Amanda Lazaro
When Brett Kavanaugh’s sexual misconduct case became public, Amanda Lazaro was triggered into confronting her own past experiences. After posting her story on Facebook, she found the Center for Empowerment and has been working through the Center’s workshops, programs, and one-on-one sessions. She is hopeful about her future.
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More [2]: Catherine M Lee and Karen A Bax, “Children’s Reactions to Parental Separation and Divorce,” Paediatrics & Child Health 5, no. 4 (2000): 217–18.
Learn More [3]: Gail Cornwall and Scott Coltrane, “How Americans Became Convinced Divorce Is Bad for Kids,” Slate, July 11, 2022.
Learn More [3]: “Effects of Sexual Violence,” RAINN, accessed August 30, 2021.
Learn More: “What Should I Do After A Child Tells?,” Stop It Now, accessed December 9, 2022.
Learn More [2]: “Help for Parents of Children Who Have Been Sexually Abused by Family Members,” RAINN, accessed December 9, 2022.
Learn More [2]: “What Might Happen after a Report Is Filed?,” Stop It Now, accessed December 9, 2022.
Learn More [3]: “Why Don’t They Tell? Teens and Sexual Assault Disclosure” (The National Child Traumatic Stress Network, n.d.).
Learn More: “Underage Drinking,” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, October 6, 2021.
Learn More [2]: “Underage Drinking,” National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), October 2022.
Learn More [2]: “Drinking Too Much Alcohol Can Harm Your Health. Learn the Facts,” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, October 24, 2022.
Learn More [3]: “Understanding Alcohol Use Disorders and Their Treatment,” American Psychological Association, September 2018.
Learn More: “Mounting Evidence of the Benefits of 12-Step Sponsors,” Recovery Research Institute (blog), June 1, 2017.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by John Keller
New Brunswick, New Jersey
September 15, 2020
Transcription by Chrissy Briskin
Annotations by Kristine Amarante
00:00
Ok, great, this is John Keller with coLAB Arts. It is Tuesday September 15th, 2020. I'm located at coLAB art's office space at 9 Bayard Street in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We’re doing this interview via Zoom because of Covid in order to maintain proper social distancing for safety. Today we are interviewing–
Amanda Lazaro
Great. And Amanda, could you just spell your name for us just for the record?
Yes. It’s A-M-A-N-D-A Lazaro, L-A-Z-A-R-O
Great and what town do you live in?
I'm in Old Bridge.
Great, so that kind of takes care of the business portion so we’ll just kind of go from the beginning. Where were you born?
I was born in Belleville, New Jersey, it’s North Jersey, uh, right next to Newark.
Ok, when you were born? What was your family structure like at the time?
Um, Mom, Dad, and I was the first born.
And did you live in a house or an apartment building or, kind of like, what was your first memories of the space that you lived in?
The first memories wouldn't be where I first lived. I believe we lived on Lake Street in Newark, I think that was, like, for, like, maybe, like, a year. My first memories were in an apartment and I remember having, like, a pink rug that's what I remember. It's, like, a pink rug and I remember at some point I probably would have blamed it on my sister, but I might have had a part in crayon drawings on the wall in our playroom. Um, yeah but that would probably be like my first, like, early memories of, like, living in a household.
And how old were you when your siblings came along?
I was one and a half. She was born in April. I'm the July baby. One and a half, I always say two years, though. [laughter]
Um, when you– when you were growing up– so you said it was your mom and your dad, was there any other extended family around grandparents or other generations around?
Yeah, we always had both sets of grandparents around, you know, at a young age. We had a big family. My mom is one of seven, so there was always, like, a lot of people around which always comes with, like, mass chaos, but it just became, like, a norm. My dad is one of four, so you know we always had, like, aunts and uncles around, our grandparents around, um, so it was always big gatherings.
And were both sides of those families originally from the New Jersey area?
Yes, they both were from Belleville.
And then what kinds of family activities would you all, kind of like, join in or gather in as a kid?
Well, it very quickly became separated, um, within the household because my parents got divorced when I was in, like, second or third grade so all, like, my memories of gatherings were all, like, either mom's side or dad's side. Usually, like, Mom's side it was always like a big thing because of how many people there were. Usually, the big time was, like, in the summer we would go to my grandad's house and they would have parties in the backyard there. They had a big pool and, you know, it wasn't a huge backyard, you know, looking at it now as an adult, but as a kid it looks, you know, ginormous. But we had a pool, you know, my grandfather built a table and, you know, there was always like parties that involved a lot of, like, drinking of, you know, the, you know, the adults, and of course as kids we always wanted to be like the adults. There was drinking, there was smoking cigarettes, I even remember there being like a roulette table they had out back, and I remember my uncle actually giving me cigarettes to bet with. [laughter] You know it's probably not the best way to go about raising children, but I just remember it always being big. You know, Fourth of Julys were always huge, 'cause, you know, my grandparents lived by the high school where they said the fireworks, and during the day they would have, like, relay races and stuff like that for kids, and food trucks and stuff, so it was like a big thing, we just run back and forth throughout the day between my grandparents’ house and the high school, and then we’d all gather to the high school for, you know, get our usual spot for the fireworks. So it was always, like, a big thing, but then there was also, like, negativity with that as well, you know, being, you know, seven brothers and sisters, you know, there was a lot of alcohol involved, there was fights, you know, I remember a couple times where the cops would show up well. So you know, as good as there were memories, there were some that were not– not so great as well.
