Mark Hopkins
Camden resident Mark Hopkins grew up in an abusive household and was incarcerated as a young man. He graduated from Rutgers, where he was a prominent student activist.
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Mark Hopkins Podcast
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: “State of New Jersey: Senate, No. 2055, S2055 1R,” New Jersey State Legislature, February 26, 2018.
Learn More [2]: Colleen O’Dea, “NJ Close to Giving Prisoners Access to State Financial Aid for College Courses,” NJ Spotlight News, July 2, 2018.
Learn More [3]: Jiles Ship, “By Educating Inmates, Prisons Can Become a Safer Place for Everyone,” nj.com, July 23, 2018.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Mira Abou Elezz
New Brunswick, New Jersey
Interview conducted in 2018
Transcription by Kether Tomkins
Annotations by Brandon McKoy
I am Mira Abou-Elezz, I am a journalist on the 37 Voices team, I am here with–
Mark Hopkins.
Mark Hopkins, and we are at Alexander library at Rutgers University in New Brunswick campus. My alma mater, it's nice being back. Mark, where are you from?
I'm from Camden, New Jersey.
Camden, New Jersey. Alright. Could you tell me what it was like growing up in Camden?
Well, so I grew up with um, originally with my mother and father. My father was a um, big-time, like, drug lord in Camden, so we had, like, a really nice house with cameras all over the place. We had, like, house servants. Somebody that would come in the house– there was a guy, like a handyman, was, like, pretty much my nanny, he was also like, my dad's number one customer. So yeah, grew up kinda like that. Um, but my mom had stopped working, so she started doing– basically the home-making job. So the only thing she did would be in the house all day. She used as well. So basically growing up, I was exposed to, basically drugs and guns, because my father always had to– obviously be protected, know what I’m saying. So he used to keep a lot of guns in different spots and the kids around the house would find those. And also when they would break down a whole bird, it would be like, on the table, like in the kitchen though, you know what I mean, it wasn’t like, let me go downstairs and do this in the basement. I don’t think we had a basement in that house. So growing up, I was, like, super protected, but I was like, really, like, well off, in terms of like, I never needed nothing to eat, I always had everything I wanted.
Um, my father, um, was suffering from his, um, alcohol abuse, so he started getting into it a lot more with my mother and that lead to a lot of domestic, um, violence. So my mother left the house and I stayed with my father, and then he got a new girlfriend. And then somewhere in there, I started living with my g– his mother, my grandmother. So she was a single mother, she had raised all her kids, and she was raising the grandkids that her kids couldn't take care of. Which was, like, three of us, so we all grew up under you know, her. She was this strong, older black woman that just, like, do everything right all day. You know what I mean, just come in the house, smoke cigarettes, drink beer, and talk shit type of thing, you know what I mean, and do the whole thing over again. But she took care of all of us by herself, paid all the bills by herself, and it was a decent home or whatever. So I stayed with her for a few years, I don't remember how old, until I was around, like, then my mother took me back, and it was basically me and my mother on our own, and that was me living a whole different life.
So now, I'm constantly thinking about the next meal, ‘cause my mother had a severe drug addiction. So, it wasn't to the point where she couldn’t be out of a job, she maintained a job as a working class mother, but she wouldn't be a type of mother from nine to five. She’ll be nine, five, come in, check in real quick, go right back out, and then I just kind of fend for myself. So. So I grew up in– under those conditions in the, um, in the home. Now school, I was– I got kicked out of school like three– the first three classes I was in, in kindergarten. I got kicked out of kindergarten three times, three elementary schools for different reasons. My grandmother that was taking care of me, she was actually, like, one of the heads of security to have a lot of time in, so she could go to whatever school she wants. So first what happened, she came to school, I went to a school she was at. So when I went to that school, I don't remember what happened but I hit the teacher? Oh, I threw a chair at a teacher, something of that nature, something along those lines. Then I got kicked out of there, and went to another school. I did something extremely inappropriate, I’m sure. I said something I wasn’t supposed to say, or whatever. Got kicked out of there, then I finally went to other school that was a little closer, where my cousins went. And then it was like, I was stable. And when I finally got stable, I was able to see if I even was like, intelligent or not. Because I hadn’t even showed that I had any capacity to read or nothing, ‘cause I got kicked out, like, the day I got there. Like that week. I never lasted more than a week.
So when I went there, my father actually registered me for the classes and he put me directly in first grade, so I had never even went to kindergarten when I was in there. Um, at this time, we know that I had ADHD, and I don't like to sit still. [Laughs]. But that wasn't addressed at the time, and they just was, like, alright, that’s shits because I’m like bad ass little kid all the time. So when I finally got settled, my dad made a mistake and put me in the first grade class but they didn’t, like, ever adjust it or anything. It wasn't a computer back then, it was all paper, so nobody wouldn't know unless somebody, like, really went over the documents. I did my first marking period in first grade, all A's. The second marking period comes around, and, um, they like, were doing something with age, where everyone had to say their age or some shit like that. And then I told them my age, and they was, like, wait what? And they kicked me out of first grade, and put me in kindergarten. It made no sense, I was doing all the homework. I clearly able to, like, follow through, I was doing everything I was supposed to do. They found out my age, put me in kindergarten. And when I got in kindergarten, they were doing less shit, so I had more time to get more in trouble, and be a class clown distraction, because of my ADHD, and it wasn’t challenging. So I got in trouble all the time. But it was like, to a smaller extent than other classes and other schools, ‘cause I probably got a beating a couple times, you know what I mean.
Whatever the case may be, that is when it started, when I realized, started to know that even though I was smart, or be like, oh, he’s bright, he is a bright child or whatever the case may be, my behavior is what they was always going to judge me by. Um, so eventually, um, my mother found, um, my mother had moved with me. And I had– we moved, I went to a school in um, in like an all Hispanic neighborhood. So basically like, when I was younger, right, I use to look like a Native American girl, because [laughs] I’m second generation. I’m second generation Native American. So like, that’s still a big chunk of, like, my genetics. So when I was younger, my eyes were mad lower, my face was a bit broader, and it wasn’t grown in right, yet, and I had long hair, I had super long hair. So when I went into those classes and whatnot, I was getting teased everyday and then I just was fighting like, constantly. I was always fighting ‘cause I also was black. So I was a [unclear] and I also looked like a girl. So, anyway. That led me to have a distinguished group of friends, that usually was, like, other girls in the classroom that was just like, cool, you feel me. And I had fought all the dudes and anytime there was like, an alpha male, I had to fight him, because I would be his first target. And he wouldn’t know anything about me, so he’d be like, alright, that’s somebody I can pick on. So he’d pick on me, I would have to fight him. And then of course, after I fight you, I don’t really want to be that cool with you, so I’d end up still hanging with girls, and I’d just go through that cycle constantly.
So anyway, um, eventually one time right, this is when my criminal career started. And I say that with air quotations. The classes were so dense with um, Hispanic students, Spanish-speaking students, that often most of the classes would be half in Spanish and half in English. So like, even during our lunch times, we would have like, a lunch lady that would come in and supervise us, and hand out the food, so she was also usually Spanish, and spoke all Spanish, like she didn't even speak English. So you just had to know Spanish, to like, follow through.
So one time, we was in class and somebody, like, made a joke. And we, like, all was, like, talking and making a joke about it, and whatever, but she just pointed me out, and she’s like, sit down, sit down, And I’m like, what? So I’m like, we’re kidding, what the fuck did I do? But she’s like, sit down, you gotta sit down. So I sit down, right, so now I'm mad, ‘cause she chose me and pointed me out. So I sat down, and I started crying ‘cause I felt attacked. And then–
What grade is this?
This is– third grade. ‘Cause I had Mrs– Yeah, this is third grade. So anyway, the student got up, the kid got up, his name is Julian. He got up, and he’s like, um, he’s like, hah-hah, that's why after school, we’re gonna jump you. I was like– [laughs]. So I was mad as hell. I was crying already, ‘cause my feelings was hurt, and then he wa– then he laughed at me ‘cause I was crying, and then said that’s why after school, we’re gonna jump you. So I got up, hit him, you know what I mean. Hit him a couple different times, ‘cause I was, of course, used to fighting now. Then he fell and hit the um, the um, radiator, he hit his head it, so then he started gushing blood. And after he was gushing blood, I also, like in a fit of rage, started to stomp on him. So then they had to like, grab me off of him, and stuff like that, put me downstairs in the principal’s office. Usually, the way the scenario would work out, is he’ll go to the nurse. Be like, damn, shit got crazy, we shouldn’t have gotten into a fight– I would go to the prin– principal’s office, they’ll suspend me, they might suspend him. You know what I mean, and then it’ll just be all done after that. Maybe our parents gotta bring– gotta come in and meet again so we can see what happened, whatever.
But what happened this time was his mom was called, my parents was called, the police was called. I was arrested, I had handcuffs on my little tiny black hands, and then, they fuckin’ um, you know, I mean, pressed charges. And so that was my first charge, aggravated assault, first degree. So they gave me two or three years probation, something like that, hella anger management classes. Um, and I can’t remember what else happened after that. Oh yeah, I got moved out of the class, as opposed to him got moved out of the class, I was moved out, of course. So it was just like, all that happened, so then my mom, my mother was getting worried about like– ‘cause I started having to do better, anyway. But my mother was like, somewhat low key worried about them trying to say that I had special issues. Because all my teachers knew, um, my, like, my academic prowess. But at the same time, my behavior, you behavior, your conduct is so, like, engrossed, you feel what I’m saying, what you know, or what you can do academically, that they don't separate the two. So based on my conduct, they could have put me in Special Ed. Which was a big thing in the nineties, you know what I mean. Taking, um, inner city kids, and then giving them Special Ed, putting them in Special Ed. classes, if they just have behavioral issues. And those behavioral issues, of course, would be linked to their home, domestic violence issues, healthcare issues, you know what I mean, um, issues, drug addictions they have to deal with, whatever else, eating, shit like that.
So, anyway, when I get in school, I basically, I start, my mother was, alright, I’m going to try to get us into the suburbs. So what my mom ended up doing, is getting a boyfriend and then that was, like, my fake step-pops, or whatever the case may be. And we lived with him in the suburbs, right outside of Camden, which is in Pennsauken. By this time, I'm in fifth grade– I’m in fifth grade, you know what I mean, and I've never been in the suburbs longer than, like, a day. Like, you feel what I’m saying, I usually was in the hood. I’ve never really been out of the hood, longer than a couple days. So this was all new to me. Even when I went to other places, I went to the hood. Like I went to Philly, I’d go to Philly, the downtown section, but then I’d go to the hood, like North Philly or something. Anyway, so, um, when I'm out here now, my mother is putting me through this weird training, it's like this type of training I hate, it’s like the suburban kid training that like, which was like the first type of animosity towards my own mother, because I felt crazy. So she was basically worried about like, about eating, like when I was eating, she’d make me eat a certain way, and she would eat the same type of way she told me not to. And then she’d like, get on top of me for that.
What do you mean?
Like, for instance, like, so I love eating with my hands, you know what I mean? So that's just point number one [laughs]. I love eating with my hands, and apparently in the suburbs, that's not cool. So my mom used to like– and my mom’s extremely abusive. Yeah, she was like, oldie abusive. Um, like extension cord, all that, you know what I mean, like bullying, using her strength ‘cause she was always like, twice my size, for awhile. So she could use her physical strength to really rag me, to throw me around. Um, so I– so that was already like, our relationship, and then it just was like, going to this extra level where now, she was also doing things like, um, like snapping on me for something like I might have forgot to do, like later or something, like taking out the trash. ‘Cause we never had to take out the trash, you know what I mean, the way it is in that situation, I didn’t have to wait ‘til Thursday or something, there’d be a dumpster, you feel me? Um, and um, then it just started building from there and then I always had to come, like please her dude, um, her boyfriend. Like, through whatever manipulation she had going on at the time, you feel me, so like– My– I mean, my mother was like, also, always open. She was never dishonest about what she was doing. So it wasn't like she was making me do something, and then just was like, “Yeah, I need you to um, call him Dad or something, today, or some shit like that, so I can get this money.” And then– you feel me? Mom was like, “Yo, look, tonight, you gotta call him Dad or some shit, so we can finesse this money out.” You know what I mean? [Laughs] Like, that’s how my mother was. So me and her was cool in the sense, that way, but at the same time, she was still like, manipulating me too much, and I hated it, because a lot of times, it would be in front of him to make him feel better, so she would like, basically, um, chastise me, you know what I mean, in his presence, type of thing, about something she knew would please him, you know what I mean, like take out the trash or some shit like that, you know what I mean. So anyway, we went to the suburbs. And when I got out of school, now I was like, hyper aware of where I was from. And it was way different, because now, everybody, like if I raised my hand, the teacher would be like, “Oh, it's a new student, oh, introduce yourself.” And I’m like, “Oh, I’m from Camden.” And then there’d be– always be a student would be like, “Oh shit, he from Camden.” [Laughs] That’s the first thing everybody’d say. So I’m like, what the fuck. So I was trying to blend in, so I start, like, listening to different music and all that shit, just to just be like a suburbs kid or whatever, go through like an emo phase and shit, like everybody else 2005, 2004 or whatever [laughs].
So anyway, while I was doing that, I was just completely away from the suburbs. They put me through the standardized test, when they put me through the standardized test, they came back with the results, and they called in the principal. And they called my mom, and they called me to the office. They call me to the office, and I’m like, oh shit. My mom is like, “I don't know what the fuck you did.” The whole time before we got to the office, she was like, “I don’t know what you did, but I promise you, if you embarrass me–” [laughs]. I’m like, yo, I ain’t do nothing, I stay sitting there like, yo I ain’t do nothing. Like I ain’t do nothing. And my moms was just not with none of that shit. “I dont know what you did, but I’m gonna fuck you up after this.” I just was scared as hell. So I go in there, and the vice principal or whatever, he smiled at me, this chubby black guy that's always smiling. He’s like, smiling at me, and I’m like, “Alright bro, what’s up.” And he is like, “Yo, um, Miss– Miss Carol, I want to talk to you about your son.” So she was like, “Alright, what he do.” So she’s looking at me like, I'm ‘bout to smack you look, and listening to him though, like, “Alright, tell me what he did.” And he’s like, “Nah, nah, he not in trouble.” And she was like, “So why am I here?” And she’s like um– he’s like, um, “Nah, we got the test back from the standardized testing that we make them take, or whatever the case may be.” And it was like, “Yo, your son’s score was the top fourteenth for the math scores in the country.” So I was like, “Ohhhhh.” So she was like, “What?” And he was like, “Yeah, actually, like, it’s some, like, schools, like in mathematics, like Olympics, and all those shits, like in China, we would be like, interested to send him to the program and all the stuff like that.” And my mom was like, “Oh alright, word, that’s what’s up.” And all that good stuff. But never followed through with none of that. [Laughs] So that shit just ended up with– meaning nothing, like, they had the smartest math student in the fucking State of New Jersey probably in they school, and I had no encouragement to do anything on top of that, to pursue that, whatsoever, which was dumb. [Laughs] On their part, it shows the state of education. So anyway, that was in my mind though, going through the rest of middle school, so I did that, like kinda easy. So my mother was starting to have issues, because my mother, even though I said she had a boyfriend, my mom was never loyal. So, [laughs] she’s never loyal– and for you to ever think so, [laughs] would be a mistake. She was never loyal. So she would– she had her other boyfriend that I use to chill with on the weekends.
00:20:01
So he was like, super cool though, he was from the hood, he was from New York though. And he was like a five percenter. So he was always like, with me, we was always building, kicking it, talking. And like, you feel me, he um, he was just chill, and he use to make music, that was it. So me and him– he used to take me to the studio, you feel what I’m saying. And he would encourage me, that was the days when I had first like, trying to freestyle, ‘cause that shit was the wave. So that shit, it was just, it was dope, so he had a big impact on my life. So my mom was just like, alright fuck it, we are going to move together, her and with her– her other boyfriend, and then we’ll go to another suburban area, but we’ll just live like, in an apartment, so we moved to Lindenwold.
This was before Lindenwold was like, kind of hoodish, like it is now. But this was Lindenwold was like– it was complete lower middle class suburbs, nobody there had too much money, but it was definitely no crime going on, like, nobody was selling drugs, no streets, none of that. Um, so once we got there and I had to go into another like, school. ‘Cause I kept moving from school. ‘Cause before that– damn, I missed a part, but before that, I went to a super super suburban school– because my mom's boyfriends name was Dandi and his brother was a music producer, and would produce some of Jay Z's videos. So they had this big ass mansion in Sicklerville, and they use to just let us stay there. So I started going to school out there, and everything. And then out there again, that was the first time again, that I was ever challenged. I was dis– you know what I mean, put in dumb classes.
They use to be like, where you from, and I’d be like, I’m from Camden, and they’d be like ugh, but I’d be getting all A's. Anyway, then I had moved to Lindenwold, which was a step down, and then in Lindenwold was when I was going through puberty, so it was like the worst experience. ‘Cause I realized I was going through puberty now, but at the time I did not know what was happening, alls I know was I cared more about the opposite sex, and I also cared about like, fighting more, you know what I mean, I just felt a need to always prove myself. Going through that, my mother and her brother are doing good now, they got jobs, they work at the same place, I think. You know what I mean, like, everything was dope. It’s like a family and everything.
And I went out with– all of my life, I was a fire bug, I used to play with fire all the time. So one day, right, we go over to this park, with like, these Lindenwold kids, my new friend group, and we go over, and um, I just got off probation from the first charge I caught, when I was ten. Now I’m twelve. So they are playing with matches kinda, and I’m like, interested but I’m also like, alright bro, come on, that's corny as hell, it’s the suburbs, what the fuck is y’all doing. Like, you know what I mean. I didn't know what I was doing, but I just wanted to explore. ‘Til I saw someone get messed with or something. But anyway, I just remember that they had left it, and it turned into like, somewhat of a fire, and I’m like, oh, we don't have water bottles, no way to put this out, other option– run. So we ran, right, so then this, like, super big, pink, brolic, white guy grabbed my boy, and my other boy, and I’m like, yo get off my boy. And I felt like, I’m like, I can't leave my boy ‘cause he gripped up just now, but at the same time, I’m like, bro, I don’t want us to get caught up for some shit you just did, some stupid shit. So I’m like fuck it, I’m gonna stay here and rock out with my boy, ‘cause I’m not just gonna let this guy just grip my boy, you know what I mean.
