A lack of family support led this Nielson Street regular to face houselessness after several years of living through a variety of precarious situations. They describe the experiences that they went through while they were houseless. They are currently residing in a shelter and trying to rebuild their life.

ANNOTATIONS

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TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Kristin O’Brassill-Kulfan 

New Brunswick, New Jersey

February 24, 2020

Transcription by Megan Shook

[00:00:01]

Okay. For the purposes of recording, it is, um, February 24th and I'm having a conversation with a woman in New Brunswick at Elijah's Promise on Nielsen Street. It is approximately 1:50 in the afternoon. Where would you like to begin?

Um, anywhere–whatever questions you have.

Well, um, would you like to tell me a little bit about where you’re– where you were born, where you’re from–

Oh, I was born overseas in Paris, France originally. Um, I was seven when I moved here to New Jersey. Um, so– but I have dual citizenship, so I’m French and American. My grandfather was American, so my mother's father– so I'm dual citizen. I feel very 50/50– had because I was so young when I moved here. And so I did grow up in Jersey, but also still feel very European, especially having, like I just mentioned before, having recently, uh, lived in Europe. I wasn't in France, but I was living for five years straight in London and so– and just my upbringing, like, was still very French. So– yeah.

What was your childhood like?

[00:01:10]

What was my childhood like? Uh–it was a rough childhood to be honest. And when, like I also sorta touched on earlier, I think people struggle with homelessness oftentimes, you know, sort of at the core of that is a lack of, uh, family support. And the reason I mentioned that is because it sort of all ties in together really. Like, my childhood growing up wa– was rougher than I think I even realized at the time because, when you grew up a certain way, that's all you know. But realistically, you know, it– it is this sort of a touchy subject for me and, like, I won't talk about easily but, like, I grew up in abuse, no deep abuse. So, um, it's something that, like, you know, I've had to learn, overcome and sort of like a lifelong process anyway. Never– It's not the kind of thing you ever get over entirely. Um, but yeah, so sort of to put it in a nutshell, I mean it was good and bad and I can't say it was all bad, but– yeah.

Well where would you prefer to start then?

Uh–well I guess I'm not sure exactly what it is that you really want to know. So, yeah.

Sure. Okay, um, would you like to talk about how you got to New Brunswick, or–

[00:02:31]

Oh, sure like what led to my homelessness to be honest. Cause that’s a really good question. The main thing that I thought would be the focus. Um, cause I– I mentioned that recently I was living overseas and, to be quite honest, a big part of that is just moving from one country to another after so many years. Like, just reestablishing yourself in a country where you haven't lived in so many years is, you know, a process and it's, you know, just any move in itself is a big stressor, let alone from one country to another, especially in the circumstances I was in. Specifically, again, what I mentioned is lack of family support, you know, with no help whatsoever. Um.

May I ask how old you are?

Older than I look [chuckles]. I'm going to be 42 this week. Yeah, I say that because I know people always are, like, blown away when I say how, like, and to be honest, I do feel younger as well. But– so in that– that is not easy for me. It's like no one, like I'm sort of, like, nearing middle age and it's not easy for me to like, you know, struggle the way I have, like, you know, literally being homeless at my age. But in saying that like, you know, we– we all have different struggles and live different lives. So, and when I think too, like again, things that I've been through, it could be a lot worse. I could be in prison or committing crimes or dragged, you know, like in the end we're dealt different cards, you know, I didn't ask for these cards and you gotta just make the best– best, uh, best you can with it. But more specifically, actually I mentioned I was in London. I went through a rough time out in London. Um, I– I actually, um– um, I'm grateful for, like, my time overseas ‘cause it taught me a lot and I grew up a lot. 

But, um, also went through domestic violence out there. Like, and some just serious situations. I was mostly on my own. And if I'm saying that is because I'm– I do have a mother who lives in Middlesex County. I grew up in Middlesex, the town within Middlesex County. And, um, even knowing that, like– like, this domestic violence situation I was going through is not something I reached out to her about immediately. But even when I did, it was not only complete lack of support, but even one of those where, you know, when your– your parents, and I say parents because my father, he lives in France, and there was no better from him – where it– not only are you not there for you, but they pretty much blame you as the victim. Uh, and my point being, so for a year and a half, I wanted to leave London to move back to the US. A year and a half, and I couldn't just for the simple fact that my mother just absolutely didn't want– not want to help me out.

 [00:04:51]

And it's like I may be older but it doesn't matter, like, how old you are. You should always be able to rely on your parents on some level, especially when you go through certain situations and I was literally in dangerous situations, and I want to say I have been throughout my life even, like– because my homelessness last year in itself was extremely dangerous. I was talking again early with Marisol about some of the dangerous situations I came across last year and where again I, yes, I mentioned my mother because she actively kept me, left me in harm’s way where, like, I'd see her periodically. You know, the one thing I tell people sometimes, and I say, I tell people but believe me, I don't advertise this and it's painful in itself for me to even talk about– and it’s the kind of thing that I think therapy would most likely help me.

 [00:05:30]

But that's this point is that therapy's not even been an option because I've still so much been in survival mode. But the point is like an example that I give is last year my mother actually bought me a sleeping bag to keep me on the streets. And it was like, to me, that's just twisted backwards behavior and in some ways is worse than someone who's completely absent, because it's like you're involved but in the totally wrong way. And so all this to say, to go back to original question of like, well sort of like, how I ended up in New Brunswick, um– sort of like a– a lot of events that led to me ending up in New Brunswick actually–

 You can start wherever you’d like.

Yeah. But initially again, well, so like I said, a year and a half I wanted to come back to U.S. and knowing that my mother was not someone I could rely on. Again, I think even someone in a good situation of having a– having a decent career, blah, blah, when they want to move from, like, one continent to another, it's– it's still a process and a lot of organizing. And so let alone, like, trying to find a landing point with, like, you know, such limited, like, financial options. Just absolutely nobody that, you know, is there just to help you out. It's– I don't think that, um, you know, expectations of a parent being there in those circumstances is unrealistic, as I said, especially in a situation that I was in. But to make a long story short, so for that reason in itself, like, you know, oftentimes Jersey for me was not even somewhere I wanted to be because, like, I have a mother and, uh, realistically a younger brother.

Actually two who still lives in New Jersey. But the point is, you know, family I can't rely on. And so I moved out to California when I– after that year and a half, this was back in 2018 is almost two years ago now, May of 2018, uh, moved out to California where I'd never been just to– Because again, for me it was like, what was the point of going back to Jersey where I had a mother that, like, in reality, like, I couldn't rely on any way and, like, I've never liked Jersey to this day. Like, um, even to, um, get out of my homelessness. Uh, I've been, um, very– this– this close to moving to Maine because it was something that was offered to me a few months back when I started coming to Elijah’s Promise. Because some of the social workers here help people actually move out of state to get out of their homelessness.

 [00:07:37]

Again, not to get too lost in detail, but, uh, the point is so, like, I decided to go out in California where I live. I like warm sunny weather anyway. I'd never stepped foot there before though. And so that in itself, you know, going somewhere completely new or you don't know anyone where you've never been, um, you know, is a huge challenge and something that, like, well, I already knew what that was cause that's how, uh, I ended up in London. Like, in those same circumstances, but precisely, like, I know how challenging that can be as well. And anyway it started out alright, like, um, I had actually found a job from overseas, um, at a lodge as a housekeeper where I could also live on-site. So, you know, of course I needed to find that kind of situation to even have some, kind of like, uh, option to– to move back.

[00:08:25]

And I mean, that in itself was challenging, and I also knew it was risky because anytime, you know, like– like, finding a job from overseas where you haven't met the people and– and precisely ended up not going well, like, where these people who were very exploitative and it was just a hor– awful situation. And I mean it was in a beautiful area called Lake Tahoe in California. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but, um, it actually was– it reminded me of New Zealand where I'd been before. Like most, I never thought anything would ever remind me of New Zealand ‘cause it was so beautiful. But the point is that it's also, like, very unaffordable housing-wise. Because it is a more of a vacation spot for rich people and things like that. Um, so from there, because of things at the lodge didn't work out. Um, as I said too though, it's not like it was a shock to me because it was sort of– like, I knew how risky those circumstances were and that's sort of, like, even what, um, you know, for me, like, moving back, I was definitely not looking forward to it. Which sucked because, you know, like, after that many years, like, moving back to your country should be, like, a nice happy moment, but instead it was, like, just further stress for me, like, and, uh, so anyway, from there, Lake Tahoe, I ended up going Sacramento.

 [00:09:32]

Like, I sort of landed there and that was definitely not a good situation because I ended up in a place, you know, speaking of poverty– in an area of Sacramento that was very poor, like, full of gangs and drugs and so I just got wrapped up with the wrong people. So it just wasn't working out. And so by– it was actually February of last year, so literally a year ago this month that I moved back to New Jersey. Um, so it's going to be two years. I came back to the U.S., but specifically Jersey, it's only been a year because things– since things weren't working out in California, it was February 2nd. I remember the exact day that I, like, flew back to Jersey, but with, again, no landing spot, no, like, no– my mother wasn't a support, blah blah. And I actually had, um, because I do have some, I mean I don't really want to go into the details of, like, uh, I do have some resources, like, so little of income, but, you know, not enough to not be homeless.

 [00:10:26]

And, uh, so, like, I had booked a– an extended stay hotel, but that's the kind of thing too– Like the amount of money I have a month is not enough. It covers maybe two weeks of hotel time a month and that's it. So from there, like, that's how I ended up on the streets actually, uh, actually of all places. Because the place I had found the extended stay hotel was in South Jersey. Um, Cherry Hill, which is actually right near Philly. And I didn't realize it was that close to Philly. But the point is, I would just remember, like, that police, um, you know, I had sort of turned to police for help and, [half chuckle] some of the things y– you wouldn't even believe, like, sometimes, like, where police can be so helpful, but then they can also sort of, like– there's so little police can do, unfortunately, there's a lot of things too –

 [00:11:07]

things, like, that are not within their jurisdiction. But where some things that police do, like, would actually blow your mind. Where like they actually drove me to Philly. Their recommendation was to go and stay at the Philly, um, train station. They actually drove or no, they didn't drive me. I think they helped me with a bus– bus ticket to Philly. I mean at that point I was already– cause I, like, I ended up with all throughout my homelessness, all that I went through– I'm extremely traumatized. And that's what I was talking about a little bit with Marisol earlier as well, because she remembers how it was at the time, in the sense where– that I had become sort of just, like, um, like my instincts took over. Where I was in defense mode all the time. I had to be, like, especially as a woman alone on the streets, imagine like the, uh, the dangers out there, which truly exist. And the point is, uh, you know, I think that when

[00:11:54]

you're in that seat of mind as well, like, maybe, like, I just didn't think as logically or– it's not even about– I don't want to say I was psychotic. So not in– not in those terms. And these are the kinds of things too that, like, I think people, just– another stigma in homelessness is people just immediately assume homeless people are mentally ill. But what I'm describing is more like a symptom of being homeless where, uh, it's actually quite normal. And the, uh, more in the sense that my point is that police, some of the advice they gave me or– or– or directions they steered me in is the kind of thing that I wouldn't necessarily, like, listen to today. But, like, that's how I ended up in the streets of Philly in the middle of February. Like winter– I think it was a colder winter last year if I remember. Like for a dozen– ten days or so.

[00:12:38]

I was in Philly and that will– I'll never forget– that was a bad time, man. And like I'm saying, that was the beginning of, like, the many stories that I have throughout all of last year. And when I say bad time because, and these are the things again, that, like it's weird, it never crossed my mind, never think of them because somewhere, like, maybe even physiologically, maybe naturally my body must have stuffed it, you know, that that's sort of the brain's way of protecting itself as well. Because it is very traumatic and– and hard for me. You know, like when I think of, like, I actually do forget sometimes the crazy things I've been through, but, um, the point is that, like, I– I truly– this is why I described this is by God's grace that I'm still here. I mean, I feel as though something protecting me and survive– helped me survive my homelessness because there are a lot of things that could've killed me.

 [00:13:21]

Like I–  I mean– I– I feel like you asked how I landed in New Brunswick, but New Brunswick is one of the last places I landed at, like– Cause I said, I started out in South Jersey, but I feel I was homeless throughout all of Jersey, where I was going from, really, county to county. Like, and where I ended up closer to home I want is because my Middlesex is not, you know, this is actually part of Middlesex County. But, um, that, yeah. Uh, I– I did so much walking and in places that I shouldn't have been walking, like twice, almost got hit by a car, you know, that– that's what I mean. Like, I have all kinds of examples like that. When I say that I feel that something protected me because also considering that, realistically, I was extremely vulnerable a– and even like because I– I was traumatized as I was as well, uh, like as vulnerable as I was.

Like, I– I– I feel like there's something else took over that would– Be– because I– I didn't necessarily, like, um, on the one hand, um, like, I wasn't necessarily listening to my instincts, uh, you know, because I– I just was too traumatized. Like, I– so I want to say that the trauma started out in California already before I even got here. Cause I mentioned how, you know, I ended up in a bad situation there already, which was what led me to come here in the first place. I mean that in itself, the fact that I was able to come back here, I– it really felt like it was sort of like, literally I was in a sort of, when I say survival mode, I mean true survival mode of like, where– that was sort of like, as far as instincts go, it was just my instincts, pure instincts keeping me alive.

 [00:14:52]

And just, like, tell me or knowing what I needed to do and, like, I felt like– like I needed to just come back. Like I want to put in quotes “home” because, again, like how is it really home? Like, when where you grew up, you have family that's not there for you, but it's still where you grew up. And, like, something in me just like– I just felt like I needed to be here. Um, but in saying that, uh, from there, like, just, it was continual, uh, battle and– and struggle.

[00:15:20]

MALE VOICE: I am sorry. I didn’t know anybody was here.

No worries, no worries. How you doing? Good to see you.

MALE VOICE: Always good to see you.

ALL: [laugh]

Are you okay? You're like–

Yes. I'm so sorry. I was trying to, to keep from coughing–

I understand, it's okay.

I had bronchitis a while ago.

Actually. I'm still struggling with, uh, a sore throat, so sometimes I get coughing [inaudible] makes me cry as well. And yeah, so– [chuckles]

Thank you. I'm so sorry.

Oh, no problem at all. [inaudible] Okay. I just feel like I'm rambling on and on, but in reality, because there's just, like– it feels like sometimes there's too much to say, but so to make a long story short and, you know, even like– It's hard to even ever talk about my mother, but in reality it's hard. Like, when I talk about my homelessness, it's hard not to, because ultimately she still was involved. As I said again, though, not in a good way, but in the sense where, like, throughout these different counties, at some point she– she– well, because when I first moved back here, she was actually in France believe it or not, temporarily, because she lives here, but she's out there for medical things. And meantime, she came back and I would still reach out to her. I– you know, she's still, like, was so resistant on wanting to help on any level, but that– that's unreal. When I think about like– like, despite the severity of, like, the situation that I was in, uh, one of the other places I believe or not, my gosh, one of the most awful times, and this was still Southern Jersey, but I– I want to say that's when I started to sort of creeping up this way– Camden.

 [00:16:59]

People know, like, they hear, like, somebody said, and I like the way they said it, hearing the word Camden, like, you hear it and it's like you're alert, you know, it sounds like you're allergic to just– just the word Camden because of that bad– it has such a bad reputation. Even for people who are from Newark. Camden’s worse than Newark. And I was in a homeless shelter there that– being in the shelter was no safer. It was awful. Like completely, again, still because of the state that I was in, I think that it was very obviously people that was extremely vulnerable. And so I was exposed to, like, toxic people. And I mean even the people who work there, it's not like– I'm in a shelter right now, as I mentioned– and it’s night and day, it’s– one has nothing to do–  And even the shelter where I am now, it's still a toxic environment.

