Toni Hendrix
Toni Hendrix is an officer in the NAACP, a retired Division Manager for AT&T, and a CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate for Children in Foster Care) advocate. Toni narrates her life-long passion for civil advocacy and recounts the people who helped her get to where she is in her life.
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: “The State of Black Women in Corporate America,” Lean In, accessed January 24, 2022.
Learn More [2]: Adia Harvey Wingfield, “Women Are Advancing in the Workplace, but Women of Color Still Lag Behind,” Brookings, October 9, 2020.
Learn More [3]: Jocelyn Frye, “Racism and Sexism Combine to Shortchange Working Black Women,” Center for American Progress, August 22, 2019.
Learn More [2]: Michel Martin and Cassandra Dorius, “Multiple Partner Families: More Common Than You Think,” NPR: Tell Me More, April 19, 2011.
Learn More [3]: Lindsay M. Monte, “Multiple Partner Fertility Research Brief” (United States Census Bureau, March 2017).
Learn More [2]: Jon Hale, “Remembering the Legislation That Kept Northern Schools Segregated,” Pacific Standard, July 24, 2019.
Learn More [2]: “Sex Abuse and the Foster Care System,” Focus for Health, September 30, 2019.
Learn More [3]: Vaidya Gullapalli, “The Damage Done By Foster Care Systems,” The Appeal, December 18, 2019.
Learn More [2]: Connie Hanzhang Jin, “6 Charts That Dismantle The Trope Of Asian Americans As A Model Minority,” NPR, May 25, 2021.
Learn More [3]: Kat Chow, “‘Model Minority’ Myth Again Used As A Racial Wedge Between Asians And Blacks,” NPR, April 19, 2017.
Learn More [5]: Victoria Namkung, “The Model Minority Myth Says All Asians Are Successful. Why That’s Dangerous.,” NBC News, March 20, 2021.
Learn More: Farrell Evans, “The 1967 Riots: When Outrage Over Racial Injustice Boiled Over,” HISTORY, June 21, 2021.
Learn More [2]: Kenneth T. Walsh, “50 Years After Race Riots, Issues Remain the Same,” US News & World Report, July 12, 2017.
Learn More [3]: “Puerto Ricans Riots: East Harlem in 1967,” Centro de Estudios Puertorriqueños, accessed January 24, 2022.
Learn More [2]: “Digital Media Literacy: What Is an Echo Chamber?,” GCFGlobal.org, accessed January 24, 2022.
Learn More [3]: Brooke Auxier, “Social Media Continue to Be Important Political Outlets for Black Americans,” Pew Research Center (blog), December 11, 2020.
Learn More: “What Is PTSD? - PTSD: National Center for PTSD,” U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, accessed January 24, 2022.
Learn More [2]: Michele Spoont and Juliette McClendon, “Racial and Ethnic Disparities in PTSD” 31, no. 4 (2020): 12.
Learn More [3]: Craig M. Kabatchnick, “PTSD and Its Effects on Elderly, Minority, and Female Veterans of All Wars,” Marquette Elder’s Advisor 10, no. 2 (n.d.).
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Daniel Swern
Somerset, New Jersey
October 29, 2021
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
Annotations by Lanai McAuley
RECORDING ONE
[00:00:00]
Today is Friday, October 29th. It is 11:27 a.m. This is Dan Swern from coLAB Arts, here at 4303 Avery Court in Somerset. Uh, and I’m here interviewing?
Toni Hendrix.
Uh, Toni, thank you so much–
Yeah!
For your time.
It’s a pleasure! Pleasure.
Uh, and whenever you’re ready, ah, you can start from the beginning. Take us all the way back to, uh–
Ugh.
Where you grew up!
69 years ago? [laughs] That’s a long time!
[00:00:30]
END RECORDING ONE
_________
RECORDING TWO
[00:00:00]
Okay! So, 69 years ago, then I’m gonna try to remember from 69 years ago! Well. I was born in Brooklyn, New York. And I was born in what was, at the time, called “Bethel Hospital.” I now understand that it’s, um, been renamed to “Brookdale Hospital.” And I guess the very first unique part of my story starts with that, because at the time, 1952, uh, even though it was Brooklyn? There was still, um, subtle segregation that occurred in the North that not many people are aware of. So the very first introduction I had to that was being born, and my birth certificate, um, saying that I was Caucasian. And the reason for that is that, you’ve seen me dance so you know I– I tend to run on the lighter skinned, uh, spectrum of being a Black American, and I favor my mother very much. And the community we lived in was very Jewish, and they just thought my mom was Jewish! So, uh, then no one ever asked. So myself and my older sister, our original birth certificates stated that we were of– of white descent, so that was the, [laughs] the beginning of a very interesting 69 years. I learned about that, obviously not as a infant, but later on when you had to produce your– your credentials for who you are, uh, and I’ve since had, um, a new birth certificate issued and I don’t think it– don’t hold me to this, but I’m not even sure if it alludes to race. I think now it’s just the New York State, um, Confirmation of Birth? Rather than using, [laughs] the original birth certificate, which somehow got lost in the, you know, the shuffle for all these years. So that was, you know, that was the beginning, and, uh, the other interesting part about being born in Brooklyn at that time was that that was after, um, the developer Robert Moses had started, you know, the trend of the big Projects? And, uh, the multi-story, very tall Projects that people lived in, and they were actually very good housing and sought after housing. So, uh, I– I lived in a Project, but it was not how you envision it today, uh. It, uh, it was really a very nice place to live. And, um, I lived there, according to what I can remember? Uh, for five years. Uh, and from there, there was a period of time where there was a circuit that people made when they were leaving the city.
[00:03:02]
Circuit that I took was– I was then– I moved from Brooklyn to Long Island. Out in Long Island, not the– the near part. Nassau, Suffolk County, which was, um, very rural at the time, and, uh, it was– it was– it was an interesting, uh, period of time. Um. There were a lot of, um, good memories, of course, of growing up, and then there was some, um, interesting memories growing up. And one of the– one of the, um, interesting parts of growing up there, and again, I had introduced the fact that in the ‘50s in the North, people did not understand that there was segregation. And that there was, uh, uh, subtle racism that existed just like parts of the South. So, when I was enrolled in school, again, my records were incorrect, which I only learned afterwards. So, uh, when I entered elementary school, it never occurred to me that, uh, the only faces I saw were Caucasian faces. It just, you know. My mind just didn’t understand what that meant until! Uh, one day! In the fifth grade. I was walking down the hallway in, you know, the– they keep us single file and you walk down the hallway to get from point A to point B. And I saw, walking towards me, single file, in the other opposite direction, this group of maybe– I don’t know, maybe ten or twelve. They were Black kids! And I remember staring at them, it was literally, I’m staring at them as they’re walking towards me, and every pair of their eyes are staring at me. Because the– the one thing that Black people do well that a lot of white people don’t understand? See, we recognize each other no matter what the color of our skin is, and so, [laughs] they were staring at me, saying, “Who is that? We’ve never seen her. Why is she with them?” And I’m staring at them saying, “Where have you been! Who are you? Where are you in the school? How come I’ve never seen you!” Literally, as they’re passing by, and this is one of those impressions that will never leave me. I’m watching them and they’re watching me as literally, we’re, like, ships passing in the nights. And, uh, that was my first understanding that, um, that, you know, that– that I was enrolled in a segregated school! Segregated, just like the South, but I was on the wrong side of the equatio– oh, ‘cause I should mention that my last name was Zapata. Z-A-P-A-T-A. And they had listed me as “Antionette” instead of “Toni” so they had listed me in my school records as “Antionette Zapata.” So I don’t know what nationality they thought I was, but they definitely didn’t think I was, uh, a, you know, a Black person of– of Black heritage in– in the United States.
