Anna Petrie is a non-linear student who is currently finishing up a law degree at Rutgers Law School in Newark. She is a director and case manager at Interfaith RISE.

ANNOTATIONS

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TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Ashley Teague

Interview conducted remotely

March 5, 2021

Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn

[00:00:00]

So, we just wanna start by, um. I'm going to say “my name’s Ashley Teague. I'm the interviewer. And the date is March 5th, 2021. And we are doing this interview on, uh, Zoom because there is a, a global pandemic in effect.” Um, and then will you tell me your name and, and spell it for me?

Right now? 

Yup. 

Okay. Um, my name, name is Anna Petrie, A-N-N-A, Petrie, P-E-T-R-I-E.

Beautiful. You passed the first test. See, these are the things I'm not supposed to do when I'm being a professional interviewer, is make jokes like that. Okay. Um, oh! What year were you born and where?

I was born March 12th, 1985 in Freehold, New Jersey.

Beautiful. And did you grow up there or did you move around at all?

Um, pretty much. I grew up in New Jersey, but, um, we did have like, a sh– Like, a series when I was five where we, like, lived in Arizona and San Francisco and Chicago for, like, work stuff. So I had a period of moving, but primarily here. 

And who is we? Like, what was your family unit? Like, like, siblings and extended family, et cetera.

Yeah. So I am from, uh, like, I'm very European American, like, from people, from like, farmers in Ohio and upstate New York. So my parents are married. Um, and they moved to New Jersey when the, like, AT&T Lucent technology boom was going on in the early eighties and decided to have a family and had got married and had kids. So I'm the oldest of four kids. I have two brothers and one sister.

Hmmm. 

Yeah!

Um, and, um, who, who was most influential in raising you as a kid? Were there any, like, childhood heroes or mentors or, you know, your parents, you know.

Yeah! Um, I mean, my parents are, like, very involved parents. Like, they wanted to have kids and they had kids and my mom was, like, raised us and was, you know, um, so probably my biggest, like, people in my life are probably my parents when I was little. And, um, other people that influenced me? Like, growing up? [pause] Um. [pause] Yeah, I mean, I guess just family, like, I gran– I remember some grandmothers, like, my grand, you know, parents. They've all died now, but I had, you know, when I was growing up my grandparents. And I have no extended family in New Jersey, so it was kind of like, the nuclear family felt like, the inner definition of family and then there's family part away? So, um, yeah! I don't know. I guess I don't, I ha– I probably, my third grade teacher, Mrs. Maniscalco, like, made me love reading. [inaudible whispering] 

Um, and, you know, I realize, I, I don't know if we talked about this before, but, um, your siblings or your other siblings, do they still live in the area or have, are they still part of like– do you all do holidays together? Or like, what is the relationship now? 

[00:02:57]

Yeah, we do holidays together. Um, they– so everybody else lives out of state. Um, I'm the only one that came back. But, um, so I have a sister who is engaged and lives with Hank, uh, her fiancé. And, um, in, again, New York she's actually visiting right now, but so she went to college up there and they met and then she never left. He’s from up there. So he owns Ithaca Ice Company, and they live together in a house, have a dog. And, um, then I have a brother, Ty, who moved to Detroit, Michigan, like, eight years ago. And it was, like, a little bit trendy to do that and, like, do like, urban farming, but then he never left and had a series of businesses that didn't really work out. But now he owns, like, a general contracting business. He’s actually gotten pretty good at, like, fixing dilapidated houses in Detroit. Which is very needed, but not very lucrative, so. And I–

[inaudible overlapping] 

[inaudible overlapping] 

Keep going, keep going.

And then I have a brother Zach, who, um, is– He got his, he studied, like, biology and, like, wild wilderness? Stuff. And then he's done a series of, like, managing different research projects for like, PhD students and stuff. And he's currently just quit a UPS job and he's in Minnesota kind of in between things trying to figure out his next. Decision.

Mhm hmm. 

Next week.

Um, and, uh, and if there's any questions you don't want to answer, or you want to come back to, you can always say “skip” and we can come back or we can skip it in general. Um, but was, um, what about religion or spirituality in the home? Was that, that part of your upbringing?

