Joanie Parks worked in office support for forty-seven years. She joined NOW in 1975 and helped start a chapter of the organization in a very conservative town. Joanie discusses the important work that she was involved in and what NOW means to her.

ANNOTATIONS

Transcript: “Um, just doing a lot of writing and a lot of phone calling to, you know, our representatives, just trying to, to make people not be afraid. That this was not going to mean, that equality did not mean, the ERA did not mean equality in that every woman has to go out and get a job outside the home. That was one fallacy. The other one was that we would have to be, going, um, using the same bathroom as men. I mean this is ridiculous I know, but people really did believe that. That women would have to go to war, that we'd have to sign up for the draft and go off to war and as a matter of fact that was such a false thing that, because, what people didn't know was that women if there was a war women were actually, women in World War II were ready to go on the front lines. They would have to go, but the war ended before that happened. So there were just lots of, of, inaccuracies just to keep the ERA from passing and keep women down and not be in the constitution.”

Learn More: Lesley Kennedy, “How Phyllis Schlafly Worked to Defeat the Equal Rights Amendment,” HISTORY, February 9, 2021.

Transcript: “Uh, oh god, back then. No I don't. Back then it seemed like we were marching all the time and we were, there were enough of us to get bus loads of people and I know that the first march was in DC. Um, it was probably an ERA Equality March or an equality march one or the other. Um, the ah, and that was another thing we would go down and back the same day which is not the way a lot of people do things these days. But we did it then and it was just what an exhilarating feeling to see a sea of women, and men, in one place for, ah, for equality.”

Learn More: “History of Marches and Mass Actions,” National Organization For Women, accessed May 16, 2023.

Transcript: “Well, maybe, that's interesting that you would put it that way, um, they felt that, they felt subservient, it, this is maybe sounds a little strange, they felt subservient to men they didn't feel equal to men, but they felt that if something was going to get done it would be the women to do it. I mean, that sounds a little, strange in a way but um, they knew that if something had to be done it would have to be a woman to do it and do it right.”

Learn More: Sarah Jane Glynn, “Breadwinning Mothers Continue To Be the U.S. Norm,” Center for American Progress, May 10, 2019.

Transcript: “He was the youngest one and it was like he was a grown man having his own job and all that but they treated him like a child, although he was the one who had the say in everything. So it was, it was just very odd. That part of, you know, that part of growing up. […] He was three years younger than I, but it was what you wanted, then my sister and I would just have to step in line behind him. I was just like a norm, it was just a norm for me.”

Learn More: Maya Salam, “What Is Toxic Masculinity?,” The New York Times, January 22, 2019.

Transcript: “The mentality sometimes is pretty much the same. Like there are people that we meet that are not, they would never consider themselves feminists and I think it's because they do feel that the man is the, the one who makes decisions, that type of thing.”

Learn More: Debra Satz, “Feminist Perspectives on Reproduction and the Family,” in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, ed. Edward N. Zalta, Summer 2017 (Metaphysics Research Lab, Stanford University, 2013).

Transcript: “It took us back a bit, you it took the wind out of our sail for a bit, but then we realized and, and you know what, I can liken it today, when Hillary didn't win in ‘16. That devastated me and it just, I was depressed for a couple of weeks and then you got up and put one foot in front of the other and let's not have this, you know, do me in shall we say.”

Learn More: Meghan O’Rourke, “Mourning Trump and the America We Could Have Been,” The New Yorker, November 10, 2016.

Transcript: “We have to take things into our own hands and get what we need, what is important to us. And important to the environment. I think too many men don't care about clean air and clean water, I mean they breathe it and drink it just like we do but it's like they’re more concerned about their, you know, the economy.”

Learn More: Karen J. Warren, “Feminist Environmental Philosophy,” in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, ed. Edward N. Zalta, Summer 2015 (Metaphysics Research Lab, Stanford University, 2015).

Learn More [2]: Greta Gaard, ed., Ecofeminism (Temple University Press, 2010).

Transcript: “But when Trump got elected they got active and it makes me feel really good.”

Learn More: Juana Summers, “Within The Early Voting Boom, Youth Turnout Seems To Be Surging,” NPR.org, October 29, 2020.

Learn More [2]: “2020 Presidential Election: Voter Turnout Rate U.S. 2020,” Statista, September 30, 2022.

 TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Katie Zimmermann

July 21, 2020

Transcription by Helen Farmer

Annotations by Destiny Morales

[Note on COVID-19: Due to strict social distancing guidelines, this interview was hosted as a phone call and recorded using a mobile application.]

Katie Zimmermann: Okay it's recording. And then and so just to start I'm going to state my name, Katie Zimmermann and I'm located in Mountainside New Jersey right now and we are doing this interview on Zoom on July 21st of 2020 and can you state your name?

 Joanie Parks: My name is Joanie Parks and

And can you

Oh I was just going to say that I live in Waretown New Jersey which is in Ocean County. I was born in New York City, um and from there I moved for about seven months to Chicago or Hinsdale Illinois really it’s a suburb or Chicago and then back to New Jersey and this is where I've been since, um, 1971.

And then what is your birthday or what day were you born?

 October 24th forty six

1946?

Forty-six, yeah.

Great and can you just tell me a little bit more about your background and where you grew up?

Um, I grew up on the upper west side of Manhattan that was, that was, we were the third generation to do so um, my grandparents lived across the street from us. Um, I didn't know them too well, my grandfather died before I was born and my grandmother died when I was three, but in any case. I went to grammar school up the block from where we lived and then I went to Cathedral High School, which was connected to St Patrick’s cathedral. I lived in the city until I was 23 years old and then I moved to Hinsdale Illinois. [corrected]

What was your family like growing up?

Um, it was a little different I guess you might say, because my father was born in Ireland so he sort of took a back seat to everything that had to do with the kids. Um, I had a sister and a brother, both younger than I and ah, and my mother passed away when I was 7 and she was 35. Um at that time, we moved across the street to my Grandparents house where my, my mother's sisters lived, three of them, they never married. Three of them lived there and we were brought up by them, so that's why it’s a little different. It's sort of like having three parents or actually four, but my father didn't get involved very much. He was there and a part of life. Of course, he lived across the street. He never left that apartment, he didn't uh, let that apartment go, but he spent all his time over with us and the aunts.

Okay. 

And so then, all right, so then as I said I left there, I left New York when I was 23 and got married. I married someone who had three children and um, basically I brought up four kids because I had my biological daughter. Um, when we moved to, um, Westfield, my career by the way was an office support person, which back then they were called secretaries. Now it's sort of office support and that's what I did for a living. I really enjoyed it, at that time um, I guess women didn't have a whole lot of choices, it was becoming a nun, a nurse, a teacher or you know or working in an office, so that’s what I chose. That's what I wanted to do my whole career. I spent 47 years doing that.

Wow

I, I , can't say that I had a promotion because I moved, office to office, but I was an office manager at some point, but it was always clerical work basically. I did payroll but again office support. So when I moved to New Jersey we moved to Westfield and that's where I spent probably let me think, ten years before I got divorced. And I really taking care of the kids and not really, didn't have a job outside the home, which really made me feel a little antsy so I went to a party once, this one particular evening and I met someone that, that person I mentioned earlier Jean L Ambrose (6:09:24) Okay, I met her at a party and she wanted me to, we just got to be talking and she was an interesting woman and told me about her, um her, extracurricular activities shall we say working for NOW New Jersey in the education task force [corrected] so I started typing for her. And I was just really, I didn't care what I was typing in the beginning. It was just like I really wanted to keep up my speed and just keep my fingers into the industry. And um, that's how I got involved in the women's movement.

What year were you married and then divorced?

Ah, um, I got married in (long pause) 68, 1968 (pause) 77, 1977.

And do you remember what year you moved to Westfield?

Um, yes, 71.

And you remember what year you met Jean Ambrose?

Ah, I'd have to say probably, let's say 73, 73 or 74 let's make it 74.

Okay. So how did-

This is really hard I have to tell you.

It's okay-

It's a long time ago.

It's okay, it's okay. You're doing great. So how did it feel to have to work outside of the house again when you began to work for Ms. Ambrose or like, volunteer for her?

Well, it was great. It was absolutely wonderful, because I was basically, ah, being a housewife wasn't exactly a thrilling thing. I mean it's important, I got that, there's nothing more important than taking care of your children, um, but still it didn't give me instant gratification shall we say and one thing that I did besides typing for Jean was I became a crossing guard for the Westfield police department. And ah, and that was good, it was really good to be making money again although it wasn't a whole lot but it was making money on my own and um, and I was, it also afforded me to be a home with the kids when you know on holidays and and and, you know vacations and summer. So it worked out really well that I could still be with them and also work.