[00:17:42]

But I feel as though I have certain defenses or– or– or tools that I can, um, turn to that I just couldn't at the time just because of how the– the fragile state that I was in. Uh, but as I said, anyway, Camden, just that area anyway is bad. Period. Even in your best of times. And so the reason I'm thinking back to Camden, is cause I mentioned my mother and how– even police, Camden police, because I had gone to them then because of the things that I went through there at the shelter, where I was literally being bullied and where staff just, believe it or not, not only doing nothing but, like, some of them actually contributing and like– like, edging it on. It's unreal. Like– condoning that. And police even called mon– police called my mother and– and– and she was like, “Nah, no.” Oh, like for a mother to– to even, like, even in the face of police, like, it's– it’s like where– she just has a, like, I mean I want to, like, compare it to, um, sociopathic traits where no conscience whatsoever, no sense of duty, responsibility–

[00:18:39]

Just not even–even when police is calling you up, letting you know your daughter, I mean, and you're from Jersey, like my mother, there's no way she can’t know, like, when you're talking about Camden, how dangerous that can be. And, like Camden or anywhere else, even in the best, like Princeton, like, even in a good area, like, if you're a woman alone in the streets, that's a dangerous situation, period. And so when I think of that, like how I fill out, my mother just laughs in the face of like even you– you know, where– even when the police calling her up. Like when I think about that, like, it's a kind of thing at the time, I don't think that it– it struck me as abnormal a– you know, I already thought that. I mean I was in such a desperate state, I remember.

[00:19:19]

But I think that on hindsight I realized even more, um, how just– just wrong it is, like, how, anyway, just to say that, um– so and then from Camden, you know, to be quite honest, like, I'd have to do a chronology to even remember how I ended up, up here and how, like, at some point I finally did see my mother. Oh, I do remember– it was not too, too far from, but yeah. I was going from home to– after that homeless shelter, like before that, I mentioned, I was at an extended stay hotel and then I ended up in Camden– after Philly that I came back to Jersey. I was, like, so traumatized. Then actually at those ten days on the streets of Philly, I lost, like, most of my belongings because I had basically all I owned, I had on me, I had two big suitcases that I was trying to hang on to, and obviously couldn't, and at one point I was so traumatized that, like, on my way running to the police station to report something, I left one of my suitcases behind, like, somewhere I guess stupidly believing I'd find it again. But, you know, then I lost it. And anyway, from there I came back to Jersey and, like– like I– I basically for months, I went from hotel to hotel as long as I could afford it, as I said. Um, and– and that's sort of when I reached out to my mother because financially I couldn't afford hotels for an entire month. And what's unreal to me is, like, financially she would– she did help me out here and there for– for– for hotel stays, but, like, there's a kind of thing that she was doing– and she was holding it against me as well. Talking about how the time– I'd order the money and, like, I remember, like, the main thing, repeatedly telling her how it made no sense that I'm like that because she talked about how it was putting her in that supposedly and that then I would owe her the money.

 [00:21:00]

She was like, “You're intentionally putting me and yourself in debt,” by like to keep me on this, to keep me homeless– because you, that– you don’t want me back at home supposedly. And you know, of course I'm not going to go into that part of it, but it's all out of spite actually, you know, for her own mother, always been a narcissistic abuser– my father as well. But it's all about control and just feeling, like, that need to have the upper hand. Um, and to just be able to say, “Oh, you know, I'm rejected by my daughter and I'm not letting her–” And meanwhile, by the way, my younger brother, who's two years younger, while he was staying at hers, him too, having no work, he said he was there for months and, like, he only moved out apparently in August of last year. So all together he was at my mother's for a year.

[00:21:40]

Like, that in itself could throw someone for a loop. Like, how do you have a daughter who was overseas for years, who fled domestic violence, who needed something to come back to that, like, you're leaving on the streets while your son, you're– you're putting a roof over his head? Like, you know, it just– it just made no sense. And so eventually, like I said, like going from hotel to hotel, one of the hotels that I landed at was a– one in East Brunswick, not too far from here, but I ended up, like, in New Brunswick itself. And that was another, uh, traumatic, difficult time because that was literally twelve days. I remember the exact number of days I was on the streets in New Brunswick and it was, unfortunately, we know, too, is not a place to be homeless in the streets. A dangerous– as sad as that is, when I think, like I mentioned the– I started Rutgers years ago myself, and to think it's a university town, but that it can be– still be that dangerous–

And the other thing is, in New Brunswick, it's pretty small and everyone there– recognizes each other. And, um, yeah, like I was at Boyd Park one time across the street and a guy on his– I was talking to that, um, to Marissa about that earlier to, uh– this guy on a skateboard with dreads, um, with a helmet, uh, who just across the face. My glasses went flying. It wasn't, like, hard, but hard enough where my glasses went flying and it left like a red mark on my cheekbone. And it was, like, unprovoked. Like, I remember I must have said something but, like, you know, like, I wasn't in any way aggressive, if anything. I mean, so that happened and, like, I ran to the public safety center, reported to police who went back there with me to try to find the guy. But the point is, you know, that was one of many stories that, like, traumatize me and from that point, believe it or not, like I actually– that day– and I remember too that that day later we had a major rainstorm.

[00:23:22]

And so, I mean I was stuck in rainstorms several times, like, drenched, like, even before this wintertime– it was around May, so, like, spring time. But even when I mentioned, um, winter time, like, that was one of the times that I went to a police station as well, like, from just being drenched in the cold. And I remember as well, this was a time before my mother was back. So that was before Camden when I mentioned Philly, and one of the times I went to a police station, they actually contacted my mother in France while she was out there. She was more angry about being, like, contacted while she's overseas. Then the fact that the police is that worried about someone that they're contacting their mother to– for help and this, like, it's just– no conscience. Bottom line is that simple. And it's like, to me, it's surreal how, like, strangers can be more worried about somebody than somebody who gave birth to me.

[00:24:10]

But I mean that I think has a lot more to do with, like, what the abuse that I said I grew up in. It has a lot more to do with, like, my mother, [REDACTED]. I can't not include my father because, even though he lives in France and I grew up with him, like, the experiences I went through with him in Europe were no better, like, both my parents are very neglectful narcissists, deeply narcissistic. The abusive people who– having children. And, um, so my point is that, like, you know, that part of my home was his, there's a lot more to do with her. Like, you know, I hate the term mental illness, but it's what it is. And to me, she's absolutely, like, mentally ill, like, deeply and it's more to do with her and that. And, you know, I try to think of it that way, but it doesn't change the impact it's had in my life.

[00:24:51]

And when I go through certain situations, um, which is all that to say, um, that– yeah. So yeah, that day that that happened with the attack with the guy and there was a major rainstorm, I actually walked all the way from here to Middlesex, the town. Like, if you know anything, you must know how far that is. I actually walked, I mean we're talking like easily five miles or something and– but that's like– that was not exceptional when I mentioned that. Like, I mean I– I walked not only miles and miles throughout my homelessness and to the point where I actually thought of, um, you know, Forrest Gump where, you know, he does all of that mileage running by like literally it was like that, where I was on, like– I went through several pairs of shoes. You have no idea. That's another thing I'm remembering cause I mentioned that having lost everything but not only that, even losing stuff just from the fact that this shoe that I was wearing were shoes I had gotten when I was still in Europe, they were leather Italian shoes that got so worn from walking.

[00:25:45]

And, like again, I was, you know, in a different city I am in now. When you're living like that, you literally, like, sort of a– how do you– would you say, I want to say almost, um, you become a, what's the word– I don't want to say animalistic, but how would you say? Like more a little bit– Yeah. But, uh– and I want to say, uh, I can't find the word– it’s on the tip of my tongue, but where you become, uh, just, yeah, I can't find the word right now, but the point is that, like– I walked so much. I literally, I mean, I– I, there's some things I can laugh about now, but at the time I remember talking to friends in London that I would sometimes be in contact with. And how funny, I must have sounded to her though. I ended up with, like, rocks in the insoles of my shoes, like, just from walking so much.

[00:26:31]

And the point is that, yeah, I did so much walking, but even in places where I shouldn't have been, because like the one cop said– I'll never forget too that New Jersey is a very, um, it's a–it's– it's a not, uh, pedestrian safe and that's very true. And even the U.S. in general compared to like Europe, for example, you know, it's not for pedestrians. And so, like I mentioned, that I almost got run over twice. But that's when I say like, that's not the only dangerous situations. Like, when I think back on roads that I was on that, like, I shouldn't have been on that. The fact that I survived that in itself is unreal. But the point is, so yeah, that distance that, I mean from here to the Middlesex, I mean, and immediate led to me even having physical issues that I'm– thank God– only now over, because I just finished, like, two months of physical therapy, because I actually thought I had a herniated disk. My– my pain was so bad in my back, and this is directly related to my homelessness, and thank God apparently it's not herniated. Like, I've never been able to get an MRI ‘cause they’re unaffordable, but I'm– they think it might have been simply tightness, um, just stiffness and because I was that stiff.

[00:27:34]

Well, that I believe you're not because when I– at one point I ended up just being on the streets, like, sort of temporarily. I mean permanently, I want to quit the opposite. More like– like, because I'd run out of money after staying in hotels then I'd have no money. Like, I decided, like, cause when it got warm enough I just stayed out in the street completely. Um, but I'm sort of trying not to jump around too much that day. I've walked all the way, my mother's begging her basically. I let her know what had happened with the guy who assaulted me and I begged her. I said it had rained. I actually asked her, I want to think back once again. It's kinda thing like absolutely like my instincts just took over because you know, like, I wasn't analyzing or overthinking anything. It was all purely like just sur– survival instincts.

[00:28:20]

And, like, when I think back on the fact that– that I– I had to ask these things to my mother and the things that she allowed to happen i– i– is she's not normal. Like she's, like, not normal where I actually begged her– because I knew how much she didn't want me to stay in her house and I was at her house. I'm like, I said, me, my mom, brother living there who I still hadn't seen it and I had been back in the U.S. Um, so like– like I, in many ways, I hold him responsible as well because it's like, you know what, in the end, my mother is one person, but he's also my younger brother and it's like wow. Like, and in my opinion it doesn't matter because, uh, he– he called and left me a message, um, way back in September or late August, just out of nowhere seeing that he claimed he didn't know what was going on with me despite asking my mother.

[00:29:01]

And I do believe that because she's that deeply, like, deranged, I don’t want to call it, like, deranged, that– and she's also one of those, um, that saying– uh– divide to conquer. Where I'm sure the less she– he knew about, as far as my situation, I mean, how could he blame her? Or how could even be there for me if he didn't know about it? But the– the point is though, he still knew something and that's a whole other story as well. And it see– it– it's kinda hard not to jump around when like, I mean I've been through so much. And it just leads to other things that are so, like, psychological and deep for me. But I actually asked her, “Would you be willing to let me stay in your–  your van for some time?” And it just– I just remind me as matter of fact too, one reason why I had done so much walking. I couldn't even walk anymore. I had such bad blisters. I'm talking, like, under, like ,my feet, both such badly, really bad. I couldn't even walk anymore to the point where, um, I mentioned, like, back issues that I have a, excuse me–

Take a moment. Yeah.

[00:29:51]

Yeah. [voice breaking] I mean, you know what like, yeah, because, like I said, [pause] it's the kind of thing– it is like something that has deeply affected me, that I never talk about because it's insane. I– maybe it's like we started talking and it's almost like I’m digging. Yeah. ‘Cause in reality, like, I know I've come so far and, like, I know I've always known I'm somebody who's strong, but, like, I didn't know my strength to that extent. Because, I mean, I went through some– when I think back to what I went through some like– [crying]

[00:30:32]

Yeah.

[00:30:34]

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Sorry, it’s not a soft tissue, but–

Thank you. Yeah, no, I mentioned that something like eight– eight years ago actually led me to, like, want to travel. That was something that I said– it almost cost me my life and it's, like, actually the worst thing I've ever been through in my life from– from, like, I've always thought that if I was able to survive that I could survive anything. The thing is, like, to know that I can overcome that, yet still go through things like this and overcome it ag– I really honestly feel as though, like, what I went through, I, like sort of, um, quite similar in many ways as far as, like– like the level of danger actually, like, on my actual life. Um, where it sort of brought back, um, traumas from then already. Cause after I went a few years back, I was dying of severe PTSD and that's actually my main, um, struggle. [sniffling] 

[00:31:27]

[drinks water, composes self] ‘cause, you see, as I'm talking about things that– things that I actually remember, like, I can't believe the fact that I forgot my, um, blisters? Because it was a serious one where I had back issues. My– my pain was so bad, like. [voice breaking] Back in May I actually went to Robert Wood Johnson. Back in May when I was on the streets. Because imagine, like– like, lying on hard surfaces – how painful that is, after doing all the walking that I was doing. And I think what actually initially started in my back issues was one of the many counties that I was at– Unreal. I was literally in the middle of nowhere. Like I said to my one friend in London one time, a county in an area I'd never been to before and my mother, like, dropped me off there at a hotel that she knew it was only for a couple days.

[00:32:20]

Knowing, like, I got no money, once those days are up, then what? I mean, the point is, and I'm trying to remember, I can't remember the name of it now, but it was like some army area, like, so you know, one of those areas where there's just mostly army bases and nothing around but nature? And I was walking along a road again, as usual, but, like, in the grass. And there was a huge ditch I didn't see that I landed in improperly– forcefully– while I was walking. And that could easily give me a herniated disc. And all of this time I've been so worried that I had herniated something that, you know, I'd never had chronic back pain in my life. I've always been the active, um– um– um, athletic type. And so for me, the idea of, like, possibly, you know, because I was caused to having this chronic pain– I’m– literally, I mean that's still there, but– but not as bad as before because literally since, only recently, that the pain has subsided.

[00:33:10]

And the point is that, you know, the idea that because my homeless– homelessness on top of that, like I now have health issues, you know, like, but thank God that, you know, like I guess even– even physically and, like, I have good genes and I'm strong and thank God for that. But, um, the point is that, like, so the pain, yeah, I mentioned Robert Wood Johnson back in May. Uh, yeah ‘cause I was on the streets and, you know, like, so one time I remember I was trying to sleep on a bench at a bus stop and I was in so much pain I went to the hospital. And, uh, like most doctors do, you know, they give pain medicine. They gave me a patch and prescription for, like, a heat patch and things like that. And they said it might be a strain of muscles or ligaments around the spine.

[00:33:49]

But anyway, and then from there, too, I was trying desperately to get back to my chiropractor. I mean, yeah, a chiropractor I had seen many years before. And of all people, my mother was the one who one time actually dropped me off there, but she didn't went inside. Like, I immediately remember the doctor, like, I didn't even know she was still practicing or not and she was. But anyway, the point is that, like my chiropractor, when she saw my feet, that she said, “You need to stay off those.” It was that bad that even a doctor, even if she wasn't a podiatrist, she said you need to stay off those. And so that day that I walked all the way, to my mother's like, I– I– I already had such bad blisters and I asked my mother, “Would you allow me to just stay in your van?” She has a van. She agreed to that.

[00:34:25]

But when I think of how twisted that situation was that like I was at my– in my mother's van for four to five days, like, her van parked, like, on the side of her house at her house, while my brother's inside there living and she's as well, like, she's leaving me in the– where I couldn't walk because my feet were that bad. A– a– and to know that she even brought– she gave me a bucket to like go in, like, in her van. I mean this is like I– I– when I say twisted sometimes I think there's no word to describe, like, a person that that's– that's dark even that's– that's crazy. And I think, like, it's weird because I say that I never think of these things but they actually do come to me here and there is sort of, like, um, consistently, um, just, yeah, I don't know when just recently again I was, like, thinking about that and how, like, backwards that is.

[00:35:09]

Um, so some, you know, like, sort of regularly they do come through my mind, but it's a kind of thing that, when the thought is there, I don't start thinking deeply about it, because, like, I just realized how li– I don't want to feel– like it's the kind of thing, like, I'd rather push out of my mind, but, and where my– my blisters, like, I– I took care of them myself. Where, like, uh, asked her for bandages and all this stuff, but where she was– in no way did it, like– she minimized even that, where, like, after those four days, like, even then– see this is the thing, like, I could just be here all day because one thing after another where, uh, she– she's– she's– uh– she’s just wanting me, like, gone. Even, like, me being in her van because she needed her van back for the weeke– like, she didn’t– couldn’t care less that I was even in pain, that the condition of my feet– all that. 