Mhm hmm. Yeah. Um, we, so my parents never really went to church. Um, but then when they had a kid, like, they had me and they decided to start going then, I think. I know they did. And so they ended up going to this really small Presbyterian church in, um, Englishtown, New Jersey, which was, um, it's kinda like, an old farming community. So a very working class, but, um, like, just like, it wasn't diverse. But, um, it was good people. I had a lot of fun, it was very small. I was struggling. Like, my parents always, like, were very involved with leadership because there was like, [laughs] no one else to do it, kind of? Um, so I was like, raised in that community and felt very loved and cared for and had the language of, like, Christianity and like, that was normal. So, um, and then when I was, I think I was mentioning last time we spoke, um, when I was like, 13 or 14, there was this, like, movement in the mid to late nineties called The Confessing Church movement in this Presbyterian church. I don't know if it was wider. But it was in the Presbyterian church and it came through and they said that people that were gay– that's the language of the time– were, um. Could not have any leadership roles. There was something just very suspicious about them morally, or, you know, as you make. So they couldn't, there's something wrong. And it was just this hypothetical. Like, conflict, they got nasty. ‘Cause there was no one that was like, openly gay in the church. It was just like, these hypothetical people can't, aren't welcome here. So I just, like, was done with church at that point. And so, we stopped going there. It broke, broke the community. I don't know people that have been parts of faith communities that have broken? It's painful, but that's– So it broke and we left and I never went back to church until like, I was in my late twenties. 

[00:06:21]

How old [audio cuts out]?

Please keep going. Sorry

How old were you then when that happened? When that?

Like 13, 14. Like, just like, aware enough to like. Know what it meant. Like, have more understanding of the conflict itself.

Yeah. Did you know gay– any openly gay people in your life outside, even outside the church?

Um. Did I know any openly gay people? Sooo not really openly, like, I think that there was people that, there was never like, a, um, LGBTQ couple that was, like, a part of my life where it was, like, not– Like, heterosexuality was pretty normative. I have a brother who, um, identifies as gay now and my youngest brother, Zach in Minnesota. So part of me wonders if like, on a gut level, I just felt very protective. Like, you know, it’s kind of. I don’t know. I always, I just felt like, the heteronormative normativity was like, kind of violent to him in a way. 

Mhm.

Very kind of protective from a young age.

Um, so what did you do after high school? What was your next step?

So I graduated from Colton high school in 20– 2003, not 2013. Um, and. Um.

Ten years of high schooling. 

[laughs] 

[inaudible]

Um, so I took a gap year. I didn't really know if I wanted to go to college. I was confused. High school was rough. So, um, I went and lived in Costa Rica and, and did like, a, it's called a. What's it called? AFS. Some type of like, international, like, program for people that have, like, a gap year. And I, like, lived with a family and, like, volunteered at a children home for kids and learned Spanish and it was great. Yeah. Yeah. It was fun.

Do you speak any other languages besides English and Spanish? Did you grow up?

I lived in Niger, like. This was years later when I was 27. I moved to Niger in Africa, which is Francophone. So I, at one point in my life could speak French fluently, but I had subsequently just, like, only– I have forgotten a lot of it and just mix it up with, [laughs] with Spanish and English. So I just so, no language! [laughs] Yeah.

Um, and okay. So what, so Costa Rica and then what, what happened after Costa Rica? What was the next step?

So then came back and I just worked at, like, I think it was Dunkin’ Donuts and then a summer camp. And then I started, um, like, in the fall. I was there for six months. And then I spent another six months just doing odd and then started at the fall as a freshmen at Muhlenberg college in Allentown, Pennsylvania. So I started school there and, um.

[00:09:04]

Just kind of, I was really, got really involved when I was there. Like, my time was spent, um, studying and then I ran for student council, was on student council. Which was fun for a little bit, but, um. I was ultimately like, pretty like, depressed. And, um, at that point in my life, I didn't really, I wasn't happy. I had fallen in love for the first time and fallen out of love. I was like, in a lot of self-conflict in myself and ultimately just like– I stayed at Muhlenberg for like two years total. But, um, there was, like, a series of things that didn't, I was never socially in a good niche.

I had a good friend who started using drugs and, like, that was like, not great. And, um, student council, like, the second year I was there, the seniors on the student council hazed the freshmen. So the entire second year that I was on student council was just this internal bullshit thing of, like, hazing. It was just, like, ultimately completely the opposite of any type of community building. I rushed a sorority and that was terrible. And I had an eating disorder, so I had to leave school and go into some treatment and come back and then realize that, like, I don't want to pay. I don't want to use all my parents' money to be so miserable. [laughs] So I left! I was like, “screw college, if this is college, I'm done.” So I dropped out after two years.

Have your parents been supportive of your, um. Um, your sort. Like, was, was it hard to have to talk to them about “I'm, I'm choosing a gap year, I'm choosing to leave school, I'm choosing,” or, you know, what was their sort of take on that stuff?

