Learline Jackson
Plainfield resident Learline Jackson works with at-risk youth and is contemplating leaving New Jersey due to the lack of affordable housing.
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Learline Jackson Podcast
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More [2]: Brentin Mock, “Why Can’t We Close the Racial Wealth Gap?,” Bloomberg, March 21, 2019.
Learn More [2]: Militza Pagán, “Low-Wage Workers Deserve Human Rights, Too,” Shriver Center on Poverty Law, December 14, 2017.
Learn More [2]: “How to Improve Paid Family Leave in New Jersey,” New Jersey Policy Perspective, April 27, 2017.
Learn More [2]: Sheila Reynerston, “Road to Recovery: Reforming New Jersey’s Income Tax Code,” New Jersey Policy Perspective, June 9, 2020
Learn More: “Out Of Reach,” National Low Income Housing Coalition, 2020.
Learn More [3]: Tracy Jan, “A Minimum-Wage Worker Can’t Afford a 2-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere in the U.S.,” Washington Post, June 13, 2018.
Learn More [2]: Sheila Reynerston, “Road to Recovery: Reforming New Jersey’s Income Tax Code,” New Jersey Policy Perspective, June 9, 2020
Learn More [3]: “State and Local Taxes Are Worsening Inequality,” The New York Times, July 20, 2019, sec. Opinion.
Learn More [2]: Brandon McKoy, “New Jersey’s $15 Minimum Wage Proposal,” New Jersey Policy Perspective, January 24, 2019.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Debra Gallant
Plainfield, New Jersey
August 7, 2018
Transcription by Debra Gallant
Annotations by Brandon McKoy
So– This is Debbie Galant interviewing Learline Jackson on um, August seventh, in, um, Plainfield New Jersey. So, um, first I’m going to ask you to um, to to say your name and to spell it.
Okay. Learline Jackson, L-E-A-R-L-I-N-E J-A-C-K-S-O-N.
Thank you. Um, so tell me, uh where and when you were born.
Oh my. I was born in Texas. Um, October 1951.
Okay, and where in Texas?
Um, a town called White Right about an hour from Dallas.
White Right? I–
Yes.
Okay, is that two words?
Yes.
Alright. So tell me a little bit about your childhood, what was it like?
Whoo– Okay, I grew up in the ‘60s, you know the ‘50s and the ‘60s. So you know, it was turbulent, um. Because it was during the height of racial discrimination so we had, um, we didn’t have integrated schools. I went to a little school, um, in the country and then my parents and then my parents came to New Jersey because my uncle was stationed at Camp Kilmer, so he thought they would find a better life here. So they came here, left me in Texas with my grandparents, and then they came back and got me like a couple of years later and I’ve been in New Jersey ever since.
Okay, so let’s slow down a little bit. Um, so tell me, how, you were in Texas until you were how old?
Until I was about nine years old.
Okay, so can you describe, um, what your house was like, what your neighborhood was like, what, what your childhood was like. Were you, what, what did your parents do, what was it like?
Well, when I lived in Texas I was on a farm, so there was horses and cows and hogs and chickens and also, um, my some of my other cousins stayed with my grandmother as well because their parents stayed in town, a town called Sherman, Texas. And, um, they worked, so my grandparents were our caregivers. And they kept us down on the farm with them and we went to the little country school. And we, um, helped work the farm. And that was about it. And we played a lot outside [laughs].
I was going to ask about that. Can you describe what life on the farm was like for it to be a little girl there growing up?
Well, it was fun because I didn’t know the difference [laughs]. So they had corn fields. They grew everything, my grandmother churned her butter. She, um, made all fresh food food from her garden. They had peach trees, they had apple trees, they had pear trees. They had berry bushes. So they didn’t go to the store for anything, she just made everything and they grew absolutely everything. Apple trees, everything. She made her apple pies, her apple preserves, her jelly, her butter, her everything. And we basically just had a lot of fun because we thought it was fun helping her to pick all the fruit and the berries and the corn fields– playing in the corn fields and, um, I had a lot of fun on the farm.
Tell me what it was like when your parents left and when you were staying just with your grandparents.
Well it was like, hmm– I guess because I was so young, because I was very, very young that it didn’t really affect me. And I had so many of my other cousins on the farm as well that it didn’t really affect me. And I had an aunt that she lived, she lived across the road, we called it. And I had an uncle, and he lived behind us over, really like only like three houses over on the land. And it was land that was really basically given to my grandfather because he was a sharecropper and then when the, um, owner of the land died and his son was a lawyer in California, he sold all the land to my grandfather and it just passed from one generation to the next.
