Susan Waldman is an avid writer who has written letters to local newspapers. She is an activist who is involved in politics and organizing. She joined NOW several decades ago and has held several important titles in the organization.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Vishwa Bhatt

August 13, 2020

Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn and Anjali Mehrotra

[Note on COVID-19: Due to strict social distancing guidelines, this interview was hosted as a phone call and recorded using a mobile application.]

(00:00:00)

Okay, I’m recording.

Okay, I see where that is at the bottom--oops! Where’d I go? (rustling) (silence) Okay.

Okay, this is cool. (pause) Okay, I’m pulling up the questions… (pause) (scuffling) (pause) (click) (pause) Alright, so I guess we can start at (laughs) the beginning. So, can you tell me a bit about your background? Where you were born? Where you went to school, your family?

Okay. Well, my claim to fame is that I was born in the Bronx.

Wow!

So I like to tell people that I have New York blood.

(laughs)

I moved to New Jersey when I was 2.

Okay.

And the rest of my life was, uh, was in New Jersey except for when I went away to college and uh, after I got married. But--no, that’s not true. I was still in New Jersey, so that part is still the same. I grew up in a town called Fair Lawn, which is in Bergen County, about 12 miles due west of New York City. So I was in New York City a lot as a kid ‘cause my mother worked in the city and my father did some of his work in the city. And uh. So. I love New York City. It’s great. So, um… Well, I graduated from high school and then I went to college. I started, I went for a year to the University of Toledo, ‘cause I was interested in studying Chemistry. And then I transferred out and I--the rest of my years were at Brandeis. And the first year there was very traumatic for me and uh, my grand--my grandfather died right after the beginning of the school year. And um., it turned out the course that I had to take, that -- I had done really well at Toledo, um, and then the course I took, Organic Chemistry, was, I found out that they said it was the hardest class in the (laughs) at Brandeis.

Oh my gosh!

And so I was emotionally not good, and so I actually flunked. I couldn’t study. I couldn’t, I, I had a problem with spatial things, that comes from my childhood and I couldn’t see and I didn’t get glasses ‘til the fourth grade.

Oh…

We didn’t realize that I couldn’t see. Although they always put me in the front of, like, of the room for school. But anyway, okay. So, um. I ended up as an English major. And as it turns out, I do a lot of writing. I do the newsletter for the chapter.

(00:03:02)

Mhm hmm.

And I’ve been doing that for years. Um. And I, I--pulled out a lot of stuff like (scuffling) And I have (scuffling) this file…which has  (pause) 

(surprised gasp)

Many, many, many letters to the editor. First letter to the editor I had published was in 1974.

Wow!

And I have, lots of -- lately, I used to have a lot of stuff in the Star Ledger. But, uh, they cut back on their letters. And I can’t seem to write anything that pleases them. But I have had this, in August I had two letters in the, uh, Daily Record of Morris County. It’s Morris County but it’s also, um… Asbury Park Press. And it turns out, because one of my letters was sort of an anti-Republican letter… (inaudible, overlaps)

(laughs)

And uh. It was--we got a call from a cousin--my husband’s cousin who lives in, right now he lives in Hackensack, which is also Bergen County. And he said, he said “Susan had a letter in the paper!” And I thought “What the heck is he doing reading The Daily Record?”

(laughs)

But it turns out they put it in the Bergen Record. It was in there. And I couldn’t, I tried to access that on-online and I couldn’t find it. I thought that was really exciting, that my letter was in the Bergen Record.

Yeah. 

So, um. So I’ve done a lot of writing. And then also, I-I searched all over for a file, and, uh, (static) Because, because of all the things that I used to send to the Daily Record, I, I got called to be… an opinion shaper!

Oh, cool!

So that was in 1997. And it meant that I had to write, uh, four columns over the course of that year.

Mhm hmm.

That would be on the Opinion Page. And, um… And I got paid! I got 50 dollars for each one. And I have them--I’ll just tell you what the subjects were, um. I don’t think this was the first one--goes with all that… I was probably going in the opposite direction. Um.. (pause) (shuffling) (inaudible) (shuffling) August, here’s the first one, I guess - it’s February, and the title they gave--’cause they - you’re not allowed to give it your own title. The title was “Boys Will Be Boys.”

Oh.

We shouldn’t let them! And, uh. Anyway, I don’t even remember, you know. I’d have to really read them. I don’t remember what--The second one was, um…. Was about the national--NOW National had a conference, which I guess must have been in 1996.

(00:06:10)

Yeah, it was the anniversary of the, um, Declaration of Sentiments that, that uh, um, from Seneca Falls. 

Yeah.

that Elizabeth Cady Stanton ran. And, um. We’d been trying to get the Equal Rights Amendment passed for a long, long time.

Right.

And so, NOW came up with an idea of instead of calling it the ERA, they called it the CEA, which was, um, the “Constitutional Equality Amendment.”

Oooh.

There was a thought we would just start over. And uh, whereas the ERA is very short, it’s like three sentences.

Mhm hmm.

The CEA was a whole big thing, whole long thing in, included every kind of thing that women would want.

Mhm hmm.

And so, um… National asked people to try to publicize that CEA. So I did my, one of my opinion shapers on that. And, uh, what did they title that? Let’s see… (pause) if I can find that (pause) Oh, (inaudible) they titled it “US Needs New Equal Rights Amendment for Women.” And a lot of times I would get pushback, you know - people would write letters, you know, knocking what I said. So, but that’s the, uh, you have to expect that.

Right, right.

So, let’s see the third one was in August. (pause) (scuffling) And--let’s see, where is it? (pause) I have all these clippings because some of it--clippings of the things that people wrote if they didn’t like what I said… (pause) (scuffling) (mumbling) Must have been about religion--oh yeah, it was. I, um. I decided that I was really a humanist.

Mhm hmm.

Instead of um--I’m Jewish by religion. And, but it seemed to me that humanism was really a good, a good way to go. So, my third one was called “Secular Humanism: What Could Be Bad?” And the first line was “Eureka! I’ve found it!” And uh, I’ll just read you the first paragraph.

(00:08:43)

“It is July 1993, and I am attending the Annual National Organization for Women Conference in Boston. The Humanist Association of Massachusetts has an information table from which I pick up several magazines and brochures. After reading through various articles and the Humanist Manifesto 1 and 2, it is clear that Humanist beliefs are closest to my own.”

And, um, here’s the, it says:

“Here is a philosophy that says, we try first of all to be thoughtful and caring human beings. What could be wrong with that?”

You know, and so there’s no misogyny. There’s no hatred. You’re not saying that - that everyone else is gonna go to hell because they don’t believe in it. So that was - and the, the last one was, would be this one. And that was in November of the, ‘97. And it was about the Promise Keepers. And the headline was “Promise Keepers: A Group We Should Watch”. Have you ever heard of the Promise Keepers?

No, I have not.

They kind of died down. It was a men’s organization. And uh, it was sort of like keep women, uh, barefoot and pregnant. Um… (pause) Um… (pause) Okay, here’s the, here’s the--here’s how it starts. It says:

“What do the following quotations have in common?

Quote: ‘Yo bitches, I just don’t understand why you don’t get it, but we just want to respect you!’ Unquote.

The second one is, ‘any Christian man will tell you, that the two greatest things that have happened to him are his God and his wife.’

Give up? They are both the words of Promise Keepers.”

So, um… Then I - I talked about this event. They had an event in Washington D.C. called “Stand in the Gap”, and I have a book from that. And, um, they, they just… they don’t want women to have any rights, that’s the thing. So, um. And I - I had a really fun time there. They-- they were in this area that’s set aside for demonstrations. Pretty much right outside Union Station in Washington D.C. And so there were a few of us that went. And so I walked around, and I, uh, basically argued with people! 

(laughs)

And their favorite thing would be, um, I would ask them, you know, “Why this?” And they would always say “Oh, the Bible says--” (laptop dings) That’s my favorite thing. 

Mhm hmm.

“The Bible says--” Well first the Bible says a lot of things! Many of them are contradicting! (laptop dings) You know, and they also would have slavery in the Bible! Does that mean that we should have, do that? Should, should everybody not eat pork?  You know, there’s a lot of things in the Bible that - that they ignore! They ignore. So, anyway.

(00:12:00)

And later on, at a later date, they had an event in - in New Jersey. In Giant’s Stadium, which is now called, I forget now(inaudible). Um. So. Several of us went.

Mhm hmm.

Drove, and one of the women was a, um, a minister. I forget, she was a member of our chapter. And uh, she had, she moved, I think, she moved to Washington D.C. Years ago--this is a long time ago. And, um. So, and she knew the Bible--I mean, she was… Every verse! 

(laughs)

You know, she was really good! And so. We would, we would, and they had the protestors, huh, they had us like in a cage! We were--we weren’t allowed to walk around too much. And, uh. As I, as I recall anyway. So we would have talks with these men. And… (pause)

And they would say something about the Bible and of course she was, she could tell them what the true thing was--you know, like, she was great. So, and then they-they were really nice! They had a-they got box lunches. They, all the, you know--and they gave us all each a lunch. And they were really nice. So the lunch was, um. I think it was a little, like a salad thing maybe, and a fruit cup and a container of chicken salad.

Mhm hmm.

And a roll. Cookie. Right? So my favorite part was--and I still have it, I have a big file downstairs just on the Promise Keepers. And there was a sticker on the, on the cover of the, the boxes. And it said--and it, it says, uh, “Put--” “Put the chick--” Sort of like, “Place the chicken salad on the roll.” And I thought “How dumb do they think these people are?”

(laughs)

That you have to tell them that they’re supposed to put the chicken salad on the roll to make a sandwich? I’m like--so, I--that was one, I--that was one of the best parts! I also, in the same area, um, the Pope came! The Pope visited the United States. And he had a big rally also at Giants Stadium. And so a bunch of us went to picket. We called it “Picket the Pope!”

