Maria Pellerano helped build up the Landers community gardens when they first started. She is now the Assistant Professor of Family Medicine and Community Health at the Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.

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TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Susanna Plotts–Pineda

Interview conducted remotely

February 15, 2021

Transcription by Karlie Zabin

00:00:00

Okay, so it should be recording now. Um, so first of all I just have to say my name and my location, so I’m Suzanna Plotts, I’m currently in Brooklyn and it’s 11 am on February 15th. Could you please do the same? 

Hi, I’m Maria Pellerano, I’m currently in New Brunswick, New Jersey and it’s, uh, 11:02. 

Yes, um, thank you so much. So I just wanna start again. As I explained, it’s kind of like a life course oral history, so we’ll just start from the beginning and kind of go chronically from there. So I wanna start with, um, very basic, um, where were you born, Maria?   

I was born in Somerville, New Jersey in a hospital in Somerville and I grew up in Piscataway, New Jersey. 

Okay. Um, and um, did you have a big family, did you have siblings? 

I have two siblings, a brother and a sister, I’m in the middle. Um, older brother, younger sister. And our family, our extended family I guess you could say was large. My mother had three siblings, my father had two siblings and then we had relatives who we couldn’t exactly tell you how we’re related, but we were related as far as we were concerned! 

Right, right. Um, so did you, did you find yourself seeing your extended family a lot with the kind of–  

Yes, our extended family was all in New York. 

Mhmm. 

My mother’s side of the family was in Brooklyn and my father’s side was in the Bronx. Um, and I would say one weekend a month we would be in one place or another seeing that fam– our family. And then we had– my mother’s sister lived in New Jersey and her two brothers lived out on Long Island so you know, everybody was pretty close, um. We weren’t with our Long Island relatives as much, but I did see my cousins regularly in New Jersey. 

00:2:20

Got it. And did you like going to the city when you were younger? What was that like, visiting your family in Brooklyn and then the Bronx?  

Um, I did like going–I didn’t like the drive for some reason, I didn’t like the bridges and the tunnels when I was a kid [laughing] but I liked the city a lot. I mean, I liked that– so, my parents moved to Piscataway just before I was born actually, earlier in the year. And, um, I grew up with a mother who had grown up on the Lower East Side and, besides living on the Lower East Side, had only lived in Brooklyn and so, she was like a fish out of water where we were living. We lived in a development that had one acre of property, um, we were probably two or three miles from the nearest store and she just did not know how to adjust.  

 [Talking overlaps] 

So, she kind of came to life in a funny way when we would get into– back into the city because that’s what she was familiar with. The idea that she would go get food from different vendors, um, and shops. Um, that sort of thing. So she, it really was interesting to go into the city because we really were in some ways allowed to kind of be “city kids” when we were in those places as we grew up. You know, when we were older, um, we could go down to the corner store or to the candy store, or, you know, our parents would send us on little errands to pick up something for dinner or whatever. Um, yes. So, yeah. 

What made your parents move out of the city before you were born? 

My dad, I think, really wanted land. He really wanted his kids to have a place to run and roam and explore. Um, I’m not sure why he wanted that [laughs], I never asked him! Um, my dad died when I was about twenty–four years old and I never really had the wherewithal because I was busy going to college, graduate school, to really ask him a lot of questions about why he made choices that he did.

Right. 

I really got to ask my mom those questions ‘cause she lived a very long life. But, um, her– I got to ask her questions but it seemed that, for him, or it was my dad who wanted us to have this space. 

Right. What did he do?

 My dad was a truck driver. Um, he did, uh, he was a teamster and he did short-haul trucking. So, he came home every night. You know, he did not do long distance, so–

Right. And– and did your mother work?  

Uh, initially, she did not work. Um– she– had worked in New York. She was actually a seamstress, she had trained and went to a professional high school in New York to become a seamstress and so, she was always employed in New York, and she actually worked even after my brother was born. My grandparents took care of my brother 'cause they were living– my parents were living in an apartment in my grandparents – the upstairs of my grandparents’ house. Uh, they, when they moved, she did not work until my sister was about four or five years old. And then for a while she was a lunch lady. She worked at a, you know, in the school system in the cafeteria and then um, she eventually took a job in a chemical factory not far from our house. 

Mhmm.  

Because she could make more money, and she wanted to make more money 'cause they needed the money at that point. 

Right. So she did work most of her life, then. 

She did. Even when she retired from her chemical factory job, she then came, and I was working for a nonprofit organization at one point and she came and worked for the nonprofit. And she worked into her 80s. 

Wow. 

And she loved that. That’s like, if you were to ask her what her job was, um, that’s what she would tell you, that she was an office assistant. She’s always very proud of the fact that she could be an office assistant because her father didn’t let her be anything other than a seamstress. 

00:07:12

Right. Do you think your parents, um, helped you kind of be on the path that you ended up being on? What do you think their influence was on that? 

Oh, I definitely think I was influenced. My parents were always very supportive. My mother having– well both my parents had kind of a strange history with their families in terms of choice of occupation. Um, so my dad, um, was living in New York City when he was young, and in New York City you could pick, back then, you could pick the school based on, sort of, the field that you wanted to go into in high school. And he wanted to go into aeronautics and his parents literally thought that was for the birds [laughs] and they wouldn’t let him do it, and that was one of the reasons they moved to Brooklyn. Or his mother and his aunt didn’t think it was, you know, a good occupation and so they– and he left home when he was in 10th grade because he was angry at his parents, or his mother and aunt. And so, um, he eventually ended up being a truck driver and, you know, he was always sort of not happy that he had– that that had been his profession, became his profession. Um, and my mom, her father, he was just an old– you know, my grandparents, my mother’s parents both came from one town in Sicily and um–

Your mother’s parents? 

Yeah, they knew each other in Sicily and they came over from– both of the sides of my family came from Italy, and my father’s family was from around Genoa and my mother’s family was from this little town, Mussomeli, in Sicily. And they, um, my grandfather believed that his daughters could only be seamstresses because that’s what their mother and grandmother had been [laughing] and so, he would not let them do anything but go to the particular high school. It was the public high school, but it was the high school for becoming a seamstress and both my mother and her sister were trained as seamstresses. My aunt, um, where they lived in New Jersey, she was able to get– she became part of the [unclear] Trade Union, and she was able to get– I’m sorry, my phone just received a scam call. Um, so she was able to work as a seamstress where she lived, in the area where she lived. Where we lived, there were no, um, places that made clothing. Um, so my mom really wanted to be an office assistant or something else, but her father wouldn’t let her. He just, he was not– he had very derogatory names about women who did those sorts of occupations [laughs]. 

00:10:25

Right. Did you grow up speaking Italian at home? 

My parents, yes, both spoke Italian but they did not speak it to us. Um, they were afraid that we would get stigmatized about being part of a mafia. 

Right.  

Um, it was a different kind of thing. And so they were very careful when we were growing up– they spoke it to each other and to my grandparents, but they did not speak it to us. 

Right. And when you were brought up, what were your impressions of the town where you grew up? How did you relate it? 

Well, Piscataway doesn’t have a town, believe or not. It doesn’t have a central area, it’s kind of spread out. It’s, uh, so were in the what had been– well, we had been told were sort of hunting grounds– 

Mhmm

You know, for somebody. And they, back then, they used to not clear all the trees. And so we had an acre, a little over an acre of property on this very, um, nice piece of property that was full of trees. We were on a corner where there was a dead end. Um, I mean, I loved living there as a kid because we were free to do things– The community pool was a block, a little over a block away, and we would walk through the woods. There was a wooded area and we would take the path through the woods as kids to the– 'cause it was shorter. [Laughs] You know, and we just, I mean, I felt very fortunate to have the childhood I had in terms of being outdoors a lot. I mean, I know, we didn’t have– we actually had a television but it was a black– a small black and white television and it was only allowed to be on at certain times of the day, and it wasn’t something you watched all the time. Um, and so outside was our playground, you know. It was our, um– and you know, all the neighbors knew each other and there were a lot of kids my age, and my sisters and brothers ages in the neighborhood and, you know, you ride your bike and you did a lot of different things that were just easy to do. 

Yeah. 

And um, and you know, it gave me an appreciation for the outdoors and um– So, I understood from my mother that, you know, the nearest town was– So, we related to Bound Brook, because Bound Brook was closer to us than anything else. 

Mhmmm. 

Um, and we would um– go into Bound Brook and my father, for a while, tried to have a business in Bound Brook. Um–

Tried to have a what, sorry? 

A business.   

Oh.  

He was trying to stop being a truck driver and he started a little lawn mower repair business.  

Mmmm.  

But, you know, because he only did it on the weekends and out of our garage at night, um, he really couldn’t make it fly.      

Right. Yeah. 

So he continued to be a truck driver [laughs].

Right. Yeah. And what was your experience like when you were in grade school?  

Umm, well I started out grade school– I had a weird history with grade school. I was young when I started school because I went to Catholic school to begin with. 

Mhmm. 

Um, my parents– or my father had promised his mother that he would raise his children Catholic. 

Mhmm. 

And so, we went to a Catholic school and um– 

00:14:39

Like, a private, a private school?  