They have always had a stance where they haven't taken, like, l– Like, opinion place, like, stances in my life. Like, they don't usually say, like, “we think you should bladdy blah,” and like, hold to a position for me. So they're generally very supportive. It is to say, you know, I think that doesn't mean they didn't worry and kind of like, “just get a degree.” But, um, they're supportive of me not being miserable, I think. So, I moved home. So, um, so I was in Allentown. I, I left to finish the semester and came home and was just like, “I’m not doing that again.” And so then I took another year off and ended up working in Jackson, New Jersey. There's a school called the Alpha School, which is a special needs school. So, I worked as a one-on-one teaching assistant to a little girl there who had a series of issues, um, and, like, loved it. Met really good people, had a really nice, you know, year of just kind of groundedness and reconnecting. And, um. And so then I thought I wanted it to be a special needs teacher. So I was like, okay, well, let me go back to school. So I spent that year working at the school and then reapplying to go back to colleges, but I knew I– I was like, “I'm not going anywhere where there's a Greek life!” Like, screw that, you know, “I want to go someplace where there's like, some sense of like, real community.” So I ended up going and applying to a really small school at– called Warren Wilson College outside, um, in Nashville, right outside of Asheville in Swannanoa, which is a work college. So there's no, you know, there's no football team. I think that, like, the school mascot is, like, a green tree. Like, there's just nothing very competitive about it! [laughing]

[00:12:13]

And, um. Yeah, just, and so I decided to go down there and then I spent the summer, um, backpacking in California. I did it like a program. I did two programs over that summer before I went to Warren Wilson, re– Um, went. Um. Humboldt County has a program where you, called Sear Institute where you, I went into the Backwoods and camped out with these group of like, ten people and read like, Emerson and Thoreau and like, eco psychologists and just like, you know. Hung out and was, you know, it felt like community. And, um, went skinny dipping for the first time, it was people from California as opposed to Jersey. [laughs] You know. Uh, and then I did a NOLs program in Alaska and did some sea kayaking in Prince William Sound, and then. So like, these, you know, very rich opportunities and amazing experiences, and then came back and went to Warren Wilson and felt very much alive. So.

Um, and after Warren Wilson, did you go straight into, to Princeton?

No. No. So I'm very much a non–linear student. That's. [laughs] I have this memory of being 22 and filling out my Warren Wilson application and being like, and they have you do adjectives. So I'm, like, sitting at the dinner table and saying to my mom, like, “what adjectives should I put down?” And my mom's like, “patient and amazing and intelligent and witty”. And my dad's like, “non–linear!” [laughs] I always think of myself as like, a non–linear student, but. So I went down there and I worked as a, um, uh, Warren Wilson. I studied global studies, which is basically international studies and Spanish. And then worked in, they had a vegan café, very idyllic, like, this little vegan café. Learned to, to do some, yeah. The systems of that. I was never a good cook, but I could cut up onions and wash dishes. So. Um, and did that. And then, um. I graduated from there in, um, December of 2009. Um, stayed down in Nashville for six months just working at the vegan café. Um. And, um, yeah! Then I just never, I mean, then I had a period of, so graduated when I was 24. I didn't go back to seminary for six years, so I just had a period of working in different vegan kitchens and kind of hopping around and trying to figure out life. And, um. The rambling twenties, I would call it, cause it was just never really living in, it was just rambling twenties trying to figure out identity and trying new things and not liking different things and like, you know, just figuring it out. So, um, yeah! But I graduated in 2009 and had a good coll– I recommend Warren Wilson to anyone. I think it's a good, solid education for 18 year olds who are trying to, like, solidify an identity as themselves. So.

It's not, is it a liberal arts school? No. 

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

It is liberal arts. Okay. Um, okay. And tell me about deciding to go to Princeton for seminary, that decision and–

[00:15:11]