Um can you talk about, um what you were typing for Ms. Ambrose when you first started?

 I can't give you any details, but I can say it was before; it was just, you know, it had to be, we were working specifically or mainly I shouldn't say specifically, there were other things that were going on at the time. But title nine had not been passed yet and so that was the impetus and so was all about who she spoke with, you know how close they were to putting some kind of bill together. She was instrumental in that, you know, I don't know of any other things that were going on at that time.

Um, when did she start the Westfield chapter of NOW?

Ah, I believe that was in um, 75, 1975.

Great and how did it feel to start your own chapter? 

Scary! Because I'm a, like, I'm a follower, I'm not a leader but Jean was you know she really pushed me into it. And I shared with you last time; she put me on a guilt trip. Basically, she asked me two or three times and I said 'I'll help you' and she said, I'm too busy, I want you to do it because you can do it and so finally the third time she asked she said to me, um, well that's okay, I'm not going to ask you any more, um I thought that you were really passionate about what I'm doing, about the movement and it's clear that you don't want to do this so that's okay, I won't ask you again. So, of course I had to go for it and I mean, it wasn't like I did this on my own. But I did organize a meeting and I had to have ten people and um, there were more than ten people ready, willing and able and they were all from Westfield. So that was really great, because the people that Jean and I hung out with and went to parties with were like, straight laced, you know in my opinion Republicans, so it was great to see all these women coming and saying Yay, Yay, let’s go!

Did you know the women who came up, sorry; did you know the women and people who showed up to the meeting before they came or were they new to you?

They were, except for, I can name um, Carolyn Klinger Kueter (12:39:23) who uh, still lives in Westfield, she's a piano teacher, a very well known one as a matter of fact. She was one of them, um she also ran for mayor at some point. I don't know when, maybe the 80's sometime um, but she was one of them. And also the woman who lived across the street from her Jane Farlow (13:05:09) who now lives in Maine.

Oh wow

And ah, and Jean was one of them too. Jean decided that she would show support, I think that was it. Myself, a neighbor of mine too, I think she just, I don't think she had any kind of great feminist passions or anything but she was another one and I think that she was doing that just to support me. But I did, there were others who I met and it was great you know, it was great just to see new people with like minds.

Yeah, and then what was it like to start a chapter in a primarily conservative town?

It was, it really, it wasn't easy and to basically um, get people more involved, just get people involved, just plain involved because um, you know, some of the women were, like for instance Carolyn was a piano teacher, she didn't finish until 6 or 7 o’clock at night. There were other women who had careers so it was going, it was hard for them to get home, um, put dinner on the table right away for the family, had to do that, and then show up at a meeting, which I think we held at 7 or 8 o'clock if I remember. So it was hard, it was hard to get people. to, to show up and that's the only way we- it was all face to fact meetings. But we made it and we, we did it, when I left to move down to Ocean county and that was in 2003 we had like and it was the same group, we had about over 100 members.

Oh wow

On paper, on paper mind you. They didn't show up, but they were on paper. And so they were, women who obviously were, were supportive of NOW and feminism but they did just not want to come out. And that's you know, going ahead quite a few decades but, um, but the, the chapter just stays throughout that whole time. We just sort of like, dragged it along every year.

Mmm-hm- What were

Until, I have to say, until Anjali (16:06:05) you know, took it and ran with it and she's doing a superb job on the chapter level and also state. So, I'm really happy that I ran into her

Yeah. What would you say was your biggest accomplishment as a president of Westfield NOW?

 Um, I'm thinking that, getting the, getting the Title IX passed, um, really it's hard to say. I would say it's just seeing so many feminists in a conservative town. There was a lot of passion there.

Was your- 

The ERA was around at that time. It was, it was you know, that was hard to but Phyllis Schlafly and Anita Byrant getting involved in that whole thing, but it was, it was a struggle at times but we kept going.

Can you speak a little more specifically on initiatives you were involved in for the ERA?

Um, just doing a lot of writing and a lot of phone calling to, you know, our representatives, just trying to, to make people not be afraid. That this was not going to mean, that equality did not mean, the ERA did not mean equality in that every woman has to go out and get a job outside the home. That was one fallacy. The other one was that we would have to be, going, um, using the same bathroom as men. I mean this is ridiculous I know, but people really did believe that. That women would have to go to war, that we'd have to sign up for the draft and go off to war and as a matter of fact that was such a false thing that, because, what people didn't know was that women if there was a war women were actually, women in World War II were ready to go on the front lines. They would have to go, but the war ended before that happened. So there were just lots of, of, inaccuracies just to keep the ERA from passing and keep women down and not be in the constitution.

