Maya Wahrman is a case manager and school impact coordinator for Interfaith RISE. Her faith and her experience of being an Israeli-American has helped foster her passion for her work.

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TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Ashley Teague

Conducted Remotely

February 10, 2021

Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn

[00:00:00]

Questions? I feel like I’m just kinda ready to go. Like, I’m fine with that. 

No, ‘cause I think it’s also, you know, if any questions come up, just ask’m, ya know?

Yeah. 

Um. Okay, so we’re gonna start by– hi, my name’s Ashley Teague and the date is February 10th, uh, at the dog– I just saw the dog in the background, just now– [overlapping, inaudible]

[overlapping, inaudible] 

There’s a dog being very cute, transcriber. You should know that.

[laughs]

So, Ashley Teague, the date is February 10th, 2021. We are on Zoom, um– because– and this interview’s being conducted digitally because of, ah, there’s a worldwide pandemic outside. And I’m here with– will you tell me your name and spell it for me?

My name is Maya Wahrman. So first name is M-A-Y-A, last name W-A-H-R-M-A-N.

And what is the year of your birth?

1993. 

Beautiful. Um. And where were you born?

I was born in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Um. I’m the only person in my family, uh– my immediate family, but mostly my family, to not be born in Israel. Um. At least, for my generation. Um. My sister was born in Jerusalem, but, um, my dad’s an academic and when he was on postdoc in Michigan, um, that’s when I was born.

Mmm– Where do you, what is the sibling– like, who did you grow up with? What is your family structure?

So I have one sister. She’s almost 7 years older than me. And we’re, we’re– fairly close. Um. And it, you know. We grew up, I was a kid in her life. Kind of. As she was in middle school and high school. Um. And then she went to college and I think we became closer. She went to college only an hour away from where we were living. Um. And, ah, now she lives in Israel with her husband and their dog, and so we do a lot of dog zooms, um. But yeah, we’re, we’re pretty close. We talk a lot. So. 

And your parents, were they, are they your, your direct parents? Are there any extended family you grew up with in the house?

Um. We were very, like. Much a nuclear unit, because, um, everyone else was in Israel. And we were in Michigan, then England, mostly Indiana for my schooling. Um. So yeah, so. Those are the folks I grew up with in the house. We went to Israel, like, once a year or so to visit my family. I have a couple of first cousins. Um. Yeah. And now, so my parents, uh, divorced about ten– well, separated ten years ago and so now, we, I have a stepmother and her family. Um. And my mom and extended family and everyone’s in Israel except for me. [laughs] 

Oh, geez. And where, and so tell me your, can you, like, do, like, a rough date? I know remembering all the dates is hard, but like, roughly like, where you lived and when you moved?

Yeah!

[00:02:58]

Your timeline of–

So– 

Geography, or– 

Born in Michigan. In ‘95, we moved to England. My dad got a job at um, University of Warick? So um, we lived in Clobenshe for two years and then in Summertown which is part of Oxford for two years? I had a very posh Oxford accent. Moved to Indiana, um. And– Uh– I lost my accent in 3 months and then I did most of my schooling there. In 6th grade I lived in Jerusalem? Um. My dad was on sabbatical and there were some family things going on and also my sister was taking a gap year in Israel, so we were all in Jerusalem. We all came back– my sister went to college. I went to middle school. And then when she graduated college, she moved to Israel, and now my parents are there. It’s been this kind of slow migration back. [laughs]  

And um. And where did you do– where did you study? Where was your, like, your college? You have– Multiple degrees, right?

So– yeah, so, I came to Princeton for undergrad and I still live here, more or less. Little bit more complicated than that, but not very much so. Um. So that’s what brought me to New Jersey. And that, around the time, within those couple of years, those are my family was moving back to Israel and I thought I was going to move back, but I– Become very invested in New Jersey refugee work and, um– A, there’s a lot of parts of that story we can definitely delve into that. Um. And so, I feel very comfortable here. I’m very at home. Um. I’ve been in New Jersey on and off, but mostly on for eight years. Maybe almost nine. So. 