(laughs)

And the signs--I don’t remember what my sign was, but, uh - there, they made us stay… Off of, off of route 3. This place, that was kind of muddy, I guess it had rained. And we were quite a ways from the actual stadium.

(00:15:02)

Not like, it was--we were right, you know, on the outer part. This was, you know, before. And, um. I must have a couple of pictures or something from that, but that was kind of fun, you know. To picket the Pope. 

So. I can tell you… Um--oh, what was my family like? You don’t wanna know. I’m an only child. And, um. My parents were very, very critical, which made me very critical. And, uh. I was just a, I just recently attended a webinar about trauma and they talked about traumatic things that happen to children. And even--I can’t find my notes, I was trying to find my notes yesterday. I have piles of paper. Um. But there were, ACE, but I can’t remember what that stands for. something Childhood, maybe Acute Childhood Experiences or something like that. And they were talking about all these things, these traumas that happen to children. And I thought “This sounds like the story of my life!”

(laughs)  So I-I had a--it was not easy growing up. And, um, I think my mother was um, bipolar. But she, they never--she was never treated. They treated me instead. They, I mean. I have a story. People tell me I should be a stand-up comedian, that I have talent (laughs) Um. ‘Cause I could tell stories of things. Like when I graduated from college, I went back to live at home. And uh, they decided that I needed to go to a psychologist. So I’m “okay”, you know. Always if my mother was having problems, they’d send me to the doctor. Really weird. So, um. Anyway, I was going to the psychologist right in Fair Lawn, right in town, not far from where I lived. And. It turned out that she told my parents that I--From what I understand from watching television and reading books, there’s a, a, a, uh, patient-client confidentiality thing?

Mhm hmm.

But she told my parents that I hated my mother. Now, do you think that went over well? (pause) No! It didn’t go over well at all. And they confronted me! And they got it to--let’s see… They were yelling about the fact that it was costing them a lot of money to send me to this woman..

Mhm hmm.

Which (computer dings) I never asked for! I didn’t want it! 

Yeah.

And they’re blaming me because they were, they were paying all this money for this and, and (computer dings) what came out was that I hate my mother. So. That’s just a small sample.

(00:18:00)

Mhm hmm.

Of what growing up was like. And here I was an adult--! I had already graduated from college.

Right.

So. Anyway. Well, that’s enough about my family.

(laughs)

“What brought you into politics and organizing?”

Yeah…

Um. I think, the main issue for me was, was abortion. And I had no reason to, to - to make that my issue. I could never get pregnant, which I think is partially because of my mother. She blamed everything that was ever wrong with her, was because of giving birth to me. That was her--it ruined her whole life. She even told me once that when she got pregnant, her boss offered to get her an abortion. And this was like in the 1940s, waaay before you were allowed to get an abortion legally.

Yeah.

So. Um. (pause) Anyway. Um. Where was I, where am I now? I lost my train of thought… Okay, so I could never have children. We tried, you know, we got married, we were--we said “Let’s wait” and then I was on the pill for--and I had a lot of problems, I have a--I’m hormone challenged right off the bat. I, I…. just really bad. And I was going to doctors because my period would come and then six months later--I would have nothing for six months, and then I would hemorrhage.

Oh my.

It was like, I would turn green. (chuckles) The blood was all leaving, I mean it was really bad.

Oh.

Um. Then--then I was on the pill, which--which actually made me regular. So we decided we wanted to try and get pregnant so I stopped the pill and then tried for a while and nothing happened. And, uh… And then I--so I went to fertility doctors. And I was taking uh, at first I took something called Clomid. And I had to take my temperature every morning.

Mhm hmm.

To see if, because that’s how they see if you ovulate--your temperature spikes.

Oh, okay. Every morning before you get out of bed, you have a special thermometer. And, uh. And you know, nothing ever happened, that's--and then they gave me this other drug which you had to go for shots.

Mhm hmm.

And it was actually sort of illegal in the--was being smuggled in from Israel.

Oh!

And my doctor--I used to go to New York for the doctor. And he was an Israeli. And he would get the stuff and I would get the shots. And, uh, one time I ovulated, and he got all excited. He said “Oh, they’re gonna put you in medical books!”

(laughs)

(laughs) I still-- I never got pregnant. So now we decided to adopt. So we went through the whole cycle and my husband had a cousin, a woman who was in--an obstetrician gynecologist. 

(00:21:04)

Mhm hmm.

And she thought that, uh, she might be able to help us adopt through an agency in New York. Because she, um… she would offer them--she would give them babies that women, you know,. she would be their doctor and the women didn’t want to keep the baby. And so she had this liaison with this adoption agency. So she thought that if we went there that, you know -  that we would, she would be able to expedite it. So we went through the whole, the whole thing. It was 1969. And, uh, we finished all the home visits, the whole, you know. everything that they do, you know. They want to know everything about you, of course they don’t want to place a baby in a dangerous home. And, uh. So we finished that in September. And they said “it’ll probably be about a year and half.”

Mhm hmm.

Before there was a baby. So, you know. I guess based on a waiting list or whatever. So. You know, we went along. We-we bought a house, and uh. But they weren’t building it yet--there was a problem with the town. And the house we bought in 1967 in the summer. And so here it is now. You know, fall--summer, summer of 1969. And, uh. The house was built! And we were gonna move in in November. And, you know, I was working in, right where we lived in Passaic - in New Jersey. And I was working at, uh, C.P. Forbes. The company had their offices in an apartment building right across the street from where I lived.

Mhm hmm.

But I had never had a day that I couldn’t get to work! Even in snowstorms I was there. So, uh. Anyway. I--I was planning to leave work. Um. Like, maybe the first week of, first week in November. And then come up to the house and be here when they delivered the refrigerator and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But! And so, I took a day off that, um,. week, I guess, was October 20 something. And I went to New York. And I spent the day with my friend from college. I spent the entire day in Macy’s. And I came home, my husband said “Sit down.” Well my parents at the time were in Puerto Rico on vacation. 

Do you have all day?

Oh, yeah!

Um. And I thought “Uh oh, maybe something happened to my parents.”

Mhm hmm.

And he said that the adoption agency called.

Oh!

“They have a baby and they want us to pick, pick him up on Friday.” And this was Tuesday.

(00:24:00)

Mhm hmm.

And it was like, I knew nothing about babies--I was an only child. I had, my father was an only child. My mother had a sister with two, two daughters. They lived (computer dings) in Florida. So the only experience I had with babies was I did babysit.

Mhm hmm.

You know, so you’d be with a little baby for a few hours.

Yeah.

And you don’t really have to know anything except you have to change a diaper.

Mhm hmm.

So--so and Friday was Halloween! 

Oh!

That Friday. So we went into New York and, of course, that was before seat belts, before real child seats or anything and we went into the agency. It was on 94th right off 5th Avenue. And they said, “you know,” - they had us sit in the waiting room and they said “you know, if there’s anything about the baby that you don’t like, you don’t have to take him!” Which was very scary, ‘cause it sounded like there’s something wrong with the baby.

Mhm hmm.

But it turned out he was wonderful. He was beautiful. We were all excited! Everybody was crying, it was, it was great. We went home, I held him in my lap, I knew nothing.

(laughs)

And, uh, oh! So, was, the thing was, so, so I went to work on Wednesday. 

Yeah.

And I said “I have to leave. Thursday is my last day because we’re getting this baby!” I mean, they all knew that I was going through the adoption process.

Right.

So when I came to work on Thursday, they had a whole baby shower for me!

Aw!

They had gone shopping, they bought all the stuff. Had a shower--it had clothing and, I mean, all kinds of stuff. Just, they were really nice! It was just a small company. So. That was it! So my son’s adopted, well, my point of all this was, that um… If your, if your child is adopted, you shouldn’t really be in favor of abortion because that limits the number of babies that would be available for adoption.

Mhm hmm.

But, I just felt very strongly that women should decide. You know that if they want to have a baby? Great. If they don’t? Fine. If they want to do adoption? Great. You shouldn’t force a woman to, uh, to carry a baby to term. And the fact--I was looking through them, when I got out all these files, I was looking through the letters, trying to find those opinion shapers but they were in separate files, and I saw there was a whole bunch of letters that I did about women being forced to carry a baby to term is like slavery.

Yeah.

So I had all these um, letters about slavery. (pause) Okay. So! That was my, um… interest in, in becoming active? I always regretted that I wasn’t active before that.

(00:27:01)

In my younger days. Brandeis was a hotbed of liberalism and, you know, student this, SNCC, the Student Non-Violence Coordinating Committee, I mean. All those early 60s things?

Mhm hmm.

That were going on?

Uh huh.

I was oblivious! 

(laughs)

I didn’t, I, I learned… Because of my growing up, I learned how to shut things out.

Mhm hmm.

So that’s how I lived my life! I would just… shut things out. I used to tell people, if I was sitting in the theater and a couple next to me was having sex, I wouldn’t notice!

(laughs)

You know? I was just, that was how, that was how I survived. By shutting things out. So I never took part of any of the Freedom Rides or any of that stuff, which I probably could have because the people that I went to school with--a lot of them did that. So, I always regretted that, and I regretted that I didn’t protest the, uh, Vietnam War, although at the time then I was working. I was, I was married and working in New York. So. Um. And my husband wasn’t in favor of protesting and stuff.

Mhm hmm.

So. I didn’t do any of that. But! Once, once I was, um, you know… settled in here, I decided to join NOW. And I don’t remember how I joined NOW. I just all of a sudden was going to meetings!

(laughs)

And then, meetings were at someone’s house in--in MountOu--um… Oh my God… Um… (noise) A very rich, very wealthy town, but I can’t remember the name… Oh well, it will come to me. The Boulevard is the main road. (pause) Oh my God… (mumbling)..River, is it something lake? Mountain Lake! Mountain Lakes. Very wealthy area. Uh. So I was going to meetings there. And then that lady stopped being the President and I started going to meetings in Morristown, which was really close. And, uh, the group of us that were going to the meetings--we really bonded. We did, uh, consciousness raising, which--have you heard of that? 

