Susan Kramer-Mills
Reverend Susan Kramer Mills is the Executive Director of Town Clock CDC. She recalls her early childhood as well as her lifelong mission to help others and how she does that through church services.
Annotations
Transcript : “So I went to Chicago and it was great cause it was very diverse. McCormick Theological Seminary did not have one campus.”
Learn More : “Faith Based Services and Initiatives.” Careers in Human Services: Topics, HumanServicesEdu, 2018.
Transcript : “So first we went to Women Aware, which is the shelter.”
Transcript [2] : “ You’re just, you’re just, you know, that your, you, your time is going the minute that you walk into short term housing.”
Learn More : “Mission and Values.” About, Women Aware: Moving Beyond Abuse, 2020.
Transcript : “ ‘Cause you return back to your abuser, especially if you’re on the lower income scale.”
Transcript : “Well first of all, I felt that long term housing would be better for anybody.“
Learn More : “What We Do.” About, Town Clock Community Development Corporation (TCCDC), 2020.
Learn More [3] : “The Impact of Safe Housing on Survivors of Domestic Violence.” Resource Library, National Network to End Domestic Violence (NNEDV), November 27, 2017.
Transcript : “And she was not taking her meds and she got involved with a drug group here.”
Transcript [2] : “And we had to deal with her family, cause her family, was like, “But, you know..” I’m like she needs help, but not where-- this is independent living.”
Transcript [2] : “First of all, HUD has cut back the subsidies for, for therapy to, um, half an hour every three weeks or something like that.”
Learn More [2] : “Policy.” Research & Policy, The National Center on Domestic Violence, Trauma & Mental Health, 2019.
Transcript [2] : “--that’s where the spirit is. And I have brought in some, my faith, with different individuals.”
Transcript : “Like, you know, the county grants are forty pages.”
Transcript
Interview conducted by Lauren Weinstein
New Brunswick, NJ
October 1, 2019
Transcription by Marissa Finkelstein
Annotations by Destiny Morales
(Audio File 1)
00:00:00
Ok… so hello.
Hi.
(laughs) Hi Susan. Um…
Hi Lauren.
(laughs) Uh.. This is Susan Kramer Mills. And, um, I’m going to interview you about your, um, life before and how you’re, um, basically how you became the Executive Director of Town Clock. So, um, what did you do before becoming the Executive Director of Town Clock?
(laughs) Uh.. I was the past-- part-time-- pastor, uh, of First Reformed Church in New Brunswick.
Uh huh.
So, I did usual pastor things-- writing sermons every other weekend because my husband was the other pastor, and he was the full-time pastor.
Mm hmm.
And um, yeah, led different, uh, projects or committees of the church.
Mm hmm.
Uh, attended worship service. Um, I also was already-- in 2004-- I was already the Executive Minister for our classes, so I sh- was here one Sunday, then--
Mm hmm.
--and then-- I was traveling around, um, visiting our other churches and--
Mm hmm.
--again, I always divided my time since 2004.
So 2004 is when you first started working?
No.
Alright.
No, 2000-- in the year 2000-- my husband and I both started working as both three-quarter times pastors here at First Reformed Church.
Mm hmm.
And then in 2004 I stepped down to half time, and he stepped up to full time.
Mm hmm.
And then I did the other half time-- my-- of my-- of a-- full time job was to be the Executive Minister of our regional churches.
Mm hmm.
So..
Um--
And then 2012, I stepped down completely of being the pastor of First Reformed Church.
Mm hmm.
And moved over to developing the project-- which was the building project.
Mm hmm.
And um, and then also developing the CDC, the community development corporation.
Ok… So actually I kinda wanna go back before--
Sure--
--that. Were you always a person of faith?
Yes.
How… can you talk about that a little bit--
Sure--
-- In your early childhood or…
Sure… I would say I-- you know you’re born, you get baptized--
Mm hmm.
You maybe get brought to church school. Back then when I was growing up it was the early sixties.
00:02:40
Mm hmm.
Uh, but I almost died. I almost died when I was almost two.
Mm hmm.
Influenza, you know the flu.
Mm hmm.
And my heart stopped twice. They restarted it and, uh, with one of those shots to the--cause I was too little to do the electroshock.
Mm hmm.
And I had a shot every hour. I was in the hospital in an oxygen ch-- tank. I had intravenous food.
Mm hmm.
You know, for twelve days.
Hmm.
And they did tell my mother that I would not make it.
Wow…
She was pregnant with my sister.
Uh huh.
Which was 1963. That would be November.
Mm hmm.
Cause I’m born in November. And it was like right at that time period, yeah.
Wow.
So I almost died. And they, and I remember that.
Yeah, I was going to ask you if you remember.
Yeah. Uh.. I don’t remember that but I remember… I had a deep sense that there was something beyond, that I had had a conversation.
Wow.
That I had been told that this life is a gift.
Mm hmm.
And that was, that-- that was the clear emp-- you know that was a clear message for me.
Mm hmm.
And as my family all calls me, the elephant, because I remember everything almost-- like things since then.
Mm hmm.
Like they-- I could remember when my sister got born which was like three quarters of a year later, so I was two and a half.
Two and a half. (laughs)
Like yeah. Who remembers at two and a half?
Right.
But I have distinctive memories and I can tell you I would say, “There was a long stair where we were going up in this museum, and it was near where Morristown Memorial Hospital. Dad, you were holding me. I was on your right hand..” They’re like do you remember it like, how do you remember those things? And I’m like I- I just I have pictures…
Mm hmm.
And I remember what we were doing. I can still remember my mother waving from-- kids weren’t allowed into the hospital.
Mm hmm.
We waited for my father when he went to visit her and see my sister, in the car.
(laughs)
Can you imagine? Yeah.
Just waiting.. just the kids were sitting in the car (laughing)…
And my brother and I were not children to wait. We were very… active.
Mm hmm.
And yet hyperactive was not a word back then.
Mm hmm.
We were active children. And I remember when we got out of the car and we went closer to the hospital and we were waving to my mother.
Mm hmm.
We could see her. She was at the end of the hall up.. cause we didn’t see her for fourteen days cause she had, um, uh, varicose veins and she had an infection.
Mm hmm.
And when she gave birth it was not-- it didn’t go well.
Mm hmm.
So she had to stay in for-- and that was when you kept people in.
Right. Right.
Which was probably the smartest thing to do back then.
Yeah.
But nowadays they kick you out as soon as possible.
Mm hmm.
So.. anyway. I’m an old lady you can tell.
00:05:34
So, (laughs) So where was that? That was in Morristown you said?
I grew up in Bernardsville.
Uh huh.
And, um, in New Jersey, yes.
Mm hmm.
And Morristown Memorial was where my mom was. That’s where I almost died. Um, so my parents brought me to church and then they got really busy…
Mm hmm.
And they stopped taking us.
Mm hmm.
So I bothered my mother for a whole year to take me back to church school.
Mm hmm.
So in third grade she arranged with my grandparents…
Mm hmm.
…to pick us up every Sunday and take us to church.
Hmm.
So my grandfather would pull up with this big Lincoln.
Mm hmm.
I think it was a Lincoln. It was orange. I don’t know why it was orange. It was orange with a white leather roof and leather white seats.
Mm hmm.
Something pretty outrageous for that time period, for a white guy.
(laughs)
And we got into this car, this huge car. The bucket seat in the back was like ginormous.
Mm hmm.
You know, those cars were like huge.
Yeah.
Like biggest sofas.
Mm hmm.
And the three of us could sit in the back. I mean, my-- I was responsible for all of us going.
Mm hmm.
For-- you know cause my mother was like get rid of them.
(laughs)
And we would get picked up every Sunday, cause my grandmother and grandfather went every Sunday.
Mm hmm.
And I went back to church school and yeah. I was involved very much with everything at church.
Mm hmm.
Youth group, they put me on a committee.
Mm hmm.
That was the worst thing in the world. It was on finance. I HATE FINANCE!
(laughs)
It was stewardship. It was called stewardship. How do you get people to give you money? I’m like really? This is awful. Like don’t put a, like, sixteen-year-old on this, like you get eyes like this-- ya know? I have to write people letters? Yeah.
In retrospect it seems actually like it was a pretty good--
Probably--
--thing for you to be involved with.
God has lots ways of like bringing, yeah... and I went to college and…
Mm hmm.
And I was gonna give back a year.
Mm hmm.
As a thank you for my life--
Mm hmm.
--to God. So my plan was after college, go serve a year somewhere, then come back and do what you need to do. And I was gonna go into-- my undergrad was, um, uh, international relations with a minor in Soviet studies.
Mm hmm.
Right. And, so I didn’t pursue that career.
00:08:08
Mm hmm.
But I ended up going to West Berlin. Served as a volunteer mission for two years.
Mm hmm.
And then I was gonna-- I had made puppets the final year and had graduated from college and was with a group.
Why did you make puppets? (laughs)
I got involved with this group of, um, young people…
Mm hmm.
And they were making Tolkien, The Hobbit.
Mm hmm.
And we made incredible marionettes.
Mm hmm. In Germany?
No this was in, in, at Wooster- at College of Wooster in Ohio, where I was at.
Ok.
And then, and I learned how to do all this type of puppetry.
Mm hmm.
And then we graduated. For six months we had a puppet show we put together. We created our own thing.
Mm hmm.
And I was the head artist on that.
Hmm. Amazing.
I know.
(laughs)
I didn’t know I had it in me either.
Yeah.
I was designing stage, eh you know, the backdrops of a huge stage.
Mm hmm.
It was like thirty feet long.
Hmm.
And puppets, I did all of the main design of the puppets of their features. Another woman was doing their clothes and the other friends were doing the bodies and how to, you know, the marionettes. And then we had three different types, or four different types of puppets.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
So…
And then I had an interview with the Muppets and they told me… This is during right before I left for Germany.
Mm hmm.
And they said “Yeah, you’re really good.” “Good, can you hire me?” “No, we can’t.” “Why?” “Cause you haven’t gone to school for it so you’re not in the artists’ guild.” I’m like, are you kidding me?
(laughs)
I really literally said that. I said, “But Jim Henson didn’t go to school for this.” And they’re like “No, but it’s different nowadays.” And I’m like, “That’s too bad.”
Yeah.
So that’s why I ended up in Germany and the rest is history after that.
Wow! That’s so interesting.
Yeah.
Um, so you ended up in Germany right after college?
A year after college. So I graduated in ’83. ’84 I was in Germany in September.
Mm hmm.
And, um, I was in a church downtown inner city--
Mm hmm.
--Berlin.
Mm hmm.
West Berlin. Cause still the wall.
Mm hmm.
And… I worked with-- they didn’t know what to do with me.
00:10:27
Mm hmm.
So, I worked at first with old people, but I am not a person who sits. So I said, “Well, I see a lot of young people around. Let’s do a youth group.” “Oh, it’s not possible, it’s not possible.” Within six months, I had a whole youth group. I had twenty kids.
Mm hmm.
So.. and they, the congregation were like, “How, how did you do that?” I’m like, “Talking with the youth?”
Mm hmm.
Like you know, invite your friends. Let’s do stuff, let’s hang out. Let’s not just do--
Yeah…
--Bible study. Let’s just-- let’s do stuff. Let’s do a retreat.
Mm hmm.
Let’s go this-- and-- I can’t sit.
(laughs)
So… anyway. Um, and then I was also working with, um, people who were applying for asylum. Refugee status.
Mm hmm.
And they were from all over the world.
Mm hmm.
And mostly I worked with, um, Ghanaian folks.
Mm hmm.
But then I also worked with Sri Lankan folks.
Mm hmm.
Um, the Tamils.
Mm hmm.
So, um, and they were-- it was-- they were horrifying stories, but very intense.
Mm hmm.
So, and I did that for two years. I came back in May of 20-- 2000 and uh, oh no, I’m wrong. 1986. Oh god, too many years. In 1986.
Mm hmm.
And I got off the, off the, um… off the airplane and my mother was driving me home and she said, “What are you gonna do now?”
Mm hmm.
Now, Lauren, you have to understand. I had already did the applications for art school.
Mm hmm.
Cause I was like I’m going back and going to do that! And I’m going to become an artist, and, yeah, I’m gonna work for the Muppets and whatever!
00:12:12
Mm hmm.
Oh, yeah right. I answered her, “I’m going to seminary.” And I went “Who the hell said that?!”
(laughs)
Who said that?!
(laughs)
And she’s like, “Oh that’s wonderful!” I’m like “No!! No!! No!! I have to-- you have to study.” I hated studying.