[00:35:48]

And, um, it was from, I– I think there– I’ll say I ended up in East Brunswick, which again, isn't far from here, but because of what I'd been through here in New Brunswick, and just– First of all, too, when you're living homeless like that, you're in constant stimuli. That in itself is very traumatic for the brain. And, like, for me, like, by nature, I'm a shy person. I also– I was told, and I'm unofficially diagnosed, but I one hundred percent believe that I'm on the spectrum. Like, I was told, like, you know, high functioning, what they call high functioning Autism, like, um, I guess Asperger's. And it's something that I really want to, uh, look into. But the reason I even mentioned that is because by nature I've always been a shy type, just, like, I hide it very well.

[00:36:34]

Like, I've learned how to adapt. But the point is, like, when you're homeless, I mean everything you have to do and you have no privacy. Well first of all, again, you're exposing yourself, like, you know, especially as a woman alone, like– like, so you don't want to be around a bunch of people. So between that and what had actually happened in New Brunswick, I ended up in East Brunswick and, believe it or not, um, in a, um, abandoned, uh, shopping center that I had found. And so, like, and that was– became my home for a month and a half. Like, behind these bushes in an abandoned shopping center. And, like, that was– that was suddenly where, I think, what led me or, like, gave me an opportunity to start feeling better. Where, like, first of all, I wasn't in constant light because actually dark, like I– it just actually felt so peaceful, believe it or not, unbelievably.

And all that I had was what I owned, which wasn't much, but the– the bushes in question that I like– like I was able to, like, hide my stuff in there whenever I'd leave the, uh, spot. And, like I mentioned, I had a sleeping bag that my mother even bought me and so, like, and I had more than one. So, like, I actually had a sleeping bag to sleep in and– so I was out there for, like, from August to September, like, over one month and a half. And, um, somebody that I ran into that had remembered me from when I come here in May– I used to go to soup kitchen. If it wasn't for seeing her and her telling me, you go back and speak to Marisol, I don't know that I ever would've come back here, but I'm glad I did ‘cause I came back here and beginning September and that's when I, like, actually met Milton and Marisol for the first time. Th– they remembered me, but I had never officially met them, and I spoke with them downstairs for like a good two hours, even–

[00:38:04]

Telling them, like, all I'd been through and I was, like, I was much thinner than now. You see, I'm thin by nature. But I mean, like, I went through the– the– that’s this other stuff that my mother let me go through that, like– When I say things that, like, that I went through, my mother that– things that she allowed her, that she, I won't even say that situation–she, like, she made me– she didn't put me in those situations but sort of– um, kept me in them for sure. Like I went through periods of starvation literally, where, like, one time, I mean I was so desperate and tried so hard to help myself that the times, time that I was out in New Brunswick, I even walked all the way– I don't know if you know how far How Lane is– social services is– all the way there and back a couple of times.

[00:38:37]

This was the middle of summer, like– like, so much heat. Like, really, heat– And I always had my suitcase. They remember, ‘cause all my belongings I'd always have on me. I mean, like, you know, if I left anywhere it’d go missing and, um, to apply for food stamps– and, like, I could only get the minimum, but I still got fifteen bucks in food stamps. And one of the things, uh, like, one of the things always, I actually was using my mother's address as a mailing address. And so my food stamps card went to her but also, like, one thing that she did agree of– like, the only thing she did, and even that was something that she didn’t want to, I don't want to say whine about was keep the few, so few belongings–I mean I had so little to begin with, including my mail and once I was begging her on the phone for my– my– my own food stamps card ‘cause that– that I needed to activate cause I was starving–

[00:39:18]

Even that, she denied me, like, where she wouldn't even give me my own food stamps card. You know, like, I had no way of driving. Like, while I was starving. So I'd go days and then sometimes she'd show up. Like one time she– she sometimes bring you food that she actually would cook for me. But when I think about it, there's something wrong with that. Like, where it's, like, very twisted. Just like you're a mother who's, like– like warm in her bed with a roof over your head, while you know that your daughter's out here– And she's– but at the same time, you're, like– like once in a while, like, in her mind where she thinks she's, like, being a good mother. But at this point, this was before this was already East Brunswick. And before, the, uh, abandoned shopping center I had found, believe it or not, I was, like, in the area, that's where, like, woodsy actually across from a Wawa out there and I was living in the woods for several weeks.

[00:40:05]

Like living in the woo–I mean, like, around the deer and everything. Like, a– that's kind of what I was trying to say before. Like, where part of you becomes a bit more savage– not– not savage, like in a savage, more, like, wild where you sort of, like, go back to, like, wild instincts. Like, where it's crazy, but it's true. And– and, that's sort of, like, the state that I was in. And– and, um, I mean in saying that I– believe me, like, I feel like, I– I also experienced something that, like, you know, when you live a normal life, like– like there was also things about life that I appreciate or, like, was able to like enjoy that– and normally I never would. Where li– li– li– like I feel like you also see how little you need actually in life. Like– like, you know, second time in my life that I lose everything I've saw, like, materialistically and you just realize how replaceable that is because your life's not replaceable but that is.

[00:40:50]

And anyway that the point is that my mother– the reason I'm talking about that I was in the woods and like I'm talking about around deer, like– Oh, another thing too that I dealt with, because this is– this is kind of detail that I'm seeing people think about. Even people with compassion who don't think about if they haven't lived it. Like, especially in the middle of summer I went through– so all kinds of bug bites. I got stung by a bee on my– one time. Well, I mean, you can laugh too, by the way, because some of it is the kind of thing that, you know, even I laugh when I [chuckles] think about some things, but in seeing that– but that's another one of the many dangers that are out there. ‘Cause I– I've, um, ended up finding deer ticks on my– on my, yeah, a couple of times where even that was something I was starting to, um, worry about.

[00:41:30]

I could have ended up with Lyme’s disease. I mean, I'm so lucky in so many ways, um, because, you know, at the same time, like– like, I mean I– I thank God, was self-aware as well and– and– and able to take care of and look after myself as much as possible, you know, like, and that's all I did. Um, but the point is that one of the times my mother, like, she literally gave me like three hamburgers and just this whole– like, in foil– food that she actually expected me to go out there and like, you know, like, uh, so I have that, like, actually I had to throw out, because actually that in itself was dangerous. The fact that I had, you know, like, food with me, like, it was attracting the wild animals and I, like, I said that to her. But again, I know now when I think about it, I w–w– I will– literally sort of was more, like, wild where, like, I was thinking on that level where, like, she wasn't even thinking like that and, but– but that's my point–

[00:42:20]

It's like th– the complete lack of compassion and insight that in her head, “Oh, I'm just going to throw food at her and she can’t see that I’m not– I’m not letting her starve.” But I mean it's like who even does that anyway? It's, like, so twisted to me and– and weird. But, um, yeah, and I mentioned, like, getting like, you know, all the insect bites and things, like, and even mosquitoes nowadays when they think about the diseases mosquitoes carry. Um, but just– Oh yeah, just one other thing. Believe me– I mean, maybe I shouldn't even talk about this, but it's actually something I was talking about with Marisol earlier as well, but I'd rather not just, like, you know, different things that, like, examples of, like, self care, and– and– and how it's hard to, like, look after yourself, like, when you're living like that on the streets. And also, you know, like you do have some people, like, you know, thank God, um, I came across some nice people, but, like, those were few and far between and if anything, there were a lot more people who were like, I don’t want to say, like– that's when you see how, like, people can be animals.

[00:43:18]

Like, not even inhumane, but flat out animals. Where like the– a manager from Wawa was actually an asshole. Like I'm– I'm saying to me it was an absolute asshole. We in no capacity whatsoever, you treated me like I want to say like “a homeless,” but what does that mean? And he treated me like– like a reject, like screwed, like one– one time for example– All I wanted to do was– was, um, charge my phone. Even something like that, like a phone is so imperative, like, for safety and when you're on the streets, like I said to a friend of mine as a joke, I was like, um, sockets don’t grow on trun– tree trunks, you know? And, like, even that's something my mother had no, like, you know what? Compassion is not the word. She had no remorse, no sympathy, no nothing. One time when she, like, knew that I– I had an almost no more phone–

[00:43:55]

Uh, she was actually telling me, “Oh, just go to the Wawa do this–”I said, go ahead. I told her one time, I said, go ahead. We were at the Wawa because she wanted to buy me a sandwich. It's like, so you let me several days at a time starve, and then when you decide that, Oh, you want to go for a ride, you're in the mood to buy me a sandwich, so you're going to spend, like, that extra money. Like for me, that in itself was so, so dis– disrespect was not even the word, like an insult. Where– where, like, I'm watching my mother, like– like sort of carelessly spend money in a way, well while I'm sending her homeless counting literally pennies, literally pennies and and telling me, “Oh, do this or do that.” Like– like not thinking twice and– but it didn't matter if I told her even and made her aware of certain things, in reality, because she just doesn't care when I say. Like, “Oh, why don't you just stand there in front of everybody and like, uh, plug in your phone and, and, and, and just stand there and wait for–” or when I told her that, um, excuse me one time when I plugged in my phone in the vestibule area of like the entrance to Wawa, the manager took it away and threatened to call police if I, if he found me doing that again.

[00:44:52]

Well, but at the same time I understood that, like, if I left it there, anyone could've stolen it and that sort of, he's the one liable. But– but the thing is, my mother towards me had no compassion for the situation as– as she was leaving me– and these struggles. Because at the same time, like, that was super dangerous for me in the sense that, like, it's also, like, attracting police around me unnecessarily. And even she– she went as far as like, way before that, she was threatening to put me in a hospital, like a mental hospital, when that wasn't what I needed. Like– like, obviously all I needed was, like, just, like, basic help and support. And it's like for me, like any parent who thinks on level, it's vicious. It's messed up and, but– but also she's– she's absolute mentally ill because she claimed that I was some kind of danger or her that was like, and again, that's a whole other story, you know, sort of, but it unfortunately ties into this because in reality it was all out of spite.

[00:45:40]

And because, like, my time abroad and, like, basically that's what I call a journey of self discovery for me. Did just traveling. Like, I finally learned to live for myself and I've realized, you know, like, just the– the insanity of what I'd been through. Like, more important, I want to say that I held– for the first time in my life, I held my parents accountable for all they put me through. And I'm– abusers don't want to be held accountable and– and the more you do, the more they're going to resist or even try to get you back in that spot of victim. And that's what she's always done. And the point is it's like, I'm not going to lie that, like, especially in writing, like, I expressed, like, I was very– a very angry person but the anger is justified and, you know, rather than maybe trying to put things in perspective, but in reality, like, how could I have expectations of people who were abusive, they're not going to pray–

[00:46:23]

Like– like, if they're able to do half the things they've done, then they're not the ones who are going to, like, question themselves or take responsibility. And it's still– the point is that this is truly, I know that I hurt her. And, like, for me it wasn't like I meant to hurt, or abuse, the way– And so I know that I hurt her, really deeply as far as, like, on an emotional level and this was her way of quote unquote getting back at me and it’s out of spite. And claiming, because I finally held her accountable for things I’m– I’m some kind of a danger to her, unbelievably, which is so not the case at all. And if, you know, if anything, my mother was even physically abusive even as an adult. And so, you know, that's just, you know, the– the– the– the truly, like, different reality that abusers can live in that they create for themselves.

[00:47:05]

And so all that to say, the reason there's a reason that I'm even pointing that out is because to come, like, and just to me, to be quite honest, how vicious they'd be manipulative. A lot of this is because, to bring it back now, let– within my homelessness situation, my mother would try to use certain situations that I ended up in even towards others such as that manager who, you know, there's so much stigma around it who sort of treat the homeless like they’re some kind of danger to them. My mother was to use that, like, as a, uh, as an example of, like, to– to back up her story: me being some kind of danger to her. Oh you see that problem person has a problem with that one. I mean it is so cruel because, like, and so one time, back to the example of the phone being charged in the Wawa, because there was a– there were sockets.

[00:47:49]

Okay. Yeah. But if the manager, like, is not allowing me, he's not allowing me. It's that simple. And it's like my mother, first of all, she has no regard to, and to me this is sort of an example of like, um, you know, like, I've read up a lot, believe it or not, unfortunately, on sociopaths and sociopathic traits.  It– it sort of, to me, aligns with other sociopaths or narcissists, which one can be, like, a sociopath is always a narcissist and a narcissist can be sociopathic. And it– it to me lines up with some of the traits that those two have– have, which is no regard for, like, just I want to say even, um, just rights of others but no regard even for– for even, like, rules in life, rules of life. Like, my mother has, like, when I come think of it, when I talk about it, she has none of that where it doesn't matter to her–

[00:48:30]

If she's in public, she'd make scenes and she'd create them and, like, provoke me. And it's like always. And for me that was actually a part of my trauma. It br– it– it– it, um, contributed to my trauma because it was a huge stressor for me, ‘cause it felt like a true, um, because it really was a– a, um, a true, like, I don’t want to use the word danger, but um, like, a, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh, you know, the tip of my tongue but, uh, um, [pause] sort of, there's another word for danger, but it truly was like a– for me yeah, like, uh,  putting me on the spot like that. Like, in the situation that I was in, like, that was, I want to say, like, my well– my wellbeing and livelihood. Like– like, this is a store that I would go and use her toilet all the time.

[00:49:18]

I mean, at least because I obviously understood I was homeless. At least that was something I was able to, like, periodically the manager will come up to me and sort of complain because on top of that I wasn't, you know, spending money in there, that kind of thing. Again, like common sense details that, like, I'd point out to my mother that you would think, like, a– any caring mother would think of any way. Like i– i– if my daughter's homeless and she's not spending money, like, does she really think that they're going to sit there and just, like, gladly, like, um, plug-charge my phone from me. ‘Cause one time I actually asked them, the workers, and one of them did and– but the manager truly was an asshole because he didn't wanna help on any level of anything. Not only was he not helpful, but he was even, again, treating me–

[00:49:56]

like, I was some kind of threat to them where, like, he came back immediately, like, no, don't ask us to charge your phone ever again. And b– back to, like, what I was seeing my mother's example when you– how stubborn, even in how just absurd she was– one time when I was like, well okay, why don't you try it? Go ahead. Plug the phone in, stand there right next to it while you're waiting for the phone to charge. ‘Cause it's, like, the coffee area where people get their coffee, because obviously you don't want anyone to just steal your phone. And she actually did, like I went to the van waiting for her in the parking lot at Wawa and she did stay in there for a good ten minutes. But after only ten minutes she came out to me, you know, like, can you imagine how stupid she must've felt?

[00:50:31]

And even that in itself, like how humiliating situations could be. Humiliating it could just be on the streets in front of, you know, all these things that, like, are once again just show a complete lack of compassion. Again, even just plain sympathy from a mother. And so, you know, what realistically I could go on and on like this for, Oh, I just remembered the– I kept saying danger but I meant threat. Like, to me, my mother, certain situations that she'd put me– she was a true threat to me. Like, I knew anytime I'd see her she'd cause scenes in public and, like, I knew she was a threat in the sense that she had actually threatened– she called police on me once herself once when she– she was the one that found Motel Six for me in East Brunswick the first time. And I didn’t want to go there–

[00:51:12]

I just didn't want to go. And I think at that point, like, I had struggled already so much. I'd had enough, I think this was after Camden. Yeah. And because I was just, like, sort of uh, um, worked up, she– she– she would–  she was actually– she like– some kind of victim, like I was actually–  like I was a danger to her over– look, my own traumatic reactions to my– what I was going through. She called the police on me– truly up before calling police, she called a hospital. You know what I mean? Truly hoping that these people would put me in a hospital g– g–g–  to get medicated. It's like– and one of the thing was she knows, like, there's, like, a major history behind that too. Then what I talked about what I went through eight years ago, we believe are not, like, within the, um, I'm not, like, a mentally ill person, but the mental health field almost killed me.