So would you say that, well, what kind of life would you say it was economically? Were, were, how would you describe it?
Um, economically, it was um– rough. It was rough for them, but we didn’t understand the dynamics of it. Um, my grandmother made clothes for us, a lot of people donated things to us. My grandmother, um, and my grandfather, they worked the cotton fields. Um, sometimes they would take us the cotton fields also when we didn’t know the difference. We just thought it was fun picking cotton [laughs]. Um and um, you know, but we managed! We made it.
Okay. Um, and um, so tell me about when the decision was made that you would go to New, New Jersey, you come here to New Jersey.
Okay, so after my parents got situated um, my mom, she came back and got me. And we rode the bus, long ride, and we rode the bus back here to Jersey and I attended elementary school here, high school here, and, um, I attended Rutgers University here.
So, um which, were, were you in Plainfield or were you in another town?
I was in New Brunswick. I, I grew up in New Brunswick and they moved to Plainfield after I had became an adult and I was living in Washington DC at the time.
Okay, so growing up in New Brunswick in the second part of your childhood, um, what did your parents do, what type of house did you live in, and you know, how did, d-describe that the best you can.
Okay. My mom was a homemaker, and my dad was um, a presser. He worked at the cleaners or he pressed clothes and cleaned clothes and he worked there for many, many years. And my mom stayed home and took care of the house and cooked and cleaned and she was always there. I wasn’t a latchkey baby because she was always there when I arrived home from school. She knew what time I was supposed to be home from school and I better be home on time. And um, I grew up in a, really like a, my neighborhood was truly like a village. Like, my neighbors would chastise you if they saw you getting into something. They would confront the behavior, or they would be like “I’m gonna tell your mother.” [Laughs] So it was kinda like you couldn’t get away with a whole lot because everybody knew everybody. It was like a little circle, everybody knew everybody, everybody knew everybody’s kids, and, you know, they all went to the same church. The kids went to the same school. Matter of fact, one of the people who lived in our neighborhood was um, one of the elementary school teachers so you didn’t get away with too much of anything back then.
Do you have brothers and sisters?
I don’t, I’m an only child.
Okay. So um, describe your house a little bit–
Okay.
You know, what it looked like, and how much room you had and stuff.
Okay, we had a two-bedroom apartment. Um, and it was like a four-family house. Um. And we lived right next to a funeral parlor [laughs] and um, you know, it was a good little spot. You know. But it was a four-family house and I grew up there until I left and went away to school. And then I left and went to Washington DC and then my parents got this house.
Okay. Oh, this house?
Yeah.
Okay. Alright, let’s slow down a little bit.
Okay.
So, um, what were your expectations um, uh, in terms of, you said you went to college, to, to Rutgers–
I did.
So what were your expectations, um, and what kind of expectations did your parents have for you in terms of what your adult life would be?
Well, I guess they just expected that I would go to school, do the right thing, have children, get married, and move away. I did for a while. Then my dad, he got ill. And uh, I came back home and my dad passed away. So we took him back to Texas and buried him and I came back with my mother. And now I’m getting ready to go again.
Okay. Um. When you went to Rutgers, were you the first person in your family to go to college?
No.
No, okay. Um so. Who else had gone to college and what, what were the expectat– what did you study, what, what kind of thing did you think you would be when you grew up?
I thought I would be a teacher. I studied, um, elementary education but then I switched up to urban studies. Um. And. I was, I was more in like the social work type thing, like helping people, working with people to achieve their goals. That’s what I’ve done for the past twenty years, working with young people between the ages of sixteen and twenty-four until recently, and, um, so that was just my goal to just, help people.
You mentioned that there were other college graduates in your family?
There were two cousins, an uncle. Another cousin, she’s a pediatrician. I have another cousin who’s a registered nurse. And I have another cousin who’s a counselor in Texas.
Okay, and, um, um so your parents had not gone to college? Um, and you’re an only child and you’re going to college. Did they pay for you to go to college?
Uh, well, I got some scholarship money and I got some financial aid. And the rest of it, you know, we had to borrow in order for me to do.
Alright.
[Unclear].
So, um, and your first job was in Washington?
No.
Okay.
My first job was in New Brunswick actually. My first job was in New Brunswick and, um, then I went to Washington. I was there like, maybe about a year.
What, what was your first job? So you’ve gone from ear– education to, um, urban studies, so you know, how did you wind your way through the job world? What, what did you start doing?
Oh God. I, I started working as an administrative assistant at a cable company on Jersey Avenue. I didn’t like it. Because it just wasn’t fulfilling. Then I worked for– Oh gosh, where? A trucking company. And I worked for a real estate company. And then I ended up finally getting what I wanted to do, and that was working at Edison Job Corp.