And what did you study in school? What’s your–

So I studied history. Uh, focusing on the modern Middle East. Um, I loved it. I love history. Um. I also, I did a– They call them certificates but basically minor in Near Eastern studies. Um. So that included my Arabic training and then in creative writing and poetry. So I wrote a poetry piece that’s, my senior year. And I was very, very engaged in poetry then. Um. Hoping that spark will come back maybe after I finish graduate school now. [laughs]

Um, and tell me what is your– what, what’s the organization you work for and what’s your title and job there?

So I work for Interfaith RISE. We are a refugee resettlement organization. Um. I am a case manager and school impact coordinator. So case manager is for new and existing families and individuals, refugees and those who’ve won asylum. We help them get settled here and navigate medical appointments, social services, other things. I don’t do, like, it’s more kind of characterized by what I don’t work on, which is, um, English language and employment. Um. But I also help all our school age kids with whatever school issues they might have? So. Um. Ah.

[00:06:06]

Helping enroll in school, get tutors, if they need special service plans. Liaise with schools, attend teacher parent conferences. And then try to create, kind of, enriching, um, educational and social programming for all of our kids. Um. Even remotely. 

Um, so I wanna– I’m gonna ask you some about the work and the, to share some experiences and moments from the work, but before we do that, I wanna ask you a few more things about you. Why, you know. How did you get into this particular kind of work? Like, when did you know this was what you wanted to do? How did that shape for you, that, that calling? Um, or maybe, you know, maybe it’s just what you’re doing now and, and who knows where you’ll be in ten years, but–

It’s– It’s been a long time coming. It’s definitely part of– part of a calling. Um. I, what I partly explain is, you know, I– Am from Israel and the, and the US, and my interest in Middle Eastern history comes from both of those identities. Um. Because obviously being from Israel and having been invested in the history and politics of the region– Um. But I think also growing up as a kid during the Iraq War was pretty formative? Um. And not for, until I was 17, 18, 19. Like, if someone said “Iraq”, thought of Saddam Hussein and sand. [laughs] And, um. Part of my, my senior thesis was about, um, early 20th century Iraqee history. And really trying to– Look, like, at this rich history and just before, like, in between kind of the golden age and Saddam Hussein. [laughs] Like, um. And that was important to me. And, and during that whole time, I mean, since, from the beginning of my adult life, like, literally when turning 18, the Syrian crisis began. And so that’s been unfolding and morphing throughout my adult life. And so, the connection between refugee work and Middle Eastern work were, were and are very salient, but in this particular moment, um. And at the same time, I studied Spanish in high school, and– My grade– my grandparents on my mom’s side were born and raised in Argentina. So I had started studying Spanish as a way to connect to that side of my family? Um. And even though they also speak Hebrew and they live in Israel. But um, kind of family-history wise. And then Spanish is another very useful and important language for the kind of, um, refugee work you can do in the US and so. I think all those things eventually dovetailed and I just realized that, um. I love immigration and refugee work on a kind of theological level.

[00:09:03]

It’s a way that I can wake up every day and work towards the kind of community that I want to see and I want to live in.  Um. I’ve done some humanitarian work. Um. I’ve gotten to try it, I’m very fortunate. But for me, doing the work where I live? And like, in a more sustainable way with, where as with humanitarian work you’re trying to move people forward? It’s very kind of exporting and like, traveling? And, um, for– I love this moment in which, it might not be the final destination for clients, wherever they’re coming from, but it’s a moment of opportunity to try and build them into our community, make our community as inclusive as possible, which is really important to me. And I, I feel like, even when it’s hard, I always believe in what I’m doing. It’s not– that piece is not politically complicated.

Mmm– You answered so many of my questions all in one. Um. Did you– it’s okay if the answer to this is no, but did you have any individuals in your life, maybe growing up, maybe childhood heroes or role models or, um. Uh, you know, people who are influential and like, um, you know, it’s kind of mentors maybe? [pen drops]

Yeah! There’s no one person that’s like, this is the person who made sure that I– but there are people that, there’s a, there’s a good family friend of ours in Israel who, um. Worked. He’s gay and worked in an LGBTQ youth center is Tel Aviv. Um. And there was a shooting there at one point while I was in high school. And I’ve always really looked up to this person? And. Um. I took on LGBTQ  rights as my first, like, social justice cause in high school? Um. And so, like, that was definitely, like, influential. Um. I worked right after college in the Office of Religious Life at Princeton, and so, um. My friends who are chaplains and former colleagues there are– remain really important and grounding to me in how to think about this work holistically. Um. And not just kind of in a pragmatic or career trajectory way. Um. I might wanna circle back if there, I feel like I’m gonna miss someone important, um. So.