Mm hmm.
I mean I just barely made through college.
(laughs)
I, and I’m like oh god no. Going back to the seminary is four years.
Mm hmm.
I mean, it’s like one of the heaviest-- besides being a, a medical doctor.
Mm hmm.
But you have to learn languages…
Mm hmm. Latin? Or, or what do--
No no, thank god not Latin.
What--
Uh, Greek and Hebrew. Ancient Hebrew.
Ohh right.
And I-- gonna have to read the ancient texts.
Wow…
Yeah. And I’m like, how I’m gonna do that? Don’t know. Don’t know.
Yeah.
So I’m like, alright. So this is how I went-- I went to interview at different colleges. I don’t know if I’m staying.
(laughs)
That’s what I said. I’m like, I-- I don’t wanna be here, but God has told me I have to be here.
Mm hmm.
So yeah. Cause I said to God, “Ok. If I’m going, I will-- this is a test.”
Mm hmm.
I gotta do well on-- on-- in the languages. So I’m like, “I will follow, alright?”
(laughs)
But, it’s, you know, I gotta have a sign this is the right way, you know?
Mm hmm.
Otherwise, why am I wasting my time and money and seminary?
Yeah.
So…
Yeah..
So we had that conversation.
Mm hmm.
It was one way of course, you know it’s like, “I’m telling you!”
(laughs)
You know, who am I? (sighs) Uh, so-- and I didn’t sign-- you know when you go to seminary it’s like this big thing. Like, you have to sign up with your church, and your church has to support you…
Mm hmm.
And your church-- then your-- then I was Presbyterian, so then your, your, your regional church also has to support you.
Mm hmm.
So you have to go in front of the Presbytery.
Hmm.
That’s this gathering of all these churches.
Mm hmm.
And they have to approve you.
Hmm.
You’re the right person and you do this and you have to do--
Mm hmm.
And you have all sorts of tests and interviews with them and blah-di-blah and that paper and the exams and also, uh, um, mental health exam.
Mm hmm.
And you have to go through clinical super-- uh, um,-- pastoral education at a-- at a—hospital and, yeah.
Mm hmm.
A lot. And I said, “I’m not doing any of that, cause I don’t know if I’m staying.”
Mm hmm.
“Oh.”
So.. they would just—
They just sort of like… “Ok, we’ll stand back and we’ll let her wait.”
00:14:51
(laughs) Were you young- on the young side?
Mm mmm.
How old are people when they go to seminary?
Mm mmm. I had already worked for two and a-- three years. I had been out of school for three years basically.
Uh huh.
So you know, I didn’t leave for, uh, Germany until a year after I had graduated.
Ohh, right. Ok.
And then I was two more years, so I was three years out.
Mm hmm.
But people are now, ya know, going back at fifty or sixty.
Yeah. One of the above.
You know, some crazy people are like… seventy. I’m like, nooo.
(laughs)
I would never do th—and they need to be specialized ministers honestly. Because… you need to be able to put up with a lot of stuff, and I’m not swearing--
Mm hmm.
--because I’m on tape.
(laughs)
You have to deal with human beings. Human beings are pains--
Mm hmm.
--in the neck.
Mm hmm.
And you know, there’s you know, in the biblical text it says, “Stiff necked people.” Yes, we all are.
Mm hmm.
And you have a range of personalities--
Mm hmm.
--in a church that you have to deal with.
Mm hmm. I can see that.
Yeah.
00:15:55
(laughs) Um..
So I went to seminary. I went to seminary in Chicago.
Mm hmm.
I checked out Princeton. Princeton was too beautiful.
Mm hmm.
I was like, I just came from two years of inner city and I can’t go to like, beautified locations, where everybody looks white.
Mm hmm.
You know, I don’t know. I was like, no. So I went to Chicago and it was great cause it was very diverse. McCormick Theological Seminary did not have one campus. It shared its campus--
Mm hmm.
--with a variety of other places. You, you were living elsewhere, like, five-- ten blocks away. You had to walk through, you know, the city.
Mm hmm.
It was-- and Hyde park is a beautiful location anyway.
Mm hmm.
And we could take courses at thirteen different seminaries.
Mm hmm.
Or theological schools.
Hmm.
So I took some at Catholic Theological Union.
Hmm.
I took some at Chicago University.
Mm hmm.
In their religion department, which was really, pretty heady.
Mm hmm.
You know, you could take it anywhere.
Mm hmm.
And it would be approved.
Hmm.
So you’d get a really diverse, open-minded, education.
[ Annotation 1 ]
Mm hmm.
Not like Princeton and it’s like this… That’s it, that’s all that’s there.
Mm hmm.
This is… the smorgasbord.
Yeah.
And you’re influenced by that.
00:17:22
Mm hmm.
And, and then you’re, you have to do a practicum along with. So, I was working in an inner city church. Mostly kids were African American, impoverished. Was great experience.
Mm hmm.
Um, yeah. And that’s where I met my husband! My German husband by the way.
Mm hmm.
Everybody says, “Oh, did you meet in Germany?” I’m like, “Nope!”
(laughs)
We met in Chicago.
So he was in the same program?
Yeah. He was a visiting um, uh, international student.
Mm hmm.
And he was there for one year, but then he came back the second year because…
(laughs)
Of me.
Got it.
Yeah.
So… you guys… when did you get married?
1988.
Ok. So you were…
I was there in 2000-- um 1986.
Mm hmm.
It’s when I started. Oh.. the reason I-- so, ‘cause I made that deal with God.
Mm hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. So, I did Greek intensive.
Mm hmm.
That was like four weeks.
(laughs)
Four weeks, coin a Greek.
Mm hmm.
You know, open up the, the, the fire hydrant and try to drink. That’s how you did Greek.
(laughs)
That’s when I started drinking coffee. I did not drink coffee before that. But that killed me. That literally just killed me. You know. And, then that was the first course. Then there was the second course of Greek. So, and, and I had my final exam.
Mm hmm.
And, and, um, we were on a tri-semester. But this was the-- a pre-Greek, so you can get it ahead of time and get it done.
00:18:57
Mm hmm.
Cause language is during other, writing papers and reading all these books-- theological books. I-- you go insane. So, uh, so I went to the final exam… and I gotta-- what did I get? A minus. And I was like, shit, I have to stay.
(laughs)
I-- I have to stay. And like, you know, what the hell? What, what happened between here and college? Why couldn’t I do well at college? You know.
Mm hmm.
And God was like, “I got you ready, cause you did two years of immersive in Germany and your language barrier has been broken down.” My German was so good that half the people didn’t know that I was not a foreigner.
Wow… Right.
So, when you learn another language like that you can learn other languages--
Mm hmm.
--much easier. So guess what? Yeah.
(laughs)
So stupid me.
That’s funny.
So I kept-- so then my, my pastor came to me and said, “Ok, Sue. Now it’s time. You have to do all of these…” you know, “Fill in this application form which is, like, twenty pages. Tell me your life. Regurgitate everything that you ever thought.”
So that’s one of the checks whenever the communit--
Yes.
Going back to the-- your community.
Yeah, cause they-- yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So I had to go to the-- in front of the Presbytery, present myself.
Mm hmm.
They had to vote on me. “Yes, we think you’re an appropriate candidate.”
Mm hmm.
They ask you questions about your theology. Of course, you have no idea, what’s theology? Like, I had no undergrad in any of this.
Mm hmm.
This was all church school thinking and that’s a very mature place where you’re at.
Mm hmm.
I had a lot of learning to do, cause I was not-- I had feelings. I was very spiritual. I knew--
Mm hmm.
--that, but to get in touch with this theological side, and this thinking, and this being. And also, I didn’t know if I wanted to be, like, a pastor.
Mm hmm.
Like you have to make a choice for that.
Mm hmm. What does that mean?
Your life is different, like you can’t go around doing stupid things.
(laughs)
I mean, you know, I was still doing stupid things.
Mm hmm.
You gotta get yourself together.
Mm hmm.
I was like, you are, you know, like pastors are supposed to behave.
Mm hmm.
Do I behave?
00:21:31
Mm hmm.
How can I-- so it’s a real thing that you have to take on. You don’t-- you just don’t say, “Oh yeah, I’m gonna be that. Yeah, it’s simple.” No… it’s a choice and it’s a real bending or submitting your will, and that’s-- and in that process you do change.
Mm hmm.
But it’s that. It’s that conversation.
Mm hmm.
You have to have a conversation because you’re giving up but you’re also getting a lot.
Mm hmm.
So it’s like, it’s a give and take, but it’s like completely-- it’s like wearing of rocks to get, you know, like you’re getting smooth. This, this rough diamond is getting smoothed out--
Mm hmm.
--and becoming something better, but you’re at age 26, do you really-- is this really what I wanna do?
Mm hmm.
So, it, you know. And besides--which-- I hated writing.
Mm hmm.
Now, a pastor writes a sermon every week. Oh my god. Do you know- that’s like writing a term paper every single week.
Yeah. Plus you deliver it to people.
And then-- t-- see-- talking’s not a problem for me.
Yeah.
It’s the writing.
Mm hmm.
(laughs) and the sitting.
Mm hmm.
And the investigating, and studying, and reading.
Mm hmm.
I mean, I don’t mind reading, but like, you know, am I-- do I have really something wise enough to say?
Mm hmm.
So that’s a real…
Yeah. And do you still do that?
Um, I do on occasion when, um, I get called upon.
Mm hmm.
Yes. I mean I, like, I would preach every other week--
Mm hmm.
--um, at different churches. But I, I’ve called it back because of, of, all of this.
Mm hmm.
This is way too much. And I need really a full day to write a sermon. Like you need, like, eight to twelve hours and you need to start earlier in the week. You need to sit down. You need to get yourself familiarized what, you know, you need-- there' like processing--
Mm hmm.
-- discerning, and mulling it over. I’m not a-- I’m not a, “Oh, I could throw it out on the paper in fifty seconds.” You know.
Mm hmm.
Or-- I need to mull. A lot.
(laughs)
So, and, creative ideas come mostly at night and whatever.
Mm hmm.
Cause I’m a creative.
Mm hmm.
I’m not a-- so, yeah. So it-- it's but being-- understanding how you process things and how you do things is also a learning process.
Mm hmm.
So.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
So, getting back… so you’re in seminary, meet your husband--
Get married.
Get married, go back to Germany?
We go back to Germany in 1988.
Mm hmm.
In September. Um, I start, um, over there it’s at university. They don’t have too many seminaries--
Mm hmm.
-- in the west, in Western Germany.
Mm hmm.
Um, we lived in Marburg. Um, and I took Hebrew.
Mm hmm.
And other courses over there. But I learned ancient Hebrew--
Mm hmm.
-- in Germany. And that was actually-- it helped me learn German, but it also helped me. The Germans really teach you the language.
Mm hmm.
And you have to have also a reading test--
Mm hmm.
--at the end. I got a B minus.
(laughs)
Yeah. I was really happy. I was like B minus in German, hey.
(laughs)
I’m-- I’m-- I’m good.
Yeah.
I’m good.
00:25:06
Yeah.
I’m happy. And, and then I came back… ‘89 is when the wall fell.
Mm hmm.
So that was, yeah, that was pretty amazing. That was the year after we, um, were married.
Mm hmm.
And Hartmut, my husband, was from the east originally.
Mm hmm.
And his parents had been in jail cause they tried to escape Eastern Germany. And so, half the family was still over in the east.
Mm hmm.
So when the wall fell, his family from the east--
Mm hmm.
--drove to the west.
Hmm.
And came to visit my mother in law.
Mm hmm.
And..
Hmm.
And then we, we spent some time also with them. So it was really-- we watched that fall of the wall. We were like, oh my gosh, what’s gonna happen? We were biting our finger nails and everything.
Mm hmm. What were the worries of what would happen?
We thought there might be a war.
Mm hmm.
Because we didn’t know what Gorbachev would do.
Mm hmm.
We didn’t know what East Germany would do.
Mm hmm.
You know, it was all pretty-- and then just sort of crumbled like a house of cards.
Mm hmm.
Just sort of… That was Gorbachev. He said, “Open up the gates.”
Right.
And that… that was just amazing.
Mm hmm.
Just amazing.
So you were in… you started in West Germany--
I was in West Germany--
Yeah.
-- at that time. And then, then I came back for six months to Chicago.
Mm hmm.
Or four months. Finished up my seminary degree there.
Mm hmm.
Got my, my MDiv.
Mm hmm.
And then I spent three months at clinical-- I told you this a long process.
Mm hmm.