No.

Well, okay. Well, consciousness raising was--now we’re talking about, this is in the mid to late 80s. Uh, it was something that actually developed in the 60s when they started the National Organization for Women and that’s considered the second wave of feminism.

Mhm hmm.

And it, it was uh, a--a set of questions that would make you really think and realize what was going on. 

(00:29:58)

Okay…

And, when you had these meetings, they usually were like maybe ten people in the group, eight to ten people.

Mhm hmm.

And it was very confidential. Anything that was said (pause) was not, you never repeated to anybody else. Anything. So you could feel free to say things because, you knew it was, you know. It stays in Vegas--What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas?

Uh huh.

Something like that. And, and then, you never… you never said to somebody “You should do this.” Or “Why didn’t you do that?” Everything was “I.” “I did this. I felt this.” And so there’s no--no accusations. And we just--we would meet--I don’t know how often we’d... It was once a month? Couldn’t be once a week… And we just bonded! Because everybody, everybody knew everybody’s thing! You know? And they ask questions, um…I can’t really remember. Things like, “Did you ever,” uh, “Did you ever try to buy a car--” and women couldn’t buy cars. They had to have their husbands sign. They would--women didn’t, women couldn’t get credit cards!

What?!

They should, you should--Google, Google “consciousness raising” and see if you can come up with some of the original questions. I mean, there were, there were things...It was, it was tough. We really fought for a lot of stuff!

Mhm hmm!

That, that the younger women today take for granted!

Yeah…

And, uh. Really… There’s a lot of stuff. So we all bonded, and we became, really the basis for a very strong NOW chapter.

Mhm hmm.

And then, at one of the meetings a, a woman came that I had known-- and she was involved with the Democratic Party in Morris County. And she said “We should all join the Democratic Party and become”, um, now what is it called… “Committee members!” 

Okay.

So of course, I--I’m a very pliable person. I did! And I became the Democratic, uh, Party person for my district in Randolph! And then my--usually it’s two people, they elect a male and a female.

Mhm hmm.

So my husband became the male for this, for this district. So I did canvassing and phone banking and then I ran, I--I was the President of the chapter. In 1992, when Clinton ran for president, my friend Shirley and I did a lot of the voter registration.

Mhm hmm.

I still have signs...we were all over the place doing that. (computer dings) And then when I became President of the Chapter, I--I would--in the summertime, I would call these different stores like ShopRite, Foodtown, and set up a date and, and then I would get, you know, get volunteers. (clears throat) 

(00:33:14)

And we would sit all day, it was quite something, I had a card table, which (inaudible, audio cuts out) I’m trying to think, it was, I think with a red tablecloth with stars on it. And I tied the corners with blue ribbon. And I had signs, you know. “Register to Vote!” And we, we didn’t do it--we didn’t say “We’re the National Organization for Women.”

Right.

And it was non-partisan. And for years, years and years, I--I did that. And finally I gave up because I was thinking that I might be registering Democr--uh, Republicans, because Morris County was very Republican. I have, um… I have… (pause) (scuffling) This is… (pause) This is, what, how many pages---two, three, four pages. I call this “The Saga of Susan J. Waldman”.

(laughs) And it says, and this was, um, everything that I’ve done, all the volunteer stuff? So, for instance here, it says “These are the organizations I am currently, or have been involved with. My position and activities.” So with NOW New Jersey, I was the Vice President of Administration from 1999 to 2006--that’s at the state level.

Mhm hmm.

I was the Task Force Review Chair in 1998. I was a member of the, uh, Political Action Committee--NOW New Jersey PAC from 1998 to 2011. And in that position, I used to interview candidates. First the, uh, the way the State does it now is a little different because we don’t have the volunteers to do these things. But at that time, we did. And we would send out a questionnaire, with like three questions like “Do you believe in equal rights... for women?” Um. “Do you believe in,” um, you know, “legal abortion?” (pause) And I don’t remember what the third question was, whether it had to do with the LGBTQ or, I don’t really re--I could tell you, I have all this papers here but um. They sent it-- that was sent to every candidate in the state.

Right.

And if they sent back the questions answered correctly, then we would try to set up an interview and we had a questionnaire which had, sometimes between 13 and 19 questions, because every year it would be revised based on who--uh, what, what, uh… What positions were, were being, uh… run for. Boy that was a bad sentence (laughs)

(00:36:07)

But like, some years, only the State Assembly was run.

Mhm hmm.

Some years, the Assembly and the Senate were both running. Some years neither one was running. Some years, uh. We didn’t even have a Senate. Someone was running for State --you know, national Senate. Or, um. Or for the State’s um, you know, for Congress. You know? Federal level. And so, every year--and then of course the issues would change, too. So every year we revised the questionnaire. And I would call candidates and, and set up, uh, interviews and sometimes I would go by myself. Sometimes I would get somebody else--I had a friend who was a member of the Chapter, she was also ve--very active in the National Council of Jewish Women - and so she would come and we would interview. We had a whole, uh, (buzz) (pause) (scuffling) ( glass clinking) Got all of my tchotchkes here  (pause) This was our manual -- “National Organization for Women, New Jersey, Political Action Committee.” And uh, one of the, one of the members of the State--she was great! She worked for an attorney. She would make up… Um, background information. You know just - for every question!

(laughs) We had background information. So that when we did the interview--

Mhm hmm.

If the, if the candidate had a question that we didn’t have to know everything in our heads. We would look it up. And, and, uh, the whole idea was, of course, to find candidates that.. that agreed with all the issues, that answered everything right.

Mhm hmm.

And a lot of things were like, essay questions, otherwise they weren’t all yes/no. We asked them, you know, “Why do you believe this?” Or “What would you do--” uh, “to help women get elected?” or “What would you do about this issue, if this issue came up when you’re, when you’re elected official, what would you do?” Um. So. Anyway. You know what? The um… (scuffling) (pause) Here’s the--this is the old questionnaire, I’m not sure what year. So this was “Do you support an Equal Rights Amendment? Do you support legalized abortion? Do you support lesbian and gay civil rights? Do you support punitive welfare reform such as the Child Exclusion Laws--”

(00:39:03)

Which, there was a law at one point, that, um, I mean the Welfare Reform one was brutal. Um. Was that, you couldn’t--if you, if you were on welfare and then you got pregnant again? They wouldn’t give you benefits for the, for that child you know. So whatever benefits you were getting--which was really hardly any money--mhm hmm--um, and the last question was, um, okay. It was “Do you support the allocation of K-12 public education funds to private or parochial schools in the form of vouchers?” 

Vouchers was a very big issue. And I was involved with the, uh, with another organization, that was started by People for the American Way. It was called the New Jersey Coalition for Democracy. I ended up being treasurer, I took care of the post office box. And then at one point I was the co-chair of the whole organization. But finally it went away, you know, when the woman that was our liaison between People for the American Way and us, retired. And then the organization, kind of disappeared. 

So I went with um, Lincoln Park was gonna put in a thing with vouchers. And, uh, People for the American Way went to one of their meetings. And I was there with them, it was in Boonton… Lincoln Park, maybe it was Lincoln Park, it's all so close together. And, um, and they, they didn’t do it...they didn’t do the vouchers. So, a lot of stuff.

But, but this was--and the thing was, also to educate the candidate. So the candidate..I--I--one candidate, and I remember this because, um, she was the wife of someone who had, had actually been elected to, um, State Senate in Morris County, which is like impossible? But what happened was, the man who was, uh, running, or who was the incumbent had blocked a judge--it was a woman judge, uh, Murphy, and, um. She was actually the daughter-in-law of the former governor of the state. And she was a really good judge. And, you know, they had something called Senatorial Courtesy?

Mhm hmm.

So if a judge was appointed, and the Senator for that district opposed it--that was, that was it! So she was up for tenure. And this guy, his name was John Dorsey--I can’t believe I’m remembering this. Uh, Maryanne Murphy was her name. And uh, he was against it. And so, we campaigned for this man, whose name was Gordon, Gordon MacInnes, a really great guy. Um. On the fact that this guy, John Dorsey, was against--was anti-women. 

(00:42:05)

Mhm hmm.

And I remember canvassing with, with, with the, the candidate. You know, ringing bells and doing stuff. And he actually won! Was like a miracle. This was a few years later--his wife was running. And I went and I interviewed her. And she was great on all the issues! I mean, they were Democrats and the whole thing. Um. And then we got to the issue about equal marriage.

Mhm hmm.

And she--she couldn’t say “yes.” She had this religious reason.

Mhm hmm.

Because, you know the Bible with all the business of “A man shall not lie with man” and whatever, all that stuff is. Um. And we couldn’t convince her! You know, no matter what. 

Mhm hmm.

And so we didn’t endorse her! Because, that was really, really an important issue. Luckily! (chuckles) That’s done! 

(laughs) Yeah.

We got equal marriage! Yay! But that was the big sticking point that people were uh, were against that. I mean, it was a big fight. I was working--I worked on, with uh… I guess, I don’t remember what group it was… Maybe it was the Coalition for Democracy. We were working on first, um. Uh. Domestic partnership? That was like - level A. 

Mhm hmm.

And that got passed. And then, after that was civil unions. I used to go to Trenton, to meetings at the, uh, NJEA on West State street - month after month, we made brochures about equal marriage and all this stuff and I mean I, I, I picketed, I’ve. (laughs) I’ve done it all! And, um. And we’ve, you know, we finally got it passed, but it was, it was a lot of work. Like I said, it had to go through those different levels before we got it. 

I testified at a hearing in a, I guess it was in Montclair. And they--the big, the big, the big reason that people were against marriage was that it was going to ruin heterosexual marriage! I mean, the stupidest--really, when you--when you look at these things, but there’s people--that’s what they believe, they focus on that! It’s gonna mess up marriage, if they allow gay people to get married. So I went and I testified, and the, the person that was running--the, uh, hearing, was Ray--not Ray - Gusciora, I can’t remember his first name - Reed, Reed Gusciora - who’s now, he’s now the mayor of Trenton. But at the time he was a State...I don’t remember whether he was a State Senator or a State Assemblyman. And he was openly gay.