Okay, um, but did you end up in Washington? Let’s just do that little detour for a second.
A man [laughs].
[Laughs] Okay.
So he went to Washington DC and I went to Washington DC with him.
Okay.
But I made my way back to Jersey, and then he followed me back to Jersey [laughs].
Was, was this, uh, the man you ended up with?
No.
No? Okay.
No.
Okay. So, um, you know, what were, were, were you finding as a young woman that um, you know, whatever expectations you had were being met? Was it, was it um, about, about what you expected? Was it easier or harder than you expected and?
No, I think it was pretty much about what I expected. You know, I put the work in. You know? And I did what I needed to do. So I think it wasn’t really difficult. You know, it wasn’t exactly easy, but, you know. It met my expectations.
Were you able to live on your own?
Yes.
Okay, so you had your own apartment?
I had my own apartment. I purchased two homes in, um, Missouri cause my son was out there at the time so I ended up um–
Whoa, whoa, whoa, we, we were, we were somewhere in your twenties and then all of a sudden you have a son in Missouri? How– wait–
Yeah!
Okay, wait–
No, this is long after.
Alright, let’s go slow down then–
So–
And, and tell me then what sort of– okay. So, you go to college–
I had an apartment. I had, I had–
You had a car?
I had a car.
Okay. Um–
Always had a car. My parents bought me a car when I was, when I graduated from high school so. I, I, I was never a public transportation girl [laughs].
Okay, so–
I don’t even know how!
Did you feel like you were pretty well off? Like, you were, were you able to buy what you wanted to buy, or was it hard getting by or? You know, um–
No, I, I, I would consider us middle class at the time, you know? We were able to get what we needed so um. We would take vacations and you know, kept a roof over our head, food in our mouths.
And this was when you were on your own or with your parents as well?
Both.
Both? Okay, so you would take, like, it was a standard thing for the family to go on vacations? Where did you go?
Let me see. Illinois. It was always visiting family. Um. Nothing exciting. It was like, Illinois, Texas, Oklahoma. And, you know, and. We would take road trips all the time. My dad loved to take road trips– he didn’t like to fly.
Okay, so um. So it sounds like a pretty comfortable upbringing.
Yeah, it was okay–
And so, you, then you went off on your own and you did–
Fairly well.
Fairly well. Okay. And then you um, ended up, um, back here with your parents?
Mm-hmm.
Okay, and that was– did you get married along the way or anything like that?
Mm-hmm.
Okay. Do you want to tell me anything about that at all?
It didn’t work out [laughs].
[Laughs] Okay. And, but, but you had a son.
Uh, yeah. A son and two daughters.
A son and two daughters.
Yeah.
Okay. And um, were you–
My son was in the military.
Son was in the military.
For a while.
Okay. And, um, when you were raising your family, um, you were back here in Plainfield?
New Brunswick first.
New Brunswick first.
Then Plainfield.
Okay. And so, you, you got married and lived with your husband in–
New Brunswick.
In New Brunswick.
Yeah.
Okay. For how long?
About five– eight– Maybe about ten years.
Okay.
Eight to ten years, I would say.
Okay, so tell me a little bit about that period of your life. You were raising children and working?
I worked for a while at the post office. Um.
Doing what?
Because the schedule was flexible, the mail room, ‘cause the schedule was very flexible for me at the time with a young child. And then my husband worked. And then, I guess, maybe like about– and my mom, she helped me care for my son because she was still living in New Brunswick at the time before coming here. And then I stopped working, and he then continued working. And then I left New Brunswick and came to Plainfield.
Okay. And was that a result of your marriage breaking up? That you came here?
No.
No. Okay, so you came here with your husband?
And then we broke up.
And then you broke up. Okay, then, and that was in the house we’re in right now, 320 Halls– 329 Halls Street.
329 Halls Street. No, I was in an apartment first.
Okay.
And then I came here.
Alright, so, uh–
Cause it’s a two-family house.
So.
So I was upstairs and they were downstairs.
Oh! Okay, so you were in the apartment upstairs. Okay. Um, alright, um, so what was that like? What was– your mother, was your father passed away?
No, my father was still alive. It was, It was my support system, you know? They were very helpful. I was able to work, I didn’t have to worry about my children getting to school, getting home from school, I knew that they would be safe. You know, that they would be fed, that they would get their homeworks, so. You know, it was my support system because I was a single parent at the time.
Okay. And um, what, you know, can you give me a slice of life from that period of your life with your parents and raising chil– young children?