Yeah, a Catholic– private Catholic school. It was in Bound Brook, actually. Uh, it’s still there. And, um, we– I went there until I was in fourth grade, and in fourth grade, they wanted– they had built a pub–They had built a private school in Piscataway at our church that we attended, but it only had a couple grades in it, and they wanted my mother to send my sister to that school and my brother and I would stay in Bound Brook, until the school built up, and had, you know, developed older grades. But my mother, it was going to cost her a lot more money. It was cheap to have three kids in one school, cheaper [than having all of the] kids split because you’re gonna have to pay the extra bus fees and whatever other fees there were. And so, she decided to put us in public school. And um, so I went to– so, the Catholic schools were– well, we actually started Catholic school in New Brunswick and it was a horrible school for me, personally, and I ended up leaving it in the middle of my kindergarten year, and I truly think the school I was in Bound Brook because that was the school that I spent three and half years in. Um, or maybe four years, but I ended up going to a school that was halfway across from Piscataway, so I was used to the bus. So in Piscataway, you know, we’d bus everywhere. I mean, we had a bus in Bound Brook but it was much shorter, it was only a couple miles away as opposed to probably, I don’t know, six or eight miles from our house to the other school? So it was different, and I got caught between, uh, the kind of teaching for math. It was different in Catholic School, so in Catholic school, the nuns taught this really old version of math [laughing]. 

Okay.

 And then, it took me a very long– I mean, my entire, I– I would say, my entire primary and secondary school career, I was really just always behind in math. I went to summer school one year, I– I just didn’t understand it because I’d get the answers right, but I’d get marked off for not doing it right. 

Right. 

And– 

Because of the initial, um, education–

Yeah, and that actually, eventually, I was able to change that but it took me a long time. 

Right. 

[Laughing] I had to decide that math wasn’t the enemy! 

Right. 

I was really good at reading and writing. I’m a very good– I’m a very fast reader and I have very high comprehension when I read. Um, I was way ahead in reading and writing and, you know, things like that. But in math I really struggled. 

Was– was being good in school something that was important to you or do you think it’s something that your parents really enforced, or–   

My parents wanted us to do well in school, but they, um, because of their– well, my mother always never felt like she had the muster. She, um, always would say that she didn’t– you know, 'cause things were so different from the time that she was in school to the time that we were in school, she couldn’t help us with homework. 

00:18:18

Right. 

And it made it worse for her and it made her feel bad. Um, my dad was actually really really smart, and a very good reader. I’m sure I got my reading skills from him. He was an incredible reader, um, and– he–   

Did he read a lot for pleasure? 

 Eh, after– well, after he was forced to retire after he got sick, he read a lot then. More than he read when we were growing up. When we were growing up, he was working a lot, he worked long hours during the week–

Mhm–

As a truck driver, and on the weekends he was working in his lawn mower repair shop, so it was, like, he wasn’t around a lot as a kid. I mean, you know, he was around, but he, he was in the house, but he wasn’t, like– we were probably closer to our mom–

Right–

In some ways, like, you know. Um, and, but they both– they were very supportive and wanted us to do well. Um, and they wanted us to do better than they had done. You know, my mother had always wanted us all to go to college and that kind of thing, because she figured you could have the profession you wanted.   

Right. So that, that is something you felt as well, I suppose.  

Yeah. Now, I had extended family members at different [unclear] that were not afraid to, uh, tell them– 

Like what? They just didn’t want you to go to college? 

Well, like my aunt, my father’s sister, was a very opinionated woman, she had never married, and she, um, she saw herself as the matriarch of that side of the family and– she– because her mom had died, they, my grandmother died young. Very young, in her forties– um, and my aunt sort of– and she was my godmother. So in the church back then, the godparents had a lot of say– 

Mmm– 

Or tried that. At least in Italian families, they had a lot of say about, you know, the children. So, she felt like her opinion was– and I, I actually didn’t learn some of this until after I got out of college– but my mother fought with her a lot because she wanted me to quit college, um–

Mmm–

She put my brother through college. 

Mmm. 

It’s kind of a long story, but she wanted, at some point– she did not see any reason that a girl needed to go to college, but the boy needed to go to college. So I needed to quit my, you know, my education and go to, um, work so I could support [laughing] his college.  

Did he end up going to college or, or no?  

He was in college. He went to a private college, um–

Mhmm–

And he ended up dropping out, um, and eventually– he worked for a while. He thought he would leave college for a year to work, he actually worked where my mom worked, had been working in the chemical factory–

00:21:42

Mhmm–

He thought he would work and earn enough money to go back to college and pay for it without taking out a lot of school loans. But he, um, ended up not liking the job very much, and he ended up in the Coast Guard and enjoying the Coast Guard. So he was, he actually spent his entire first career in the Coast Guard. So he, you know, retired from the Coast Guard–

Mhmm

And I’m actually very proud of him. All the years he was in the Coast Guard, he was piecing together his education 'cause they moved every three years and he would take college classes. And I think about two or three years ago, he finally got his Bachelor’s Degree, I was so proud of him. Um–

Oh wow! 

Yeah. 

In what, what did he get it in, his degree? 

Um, marine science. 

Mmm. 

That’s what he wanted, was marine science. And when I– when he was going– you know, we went to college in the 70s, my brother and I, and when we were in college, Rutgers did not have a marine science division. He– every time he– I live very close to the Cook Douglass campus, and every time he would visit and drive by the marine science building, he’d be so obsessed! “Why didn’t they have that program when I was going to school?!” 

Right. And di– where did you get your undergrad? 

I went to Douglass College, so it’s part of Rutgers, but at the time it was a separate col– it was part of Rutgers then, but it was a separate college. It had its own faculty, it was all women. Um–

Oh, it was all women?   

Yeah, it was an all women’s school. 

Mhm! 

And um–

[Interjection]

Anyway, I came to– I lived, literally, right on the edge of the Cook Douglass campus [laughs]. It was funny that I owned a home right on the edge of the Cook Douglass campus, the dorms are no longer there, they took them down 'cause they were really old and they had let them go, but I was literally looking across the street at the dorms I lived in when I was in college! [Laughing]   

Right. 

It was funny. 

00:23:59

Yeah. Were you living at home when you were in college? 

I lived at home for one year, and then I moved onto campus next– I didn’t, I wanted the college experience. I found it very hard to study, um, at home. Um–

Right–

Because I would get distracted by things my parents wanted or needed or whatever and–

Right

So I found it– Back when I went to school, Rutgers was very inexpensive, relatively speaking. My parents paid for my tuition, which was something like $250 a semester. Right.  And they would give me about $100 a year for books, and I had to cover– they told me if I was gonna live on campus, I had to pay for it myself. So I did. I worked my way through college, I would spend the summers working, um, I had become a fairly good typist and I would do data entries for different companies. I worked with a bunch of different companies around, um, and I did work all summer. Sometimes I’d work two jobs and then I– during the school year, I worked on campus, um– for the, um– Department of State Science and for the Dean of Cook College, um–

Hmm. As an assistant?  

Yeah, just as an office assistant. I, um, I was cur– I was always very curious about technology and these are, like, ancient, but they had what they called mag typewriters which were typewriters that we connected to a magnetic– Like, it was almost like a floppy disk, but it was on a– it wasn’t quite as, uh, protected [laughing] as a floppy disk! And we would put it into– so you could, um, you could save work– It wasn’t easy to change it, but you could at least save work, eh, in a way that you wouldn’t have been previously able to do. You know, you could type it–

Right–

And then if somebody wanted to make a change you had to retype the paper. You know, like, or you had to retype a section of it, or whatever, so– it, they had gotten these mag card machines all over the campus and I was able to use them so they liked me [laughs]. 

Right, yeah. And then what were you getting your degree in? 

Well, I actually started to get my degree in German but I ended up, um, quite by serendipity, discovering that I had much more– I had screwed up my exam schedule and I thought I had a German exam sort of later in the– no, earlier in the week– and my art history exam was in later in the week and I had screwed them up, I had mixed them up, and so I had take the, um, art history museum cold, and I, I had a lot more time to study for the German, and I got an A on my art history exam and a C on German! [Laughing] And I–

Was that the entry exam? 

That was– these were final exams, and I just, yeah, I just, I realized I had much more aptitude and interest in art history– Mmm– and so I went into art history and, um, got my first– my undergraduate degree was in art history. 

Mmmm. Why did you initially want to study German? 

I thought I wanted to be a translator. 

00:27:57

Mmm. 

Um, I don’t know why I picked German but I did. Our school didn’t have, um, it had French and German when I went to high school. It only had French and German and I had taken German. Mhmm. Um– and– I just didn’t really love it. I don’t know wh– I just never really, I didn’t, um, love it. Ironically, I needed it for art history. We, back then, we used to have to pass two language exams in order to, um, go in for a Masters degree. 

Two different languages?  

Yeah. Two different languages, yeah. So I did French and German. 

Mmm. But you, but you sort of didn’t really like German that much? 

No. 

No. 

I think it was the way they taught it– they taught it alot from literature and German literature is very, um, painful to me [laughs]. 

[Laughing] How come? 

It’s often, um, very, at least the literature they were– you know, Kafka– they were using things that were really not, like, something that resonated with me and I–

Yeah. Not very fun. 