[00:51:52]

Like, believe it or not, like, it almost killed me and it's like why? Like, it just makes me sick cause my mother was somebody who's, like, always– she knows how toxic the mental health field can be and always sort of fought against that and actually helped me. But then when the fact that she can be the very person to, I mean, I feel it, this is becoming more about my mother and, unfortunately, that's not what I want to make it about. But it’s– because again, it's so intertwined with, like, the, like, my homelessness and [phone rings, is silenced] and, like, realistically, like, I wouldn't even be homeless in the first place if, you know, like, my mother was somebody I had been able to rely on. And so it's just, you know, to say that absolutely, like, you know, really took sort of, like, trying to, like, you know, what the awareness that you're trying to bring up, you know, to people because like uh– And I think more and more, um, today though, well, I say that, but realistically, probably all kinds of people used to be homeless as well before that–

[00:52:49]

But I see more and more and more in the sense that, like, life is more and more unaffordable. And so I feel that, based on that, there's, like, more homelessness than before. Like, maybe that reaches different types of communities now, you know, than before. And– and so that, like, yeah, like, people do need to realize that, um, you know, as homeless people we’re actual– we’re already victims in many ways just within our homelessness and that, um, yeah. Like, it's so easy to just ignore it when, you know, you have money and– and a roof over your head and, like, things are okay. But, [deep breath] uh, I went through a lot, you know, and, like, I– I'm still a– I'm still in the homeless shelter since only end of November. Yeah. Like, from the– September when I came back here, from that point on, I'm, like, I finally started just going uphill from there, thank God.

[00:53:34]

Where, like, I started eating here again and that made all the difference, because I mean that, like I said, I was literally starving. And, like, when I say that this is me having blown up after eating, because I was dangerously thin, I had no fat on me whatsoever. No, I wasn't– skin, like underweight, like– like, you know, just abnormally thin and, you know, I suffered, malnutrition. This is the second time in my life that I deal with that as well where, um, you know, it affected my view, like, all kinds of things. It's crazy. And so I've slowly really been, like, uh, coming back from that, you know, at some point, like I said, even being able to adjust my– my medical needs like my– my back and just different things like my teeth, my eyes, you know, things that, like, uh, thank God, like, from being at the shelter, I've been able to do those things and– and solely come back from it all. Because it feels like it is so easy for things to go downhill and it takes so much more time to, uh, rebuild from that.

[00:54:30]

Um, so, and now I'm, like, uh, I mean since October anyway, I've been trying to get into housing, uh, an apartment, low income housing and– and I mentioned earlier, like, you know, I truly don't like New Jersey, and that initially– the people here trying to help me find housing were, uh, trying to help me move out of state to Maine of all places. And, um [clears throat], at the time it sounded like such a good idea. First of all, because of the desperate state that I was in and the idea of leaving Jersey again, because, you know, I think that obviously coming back after so many years and– and to– to start off, you know, with these experiences, I mean, it would turn off anybody from any area, let alone somewhere like Jersey where it's already a place that I don't exactly like, it is known to be too expensive and things like that.

[00:55:13]

But, um, I actually have an appointment next month, March 10th to look at two apartments in Maine, although, believe it or not, since then, I've now changed my mind. Maine is– is just way too cold for me. Uh, and, uh, I have applied to places in Jersey, because I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. And so there are some, like, avenues are, like, definitely promising things and I'm waiting for here in Jersey. But I just figured I'll still go up there and see, because it doesn't hurt to see, uh, as long as it– ‘cause I literally, like, my mind w– and soul were set on Maine. But, like, now, like, things haven't gone as smoothly as I had hoped. And, you know, they say things happen for a reason. I do believe that and since then has sort of made me think twice and, like, I think that part of me still always uneasy at the idea of, like, the harsh winters they have up there–

[00:55:54]

Cause I've always liked the warmth and sun. And so, like, you know, your instincts, it's important to listen– if something tells me no, then I think it's best not to, but the fact that– like, precisely one of the places I had applied at back in October, like it– it is actually coming through now. Um, but so I said, yeah, like, cause I do, like I said, I want to go up and look and– and– and even– I even view it as it could be, like, a nice mini break for me from the shelter two days away. Like, and I– I heard M– Maine is beautiful. So, you know, like, I'm thinking it that way. Like, to still keep my options open, at least I, like– Marisol was saying too–  like, at least I can't say,”coulda, shoulda, woulda and so–” [sniffs]. But either way, the point is that I feel that I'm nearing, like, my goal of finally securing housing, but literally it's, you know, it has been, like I said, this month– this month is a year that I've even been– been in back in Jersey.

[00:56:45]

So I mean it's only since September that I've really doing, I want to say, overall better, but it's been, like, months and months that I've just been, like, in constant, like, just constantly surviving and struggling. Um, but because the shelter– where I am now, it's going on three months I've been there, since November 25th– just those three months of having stability, it's made all the difference for me. Like, psychologically, like, I mean, you know, I'm more posed like I– it's just way different. Like, up until then, right before Christmas, literally I still was, you know, when you're constantly living, not knowing, like, where you’re going to be staying the next day or, you know, and I, you know, some of the stories that I told you were, like, a few of many because you're still always vulnerable and– and, you know, people exploit that vulnerability big time. Because even that happened to me, where even from September on, even though I was no longer on the streets, like I said, at respite house for ten days, which is just temporary and then, like, some people would offer to help me out.

[00:57:37]

But these people who, you know, sometimes they can act, like, um, they want to help you out, but in reality, like, these are people who ended up being more of a burden and exploiting me. Like, one of them, by the way, having stolen from me. Even the few things I had left, she stole from, like, she went through my personal belongings. So, you know, like, it happens all the time when you're in that vulnerable position. Um, I mean my [clears throat] my  m– mother has been, not wanting to say, the one who’s been exploiting me the most. And that's sad when your own family member, let alone your mother, but so it's rough. [chuckles] Yeah. It's, uh, not easy. [forced laugh] Yeah. I haven't stopped talking. Sorry. [chuckles]

[00:58:12]

No! That’s ok, it’s great. It’s wonderful. Let's see. How are we doing with the battery? Is it okay if I ask you a couple of questions about–

Sure. 

For example, when you were in New Brunswick, what was your routine during the day and overnight trying to find somewhere to sleep. Where did you stay? 

Yeah. Oh my God to be honest with you, can you imagine that’s the kind of thing I actually have to think back to or whatever, because, again, I think it's the kind of thing, first of all, state that I was in at the time. And when you look when something traumatic, you– you bury it. And that's really good question because, uh, where was I sleeping? I can't even remember that. Um–

[00:58:49]

Oh no, I mean in the beginning, like I mentioned that for example, uh, me getting, like, a– I tried sleeping on this bench on– at a bus stop one time. And even that's something that you realize too when you're homeless. Like, there's very few benches first of all. And some that are, like, you know, the city, they do things to prevent the homeless from– I went through things like that as well. Actually one of the places I tried to go to  was the train station. I did lay on a bench one time and immediately the police was right there. Like, you know, that's a threat as well. Like, you know, it's a constant– you're basically constantly in a heightened state, heightened mode, which is so bad in itself. But where– precisely what you called it earlier, they said it was loitering. And so I'm sort of, I want to say everywhere, like, and I mentioned Boyd Park earlier because that to me was a place where I– as– sort of tried to hide.

[00:59:35]

But, like, realistically at night, that's not safe and, um, it was too cold. Like, you know, [pause] I'm trying to remember where I even was staying because precisely, like, um, I want to say I didn’t have a, like, a specific spot that I could, uh, sleep, and I know that I was often at the public safety center, but that was mostly to use the bathroom. Um, a couple times I did just, like, sit, uh, on the bench they have there, but, like, never really lied down because I'd actually– I feel like I'd have to think of that one as far as, like, where I was even staying in New Brunswick, because that's how much– that sort of time is a bit of a blur to me. It's crazy. But, um– 

Or– or other places, like you mentioned Camden. 

Yeah. Uh, well Camden at that point, like, that was mostly the homeless shelter, because the reason I actually ended up in Camden was because it was from the police station.

[01:00:27]

One of the times when, uh, I came back from Philly, the very police station that had referred me or told me to go to Philly. Like I said, unbelievably when I think of it now, and I keep went back to, they were also the same– that was Cherry Hill police station. They were also the ones who contacted my mother while she was in France, so these officers really did try to help me, but they had gotten somebody from Volunteers of America who were a social worker to come and basically they– she got me and she worked for this shelter I can– I was in Camden, so Camden was mostly there, but because they, like I mentioned, that there's things at the shelter were awful as well, and I ended up not being able to stay there, and so I did end up on the streets in Camden as well.

 [01:01:02]    

And, actually believe or not. Now I'm remembering as well. She said Camden, like, the again worst place you want to be on the streets and– and– and I was in so much pain I would– that was one of the time that I was stuck in a rainstorm as well as drenched. I ended up– I’ll never– I forgot the name of the hospital because of course I ended up with hospital bills as well that I only recently paid off. Not to mention even ends up affecting your credit, which is crazy. Like, anyway, um, oh, what's it called? Uh, it's a place in France, uh, the name of the hospital. Anyway, I went to the hospital three separate times. They never hospitalized me, but the ER because I– I was in so much pain. I was hungry, tired. I– I, you know, exhausted, like, going through exhaustion and basically– but, like, they say, hospitals, they say to you, “Oh, well hospital's not a place to sleep.”

[01:01:45]

And he– and it's true. I mean, you can't blame them when they have true emergencies and things like that. But I was so desperate. That was, like, a way to sometimes just rest. Um, and– and there are, I want to say that honestly, the average homeless person you'll ask, they kind of have the same stories. They ride buses, they go into hospitals, they go in libraries. And, um, but Lourdes– I'm trying to remember the– Lourdes– Lourdes hospital in– in Camden was the name of the hospital I went to three times. And, um, so as much as, like, the doctors may be compassionate towards your story, but it's also not their role and there's only so much– but besides maybe putting you, like, I don't– in a mental ward, there's nothing they can do. And the thing is the, I– I never did because that's not where I belonged.

[01:02:28]

And that's what I always tell them. For me, the sad thing is, like, the idea that, like, a lot of times people do end up in, like, mental health, uh, places just because they're homeless. And then that can become a vicious cycles ‘cause they ended up being on meds that are, in my opinion, are way more toxic than helpful. And I'm seeing this firsthand. And then, um, that the– the book that I earlier mentioned that I've sort of wanted to write is– is on that because I– there's a lot that I could write on about that. And I feel that it's something that I'm hugely proud of in my own life that– Oh, actually I want to go to school to be a dietician or nutritionist because I'm into nutrition. And I feel like, even my homeless is, I want to say, it has made me even more passionate about nutrition because I see how important food is.

[01:03:10]

It truly is livelihood, but I– I feel that food goes an even longer way than, um, you know, for me, food, like, is health in so many ways, like, when you eat properly. But anyway, uh, so Camden was mostly that. And from there, like hotels, like I mentioned, I was just in and out of hotels, um, constantly and in between, sometimes I would just be, like, you know, outside all night long. And where I really ended up sleeping outside was, um, in East Brunswick, like I mentioned that I was across from this Wawa, uh, fos– near a transportation center actually, in a woodsy area where– but the thing is, is the first time that I felt like I was finally being left alone, where it was woodsy but not in the woods, where I was still right in front of a sort of industrial area, and where people would actually, not many, but once in a while the workers of the factories would walk by, and they'd see me in my sleeping bag, and they actually, like, never bothered me, which was– I'm sure for them it must have been odd.

[01:04:03]

And they understood I was homeless. Um, and I actually did try a couple times. I slept on the bench in the transportation center. And, believe it or not, that was another one of the times that I was given a hard time where the guy that was so nasty, he called police on me. But, you know, when people would come really nasty and aggressive and they start threatening you and threatening police and thinking they have every right to– they treat you like you're not even a human being anymore. And it's like they're the animals, you know, and, uh, like, one hundred percent, I was very, uh, fragile and, like, in a vul– a vulnerable state, like I've said. And from there I ended up finding, I want to say my spot that I, uh, where I said that abandoned shopping center, across from Route Eighteen, uh, where it was, like, sort of the, I want to say the beginning of me just feeling better and things starting to go better for me.

[01:04:51]

Uh, just was, um, I had a couple of sleeping bags and, um, eventually blankets that I got from Milton to Marisol because actually, yeah, I was still out there when I first came here. I still was on the streets, uh, I don't want to say all of September. And it was only, uh, beginning of October. Like, um, they– I was told by the social worker– a social worker here about Respite House. And that was, like, my start of, like, being off the streets. But, um, and then end of November I've been in the homeless shelter since, so yeah.

Will you be able to stay there for a while? 
Um, from– from what I hear, like, they say generally it's like three months and– and even after your very first month, they, like, um, ask for you to make our extension request. So they want to see, like, you know, in writing some kind of, you know, you explaining your situation, why you need your extension.

[01:05:38]

Also they do ask for housing logs, you know, some kind of proof that you're trying to find housing. And, um, so, like, initially I did that and I'm going– I'm coming to my third month, but I'm not too worried because from my case manager I have there that I meet with usually every week. Um, they're aware that, like, I diligently been trying to find housing. I– it's more– more than things are pending. And as a matter of fact, I now have this appointment up in Maine. So being that that's, like, mid-March of next month, I don't think they'll, like, kick me out. Like, in the middle of me, you know, so it actually is, matter of fact, today is one of the things I need to do is a– another extension request. Like, uh, um, I want to say my last extension requests, uh, were all like mentioned that I had this appointment and, um, yeah, that I'm, like, you know, so close to my goal finally.

[01:06:20]

Do they ask you to search for work as well? Is that part of what they–

Yeah, I mean I didn't mention that part, because that's absolutely a part of it, and I didn't mention, and this is something that, like, this whole time I've been meaning to mention because, again, just because of the stigma around this and the assumptions, people tend to jump– jump to. I am currently on disability, like, um, so the point being that for me, thank God that's not a requirement because, like, right now, like, it– it's just not something that I'd be able to do right now anyway. Um, but for those who aren't, like, yeah, that's w– they– they have housing logs and job logs as well. They want to see that people are trying to find jobs. But for me, like I said, I'm lucky that he's not even an issue because I mean, I know that, realistically, I'm not ready.

[01:07:02]

I'm just not any way. Like, I feel I'm still, like, in a, you know, like, there's absolutely needs to, like, be a time of healing when you go through. I mean, I say that, but I never had the luxury of healing in reality. Like, for years, I– I've really, truly, it's all been about survival for me for many years. This has sort of been a way of life for me. But, um, I mean, like, I– I know usually people do it the other way around. They have a job and then they find housing. But, you know, when your home is– is totally different. Like, housing is such a priority. And, like, so, like, I'm thinking of it that way, that, like, I'm slowly finding stability. Like, like I said, already, the three months at the shelter I've noticed has made a difference for me. Like, as far as first, I was afraid as far as, like, my time limit at the shelter and, like, they– they, um, uh, sort of, uh, reassured me about that. And so from that, for– since then, you know, overall, like, I've just finally been able to focus on other things and just generally, like, the level of anxiety, you know, has definitely gone down big time. I mean, maybe you can tell even still, like, when I talk about it, even still for me, like, brings up a lot of emotions, but, um, yeah, man, it's still better than I was before because I was just, you know, like, uh, just– just a wreck. [chuckles]
Let’s– let’s break.

Yeah, sure absolutely.

Any components that you would like to share to expand on what we did last time.

As I had mentioned I mostly was in and out of hotels regularly. Um, you know, and then on the streets in between 

[END OF FIRST RECORDING]

[BEGINNING OF SECOND RECORDING]

 [00:00:00]

Yeah, exactly. Um, but– but– but any components that you would like to share to kind of expand, um, on some of the things that we talked about.

Sure. Well, honestly, I do feel like I did have a lot, much more to say, um, being that I did speak so much. So if it's more to do, well, as I had mentioned, I– I mostly was in and out of, um, hotels regularly. Um, you know, and then on the streets in between, because I did mention it again, since– it's not the kind of thing I advertise because people just jump to conclusions. Um, and plus it is personal as well, but, like, I do have some disability income, but so I would use that towards hotels, but that usually lasts up to two weeks and in the summer is even more expensive. So sometimes, like, you're lucky if you get ten days. Um, and then from there, as I've mentioned, oh, well, I mean I was at– well, I'm at a shelter right now, but I was at a– also a shelter in Camden, as I had said.

So it was a mix of hotel rooms, um, the shelter, or the streets. And especially towards the end, as I mentioned, for like a month and a half straight, I basically just stopped even going to hotels because I'd, you know, just stay in a hotel for a week to two weeks and then I'd have no money whatsoever to live off of, or to eat, more importantly. And so the last month I have– I was on the streets continuously. Um, and I had mentioned last time, I'm in an abandoned shopping center that I had found that is still there on Route 18. Um, in East Brunswick, very close to Dunkin’ Donuts. And, um, so they have a term for it apparently from what? Uh, one of the social workers mentioned like for, uh, I guess for homeless people would just, like, find a spot to– that they stay in.