Anyway, them two boys straight up just told the police that it was me, that I did everything, that I set the fire. And that I did all this crazy shit, and I’m from Camden. [Laughs] I don’t know why they had to throw that in there, that I’m from Camden, that means I’m just a deviant. [Laughs] So basically, I was charged with arson. So I was back on probation, and I had to go to fire counseling. I don’t know, they just to make shit up sometimes. Some shit that meant nothing. So from ten to twelve, I’m already right back into NJDOC. Like the NJDOC custody or supervision of some sort, even though there was family court at the time. Anyway, my mother ended up having– so my mother ended up not paying my tickets, because she couldn’t afford to take care of me, hold down the bills, et cetera, et cetera, and do her traffic tickets, and stop driving. So eventually the traffic tickets caught up to her, and because these little traffic tickets will build up, then they’ll put out a warrant for your arrest. So they put out a warrant for my mothers arrest. And then they arrested my mother. So she had to stay in jail, in county jail, for thirty days– I mean, thirty days, you know what I mean, not going to work, no income coming in, she just gotta be thirty days away, and then everything was put my– on her boyfriend at the time. So my mom’s like, “You know what, you don't need to take care of my son. He can just stay with his godmother.”
The funny thing about this is, is my godmother, right, is my ex-girlfriend’s mom. [Laughs] So like, this is after me and my girlfriend broke up– this was my first girlfriend too, in Lindenwold. So, me and my girlfriend ended up breaking up, but then I ended up going and living with her. [Laughs] It was crazy. I wasn't having sex at those times, though. It’s crazy– right after I broke up with her, I feel like that's when I started having those type of experiences, but before that, I wasn't doing nothing. I was trying to kiss and, like, hug, or something, and, like, talk to somebody all night. So anyway. I started living with her, and that’s when I was just– I had been in the house with women before, but now it’s like, they are not even my family, so I had to constantly be, kind of like, on edge, walk on eggshells. ‘Cause I never wanted to feel like I was imposing, ‘cause I knew I was, I knew I was there for thirty days. I knew Miss Chantelle– I knew my godmother was already taking care of her two daughters, and all the other shit she got going on in her life, so I'm an added benefit. So when I was there, it was the first time where I just learned to be, like, as quiet as possible and clean up. That’s all I pretty much did.
My mom use to make me clean up the house anyway. ‘Cause she was not only the breadwinner, but the street runner. But I had to clean up the house anyway, all the time, and cook, so here I did the same thing during that time. My mom finally came home– During that time, before my mom came home, I had went to my house, the apartment, so it was a two minute walk to my place. So I would go in there, and one time I saw my mom's boyfriend in there, and then I saw a random white guy in there, and the lampshades was not on the lamp. Whenever the lampshades are not on the lamps, in the hood, means that there is drugs being did. I have no idea why that’s the case, but I was like, there just wasn’t a lampshade, like what the fuck is happening, they turned my house into a trap house.
So anyway, I go in there real quick to grab something, like, where is my game cube, or something? Then I head back. Anyway, when my mom finally came home, she was like, we was like, yo, me and Dandi, we’re not fucking with that no more. And I was like, why? And she was like, we gotta move out, we gotta go back to Pennsauken and live with Pork, which is the dude in the suburbs that I had to stay with originally. So I’m like, why? Because Dandi had a serious heroin addiction that he was hiding, and my mom didn't find out until– I guess he must have told her, yeah, he told her, like right before she came home, so he lost the money for the apartment. Because of course, he had only that now to lean on, because she was gone, he only had that for thirty days. And he wasn't one of those guys that hit her or cheat on her, he just had a serious heroin condition. And that just took him completely out of our lives. ‘Cause my mom was not in that shit at all, she already had to deal with her smoking crack and weed all the time. And she was like, you know what, that's another addiction that didn't need to be in my family.
So we went back to live with Pork. And Pork also had a state job, so he always had bread coming in. He always making two, three thousand dollars a month, or uh, four or five thousand dollars a month, you know what I mean. So he was always making some good money. Anyway, so we had to live with him, and now we lived with him, and it was a whole year went by that I wasn't around him. And I had grew, like, outside thinking that that world was the only world that existed, but I knew he was the provider, and now that made it, like a different type of situation. So now it’s like, I’m gonna be quiet, and I gotta do what I gotta do, but I’m doing it so I can eat, ‘cause I know my mother is gonna be struggling. Um, after being incarcerated, she lost her job, you feel what I’m saying, because obviously she wasn’t at work for thirty days. So anyway, now that he was the provider, and we were just there, that became like, the nexus of that relationship. So now like, we all knew what we was doing there for. Him and my mom got high together and occasionally had sex. And you feel what I’m saying, he could be like, he could act like he had a family and shit. [Laughs] He was a lonely piece of shit. He was literally, like a lonely old bastard. He just like, he got a lot of power and fulfillment, of being able to dominate someone else’s life. And it became more and more oppressive. In the past, they had had quick little arguments, but now they are having scuffles like, often. So now when they have a scuffle– again, this is during the years I’m hitting out of puberty, and now I’m involved, so now I'm fighting them. So now, a couple times in the middle of the night, they got into it. He likes to sleep with his gun under his pillow, you feel what I'm saying. Little threatening shit like that. And um, I fucking smacked him with a bat. Some shit like that. [Laughs]
Anyway, it was getting rough every night. To the point where, he finally put us out in the middle of the night and we went to a domestic violence home shelter. Now me and my mom was in a shelter together before, like back in the day, but this time, we really had to go to the shelters for real, for real. We went to the domestic violence shelters– it’s all women, in terms of like, the people that are there, and of course their kids. And this is like, when I was like, completely far away, snatched out of reality. Domestic violence shelter is– rightfully, is like, usually in a spot where you can’t get to, and a lot of wood areas, so you had to take a long drive just to where you need to go. So I started going to school on a different bus, it was a bus that would come and get me all the way from there, and take me to school, so it was at least a thirty minute drive. So now every morning, I’m getting off the little yellow bus. It was already a short bus– I was getting off the short bus, so kids had jokes about that and now, they trying to figure out what was going on, like yo, what the fuck, why you wasn’t at the bus stop this morning? So now, at school, I’m trying to hide that, because that shit is way too crazy. So I'm hiding that, but I’m also dealing with what I'm going through in school. So now, school, um, my behavior is starting to get different, you know what I mean, because the impact now, that my domestic issues are now having on me now, is that in school, I'm like, much more angry. Like now, I’m angry all the time. I didn't mention this– but, when I was seven, I had a brother, older brother, he had spina bifida. So my mother was taking care of both of us during those years. After she took me back, my brother was taken away from her by DYFS, because of her drug use, she had failed a urine test one time. And they were saying that um, she was not fit to parent him, because he had spina bifida, he needed a specific diet, and he had to work out a lot, if he wanted to have um, a healthy weight, ‘cause he was getting overweight. Anyway, my mom finally got him back, he had to go to a program, all the way in North North Jersey, all the way in High Point State or something, um. They took him away for like a year and a half, he finally came back with us. When he came back with us, he was only with us for about two months. And then he passed away. He had a heart attack, and he died in my arms. He passed away that night, and then in then in the morning time when I woke up–
Elevator sounds. Woman’s voice, “Hi. Are you doing something? Sorry. We have the room reserved–”.
Hello hello? Hello hello, testing. What’s up, Mark?
What’s up?
Alright. Where were we? Hold on. Alright, so. Backtracking a little bit here, when you moved and lived with your grandmother, this was back in third grade, I think, was she also in Camden?
Yeah.
Oh, that was kindergarten, I think.
Yeah. All my family was um, living in Camden, at least my immediate family. I did however, there was a time when I used to go away to the suburbs– I forgot all about this. So, in the summertime, once I turned a certain age, after my brother had died, I used to visit my grandparents. And my grandparents– This is my mother’s side, this is my mother's father and her stepmother. She– They, uh– He is the family– He came with his parents to Hackensack, from the reservation from North Carolina so they are like, a hundred percent Cherokee, Native American. And they specifically, their people and actually gone, they go so far back, they are part of the coalition for the Native American families that were taking in runaway slaves. So they have like, dark, dark complexions, and these broad cheekbones, and eyes, and everything else. And like, the straighter hair and everything is kinda funny, but anyway it was like, twelve of them that came up there. So they all ended up doing very well for themselves, so that side of my family is higher middle class. Like, everyone owns their own homes, have jobs that pay well, they don't worry about any poverty at all. So my mother would send me up there with him, for the summer, for a month or two. But up there, I could only stay in the house, meet the other, like, thousand of cousins that I had, go to the like, the occasional cookout, and then practice football.
I played football all my life, for some reason, I just never got a break. So my grandfather would make me train with the high school team, and practice football with them. So. So, basically, that was our relationship– was like, sports, structure, meeting family, staying in the house. So I didn't do anything up there, I’d go up there, meet my cousins, we all would be good, I'll have a great time, and then I’d have to come back here, and they would send me away with all my school clothes, in the fall. So they would buy that in advance, and they would send me back with a lot of different food. They had gone shopping with all their different coupons. My grandmother, my grandfather's wife, she is a beast when it comes to the coupon thing. Like, she was already on top of getting coupons by the books, and going in, and buying in bulk, whatever. She would send me back with two months of canned food, and anything else. That trip was always really impactful and wonderful, but I never experienced suburban lifestyle in the sense that, like, I never was like, freely to walk around. Because as a part of suburban lifestyle, you don’t do that. Like, you just go to your different families house, you stay in the house for the most part, you know what I mean, and you enjoy not having to suffer through poverty.
It’s summer vacation.
Exactly. It was a great vacation, so I go back to my house, and it’d just be like, ughh. So that all basically was constantly in the back of my mind, but I stopped going up there, and started staying like, in my area for the summer. So now, while I'm getting older, I have more freedom to go anywhere I want. Eventually, I got a job. So I got a job working with my cousin, as the third – the graveyard shift, where we come in, and do the restaurants or whatever. And I got that job because my mother and my step-father. After he put us out, put us in domestic violence shelter, my mom– when she got out, she got an apartment, in Pennsauken though. So just across the main avenues, we probably were like two thousand feet away– it wasn't that crazy of a distance. We lived just across the main avenue, or whatever the case may be, and um, from my stepfather, so she’d still go over there and maintain her relationship with him to manipulate him, but now she has her own spot, which was just me and her in the apartment, which was her getaway. However, now she got that, she got a job again, I was still on probation and I had gotten in trouble again, because now I'm starting to get more in the streets. So once I got my job, I had money to travel, money to get on the bus, go over there, you know what I mean, or I’ll just will ride my bike how far, take the bus, whatever. So now, I'm in and out of Camden. Pennsauken and Camden literally across the street from each other. So now I'm back and forth in the hood.
What was your job?
Oh so my job– I had a janitor job. I go in, sweep, mop the floors, buff the floors, clean the tables, the counters, and stuff like that. Go in the freezer, steal all the candy. [Laughs] When you go to, like, a Cold Stone– I was going to some mini-mall, and this is when Cold Stone first came out, it was new, it was only in the suburbs, the deep suburbs. You be like, at a little strip mall– and then you be like, what the hell, Cold Stone? You go in and see the broken up Snickers–
It was indulgent.
Exactly, so that being said, we use to do all those festivities. Friendlies, we cleaned at a Friendlies or Fridays, or something like that, I don’t know, alls I remember is using their grill. It was the best job ever. I had a reasonable amount of money, like it was enough where I was like, you know what, for three hours, it was worth it. I had made a decent amount of money. So anyway, I started getting the job because my mom, even though she was working and getting money from my step-pops whatever, you know what I mean, every now and then, so they can get high or whatever. I was still, like, suffering, so, like, I wasn't– I still was hungry all the time. There wasn't that much food around, and then me and my mother, of course there were food stamps coming in, we would OD at the beginning, but like, once that goes through, the food supply was pretty much finished, we were pretty much done for. And sometimes, my mother would use the food stamps to get high with. So now it would limit the amount of money for food stamps, and when my mom found out I had a job, she just was like, alright. But that job eventually got to an end, because it was one– super under the table, and two– it wasn't convenient anymore because the job locations was a little too far. So I started hustling, ‘cause I had already started smoking weed.
I had been introduced to weed since like, of course my mom, ‘cause I used would champ her Milds, and roll my cousins blunts too. Eventually, I started smoking weed while I was going to school, while I was playing football, and I hadn't start boxing yet. But I was still needing money to do everything. I had money to pay for stuff I might need, for cleats or something, for gloves, or tape, or special pads, whatever the case may be. I had to get for any type of trip I wanted to go on, or any of that good stuff, so I had no money for that ever. So after that first year, I was back in the suburban schools, like I had I realized that, oh shit, it’s weird to not have money for certain things, like a trip, or a class trip. If you missed a trip, people gonna be like, “Why didn't you come to the trip?” It was fifty dollars, like, that was not something I didn’t want to experience again. So now I’m like, alright, I have money for my clothes, ‘cause my clothes started to get tight, and it was something relevant again like, yo, what are you wearing? [Laughs] That was a thing again, ‘cause in Camden schools, everyone wore a uniform. Which was somewhat of a step up, you know what I mean, when it comes to that kind of thing.
So anyway, I'm like, everybody is, like, thinking about what you’re wearing, and everybody got these new relationships, ‘cause we already like, now in and out of puberty at this point. When I was like thirteen– well I was like, twelve at this point, but by thirteen, I would say, when I was like full-blown, I was smoking weed, and then I was smoking too much, I was like, this is too much of an expense, so I started selling weed, at school. And I’m doing uh, boosting. I would go to the mall and steal clothes, and jewelry, whatever sort, stuff like that. Um, what else was I stealing? I was stealing everything, men clothes, women’s clothes, know what I mean, then I'd go to Walgreens, whatever the case may be, and I would steal all their gum and candy and stuff, so when I would sell weed, we had gum and candy to cover, and to help people out with their munchies. So I had a snack business, a weed business, on top of my boosting business, so I was doing all those things simultaneously, while still, you know what I mean, playing football and going to school. My grades in school were pretty good. So. Then I don't know what happened, I started hanging out with the outcasts, because they were the people– one, who were not afraid to smoke weed on a daily basis and [laughs] two– they started to get I guess, bullied. Like, in the suburbs, it was a weird transition to whom was cool and who wasn't. As long as you like, had money and was an athlete, and generally was in a crowd with all the cool kids, you was good, and if you was anything outside of that, they were gonna bully you, or pick on you, or tease you, or find a way to beat you up, or something like that. One of these cornballs could have some kind of clout. So a lot of those outcast were my friends.
So, um, I was always some sort of I guess, a cool kid, but I wasn't a cool kid in a sense, where it was because I was an athlete or had money or none of that shit. It was basically ‘cause I was cool with everybody. I was just decent– I just was cool with everybody. And I already fought all my life, and most of my time there. Like, even in the suburbs, I didn't say this, but I was fighting all the time, I was beating them up all the time, because they really bully people, and they thought it would be okay, like be like, “Oh such-and-such, ha ha ha, something like that. Oh, you’re dumb, you’re stupid, when someone says the wrong answer.” So I beat up a lot of them. So once you do all that, they respect you for real, for real, and now you know how to fight, and he is cool, and as long as they don’t push you, they won't beat you up, so let’s be cool with this guy. So anyway, a lot of my friends in high school started getting teased and bullied in class and then I’d notice it, and say something. It might, like, change them, and as far as the men– the men would try to take it to the next step and since we’re not– they wanna pick a fight. They were doing this to guys who were not fighting. They weren’t into that, and they just wanted to fucking listen to fucking, uh, Green Day and be about their business, so that started happening. So I started fighting them, to protect them. So that just started me with a like, a couple of my cousins, and shit like that, we’d just chill.
My little small group was like a team, not a gang, but similar to one, ‘cause we constantly was fighting, like, other different people. So once I was hustling, I started beefing with, um, I started getting into gang culture more. People that were coming home from prison, like my older brother– he had came home, and he had a juvenile life bid for killing one of his mom's boyfriends, and he had just like, came home from another five-year bid for assaulting a police officer. So he introduced– he was a Blood, so I was like, say no more, and he brought me into that, or whatever the case may be, so that escalated where I was, and what I was doing. So then, after that I stopped boxing, ‘cause I lost a fight um, and I was, like, upset about my own footwork. I was disappointed in myself about the fight, and quit boxing. I stopped playing football ‘cause it was too hard to like, play, go to practice, lift weights, and like, I wasn’t having no outside support. The whole purpose I started before, was like, you know how your family kinda fakes support, you know. Some family are more supportive than others– mine’s was not even gonna show up at every game. My people would come out once in a blue, and my mom was high when she was there. So it was like– that shit was like, I had no reason or motivation to do it anymore. Then I was completely in the streets [laughs] and it was over after that. So I started selling coke after that. Then after that, I’m selling dope. I was selling everything, all the drugs [laughs], you know what I mean, and now I’m gang banging.
So in Camden, how it works, we have a very like, structured system when it comes to selling drugs there. It's not like other places, where you get to a certain point, and then you talk to your mans and you get what you can and hustle where you can. Ours is like, there’s a– a certain persons block. You have to get weight from that person only, and then that person approves you, whoever runs that block. Then you can go on that block, then everyone on that block got a different job, so everybody not– there are tiers to it. So the first job, is the lookout. Now the look out, is what everyone from Camden do when you’re a little kid, ‘cause you stand on the corner for like an hour or so, look out for the neighborhood drug dealer, and if the cops come, or they don't, and if they do, they do, but you let them know, you use whatever signal, whatever call. And then he gave you two dollars, which went far as hell back then. [Laughs] Two dollars– ‘cause you figure back then you get a dollar back then, was a quarter juice, a bag of chips, a quarters worth of candy, and a quarters worth of Snickers, you feel me, or an ICEE or something, that shit went far. So back then, you feel me, imagine having that. Anyway so I already was doing that type of thing, and when I started selling weed, I was selling my own weed, and when I started selling crack, I was a pack ward. Which is like– basically like any other capitalist structure. I go that person that's copping it wholesale, they give it to me at a certain price, I sell as much as I can, and I keep a certain percentage of it. So that– when I say a certain percent, I mean, for every pack, it was a hundred twenty worth of drugs, and you keep twenty dollars. You just bring back the hundred, it was simple as that.