It was– it was good! Because it was a family neighborhood. All our kids grew up together, they, they knew each other– again, it was kind of like my village. Um, I mean we knew everybody in the neighborhood. And everybody knew everybody. So we would have, like, um block parties. We had cookouts, it would be in somebody’s backyard, everybody would come, bring a dish. Sometimes we would get, um, a permit from the city to block a street off. We would just have games and everything for the kids and all food all everywhere and people would just come from everywhere and we would hang out and party. And, you know. Network. So it was good. My, my growing up was good. Not like today’s kids.
Mm-hmm.
Not like today’s kids.
Mm-hmm. Alright. You want to tell me more about today’s kids, what you feel about that?
Mm-hmm– They’re too violent. Um. I think they didn’t get the same nourishment. Um. A lot of young people today, they raise themselves. Uh, a lot of them come from dysfunctional backgrounds. Not to say that they didn’t exist back then, but it’s like so prevalent now. Drugs. You know, drugs came to town so.
Mm-hmm.
And so there went the neighborhood pretty much.
But when you were a young mother and raising children in this house or upstairs um, um, with your, with your folks–
Mm-hmm.
It was–
It was.
Lots of network, and–?
It was. And I kept my son off the corners [laughs]. They used to call me the crazy lady because I kept him off those corners because I knew there was nothing but trouble. So, and he ended up going in the military, getting a good job. And doing good.
So, tell me about the job that you had for most of your adult like, the–
Working at the, I worked at a residential facility where we worked with students between the ages of sixteen and twenty-four, and most of them came from, like, at risk– most of them were at risk youth. Um. But because we were an advanced training center, they came from all over the country, so we got kids that came from Hawaii, Alaska, Ohio, Colorado, Texas, so.. You name it, they came.
Who ran this and, and what were they trained to do?
Well– At the time I worked for them, initially when I came to work it was ran by ITT. Then when ITT lost the contract, um– I was asked to come to Connecticut with them to open a new program so that’s what I did. And I stayed there for a, a couple of years to get the center up and running, and then I came back to New Jersey. And, um, started back working for the new contractors which was ResCare. And ResCare had that contract from ‘95 until– 2018. So they just lost the contract in June.
Tell me a little bit about what your role was, what was it like.
Well, I started out as the assistant CSO, and basically what we dealt with was the discipline. Um..
What does CSO stand for?
It stands for Center Standards Officer.
Okay.
And we basically, our department basically set the standards for the center. So what we did was handle all the discipline whenever the students didn’t do what they were supposed to do. We had to meet with them. Um, deal out different sanctions. Sometimes they would go to what we call the center review board and um. Sometimes students would get terminated based on the severity of their infractions. There was a zero tolerance policy for violence and drugs so. You fight, you assault sometime, you were automatically terminated from the program. So um– You had drugs in your system, you were terminated from the program. But the only difference from that is you got went, cleaned yourself up, got your act together, and you wanted to reapply for the program, you were given that option. Um. And basically, you know, that was it, but what they did was always redirecting behavior because we understood the kind of students that we were dealing with. That, and the background they came from so. They brought a lot of baggage with them, so we had to try and help them through that baggage.
Where was this?
In Edison. On Plainfield Ave, in Edison.
And um, how did students get selected for this program?
Well, the process was um– We had what we called ‘recruiters’ and the students would meet with the recruiter. They would bring certain paperwork um, your transcripts from High school, your medical records, your income. And um– Then they would interview the students and then based on that um, they would get to be selected to come into the program. Everybody that applied wasn’t selected because sometimes if they had like, a criminal, criminal record, that would hinder them from coming into the program, or if they were presently on probation, parole, that type of thing would hinder them from coming into the program. But the majority of the students, they were selected when they applied.
So who– I know you mentioned the contractors, that they were running it, but who– was this a federal government program or?
It’s a um, a contractual program and the government allocates the funds.
But–
The Department of Labor.
The US Department of Labor?
Yes.
Okay. And, and the name of the academy again?
Edison Job Corp.
Edison Job Corp.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. And, and it, and it recruited people who were at risk youth um, from all over the country–
All over the country.
And um. And uh, and what did it train them to do?
Whew. Okay. First, it would help them get, if they didn’t have a GED or a high school diploma, they had a learning center for that. Then they had another section of the center which was for trades. We had culinary arts, we had some, um, medical. Some of the students went on to be LPNs, RNs. We had automotive. Um. Let’s see. We had A plus.
What’s A plus?