But I had very few belongings, but what I did have, um, y'know, just, it was, like, right behind bushes that, um, I like blue. I stepped on the sidewalk and sleeping bags and, um, my stuff, I keep in the bushes and, um, sort of cover anytime I'd walk away from that spot. But because it was an abandoned shopping center, there wasn't, like, really ever anyone, um, except sometimes neighbors, like, from the nearby residences that would– but even then, like, or because it was a huge abandoned shopping, uh, parking lot cars would sometimes go in there just to, like, um, I guess practice driving or things like that. But, um, and that was, like, my main spot for up until I went back to Elijah's Promise and met social workers. And, um, well even– even until after that, um, and then the first time that I finally got off the streets from there was when I went to Respite House for ten days, which is in– here in New Brunswick, uh, where they, you know, just temporary housing to help people for up to ten days.

 [00:02:45]

And usually it's not for the homeless. Usually– it's usually for people. They, I guess, mental health issues, like, for some kind of break and that's why it's called Respite House. But they do help with homeless people because there's so many in New Brunswick. And from there, like, so I want to say I was sort of like here, there, and everywhere. ‘Cause a couple of different people, like, offered to help out, um, by letting me stay there without me even asking. But unfortunately that ended up not being good news– two different people because, in the end, and that's I think something I touched on last time as well. Like, even people, like, act like they mean well in reality, like, they were exploiting me, one of those people being believe it or not. Like when you mentioned the address and I was on my way here, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I think I know where it is.”

And you may or may not know that this building here is for, like, I think mainly women, a domestic violence shelter and one of them lives here. Um, but it was a real, like, you know, I'm– I'm not breaking anyone's confidence here because I'm not mentioning names or even going into details, but somebody I barely knew and that I just knew from the– a soup kitchen and he just offered to help me out. But in the end it was bad news and it was not helpful as a matter of fact. I think the first night I was stuck outside, like, in the cold, so it was like– and all with all my belongings in her place. So it was worse than when I had my spot, at least had access to my stuff. And so somebody who basically is into drugs and just, like, somebody didn't know well and then after that another person where that went bad as well.

And I think I may have mentioned or maybe I didn't, but to a point where this is the second person like went through my stuff and even stole from me, like– like, from our own place stole from my– I mean this is pretty bad when you steal from a homeless person but so– You know, a little everything until I got into, uh, the family shelter where I am now at the end of November. Um, and yeah, I mean I guess that's it. Like, when you mentioned, um, just before, like, I guess you to about, like, just ways that I would survive, like, while out there, like–

 [00:04:42]

Yeah, finding food, finding places to wash up, use the restroom–

That's an example of what I mean as far as, like, the challenges that, like, I think that even people with compassionate insight, like, don't think of when they don't live that way. That everything's, like, more challenging and things that normally take one or two steps literally take five times longer.

And so that's being one of them. Um, that's a good question because, actually before I got to the abandoned shopping center, I had been at a different location for quite some time in East Brunswick as well. But I think I had mentioned that last time too, across from a Wawa near the transportation center in, um, uh, East Brunswick too, which is near a 24 hour Walmart. There's like a, a sort of, I met– had mentioned a woodsy area, but not just was where there's, like, a pretty big patch of grass across from sort of like an industrial area. And I was there for quite some time, and the point is because it was right across Wawa and while it was 24 hours, like, I used to use their bathroom there a lot. Um, but– and I think I had, yeah I definitely given the example of my mother.

 [00:05:42]

Um, and the issue with my phone charging my phone, things like that. Like, the reason I'm rethinking of that is because, I mean even like you– being able to use, like, their bathroom was something that I sometimes worry about, especially ‘cause I mentioned, specifically at that place, the manager there was not nice towards me. And so at least that's something though that I think he didn't like it but because the other– all the employees are really nice and they obviously ended up understanding that I was homeless and, uh, as a matter of fact, I– you see things like, you know, sometimes– sometimes memories come back as I'm talking one– one of those nights when I was out there in my sleeping bag, like, ‘cause I wasn't under anything, I was out in the open was one of the times we've got a little, like, a major thunderstorm, like, summer thunderstorm.

 [00:06:23]

And by the time I got into the Wawa, which was like– like a two minute walk, like, I was just drenched and then they saw me like that. But the point is, so they seem to– like, some of those employees were really compassionate and helpful, but the manager not so much. Um, and– and, uh, the reason I'm even thinking about, like, Wawa, um, bathrooms are not as much I want to say public bathrooms as– as they are in, for example, places like Walmart. You know what I mean, where it's really for the general public. The Wawa bathrooms, like, people use a lot less frequently because it is literally a convenience store that people are in and out of. And so for that reason alone, I felt like in the end on hindsight, I feel like I'm lucky that that didn't end up being a problem, because sometimes the major, actually, even when it wasn't the issue with my phone and I wasn't asking for any sort of anything, like, he'd come up to me sometimes and, like, make comments like where he made it very clear to me that I wasn't welcome. Like another time, for example–

 [00:07:16]

Um, I happen to actually– I think I was waiting for my mother at the time and she's always– and has always been late for everything, all my life. And, um, or maybe it was a time– actually one of the times that there was a thunderstorm, I was trying to just stay dry and out of the rain and I was like, where I think I literally sat on the pavement, like, near the entrance of the Wawa and where after while he came out and said, like, basically said I had to go, um. But anyway, the point is, um, yeah. And then when I ended up at the empty, uh, abandoned shopping center that's near another, um, shopping center with a Dollar Tree and a couple other, um, stores. And so the Dollar Tree is what became, like, sort of my new bathroom once I went to that spot. And that too–

 [00:08:00]

I mean in the end though, like, I always, even there, even though they never say anything to me, I always stayed nervous anytime I'd go– Well the reason being that, like, cause I was definitely, like, big on trying to keep up with my hygiene. Um, namely like brushing my teeth? And of course, when you're doing that and that's something I would do in Wawa as well, that kind of thing– when you're doing it in a public restroom where, you know, customers still would come in. You know, like I mentioned humility the other day because so many things can be so humiliating and– and even if you don't want to talk about humility, and it can be embarrassing for anybody, because, like, realistically what I mean is it's nothing to be, like, to not know. There's a difference between being humiliated and ashamed. And it's not anything to be ashamed of.

But it can still be so embarrassing in the sense that like, of course it is humbling. Like, I mean there's more than just humbling. Like, you know, it's only– it can feel degrading of course, to be in a situation like that. Like, because it's, like, around complete strangers. And so, you know, it's more about, like, looks, or– or just the scrutiny of it. I'm just like anybody who's, like, sitting on a sidewalk. Um, and the– the kind of stuff that basically, even throughout my homelessness experiences before in my life, it was never on that level. And so for me that w– I think that in itself was a huge contributor to my trauma, because I became very traumatized psychologically by it all. And that being one reason I think, um, among–

 [00:09:23]

Now is that– sorry, go ahead.

No, it's okay. Yeah.

[00:09:24]

Just I was going to, um, to elaborate on– on a little bit of that question. What kinds of interactions did you have with people when you were in public spaces? Did people talk to you, ask questions, look at you in a specific way?

I want to say that it was more like look in a specific way because, and the thing is too, I mentioned that– that's where my homelessness– people would regularly say to me they couldn't tell I was homeless. And so I want to say it wasn't necessarily that, like, maybe that I looked homeless, but there was still something about me. First of all, I was very thin. Like I'm– I mean, um, dangerously thin. I'm only– I had no body fat on me, for that reason alone. And– and I think that, to be honest, generally speaking, even I act a little bit different just because of how I mentioned that I was so traumatized. But I was also just s– In such just, um, survival mode literally where I mentioned it just where instincts took over and I remembered, or maybe because it was after, I think our conversation the other day that I remembered afterwards what I was trying to get to the point that I was trying to make was, or maybe I said it then, whereas you're almost, like, reduced, like I say, reduced to, but in some aspects in some ways like a sort of, like I said, savage, but again, the may not be the right and the best word because savage has a negative connotation a lot of times.

But I meant more in the sense the, um, where, you know, like the way man was back in the day where it truly like, you know, when we lived outside and, you know, we obviously didn't have the same complex issues that, you know, we have what, like, and so what, I mean, I guess that, like, my life has become so basic on that level that, like, to an extent I feel as between that and the trauma that, you know, like, I just was, um, kind of acting differently. Like in saying that I'm, like, in no way do I mean like I wasn't in any way–vum, how would you say, uh, like, disruptive or anything– if anything– if anything because I was so traumatized and defensive or defensive, maybe I– that's not the right word either. I should say more like, just felt like I constantly need to protect myself.

 [00:11:30]

If anything I– I would say discreet. And one reason for that being, why I need to protect myself on so many different levels, one of them being, like, what I– the examples I gave her, the reaction of that manager, things like that. Like, where literally, like, everything that we take for granted becomes– if it feels like more– more of a threat where it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I just need to come in here because I just want to, like, use the bathroom. I just want brush my teeth. But again, you know, the average person doesn't go into a public restroom and brush their teeth or quote unquote wash up. Of course I didn't wash up like that. But, um, so, like, it's in that sense that everything, like, you– you're sort of constantly on edge, and you're constantly on high alert, and so for that reason– and that's why, like, you know, when I talk about it on hindsight, it makes absolute sense to me that I was so traumatized psychologically and so that trauma impacted, like, just the way that I was in general, like again, where, like, I literally was just in survival mode and just everything that I did was about a necessity and nothing more.

 [00:12:28]

And so, and– and that again, you know, the anxiety level is because you're in a heightened state of alert all the time, your anxiety levels up here. It can't not be. And especially between that and even different exchanges that I'd have whenever I would see my mother and the threats that she posed to me as well. But there were real, it's like I even– how I mentioned this show as far as, like, calling police on me, threatening to have me hospitalized when it was so uncalled for. If you asked me when I remember that it was specifically the time that she was the one who had found the motel studio and studio six in East Brunswick and that, like– like, I'm realizing now that, you know, like, basically I just didn't want to go in there because this was after months of, like, being going from hotel to hotel and in between just const– continuously struggling and half starving and it's like, you know, it's only a matter of time before, you know, someone, like, gets to the point where they just can't deal with it anymore.

 [00:13:19]

And so for her reaction to be like a further threat, we were just insane to me. And so, like, to me, I think it's very fair to mention her because, again, I think that she was such a huge contributor, as I said, to the point where, you know, as horrible as it is for someone to be neglectful or absent in a situation like that, I want to say someone like a parent especially that you've actually reached out to, you know, as horrible as someone not being present in the situation like that is I feel as though, like I said, too, in some ways it's worse to be present, but in that way, like, where it was just, uh, a negative presence. So, um, it's a good question that you asked as far as like, um, like, [clears throat] like, ways of surviving and you mentioned in, um, if that was a word you used– ingenious ways of like coming up with– because you– that– that's a good point because, again, in the end, like, even the littlest things, you know, become such a challenge and– but at the same time, not going to lie, even when you asked me just before, like, it's such a sensitive topic for me that it's– it's hard.

 [00:14:17]

Even right now, it's hard for me to talk about it because, when I think of, like, even something as simple as, um, you know, I had, like, at one point I ended up, uh, I mentioned– I think the really probably the only thing or quote unquote favor, if you could call it that, my mother did for me was, keeps some of the stuff, uh, some of my belongings– For me, when I say that is literally almost nothing. We're talking, like, two bags of stuff. And even then, like I said, she made a huge deal of it, but more because, whenever I would need access to some of that, of those things, it would be more of an inconvenience for her to, like, to the driving. It's like, how– so it's like– to me that's like the epitome of narcissism. Somebody who, like, you're worried about,like, your– your trips and, like– like, possible gas money that you're wasting.

 [00:14:59]

Did you realize that for me, my life, like, this was about my livelihood? It's like how can, like, you act like, oh, it's such an inconvenience to you if I need access to, like, um, you know, some things that were, like, necessities for me? And some of that being papers. And towards the end when I realized, like, well– because when I realized that, like– then sometimes when I would need some stuff from her that I couldn't get it, I was like, I would have so much enough of don't my mother that I just asked for all of my stuff. And that's when I mentioned, like, the bushes that I was sleeping near. I put all of my stuff there and, um, thank God, again, because it was a spot that no one would go by, like, my stuff was safe. Um, and– but I also did notice, and thank goodness it's, like, certain, there are times and places that, like, some people, like, can tell when it's somebody– a homeless person's stuff.

 [00:15:50]

And thank God they usually leave it alone. I say it, but only like certain spots, you know, you can do that. At a place like New Brunswick for example, you couldn't, or New York or Philly. Cause, um, I mentioned that I started out on the streets actually back in February, so a year ago this month, in Philadelphia. And so, um, but in this situation, like, I knew that that was so, like, I could trust it. Like, and– and even that's an example of, like, where your instincts– you kind of just listen to your instincts because your instincts tell you things like that. [clears throat]

 [00:16:19]

What about the– the police, in terms of your belongings or your interactions with them, you mentioned a little?

It's so hard [sniffs].

 [00:16:26]

And you don't– don't feel like you need to answer if you don't wanna talk about it.

What's just so insane it– it's like how it's in times like this that I do realize how, like, how much it affected me emotionally, because these are the things that, like I said, I don't revisit.

And even, um, that I've– I said I think that even just, uh, naturally that, like, my brain somehow put it away somewhere so that even if it's not revisiting it intentionally like now, like, but it's still, you know, like, things can still come up. It actually– but that's the thing they do throughout, like, my everyday life. Certain things do come back sometimes, but as I've said, I think that, um, anytime it does, I sort of just, like, just let it go. I kind of push it away. Um, and– and so, like, specific questions like that, because you mentioned police, and precisely I want to say that if you asked me what my, um, experience with police was as a homeless person, literally with police fifty-fifty. But unfortunately more than negative fifty percent is not policing itself. Believe it or not, it's more other people, like, reaching out to police and using them.

Because as I had– that is something I touched on last time as well. How oftentimes people do treat the homeless like they're some kind of threat to them, when oftentimes, and I'll speak for myself because I can't, you know, honestly, I can't speak for all homeless people, because even me having been homeless myself on the streets, like, you know, even places like the soup kitchen and having been in that environment myself. Well actually that's, uh, something that I haven't talked about at all is other homeless people. How can they– they were a threat to me as well. Um– um, because realistically I feel as though, even though I myself am part of that statistic of homeless people, I can also understand to an extent others because, again, like even me as a homeless person, like, I had bad interactions with other homeless people and, um, and– and that also did big time contribute to, um, my trauma because I mentioned the first time I actually started going to Elijah's Promise was in May because I happened to be in New Brunswick.

[00:18:29]

Um, if you asked me right now, like, I wouldn't remember exactly how I got to New Brunswick, but it's probably, um, like, I'd have to think about it, but it was from being in New Brunswick that I happened to find Elijah's Promise, just for, you know, like, of course you're always trying to find resources when you're out there. But the point, and that was in May as I mentioned. And because of what happened at Boys [sic: "Boyd" is correct] Park one time with the guy, like– like, uh, by law, it's assault what he did. And you know that that was the day that I walked all the way to my mother's and Middlesex from here and spend four to five days in her van. And then from there I was back out again. And because of the bad experience in New Brunswick, not just that specific time in the park.

 [00:19:07]

I was, I think I said exactly twelve days on the streets in New Brunswick. Um, that's why I ended up going to East Brunswick where that's where I just felt a lot better and just felt safer. Um, but the point is that thought though, those couple of weeks in New Brunswick, it wasn't only that incident in the park, it was also the times, even though I'd go to, um, the soup kitchen, well I think already I was in such a state of trauma then that, like, I– I sort of generally, like, um, I– it was my reaction towards the other homeless people that, because it's sort of, I want to say that, like– like– like, I've noticed that all people there sort of are on the defense. So, because my reaction was to, like– I think they would take my reactions as being aggressive and so their reactions would be, like– like, uh, negative back to me with, I would then take that as a threat.