[Annotation 1] 

I remember last time you mentioned travelling to Vermont to help the ERA get passed there. Could you speak a little bit more about that experience? 

Well it was a weekend um, and it was like, it ended before I, I mean in a the blink of an eye, because again we were, there were marches at that time um, just for visibility and uh, leafleting, you know standing in a mall or whatever I forget now where we were. Because we didn't have, we didn't have the local people um, driving us here and there, um, but again it was a great experience to meet people from another area of the United States and, and, and you know lend a helping hand.

Yeah, do you remember what year that was?

I can't, no I can't remember. Um, my best guess would be maybe 76 or 77.

Okay. Do you-

I should have done my homework before calling you

No, it's all good, do not worry. Do you remember the first march or rally that you attended?

Uh, oh god, back then. No I don't. Back then it seemed like we were marching all the time and we were, there were enough of us to get bus loads of people and I know that the first march was in DC. Um, it was probably an ERA Equality March or an equality march one or the other. Um, the ah, and that was another thing we would go down and back the same day which is not the way a lot of people do things these days. But we did it then and it was just what an exhilarating feeling to see a sea of women, and men, in one place for, ah, for equality.

[Annotation 2] 

Yeah, that sounds amazing.

Yeah.

Was your family supportive of your involvement in NOW?

Um, I guess so. My husband, you know, he never said don't go, but he wasn't too thrilled about the fact he would have to take care of the kids, his kids by the way.

Yeah

While I went off doing my thing. So that was hard. And then he put them, ah, he put the responsibility of the little ones onto my oldest daughter and so that made her really annoyed with me for going off, doing what I was doing. So it was like, ah, it was just, I was just trying to keep everybody happy. Keep myself happy by doing what I felt was a very important thing for me to be doing and keeping my family intact and happy.

Um, how has your involvement in NOW impacted your life?

It’s pretty the, the one constant in my life actually. It’s something that is like, in my blood. Um, I'm very passionate about what we have accomplished over these years. It was very, you know, back, back then um, if you looked in want ads, which of course you probably don't even know what that is, the newspaper-

Yeah I know what it is

Okay, but they had Want ads for male and female. That was something I lived with back then and we changed that too.

We changed when there was an article about a woman they would always say Mrs. so and so, we changed that to be Ms. or just eliminate that completely. Um but, it alright so I'm really happy that everything we have done and ah, I just seem to continue to keep going and find other things that need fixing. It's certainly very difficult these days because everything that, a lot of stuff that we thought we had put to bed and everything is great that is being taken away from us with this person in the White House (25:20:26)

So kind of going back to when you were working for the ERA. Do you remember how you felt when the ERA was passed in Vermont? 

Well, it was like, we felt really good about it. It was another feather in our cap. You know, just keep going, we next, where are we going next. And then when the extension came, it was like it came to a screeching halt at 35, ah, 35 states it was really a downer. Because we felt what happened? What happened here? With every, it was great to have a victory. It was sort of a snowball until we got to 35.

Do you think the ERA will ever be ratified?

Um, I think if we can, yeah, we can. AH, I just just really don't, everything is so uncertain right now, I'm feeling, I'm feeling pretty uncertain about a whole lot of things. But I think if we can get McConnell out. I don't even want to predict how this election is going to go, whether its President, Senate whatever because I was so devastated by Hilary not winning, that it’s like-we're hearing all the time that, that, Biden is like double digits ahead of him, I'm not listening, because I am not going to get myself excited again. So it's a-

Were you involved in Clinton's campaign at all?

Hillary right?

Yeah, yeah. 

Yeah, well listen, pretty much the same as I was, yea, you know. Again, it was a lot of phone calling and I don't think we did any texting back then. Um but a lot of phone calling, a lot of going door to door with people and yeah. And we have a good, we have a good, um Democrat club here and a strong one, so we all got together and waited for the results and, and, not good.

Yeah, um, I’m sorry if you already mentioned this, but what year did you move to Ocean County? 

03, 2003.

And then when did you start to become involved in NOW and um, the local democratic club down there?