Yeah, yeah, if someone comes up let me know. Um. And you’ve, you’ve named this in a few ways, but to ask it specifically, about, you know, Interfaith RISE has the word “faith” in it. It’s grounded in the Reformed Church of Highland Park which is a Christian church. And so I’m curious how spirituality has played into, you know, you’ve mentioned it in some ways, but, you know, you’ve mentioned it in some ways but into your, your life and if anything about ending up in a, in a church setting to do this work is particularly, um, surprising to you? [laughs] 

[00:11:52]

[laughs] Quite the opposite! [laughs] Um. I’ve always been interested in interfaith work. Um. When I took a gap year before college, in Israel, um. We had this project called “Go Forth” from the, um. Biblical passage where God tells Abraham to go forth from his land. Supposed to spend three days doing something completely different. Challenging, new, surprising. And I went and I lived in a convent for three days in Haifa. Um. And I am still, like, truly close friends with the nun who was kind of my, my host [laughs] nun. Veronica. Um. She’s from Chile and we email back and forth regularly and, um, she asks about my family. Like, she’s met a lot of people in my life. Um. We have to go there because they’re cloistered. Um. You know, I can spend this whole time talking about her. So, um. Just an amazing, amazing woman. Um. And so– So, like, happy and respectful of the work I do, of my Judaism. Like, she would explain to me, like, “we’re kind of like a kibbutz! Like the nuns here, and like, you know!” Like! [laughs] She’s amazing!  And, and just like. We realized how much shared liturgy there is when you get down to it? And just really feels comfortable. So I’ve always felt, in some ways, most comfortable in interfaith spaces? Not only. In college I was pretty involved in a Reformed Jewish group. I led it. I lead kibbutz services. My guitar– um, and I love doing that, um, that’s the musical side of me.  It’s– I mostly keep it up through Jewish music now? Um. And I, I love that partly because it’s not about performance? It’s about sharing music and connection. Um. Which is the part of music that’s most important to me. Um. And I was in Muslim-Jewish dialogue in college that was really formative. I made good friends, including, um, the Muslim chaplain who then became my colleageue when I worked at the Office of Religious Life. Um. Who was one of the dearest people on the planet. Um. So I was always interested in this work. And in my family, it was always “Maya’s really like, really out there activist? And she’s also way more Jewish than any of us,” ‘cause they’re secular and so they’re like “Maya’s gonna be a rabbi, Maya’s gonna be a socialist, Maya’s gonna be a– ” you know! Now, like. Now that I’m not on the rabbi track– which is something I briefly considered though I didn’t talk about it with anyone in my family ‘cause that was too much. [laughs] Um. Now my great-aunt is convinced I’m going to become Catholic because I worked with Catholics and now I work in a church– doesn’t matter, it's not a Catholic Church, it’s like “Maya and the Catholics.” So. Whatever. [clap] It is what it is. Um. Love being in spaces where people are not afraid to show part of their personal– Faith and life in the work. Um. It feels so much more– genuine to me. And the Reformed Church was one of the first places where I really saw that modeled? Because I became connected when I worked at Princeton.

[00:15:05]

Um. With Interfaith RISE and particularly with the, uh, detention visitations. I did that regularly for almost two years. Um. And, and so that feels really right, and even now I would say, I spend less time thinking about my faith and my Jewishness? I still, I celebrate holidays, I like to attend services, I was leading Shabbat services on Zoom at the beginning of the pandemic. Um. So it is something that’s important to me. But it’s not as essentially on my brain in the way that it was a few years ago, but it, that actually feels really comfortable? And doing interfaith work is just one way of doing that, because I’m very much Jewish and I’m also very much just in interfaith work, like. That, it feels like the right sphere. And I think the Reformed Church does a really great job of making it truly interfaith. It does not feel like we are being hosted by the church, but like [laughs] by Christian benevolent, it’s not like that at all. Not with clients and not with staff.

Um, tell me a little bit about the communities that you serve.