Once I started doing that, my mom’s addiction started getting worse. She quit her job. I had went in and out of the youth center twice, um, for robbery. Yeah, twice for robbery. One was a simple assault, another time was robbery. But after I come out that last time, now I was like su– now I was Blood– I was a full blown gang banging, [laughs] and so I was doing all that shit all the time. I had my own little homies, whatever the case may be. Um, I had um– my older brother was my big homie, but the set we had was a few of us, and he had so much clout to who he was, and it kinda transferred over into me, but then that motivated me to constantly live up to this crazy image. So I say that I'm an adventurous person, which can be obviously a curse or blessing. When it’s a curse, like getting things done, and like, going the hardest to get to a certain end. I’m not the type of person to create barriers to get to that end, because I’m nervous, or something like that. So for most people, like, um, when they have an altercation in the hood, they first have the exchange of body language and eye contact, and it will escalate in their conversation they had, then they would go into like, actual physical contact, like a push, or proximity, or until they shred one another. So my whole philosophy is, why the fuck would I ever get through all that shit if I know I just want to strike you anyway. So that just made me like, extremely explosive to violence, so that was just very valuable commodity for someone to be like that in the hood. That’s like, something you always want. And anybody that can do that and deal with the consequences, to always follow through, they just gonna be someone everyone knows and that everybody wanna respect, so that’s what I shot for.
Um, that basically translated to, of course I started having to carry a gun now. ‘Cause um, in Camden, the way we do it is– if this block is getting money, so they got better coke out, so they shit fire, they got that fire, and on our side, our shit is alright, it’s it’s been consistent, but it's not what they have, but it’s not what they’ve got this week– whoever chief they chose was doing their thing, and we want to go for it, and make this block hot. So once we catch their flow, their customers was coming around to deal with us now, in the future. ‘Cause we have consistent good shit that they can go to, and they have a reputation for being hot. So you go to the block, and shoot it up real quick, [makes gun sounds] and once you shoot they block up, the cops are coming by, and shit gonna be hot, and shit will be shut down. Then you’re gonna let the shit cool off. Then you come again, and shoot up again [makes gun sounds], now this time the cops will put squad cars nearby in the area, ‘cause now they think it's actual gang shit going on, but it’s really just the competition trying to draw attention away. Mind you, this intention, this block and competition that I'm talking about is not across town, this shit is literally next block over, like literally the next block over. Like, I'm not exaggerating at all, and anybody from Camden can tell you that. The block, say like– like Somerset and Easton type of thing. Just like that.
Anyway, um, so I was the dude that started doing the shooting like that, so I go around, shoot the block up [makes gun sounds], ‘cause I was so fast. I'd shoot and then I'm out, I’d get low, and that just translates to war time. I was just on the front lines, you know what I mean? Besides what I was doing with the gang shit, it was also in Camden– your block is your family, ‘cause you all are making money. Y’all see each other all day, that's your shift. We got actual shifts, you know what I mean. They are the people who will show you, if you get a good batch or something, how to break it down, bag it up again, and double your money, feel what I’m saying, and share it with everybody, and make sure everybody is good, and pay whoever rent, that you got a trap out of. You also gotta go for them, so because I was in so much, I was the go person, I had my hands in everything. Anyway, eventually, um, my god-brother, and my um– my god-brother, my cousin, and a friend of mine, my fri– one of my– two of my cousins, we went to a party one night– well this is what I did. I was in the hood all day, everyday, so now like everyday I was paranoid, I'm always strapped. It just was too stressful at this time, me and my mom was beefing now, because I had basically left out the house. I was paying to stay at my cousin’s house, well she didn’t make me pay, but I was basically paying to spark her up, buy the food, and stuff like that.
I was working on getting my own apartment, and I was fifteen at the time. So when this was all happening, um– I was getting too stressed out being in the hood everyday, and it was just too much and I’m somebody that’s a workaholic. So not only am I'm going to school, but I’m waking up six, six-thirty in the morning, trapping ‘cause I’m making dope block– I’m making dope block sales, shooting out to school, in school and shit, I may stay ‘til lunch. And first period lunch, though. [Laughs] As soon as– it’s not even my lunch, as soon as first period was done, I was like that’s enough. I might come back, but most of the time I'm not. I’m smoking weed in the school, in the locker room, like I’m acting crazy. Then I shoot out of there, and I go straight back to the hood, continue trapping, and then I usually wouldn't keep a late night shift, ‘cause the stick up kids used to be out heavy. So the late night shift was done up, or you’re gonna get caught lacking for real. So I stay out ‘til eleven thirty, then I shoot somewhere in the hide away, know what I mean, to chill. So I start also, like, paying food for my house, putting groceries in my house, and whatever, then I had clothes and shit. Anyway I wanted to break from it, so I tried figuring out new ways to get out of the hood, and still be like, relevant, or whatever that meant at the time.
So I signed up for ROTC, and I started researching like different things I can do to get into the Navy, and making a path I want to go down, in terms of, like, a career in military. I was like, I still get to play, and have access to guns, and also I just needed to get classic grade A training on whatever I need training on, and always have a job. I can be legit so then my homies don't have to risk it, getting guns from fuck niggas, and getting robbed, so I’d beat him wit that, and I’ll make my money doing that. So that’s my mindset. [Laughs] That's what I'm gonna do, that's how I'm gonna get this shit done. So my brother got locked up, my older brother for violating parole, so that just left me on the streets, in terms of the homies. It wasn't that many of us, but it was still some organizing that had to be done among them, making sure niggas are still in touch with each other, and all these little things we do to make it seem like we give a fuck, when we don’t. Anyway, I wanted a break from that shit, so I started to figure out, planning different nights to go to parties, because I was hustling, and I always would like, I’d go to parties, and they wanted to blast me, I’m not going to that shit. So I’m like, let me enjoy my life as a teenager, and go to a suburbs and go to a party. Went to the suburbs, went to the party, the party was lit, I hope it was lit. I don't remember, but it probably was lit, it probably was lit though. And when we was coming back, I didn't have no gun on me, or nothing. It was a good night, I knew I was safe, know where I was gonna sleep, and where I was headed. We go to a park to have seat, and my god-sister– it was like five or six of us, it’s a lot of us– not that many, but it’s a lot. Anyway, I had my god-sister with me, her name Nair, I was taking care of Nair, in terms of, like, she was hungry, ain’t have no place to stay. And she was my cousin’s girlfriend though, but he was on the run. And he was only– he was like, eighteen, nineteen, she was like fourteen, but they were the couple everybody knew, ‘cause they were always couch hopping, shit like that, you know what I mean.
So anyway, she sit down next to some guy that was sitting down like this, but drunk, so she jumped up, and walked over to me, and she’s like, he touched me, he grabbed my ass. So I’m like, okay, say no more. So I was also with my right hand man, my best friend, I did everything with him, hustled with him, deal whatever, you feel what I’m saying, everything was with him, slept in the same carpets, and if you saw me, you saw him, and if you saw him, you saw me, and if you didn't see us together, it was like yo, what's going on? Anyway, him, one of my– two of my little homies, and some other random guy, they wanted to be affiliated with Blood, but they wasn’t actual gang members yet, trying to get in the wave, but they still did everything I said. So I said, yo, we gotta jump on his ass, we just gonna rough him up a bit, because like, you feel what I’m saying, I’m not even beat, bro. I wasn't drunk but I know I was high. I don't know how high, and I felt like I was, like, coming down to soberness, so I was tired, like I wasn’t beat for nothing. So they jumped him, beat him up, but they started OD’ing with it, they was doing too much, and I don’t know– I still to this day don't know what the hell in my mind, like, let me end it, ‘cause they don't understand what it means to end it. So I went to grab a pipe or something like that, and then I, like, broke– broke– broke his head. You know what I mean. His ear got cut off, and the whole nine. So I was like, oh shit, damn bro, I didn't mean to do that, so then I threw the weapon and we kept pushing.
Was that the dude that was passed out?
Yeah, well he wasn't passed out. He was fighting, he got up and was fighting. They had a full blown fight going on, but they had obviously gotten the better of him. But towards the end, I don't remember what was happening, and moving him out the way, but hitting him though anyway, so then he was sitting there, dying. I knew he was gonna die, ‘cause I seen him, and was like, oh, he’s not gonna make that. So I was like, come on, we gotta get up out of here, and changed clothes and shit like that. That was the first time they had did something like, super violent, that I was involved in, or whatever. And I was like, you niggas already know, you wasn't here, you didn't do nothing, so I don't think he is gonna make it. And if he don’t, you know what I’m saying, that’s a body, and you can’t be too careful. However, it was playing with their consciousness, because like, everybody was dealing with weird and paranoid ways. And then, like, once it came out in the paper, like Such-and-such found beaten to death, duh-duh-duh-duh, or some shit like that. Well no– he didn't die on the spot, he lived for another two weeks. He was taken to the hospital, like “Man beaten and attacked,” or whatever. But then two weeks later, it came out in the paper that he had passed away due to his injuries, but it was the exact cut off day where the hospital was responsible for that, or whoever attacked him was responsible. So we will never know the results, obviously it was due to the injuries, but we’ll also never know if it was the lack of good healthcare in the system. To my knowledge, even though like his ear had got cut off and everything he actually had the worst injuries in his ribs, the breathing, and that was the point, I was trying to stop them. ‘Cause I felt like they were kicking him, or something, too. It was a whole thing. But anyway.
I will never understand that, I really won’t, and I never really tried. At the end of the day, I know if I was in that situation again, and the same exact things occurred, I would respond probably the same way. Just off the simple fact that I knew who I was then, and I was extremely protective, and everything I always did in my life, it was always because I felt like I had to do this live, to survive, or help somebody else. I was never the type of person who indulged in violence just to indulge in violence, but when I did, it was extreme, ‘cause I’m an extremist, that's just an aspect of my personality. It wasn’t ever like– I was never the sick, sadistic type of person, I actually hated fighting, all the time, I did. ‘Cause I was fighting so much. So anyway, everyone around my circle started acting weird, and somehow a detective threw a stone in the dark, and it landed on my right hand man, and he was like– I guess just asked him some questions, and it was like the dumbest questions ever, like I shit you not. The exact questions were like, so were you in the park anytime, such and such? And he was like, uh, yeah. [Laughs] If he said no, my life would be completely different.
I mean, it is what it is, but still, I always think about that shit, what if he had just been like, “No.” And they would have said was, “Anyone you know?” And he would have said, “No, everyone I fuck with don’t be on this side of Camden,” like, he could have said something like that. And they would have, like, “Alright, it was nice to talk to you, we’re just trying to find out some information out,” you feel me? He would have went home, and never have to go through what he went through, in that sense, and I’d never had to go through what I went through, in that sense. But it was what it was.
01:07:38
Maybe they knew something.
Nah, ‘cause– I read the investigations, and what happened was, they were asking neighbors about anything, and the neighbors was like, this one kid, he’s always like into like, dumb shit, basically. Because he had a bad reputation, ‘cause he always gets in fights, and shit, but I never really had that reputation amongst adults. Adults thought I was terrible when I was younger, but as I got older, I found a way to be more slick. So adults thoughts I just went to school and was chilling, feel what I’m saying, for the most part. But I was a trap star. Anyway, they asked around like, you know any guys that would know about this? They was, like, why don't you ask the child such-and-such, whatever the case may be. So they went, and asked that child such-and-such, and bam. They hit the jackpot. Anyway, didn't take long for them to put a wire on him, had him call my phone, tap his phone, call everybody else, and then they started putting like, a conspiracy against me. And I didn’t know this, they all was starting to build statements and everything was me, and they didn’t do anything, except for me and three– my right hand man, who had already said he did it. Me, and one of my– two of my bros, basically, two of my other best friends, I use to be with all the time, from the suburbs. So they cut everyone from the picture, and a couple of other people, but they got statements from this one dude, that was one of the main ones. Her, my god sister, my right hand man, and then once them three just got together, and built their statements against us, so it was like, pretty much over. So then, the four of us– me, my right hand, and the two bro's, we all got arrested. My god sister and the other dude that told her boyfriend that I mentioned once, they let them, they didn't ask or nothing. Then of course they put me through the lie detector test, beat the lie detector test. Ask me some crazy stuff, I beat all the little trick questions they made. I didn't do anything, I heard about it in the paper, and I have nothing more to say to you. You feel what I’m saying. My mom was there and they were like, alright.
Well, anyway, basically once they got whatever statement they needed, they came and got me. They came and got me though, they came and got me with like, guns blazing. They came and got me with guns, and SWAT team outside. They surrounded my little apartment, and windows I could jump out of, knocking on doors, you feel what I’m saying. That morning was one of the only days that I stayed with her, in her house. It was one of those nights when we got cool, and I’m gonna chill here and shit. And I was drunk. I had a little girl at the time, not a little girl, she was my shorty, but at the time she was a little girl, because I was a little boy, but anyway, you feel me. And it was my peoples that I was getting real close with, so me and her was drinking the night, and she spent off and I walked her all the way home, which was a long ass walk. That all I remember and I came back to my house, and we hadn’t slept in the apartment, but we sat up all night, talking, shit like that. I got up in the morning, I hear this loud ass knock. I look out my window and see the cops, and I look out the other window, and I see hella cops. And I hear it knock again, so my mom is like, “Who the fuck is that?” And I’m like, “Mom, stay in the fucking room.” So I go in there, and I’m so happy I didn't keep a gun in the house, ‘cause shit would have gotten real [laughs] and that would have been on the news– another young black man murdered. I opened the door, and the cop says, step out. He grabs me, my mom’s like, “What are you doing with my son?”
They immediately do everything, zip ties, put the cuffs on, with the gun like this, and my mom’s like, “What are you all doing to my son?” And they are saying, “Your son is being arrested for first degree murder.” Like, god damn. So my mom is breaking down, she doesn't know how to react now. How do you react to someone saying your son is being arrested for first degree murder? I’m fifteen years old. So, they take me to county, all that, and that next thing you know, I’m indicted on another murder, but it was a murder that they had hearsay on, so they didn't have enough evidence that I was there, [laughs] so I successfully avoided that. However, the other one stuck. So that one was basically, I went to the youth center, I was already in the youth center before, and now I’m like the dudes I remember that were there before I was there, that had to do like, long-ass extended periods, and I was like, they going to go to adult prison, and I'm like, that can’t be me. Now here I am in that position. So anyway, I go to court, right? I don’t even see the judge for the first three weeks, something like that. So they locked up all four of us, there’s all four of us locked up. So first go see the judge, and the first numbers the prosecutors talking about was, um, sixty. And I was like, oh, sixty years, ohhh. They was, like, our first offer is sixty years. So I went to my room later that night, and cried for a long time, and it was like, oh man, it’s over. [Laughs] That’s I kept thinking about, and I kept saying it to myself, like, oh man. Anyway, so I fucking made it through that night without trying to commit suicide and um, just kinda thugged it out the next couple weeks, until we saw court again. So now we are in court, I have my head on straight, and I’m like fuck that, I’m not letting these white people give me all this time, that shit is not about to happen to me. So only thing I’m telling my lawyer is trial. And my lawyer’s like, um, he’s telling me that the other guys, if they start to cop out, if they offer them plea deals or plea bargains, you know, they will be used against you on the trial, and it will be a lot harder in trial. I’m like, listen sir, they are lacking evidence and a lot of these statements are stories that don't corresponding with each other. There is no way in hell that they would be able to give me all this time, we need to go to trial, and even if we do go to trial, and even if I lose trial, I should be able to come back, right? My uncle said that, and he was right, but I didn't know exactly the laws what to cite and all that.
Was he a public defender?
Who? Oh yeah. I actually had got a pool attorney, because it was so many of us. It was four of us, who was all co-defendants, so I ended up getting a pool attorney, which was better. But, um, so he was like alright, so he went with me, and bluffed trial, until they kept coming back with numbers, and he was like alright, I’m gonna tell them we’re going to trial, and see if they come back with a better bargain, but I’m not gonna lie to you, kid, if they come with something good, I think you should probably take it. You probably should take it. I’m like, oh man, he gave up on me. He gave up on me, fuckin’ bitch ass, yo, he gave up on me. That was the only thing I kept thinking about. It’s like that Dave Chappelle episode, where the white dude got to see what it’s like going to court from the black person’s perspective. And it’s the lawyer, so the black– so Dave Chappelle’s supposed to represent like the white corporate American, he’s sitting at a table, his lawyer’s there, they schedule a meeting, he comes to the meeting late as hell, they’re all sitting there with cigars and laughing, and he was like, “Man listen, off the record, we just want you to know that you’re a great guy, you do so much for the community, we don’t want anything to smudge your reputation, so let’s see if we can do something for you, how about a couple years of probation.” [Laughs] And you know what I mean, anyway. When the white guy sees it from our perspective, the public defender’s like, dropping files, [laughs] he’s like, “I got a dozen guys that I had to see today,” [Laughs] And that’s like who we had. And basically, they give your case a little bit of interest in the beginning, and actually, it may be something they may want to fight for, but I think that’s how they pull you in, and once you get pulled in to it, you just have to listen, and they’re like, if there’s a plea deal, I think you have to take it. Anyway.
Do you think you would have had a better chance if it went to trial?
Hell yes. Um, that’s only because, like I said, the statements were not corresponding. All the people who got plea deals only did so under intense amount of duress, as well as they had no physical evidence, whatsoever. You don't learn a lot until you’re in prison and studying a lot of time in the law books, going over cases, that murder charges are the easiest charges to defend against, because you either need some solid evidence, or solid key witnesses. And the jury would have to believe them over you, and over the evidence that is presented. Anyway, they kept coming down and they were like, alright, we not gonna give you sixty– thirty. And I was like, oh man, that’s funny as hell. They just were like, thirty. Then a year went by. And now, they are like, look, we can wait for you to turn sixteen, and then force you to get waived up to adult court, or you can waive your own rights as a juvenile, and get waived yourself to adult court, and then we’ll give you a better deal, and we’ll be willing to work with you. So basically like, become a number in the system, you know what I mean, make this an adult win case for us, and we will gladly send you to the judge that you had your whole juvenile life. All my juvenile life, I had one judge– Judge Hornstine. Then, because he didn’t retire, he moved up to adult court, that couple times I was bluffing trial was with one of the few black judges in court, he was Judge Dortch. He was pretty reasonable with how judges go, but whatever. When I moved to adult court, they gave me Hornstine again. Hornstine knew me since I was ten. That was the first judge, that was like, “I’m giving you probation and anger management, because you have issues, you little deviant.”