That’s um, when the, when students deal with the, the computers. That’s all the technology with the computers. They build computers, they help. They work with the help desk and so– I’m not really computer savvy [laughs]. But um– Those were the students that, you know, deal, deal, deal with the computers. Then we had carpentry. We had um, break. And– Maintenance. So a lot of them, they would learn trades where they could be, like if you wanted to be a, a apartment supervisor or maintenance, they would give you all the skills you needed to tackle that.
How big was this program? How many people would be in it at one time?
Well, initially when I first started working there, we had, um, a OBS of 530. Sometimes we would get as high as six hundred kids. Six hundred students in the program. But then the Department of Labor lowered the OBS.
What does OBS stand for?
That stands for, um, “On Board Strength”. Like how many students that we have on board. And. But a lot of centers weren’t able to maintain the amount of students that they were supposed to keep in the program so they lowered the OBS and the OBS went down to four hundred seventeen. That was the last count we had, was four hundred seventeen.
Now, in your job was that a, uh, that you, you, did you have to spend the nights there at all or?
Well, it was open seven days a week, twenty-four hours, I mean–
[Laughs].
Twenty-four hours a day, and they had security. We had security on center. Um. We had residential advisors– I also was a residential advisor at one point. So we had residential advisors on center and they would monitor the dorms to make sure that it was a safe and secure environment, that did their details. They had to keep their rooms clean. Uh. They had to keep the common areas clean. Um. It had a cafeteria– it had a beautiful cafeteria, and some of the students would help work in the cafeteria, like serve, you know, their peers and things like that. But yeah, dorms were open twenty-four seven, but if it was like a holiday and a lot of the students like, and there were no classes, the dorm would be open in the morning, the afternoon, and overnight, but when they had classes during the week it would be only afternoon and overnight because they would be in their classes during the day.
And you worked in the dorms?
I did work in the dorms as well. My favorite job.
So, tell me um. Now did, did um– [sighs]. Can you d-describe, like was your job a managerial job, did you supervise other employees?
No, I was a supervisor when I was in the CSO department, but then once they lowered the OBS, there were two of us– my manager and me, the supervisor. But once they lowered the OBS they phased out that position , so that’s how I ended up going to the dormitory. Because I had two options and that, that was the option I chose because it would give me hands on with the students. I would get to interact with them, and you know. We talked, we laughed, we cried so. That was my favorite part of the job.
So it sounds like this was a good job that you liked.
I loved it. I worked in the female and we also had two male dorms, but I worked in the female dorm and I worked in the honors dorm. And to be in the honors dorms, it was certain criteria. Like, you had to like, you– not have a lot of write ups in your folders. Case notes, what we call case notes for when the students weren’t doing what they were supposed to be doing and you have to confront them more than once, then you start documenting it. And it would go in the system– I’m sorry– and it would go in the system and everybody could, like, see it. Like if I wanted to see how one of my students, ‘cause we all had a case-load. And if I wanted to see how one of my students were doing in the program overall, I could just pull it up in the system, and it would show me every write up they got, every infraction they got. Um. how close they are to getting their GED, how close they are to completing the program. So it was kind of like um. I could tell them it was kind of like the Bible. You know. It like, documented everything.
Are you still in touch with any of the students that you supervised?
Yeah [laughs]. Even a couple years later I still have students call me. They had me get a Facebook. I was like “I don’t have a Facebook!” They like “You have to get a Facebook!” [Laughs] So I finally got a Facebook. So yes, I still hear from students. They’re in California, they’re in Texas. Um, one invited me to her wedding next year in the Virgin Islands, so yeah, you build a rapport with them and you know, when you make an impact on somebody’s life, you know. They kind of like remember that. So it’s not like a whole bunch of them keep in contact with you, but those that had that connection with you, they keep in touch forever.
Was it also a good living? Did you make a good amount of money, and, and–
It was decent. I couldn’t get rich [laughs]. Couldn’t get rich. But yeah, I was, I was able to pay my bills and get a car and do some things and travel about if I choose to.
So tell me about that, cause you said growing up you only got to visit relatives. Did you get to go on uh, more exotic vacations?
I still didn’t cause. I’m– a lot of people like that, but I’m not really into exotic vacations. I don’t really like traveling outside of the country. Um. But I did go to some places. I went to um California. Um. Where else did we go? We went to Canada. And that was about it. I was supposed to go to Jamaica but I never made it. Um. And now I do have a passport. And um. I’m scheduled to go on a cruise so.
You’re goin’ on a cruise!
Yeah, we’re gonna go on a cruise. We’re working on going on a cruise next year.
Okay, alright. Um. So, you were able to call it a good, would you call it a middle class life?
Decent.
Decent.
We had a decent life.
