Cheyenne Garstad is a survivor of sexual violence who has received services from The Center for Empowerment and now currently works for The Center For Empowerment.

ANNOTATIONS

Annotations coming soon.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by John Keller

Interview conducted remotely

March 2, 2021

Transcription by Destiny Morales

[Transcriber’s note: Destiny Morales was present to observe the interview, but not present to speak for the rest of the interview.]

 00:00:00

John Keller: Okay we’re recording now. Okay, so this is John Keller with coLAB Arts. I am located in the coLAB Arts office in 9 Bayard Street, New Brunswick, New Jersey. Um– Today we are interviewing

Narrator: Cheyenne Garstad, Um, staff at Middlesex County Center for Empowerment

Awesome, and could you spell your name for us Cheyenne, for the record?

Yes, it’s C-H-E-Y-E-N-N-E and last name Garstad is G-A-R-S-T-A-D.

Excellent, and, uh, also joining in this interview observing the interview is– 

Destiny Morales: Destiny Morales

Great, Destiny could you spell your name for the record

Destiny Morales: First name D-E-S-T-I-N-Y last name M-O-R-A-L-E-S

Excellent, um, so yeah we’ll just, kinda, get started. So Cheyenne as I mentioned we’ll just kinda get started from the beginning. Where and when were you born?

Right, I was born in 1991, uh, in New Brunswick, uh, New Jersey much like so many other people [laughs] in New Jersey. Uh, Saint Peters, uh it’s the– like the home of all newborn babies in Jersey, yeah.

Excellent, when you were born where was your, kinda, immediate family located? Were they based in New Brunswick or?

Yeah, so when I was first born my mom, my father, and my brother were living in a small apartment in New Brunswick. Um, right off of Livingston Ave, yeah. 

Excellent, when you were a child, or as you were growing up, were there any stories told to you around the day you were born?

Oh I think the biggest story I think people remember that I have heard about the day I was born was really about my name and how it was chosen. Uh, there were no ideas of names for me, but while I was [corrected: when the narrator’s mother was in hospital] in the hospital, um, apparently there was a really big news story. Um, not a fun one, it was an awful news story, but one of the people in the news was named Cheyenne. The name was just on every single news channel she saw in the news channel and she really liked the name so that’s how she came up with it which was really fun [laughs].

Um, so you mentioned that your, um, some of your other immediate family members, so who was your,kind of like– what was your family structure in your early childhood? 

Yeah so my first circle of people or my initial immediate family was my mother, um, her name was Jane. Actually her name is Aida after her mom, but she’s called Jane. Nobody in my family is actually called their name except for me. Um, but, uh, my mother, uh, my father was, um, in my life and around, um, until I was four, uh, and then he went to jail and he was still in my life but from a distance for quite some time, and then my younger brother, uh, my older brother sorry, um, is a year older than me about fourteen months, uh, and he was in my immediate circle, uh, in my younger days though we spent a lot of time around. I have a couple of half siblings that, uh, between me, my brother, and my half sibling. We were all born within two years so we have some funky math to do there, but that meant we were all really close and around the same age. So we had a lot of fun and we were really close with them when we were younger, we all lived in New Brunswick.

Mhm, how long did your family live in New Brunswick? 

Oh, my mom has been in New Brunswick my entire life. Um, so she was born in New Brunswick, I think in Saint Peters again. And my father I think was back and forth. I think he was born in New York, then to North Carolina, back up to New York, then to New Jersey. He was scattered quite a bit, um, but my mom’s family is all from the New Brunswick area.

Gotcha, um, what do you remember– you said you were around four years old– your family was together as a unit at the time you were around four and your family was incarcerated, do you remember anything specific or about that time or have any recollection about that?

I mean it’s a fascinating question, I– it’s one of those things that I feel I have very few memories from that early on. Um, I don’t remember anything about that time period or even that apartment other than where it was. I think it’s only because every time we drive passed it we’re like, “Hey that’s our first apartment or these old family pictures or videos in that space,” and those are really my only memories, and I don’t even know if those are memories or just old memories of the pictures of the videos and driving passed the place. Um, but I don’t really recall, um, you know, the dynamic or the environment, uh, before my dad went to jail, um, and in that first apartment. Once he went to jail we moved to a different apartment in New Brunswick. Um, I have a few memories there. Um, and a lot more of the, uh, visiting him from jail or a regular basis and things like that that are pretty clear just because I was a little bit older, um, and yeah. 

5:39

Well I guess that would be my next question. What are some of your earliest memories of childhood or spending time with family or, you know, what your– who your first friends might have been at that time.

Yeah, um, so in my earliest days– I mean the biggest memories I think that are clearest in my head are Christmas at my Grandma’s. We have a very big extended family on my mom's side, my dad's side is also huge as well, but we spent a lot of time around my mom's family. And so they lived in Rutgers village, which is New Brunswick but not really New Brunswick, it’s in its own little city over there. It was a beautiful house, um, and there was so clear memories, and I was one of twelve grandchildren and, um, so all of us on top of some other great grans by the time that I was still that age there were some that were a little older than me, um, and just a packed full house snowing. Like, chilly and just presents through the entire living room and hallway because there just wasn’t enough space under the tree. And so that was one of the most biggest, um, fondest and most happiest memories in childhood and really at the younger ages. Um, I remember learning how to rollerblade down my driveway in New Brunswick. I had a best friend named Alyssa and I have no contact with her now but I remember her so clearly. Um, and we hung out pretty often, uh, when I was pretty young, uh, and I think once we moved to the other side of town– my mom told me that once I left the house, because I wanted to go see her, I walked across town to go to my friend Alyssa’s house [laughs] and, uh, and I didn’t know how far that was, but hearing the stories I heard that it was a distance that not 6 year old 7 year olds should be walking but, uh, I really wanted to see my friend but we had moved and it was so far but I was determined. Um, and so I remember Alyssa and I remember my grandma's house and, um, from my time in New Brunswick, uh, yeah.

When you had moved from that early childhood apartment from the second apartment, how was early childhood then?

Uh, so that’s a really good question. It was on Talmage Street, uh, and I can’t even tell you where that is in comparison to, um, the first apartment that we had. Um, I know the first apartment that we went to was the one right next to the library. It was, like, this tiny little brick building and we were in the back– backyard basement apartment. And we always played in the parking lot flying our kite and things like that. Uh, and so I know it was significantly further away, but I honestly don’t have a good image of where they were in relation to each other. 

Cool, um, so you told us a little bit about your mom’s side of the family. Did you ever spend time with your dad’s extended part of the family? 

Um, not until I was a bit older. Uh, once my dad, uh, got out of jail, um, I was probably around 11 or 12, um, and he started living with my aunt, so that was the first time, other than my half siblings, where whenever I went over to see him we would naturally end up seeing a lot of my cousins, aunts, and uncles, uh, and it’s a pretty large family. Um, but because we were only there to visit for a few hours, and most of the time we were kids wanting to run around and play and not really focusing on, uh, the people that were there. We just wanted to run to the corner store and get ourselves a bag of chips and any thing that we can get for the five bucks that my dad gave us and come home with a smorgasbord of treats, [laughs] uh. I– we didn’t really get close to them, so I knew a few names and, until this day, there’s a couple of my– my Aunt Ruth, who is my dad's sister, he– he’s one of nine, so he also has a lot of siblings. Uh, we are pretty close to her and so I know her and talk to her on a regular basis. So are my other half siblings, uh, it’s not just the four, it’s actually fourteen of us altogether, and so I also– I have communication with some of my other half siblings, but a lot of them are older– older than me. I am the second youngest of the fourteen.