(00:45:05)

Mhm hmm.

You know? So he had this hearing. And I got up and I said, I, I said--and my husband, at that time, you know -this year we’re gonna be married 55 years - probably but at that time I think it was in the 40s, I think and I said, I said “Your Honor, I’ve been married to my husband for 41 years, and, and gay people--” I said, “We’ve had a lot of ups and downs and fights. But nothing ever was caused by the thought of gay people getting married.”

Mhm hmm.

“Never, never been a problem! For our marriage!” And oh, however I said, it was really good. And, and he turned to one of his assistants and he said “Who is that? We should get her to write our stuff!”

(laughs)

Something like that. It was a really cool--so, anyway. Alright, I think that’s--so, that’s how I got involved in politics, was because of NOW.

Mhm hmm.

So. You know, because the lady came to our meeting and said, uh, we should get involved. And I did! And like I said, I also ran all those, um, voter registration things. I have, still have the files and the signs, and everything, um. 

Okay. I also--that answers the next question, about getting involved. And NOW was in the late 80s. Um. And I, I, right away, I was active. And, uh... I became President, let’s see… um, I was the President from --1995 to 1996.

Mhm hmm.

And then again from 2001 to 2002. And then, one year in 2010 because we didn’t--nobody else would do it. So. That’s what I did. Uh… 

Oh and well I had ran, all kinds of events--I mean, I did a big candlelight vigil in the Morristown Green. Um. Let me see, oh my -it was just--oh, i know what - here it is. Um. (pause) The, the, uh... it used to be called… the, um, the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights. It was known as RCAR. Was an organization of people of faith, who are pro-abortion - pro-choice. 

Mhm hmm.

Pro-abortion. And that’s a whole other thing, whether--there’s a lot of controversy over saying that you’re pro-abortion because a lot of people think we should just say pro-choice. But...you know, there’s entire groups now that say “just come out and say now that you--women should be able to get an abortion with no excuses, no guilt, no nothing! Just, if that’s what you want, that’s what you should be able to get. That, that’s it.

(00:48:19)

So anyway, that, so that organization--then they changed their name to the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. And we, uh, started something--started in, I think in Wichita, in the midwest - something called ‘peaceful presence.’ And they would gather, um... where anti-abortion people were, were going to be. Or at clinics. And anyplace like a Planned Parenthood or anywhere where a woman could get an abortion. And we would, we would just be there. There was no, um… you weren’t supposed to confront the antis. You were just there as a peaceful presence. 

And I--I was downsized out of my job, I think in October of 1994, and that’s right around when I was elected President of the chapter, so then I was the (inaudible) person. Well, starting in 1995, I, I joined--they were just starting the Peaceful Presence in Morristown. Because there was a clinic connected to the hospital and, uh, the antis were picketing there. Every Friday from 1 to 3, and they would all stand around. They would do their rosary, you know, they would pray the rosary. And they had these signs, you know- anti-abortion signs with pictures of fetuses and that kind of stuff. So I started that, when that started and I did that until 2005, and I can tell you that, not every Friday, (computer dings) but a majority of Fridays, for those ten years, I was there. Um. Counter picketing. I made myself--because I don’t, I don’t consider myself definitely a person of faith. So I made myself a huge sign on styrofoam that said “PRO-CHOICE.” Letters this size. And um… (sigh) The only time we wouldn’t be there--we would be there in the rain. If there had been a big snow storm and we couldn’t be on the sidewalk, I didn’t go. And if I was on vacation, I didn’t go, and if I was sick I didn’t go. But otherwise? Fridays, I was there. And, uh. (pause) People so--it was interesting, because people would drive by and they would honk for us. Or you’d get the people that’d give you the finger You know. That’s a choice. And sometimes in the summertime, people would stop--we were right next to a parking lot--they would pull in and give us water. 

Oh!

Give us water--and sometimes they gave us money! Yes, they would stop and give us money. And one time, a woman came and she started screaming at us. She was yelling and screaming because she was so upset, she was like insane with upset. And then, and she was pro-choice! And she was so upset that she didn't actually see what our signs said!

Oh!

Finally we calmed her down, and the, and the--she was so angry that people were picketing against abortion. 

Mhm hmm.

That she just, you know. She must have pulled in somewhere and she got out of her car. She was raving mad.

(00:51:55)

Oh my gosh!

But afterwards she calmed down. But I did that for 10 years. And, uh… 

Also, you don’t care about Meals on Wheels… I was (computer dings) active in the, when there, when there was friction in Morristown between the Black community and the Hispanic community or Latino community. They started a group called “Black and Latino Action Coalition” or BLAC. And I was active with that, um, from 2003 to 2006. It all started, I got involved, uh… with, with the Neighborhood House down there. And, uh. Um. getting involved with BLAC and then we, we, uh, they asked me to run a, a, a panel... about, um, work pace--work place discrimination, that’s right. And I got a really great group of people, and that was for Women’s History Month - that’s right, Women’s History Month. And I, I ran that (inaudible) , I don’t think - it’s only… (pause) (shuffling) I don’t know… (shuffling) what did I do with that. Oh… (scratching) my obituary - it’s several pages. I don’t know what happened to it. So, anyway. So I ran this panel. We didn’t get a good turn out of people to come to it. It was really good, I mean. It was really helpful for that community to learn about what, what to do. What’s available, what resources there are. I had someone from the, uh, New Jersey Department on Civil Rights there. I mean, it was really good. 

So, after that, they decided that, uh, for Black History Month, they should do something, an award thing, called Phenomenal Woman, Phenomenal Woman award. So the first year, I was nominated as the, I was one of the phenomenal women. And, uh, we ran that for several years and it was really good, a lot of women. And then, after that first year, they asked me to make the, uh, the opening remarks. And I wrote some really, really great speeches. And one of them, one of them was, uh, I love this one. I was there, you know, standing there.and I was talking about women--I don’t even remember how it started.

(00:55:12)

But then I, all of a sudden I said “Wait, I’m getting a call!” And I pulled my phone out of my pocket. And I said something. And then, what I was talking about was about phones and, and, you know, people being constantly on the phones. It was really good because people really thought I was getting a phone call! (laughs)

(laughs)

And it wasn’t. It was very good. It was one--one year, I said, you know, talking about women’s history month. And I said “People ask, why isn’t there a man’s history month?” I said “Because every month is man’s history month!”

Mhm!

Everything is men! In history, when you read a history book, you can’t find things about women! You see something about Florence Nightingale. Or, or, you know, I mean. It’s, it’s all about men, it’s all about wars. I remember in school, everything was learning about--you went from one war to the next. And maybe, maybe you’ve heard about Marie Curie and, you know. I mean, it was just. So anyway, I did that.

And then, a different...an organization took over the Neighborhood House. The Corner-- Cornerstone, was the organization. And, uh. So, we really, when we picked the women, we asked for nominations and sent out stuff to a lot of places to get nominations for the Phenomenal Woman Award. And… we would get a lot of--we had a very big form that people could fill out, you know, why this person should get the award. And what we tried to do was not pick anybody who did great things in their job. In other words--their job was to do this, maybe they helped homeless people, maybe they helped food banks. Uh. But it was their job.

Right.

We were looking for women that did things just, just like that! They just did things, they weren’t paid to do these things. This was what they did. And we always found, we always found people. So when this Cornerstone Organization came, (you have to yawn, go ahead) um, took over the Neighborhood House.  And they’d deci--the first couple of years we gave, we gave a dinner, we didn’t charge anything. You know, people would cook, and, you know, we’d have a dinner. And then, then they decided we should charge $10. So we charged $10 for the dinner. I think the last, the last year we charged 20, but maybe 10 was the most. You know, people would come because they were getting almost free or almost free food. But then there, this other organization, they wanted it to be a fundraiser.

 (00:58:01)

Okay?

And they made it this whole big thing. And they, instead of doing it the way we had done it all along, they decided that they would tell us who, who they wanted to be the Phenomenal Woman. And the person or people would be, people from the community that would bring in more people to the event. So they would make more money! 

Mhm hmm.

And we didn’t, we didn’t start it like that. So I can tell you that after that one year when we were forced to, uh, to take this one person. And it wasn’t necessarily that it was a bad person!

Mhm hmm.

It was just that, it, it wasn’t what, what the whole thing was based on!

Mhm hmm.

Was, you know.That, the next year, we all quit! 

(laughs)

The whole committee left! And we, and they, they never did it again! You know? But they lost the whole focus of what it was. 

Alright! I can talk can’t I! Alright, what else? Oh! Well, um. You can ask about the Women’s Rights Movement outside of NOW. Yes! The business with this President, the Coalition for Democracy… Um… Black and Latino Action Committee. I joined the, uh, Human Relations Commission in 1994. I’ve been to all kinds of--I could have, uh, been the chair if I wanted to, but I really didn’t want to. I’ve been treasurer, I’ve been, I’ve been secretary. I’m treasurer now. Um. And that’s been going on for a long time. We’re actually doing a lot more now that we--than we used to do, so it's great. Um. Yippee. OK. Um. (pause) 

Were you ever--were your family and friends supportive--yes! My husband was, you know. There was no stopping me!

(laughs)

It was, you know. He had no choice. But he’s never, you know, like, said “If you go to this I’m, I’m leaving you!” kind of thing. I’ve never had problems with him. And uh. Every once in a while, (laughs) when I bake a cake for something, he would say “you never do that for us!” (laughs)

(laughs)

Yeah. He wanted that cake. But, generally there was not a problem. And my family were, you know. Was fine. I don’t have a big family. Um. I raised my son good. He’s a hard worker and he’s, uh. Liberal. Yay. 