Okay the woman who, started Ocean county NOW- Ocean County NOW had not come back yet, I think maybe, now this is really a guess total guess on my part, was like maybe, 2008 or 09 maybe, then I got a call from this person, her name is Lynda Fote and saying you know, you are a NOW member would you like to do a, would you like to have a meeting, you know let's get together and start a chapter. Now this woman was the president of the Ocean county chapter back in the 70's.

Yeah

 Which was pretty amazing but I didn't know anything about Ocean County at that time at all. Anything south of me, I don't know, I didn't know anything about it. So, uh, so I was right there with her and her feeling was that, I don't really care if we go anywhere as a chapter or not. I just want to be able to talk to people who you know, who think like me. And um, and that was really good and that was about 2008 or so. The um, the democratic club here let’s see, how about maybe maybe, um, 15 or 14 or 15, 2014 or 15. And that was really good to see how many women, especially in this community I live in. Um, which is very republican, um it was like, like I said, feminism is in my blood so it was like searching for these groups and I was really happy that they came about.

Yeah that's awesome. Do you know Lynda's full name?

 Yes, L-Y-N-D-A, Lynda F-o-t-e. F as in Frank-

Yeah, I got that, and then so was Ocean County Democrats the first Democratic club you joined?

Um, no, the club that I'm referring to is um, uh, Waretown Democratic Club, that's the local Waretown. Actually yes, that is the first one that I joined. I attended, there's one in Forked River. I attended you know those meetings, everyone once in a while also Barnegat which is south of me. Um, but I did not join those two groups.

OK

Again, I was just trying to get, just trying to see good people. Hang out with good people.

Yeah, that makes sense. So before you said that feminism is in my blood. Where do you think your feminist or activist roots come from? 

I have no idea, because my, my aunts, they didn't even vote. They were registered to vote but they didn't vote. Well, my father did vote and he was a Democrat. He was a Democrat and he voted Democrat all, you know across the board, up until Ronald Reagan, he voted for him. Which, at that point I was aware of politics and I thought I couldn’t believe that he did this, because in my opinion Reagan is the beginning of the end for us. It was downhill from then. But I said to him, how can you do that? I mean, you're a Democrat, and he said, but he's Irish I have to vote for him (33:27:07).

 Yea

So maybe, I mean maybe it was him, although he wasn't political, he voted because he felt he was now a citizen. He became a citizen right away when he moved here. He was, he was in World War II um, and so he was patriotic but not political. So I don't know where this came from except that, you know, I go back to Jean L again. That she, it was, it was, she brought excitement to me and I just followed through.

How do you think being raised by so many women impacted you?

Well, maybe, that's interesting that you would put it that way, um, they felt that, they felt subservient, it, this is maybe sounds a little strange, they felt subservient to men they didn't feel equal to men, but they felt that if something was going to get done it would be the women to do it. I mean, that sounds a little, strange in a way but um, they knew that if something had to be done it would have to be a woman to do it and do it right. Um, you know the, my three aunts brought us up it was also a, until he got married, their brother, he was the youngest one and it was like he was a grown man having his own job and all that but they treated him like a child, although he was the one who had the say in everything. So it was, it was just very odd. That part of, you know, that part of growing up.

[Annotation 3] 

Do you remember how you felt when you witnessed that as a child?

Ah, no there was no, no light bulb went off in my head or anything. Not really, no. And you know, I, it’s just that they, they treated my brother that way too it was like what he wanted. He was three years younger than I, but it was what you wanted, then my sister and I would just have to step in line behind him. I was just like a norm, it was just a norm for me.

[Annotation 4]

Um, so what is your current role in Ocean County now?

 I have not taken an officer role there at all except that I am the liaison between NOW New Jersey and the Chapter. So I do attend and vote on behalf of Ocean County. I do go to the board meetings. Aside from that I'm a member of Indivisible NJ 3rd District and I'm the treasurer for that group.

What is Indivisible NJ 3rd District? (37:05:11)

 That came about I believe, um, right after Trump was elected. It's, I mean there are Indivisible groups all over the United States and district three is the congressional district that I am in. Um, it's just I guess another way of being active. Unlike NOW, you know we try to get legislation passed, that's not what we do, we try to get our candidates elected. So whatever it takes to do that. But to do legislation and that type of thing, um, they’re not into that.

How does it feel to be the liaison between your local NOW chapter and state board?