So, currently, mostly work with folks who are resettled? To this country through the UN. So, refugees and then special immigrant visas, SIVs, who are folks from Afghanistan and Iraq who, um, served with the US military and their lives became endangered because of it. Our refugee population is from all over and it kind of changes partly with the political tide and partly with some other circumstantial tide. So we have folks from, um, East Africa, West Africa, and Central Africa. Um. And those are, within those there’s such a spectrum of population. Um. The Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Um. South Asia. Um. I blank– we have Eastern Europe, Ukraine largely. Um. We’re starting to see more Central American clients– uh, Guatemalan, El Salvador. Um– Feel like I’m missing a big swipe– but then our asylum seekers who come to us with asylum can really be from anywhere. And then some of these folks have always been shut out of education or economic opportunity and this is their first opportunity to build that kind of from scratch in the US? Others come from, um. Middle class and upper class homes. Um. Fluent English, good professions, and the jump to come to the US and build from scratch in a different way is very difficult. So. Um. It’s not always what you would expect in terms of challenges and successes. Um. And even folks who are the same religion or speak the same language might have really different experiences or might not mesh and so each family and individual is very unique and I, I love that. Um. 

[00:18:07]

And I– People are so resilient. I mean. They have just been through so much to get here. Um, advocated for themselves, you know. This is a really strong population, even with a lot of vulnerability. And so we just try to focus on that collaboration because, um. It’s the only way to do it right and to serve best. 

One thing that really struck me when I came into this was learning that, like, oh my goodness, the folks working here aren’t just working around immigration issues and issues of culture. The intersectionality of issues that, you know, a person arrives with, right, um. Gender identity, sexual orientation, trauma, disability, right? Um. Is. Can you talk a little bit about the kind of myriad of inner, intersectionalities that you, you, you have to sort of learn how to be there for?

Yeah! I mean– I mean, you kinda, like. [laughs] Said it. And it’s so important. Because for example, um. So this is– I used to work with a, from, on refugees work from the vantage point of religion at my work at Office of Religious Life, and I think it’s a really good microcosm for that intersectionality. Because almost every refugee who comes has some kind of– relationship and strong relationship with religion. But strong could be completely oppositional, c– There are so many things. So I met, um. An LGBTQ asylum seeker in detention who fled Liberia because he was the son of an emom? But has fallen very deeply in love with Christianity. And. Um. All the different ways that that can– that he might be accepted by some Christian community and not beloved by others and he still comes from a Muslim background, but that’s one kind of example. Um. Just so many ways that, um. What brought people here, the kind of persecution or hardship. Um. What sustained them? For a lot of clients, their faith does sustain them. And then what could happen forward looking. And then especially if you look into the kids generation. Um. What are the opportunities? What are differences? So. Young Muslim, single, uh, single mother from Afghanistan might, um, have really been protected by her religion in many ways and then doesn’t shed it completely but also explores what having maybe some more independence in the US can look like. Um. But not renouncing her religion– like, they’re just so many ways that those intersect. And I think that’s why our approach has to be from a listening and from a client place. Like, we have to listen and take it from where the client wants to go, because if you come in with assumptions? Um. It’s almost like, you’re almost– Indubitably gonna lead yourself astray.

[00:21:19]

Mhm hmm.  Um. Last time we talked, you said this thing that I loved that I’m gonna quote you back to you, I think.

Okay. 

Um. “What I love is that, though there is a lot of need,” uh, “this isn’t only about crisis. What brings our clients most often together is joy, and stories of joy.” And I’m wondering if you could share with me any of those stories of, like, the stories of joy and the stories of success and the stories of, you know. Of, like, kids starting a new life and the happinesses and that. You know, [overlapping] ‘cause I think we hear a lot of the, like–