Mm-hmm.
You know? I was able to maintain. And um, now I’m just ready to leave New Jersey and– you know. Look towards new beginnings.
So that was uh, when we had, uh, done our pre-interview, um, you had told me that you can’t afford this anymore. Can, can you talk about that some more? Talk about the, the job. What happened in terms of the contractors.
What, what happened in terms of the contract um, new contractors came in and they had different stipulations and so since I was that close to retirement, I took the option to retire. They told us we would get a severance pay, we would be able to collect unemployment and that worked out great for me. Because my goal was to leave next year to go to North Carolina. That was my game plan. So I just had to. You know. Speed ahead [laughs].
So you had to finish working a little sooner than you expected.
I had planned on working– my goal was May 2019 so I was still, stacking cash, I was still trying to get my funds together and when this happened I was like hmm. So I’m debating on whether I want to rent, rent the house out and use it as, um, rental property or whether I want to sell the house and just go to North Carolina and purchase another house or if I don’t want to purchase another house. Um. I’m still undecided in that part.
Do you, you were talking about how at this age you can’t find more work anymore. Was that something that you even considered, finding another job?
Not right now [laughs]. I, I may work. I may work. But if I do work, it will be part time. Because I don’t want my whole day taken up with working for someone else. I’ve been working for forty something years and it’s like. It’s time for me. So I don’t wanna just sit around and do nothing either. I don’t want to be one of those people who retire and just sit around and do nothing so. I’m still healthy, you know, I’m still active so. I’ll find something to entertain me.
Now, um you– has your unemployment started?
It just started.
So how is it, are you able to, um, you know, pay for what you need to pay for now?
Yeah, cause I also have my social security comin’ in. My mom, she has her social security, and I have rental income.
Okay, so um, so would you say that you’re struggling economically at all?
Not yet! [Laughs].
Not yet?
Not yet!
What do you mean by “not yet”?
Not yet because I still have, you know, monies coming in so. As long as my funds keep flowin’ in I'll be fine.
Okay. Now, North Carolina. Why North Carolina?
Well, my son is there. Him and his wife just had a house built and um, two of my grandchildren are there, two of them are here. And um. So I went to North Carolina and I, I like North Carolina. The cost of living is much cheaper. Um. It just seemed like a totally different atmosphere.
Where in North Carolina is he?
It’s right outside of Charlotte in a town called Gastonia. So.
So is, is New Jersey too expensive to live in as somebody who’s retired do you think?
I think if you retire and you remain in New Jersey, the struggle is real. It will definitely be a struggle. I’ve seen so many elderly people lose their homes. Um. Most of them end up in senior citizen builds and. Then it just seems like you retire, you get old, and you die. No. I don’t want to go down that path. So. Um. Living in New Jersey is just tough. New Jersey is very expensive. There’s taxes on your homes, you know, some people have lost their homes because they couldn’t afford to pay their taxes. You know, you have a home for twenty-five, thirty, forty years and then you lose it because you can’t afford to pay the taxes because the taxes are astronomical.
What kind of, what are your taxes?
Almost ten grand.
What were they when your parents first moved here? Do you have any idea?
Oh my God. Um, like almost nothing. Um. I got this house from my parents. When my parents purchased this house they paid 26,000 dollars for it back in 1977. And I was looking at my old paperwork, um, I have a little screenhouse in the back that my students built for me, and I was looking at some old paperwork and their mortgage was not even like 300 dollars.
Wow.
And now the mortgage is like sixteen, sixteen hundred.
That’s what you pay?
A little over sixteen hundred a month. Because I refinanced though.
Right, I was gonna ask about that.
[Laughs].
So if they owned the house and it was so much how–
I refinanced.
Can you explain that?
It needed some work done. You know, we needed to get a roof, we got the aluminum siding. You know, because it was an old house. So it needed some work done. So you know, we needed to refinance to get the work done.
Um. And did you know people personally because of people who’ve lost their home because of the property taxes?
Oh yeah.
So what happens? Do they, do they uh–
Well I know one, he, he went to Georgia with his um, son and daughter-in-law. He had to end up going with them because he couldn’t live on his own because it was just too much. And um. After his wife died, after his wife passed away, um, he wasn’t able to maintain you know, the same life-style. Um. Income change, you know your health change. And he ended up going to Georgia.
So North Carolina is gonna get Learline.
North Carolina is gonna Learline. I have friends already down there that left New Jersey. I have two, I have a girlfriend that left and went to Georgia, Alfereda. And I have another girlfriend left, she went to Concord. She the one been pressuring me to come to North Carolina. She’s one of my best friends. She lived in Jersey. And her mom sold her house in Piscataway and she moved to South Carolina. My neighbors who used to live next door? They moved to North Carolina.