Yeah, not fun! And art history was– I– I– I love art in general and, and I, actually, art history, actually part of art history requirements were to take art classes so I loved that. I mean, I just loved the whole, my major was suddenly fun, you know. And I was–

Did you like to paint? 

I liked to paint. I liked to, um, I think of myself as a dabbler in terms of, I mean I have settled into certain things over time. I would’ve loved to do ceramics, I loved the feel of the clay in my hands and I did a lot of– I– I was good at building with clay but I wasn’t as good at using the wheel. And, um, but, you know, back then, the wheels were all, um– [laughing] I sound so old! Back when the wheels were not electrified, at least at Douglass they weren’t electrified, most of them were you had to push with your feet, and I just wasn’t very good at it. 

Right. 

I just, I couldn’t get the speed right. I think it would be different– maybe it would be different? I’ve never tried, actually. I was thinking, mmm, soon I would be, like, thinking about taking a class again in clay, you know, but right now I can’t, but–

Right–

Yeah. 

Now was there a specific period of art history that were interested in– when you were studying? 

Um, I was very interested in women artists. So when I was in school, they were just beginning to start talking about women artists and they were just starting to, um, actually, um– be– find– they were creating a history of women artists and they were beginning to understand that some women had changed their names to be male names in order to get respected and so, it’s kind of an interesting time and I loved learning about that. I mean, I just found it so fascinating. Um, that all these women had been artists, you know, 'cause, like you kind of, you know, when you learn about art history initially, it’s all men in the Renaissance and men, you know, and it’s– women were subjects and this history started to come out that were many women artists. They just were–

00:31:52

Right

Never brought forward, or they changed their name. Um–

Mhmm. 

Not unlike the people who wrote literature, you know, who had to write under pen names. So you know, I really, you know, really really enjoyed it. And um, and it was enlightening but it was hard to get a job after as an undergraduate in art history–

Right. Wha– what was your experience of, of doing undergrad when you did, like in the 70s? Wha– I don’t know, what was it like? 

Well, Douglass was interesting because it was very radically feminist–

Mhmm–

And um– there were a lot of interesting classes. I took a class on, um, feminist literature with a man and a woman, who taught it. Mmm. And you know, he was sort of a– antagonist, I guess you would call him. But it was just an interesting time, and so I took a lot of women’s studies. I– I didn’t really wanna spend the extra time that I might’ve had to spend at college to get my Women's Studies certificate because it, they offered it, like, I think they started offering it my junior year and I couldn’t get enough credits for it, but I would’ve been also a Women's Studies minor because I really liked that as well. I was really fascinated about how history had not portrayed women and had portray– and you know, all the ways women were being portrayed and not portrayed in, um, literature, and I just found the time fascinating and because I had, um– Douglass always had a large, uh, group of women, or not super large– But a group of women who had raised their families and then went to college.

Mhmm. 

And– um, so these women were probably in their forties? You know? 

Mhmm. 

So it brought in a really interesting perspective in the classes, um–

Mhmm. 

So I really, I mean, I really liked college. Um, at least the parts that were, um, you know, interesting to me. I wasn’t thrilled about the requirements of having to take math and science that I never thought I would need [laughing].

Right, Yeahhh. Right.  

Yeah. And I ended up, ironically using everything over the years, because I have all these different degrees now. 

Yeah! I, uh, sorry, go on. 

That was all! 

00:34:52

Oh, sorry. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about, how did you sort of transition into doing more, like, health education and public health? 

Yeah, so my first Master’s degree was in art history and I actually work as an assistant curator of photography. I became very interested in photograph– history of photography. And I had the great privilege of working with someone, uh, named Peter Bunnell who was at Princeton University. And Rutger’s– at the time I was at Rutgers, and Rutgers had an agreement that you could take courses down at Princeton– and I, um, I took his photo history course and he had such an enthusiasm for the medium that I decided to go into photo history myself and I– ended up working for him as his assistant curator of photography for a few years. Um, I moved because my husband and I decided to move. My husband was taking a job in DC, and so I had to move. 

While you were doing your Master’s or after? 

No, after. I was working already in the art museum and I was, you know, there and I– I left that job because we had made the decision to move. I was sort of interested in getting out of New Jersey [laughing]– Right– for a while. And I ended up, um, I couldn’t find work in the DC area in art, art history. And It’s very hard to find jobs down there because nobody leaves those museum jobs– of course– probably because they’re all federal jobs and they’re pretty nice! [Laughing]

Yeah. 

And so, I ended up taking a job, um, uh– I’ve always been very organized and capable of administrative stuff, and I had done all this stuff in college, you know, for jobs, doing– working in offices and stuff, so I took this job as an associate director of a not-for-profit organization that was focused on environmental health. 

Mhmm. 

And I–

What organization was it? 

It was called Environmental Research Foundation, it was a small organization. It was in existence probably– twenty five years or so? Um, and it, um, provided technical– it, it– we translated technical information about environmental stuff, mostly on toxics for grassroots groups. So I had the great fortune of being able to work with grassroots groups around the country. Um, and um, just really getting to see a whole different world. So these are people who, you know, their communities could’ve been contaminated, um, their communities, could, um, have some kind of polluting facility or there could’ve been an old facility that hadn’t been, you know, properly cleaned up, I mean, that was pretty common. 

Mhmm. 

Um, and– uh, so I did that– for quite a while, actually. And I, while I was doing it, one of the things I was interested in is how do we– when we say no to all these facilities, right? When they’re trying to propose a new chemical factory. What are we offering and replacing? So, for some reason, I thought an MBA would help me with that! [Laughing] 

To understand the more– business side of it, I guess. 

Yeah, and so I went, um, I got an MBA while I was working. I worked, I went into a program that was every Saturday for two years. 

00:39:00

Mhmm. 

But as I did this– I, um, well I have a very– so, working with all these groups around the country, one of the things– and we never went into any community that didn’t ask for our help. We did not, like, helicopter in anywhere, we did not, you know, so– We only worked with communities that reached out to us. 

Mhmm. 

And they learned about us. We had published newsletters and we did all that kind of stuff, so people knew about us. And, um– we ended up, umm– well, I ended up– because my husband could no longer get health insurance because he had aged out. Um, he’s older than I am. Um, when we moved back to New Jersey, I decided I needed to get a different job because we couldn’t, we needed health insurance that he could have. 

You ended up moving back to New Jersey after DC? 

Yeah, so we moved– we were living in DC, and then we moved to Annapolis, Maryland. 

Mhmm. 

Just because it was a nicer, easier place to live. And my mom actually moved there. She had, um, after my dad died, she moved. She was living in Metuchen in an apartment and she moved to Hawaii for a year, with my brother and his family to help with his kids while he would go away for three months at a time in the Coast Guard. 

Right. 

And so when she came back, we said “Look, Mom, you can live anywhere you want, as long as it’s near one of us.” 

Mhmm. 

So she had a choice of me, my brother going to Maine next, New Jersey, where my sister was never going to probably leave, and or Maryland where I was living. And she chose Maryland, actually. She lived in Maryland. Uh, my husband got–

She lived with you? 

No, she lived, uh, in her own apartment. She, um, she had her– she had her– she loved Maryland. She actually blossomed. Because Annapolis was the closest thing she’d ever get to New York City! [laughing] 

Right, yeah! 

She could walk to stores, and there was a water taxi, and she would take the water taxi into downtown Annapolis and then just walk through town, you know? And she loved that! 

Mhmm. 

I mean, she just really loved it. Like, she was– um, there was a bus system, she used the buses. You know, she finally had found a place where she could really be– what she was growing up. You know, in New York City. Being able to access things. 

A city girl.  

Yeah, a city girl. I mean, it wasn’t, Annapolis isn’t a huge city but it was metropolitan and urban enough, you know. And, and, um– She, um, lived, within a mile of us? 

Mhmm. 

Um, and we– um, she got– my husband got sick. 

Mhmm. 

He had been diagnosed with cancer. And she got sick, and I couldn’t take care of her because he was too– his immune system was compromised, and she had pneumonia.

Ohhh. And um–

00:42:34

How old were you at this time? 

How old was I– Mmmm– I was probably in my mid-forties at this point? 

Okay. Yeah. 

And– she–

so anyways, my sister came down from New Jersey for a weekend to try and help my mom, and it was kind of a mess, and my husband and I got talking, and we decided– I, you know, we needed to get back to New Jersey to have my sister nearby. 

Mhmm. 

So we moved back here. At that point, a lot of the nonprofit world had started to develop, sort of, where people were working out of homes and not working, you know, were more virtual. Um, [unclear] so, when I got back to New Jersey, I started looking for a job and I just ended up– because we had lived in New Brunswick, we chose– my husband always liked to be near college towns, so we chose to live in New Brunswick. And, um, I, you know, was applying to jobs at Rutgers and I was also working in the community. At that point I had started working in New Brunswick, and– and, like– getting involved in the community. I had been very involved in Annapolis in a little museum called the Barge House Museum. 

Mhmm. 

And I just really liked being– and my parents really kind of instilled that in all three of us, about volunteering and giving back and being part of your community, and uh–

Mhmm. 

So when I first came back, I was starting to throw myself into it, and that’s when I got into the community garden, and, um, and through that, all those connections, I found this job at what was then, well Robert Wood Jo– well, it was always Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, but it was part of UNVNJ at the time. Um, and it was based on my administrative skills and my MBA, and had nothing to do with any of my other background [laughing]. 