[overlapping] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think what, that is, what I love about the work is that, um. Yeah. Pretty much everyone we serve has been through some difficult time, has been through trauma. But that’s not the unifying factor anymore. Um. And it can be! I’m not saying it’s a walk in the park. Like, there is a lot to deal with, but also I get to work with school kids trying to just, like, to create positive experiences. Um. I have so much respect and honor for my colleagues and classmates who do domestic violence work. Uh, child welfare work. But they’re, it’s like, kind of the unifying factor is some kind of crisis? And I love that that is not the kind of– Only unifying factor. Um. So. Especially because I get to work with the, our kids, matching them with tutors. We have so much, so much joy! There was this little 4 year old Afghan boy who was very excited to meet his new tutor on Zoom. And his mom said “Hey! You know, it’s almost like, 5 pm! We have this meeting with Maya!” And he ran to the bathroom and he combed his hair and he put on some perfume for his Zoom meeting! And, I just [laughing] I, I can’t– oh, there’s my dog again. [laughs] I just can’t, um– Tell that story and not– Um, there was another 4 year old, um, different Afghan boy who lives near me and his pri– or, used to, they moved now, but his preschool is really close to me so I’ve gone to pick him up a few times and bring him home if there’s some kind of medical appointment or issue. And, um. The first day he went to preschool I took him and he was crying because he had never been away from his parents! Um, both of them at the same! And so I learned how to say “calm down, your father is coming!” in Persian and teach it to the preschool teachers so they could try to work with him. And the last time I picked him up, he was, you know. He was just talking to me in, in Dari, in Afghan Persian and I buckled him in his booster seat, we’re driving home, and he’s just like “Maya! [gibberish]” And like, talking, talking, and just didn’t care that I couldn’t understand him! Like, was pleased for the company! Um. And he would call me “Cookie Maya” because, um, his mom always took out cookies if I ended up at the house. [laughs] Um.

[00:24:19]

Um. As a hospitality, like, “Oh! The cookies must come out ‘cause, ‘cause Maya’s coming!” Um. Just so much beauty, so much, um– strength. Our, we have one family who lived in Israel for nine years before being resettled here and so I speak with them in Hebrew, and even though they’re Christian they joined my weekly Shabbat services, ‘cause they liked listening to the services in Hebrew and were very active on it and their kids would yell “Shabbat Shalom!” to other kids on the call and it was just so beautiful to be a part of this bigger community. Um. And it’s definitely, any time there’s a moment like that. I mean, there are definitely hard days but it’s like. “Oh yeah, I love my job, I would, I take the hardship for this.” Like. [laughs] Um– For that joy. For that resilience. 

That’s beautiful. Yeah, last time we talked you said, you know, the story is, you know, obviously there’s huge advocacy moments but so much of the story is a story of small stories.

Yeah.

Uh, I love that. Looking at it that way. Um– Okay so, great, so we could– so we did a joyful one. So now I’m gonna ask a little about the challenges or the hardships or like what are, what is, you know. Can you share a time when the work really challenged you? Um. Can be a moment or can be, you know, sort of an overall idea about– The challenge of doing this work.

I think– so this family that I ended on, who had lived in Israel, um, has had some of my greatest joys and my greatest challenges with them in that, um. Again, it kind of serves as a microcosm for other challenges. Um, this family has been through so much. Um. And you’d look at parents escaping a country that is untenable to live in peacefully and safely. And, their parents having lived through war and having lost siblings and family members. And always pushing to survive and self advocating. And then they arrive here and it’s a moment to breathe? And it’s an exciting moment. And it's also, there’s a lot of disappointments in that because, suddenly not everything is fixed? Even though they– it could be? Uh. The US healthcare system is not as good as it was in Israel, so even though they didn’t have the same kind of insurance access, so if there was some kind of emergency or some kind of operation needed, they could just get it [laughs] in Israel. And, and that’s not the way it works here, and that’s just one example. And so. This is a family who has been fighting to survive for so long. And here it’s a different kind of process that you have to– Be more patient. That you have to trust more in the process because you have, say, legal status. And that feels really uncomfortable, and it makes doing bureaucratic work really hard.

[00:27:25]

And it creates a lot of anxiety and that anxiety can wo– suddenly work against a family who had, it’s been working for them to survive, but living and surviving are– sometimes take different skills. And I do think we see that, um, that shift is difficult for families. And it’s difficult for case managers, difficult for social workers. Because it’s a lot of pressure and highest stakes-ness. [laughs] To tolerate every day– especially when you might know that something isn’t high stakes, but that doesn’t matter to the client. This thing has always been high stakes or felt high stakes. So like, how can you serve the client and be respectful, but also keep some calm? Because we aren’t doing crisis work. And like, crisis work has different kinds of safeguards to make sure you don’t burn out. Um– So. I don’t know if I answered your questions.