Gotcha

There are some big gaps [laughs] yeah.

Um, what was it like visiting your father for the first time in prison?

Um, I, uh, I don’t remember exactly what the first time was, but I remember kinda the different stages depending on what facility he was in. Like, I remember going in and, like, doing the pat down walking through the metal detectors. I have memories of this really long row of plastic tables with big clunky plastic chairs and all the inmates sat on one side and all the families got to sit on the other side. Um, and we were allowed to reach over and touch and hug over the table but we couldn’t be on the same side of the table. Um, and, uh, so I remember that pretty clearly. Always pleasant. I don’t really have any bad memories because for me at that age that was just normal. It was something I didn’t realize that other people didn’t experience because there’s, like, a ton of other kids there seeing their parents, um, it wasn’t odd to me until much later on in life until I realize that this is not something that my other friends experienced and did. But there was also– in a way he got to I guess, like, a halfway house setting, it was a big enclosed place with huge fences, but we got to go in and they had family days where they had photo booths and face painting and balloon making and a ton of other stuff for the kids and we had pictures that they let us take home with us from inside of the facility and, you know, it was me and my brother and my other two half siblings would often go together all to visit him once it was at that point where we could all– it was an open setting. That was a pretty regular occurrence. Um, I know my mom has told me stories about having to get on the train to go. I assume the prison was not close by, maybe it was up in Trenton. I don’t actually know which facility he was in. Um, but she would tell me stories about how long it would take to get on the train or bus to get there, um, and, uh, and then how long it takes to get in there just to spend a half hour to go do that trip again. So I can imagine it must have been a huge burden on her to go back and forth. I know she wasn’t doing it for her, uh, or their relationship, it was definitely for the sake of me and my brother and we never talk about that. I don’t know, this was probably one of the first times I talked about that. 

Do you get a sense– you mentioned that they weren’t doing it for their relationship. Were they kinda formally separated at that time?

Yeah so they were— they were never married. Um, and so, uh, they were supposed to be in a committed relationship obviously with two other siblings but my father didn’t take the commitment seriously, but, um, but they were in a relationship for years before me and my brother were born, and then, as far as I know, he was living with us almost full time until he went to jail, um, and so after that they talk everyday, even today, um, so they are still friends. My dad’s significantly older than my mom and is in worse health so she does a lot of caretaking for him even though he doesn’t live with us. I think since he's been out of jail she's been taking him to appointments he needs to go to and doing whatever she can to, you know, get him whatever he might need [laughs]. And so the relationship is unique I think, um, but, um, definitely no more romance after he went to jail– yeah. 

How would you– how would you describe your relationship with your parents?

Um, also unique and different. I am extremely close to my mother, um, we, um– Pretty much growing up in a single mom household, me, her, and my brother are extremely close. We did everything together, uh, you know, a lot of vacations and things that just build really strong bonds and respect and love. Um, and so I am pretty close with my mom, and so, you know, other than maybe talking to her about my feelings and deep stuff, it’s just something, uh, um, that– I think that part just never developed, mostly because I think there's a responsibility that happens for children of single parents where you don’t want to put more on– on the plate of someone who has already done so much and given so much. And we’re criers in my family so to bring my cries to my mom and then she would cry would be a whole thing. But, uh, we have a lot of fun together. We are like let's go hiking, let's go camping, let's spend quality time going out to eat or let's go shopping, um, and that’s, uh, to play games. Actually I live with my mom now still. Moved back in with my mom after even getting married and having kids and, uh, it’s always home with her. Um, my dad and I have a really different relationship. I imagine I was really close to him growing up, uh, I don’t remember having any issues. There was a period when, Iike, I think I was like thirteen and I have such clear memories. I think on my fourteenth birthday he was supposed to, like, come– come over and see me and take my brother to a concert or something, but instead we got a phone call saying he was moving to North Carolina that day. Um– and a shift happened where I was just angry and I– I– I grew up in a family that was religious at the time, I identified as born again Christian, uh, I was very into reading my Bible and doing devotionals and I– after that day I started writing a letter to my dad and it was awful. I was angry and I wrote– uh, you know, a poem expressing, how am I supposed to know he cares if he’s never around. Um, I wrote a really long letter about how he shouldn’t have had all these children if he wasn’t going to take care of them, um, he needed to be present and God can fix him. And I sent that letter– that poem and a Bible, I'm sure I sent a few bible verses in there and said my peace about– about what I believed to be his sin and the things he had done wrong, and so that was a rough time for our relationship. I didn’t talk to him for a while after that, probably close to a year. Um, and, uh, that was kinda how I dealt with it. And when my brother's birthday came around probably that next January, I remember him calling my mom and blaming her for me sending that letter. And now I wasn't necessarily mad at him for blaming my mom. I was more mad that he didn’t think that I could write, you know, write and be honest about my feelings, like, that couldn’t have possibly come from me. So I was even more offended and that led me into a longer period of me not really respecting or talking to him. But, um, after a while, he got older, he got sicker, um, when we visited him I had this mindset of what does it hurt me to be nice to this man if he is going to die. Like what am I doing? Why am I wasting time being angry? He is not going to change what he did years ago or why it happened, and he always showed a desire, you know, he never missed a birthday or a holiday to call and check-in and a lot of times in between. Um, so that my dad was always present and the least that I could give him was just to, uh, to show up and say, “Hi, I love you, how are you doing,” [laughs] and keep it simple and that’s kinda how it was. Um, we never really had deep conversations, um, I think until, um, I was in college and understood a lot more about the black community and what a man– a black man growing up in the seventies and eighties and what they might have went through and the culture and, uh, what was expected of him and not expected of him and that could lead him to being in jail and, um, you know, it was all over my head until I really started understanding the impact of, uh, race on his life and, um, you know, his parents and what examples they set and his siblings and his community. Uh, and that’s not something I grew up in and had no context for it because I grew up in my white family. Um, and, uh, definitely in a sheltered way until my eyes were a little more open, but that led to the forgiveness part of the relationship with my father. Not just, like, this faking it being nice because he might die but now, it's like, who am i to judge when i had no idea what led you to be where you came to be. And, yeah, so that’s where we stand right now. It’s a love and compassion and empathy for whatever he might have gone through, and, you know, he’s gotten to meet, you know, my daughter and that’s a pretty big deal. He is still around, we say he is like this superhero nothing is going to kill him. He has had these heart attacks and strokes and anything you can think of but he is hanging on, he is still kicking and he just loves to be here, so yeah. 

21:05

I was kinda curious, uh, if you had any kind of early memories of starting school, um, and what early childhood school life was like for you?