So I had to deal with Hornstine, who was infamously known for giving out the harshest sentences. Anyway, so I start going to court, whatever, and the prosecutor is like, twenty. And he’s like, that’s the lowest I’m going. And my lawyer is like, “No, we aren't taking twenty years for this.” Um, so then, the first person– my co-defendant, my right-hand man, because he gave up, he gave up all the information possible, they gave him the sweetest deal they could have gave him. Which is, they kept his case in family court, juvenile, and then only gave him juvenile life. And juvenile life goes as follows, as long as you have good behavior for three or four years, they will let you do the remainder of the time on juvenile parole, and then doing the program, or whatever the case may be. So basically, he only had to do four years. Um, so they gave him that. That was already the statement, somebody that they had as a key witness to testify against me and my other two co-defendants– so my lawyer is like, that's already one guy with you, and they can subpoena other people, who said they would write a statement against you. So then he went and got– so then, one of my bros, my first bro copped out first. He copped out to ten, and that was the lowest they gave, I mean for an adult. So he got ten. So once he got ten, I’m like shit bro, what the fuck. My lawyer was like, um, listen, he’s not– he didn't add anything to the statement, but since he copped out, part of his plea bargain is that if you testify– if you go to trial, he is obligated to testify against you, basically, um, and then corroborate the stories put forth, and say that you're guilty. So it's just me and my other bro left, and I’m like, yo, I’m not copping out, bro, we gotta take it to trial. So now a new plot twist comes into play. The first number they go with me is seventeen, and the lowest for my god-brother, that’s like, still going back and forth to court, is seventeen. However, they are only offering seventeen, because they wanna offer him twelve for the murder, and five years for sexual assault.
Now this is like a crazy plot twist, that is somewhat off topic. However, the girl I was messing with ended up being a girl he was messing with like a month or two before, so she was, like, pregnant during– at the time, and was only twelve. So yeah, yeah. She used to lie about her age, so you couldn't tell– especially, I was a fifteen-year-old, I wouldn't have known the difference between a twelve-year-old, that was doing fourteen-year-old things. So anyway. But I hadn't messed with her, or anything in that nature. So we was just talking, type of thing. I was going, chilling with her, spending time with her, and then like, kissing her or whatever, but I was like, trying to make her my girlfriend. But like a month before that, she messed with my brother or whatever the case may be in that situation, and she ended up being pregnant. So her mom found out she was pregnant and then pressed charges against my um, bro. So now he had sexual assault charges, because the mother of his child was underage, and he was seventeen, so it was statutory rape, basically. So anyway, um, now he has to do– they offer him seventeen, but five for the sexual assault, twelve for the murder. They didn't offer me just seventeen, because they said I was the mastermind, I was the worst one, I had the longest jacket of assaults and robbery and violent crimes, et cetera, et cetera. So now I’m like damn they lied to me, because they said they was going to work with me, get me something better if I waive myself off, and the only thing they did was drop three years off of my sentence, and still was like, seventeen, and we're not coming down from that. And seventeen in adult prison, at that. So I'm like, ugh. So the boy– my boy that um, got the ten with eighty-five, where he got ten with the eighty-five percent mandatory minimum serving, he ended up saying like, that he had did the pole and stuff like that, or that he had did something. And he was like, I'll take more time but he didn't do it, he didn't do none of that. So it was like alright, so we'll give you another year, and we'll drop your down to twelve. So he had eleven, and I had twelve years. And then my last co-defendant, he had to do twelve with the extra five, he wasn't getting lower than that.
So we took our pleas and went downstate [laughs]. Now I’m fifteen still. Wait no, no. No– I'm fifteen in the county. They already put me in county, 'cause I waived my rights, ‘cause again, the offer was just too great– work with me, not give me as much time as you possibly can give me, alright. So I’m fifteen already in the county jail. When I um, once I took my plea, they did not wait twenty-four hours to ship me out to prison. Literally, that morning, I went to CRAF, which was the reception center, where everybody goes to get classified, and then they determine where they want to send you, in terms of um, the prison that you’ll be housed at.
So everybody has to come in here. But now, what they would do, back in the day, when you come in, you got your county stuff, and the only thing you on, the only thing they tell you bring, that they’ll accept, is the jumper, that’s your county jumper, and that’s pretty much it. It's cold as hell in the morning, usually. They got you in the van, and you chained up, with in the chains, cuffed up, to your legs, all that. So you’re chained up like that, and they got you in the big ass van thing, that’s absolutely not comfortable, it’s just a cage, the only way they transport inmates these days, in New Jersey. So you in a cage, they take you to um, to CRAF. When you get in CRAF, they strip you right then and there, and say, take off everything, and then, um, they make you hold your property, that you’re gonna mail out, whatever the case may be. And there’s a box in front of you, but you’re naked. So you’re naked in like, this naked traffic line, in like the reception area in front of everybody, everybody’s just like naked. And they’re like, here, and they put you, they make you drop your box. You drop your box, and then you go in the shower, they make you take, like, a cold shower, for thirty second— not even thirty seconds, that’s too long. Like five seconds, like [makes water sounds] real quick, and they act like they gave you a shower. Then they um, put— they make you sit on the metal detector chair. The B.O.S.S. chair. And once you sit on the, um, B.O.S.S. chair— that’s like the company or whatever. So once you sit on the chair, it’s a naked chair, right, everybody is naked, you sit on where a thousand asses, a thousand men have just sat down, like, that morning, and you sit right on top of it, bare ass, shit’s disgusting. You know all types of MRSA stuff got passed around, somehow.
So then you sit on that, and then they take your property, and they say, alright, where do you want your property to go, and you’re like, home. And they’re like alright, write your address. You write your address, and then they throw that shit in the garbage. [Laughs] They throw it directly in the garbage, I’m not lying at all. They literally take all your mail from your loved ones you had while you was going through whatever you was going through in the county jail, they take all that shit, throw it in a bag. And they take whatever first outfit you came it, shit like that, when you got locked up, they throw that shit in a bag, that shit goes directly in the garbage. And then they’ll take twenty dollars from you, later on, and they charge you.
Really?
That shit’s crazy [laughs] and a lot of people don't know they do this scam bullshit all the time, they charge you for throwing your property into the garbage. Anyway, they put you in the cages, and give all y’all you lunch. Me, I came in with two or three other juveniles, they was from different counties though. So we were all like sixteen, we were both sixteen, it was me and matter of fact, it was just me and another one, and he was Alma Mater here too, he’ll be coming back to finish school here. But it was me and um, Money, his name was Money. So me and Money, I met him because we was sitting like, in the social worker thing, and because we were juveniles, they kept us like, separated from everybody, like in this weird little way, that they wasn’t really trying to make obvious. So anyway, me and him sitting there, whatever, and I look over, me and him both have this little scared punk look kid look on our face, ‘cause we both young as fuck in this adult prison, yo like what the fuck. I don't even know how to explain that feeling, I can’t even, like ugh.
It's a crazy ass feeling, like I don’t know how to even tap into it. But it’s like a trapped, controlled– I don't know but it’s like, something about having the khakis on, and then even when I’m like, sitting on a bench in a prison hallway or something, there can be no one in there. You still feel extremely trapped, like, like not move, you don't move. You know what I mean, it would be weird to move, or to go like this or something. You would just be sitting like this the whole time. Anyway, so me and— I look over to him, and I’m like, “What’s good?” He’s like, “Yo, what’s up?” And I’m like, “Yo, where are you from?” And he said, “I’m from [unclear] and shit, then the next thing, I'm like, “You banging?” [Laughs] and he was like, yeah, alright, word. So then, we start beating about that, whatever. He was like, “Word, I’m sixteen too,” and I’m like, “Word, they must got us together.” So that day, they sent me and him out from CRAF. Usually you stay in CRAF for two to three weeks, and it’s notorious for keeping you in there, and you don’t have anything, mind you, whatever you got is what the state gave you. All you got. It’s living on three hots and a cot. Literally. Which is definitely not enough food to keep you satisfied, and no sane human can just live off those three hots. Like. I hate when people be, like, at least you got three hots and a cot. Like nigger, that’s not enough. [Laughs] Three hots and a cots, you would be starving. Anyway.
So what is that exactly?
That’s just three meals, like—
No but what are the meals?
Alright so like, seven of the meals, out of say like, ten of them have word shit in the title. So you got shit in the morning, which is like, shit on a shingle. [Laughs] You got like the, lunch would be like chicken shit, or hot dogs, and then at night it’s like brown shit, [laughs] and then like, then the morning, it’d just switch between that. And then of course they’d have one like, one syrup day, would be— you’d get a syrup tray on a certain day. It’s um, like Friday mornings, it'd be syrup day. So that’d be, you’d get like two pancakes, like two little ass pancakes, and two little— and a little ass thing of butter, and a little scoop of like, the cooked eggs, the kind you throw water in, those army eggs, you get a little scoop of those army eggs, two little pancakes, and there you go. That’d be a great ass breakfast. That’s pretty much it, and milk. They’d give you milk with everything. And that’d be like breakfast, and then lunch would be— lunch of course would be like, two pieces of like, lettuce— literally two leaves, like two little leaves though, and a lot of time because it’s like, premade, it’d be like soaked in, drenched in Italian sauce– so two little wet leaves. A fucking, two little hot dogs, and a piece of cake, and two pieces of bread. And not even two rolls, two pieces of bread, and a juice that was horrible for you. You think the Juicy’s back in the day was horrible. This stuff right here, like if you This stuff is terrible, if you pour it on like, a tile floor, it will stain the floor, and you can’t get it off. Like, it's that intense. It's horrible.
Well, it seems like they are giving you the most processed, literally shit.
[Laughs] Literally.
Like, if you want to eat a healthy diet, eat whatever they don't give you in prison.
[Laughs] Yeah, I was a vegan for three years, only thing I ate was peanut butter and oatmeal and coffee and water. Simple as that.
While you were in, you were vegan?
Yeah, for three years straight. I’m gonna get to that part, because it's actually coming up.
Okay.
So meanwhile, while they were fucking going on this goofy shit or whatever. So while I was in there, I was getting into gang culture. So I should say, back when I was in juvenile thing, I had to start practicing my Din again. So like, I was— I had never did it on the streets before, and on the streets, everybody Muslim, at least in Camden. Like, That’s how it feels in Camden, like a lot of people Muslim. It’s so regular, and so common that it has no important appearance on your everyday actions. Because everyone is struggling through poverty, and dealing with it in the same ways. So it doesn't matter that I’m, you know what I mean, that you’re Muslim, and you’re supposed to be or acting salah five times a day, and if you can’t, you feel what I’m saying, fit that into your hustling, and who feels comfortable offering salah after you saw some, you know what I mean, it’s a lot, it really was some bullshit. So anyway, um, we um, start— what happens is, the only thing is, it was limited to Friday. You feel what I’m saying, Friday, feel what I’m saying. Offer salah to pretty much everyone, and their mother. Then after that, it’s back to business. So um, in prison, it was a little bit different. Now, in juvenile, they didn’t encourage us to do anything but be Christians. They had no [unclear] practices, and they knew in Camden County, that majority of us were Muslim. Like they had no Quran studies, they had no time where we could go and offer salah, the only thing they gave to us was during the month of Ramadan, they would um, hold our trays until the end of the night, and at the end of the night, they would give us our trays and then let us break our fast together, and offer salah. That was it. So– so basically, I had got a Quran when I was in juvenile, I started reading it, just like that, like a regular English Quran [laughs], you know what I mean? and then when I got to County, I got the um, the Hans Wehr? Hans Wehr, yeah, Hans Wehr dictionary– it’s an Arabic dictionary. It’s a Hans Wehr. [laughs] But everybo— it’s like the basic— it’s like almost a joke, ‘cause you know how somebody talking when they say they got the Hans Wehr.
So we used to get like this Arabic dictionary, know what I mean, get the prayers, or whatever and that's like, that’s how they start you off in county, they just give you that so you start learning like, Arabic, how to read and write, stuff like that. So like I was dibbling, dabbling. I remember like, uh, think about the first time I even said the Fatiha, Al-Fatiha, like it was so horrible. [Laughs] It sounded disgraceful. I remember, almost. Like I don't remember exactly how I was saying things, but I remember, it was just horrible. ‘Cause I remember people saying it later, the right way, and I was like no, that’s not how you say it [laughs]. So.
And I was doing the whole salah prayer wrong, all wrong. So I did it anyway, so I really dealing with the gang culture, and of course, that wasn’t mixing, cause of course, that shame, that — , you can’t have partners with guns, you know what I’m saying, um, when you gang bang, your behavior and the way you define yourself, is basically is worshipping your gang. So that's how the Muslims will always interpret it, and that’s how it was. It just was like, you know, you can't be gang banding and Muslim, come on, you bugging. So then you just be like, man, I’m saying though. So then it start always coming down though. Around 2009, 2010, the big thing became like, alright well, if the homies are at war with the Muslims, whose side you’re on, and it kept happening, because these were the two also, only organized groups in prison, and cause of course prison is made up mostly of black men, men of color. And mostly black men. And these are the two biggest things, that in terms of organization, we usually fall into, which is gangs, or practicing Islam. So that’s started tearing me apart. Um anyway, when I was in there, I started to realized that maybe I needed to learn as much as I possibly could about the gang banging thing, and if it’s— if I can rationalize that this is um, that this is somehow permissible, I’m like, maybe I can sleep better at night, or every time I go to Jummah on Fridays, maybe I don't get like, the weird stares from some of the aki, some of the older Muslims be like, you banging, ehhh [makes grumbling sound].
So anyway, um, that’s what I did, so I started learning as much as I could about the history of gangs, my gang, our entire organization, where it come from, and that started to put me into circles with the old heads. When I was in prison, I was actually, um, on a special tier– So on the tier I was on specifically, it went juveniles, um, child molesters, openly homosexual inmates, people with severe mental health issues, or like physical issues, like uh, cancer, all on the same tier with the children. So this was literally– you would think it would be a crazy tier, but it actually was the opposite, it was a very laid back tier, everybody is heavily mediated [laughs]. So everybody there is heavily medicated, but everybody there also has, like, usually more money, ‘Cause most of the demographics I just named to you, is usually white people. If you think about it, I mean like, in a lot of different ways, especially when it comes to the mental health, the mental sickness or illness, or other physical illness or health, the child molestation, so we was on there with a whole lot of pedophiles. So, the only benefit to having pedophiles on the floor with juveniles, is we could extort them, [laughs] like, almost to the point where it was ridiculous, which it was. But like, it was what it was.
So because I came in, I was well known on the streets where I’m from, you know what I mean. So when you go to prison, like that’s the first thing people, that’s how they check you and figure out if you are who you say you are, they ask somebody else from your hood if they know you. If they know you, or heard about you, then well, alright. And if they didn't– they’ll want to have a conversation. And if y’all have a conversation and you can’t find common ground, like you wasn’t around here, or you don’t know this person, they gonna look at you like you’re funny. But it’s also like real, you know, also like, heavily gang, you feel what I’m saying, dominated, so like, if you was this, this, and that. Like I was a Blood. I ain’t tell anyone I was a Blood until like, the first three days I was in the room. My bunky, fucking two hundred ten, all muscle, Jamaican immigrant [laughs] So we um, so we— he cool as hell–
This one smoked and we’re still inside prison. So he hit me and passed me a cigarette and shit. So I didn’t trust nobody though, so he tried to hand me a cigarette, so I was like, “I’m good, I don’t smoke.”
So I started making do or whatever, you feel what I’m saying, so I offer salah in the corner, I say if you don’t mind I’m gonna pray right here, and he’s like whatever. So I offer salah, that’s all I do, and I lay on the bed with my boots on [laughs] and just sit there, and just wait. I don’t know what’s gonna happen, ‘cause he had a TV, but I ain’t never wanna look at his TV, ‘cause I ain’t know if he’s just gonna be like, “Hey, you’re looking at my TV.” Then I’m just gonna die. So I was like, I’m like fuck this, I don't want no situation, and I never slept ‘cause I ain’t know if he was a creep, so I don’t want— I don’t know if he was gonna try to fuck me [laughs]. Wake up in the middle of the night, be like no, that’s like the worst feeling, like imagine waking up and not being able to do nothing about it. Like, that’s why I used to— oh man, that's what led to me, why I was torturing these pedophiles. Like I understood way back then that there was something wrong with them, in terms of, that their sickness was based on the control they had in their lives, and the more control they have on a certain person, that they can manipulate and gain stuff out of sexually, like sexual favors and whatnot, um like, the more they are satisfied, whatever, and they feed their demon. And I understood this also, because my mom used tell me about um, her childhood abuse, sexual abuse as a child. ‘Cause I was almost— I was molested as a child as well, so anyway. So we, so we extort them like 80/20 type of thing, like as soon as they get— so their family still support and love them.
We were fifteen, sixteen in prison, and we was still, like, fucked up. Poverty still affects you in prison, ‘cause if your family can't support themselves, they can’t support you in prison. And if you don't have support in prison is not, like, easier because you have food and a roof over your head. You still like, would be hungry as fuck, you know what I mean, that still would bother you constantly. You still want, like, love, support, letters, things of that nature, and like, I wasn't getting any of that, just like the other people that was there wasn’t getting any of that. The only thing we had was our gang. And in there, we had an operation where we’d have people come and visit us. Like, it’d be like little girl, uh, little home girls from the area. And they would come in, and they’d just you know, visit whatever, they might have stuff, a spliff whatever. So we’d make money off of weed like that.
Anyway, we’d also be making money by extorting the pedophiles, going to them, ‘cause again, their family send them two hundred dollars every month, so they don’t have to worry about nothing [laughs]. So we was like, okay, you get your two hundred dollars worth of food, I’m willing to eat one sixty of that, thank you. And my homie just came from [unclear] and he fucked up right now, he need a TV. And he need your canteen. So that just was regular. And everything we was taking from them was put into a community, um, kitty. So that anybody could, if they had nothing, if anybody needed anything, they were fucked up,, whatever, we had that. Then we got to a point that we had so much, that we used it every now and then, for like gambling purposes, or whatever, or we’ll make uh, community hookups, we’ll feed everybody, you know [laughs]. And then we wouldn’t even let them use the microwave. It was, keep food out of the microwave. [Laughs] That was fucked up, but it was a good times for me, for real.