Right, right. 

Mhmm.

Yeah. And so, what did that job entail? When you started working there? 

Oh, I was the coordinator for the Family Medicine Residency. When they start, after they graduate, after medical school– students go to medical school, they have to choose a speciality and go into a residency or get into a residency. And um, for family medicine, it’s a three year residency and, um, so I was the coordinator, the administrator of that residency. 

Okay. And how long were you there, are you still there now? 

Um, I’m still part of the medical school, yeah. I’m still part of the department. So the department has expanded to community health, um– so it’s family medicine and community health in our department. And, um, community was always my passion– and I eventually worked my way back into that. It took me about ten years! 

00:46:04

Right. 

I worked for about five years as the administrator for the residency, then I did about five years as the administrator for our research division. We have, uh, our department has a research division and– um, and then I went back– and I got into community health at the medical school so, um– at our medical school, community health is one of the four missions, so there’s clinical, education, research, and community health. 

Okay. 

So, I, uh, but I do all sort of– I’m focused on the New Brunswick community, for the most part. 

Mhmm. 

I do a lot of– ironically, a lot of what I used to do, sort of in some ways, with Environmental Research Foundation and I’ve been able to, kind of, translate into what I do in New Brunswick. 

Right. What is the position exactly that you hold? 

I am now the Assistant Professor of Family Medicine and Community Health, so when I was in the residency, I was teaching practice management–

Mhmm–

Because of my MBA and my background, and, um, they put me on faculty and they’ve kept me on faculty since then. So my faculty position, um, I do a combination of education and research. Besides doing the outreach work for the medical school in the community, I also do, um, I train medical students, mostly now on community health as a lecturer to them, or I’ll help them with projects, or– and then I participate in research projects with, um, other researchers on– mostly what I would call, these are patient-engaged or community-based participatory research. 

Okay. How does community health relate to public health, would you say? 

It’s different. Public health is much more, um, well, public health can occur on many levels–

Mhmm–

But it’s often very focused on one area or another, so, um, I mean, I think we’ve seen in COVID that that isn’t as great a project [laughs]. 

Right! 

But, you know, so there are people in public health who are focused on making sure restaurants and food purveyors have all the right hygiene and food safety kind of things. 

Mhmm. 

But that stuff is separate from other behavioral health that might be worried about, uh, individual behaviors. 

Mhmm. 

Community health is really focused around a community, and you can define a community geographically, and as small as a neighborhood or you can define a community based on common, um, you know, uh, characteristics. 

00:49:22

Mhmm. 

Could be racial characteristics, could be gender identity characteristics, could be um–

Mhmm. 

Poverty, socioeconomic characteristics, education, so you know– people can define. So, and you’re focused on all– community health is much more focused on all pieces of that, right? So it’s not just one thing or another, it’s like seeing, um– so what we do for clination is bring in the idea that people, um, are really much more a reflection of their, of their social determinants, as they call it. You know, things like poverty, things like education level, things like how many adverse childhood experiences they’ve had–

Mhmm 

All of those things are to add up and either make someone be less healthy or unable to get healthier. 

Mhmm. 

You know, when they are– so, community health has a much, sort of, broader view in some ways but in a narrower framing. 

Mmm mhmm. 

You know, so–

What– Yeah, go, sorry. 

Oh, I was just, you know, so I focus on New Brunswick and I don’t get sidetracked. Like, that’s my focus. 

Yeah.

 I’m happy to talk to other people about other things but I don’t assume I know anything about them! [Laughs] Their community, because I don’t. I know more about New Brunswick. 

Um, what are some examples of, like, the projects that your students have been involved in, or that you’re involved in in terms of community health in New Brunswick? 

So, the medical school actually has a long history with the community, and, um, the school co- runs the federally qualified health center– um, with the community board. There’s a community board– every qualified health center has a community board, very few are actually based out of academic centers, but, um– [unclear]

Mhmm. 

And um, our medical students do a lot with that. 

Mhmm. 

Um, with that– so, like, right now they’re participating in helping, uh, with COVID vaccinations in the community. They’re, uh, um, since people have had to isolate, there’s a project, uh, I have a colleague that runs a lot of what we call Service Learning Programs and she, um, works with the students most directly, but I work with her too. Helping her think about projects and, um, evaluating them, and, you know, doing, sort of, the other side of it. Um, and– she, but, um, they are calling seniors in the community to talk to help them through the isolation. They’re, you know, they’re, we um run a– um– the medical students run a clinic– Uhh, for the homeless population. 

Mhmm. 

It’s supervised, of course, by faculty but it’s a– a– the students are seeing doctors who work with the homeless population and they come– they use the federally qualified health center facility for that clinic and it’s, you know, one night a week, and that kind of thing. Um– and they have many projects that they do, they give health workshops, they– um– they do these events, they’ll do what they call Teddy Bear Checkouts with kids– um, they do a checkup on a teddy bear with a child. 

00:53:30

Mhmm. 

So the children become more comfortable with doctors in white coats. 

Mhmm. 

Right. So there’s all kinds of things that we do with the med students to kind of give them a sense of the community and um–

Mhmm–

And a sense of working with the community. And all the students have at least a requirement in the community that they have to do in their early years. 

Right. 

It’s been a little more challenging during COVID, because, um, we have to do everything virtually. 

Right. Are there, kind of, like, specific, like, academic frameworks that go in– I don’t know, I’m assuming it’s, kind of like, intertwined with, like, sociology– or, like, are there certain– 

Oh yeah!

Other frameworks that– 

Yeah, there are lots of frameworks. So a lot of the frameworks that I learned about– I was, I focused on, um, when I was getting my Master’s in Public Health, I was focused on, um– health education and what– behavioral health. They combined those two together. And, um, many of the frameworks that you use for behavioral health are the frameworks that get used. Um, you know, there are various theories of subtle change.

Mhmm. 

Like you– ah, ah– social– a people’s ability to make behavior change are very similar to a lot of the social change. Theories that are very interlocking. And as a matter of fact, I think– I’m pretty sure I’m correct about this– the woman who runs our research division now, who is– I mean, she’s the actual faculty division director– she, um, is a sociologist by training. 

Mhmm. 

The man I worked for, when I was the research administrator, he was a medical anthropologist. 

Okay.

So his, you know, his– his background is, uh, anthropology. 

Right. Um, and the Healthier New Brunswick project that you’re involved with, is it– does it kind of encompass sort of what you were talking about earlier, or is that, like, a separate initiative? 

So it is what I do for New Brunswick– so, Healthier New Brunswick is co-led by the medical school–

Mhmm– 

Um, uh– a non–profit, New Brunswick Tomorrow, the city of New Brunswick, and Johnson & Johnson. Um–

00:56:02

Mhmm.

And it has traditional– it is about twenty years old, and it has been led by those groups over time. But the two primary leaders are the medical school and New Brunswick Tomorrow, and I– so I co-lead with somebody at New Brunswick Tomorrow, um, Healthier New Brunswick. So we’ve been, since COVID started, we started out having weekly WebEx Strap-Ins for community partners– ummm, and then we went to every other week, and eventually we’ve gone to every month. But we are still doing– so that’s just a project we added on [laughs]. 

Okay. 

Because COVID happened, and so, through that effort, we have managed to do a lot of things to help the community around covid. 

Right. 

So, we advocated for a testing site, and for a long time we had a testing site in New Brunswick where people could walk up to it, rather than one of the drive-through sites and the county was– and the county was running that. Um, there is a testing site still in New Brunswick, or was– I’m not sure if it’s running right now, but the city was running it at that point. 

Mhmm. 

And then, um, other things we’ve done is– we’ve done a lot about handing out personal protective equipment for people. Giving them masks, giving them hand sanitizer, um– there’s groups working with the businesses doing that, the small businesses throughout the community. Um, we have, you know, developed, um, posters– we got permission from Rutgers to use one of the posters–

Mhmm

That we’re putting in throughout the community to try and help people, you know, remind people to wear masks, socially distance, wash their hands, you know, all those things. Um, and we discuss a lot about food security because food insecurity have gone wayyy up in the city [laughs]. 

Mmm. Because of COVID?

 Yeah, because of COVID, people have lost their jobs. So, like, Elijah’s Promise publishes how many meals they served this time last year, and how many they’re serving and it’s more– even double– same time, you know, um, this year. 

Mhmm. 

Umm. 

Wow. 

Yeah, so we advocate, and then the thing I focus on, when I’m not working on COVID is behavioral health. I work a lot– so I helped, um, I work– I worked with two hospitals, two hospitals have a project– Saint Peters and Robert Wood Johnson University Hospitals– both have, um, a joint– they have a joint community project that they do together called Healthier Middlesex and I work with them on behavioral health, and we published a large resource guide on behavior health for community partners. I focus on community partners, where New Brunswick Tomorrow focuses on the community residents. So, the medical school focuses on trying to help the partners, and then, with the behavioral health, I work with the partners and the partners wanted a resource guide, so we created a resource guide. We created smaller guides. Um, we provide Mental Health First Aid training– you know, we find ways to train the community partners because they are the ones who end up interacting with the community members when they’re in– [unclear]

00:59:54

Who are, who are the community partners? 