5:08
When your, um, when your parents split up, did that change your relationship with your individual– with your parents individually, your relationship with your dad, your relationship with your mom?
At some points it did, um, I think I didn't understand, like, why. Like, I can remember being on the top bunk at night and I can remember hearing them fighting, you know, but I never really– at that time it wasn't normal, I feel like for a parent to be divorced I remember always feeling, like, as a kid, like, I'm the only one whose parents are divorced. You know, now it seems to be, like, you know, everybody's divorced, but I felt like back then it just wasn't really, you know, as talked about or it just wasn't happening as much. So I always felt like that distinc– like, that distinction between myself and my peers and then at one point, you know, I definitely, like, favored my dad at– you know, throughout, for a while, I don't know it was just like, you know I just clung to my dad.
What was– I didn't ask you this at the top, do you mind sharing what year you were born?
Ah, ‘85.
‘85 so did you– were you– who are you primarily living with? Were you living with one parent?
Yeah, my mom and then my dad would take us, I think it was, like, usually one day during the week, and then sometimes on weekends, it depended on his work schedule, 'cause that was always changing.
And then what was your relationship like with your sister?
We never had, like, a close relationship. Um, you know it was like we loved each other, but we never– like, it was like one of those things where we never wanted to hang out with each other or anything like that so we weren't, like, the typical, like, best friend sisters type of situation, you know. I usually clung to my older cousin on my mom's side and my younger cousin on my dad's side. Those were like my best friends; it was never my sister and I were never really all that close.
What were some of your earliest memories of school of, ah, starting school?
It is hard– it's hard honestly to remember 'cause like the only thing that I do remember about going to school are like little fragments, and the one that stands out the most was– and that's the weird thing is I don't know how true it is, but I feel like this happened that it was one of the days where my parents were going to court, and two of my best friends from school, Lucia and Maria, they were outside waiting for me, now I don't know, and that's the thing, it's a memory but I don't know, that's the only thing that comes to mind, you know?
Did you go to school– did you go to the public school in Belleville?
I went to a couple different ones growing up, 'cause we moved, you know, we moved quite a bit during elementary school, so I think I went to three different elementary schools.
What other towns did you live in during that period?
Growing up I just lived in Belleville up until I went to college, but throughout that time I think there was, like, probably around seven different elementary schools in that town, so I had move– we had moved around a couple of times, and depending on where we were, that's where I ended up at the school.
Gotcha, gotcha, so did you like to do, like, any, like, school, or did you like any particular subjects in school, you know, when you were growing up?
I did, up until I think I stopped enjoying school probably around fifth or sixth grade, um, and then it just got worse after that. Um, I never really liked school, I always just felt like, um, even now, like, I struggle with, you know, feeling book smart in that kind of sense, um, it was just never really my thing: studying. The only time that I was really engaged in something was something that I was interested in. So the only thing that I can remember I actually really liked in school was probably in high school when I took psychology and public speaking, because they were things that actually intrigued me. Other than that I didn't really– I just tried to keep up my grades good enough so that I could play sports, that was all it was.
9:30
So what kind of sports did you play?
The first one is so nerdy, but I was on the bowling team for four years of high school. I was on varsity for all four years. Um, I did a little bit of softball, I did four years of soccer, and I did two years of crew. Crew I loved, that was my favorite.
What did you like about it?
I just liked that it felt so different, you know, like it wasn't like anything else that you liked, you know, growing up. 'Cause growing up you play baseball, you play soccer, you know, but then when you go to high school and you can do crew, you’re on the water, you know, you’re rowing as a team, they had all these cool phrases, you know, if you catch a crab, you know, you gotta duck, and like it was a different form of a sport. You know, we regularly were at the boathouse, you know, on the erg if we couldn’t get on the water, you know, racing on the ergs and you– it was just so cool to be in that kind of environment.
Racing on the what? On the ergs?
Erg, yeah, it’s an ergometer, uh, you can find them sometimes at gyms. They’re supposed to like, emulate, that, like, rowing–
Gotcha.