[00:06:25]
So that’s, you know. That’s the reason it was, uh– uh, no one just ever asked, they just assumed. That was a– a pretty interesting period of time for me and I– and I never had an opportunity to do anything with it! Because I never saw the children again. Obviously was– we weren’t supposed to have been in the hallway at the same time? Never laid eyes on them again, ever. Finished out the rest of my primary schooling, uh, in that same district. Never laid eyes on them again. And at that time, there, housing wasn’t close together where we lived in Suffolk County? So it wasn’t an environment where you could see a lot of people. Uh, and um, uh, well, we didn’t have a car and it was– it was just a very different environment, so people say, “How, how, how was that allowed to happen?” I say, “It was like living in the country! For all intents and purposes.” I mean, if they’re, you know, didn’t have a telephone. We didn’t have a car. Uh, you walked where you had to go. The– the school bus came and got you and it took you to school and brought you back home. So there wasn’t a– an environment that was available for me to learn about the community. Um, I guess maybe that had a larger role in my development and who I became later on in life than I understood, uh, so that was a– the interesting part, and then the other interesting thing that happened during that period of time is that, that was the first time that I was introduced to death, and uh– uh, I was living with my older sisters’ grandparents, who at the time I thought were my grandparents. And, uh, there was this program called Lawrence Welk. Lawrence Welk, uh, was a program that all the old people watched. You know, he did the polka and he had a big band and he had singers and what not. And he came on every week. And this particular week that it was on, uh, my grandmother said, “Come on Toni,” you know, “let’s,” you know, “let’s, let’s dance!” And I said, “Oh, I don’t want to dance!” You know, I was– I was 12 years old and I didn’t want to dance polka! And, um, my older sister did and then my grandmother went into the bathroom and died! [pause]
[00:09:05]
[voice breaks] And because of where we lived, she laid there. [strained] For I don’t know how many hours. Waiting for the coroner, and. [sob] The guilt has you– you can hear in my voice today. Will never leave me. I didn’t dance with her. She probably knew that something was really wrong, and all she wanted to do was dance. [deep breath] And to this day, I try hard to stop when somebody says, “Can you do, come on, just do this with me.” I’m not perfect at it, but I try so hard to stop and take that moment, because once it’s gone? [inhale] That was fifty-seven years ago, and I can still feel like it was yesterday. So! That was my early journey, which was punctuated by my sister’s father then coming to get us. I– I had no memory of him at all, and then all of a sudden, you know, I was living in this new location with, uh, who I was told was my father, and a strange woman, and they had children, and, uh, the– the lady was white. So, I thought I had these, you know, these brothers. And, um, that was, uh, it wasn’t long until my older sister ran away from that home, and she found our natural mother, because what I didn’t say, uh, earlier, is that, uh, when I was a toddler, and I don’t know, might have been two years old or younger, the courts took my sister and I away from my mother. [pause] I had no– I had no memory of her! And then, here I was, 12 going on 13, [sniff] going to live in this new area, and it was, um, Westchester County, [sniff], New York. Peekskill, New York. And, uh, I need to take a moment.
[00:11:55]
END OF RECORDING TWO
__________
RECORDING THREE
[00:00:00]
Okay! Okay, so that was my introduction to yet another, uh, part of New York, which, West Chester County, uh, a town called Peekskill. Um, which is about forty minutes or so north of New York City. So, um, and at the same time, I had completed my primary school education and was going into, at the time, we called it Junior High. So, here I am in Peekskill, New York, and, wow! Was it different! Because, I had mentioned to you earlier that Black people know each other? Well, I hit Junior High as the new girl in town and it was a fully integrated school. And the guys were like, [growls] [laughs]! I was like, “What does, what’s going on!” I said, you know, I wasn’t– it wasn’t off putting, but I had no ability to deal with it, because, you know, I had no social life! Uh, all through primary school! So it was like, wow! This is very, very different! Why are all these boys trying to talk to me! Well, you know, you’re the new girl in town and– and they wanted to be the first boy to, you know, date the new girl and what not, so it was– it was, in addition to coming to live with a mother who you had no recollection of, who now had, uh, now you knew at that point that there was six children, and one more on the way. So now here I am in this larger family structure, and I thought I only had one older sister! So, um, all of this was happening all at once. Uh, in a very, very dramatic way. So I had this older brother, Roger. Uh, who kind of like, took me under his wing. I was a little bit of a tomboy, so he let me hang out with him and he took me to the local canteen and we’d play pingpong and things of that nature and, uh, so it slowed down the boys a little bit, ‘cause Roger was a football player, and he was, uh, you didn’t mess with Roger, and he was older than the kids that, you know, he’s five years older than me so it was like, “ugh, she’s with her brother again.” So, that was an interesting period of time because now I went from a she– ah, what I consider a sheltered, segregated life to now being, you know, inserted into a, a very integrated environment with the recognition that there’s this whole part of me, being a Black American, that I hadn’t really had the opportunity to understand or live as.
[00:03:09]
I just lived as “Toni” up to that point. I can’t say as I identified as any way at all. I was just “Toni.” Period. With really not having a– a ethnic, um, familial grounding or understanding. So that– that was, you know, that was, um, that was an important step for me. And then there are other things occurred at that point that I will not talk about. Um, I don’t talk about them to anybody. That, um, uh, but I will say that not long after arriving at my mother’s house, she announced to me that the gentleman who I thought was my father was not my father. So I’m like, “I didn’t know you were my mother! And now you’re telling me that this man, the only man I knew of as a family member was not my father? So who am I, really?” And she gave me a name of a, of an individual, and, um, she said it had been her, you know, her childhood sweetheart, and that, um, you know, he was my father, and, [glass clinks] okay. Uh, so, to this day, really, my connection to, uh, a mother and father are, you know, they’re, it’s just, [glasses clink] it’s just not there. Um. And, um, no dispersions on my mother at all, but, you know, she, she had seven children with five different fathers, so, um, and again, no dispersions on her at all, but, it’s like, there’s no connection if you will in terms of who I am beyond being Toni. I’ve never met grandparents on either side because at that point, my mother who I know is my mother because I look just like her, and the birth certificate, um, her, her parents were already, had already passed away, so. And I, because I don’t know my father, there’s– I have no– So, literally, it’s my mother, and, uh, and, you know, that’s okay! You know, I can say that now, it’s okay. Alright, so where am I? Um, so now I’m in– oh, yeah! So now it starts to get fun, because, uh, one of the things that I didn’t mention is that, when I was in primary school, um, maybe because I was so isolated, you know. I was a good student. I was a really good student. I was kinda smart, kinda nerdy, and I took a real strong interest in, I guess the term now is “political science”. And, uh, while I was never– I think other people knew that I wasn’t white, so I was never, uh, the person who was put forward as, you know, the head of anything. But a lot of people wanted me on their team, and we used to do elections. So we had these school elections, even in primary school, where we would run them like they were a real election, I mean with campaigns and, and slogans and candidates speeches and anything like that. And I would run those, I would run those campaigns for candidates.
[00:06:26]
And I loved it! And I was really good. And my candidates won! [laughs] Then we had the fireball candies, you know, these little, they, you know what a fireball is, right? And so I’d get a whole basket of the fireball candies and walk through the hall, “Vote for so and so!” And give them a fireball. Say, “Oh, who was that again? Who am I voting for?” [laughs] So I– I guess, um, very early on, uh, you know, I started that connection to politics and civics and civic engagement and that– that really stuck with me because, when my brother was drafted right out of high school, uh, to Vietnam, right, I mean, immediately after high school. I became very, um, engaged in the, I wouldn’t call it anti-war? Um, but I would call it “bring our boys back home”? So I, I never considered it being, you know, against the government? It was more like, “This is an 18 year old kid, and there’s a lot of–” because that’s what the draft did. And, um, one minute they’re in high school, you know, playing football, being a dumb kid, and the next minute, you know, they complete their eight– eight weeks of basic, four weeks of advanced infan– infantry training, and then they’re in Vietnam. And, um, and it was– it was not good in– in the communities where parents couldn’t afford to send their kids to college or to send them away. Uh, which is what you did if you had the ability to do that then, to try to save your son’s life! Uh, or his sanity, and not have him exposed, you know, to that, uh, that period of time. Well, those of us that were in the, you know, the lower middle, middle class to lower income range, I mean, there was no place for these guys to go! So off they went! They were immediately on the front lines. I met a gentleman, not to get off track, but it’s re– related to this. Yesterday at the polls, and, um, it turns out he was the same age as my brother, and he was drafted at the same exact time, but he– he was never even taken out of the United States! White gentleman. Because he said he didn’t have any training but, you know, he kinda liked to do things mechanical, so they put him in the, you know, the– some mechanical group in the local, um, fort.
[00:08:58]
And see that, that’s what happened then, you know? That was a, another introduction to the unfairness of who you are in the United States. At that time, you know, it has changed now that it’s a volunteer army? You don’t see such disparity between white and Black faces now in the military. Now you see a lot of white guys, uh, because it’s a completely different military. But back then? Uh, the– it was– because they– they drafted these kids and there was no way for them to get out of it.
So I started a letter writing campaign! [laughs] That was me, Ms. Political! And, um, Robert Kennedy, um, was my target. He was the, um, attorney general. Or had he become the senator of New York at that point in time? I’d have to go back and refresh my memory, where he was, uh, during the early 60s and what point he– he became the attorney gen– he was the attorney gen– oh, so that would have been– no, so he was in New York by then. Okay, I’m– I’m clear. So I– I should have kept those letters and appealing, you know, this is, um. My brother had already been wounded with shrapnel and, you know, he was technically the head of household ‘cause there was no father at home. And, um, yeah, it didn’t do any good! So. Uh, he eventually came home, and, uh, he was never the same, um. [pause] [voice breaking] And I lost him a couple of years ago but he was never the same. Mentally. [swallows] [pause] He, you know, he was, um. [voice breaks] He was one of those who came home, like those war movies you see where the guys are, like, mentally unstable. [pause] [voice breaks] That’s ‘cause he saw things he shouldn’t [voice breaks] have seen. [sob] So anyhow! Where am I? [pause] Ah. So then when he came home, I said, “I’m keeping going with,” you know, “trying to make a change with the– through my civic engagement,” and I started to get involved in, uh, campaigns again. [sniff] And I would do phone banking. And uh, uh, so I would get on the phones for a local candidate and, you know, make the phone calls. And, uh, then I graduated from that to door knocking, to get, uh, signatures on petitions and for different candidates and– and in New York at the time, I don’t know if it’s still the same way, if you wanted to be a delegate to like, the Democratic National Convention or the Republican National Convention, the delegates, they were aligned with their party? But they also had to get enough signatures to send them as a delegate, unless they were a civic delegate to the candidate.