 [00:19:56]

Like, if that makes sense. And I'm still, like, the point is that even at the soup kitchen was, you know, which was somewhere I'd go to eat. It's that environment felt like a threat to me. And– and– and, uh, when I started going back in September, like I mentioned, believe or not, like, I ran into a couple of several people, like, periodically who would say to me, “Oh, I remember from when– back then,” and they tell me stories, the interactions they have with me, I didn't even remember, well actually made me laugh and it was good that I was finally able to even, like, look back and laugh at some things where the one guy, where he said to me that, like, you all– and it wasn't actually at the soup kitchen but, you know, people that would see me on the streets and the one guy, he said that one time near, like, I think the bus stop me in the public safety center.

He's just like, “Oh, hi, how are you doing?” Or something? And I was like, he said that I respond to him and – Is it okay if I curse? [chuckles] - Where I just said to him, “Oh, how do you think I'm fucking doing I'm on, I'm on homeless. How do you think I'm fucking–” that that was my reaction. I don't remember. Well actually I do though. I have a vague memory of that. But if he hadn't even pointed out to me, that's the kind of memory that I probably would've never resurfaced. And then another one who said to me, I think where they were at the soup kitchen, they were finally, like willing to approach me because I could tell that they approached me– um, uh, sort of cautiously because– but they thought they could because they could tell that I guess I was sort of friendly with people.

 [00:21:14]

And before then I hadn't been, but this other one said that, um, he had mistaken me for somebody else who knew and it was right near the kitchen, but as I was going in– but still the point is these interactions precisely were when I was out there in the streets. And because of some of the things that I'd been through any time– And, you know, this is just common sense. A woman alone especially is–is definitely more vulnerable than a guy. Bottom line is a woman and especially alone. And so, like, it would always be guys would approach me. And so realistically, like, if I had to react that way, who knows what could have happened and sometime well, but in saying that and precisely sometimes, like, I got lucky with these two specific people, the one that I just mentioned, another one who said, well yeah, he– he took me for somebody he knew and he thought I was her for a second.

And uh, he told me– he told me, I basically, like, told him off when he was like, “Oh, hi.” And that I just told him the F off or something. And he later when he told me about it, he showed me a picture of his friend who actually, like, I can see the resemblance but– but actually I mentioned that reacting that way was also a bad thing because, like, if it was precisely, somebody who didn't mean well, and I think that when I mentioned the guy in the park, it doesn't obviously doesn't justify at all what he did, but I think that was one of the times where I reacted in way that he probably took it as me being aggressive when reality, like, I did nothing to him and he approached it, got physical with me, and– but all that to say, um, that, yeah, and then that the– the environment at the soup kitchen, it truly isn't– it's not exactly a good environment.

 [00:22:45]

And so it's that much worse when you're in that type of– in that state of mind where you, you know, it is predominantly men there. And, um, you know, not to mention that I definitely, like, you could tell I was vulnerable more than now. And so, and– and guys would come up to me, made comments, and I, like, I just couldn't, I didn't want it. And so if God forbid, like, in an environment like that, I, even if it was just me standing up for myself, I reacted in a way they didn't like that it would be bad. It would be worse. And to the point where, believe it or not, they actually ended up frigging police was calling me there and that, but I'm seeing that. But I mean, there's a reason they let me back there in September. Marisol, like, could tell you firsthand, like, the guy, the one who worked there, like, he ended up being fired because, like, the point I'm making is that some things were absolutely, like, um, unwarranted and, like, Chef Curtis– there was something–

I'll never forget. He, I feel– I felt as though he was the only one who had the most insight, who could tell that whatever, uh, actual reactions that I'd have that, you know, like– like he was only one who had insight on– on why. And I've all– one thing I do very vividly remember him saying was that, you know, her, she's on the streets. It's making her more like this. And it's a shame because, like, and I'm talking now about the people who work at the soup kitchen. So this is what they do for a living. They help homeless people. But that did truly is no matter what misunderstanding, even if you're there to help, like, where to the point where, as I'm saying, he, Chef Curtis was the only one who saw it that way. And I wish– and if he were– he really truly was compassionate.

 [00:24:14]

And I mean, he was my favorite because I felt that from him at the time. And I remember the disappointment that he had when that guy who, like I said, since has been fired because I believe not, I heard he was actually accused of stealing from the soup kitchen. Yeah. And– and he was– he was– was a recovering drug addict, like, um, you know, from his own account of things. And the guy was just bad news, period. And that can happen, you know, even when his volunteers, um, it actually– the reason I even went to those extremes was precisely because, like, I had held him accountable for something that, but not in any aggressive way at all. Like he just, it w– I think it was pride and ego on his part and– but that's the sad thing. And to me, this was a perfect example of the way, uh, of– of stigma and the way that, like, uh, vulnerability is exploited as a homeless person because you're homeless.

 [00:25:02]

People are so quick to just pick up the phone and be like– call police because you're a homeless person. And especially if they can tell you are, then it's so easy to blame the homeless person. And I can't tell you how many times did it happen to me. And I mean, I'm right now, I'm giving you an example from the soup kitchen itself. And it's sad when it's an actual worker, but I think it's also good to point that out to you. And I'm glad that I did even remember that because, again, it is an example of how stigma is rampant. But even within the field itself and that, even if I think that unconsciously, most people have it, even if they don't realize they do. As a matter of fact, um, you know, I mentioned a couple of times now I'm– Chef Curtis, but even where, you know, he can find me some things without going to too many details, but that, you know, the– the, a lot of the, um, volunteers are actually afraid and have fear towards those homeless people.

 [00:25:51]

As much as– as I said myself, that I can understand it only to an extent because I feel as though that– that fear, it kind of sometimes goes too far. And I mean, in the end, you know, the– the things have also often been defined as, you know, when– as human beings, when we don't understand something, like, a lot of times stigma comes from that, things we don't understand and the fear around it. Yeah. And, but I guess again, what I'm saying is I feel– I can see from both perspectives and I wish it could be more of a middle ground because it's sort of one extreme or the other. Because, as I said, I actually do understand at the same time the fear of the people. And because a lot, a lot of times it is also justified fears because I'm seeing it even as me, uh, my experience as a homeless person from other to be other homeless people truly worth threat.

 [00:26:36]

So if they can be a threat towards another homeless person, well even though you can also, um, sort of explain that as well in the sense of like, well, as a homeless person, they're aware that you've been homeless are maybe that much more vulnerable, you know, and for sure that was a, uh, one reason. But another reason I believe is that truly, a lot of times almost, people, while they're also dealing with all kinds of issues, most times psychological issues. And even though, you know, like, I've– ‘cause I've read up on homelessness and– and more and more like I– I've read on how I guess people believe that homelessness is like a, I want to say symptom or an aftereffect of mental illness. That's what they say. Not so much like as much as, um, I feel that homelessness can have– have, like, obviously psychological impact on, like, I talk about me and I, uh, clearly I have, I must have PTSD from it.

 [00:27:28]

I mean I say I must have, I know that I do because it's like I know that I did, you know, especially when I was, like, experiencing the trauma. But I think, like, for the simple reason that I mentioned that the last three months, just the stability of– of having somewhere to go every day and having food, it has gotten me in a more positive state. But realistically, well I'm also a resilient person that I tend to bounce back pretty quickly. But to a point where that can also be a bad thing if I don't– if I'm not careful because like I almost forget that, you know, it doesn't mean it's don't– doesn't have an impact on me. It's still there and precisely these are good reminders for me because of how immediately sort of like, you know, the tears are there right away. Like, I know realistically that I still has a huge impact on me.

 [00:28:09]

It doesn't just go away like that, you know, but the point is that, like– so what I'm seeing is that, like, homelessness can have psychological effects. And so I was thinking of it more that way, that, um, well because it truly can be too, that, um, you know, like for me, I want to say, like, I took a lot of it as, like, unfortunate circumstances. Uh, people call it, like, unlucky. I don't know if you want I call unlucky was more than unfortunate. You know, I mentioned, like, moving from one country, like, one continent to another is for another after so many years, you know, without any support that can leave anybody homeless, especially in such a difficult [inaudible]. Um, and so I think before I started reading, like, recently about how they often– they truly believe that like ninety-nine percent of people who are homeless due to mental illness.

 [00:28:55]

Although, you know, when I first read that I was a bit shocked because I want to challenge that, especially nowadays, like, you know, with the– the economy and just life being more– more challenging that, um, but–but it's still– it made me think, though, because I feel as though at the same time I see what they mean because, um, and that's the point I'm finally getting to is I almost want to say it's sort of like a vicious circle because it actually– it feels that the root can be mental, like, psychological issues period. And that, like, no matter what you want to call it, ‘cause I just simply don't like the terminology, mental illness because there's also– there's a lot of things that are specific to America. God forbid, some people if–if God forbid I mentioned anything about the U.S. I say some people will– usually they're the more uneducated, realistically, the more uneducated people who immediately take that as some kind of attack.

I'm American myself, this is not anti America. This is from having the perspective of being European as well and know having lived there for as long as I have. So is that, that the point is that things are truly, I want to say more specific to America. Um, as far as like, like, for example the same mental illness, like, this is very much a country of labels and that to me being one of them where, like, firstly the term illness sounds so chronic and so, um, personally, like, I know they want to, like, be as scientific as they want and they can be [inaudible] all they want. But mental illness, like, I started psychology many years ago when I started Rutgers and just from what I read then, but it's even more, um, than just, you know, what I read when I was at Rutgers, but like it was– it's never since they improve in that– mental illnesses is biological in my opinion, with so many things.

 [00:30:28]

Anyway, it's a mix of both genes and environment, like, I feel that with that can apply to so many things in life. Like, for instance, one thing that I'll always remember that, um, I kept in mind that many years ago, uh, a therapist had said was that environment or that genes load the gun and environment pulled the trigger. I think that's a really good way to put it because, in other words, I personally– I feel that people can be predisposed genetically. Absolutely. Because you can't deny genes, you know, like, but that environment is more important because either like pulls a trigger, or it doesn't. And so the point is so, like, I know I'm– I'm sort of, like, I'm not getting away from the point that I'm making because yeah, it's just that for me it's important. Um, the fact that I'm going back to where, like– like, I guess I understand and believe that there must be a lot of truth to, you know, a lot of homeless people or people who have chronic homelessness or, I mean not defined the way– chronic homelessness is defined a specific way.

 [00:31:23]

But to me, chronic homelessness is when you've struggled with homelessness throughout your life. You know, I think that there has to be some kind of underlying psychological issue. And again, that's my terminology about mental illness. And– and again, there's a reason I want to define it the way I just did because, again, um, more in the sense that I do believe, you know, just from having been around other homeless people and even my own personal situation that absolutely there's– there's some kind of like a history as far as, I mean, one of the first questions you asked me was, “How was your childhood brought up?” And I think that definitely contributes hugely to people who end up having issues with homelessness. You know, like what– when you're not given the tools in life, you know, that you– psychological tools, you know, like all kinds of– when I say tools, I mean, you know, psychological of how to handle life in general.

 [00:32:12]

Um, then on top of– of course, the other challenges of the economy. That doesn't help at all. Um, but the point is that, yes, so after reading that as much as it's shock to me, because I want to say even it was almost like a disappointment when I read that. Oh, they think that most people were homeless. It means most– most of them have some kind of mental illness. And it almost makes it seem that people who– who wrote way, like, have this idealistic view of homelessness that– oh, like, where they want to put them all in one category and want to tell themselves that, “Oh, you know, it can only happen then because they're mentally ill, they're sick.” I think that's what bothered me about what I read. Like, you know, and I guess I have to separate my, um, opinion or personal emotions of it.

 [00:32:57]

And then the fact that, like, um, it doesn't mean that there's no truth to it. I mean, as much as, like, what makes something a fact, it doesn't mean it's a fact either. But the point is, I– I– after reading it, I do see that there's definitely a good point and more as I've just said. The way I think that I define mental illness as far as, like, if you want to talk about, like, you know, having a complete lack of family support and pretty much, you know, sort of throughout your childhood and life in general, um, you know, especially emotional abuse and the impact it can have, and then the challenges that that can lead to in your life. Um, and the thing is though, the more that I've been around the soup kitchen and now the homeless shelter and the type of, even in the homeless shelter, how challenging an environment that is.

And even before going in there, I knew the toxic environment from when I had been in Camden. And even just in general, like, you know, realistically, I know the kind of, and again, not to sound like I'm stigmatizing myself or– or more than just stigmatizing or even like I'm discriminating, but I'm being realistic about it as well, is that I've gotten to core– I've so much had enough of this environment because I'm not trying to single myself out, but I also know, and that's the thing, that's why I feel I had these struggles more because of my life was– Like I know I have potential that I'm smarter and that if, if at 42, yesterday that, you know, I'm more, I am in my life and not further along is because of lack of support, you know, I do believe will– not to mention, yes, like I mentioned the emotional issues I grew up with and that, you know, that in itself is something huge to overcome.

 [00:34:23]

Some people never over even overcome those things to have a quote unquote normal life. And I did touch on the fact that I– a little bit in my time traveling for me was a time where I did a lot of self work. Um, you know, uh, of overcoming a lot of that emotionally, I want to say. Um, but now being in this constant, like what I call again toxic environment or certain, you know, I– I feel as though, like, I'm just, I don't belong sometimes. I've lately to where I even feel like I stick out like a sore thumb. So once again, I don't want to sound like I'm saying, yeah, homeless people are a specific type, but, and I know I'm sort of taking forever to get to– the point is that, like, I started telling myself, you know, what, like where, you know, um, sometimes, like, people think, “Oh, they're like that because they're homeless and I've gotten to the point where–”

No, I feel like the, you know, what realistically a lot of people, a lot of people are homeless because of how they are because of the attitude they have because, and I– because I s– so much where it's like they feel a lot of, um, situations that I've experienced with some people, like, in the shelter or at soup kitchen don't know first thing about how to just, like, treat a person. Like just having common courtesy. And where definitely, they have issues.

 [00:35:38]

[SNEEZE] I'm just gonna grab a cough drop.

Oh yeah, no problem. [chuckles] Yeah. That's why I'll still bring my water.

You mentioned some of the differences between Europe and the United States, do you feel like homelessness is viewed very differently here versus there?

 [00:35:54]

That's also a good question because, um, I, you know, experienced homelessness in London as well. As a matter of fact, that's funny because I– I am still good friends with someone in London that, um, I think I mentioned last time as well that, um, I was sometimes in contact with, and that was one of the topics was the differences because– and in London, not to go into too much detail, well even not because, unfortunately, there's so much exploitation in the rental sector in London. It's, like, a known thing. Rogue landlords is becoming, like, a real problem. Um, I want to say more than here. Well cause exploitation– it's everywhere, boom out there. Some of the stuff they get away with is unreal. Like, that's obviously now, like, an experience of London, England– Well London more specifically. But, um, it's hard to compare to be quite honest because, like, an precisely what my friend, like, I will talk about how I can't say that it's better in one, like, one place or the other.

 [00:36:49]

Some things are easier being homeless in London and some things are easier here and vice versa. More than this– like, more because of the setting. Like, um, there's some things about a city that comes with its advantages that don't when you're in the outskirts, like, even transportation wise, like, you're safer in the city because there's sidewalk everywhere. That's one of many examples. But then there's also downsides to a– this what you were asking more specifically in Europe or in England wall since that's where I was, um, if it's viewed differently–

Or– or the experiences if you–

 [00:37:19]

Sure. But actually– so that's a good question because precisely I remember, especially in the beginning that I did feel that I actually felt more scrutinized here than I did in London and maybe, like, not for good reason as far as London go. Maybe because it's just more common or I want to say more common realistically.

Having been homeless here– it seems like there's a lot of homeless here but– but maybe, like, ‘cause at the time it felt like it was more common in London. But I want to say that maybe it is like, um, maybe just in Europe in general, but like in London. Yeah. I just feel as though, um, and that too, maybe it really, this is not very like a good reflection of America, but I really–  because this too– I– there's no denying it for me, especially having spent that much time in England that, like, America truly is– this is another thing that, like–  like, you know, a side of America, I don't like that they– it truly is all about so much more about status in this country, the way people– people– there's just more arrogance. Like, people are less down to earth. And on that level if you want to ask, like, because I think there's an even bigger separation of rich and poor and in America and that I want to say as a homeless person, I felt that absolutely more than I did in London.