Yeah, so that was like, it feels like, a different chapter because that was like, I went to– I started seminary in 2015. So, um. I– in between like, 2010 and 2015, I, um, I came home and, you know, I went on a backpacking trip. I had part of the Appalachian trail and then came home after walking and, um, the spring of 2010 from, you know, graduation and, um, got a job in a vegan kitchen. And I honestly, like, I'd only ever used my undergraduate degree to get jobs in kitchens, which I think is probably, like, pretty, not uncommon these days, but. I never actually got a professional job with that degree. So, um, I was here and I was working at this place called Good Karma, um, vegan restaurant in Red Bank, New Jersey. And I did that for a year and I was, um. Very, um. I dunno. Um, I was very much in this like, very, like, kind of militant vegan community where like, like, my definition of the problem was like, monoculture and like, Monsanto and, um. You know, uh, food security, that was like, a big thing. And then I realized that like, all I was doing was cooking, like, higher quality food for like, white, rich people who could afford it and like, people didn't. And so anyway, so I ended up, I had a winter of depression and went to the, ended up going to the church. This is where I get back to the church and told that like, the youth pastor about it. Because my mom was like, “you can't stay up all night watching food, documentaries and being depressed.” Like, “This is not a life that works.” So, um, I ended up volunteering as a missionary in Niger, in Africa and working with some, like, medical doctor and homeschooling some kids in Africa for a year. And they let me go. And I was, like, not a Christian, like, I didn't identify as Christian, but they still would let me go. And then when I was there, I learned French by, like, the only Bib– er, the only books that are like, in English and French is the Bible there, because they're missionaries. So I learned French by, like, studying those two a lot. And I realized that the Bible is actually pretty good book. It's a lot of things, but, um. Yeah, I got interested in it. So did, was in Niger for a year and then I. When I was there, I applied to be part of this, like, Episcopal Church program in Boston. ‘Cause they didn't, I didn't want to come home and just move back home, my parents. And so I applied to that while I was abroad. And came back and then lived in Boston for two and a half years doing work with the, uh, Episcopal Church there. And that was kind of like my step into seminary. I was like, well, “I've done mission work and I've worked for the church here and I see the good work.” And I realized that like, I'd always wanted to do, like, community organizing, like, this abstract kind of, you know, thing. And the church actually does do that in interesting ways. So I decided to go to seminary and ended up Princeton Seminary offered me the most money. So I went to Princeton seminary.

[00:17:58]

Um, and then, uh, coming out of Princeton and ending up at this organization, what was that decision? ‘Cause Princeton is, is it all a, Episcopal? 

No.

[overlapping, inaudible]

Yale's Episcopal. [inaudible] schools but Princeton is, I think it's, it's Presbyterian. [laughing] I should know. [laughing] It's Presbyterian. Um, yeah. But, yeah! So I went there and I was like, when I went to seminary, I was like, “okay, I'm going to be an Episcopal priest.” Like, “That's the thing that I want to do.” So I went there and started school and Princeton Seminary is a very solid education. Like, some Bible schools or, you know, seminaries are not. So I feel more like, indoctrinate, indoctrination than like, actual academic study and Princeton’s solid. So I, um, started digging into my classes and just got confused more than anything else with, um, theology and the study of the church and things like that. And you know, where God is in all of this. Um, and so I was gonna work with the Episcopal church, but really couldn't get a leg in with that community. And, um, and every time I went to their services, they were just asking for money and no one remembered my name, and. So I ended, I knew about this church because my parents are good and go to a reform church now, and this is a reformed church. So I knew about the good work here that was going on. Became an intern and that was the year that Interfaith RISE was just starting this refugee resettlement agency. I started. So, I started as an intern in September of 2016 and this started as a resettlement agency, um, in October of 2016. So I started interning here and then, um, ended up staying on for two years of internship because I did a social work degree and did a social work internship here for the second year. And by the end of the second year, I got offered a job to be a co-director here with another woman and just stayed. So. And then seminary was like, I, I was just confused? Like, I, I didn't in any way, make me feel like, I wanted to be a pastor or a priest or work in the church? Like, I didn't think I could say truth like that. Um, and I also am not good at preaching, [laughs] which is kind of like a job requirement. So, um, it was just, [laughing] seemed like a bad match. So, uh, I realized that. Um. You know, I did work about, or did reading about social workers and social workers and case management positions burnout in about five years, like, it's kind of like, public teachers or teachers, like, it's about a five-year period. So, I realized that I would– wanted it to be able to do something else for immigrants. And then I decided to go to law school in the evenings. Or like, I just kept going, like, I, I never took a break from graduate school? So. I did my sixth year of graduate school running right now. And I have no, like, most people would have a PhD by now, [laughing] but I just have, like, uncompleted degrees! Like. [inaudible]

You're still in, you're still in night school for law school, right? 

Yeah. I graduate in May of ’22. Next year.

And what program is that? Where's that, that you're doing that work?

Uh, Rutgers Law School in Newark.

Um, and what, will you tell me the name of the organization that you work at? The full name of.

[00:21:20]

Yeah, so I work at the Interfaith RISE and RISE stands for Refugee and Immigrant Services and Empowerment. And Interfaith RISE is a refugee resettlement agency that's affiliated with this national agency called USCRI or US Committee for Refugees and Immigrants. Um, so it's like, it's equivalent to, like, the international rescue committee, which people hear more about, but, um, it's, like, another national agency. And we provide, um, resettlement services. So, housing assistance, case management, English classes, employment assistance to refugees, um, and asylees and special immigrant visa recipients. So, all people that are, entered the country or are with legal status or are granted legal status after being here.