[00:11:58]
So, I had a couple of friends who wanted to be delegates, and they said, you know, would I help them with their candidates? And I would go knocking on doors and get signatures and things of that nature. So, uh, I guess, again, uh, I’ve always had an interest in civic engagement, trying to things to, uh, to change. So I don’t know where I am, Dan, in this conversation, you’re gonna have to channel me a little bit at this point.
Uh, so, what I wanted to ask was, um, if you, in terms of your civic engagement, um, what was happening in Westchester County in ‘67?
Mhm hmm. Well, it– it was. [sigh] I’m trying to get the timeline strai– that was before the, you know, the riots. That was in the ‘70s. So, in the six, in the ‘67. During that period of time, it really was the war, and it really was about the draft and, um, primarily that was the focus if you will. We didn’t– I didn’t experience the Civil Rights, um, marching and things of that nature that occurred in some other areas at that time. That came later, about, in the next decade when it– it hit that area. Uh, but during the Civil Rights era where, you know, glued to the T.V. And, um, you know, knowing where I was when President Kennedy was assassinated and, uh, the school program afterwards where I was asked to, um, read the poem, “Oh Captain, My Captain.” Um, ‘cause my teacher– I had– I was blessed. I had teachers that really, I guess that was, that was earlier. Yeah, that was ‘63. I had teachers that always, um, I had at least one teacher that was always, took a liking to Toni. So, Raymond Demayon, I’ll never forget him. He, um, he– he made sure that he had me on the program, and I– I did that. So I– but that was ‘63. Okay, so then, now, then came up to Martin Luther King. Now, that was the ‘69? ‘68? My memory is a little foggy. That was, um, we didn’t have where I lived any of the rioting that occurred as a result of Martin Luther King’s assassination. We were all keenly and painfully aware of it. And, um, I remember my husband told me that his company let them go. ‘Cause my husband was a little older than I am. Uh, so at the time he was, uh, an old, you know, still older than I. And he had started working, and his company let them, you know, leave earlier. But from my specific, um, point of view, it was staying engaged and understanding what was going on, but I was not yet participating.
[00:15:08]
In that specifically. And then, Robert Kennedy passed away, of course. But right around, um, the beginning of the ‘70s, I think you might recall, there was some really, really horrific, um, rioting that occurred in a lot of cities in both– in New York and right here in, like, Newark and New Jersey. Well, we were part of that, even being this little sleepy Westchester town that, um, the police department, um, [pause]. Well, let’s just say this. There was this young man named Wayne Buffalo, and uh, there was this [tsk] [pause] I hate using the term “riot” because it was not appropriate. Uh, there was this confrontation between, um, these white patrons at a bar and Wayne and a couple of his friends, and of course that meant that was, since it was at a bar, there was probably too much alcohol. And it– it– it escalated into a physical confrontation, and Wayne was– was killed. So riots did break out. Um, in my, in, you know, everywhere else but even in the– the town that I was living in. And, um, we were under curfew, and we had a– these guys that ran at the time, I guess you would call them a head shop? They were legal, though, where you sell incense and puka beads and, you know. They were the cool guys in town. Well, you know, the police came, and, like, trashed their business and shut them down, and then people took to the streets and started marching on the police station, and, yeah, it– it was a mess. What we found out afterwards though, is that they– they– they arrested a couple of these gentlemen I was talking about who were these cool guys, you know, with the puka beads and the whatnot. They might have even been smoking marijuana, which was totally illegal, but they weren’t hardcore criminals. They were like the cool guys, if you will. And, um, the– the– they were accused of shooting into the police station. And they were arrested, put on trial, sent to jail. And, about five or six years after their incarceration, they found out that the– the police officer who was the primary witness against them was nowhere near the police station at the time. Uh, so they had completely falsified the charges, and, uh, which was not anything out of the ordinary then.
[00:18:01]
And, you know, sent to jail, incarcerated. So, when that came out, of course people were in the street again, so, um, it was more in that part of the state, it was more the ‘70s? Then it was the full out Civil Rights Movement being led by Martin Luther King and others. Um, in the Southern states. And then the Civil Rights effort focused a lot at that time, as you may recall, in Chicago. Uh, as– as far as the Northern, uh, states were concerned, but they really– my– I have no recollection of Martin Luther King leading any specific type of– of protest in New York. I just don’t have any recollection of that. Um. We weren’t– that wasn’t on their– their radar screen at the time. Uh, but we had our own version of it. But, again, primarily, it happened more in the ‘70s. And there was the Blackouts and things of that nature, and it was just– it was just a– a very wild period of time in– in cities and larger urban areas, uh– uh– then, uh, I remember driving in New York and, you know, the– the gutted-out cars along the side of the street and garbage everywhere and, whew! Boy have we come a long way! [laughs] That was a– that was a very interesting period of time! So, um, that’s an answer directly, you know, to– to what you were asking. [pause]
You mentioned your– your husband, you met in–
Yeah.
Easton?
Yeah, I did! Um, uh, always brings a smile to my face. And, uh– uh, so, um, okay, so my husband was older than I, and he will tell you this: he would tell you this if he were here today to speak with you. That, uh, there was this point in time where, um, my mother’s beau, uh, father of my two younger brothers, he did not live with us. But he would come and visit, and then he would have to get a cab back to the train station to go to Tarrytown, New York, which is where he worked and where he lived. And, my husband had– was just getting divorced from his– from his first wife, and he was moonlighting driving taxi. And this is his story! But he told it so many times, uh, you know, and I know that these things happen! He would see me walk my mother’s beau to the door of the house because you had those old fashioned latches that you had to do manually to unlock and lock the door? So my job was to make sure the house was locked up after he left to go, uh, to get into the taxi. And my husband tells the story how he started watching me right then and there, and I guess, you know, I must have been 15, 16 or something along those lines. And then, um, as time went by, uh, and I grew up, and I had an apartment that was on the same street as the, uh, the cab stand. And when he wasn’t driving, he would dispatch, and the dispatcher sat in the window of the– of the building, and he would watch me walking by, and one day he made the mistake of saying to me, “We should have dinner sometime.” And, uh, so, I didn’t wait too long, and I came and invited him out to dinner!
[00:21:51]
And he got flustered. He was like! [noises] [laughs] I said, “All I did was invite you to dinner! You said you wanted to go to dinner, I invited you to dinner!” And, you know, that was the beginning! And, um, I knew my– I was, uh, just about 20, 21– I was turning 21 at that time. And, uh, it took me six and a half years, but on Sadie Hawkins Day, in 1980, I was not gonna wait any longer for this man. I got down on one knee with a rose and asked him to marry me! [laughs] Because, I said, “I’ve had it! We’re either gonna get married, or I’m gonna move on!” And, uh, we were married! That Sadie Hawkins Day was February 29th of 1980. November 1st of 1980, we were married! [laughs] So, yeah, I’m one of those liberated women that actually asked my husband to marry me. Because he, by his own admission he was– he was– he was afraid, you know? He had had– he did not have a– a good first marriage. And I was, um, a good girl. And, um, I was already well, you know, on my way. I was a working professional and, um, he said, “I was scared of you!” He said, “I just didn’t,” he says, “I just didn’t know how to handle it!” So I had to take matters out of his hands! And that’s how I have my, my two wonderful stepchildren. Um, we have a son, Anthony. He lives in, um, in Florida. My daughter, Lanna, she lives right here in South Brunswick, and then from them, three wonderful grandchildren. Matthew, Taylor, and Sydney, and to them, I’m Nana. And there’s no doubt about it, I am there grandmother, so. Uh, it was good! Um, it’s [voice breaks] hard losing him! 2019! April 25th, which happened to have been my mother’s birthday, but she’s been long gone, since the ‘80s. Um. Yeah! Um. Was, was, uh. It, you know.
[00:24:01]
Perfect, and not to be misunderstood as never having any, you know, wrinkles in a marriage, but it was a perfect marriage. It was, it really was. We were made for each other, and everyone said it, not just us, so, yeah, I miss him every day! He was also an officer in the NAACP. He also, very civically engaged and involved in many, many community organizations. Very smart man. He held the patent for developing the process of freezing rice and rehydrating it in frozen food products, so whenever you eat a frozen dinner that has rice in? That’s because my husband developed and perfected that process. He didn’t personally hold the patent because he was working for General Foods, but he got the Chairman’s Award and, you know, his name is on the plaque and everything and, uh, you know. Very smart guy! But, like you, Dan, a very humble guy who would never, you’d never know it. He didn’t wear it on his sleeve. Yeah, so that was my beau, Allen F. Hendrix. So thank you for asking me about him, yes. [pause] So where are we now in this discussion? ‘Cause you know, you, you know, Dan, I can, I can go on and on and not be focused, so I appreciate any, uh, focus that you can provide to my ramblings.
No problem. Um, I guess before we move forward, uh, when we’ve spoken in the past, you’ve mentioned being raised by the community?