(laughs)

Um. Let’s see. And, and focus on the women rights: my main issue was abortion, but I worked on, you know, paid family leave. Uh. Everything. You know. Uh.

(01:01:06)

I’ve testified many times in Trenton. I have… (scuffling) copies. (pause) (scuffling) (pause) This is not my testimony. (laughs) This is the, uh, a, a public hearing. This is the whole, uh,  transcription. Um. Oh yes! Oh, and this was, this was so important. This...this legislation says it was about a proposed amendment to the State Constitution regarding parental notification for medical or surgical procedures or treatments to be performed on minor children - and the main thing was abortion.

Oh.

They wanted parental notification. And we fought this, I can’t tell you.

(laughs)

Yeah, I was in Trenton so many times. And then, somewhere in here… (pause)  I’m surprised I don’t have it marked, but somewhere in here is my testimony. And, uh… we won because of, uh, of, of something called--let me see if I, I always have trouble remembering… Uh, Equal, Equal Protection Under the Law.

Mhm hmm.

Of, under the, the state constitution, if, uh, a girl, a minor under, six--you know, under sixteen… Is pregnant and wants to carry the baby to term?

Mhm hmm.

She does not have to tell her parents.

Okay.

So, equal protection was that, if she wants an abortion, she shouldn’t have to tell her parents either. She should have the equal protection of the Constitution. And so that’s how we avoided, getting parental notification. But it was quite a struggle. Quite a struggle--and they, they always use the same argument, and I just saw that somebody used it. Um. That, if a school has to get parental permission to give a child an aspirin, like the school nurse can’t just give you an aspirin? 

Mhm hmm.

Um. That, then that, you shouldn’t be able to get an abortion without, without your parents being notified. But it’s just, you know? It’s different. It's not the same. Anyway, I did a lot of work on that. So. And, and every issue, you know? I’ve been, I’ve been out there. The first, first interview I had was out on the street, um, in Morristown, on the green. I had just been elected President, but I wasn’t President yet of the chapter, I was President-elect. And there was a thing going on about breast cancer and the environment.

(01:04:02)

And I, and I gave this quick interview on the street about, about the fact that, you know, that we feel that the environment was a major player in why women got breast cancer. And, I had a red hat. I had my clipping here. I won’t make you wait while I get that. 

(laughs)

So! What else? (pause)

I mean, (laughing) you answered a lot of the questions already!

Um. This one about, um. about your path to your current position? Currently, I’ve been, ah, every, done everything in our chapter but Treasurer.

Okay.

Um. I--I am the fundraising Vice President. Because over the years, I would run the fundraisers, but I wasn’t the fundraising Vice President. 

Okay.

But I would do all the work.

Mhm hmm.

So. Um. I ran um. No--these No-Show events? Where, where we would send something out - they were great. We’re gonna do another one! I’m working on... on it right now. Um. You pick a date that doesn’t exist, like September 31st.

Mhm hmm.

And you’d have this no-show event. And the idea is that - you don’t have to come!

Okay…

The no-show, you don’t have to come. And, um. ‘Cause, it’s just, it’s funny. I mean, I’m, I did a lot of that. And then I would run, we do gift wrapping at Barnes and Nobles. I don’t have the feeling as though--I have about 1000--between 700 and a 1000 bows, decorative bows in my basement.

(laughs)

And I have rolls and rolls of wrapping paper. And we, we go, we get the dates at, around Christmas, and we do gift wrapping. And we’ve made, we make  like 1100 dollars. We’ve, we’ve done that, you know over the years. Um. Gift wrapping - because we do a beautiful job. We have my, my women are great. Everybody has a good time! Everybody loves books. And reading.

Yeah.

And people, the customers come--it’s a, it’s a voluntary thing, they. You know, we don’t say “you have to give us money.” But it’s a tipped thing.

Right.

Some people give us a lot of money. Some people stiff us!

(laughs)

They give us nothing after we wrap like 10 different things. And they give us nothing. The uh, store supplies wrapping paper, but they have two or three, um, you know, different patterns. And, but I’ve found that if I brought my own paper, people loved to choose. You know, we have some really --I go and buy it after Christmas when everything is on sale.

Yeah.

Used to go to HomeGoods and pick up great deals. I may have spent 75 dollars on ribbons, you know, bows and paper. But. It’s worth like, triple that.

(01:07:03)

Mhm hmm.

So. So I would run different fundraisers. And so I decided I would become Fundraising Vice President. That’s why I’m that. Uh, might as well get the credit right?

(laughs) Yeah, yeah.

So what else? (pause) Oh! What is the biggest difference between now and 20… Well! The biggest difference now is trying to get young people involved. 

Mhm hmm.

We were all, like in 1980. I was the, I was like in my 40s. Now I just turned 78. 

Mhm hmm.

So, it’s hard to get young women involved. We did have a group in 2018 that joined.

Mhm hmm.

And then, um, they decided, they were like basically going to take over everything.

Okay.

They were going to be elected to all the state offices. And they were going to change the by-laws. And they just didn’t have any respect for…what was there.

Mhm hmm.

And they got upset with us, and they all, um, resigned. It was a tragic, tragic thing. Um. Because three or four of them were in our chapter. Um. And they, we wanted them in our chapter! We wanted them to be President and Vice President, you know, it was gonna be great!

Yeah!

And then it just all, it all went away. So. Um. I think Anjali is terrific.

Mhm hmm.

She is a great president. She’s out there, she--beca--I, have, in the big file with the clippings? All kinds of, of times when the pape--you know, something happened? Some women’s rights thing or an abortion thing or whatever. I would get, when I was President, I would get a phone call! The papers, Star Ledger, Daily Record, they would call me! And ask for a comment, a quote.

Right.

You know, “What do you think about this?” And, um. And then I would be in the papers. I would be in an article about what happened. They would get, they would call, they would call the Right to Life people, you know. And then we, I would have a quote in the paper about something. And then--for years, they ’don’t call anymore. It was like NOW disappeared. It was, you’d get this thing, “Oh, there’s still NOW? NOW”, you know, “you still, exist?” But Anjali is bringing that all back.

Mhm hmm.

She’s got that all, all these inroads and she had this great op-ed in the Star Ledger. 

(01:10:03)

So she, um. So it, so that’s wonderful. So we like being like here, and then sort of a slump. And now she’s bringing us back. Yay!

(laughs) She’s great.

So. You know, a lot of things changed because a lot of issues changed. I mean, we were--equal marriage was a major thing and now that’s, that’s taken care of. Um. Trying to think what other, what other issues--well, there’s a lot more going on with Me Too.

Yeah.

You know. Violence against women. Um. I’m involved with New Jersey Coalition Against Human Trafficking and I’ve been a member since 2011 when it was founded. I’ve, I’ve actually-- 3 of the organizations that founded it? I’m, I’m a member of. So I was in NCJW--National Council of Jewish Women. Um. Like my NOW Chapter.

Mhm hmm.

NOW New Jersey. And, um. Trying to think if there’s any other organizations. So I was… I’m like a founding member and founding member organization.And I’ve done a lot of things with them. I’ve been Nominating Committee chair. Um. You know I’ve been on a lot of committees and--mhm hmm--what not. 

Yeah.

Um. So. (pause) Oh, if you could go back in time… The only thing that I wasn’t involved during the whole Equal Rights Amendment thing. (computer dings) When in the uh, late 60s early 70s when they were really fighting. I don’t know if you saw the movie, I haven’t seen it: “Mrs.America” - the thing about Phylis Schlafly?

(computer dings) No, I haven’t seen it.

Oh, that’s on, well it’s on… It’s on… Not, it’s not Netflix or Prime--Hulu! Which we don’t get, you know. We don’t subscribe to that. So I haven’t seen it. But, um. Oh, it’s on Disney--

Oh, is it on Disney?

Yeah. Called “Mrs. America.”

I’ll look it up.

And it’s about the big fight and how we lost because--but there’s stuff going on now that we, we had to get 38 states to ratify?

Mhm hmm.

And we just got the 38th state--we just, like a couple of months ago, few months ago, got the 38th state. But they had set a time limit, that we had only a certain amount of time to get the 38 states. And that ended in I think 1972.

Oh.

But! It was an amendment to the constitution proposed by James Madison. That’s been like, we were talking about the 1800s? 

Yeah.

So way back!

Way back! And

Last year, or I think last year or the year before. They finally put that in the Constitution!

(01:13:07)

Wow!

That’s like hundreds of years!

Yeah!

So we’re saying that, if they could do that, why can’t we get that equal rights amendment now?

Yeah!

So. There’s that, and of course now with Trump and this… Nothing is gonna happen. But! Hopefully, we’ll have President Biden. If we can flip the senate and get a Democratic senate, there’s a good chance that we can get the Equal Rights Amendment. Then, they won’t be able to outlaw abortion. It will be in the Constitution. I never really got--, I can never really, um - explain in my own words what the Equal Rights Amendment does, (computer dings) but once, once we’re in the Constitution, there’s something, when they, when they, a aw is proposed, there’s something called “Strict Scrutiny” that they, that they measure that law by.

Mhm hmm.

Which we don’t have by not being in the Constitution.

Right.

I’m sure you can look it up. I-I never could explain it really well. Um. 

Can you recall the proudest moment or achievement in NOW--with NOW…? I’ve gotten several awards. Um. I got Phenomenal Woman Award. We used to have a women’s festival in Morristown? And I got the Woman of Principle award. Um. The, the state gave me the, they had, they, it was an award called the Intrepid Award. I got that. Um. That was from NOW New Jersey.

Yeah.

But I think, um. I think that if, for me, the testifying has been… Um. You know, it’s not one moment?

Mhm hmm.

But it’s, it’s, for me, very significant that I was able to do that and, uh. And all the letters to the editor and all of the writing that I’ve doneis something that, uh. You know. I never thought when I was in school that that would be my thing. And! I have, like a zillion copies of this. This was in the New York Times - they did a section about New Jersey.