Yeah, so, uh, I definitely don’t remember school in New Brunswick. I moved to South River, New Jersey when I was in fifth grade, so I definitely remember, um, I have a lot of memories of early school. I struggled quite a bit. I think I was diagnosed with a learning disability second or third grade, so pretty much from the get I was struggling and, um, I had to do visual processing. So school was rough in terms of academics, especially reading and spelling and things like that, um. But, uh, I remember having a lot of friends and never really getting along with teachers. I was, uh, always rebellious [laughs] and, uh, I’m sure it had something to do with how much I struggled with school and I had this teacher in second grade Ms. Caplet. It’s crazy how some people just stand out and she wasn’t angry or evil person, um, she was somebody that when I said something or messed up and I’m talking about an eight year old here [laughs]. Uh, I remember her literally picking up my pencil and my notebook and throwing it across the room. And I had no idea what I did. I don’t remember any other part of this story. I just had this tall, dark-haired lady just, uh, walking over to me, and taking my stuff, and throwing it and yelling in anger. And, uh– I became, uh– Much more focused on friends than academics. I was also an athlete, so pretty much since I was four I was playing soccer. It was my thing, it was my love, and it became pretty easy to focus on, you know, soccer playing, sports, meeting friends, having fun. Um, I definitely started getting into suspension detention around fourth grade, um, you know, passing notes in school and, you know, I'm sure even getting into some fights. I had, uh, this boyfriend, if you can call it that when you’re nine years old ten years old, that, um, you know, teachers would call the trouble maker so we would always get into it together picking on people. So we would always get into whatever– whatever, uh, was going to make us seem  more rebellious, and, uh, that was a pattern for a while. Things switched up a bit when I got into middle and high school and I started getting more involved in church and, uh, I think I got in a little less trouble, uh, other than maybe calling out on teachers if I thought that they were picking me out for no reason. Um, uh, that was something that continued to get me suspended through my entire, uh, grade school career [laughs].Um, but luckily that also came with some– soccer came with perks, so I was suspended for talking back to a teacher than, you know, suspension would start after the game day so I still got to play, like, you know, so there were some privileges there, school was always a struggle. By the time I got to high school I think I was in all mainstream classes. I think I had a couple classes that, um, like extra support which was a really big deal being in all special ed. Um, so that was a working progress to get up to that point. Yeah. 

What, um– During that time when you started– when you, kinda, started making that transition in schools, were there any particular subjects or things that started interesting you during that time?

Yeah absolutely. I definitely, um, the first thing I was able to get into the mainstream was math, and so I was a pretty, like, you know, math and then science and then history and then English or language arts came last in terms of moving into that mainstream in the areas where I needed extra support in high school as well. So math was a biggie, I loved it, um, it came a little easier for me than reading, and so that definitely started also boosting my confidence. When I was able to do well in one thing it kinda pushed me to some of the more mainstream classes. There was definitely some bullying when you are in some classes, especially middle school. Um, uh, and a lot of kids were, you know, there was this fine line where people were actually struggling academically and when people actually just didn’t want to deal with their behavior. Um, and– and so it was an interesting mix of kids in our classes and, um, and so that– it was also motivation to get out. Not wanting to be bullied, wanting to feel mainstream, but I guess once I got into, like, a mainstream English class they used to do these things like when everyone is reading a book and so every kid takes a turn reading a paragraph. And when there’s, like, two kids in front of me, “I have to go to the bathroom,” like, “I need a drink of water,” “can I got to the nurse?” [laughs] I needed to, uh, pretty often get out of having to read out loud in front of the class which was the most embarrassing and I think damaging to my self-esteem, um, uh, my confidence, uh, so I avoided that at all cost. Which probably led to getting into trouble and seeming like I was trying to get out of class behavior, cause I was. Yeah, but gym was a favorite [laughs]. I was not somebody who failed gym for not changing, which was what all of my friends were doing. 

Um, what was that, uh, you know, uh, that transition? Like, one of the biggest life transitions that we go through is puberty, that change, that kind of affects us physically and emotionally and psychologically. Do you have any kind of recollections around that time in your life?

I do, um, and, um, puberty, uh also coincides being towards the end of what was a few years of childhood sexual abuse and, uh, puberty was a very interesting weird phase for me and, um– I was actually abused by an older cousin, um, and, it was– It started about when I was nine or maybe ten and it went on for several years, and I am able to–You know, because you’re asking about puberty, I was fourteen, I remember because I was in eighth grade at the time, uh, and it was the time when I first started, not out loud, but not deliberately telling anyone, but started processing what had happened, um– and I remember going around one day, um, in middle school from, I think I must have asked some teachers, some peers, I even went to the nurse, um, and I remember asking, “Um if someone is like four years older than you, um and like you’re doing stuff, like, does it count as, like, you know, sex or does it count as, like, is it okay or is it not okay?” I remember walking around– it must have been a specific day or something had happened I don’t know what it was but it led me to walk around, you know, asking and hypothetically having these conversations with my peers, nurse, and the teachers and, um, I always thought my abuser was only four years older than me. Come to find out later he was much older. Um, and, uh, but, uh. It was a time when I don't know if that was, you know, if that contributed to when the abuse stopped. I don’t know if I got to the point of when I started to realize that the abuse was happening. Uh, and I contributed to it stopping, but puberty was a lot of me trying to figure out for myself what was going on with me, so much surrounded by sex. Even not so much around my abuse but even with peers, starting to talk about sex and have sex at fourteen, um, uh, getting boyfriends and starting rumors about each other and things like that. It was a big topic of puberty, it was a big, you know, um, a big deal at the time. And so it was one of those conversations that you just couldn’t get away from. Um, but, I played it cool [laughs]. I definitely didn’t disclose, um, disclose my abuse until much later in life, um. But, I still remember having those conversations, and I often find myself thinking back like why didn’t anyone ask more questions? Why didn’t anybody, you know, think that was strange or weird or odd? Was I a really good actor or, you know? Uh, or was it just too difficult to think about what that might have meant, uh, for this kid to be asking some of these questions and so, uh, yeah. That was puberty for me. It was a big figuring out period, um, along with, again that was around the same time I was in the church. Um, and, uh, there was a lot of talk about purity [laughs], like the complete opposite contrast of what was happening at school with my peers, and everything being about sex to everything being really centered around God and purity. I was in, you know, the Girl Scouts of the Christian church which was Pioneer Girls, um, and, you know, my mom was the leader and we had all these conversations. They brought up purity rings and, um, you know, some of the girls were like, “Ew!” to us who made dirty jokes at the time. Like, it was a really strange contrast from, you know, church life to, you know, the real world everyday and what was happening. It was an interesting, interesting dynamic. 

32:38

When, uh, when you, uh– when you would bring up these hypothetical situations or these conversations to either peers or adults in your life, do you remember any of their responses or how they would respond or? 

I, uh, I honestly don’t remember. I think they were just, you know, uh, making more jokes and comments and like so nonchalant, the idea of dating an older guy was, like, not a bad thing in a lot of my peers' eyes. I think I honestly tuned out whatever others said if they weren’t asking me what was wrong. I think really what I was looking for when people were asking some of the questions was really someone asking me questions and wanting to have a conversation with me and not just answer the question. To be honest, I think if they just answered the question, I tuned it out. I don’t think I really cared about the answer. So I definitely can’t remember what anyone said other than it probably wasn’t very significant if I didn’t remember it and it didn’t lead to anything. Um, I definitely dropped at that point the topic of my abuse didn’t come up again until college, and so–That’s a lie it did come up a little bit sooner but I still didn't disclose. Uh, yeah. 

And so, uh, you had mentioned that this transition for you– kinda transitioning into puberty but also processing it for yourself eventually led to the end of it. Had it ended cleanly or was it kind of a lingering thing that was going on in your life? 

Uh, it was definitely lingering. Uh, so the abuse started, uh– my mom is, uh– had always had an open door policy. So for family or friends who were struggling, our house was a safe place. Um, my family, my aunts and my uncle who lost their home at some point around that time when I was about nine or ten– and so my aunt, my uncle, and their three children, one was a little bit older so he didn’t move in with us frequently, so they had four kids. Um, all moved into our house. Uh, and so it’s a small, three bedroom house, but there were nine of us living here. So it was a crowded space, not to mention nine of us living here, lots of rabbits and they brought their whole family and pets with us. And so that was really the beginning of it. There were just a lot of close quarters and access to, um, to me. And, uh, they only lived with us for a few months, but, um, my cousin, uh, a younger cousin who is the same age as me, me and her were like best friends who were inseparable. This family lived in South River with us, and so, um, we spent a lot of time together. So even after we moved out, any time I was over there or they came over here that would be the thing that was expected. It definitely happened. It was lingering. Um, I– we went over there every morning for school, like, when mom had to go to work, she was a baker, so pretty early. So my mom would drop us off at my aunt's house and we would stay there until it was time to walk to school. So a lot of my memories were not even from the beginning but later on when we were at their house and, uh, um, uh, and the things that went on there, um. So it was definitely, I don’t remember the last time, I don't remember how it stopped or why, um, uh, I mean at some point he was over the age of eighteen and so I imagine there might have been other things going on in his life. And, um, uh, that could have contributed to it, it might have had nothing to do with me, my age, or my awareness of the time. I had vague memories of asking for things to stop once I got a little bit older, but none of it’s really clear, and so it was definitely gradual– Yeah.