Oh, yeah!
Do you wanna elaborate on anything?
Oh my gosh. Yeah, well, I think earlier in this discussion, you know, I talked about being disconnected from a traditional family and being disconnected from who I was in terms of my ancestral ethnic, ethnicity, you know, all of that, you know, what goes into who a person is culturally, and I was just Toni. And that could have been– You know, I, only God knows at what point in my life, when I got the road, I took the– the right fork if you will? Because I could have taken a different fork and you and I would not be speaking today! And I think I took the right fork because of the people who recognized something in me. [pause] [voice breaks] And cared for me. And looked out for me. I mention my teacher Raymond Demayon. You know, starting as earlier as that, you know, in– in primary school. And this gentleman for some reason, he felt connected to me. He introduced me to his wife, you know, she, when she came to the school, there was nothing, um, out of the ordinary. But he made it clear, um, that my welfare was something he was concerned with, so, I always felt as though he gave me opportunities to do things, and he gave me opportunities to shine.
[00:27:17]
Uh, and I always, um, will be thankful for that. Then, there were other– there were some not good experiences with some teachers. And, um, I mentioned to you that I was good at– at school, so, um, I was actually put into honors classes when I went into, um, junior high school. And one of those classes I came across a gentleman who made his feelings clear about Black people. [sniff] And that he didn’t think I should be in an honors class and he told me that in very, uh, specific terms. But fortunately, there were other people that, um, didn’t do that, and went out of their way to support me, so, uh, I only completed formal education classroom instruction education through the 9th grade. And, uh, that’s because I had to go to work, so, uh, when I was in school, and I mentioned several times that I was a decent student, there was this point where, you know, I was turning, I was going to turn 16, and I was not going to school, and it wasn’t because I was a truant or anything of that nature. I was– I was out doing work for my family. And, uh, this couple, Arlene and Melvin Tapley, uh, who lived in Peekskill, and Mr. Tapley, he was either one of the publishers or one of the editors of the Amsterdam News at the time. Um, but in particular, his wife, Arlene, they became aware of me and they went to the school on my behalf and said, uh, “You’ve gotta reach out to Mrs. Zapata,” my mother, “and convince her to let this child stay in school!” Um. “She should not be allowed to drop out of school because we have in our– our eye on her, and through their resources, through the Amsterdam News and other resources,” which, you know, I didn’t know about at the time, they were gonna help me get into Howard University. Uh, ‘cause I– I thought that back then that I wanted to pursue a career in law enforcement. I don’t know why. Um. But I wanted to do it all! I wanted to be a, both a detective and law enforcement. Then I wanted to progress it to the legal aspect. I wanted, you know, the whole thing. Uh, and so, they went to the school and, uh, Mia didn’t work.
[00:30:01]
You know, my mother, first of all, she didn’t really communicate with the school and she really didn’t have any interest in, uh, in our education. It was more the interest in maintaining the household. Uh, so, I did not go to school for the first 69 days of my 10th grade, because I wasn’t quite 16, and you weren’t allowed to drop out of school, but for all intents and purposes, when you miss 69 days of school in one academic year, you haven’t been to school. So that’s why I always say, my last grade of school was 9th grade. Then, when I turned 16, went down to the telephone company, and, uh, with my then-to-be sister-in-law and my sister, and applied for a position with the– with the telephone company. You know, you had to take this test and all this stuff like that. I flew through all of that, and then, um, I met Millie McCoy. Millie McCoy was the, uh, person who was responsible now for the, you know, transitioning you [shuffling] to your role at the telephone company. And she looked at my paperwork and she said, “This can’t, this can’t be right.” She said, “Are you 16?” And I said, “Yep! I’m now 16.” Um. And she said, “But you’re– you should be in school!” I said, “Well, I dropped out of school.” She said– she said, “Toni,” she said, “you should go back to school, because you’ll never be anything other than a– than an operator.” I know in her heart Millie was trying to help me. And I also knew in my heart that Millie really helped me, because when she told me– and these words are still something. Never tell me you will never be anything more than, ‘cause as soon as you say that, I will be exactly more than what you told me I won’t be! And, um, within six months of being hired, I was a junior supervisor. And the rest was that. By the time I retired from AT&T, I was a Division Manager. So, um, I don’t like it when people tell me, “You will never be anything more than!” Ah, and maybe that was my background. I don’t know what it was, but, or continues to be, but don’t tell me that! Unless you really want me to be something more, then tell me that, you’ll motivate me! But then, uh, in the company, when people realized, again, this is the community. Community is, you know, can be very small or could be very large. I had some managers that were like, uh, you know, “We, we want to promote you, but you don’t have an education!” So I said, “Well, what do I do?” So my first step way, go get my GED. And I just came across my papers the other day. Just came across’m. Um. So I went and got my GED. [buzzing in background] And then, got that promotion and then, ‘nother manager had his eye on me, he said, “Listen, I wanna promote you, but–” at this level, now, this was then, you know, now I’m like, rising through the ranks and now we’re getting serious.
[00:33:04]
He said, “but, you have to have college.” I said, “Well, you’re telling me this now?” At that point I was– I was already married at that point. So, which means I was probably, like, I hadn’t just married. I was probably, like, 30. And that doesn’t sound like a big deal except I had started work when I was 16, so I’ve been at this a while and I’ve proven who I am for a while. But they need that degree. So he said, “Here’s what I want you to do.” He said, “Go to your local community college and enroll.” I said, “You’re kidding me, right?” He says, “No. Bring me the paperwork that you’re enrolled in community college.” I enrolled in community college. They promoted me. It’s all a game. It’s all a game. But ask me what mark I got in that one– I took English Comp? Yeah, English Composition. It was the one course I took in community college. Ask me how I did. Go on, Dan! Ask me how I did. Okay! Okay. I got! [laughs] A perfect score on my final! And I got a four, whatever, dot, for the course. Uh, because I don’t like it when people, um, can’t do it. I have to do something. So that’s the, and then, um, people continued. I was very blessed as, as I continued, uh, what I really started to progress in my career, then I was given the opportunity to work overseas. And that’s– that’s a– that’s a pretty big deal in corporate America, when you’re selected to represent a company overseas and, um, and then they sent me for executive education in some colleges and whatnot. So, um, none of that could have or should have happened. It was because others outside of my family, the community, uh, was there for me. And I believe that that is a big ingredient in a person’s life. And, you know, now you’re helping me understand why I do all these things, Dan! This is– this is really an interesting exercise. Because it’s– it’s, a lot of that is who I have become later in life. Um. [pause] Very interest– You sure you don’t have a degree in psychology? [laughs] Oh, that’s interesting! Because now, for, like, the last fifteen or twenty years, I, um, I have provided coaching and mentoring to, particularly women, um, in their careers, uh, whether they’re entrepreneurs or they are trying to advance in– in their, you know, in their companies.
[00:36:04]
Uh, if I become attached to an individual, I spend a lot of time coaching and mentoring them and, and helping them in their journey. And, uh, I always knew it was because I started at a time when it was difficult for a woman, and a Black woman at that, and a Black woman without an education, to make it, if you will. I always attribute it to that, but, now I’m seeing it’s because there were enough of those– I always respected the people who helped me along the way. And now I’m realizing that it’s also that need to say, “Someone did it for you. You need to do it.” And I tell my mentees, they say, “well, this is so valuable! You won’t let us give you any money!” And I say, “Nope! But you owe me one thing. Pass it along! You have to do this for someone else. [voice breaks] That’s all I want. Reach down and give a hand to someone else who needs it. Because we all do.” [sniff] [sigh] And I– I apologize if I’m forgetting some of the rest of you along the way in my life who’ve been there for me, but, um, oh, I do have to, I don’t remember the lady’s name, but.
When I mention to you that I was considered a truant because of the amount of time I wasn’t in school and they would always send a truant officer out looking for you. That landed me in the crosshairs of being, you know, branded a– a– a juvenile delinquent, that should be, you know, placed in a home, whatever they did with you back in those days. But all of a sudden now, I’m at risk. And, um, I had to go before a family court judge because remember, I had been removed from my mother’s house before. And, uh, I guess they were thinking about removing me again. And, uh, I was assigned a caseworker. It was a woman. Uh, I just don’t remember her name. I wish I did. And she, wow. [pause] [voice breaks] She went to bat for me! Said, “This girl does not belong in,” you know, “you can’t put her in a, in a group home! You can’t. You just can’t.” [tsk] Yeah. How could I forget that? [sniff] Dag-gone it. [pause] So, um, I was not placed in a group home. I had to, you know, go through therapy and my mother had to do this and that and the other. I don’t even know what it was with her. Um. But I was not put into a group home, ‘cause I was now raptly approaching 16, and at the time, 16, you could, um, it’s not that you were a full adult, but back then, when you were 16, they really left you alone.