Like I used to just look at his face, and go, well, you shouldn’t have touched that little girl, or raped her until her asshole bleed, like you luckily we don’t stab you up, you know what I mean. That pretty much was the situation. And like, sometimes, like, if they ever offer, like, any resistance, like I was always the first person to go in there to smack the shit out of them, and be like, “What? You’re not doing what?” And they would be, like, just, “Alright, alright, okay.” So anyway, um, one day, um, an incident happen, where basically, I was almost sent to ASAG, ‘cause we almost murdered this big racist white dude. Because we thought he was like; telling on our operations. So I went in the room, had this whole operation with the CO, who was, like, suffering from domestic violence all the time from her husband. She was an officer, her officer was a lieutenant, not just a supervisor, but her husband, in the same building, on the same shifts, and he was such a scumbag that sometimes he would assault her in the parking lot, and make her come to work that day. Like she’d come in the office with a black eye, like she’d come on the tier with a black eye, a swollen lip, and still like, wiping blood, or whatever the case may be. And then still have to come and tell her coworkers that nothing is happening, and then have to be in a position of power over the rest of us, you know what I mean. And of course, I’m not pro-blue at all, I’m a prison abolitionist, I’m completely anti-pig, but to put a human being through that shit, can you imagine the amount of stress that woman used to go through, like god damn. And that used to fuck me up, like on the regular. So anyway, she was like, [laughs] the pocket, more or less, she was the pocket. And she helped finesse the situation, where she act like somebody assaulted her, but it really was just like, us beating him up, and then she had the rest of the officers come beating him up on top of that. So he was in the hospital, whole thing. Anyway, they sent me to ASAG, which is Administrative Segregation area, um, it’s solitary confinement. So before you get to ASAG, you go to solitary confinement first, that’s the place where they take your clothes, and you have nothing, you’re just naked, whatever the case may be, they just put you in there. They found a way to like, put me in that situation, saying they found out it was me, um, you feel me. They didn’t find out it was me from me. But they found out somehow, and they put the cuffs on me super tight that day. So when they came, brought me in to ask me questions, they put the cuffs on so tight that my hands turned red. And I already had— like my hands is a little lighter, from, I used to have OCD, and used to wash my hands; whatever, so they were super light, they were pink and red but it’s because they had the cuffs on tight. But they was, like, look Sarge, his hands were pink and red, he must have just been fighting. [Laughs] That means he was just fighting. That’s how you know it was him [laughs]. So then I was like, okay, it was him.
Anyway. So they gave me fifteen days solitary confinement. Before six months of ASAG, which is like, no contact, no free time, just in a room, everyday, you come out every other day for a shower, and once a week for like, a yard of some sort. Um, so I did all those— I did all that, and that was when I lost my mind. So I had a mental breakdown, because one, when they first bring you into ASAG, they strip you. When they strip you, they put you in a cage, and then you’re in a cage where all the other rooms can see you, except for like the two tiered walls that’s above you. So now you’re cuffed up, chained, naked inside this cage, and now everybody’s yelling at you, ‘cause now they wanna see who you are, what you did, why you in here for. But they all wanna do that at once. And then you gotta yell because everybody’s always yelling. So the officers trying to drown out the yelling, so they put this newspaper and this industrial fan, so the blade would constantly hit the newspaper. So now it’s like, [makes sound effect of fan hitting paper] so you can’t— you can hear that, but then everybody yelling on top of that. And now [makes yelling sounds], they banging on the door, trying to call you or say yo yo yo, you feel me? It never occurs to somebody that one person might want to do that at a time, we will never see anybody else. So as soon as you see someone new, you’re like straight to the door trying to yell out what you got to yell out, and it just happens in a chorus.
So anyway, I’m like, yeah, so I'm finally focused on one or two people, and then I’m just like, I’m banging, simple as that, I’m banging, I’m from Camden, what’s good? And then one of my co-defendants, he was in ASAG at the time so that made me feel better, but only for like, five minutes, ‘cause I went in the room, and then I realized, they were like, look, Sarge, he can’t have nobody in the room with him ‘cause he’s a juvenile. It was like, so what are you gonna do? And it’s like, leave him in a room by himself. So while everybody else got a chance to have a bunky with them, I was just in there by myself. For a good si— it was two or three months at first. Two or three months go by, and I was fucking like, the only thing I was in there— first of all, the room’s disgusting. They’re supposed to clean it before you get in there, but what they really do is just sweep the room as soon as you about to come in there. Mind you, cuffed up, naked, um, they keep you cuffed up until you’re in the room and the door closes. Then the officer comes through a gate, then come to you, then open the fucking slot and look inside. So anyway, so my room was filthy, like all types of, you feel what I’m saying, um, ejaculation stuff in certain corners, dried boogers right on the wall, where whoever sleeps next to just went pshh. It was disgusting, yeah.
And then the walls are tacked up with different types of gang messages to each other, that we know we’ll read and just be angry about it, and then we’ll add and let the next person read it. So I’m reading that, I’m reading that, I’m reading everything though; there’s something here about Bloods, there’s something here about Crips, and they beef in they own circle right here, tagged up, you see Such-and-such a killer, and then you see someone wrote over it and slashed over it, like, suck my dick, and da da da. Then you have Latin Kings beefing with MS13, and Mexican Mafia throw something in there and then the [unsure] niggers will say something. Then you have all types of white supremacist stuff on this side, and that’d be like, you know, 88 and 14 and such and such, “kill all bigger babies,” all that dumb shit. So there’d be mad shit. And then there’d be one sentence every now and then, I’ll never forgot this sentence on the wall, when I first went there, that said, the shit said, “You’re not a man if you come in prison and left banging, but you are man if you came in nothing, and left nothing.” [Laughs]
So that shit just was like, it was just was one of those things in there, ‘cause I was a gang banger and I just was like, oh. Damn. Like something positive like, was in this whole thing, you know what I mean? So I finally– but that was just like, the first time I was by myself, alone with my thoughts and I had to deal with my self-reflection. So in that, I should mention, so ASAG is three hots and a cot also, however, usually in prison, you have a canteen, where you can order like, a hundred— it’s usually like a hundred fifty, two hundred dollars, which is like, supplementary food, like snacks, like food you can cook with, noodles, oatmeal, peanut butter, stuff like that. At ASAG, they actually cut it to fifteen dollars, and instead of being every two weeks, it’s once a month. So it’s fifteen dollars of extra food that you usually need to, like, have that last meal. ‘Cause they serve you dinner at 4:20. So you want that meal around five, six o’clock, you start getting hungry again and you couldn’t have it, basically, and you only have that fifteen dollars. And if you smoke, that was part of your fifteen dollars, cigarettes were like five dollars.
Anyway, so it's safe to say, though I was fucked up, and I just sat there to myself, and that was too much. I just contemplating, am I really in here? Am I really in this little ass box? When was the last time showered? And when is the last time somebody asked if I showered. Then I tried to figure out my existence, who am I, and the hell what does it mean to be me right now, and how do I define that, and I start to think about all the things that I know about Blood, and the history, and the connect to the Crips, and the Black Panther Party. Even though learning about Black Panther Party, I didn't have a world view yet, I didn’t understand how to intently read something to discover the political message or something. I didn’t have good analysis skills. But at this time, I definitely read enough that I can retain the information I have read over. I still understood, and I was like, wait hold the fuck up, and if the Panther Party was doing all of this, and they had direct attacks from the FBI, to make them into public enemy number one— which all gang members at this time had to know this, especially if your set was a set originally founded on the West Coast.
So we was um— so I really think about this shit, If I’m suppose to be a Blood, which stands for brotherly love over operation in society, which meant Blood is, and I was like I’m not living that, and I can’t be Blood, ‘cause I’d be living in a contradiction, I would be lying to myself, and I didn’t want to lie to myself anymore. I was like, I definitely can’t be lying to myself anymore. Then I also was like, what the fuck, like I have another ten years, thinking about that shit was like, ugh. So then I was just crying everyday, and not doing nothing, and then I found some open grease under the bed. I just started masturbating all my days, which is horrible. I was trying to feel something, I guess. Then I finally saw a TV show, and at that time, I was sixteen, still only been in Camden for the most part, and been up North Jersey a few times, and I saw uh, this documentary and in ASAG, one of the things they do that makes them so horrible, not only do they keep you away from contact, they try to um, minimize the effect not having human contact, and not being able to be in the yard, or rehabilitate the correctional facility. The negative depressive effects they have on you, so they give you a TV once you go to a phase. They let you watch TV, they let you watch whatever you want. But the third shift officer would turn your TV off at ten, as soon as he walks in, so now you’re just sitting in the dark. It’s constantly yelling all night, so you can’t get no sleep. So you stay up all night, and in the morning-time, they offer shower or recreation, the only time coming up for that week, And when they’ll do that is when you’re passed out, ‘cause you didn't get any sleep that night until four in the morning..
So I was getting sleep deprived, trying to stay up to do something. Anyway, there was one CO on the weekend, who was actually a person. What he would do is he would leave the TV on all day and night long. I was able to watch a show that would only come on the weekends, so I could watch without someone turning it off. So I watching all these Korean dramas, because the story plots are so long and complex, they go through relationship and emotions. And then I was able to use that as analogy on my own life, to reflect on that. Like every time there was a father son relationship or something. ‘Cause my dad dropped out of my life around six, ‘cause he was busy, he was hustling, but we never had a conversation or none of that, and then I didn't see him at all when he moved to South Jersey, in the suburbs, with my little sister and his girlfriend. So I haven’t seen him since then. I spoke on the phone with him a couple times, but anyway I'm watching these Korean dramas now, I’m having these different existential wakenings now, I’m realizing what it does mean to me, and all the shit I’ve been through and how that can be different, or look different type of thing. Then I saw this documentary on these kida were going on like, martial arts trip to China, and I was like what the fuck, that’s what I should be doing, they were like sixteen. I’m like, why the fuck am I not over in another country trying to fucking training with masters, in Kung Fu, this is bullshit. And once I seen that, I just was like I gotta expand my fucking horizon, or something, whatever the fucking word was. So I started reading. When I was home, the only time I read was when I got interested in like a fiction, usually, I had to get interested in it, smoke weed and just chill and read itS like I would ditch my friends and read my book all the time. Once I started reading, it really brought me back ‘cause now I was really focused on what was happening inside the book, and now I only can live in books, and I ain’t want to live outside of books ‘cause I’m in ASAG. So I was just only in books for weeks and weeks and weeks, ‘cause I was reading a book a day.
How did you get the books?
Oh so it’s this fucking deplorable ass library cart comes by, tore up pages and you kinda guess which one you want to get the most out of, and hopefully it's a two-hundred and fifty page book, and it’s like two hundred pages that I could get. The only books that were in good condition were fantasy fiction or European romance novels, and I was like, oh man. So I started reading all those shits, I was like fuck that, I’m reading it, like if it’s on the cart, I’m reading it. So I read everything, and that developed my reading habit that I hadn't had for awhile.
So I finally left ASAG— let me tell you how I left ADSG. When I was in ASAG, one day the IA came to me, and said we have um—listen, um, we got some news for you. Everybody on the tier, or a majority of the inmates on the tier wrote a statement, that you guys are juveniles, and you were manipulated by the CO, and she said if you didn't do her bid, or she threatened to send you to jail, if you didn’t do it, whatever the case may be. Two of the people who were locked up for this; or charged for this particularly, already signed the statements that corroborate your story, and so we’re gonna able to get you out early, or whatever, we’re going to make sure you leave now. And they was like, quite honestly, we don’t need to get too crazy or too public, they alluded to that. So I was like, oh alright, and they were like yeah, just sign here. And I was like, yeah, there’s just one thing though. [Laughs] I’m like, sorry, but I'm a straight up gangster, I’m not signing none of that shit. Like I straight up said it to his face, like yo, I’m not signing nothing, you wiling, you will never get nothing out of me. I’m not signing nothing. I don’t care if you say that I’ll go home today, I’m not signing nothing, I’m not telling. I don’t do that. They were like, no, we’re just trying to— and I’m like, alright, I understand all that shit, but I’m not telling. If they said that in the statement, they said it, what more do you need from me? My story don’t make it more true. And you already said this don’t want to go out anyway, big, so you already told me that this is something you don’t want public? You wiled out. I’m like, [unclear], why am I even here, you hear to tell me I’m leaving, or are you just hear to tell me you’re leaving? Like what you really doing. They was mad as hell [laughs]. But I definitely left the next day, [laughs] and when I got out the next day, I was like, yo, I gotta change my life though.
How long into that was–
That was four months, I had to do six months, yeah, and that was like four months into it, and it was already like one twenty passed, a hundred and twenty days had passed. I was like sheesh. But they let me out. I got out, um, and I started reading and trying to really educate myself, that’s what really had a greater impact, and I stopped gang banging as hard, and started leaning more toward practicing Din.
So once I switched prisons, um, it was a gang war going on in one of those years, 2009, 2010, the streets, my co-defendant, his set was one of the sets that was beefing, but they also knew me and him were like this. Now, I’m not labelled as a gang member, on any file, specifically, but they know I maybe have been gang affiliated, you know what I mean. That’s like always something that they weren’t sure about, but again I don't give out no information. They ain’t never heard nothing from me. I don't say nothing nowhere, not talking about anything, simple as that. So they um, basically was like, um, we gonna ship you out too. So they shipped me a different prison, which was a worst prison. When I say worse, at this time, this was like, the worst prison. It was called the Gladiator School. When you go there, it’s so open and different, like, everyone there is young and it’s all open. The other prison was youngish, and you know what I mean, from the ages I would say, from eighteen to about um, thirty-five, like densely in the mid-twenties. The prison I had went to was eighteen to twenty-five, so densely in the twenty-one, twenty-two area. So everybody, like, just came from the youth prison, whatever the case may be, and everybody came from streets, nobody had a lot of time in the tiers I was in. When I first came there, I was in a dorm environment. First time in a dorm environment. So now, even though I was just like, it was Ramadan too, when they transferred me, I’ll never forget it, it was Ramadan, so they brought me over and I was fasting but at the same time I was fucking weary. I was like, this fucking Gladiator School. Um, anyway, they let— I was on the intake tier until Ramadan was over, then they sent me to a tier that I actually stayed at, which was called F-lane, this shit’s called the jungle. They always have a jungle tier in prison. And the jungle don't mean nothing, it just mean that, that’s where people have the least, and they are most affected by that stress of not having a lot of those things.
Because in prison, you only acquire things two ways– by time or through, like, family support. So if they support you from the beginning and they send you a lot of money, or whatever the case may be, you’ll be able to buy whatever you need in the canteen, all that good stuff, sweaters for the winter, but if you don’t have that, you won’t acquire that until you have time behind you, because you’re just gathering things until you have enough to like sustain you long term. So usually like the jungle tiers are people that don't have anything, like either their families don’t support them or they’re just starting off in their bed, like, they fresh. So of course, both. And there’s a few people that families do support them, but so many people don’t. So now that’s the tier that everybody fight, like everybody’s just fighting all the time over every little thing. That’s where everybody’s gang banging the most heavily. Everything is about the gang, everything, like every card game, every TV show, music, whatever, is gang related, or finds some way to get back gang related, and it's crazy. So they sent me to this place, so now, my set again has never had a lot of people. For like, little reasons that basically I was just saying, we were like specialty, so most of the other gangs had high populations.
So when I get in the tier, and I’m a teenager, the first dude, he going to come up to me, and is like, yo what’s good, you banging? And I’m like, yeah, you feel me. And he is like, oh alright, I’m saying though, everybody down here already got their hat on, so you might as well, feel what I’m sayin’, just throw your hat on, and I’m like what, [laughs], I ain’t never flip myself, he sounded crazy saying that I might as well be his set ‘cause everybody else is your set. I don’t give a fuck about your set. I say that and he was like, nah for real, niggas punch on you like that, they’ll fight you for that, and I was like okay let’s go to the corner, and that was my first fight. And then what had ended up happening was, it was me and another juvenile but his set that he was a part of was like, everybody, so he never had no issues ‘cause everybody was his set, and it was the easiest set to get into, it was just like, you say that’s your boy, that’s your set. So like he never had issues and he was in prison, and in prison, like, you don't have too many hard constrictions between um, your like, ethnicity if you’re Hispanic of some sort, if your Latinx, you don't have— it’s blurred lines unless you in a gang. So he was in a gang, he was Boricua, so he was good anyway, he spoke Spanish, so he was good. He was Blood too, but he was Blood and Boricua. It wasn't like being Blood and Muslim with both communities constantly at each other's throats and shit like that. It’s like, that’s his ethnicity so he hang with them. And they speak Spanish together and he a Blood, so all the homies fuck with him, ‘cause he’s from the hood, etcetera, etcetera.
Any, for me, I was Muslim, and like, Muslims wasn’t really never going to save you from an issue you get into with your gang, because they’d be like, well that’s what you do, if you want to do that, we’re going accept you in the Muslim community, in terms of practicing the Din, but when it comes to that shit, we out of it. And then the Bloods are the same way, but there was never really an issue with the Muslim community like that, unless someone was stealing or something. But anyway, so um, they um, they basically— it was always just me, and I had my homies, and anyway, so that was me fighting all the time, constantly fighting like grown ass men, and mind you, I’m seventeen at the time, and fighting twenty, twenty-five years old. All these dude dudes were coming in the tier, and they got the floor because they got the most amount of rank or whatever. And then they be, like, everybody hold down whatever set they are, and everybody in the middle gotta fall in line type of thing. So I’d be in the middle where I’d have to fall in line to something. [Laughs] ‘Cause I’m not falling in like that.
Eventually, some Muslims moved in and some old heads in the Muslim community got me moved the tier where I was supposed to be. Which is a tier where everybody there got hella time. I had ten years still, which also made me dangerous. Because whenever anything happened I’m like, ready to go, I’m on the front lines. So then some old heads got me on they tier, but on that tier, it was a lot more calmer. Way more calmer. The environment was much more family oriented, it was, like, friendly to an— in a lot of ways, you feel what I’m saying? The officer already knew everybody, everybody’s already been there for a long time. It’s not even like the same type of prison that I’m used to, now I’m on the tier where I can do what I want. Nobody starves in that tier, everyone supports everyone. So it just, like— I got welcomed into a whole new environment, a whole new atmosphere. And in that atmosphere, I was able to thrive um, just like, as a studious Muslim, you feel what I’m saying?