Um, thank you for sharing all of that. Um, when, um– so when you got into high school, um, did you start, kind of like, you know, in those late teenage years did you start thinking about what– what you would be doing in your life? Like, what kinds of things were starting to interest you or were there directions that you were starting to take? 

Absolutely, I mean in high school I just wanted to be a jockey. I wanted to ride horses, it was like my dream

[laughs]

Once I was probably, like, twelve or thirteen, a little into high school. I was in youth group at church and, um, I had some amazing youth leaders. One, whose name was Ann, and she– I was really close and she was a social worker. Uh, and she told me she was a social worker and, uh, I think she is one of the biggest reasons I decided to become a social worker. I think I told her then I wanted to be like her. Uh, and that never left. I was convinced at that time that that was something I wanted to be. I wanted to be someone who supports people like she does and to help people like she does. And I didn’t know what her job entailed, I just knew how she supported me

What were some of the qualities about her that you remember?

Uh, um, I think– I mean obviously definitely the biggest listening skills. I had a lot to talk about at that age [laughs]and she would sit for hours and listen to me, she would pray for me, she would teach me, um, uh, she was just, uh, overwhelmingly kind and, uh, in her ability to listen but also just, you know, let me be me and not judge me. That was huge. I want to cry just thinking about her– Um– when things got really rough for me, she was, you know, she had her own family, husband, and kids but I was having a really rough time, she dropped everything, came over to my house, picked me up and drove me back to her place. And, like, let me just spend the night and not be okay for a little while. And so the idea of someone who would just drop everything to help, uh, it was life changing. And so that was the kind of stuff that she did that really motivated me and, uh, made me want to be that person for anyone who came my way– Yeah. 

39:50

Not expecting that to be the point I cried. 

No worries take your time. I, uh, I think then– and so my follow up question– you have had this experience with this significant individual. Like, how does that start framing things as you get older, like, what kinds of steps you can take to pursue different paths?

Yeah, uh, so, like, Ann who put the idea in my head, and definitely getting into high school, um, college was never really something that I thought about. I mean I said that I wanted to be a social worker, but I didn't realize that meant six years of college. Um, school, like I said, was not really my strong suit, and so– but around high school, um, struggling with mental health and, um, having a lot of contact with social workers there, therapist, school psychologist, school social workers, um, I continued to meet more people in the field that I really valued and felt like, um, just keep pushing me in that same direction. Um, it eventually got to asking, you know, how do you become a social worker and, um, I had a great guidance counselor. It’s very fun obviously doing work in the same area where you grew up, um, I got to ask my school social worker and guidance counselor how to get in this field and they helped me navigate getting into community college, getting connected with a special, you know, special education program there. Um, and then to again get to come back talking about the services they offer at my new programs or go consult clients that go to my same high school like, uh, it’s a weird full circle thing that happened there, but definitely a lot of connections. Not necessarily a lot of examples on how to become a social worker until I got to college. But, uh, a lot of motivation to keep pushing me in that direction, a lot of really awesome therapists and, uh, just support people that are just like, “This is what I am meant to do.” I was also that person with my friend group of– if something was going on I was on call 24/7 [laughs]. My phone was never on silent because, at any given time, one of my friends were struggling and they would call me and I would go across town to be with them and, um, that was something that, uh, that I started doing soon and it lead very naturally into the world that I do now– yeah.

Have you during this time, um, uh– were there any other kind of relationships occurring during this time like strong friendships or romantic relationships?

Yes, it was high school I mean [laughs] but, I mean, there’s a lot of turning points in my life and so many of them feel like they overlap, but yes I met my friend– girlfriend, uh, when I was 15 she was someone on the soccer team. The first, like, “Oh my god I am so in love,” naturally this came with some opposition to the part of me that was still very much within the church. There was a lot of conflict, uh, you can imagine there, uh. But there, uh. She was my first, uh, I mean I had a boyfriend if you could call him that, you know, before, you know, before that point. But, you know, the first person that I can say that I was in love with, um, uh, we spent a lot of time together. According to everyone else we were best friends, our relationship was very secret. None of her family or my family knew for a very long time that there was anything going on. But eventually, at some points I ended up telling people because I was really struggling with, “Oh my God this is a sin I can’t do this. Um, but oh my God am I in love and I can’t ignore this.” And, uh, I think that was a big source of a lot of my struggle with mental health and a lot of internalized homophobia and self-hatred, um, uh, at one point I came out to people at church, um, uh, complicated relationships. One of my youth leaders, Patty, we were also really close. She was also the first person I told at church that I was attracted to women and that I was in a relationship, and I am sure I felt attracted to her for a reason you call it “gaydar” whatever it might be. Um, at the time she didn’t disclose, but now I know she is someone who identifies as an ex-gay, um, Christian, so I came out to her. And that lead to, uh, the next time my assault came up but, uh, it led to really informal conversion therapy-type situations where she got another ex-gay to come talk to me, we went on long walks around the park trying to figure out why I can possibly have these feelings, why I’m gay and, um, really uh, uh, digging and digging in a way that, at the time, you know, they are trying to help. I don’t want to have these feelings, I don’t want to be, you know, I want to be what God wants me to be and, um, this whole dynamic was happening. It was extremely painful, it was extremely damaging, um, uh, and not healthy at all. And, uh, ended ultimately with me being kicked out of the church eventually. Patty had told the youth pastor and he told him that I was blaspheming, and that is one of the most unforgivable sins because I know what I'm doing is wrong, and she decided to do it anyway, so she passed that message along to the youth pastor and when I was– um– I might have been 16 at that point, and they sat me down at a Wednesday night session and I was at church I mean five times a week like it was– It was very much my entire life and community other than maybe soccer, um, so, uh. And they told me that I had to leave, but if I changed my mind I was welcomed back. That same night I also had a best friend at the time, Danielle, and she was extremely important to me, extremely close to me, we, um– uh– we were inseparable. We met only about a year– a year and a half before that. She had been flown out from California because she had changed her life around. She was getting out of trouble with people out there and I was going to be her guide to Jesus and we got really close. But that night I also saw Patty and other youth leader’s wife talking to Danielle and they all came out crying and I knew what that meant. By the evening when Danielle dropped me off back home she told me that she could also not be my friend anymore until I decided to come back to church. Um, and so in an evening a lot ended. All those youth leaders that I talked about were huge and influential, my support group, everything, the palace I spent the majority of time outside school and soccer was gone. Um, so naturally I ran to my girlfriend's house Alex and then, um, I stayed there. I did not go home because I was terrified that somebody told my mom, [laughs] um, and so I avoided her at all cost, um, uh. So that was, uh, there were a few really big relationships that at the time that, uh, um, were extremely amazing but, at the same time, shattered in a pretty short period of time. Um, uh. And so I eventually walking home to get a change of clothes and my mom caught me walking down the street, told me to get in the car, and that my youth pastor had outed me and told her and, um, it was a long conversation I don't want to have, um, and, yeah so that was– And Alex was really mainly the main relationship in my life for a majority of high school much until my senior year when I started dating other people and we had broken up. And still, ‘til this day, we are great friend with some serious periods of not talking at all [laughs]. But, um, I think one of the most influential people in my life and definitely someone who is very important to me. 