Yeah. Yeah, I have a second one which is, I’m not sure what the question is exactly but um. What are your greatest concerns or what are the changes that you want to see to immigration policy? So sort of the big picture of like, what, what needs to change to make like, what– Er, your face is saying “everything.” The entire, the entire system needs to change. Like where, you know. What’s the big picture advocacy that we want to see– make happen?

So much. I mean. I think what I love about doing this work in the US is that, like, constitutionally, anything is possible? [laughs] Feel, like, my very weird, like, backward patriotism of, like, constitutionally anyone born in this country can be American. Like, there is no– Racial, ethnic, religious, like, requirement. But then. What does that look like in practice? There’s so many laws and policies and cultural things that impede that. And so it’s, I think for me it’s always trying to push those away. Um. There’s a lot that needs to happen, I think. Um. This whole idea of like– Legal immigration is just so– Modernly contrived? Um, out of– and this is my history brain, of like. You couldn’t illegally immigrate until less than 100 years ago because there was no such thing! There was no– the borders weren’t fixed! You could go wherever you wanted and you were a pioneer or you were a, you know. And, and so, that whole concept, it feels like people hang onto it like it’s always been this way but it really hasn’t and I think it just in a lot of ways needs to be, um, pushed away? 

[00:30:15]

I will say that someone sent me a list. Um. Som– someone forwarded me from my congresswoman’s office, the list of what, um, day one immigration proposals would look like under Biden. And even though I knew the source, I thought it was a joke. Because I was like, there’s no way that, like, we’ve been living in this nightmare of fighting for every little thing, um. And so there’s still a lot to fight for but I, I am letting myself enjoy this moment of, like, all of these opportunities are opening up.

Yeah. And that, that sort of leads me into the next question too which is like. So that was, like, the big picture change. What is the, like, you know, you talk a lot about direct advocacy which I love, for like, person to person impact we have on each other’s lives and– What are the cha– the, the small changes you wanna see for your, your specific community? For the individuals in–

 I wish there were– Ways to, I think, uh, education and employment integration is a really important one. So many of our clients are underutilized, whether it’s because they have medical or engineering degrees or because they’re just so– Smart and hard working and they just can't get access to the kinds of jobs that would make our community better by having them in them. Um. And that includes teaching. Like. The kinds of people who I would want my future kids to work with every day, and just how many barriers there are, um. So I think that’s a really important one. Um. I think that for folks who have had interrupted– who have interrupted schooling– it’s really hard to get back on track. Um. Because school is such a trajectory? Um. And with ages and– And uh. I wish that, you know. There were more ways to make up for lost time or lo– lost opportunity. Um. [pause] Yeah, those are a couple that come to mind.

Mhm hmm. Um. So here’s a selfish question on my point. How does, how, how does art play into your life and your work and– you talked a little bit about this and, how is that useful? Or, is it?

It’s so important! Um. Me goofin’ around with the kids playing guitar, reading books– [pause] It keeps me alive and going. That’s the stuff I love doing. I love connecting with people in those ways.

[00:33:04]

I used to write much more poetry, the process. And I think again I’m in a social or graduate school now, so just the. Spending more time on the computer writing is not the natural outlet right now and that’s okay, but it has been important to me to process and. Poetry and kind of short nonfiction essays to think about. Um– Where um, like– [pause] Like, connect the global to my personal experience to, to my clients or whatever. Um– So those things have been important. And then, I think art. I mean it’s just such a– Natural thing, actually, in our lives, and it doesn’t have to be this big to do. Um. And– And I feel that also with my partner that we’ve started just painting at home for fun as a way to relax and we do crosswords and things and just. Um– Like, ways to find joy. Throughout life, and um, art can be really deep, but it can also just be really fun and funny and joyful. 

Um. What else do you do– you know, you care, you carry so much, um, taking care of other people. What kind of self-care, or like, how do you– and especially with this Zoom world, right. It’s like people are literally in your house. So you can close your computer and they’re still in the room with you in a way, you know? And how do you. How do you manage that, what’s your advice around that? Self-care? Boundaries?