So they are, um, a lot of the social service agencies, like Elijah’s Promise, which has– which is the community soup kitchen that has a social service outreach component–

Mhmm–

Because they work with the homeless. Uh, the Puerto Rican Action Board, which provides a whole variety of social services, uh, throughout the city. Um, the Raritan Valley YMCA, I mean, there’s just a whole–

Right

Group of partners. Um–

And it’s mainly, like, nonprofits that they’re– right? 

Yeah, it’s nonprofits, but we have worked hard to get the county government involved. The city government, um, a little harder to get involved but we do work with them. 

Right. 

The school district, um, you know, so we try to get all the different sectors around the table so that we can, um, work together. So, you know, the county’s been really important during COVID, because that is how the funds are flowing. [Laughs] You know? 

Yeah, right. 

Um, and the county has really stepped up, even around vaccinations. The county has had to step up around where the state registration and, um, uh, scheduling system hasn’t worked, the county is stepping up. 

Right, right. Public responsibility–

Yeah, so, you know, we really work closely with both. And then, other academic partners across Rutgers, you know–

Right

Nutritional scientists, for example. Or, um, because we all– we, you know, again, because of this community health view, you have a view to kind of say, “Okay, who will be most helpful in all of these things?” 

Right. So would you say that there’s not a lot of state funding? Is it, does it really not kind of interact with public fund–

[Unclear] So, for me, there isn't state funding, but, um, I think for a lot of the agencies, there is state funding. 

Like the partners? 

Yeah, some of the partners have state funding. So, like, I’m pretty sure, I know that, um, PRAB gets state funding because they’re one of the– what are they called? Um, family success centers for Middlesex County. There are two– they divided Middlesex County into east and west and they take care of one part of it, and the Jewish Renaissance Foundation takes care of the other part of it. And so– and they provide, um, lots of services and that money comes from the state. Um, there’s money, um, the state that comes to New Jersey Family Health Consortium for maternal and child health. 

1:02:51

Mhmm. 

So, you know, there are state funds but they tend– I mean, I never compete with my partners for money. I try not to–

Right–

Compete with my partners for money. 

Right, right. 

So–

So it’s like there isn’t enough funding–

Well, I also think it’s very important that the funding go to where it’s closest to the grassroots, right? And the medical school is not as– well, I mean, you know,  it is, in a funny way, very close to the grassroots because the, [laughing] the medical care.

Right. 

But, um, at every level, but it just, it’s not the same, as, like, a social service agency where you can go and get food, or you can go and get, um, rental assistance, or you can go, and– you know– we’re not in that, it’s not our role. 

Right, right. 

And so, yeah, so, I’d rather see a nonprofit funded to do that work, because– 

Right

That’s really appropriate, that’s really a place for that work to occur. 

And, like, behavioral health, so– just to kind of, like, define it– you would say that it’s, like, like, how you can educate individuals on how to– they can, like, take better measures in order for, like, community health to improve? Or, or how would you define–? Well, for me, it’s about helping the partners with their needs around behavioral health. So the partners have been, like they, um– started to talk about this maybe five years ago, where they were saying that people were coming in in crisis, into their facilities, and they didn’t necessarily feel like their staff knew how to handle it. 

Mhmm. What kinds of crisis? 

Um, some people, suicide-type crisis, but some people– just really depressed, really distraught, um, you know, there are all kinds of ways that people, um– sometimes drugs, sometimes substance use issues. Um, and– they didn’t know how to handle it, and sometimes they would just call the cops–

Right– 

and when the cops get called, there’s a certain kind of protocol that has to occur– um– it’s not always the thing that people want to see happen. 

1:05:33

Yeah, isn’t helpful. 

Yeah, that isn’t necessarily the right approach. So, but they, you know, honestly said– the providers, the social service providers would say, you know, “I don’t know where to send somebody,” or “I don’t know who to call,” or “I don’t know how to do this,” or, you know, “I don’t even know what I’m looking at–” “It’s just scary, and it doesn’t look very good!”

Yeah. 

And, “I’m afraid for my life, and I’ve got children here, and we are afraid for the kids” And then, all of those things.

Mmm. 

So, we just made– you know, we just kind of decided– okay, we’re just going to break this into two pieces. One is, we’re gonna provide you with an ability to find the resources and the other is, we’re going to provide you the ability for you to be able to recognize and refer. So that’s where Mental Health First Aid training came in. That is a national, um, kind of, um– it’s a national program, and–

Mhmm–

People who do it are trained to do it, and, um, it’s a long eight da– eight hour training, and people go through it, and it allows them to kind of recognize for certain conditions and refer out. Um, and just have a– talk first to somebody when they’re in that kind of crisis, or if you know how– how to approach someon– like, I just did the whole First Aid training, I just actually took it myself for youth. Um, for adults who, you know, care about youth. And I never knew how to, for example, how to approach a young person if I saw they had marks on them indicating that they were cutting themselves regularly. 

Right. 

You know, it’s that kind of thing. So how to approach someone, and how to help them get referrals. And so this behavioral health referral and resource guide, which we developed with the community, um, has multiple sections. It has simple definitions, it has different conditions, because some people don’t even know what it means when a parent comes into their service agency and says “I got this letter from school, and it says my kid has oppositional defiant disorder. What is that?” You know? So it’s– words that get put into the document, you know, legal– what feel like legal documents, which they are actually, you know, um, from a school system and– the social service provider has no real idea what this is. Um– so, anyways, that’s kind of what that publication is, and we train people to use that publication, and how to use it. But there are specific needs–

And what was the process of developing that document with the community? What did that entail? 

So we held meetings pretty regularly, um, we would talk to them about what they wanted. And then, my colleague and I would mock something up, and we would bring it back and then– they would give input. And as it developed, um– you know, they said, “We need– we want to have a section on things that don’t cost people anything and is fairly easy to get into,” so that includes things like support groups and–

Right–

Hotlines, and things like that, and organizations that provide support– as opposed to actual counseling and treatment centers. And so when they saw the entries for the counseling and treatment centers, they said, “Oh, wouldn’t it be great if you– what insurances they accept there?” 

1:09:30

Right.

 So you know, we added that and so that’s all in this guide, and it’s split up in such a way. And because we encourage people to actually see a primary care doctor before– as a really– as a first step because some behavioral health issues like headaches, depression, can actually be a sign of a physical health problem like diabetes, umm– we recommend that people see primary care docs first to make sure. You know, like if you have suddenly been depressed, and you’ve never been depressed in your life, there may be something else going on, right? 

Right. 

And um, so we had– uh, if you look at the guide, you can see all the different people who were involved in the original, and then a bunch of people who helped with the second edition. I had, um, a psychologist review it for me–

Mhmm

I had, you know, I had different groups to review it, um– I had a, you know, a couple of the family docs look at it and make sure that, you know, that we were never overstepping? We never wanna be giving advice. We’re not giving advice, we’re just trying to get people to recognize, um, that they may need help and–

Right 

And how to help the partners who want to do that. 

So the partners, kind of, like, through their experiences, like, collect a certain amount of information on– on things that people are going through in the community, and then you work with them to, like, find solutions? I guess is kind of what’s going o–

Yeah, so yeah. We work with them as much as we can find things that, you know, aren’t– I mean, the real solution may be that we need more counseling, [starts laughing] but we need it to be free!

Right. 

And–

Or, like how, how– sorry, go on. 

And that’s hard. 

Yeah. And I don’t know, I’m wondering–

You know, and that’s the thing– is like, people don’t know. Like the federally qualified health centers, a lot of them have behavioral health now. 

Right. 

The one here in New Brunswick has a whole– so you know, if you’re a patient of that, and you need behavioral health, they have counselors and psychologists who are affiliated and, and see patients there. 

Right. 

But that was actually a change that had to occur at the state level, and it took a lot of federally qualified health centers and a lot of people screaming and I, you know, I on behalf of the medical school, were all, you know, um– asking to change some of the rules. There were these weird archaic rules about not being able to ha– collocate behavioral health services with physical health services. Um– you actually had to have separate doors, and separate meeting spaces and–

1:12:50

Right. 

And, you know, it took a while to make the state understand that that was really difficult. That if you gave somebody a referral out, they were more likely not to do it–

Mhmm–

And not get the help. 

Mhmm. 

Instead you could say, “Wait a minute, let me just bring in the behavioral health counselor and introduce them so you could come back here to have–”

Right. 

“a private one-on-one with them.” It’s a very different thing. 

Right. And that, you know, so that’s occurred within the last few years, and that’s been wonderful. It’s–

Does insurance, like, the type of people that insurance– that people have– or like, Medicare, Medicaid, cover things that are related to behavioral health? Or mental health? So, if you’re part of a federally qualified health center, and you have Medica– if you have Medicaid, it is covered. 

Okay. 

Because federally qualified health centers are– have different rules than other places. It’s not covered everywhere though, and it’s– I have, you know, what is considered “the best health insurance” and I can’t get really good [laughs] behavioral health care. 

Right.

If I just wanted something because I was having a period of my life where I just was struggling, I could not easily, um–

Right

Access it without paying for it. You know, the copay is so high, the– they only do, like an initial visit–

Right– 

And the rest is up to you. So it does get very costly for people. 