It’s um, well it’s a good thing. I do get input from Linda and the rest of the group when we meet. We don't meet every month, we probably meet every other month and basically, we're just trying our main goal down here is to get women running for office. And also, you know, get working hard to get our candidates elected and so that's what the chapter does basically. I guess I have a pretty much free range of how I vote on behalf of the chapter and Lynda is okay with that. But we do discuss it and if the chapter has a voice then I do vote for the chapter. But you know something came up at the board meetings that we didn't discuss; I'm so off on my own.

Yeah that makes sense. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of women running for office?

Oh gracious, the one thing I say is, that we've had men, ah, in government positions and authority positions and ah, voting for us, for two hundred years and they're not doing the job. I mean, they are not doing the job for the women. We have to take things into our own hands and get what we need, what is important to us. And important to the environment. I think too many men don't care about clean air and clean water, I mean they breathe it and drink it just like we do but it's like they’re more concerned about their, you know, the economy. And the more money is what it's all about and it's not...

[Annotation 7] 

Can you recall all the positions you've had in NOW? 

Oh gracious, I can't, I can think of, well, I was president, actually I'm in a book that gives the whole thing. Well, hold on

(41:12:22)

(41:23:19)

Can you see that?

So that's-

Feminists who changed America 1963-1975. So, let me read you a story

Yes

Not a story really but- okay- um, I was, I was, president, secretary and I was also secretary of NOW New Jersey for I think five terms, five different officers, and um, newsletter editor. We did have a monthly newsletter um, back in the early days of Westfield area NOW. I was with the lesbian taskforce, the lesbian education task force, of course, lesbian rights task force membership I did the membership for a while, (indistinguishable 42:41:17) um, the ERA campaign and the ERA extension. So you know, that's basically what I did um, I do, I guess it goes along with my career choice, I've also been secretary of the democratic club in Waretown. And yeah, that's it.

That's great. So I think we talked, we talked a little bit about this but what was organizing and holding meetings like before the age of social media.

 Well, it was really, it was difficult in a way, because like I said, you know to get people who were working full time who would have to come home, make dinner for the family and then go out. It was hard um, a lot of the times we had to depend upon the newsletter to bring them news. And we also felt well, at least they know we're doing something. They have the passion and the will to keep us going as long as they give their dues in we are going to be okay. We would probably get, oh the other thing, I have to say this, we also had, like every other month we had a speaker. So those were usually better attended. The speakers would be about the task forces, we have people come and talk about abortion, we'd have people um, talking about, domestic violence, um lesbian and gay rights. So they were well attended because people were so, at that time people were so interested with what, in, in learning because a lot of this stuff was brand new to them. Brand new to us too.

Do you remember what the newsletters included? 

Um, what, well, it had to do with, ah, whatever our last meeting was, the minutes from that and if it was a meeting of, of, a speaker then we'd give a synopsis of what went on there. We'd put into it the new, the names of the new members, um, and just little snippets here and there of people who might, like a little cartoon or something. Oh and also, at that time the state managers met every month-

The state managers? 

NOW New Jersey the board meeting was every month not the way it is now, it is every quarter. So that went into the newsletter too. You know what transpired there, anything new, anything we should be working on, and ah and also, any actions that were coming up. That was a big thing.

Were you involved in planning any rallies or protests?

No. Those rallies or protests would be-I don't remember doing any of that, no I really don't. They were like, they would be planned by the state so we would just step in line behind them as to where we would meet what we would do that type of thing. We would make signs, we would sign making parties too. But the plans of it all I didn't have anything to do with that. Because we also had an officer, a vice-president of action, that would be her duty. So-

What is the biggest difference between NOW today, compared to when you first joined?

I would say that we can reach a whole lot more people in this age, with social media. The mentality sometimes is pretty much the same. Like there are people that we meet that are not, they would never consider themselves feminists and I think it's because they do feel that the man is the, the one who makes decisions, that type of thing. But aside from that you know, it's, we had a, we had some debates between each other back in the day, we're still having that. I think it's mainly because we can reach so many more people this way and easier too. An easy way of meeting more, reaching more, reaching more people.

[Annotation 5] 

Um, if you could go back in time would you have done anything differently, during your time in NOW specifically?

I would say, I would say no. I really wouldn't, maybe just give it the extra, go the extra mile, maybe. But I would say no, I was happy with just the way things went. Like I said, I'm more comfortable when I have a pencil in my hand or a pen. Now it's a laptop, to take notes, but I’m really comfortable with what I have done. I guess I just wish we had gotten the ERA passed, that's the biggest disappointment. Maybe I would have worked just a little harder for that.