49:22

Uh, I was curious. This isn’t a question about your identity at that time, but more of a question about how you responded to the push back you were getting about how others were responding to your identity. So I was kind of curious how you would articulate this 15, 16 year-old version of yourself not going along with the pushback?

It was a mixed bag. Um, I think I talked a lot about earlier on the difference between my community at school versus my church community. Um, and I think that because of how much time I spent at school I had such an equal influence of, um, of what I would identify as just supportive people. Um, and gay people and across the spectrum and so– I went back and forth quite a bit when I talked to people at church and they were like, “Cheyenne. This is a sin. Stop spending time with your friends at school, eat lunch with somebody else, um, don’t surround yourself with these people, you know, go to soccer and then just go home.” Um, I– I definitely took it all in and listened and, to be honest, I went back to my gay friends and I said some awful things. I told them that they deserve to go to hell. I loved them, “I love you, but I think you deserve an eternity burning in Hell.” It was awful. You know, it eats me alive because I think the people that helped me to survive that period in time were the people that I was also hurting with my words and the way that I was viewing myself and them based on the Bible which is what I believed at the time. But I think because, uh, I also had that– by the time, you know– I came out to church first, I got kicked out, then I decided to come out to some of the people at school and teachers and everyone like, “Cheyenne we know.” [laughs] “I know, it’s about time, welcome to the game, welcome to the party that was for you a while back.” I mean it was excruciating, it was just such a– Like, complete opposite spectrum to one half of my being and everything that felt I was a Christian, and then being gay and, you know, caring deeply for this person as well as aw man their friends. And so I think, um, having to be so supportive, even when I was not so supportive of them, um, really allowed me to fight back against, you know, what I was hearing from the other side and ultimately, you know, being able to come to terms with being kicked out of the church and, you know, at first understanding why they did it like, “Yeah, I get it. I can’t practice what I preach,” and, you know, so I understand. Then to the period of “Oh my God, that was messed up.” Like, in anger at the church. There was this gradual period where my friends just let me be and they supported me the whole time and that just wasn’t what I was getting, you know, in the same– at the same level. Or, you know, there were exceptions to it when I was in the church. Like, yes, they were truly supportive and loving and listening unless, you know, it was about things that they deemed to be not okay or appropriate, um, and so it was just weird and painful. 

Um, uh, the church response you had mentioned– one of the individuals who was a social worker herself who kind of influenced your journey in that direction. How did that relationship shift?

Uh, I mean pretty much all relationships with pretty much anyone in the church were pretty severed. I attempted to reach out and contact people, I would send messages or asked to get together and it may have happened even a couple of times, um, where people were getting together and having conversation, and especially with Daneielle, my best friend at the time, when I was like, “Please I just need someone to be there. I just need someone to talk.” And then it got to a point where she was like, “I can’t,” you know, she just really cut me off. Some of the youth leaders thought, um– when I wasn’t going to church, unless I was reaching out, they didn’t reach out to me, that didn’t check up on me. That really stopped and, you know, I think about it. I’ve seen and talked to almost all of them, you know, pretty recently, like, they all know I have children, I am friends with them on Facebook for some of them, um– uh, the relationships have changed, uh, I have contact with almost all of them who I would have– I didn’t talk to in a while. I was very angry with them at the time. Um, the only person who I really had a conversation with is Patty who was, um, the first person that I came out to and was ultimately responsible for me getting kicked out of church. Um, we have the most contact than anybody else from the church but it came with a lot of conversation about what happened and, uh, her apologizing for the way she handled it even if she still has her same stance, um, uh, we have a really love-hate relationship. I mean she voted for Trump and that was a big rift again, um, so we go back and forth with how much energy and time I give her in my life, um even though I obviously love her and I care about her. She is someone who is important to me, but someone who I also need to keep a distance from because of how much she’s hurt me. Uh, and is really unable to see sometimes what the impact of her words are, votes, or her views. So most of them I don’t talk to but they all know where I am at today and they all, um, yeah. 

55:57

This question is me asking you now, the adult social worker version of yourself, and it’s kind of a policy question, but you, kind of, used the term conversion therapy– kind of informal conversion therapy and I was curious. That exeperience– I mean if a young person came to you with that experience, does the new state law banning conversion therapy– will that be applicable to a person in that same circumstance?

Um, so [sigh] the law of course bans formal conversion therapy. I one thousand percent believe that informal conversion versions of it are happening every single day in almost every church that holds the belief that mine did. Um, I think that, um, even Patty who I, um, mentioned– what I deemed as somebody who was, you know, trying to use similar tactics and techniques that were really damaging. I mean, I really got to a place of hating myself, uh, and questioning everything about me and who I am. Um, through that process. I mean she still believes in conversion therapy, she still thinks that if someone says they want to change then they should be allowed to seek help doing that. Um, uh, and, uh, you ask a 14 year old who wants to please their parents and God, who is terrified of being sent to Hell to burn forever and all eternity, they are going to say, “Yes.” [laughs] And even for people older than that. I mean, the power that the fear of God has over people is, you know, what outweighs so much. So uh, [sighs] uh, I’m disgusted by the idea of conversation therapy. It is, you know, it has led to so many suicides, self harm, and crippling depression. Uh, and people who could otherwise be leading beautiful healthy lives if they were just sent the right message. And so, uh, as a professional it is something that I know will actively fight against every step of the way and every opportunity I have, though also something I make pretty clear, I used to work with teens. In the early years I used to work with the Center for Empowerment, um, which is a sexual violence program. The majority of my work was in, um, intensive outpatient programs which is pretty much group therapy for teens and adults and, uh, I almost always worked with the adolescents. They were my favorite groups of people, um, and so of course I ran across tons of LGBTQ or queer youth with really unhappy parents, um, and who made comments or questions. And in terms of educating these parents about the damage of their words can be– so being, you know, having to educate parents about, you know, how you respond, what to say, what words not to use, the way that you talk about this with your children, um– Uh. I had parents that would sit there and say “It’s disgusting,” or “It’s so unnatural,” in front of their kid who is really struggling, and its awkward having to be that person, especially as a queer person when it just comes off as me being bias, um, but to talk about and be brave enough to tell parents what is and what isn’t okay if you want your kid to heal because they are struggling with their mental health, which is why you brought them to me, then we need to work on the behaviors that we’re tellng them to change. And so, it’s something I feel like I ran into a lot and, um, I don’t know if all the parents had the resources to send their children into conversion therapy, or else they wouldn’t be in my room at the time. They would have been off at some church who does their own therapy which is, or counseling, and which it is such an unregulated term anyone can call themselves, you know, a counselor and therapist without the criteria. And so it is a frequent occurrence in the church where people are seeking guidance from people who are not trained professionally, um, and doing really damaging stuff. 

Um, thank you. Um, you had mentioned the night that the church, kind of, asked you to leave and then your mom found you. What was– what was her response or what has been, kind of, that relationship based on that?