Like, um, being on the streets, ‘cause I was half on the streets, like I said, not ever sleeping outside like I have here, but I pretty much, you know, I– I lived in a homeless shelter for three months out there as well, and during the day– and we'd have to be, and this was in the middle of winter, we have to be out during the day. And so, you know, it's a lot like being on the streets but just not sleeping. Um, and although, you know, a couple of times it did happen where I literally had nowhere to go, but anyway, so yeah, I'd say that there still isn't– I feel as though, yeah, they're– they're more that you feel more scrutinized, and some like Americans who, um, I– I just– I do feel like Americans tended to be a bit more self-absorbed. Like, in their bubble. And this is very much a society of to each their own and stepping on a head to get above.

 [00:39:21]

You know, it's more like that here. It's s– sad but true. And if it wasn't for the fact that, you know, something that I already knew and didn't like about America before, uh, I moved, uh, overseas, but because I live five years straight in England, I– I– I feel like I– I noticed that even more, like, the differences were so striking when I moved back. And so as far as I– and then– and then on the flip side, like I said, then there were also things about here in America that are more positive than in–  in England because, and I say England only because that's where I was. So I don't like to generalize too much, although sometimes you can generalize when it comes to Europe, but, um, but then there's also sides to Americans that are great that you don't so much see in Europe or elsewhere.

Um, then when you do come across the Good Samaritan Americans, I mean, and I want to say that side is more because there's so many more religious people in America that it's more that side of it. ‘Cause if you think about it, a lot of the organizations that help the homeless are religious organizations. And I mean in saying that sometimes it's more like this is really truly how I feel as well, by the way. And again, somebody who thinks I'm anti-America could think, “Oh my God, you're just trashing America.” I don't care because I'm not. I'm just– the way I see is, and I don't want to lose sight of being grateful either. Like, don't get me wrong because, like, it doesn't. But I– what I was just saying about the religious people, there's also, like, a superficial side to Americans. Realistically, I f– I felt it and being European as well, that I feel Europeans just don't have.

 [00:40:48]

And the religious aspect– as much as there are some true Christians there are also a lot of, for me, like, it's very true that America is, like, is, uh, they're very extreme when it comes to religion. Like, and that too was so striking to me. Like, I had forgotten being gone so long when I came out as a why they won't talk about God all the time. Like every– like every other signs are their mouth was God. And it's like you just don't experience that. I mean– oh, that's right! You lived two years in Ireland, so you probably know too what I mean. And even though I grew up in New Jersey, it felt weird for me. And so the fact that even having grown up here, like, it made me feel that uncomfortable. I can't imagine what it must be like for a European person who's never stepped foot in America–

 [00:41:26]

How shocking some things must be. Because between that and, believe it or not, one of the most striking things that, like, really it was a turn off for me was, well, because initially I moved back to California where I'd never been, because, again, I want to come back here with no support or anything. I sort of made me more anti-New Jersey I guess bomb somebody that, like, uh, a friend of mine, uh, just sort of a friend of mine that, like, introduced us, like, from far away because this is a friend of his who happened to have just moved in the same areas me as– well anyway, but that this person was, like, um, over lunch and it wasn't like a romantic meet or anything like that. It was just like a friendly meeting. But, um, just when you could tell him what she was trying to prove, like– like– like that he can afford lunch and, you know, he's profession, somebody at the soup kitchen, that happened yesterday actually to talk to me about– it's like one of the only people at soup kitchen where you could tell, like, he's a bit cul– cultured, you know– knows because he's traveled a lot apparently.

And that's something I don't meet every day, especially as an American, even though younger people travel more nowadays than they used to. But anyway where he said it without me saying anything where he's like, yeah, now– now when you have a conversation with somebody in America, like within a few minutes and a conversation to asking you what you do for living, things like that. And it's like you can go hours talking to somebody near them. That's not going to be the thing is, because people who have really set to prove themselves, and now I also feel– so that's why, like, I noticed people always have a reason to be depressed. They seem to not, like, really, like, know how to enjoy life. But I feel like it's unfortunate because we do it to ourselves and it's because of the way society is and the pressures that we put on ourselves to be the better one to, like, have the nice house to– the good car and all, that in the end people are feeling down because– because they're always, you know what I mean?

 [00:43:12]

Like it's always about comparing each other and that– and realistically, because it is truly hard to, it rough to make it out here is not what people in Europe, they also had this misconception of America. They still do because of Hollywood. And it's not what people think, you know, America is not the dream or the gold rush anymore, you know? Uh, so, but I'm sort of losing myself because, back to what I was actually saying about the differences, oh yeah. That I've mentioned people who are religious? Then there's still this sort of like, all that is joining back to what my point was with that, is that I still feel it's sort of a superficial thing with religious people. It's still more about, like, a sort of duty they feel that they– it's sometimes, and you can even tell sometimes when people, when they're truly doing it from their heart or if they're doing– because to look like the good Christian because of, like, you know, the religious beliefs they have.

[00:44:01]

And– and there's a lot of that. And that kind of bothers me because it's like, but in saying that, like in the end, I don't want to lose sight of being grateful because, at the same time, if it wasn't for that and those people and they're still doing it, like, and so for me, being a homeless person, I've definitely been grateful for that. And so– but that's what I meant when I said, like, the differences between America and Europe as far as like, then there's these American sides that you don't find so much in Europe. And if it wasn't for these religious groups, then at the same time I wouldn't have these certain advantages here that I don't, that you don't find so much in England or in Europe. You know what I mean? So that's a difference too. Um–

 [00:44:37]

Do you think that it's a– your experience– was it easier to find the resources that you need in terms of shelter and food assistance and–

Here, here the answer is like immediately here.

Really?

 [00:44:49]

Yeah that actually– that probably based on your question and the very thing that I should have said actually, yeah, there's absolutely more help. But I mean I say that, but I've been going on and on like precisely from my home says about how much more health there is out here. But in seeing that at the same time, probably because I'm also an American citizen because I like– the thing for me that made it that much more challenging in England, believe it or not, was being a non-English citizen made all the difference. Although I still think generally if you ask like there's more help here and I think ‘cause realistically there's more money in– this country has more money. I mean, even for example, I mentioned that I got into the shelter I am now since I got there end of November. So I was there for Christmas and man, this Christmas [cough] between the shelter and even like the soup kitchen– everywhere!

Like, I ended up getting all these presents, and not just presents, but things that I never expected in a million years. Like, I was so unbelievable. I felt so blessed. And for me, as a matter of fact, I can not think of how, like, I was embarrassed for some of the ways that these adults– And I say adults because it's a family shelter solution. Kids– and the kids would get showered with presents, which was great for them. But some of the reactions from these, the people that adults at the shelter are so embarrassing to me because– where– you know, they were so ungrateful sometimes and where they became even– um, what sort other thing did they act very, um, entitled, but, and again, I am going to, like, broaden that by saying that, uh, that is also, I want to say more of American mentality as well.

 [00:46:18]

Like, something that you can't not feel, also after, especially, like, when you've lived overseas, struggling as well, like I did for me, you know, like, I was in England but actually struggling. So I know that side of it as well. And so where I can truly compare with similar, um, lifestyles, you know, in different places, but that Americans in general tend to be sort of spoiled as self-entitled people, you know, like if this the truth, like, and even even you can pick, well that's why a lot of times Europeans pick, that's something that I think they pick up on even from American-well, Americans when they travel to their countries. You know, how, like, Americans can sometimes act in foreign count– and so I know, again, I'm probably sounding more and more like, I guess I'm not gonna lie, part of me. Of course, there's certain things about American mentality that I don't like, but more so for good reasons because I myself as an American, like, you know, wish that we had a different, um, reputation because realistically, we actually do have reputation in most of the world–

 [00:47:19]

And Americans sometimes wonder why, but it's like, you know, don't wonder why, like, but then again, don't– get me wrong. I said, then there's a lot of positives to America and and– and– and also a lot of negative sides to London especially. I mean, even the five years that I was living there, in the five years I was there, it changed a lot and for the worse. And so there's a reason that I wanted to come back to America because there's also a lot of pluses that, um, I missed when I was gone from there. You know, it's the kind of thing we say, you don't know what you're missing until it's gone. And it's very true. And, like, while I was some precisely some of the struggles that I ran into overseas, you know, there were things about America that I appreciated for the first time in my life, you know–

 [00:47:54]

That I never thought I would have, for instance, what I mentioned earlier when I said how, uh, rampant, uh, um, uh, exploitation rental sectors in Lon– like really, really bad. Like, and I mentioned some things wouldn't even– some things here, some people wouldn't even think of doing, I think. Um, because, and one reason that I– I mean this is my interpretation of it, but I feel so there, um, something that I used to criticize and a, you know, to an extent I still do, but, you know, how in America people sue left and right so easily, and that's something that, you know, in Europe we just, it's unheard of. But in saying that, I felt as though, like, some like that that serves its purpose, the fact that in America we can do that, it serves its purpose to an extent because precisely it's sort of security too in the sense there's something that people don't even think of doing because they know they could get sued, you know?

And so something like that. And– and just other precisely just opportunities that, um, I feel we have in America that, like, I just was missing in Europe when I was struggling. So as I said, one reason being, like, you know, the fact that I'm American citizen, it makes it easier. But even in general, I think there's definitely more help. Like, and maybe ‘cause there's more budget here, but like even, like, something as little as goody bags that they give out regularly or even, you know, something that you just don't come across so much in London. Like I said, I really was homeless. I didn't say before but, believe it or not, I was one– the homeless shelter I was in was actually convent, believe it or not, run by nuns. So it was nuns running the homeless shelter. But come think of it, I mean that was also Christmas time and it's so weird because I just realized that the other day that the timing is so weird.

 [00:49:31]

I had gotten to that shelter 27th of November and I got to this top shelter 27– 25th of November. And the time limit there was actually three months. So, like, my time up there was a day, my birthday is 27th of February and here it's– it's– it's just, you know, it can be extended, but the point is because of it– it was crowded around Christmas time there too. We did get some presents. But nothing like here, like, so, you know, it's not entirely like, you know, there–  there definitely is still help. And– and I know realistically, I can't even talk about France because I'm now thinking, I have a friend that I just recently spoke to that from France and he happens, I didn't even know this! He happens to be living in a homeless shelter himself, uh, in Paris and he's been there for months and months. And apparently the fact that it sounds like a more, um, sort of permanent thing.

 [00:50:20]

And, like, when he told me that the fact that it's not even, like, temporary, like a lot of the shelters here, I was really surprised because it made me, uh–  and then I have this other friend of mine, unfortunately– I mean, her story is horrible. Like really bad– she–she almost was almost murdered by her husband who is now in prison. Yeah. And she's next week going into a domestic violence shelter as well for women. Uh, I mean, she survived some awful things, but, um, the point is, yeah, so she's going into a domestic violence shelter. And just different assistance programs that she's told me about. And the point being that it sort of made me think, oh wow, there must be like, um, more programs out in France than I even thought there were, and maybe because of my experience in London, it made me sort of at the time just feel like, oh man, I mean, Europe's bad and there's no help at all. But, you know, like I think again with London it was more because of not being a citizen and–

 [00:51:12]

Um–but as I said, yeah, there definitely still is just more, we got more help here and I'm seeing that and I– it was hard for me not to mention, like, just the sort of, um, mentality that people have towards that here in America. Because the point is that a lot of times, like, uh, Americans complain and always talking about what they don't have, but they don't realize,like, how much more help they actually have. I guess I can't blame 'em. At the same time ‘cause they don't have something to compare it to, like I do. And I want to say to that end, I feel as though the fact that I am able to see differences, it makes this experience that much easier for me and just more grateful. And if– even to a point feeling blessed because I know how much harder it could be. Um, so yeah.

So what are some of your thoughts about the solutions to some of these challenges, both at the, you know, the smaller level as well as the larger level? Does it seem to be a question of economics, of– of poverty or of housing or– or do you think it's a policy issue? Personal issue? People– you know–

Yeah, it's like a mix of things. I think one of the big ones is housing, unfortunately. And that's what you read about as well. Realistically that is a biggie. I think it has been for many years, especially in New Jersey once again because housing is so high. Um, that and then as far as what you just said, as far as like, um, even people on a smaller level, like awareness and that's part of what you're doing, that is huge. Like when people, well you know, and– and I think back in the day probably homelessness was eight and more, even more than now. And so if people walk around thinking it's not a problem, like, so they're not even aware of it, how can– how can any change happen? So that's a big one. I think awareness. And even towards even, as far as the mentality towards homelessness and the stigma and all that, like if people are more educated on like, you know, the different people that– that can reach that that can happen too. To–

 [00:53:08]

And– Yeah. How the economy, yeah, I think again, housing is a big one. I know that in New Jersey for that reason, they have been dedicated on– on creating more low income housing. As matter of fact, one of the ones I might be getting, I'm having an appointment for next week. It's like finishing the you built now and specifically low income housing. And so I mean, yeah, I guess it's, you know, such a big issue to be able to answer. Uh, you know, so simply. But I would say those, those two, and again, like a little bit of everything because I don't deny, like I said, because I myself firsthand see how some of these people– actually, I feel as though absolutely that there's mental health behind it, again, I prefer the term mental health than illness because we all like, like one person said, we all have mental health.

 [00:53:59]

Like –like we all just, like, we all have health. Um, you know, there's the physical and mental, but, um, and I think that unfortunately that does contribute, that it's a big part of it. Like as far as, you know, what can lead to certain problems that then lead to homelessness as well. Um, but then there still is a solution to that with specific programs and assistance that a lot of them are already in place. But then I guess, you know, if you ask me, there's no perfect world. And I feel as though, you know, like we, we always want the world to change for the better and like to an extent in some areas we have, but I feel as though some issues realistically are always going to be around because there's no such thing as a perfect world. And like ever, you know, I guess maybe I'm just– I'm seeing that as I get older that, you know, like I've sort of always been the ideal type.

 [00:54:47]

And then as you get older, who sort of the ideal is those idealistic views fi– Fe– fate a little bit, you know? And, um, yeah, like sometimes there's no real, like, complete solution that, you know, there's always going to be a new challenge that's going to, you know–  like you might find a solution to this, but then it's going to be new challenges that, uh, although it doesn't mean there can't still be progress and there have– there has been forf– for many things. Um, yeah. I mean sometimes I want to say I wish I could be part of that solution, but actually that's the thing, like I can maybe, cause we all are on a small scale, like all those people make a difference. Like, you know, because if each and every one of those said, “Oh I can't make a difference,” and nobody helped, then there wouldn't be all those people helping.

So– and yeah, to the point where I myself, um, I've always been the type to, like, to help more, more than ever now. Like, I want to volunteer on some level, like you mentioned, not specifically homelessness, but you know, people who are in need. And I'm saying that, but because I feel like I want to help people more than I used to before. Like, I've always loved animals too. And, uh, like before if you'd asked me, like, especially before last year, ‘cause I want to say this was definitely probably the hardest homelessness situation I've ever been through. Like, you know, I would want to help like the poor animals who don't ha– you know, have anything. But now, like I– I'd want to help people more than I used to. And see that in itself I think says something that when you've been through it yourself, you have a different perspective.

 [00:56:21]

And for that reason alone, it sort of gives you that drive to want to help more because you see the– For me at least, I see the difference that people make. Like, you know, I mentioned that like the– the struggles that I went through on the streets, but that they're also good people. But I had said last time too, I think that unfortunately those good experiences were few and far between, but precisely because they were, believe me, like they did– never went unnoticed, for me it made all the difference. They say, you know, like small things make it, it's very true. Like, and so the point is again, that yeah, like for me, like those small acts of kindness or anything that anyone ever did for me made such a difference for me that I tell myself, man, if I make a difference one time for one person, you know, then as matter of fact just one example, I mentioned that I had gone out of my way to get food stamps and when I finally did get my food stamps card, that on top of everything else, after the challenge it was even get it from my mother, uh, the first time I tried to use it, it was at 2:24 at Walmart to get milk and, uh, and that ca– it didn't work because I guess I didn't realize at the time that they weren't on there yet–

 [00:57:25]

The benefits or the–  but the– As I was walking away after trying it, uh, in line, I guess there was a lady behind me that I hadn't even noticed. I was just more upset over, like, not even being able to–  because that was one of the times I had gone starving for, like, at least a day or two straight. And from you– being able to drink milk would have been huge and I was always walking away like a young girl, like a teenage girl came up to me and she handed me the, uh, I think it wasn't even a gallon, like a liter of milk or something. And she said here, my mom bought it for you and I–  I went back to the line– must've been the lady behind me in line who saw, like, and like I said I looked very skinny and you could tell, you know, I had nothing on me and I went back to thank her.