Yeah.

They were looking for people to write and I got a call from somebody that I should submit something. And um… (shuffling) And so I did. Here’s the thing, it was called “One Woman’s Odyssey.”.

Uh huh!

And - and I, the editor only changed a couple little things, from me, my original thing. So I can say I was in the New York Times. (loud scuffling)

(01:16:01)

Wow!

So. I’ve just… Every issue is so important, it's the thing. I--I get overwhelmed a lot. I do so many things. And the Coalition Against Human Trafficking, she wants me to take on this job of being like, someone that does outreach to--all the organizations that belong to the Coalition--there’s like over 180 organizations.

Wow!

Including the FBI!

Wow!

Yeah. And Homeland--the Office of Homeland Security is a member of the New Jersey Coalition. And I just like, but my husband says--”Don’t do it!” I have, I have this friend that I see that was, um, that would go with me on interviews? She’s been an activist for years. She moved away, now she lives in Bethesda. And she was, when they moved, she was going tobe near her son and her grandchildren. And she stopped being an activist.

Oh.

Since Trump - 

Mhm hmm?

She came back!

(laughs)

You see? But we decided that we were gonna start an organization--our own organization called Volunteers Anonymous. Like it’s a 12 step program, how not to volunteer!

(laughs)

We--we just, it’s too much!

Mhm hmm!

It’s too much! It takes a toll.

Yeah.

It really does take a toll. But, um. I’m not good at saying no!

(laughs)

Somebody made me a sign, a sign once, like an 8 and a half by 11, with a big N-O on it!

(laughs)

So that if somebody asked me to do something, just hold that up! (inaudible) 

Okay, so, I think we’re um, okay. we can say How has your involvement with NOW impacted your life? It’s gotten me involved in so many things. So many issues go out, you know, being out there. One time, this was really exciting. There’s a, a woman who does the announcements --she’s the commentator for the New York Yankees.

Mhm hmm.

And her name is Suzyn Waldman.

(laughs) Oh!

She spells it S-U-Z-Y-N., a professional entertainer. She--she was in the uh, the Man of La Mancha, in New York, in the show? She played Esmerelda, I think, whatever the woman that he...he wants to make. And uh. And she has sung the National Anthem in Yankee Stadium. You know, so she’s, I sing also. 

Mhm hmm.

(laughs) And. I-- I’m known for that. Of course at 78 I can’t sing like I could.

(01:19:00)

But, um. I have a lot of--people know me for a lot of things. Some people know me for cooking!

Oh!

I won contests. I worked for the Mennen Company? We would have these, uh, baking contests. I won twice for bread baking and once for a cake.

Wow!

So. Um. I’m known for that. And I have this jello mold I used to make. And I’m known for my singing. And I’m known for my writing. And I’m known for my activism. So I have a lot of--and now I’m known--because I should be a stand-up comedian.

(laughs)

So. Um. Anyway. What was I… Um… (coughs) (pause) I forget what my point was--Oh, this is it--getting old is a real pain. Um… How did I start out? Oh yeah, what I’m known for. Oh yeah, okay. So one time I was going to an allergist in Morristown. And, um, I, I think I was just starting? And when I checked in at the front desk and I said, I said to the lady “I’m Susan Waldman.” Now, many times people would ask me if I was that other Suzyn Waldman!

Oh. (laughs)

But she said to me, she said “Oh!” she says, “Are you the Susan Waldman from NOW?”

Oh!

And it was like, “Oh!” (laughs) That was one of the more exciting moments, that somebody thought I was Susan Waldman, because I always had stuff in the papers! So that was an exciting thing--okay. 

That’s so exciting!

So. Okay. “Since your involvement in the feminist movement, do you think that progress has been made or are we still fighting for the same rights?” Well, some of the things we’re still fighting, for the same rights.

Mhm hmm!

And. Um. Like equal pay. I… One of my arguments to, to people that--they used to say “well, women get paid less because they’re not the breadwinners. Men, men should get the promotions and men should get higher pay - they’re the breadwinners.” Well, that’s not true anymore! Many, many women are head of household! And, and they’re the breadwinners! And, and many households - both people have to work because it’s very expensive now! My house, we bought our house in 1957. And the base price was 29,500 dollars. That was the price. And when we, we took two years. It only took 2 years to build the house. And we had extras. So the actual price we paid was 38,000 dollars for this house. And now they’re selling these houses for like four hundred and something thousand.

(01:22:01)

Wow…

Now, I could never afford to buy this house! 

Mhm hmm!

Now!

Mhm hmm!

And, and, uh…things have gotten so expensive! 

Yeah.

I mean--

Yeah.

Everything! And people, everybody has to work! Well, not everybody in the world because, there’s plenty, plenty of people who have a lot of money!

Mhm hmm.

But, uh. You know. Average people both, both parents have to work or both people. Man and woman

Yeah.

And, uh… And, if the woman is not earning what she should… (pause) That makes a big difference in the family’s bottom line!

Yeah.

And! Social security is based on your earning!

Yeah.

So women, actually poor, elderly women are a very large, make a very large portion of, of the people in poverty in this country. Because of the fact--they may have worked 40 years, but they never earned what, what they, what they should have. And so their social security is less.

Right.

And, and, you know. I mean, all of these--there’s so many things that, uh… (pause) Cause and effect. I don’t know, you know. Things that--why are you this? It’s because of this! Well, if we could fix this, that would fix that!

Mhm hmm.

And so. Okay. Anyway. “What do you see is the biggest impediment to progress?” Oh! Well, there’s a lot of stupid people!

(laughs)

I mean--you talk to men, alright? And you say “Well, do you have a mother? Do you have a wife? Do you have daughters? Do you want your daughters to work and not earn what they should? I mean, don’t you think about that?” That’s, you know, duh! So, um. I think if we can get the Equal Rights Amendment, it would really--that would be--make a difference--yeah. (01:24:02) So the next generation--get out there! 

Okay!

Don’t wait, don’t let it die with us! I mean, we’re.. We’re old and we’re disappearing! 

(laughs)

We need...we need young people to get out and.. and picket. And, now with the Trump thing, I mean, the Women’s March - right after his election?

Yeah.

That was amazing!

Yeah!

All over the world, everywhere! There was--they showed pictures of women on islands in the Antarctic and--(laughs) Bora bora. Places where there are only a few people and they were out there protesting. And-now with the Black Lives Matter, that’s really, oh God. It’s so wonderful. I’ve been to so many events and I, I thought I mean, I’ve been a big equal rights, and you know.

(01:25:04)

Black rights person. Even being in that Black and Latin Action Committee. I mean, I’ve always… I used to tell people, I think in my former life I was a black lesbian.

(laughs)

Because I’ve always been fighting for, for rights. 

Mhm hmm.

And, um… I, I, I think (classical ringtone plays) it’s, it’s going--that’s my other phone. Usually it (inaudible over music) (music gets quieter) (music stops) I don’t know.. (scuffling) So. Uh, but I thought, I thought I understood a lot.

Mhm hmm.

Going to these different teach-ins, protests and what not? And hearing the stories of young people who, I mean all--so many young people that--(classical ringtone plays again)

(laughs) (music continues) (over music) young people of color who wanted to commit suicide--and young teens! Because of what they go through! I mean, seeing all the terrible things in school! (music continues) It’ll stop… That’s Vivaldi by the way.

Yeah, it’s, it’s--I really like it!

(music stops) Yeah. I picked that ringtone. I thought I wanted something, classical music. Um. Anyway, I’ve heard things that, that are just horrifying. Really. I mean, like I said, I really thought I understood stuff, but. No, no way. No way. I mean. One, one young girl said--in, in grade school that she was called ‘monkey lip’. I mean, and, and the, really sad, sad part is that these children have to be learning these things at home. So you know that all of these racist parents are, are raising children--children aren’t racist! They’re, you know. And I love it when they show pictures of two little kids, one, one black and one white kid. And they’re playing together and they’re hugging. And, and, that’s, that’s normal!

Mhm hmm.

Kids, kids don’t know! And, if, um… In the show South Pacific there’s a song called you--”You’ve Got to Be Taught”.

Mhm hmm.

About--(inaudible) Have you heard that?

No, I haven’t.

Well, it’s a beautiful--”You’ve Got to be Taught”--

I’ll look it up.

(pause) “to hate and fear, people of…” (pause) (muttering) (singing) “You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late, before you are 6 or 7 or 8, to hate all the people your relatives hate--” And, um.. “You’ve got to be… You’ve got to be taught! To hate and fear. Got to be taught from year to year, it’s got to be drummed in your dear little ear, you’ve got to be carefully taught!” Anyway--look it up, you can find it on Youtube, I’m sure. 

(01:28:23)

Yeah.

Um. And that was written in the 40--in the 40s.

Wow.

And, um… It, it’s, it’s really true. We, we…. I know (pause) It’s, in the human trafficking business, the only way--we’ll never really stop it because it’s based on sex. And you’re never gonna get rid of sex. You can stop people from smoking, you’re not gonna stop people from having sex. And, and you, uh. You can’t stop people from wanting to buy sex. And you’re not stop people from making money from sex.

Mhm hmm.

But we have to, have to educate children so they don’t get sucked in. That’s, that’s the whole thing. There’s what you have to be taught! There you go. That’s the good taught! (computer dings) I, I, uh… (pause) I don’t know. It’s depressing sometimes. It gets depressing. Um… So. That’s why I’m, I’m out here. It’s why I have… There’s two, two signs. (pause) (scuffling) (creaking) 

Wow! (pause)

And I have signs--I always, I have--(scuffling) tend to be very creative--not to blow my own horn--toot toot!

(laughs)

I’ve been to many protests and I’ve done many signs.

Mhm hmm.

Many signs. And one of the signs was a, an anti-gun rally in Morristown. (buzz) And, uh. Oh! And I’ve been to all these protests in Washington D.C. and marches all over the place.