Yeah, so, um, [laughs] her response, I– my mom had already asked me several times before this point if I thought that I was gay. Um, I remember at least two occasions when we were in the car and she asked these questions, “No, no, no.” So I think that it was something that was already on her brain and obviously confirmed, um, after getting that call. When I was walking down the street she yelled at me and she said, “Get in the car,” like she was upset, um, and I think it was because I told her that I was going to be at youth group that night and so and so was driving me, but obviously I was at Alex’s house and not at youth group because I had been kicked out of the church. I think that’s where a lot of the anger was coming from, and she asked me pretty nonchalantly “Tell ‘em about Alex.'' I am sure I was very vague and not wanting to give any detail out of shock about it. Um, we didn’t have a lot of conversations. Um, I remember, like, my mom was obviously– was still a Christian who also believed this was a sin and not okay, you know, um, in, you know, God’s eyes, and so there were definitely conversations about if she would ever be able to come to my wedding, um– and– but I avoided the conversation at all cost. I was not– Like, I mentioned I was not wanting to go into deep feelings with my mom because she would be emotional and I didn’t want to be the reason for that, um. So we didn’t talk a lot about it. Her reaction stood with me. I remember telling friends and family and people later that my mom said that she might not be able to go to my wedding or, like, you know. And it’s also still a story I tell people today when obviously I am married now and my mom made my cake, she was at my wedding, she loves me. Um, she and my brother left the church when I got kicked out. Um, I think she went a few more times after that but, um– Uh. As much as she believed it to be a sin she also did not agree with how they handled it. Um, and so I think she was also in her own process of what that meant and she left the church although she identified as Christian for a very long time. Um, and she didn’t return until I brought her back to a different church when I was in my twenties. And now she is very much involved again with some of the same people that left the other church, so that youth leader, Ann, that I talked about goes to a new church that my mom attends, as well as a couple of youth leaders that I knew there who chose to make the switch hopefully because they understood the toxicity that was happening within the church. Um, but I think it also probably leads to the opportunity to speak to someone again, like I said, it’s how our relationship stands now. Um, but my mom and I are still extremely close. She was always very supportive of every girlfriend that I brought home, treated them as her own, loved them, and was really good about keeping her thoughts and feelings and ideas about it to herself until she was in a place that she was super supportive. And then she came to gay pride with me. She never wants to go again, she did not like it, but [laughs]. It was a bit much for her but she tried, and she came, and she is extremely supportive. And so, that was a big relief. Yeah. 

01:04:57

Um, so as you are, kind of, making your way through high school and thinking about what’s next, what was your process of thinking about what’s happening after high school and what comes next?

Yeah, um. So in the last couple of years in high school I, like I said, I was struggling with mental health significantly, so I was having my own IOP’s in and out of the hospital. So the idea of college really seemed like it wasn’t a thing. I barely passed high school. I took my SAT’s and got awful scores because standardized tests is a sham. Um, and so I had every intention of going to Rutgers, my mom worked at Rutgers my entire life. She went to Rutgers herself. I was going to go for free for undergrad and so that was always a plan in terms of, like, this unspoken thing. You go for free, that's where I’m going to go. Um, I never finished my application to Rutgers. I didn’t want to send them in my SAT scores. I didn’t want them to face rejection. Eventually it got too late so I went to the guidance counselor for Middlesex County College which turned out to be the best thing in the world. I got into a program there called Project Connections, you know, kids with special ed. Um, and so by being a part of that program that provided mandatory free tutoring. Which meant I always had somebody. For the whole first few years of school or college I attended all of my classes. I was playing soccer, which means I couldn’t miss a class, I couldn't get anything lower than a B. I was done with classes in the earlier in the day and get all my homework done, so it was a lot of structure that didn’t exist when I didn’t care at all in high school. Uh, I was extremely motivated and, on top of that, I had this program that really kept me accountable for showing up, and I had tutors that would help me with my homework and keep me on top of things and I can go to if I needed help. And were so non-judgemental because it was a peer-run program so these were kids who also struggled and, um, were ready to help, um, so it was really, um, a big change. And so at Middlesex I played on their soccer team for two years and that was a huge, um, fun, cool, different, traveling, uh, you know, a tiny little taste of what some people get to experience playing college sports, uh, obviously it’s county college, and it’s the small leagues, but it was awesome and, um, uh. I had a really great team and people who made college feel exciting and new and great and ultimately, I mean, it took me three years because I had to take extra courses because I was in special ed so they had to get me up to speed with how far I was behind, um, but three years at middlesex and I graduated with honors and I transferred to Rutgers for their social work program and I graduated there with honors, got into the advanced standing program and did one year of grad school, and I got my Master’s in the same time as most people do even though I spent an extra year in the beginning. And so, um, uh, it was also a big shift for me in the world of academia and what I saw as my potential for being a professional from a whole different view, um. But I had the right resources and support. I mean I got my textbooks on CD, which is like, if I would have had that option and accommodation in high school and middle school, how successful I could have been is unreal. Because it wasn’t that I didn’t want to take in the material, learning it was just so hard it wasn’t reasonable. Uh, I didn’t have the time when it would take me five hours to read the homework when another kid can do it in an hour. Um, and so, uh, it was a game changer. Project Connection in Middlesex County College, getting me the extra time I needed, books on CD, the support, uh. After my second year of Middlesex I didn’t have a tutor anymore, but I didn’t need it. I had all the accommodations that I needed and the motivation and confidence now to do the rest on my own and know that I can do it. Uh, so Project Connections changed a lot in terms of my direction in the professional world and what I thought I could do. 

1:09:48

So, so you had this, kinda like, shift, these are my world not yours, but you had a shift in mindset right?

Yes

In terms of what might be possible. So then, what are you starting– you know, I find it interesting, not a lot of teenagers, not a lot of fifteen year olds say I want to be a social worker. 

[laughs]

It’s not a common– it’s not a common thing that I hear from teenagers that I work with on a regular basis. So I guess what my question is, is what does having that kind of mindset lead you to and were you starting to develop— maybe here’s a better question. Were you starting to develop a sense of who you wanted to work with and for? Like, who you wanted to be in support of as you were making your way through social work. 

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean I think from the early stages I was like I want to help kids like me. Like, I want to be a school social worker, I want to help teens, that’s where I struggled the most and that’s where I feel like I needed the most support. So I think that definitely influenced how much I wanted to work with teens and IOP’s and I was also really interested in law. There was a big part of me that wanted to be a cop. But I was terrified of the idea of a gun [laughs] and so that is what ruled that out for me. I was like well I could still help people without holding a gun. [laughs] That's social work. So I was still very much interested in law and, um, once I got to my first internship, I took a lot of criminal justice classes while I was in college as well. Um, paired with my social work stuff. So I was like I want to be in the legal world. Also, helping people. Uh, and, uh. My first internship was at the NJ Training School for Boys. That was a juvenile detention center, uh, and I got to, you know, help teens that were in need but were also caught up in the law and learned a lot about myself and what I wanted to do, what I didn’t want to do. Um, and that social work field placement is what ultimately got me to talk about my abuse and report to law enforcement for the first time. So there were a few shifts of my idea of what I wanted to do with my career, and my field placements, um, and my education definitely ebbed and flowed and led me to where I am today. Yeah. 

I was curious if you wanted to speak a little bit more about what that reporting process meant for you?