Clinical theolog-- uh, clinical, um pastoral education at Somerset Medical Center here. And I stayed with my parents, lived with my parents.
Mm hmm.
They were living in Bridgewater at the time and I drove to the medical center, and I spent sixty hours a week for thirteen weeks or something.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Working with patients?
Yes.
Um.
As a, as a, Chaplin.
Uh huh.
Right. And that was my education that I needed to do in order to-- another checkpoint, you know check off box.
Mm hmm.
So I finished everything that I absolutely needed for my seminary degree.
Mm hmm.
And, and to become ordained.
Mm hmm.
And then after I finished off that clinical I went back-- was also September again.
Mm hmm.
And nobody in West Germany wanted to hire me as a pastor.
Why is that?
Cause they didn’t need people.
Uh huh.
They were overwhelmed with too many candidates. My husband--
Mm hmm.
--graduated top of his class.
Mm hmm.
Number three. They didn’t have placement for him either.
Hmm. Mm hmm.
So we were both sitting there with no place to go.
Mm hmm. And you wanted to be in German--
Be a Pastor.
Eh, eh, be a pastor, but in Germany, you specifically wanted to be?
Well, cause he was still--
His family. Yeah.
We were married and yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. We were gonna try and make it work.
Mm hmm.
Yeah. He’ll tell you, “I took her name because I thought we would stay in Germany.” And I was like, “I never told you I’d stay in Germany.”
00:28:16
(laughs)
I never made that promise. I never promised a rose garden. Never promised. Never promised anything. Cause I don’t know what’s gonna happen.
Right.
But I was not gonna give up my name.
Mm hmm.
So I said, “I’m gonna be Kramer Mills.”
Mm hmm.
“You can be whatever the hell you want.”
(laughs)
You know, and he’s like “Oh welllll I.. I guess I’ll become Kramer Mills.” I’m like “Ok.” “And the kids will become Kramer Mills.” I said, “Fine.”
Mm hmm.
“But I’m not gonna force it upon you.”
Mm hmm.
His mother was not happy, but hey. Hey, yeah.
Yeah. That seems like a fairly progressive thing to do.
Well, I was a feminist.
Yeah.
I am a feminist. And I, you know. I’m like… I made them cut the wedding dress shorter in the front.
Mm hmm.
I didn’t-- you know, it wasn’t a style at that point.
Mm hmm.
But I said, “I want everybody to know I’m walking with my own two feet down the aisle.”
Hmm. Mm hmm.
And it was a, you know, then it just sort of had a little bit of a train. Not much.
Uh huh.
A swoop.
Mm hmm.
But I said-- I, I tried to do everything against the typical rituals. Both our parents walked us down the aisle.
Mm hmm.
We both walked down the aisle.
Mm hmm.
And, you know, we were going together. Not, you know, “Oh for him, da da da, father’s handing her off.” Don’t do that.
Right.
Bullshit.
(laughs)
I’m sorry. Anyway, um, I was a real pretty outspoken feminist.
00:29:44
Mm hmm.
But… so here we are in September. No jobs. No perspective. Living in affordable housing.
Mm hmm.
In western Germany. And we get this phone call from Hartmut’s Uncle who was a pastor and a professor of, of, theology. Um, he did New Testament in the east.
Mm hmm.
In a small town city called Naumburg.
Mm hmm.
And he said, “We need you guys. Come here.”
Mm hmm.
“Hartmut can write his dissertation. You can be a pastor.” And Hartmut’s like, “You wanna try it out?” and I’m like, “Sure, whatever.”
Mm hmm.
So we drove over. We interviewed. We got to know the place. It was beautiful. It was idyllic.
Mm hmm.
Because it’s not populated like Western Germany is and it’s still very rural in many areas.
Mm hmm.
And, um, we got the jobs. I became super-- I was became, um, the-- they had a small seminary that had survived forty years--
Mm hmm.
--of communism. And--
Hm.
--um, was small. But they wanted me to be the, uh, Chaplin for the students.
Mm hmm.
And in the meantime, I also-- and I lead worship service and did pastoral care with the students and did stuff like that. But before that, I spent six months becoming, becoming a pastor.
Mm hmm.
And, so, um, they sent Hartmut and I out to preach in different churches and also to learn the ropes. I had to learn the liturgy.
Mm hmm.
Cause it’s totally different than the, the Presbyterian liturgy. It’s more Lutheran and reformed to-- together. So you sing different parts of the liturgy.
Mm hmm.
And there’s no, no other employees cause it’s a broken-down church because they were not allowed to practice their faith really much. You know, everybody was persecuted for their faith.
Right.
And, so it was a very interesting time. And some villages were Christian and others were communist.
Mm hmm.
And, so, we were sent out, Hartmut and I, to do-- to Church-- we would drive an hour sometimes to some of our churches. Like every Friday we had this one church that we would drive to, and we led four or five classes of, of, Christian Education.
Mm hmm.
And all the village kids, cause it was a very Christian Village--
Mm hmm.
--would come running when they saw our car driving in.
Hmm.
And, and, we had like fifty kids in four different classes.
Mm hmm.
And that was our Friday job.
Mm hmm.
And then throughout the rest of the week we had other jobs we had to do. And then I started at the seminary.
Hmm.
Yeah.
So..
This is 1991 is when we moved there. And 1992 is when we started working in the churches. In September 1992, I took over as the Chaplin at the seminary there.
Mm hmm. Um, what were some of the biggest challenges?
No.. was it 1991 still? It was ’91 still. Cause my daughter was born in ’92. Yeah, so it was ’91, sorry.
00:32:57
Uh huh. Oh no.. I, um, so I was gonna ask what the challenges were, but it also seems like, I don’t know, can you talk more about the-- this idea of persecution and then suddenly these--
Yeah it was totally bizarre for the--
Yeah.
For the east.
Yeah.
So, because in West Germany it’s a, it’s a state religion.
Mm hmm.
So you have in all of the schools, there are-- is Christian education.
Mm hmm.
You know, in the regular public school.
Mm hmm.
So the kids had a choice between going to the Evangelical, uh, um, Christian education, or, or Catholic education cause they were separate. Or they would go to ethics class.
Mm hmm.
Cause that would be the equivalent.
Right.
So, and, so now you’re moving all of that system over to the east.
Mm hmm.
And what used to be a persecuted institution--
Yeah.
--is now the leading institution. It was bizarre.
Yeah.
And the people’s heads couldn’t turn fast enough. It was like a whip.
Yeah.
You know, and all of the sudden what was now hidden--
Mm hmm.
--is now allowed and popular? And, so, like when we moved from our-- the city--
Mm hmm.
--into the village--
Mm hmm.
--we experienced that first hand. So in ’93…
Mm hmm.
So I always say “What forty years of communism couldn’t do, four years of capitalism did.”
Mm hmm.
Meaning all of the seminaries in the east were closed within four years.
Hmm.
And they had survived forty years of communism.
Mm hmm.
Cause the west had pumped money into them.
Mm hmm.
Right, and paid for them. But once this was no longer needed, this strata--
Mm hmm.
--the state churches of the west stopped supporting the seminaries.
Hmm.
And they all folded. And then education, um, seminary was now a university study.
Mmm. So there was no demand for it?
It was not allowed anymore--
Uh huh.
To be a seminary study. So now it was on the university evens that you’re now learning about theology.
Mm hmm.
Which was fine in the west, but it was totally misunderstood in the East.
Mm hmm.
And I could give you an example because I was, I had to teach religious education in the school systems--
Mm hmm.
--as a pastor, starting in 1993. Yeah. And it was part of my pastorate when I became a pastor in one of the villages.
Mm hmm.
Well one of the villages is good cause they—the—they threw churches together.
Mm hmm.
So I had three churches.
Mm hmm.
And not just, and two locations where I had to teach Christian education.
Mm hmm.
So I had, like, eight classes to teach.
Mm hmm.
Or six classes to teach in the week at two different schools.
Mm hmm.
And, um, but like people, like my colleagues at-- in the school system weren’t really sure how to treat me.
Mm hmm.
Because the schools were the centers of teaching, uh, communism.
Mm hmm.
They made sure that all the kids would be inoculated--
Mm hmm.
--against the faith.
Mm hmm.
You were not to be Christian.
Yeah.
If you wore a cross, you would-- they, they would tear it off your chest. So the kids couldn’t even wear crosses. They couldn’t wear any expression. They had become a part of the pioneers--
Mm hmm.
--the young pioneers. So, they all had to go afterwards and do their little saluting the flag and all sorts of other indoctrination stuff--
Mm hmm.
--into the party.
Hmm.
Yeah. The party line. They start you from young. You know.
Mm hmm.
It’s like the Hitler youth.
Right, right.
Just then- eh, you know. Switching the name.
Mm hmm.
So then, hear comes this pastor in the school system. Unbelievable.
Mm hmm.
That’s a revolution, just that.
00:37:10
Right.
I found out that some of the teachers would listen to my classroom because I had a different way of teaching.
Mm hmm.
They were from you know, top to bottom, you know, “You ought a listen!” Da da da, strict, no questions asked. You know, I had discussions.
Mm hmm.
And they were like, “What’s she doing?”
Yeah.
You know, what are you doing? How are-- this isn’t discipline. I’m like yeah, we had discipline. The kids weren’t dancing on the tables.
Mm hmm.
We, you know we had-- we were fine.
Yeah.
“But they’re talking.” They’re allowed to talk…
(laughs)
This is religion. It’s about discussion.
Mm hmm.
I don’t just spoon feed information in.
Mm hmm.
It’s about a process. Not understood.
Mm hmm.
That is-- that’s western thinking.
Mm hmm.
This was-- this was, you know they were still from the mindset of, you know, seventy years. You know, you had Hitler, then you had-- well first you had pre-Hitler which was, you know, they were-- all lost everything.
Mm hmm.
And it was terrible poverty.
Right.
And so you had to obey. There was no getting out of line.
Mm hmm.
You didn’t have that luxury.
Yep.
And then you had Hitler.
Right.
And then you had communism.
Right.
So you had fifty years. A whole two generations basically.
Mm hmm.
And here comes this US American. What the hell is she doing? And she talks English with her children, by the way, too.
Mm hmm.
Also unheard of.
Hm. Mm hmm.
Cause I was like the first foreigner they really had any interaction with.
Mm hmm. That’s interesting.
Was fascinating.
Yeah.
The other fascinating thing. So, we tried to reach out to the broader community. Open the church up.
Mm hmm.
So, I was friends with-- I became friends with the director of the kindergarten--
Mm hmm.
-- in town. There was only one kindergarten. Alright.
Mm hmm.
And she was like, she was like this beloved personage in the community.
Mm hmm.
And I said, “Let’s do, like, some children’s afternoon.” You know.
Mm hmm.
Have the kids come to church. We’ll do a special worship service and then we’ll go out into the parsonage garden and we’ll have, like, activities and games and food and stuff.
Mm hmm.
And invite everybody from the kindergarten.
Mm hmm.
So, they announced it. They signed up for it. Or, you know, and we went into the church and we’re having worship. Like three families showed up.
Mm hmm.
And I was like, “Ok, this is not going well.” You know. And, so, at the end of worship we walked outside.
Mm hmm.
There were twenty families standing outside.
Mm hmm.
And we went, “Why didn’t you go into the church?” and I said, you know, really seriously to some of the women. “We thought your God would hurt us.” “So you believe in God?”
Mm hmm.
“No.” “But you think my God will hurt you? Punish you?” She actually said punish.
Mm hmm.
I said “Why would-- why would you think that my God would punish you?”
Mm hmm.
“Because I don’t believe.”
Hmm.
But then there’s--- so I, you know, I had to process what does that mean? So they’re—
Yeah.
They do feel like there’s something there.
There’s some sort of superstition.
But it’s, it’s very superstitious.
Yeah.
It’s very magical and yeah.
Hmm.
Uh, uh, I—so just trying to be present in the life of the town--
Mm hmm.
--shifted people’s thinking about the church completely and by the end of five years in 1998--
Mm hmm.
-- um, like the church was even included in, for the first time in fifty years, the church was included in a calendar.
Hmm.
People began to love the church.
Mm hmm.
I did weirdo things like why don’t you-- let’s do a-- we have to take the, um, the stucco off the church cause it’s like half falling off and half on and in order to do it right, you have to take it completely off.
Mm hmm.
Right. And then I got somebody to help us do a new roof. Tile roof.
Mm hmm.
I mean that was--
Yeah.
That was amazing. Like, it, we paid like a quarter of the price--
Mm hmm.