And I was still going to school, ‘cause I never finished high school. So once I got there though, the more I started getting into Din, and studying, and practicing, and this one uh, [unclear] would come over to my room, and he would critique everything about my entire life right there in one moment [laughs]. He would come over, and just be like, he’d be like, “Ew, [sniffs] what's that smell in here?” He was like, “And why your bed not made, oh and um, do this over there, and you need to clean your toilet right here, da da da, and you ain’t shave your underarms yet? It’s only been [unclear].” So he would come in and do all that to me in one shot, then he’d be like, “Um alright, and I want you to read this too, and you need to read it by the time we get to here so we can talk about it tomorrow.” [Laughs] I’m like, this nigga. But anyway, so I started doing that, and he was the Emir at the time, under the Imam. And the Imam, then started chilling— I started being in that circle more, so the Imam started reaching out to me more. We had more conversations, I started coming to the Arabic classes and the Quran studies classes. Where basically, you know what I mean, we studied the science of Hadith, we studied um, Quran, and we also be teaching each other different stories, so we’ll do that. Then we will teach, like, the beginning beginners like, the alphabet, how to read and everything, and then how to recite, and the Tajweed rules, and the Quran, so you can just go over it. And then once my younger brother– he’s not my real brother, but I call him my brother, he got— kind of followed the same paths I took, gang banging, even though I was trying to keep him away from it. But then he got indicted, or then he got charged and sentenced for a double homicide that he did with a couple of his homies. And he had, like, thirty years.
So once I found that out, I felt like the gang had completely manipulated too many lives, and had taken so much away. And I just felt it so personally with him. So then I was like, um– the dude that I had— that was on my tier, that I talked to this morning. He was my martial arts trainer, and he, like, um, he was there and he said, “Yo, I remember that.” I had called all the homies in the room, everybody had to stand, everybody from the tier was in the room. And the room is little as hell, by the way, it’s like half this size. So it’s like, ten dudes in this little ass room, stuck in the room, like all sitting down on the beds and shit, trying to figure out why I just called like, a [unclear]. So I was like, “Look. My little brother has thirty years for fucking with y’all dumbass mob homies or [unclear] homies or whatever. All’s I know is, you feel what I’m saying, I’m not banging no more. I’m just Muslim, like you already know what I’m all about. Like I stab shit, whatever, like y’all want to do something now, y’all want to do something later, I’m with it, but I’m definitely not going to be Blood. I’m not— Don't shake my hand no more, don’t peace me, none of that shit. If you want to be cool with me like that, it’s cool, but I’m Muslim.
So they didn't know how to take me, ‘cause I’m usually quiet, like I would stay in my room and read. So I really didn't say anything to anyone for a year and a half, but them niggas was like, no, you good bro, and niggas is good shit. Well I’m like, I’m just letting y’all niggas know, and if you tell other people to gas me up and want to come back and address this, it’s gonna be the same position. Just know if I fuck with you now, I’m stabbing you though. So my boy was like, “Dang bro, you gonna stab me up?” And I was like, you gotta go bro, I’m not playing, don’t come to my room, say nothing that I don't want to hear. Then I was finally able to— I felt like I was released. I was finally able to, like, ahh. I’m not trapped anymore. I didn’t have to worry about issues that weren’t issues that they made issues anymore. [Laughs] You feel what I’m saying? Like literally, Everything that I said, that's what they did constantly, they were like, “Oh, we found out that he sent a letter,” —because everyone in prison at this time was extremely homophobic, extremely homophobic— “we found out he sent a letter to such-and such-, he fucks with boys.” And then they all try to jump on his ass for that, or someone might be, like, I don’t know, lie about stuff.
At this time, Crips couldn’t live in prison, like in New Jersey, especially in youth prison. You could not be a Crip and say you was in there. Like matter of fact, if you were that Crip in the door, the officer would be like, “You Crip? Might as well go back now.” He was like, you wanna check in right now or how you wanna do this?” And then they already know, because they hear about it. So when they’d get down there, they’d be like yo, we out, we ain’t staying here. So that was one of the ultimate, like, things that happened in record, that was like a no go, unless you was Crip, was to be like check in, like I can’t stay here because I don’t feel safe, type of thing. That’s like, a crazy thing to have on your reputation, crazy. Anyway, they was, like, they will all come together to do that. Like they’ll come together to do this like that.
But I remember when I was on the juvenile tier, my fucking homie couldn’t fucking read, like I had to teach him how to read, and then all the homies in his set, ain’t none of them teach him how to read, I don’t understand motherfuckers, you feel me? Those were my feelings at the time. Now I have a different class analysis of why these things are the situation, but at the time, I was just so angry, like, I don’t understand, how the fuck you niggas never wanna come together to help something or do something positive, when these fucking pigs are bashing our teeth in, telling us we niggers and shit, we don’t come together and do them in, or when they say yo, be quiet or lock-in, you lock-in. But when a Crip come in, you feel what I’m sayin’, and he just wants to do his time like the rest of us, came in for the same reasons we came in for, now he can’t stay here because who his homies are. So that shit just really started to get under my skin, and once I was in the Muslim community more and more, and once I started studying more and more, like, I was um, the [unclear], you feel what I’m saying, I was the Emir at the time, I was sharif-ing, you feel what I’m saying, the whole community. A lot of brothers that was going the half-Blood, half-Muslim thing, would come up there, and then have like, their little separate gang meetings. And I had to let them know like, yo, the only thing that’s happening up here is Tahwid [laughs], if you’re not doing that son, you gotta go. So then that’d be a whole other beef, and just–
Anyway, my time doing that, spent like, um, practicing the Din, and just trying to stay to myself, was also the time where my family just didn't talk to me at all, so like, I was like, still hungry and starving. And that’s how I was rationalizing getting through those nights, you feel what I’m saying? Because I was just like, alright well, as long as I, you feel what I’m saying, just go stupid, dumb, crazy, you feel what I’m saying, worshipping Allah, like, I’d be good. That was like the first time though, even though in retrospect, it’s a form of, um– for me personally, it’s a form of giving myself up to something, um, like submission, obviously, you feel what I’m saying. But I was submitting in a way in which I felt as though I didn't own my body, to a point where I felt I needed to make it healthy as possible, you feel me? ‘Cause like, what’s what they teach in the Din, too, you feel what I’m saying, like, your body is your vehicle, but it’s a vehicle that Allah has given you it, so you show your appreciation by taking care of it. So I took that shit to heart, so I started working out heavy, um, training like martial arts, Muay Thai and JKD and whatnot. And then I was like, doing the most, in terms of studying and reading, and all that shit. And school, I was also going to vocational class, whatever. So like, my whole life then was, like, focused around education. And the more I started to study Din, the more I started to expand what I was studying, because I was like, constantly thirsty and I wasn't getting enough books from [unclear] fast enough [laughs], for real. For real. I wasn’t getting enough books fast enough. I was like, alright, I gotta read, study something, throw myself into something. So I started sneaking in the college classes while I was in prison, while I was still, like, seventeen. That's when I started getting real cool with [unclear], ‘cause I was sneaking into classes, and he was in them classes, like, “Yo, what you doing here, ain’t you seventeen?” And I was like, “Yeah,” [laughs]. I’m like, “Yo. shh, teacher ain’t gonna ask, bro, I’m just in here.”
So I was like, taking college classes like that, and the teacher started noticing, so they was like, yo, why don’t you come to my non-credit course about like, creative writing or something. So I would take all those classes, and then, um, then that's when I was introduced to new ways to think about certain shit. Then I was like, hmm. Oh um, I took an aptitude test, for the vocation thing, and when I took the aptitude test, it basically was like, you can be whatever you want. All the check marks was in all the boxes, for my math, language, reasoning, analytical skills, all that shit. So it was just was, like, on everything. So I showed [unclear], I’m like, yo, bro, look, this shit says I can do whatever I want. He was like, “Oh, yo, look at your math score, you could be a fucking computer engineer or some shit, you want to read this computer language with me?”
So I’m like, “Hell yeah.” So I started studying C++ with him, and then we start working on, like, working together to make a video game. So that was like, you feel what I’m saying, like a new avenue that I had been introduced to, so now that shit was interesting as hell to me. So now I’m fucking reading that shit, and I was like, you know what, I wanna learn Japanese. Fuck that. [Laughs] I just wanna learn Japanese, for no other reason, other than I just need to learn Japanese. And I started learning Japanese, [laughs], yeah. So that all was consuming me. All my educational pursuits consumed my time completely, all my focus. Um, then I started studying quantum physics, and that’s when I started studying philosophy, and you– once you study quantum physics, to be honest, you’re going to dabble in meta-physical philosophy, just off the simple face that quantum physics poses so many questions about your reality, that you can’t necessarily explain, mathematically or otherwise.
So once I, like, got into that, that started like, interrupting like, my whole process I usually go through, when it comes to Din. Because now, I was determinous, but it was another– I was trying to rabbit hole everything down, into like, Islamic ideology and logic. Not to mention, like, I was also like– when I say I was studious in Islam, and I sound extremist, I’m like, dead ass serious. Like, I started studying like, um, Wahhabi and I was really like a– practicing a Salafi da’wah. So I was like, super extreme like, with everything I was into, when it comes to Islam. And um, I just always equated the hard– the most hardcore, and like, and like closest I can stick to the [unclear], is I can, equates how hard I believe, and my love, you feel what I’m saying, et cetera, et cetera. So like, that was in conjunction while I was studying quantum physics, so that just started to break all the way up [laughs], ‘cause then I was like, wait hold the fuck up. I’m like, wait hold, hold, hold, hold. And then I’m like studying philosophy, and also my major– I don't know why I say it’s a major, but it pretty much was a major, when it came to Islamic Studies, was the history of Islam, and um, and the history of the prophet Mohammed, so, so– every time I’m look– I’m reading his history, and learning about his life, and everything, the more he and like, um– him and like, all other prophets, et cetera, et cetera, in Islam, like they all just seemed like radicals and activists to me, and then I just was reading about radicals as well, ‘cause now I’m taking college classes with these left wing ass– these leftie ass professors, that was like, “Oh I think you guys should read some like, James Baldwin, and have you really read Malcolm X,” you feel me? “Have you really read Martin Luther King?” I’m starting to get some of these type of um, things, and um, assignments in class. And now I’m starting to buy books that I can’t get. So I'm working with different teachers, and this one officer that basically raised me. Um, he was from a hood, and he basically was like, my father figure, for real, for real. But, like, he would bring me books now, so now I’m building my own, like, political ideology from the ground up. And like, that takes me like, completely out of the water of where I was like, was, you feel what I’m sayin’, just like, a year before that.
So by the time I’m say, wait– two thousand, so I’m twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two– Alright, so by the time I’m twenty-two, I’m fully in college, I like helped build the new college program that they have in prison, the New Jersey STEP program, because in Bordentown, we had the most functional college program, in terms of, like, the students like, was getting like, a decent general like, array of the credits they needed, they had like, more graduates than other prisons, um, and they had consistent faculty and staff members that came in to teach college classes. So New Jersey STEP came in to really organize that in a way that they can apply it to the rest of the state. But they started with Bordentown, with us. And they started with a student advisory board, which was me, this other kid that just started going here ‘cause he just came home in June [laughs], my best friend who still in prison, and um, and my boy Big [unclear], that go to Newark Rutgers right now, he’s doing his thing. So, we all was in the room, and you know, the director came in, and she was like, look, you guys got the best recommendations, highest GPAs, and most amount of credits, than everybody else, and we want to work with y’all to like, train the faculty members coming in here, so we can have like, a relationship between the staff members and the students, so it’s more like a community, et cetera. So that, like, started me having more close relationships with my instructors and professors, and to the point where they were like, starting to funnel in extra information that was outside in the curriculum. Like, “Oh, you also want to read this? Here, read this.” And that just started to open my world view, like completely. So then like, my whole entire like, world as a Muslim came crashing down [laughs], which was like, devastating to me, because I don’t know– not everybody’s the same. Like, some of these um, skeptics and atheists, and other people, you feel what I’m sayin’, especially in a radical community, like in the left, on the left, you feel what I’m sayin’, they haven't always had backgrounds, necessarily, where they had this like, that deep and love and completely worshiping, or whatever the case may be, and then found a way outside of that, just through pure like, self reflection and like, understanding of like, a new world view. Like a lot of them just have these old antagonist, you know what I mean, views and they don’t even know anything about what they’re antagonizing, you know what I mean? [Laughs] So it makes them like, a little bit detached, but for me, it just was like– for them, it’s easy to be like, “You know what? Fuck institutionalized religion, I’mma move on. But for me, it just like, like, yo, this is the only thing that saved my life [laughs], like, how can I not continue to understand– like, feel the same way I just felt about it. But at the same time, after I made a promise not to lie to myself, like, I just couldn’t live with the contradiction. And like, I couldn’t like– less and less, I was able to do something that I felt, like, like– ‘cause before, before I ate my meal, I say [a blessing]. [Laughs] You feel what I’m saying? Like, before every single meal. Before I use the bathroom. When I walk inside the door, I say like, [laughs], you know what I mean? Like I’m that crazy, that’s how radical I am. Like, walking in and out the bathroom, you know what I’m saying, I’m coming like that. And like, when I put my shoes on, like, [laughs] when I take it off my left foot. Like I was doing the whole nine, like literally every aspect of my life. I had to use my right hand for everything now, like now I’m ambidextrous, ‘cause I’m left-handed originally, but then I had to eat and everything with my right hand, so like, you know what I mean? Anyway. Muslims in jail are extreme. [Laughs] We be doing the most. We do the absolute most.
We had little stickers, the prayers, on the closet door for when we put on our clothes, on the bathroom door for when we walk in, on the other side of the bathroom door [laughs], I know exactly what you mean.
[laughs] Exactly.
I lived in Saudi with that, we had the stickers up everywhere [laughs].
Mm-hmm, exactly. that’s exactly how, yeah, so that's how we get in there [laughs]. Terrible, terrible, terrible [laughs]. Anyway, um–
It's not bad to have a reminder–
Nah, yeah, it’s not, yeah exactly,
You know what I mean, I still do that now, even though I’ve gone through a transformation, as well.
Yeah, but– yeah, me too. Actually, I was just like, offering the other day [laughs]. But it’s not the same way, but it’s just so meditative for me, like I still, even still, like I said, and I still like, you feel what I’m sayin’– you know. But anyway, um, so anyway, once I was going through that shit, that shit was like [makes exploding sound], then I started studying knowledge of self. My little brother that came down, he was a five-percenter, so I started studying with them. But then I got too advanced for them, so then, right– ‘cause I was so– Like I said, I’m an extremist, so I go in, um, I know, I know all the hundred and twenty degrees, I learned all them, that’s like my favorite thing to do, is like, memorize oral history. So I go all hundred and twenty degrees, know all of them. Then I started reading other people, who break all of them down, so I start seeing all their historical relevance, why they would say that degree, and I learned the whole cypher. And then my brother just used to be like, [laughs] he just couldn’t understand how I was getting, like, this advanced. So when we meet other five-percenters, it was weird for him to say, you feel what I’m saying, like he helped enlighten me, ‘cause I’m now, like, you feel what I’m saying, obviously way ahead of him. So now when I talk to them though, they are like way behind them, and I’m like, understand like, is the only thing you got out of this is that you’re a god, like [laughs], like do you not understand what those three letters meant, like, in the spiritual history of humanity? I’m trying to like, go in with somebody on history and they barely know, like, where five-percenters even come from, type of thing. So that was like, excruciating to me.
Um, so, I started some other things, that was close to basically black nationalism, and a lot of like, Afrocentric philosophies, spiritual practices. And that just kind of, what it really did, that just opened me up to like, understanding more about who I was, because that was really the main reason why I was going to– I was going to– I was like, finding different niches, and different cultures and everything. ‘Cause I really didn’t understand my own. ‘Cause you’re so detached from it, and it’s been so attacked and antagonized. So once I was able to reattach to my roots, on like an informational level, and like a practical level, that started to draw me closer and closer, out of like, the black nationalist spiritual aspect to my learning, to a more concrete, activist, you feel what I’m sayin’, philosophical, political thought type of thing. So then um, I met one of my professors, who actually, I'm being presented on one of his papers next month at this conference or whatever, it’s super dope. But, yeah [laughs]. But when I first met him, he’s the one that actually radicalized me. Because he was the first person I met, that was like me, but in like, an adult version. If I can say that [laughs], right, ‘cause I was an adult, but I was like, twenty-two, again. He was like, thirty, maybe or something like that, just getting his PhD, you feel what I’m saying, he was like, sharp though, so like– and he was like, kinda like hood, like he straight– he hood, like he a regular nigga, like, you feel what I’m sayin’. When he walk into class, he’d be like, “Hi, I’m uh, Doctor Johnson, um, I’ll be your instructor for the evening,” whatever the case may be, while the door is still open. He’s like, did everybody come in yet? Yeah? He’d shut the door, he’d be like, “Alright, so look.” [Laughs] Like, I promise you, he’d be like, “Alright, so look, y’all niggas is in a certain situation, I am too. You feel me, I’m here to make sure y’all get the information you need, so when y’all get out there, y’all become a threat, and y’all [unclear], simple as that.” Like, that’s exactly how the class started.
Right.
We were supposed to be learning American history, right? [Laughs] We were learning um, this radical ass fucking history, it was– we were learning the stratification of the races in American society [laughs] from eighteen whatever, you know what I mean?
So you were learning American history.