Yeah, um, it was a pretty big deal and probably the thing that most closely– most directly led to me being in the position that I have right now at the Center for Empowerment. But, um, yeah, I was placed at this detention center, and one of my first clients was a kid who was fourteen and he was in for sexually assaulting his ten-year-old sister. And I think I remember saying earlier on that I always thought that my perpetrator was four years older than me. And so my abuse starting around 10, it ended up being a really big trigger. Um, now I hadn’t really thought about it other than deliberately trying to tell Patty about what in my past lead me to be gay, uh ,I was actively not sharing at that point in time but also, you know, at this point it’s not something I thought about frequently, but i found myself journaling afterwards, thinking about my own abuse history and, um, in that same time period I was workng at Wawa and one of my favorite places. I worked there for eight years while I was in college and after but I was doing a shift at Wawa and my uncle had came in, the father of my abuser and he goes, and he says well, “So and so is turning thirty today.” And I was like, wait. I‘m twenty three. He’s not four years older than me, he’s seven. He was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, when this was happening. Um, and that just gave me chills. Like, it was– because it was fresh in my brain when I was working with my clients, and for this moment to have happened, it just changed everything. I started talking to a therapist, um, and I kinda started processing what happened. Um, it went from being something that felt not okay to something that should've known better and it was very much illegal. You know, my client who’s fourteen maybe he made a mistake, but someone who is seventeen or eighteen, maybe not. And that was a big shift, and that was something that got me feeling a lot more concerned, and I decided to talk to another cousin, his sister, who I was pretty close to. She was the first person I told, and immediately she was like “I knew it.” And she shared about her son who was four or five at the time and how uncomfortable she gets with him around her older brother, um, it was a catalyst for me being really concerned if he knew better at the time and someone who has access to more children, if I don’t say anything, you know. We are leaving it up to another victim to potentially say something. So I checked with her to make sure that she was comfortable with what that would mean, they live in the same house which means DCPP was going to be called, they were going to go to her house and probably talk to her entire family and children, um. It was a really big decision. But I had talked to her, I reached out to– I’m pretty sure I called the hotline for the program I work for now. I didn’t recognize anybody of course, but, uh, ultimately I landed with VPVA at Rutgers since I was a student at Rutgers and I got an advocate there.

Sorry could you just articulate what that is?

Yeah, um, VPVA is the Violence Prevention Victim Assistance Program which is a sexual violence and dometic violence agency at Rutgers that serves students and staff and faculty.

[Editor’s Note: The Office for Violence Prevention and Victim Assistance is located at Rutgers University and offers services to prevent violence within the community and provide support for survivors. The office combines direct services with programming, training, and development of policy in order to change attitudes towards violence and enact change.]

Um, and so I heard about the program because I am in social work school and VPVA does presentations, um, I was very aware and involved with some of the stuff that they were doing, SCREAM Theater, the whole nine yards. Um, so I knew that they were a resource and so I reached out and I got to ask some questions about what the legal process looks like, what to expect, is anything going to happen thirteen or fourteen years later. Uh, and just having that support really made a difference and I got to just talk through it before telling the people that were really going to freak out like my entire family. Um, cause you mess up the dynamics when something like this comes out and, like I said, my mom's side of the family who were all extremely close, a lot of us are close in age so, um, I had a few more conversations. I decided to, you know, I wanted my mom to know before I went to law enforcement because it was really important that she just not be blindsided by it, but I also couldn’t tell anyone else in my family because then they might tip him off and the element of surprise is lost and law enforcement has a harder time trying to do what they have to do. Um, so I wrote a letter to my mom because, again, I can't have these conversations in person and I called my cousin that I had told, um, already. Like, “Listen I am going to tell my mom today and she’s going to need somebody to process this with, um, so I need you to plan to meet her somewhere and talk. She is planning to come home at this time, she’ll get the letter, but she is going to have to meet you at this time.” So she did that, we planned to do a walk around the track and my mom had no idea, but once she got home I went and I left the house so I wouldn’t be there when she got the letter and I met my best friend, um, Amanda and I told her what was happening. So I had a support person at the time and I made sure my mom had someone else to go to once she found out. Um, and so I got home again, there were tissues all over the floor and the letter was gone so I knew she had gotten it. Um, we didn’t talk much about it. She hugged me when she got home, she said she was sorry. I didn’t really want to talk more but I knew she had been crying and I was hoping she had a lot of time to talk to my cousin about it. Um, and the next day I went to the police station, um, and I asked for a female detective mostly because Detective Novack is one of the local, uh, police officers that I had known since childhood. I have always seen her around time and I was like that’s who I want to talk to. Uh, she wasn’t available, they only had a male and I was like fine whatever no turning back now. Um, and they took the information, they are very familiar with my cousin’s family so it wasn’t a shocker. Um, and they called the prosecutor's office and one of the first things they did was have me call him and say, “Hey, this is what you did.” They were recording the phone call and right away he started apologizing. Basically they had a confession in their hands, um, which you know made things a little easier going forward for me, like, answering the question of what is going to happen years later. Um, that was followed by a billion court dates over a year going back and forth, um. I wouldn’t say it was justice. Technically he was only charged as a juvenile because he wouldn’t admit to doing it when he actually turned eighteen. Um, and so the most he was looking at was probation for the assault. However, I said I was working at Wawa at the time, and he had the nerve to come into Wawa and walk to my register and have me ring him up in the middle of our court process which was obviously against judges orders, which allowed for getting nine months in jail. So that ended up being tied into it and it felt like the most I was going to get. But, unlike so many survivors, to see your perpetrator actually put in handcuffs and go to jail for any point in time is such a rare thing. Um, so I was obviously grateful, and that was its own process. And I know there are programs called VCCO, Victims of Crime Compensation which I get to tell all the survivors that I work with and how helpful they can be. It’s a program that helps pay for therapy and helps you through that process to, um, give you back some of the stuff that you lost through that process. I was extremely fortunate to have the support system I had. To have people that I trusted, and to be one the very few people who get some level of justice and accountability for what had happened to them. And that, you know, within a year with that happening, I was volunteering for the Middlesex County Center for Empowerment and we trained together to become advocates and I was an advocate for three years before the awesome opportunity to come on and be in my position now which is running the advocate program. So I get to recruit and train, um, a lot of our, all of our confidential sexual violence adovacates to go and be that support person for other survivors. And during the workday I can be that person. Answering the hotline, answering those questions, walking people through the legal process. Um, being their support person when they had a really rough day in court, or disclosing to the police, or having trouble with their family, things like that. It is beyond rewarding, um, and it goes right back to the beginning of why I got into social work. I received that support for somebody that made me want to do it for someone else. And I get to do it time and time again. I mean, it’s, uh, it’s awesome, yeah. 

01:24:59

Thank you, that is a very detailed fanatic, kind of, account of what that process is and what the meaning of that process is. Um, my, uh, my question is, what is, or has become, or what of your personal life would you be willing to share. What is your personal life now, what is your family structure now?

Yeah, um, so the most immediate and important family structure is, I have an amazing wife. Her name is Adele, she is fantastic, she is Norwegian [laughs]. So she is from a whole different community, culture, and country from here but also, um, one of the biggest things we have in common is the history in the church. Um, and so we had very similar experiences in our past that led to a lot of common goals and values, um, and I mean I met my wife and within six months we were married, uh, and four years later we had our first kid and we are pregnant with our second. Um, and so I also have a beautiful daughter. Her name is Aria, and, um, she is everything, I’m sure every single parent says this, but everything I could have ever imagined. She is perfect and fun and funny and energetic and, um, way beyond her years already. And, um, like I said, we currently live with my mom who I am still pretty close to and with. My brother and I are relatively close as well. Um, in terms of extended family, I don’t really have contact with my aunt and uncle because of how much they supported their son through the legal process and me just not feeling supported by them. It’s complicated. But I mean the rest of the family knows now it’s not a secret, uh, and most of my family is extremely supportive of me and the only relationships that were really impacted were those of my aunts who before this was really close to, and now, you know, I just keep my distance. You know, you lost trust and respect and it’s hard to come back.

How did you meet your wife? 