-- of what it could have been. And we had them, the, the, um, so I got like fifty volunteers. All these men came out of their--
Mm hmm.
-- their places with these sledgehammers and their pickaxes.
Mm hmm.
And they took the stucco off. We had it off within four days.
Wow. (laughs)
And we fed them. It was a Gaudi.
Mm hmm.
And it was connecting them back to this church--
Mm hmm.
-- that has-- that stands in the center of this town--
Mm hmm.
-- on a hill.
Hmm.
Right. And you can see it from all over wherever you are. And the clock worked.
00:42:09
Mm hmm.
And, so, it would ring. And, so people began to feel like they could love the church.
Mm hmm. Hmm. Yeah. That’s amazing.
It was an amazing time. Someday I’ll write stories. I mean I have stories from that point time period. It was amazing. And I-- both kids were born there.
Mm hmm.
So, both my daughters. And then, um, they wanted-- so they increased my, my pastorate--
Mm hmm.
-- in 1997. And I had two little kids. I mean, little, like two little kids.
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Two and four.
Yeah.
And they were adding six more churches. So I-- in the-- I had nine churches.
(laughs)
And two of them were, like, ruins. I had to figure out how to get money for them and stuff.
Mm hmm.
And I’m like--
It seems--
--and there was no staff cause it was-- they-- this was--
Right.
--an impoverished region. No one who was really on the roles.
Now these churches that are not functioning… the, it’s-- you’re building these communities.
Yes.
It’s so much more than just stopping in and giving a sermon. It’s--
--Oh yeah. No, no, no, no. It’s community.
It’s upkeep-- building a community around--
Yeah, yeah.
--these old buildings that have so much history--
Yes.
--and reteaching people to love.
Yeah cause the one church that was right next to where I lived-- that church-- I lived in that house. That tower was built in 1487.
Wow.
1487. Are we crazy? I mean that’s six hundred years old.
Right.
That’s insane.
Mm hmm.
You know, we think, wow this is two hundred years old- wow! No. Six hundred years old.
Mm hmm.
That’s not even the oldest church.
Right.
I had one that was two hundred years older than that.
Mm hmm.
1200’s.
Hmm.
Yeah.
(laughs) So..
So in that-- so when they said to me then-- 1997-- we have to increase, give you more churches.
Mm hmm.
Like I had nine, and now we’re gonna add three more.
Mm hmm.
I went, yeah. You’re, you’re effing crazy.
(laughs)
You’re crazy. And I was getting pressure to do that--
Mm hmm.
--from above. And I-- and I said to Hartmut, “I will apply for a position--
Mm hmm.
--that has two churches.”
Mm hmm.
It’s an inner-city church. It’s back in the old-- the town that we just came, you know that we had moved from, uh, five years before-- four years before. But, you know, if I don’t get, then I will take that as a sign of God that I am going back to the United States.
Mm hmm.
So I applied, and the bishop was the one who appointed, uh, had the choice and the bishop chose another person--
Mm hmm.
--who had a doctorate. I don’t have a doctorate, I have an MDiv.
Mm hmm.
And her husband had a doctorate and he was gonna-- so there were gonna be two pastors and my husband was going the route of professorship.
00:45:08
Mm hmm.
So, um, and, so I said, “Ok. I’m gonna start applying for churches in the United States.”
Mm hmm.
And I contacted the Presbytery. And they said, “It’ll take you two years to find a church.” I had offers within six months.
Hmm.
And I, I, came over and-- I, I was very lucky.
Mm hmm.
So I saw that everything sort of fell into place.
Mm hmm.
And so by 1998, I had a call over to East Brunswick here.
Mm hmm.
And-- as an Associate Pastor. And, um, I moved.
Mm hmm.
I took the, you know, we packed everything up.
Mm hmm.
And we moved back to the United States.
Mm hmm.
The kids were six and four. Yeah.
Um, so you moved. You got-- you-- right away, an assistant at the First--
At another church.
Oh, at another church. Not the First Reformed.
Yeah, not here.
Ok. Um, so then how did you end up here?
So, I worked over as an associate at, at-- in East Brunswick.
Mm hmm.
At the Presbyterian Church there. Hartmut didn’t know what to do.
Mm hmm.
Like, you know, he had been-- he had a dissertation, he was professor of Church history.
Mm hmm.
And nobody wanted to see him.
Hmm.
He went to Princeton, he went to Drew, he went to-- yeah, he applied, like, to twelve different places.
Mm hmm.
And I said, “I’ll go wherever you need to go.” You know, we’ll move again.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, whatever.
Yeah.
Um, no callbacks because they don’t-- they want adjuncts.
Mm hmm. Right.
And, and, already, there was the decline. You know, twenty years ago there was already the decline in church history--
Mm hmm.
--and all of that. You know, who wants another church historian? You know. Put ‘em on the adjunct list. We already have the guy who’s here for tenured.
Mm hmm.
Blah-di-blah-di-blah. And you have to-- you have to know people.
Mm hmm.
So, he went to the Spotswood Reformed Church ‘cause he said-- he tried to get some callbacks from some Presbyterian Churches and they were not interested in seeing him. So he said, “I’m gonna go and worship at the Spotswood Reformed Church cause it’s close by where East Brunswick is.”
Mm hmm.
And, um, it was only four miles away from our house. I said, “Fine.” He goes, “You know, if I just sit in the pew where you’re at, I’m not gonna get anywhere.”
Mm hmm.
So I went, and he sat in the pew and the second Sunday the pastor called him up and he said-- and I knew the pastor because our daughter was going to the preschool there.
Mm hmm.
So there was some relationship already.
Yeah.
And, and he said, “Who are you, Hartmut?” And you know, they introduce him. He goes, “God has called you here. I want you to take over this position.”
(laughs)
I tell you, this is the-- it-- if you go-- you never know.
Right.
And, so, it all fell into place and by 1999, January, Hartmut had the interim position at the Spotswood Reformed Church.
Mm hmm.
In a matter of four months.
Mm hmm.
And he was taken on by the Reformed Church in America. They embraced him, they allowed him to be a pastor, they accepted his ordination rights from the other country.
Mm hmm.
And all worked out well. Done.
Mm hmm.
So when that job got done, cause he was only the interim pastor.
Mm hmm.
They called a different pastor. They loved him, but they were not allowed to call him.
Mm hmm.
Because he’s interim. So, um, he started applying for other positions.
00:48:53
Mm hmm.
And this one was open. And they said, um-- they offered the position to him and me.
Mm hmm.
Cause he said he wanted to be, you know, with his family. He wanted to have the kids with him.
Mm hmm.
By now, they’re eight, nine-- eight and six. So, um, so we moved over into the Reformed Church.
Mm hmm.
I was not Reformed, but I-- we’re sister churches, denominations.
Mm hmm.
Um, so there’s a formula of agreement between a, a bunch of different Protestant Churches.
Mm hmm.
So, and we can move between them.
Ok. Because they have--
An agreement.
Yeah.
They have an agreement that we accept the ordination from their denomination. They are-- the same. So, we agreed on different aspects.
Mm hmm.
So I was able to move over without much a due.
Mm hmm.
So.
So you moved over here?
Yeah, I moved to here.
Yeah.
Yup
And then, so, and that was in 19--
That was in 2000.
Or 2000. Ok. So what was the congregation like? What’s the- what’s the--
I don’t know if I want to put that on tape.
Ok. (laughs)
They were, they were problematic.
Uh huh.
There was-- they had not cleaned this place out in forty years.
Yeah, I was wondering about the-- the fire.
The fire..
And yeah.
The-- the-- what was remaining of the-- there was a whole bunch of-- there was a whole library in this church.
Mm hmm.
And it was destroyed by the fire.
Mm hmm.
And they had just moved.
Just-- the fire was in 1970--?
One.
00:50:35
One, and it was-- do you wanna talk about the fire and what--
Sure. Um, uh, what we know--
Mm hmm.
--is that this church was housing a woman and, in this, um, the Sexton’s House. That’s also on this property.
Mm hmm.
And she had been abused by a boyfriend.
Mm hmm.
And she was cleaning the church as, as her way to pay back to the church. Her boyfriend broke into the backside of the church ‘cause there were different alcoves and he broke in through the doors.
Mm hmm.
And he set fire to the chancel area of the church.
Mm hmm.
And the historic church got destroyed.
Mmm.
So half of the pews were destroyed. All of the stain glass windows-- except for two were, were reparable.
Mm hmm.
The rest melted--
Mmm.
--or were shattered by the firemen because, um, it was the-- the fire was too hot and they were afraid to lose the roof. The roof is...
Mmm. Mm hmm.
You know, it would have been really, extremely expensive to restore.
Mm hmm.
Um, uh, destroyed the organ console. Uh, the chancel was completely gone and, like I said-- half the pews, half the balcony destroyed.
Mm hmm.
And the church decided to repair, but it didn’t look anything like it was.
Mm hmm.
And it was no longer historic.
Mm hmm.
So that enabled us to actually do this redesign.
Mmm. Mm hmm.
Because if this interior had been historic--
Mm hmm.
--they would have, they would have said no.
Hmm.
It would have been like a museum.
Mm hmm.
Yeah. But because of that fire-- so-- the exterior walls remained the same.
Mm hmm.
And we could do whatever we wanted within the walls.
Mm hmm. Hmm.
We had-- but still it was under negotiation.
So-- so, this place after the, um, after the fire, it stood but could it just not be used really? It was just sort of a vacant building or how was it--
Well, well, yeah--
Yeah.
--They were able to repair the floor.
Mm hmm.
And they repaired whatever was left of the balcony--
Mm hmm.
--and made it, you know, cleaned it off and, um, you know. And the pews. And they built a stage like area. And they built classrooms up in this back area right here.
Mm hmm.
Where we’re talking, where we’re sitting was one of the classrooms basically.
Mm hmm.
And, uh no, this was probably a balcony. Back there was uh, uh. And then they built this big platform and they had the, the, um, holy table on there, the chairs, and two pulpits--
Mm hmm.
--up there. And, and it still sat 650 people.
Hmm. Wow.
Yeah. So it was a huge space, but then, now, it was cut down to a smaller size.
Mm hmm.
Um, and it was-- so everything was repaired.
Mm hmm.
And that’s what we found. But what we found in 2000 is--
Mm hmm.
--um, there was a lot of junk in all of the classrooms in the education building--
Mm hmm.
--that needed to be cleaned out.
Mm hmm.
We had four twenty cubic feet containers for-- to throw garbage.
Huh. Wow.
We had to just unload.
Uh huh.
Cause there was just stuff.
Yeah. Yeah.
People had just, you know, “Oh, clear out this room so that we can rent this space out.” Pshhh.
Mm hmm. Right, right.
Yeah, pile it up in that classroom.
Mm hmm.
So there was, like, junk.
Mm hmm.
There were three have-used, broken pianos.
Woah. (laughs)
You know, it was like, what the heck?
Yeah.
And there was a big Taiwanese congregation that, uh, used the space.
Mm hmm.
And they were very, very kind. And they had like 250 people on a Sunday.
Mm hmm.
And this small congregation of 70 or 80 people.
Mm hmm.
You know, they gave them whatever space they wanted to do.
Mm hmm.
And, so, they were here. The Taiwanese were here on Sundays and we were here on Sundays and, um, you know we did worship services together and it was a very nice crowd.
Mm hmm.
But the congregation needed to change and take ownership over this building.
00:54:43
Mm hmm.
And, also, this downtown area was changing.
Mm hmm.
It used to be that they would never have any meetings here--
Mm hmm.
--for like thirty years because this area was not very conducive. It was scary.
Mm hmm.
There was a lot of break-ins. It was, um, but it was regentrified in the early 90’s.
Mm hmm.
And, um, so we started having meetings here.
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that regentrification?
Downtown here--
Yeah.
Like Hiram Square was totally torn down--
Mm hmm.
--and rebuilt in the early 1990’s.
Mm hmm.
The hotel-- The Hyatt was put up.
Mm hmm.
That was sort of, like, the ballcourt, or-- we’re reclaiming this space.
Yeah.
And that was for Johnson & Johnson’s visitors to stay.
Mm hmm.
And then, then there’s different, um, brownstones that were put up and then, um, nice apartment-- luxury apartment buildings put up.
Mm hmm.
And that just kept on taking over the rest of the city.
Mm hmm.
I mean when were here there was a parking deck, which is now, now, uh, supposed to be a greenspace.
Mm hmm.
And, where they have that Quincy-- that luxury, luxury apartment--
Mm hmm.
--that was a parking lot.