So what do you think it’ll– wha– what it the total to live here and what all total do you think it will cost to live in North Carolina?
Mm-hmm. Let’s see. Probably cost half to live in North Carolina what it costs to live here, that’s for sure. Um. I know I’m not gonna pay sixteen hundred dollars a month mortgage. Um, I’ve been shopping around, looking at houses, and I’ve also been looking at apartments. And um, even with the, you know I get my 401K and things like that I haven’t touched any of it. Right now I haven’t had to, praise God. Um. And I just think I’ll be able to go down there and I’ll be able to live much better than here.
Mm-hmm.
At least financially, you know, financially I won’t struggle as much. Because I know I’m going to struggle here. You know, my mom is like eighty-six years old.
Your mom lives here with you?
Yeah. Eighty-six years old so, you know. And she wants to go too. You know, she’s like been pressuring me too. She’s like, “how long’s it gonna take?” And I’m like I got things to do, I gotta clean the house out, I gotta clean the basement out. But, you know. She, she wants to leave too.
What do you think the problem is with New Jersey?
Rents are outrageous. Like, the average person can’t. To live in a decent place in New Jersey, you’re gonna pay anywhere between fifteen, eighteen hundred dollars a month. That’s ridiculous. The average person cannot afford that with all the other expenses that they have. Um. The taxes. Outrageous. Car insurance, way too much. Um. I mean, everything else is pretty compatible. You know, like everything else across the country as far as when you talk about, like, food, clothing, different things like that. But when it comes to rent, car insurance, property taxes, New Jersey is the worst. They tax you on everything. Like, we have something here called PNUA. Public Municipality something. Authority. For garbage and sewer, I pay over five hundred dollars every three months. And if you don’t pay it, they put a lien on your property.
You don’t have a lien on your property though.
[Laughs] No, I do not.
Um, so, are there things that you are not able to do because of this high cost of living here? Are there things that you would want that you can’t have?
Uh, would want a new car. I have a 2011, Honda Accord – uh no – Honda CRV. I would like a new car and that ain’t happening. Um, I would like to you know do some upgrades in the house and that not happening. Because I can’t afford it. I have to hold on to all my monies because I have to make sure that everything I need to pay gets paid in order to maintain, you know, a pretty decent lifestyle, you know. I’m able to pay my bills now. I’m able to keep food in the refrigerator. I’m able to keep gas in my car. You know, but other than that there's not a whole lot more than you can do.
Are you able to go out to meals or go to movies or?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Movie’s outrageous here too. My daughter and I went to the movies last– I mean my granddaughter and I went to the movies last weekend– twenty-five bucks. And I’m like “Oh my god!” [Laughs] It had been a while since I had been to the movies and was like, in shock. Yeah it’s expensive in Jersey. It really is.
Um, you know I’m thinking about the fact that your family moved from Texas to New Jersey for opportunity, and now you’re planning to move to North Carolina.
“For opportunity,” [laughs].
Can you talk about that? About– I mean do you think your parents would have liked to stay in Texas, or would you like to stay, would you like to have stayed in Jersey if it weren't so expensive?
Yeah, if Jersey wasn't so expensive. You know, I would stay in Jersey. Um, it’s the cost of living that's running me up out of here. Nothing else. You know Jersey’s been good to me. You know I’m not gonna lie Jersey’s been good to me. Um, you know I just can’t see me staying here much longer.
Okay.
It’s just becoming unaffordable. Yeah, and my parents, I think now that they would have liked to stay in Texas. I, I don't particularly care for Texas. At least not the part I came from. You know, I don’t, it’s still kinda backwards [laughs]. People still don’t, they don’t get along very well. But Jersey, I found Jersey, I like Jersey, um, because it’s so diverse, you know, so I like that part about Jersey. Diversity. And, um, when I was younger, I don’t hang out in New York anymore, but when I was at younger, like New York used to be my stomping ground. You know I used to go to New York every weekend. I was in New York ‘cause I like the city and it was just so much to do and you know and the people were like, so friendly but now, now no. People’s whole attitudes have changed. I think about life and about each other.
In New York you mean?
All over.
Hmm.
All over pretty much. People just, I don’t know maybe people just stressed all the time. I don’t know what’s going on, but people don’t seem to be very nice to each other anymore.
Were you able to give your children the life you wanted them to have?