And, um, it's all part of a, a larger organization.

Mhm hmm. Yeah. So Interfaith RISE, um, was able to start because it's housed under our umbrella organization called the Reform Church of Highland Park, um, Affordable Housing Corporation. And the reason we were able to start was because, um, OBF, the RCHP-AHC is, it's called the Affordable Housing Corporation has a 501C3, um, started a 501C3, um, back, I think it was like, 20– 2006 or something like that. Don't quote me on that, but sometime a while ago. And, um. So we were able to start because we were– we started under that 501C3, which already had like five years of audited financials. So that's the way we were able to start. And so we function, um, as a subsidiary of, um, of the Affordable Housing Corporation.

Beautiful. Um, and who, uh, who does I RISE serve? I know you sort of said broadly, but, um, what kinds of individuals do you work with?

It's interesting doing refugee resettlement work because, um, the national refugee resettlement program run by the state department has different priorities that's set by the president every year. So, since I've started, which is not long, um, in the history of this, you know, resettlement, large program, it's been a lot of people from Afghanistan? Like, primarily people from Afghanistan. And, uh, a lot of people from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, because the Africa– um, in the past couple of years has been prioritized by the administration for, like, the first time in decades. Like, so when you resettle people from the Congo, it's usually people that have grown up in refugee camps and, like, Uganda or Rwanda or these, um, the countries surrounding the Congo Democratic Republic of the Congo. 

[00:24:07]

And then Afghanistan, were resettling, um, people who, uh, you know, from that war, that's going on. Um. People who have been aligned with the U S troops going in? So it’s in support of the US, groups are those individuals and families are then targeted by the Taliban. So Congress created, um, a program called the Special Immigrant Visa Program and people that are being targeted, um, and are being persecuted because of their help for the US military can apply for this status and come over and get a green card like. [snaps] Immediately, which is unique to the program.

Mhm. Um, what, um, what's a typical day for you? Like?

Umm.

Like, what's the nitty gritty of what you do?

It's interesting working at, like, a small– I like, to fill out a small scrappy nonprofit because, like, they give you nice titles, like, coordinator of this, or, like, director of that. Like, so I'm the Director of the Agency, which he means exactly like, you do whatever needs to get done, like, fix the coffee machine or take out the trash or like, deal with whatever fire is happening, or like, have a case management meeting or, you know. Worry about a report that needs to get due. So it's very variable, I would say? Um, depending on the day. But my main tasks are, um. I continue to be a case manager because we're small enough that, um, we– I also need to manage cases. So, I provide a lot of meetings with clients where I'm applying for Medicaid or New Jersey Family Care, food stamps, um, or cash assistance. And then also like, helping them, keeping those applications going, like, submitting supporting documents and stuff. I were– do reportings for, um, we have, we have three main sources of funding. One is USCRI, like I mentioned before, our affiliate national organization, US Committee for Refugees and Immigrants. And then our second big funder is New Jersey Office for Refugees. And then our third funder is just community donations. So for the first two, I ended up doing a lot of reporting, like, submitting reports to them. Um, and then I, for the first time, um, the past year I've, um, had people to supervise. So I had like, there's– we've hired a lot of people. So I have supervision meetings with, with staff just to find out how I can best support them on what's going on with their work, like. Checking in and having staff meetings and things like that.

And on a meeting recently, uh, it, it came up the reporting and the, just like, an enormous amount of paperwork that comes across, um, folks desks over there and yours in particular. I'm curious about the balance of advocacy and bureaucracy and, like, what measure of that paperwork you feel like, is like, yes, necessary and useful and like, is, is it all necessary and useful? And it just is a lot of time, or do you feel like, some measure of it is maybe not serving the actual work you're trying to do?

[00:26:56]

No. I think we live in a s– like, there's too much paperwork. It is more paperwork than it's actually useful, or that even our funders look at. Our funders will require a lot of paperwork, but then not actually ever look at it, like, our case files. Which doesn't mean that none of it has any purpose? But I think that, um. Yeah, the pape– like, there's, there's a lot of paperwork, I think with any federal funding, you accept the beast of paperwork. But, um. So, yeah, I mean, that's always the, the dance, I would say as an organization, definitely up until this point, had– we've been very client focused to the detriment of reports? And, um, that's kind of been, my stance is like, if there's a report to, and then a human being walks in through the door, like, I'm going to deal with human being at the door, just cause, like, that's reality. And it seems appropriate if that's who we're serving? Um. And recently I have also accepted the reality of, I am also accountable to these human beings who are– need reports for me to hand off, to like, a higher level that they're getting demands from. So I'm trying to be a little bit, like, more accommodating in the paperwork too. Like, not perfection, it's not about perfection with the paperwork. It's about a signature and done, so.