Mm hmm. (laughs)
There was nothing there.
Yeah. Yeah. So that’s all happened since you’ve--
-- in the last twenty years.
In the last twenty years.
This whole downtown area has changed.
So, the, the congregation, you’re saying, needed to take ownership of the space?
Yes.
So, what happened? Can you talk more about that process?
Well we had to, we had to paint things.
Mm hmm.
We had to throw things out. We had to, um-- the nursery wasn’t even-- it was, like, ugly and awful--
Mm hmm.
--and needed to be cleaned. The bathrooms! Oh my gosh. When they repaired the bathrooms--
Mm hmm.
--they renovated the bathrooms, the pipes were from 1950 or earlier.
Wow.
The stoves in the kitchen are eighty years old.
Wow.
Or ninety years old. You can’t get parts for them anywhere. They’re huge- they’re wonderful!
Mm hmm.
Cast iron. Can’t use ‘em.
Right. (laughs)
You’re not supposed to use ‘em. I mean a couple people have burned their hair when they lit them.
Wow.
You know. So that’s, like, the next thing that needs--
Mm hmm.
-- So we had to lead-- you know, get the bathrooms repaired.
Mm hmm.
They were horrible. Alright, but then they were-- we had-- alright, there was also a huge oil tank that was in the street.
Mm hmm.
And we were filling oil in it more than one should.
Mm hmm.
And Hartmut and I were both like, “That oil tank’s been in there sixty years.”
Yeah. Yeah.
“There’s definitely holes in this thing.”
Yeah.
“We gotta get it removed and we have to switch…”
Mm hmm.
Oh, and the heating system needed to be replaced.
(laughs)
The heating system for these two facilities. That was the first big problem we had to face.
Mm hmm.
Hartmut and I had to, basically say at the property meeting--
Mm hmm.
-- “No one will leave this table until we make a decision.”
Mm hmm.
“Oh no, well we can’t do this…” “No. Well we don’t have a choice anymore.”
Right.
The fire marshal came and said he’s shutting us down unless we get it replaced.
Mm hmm.
Cause it’s about to explode.
(laughs) Wow.
So those-- see how I’m-- it just was compiled.
Yeah.
It was so much--
Right.
-- that needed to get done.
Yeah.
And you can say, sure, all of that work in eastern Germany was the same type of stuff.
00:58:29
Mm hmm.
And so, and it was historic. And so, and Hartmut had a... You know, he was connected to history--
Mm hmm.
-- and he understood. He wrote the first grant.
Mm hmm.
It was a historic grant. It was $500,000. It was a planning grant first-- $50. Then he wrote one for $500 but it was a matching grant.
Mm hmm.
So this church raised $500,000. We got--
Wow.
--a million dollars.
Uh huh.
Invested in these two buildings.
Mm hmm.
Roofs on both buildings. Repairs of windows. I mean, steeple repaired.
Mm hmm.
A million dollars.
Hmm.
And we still had three millions dollars worth of repairs to do.
(laughs) Right.
And that was in 2008.
Uh huh.
Or 2009. And I was then--
And meanwhile, it’s a congregation of around--
70 people.
70 people. That’s a small congregation.
Small congregation.
Yeah.
And you’re dealing with major repairs.
Mm hmm.
Bricks falling off the façade.
Mm hmm.
Ok?
Yeah. (laughs)
I can’t, you know-- I don’t even want to tell you what other things were about ready to fall off.
Mm hmm.
The pinch roof over here was hanging on one nail.
(laughs)
When they repaired it, they were like, “Oh my god. That was grace of God that that did not fall down on somebody and kill them.” I mean, slate flying off.
Mmm.
I mean, honest to goodness, pieces of wood from the steeple. That falls down and you’re dead.
Mm hmm.
You’re dead.
Right. Right.
The angels was like, had half a face, you know--
Yeah.
--up there. Alright, so, so I was responsible for trying to get other usage-- building usage in here-- because, like, after the Taiwanese left--
Mm hmm.
--there was a huge gap of money. And so it was like--
So they left? They found another--
-- they left, cause they were like-- the Presbytery told them they had to go help the Presbyterian church here on Livingston Avenue--
Mm hmm.
--and they should share space there and that would help that church and not us.
Mm hmm.
And, so, they moved over there.
Mm hmm.
And, um, and hence they moved elsewhere, and they built their own building.
Mm hmm.
Good luck with that. But-- and that Presbyterian church has sold.
Mm hmm.
Alright. So what-- what do you do when you have two huge buildings and one building was meant for 1100 people?
Right and you have seventy. (laughs)
And we have seventy. And, you know, so we worked with coLAB Arts on different projects, but that didn’t bring in money.
Mm hmm.
Um, and so we had other congregations supposed to be--
01:01:08
And how, how did that relationship get forged, the coLAB Arts relationship?
Dan approached me, years, I mean years-- this is like ten years ago.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think, like, the first time maybe even- no. Even before that. I think it was like 2008. And he was like, “Can we do Midsummer Night’s Dream?” Or-- No, Romeo and Juliet, I think it was.
Mm hmm.
And we allowed them.
And they were-- I got a little bit of history of coLAB Arts, but they were, like, a bunch of grad students--
Mm hmm.
--that first, were just trying to get money for artists--
Yes.
--and then realized that they needed to commit themselves to the community.
Yes.
So it seems like a very-- made sense.
We-- they grew up, we grew up.
Yeah.
We grew up a little bit together.
Mm hmm.
And that was the nice part. Um, and that’s how John came in--
Mm hmm.
--and got to know us. And then joined the church. And then became a part of the whole project and stuff.
Mm hmm.
Um, so what happened was-- so, 19-- 2008, I had been renting out all the different facilities and spaces, and finally, you know, we came to the end of the first phase of the renovation project and we’re like we still have three million dollars and there’s no way we can raise that money.
Mm hmm.
How are we gonna raise this money? And, so, I said let’s form a committee. We called it Building Vision.
Mm hmm.
And, we began to really investigate, what can you do with space like this? Which building would you use?
Mm hmm.
And we had an architect come in and do, like, a sketch and do preliminary, like, proposal of-- build affordable housing.
Mm hmm.
Take-- make the space smaller. That building is complicated. That wouldn’t work out as well. This space is open and least used.
So, architects suggested build affordable housing? How did that decision--
--Yeah, and maybe we talked about it.
Yeah.
I mean my idea was, I saw what went over in Highland Park.
Mm hmm.
And I’m like, can we do affordable housing? We house the men’s shelter two weeks out of the year. We know there’s an affordable housing shortage.
Mm hmm.
I thought we should help-- one of our members has a son--
Mm hmm.
--who is Autistic and he would need housing eventually.
Mm hmm.
You know, where’s he gonna end up--
Right.
--when she’s no longer capable of handling him?
Mm hmm.
So I thought, maybe we do special needs housing.
Mm hmm.
But that, in our investigation--
Mm hmm.
--we got back to-- we found out that special needs housing is not as popular right now. It’s overdone.
01:03:39
Uh huh.
So there’s other populations that need to be addressed. So we went back to that fire event.
Mm hmm.
And we said, “Maybe God was telling us something.”
Hmm.
“Maybe we need to have-- house female survivors of domestic violence.”
Mm hmm.
Let’s go back to that. And then we talked to the shelter here in town. We talked to different in other groups. And they’re like, yeah, definitely that’s a population.
Mm hmm.
So then we started putting together-- then we had to go to the congregation.
Mm hmm.
2010, we went-- I think we had five congregational meetings.
Mm hmm.
You know, do you want us to do this? There was a question there. It came out eighty percent sure.
Mm hmm.
Then we said, ok, now we’re getting really serious. In order for us to do this, we need to start a CDC.
Mm hmm.
A community development corporation, a 501c3.
Mm hmm.
Cause a religious education-- uh, uh institution, can’t apply for this type of funding.
Mm hmm.
So, 2010, May, we had that congregational meeting. All seventy people were there.
Mm hmm.
It was--
Wow.
--packed.
Wow.
Packed. Was a big meeting. We presented our proposal.
Mm hmm.
And they said yes.
Mm hmm.
It was 80/20. I mean, you know, it was never gonna be 100 percent.
What were some of the main reasons why people didn’t want it to change?
This is their space.
Mm hmm.
This is a holy place.
Mm hmm.
“My family has worshipped here for 100 years.”
Mm hmm.
“And you’re gonna change-- you’re gonna take out my pew?!”
Mm hmm.
“My family has had their name on it for 100 years.” Yeah.
Is there still a worshipping area in--
Yes.
Yeah there is. It’s in the other-- so it’s--
It’s right over here.
Yeah. So does this congregation still exist?
Yes.
It’s still, yeah--
Yes.
--a working congregation.
Yeah, it still worships.
It’s just this building has been changed.
Two thirds--
Mm hmm.
--are housing and Town Clock offices.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
One third is the church.
It’s the church.
And it’s two stories.
Uh huh.
Yeah, they worship upstairs.
Mm hmm.
And it’s a beautiful space. It’s thirty feet high.
Mm hmm.
You, you know, it’s warm in the winter.
Mm hmm. (laughs)
It’s cold in the summer.
Yeah.
Cause it’s-- we have air conditioning.
Mm hmm.
It doesn’t have-- the, the floor was literally falling in--
Wow.
--in a huge spot in 2000-- before the renovation.
Mm hmm.
We had to do something with the floor.
Mm hmm.
Cause it was sinking.
Wow.
And what we found out when we took down the posts that hold up the balcony--
Mm hmm.
--they were also hollowed out.
Hmm.
By age.
Mm hmm.
And they needed to be repaired.
Yeah. (laughs)
I mean, I-- I-- I-- it was like-- it was, you know. There was so much that we didn’t know.
Mm hmm.
And you know, and, we didn’t have a floor. It was a dirt floor--
Mm hmm.
--for two hundred years.
Mm hmm.
And all the moisture ruined the floor.
It had come up-- wow.
Yeah.
So, so, the transition was made over to housing.
Yes.
Um.
To do housing.
To do housing.
But you, you still have years of developing.
01:06:48
Right.
So by 2010-- 2010, we applied-- we became a 501c3 in, uh-- we started Town Clock Community Development Corporation.
Mm hmm.
2011, we were definitely, you know, we were incorporated. And then we started having real board meetings.
Mm hmm.
How do we-- and trying to raise funds and distinguish a developer.
Mm hmm.
And we worked within Bergen County United Way, but then there was-- where is the funding?
Mm hmm.
And, um, that’s when Tom Toronto famously said to me, “Susan, you have to be a fundraiser.” And I went back home and I said, “God, where was that in the seminary training?”
(laughs)
Why-- and I, I got the word. That, that was a definite word-- you are to be a fundraiser.
Mm hmm.
And I was like, uh. I know I followed you this path--
You got that training in high school. (laughs)
--I, I--you followed this path. I know I followed this path with you, but I’m really not sure about this.
Yeah.
But you know, that’s what it’s been. I mean, I didn’t know how I’d get a paycheck.
Mm hmm.
No idea.
Yeah.
Cause you’re creating everything.
Right. Right. And how much experience had you had with domestic violence?
None.
Or just dealing with people that had-- survivors--or--
Mmm, uh, yeah. Minimal.
Yeah. Yeah.
Minimal. So there’s no real idea.
Mm hmm.
Um, yeah. So this is an ideal.
Mm hmm.
And we thought, you know, creating housing would be, “Oh we’re fine!” You know.
Mm hmm.
So, it all fell into place. We finally get the money. Superstorm Sandy helped bring more money in for special needs housing for-- for our population. We applied for that money, got the funding. It was not easy, in two different locations.
So wait, can you talk more about how Superstorm Sandy--
Sure. So, um, after Superstorm Sandy, the federal government gave the state of New Jersey bookoos of money--
Mm hmm.
--to make repairs. Amongst that, they gave for affordable housing because in the process of people losing their housing, it-- it put a burden on that there was less affordable housing. Because all of those people from Superstorm Sandy are trying to get in between housing.
Mm hmm.
So that they had a place to stay while their homes were being built.
Mm hmm.
And so, it pushed out the lower income people.
Mm hmm.
And they had less affordable housing. So all the housing prices went up.
Mm hmm.
And so, there was less money. So we need to create more housing.
Mm hmm.
Immediately.
Mm hmm.
And so that urgency was there.
Right.
And so our population of survivors--
Mm hmm.
--was identified as one of the populations that needed more affordable housing.
Mm hmm.
Because also in stress, uh, related, uh, crises like this--
Yeah.
Domestic violence goes up.
Mm hmm.