Exactly, [laughs] we were learning actual American history. And like, literally, actually– he doesn’t even know that he did this, but he did this, through liberating um, through liberating me, ideologically, racially. Then I understood the class analysis of it, because actually what he was doing was showing that all races were stratified during the time– during this period in American history, because their relations to the labor, you feel what I’m sayin’?. So of course, like, the black– when African slaves were being over here and whatnot, they were– they had to get the label that was the complete opposite of what master, or superiority would be, which would be white. So Europeans were able to call themselves white, and then they were like, what's the opposite? An absolute slave, that isn't a human being, which would be black. And now everybody else’s relationship with labor, throughout history, they have come in during a time where it was like, you know what, what’s their relationship to black people, in terms of how much do we see them as a human, and their relationship to labor, how much we want them on the labor market. And it happened with Native Americans, as red and then you have the um, Asian American– at that time it was actually the Chinese, that they were [clears throat] exploiting the most during the Opium Wars and stuff like that [laughs], if you know any of that history. And then of course, they were like, the yellow, and then of course, they also made camps for Japanese people, et cetera, and Japanese immigrants that were coming over, and a lot of the workers that were coming over, especially from these Eastern Asian countries, were, um, always like, fought against, the way they fight against today, our brown brothers in [laughs] the Latinx community, you feel what I’m saying. Constantly saying, “Oh, this is Mexican da da da,” they had all those arguments for everybody that came over here, besides them [laughs]. Besides them, you feel what I’m saying.
And my peoples is Native American, like I always feel different when I talk about um, um, um, like white Americans, or “Americans” or, you feel what I’m saying, what it means to have a connection to this land. ‘Cause I don’t never feel like an immigrant, ever. Like, even as the part of me that’s been brought over here on a boat, you feel what I’m sayin’, like I understand that aspect of my ancestors, but I also be like, nigga, this is [hits hand on table for emphasis] my land. This is really where I'm from. Like, I’m from here. I’m not– This city– Like, I’m not saying that because I grew up here, my ancestor’s bloodline is from here, like, they cultivated these lands and cities. But anyway, um, so all of it, he radicalized everybody in the class pretty much, you know what I mean, he had us writing these long ass uh, essays and whatnot. And he was also, he’s also– so his base is in existential philosophy, uh, Africana studies and existential philosophy. So we’re reading uh, Gordon Lewis, Franz Fanon, Charles Mills, et cetera, you feel what I’m saying. And like, through this historical learning and whatnot, but only to see, like, how this colonization and stratification of races has been like, copied or um, reflected or done again in other areas, you feel me? So now we’re getting to see how, like, France colonized the Caribbean islands, and the UK, and Spain, et cetera. So like, once I left that classroom, I just felt like, really– Um, I felt motivated to like, really build on my literature, so that just pushed me completely into like, philosophy and political um, studies and whatnot. And like, political science I guess, you could call it.
And like, besides school, I was constantly doing that, so this is what I became really known for, known for in prison, in terms of like, the college community, and like the professors that was coming from, like, Princeton to teach the classes, and the instructors from Princeton. So we had this class, right [laughs], it was a philosophy class. And in the class, the professor, he was a guest from Oxford, yeah, he was a guest from Oxford. He was like this uh, world-renowned philosopher, professor, whatever the case may be. I don’t even know his name, you know what I mean, I just know it was a white guy from England [laughs]. So he came over, he came to the classroom. So this was a um, this was a Greek philosophy class, so I knew what I was getting into already. Um, side note– all the Africana and African history and whatnot that I learned was like, world-wide so like, my knowledge of Greek history and whatever the case, has been influenced by that, and like, how minute and brand new their history is, and how much it’s exaggerated now, in today’s histories, is so much different than most peoples. So like, I feel disrespected, like, by somebody when they say like, yeah, that was like ancient history, like Greeks or something [laughs]. I’m like, [laughs], young child, Greeks are just as new as you are, that’s like an American, that’s not that long ago. They were not here the rest of the time humans were around, that’s not the only way society was based. But anyway.
So he comes in, and says, “The three greatest men who ever lived–” [Laughs] Already a mistake for me, already a mistake, don’t ever walk into class and say the three greatest men. The fuck is you talking about. Men is the only greatest people that lived? Are you serious? That don’t even make sense. So he walks in, “The three greatest men that ever lived,” –second mistake, “Uh, Julius Cesar, um, um, Alexander the Great and um, and Aristotle.” He’s like, “I’ll start with Aristotle–” did he start with Aristotle? Yeah, because it was Greek philosophy class, yeah. So he was like, “Well, and for today since I'm here for philosophy reasons, I'll explain to you Aristotle is great, and the reasons why he’s great. He is essentially the founder of science and scientific methodology da da da.” I was like– [Laughs] So my boy next to me, he already know what I was hitting for, because– so first of all, I didn’t paint the picture for you. So this is a classroom, but half of us are Princeton students, so half of the students are from home, from the free– you know, not incarcerated world, Princeton students in the classroom with us. And the other half was like, people, students who were inside, who were still currently incarcerated. So it was like, one of those, like, experimental type classes, they like to do. Um, anyway–
This was through NJ Step?
Yeah, exactly, this was through NJ Step. So they came in and whatever the case may be. So they’re in there. So I raise my hand, and my boy knows what I’m about to do, and he’s like, “Yo, get him, bro, he just wiled out,” and I’m like, “I got him, I got him, I got him.” And I don't know even what else he hears after that, he says something for another two minutes, I don’t hear any of that, my hand is just up, and I’m just waiting for him to politely say, “Oh yes, do you have a question?” Or something like that, I was waiting. And he did it, he did exactly what I wanted him to do. He was like, “You had your hand up for a while. You had a question?” And I was like, “No, actually, I had a comment, I wanted to say that you were wrong.” [Laughs] He was like, what? And my boy started laughing, so my other boy across the room was like, “Ooh.” So he was like, “Uh oh, he about to get you.” And they all call me puta, so he was like, “He’s about to get it, you puta.” I’m like, chill, chill. I’m like, “Sir, but you said um, [laughs]. First of all you said that the three greatest men that ever lived, were these three European men that had little effects on history as far as I’m concerned. And second, you said Aristotle invented scientist methodology and thought.” I’m like, “Are you unaware of the history of Greek philosophers and their relations to North Africa, and after that, to the Roman Empire, and their relations to the Islamic empire? And–” You feel that I’m saying? “Do you not know why it was called the Dark Ages, which is why Europe had lost its history?” Yo, I’m going HAM on him, so anyway. I’m, like, talking to him about all of this stuff. So he is like, “Well, people like to think that some Greek philosophers would go to North Africa and go to these Egyptian schools, or uh, you know what I mean, uh, um.” They weren’t called Egyptians then, that’s a um, derogatory term actually, to um, to the people as that time came around. It was, uh, “Egypt” actually is similar to a word um, like America, like a melting pot type of thing. And then also, um, Egyptians were called that because it came from a Greek word, aígyptos, because it meant people of the sun, sunburnt face, that type of thing. Anyway, it was Kemet, so I’m like, “Well, first of all, the Kemetic university, and the West African university, like Timbuktu.”
I’m like, I’m like, in a courtroom, “But before I even go to all of that, it’s not people like to think– it’s factual evidence.” I’m like, “Herodotus, your father of history, said that it was in North Africa,” I’m like, “I can show you in the passages, and also, pick up are a couple books that you can read from people who did the hard research, that actually know.” [Laughs]. So the people, the instructors who invited him in was also in the class, they’re sitting there, like “Ohhhh.” They didn’t know I was going to go HAM on him. So now, every little thing he says, I’m on top of it. I’m on top of every little thing he say. Every time he says, like, um, so, yeah, so Plato's Republic, so we’re going over Plato’s Republic, and what that society would look like. And they’re like, yeah, that actually makes, like, perfect sense. And I’m like, “Oh, it makes perfect sense that we should stratify society based on what motivates you to live? So if you like to work with your hands, you should be a bronze, you should be less worthy than everybody else, in terms of making decisions about the society. If you love knowledge, and you’re a philosopher, you’re a gold citizen, so you should be able– ‘cause only gold citizens can have children, and they have the schools, and they make decisions, like, politically. The tradesman and the soldiers, all get– they’re silver. So they are motivated by the things they do out of their pride and, like, their values. And then bronze is based on like, things that they actually make, they get pride in actually doing things, like farming, stuff like that. So like, slaves basically. So I’m like, woah, no, this doesn't make sense at all. Like, no. Why are we trying to act like you have the authority to say what makes sense.
So um, after I was breaking that down, I started taking other classes, and that was my new thing, and I wasn't letting these professors live, because I felt like they was doing us a disservice, by coming in there, saying that, “Oh, I care about people who are incarcerated, let me teach inside of a prison.” But you fucking coming in teaching us the same propaganda bullshit idealogy that got us here in the first place. Like, by telling us that um, um, you’re giving us these numbers about our cities and our communities, and what’s happening to us, and what’s going on, but then at the end of the day, be like, “If you just pull your boot straps up, and do what you need to do, and go forward, you guys will make it. Like, I promise you’ll make it.”
And then you have the officers who are in there during this time– so this is where I got into my activist work, so I started organizing. So I was already facilitating a lot of meetings with uh, the professors that we were training. All the students on the student advisory board, that was our job, to facilitate these meetings and groups, but I started taking certain things a little further. Like, I wanted to make a newspaper, but I wanted to make a newspaper like, you feel what I’m saying, where we can like, talk about something a little bit edgy, that I was like, [unclear]. So everybody killed my shit. As soon as I tried to bring it up, it was like, nah, you’re never going to get that done, they’re going to think you’re just passing around gang messages da da da da da da. So I was like, alright fuck it, I’ll make an underground newsletter. So I made an underground newsletter [laughs], and I started passing that around through the college community.
Then I made a um, I finally said, look, what if we put out something like, announcements for the new semester, or whatever. And I told the director of the program, like, we’ll make it into the letter– like, the semester’s letter or something, but it’ll be a newsletter, you feel what I’m saying, and then I’ll put all the articles that I wanted from people. And they were like, alright. So I made a newsletter in there, [laughs], improved that motherfucker. And that was basically about um, so we had a section where we talked about current events, a section about like, entrepreneurship or something. That draws people’s attention usually, and then um, we had sections about like, “This was my professor, what could he do better,” something like that, you feel what I’m saying? It just kinda critiqued the professor’s style, and new ways you can work, doing that. And then we had another section with what you can do with your education, afterwards. Because that was important.
So once I did that, um, the officers used to always discourage us from going to school. Like, before we go to class, we had to get patted down or whatever. And then they was all the time, and I would always get this short blonde woman– there’s always a short blonde officer or something like that, who was always trying to impress the douchebag officer pigs that she’s around. ‘Cause most of the time, the majority of them are white. So they’re all together, and they’re all trying to impress each other, for no apparent reason. But they’re all trying to do that at our expense. So we come through and have a book or something like that, and they would fucking slap it down or something, a pencil would fall, they’d kick the pencil and then fucking, like, pat us down. And you can’t move. So it’s not like when they slap something down, you can be like, oh shit, and try to like, go down and get it, ‘cause then they think that’s resisting, and they beat the shit out of you, kick your teeth out, fully within their rights. You know what I mean. You’d be in the wrong completely, in that situation.
So you have to stand there still, while they do whatever they want, kick your pencil and shit like that, you feel that I’m saying. You can’t even huff or puff too hard, ‘cause again, that’s moving. You feel what I’m saying, so you just have to sit there while they do all the dumb shit, and then you gotta quietly pick it up and keep moving or they going to put you on the wall, and be like, “What the fuck’d you say?” And put you up against the wall like this, while everyone is trying to see you, and then see what's going on. But they make you give them you back, so you can't face humanity, which is one of the tactics they use in there, all the time. They make everyone face the wall when somebody walks by. So anyway– if, like, you’re in trouble. So anyway, um, they were like, doing that shit, and they weren’t letting us get showers, because our jobs were usually right before classes start, and right after classes were finished was usually time for lock in. So you only had like, thirty minutes. So they could theoretically, gave us those thirty minutes to hurry up, get in the shower, so we could get out of there, and get our hot water or whatever. But they weren’t doing that at all, and in fact, what they were doing was intentionally locking us in, soon as we come back from school. And then like, letting whoever they wanted to let out run the tier, and then ignore us completely. So we weren’t getting showers or food the nights we was going to school. Which would discourage you from going to school now. ‘Cause now you’re like, “I’m not fucking going to school, I can't even eat and shower at night.” So they were doing little attacks like that. They were targeting our rooms, in terms of doing raids, ripping up our essays and shit like that. The whole nine yards, not allowing us to have pencils and pens. Even though that wasn’t a big deal, once college because like, more and more like, a thing in prison, like they were starting to see more people get into it, then they started cracking down on pens and pencils. So you only can have these golf pencils. Or these little flexi-pens and shit, like “anti-shank pens.” Like, [laughs] no one’s ever been shanked by a pen, anti-shank pen. It’s crazy.
So, anyway. I started organizing the tier, like us, to get away from that. During that time, that’s when we were like, alright, well, we going to refuse– we’re doing a mass movement, we refuse to work or whatever, and shut the prison down, from our little arm that we could do it from, and then that’d just give us some leverage, and then they’ll be like, alright we’ll work with you, and then we can talk to an administrator, stuff like that. Um. Afterwards– this is when uh, Trayvon Martin was killed around this time, um, this is when, you know what I mean, all the Black Lives Matter started, whatever. So while this is happening, we were in prison. So while this was happening, we wasn’t feeling it the same way like, if you was home, you felt it. Because again, we was in prison, we only kind of saw it on TV, and we were just like, damn, that shit is crazy. But the officers, who were still white racist pigs, were still getting amped, with whatever they were dealing with in their life, with that situation, and then they was also bringing it in here. So they already knew it was time for them to clump up, and get together, so they adopted like, this super gang mentality, and beating on us. So what they would– It seemed like it was a game. And I can't imagine it was anything more than that to them. Because it started to be– if they picked you out of the line up, so when we walk back from mess, we have to– they basically are like, standing adjacent to the wall, and we walk in between them and the wall, like this. And they would be standing there with their little baton and their mace and whatever, and their whole job is to monitor us as we go back to the tier, and randomly they would call some of us to the side, and pat us down, or whatever the case may be. So they started doing though, they’d pat us down, and the last person they pat, they would make up some reason to like, beat him up or something. And the next thing you know, a code would be called, and it’d be like, what the fuck just happened. And like, they just beat up Such-and-such, they took him to D-shop, which would be like a certain section where there’s no cameras. And they’d beat him up and assault him, take him to the nurse, let the nurse check him out. Now he’s handcuffed now, and he got assaulted, and they say they assaulted him ‘cause he was resisting. They got him to the nurse, he’s still handcuffed, the same officers that say he was resisting, that assaulted him, is having him there with the nurse. So the nurse looks over his wounds, patches him up a little bit, and then when they get to the steps, they kick him down the stairs handcuffed, you feel what I’m saying. So like, they are doing this to multiple people.
So um, this was in the paper too, one of my bros was in prison for killing a cop. And one of the cops like, found out, and was like, “You better fucking check in, nigger.” Something like that, he whispered in his ear. He turned around, hit him, boom, broke his face, completely crushed his face. He hit him with the perfect angle, it must have been such a beautiful [laughs] connection, like a sound that was made in that guys face. Like that was something he was meant to have. He turned around hit him one time, like boom, and literally shattered the bone structure in his face. He had to quit, retire early. That was that same year, and this was actually recent. That was in the paper and everything, back in two thousand like, sixteen, fifteenish. But anyway, these officers were starting to do this to us, and we didn't realize that it was like, on the heels of the Black Lives Matter movement, and then Blue Lives Matter movement, or All Lives Matter movement. We didn't even know about that, ‘cause we didn’t see that shit on the TV like that.
Anyway, so now what we started doing was, alright, this what we doing to do– nobody leave nobody behind type of thing. Like when we walking back, if they pull us over, we sit there and wait for them to be like, alright, you good, and then we go back. So we started doing that, so the officers started getting scared of us. So now, there started to be this tension, that was just crazy. Where it was like– they’d be like, what’re you guys doing, you have to keep fucking walking. We’d be like, we’re not walking nowhere until y’all finish patting him down, send him back, ‘cause y’all beating up on us. So now it was a thing, where there would just be quiet tension, they would pat us down, everybody would just stop moving and wait until the person gets patted down. Then we’ll go back. So we were dealing with that. The student advisory board was in every other prison, so when it came to South Wood, they had, like, organized the prison, their comrades on the tier, to refuse work and mess and what not, because the officers wasn't giving them showers, on purpose. So like, the organizing was going on like, all around, you feel what I’m saying. So it broke up the [laughs] student advisory board, so then it was banned, like, no more student advisory board, none of that shit. Regular for the establishment to react in that way. Um, but yeah. And after that my whole thoughts then were, I have to go home and just basically, avoid poverty. You feel me, like that was I had came out for, and what I had came out of, um.
There was like, one other time where in there, in terms of organizing. So the LGBT community, the LGBTQ community started to get like, very heavy in prison, it was changing. It wasn’t like it used to be, like it wasn’t like, everybody was super homophobic. Like everything was like, man, you’re a fag this, you’re a fag that. Or like, suck my dick was like, that’s why I was so offensive. ‘Cause that’s like, you offered me to do something homosexual, so now I’m offended, as much as I possible can be, that was like, an instant reason to fight. You exchange blows on sight, that’s like the one– that’s the magic words, right there. But like, that started to change, and like, nobody– people that was in prison as long as I was, didn’t understand why it was changing. ‘Cause now like, kids would come in that’s locked up, and they’d be nineteen or something, they’d see their boy, and they’d be like, yo what’s good, bro, yo suck my dick. Like, what? [Laughs] So then everybody– like, older people like– and for me, it’d be a group, like I no longer was like somebody that was whatever my age was. ‘Cause now, I was an old head, because I’d been in prison so long.