 [00:58:03]

I mean for me that was, like, huge. Like it made such– and also it crossed my mind the other day when I was talking about another place that I– like that– that was one of the– one of the only times that I did the guy I mentioned earlier too, how, like, it can be so embarrassing– certain things. Like, I was so desperate and starving at one time that at the 24 hour Walmart precisely was nighttime already. Like, I actually had made myself a sign saying, uh, homeless and hungry, like– like on a little cardboard thing. And I, like, sat against the building right near the entrance and, um, believe it or not, not long– not– it didn't take long before, like– like, but this was another one of those stories where it's like, are you serious? Where the, uh, Walmart employee came to me and actually said, “You can't stay here because it's considered soliciting,” I guess what they call that.

And she says, “You can't.”  And she actually said she'd called police if I did a no– you have no idea how often I was threatened, please. But even when I, you know, I wouldn't do that really? Like it took so much guts because precisely, even when I'd starve, like, I mean for me that was the only time I actually got to that point of doing that. Um, and, but– but she, I said, okay, like, I think she said because you can't– oh, it was about asking for money where I, like I said, well, I kinda lied because, oh, I had a bucket. That's right. I also actually did have a bucket in case want–- people want to give you money. And it was more about, like, asking for money, which I guess cause there's soliciting and, uh, and I showed her the sign by saying, “Oh well I'm not asking for my– I just– I'm hungry.”

 [00:59:32]

And she came back with a bag of food that she, with her own money, and she gave me a receipt in it as well. She had bought me a salad, uh, a roll and, uh– uh, like a liter of lemonade ‘cause it was middle of summer. And I was like that– I mean like for me it felt like such a blessing. I couldn't believe I was so grateful because, again, unfortunately though reactions like that were so few and far between, like her initial reaction, I thought it was all another, you know, where the reactions so often were aggressive or nasty or not– Well, I mean I see that but other things are coming back, like are coming back to my world. Like one guy offered me twenty bucks one time, but I– I did not actually–  I refused to take it because I knew that that could be also made me vulnerable and– and it can be dangerous to accept money from a guy. That was when I was in the abandoned shopping center and where he was riding his bike.

 [01:00:23]

But the fact that he came back and made it a point to, he wants to know if I was homeless, you know, anytime it was like that, even when in reality he could've been genuinely, uh, just wanting to help, but I never trusted it. Um, but sometimes you know, would happen. Oh, and one of the time, oh I will not forget though, was the time before I went to the abandoned shopping center where I was across the hi– Wawa, where I mentioned near a industrial, like, building, like there was a, uh, a supervisor there who I guess had noticed me several times and he, like, from behind the fence, he asked me, like, I mean, obviously I was homeless. I was literally in a sleeping bag. Like to the point where today, like I guess if I had just my inistin– or maybe if I had just been like less than that state of mind that I was in, like I would have been more careful.

 [01:01:08]

Like– like where I– it's sort of like, I almost didn't care anymore. Like there were so few people who could see me that, like, I would just like sleep in the sleeping bag and sometimes, like I said, the workers, it would be guys–  I say specifically black guys, and I'm obviously not racist that too, is like, God forbid I got to watch, do I say that too? But because it's true though, like as well, I say it's true. Well the guy who was assaulted me for example at the park was a black guy. And like, I mean when I say like a– a white guy can be, uh, you know, harmful too, or a threat as well. But, um, maybe because my personal experiences were with, like, you know, black people that, you know, obviously if those are experiences, those are your traumas as well.

 [01:01:50]

And that's what's gonna, you know, be, uh, feel like more of a threat to you. But, uh, they, they never bothered me. Like, um, and what I'm saying is that like, I think that now I'd be more careful, but this– this, um, uh, this guy who was supervisor, he insisted give me twenty dollars where like–but I could tell with him, I definitely could tell where he was. He–he expected not to actually just trying to offer me a job and everything and he gave me twenty bucks. So I see. I go on and on like this with, like, examples forever. Oh. And as my– for one of the ones that stick out there, I'll never forget because I mentioned police. Was that the one poli– The one time I mentioned the transportation center last time too, where that guy was nast– He was my whole, all my times on the streets.

[01:02:35]

He was the nastiest who was like this older guy who worked at the transportation center, uh, where I guess a lot of the buses that go, um, to Wall Street. So these are like high end, I guess, clients, they travel. And it's like, God forbid they see homeless people, like, on the benches. And so– but he was really nasty about this old man where he– you could tell he kind of thrived almost on the idea of almost like it made him feel superior that he had the position of threatening police on me. You're telling me you're not allowed here. And, uh, but you know that, um, so when police came, the one time, it was during the day, the officer actually offered to take me to McDonald's and he did. He took me to Mcdonald's and he bought me two cheeseburgers and a small French fry. And so, you know, like those are the kinds of things that, you know, definitely, like, meant so much to me that I won't forget. And– and I– I– if anything wanna to remember, you know, versus um–

 [01:03:29]

Yeah, I don't think I gave you the example of, like, the guy at the laundromat who owned a laundromat last time, but it's not– it's not that important. Okay. Because it's just basically– it's a, in the end, it's just that typical example again of somebody who just is so quick to reach for the phone and threaten police only the minute they know you're homeless because they think they can. And oftentimes though it got to a point where, and that's the thing actually in East Brunswick police ended up recognizing me and becoming very, um, because the police, I mean they know the difference and they have real crime and– and real things they see besides, like if anything, a vulnerable, poor homeless person. So my points where they became very compassionate towards me. And one time, I also remember when I happened to be walking, uh, along the main road, Route 18, towards the 24 hour Walmart at night, uh, a cop car was getting to the light and I wasn't even paying attention to him.

 [01:04:19]

And he made it a point to say out of his window, uh, have a good night ma'am. With where he recognized, I recognize him when he said it, but where, um, yeah, and like one time for example, where police said to me, even in other words, what I'm saying is that a kind of picked up on the fact that they're used to getting those kinds of calls from people. Like when it comes to homeless people where they end up, like, sort of leaving the– like they answer the call because that's their job, but where the one– sometimes the police would tell me how people call us for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes for skunks, things like that, you know, just to sort of like, if anything, tell me we understand where you're coming from. But at the same time, they're a business owner. We, you know, where they sort of just go through the protocols.

[01:05:00]

Um, so that was good because I, like, I've reached a point where I felt, like, safe, if anything and not threatened. Do you know if anything? I think what made me feel so scared, police, uh, again was my mother and that few months back when she initially had threatened, even call them up and because as my mother police shows up and she gives them her whole spiel and, and being my mother of course, you know, she's believable and like, you know, they then questioned me and then they ended up leaving and nothing happened to me, but where she really put me on the spot, made me extremely nervous. And that between that and again, other situations of strangers like writing, like even the manager at Wawa being like, you know, just because I plugged my phone in in the vestibule, he was like, Oh, and if you try to get on a call police, it's like, you know that and it's– Can definitely, you know, even if the police isn't a threat, it makes me feel like they are the minute they're mentioned.

 [01:05:48]

But with East Brunswick, it got to a point where I've– I finally, if I felt comfortable and ha–-like I was the one calling a police, like, few times I did. Um, I didn't mention it earlier, but when I mentioned that abandoned shopping center because it was abandoned, there were very few people, but even from there, one time I had to call it because it just these two punks in a car one time started messing with me. Like, uh, so I called them from there one time and another time from Midstate Mall, um, in East Brunswick, um, where even on the phone I'd say to them, I'm homeless. And where, like, I ended up realizing that a police for the immediate, that I would tell them they were protective of me and if anything they didn't, they would sort of turn a blind eye to the idea of,  like, even like realistically when I think by all sort of putting myself in a predicament or of saying, “Oh, I'm calling from this abandoned shopping center because I had to tell you the location of where it happened and I'm homeless.”

 [01:06:40]

They could have tried to give me a hard time for a, what they call, like they do call that a, what is it again? Um, when you sleep outside, um, I always forget the term for some reason. What I– when I should remember.

You mean like squatting or?

Yeah, there's another word and it's not soliciting. Um–

Loitering?

 [01:06:56]

Lit– loitering! Yes. Because that's precisely– if anything, but until last year, that was a term I never understood. And maybe because sometimes, like, my French side comes out where, like, I think I always, um, associated with littering as, believe it or not. And I always –I never understood, knew that loitering meant that. And I couldn't believe ‘cause there's even fines associated with it, uh, it's– but it is– but the point is that, like, I definitely have dealt with, thank God, I ended up dealing with some police who would turn a blind eye to it because, and I say thank God because I think maybe that's something, I don't know–

Like instinctively it feels though, please may– may– maybe used to be worse before I went– Maybe I'm wrong. Like, but I– I– they– they were? The– I don't know.

There's– there's been issues for quite some time.

With police you mean?

 [01:07:44]

Yeah. With– with people experiencing homelessness.

Yeah.

Varying degrees.

Oh yeah. Uh, issue with people experiencing, you mean issues with, like, police–

Police targeting them for being homeless.

 [01:07:57]

Oh yeah. And I don't know, like I said, I feel so maybe because, like, there's so many more and more homeless people and also I do bel– realistically I think there is more awareness then you're speaking to a point where it's of course you don't want to get to where you normalize homelessness either. But where it sort of is seen as more normal than used to be. And so to the point where police, I think they're a bit more lenient or, you know, more compassionate than they used to be. So yeah.

 [01:08:26]

We have a couple minutes, if there's any concluding comments you want to make, anything you wanna–

[01:08:29]

Not really. I mean, because even that, like, sort of concluding it in one way, it's impossible when you think of like– even I think I didn't realize until really getting into all this how many different layers there are, you know, to homelessness when you go through that. Um, and like I said, and it is– it is really emotional for me every time and like, and– and difficult. But it's– it's good as well to me because it helps me put things in perspective too. And even, um, yeah, like I said, putting the perspective and be able to, um, yeah, definitely. Like I see things in a way that I never would have otherwise if I hadn't experienced it. But, um–

 [01:09:15]

And I even mean I noticed like immediately after, even during my homelessness, like, I was more giving– That I– than I'm– giving than I think that I would tend to normally be, uh, more instinctively where it's like, you know, uh, absolutely where I noticed it, like, even a dollar, two dollars, it makes a difference. That goes a long way. I mean, sometimes people talk about, like, and it's true as well. There you some people on the streets absolutely self-medicate and they'll might use that money for, you know, I'm not gonna lie. Even me sometimes I, like, I'm not an alcoholic on any level, but I would, whenever I could get a beer or not just a beer, any alcoholic drink, just to take the edge off. And that might sound like I was self medicating. Like, I wasn't. For a lot that it can become that and it's a shame, but I look at it like this, that even if that is what they're going to use, my dollar two or three, four, it's still helping them.

 [01:10:06]

Like, I mean, it's sad to say because they should get a different type of help than that, but if that's all that they, you know, can in that moment. Um, so honestly I feel like I wouldn't know how to conclude any of that. Like if there's not much, like I said, realistically I could talk and talk and go on and on and I didn't talk so much, uh, again about like different ways that I would, um, sort of, I want us to say you can just survive on a daily basis. Just one example I'll give actually, and I still have it, uh, it was, um, a mug that I had gotten from the dollar tree is store the dollar s– Um, you know, just for drinks and things and, believe it or not, like, uh, because I'd get food from the, um, food pantry as well. But of course when you can't cook, you can only get nonperishable food and there's only so much you can do with the food on the– on the street.

 [01:10:56]

And, uh, someone had given me the idea that with oatmeal you just put the oatmeal in the cup and, uh, with water and just because it was summertime, like, just let it sit there and, um, like, it just made itself, uh, I mean it's just one minor example of like, but where like, it really felt like camping or just like, you know, I want to say like one positive side, we– believe or not is that you actually do become more one with nature. As corny as that may sound. Especially, like I said, like for me when I was in East Brunswick, by then it was, like, around summertime, the whole summer I spent out there and I– you do wake up with the sun naturally and like, you know, like, I wouldn't necessarily, like, go to sleep like, uh, with the sun too. But, um, the point that I'm making is that,  like, it's weird, like I lived in a way you– just in a way you don't live when you're inside.

 [01:11:47]

It's just different. But I– this I think is the hardest thing to describe and why– Like I don't really talk about it because I don't even know how to describe the feeling of what I'm trying to say, where definitely like you– you just appreciate things on such a basic level. Normally you don't, not like– I've already noticed even, and that's why sometimes almost all my stuff, oh man, I wish I could be back to then where I appreciate things more than I do now. But of course that doesn't mean I actually want to live like that. Definitely not. But where I think that maybe naturally, and maybe it's human nature where like I've already grown apart from that, I've grown a wave where there's things that now like –like where I, well, but it's also a positive thing where like I want more where like this isn't enough.

[01:12:27]

Like when you're living like that, it's like where just, you– you just feel content, more content. With most basic things that, like, the average person wouldn't. And as I said , now I'm looking at it, the fact that I want more is also good thing ‘cause that's the only way to, you know, I'm striving for more and better. And so the way to read, it's good to have goals and reach for more, but at the same time, like I definitely feel as though I experienced something that I never really had on any level before. And I'm saying that because it's just one guy for example specifically that, um, I've been talking to regularly recently. We had met a few months back at one of the churches and he reappeared recently and he's out on the streets right now, but he– and he's always laughing and he's talking to me in a way that I was talking then or more like I know exactly what he means, how he feels like, when–

 [01:13:14]

Like I now– though, it's like I feel like, man, I'm talking to him where, where I can't understand how he's, okay. Um, it's like where– like I already feel like that feeling has become so foreign to that point of– in other words, I guess what I'm trying to say is I see that even me having experienced that, how easy it is to forget or to not understand that when you're not going through it. And I think though the– the thing that I still have a hard time understanding because it's so cold, like I don't think I could, some people can, you know, I just couldn't because, um, yeah, even before it got this cold, like it was starting to be too much for me, that part is I think the biggest thing that I don't understand about like how he's already like–and there's a couple that I've met like that who like the one for example, even he has– he had the choice of Code Blue because it's so cold and where he chooses to stay outside.

[01:14:02]

I mean obviously he has a way of doing it where he can stay warm or even if he's a big cold Lake, but, so some things, you know, I still don't get, but the point is, once again, yeah. Like that. Um, I think like in the end it's so crazy that I'm like out of my whole homelessness experience, like that's the one thing that I really, like, hold onto and I feel that like– like it gave me some kind of experience that I otherwise never would have had as far as being one with the universe on some level like that. That's so it's– it's– I want to say spiritual to an extent. It is. Not to again sound like I'm crazy or anything, ‘cause some people don't get that, you know, I'm a by nature a spiritual person, but it is, I feel as though– and also like I am a believer, I'm not a religious freak, that's what I call it.

 [01:14:49]

But I'm a believer in always having– I absolutely feel like I was surrounded by somebody. I was protected. I really do. Because, again, I had mentioned that there's just so many things that, like, that I survived that. Like I feel as though maybe I shouldn't have as sort of, like, how did I make it through that? Or how did I survive this and how am I here? And– and I let me– throughout my life in general anyway, there's some things that I've gone through that I feel as though something's intervened. Um, so yeah, I want to try to focus on,like, the positive aspect of, you know, whatever. Like I guess in generally you can always take something positive out of even difficult situations and they say if anything, and it's very true. I think that, like, trials and tribulations and very difficult situations you go through, you get some kind of blessing out of it.

 [01:15:37]

So even just for the fact that I lived the perspective that you have in life in general and, um, yeah, it just humbles you so much. Like so much. And sometimes I look around me and I feel so sorry for people who've got it all and, like, truly where it's like you wonder, man, if their world would come crashing down if they lost the slightest thing, you know, I mean, of course don't get me wrong, like money on for– she does make the world go around and I want things, but I feel like I've been blessed as well. And I try to, like, think of it that way.