No, I would have liked them to have more than I was able to give them but, um, they did pretty well. You know. They were the first one of their group to get a car. I was in a position where each one of them could get a car when they were younger, but then my children, I don’t know if it was me or just came automatically, they had good work ethics early on so cause they always wanted their own money. Like they would babysit, my son, he would cut grass, shovel snow, cause they always wanted to have they own money so they started working really early.
Did they go to college?
My son did. Um, and my oldest daughter, she went, then she left. Now she's back. Um, my youngest daughter no. She, um, decided she wanted to get her CDL ‘cause she wants to be a driver, so she wants to drive buses and things. But I’m, I talked her out of driving the big rigs [laughs].
Wow. Wow why did she want to drive the big rigs?
I don’t know. She just like to drive. She likes to drive everything. But I’m like no you can't drive across the country [laughs].
So, just uh, tell me who lives in this house now.
Now it's just basically me and my mother, and my oldest daughter just came back so she can, um, get her monies together, but she’s the one that um, she likes to shop too much that’s one thing. But she came to get her monies together cause she’s gonna get her, um, another apartment. And my youngest daughter her son is here right now because they’re leaving Wednesday night, um, to meet up with my son in Trenton. He’s flying in from North Carolina and he's gonna drive her and her son back to North Carolina ‘cause she’s moving to North Carolina.
Ah-ha. So there’s been a lot of back and forth it sounds like.
Yes.
Different people.
Yes. So my son will be here Thursday, he’s driving her and her son down they’re gonna stay with him and she’s gonna look for a place and get a job and get situated down there.
So is your, your grand– are your grandchildren just visiting now?
Well, my granddaughter’s visiting me from West Orange, lives in West Orange. And, um, but my daughter and my other grandson they’ll be leaving thursday.
Mm-hmm. Alright any–
So I got the house full right now [laughs].
Any, any final thoughts about this whole idea of, of economic struggle in New Jersey?
Well, I just, I hope it gets better, and maybe they need to up the income so the income can offset some of the expenses because I always thought that, um, when you went down South, the, you know, the salaries would be so much cheaper but I find that the salaries are not that much different than the salaries up here but the cost of living is much less. Like, my son had a brand new house built from the ground for like $155,000, like three bedrooms, the master bedroom, you know, it’s a beautiful house and I’m like you could never get that in New Jersey, never ever ever. So, um, cause he was in Missouri at first but he didn’t like Missouri so he ended up in North Carolina, because he worked for Fords at the time and, um, but I just think that living in New Jersey if New Jersey don't step up they’re gonna lose a lot more people ‘cause I see people leaving here in droves.
Wow. And how much did you make? What was your salary before you were laid off? Like you were laid off when, exactly?
Umm, August– August, listen to me– June thirtieth. Um, I was able together with everything like maybe like about forty-eight. Yeah.
And how much will you make with the social security unemployment? What does that turn out to be now?
Um, well let me see. It’s like, fourteen? No, like thirteen-fifty, I’m getting fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, about eighteen, nineteen hundred a month.
Eighteen, nineteen hundred a month.
Yeah.
And you were making 48,000 a year, or forty-eight hundred a month, which was it?
A year. Yearly.
Okay. So, like about four thousand a month. So it’s about half.
Mm-hmm. A little less. So.
Have you felt a pinch of that yet?
Not yet. Not Yet. ‘Cause we always had like the rental income to offset it and um, so that like helped me a lot with my rental income that pays my mortgage. So all my other income that took care of everything else. And I was still able to, you know, keep putting money back over the years so I was able to save a few pennies over the years you know. ‘Cause I’ve never been like “spend spend spend spend spend”. I spend it when I need to. If it’s something I have to get. I’m just not one of those persons that’s always in the store spending on everything I see. I get what I need when I need it. And that’s how I survive.
And when you go to North Carolina, how do you think you’ll feel?
Like feel from leaving New Jersey? [laughs]
Well, either that or just economically, or just will it be a luxury will you feel like a, uh–
I think I will be able to maintain better. I’ll be able to maintain better. I mean, I been looking at houses and everything down there and, um, for a house you put twenty-percent down like you put 30,000 down on a house and your mortgage is like four-hundred-something dollars a month, you know and then your taxes are like little to nothing, your homeowners insurance little to nothing, you know. Never could you do that in Jersey. Never. I wouldn’t care if you put half down you know. Jersey houses are very expensive too.
Yeah. What do houses go for around here? This street.
Uh, they been selling for in the two hundreds. I think the girl across the street just sold hers for like two-twenty-seven. So I’m looking between like two-fifty and up. Yeah. Especially the two families. They really sell. They sell quick.
Alright. Thank you so much for your time and–
You’re so welcome [laughs].
Alright, take care.
You as well.