So now, it’s like, even though I’m fucking twenty-four, twenty-five, I’m thirty-five, thirty-six, like just like the rest of the people that’s that age. So that like, was um, that was changing. So then more people, especially from my family, I got like, one of those families that got more people that are queer [laughs], than everybody else’s family. So now everybody that coming in from my family is queer, and now I keep seeing my cousins, and I’m like, oh man. And I’m like, yo cuz, what’s good? And then like, it would always end up the same, they give them a tier, and then they be like, yo, is that your cousin, yo he a punk, your cousin is punk as shit, that punk is your cousin or whatever. And I’d be like, yeah bro, don’t, leave him alone, don’t do it to yourself, ‘cause they will beat whoever up, that calls them a fag or some shit like that. Like, my one cousin, he’ll always like, he’ll say something funny as hell [laughs], I’m not even gonna say it. But anyway, he um– that started happening more, but because it was such an influx, just like with Crips, the same thing happened with Crips, it was actually kind of funny how this worked. But there was no Crips at this prison I was in, then everybody started to be Crip in New Jersey, which was regular, because that’s how Bloods came to existence. There was so many Crips, they start oppressing people, and they had a resistance, which was the Bloods. Same thing happened in Jersey, but flip-flopped. The Bloods was so– there was so many of them they started oppressing it, and you’re from Newark, so you know, ‘cause that was like the main spot, so many Bloods, oppressing people. And then the Crips just jumped out of nowhere, and then like, expanded. So because there was so many of them, the administration was trying to figure out how to integrate them in the youth prisons, without there being huge-ass riots and stabbings, and shit. So what they ended up doing is, they just threw a bunch of them on a tier, and now it’s like, like if it’s eleven of ‘em on a tier, it’s fifty people on a tier. You throw in like twelve at a time, you figure only like sixteen of us, or twenty-five of us are solid Bloods, where we’re like, alright like, everything is everything– I wasn’t Blood at the time, when this started happening. So most of the people who are Crips also was like, Muslim, so I was always having to be on the side of Crips [laughs], ‘cause like, that was a thing. That was where they’d hide. Like, they’d just be Muslim, and never tell nobody they was Crip. And once they start Crips in all the tiers, then everybody was like, alright we gotta live with them, and then it was just, if you’re from my hood anyway, or if I fuck with you anyway, like, I fuck with you anyway. It just was, fuck the gang shit, if you’re from where I’m from, I don’t give a fuck what you is, it is what it is. So now it’s Camden versus Newark versus Patterson versus Jersey City, you feel me. Asbury. So now everything is based on that.
So now, it was happening with people who is queer that was coming in. So now it’s like, well, that’s my cousin, or he from my hood, so I don’t give a fuck what y’all talking about anyway. Like I don’t care. He ain’t fucking with none of y’all niggas, so it is what it is, type of thing. So now like, that happened to my tier, but my tier was one of the only tiers that was like, still too many Bloods, [laughs]. I hate to blame just them, but that’s the truth though. There’s nothing else they shared in common, but they all were Bloods, like it was just too many Bloods. And when they came on my tier, like first my tier had the Crip influx. So most of the people that Crip usually be from my hood, too, like a lot of people from Camden Crip. So um, they would come in, so everybody be from my hood, so they would come in, they’d be by me. So I had that relationship. Then they started bringing in the queer– and I remember um, it just was like, when we first had this tier, they had moved us all around. When they first had us on this new tier, we had like, basically helped create the tier, because we had so much time, and we was talking to the LT, like yo, look, y’all should do it like this, put everybody that work here, here, and then here, you know what I mean? And basically we made our own tier. So we had a bomb tier, but then they sent up somebody from my hood [laughs]. So look, they sent him to my tier, right? So once he gets to the tier, I tell my little brother, soon as I see him walk by, ‘cause I seen him switch by, and I was like, oh man. I’m like, this shit is about to get real on this tier, I’m like, fuck that. So I call my little brother, I’m like, look bro, this is not gonna be one of those tiers where we’re making niggas check in, or whatever the case may be. ‘Cause that’s what they do. I’m like, fuck that. This is our tier bro, anybody do anything, we’re fucking niggas up. And he from our hood, I’m like fuck that. He was like, alright, you already knew. He called me puti, and my brother’s like, a weirdo, ‘cause he, now he got more weight on him, so he’s hella muscular, right, and he’s got a crazy look in his eyes, and he always makes– his voice is always like super high pitched. So he’s like [high pitched voice], “Don’t worry about it, puti.” [Laughs] So then me and him um, basically held down the tier um, as far as that goes, you know what I mean. So that was like, the last thing I got into that was like, alright, someone has to die, or no one’s checking in. We not having no one checking in, no punks checking in. I don’t care if he say he gay, I don’t give a fuck what he say, no body checking in on that. So then that just expanded, and that like, brought me to the streets.
When I was in the halfway house, I started uh, I got sent back, but I started like a couple poetry programs, that they never had, for like, talent show performances or whatever. For people to express themselves. The halfway house is a whole ‘nother story of exploitation [laughs]. I was in Kintock, Newark, I was in the [unclear] section, so I’m sure you know how exploitative that strip is. And um, then I just um, and yeah. I took that work that I was doing within prison, and used all those same techniques, and everything I learned, just coming out. Like I thought I was gonna be a physicist for the longest– like, I always wanted to be a capitalist, um, just because I felt like that was the only thing that was going to liberate me from poverty, you know what I mean. But like, as I started to get closer to home, I started to pick up more literature from black feminists, especially socialists, and that started to influence me heavily. Because it was like, it was things that I felt like I’d been looking for, this whole time, that I wasn’t finding until I found it. You know what I mean? Like I was already like a Marxist, like pretty staunchly, by the time I was twenty-three. Like I already was like, this is definitely the wave, and then I just kinda started to build on top of that. And um– but once I was on my way home for the most part, let me make sure I go to this college campus, I’m going to utilize these things as much as possible. But [laughs] it sucks when you don't have money, and that is the most common experience I have, when it goes– when it comes to certain events in my life happening, and me having to adjust to them.
So in the halfway house, for instance– when you in prison, they give you three meals. It’s the state, the state takes care of you, they give you your clothes, they give everything you pretty much need. They give you your little cosmetics, they’re all cheap, processed, BS cosmetics, but it’s like, a little deodorant that big, I’m not exaggerating, it’s that big. It smells like glue, it’s not scented, it doesn't work whatsoever [laughs], there’s no reason for them to make it, it’s a waste of money. It’s like, they are paying for nothing but someone said, this is deodorant. And um, a little hotel bar of soap that breaks after you like, squeeze too hard. So when you get to the halfway house, though, they don't give you any of that [laughs]. Because the premise is, now that you’re halfway out, you can get things sent in to you, like cosmetics, um. You no longer have to wear the clothes, the khaki clothing, they actually take those clothes away from you. And they say, like, you gotta wear like, certain color shirt– not a certain color, it just gotta be a shirt of a color, and then you can wear whatever. However, if you don't have money, you have to wear a white shirt that you have in prison, whatever white shirt from prison, the only inmate clothes you have, and your khaki pants. You also can't wear just a white shirt, usually when you go to eat at a halfway house. I have no idea why you can’t wear a white shirt to go to eat in a halfway house, but for some reason, that’s heavily taboo, you’re not allowed to wear a white shirt. So you may not eat, because you can’t afford, or your family doesn't support you, to give you a shirt other than white. And that literally is a policy that is in place in many halfway houses, if not all of them. In New Jersey. It, like, makes no sense. So if you can't afford a shirt, then you can't eat. And it's not like one of those things in the halfway house, where they’re like, alright you can come eat. No, halfway houses are really– they make a lot of their money from the turnover on the beds– on the heads they support coming in at the end– at the beginning of the month, or whatever their fiscal periods are.
So if you come into a halfway house– say I came into a halfway house last– the first time I was in a halfway house, I came, I think, it was the beginning of the year. I think it was late 2016. Yeah, I came in late 2016, I came in September 28th. That’s when I entered the halfway house. So, again, my family wasn’t supporting me yet. They had just had got more contact with me, ‘cause I had just graduated with my Associates in prison. And that was like a big thing, you know what I mean? So my family members came out, and then they realized, like oh shit, you was in here this whole time reading books. Like we ain’t know you was doing that. And I did, like, a spoken word performance, and that shit was crazy, like it was lit. It was one of my favorite days type of thing. Um. So anyway, I was in contact with my family but I wasn’t really in contact with them at all, in terms of holding me down, except for my grandmother, my maternal grandmother. So while I'm doing this in a halfway house, I get there and I realize they have these crazy ass rules. And it’s like, um, they’re trying to break you, and they also like, make money when you come in. And I'm in there from September, and they already got me marked down. And I last until October before I start figuring out a way to hustle. So I start hustling. And I hustle until around January, February– January. Yeah, January or February, when um, I had put together a talent show, I was on my way about to come out, to start working and everything else, and someone like, told on me, and then one night– oh it was the day before I was about to actually go into the streets. I was like, doing hella squats, and like, working out super crazy, ‘cause I was trying to come out pumped, I was OD– I will never forget this, I was OD’ing those two days. I did like, hella full body workouts, and then I was stupid with the squats, I was crazy. Hella lunges, hella jump squats, I do all like plyometrics and explosive workouts. So I do those, and like, calisthenics, I'm, like, way too sore. So my legs lock up on me, like, in the night time, and I had slept long as hell, ‘cause I was still anxious. So when I finally started walking, it was night, and when I was turning the corner, my legs would be so sore, I almost, like, limped to side. So one of those days, the counselor came up to me, and she was like, “Hopkins, you high? You drunk?” I’m like, “Nah.” And she’s like, “You doin’ something.” I’m like, “Nah, I’m good.”
Boom. Sent me back to prison. So, they already got my head though, for that day. So what they do is, they make these rules so strict, so when you come in there, they’ve got a very good reason to send you back. And they make you sign a contract when you come in, so you have to abide to all they petty rules. One of the places, in Kearney, your bed is like this, adjacent to this window– you can’t look out the window! [Laughs] You can’t look out the window. That’s a real rule. If you get caught looking out the window, they will send you back to prison. Like, I’m not, that’s not exaggeration or nothing. If you get caught looking out the window, especially like, say if somebody likes you, if they catch you three times, they write you up, it’s called a demerit, they write you three demerits for looking out the window, you will go back to prison. For looking out a window. Next to your bed. And there’s a window, mind you, in every single room. And the– not like the window faces anything but a parking lot, a county jail, and a prison yard. Ain’t nothing to look at, you feel what I’m saying? You still will be punished, like, most severe way. You’ll go back to prison. Same thing if you’re like, talking in a line, or something like that. Or not having your shirt tucked in, you know what I mean, you get these little demerits, they call it, it’s a demerit system. And then they give you merits, but like, they barely give you merits. They barely give you the rewards, after you accumulate a certain number of merits. Which is supposed to be like, a free pizza day or something, you feel me? So they set up all these little strict policies that they know you’re going to have trouble with, because they know, one– you’re coming into a new situation, where you’re finally getting some type of freedom, you’re finally meeting and seeing people you haven't seen in years. You finally feel like a human being, you wear clothes, and stuff like that. And they want you to be like these, like, I don’t know how to say it other than like, supreme house nigga. You just gotta, like, shut up, don’t say anything, do everything we say. Then they brainwash you while you’re doing it, so you can't even like, raise questions that are valid, in the discussions that they make you participate in, that will be about your behavioral flaws. Like your behavioral, mental flaws, and thinking errors. They use a program called rational emotive behavior therapy. So they constantly are using this back and forth to judge, you feel what I’m saying, yeah. And they make money off all the beds when you come in.
So they really are just setting you up.
Exactly. Exactly. Yup. Once I like, once I became a number on that bed, and I came back to the halfway house, I was fortunate enough where I was able to come back just in time to start the semester while I was in the halfway house, finish my time in December, and then come home again to um, face what, how am I gonna pay bills, how am I gonna do this, how am I gonna do that? It's not like the Mountainview program, or the program I’m in, like, that’s their job. Their job is to help you make that connection with higher education, you know what I mean. Um, and then they help you with like, supplemental jobs, like a work-study or whatever the case may be. But they don’t help you with anything else. So like, with housing and everything else. The housing, they can assist you with, if the opportunity is available. So like, if they have a house like they have here, and there’s a room open, and the opportunity is there, they can let you go in there. But if not, like, you know what I mean. They can’t help but five people at a time. Uh, and then they have– then you’re out here, and you constantly gotta face that. So when I first came out, first of all, I didn't get to pick all my classes. I only got to pick one of them. I didn’t get to pick it, I got to allude to it by saying I wanted to be– wanted to go to business school. So the director, or whoever it was, my counselor for the Mountainview program was like, alright I think he’ll like this, this is an easy class, and then we’ll put him in here. It was like creative writing, Japanese history, [laughs]. And um, the creative writing was poetry. And the class that I wanted them to give me was Microeconomics. So I'm like, okay. I had studied finance my last two years before coming home, so I was like, this is all going to be easy. But because I was also in a halfway house traveling from Elizabeth– I mean, not Elizabeth. Yeah, from Elizabeth to New Brunswick, from Elizabeth, taking the 24 to Newark, ‘cause I was coming back and forth from the South Ward, to Elizabeth train station, then to New Brunswick. Then on top of that, you feel me, like, no computer access. Finally came home, I had to work. So my job was at the Jersey Garden Mall, so I’m coming from the Jersey Garden Mall, back down, in time for class. Basically, long story short– I hated my classes, but I did the work, but the exam times, and times for me to drop certain things off, was irregular for my work schedule, and that means I missed– so I missed my exams, one of my papers I just ended up not doing. And then I missed the time to drop off my final portfolio, for my poetry class. [Laughs] So I failed all my classes. So I failed my classes, mad as hell, and you know what I mean, I’ve been having to recover from that since. And then I was like, alright, well that means I can't work. So, it makes no sense for me to have a job, and go to school right? Because I’m traveling so much, and I’m working, and I’m not able to do everything. So I quit my job but then, I'm like, fucking, really starving, you know what I mean. Like really genuinely like, damn, this is why I started selling drugs when I was younger. Because I had this out of my control, this is why I hated this feeling and I still have obligations to go to school and do this or do this, but I don’t have the means to take care of myself. So that, like, pushed me all the way to a lot of organizing and activist work, and it just so happens that I got a paid internship after that, and then I got a job, you feel what I’m saying, doing the same thing after that, and that shit just carried over. I held down my work-study, and my work-study like, didn’t even bump the pay up until my student organization fought for a higher wage. And we still fighting, we fighting for fifteen. Um, but we got– but they rolled out eleven dollars. They gave us eleven dollars, because they were threatened by an action we were going to have at one of their board of trustee meetings. So we had threatened the night before, like, we’ll be there. And they was like, alright guess what, sent out an email saying, eleven dollars an hour for all workers on campus. That's how simple it was, you feel me, and now they are not giving the fifteen they’re crazy, thinking we’re gonna stop at that. But you feel me, like those were just the circumstances and like, even through all the education, and through all the experiences, et cetera, they still mean almost nothing um, in terms of, they don't translate economically, so that still puts not just me, like I know plenty of other people who are in the same predicament, you feel what I’m saying [laughs]. Excellent education, you feel what I’m saying, between Ivy League and non Ivy League. They just have all the education they need, all the vocational training they could possibly need, and they still have to deal with housing, employment, job security– like that’s like, the basis of what I fight on, that’s where I am today. [Laughs] You know what I mean? Damn, that was long as hell.
Is the solution in organizing?
Yes [laughs]. I mean, it’s hard for me to say this without sounding like a Panther cadre, but like, [laughs] like, that is the only solution, organizing. See, this is the thing. First and foremost, there is no solution under a capitalist system. If someone were to assume there was, then they would be right. There is no solution in the oppression that we face, especially intersectionalities, and intersectional oppression that we face, under capitalism. You can not think that we can solve any of those issues under capitalism, because it feeds on those– on those divisions of labor, gender, class, um, race et cetera, et cetera. But in capitalism, um, there is obviously that dialectical relationship that Marx always was talking about, but they didn’t have a word for yet. And it’s that conflict between the capitalists and the proletariat, or in today's time, just the employer and employee, it’s simple as that. And the only power that the worker have, or that the employee has, is the worker power. Like that’s the only power that the masses has. Is– are the working power. It’s only our connection to labor, um, that’s our strongest connection to power. Um, coincidentally, it’s the strongest power, you know what I mean. It’s the greatest power to have. Organizing labor and organizing communities and organizing people for social justice or for a new society is the only solution out of this society and this system. And in a new society, you feel what I’m saying, we can collectively and democratically, like truly democratically determine the solutions that we need in terms of like, how we deal with environmental crisis, how we deal with economic crisis, in terms of like um, health– oh, I’m sorry, um, hunger crisis and things of that nature. Hunger relief, and everything else. Like, we have enough resources, you know what I mean. The solution would be for us to sit the fuck down, erase all the shit that we thought was right, when it comes to money and monetary units, and turn it back to a point where we have a society where we all put our labor in that we need to. And it’s not crazy to think about. People will do what they need to do so the world functions. And we can only get to that society through organization.
I personally, am a part of the International Socialist Organization– that’s what we like, do. Our whole goal is, we are a combative organization, as well as, um, Marxist Leninist group. So we believe in holding discussions, and having analysis of society and class, and then applying our grassroots knowledge and skills, to build an organization that is truly revolutionary, that will like, be the true vanguard of the worker’s liberation, or the worker’s revolution. And that is the revolution for everybody, you know what I mean, that’s not [clears throat]. ‘Cause you know, nowadays, they teach political science so poorly now, like [laughs], kids don’t even know, you know what I mean, the basis of fundamental arguments. And that’s for everybody, everybody thinks, um, you know what I mean, when you have a revolution that you want the same way things are now, but you just want everybody to make the same or some dumb shit like that. I don’t know what they’re thinking, but all I’m trying to say is like, I don’t give a fuck about the titles we hold, gender wise, race wise, [laughs], all this nationality shit, fuck that shit. I’m ready for the human race to be a human society that’s functioning, um, for a better society constantly. Yeah, so that’s the only solution I see [laughs]. And will the solution have violence in it? Probably, most likely. Because as we know, or as we can see, or as we have seen, historically, um, anytime you threaten the property of the ruling class, they will react. And they will resist, most likely violently, through this new class of people they made, which are called police officers [laughs]. Because their whole existence is based on protecting the private property– or protecting the property of the ruling class. They are the only working class class, that is outside of the proletariat’s position. Um, they’re the only class that historically hasn't stood by our sides, in terms of proletariat. Even military officers have protested and resisted, um, the government, and have done things to show that they were not necessarily puppets. The police officers have never done that, and I don’t think they will. Because their existence is predicated on maintaining that, the status quo. So again, it would be violent, as we know, during protests, even when we ask for affordable healthcare and housing, and not to murder us in the community [laughs]. They have no issue pulling out all the military weapons the government gives them. The government treats them better than people in the military. I mean, seriously, like, police officers you know, in terms of their budgets and like– it’s just ridiculous. But that's the solution– we’re going to have to organize and work towards something where everybody is educated about socialism, and social revolution. And then we work forward. But it’s all out of love, we just see it through justice [laughs]. You know what I mean?
Wow [laughs]. You really took us on a whole trip there.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
I really, really appreciate you sharing.
That’s the best part about stories. They’re only good when you share them. Seriously.