So, and we were located in one of the nine counties that was hardest hit--
Mm hmm.
--by Superstorm Sandy. So money was allowed to come to this county--
Mm hmm.
--for affordable housing.
Hmm.
And we were ready to start the program-- to do-- almost ready.
Mm hmm.
There was still a year of major paperwork.
Mm hmm.
That was-- so from 2013 to 2014--
Mm hmm.
--we had major paperwork and construction started December 2014.
01:10:31
Hmm. So--
And then 2016, April, the women moved in.
The women moved in. So how did you find the women-- how involved were you in this process?
Oh, I was, uh, uh, yeah, firsthand. So first we went to Women Aware, which is the shelter.
Mm hmm.
And we asked, “Who do you have?”
So that’s the shelter. Talk to me more about Women Aware.
So shelter is only thirty to ninety days.
Mm hmm.
A woman can stay there for thirty to ninety days. Afterwards, she has to find something.
[ Annotation 2 ]
Mm hmm.
You know, and a lot of woman don’t find some place to go.
Mm hmm.
Cause they can’t afford it. They don’t have any financials, I mean--
Right.
You know if you’re talking to a woman whose, you know, income level is much lower or no income--
Mm hmm.
--and she’s left husband or boyfriend--
Mm hmm.
--or intimate partner because of abuse, where does she go?
Right.
So recidivism is very high.
Mm hmm.
‘Cause you return back to your abuser, especially if you’re on the lower income scale.
[ Annotation 3 ]
Mm hmm. Do you have any statistics off of the top of your head about that?
People debate this.
Ok.
And the reason is that the shelter doesn’t want to say eighty percent are going back--
Mm hmm.
--or eighty percent are-- don’t have a place to go.
Mm hmm.
They want to have eighty percent have a place to go.
Right.
And even if you’re talking about twenty percent of who has been in shelter--
Mm hmm.
-- twenty percent from 250, well how many is that? Fifty?
Right. Fifty people who back. Huh.
That’s a huge amount.
Right. Right.
How many housing-- how much housing do we have? Of long-term housing? Affordable housing?
Mm hmm.
In the state of New Jersey for just the fifty that we’re talking about?
Mm hmm.
Thirteen apartments.
Mmm. Hmm. And they’re here, or they’re--
No. There’s ten here.
Ten here. Yeah.
And three at, um, the Women Aware run.
Oh, ok.
And that’s the entire in the entire state.
So Women Aware--
--is the name of our shelter.
Ok. And the shelter is--
--also has some long term housing.
Has some long term-- so it’s a shelter with long term housing?
Some long term housing.
Some. Ok. Um, ok. So, and how did you understand that it needed to be long term housing. Like, what did you--
--Um--
--come to make that?
Well first of all, I felt that long term housing would be better for anybody.
Mm hmm.
And, um, I-- I just had-- I don’t even remember.
Mm hmm.
I just, you know, long term housing would be better for anybody.
Right.
If you go through, like, a two-year process like-- like that would be transitional housing is a two-year process.
Mm hmm.
And there’s not even enough programs like that, and that’s why they’re cutting those programs back.
[ Annotation 4 ]
Mm hmm.
Because they realize they, just, on a wheel--
Mm hmm.
--of trying to get a job and find other housing. And there’s no healing possible in that stressful situation. The anxiety level for that two-year process is very high.
Right.
You’re just, you’re just, you know, that your, you, your time is going the minute that you walk into short term housing.
[ Annotation 2 ]
Mm hmm.
So, what are you gonna be able to do?
Right. Right. Yes.
You don’t even have the tools, many of them, to go to work.
Right.
And some of them are so beaten up, how can you even work?
Mm hmm.
So, like, we had one woman who came for two years. She was in bed.
Mm hmm.
(doorbell rings)
Do you want to put that on pause?
Yeah.
(doorbell rings)
01:14:15
(Audio File 2)
00:00:00
Ok. We’re recording again. So you were talking about, um, why you that-- that, um, long term housing made more sense.
Yeah. I just, huh. I’m trying to think back to those days. I mean, it-- first of all, that’s what they’re offering--
Mm hmm.
--you know, money for. And second of all, I felt that long term housing would be better anyway.
Mm hmm.
And, you know, I guess, that’s all I can say.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, there was no, you know, they were-- they were not offering to make more transitional housing. And I always thought that transitional housing was crazy.
Mm hmm.
Um.
And then, so you were also talking about, um, so the women came in in 2016.
So, we, in 2015 in the summer we started soliciting-- cause we needed ten names.
Mm hmm.
And everybody was like you’re never gonna find ten names. And we, we interviewed a lot of different individuals.
Mm hmm.
You know, we had some referred from Women Aware. Some from, um there’s a local, very good, um, case manager, social worker, who--
Mm hmm.
--knows everybody on the street.
Mm hmm.
And he was really instrumental in directing a few individuals our way. Um, some of those individuals had backgrounds, and you know, oh, it was problematic but um--
Mm hmm.
-- but any case.
What was the-- what’s an example of, like, a problematic background? Can you talk about that or…
Well we’re supposed to when we do the intake--
Mm hmm.
--get a background check. We thought that Edison Housing Authority-- the, ooh, I shoulda described that-- the Housing Authority was doing that and they didn’t.
Mm hmm.
They were going through some transition at that time.
Hmm.
So this person woulda been found out that she was wanted in two states.
Hmm. Mm hmm.
So she was inviting this guy to stay with her.
Mm hmm.
And he had a mental breakdown.
Mmm.
And basically cut himself--
Hmm.
--with a knife.
Mm hmm. Wow.
Yeah. He was rolled out in a stretcher.
Ooh.
That’s how bad it was. The police, you know, were involved. The police took down the information.
Mm hmm.
And this all happened in the first six weeks of our being open. My husband almost lynched me.
(laughs)
Cause he was like, “What the hell did we do?”
Mm hmm.
Like, I thought they would all be nice and perfect and wonderful, and you know, everybody would behave themselves. And, I was, after the first six weeks--
So wait. So this woman that you’re talking about…
Had moved in.
She had moved in.
Yes.
And--
And--
--wasn’t screened and--
She, she wasn’t screened.
Right.
We had done the intake, and she had seemed very nice. She had this guy living with her.
Mm hmm.
You know, and, and, it just was really-- and, I guess it happened in like April, May-- end of May.
Mm hmm.
And after this first six weeks, we had so much happening. Getting calls all night long. And my husband-- cause we didn’t realize the level of need.
Yes.
And, you know, having this idea of housing.
And who is in charge at this point?
Me. Well I’m like the number one call.
Uh huh.
But we had a case manager that was hired by the landlord.
Mm hmm.
And, and, until we were transitioning, until we, Town Clock, had enough money to hire our own--
Mm hmm.
--tran-- you know, you know. We were trying to figure out--
-- And that person is Christine now?
Well there was somebody before her.
Ok. Got it.
Yeah. Yeah. And once we hired her--
Mm hmm.
--it was a lot of negotiation.
Mm hmm.
So I mean, and then we tried to figure out, what’s the relationship with Bergen County’s case manager?
Mm hmm.
And he was getting paid fifty dollars an hour, and we were offering this other woman, you know, twenty dollars an hour. But she was doing all the work. It was a, a, mess.
(laughs)
But you know, we-- I had never set up something like this before.
Mm hmm.
You know, they had.
Yeah.
But they weren’t-- they were very hands off.
00:04:18
And it strikes me that this is a very different kind of work for you too.
Oh yeah. I’m not case mana-- I’m not a social worker.
Right. Right.
Yeah. I, I had no idea of what I was getting myself into. And so, you know, I was reading.
Mm hmm.
And I was talking with different practitioners. I was talking with, um, different experts in the field. But people don’t have experience with long term housing of all-- everybody in one heap.
Mm hmm.
And that brings on different problems. It’s its own kitten caboodle.
Talk more about that.
Well, like, and especially when they all come in at the same time. Their level of need for support is like 500 percent.
Mm hmm.
And you have fifty percent.
Yeah.
And, and, like she was only-- the case manager was only hired for ten hours a week.
Mmm.
That was… not possible.
Mm hmm.
That was… stupid. But that’s what we had in money.
Mm hmm.
We, you know, we were still-- I was getting paid less than 1000 dollars a month.
Mm hmm.
You know, and I’m working this part-time. And I was working more than twenty hours a week.
Mm hmm.
You know, so it was like… (sighs)
Right.
So it was a high learning curve.
Yeah.
And we, we did it.
Mm hmm.
We made it through. We--
So, so you had to interview people, and, and--
Oh, that was the year before.
The year before.
And we interviewed people and we got to know them.
Mm hmm.
And they were living in different locations. You know, some on-- not on the street but like on friends’ houses.
Mm hmm.
On the sofa, sharing apartments somewhat, but not able to pay the apartment portion.
Mm hmm.
Living with family--
Mm hmm.
--in a one bedroom apartment with four people.
Mm hmm.
You know, that’s not appropriate.
Right.
Different generations. Three generations in one, one bedroom apartment.
Mm hmm.
You know, not gonna lead to health.
So, what were the things that you were looking for, for the residents?
There’s four things that they have to meet- four criteria.
Mm hmm.
One, that they are homeless.
Mm hmm.
Two, a survivor of domestic violence.
Mm hmm.
Three, have some co-occurring disability and that can be anxiety, PTSD.
Mm hmm.
Depression. They have all of that. Everyone of them has that.
Mm hmm.
Four, uh, low income, no income.
Mm hmm. And did you-- how did you make these criteria?
That’s, that’s required. That’s prescribed.
Ok. That’s--
Yeah, so like when you, do something like this you have to work with all the local county--
Mm hmm.
--social services. And they prescribe all of these things in order to have the program and get money and funding.
Mm hmm.
So, yeah.
So, ok. And then, um, uh, so you get people that fit the bill. (laughs)
(laughs) Yeah.
And then, sounds like a couple didn’t-- had to leave.
Had to leave.
Yeah.
Was very bad. Yeah.
00:07:37
Yeah.
We had that first woman, so she was then arrested and we never saw her again.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, and then, that, that apartment needed to be re-- reupped. And then we had another person who got-- went-- accepted a position-- she was, a, you know, she was a little bit newer.
Mm hmm.
And she went back to, uh, an, uh, hotel room that she was living in.
Mm hmm.
And she was found by her abuser and killed.
Mmm. Wow.
So she had just, like, so her family came down and got the stuff out again. It was horrible.
Mm hmm.
So, I mean, this is all, like-- and so, we had somebody else move in. We had an interviewing process.
Mm hmm.
She ended up to be, she needed more services than we could provide because she was-- her mental health was really very complicated.
Mm hmm.
And she was not taking her meds and she got involved with a drug group here.
[ Annotation 5 ]
Mmm.
And started having-- she was the location where the drugs were used.
Mmm.
And I could see that on all the cameras and, so we had to get her out.
Mm hmm.
And we had to deal with her family, cause her family, was like, “But, you know..” I’m like she needs help, but not where-- this is independent living.
[ Annotation 5 ]
Right. Right.
So you gotta be able to live independently. She can’t.
Yeah.
She’s not taking her meds. She’s not healthy. We can’t be that for her.
Mm hmm.
She needs to find-- you need to find another location for her, and unfortunately, that’s really not here.
And this was all brand new for you! Figuring out..
Oh yeah, I had to learn everything. Uh, everything. We had to--
Figuring out what the boundaries are. Figuring out…
Figuring out relationships. Figuring out that things could trigger people.
Mm hmm.
So when we had the reupping again in February for their leasing agreements, we had a group of them say, “But this isn’t right. We have this housing. Why do we have to reup?”
Mm hmm.
“Why is it-- you changed some rules and regulations!” No, that was HUD. HUD changed some rules and regulations but you’re a-- almost free apartment.
Right. Right.
So you have to agree or you’re out!
Yeah. Mm hmm.
They had a-- they wanted to have a tenants’ meeting against us.
Mm hmm.
Mutiny on the bounty.
And was just signing different stuff, kinda, or… (laughs)
It was-- it was um, anxiety. High anxiety.
Mm hmm.
And thinking that they’re not gonna be approved.
00:10:03
Mmm.
And that they’d be out on their ears. And it was, it was bizarre. I mean I had literally one resident scream at me as the door to the elevator closed, “YOU ARE HORRIBLE! YOU ARE HORR--” She signed the agreements finally.
Mm hmm.
And then threw them at me.
Mm hmm.
And then got back on the, and, and just because of her anxiety was out of the roof.
Mm hmm.