[00:39:11]
You could leave school and all that other stuff like that, so, the truancy wouldn’t have mattered anymore. But she kept me out of the system! And, uh, that was one of the forks. So again, a member of the community who just took the time to understand the person and not just looked at the surface answers. And that’s why I’m a Casa today. Because of that journey. [voice breaks] And I do know that. I do know that that’s why I’m– I’m a CASA, because I understand what the children go through. Um. So that was another point where the community reached out and helped me. [pause] Okay. [shuffling] [inhale] Do you know what a CASA is? A CASA stands for Court Appointed Special Advocate for Children in Foster Care. And we are a volunteer organization– well, CASA advocates are volunteers. There are– there are paid positions, but a CASA advocate’s responsibility is to work directly with, and on behalf of the child, and representing them during the process from the point they’re removed from their home to the point that there’s a disposition regarding their future, whether it’s being returned to their family home or to being– aging out because they’re older, or to be, um, adopted. But, uh, you would, you stay with the child through that entire journey, and there’s some children that have had their CASA advocates for six or seven years. Um, I’m rather new at it. Uh, I have three direct children, uh, that I advocate on behalf of, so we write court reports, we have to visit the children, we have to– we have to ensure that their education is being cared for, that their medicals– now, DCCP, they have the primary role in doing that, but we’re the ones that make sure it happens, and we’re the ones that write in our court report what our recommendations are or how the children are doing and, um, and we are part of the court proceeding. Uh, so I’m advocating directly on the part of three children, and then recently I became a– an advocate coach, so I have two other advocates that have cases. And I was just asked to take on another case, so, uh, that is something that, um, you know, I just have to do, you know? I, I just have to, uh, because I was, you know, I was taken away from my mother for, you know, when I was an infant!
[00:42:00]
And as a matter of fact, one of my CASA’s cases now is, she– she has a six month old that was, uh, that had to be removed, um, from her family structure. So, uh, that is a, again, something that I– I have to do because I had somebody advocate for me. It wasn’t a CASA, it was whoever the case worker was. It doesn't matter. I had somebody advocate for me that kept me out of the system and, uh, again, was one of those forks in the road where it could have gone the other way. I could have wound up in the system. Who knows if I’d be alive today or where I would be today. But I wouldn’t necessarily be me. So, that’s, uh, that’s one of the other things that, uh, I– I enjoy is not the right word? But I have to do it. And I don’t see it as a task. I see it as something that, uh, I welcomed, and I’ll do it for as long as I can. [sigh] This is hard work! 69 years is like, a lot of years to, you know, like, focus on! [sniff] What you’re doing. [pause]
Do you know, um, why you were removed from your home and your mother?
[sigh] [pause] [voice breaks] I can’t. [pause] [crying] There are parts of me I will [voice breaks] probably never talk about. So, I’m sorry, I can’t. [pause] Just, it almost, well, it didn’t almost, it started again during that short period of time when I was returned to her. I can’t– I can’t talk about it. [tissue rustling] [cries] I should say I don’t– I won’t talk about it. ‘Cause it’s not gonna do any good. And, uh, six years of therapy helped me understand that it won’t do any good, so I don’t talk about it. I don’t even talk about it with my– with my family. My kids don’t know. My grandkids don’t know. My husband didn’t know. So, I’m sorry Dan. The public won’t know. I will protect my mother in that way. [pause] [rustling] My choice. [sigh] [pause] I lost my mother in 1982. She was 58 years old. Uh, I lost my, her brothers and sisters, their siblings, only one made it to 60.
[00:45:04]
I have now lost five of my brothers and sisters. It’s down to me and one other brother. I just lost my youngest brother in August. I don’t know why that came out, but, uh, anyhow, I guess it came out because I’m now the matriarch of two families and I’m only 69 years old. That’s amazing. But, I guess back in the day, it was a blessing to make it to 69, right? [chuckles] So, by those terms, yes. Uh, and I just, uh, I just never, um, I’m– I’ve never been the type of person that, uh, talked about people, uh, except in a positive way. And certainly not when they’re gone and they can’t, uh, they can’t contribute to the conversation, so. And I learned through a therapist that my mother was incapable of continue– of contributing to the conversation even when she was alive, so, now I’m done. That’s it. That’s it! And I’ve already paid for my, uh, my, where my husband I will be interned, so my kids don’t have to worry about finding people and things of that nature, got that all, said, “You know what you need to know, and you don’t need to know anything else than that, and let’s move on, so we’re gonna move on past that question!” Which was an appropriate question, but unfortunately I can’t answer.
I– I did wanna ask, uh, a lot of our– our work in terms of collecting these stories is understanding, uh, the community you chose here–
Ah, yes!
[inaudible, overlapping] What brought you here?
Oh, my gosh! So, yeah, let’s, let’s move on. Uh, so, when, um, my husband and I were, um, getting serious, before I asked him to get married, um, his company relocated him from Tarrytown, New York, to just outside of, um, Hightstown or, um, in 1979. And he bought a place, a little place in Lakewood. So, when we first got married, uh, I came to live in Lakewood. That was 1980. But I was working in Manhattan and that commute was just a killer. So, we– we quickly left, and I mean quickly, literally February the next year. We were in, um, East Windsor. And, at that point, my husband’s job was six miles away. And I can jump, and the bus jumped right on the turnpike and got me into New York much more comfortable. So, when we got into New Jersey, for the first, I don’t know, like ten years or so, I really wasn’t able to engage in the community very well because I continued to work in New York.
[00:48:16]
And, um, and I had a– a– a pretty full job that, um, just kept me running. At one point I was managing a– a tri-state area, so, I remember at one point, neighbors said to my husband, “I don’t think you’re married!” [laughs] And so one beautiful afternoon, my husband drives me outside, he says, “Neil! Here she is! I told you! This is my wife!” [laughs] What are you doing, Al? He says, “He doesn’t think I’m married!” So– so for the first ten years, I really didn’t get a chance to get into New Jersey? Where my husband did. And, uh, he became very active in, uh, oh, he was always active in masonry. But that’s when he first became very active in, like, the NAACP and some other organizations. And, um, so fast forward a little bit and, oof, well. And in between, I end up living, you know, working and living part time overseas, so, it was a chunk of time. New Jersey was like a mystery to me. I knew New Brunswick, though, almost immediately because, uh, if you, living where we did in East Windsor, it was Exit 8 on the, you know, how we do in New Brunswick. Exit 8 on the Turnpike. And all I had to do was jump up and get off at Exit 9. So, you know, Allen and I being from New York and a little bit more used to a– at that point, we were a little bit more used to a– a city environment because I was working in Manhattan and what not. We found, New– New– New Brunswick, like, right away. We found Princeton, different vibe, but we found New Brunswick right away. Frog and the Peach was already right there. Fontana’s, uh, do you remember Fontana’s? Oh, my gosh! So, there’s a– a chicken, uh, pla– Wings Something, you know the corner of, um, right across from the Train Station? What’s that wing, that chicken wing place?
Rooster Spin?
Rooster Spin! Rooster Spin used to be Fontana’s Restaurant. Fontana’s Restaurant was an Italian restaurant. Fontana’s Restaurant had that old world, all the waiters were men, you know, they wore the black suits, and they knew their food, and it was just the most wonderful, but, um, I don’t know if I’m allowed to say this, but it was kind of mobbed up! [laughs] And it, you know, and it was, you know, you’d come in and you’d see the table in the corner and, you knew there was some– not necessarily illegal, that’s not what I’m saying, but, um, it was very well supported by the Italian community. So the food was excellent! I mean, they’d bring this big wheel with, you know, big wheel of parmesan, I guess it was parmesan cheese over to the table and slice it off for you, and it was like, Fontana’s restaurant, that was– that was quite a place. Um, and, uh.
[00:51:05]
So we would come, obviously, since I’ve only talked about restaurants! [laughs] We would come for the restaurants, but also, we would come because of Crossroads Theatre. And at the time, uh, and again, you know, I don’t know, um, how far back your memory of New Brunswick is. But Route 18 at the time was very different than it is now. The police station was where the Boyd Park, for all intents and purposes, in that area, and then, I forgot which– which hurricane came and they were just flooded out terribly. Well, Crossroads was right across the street where those apartments are now. And, it was a rickety old building. You know, you walked up the stairs and everything, but Crossroads Theatre was, um, the Black Community was very, very proud of Crossroads Theater because it was serious! Serious entertainment. They were serious producers. They put on serious plays, and they were, I– I think Ricardo Khan, I never met him back then, you know. I– I didn’t know enough about New Jersey to know that there was this jewel called Ricardo Khan who was one of the founders of Crossroads Theater. I just knew it was this great theatre, ‘cause coming from New York, I used to go to the theatre all the time. So, you know, that was another big piece of New Brunswick for us. Uh, and then there were, um, the churches, and Ebenezer Church– I’m Baptist, my husband, uh, was Methodist, AME. Ebenezer Church at the– at the Baptist church, which is still operating today, was a big forceful Baptist Church. Uh, more forceful than they are now. They’ve had some, some challenges, um, with, um, getting younger people in and pastor turnover and whatnot. So Ebenezer Church was a very important Baptist Church in the area, uh. So, had that, had that linkage. And then, our son wanted to be a barber. So he went to barber school, Wilford Academy in, part of the time in Trenton and part of the time in Newark. I don’t think Wilford Academy is still operating. But that was where, you know, they would go. So, he was– he became a– a barber in the, where French Street is now, back then Robert Wood Johnson Hospital was not on that street at all. And, uh, where all the powerplant is and, there’s a whole other wing is there. French Street from a retail perspective extended all the way up to just where the old, you know, the– the train track overhead is? Just as you’re going to go underneath there.