How did it feel when you realized the ERA wasn't going to be passed?

It was really pretty devastating. Because we worked so hard, so you know, so many, tirelessly really, there were some women who, I didn't but there were some women who actually quit their jobs, so they could just work full time on this. It took us back a bit, you it took the wind out of our sail for a bit, but then we realized and, and you know what, I can liken it today, when Hillary didn't win in ‘16. That devastated me and it just, I was depressed for a couple of weeks and then you got up and put one foot in front of the other and let's not have this, you know, do me in shall we say.

[Annotation 6] 

 So, what advice do you have for the next generation of women?

 Ah, I see a lot of young people, um, being very involved and when I see articles about feminism being dead, although I haven't seen any of those lately. Feminism is dead, I don't see that, I see women ah, and they, and men supporters, who, who realize there is more to life than making a dollar. Um, that, that, the environment means a lot that the animals that are on this earth is important. So I would say, I don't know if I have advice so much as I am really confident that you will carry on ah, what we have been trying to do for so long. You are taking up the gauntlet and going with it.

How do you feel that protecting the environment and feminism is related?

 Because women have to, women, feminist are part of, you know, like I said, we breathe the same air we drink the same water. If we are polluting both, you know, it's its, it's not one of NOW's um, top issues, but in my opinion it should be, because women are used to be 52% of the country, I'm not sure what it is now but whatever it is we are definitely at least 50% and we have to you know, we have, we have to do better, is what I'm saying. Mother Earth is not happy with us right now.

Are any of you children or grandchildren involved in NOW or any other activist organizations?

 When, um, when Trump won, I bought membership for my kids in Westfield, for my daughter in Westfield and her three daughters. Her youngest daughter, who is going to Towson University [corrected]  she is I guess she's your age, she's going into her third year.

Oh yeah-

And she's a poli-sci major, which is a good thing. Her, my oldest granddaughter whose 27 um, is obviously now out of school, but she ran for office, I forget what district now, in Westfield. And she lost um, but, but she's very involved and she's very involved on Facebook. I don't know if they have renewed their memberships or not, it's up to them now. But those two specifically are involved. I have, I have six grandchildren in all, but I don't think the other ones are involved at all.

 Do you remember what office your granddaughter ran for? 

I can't, I can't because it was, it was like a primary. So she really wasn't, she didn't get very far- assembly, state assembly.

Okay yeah. That sounds right. Was that this year?

That was maybe 17

I probably saw her on the ballot. I'm not sure if I'm in the same district.

Yeah I don't know. Kyla Rodger.

 And then what's your other granddaughter's name who goes to Towson University [corrected]

Fiona. Fiona Rodger.

How does it feel to see them being politically active and holding up the torch?

Very happy about it, um, because before them, you know I've been doing this all along and they know my, my activities and sometimes it would be a joke, 'oh what are you doing now', 'what fun meeting are you going to now', that type of thing. But when Trump got elected they got active and it makes me feel really good. It made me really proud when Fiona decided to be a poli-sci major, so maybe she'll go somewhere.

[Annotation 8] 

There's so much she can do.

Right

Do you know what your grandkids, the rest of your family thinks of your involvement in NOW today?

I think they just know, they know this is part of me, like I said it's sort of like in my blood. They see me.  Going to all these meetings and going to all the national conferences, like it, affects our vacation, so it's like just a normal thing for me to do. I don't think they think, I don't think they think much of it or much more about it. I think my daughter here in Westfield really, ah, is more, ah aware of how dedicated I am and how important it is really.

What do you the next steps for NOW are?

 I honestly think that, it's like, we, it's almost like we have to start from basic scratch again after this guy is done with us. Um, but I think the most important, the most important things is to get feminist women elected. Feminist men too, just feminists elected, um because they are the ones who are going to you know, they are the ones who are going to make this world right, make this country right. You know, ah, the other side, I hate to put it that way but it's true, the other side thinks as long as they have a flag waving and they uh, flag in their lapel that that is patriotism. And it's not, it's like really being, being, uh concerned about tomorrow. And I don't think they are concerned about tomorrow. I think they are concerned about how their profit sheets look next month, that's their future. And you know that's not what we're all about here.

How does it feel to see more men becoming feminists and fighting for feminist ideals? 

I think that's a great thing. We've always had men in the movement. Always. Not a great percentage, but some of them have had leadership roles, which to me is a good thing. We, feminism is all about equality so no one should be against equality. You know it's just right, it's just the right thing to do.