And then we figured out, ok maybe we need to sit down with them and work through them with, you know, their reupping.
Mm hmm.
You know.
Right. That needs to be much…
Cause this is anxiety producing and they’re scared.
Mm hmm.
And, this year, it’s gone by like (brushing hands together). Cause it’s the fourth year.
Mm hmm.
Most of them have been here. We have eight of the originals.
Mm hmm.
We have two that have-- are newer.
Mm hmm.
And, um, so, yeah.
Hmm. And so, can you-- you talk about healing? You--
Mm hmm.
--and the, the, this space allows them to heal because they don’t have--
Right.
--and can you-- do you see that happening? And--
Yes.
Yeah.
I have definite-- ok. So when they first come in here, they are all over the place.
Mm hmm.
The emotions are high. They’re crying.
Mm hmm.
They need to have therapy.
Mm hmm.
They, you know.
And is that provided? Like how does that--
Now we have therapy here.
Mm hmm.
We are providing it. It’s one of our programs.
Mm hmm.
Um, but we didn’t until the summer.
Mmm.
Because we recognized a year ago-- there’s things happening--
Mm hmm.
--like misbehaving, like nastiness, like all sorts of like, people falling apart.
Mm hmm.
Like, people doing things and I was like “Christine.” Case Manager. “Something’s going on.”
Mm hmm.
Like, this is more than just, this is like eight people, like, really acting out.
Mm hmm.
There’s something that’s happening. What is it? And we looked through, and I said, “So are they going to therapy?” And we went through it. “Nope, nope, nope, nope, yes, nope, nope, nope, yes, no, no. no.” And I’m like, “Well there’s our answer. Why are they not going?”
[ Annotation 6 ]
Mm hmm.
The barriers to go are problem-- are lots.
Mm hmm.
First of all, HUD has cut back the subsidies for, for therapy to, um, half an hour every three weeks or something like that.
[ Annotation 6 ]
Mm hmm.
Like, are you-- no. That’s not gonna happen.
Right.
And it’s not here onsite.
Yeah.
So it’s somewhere out there that they’re going to for half an hour session with children, dealing with children. You know what it means. You know, childcare. Are you getting in depth? And are you late? Cause you’re driving and you don’t know where you’re going and you have to find park-- all of that.
And it’s half an hour.
They can find free stuff here in the city of New Brunswick.
Mm hmm.
Two blocks, four blocks away. But it’s in a location that’s dark.
Mm hmm.
That other people are getting free counseling, and they are sketchy or scary.
Mm hmm.
So people don’t wanna go.
Yeah.
They’re like no. And, and if you don’t connect with your person… then you’re like I don’t like that person.
Mm hmm.
So it’s like all these things. And I’m like, ok, we were working with Dr. Debbie Roussard. She was like, uh, clinically supervising, um, Christine and me.
Mm hmm.
And then she moved away from that and we got a different person, but I said let’s go back to Debbie and find out if she would be willing to come on board and do-- offer, um, uh, therapy here on location.
Mm hmm.
And she agreed and she’s, you know, giving at a price that you couldn’t find anywhere else.
Mm hmm.
And this is her specialty, working with, um, uh, survivors or people with substance abuse issues or, you know, trauma.
Mm hmm.
Trauma informed. And, um, it’s working better.
Mm hmm. It’s working better (laughs). You’re not seeing..
Yeah. I mean, it’s not like, it’s not like, a hundred percent participation.
Uh huh.
It’s probably seventy percent participation, but I have some individuals who are going weekly.
Mm hmm.
Which they never would have gotten elsewhere.
Right. Right.
And the-- for a full hour.
Yeah.
Alright, so that’s huge.
Yeah. So the therapy, you’re finding, is helping. It’s helping the, sort of, in fighting and um--
There’s still occasional fighting.
Yeah.
But you know, it’s more, it’s occasional.
Yeah.
I’m not getting, like, text messages, like I had. Like, hours of text messages.
Mm hmm.
Because of fights.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not happen-- hasn’t happen-- knock on wood. (knocks on wood)
(laughs)
Hasn’t happened in about six months.
00:14:43
Uh huh. Wow. That’s really interesting. And, so, um, so that’s one, one part of the---
—and then another person, like, like I said, she-- for two years, in bed.
Mm hmm.
Four times, set off the fire alarm because she forgot that she put food on the stove.
Mmm.
And it burned.
Mm hmm. Yeah.
And the smoke-- this smoke alarm--
Mm hmm.
--one time was the fire alarm.
Wow.
And we were getting worried. We were like, what do we do with her?
Mm hmm.
Cause like, for two years, it was-- it happened every couple of months, and we would be like, is it-- it’s really that the depression…
Mm hmm.
The meds, the… right.
Mm hmm.
Then she started slowly coming out it.
Mm hmm.
Like two years.
Yeah. Yeah. Now do these women-- what-- do they have… like, I’m sure they’re all doing different things during the day. But do-- how many of them have jobs or how many of them--
Um, there’s different ones that have different jobs.
Yeah.
So I have one that quit her job and, um, went in to get a masters.
Mm hmm.
And so she’s getting her masters and we’ve given her a scholarship.
Mm hmm.
Part of the scholarship fund and so forth and so on. So she’s gonna be finishing the end of this summer.
Wow. That’s great.
So two and a half years.
Uh huh.
Another, we helped for pay for a, um, a certificate program--
Mm hmm.
--where she learned phlebotomy.
Mm hmm.
And also we helped her pay for driving lessons.
Mm hmm.
And, um, she’s working, and she will be completing those, um, certifications in the next couple of months and will start in that profession.
Mm hmm.
So, and, we are encouraging others to go back to school.
Mm hmm.
One started a job, and she’s basically paying her entire rent now.
Mm hmm.
Cause they only pay thirty percent of their income.
Mm hmm.
But because her income is so high, she’s paying the full amount.
Mm hmm.
And, but, it’s not able to make it out yet.
Mm hmm.
It’s not at a level that you can afford to live--
--In a… yeah.
Yeah.
Um that’s, that’s great. Um, yeah.
Um. Now, you know when-- we’ve also seen that some of the kids are acting up.
Mm hmm.
And that’s where the problem is occurring.
Mm hmm.
And so, some of the women are dealing with heavy child issues.
Mm hmm.
Children issues. So that’s, you know-- that’s where--
Children experiencing trauma in different ways and growing…
Exactly and expressing that.
Yeah. So do they-- do they-- do the kids have therapy here too?
Not yet.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Not yet. I’m not sure if we need to add that cause they-- that usually happens better off site I would think.
Mm hmm.
And I don’t know, you know. But they, they can usually get free therapy.
Mm hmm.
And mothers will go for that. They won’t go for themselves.
00:17:43
Mm hmm (laughs). I get that. Um, what-- I’m wondering how your faith helps you with this work--
(phone rings)
Um.
(phone rings)
Unconditional love--
Mm hmm.
--for me.
Mm hmm.
Because, you know, when we wanna throw somebody out because they’ve really messed up…
Mm hmm.
I go back to-- ok, can we still love this person?
Mm hmm.
Can we still say we’re gonna offer you an olive branch to try to work on yourself and come back and stay and really-- and not enable.
Mm hmm.
But to empower.
Mm hmm.
So that’s really where I see the love of Christ. For me, in my expression of faith is to offer that hand again, and again and, you know, really until that person says, “I can’t. I’m not ready,” or “I wanna leave.”
[ Annotation 7 ]
Mm hmm.
Or “I’ve just really fallen down too much.”
Mm hmm.
You know. We really tried to work with one resident who had her abusive boyfriend move in with her.
Mmm.
The moment he got out of jail, and we had just gotten her a part time job.
Mm hmm.
First one she’s had in years.
Mm hmm.
And she was on really, on a really, really good track. And she let him move back in. And we approached her for four months and said, “Kick him out. You can’t have him living here with you.”
Yeah.
“He’s smoking. He’s smoking pot. He’s, you know, he’s not nice to you. You will lose housing-- you will lose every-- all of this support.” And she’s like, “No. I want him.” And we tried so hard to meet with her and I was so heartbroken for her.
Mm hmm.
Cause she ended up on the street.
Mm hmm.
But I couldn’t have that here.
Yeah.
What he was doing was making other people sick with his smoking.
Mm hmm.
And, you know, he’s just not allowed to be living here.
Is that a-- a rule. Like, what’s--
Yes. The voucher’s for them or their family member, meaning child.
Mm hmm.
Not for anybody else.
Mm hmm.
This is a huge program. I mean, they can’t-- this is costing, you know, it’s a fair market value. Your, your apartment is worth over 1000 dollars.
Mm hmm.
So, you know, a two bedroom apartment is worth over 2000 dollars.
Yeah.
And you’re getting it for free or you’re only paying thirty percent of your income.
Mm hmm.
So you might only be paying fifty dollars for 2000- over…
Right.
And no utilities.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.
And all of these other benefits--
Mm hmm.
--that are here. That come to you. That’s a value of each about approximately 10,000 dollars.
Right.
A person.
That’s amazing. Um, do you have any thoughts about-- sort of what breaks-- have you seen-- you-- cause this seems like the cycle, right?
Yeah, there is a cycle.
And-- and this is put in place to break the cycle because it’s stable.
Right.
00:21:18
Do you-- can you talk more about that?
It’s gonna take years.
Yeah.
To break the cycle.
Yeah.
You know, to make any shift in a human being, we’re really talking about them working on themselves.
Mm hmm.
Down to the deep core.
Mm hmm.
And a lot of them are young women. They wanna be in a relationship.
Yeah.
And, you know, relationships are where they’re most vulnerable.
Mm hmm.
And you know, also where they don’t like other women, either.
Mm hmm.
Cause they don’t-- they have trust issues with women.
Mm hmm.
And, so there’s, you know, I see a little bit of pattern, and I can’t-- I don’t have-- I wanted to have a research project on some of these things that we’re seeing.
Mm hmm.
As patterns.
Mm hmm.
And, and not all of our women are from an intimate partner that they’ve been abused.
Mm hmm.
Some have been abused by family of origin.
Mm hmm.
Others have been abused by-- they were human trafficked.
Mm hmm.
So it’s-- there’s different things that are in amidst all of that.
Mmm. Mm hmm.
Did I--I didn’t answer your question.
No… I-- I don’t even know if it has an answer. That’s the thing. It seems like… (laughs)
What was your question?
Well, no, the question was, I mean it was just a broad thing of how--
Oh, how long?
How do you address the-- the cycle? And how does it--
Each.. alright, so every six months the case manager sits down and does a service plan.
Mm hmm.
So, what are your goals? What are you-- how do you wanna get there?
Mm hmm.
How can we help you?
Mm hmm.
Right. And so those are things, and we go and review it every six months.
Mm hmm.
You know. And I-- you know, the problem is that the case manager is here only eighteen hours. Now if she was here full time, she could be sitting down weekly and saying…
Mm hmm.
“So, have you worked on your plan?” So, when they apply for scholarships…
Mm hmm.
You know, one of them, you know, they’re working on their plan.
Mm hmm.
That’s a much better measurement. Like, I-- I won’t accept their application if they have not-- I’ve not really scrutinized with them, are you gonna do this?
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
And I’m not just gonna give out money for nothing.
Right.
This is a lot of money.
Yeah.
You know you get 1000 dollars, 2000 dollars handed to you.
Mm hmm.
Well not to you, but to the institution that you’re going to. I don’t want you to be, so, I don’t know if you’ll like it anymore.
Right. Right. Right.
Figure it out.
00:23:38
Yeah.
Um, I’m tough. They all know.
Mm hmm.
I’m tough, but I am generous.
Mm hmm.
You come to me and say, “I absolutely don’t know how to pay for something like this.” I find somebody.
Mm hmm.
So, most of the residents have never paid for a diaper.
Mm hmm.
Or wipes for the child.
Yeah.
I’ve gotten people to donate diapers on a monthly basis.
Mm hmm.
That’s huge.
Yeah.
You see the food pantry.
Right.
Clothing pantry now looks a little messy, but, I mean…
Yeah.
They go in there. Some people brought-- we got a donation from… clothing that I can’t say from whom.
Mm hmm.
But it was from a, um, a real designer.
Mm hmm. Wow.
You know, and it was in there. It was beautiful stuff. It was totally new, never worn.
Yeah.
Gorgeous stuff. I mean, you know, they go in, they go, “Susan, this is what I got out of the closet. Can you imagine it had tags on it?”
Mm hmm.
And there’s a lot of people who donate that type of stuff.
Yeah.