I try to close my eyes in the afternoon for a little bit. Whether it’s a nap or just closing my eyes. Um. ‘Cause Zoom fatigue is real. Um. [laughs] Having a dog honestly makes me go outside. I have, like, a tangible creature. I can, like, hug and avert my attention to for a few minutes. Like, honestly, that’s probably been the biggest thing. Um. The, yeah– Yeah, my partner and I, we take him on walks in the middle of the day if we can. We just try to, um. [pause] And, and I think for me the hardest piece of self-care is those time boundaries that, I feel like I, I don’t necessarily have much else to do so I could keep working, but like. That's not a way to recharge. That’s not a way to do this work. So. [pause]

Um. Okay. If, if hypothetically, a play or a movie was made about your life or your community, what, what story would have to be in it? What character? What, like, what would have to be in it?

[pause] Play or movie– [clicking]

What scene or moment? Are you getting a thing you need to respond to right now?

Yeah. [laughs]

Speaking of art imitating life. [laughs]

[laughs]

[00:36:00]

Um, if you need me to pause, just let me know.

Um, I might for a second. I’m hoping to, um– [silence] Are you paused? So I do have to say, my– My dad is really an important person in my life, and he’s such a character. Um. [laughs] He looks like Albert Einstein. He’s, like, a crazy professor vibe. He’s, like, very goofy. I go to him for everything, and like. He’s just one of those made-for-tv characters! [laughs] And I think, like– We were always a home that had so much joy and laughter and, like, everyone liked coming over to our house because it was like that? And so I can’t imagine a movie or a play about my life that that isn’t a central– Vibe? [laughs] Um. And I do think that with my partner now, that’s been one of the most important things is that I do really heavy work sometimes, and I love my work, but– I used to kind of do this for– For work and for play and volunteer and stuff, and like, now it’s like. My partner does something completely different. He’s in business, he loves it. And it just makes sure that kind of what we share is also this, like, joyfulness and light-foot, like, lightfulness and laughter. Um– That I can’t live without. And I think I tried living without it because I have a fire for social justice that’s really strong. But, um. It’s kind of like those things, you know. Those quotes about art that like, if you don’t fund the arts, like, why are you fighting the war? Like, what are you? Like, if you’re not fighting to have a joyful life– Like, why, why fight for it? Because it can get so– hard. And like, it can be really, really hard to do this work and to see how many barriers there are for our clients? Um. And I still want to work at it. I can’t imagine myself doing anything else. I can only imagine myself really doing social work. Um. Or something on this spectrum, anyway. Um. But being able to eat good food and travel and, um– Just all those other pieces. We, like, are very silly in our house and we laugh a lot and– Um. Like, dogs are good for that because they can kind of, like, only conduct your simple emotions with you. Um. Like– Little Ben here can’t understand the complexity of the world but, he knows if I’m happy and he knows if I’m sad, so. [laughs] 

Beautiful. Um. So the only other question I have is, if there’s anything I haven’t asked you that you think [sneeze] I should– gesundheit! That was a very cute sneeze. [laughs] Or, sometimes the way to put it is, if you were interviewing you, what would you have asked that I didn’t ask?

Hm– [pause] 

[00:39:18]

You know, it’s really interesting because, I feel like– Some of the questions you asked, like. They did direct, like, I, part of the central narrative of my life has been, like, being multicultural, being of two places, like, wanting to do that in my work with interfaith work and have all these different pieces of me be present. And I think, as I grow older, they just feel more comfortable and so it’s less– If you don’t tell this one thing, like, you’ve missed this narrative of my life because it’s kind of just more sneaked in organically. And, um– Like, I miss my family in Israel a lot, but I, I kind of– what I was saying, like, about that existential thought about Judaism, like. That culturally feels– kind of the same! That now it’s like I do this work here and I have friends from all different times in my life and I– my friendships are really important to me. I mean, that would be– Um. It’s a hard thing to talk about in a short interview, but it’s so central to my self-care and just motivation. Um, is really good friendships. Um, and I think. Yeah! I mean that, those are the things that make my life full now. And it’s not, I’m sure I will continue doing this work and probably take on bigger roles? But like. I don’t feel like I’m trying to work towards one trajectory in which I live in a certain place and have a certain job. Um. But it, it feels comfortable to be living in now. And I think partly– there he is. [laughs] Partly, um– [laughs] I love being a part of community in whatever way that means. Um. And so our neighborhood now, like, where– we rent here, so we won’t be here forever just by design. Um. But, the kids came– the neighborhood kids came and asked to borrow our dog for playtime last week, and like. There’s just all these, like, dogs and kids who play in the back and um. It just feels really nice and comfortable. Um. In a way that– Even a few years ago I just felt so much more turmoil and I’ve been through my own mental health journey and I think, I mean. That would be a real conflict point in a movie about me. Um. That, uh. I, I think therapy has been important to me, but also just taking time to think about the texture of my life, like, how I’m feeling about it and what to do and how to take, kind of clinical data and apply it and not just ignore it and say like, kind of numb yourself to it, but to, if something is really hurting? Like, to think about why?