And like, do you think that, like, the people in the communities that, that you work with, like, in part, as you were saying, like, there’s an issue with them knowing where to go? But is it also an issue of there not being options? For like, counseling, or like–? 

It’s a combination, it’s actually a few other things, too. Some of it’s cultural. 

Mhmm. 

There’s a lot of cultural stigma around– um–

Therapy? 

Yeah, around therapy. And getting– and, and even saying that you’re depressed, or unhappy, or um– you know, we are a world that kind of pushes everybody to be happy all the time! [laughs] 

1:15:23

Right, right. 

You know, we do not show unhappy people!

No. 

[Laughing] Um, so that’s one problem. And um, so my colleagues at New Brunswick Tomorrow are working on a stigma campaign in the high school to work in the school system to start talking about–

Mmm–

Because thinking that younger people might be willing more to talk about it. Um, and giving them a place– especially now that COVID has occurred and people are feeling the pain of COVID, and of isolation. 

Yeah. 

And not being able to have a life that they remember [laughing] 

Yeah

Back so long ago, right? Um, so they are working on that. 

Mhmm. 

And so we focus on st– and that’s how we kind of differentiate ourselves. They’re focusing on reaching those individuals, where I’m more focused on reaching the community partners. 

Right. 

Umm– and so– um, I provide them the resources and support that they need if they need it, you know. But I can’t– I try not to do the same work. 

Right. Um, but in terms of access, do you feel there are times when maybe, just the infrastructure, just the social infrastructures are lacking? Or do you think–

It’s not easy for people. You know, often–

Yeah–

They’re not in the places where they’re comfortable, and comfort has a lot to do– so, in our behavioral health resource guide, we have things where if you’re just feeling anxious, there’s a lot of stress in your life and you just need somebody to talk to, we recommend talking to your clergy! A lot of clergy has been, especially in this area–

Right–

Has been great now, to tell–

Mmm– 

And so, if that’s what you feel comfortable– it’s– not talking is the worst thing you can do. 

Right. 

And so, if you– well, a lot of people– most people just have a trusted friend– you know, that they can talk to. 

Right.

 Umm, but there are people who don’t, and so we don’t have enough in any community. I mean, I– I– I don’t think any community has enough and certainly not enough that’s affordable. 

Right. 

And– and easy. And I don’t– I don’t work much on substance abuse because I don’t wanna spread myself too thin–

1:18:20

Mhmm 

And I think there are a lot of solid partners who focus on substance abuse–

Mhmm 

But, there are not nearly enough facilities for substance abuse. 

Yes. 

And there aren’t necessarily programs that are– aimed at what a lot of people would prefer, which is harm reduction rather than abstinence. 

Right. 

And I, you know, I don’t know enough about those programs to say one is better than the other, but, um– and I don’t know how, as counselors, you decide people can do harm reduction and– um– but– um–

I’m wondering, like, how– how– 'cause when I think of– I mean, obviously like, with mental health and addiction there is obviously a sort of– um, you know, brain chemistry, sort of issue, but I– I wonder how much of this is also just like manifestations of, like, structural issues or, like, economic issues that cause– 

Oh that cause the [unclear]

Socio– kind of desperation? 

Yeah–

And then wondering if like, are there community health approaches that communicate with other sectors, or– you know, do research on that? 

Well there are– there’s something called “adverse childhood experiences” which has come to– uh– recently has come to, sort of, light. 

Mhmm. 

And these are experiences that children experience as, um, when they’re in their childhood so they’ve actually surveyed people to understand this, but something like divorce, something like abuse, something like a parent who is an alcoholic or a substance user, um– there’s a whole series of them. A child being abused themselves, a child watching a parent be abused, uh–

Mmm. 

Um, and what they have found, is that people who have– the most adverse childhood experiences you have, the more likely you’re going to have worse health outcomes, but they do know that a trusted adult– maybe not a parent, um– can help reverse some of that. So it’s newish research, and recently, here in New Jersey, the Nicholson Foundation is taking it on, it’s one of its– the Nicholson Foundation was sped up to spend out all it’s money, and they’re in their last year or two of spending on their money, and they’re taking it on as their sort of last– big project. Um–

Right–

They actually just put out a report, which I’m just beginning to start to read, um, but that– um– so if you’ve experienced these things– deep poverty– you know, those kinds of things, they do actually impact your long term outcome, both physically and mentally. 

1:21:40

Yeah. 

And um, there is a form of behavioral health therapy, uh, or a way of approach, I guess you would call it, that is called Trauma–Informed Care and that is assuming that all mental health is related to some kind of trauma in your past. 

Right. 

So it could be bullying, it could be– um– you tried to come out– and, you know, as gay, and people kept you from doing that because they told you it was against your religion, or they told you it was an embaressement to your parents, or whatever. So they’re finding that there are these traumas that people experience that often cause issues, and getting to that trauma and recognizing– and I’m not a counselor, so I can’t really tell you what the process is, but I know that the counselors work with those traumas and try to, you know, help people see through those traumas and get past those traumas to, um– start becoming more healthy.

Right. What do you think more specifically to New Brunswick are, like, the biggest challenges you see that people face, or like– 

Well I think it’s, I mean, I think it’s, it’s comfort. Uh, finding a place where they’re comfortable. I mean, umm– that’s why we’re trying to encourage more support groups–

Mhmm–

That can occur in places that people are comfortable. Umm, trying to um– so destigmatizing it so that people are comfortable talking, because a lot of people are just not comfortable socially in New Brunswick talking about it. I mean, it just–

Right–

Um– and– then the other thing that I’m working on with some of my medical students is we’re talking about how to develop small things about coping. Little things that help people cope when they start feeling anxious or when– so, I even noticed this myself. Um, since COVID started, I’m working virtually every day. My husband and I take a walk– about a mile and three quarter walk on the Cook Douglass campus. And last week, when it snowed, I couldn’t take a walk because of the ice, and one day, I just said, “If I don’t take a walk today, [starts laughing] I’m gonna start crying!” Because I just found myself, like I– I– I felt like I had attention deficit disorder! 

Right, right. 

I couldn’t focus on anything! 

Yeah. 

And, and I was just fritting from one task to another, and not doing anything– accomplishing anything! 

Mhmm. 

I’d start something, and another thing would pop in my mind. And a walk actually did it for me!

Right. 

You know? 

Yeah. 

And so, it taught both of us that it really is important to just say, “Okay, we’re gonna do it!” 

1:25:06

Right. 

You know, so. Yeah. So there are simple coping skills that people can use, I mean, there’s a lot of stuff going on right now that people– like, being in front of your screen all the time and– not ever, you know, just being able to just kind of, close your eyes and not [laughing, indiscernible] 

Right. 

At least for me! That can be really hard. 

Right, yeah. And then, speaking about coping, I wanted to kind of ask about the garden, because I’ve had the chance to interview some of the gardeners and I know that it’s, I mean I think the– the community that is at the garden, um, a lot of them are undocumented so I think a lot of, like, their– the challenges that they face, you know, in terms of mental and emotional health, and even physical health, are very much related to that experience? 

Yeah. 

Of that, like, insecurity? But a lot of them really speak super fondly of the garden as a place that really helped– just has really helped them in so many ways. Um, you know, just having somewhere to go and having something to grow and it seems like it’s had a really positive impact on the people who I’ve spoken to. So I’m just wondering, yeah, like how– how did you come into being involved with the gardens and– yeah– 

Oh, mmm, well, yeah. So, I grew up– my grandfather, who I mentioned was Sicilian. 

Mhmm. 

Um, he was my mother’s father, and he had– um– he was living in Jers– he was living in Brooklyn, you’ll know. He was in Borough Park in Brooklyn, and um–

Mhmm 

He had a little townhouse, they had a townhouse that was in the middle. It wasn’t an end townhouse. Um, and he had a little, what I would– close to say, a garden. And it was the most amazing place of my childhood. 

Mmm. 

[Interjections, indiscernible] 

That, I’d go to my grandfathers and they had put up a kitchen down in their basement, and then they had one of these doors that opened up, the metal doors that opened up and you had to step out of the basement into the backyard. And you would go out into this little backyard of his, and some of it was concrete and then the rest of it was up behind a retaining wall, and it was his garden. And he had two [unclear] trees which he had planted when his two sons went into World War II. He planted these two [fig?] trees for both of his sons and he had this amazing garden! And he would grow potatoes, and tomatoes, and squash and beans and whatnot and so forth. You know, you go out there on a summer day and he’d be picking things, and he’d put them on– the tomatoes out on trays to fry them– and it was just a really magical place to me. So I always wanted to garden, and, um, my parents– we had all this property, but they put the garden in the shade! 

Right. [Laughing] Which never made any sense to me!

1:28:29

Did they grow? 

Not very well! [Laughing] Things would grow, but very slowly. I mean, some things grew, in the shade, but not very well. But my mother was all about appearance in some funny way, and, you know, they had this big piece of the property that she wanted it at the back of the property so that you could see it from the street. 

Yeah. 