[00:54:10]
And, um, there was a series of retail establishments. They were– they catered to the Black community. And, uh, my son’s, uh– uh, beauty barber slash barber shop was there, and that’s where he met the mother of my grandson. Um, they never did get married, but, um, that’s where he met Shelley. And, um, so– so, I’m– I’m looking at French Street, you don’t know what I’m doing. I’m looking at French Street. So, it was an African– she’s now on Hamilton Street where the fish market is across from Tropical. Eunice’s African, um, I guess beauty salon. She had a beauty salon, there was an African shop there. Then there was Gladys’s. Now, Ms. Gladys, she sold hats where the ladies who went to church wear the big beautiful hats? She sold the hats and she had beauticians there also. And– and there were, you know, places to– to buy chicken and all kinds of things. You know what has been there all that time is that, um, I wanna call it like an antique shop, but the– they’re not really an antique shop? But above a lot of these shops is where people lived. The walkups. And, uh, so French Street, back when I first knew French Street, was predominantly Black. It was a Black area for retail and the walkups was the affordable housing, and then, what is that street? [pause] You gotta help me with the streets, Dan. Um, where the, you know, the monument is and then the writing is over here? What is that street? Suydam?
[overlapping] Jersey Avenue?
What is it?
Where it splits?
Yeah.
Jersey Avenue.
Okay. All back in there, you know, that originally was Puerto Rican and Black. But at that point, the– the people coming from Mexico and– and, uh, Central America had not yet really become a– a large community at that point. So that, uh, that was our other introduction, ‘cause if you were looking for Black retail shops, you know, Black beauty parlors, and– and things of that nature, if you were looking for that, one of the places to go, even for me being a little bit of a distance, was French Street in New Brunswick. So, again, I became new, I became aware of and participated in the– the New Brunswick area, um, early on, um, ‘cause Trenton was just too far. And, um, Newark was just way too far.
[00:56:59]
Uh. At that time. Now, I can do Newark like it’s nothing, but, but back then, literally you hop on the– the turnpike and Exit 8 and get off at Exit 9 near here in New Brunswick. So, but New Brunswick has changed geographically. Uh, a lot over the years. I remember, um, the first big push would knock down a lot of the Projects. Where now they have the, like, the town homes? Uh, and they– they– they got rid of a lot of the Projects and the older homes that needed to, you know, needed to go, so, um, alright. So then, there became a point in time where I was still working, but I was already a life member of the NAACP, uh, on paper I had paid, you know, paid the money to do that. But I was a member, I wasn’t like a working member ‘cause I just didn’t have the time, and I– I wasn’t home enough. Uh, but I was asked to MC the annual fundraiser event, it’s called the Freedom Fund Lunch. I forget how many years ago that was. And I would do that, uh. I did several of those, and that’s how the community started to become aware of Toni in that capacity. Um. And as I started moving towards, you know, less and less work, and having more and more availability, then, ‘cause my husband was an officer from the get go. He was the, he was, um, the, he was like the first Vice President and the Treasurer for several presidents before Bruce Morgan even came to the branch. Uh, so he had been active, so they would be in my house having meetings and, and whatnot and– but, I was just a member but listen! [laughs] And I would always understand and,– and by then I was, uh, consulting on the performing arts industry. And, uh, they have this wonderful, uh, you know, organization called AXO for the children, and, um, I would get them free tickets to come to NJPAC and see shows, um, and, uh, have that experience. So, I became noticeable to the public that way, also. And then fast forward a little bit from there, and I, uh, as soon as I was able to, I started to become more active, and again, I started doing it just as a member. I was never trying to be anything more than that, but then at some point, Bruce, you know, he has this wonderful way of just grabbing you and looking at you with that, you know, like that little grin and like, saying, “Don’t you wanna do this?” Uh, and I forgot what the first step is that they got me to do. Uh, and, uh, they found out that I really had, you know, I really was, even though I wasn’t able to engage as much in the civic area, I was still all over politics. You know?
[01:00:08]
I– I– I– I’m a political junkie. So when it came time for me to, um, participate more actively with the branch, that’s how I started. I started doing the voter registration drives, ‘cause I’m a public person, I don’t wanna sit behind, you know, I wanna do the work. So when he said that they were gonna go, such and such, I said, “Can I go with you?” He said, “Can you go with me?” He said, “You can go to anything you want to go to!” So then I started working in community with Bruce and Deb and some others. And we would do, um, voter registration and I very quickly understood that voter education became a very big part of that, so we would start, go to the high schools and, uh, anywhere and, uh, talk to people about voting, voting information, voting rights and things of that nature and, uh, you know, the next thing you know, they asked me to join the executive committee which was an appointment. And then, um, they asked me to run for office and I’m now a second Vice President. So, but what I do for the NAACP is I’m the chairperson for Civic Engagement. Which is anything government, so census work, uh, voting, any of the bills uh, related to the government, um, and community outreach, uh, because I like to be out in the community. We stayed out in the community during COVID. We, uh, we tried to do it smart and we stayed healthy but we never stopped during COVID. And, um, and political action. So those are the areas that are my primary areas of focus. But basically, the NAACP, which people don’t realize is, first of all, it’s all volunteer with the exception of a very few staff at the national level. Number one, all volunteer. Number two, volunteer needs all unpaid. And that shocks a lot of people in our community, because when they come to us, they– they kind of like, “Well you should be doing–”, “Uh, I don’t think he understands.” [laughs] We don’t get paid for doing this! So, we’re working! So, when you call and you get that recording, “Leave a message, we’ll call you back!” But there’s nobody there to answer the phone! We have no staff! [laughs] And they’re like, “You don’t get paid?” No! We don’t get paid for anything that we do! And the money that we raise doesn’t go into our pockets, it goes into the programs that we’re running. So it’s– it’s very surprising to them. Uh, so that’s another thing that– and the other thing that people don’t understand about the NAACP is that it doesn't just focus on, um, but I’ll call the– the police part of the– of– of– of, uh, civil rights, you know, the whole, the summer of George Floyd and the whole, uh, aspect of policing and criminal justice.
[01:03:06]
We’re, it’s– it’s not that– it’s all the rights of an individual. Whether it’s healthcare advocacy, housing advocacy, environmental justice, education justice. Healthcare– we have been so busy in the last two years with all of the different healthcare organizations that have reached out to us to be a trusted voice in the community. It’s unbelievable how much work we’ve been doing in that area. People don’t realize that! Uh, so, uh, the, you know, I really– it’s what I enjoy doing. I like doing it. I like being out in the community. I like being a trusted voice in the community. Uh, and that’s what I’ve been doing. I’ve been very actively engaged now, I wanna say, oh gosh, it must be like ten years.
[01:03:56]
END OF RECORDING THREE
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RECORDING FOUR
[00:00:00]
Yeah, so, in the last ten years, I would say, “Oh, it’s definitely because,” you know what, when Bruce first came in as President, they didn’t know me, they knew Allen. Um, so, let’s see. If this is his eleventh year? Then it’s been ten years, so. I’ve watched New Brunswick change considerably, you know, during that period of time. But what, uh, what I’m very proud of though, is in watching the change that we have built partnerships with the– the– what I’ll call the newer demographic, non-Caucasian demographics that have been coming into the community. I’m very proud of that, because my understanding of– of, uh, racial justice, why it means something very specific to me as a Black American? And as a Black American who is part of the 1619 Slavery, um, America? Uh, versus being from one of the islands or one of the other areas that, uh, Blacks also come from, is that in addition to that being an important part of– of racism, there is racism against other groups of individuals that come into New Brunswick, into the country, into the area. It’s different? In one way, very, very, very different in one way. And very, very the same in another way. And you’re looking at me like, “Oof, what does she mean by that?” Well, it’s different because one of the things that we come across is, we’ve also started building relationships with, uh, Southeast Asian groups. And they will tell you that they understand that they’re considered a “model minority,” “model immigrants.” And what that’s done is, it’s established a form of racism between them and Black Americans. And that’s very sad, that, um, that’s what we’ve continued to have this aspect of racism in this country no where no matter what other ethnicity, non-European, white ethnicity comes into this country–with limited exception–there continues to be this effort to create, like, a pecking order of rights in this country.
[00:03:00]
And, uh, I’ll give you a very specific example. Uh, through my work with the Lost Souls Memorial Project, I have become fairly involved, at a certain level, with East Brunswick. I have a very excellent working relationship with Mayor Brad Cullen. Outstanding. I could text him now, he’d call me back in ten minutes. But there’s a large Indian community, and Chinese community in East Brunswick. And during the summer of George Floyd, I was asked to be a speaker. They did a virtual program where the students of East Brunswick– excuse me, I’m having a little throat issue here. [pause]
[inaudible]?
Yeah, so I don’t mess up the recording.