Um… you know we’re trying now to get a stroller for somebody.
Mm hmm.
Because, you know, the baby’s grown out of the stroller.
Mm hmm.
So, um, sometimes, those donated.
Mm hmm.
So that works. Yeah. I mean--
Yeah.
--There’s a lot that we work on.
Right.
I try, though, to be careful of the asks.
Mm hmm.
That they’re really bonified, or they can’t get it someplace else.
Right. Right.
So, like, two women were connected with cars.
Mm hmm. Oh connected-- yeah, ok. Got it. (laughs)
They were used cars.
Mm hmm.
But they were much better shape than what they had.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s-- so you’re providing all these different ways, and then how do you, you know looking ahead, in a place that will need long term funding, how do you even-- is it just?
It’s like eating a piece of cake one bite at a time.
Yeah.
You can only do it that way, Lauren.
Mm hmm.
You know, like, the fundraisers are important. Getting the word out. But what we’ve learned is that we have to bring up the awareness, the advocacy portion of it.
[ Annotation 8 ]
Mm hmm.
And the more that we do, the more that we realize that the advocacy is, is really pertinent.
Mm hmm.
So that Being Brave event, and, and we’re expanding.
Mm hmm.
So we’re doing that house.
Mm hmm.
It’s gonna be our first expansion.
Oh wow, I didn’t realize that. Ok.
Yeah.
00:25:59
Uh huh.
And I have other plans for other expansion. And I’ve been approached by, um, by the, a DVR team.
Mm hmm.
I haven’t even told John this.
Mm hmm.
That they want to build affordable housing complex for survivors---
[ Annotation 9 ]
Mm hmm.
--in Woodbridge.
Mm hmm.
So I have a meeting in February with the mayor--
Mm hmm.
--and the, uh, domestic violence response team folks.
Mmm. Mm hmm. So… the, the idea of this long term housing being different and being the right--
--A better fit.
A better fit. I think that that’s you know, that’s, that’s why I’m here like that’s (laughs) that’s, um…
Why would it be?
Yeah.
Right. Because you cannot heal when somebody puts you on a clock.
Mm hmm.
And says in two years you have to be out and healed and put together and all of that. Half-- two years, I might be just getting out of bed and now figuring out I can go back to school.
Mm hmm.
I’m gonna develop my, my talent. I’m singing.
Mm hmm.
Um, I, you know, I apply for a scholarship so I can get music lessons. I’m learning how to put up a website--
Mm hmm.
--or a Facebook page. You know.
Yeah.
That takes time.
Right. Right.
I’m dealing with a, a son that, that needs, you know, more attention because he also went through the abuse with me.
Mm hmm.
So, how do I deal with that and that he doesn’t, you know, fall off, you know, become a high school drop out?
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
That’s my greatest success. Is that that person-- that very same person that took two years--
Mm hmm.
--son did-- had major problems.
Mm hmm.
Did graduate. Is now in college.. and passed his first semester.
Mm hmm.
With A’s and B’s. Who-- we never would have thought it.
Mm hmm. So it has gener-- it’s not just the person-- it has generational--
It-- it’s ending that cycle.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That’s where you’re ending-- with the kids not repeating it. I mean the mother still might go back to a bad relationship.
Mm hmm.
Or might not go back to a relationship at all, but has-- knows what tools she needs--
Mm hmm.
--to survive.
Mm hmm.
And can say, “Ok. I am starting a new life and I’m getting a job and I, and I can eventually move out of Dina’s Dwellings.”
Mm hmm.
“And get maybe another affordable housing but I don’t need all of this intensity.”
Right.
You know, I can still be productive elsewhere.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But you haven’t seen that yet because no one--
Yes, I did have one woman go leave.
Oh, ok.
Yeah.
Yeah. Talk about that.
Yeah she left about two and a half years after being here.
Mm hmm.
And she’s-- she wanted to move in with her boyfriend. And she was ready.
Mm hmm.
And, and she was like, you guys, I wanna have a life with my boyfriend. And I’m like, good, go for it. You got a job.
Mm hmm.
You know, you’re stable as much as you are. You know.
Mm hmm.
Do I think she’ll need more help down the line? Yes.
Mm hmm.
But for now, this is where she’s at.
Yeah.
And she’s ready to go and she left and that was it.
Mm hmm.
Um, yeah.
00:29:17
Huh. That’s great. Um, how do you deal with all the trauma that you (laughs) are--experience?
Um, (sighs). Well it’s gotten easier--
Mm hmm.
--to deal. Because I know, you know. But I do have clinical supervision--
Mm hmm.
--here. We-- Christine and I meet on a monthly basis with an outside supervisor--
Mm hmm.
--who reviews all the cases with us and talks about how we can strategize to work with so and so or so and so.
Mm hmm.
And what things we could do or implement.
Mm hmm.
So that we also, you know, reflect on are we doing the right things.
Mm hmm.
And we, we meet on a weekly basis.
Mm hmm.
And Christine and I have a very good relationship. We talk a lot with one another.
Mm hmm.
About where we’re at, whether we find somebody’s actions triggering. Um, angering.
Mm hmm.
Frustrating. You know. We call each out. You know. “Well you know, you could have been a little bit more gentler.” Or something like that.
Mm hmm.
But we trust each other to say that.
Mm hmm.
So, um, we’re a very good team. You know, that’s, that’s key.
Yeah. Yeah I can see-- she seems amazing. (laughs) And so informed and it’s-- was sort of thrilling to ask the questions in the superhero thing. I really wish that whole conversation had been taped just because hearing people kinda come to conclusions about them being superheroes, and-- it was just, uh, very life affirming, and I don’t know. Anyway, um, so ok. I think that…
That’s a lot.
Yeah. It’s a- it’s a ton. Um.
I hope you don’t go into everything. You don’t have to do my life history. (laughs)
No… I think that the biggest thing that I feel like I heard from your life history was just the adaptability.
Mm hmm.
Being able to throw yourself into these totally different situations and develop relationships, bring up a community. And you’re doing it again. (laughs)
I know. I know.
00:31:32
Um.
I develop a community.
Yeah.
That’s really what I do.
Yeah.
That’s, that’s my-- and I see that as the community of-- if you go into the gospels and you, you read, you know, how did Paul go around or Peter or any of them?
Mm hmm.
They just went out. And they just started talking to people.
Mm hmm.
You know what, and I talk.
Mm hmm.
That’s what I say to everybody. Put me in front of people, I talk.
Mm hmm.
I’m not a shy person.
Mm hmm.
Necessarily. You know, if I know my roll, then I do it. You know.
Mm hmm.
And, and I will-- and I will tell you the story about this.
Mm hmm.
And I can tell you the story about lots of things.
Yeah.
Um, and that’s what you pay me for.
Right.
You know. Sure, there’s a lot of this, the table and--
The technical.
--writing grants and…
What do you think the biggest challenges are? Just so we’re all…
Grants are a lot of work… for very minimal return.
Mm hmm.
They do, though, keep you honest.
Mm hmm.
In-- they do regulations.
Mm hmm.
Like, you know, the county grants are forty pages.
Mm hmm.
And you have to explain programming, you have to explain your research.
Mmm.
You have to have read something.
Mm hmm.
You’re not just putting- oh we need money! No.
[ Annotation 10 ]
Right.
Forty pages.
Wow.
And also, evaluations are included on that from the program.
Mm hmm.
From the residents. You know, you know, how we’re doing, how they’re doing.
Mm hmm.
Um, yeah. It’s extremely long.
So you’d say grant writing more than just dealing with the day to day--
Oh, no.
--stuff of the residents? (laughs). Or what…
I can roll with the punches on emotional ups and downs--
Yeah.
--and craziness. I mean, at the end of the day, I’m tired.
Yeah.
And there are like-- I can be short with people.
Mm hmm.
You know, especially if, like, I’m at a meeting at eight o’clock at night.
Mm hmm.
And it’s, you know, somebody’s pushing my buttons.
Mm hmm.
But, on the whole-- the first year was the toughest. I didn’t know what the heck I was doing.
Mm hmm.
And I knew I was in over my head.
Mm hmm.
I really was. I was really in over my head. The second year I did better. The third year, fine.
00:33:50
Mm hmm.
And it helped to have Christine. You know, the first, um, the first year we had another, uh, case manager. She was very well trained, very good.
Mm hmm.
But she was as nervous as I was (laughs). And that’s not a good thing.
Yeah. So then--
Christine’s calm basically. And she’s also worked in, uh, residential settings.
Mm hmm.
So that expertise helped.
Yes.
A lot. And, and she also takes no prisoners.
Uh huh.
So that was good because I was unsure about how much I could really, like, draw the line.
Mm hmm.
And there-- and we’ve come to better places on how to negotiate with the resident.
Mm hmm.
You need healing and you’re not getting it.
Mm hmm.
And what you’re doing now is not helping you.
Mm hmm.
So, here’s a plan. Or you can reject the plan. But the choice is you might be out.
Right.
So, but, we’re getting better doing that.
Right.
And following up and stuff. And that took years.
Yeah.
And so, what we’d really like to do would be to advise other locations. I don’t need to go building around the country.
Mm hmm.
But I’d like to advise people. This is how you do it, this is how-- this is your-- this is how to make the thing.
Mm hmm.
Cause that’s in and of itself, it’s own thing.
Right.
And then here’s how to develop a program that has hand and foot and can really work, and you’re not gonna feel like, oh my freakin’ God, what did I do?
(laughs)
And your husband is about ready to divorce you because he thinks you’re insane. And he, you know, could almost, like, just throw in the towel and say, you know, “I don’t wanna hear anything more about these ladies.” You know, “They’re-- this is crazy.”
Mm hmm.
And not understand why.
00:35:48
Right. And, um, so what-- what, if you were to advise other people, what are the tenants of, like…
That you need to have really-- case managers-- so the amount of people-- double the amount of time that you expect--
Mm hmm.
--for the case management.
Mm hmm.
Add a therapist.
Mm hmm.
Because they will not go to therapy.
Mm hmm.
Cause everybody-- once their basic need is fit-- made.
“I’m ok. I’m a mom” (laughs) or…
Why, why, why do I need to look into all of that garbage? I want to put that away. I want to pack it away.
Yeah.
But that’s what’s killing you.
Mm hmm.
You have to unpack it, walk in it, throw it around.
Mm hmm.
Roll around in it, and then finally you can get-- be done with it.
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. It’s a journey. That’s, that’s a journey also of faith.
Uh huh.
Same type of thing. The most you-- the more intensely you get into your faith, the more you realize how little you understand but are really getting out of it.
Mm hmm.
You really do. It’s, it’s a weird thing. But that’s the spiritual side of things. You know--
Mm hmm.
--that’s where the spirit is. And I have brought in some, my faith, with different individuals. You know--
Mm hmm.
-- I’ll say, “Put on the armor of God.”
00:37:02
Mm hmm.
Or you, you know, “God is with you. You’re never alone and I’m also with you.”
[ Annotation 7 ]
Mm hmm.
You know. Those types of tenants-- because sometimes, you know, especially when they’re going to face their abuser in court.
Mm hmm.
For child custody.
Mm hmm.
How-- where’s that?
Yeah. So what are some root-- uh, like, yeah. Court seems like a, a-- I’m thinking about things that they-- common experiences that they will have. What, what are some of those? Court is one.
Court. Um, child, uh, custody. You know.
Mm hmm.
Handing off the child. I mean…
Mm hmm.
That… having children with your abuser is the best way to have-- keep in contact with you and reopen those wounds over and over and over again.
Mm hmm.
The shenanigans that go by.
Right.
“No I can’t do it today. Why did you tell her this? You shouldn’t have done this.” You know, “He needs this.”
Right.
You know, “I have money. He doesn’t wanna be with you. He wants to be with me.” You know, uh.
Right.
Every single-- that-- that’s the hardest piece.
Yeah.
That’s the hardest piece-- the children.
Mm hmm. Um, yeah that’s interesting. I’m trying to think… is there anything else? Are we forgetting anything? (laughs)
Oh, I don’t know.
Let me just look-- yeah. Are things better with your relationship now?
Oh yeah, with my husband? Yeah.
(laughs)
That was, that was, the worst year. I-- he still says, “I know who’s calling you.”
(laughs)
Especially it’s a certain hour at night. You know, it’s like, ok.
Yeah.
And it happens on weekends.
Yeah. You’re on call literally 24/7.
Yeah. Yeah.
Um, I think this is good. I think we have plenty, plenty of stuff.
Yeah, you do have plenty. Yeah, yeah.
Um, ok.
00:39:04