Mhm hmm.

And I’ve had my picture taken with my signs. I--I am in thousands, literally thousands of photo albums! Of people who said “Oh! Could we take a picture of you, you and your sign?” I had a sign with, with um… Picture of--I was in, I got in--I don’t know if it was actually in the paper but was in the online--mhm hmm--it showed Bambi.

Mhm hmm.

And pointing at--and then I’m next to him was this AK-47 and it was a big sign, an AK-47. And on the top in big letters I had “Really?” With a question mark. Like, “really? You need that AK-47 to shoot Bambi?” You know?

(01:31:07)

But I’ve had some, uh, really, really good si--I had, well I have a lot of them in the basement. But you, you know what I mean.

Mhm hmm--

Hah, do you need me to go to lunch? (laughs)

No, no! I--I could listen to you talk all day, this is so--(overlapping) Oh, I can talk all day! 

(laughs)

I can tell you my childhood stories, too. That’s a little bit scary. (inaudible) (clears throat) Yeah! It’s, uh… (pause) (sigh) I don’t know--like, I keep thinking of all the--when I, when I was downsized, I thought “Well, now look at the bright side.” I was 55. Was I 55.? 1994… No, I was 52 94… No, yeah--52? That’s young for retiring. And I thought “Well, I’ll be able to do all those projects I have at home that I haven’t done.” I was in the process of trying to make--I had made, you know, things in the house. And I wanted to make one for the guest room. And I had bags of, of material and I had laces and then I had lace and oh! I was so--I was gonna make things for the bed! And I thought “Well, you know what? Now I’ll be able to do that!” But guess what? I ended up selling everything in a garage sale!

(laughs) I said once I was free, then I could really devote myself to all these causes! And I found myself doing more of that. And leaving the projects, sitting around and --in shopping bags. So. I don’t know. Well, I’m pretty uh… I try to do the right thing. And, and if--I always, I said “Well, you know, a lot of times,” I say, “I don’t really believe in God.” I find it hard. That was one of my arguments with the Bible people--mhm hmm--about believing in God. Why would they, if you were God and you could do anything? Why would you do this? Why would you make--and people, their argument always was “God gave us free will! God gave us free will to make choices!”

Mhm hmm!

And I said “Well, why don’t you just make good choices!” 

(laughs) Right?, Why do you have the choice to shoot somebody? Why don’t you know, just - that wouldn’t come into your head! Why--and then I, I thought that if there was a God that created this, our world, and then saw what it was like--mhm hmm--they’d go “well, that’s no good. I’ll try again! And they’d make this other world where God made things better!”--mhm hmm--

(01:34:13)

And then years ago, “somebody sent me a cartoon!” And it shows this person, like a man, sitting at a... at a table, and he’s creating a world. And then there’s a box next to him of like, of discarded worlds. You know, worlds that were, that he made, and it wasn’t so good and he threw it away and I thought “that was my theory! That,” you know, that God moved on to something better!” It was just… I mean, we do terrible things--mhm hmm--to one another. I mean really--read the news about. Just, just two days ago I was reading in the paper about a 17 year old boy working at Sesame Place--which is in Pennsylvania--mhm hmm--uh, he told this, this couple like, that they weren't, you know, they weren’t wearing the mask right or they weren’t wearing a mask--that was the rule in the place?

Mhm hmm.

And they punched him and broke his jaw! Hurt his teeth!

No! And he’s gonna have, you know, have to have… He’ll have repercussions--if you fall down, as a young person, even as middle aged, whatever. If you break a bone, you know when it heals, there are things - you can get arthritis, and that, there are things, for the rest of your life, you could have problems with that!

Yeah!

And, and this poor kid! I mean, and here they’re at a place for children!

Yeah!!

So, I wrote on Facebook--’cause I saw it in the paper but I also saw it on Facebook.

Yeah.

That, um. Unless the, the ment--these idiots, unless these idiots had that mentality of going to Sesame Place because they wanted to be there like (laughs)--you know? Like, they’re 5 years old.

(laughs)

They must have children! You would bring your children there. You don’t go there--I mean I w--I wouldn’t go to Sesame Place even though I loved it! My son loved it. Um. I’m not gonna go unless I’m bringing my grandchildren! 

Mhm hmm!

So I said “they should have their children taken away from them because they’re not fit to be parents!” That people would do something like that--I can’t? I mean you know - over a mask?! Which is, is basically the law in the--you know? I mean. It’s a, people are--I have a problem with people--

Yeah.

That’s  just in general.

Mhm hmm.

General thing. I don’t, you know. Especially in groups.

Yeah.

It’s the herd mentality, you know when you have how--if you get a bunch of the--dogs that normally are nice dogs? And once they get into that, uh. I forget what they called it. Not a, not a herd, but a--

(01:37:03)

Mob? Mob mentality?

(inaudible) there’s another word…

Oh, I don’t know…

They’ll go out, and they’ll, they’ll attack people! You know, they’ll do it as a... as a group!

Mhm hmm.

There’s another word, I can’t think of it. But, uh. You know, it’s… People do really awful things. I don’t know.

Yeah.

So. That’s why it’s hard for me to believe in God. I, I just don’t… I mean, if you had all that power… And I’ve gone to, to forums with rabbis and, you know, listened to stuff about the creation of the world and all that. (pause) I don’t know. Interestingly enough I went to one I found out that there are Jewish people that believe in the af--like, in sort of an afterlife?

Mhm hmm?

That your soul lives on? And that when you die, your soul hovers around you. And then, and then, uh… Then it goes, not to purgatory--we don’t have that. But there’s some, some like a middle place, and then, then you go to, whatever heaven. I, I don’t know. I think-- I used to say to people “Well, do you remember where you were before you were born?” And pretty much everybody says no. I say “well I think that’s where you go when you die!”

Mhm hmm.

Back to whatever that--no thing. Nothing. I don’t know. That could be depressing, so. The older you get, the more you think about it. I’m obsessed! I’m literally obsessed with dying. Plus, you know, you can’t live forever. Although I’m gonna try!

Mhm hmm!

I was really healthy for a while and now I’ve developed high blood pressure. Probably from all the stress from everything that I do!

(laughs)

I had a friend who gave me--I had a friend, she was a friend until she became a Trump voter.

No!

And she gave me a t-shirt once that had this face on it, like red hair sticking out and on the bottom it says “I love stress!” So. And you wanna laugh? Okay, I’ll tell you one more. She said she really wanted to get--this was for my birthday one year, a long time ago. She said she really wanted to get me this t-shirt but it was too expensive. And the t-shirt said “I’m talking and I can’t shut up.”

(laughs) So, after that (laughing) I reckon I've been (inaudible). ‘Cause I haven’t seen her since, um. I guess… 2000--and we were friends for like 30 years, and I worked with her and. Since... since the 2016 when, the election was 2016 - I haven’t had any contact with her.

(01:40:00)

That’s awful…

But I just can’t… I can’t understand how anybody could vote for him! I can’t. I c--it’s just. I, I don’t know.

I know.

Everything he does! And every day he--he’s so mean and horrible! (pause) Like the lies, and--there’s no words to describe him. They haven’t invented a word low enough--yeah--or mean enough--mhm hmm--or terrible enough to describe him. He’s,, he’s such a horror. Really. There’s a picket on Saturday if you feel like it--really Yeah, there’s um. One of the ladies in our, in our chapter, Stacey Gregg. She’s phenomenal.

Mhm hmm.

She’s at everything. Um… And she runs all these protests. It’s, it’s um. I don’t know what town it is. It... it’s the intersection of Route 206 and Lamington Road, I’ll look it up--from 1 to 3 on Saturday. ‘Cause Trump is supposed to be back in New Jersey this weekend.

Ugh...

Yeah I know - yuck (pause)I dunno. And then everything with the election? I mean, the post office business.

It’s crazy!

It’s terrible that-- (noise in background) I don’t know. I, I, if he gets re-elected, and they--all the stuff that I’ve posted on Facebook against him.

(laughs) I used to say because I was an, an, always an activist--not always, but since the 80s. Um. That I have a file with the FBI , but I really do have a file with the FBI(computer dings, inaudible) because there was, they had this citizens, um… college. 

Mhm hmm.

Since, something, and uh, the first one they had in Newark.

Mhm hmm.

I--I was part of that. Because the woman that was the President of NOW New Jersey at the time, the FBI, they called her. This woman who was a, a feminist. So I forget what position she had with the FBI. She was Rita, Rita Aroona. And uh, she called NOW New Jersey and said they would like to have somebody from NOW to attend this, this first one that they did in Newark. And she suggested me! (laughs) (laughs) And so there I was, going--schlepping every,for about 5 or 6 weeks, to Newark, driving to Newark to be at these meetings that started like at 5:30? it was very interesting--I have several FBI t-shirts. I have a couple of FBI mugs! (laughs) (laughs) And, they let us shop at the company store!

That’s so cool!

Um. And I went and they had this thing at Fort Dix, I think it was Fort Dix

(01:43:02)

I was allowed to bring two people. I brought my husband and my friend Shirley, who’s a woman of color. And they gave us a barbeque and then they let us shoot guns? And they showed us this--actually, the very kind of thing that killed Breonna Taylor?

Yeah?

Where they broke in, to her place? Like a SWAT team?

Mhm hmm?

They demonstrated how they do that! They had these like fake houses? And they came on with a SWAT team with the helmets, the whole thing. And they came in and they broke in, you know to this little house. And so that--you know, we actually saw that. And then we got to try on the helmet--must have weighed a hundred pounds. 

(laughs) So. Yeah! The citizens…what the heck was it.And I got a plaque. I have this--(scuffling) You never know what you’re gonna find! (pause) (scuffling) Oh, here it is! This is the binder from that!

Wow.

The Citizens Academy!

Mhm hmm.

All this stuff we got! Um… (pause) This, uh… I went back to Rita, her name was Rita Yonker. She was the supervisor--supervisory special agent, she was.