Mhm. Yeah. 

Accuracy, but not like, beauty. So.

Do you have any examples or stories or moments from those interactions, direct interactions with clients that are particularly meaningful to you? Or impactful, or like, you know, reminders of like, why?

So many! Um, it's like. and it’s changed much ‘cause you get phases of people or, you know, active people in the organization and then they leave. But, um. [tsk] So… It's really, so for example, start off with, like, the range of human beings that are entering us through this country are– is vast and huge. Just like any human population is. So that makes it interesting. And we've resettled one family who was a guy who I remember driving with him in the car and he had a Ph– was from, he's from Iraq. He still lives here. And he had a PhD in robotics and he spoke about how being in a room. And he had been groomed by this, like, under, um, Saddam Hussein and his regime to be a high academic and to represent Iraq. And so he has a memory of being in these rooms, taking these exams and, and there was like, you know, Saddam Hussein's, like, high up, like, people checking in to see how the exam was going, because he was kind of on this tier of, like, you know, representing. Just these crazy stories of being in this world. And, and now he's here and he had, he did post–doctorate work at New York University. So that's like, you know, one family that comes through with just these crazy stories of Iraq and the interactions there, and then, come, you know, being granted status here. And then, um, so that's one like, um. Just, like, fascinating creatures that come through this program. 

[00:30:00]

And I have a– so I have another memory of, um, doing, of having a family come, a family of nine coming from the Congo. And, you know, they come one day and the next day we go to the house and just make sure they know how to use the stove and, you know, go through everything. And that family. Um, we were in the bathroom explaining how to turn on the shower and turn off the shower and hot water and cold water. Things that they'd never had before? And I remember flushing the toilet and they were just– the dad who was probably in his sixties was just like, “What?” And he was like, really like, like, this toilet flushing thing was very weird. And, um, he turns to the translator and he was like, “That's an American thing!” [laughs] Like a flushed toilet! Like. I don’t know. Just like, the diversity, if you have things that come through are like, well. That's why, like, for me, um, this work is so beautiful because I get to work with people that are in a very, um, vulnerable place in their life. And in the middle of, like, one of the biggest transitions they'll probably ever make, um, in their life, like, permanently migrated into a country where they know nobody. Or maybe one person. So, the level of authenticity and kind of, openness, like, wide eyedness to what life is, is unique in these settings compared to, like, other types of work or other human interactions I've had. That's like, feels like, such a gift. 

Yeah. That sort of answers my next question, which was like, what do you love about doing this work? And maybe that's the answer. I don't know. Is there anything else that is like, really, keeps you going?

That's the answer! I mean that, you know, seeing people, like, being able to connect with people in that place is really cool. I think the only other answer is to see kids come and, um, you know, open, you know, open up and, you know, get in school and get– it's always fun when you see kids who really thrive in school, who like, you know. It's a game and all of a sudden they figure out the language and then, you know, they, they really thrive under stress, like, opportunities that they never had before and are grateful for it in a different way ‘cause they didn't have it. So. That's always cool to see, too.

Yeah. That sort of answers my next question! You're one question ahead of me, which is about just, like, moments of real success where you felt like, “ah, yes! I did it, we did it, we did this, like, right! The work I'm doing.” Right? You do the reports all day, but there's also those moments of like, “It's really important. Oh wow. This is really important, what I'm doing.”

Yeah, um. Yeah, I think– I think like any type of social worker working with a vulnerable population it feels like– Like, once in a while you have these, like, like, amazing, beautiful, goosebump moments, but a lot of the time it's kind of like sludging and feeling like, maybe this is failing. It's like, both, and. But. [background noise

[00:33:01]

Um, moments where I felt recently like, it's, um, beautiful is we've had a family that struggled a lot with violence in the home and different levels of domestic violence. And so they have a daughter who is a teenager that's in that family. And she's been coming here to start doing school outside of the house just during the days to get a break and to be able to focus. And so, um, I had a– she was an end of the day and I went and just sat down and talked to her for a couple of minutes. And she was saying that she– she was just so. She was like, the opportunity to just to get out of the house and study at the church and to have someone, like, have people check in with her, give her a meal. Not me, like, just someone within the building. Has– She was just so happy and it's such a change from where she was before, like, where she was really sad over last summer and really disconnected and really felt, like, unseen. And now she came in and she really wants to play baseball, which she just learned is actually called softball. [laughs] Which I didn't know either for what, girls, which I feel like. But anyway, um, so she's gonna play, you know, softball and she, you know, she's really excited about it and she's, you know, getting all A's and just has like, this, yeah. It's just been really cool to see the trends, like people change, like changing and being themselves more.