[00:03:53]
END OF RECORDING FOUR
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RECORDING FIVE
[00:00:00]
So the East Brunswick Youth Council reached out and they asked me to be a speaker at their virtual student event, and I was like, you know, the voice of, um, the adult community for them, and also bringing the– the message from NAACP. And when it was opened up to a dialogue, an interactive dialogue with the students, several children who, you know, that were of in– in– are Indian and living in Indian households, they– they voiced and said, “What do we do when our parents and our family is speaking,” you know, “negatively about, uh, Black Americans? What do we do? Uh, how do we deal with that racism that’s coming from our own family?” It’s heartbreaking! You know, very, very, very heartbreaking, uh, to hear that, um, it’s– it’s– it’s not something you should, you’d have to guess at. I mean, I’m telling you because I know firsthand from these individuals that this is what they’re being taught to do. So I– I try to take it away from, you know, their– their parents on their family structure, try to make it more about how the United States sets up the systems that, if they only understood that the people in their community that are being allowed in are the individuals who are coming in that, you know, tend to have been educated, tend to have wealth or own land or things that, and that the– the people that they have a lot of people in their country that are not living that way, that are not allowed into this country, and how do you feel your country people feel about those people in their country? And they go, “Oooooh.” And they start, it starts to come across. And that’s where, when I became, uh, known for being able to talk in a non-threatening way in those communities, I had a professional women’s group reach out to me and do a program with them. And they use the term freely, “model minority” and “model immigrants”, you know, how we need to move past that, how it’s being used as a wedge in– in the community to keep us divided. Uh, so that’s what I meant by– Uh, you know, the– the– and what they don’t realize is that the way the– the system works is that they’re being viewed as more welcomed because of those qualities that they bring to the table, but then, behind doors, you know, they’re– they’re not being allowed to do a lot of things, or they’re being spoken about in disparaging ways also, because of their racial identity.
[00:03:09]
Uh, it’s– it’s very– it’s a very deep discussion to have with individuals, and they’re not a lot of individuals who– who are ready, ‘cause I can’t talk to anyone’s willingness, you know, I don’t know what that is. But I’ll– so I’ll say, ready to engage at that level of the conversation? A lot of it’s because they’re uncomfortable. A lot of it’s because they don’t know and they feel a little bit intimidated that you’re talking about stuff that I can’t rebut or agree with because I don’t know what you’re talking about. And, you know, I have people who tell me that! “Oh my god, what are you talking about? How do you know this stuff? Where is it coming from?” And– and they’re the ones that are ready to start talking, by the way. I don’t look at that as a bad thing, like, “You’re ready for this discussion, aren’t you!” So we have that dynamic going on in New Brunswick now too, to an extent. What we’re seeing, and– and, I see it first hand, uh, because I engage with New Brunswick Tomorrow and PRAB and– and Latin Action At Work, and– and when we’re in a community that has Blacks and Hispanics, the Blacks will say freely to me, very disparaging things about the Hispanic community. Not based upon their race, but based upon their perception that they have come into their community, the Black community, and have– and are being afforded more privilege and opportunity than the Blacks or the Blacks are being forced out yet again. Um, and I’ve had this conversation with, um, you know, Charles Birdman extensive– extensively. Um. Who’s with Esperanza, with, uh, with the New Brunswick Tomorrow. And, you know, it is a recognition of that, so how do we fix it? You know, how do we make that work? And, uh, we’ve already started about ways how to restart, uh, trying our best to have programs that consider both groups. Unfortunately, I don’t wanna say all because I’m not positive. I think all of us in the NAACP that do the outreach programs, we’re not bilingual, so that’s a very, very bad problem for us. But we will go into the, uh, Hispanic communities! You know, we’ll go! We just need somebody there that’ll, you know, I did voter registration outside the doors of Tropical Rest– uh, Supermarket, and I had Miriam Miset from Robert Wood Johnson, and Cookie Rivera from the Latin Action Network, I said, “Come on out, please! Come on out and do this with me!” They were very pleased because, you know, we had the process, we bought the people, we bought the materials, we made the people feel welcome, and it was very, very successful.
[00:06:04]
And we need to keep doing that! We need to, um, help communities that particularly newer communities that are entering a community that don’t understand the legacy? Uh. Just, uh, a way to make that happen more effectively. But our government does a very good job of making those problems happen, too, because that’s where, uh, I’m gonna tell you straight out, when people in the Black community hear, you know, things like, “Well,” you know, “the– you can give drivers license to people who come into the country,” I’ll use the bad word, “illegally”, you know, like a drivers license, they’ll get college, you know, they’re getting, um, all kinds of economic benefits and the Black community’s been fighting for those things for hundreds of years. Uh, it’s– It’s a hard dialogue! It’s a very difficult dialogue to have. But we’re out there trying our best. That’s community work! That’s community-based work! And then we come across great people like Dan Swern! Plug for Dan! And coLAB! Because the work that is being done by the organization, whether it’s the mural work, um, I– I’ll give you a for instance. When we did the– the dedication of the location for the Lost Souls Public Memorial, which, by the way, is a memorial that is going to be constructed and dedicated to the lives of the– of the known 137 individuals, men, women, and children who resided in the New Brunswick, East Brunswick area, uh, and, around 1818 or so, um, that were sold illegally into slavery by the local judge. We– we have an organization, uh, that we have founded that’s going to build a memorial to these individuals. The quilt that the students from coLAB came up with is like, a, it just brings you to your knees. And we’ve used that in the public display in the East Brunswick Public Library when we were asked to display our materials there. And it’s just, um, a wonderful way of bringing communities together and teaching a history. Fast forward on that to just a couple of weekends ago, we did a– the East Brunswick Youth Council did a walk and learn event around the pond at the East Brunswick Municipal Building, and the two primary students who were responsible for this, one was– is– is a Chinese girl, and the other one is an Indian girl, 9th graders.
[00:09:00]
They took the material off of the Lost Souls website and turned it into a series of placards that, when people walk around this bucolic pond, they can stop and read the history of the Lost Souls. And then they invited the community, come out on a specific Sunday morning and take the walk and learn. And this is what we have to do. We have to keep doing that, and uh. I– I get jazzed at those kinds of events, but, uh, it’s– it’s, yeah. Okay! How are we doing?
Uh, you, you mentioned something that I wasn’t aware of. You said that you were working as an arts consultant?
Oh! I never told you that part! Probably on purpose!
[laughs]
Um. So when I retired from corporate America in 1997, uh, I was invited, I retired in July. In December of that same year, I was invited to a Christmas party at the home of an AT&T executive in Westfield. And when I walked in the door, I realized it was a set up. And this gentlemen, uh, was on the board of directors for the newly constructed New Jersey Performing Arts Center in Newark. And he said to me, “Toni, I need for you to go and talk to these people.” I said, “About what?” He said, “Well, they didn’t know how successful they were going to be, and they’re having,” you know, “customer service issues,” you know, “from sales to getting the phones answered to getting their orders,” you know, just, start up! Successful start up for them, but they just didn’t have enough, um, power behind being organized the way they needed to! And I said, “Come on, Mike! I just retired!” You know? He says, “No, no, no, just, just go talk to them!” Well! I made an appointment, went, spoke to them, and, uh, Larry Goldman, he was, he, he was the– he was the, uh, chair, ah, CEO that got it built and was the CEO for the first, I don’t know, ten, fifteen years. It’s been a while now I– I lose track of time. Met with him and, uh, the head of marketing and a couple of others, and before you know it, I’ve, I continued to have a relationship with them. And uh, uh, it introduced me to the performing arts world, um, particularly in non-profit, and I went on to build a, you know, a, a practice of consulting in that field on the business end and not the booking end! The business of running the centers. Um.
[00:12:04]
I’ve worked, I’m not– in addition to working with them, I’ve worked with the New York Philharmonic. I’ve worked with Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, I’ve worked with the Washington Opera. Uh, I’ve worked with a few that have some storied names. And, um, because even though it’s art, it’s a business. And I know when I first started talking to, um, to the professionals in this area– because they’re– they’re very focused on creative and on the art, and they try to push back, saying, “This isn’t corporate America!” And I’m saying, “Do you give your stuff away? Is it free?” They say, “Of course not!” I say, “Well, then you’re in business, dear! And all I’m doing is helping you understand how to do the business end. I don’t talk to you about the creative! I couldn’t do that if I wanted to! So I wouldn’t touch that! I don’t tell you which artist to plug and,” you know, “how do pay them or anything like that! But I can, I can help you with your operations!” And uh, so I developed, uh, uh, you know, a reputation for being able to do that. And I spent a, you know, I still dabble in it a little bit, but I’m desperately trying to retire. Uh, but I still have a business relationship with a couple of them, uh. So again, it’s not the booking aspect, and it’s certainly not the creative. But when it comes to any of the operations? That's when, uh, the work that I did in corporate America is– is useful regardless what the industry is, I said that it’s totally transferable. If you’re not giving it away, and you’re, you know, you have a revenue stream, then you’re a business and you need to understand what that means and how to operate it that way. So that’s the performing arts part of me that, uh, again, I still do. Little bit. Because I want to retire. Yeah. What else did I mention that you said, “Oh, I didn’t know about that!”