[00:42:20]

Um. And that’s also another piece that is– that I love about social work, is that it, it recognizes that even non-clinical clients have clinical needs and so how do you kind of integrate that even if you’re not a therapist. And when do you say, “okay, I think maybe you should talk to a therapist.” Like, “this is too much. Like, let’s talk about that”. But, um. I think those are all pieces that– It’s a very weird time to be in a global pandemic, um. To be, comma, “In a global pandemic”, um. And it’s very exhausting. Um. But I’m really grateful that I’ve been able to do some of that stabilizing work before so that I can just kind of try to enjoy it even from home. Um– Yeah. Um. Salsa dancing would have to be in that narrative. I miss that a lot. Um. And I’m one of these people that I love dancing and I love going to sleep early and there’s just, like, not enough opportunities to bring those two together. Um. [laughs] But, I was part of a salsa–dancing community that I was like, early evening, you know. Um. Classes and occasional kind of like socials. Um. I love, love, love dancing. Um. And so– There are things I miss. I’m ready to go out into the world. Um. But I also feel like I know– I know where my footsteps are going right now and, and that feels good. 

Mhm. So many interesting things you’ve sa– you just said about how, I mean, how your identity meets the work in such a meaningful way and um. About, you know, belonging and disbelonging and how this plays into both your personal narrative and how you meet your clients needs. Um. One question that we sometimes ask is about, like, do you have any memories of feeling like an outsider, of, of not belonging and, I feel like that’s something that you’ve sort of brought up in a, a little bit– yeah– how you understand what your clients might be going through.

Yeah! I mean, I think I grew up with– in an Isralie family in Indiana. There were other Isralies and other international folks, but we were like– my parents were like “We are Isralie!” like, “We are not American!” That was a whole, you know, like, mess to work through! [laughs] In adulthood. But, um. But I, I remember feeling like, we’re not, we don’t do it right. Like, what shoes we buy for the winter. And like, how we got ready for prom, and like, my pare– like, we didn’t know, and so we’re always trying to play pretend to do it like other families, or my friends. Like, not people who I didn’t care about, but the people I did. Like. There– that was a long time insecurity I think. Um. I was also a very– imaginative child? Um. And very expressive about it. And, like, the kind of thing that, you know, in my hometown, people would be like “oh, I still remember when you were seven, Maya, and you took the mic at the [inaudible] show at the Synagogue and you sang ‘All Shook Up’ by Elvis Presley and I’ll never forget!” I’m like “Oh my God!” Um. [laughs] Very dramatic kid. And I had an imaginary friend for like four years who had an imaginary country and siblings and sixty-seven pets and TV shows she watched and like, my mom wrote a whole book of everything I told her about my imaginary friend Bumblebee. Um. So. 

[00:46:02]

It took me a while to have, like, a strong friend group in life. Um. And there were times when I, I felt– I had a good friend but I felt left out, I, I was not, like, cool? I wouldn’t– I wasn’t particularly bullied, only a little bit, but. It was more just kind of in my own little world. Um. Wanting to, like, write plays and play with playmobil and all of those kinds of things. Um. And, and there are pieces of me that sometimes I have to talk to that little girl inside me and be like, “Hey! It’s okay,” like, “you have your own thing going on!” Um. And it’s less and less, which is beautiful! Um– But I definitely think that’s, that’s a piece of that journey.

Mhm– Okay, I’m gonna stop this rec– 

[00:46:54]