Oh [laughs] it’s a really fun story. Um, we met at Gay Pride in 2016. Um, I had a really bad day at work and I wanted to do something fun and be around gay people. You know, I had gone to pride pretty much every year before that, but I was alone and it was, like, four o’clock in the evening, Pride was over. But I was just, like, I just needed to go. Like, I am going to go to the movies or I am going to go to Pride but it’s important because I was so close to not going. But I was so close to New Brunswick. I parked illegally at Rutgers, and I hopped on the train, and I went to the city with a half dead phone, um. And somebody had told me about these gay bars in the city. And I have a thing with phoenixes. Um, and there’s a gay bar in the city called Phoenix. I was like okay well that’s where I am going to go. I had no idea where to go. I am not familiar with the city, like, at all. But I asked a bunch of people and they were really helpful and supportive, so I found my way to this bar and I got a drink and I danced a lot and then I saw my wife walk in the door. Um, and she caught my eye, um, we absolutely exchanged glances and I didn’t see her for a little while after that until she was standing by herself at the bar, and I did this cliché thing that I literally never done in my life before. I walked up and I asked her if I could buy her a drink and she said yes. Only time in my life it’s happened and the last time it will ever happen obviously. But she said yes, um, and we had a really long night dancing and talking so much. I think we told each other so much of our life stories in one night, um. It was a bit wild, um, and obviously we really clearly hit it off. But two in the morning I got on the last train back to head to New Jersey. The following week on Friday I went back to the city to meet her again and we continued to hit it off. And three months later we were engaged, six months later we were married. Um, yeah. It was amazing and so I feel like I probably told everybody I don’t drink. I am not going to meet somebody at a bar. That’s literally the place that I met my wife: at a gay bar named Phoenix in the city on a really random night because I wasn’t even planning on going to the city. So it was pretty incredible. So we go back every year for our anniversary which is also Pride so it was just a really fun thing to do, um. Something that I don’t think any one of us would ever forget obviously, um, but also just solidified phoenix in my life. I have a phoenix tattoo, my soccer team was named Phoenix, the bar I met my wife, um, my cat is named Phoenix. One of the summer camps, you know, uh, cabins I went to and worked in was named Phoenix. So it was a recurring theme and I should have known I was going to meet my wife that night.

 [laughs]

 [laughs]

Um, I’m kind of curious, uh, the kind of, you know, the kind of follow-up question I have in terms of the professional side of it. Are there any you as a professional working in the field– Are there any specific policy things that you’re, kinda, advocating for or policy things that you are hoping will change or have changed that will influence the field in any way? 

So the biggest thing is going to be the topic, and it’s the topic today, and something I am sure I will only grow more passionate about, are the policies and the grand scheme of things but also at every single individual program level is working to improve our outreach and support of survivors of color and people of color across the board. Um, when we are talking about in specifically the field of sexual violence, um, having to interact with law enforcement is part of the process is a really big deal and the majority of our survivors that we see, um, will choose not to engage in law enforcement. And that’s why there are people of color and not– and I think that number drastically increases. You are not likely to go to the police if you are a person of color and, you know, we are an underserved population that is also at higher risk for so many things. And so fortunately we are in a day and age of 2021, 2020 where it’s in the spotlight. You know, we are talking about how we can do right and do better by, um, our people of color that we are reaching out to, that we are serving. Making sure that they feel comfortable with coming to us, and they feel safe and comfortable with us being the people that walk them into a law enforcement building and support them through that process and whatever it means and what kind of treatment they’ll receive. So that is a policy involving– improving services and doing right by our people of color is a biggy right now for me, and naturally through the events of the past year. It’s just at the forefront of all of our minds, um, but also they are just still, um– A conversation that I was having today about statistics and how so many of our programs, so many resources out there in general, they use statistics to say, “Hey, okay we are going to give money to this population or this thing and it’s based on statistics that don’t accurately represent so many people.” Right? And so, you know, so many of the services that are provided by every agency, every organization, especially those in government, I mean we are a county facility. Um, uh, we technically work for the government, um, things are skewed. They are skewed for white heterosexual women in terms of sexual vioelnce work particularly, but that’s something that I feel passionate about and want to change and want to improve. It’s something I think we can all do better. Whether it’s changing the way that we talk, changing the way that we look at people. Changing the way that we approach and invite people, um, and changing the way that we teach our partners, our partner organizations. I work a lot with law enforcement and nurses so I feel very– a sense of responsibility to make sure they know how to make sure our survivors feel safe with them, and some people just don’t know and some people shouldn't have their jobs. So it’s a heavy task. Yeah. 

Thank you. My kind of, um– one of the wrap up questions I usually ask is if there is any question you were expecting to be asked during this interview that you haven't been asked yet. And it’s not a trick question, if there isn’t anything that’s fine, if there is something that you think that you were expecting to be asked that hasn’t been asked yet. 

I think so. Thinking about some of the bigger life events when talking about things that influence my life or impact my life, um. Three years ago I was diagnosed with something called Pulmonary Arterial Hypertension or P-A-H. And it’s one of those super crazy rare things that nobody gets, um, but my wife is in the field of film and we went to volunteer at the Sundance film festival at Utah. And some sort of crazy freak coincidence, the altitude there is significantly higher than the sea level that we have here. Um, and brought out symptoms for me where I thought it was altitude sickness where everyone else did as well. But after two days of not being able to walk, I’m not even joking, like, from five feet from the bed to the bathroom. I couldn’t breathe. My heart was pounding out of my chest. I’m an athlete, I am used to not being able to walk. Um, without being out of breath. I ended up going to the ER and then being transferred to another ER after them basically thinking that I was in heart failure and, uh, about to die. And I was diagnosed with this thing that, um, at the time was terrifying. You know, they had a pharmacist come in and give me pamphlets on this disease and everything said, hmm, “Average life expectancy: two point eight years after diagnosis.” Obviously we have passed that point. It’s been three years and I am doing very well. We are not concerned about me dying any time soon. Um, but the reality for this condition is typically diagnosed much later in life and much more serious life events, but it was a really terrifying moment, and genuinely not knowing that if this is something that is going to get better once I get back to New Jersey. I am not at this altitude anymore, is this permanent damage? What's going to happen? Uh, so we got back to New Jersey. I have a specialist now that I see in the city who is top notch. But we got this so early and my wife and I were talking about having children pretty soon after we got married and I always planned on having children and carrying our children. Um, but the mortality rate for this condition is seventy percent. So seventy percent of women who have this condition die shortly after giving birth. And so this trip to Utah literally saved my life, because we would not have known and I would have given birth and might have had that 2.8 morality life span given to me had I been diagnosed after childbirth and much damage and stress would have been put on my heart or my lungs. And so I expected to talk about that, and obviously that led to figuring out how my wife and I were going to have children, and what that would look like, and how our plans changed, and they have. Now she has the burden of having all of the ten children that we want, um [laugh]. Which is a lot to ask of her but, hey, I didn’t help my diagnosis, so. It’s, uh, yeah, that was a biggie. It was something that I think it felt really crazy at the time, but I often forget about it because I generally feel good most days, and I do something as simple as take a pill everyday and I get to not think about it until I go to support groups for my condition, and the reality is, you know, we lose people every year in the support group, and most people are on twenty-four-hour oxygen and much dire conditions than I. But it leads me feeling grateful that I have continually, regardless of how many things I felt were difficult in my life, been given so much to be grateful for and to leave me in the position to make such a difference in this world. And that contributes so much to how I view my role as a social worker, not just at my current job, but my future jobs, my past jobs, and then genuinely who I am as a person and what I do in my personal life to make a difference. Um, because I have been given so much that I never want to stop giving back. And my work just gives me an opportunity to do that more.

I think that question you asked yourself and the response you gave yourself is, kind of, a great ending thought in terms of that. You kind of answered my next two follow up questions and just how you relate to that work. 

01:41:45