And it was in the shade, we had a lot of trees! And, uh, my dad wouldn’t take down any trees– So, in high school, I asked my parents if they would let me garden on the side of the house where you could see it from the street but where the sun was! And my mother finally relented, and let us make a small garden there. So I did, um– but when I– when I owned my own home in Maryland, and when I was working with all these community groups around the country, I recognized that being able to grow food was really important. So I– I was renting at the time– we were renting a house, and I, um, got permission from the landlord to put in a garden and I did a lot of research about gardening in small spaces because we didn’t have a ton of property there. And I didn’t want to turn the whole yard into a garden. 

Right. 

And I learned how to do really inten– I knew my grandfather did it, but I was too young to really learn from him in some ways. And my grandfather made his own wine, so he used to put his wine grape every year into the garden, he would turn his–

He used to put his what? 

Wine grape? 

Oh wow! 

He made wine, my grandfather made wine. 

That’s amazing. 

It’s a big family thing. And he would take the leftovers, you know, from the grape came on the vine, I mean, yeah on their vines, and he would take all that stuff and throw it in a pile and then after he finished with the grapes, there would be this stuff leftover– this kind of deep, dark, almost brownish purple, um– and he would– let it dry in the sun, and then he would put the whole thing– He’d turn it into his garden. We used to joke as kids that the wine grapes would um–the flowers would get drunk! 

Right! They really do. 

[Laughing] So I learned about intensive gardening, and I did it– I have, um, I used to get really early in the morning and I still get up early in the morning now– I think because I used to have to get up– Maryland was pretty warm, and– in the summers, especially in August, so I would get up at like four in the morning, and like, sit in front of my garden. And I challenged myself to grow enough food for my husband and I, and my mom. Uh, enough vegetables for us for the summer. And I did it for about three or four summers while we were in the house. We– our landlords wanted the house back, and were subdividing the property, so we had to leave them there, but um– I really got into gardening and I really loved it. And when I came here, um– I’m not even sure how I got originally involved with the garden on Sudan Street, but I think is, I was talking to some folks who were at Rutgers at Cook College, who I was trying to get a job with and they were involved with that garden– 

1:32:20

Mhmm– 

And– I started volunteering there, and– um– I quickly became concerned about the lead in the garden. 

Mmm. 

And I worked with– I talked to Mark Robson who is an expert on lead, who is at the school of public health, one of the teachers at the school of public health, and he helped me design a– research study to do on that garden and lead. And we got a small amount of money, from what was Healthier New Brunswick–

Mhmm–

To do the– to pay to do the, um– the, uh–

The study–

The study. And I had half of the study samples– we, we collected one hundred study samples and we sent half of them to the Cooperative Extension in Middlesex County who do a, um, a test where they basically use water and drip it through, and then measure the lead that has come out of the drip. I can’t think of the name of that test. And then I had a colleague, who I knew from my years at the Environmental Research Foundation up at the University of Massachusetts who did lead testing with gas chromatography which is a much more sensitive test. 

Mhmm. 

And uh, so they found that the lead levels were off the charts– 

Wow–

As I had suspected!

How did you suspect that there was lead? 

Um, I assumed that lead was everywhere in New Brunswick because all the housing stock was old. 

Oh, okay. 

And that property had a house on it. 

Right. 

And the– when we put– put the test on the map– we had like a grid map– where we would put the parts per billion on the map, and laid it out, you could literally see the foundation of the house where the numbers were really high. 

Right. 

So at that point, I started advocating to all the gardeners that they should not be digging into the ground–

Yeah.

But that they should be doing what the EPA calls a “Lead Safe Yard.”

Mhmm. 

It’s where you lay down, um,  which we did, in that garden– good agricultural soil, not the stuff you buy at Home Depot, but the stuff you’d get from a farm company that sells it to farmers. 

Right. 

You lay it down, and then you either put soil right on top of it or you build raised beds. 

Right. 

And we decided to build raised beds, and at the time, you know, that garden had no budget at all. 

1:35:45

Right.

Um–

Where was– who started– who was running it? 

It was being run through this program that no longer exists at Cook College. 

Okay. 

I’m trying to think of the name of the program. It was– a woman named Annie Bellows–

Mhmm

Was doing it. Lorena Gabor was working with that program, and um, shortly after I got to New Jersey, the guy who was running the program went to the University of Michigan and I can’t think of hi– Mike Hamm, I think his last name was. H-A-M-M. 

Mhmm. 

He had left and gone to the University of Michigan, but then Ralph Kulman took it over. 

Okay. 

And then were, sort of, running it for a while, but the idea was that it would become community owned, and it would fall into the community at some point. Um, and so we go– we, through, Cook College, we had a connection, and back then you used be to able to go out to the mushroom farms, and get the mushroom soil– 

Mhmm

Um, that was spent. You can only use it once–

Mhmm

It’s sterilized soil, and it’s really high quality! 

Okay. 

And we had found a truck driver who would go out and pick up a big load of it, and he would literally brought it and dumped it at the garden and that’s what the original garden was based on. 

Okay. 

Since then, they’ve probably done different things, um– but, then I– myself, Lorena, and a couple other people took over, and kind of, were, running it for a while and were trying to, sort of, get it more, um, formalized and then Unity Square started up, and Unity Square was sort of taking it on. I don’t– is Unity Square still– 

Yeah. 

The nonprofit sort of [indiscernible]–

Yeah, yeah. They are. But before they came in, where was the funding coming from, when you were helping to run it? 

We were literally, uh, bootstrapping it for the most part. We got a little bit of funding from Healthier New Brunswick to do the lead project, to check for lead, and they let us use some of that funding to buy the wood and stuff that we needed for the beds, but like the– like I recall, the shed, I don’t know if the shed is still there, and this is where Jim Landers comes in, the shed was donated. Somebody had a shed they didn’t want anymore. 

1:38:34

Ohhh, okay. 

And we somehow got it taken apart in pieces, and we– Jim was very good with tools and he oversaw the rebuilding of it on that, uh, garden. 

Mhmm. 

Um, he lived right up the street, on Sudan, and so, he kind of was– uh– until he got sick, he was, um, really over– he would take– but we had regular garden– to get the garden going, we had regular, kind of, garden events every week. 

Mhmm. 

We agreed to work in the garden together one night every week, at least. We would be there, and then a young woman named Nicole Wine would be there. She's really great with the kids because we always attracted– as soon as we opened those garden gates, we had ten kids with us! 

Right. And who was gardening at that point, who was using the gardens? 

They were mostly people who lived on the street right there. I think we had a couple people from the houses that were budding the property, um– and we had– we had a couple beds that we just, like, the volunteer gardeners did–

Mhmm–

But we didn’t take the stuff out of it, we gave it to people or it was just there, um– for other people to use. But there were a couple gardeners who lived on Sudan street that came. 

Right. 

Jim’s wife was one of them. 

Mhmm. Um, so who is Jim? 

Well, he lived up the street. I’d have to go look at the house and get you the number but I could tell ya [laughs] if I looked at the house. He lived up the street, not very far, and he was involved with our– so the crime watch, somehow, was sort of overseeing it for a while– there was a very active Second Ward block club and crime watch, which still exists and I’m still a member of, but they’re much smaller now. In fact, when we were bigger and there were more people, a lot of the, sort of older folks who had lived in New Brunswick their entire lives were involved with the Second Ward, and the Second Ward was sort of a sponsor of the garden for a while– and, um– I think we might have used some of the Second Ward money to do some of the stuff and um–Morris Kofca was the head of the Second Ward at the time, and he lived right at the corner there of Livingston and Sudan so he could see the garden from his house. 

Mhmm.

 And so he made sure, he had someone– he had multiple apartments in his house, and he had a, you know, he had someone who took care of his yard and everything so he’d have that person just go walk by the garden and make sure everything is okay! [Laughing]

Right. 

But it was clean, and all that stuff. Um–

Right. 

So Jim was just somebody who got involved with the Second Ward and became involved with the garden, and– I mean, that’s how some of the folks got involved originally I think. 

1:42:18

So it’s kind of just been, like handed down between–

Yeah. 

Different organizations and different people–

Yeah, I mean the garden has its challenges because there isn’t, and I don’t think there still is, a source of water so we would have to call the fire department. 

Right. 

And that was always fun, when the fire department would– would wet down the whole garden and then fill, uh, we used to have barrels back then, I think now they have some rain barrels, but had just barrels, and we would fill it– have them fill the barrels and just use hand watering, so there were a few challenges to that garden. And I never understood why the city, we tried many times to get the city to put a tap, and we just couldn’t understand why the city wouldn’t put a tap in there. 

So the city has just never really been involved? 

No, the only thing is that they permit it to be there, and it's their property. 

Okay. 

So the city kind of, like, bought out this lot, once the house– I think they got it through– I don’t know the history, but I assume they got it through an empty domain because the taxes were not paid on it. 

Okay. Ohhh– kay. Yeah. 

So after a certain ti– you know, I don’t know the rules, but after a certain time, the city has a right to take over properties and they probably did, that property. Because as I recall, the city– we used to have to go through city council every so often and get permission to garden on the property. 

Right. Do you know who first started– you briefly mentioned, but do you know, like someone who first started using it as a garden, like where that initiative came from? 

I actually think it came through this group at Cook College. I, um, I will have to dig through but I will find the name of it. 

Okay. 

It was an urban-agriculture program. And they may have even written a journal article about it. 

Okay. 