Well that– that’s a lot of it. Uh, I’m just curious if there’s anything that we hadn’t talked about that– that [inaudible] you want to share, make sure gets documented? [pause]
Oh, there’s so much to life. So much to life! [pause] Was there a particular area of– that you know that you’re going for in terms of the threads you’re looking for? ‘Cause, I might have it, just not thinking about it.
Yeah, I mean, the two– the two questions, uh, um. The sort of existential, are, what– What is the goal and the optimism around increased civic engagement, particularly in the Black Community here, and what are the developments [phone rings, overlapping] [inaudible] particularly in New Brunswick?
Hey, are you on?
[00:15:09]
END OF RECORDING FIVE
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RECORDING SIX
[00:00:00]
The thread?
Ah, sorry, uh, I was just asking the two biggest existential questions.
Mhm hmm.
Are, what are the– What are the– are there identifiable goals in terms of the civic engagement that you are working on pushing through NAACP?
Mhm hmm.
And then, specifically, what are the development goals for New Brunswick that you see as–
Mhm.
Ah, important, particularly for the Black community?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, those are, those are great questions. Uh, so, in, in, to the first. Um, education, education, education. Engagement, engagement, engagement. So, what do I mean by that? Uh. What I feel is, is very much a concern in the Black community is that for a variety of reasons, there– there has been a real slowdown from the 60s and 70s in the Black community being educated about its own community. About its legacy, uh, uh, about its history, and about those things that affect it today beyond the headlines, and unfortunately the headlines always seem to be around, you know, police and shootings and things of this nature, the criminal aspect. And what gets lost in the shuffle are all those other aspects of civil rights we talked about. Housing, health care, environmental. All of those other things, uh, education. Um, so, a very big, large, hulking goal for us is to be that voice in the community that provides that education. So, one of the things that I feel really great about is the focus of the branch meetings where we try, when we invite the public to come to a branch meeting, a general membership meeting, we don’t spend a lot of time talking about what we’re doing and how we’re running things. We always try to bring to the community the voice of an expert in a specific topic. And bring that expertise to the community where they can hear directly from that individual, whether it's regarding fair housing, whether it's regarding COVID vaccinations, whether it's regarding redistricting, census, you pick it. We want you to hear the truth. We want you to hear the information as– so you can educate yourself and be informed beyond social media and the noise that takes place out in the larger community, where it’s the conflicting voices, where they have zero to maybe one percent knowledge, and speak to you as though they know exactly what they’re talking about.
[00:02:59]
Unfortunately, our community is no different than others. We’re very good at accepting those things as truth. So, combatting all of that and, uh, you know, ‘cause I lived through the period of time where you knew your stuff, you– you, when you came up during the Civil Rights period, you knew your stuff. It was being taught to you, uh, through a variety of sources. Uh, the media engagement was not a big role in that, it was through the churches, uh, through people in the community, uh, through certain magazines and periodicals and– and newspapers that were geared to the Black community. Through radio? ‘Cause there were several radio stations that were dedicated to it. And– and therefore that engagement and your knowledge was different than it is today, where social media– which is, people just do not understand, is not factual. There are some aspects of social media that are factual, but doesn’t have to be. That’s not what social media is there for. So, um, very much inform, educate, because an informed group of individuals is an empowered group of individuals, and we see the– the– the limited turnout in voting. We see the limited participation in the census. We see the limited, you know, participation in, um, COVID vaccinations, uh. We’re not the only ones, but we see it. We see it, all these things happening through a lack of education. We– we know that, uh, through, you and I spoke briefly about Shanelle Robinson offline. We know that we can win, and we know we can do a great job when we’re put into positions of government and– and power, and authority, but unfortunately we don’t do enough of that helping people in our community understand how to make that transition, how to do that, and if you don’t do that, you’ll never get there. No one is going to hand it to you. So that’s a big piece of how the modern NAACP is functioning across the whole spectrum of our rights. And then very much, inform, educate, then the other very important piece is that– and, some of us, some of our branches are better at this and some of our organizations are better at this than others, is that, we’re trying to make sure that we’re not blocking younger people from moving into the organization and moving up. But we do have to safeguard against those who unfortunately, um, some young people– I won’t say all– come in and feel there’s nothing to learn, and that, “We’re gonna come in and you need us, and we’re– we’re the ones that are,” you know, “make the difference,” and they don’t realize that that’s– that’s not the case at all. Um, that there is a lot that they have to learn, uh, about the whole process, about advocacy, about legal aspects of what we’re doing and things of that nature, and the summer of George Floyd taught us that. Uh, those of us, grizzled old, you know, Civil Rights people sat back and watched what was happening, “Oh, it’s the dawn of a new Civil Rights era!” And we said, “No, it’s not! That is the most disorganized group of individuals I have ever seen in my life!” [laughs]
[00:06:13]
And people, “No, no, no! This is the youth movement, there! Don’t take us back to this, that, and the other!” I said, “We’re not trying to take you back!” But all the, whatever side you’re on has to do a sit and wait until the noise dies down. Because if you don’t have advocacy behind it, and if you don’t have the legal aspects and the legislat– legislative advocacy behind it, all it was is a bunch of noise. And when you think about it, much of what occurred during the summer of George Floyd, what is it? Bunch of noise. Very little has changed in this country as a result of it. But! What I can tell you, is that change is occurring at different levels from the groups that were engaged in advocacy from a legislative and a legal perspective. We see it right here in our own state with the changes that had been made in numerous laws. Still got a ways to go, we still need to have our– our Civilian Complaint Review Boards with subpoena power. You know, you can have the boards, but they don’t have subpoena power, so really, what have you got? Things of that nature, you know. We’ve got new voting laws. Um, we’ve got, um– um, the women’s prison being shut down, you know. We’re– we’re– we’re making progress. Are we splashed across your screen at night? No. Are we making the– the, you know, the social media headlines? No. But that’s where the real work gets done! So we owe it to our community to help them understand that, so we’re actively recruiting and engaging these young people. And, and teaching them and giving them the platform to, you know, go forward. And in New Brunswick, uh, so, what, what has to happen? Something has to happen that deliberately addresses the challenges in our low income sections, neighborhoods that are being plagued now by violence, that are being plagued now by a lack of, you know, of well paying jobs. Um, God Bless Mariam [inaudible], she’s got the healthcare thing under control. Uh, and others that work with her. I don’t, you know, but, you know, Mariam’s a very special person, uh. Housing! Uh, is, housing is just becoming a, a, you know, a nightmare. Uh, if you can find decent housing, you can’t afford it. If you can, if you can find a– affordable housing, it’s not decent. Uh, all these things need to be addressed, but they need to be addressed with the understanding that New Brunswick has to be more of an inclusive environment. Um, for– and to drive inclusiveness across all of the different routes, so if we’re bringing, if we’re trying to attract the, um, I don’t even know what to call it.
[00:09:07]
But the, uh, people who can afford the– the higher rents, uh, and live a– a more middle to upper middle class lifestyle, uh, into the community, what are we doing to bring them into the community? And not putting them into isolated pockets where they never under– they never have to actually engage with the rest of New Brunswick and vice versa. How do we make sure that we can bring the people that are in the older communities, that are changing, that are fighting each other, that are trying to figure out how to get through this, you know, this whole process of what is New Brunswick going to look like in five years from now? How do we get them, you know, engaged in that newer, more gentrified, more, um, financially robust part of New Brunswick? They don’t come there. They don’t do anything there. So, uh, New Brunswick is at a, you know, it’s at a turning point, uh, but I continue to be alarmed that most of the development is just focused on bringing in people with money and high paying jobs. I looked at what's being scheduled for the Hub and I’m like, “Oh God.” So here we’re gonna have to get off the train, walk across to the Hub, you know, do whatever the, you know, they’re there to do. Get back on the train and go home. How is that going to help New Brunswick? In tax base, yeah. But in terms of the– the communities of New Brunswick? I don’t see it. And too much of the development in my opinion is focused on that area. So, I do not understand why Amazon and others are here in Franklin Township, like, they’re all over the place. Twenty-two dollars an hour, starting salaries. Why isn’t that in a walkable location in New Brunswick, Jersey Avenue, along those areas that are blighted? Why isn’t that there? Why? I don’t understand why not. Why are– why is New Brunswick not deliberately bringing in those types of jobs, so that the people can, you know, can get to them? And they can– they can earn a halfway decent– twenty-two bucks an hour, the people over there in Randolph, uh, Avenue– we were just there. They where, they just had us come in, ‘cause I did a– a program for them. And, um, she said, “Let the community know.” So we’re going to have a job fair. They, to their very good credit, are building a– a transit, um, capability from, I believe it’s gonna be from New Brunswick train station to get the people to that location. That’s what needs to– the planners of New Brunswick have to do something like that. They just can’t keep focusing on Robert Wood Johnson, J&J, medical, those– those jobs are, they’re not helping the community. So I hope I answered your questions.
Toni, thank you so much for all of your time today.
It’s been an absolute pleasure. But don’t you do this to me again, Dan!
[laughs]
[00:12:10]
END OF RECORDING SIX