Yeah. That's beautiful. Um, and then, so that's the– so, yes, the joy and the hope and the successes. And now mostly going to ask about, um, and you've talked to this a little bit about, like, moments of real challenge or moments where you're like, “I don't know if I can.” You know, you mentioned earlier that social workers have like, a five-year burnout rate. Right? Um. And this is obviously a nine-to-five job that's not at all nine-to-five because it's happening in real time. So I'm curious about moments of challenge or, you know, moments where you're like, “Oh gosh, maybe I need to go back to that vegan café.”

[laughs] I never want to go back to the vegan café, but I often just want to go to the woods and go backpacking. [laughs] That's why I skate plan. Um. Yeah. I think there was, the struggle is real. I think boundaries are, um, really appropriate. I think sometimes where I get, like, cross boundaries or I get too much of her emotional exhaustion is where I'm not treating other people like, fully, um, autonomous adults? Like, there– there can be, like, somewhat patronizing stance in social work where we're not letting other people be full adults in charge of their own lives. So like, I kind of have to check myself when I feel like I'm overly responsible for someone's pain or something. Um. But that doesn't answer how it's hard. That's kind of, like, how I cope with the hardness, I guess. Um. But yeah, the, the trauma that people who have been displaced, um, and through wars go through is, um, profound, and I think that the ability for people to articulate that is hard? I think one of the, um, biggest struggles in this work is that our markers of success from our funders are all, is completely economic self-sufficiency like. Did this family come in, get a job and pay for their lives? And if yes, like, check the box, like, they're good. And we did a good quote unquote like, “good job”, like, “good job resettlement agency.” And, um, that is not, like, the marker of success for– in, like, a human being's life when you've already gone through, like, a traumatizing war and are coming to a new country, like, just cause you're able to slog through a job that pays $15 an hour and pay your pretty high rent in New Jersey doesn't mean that you're okay. 

[00:36:46]

Mhm.

So that is really frustrating to me when, um, when the, the measures are so inadequate and actually support wellbeing. 

Mhm. That's a helpful segue too, into just like, what do we want to see change in at, like, a policy level maybe, or in how this work is done? You know, if we could– if right, like, let's say hypothetically a play was being created about this work. What would like– what would we want to be asking policy makers or, or decision makers, or, you know, what would make this work better?

[pause] Um. [pause] Well, one fundamental shift. I'm not really sure if it's like a clear policy thing. It's not as clean as it could be, but, um, is that people that come through the– this program like, asylees and refugees and SIVs. They come in and they're purely recipients of what we give them. And at no point do we offer them the opportunity to take on a stance of, like, knowledge or power, like, within the system? So I think any opportunities to allow for peer-to-peer support or peer leadership within the community is where the programming is going. Like, we– it's not, we can't stay forever in this, give or receive or stop receiving, um. Paradigm. 

Mhm.

So when we get to kind of invite people into a more meaningful connection and acknowledge what they bring to the table too, is helpful as far as like policies that do that. I think that that, um, gets more complicated. But, ways that, you know, I think, yeah. So that's one thing. The other thing that concretely absolutely needs to change is that, um, asylees who are granted a status, um, after they win their case are entitled to receive resettlement services from resettlement agencies. So if an asylee is granted asylum status and they come knocking on our door, we are required to give them services, but there's no funding attached to those services. 

[00:39:01]

So, there's no connecting asylum seekers, once they're granted, to resources. Like, there's no, like, “here's some funding, here's a resettlement agency.” When a refugees arrive, they know the resettlement agency and the resettlement agency sets up housing from the day that they walk, you know, and picks them up the airport. OSI leaves are like, “Okay, you get status.” Like, they don't have, and they have no support from there. And they're hypothetically, like, entitled to getting support, but there's no mechanism to connect them to the support or to fund that support or to oversee any of that. 

Mhm.

So, it's just a huge kind of assumption that that's happening and people are getting that support, but there's absolutely nothing to make sure that there's any safety net. So asylees are dramatically underserved.

Um, and then just so we have it for the recording, um, can you tell me just, um, the like, idiot version of the difference between an asylee, a refugee, and an immigrant?

On a special immigrant visa?