They were out of Nutritional Sciences, as I recall. 

Okay. Yeah, if you– if you have any– any contacts with anyone or somewhere I could refer myself to, that would be great. 

Yeah, I’ll– I’ll, uh– and Lorena is in Colorado now, but she has roo– deep roots in New Jersey, she grew up in New Brunswick, so, um– she may be someone to talk to, too because she may have better knowledge about, um– who started it. 'cause it was already started– but I’m pretty sure it was started through this– I– I can find it. I’ll– I’ll find the– um, the information for you. 

1:45:15

Thank you. 

And if you want, somewhere, I have to get them off my archive, my photo archive, I have photos of the kids from some of the garden nights. 

Yeah, that would be great! Because we’re doing an illustrated project, so photos would be amazing. 

Yeah, so I’ll– I’ll uh, I have a computer so I’ll– I have a sad story about my photographs! Back, I used, uh, uh, program called Aperture and I use a Mac–

Mhmm–

And I used Aperture for many years. And I had spent a lot of organizing it into different categories, and the garden was one, the Sudan Street Garden. And at some point, they upgraded, Aperture, they stopped, they bought– it’s typical of many of these digital companies, they buy the software and then they shelve it, and that’s what they did with Aperture. 

Yeah. 

And they brought their photo thing to it– which always felt inferior to me–

Yeah–

Anyway, I have one computer. I had never upgraded it and [indiscernible] and I’ve been slowly pulling them off–

Yeah, right. But yeah, so those garden nights, were they kind of, like, fundraising events? Or were they just–

No, they were just open nights and anybody who wanted to come in and garden could garden. 

Oh, nice. 

So we would supply tools, so that’s one of the reasons we wanted a shed, was we had tools, we had gotten some tools. Um– you know, some of us, you know, bought some tools, some of us, there were tools. We bought gloves, went to the dollar store, bought a bunch of us gloves. And gave people–

And so, at that point, people didn’t have their own individual beds that they would go to? There were a couple people that had beds, but at that point we were mainly just putting stuff. Like we had a bed or this, a bed of that, a bed of this, a bed of that. 

Mmm. 

And anybody who came in, could garden it and when the harvest came, anybody could take stuff. You know, we were pretty– you know, I mean until– so we tried, a couple times, I think to get gardeners but it was very hard because people weren’t comfortable. And, um, a couple people spoke Spanish, but I didn’t speak Spanish so– ironically, my mother would speak Italian to the kids and they would–

1:48:05

Yeah– 

Speak Spanish to her, and they would communicate. It was very powerful to watch. I brought her to the garden a couple of times, I had to go pick her up because she was, at that point, living in Piscataway and would have to go pick her up to bring her, but–

Yeah– 

She liked to go to the gardens! She– she was funny about the gardens because I– when I  had my garden in Maryland, she would come to the garden with me on the weekends and she always laughed because her father would never let her garden because she was a girl. 

1:48:35

Right. 

And girls weren’t supposed to get dirty, and they weren’t supposed to be in the garden– They were supposed to be cooking, but not gardening– you know. So she– she said, she would sometimes talk to him and– it was very funny to watch!

Right. 

“See dad, I can do this!” [laughing] 

Right! 

So–

Yeah, and then so– how many years were you involved with– with, um, Landers? 

I don’t know, I’d have to look– I can– I can let you know, it’s on some CD somewhere. 

Mhmm. 

Um, I couldn’t– at some point, I had to stop volunteering. My mother really started to need more of my attention– she really began to struggle, and I had to stop volunteering. And um–

Right. 

I was gardening there, and I was also gardening over at Rutgers Garden. I mean, it was very different because Rutgers Garden is more ornamental. 

Mhmm. 

Um– just looking to see if I’ve got this CD on my work desk, I was actually working on my reappointment. Ah, let me get my CD out. I really can’t remember if I kept that on the CD. 

It’s not essential. 

Yeah, I– I’ll find it eventually. 

Yeah. And, um, I guess, wh– why do you think community gardens– what do you think that they bring to communities, or to people? 

I think they bring a bunch of things. One is it has people who are really struggling who have, um, a place– um– to– go and– just have a social space. Um, I think that, um, there’s a lot of evidence that any green space, even a small green space, helps people with their mental health and there’s a fair amount of evidence now about this in the public literature. Um– and so, like, gardens are green spaces and people like to watch things grow. Um, I think it’s really good for kids because kids, a lot of kids, especially kids who are growing up in a city, don’t really understand how things grow. 

Yeah. 

And are always surprised to learn that carrots come out of the ground! [laughing]

1:51:18

Yeah.

 You know, um, and, you know, a lot of the wo– I mean, a lot of people, and I say this, um– I mean, even– sort of my own family, uh, young people, some of them that just don’t really understand that because there isn’t anyone in their life doing it, right? 

Totally. 

And so, um– it– it’s very far removed. And I think of the community effort, it helps bring people together who might not normally hang out together. 

Right. 

You know, because it creates a sort of, a different kind of commonality for them, than, uh– you know, what they might– do–

Yeah. 

So–

Right, yeah. What– how do you feel that there could be ways to implement more urban gardening? What do you think are the challenges to that becoming more, more widespread? 

Um, well you need spaces, you need the soil to be safe. You know, you need business. I– I try to tell people even today, in New Brunswick you should just assume your soil is– has lead it in– 

Right. 

Because of all the houses, and all the houses have [unclear]. Um, and that you should, um– either garden in containers or raised beds, and– and you should have some kind of real serious barrier between the soil and what is native soil, and the growing soil. 

Right. 

Um, so when you get to that barrier, you stop. You know, you don’t just stumble through it. 

Right. 

Um–

Yeah. And why do you think that, like– city governments are unwilling to, or like, at least in this specific case, like– you know, why are they unwilling to get involved in these potential projects? 

I think, I mean, I think for them, it was that they thought people were going to steal the water, you know, in New Brunswick, the water’s filtered and water is expensive, you know. And I mean, it costs to, like, filter it and stuff. Um– I– I think there are ways around it, but it is easy for somebody who is not in need to sort of understand, or not understand– you know, that people need this.

1:54:31

Yeah. 

And that it is an amenity. And they should see it as a positive rather than a negative, but I’ve seen– I read a lot of stories about community gardens that people want to get rid of in communities that are thriving and doing well, but are, you know, have squatted on somebody’s land and then they want to turn it into an apartment building and–

Yeah–

You know, um– but the value of these spaces is very underrated in a lot of governments. I think it’s slowly changing but it's taken a lot to get it to change. 

Right. 

Um–

And what kind of efforts do you think are getting it to change, or could get it to change? Um– well, I think with food and security, people are beginning to recognize that it’s a good way to help with that. And, uh, you know, it does help people. In cities, I think, you know, I think about, when I see shows about England for example– they have a lot, they have gardens everywhere. 

Yeah. 

You know, and everybody has an allotment for the most part! 

Yeah. 

They all lived very similarly as people who do in New Brunswick. In New Brunswick you have, you know, one house in many cases, and they don’t have any property that they have access to, and they need something. Um– and they don’t have the ability to drive out– I mean– I was a master gardener– I became a master gardener at some point, and um– the county– because you do your master gardener stuff through the County Cooperative Extension– moved the gardens that they had around the Cook campus, out to North Brunswick somewhere– um, it’s like three miles, four miles down Route 130. And, you know, it’s a beautiful, big piece of property but it’s crazy! Nobody can get there. And they kept saying to me, “No, they need to come out here” and I’d be like, “No! How is anyone in New Brunswick going to get out there? They don’t have transportation!” 

Right. It defeats the point of, like, the community garden, right. 

Right, exactly! It does! I mean, they’ve developed a different kind of community out there, but it’s not the same, and it’s not what it really is meant to be. I mean, people should be able to walk from their home to their garden. 

Yeah. 

Um–

Especially if you have to, like, carry produce

Or tools!

Yeah. 

I used to walk– they used to laugh at me– because on the nights we gardened, I always carried my fork– my turning fork! At the end of the evening– 'cause I walked down to the garden– by the time I walked back to my house, it might be dark, so I just, you know, it’s New Brunswick, it’s not exactly safe everywhere, and I wasn’t going to mess with anybody. A dog, or anything! [laughs] So I walked with– I always carried my turning fork. 

1:58:17

Yeah! Well, Maria, that answered the questions, or the, you know, what I kind of wanted to cover. 

Okay, good! 

Is there anything else that you wanted to mention or talk about?

 No. It was interesting! I hadn’t had a [unclear] life!

Yeah, yeah! Well, yeah! It’s been a lovely conversation, thank you so much for being so generous with your time and it’s really been a helpful interview for the project and, um, I’ll look to keep you updated and I might follow up when I transcribe– I might follow up with certain, like, questions, maybe, like, names? Things like that, so I can maybe figure out who to reach out to next. Um, but I’ll follow up via email and if– if you have a chance to look for the pictures, that would actually be super helpful. 

Yeah, I will. 

But yeah. And again, you’ll have a chance to read the transcript. Once I transcribe it, I can send it over to you. Um, but yeah, thank you so much again, it’s been really lovely talking! 

Well, okay, well if you have any questions just let me know! 

Okay. Alright, take care. 

Alright, bye. Buh–bye.

1:59:45