What do you see as the biggest impediment to progress in the women's rights movement?

I would think that it would be, um, Trump and his supporters who, who don't have respect, who don't have respect for women, um, I'm not too sure what they stand for. I think it’s the racism that's so prevalent. I'm not saying that it's all Republicans, but I would say by and large his supporter that’s who they are and I think that's why they support him. Maybe that's not an impediment of feminism per se, but it is a huge impediment on this nation. Because we really are all one, we should be, immigrants, that's what we are all about and I think that if he and his followers had their way, you know, we'd be a dictatorship. That's who he is, so I think if there's an impediment that's it. And even when he's gone, praying, praying it’s going to be in November, we are going to be left with his supporters. They are not going away, so it's going to be, we are going to have a big fight. It's going to be a struggle. So you and your, your counterparts are not going to have an easy time of it.

Yeah

Yeah

I was going to say, what do you think can be done to kind of counter that impediment?

I think that we have to have communication and you really, we really have to speak one on one. That's going to take forever and day but we need to have a forum. I mean, I'm guilty of this too, when I hear that someone is a Republican I just turn off and say well, I know where they are coming from. I really don't, I don't, he could be or she could be a Republican who is not a supporter of hate. But that's where my head goes so I am guilty of that too, but I think we need to open up, have an open mind and talk to each other. Talk to each other, talk with each other for the common good. And to, to realize that you-I'm giving over this country to my children and my grandchildren. We are all at this age, my age, that's what we're all doing and what do you really want them to be, to achieve. I don't think anyone wants to have this country run into the ground but, I think that's where we are headed if we don't come to grips with what we are doing with the environment. Maybe I'm more of an environmentalist than I am a feminist. I think they do hand in hand, but like, that's what I see right now.

No, I think they are very important issues and definitely intersect almost everything intersects. But especially with the environment, because we kind of need it to be alive. Um, so do you have any advice for people who are looking to have conversations with people I'm from the other side or have different political opinions?

I don't have anything concrete at all. I think it has to be like, you know, your neighbor who you come across. I've actually had conversations with, well, it hasn't been a conversation, I can think of three people who, who I've tried to have a conversation with, you know 'what is it about Trump that you, that you support, what has he done' they really honestly act as if they haven't heard me or they look the other way or they say it's the economy, he great with the economy. Well, he's really not, but I don't think that they can say, um, he wants to bring back a white nation. That's what I think they really feel. Um, they don't even want to say to themselves 'oh, it's because he's going to build that wall'. I think that's what they really want and that's a scary place to be to think that so many of us in the nation are racist. So I don't know, I don't even have an idea about that, unless, you know, try to get to know your neighbor. Get to, and you know there are some people who we don't see eye to eye politically but still I make a point in acknowledging them, being nice to them, being friendly with them in the hopes that I'll, they'll say 'hey, she's a feminist and maybe that's not so bad after all'. I mean I really, I have that I do that on a conscious level, I don't know if it's working or not but.

Um, have ever had any conversations with people specifically about feminism and maybe explaining more what it is?

Not recently, not recently, not in recent years. But I have and they, 'Well, I think equal pay is a good thing but I’m really not into that.' I mean, equal pay is something that everybody seems to be okay with, um, aside from that it's like, 'I'm just not so sure that I want that.' And maybe it's because there was a time when feminists were looked at, as men hate, hating men. That's another thing that was very prevalent back then. We didn't touch on that, um back in the 70's, if you were in NOW you hate men well no. And there were a number of men involved at that time, um, who or that we were all a bunch of lesbians, which is also not true. So it's, you know, it's hard.

Um

I was going to say that the people who I talked to heard that, yeah, that's another way of keeping women down. Of keeping those uppity women with ideas of their own, keeping them at bay.

Is there anything else we haven't touched on that you want to speak on?

 I think you've touched on everything. You've done really good. I think we covered a lot, I just wish that I had more that I remembered

 More details, I wish I had more dates.

Oh no that's okay. That was great, I'm really bad at dates.

 No, I think we did good.

Okay is there anything final you want to say?

 No, just personal to you I'm glad that you're involved as you are. I'm glad that you were chosen to work with me or I didn't choose you so I am glad you chose me and I just really feel extremely confident that if there are enough people like you in your generation that will, then we'll see the results that we wanted for so many years, so many decades.

Thank you

 Generations really.