Ah. So, um. (pause) Yeah. Every week we’d go and, uh. They would teach us something that--one, one guy showed us, um, how a lie detector works.

Mhm hmm.

You know, we sat in for that. And here, this was for October of 1999. I mean, here’s a thing about terrorism. (shuffling) You know, all kinds of--10  most wanted fugitives in 1999.

Oh, wow.

How to reach the FBI--Bank robbery talking points, how’s that? 

Interesting!

So it, it was, it was very, it was interesting. It was, it was--really what it is, is like FBI propaganda.

(laughs) So they took people that were, uh, community people that had some--some kind of status in the community. And they wanted you to, um… To like the FBI!

Yeah! Really! You know, they told you--and they do a lot of--I mean, they do good things. They, they were, uh-one of, one of the things was how they would, uh, do stings for, uh, pedophiles.

Yeah.

You know, people that were on the internet, that were looking for children?

Yeah.

How they, how they would do that and, and, you know, I mean. Those were.

(01:46:04)

And of course they do find… Murderers and killers and, you know, that’s the same thing, but all kinds of stuff like that.

Mhm hmm.

So. But, um… You know. And it--it was the first, it was the first class in Newark. They showed us a film of a bank robbery taking place?

Oh gosh.

And then, then they asked, uh… They asked questions and they ask you to write down the answer to questions like “what c-- what was the color was the hair of the robber?” And “what hair style was it?” And, and uh. “What,” maybe “What time of day was it?” Or, you know. All kinds of questions that you were, you were watching--and they knew that you were watching this film, that you were supposed to remember stuff. But. You, you wouldn’t believe how much you didn’t remember.

Mhm hmm.

Like (inaudible). And, and the guy had this long blond hair. And I remember, I, that I didn’t re--and I had to write it down and I didn’t remember! And, uh. This is why I would never trust an eyewitness.

(laughs) Yeah…

Because, you can’t, you think, you think you know what you saw? But you, you know? You really don’t. So how many people, and especially people of color, have been sent to jail because of an eyewitness who was way out--recently people are getting out of jail, where, where, uh, they had alibis! This one guy, uh, this poor guy? They were in Georgia or something and they, and they had been stopped, they were in Georgia--and there was a record that they were there? 

Mhm hmm?

And they were arrested for this crime that took place at the same time up here! And they went to jail! I mean, it, it…because somebody said she saw them! And she was somebody on drugs!

What!

I mean, bad enough when, when you have all your faculties--yeah!--that you don’t remember. But if you’re someone that’s on drugs? You know.

It’s Crazy.

We, we have--that’s a big thing now.

Mhm hmm.

Police reform?

Mhm hmm.

You know. Uh. Arrest reform, what do they call it? Restorative Justice! (pause) (sigh) I don’t know. So I had said many times, if I ruled the world, it would be different. And I have a lot of people that told me “I would vote for you!” they told me!

I would trust you! I would vote for you! (laughs) (laughs) And, um. I don’t know. But it--and Vi--Vee-shu-a, is that how you pronounce your name? 

Um, Vee-shu-a’s fine. Vishwa.

Vishwa? That’s a pretty name. Does it have a meaning? Or no.

It means “the universe”.

Oh, really!

Yeah!

Oh, beaut--what a great name!

(01:49:11)

Mhm hmm!

Alright. Go, go forth and conquer!

(laughs) Thank you!

Oh, this was fun!

This was so much fun! I really enjoyed this!

Oh, and you have it now all on tape. Wow. Oh! 

Oh.

Anyway.

Thank you so much--

Good luck with the project!

Thank you!

So--

Oh, before I forget! There’s one more thing. I have to like, send you like, um, um, a non--a disclosure thing that says you’re okay with--(overlapping) (inaudible)

oh, right, right!--? Oh, you know what I didn’t talk about?

What?

Now that you mentioned that. Our chapter had a TV pro--show.

Oh, really?

A TV show from, um… (pause) From 19… Oh my God, what’s the name of the show? (pause) (shuffling) (pause) How could I not… (pause) (rustling) (pause) (tv playing in background) (pause) Oh, okay, 1994! We started our own TV show! Public access.

Mhm hmm.

I hosted it a couple of times!

Yeah?

I was on the committee to come up with ideas for programs?

Uh huh!

And I thought, “We’ll be doing this for six months and that’s gonna be it.”

Yeah.

Well we, we just stopped in, uh… Oh God, 2000… I forget what year...I have, I don’t have it in my...in here because I, this was written in 2015… But I worked on that. I was, I, I, from the very beginning in the first class when we learned how to, how to do a TV show, you know, cameras and all? I did the graphics? You know, when they--you watch the news and it says somebody’s name?

Yeah.

That’s what I did.

Oh.

And, um… Oh my God, we, we covered, we’re on YouTube.

Really?

Yeah. Oh--I’ll send you the link. You might really like that... (pause) And we covered all kinds of stuff. Not all the shows are on Youtube, but a lot--we did over 280 shows. 

Wow.

The show would be on cable TV for a month.

Wow.

One show a month. And we, you know, we--every--we did twelve shows a year. We, we… That was another thing that I worked on.

(01:52:06)

So. (inaudible) And they, we would do, we would tape two shows. From the beginning--we’d tape--we needed twelve shows. I guess we did two shows--yeah. We, for three months, we would go three times and tape two shows each time.

Mhm hmm.

We didn’t tape in the winter, the..the snowy months?

Yeah?

And we didn’t tape in the hot months. So. six months, six shows in the spring and six shows in the fall. And then they would show them, you know. So yeah, that was… That was, uh… something, that we did that. We had--now, now everything is videos!

Yeah.

If--so… You know, there was--there’s no need for it now. But we did all kinds of stuff! Really, uh... I don’t know, I probably, if I read this thing, I could come up--oh, at the Candlelight Vigil I did was November 1st of 2000. I even had the guy the head was running the Planned Parenthood at the time--mhm hmm--he was one of my speakers. It was really, uh… (pause) Yeah. I designed, I designed, uh, pins.

Yeah.

We did it, uh, --before there were lesbian rights, um, our chapter had, you know, “Be Free” whatever, you know.

Mhm hmm.

And, uh. Two, two of the women came up with i--this idea, instead of being--this was during Clinton. He had the, the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell?” Did you ever hear of that?

No.

In the army? They, they wouldn’t--if you were gay--and you were in the services?

Yeah.

They wouldn’t throw you out, but you weren’t allowed to be open about it and you weren’t allowed to say anything, couldn’t say that you were gay. 

Wow.

But they, they would let you stay. 

Mhm hmm.

But once you, once you said something, and they, then they would--’cause I had a friend, they were in the army and they got rid of her.

Wow.

That’s because she was gay. Oh yeah! Well. Terrible stuff.

Yeah.

So, they came up with a slogan--”Ask and I’ll Tell!” And I designed a pin using the font Mistral for ‘ask and I’ll tell.’ And all around the edge were, uh, was the rainbow. Like, little sections like, beautiful pin - we made a lot of money with that pin! Sold that pin to, to a lot of organizations. And um, um, then I designed a transgender pin, which I made up the slogan.

(01:55:07)

And it, it uh, the slogan was, “It’s Not Who You Love, It’s Who You Are!” And the point of that was, um, it’s not that you’re, if you---if you feel that you’re really a woman and you were born (computer dings) and they said you were a male. Um… So, if not, it’s like, if you’re a lesbian and, and you fall in love with a woman? But transgender is not that. It’s you!

Yeah.

And then all around the edge, there’s a transgender symbol.

Yeah.

That was all around the edge. And uh, we sold a lot of those too. That was, uh. Yeah. I guess people--but that’s how it is. It’s not who you love.

Mhm hmm.

It’s who you are.

That’s awesome.

So. All my creations.

Mhm hmm.

I, I have worked with a lady that was... she was called the Button Lady. Her name was Fern Williams. She sold buttons, made buttons and bumper stickers for years. That’s how she supported herself. Her husband left her. She had three children and he left her. And this was, this goes back, I mean, ‘cause her children are, uh, now probably near my age, you know. They’re older. Maybe they’re a little younger than me, so. This goes back. But that’s what she did as her business. She made buttons. And I used to, uh - she fell in love with me. And it turns out that I was related--years later, through marriage, my father’s second marriage?

Yeah?

His wife, uh. She was, through her marriage, a cousin. Fern was a cousin! And it’s really funny because when I found out, I called her up and I said “Fern, Fern, you won’t believe this!” I said, “We’re related!” And she said “I have to think about that.”

(laughs) But we, (laughs) (inaudible) But she used to call me. I made, I made up a, a bumper 

sticker about stem cell research--you know, because the right to lifers--right, right--are against that. And, uh. What was the thing? “Support stem cell research, the life you save could be your own!”

Mhm hmm.

And then there was one about Bush. She had one about, (laughs) No Bush Brains. (laughs) Stem cell research, that was. That was George W.. Anyway! So that’s, you know. The escapades go on and on! On and on. 

(inaudible) So. Thank you, and, and, so you have to send--you’re gonna email me that? The release?

Yeah, yeah.

It’s called the release.

Okay. Yeah I’ll send you the release.

That’s what made..reminded me of the TV show, because every guest on the show--yeah--had to sign a release. 

Right.

Otherwise you couldn’t broadcast the show. 

Right, right. Yeah.

Okay. So then, and I can, I can then scan it and email it back?

Yeah.

Is that what you’d like?

Yeah, yeah, anything that works for you.

Alright.

I just have to send it to Anjali then.

Okay.

Alright, thank you so, so much! I had--(inaudible)--a lot of fun doing this!

Oh, me too. Thank you so much.

Alright.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Alright, my husband is, is, r--rattling around for lunch now.

(laughing) Okay! Alright.

Bye! So bye-bye and thanks--a pleasure!

Bye.

Okay! Leaving the meeting.

Yup! 

(clicking) (silence) (clicking)

(01:58:57)

END