Or yeah, just roughly like, what, what is, what is, how is, uh, what a refugee is seeking or an asylum seeker seeking, how is that different from other immigrants or forms of immigration? Just like, generally overarching. You don't have to get into the nitty gritty of like, the.

Yeah. So immigrant is someone who's coming to this country to remain permanently or their intention is to remain permanently. And it's not connected to any type of legal or illegal status. It's just someone who plans to move here permanently. And a refugee is, um, defined by the UN. And it's a person who is, um, has a well-founded fear of persecution or is being persecuted in their home country. And it, um, on the basis of five protected grounds, so race, religion, ethnicity, um, membership in a social group, or, um, political opinion or affiliation. And so they are, um– Refugees flee their home because of this persecution. Um, and they go into a third, another country. And then they can register as refugees with the UN where they have an interview and they say, “I'm fleeing because I'm a member of this ethnic group and I'm being,” you know, “killed.” And, um, then once they're, um, once that status is granted, the most vulnerable are referred to third countries for resettlement, and so the most vulnerable of these refugees, uh, can come to the US. So when refugees arrive in the US, they have legal status and have already gone through all the processing to receive papers. Um, asylees are individuals who enter the US or, um, and who opened an asylum case. And so they have, they also are fitting the same exact definition of refugees. Like, they are fleeing persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on the same five protected grounds, but they don't, they aren't granted legal status until they're already in the US.

[00:42:02]

So that's the– It's the same exact, like. It's both groups of people are people that are fearing, er fleeing, like, violence, um, in their home places. And one of them enters the US with legal status and one of them has given it here, but there's, they're same types of situations.

So one of them arrives here and then seeks that status, like, right. They, they, they get out first and then they say, “Okay, how do I get this status?” And others might be able to get that prior to having to relocate, or they may relocate to another country in intermediary. 

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 

Yeah. Um, okay, cool. So, the only thing is, like, what didn't I ask you? Or if you are interviewing you, what should I have asked?

Um. [pause] Yeah, I think, um, I think that's a hard question, cause there's– I think that this has been a good conversation. The work is really beautiful here and, um, it's a really interesting and good community. I think we struggle sometimes with, um, creating. We're like, it's so grassroots that the structures are being built as they're like– after they're needed, because we're just growing. So there's always, like, a pain, like, an edge of pain in the work, because we're kind of always trying to figure out the systems after the need has already hit us. So, um, but it's been a really beautiful place to be and the work is good and I appreciate being a part of it. 

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting as it is part of it too, that it's like, there's just so much work that there's no time. Like, wouldn't it be nice if 30% of your job was designated for, like, planning? Like, “I don't actually have to meet anyone. I don't have to do any paperwork. I'm going to sit here and, like, plan the next step. Plan ahead, create programs,” like, “devise structures and systems and create, create the policy documents that go with it.” Like, forward–thinking part.

Yeah! I think in some ways that, like, this second half of COVID has offered that opportunity a little bit and I think, as an organization, we're very much a crisis culture organization or historically that has been what is it. Like, we are running from fire to fire or, like, the most loudest demand at the moment is what we run to to solve. And it leads to higher increases in burnout and just higher levels of stress.

Mhm.

So the more consistency that we can build in, is, um, is the shift that’s happening. I mean it’s, everyone knows that, I think. And it’s– the shift is occurring. 

And do you feel like, um. So, you made me think of a few other questions but I promise I’ll let you go in a moment. Um. Do you feel like, um. Consistency, do you feel like there’s security and stability in, in your job? I mean, being funded by grants, you know, as an artist, I know those are always so, “Who knows!” Do you feel like there are people, feel like, “Oh yes, this program is, is. Has sustainability. This, this job position, this work,” you know?

[00:45:12]

It’s interesting because, it’s like– so Trump came in and then, uh. So it felt like, theoretically maybe, it should be unstable, but actually, we had quite a bit of a stability in fundraising because there was community, like, being like “No, wait!” Like, “We want refugees!” Like.

Mhm.

We end up. The administration sent them in. But now, after four years of going through that and COVID and [cough] [audio cuts out] feels more. Financially unstable than I think it’s ever felt. I think we’re gonna get through it right now. Like, I don’t stay up at night or, like, look for other jobs because I think I’m about to lose mine. Like, I’m not at that point.

Right.

And I think that, uh. It had, like, there is a level of uncertainty in that. I think that, like, people that are a paygrade above me, like. [inaudible] a deal with the, figuring out the finance stuff that I don’t feel that stress. I let [inaudible].

Yeah.

So I try to be, like, fiscally responsible within my own program. But I, I know that that stress is real. It’s just not, I don’t deal with it.

[00:46:14]