Um, you know that position, um, and it was just– it was– and it was almost like a form of freedom, because on the weekends when we’d have races they’d be like in Philly or Camden, and we’d have to get up at like two o’clock in the morning to get to our bus. And, um, we’d kind of had a little freedom there. So we'd have tents and of course if you had a boyfriend, you know, you got to get close to him without, like, too much parental, so, you know, I guess the part of the rebellious me enjoyed, like, the fact that I could do whatever I want while I was there.
Um, speaking of romantic relationships, um, what was that, um, uh, kind of like? That period of time when you were, like, going through puberty and, kind of like, recognizing or, like, you know, having those experiences, what was that period of time like?
It was– it was very hard– because I was– okay, so just have back up a little bit. I was sexually abused when I was thirteen. So before all that physical stuff with relationships and really starting to, like, flow into that, you know, I already had, like, a tainted sense of, you know, what I guess romance would be? Or what a relationship would be? So, you know, the first time I had sex, um, I didn't want it to be this big romantic thing that I fell in love with somebody and it was going to be beautiful. No, I felt like that would be a huge regret in my life 'cause then I would get hurt and, you know, why do that to myself? So I wanted it to be with somebody that I was friends with. So that's what I did. I chose somebody who we both agreed like, you know, like, “Hey this will be both of our first, we're friends, we’re cool,” and that's how it happened. So there was never really, like, that kind of, like, “Ooh, I want to be in love,” and, you know, lose my virginity for the first time to a boy that I really loved, like, that wasn't– that wasn't in the cards for me at that moment.
Gotcha, how old were you, when you– when you have that kind of, like, conscious choice that, like, that I'm giving consent now and I'm going to have a physical relationship with someone. How old were you?
Uh, the first time I had sex I was sixteen.
Is there any– do you wanna, kind of like, background in terms of the nature of the abuse when you were thirteen, or–
Yeah, so, um, let’s see, so I was sexually abused by my mother's boyfriend. Um, they were together for four years before it happened, so like pretty much there was this relationship built between, you know, all of us, between, you know, my mom, her boyfriend, my sister. It was like he almost took up a role of like a second father, um, you know and we had even all went to Puerto Rico together on vacation. It was very much like a family. Um, he didn't live with us however, and at the time, like, I never thought anything of it because you don't know, you just know that your mom's boyfriend, he's like, you know, another father figure on top of your own. Um, and then, um, it was five days before my fourteenth birthday and, um, it was a weekend, it was a Sunday, and my mom and my sister had, uh, had been out the whole weekend because my sister was doing traveling softball at the time and I stayed at my aunt's house that day. Um, and I distinctly remember, and this will make sense a little bit later into the conversation, I remember watching Lifetime movies with my aunt, and one of them being where guards were abusing the female inmates. And I remember thinking to myself like, “I would never let that happen to me.” Um, fast forward some hours later, um, I– I don't know if my mom was upstairs in bed already, or where my sister was, but he was sitting on the couch, and I was laying down with my head on his lap, and that's when he sexually abused me. Um, there was no rape involved, but there were other things involved, and it felt like it took forever. Like, it felt like– looking at it now it might have been only five, ten minutes, I’m not sure, but it felt like it was hours, you know, at that point in time, and when it happened it was like, you know, he started rubbing my head, and it was almost like I could see what was happening, like, in slow motion but for whatever reason, it was like denial was in the back of my head, like, “No this isn't going to happen, this isn’t happening,” and then when it came down to it, I just completely froze.
15:21
I pretended like I was still sleeping, um, and it's something I still struggle with, like, why didn’t I fight for myself? You know, why didn’t I do what I said I was going to do a couple hours before? I literally just said I would never let somebody do that to me, and then, you know, fast forward, you know, hours later and this is happening and– and I– I didn't know how to react to it. I didn't– I didn't know what to do. I was so afraid to move, you know, and I remember thinking like, don't– don't blink, don't move your eyes too much, like, you know, don't move your body around because if you move then he's gonna know you're awake. It was like, this, like, fear, like, encompassed my whole body. Um, and I was so afraid to just say no, or stop, or like what are you doing, you know, and then the next thing, um, I remember after it happened, the movie You've Got Mail was on, and I can remember hearing the credits running, um, and then he got up and he went to the kitchen for a little while, and I didn't realize he was going to the kitchen. Later found out that the trip to Puerto Rico: we had pictures in the kitchen and he took all his pictures, all the ones with him in it with him that night. So it was like he knew he did something wrong, um, but it still kind of confuses me, like if you thought I was sleeping, er, like, what were you going to do next? You know, like what was your plan? Were you going to be honest about it or were you just gonna like– how is this going to play out had I not done anything? You know, had I not said anything? So then once I heard him leaving, um, it was just kind of like a weird experience because I was so– I didn't know what happened. Like, I knew what happened, but it was like, it was so hard to, like, just come to terms of like what do I do now, you know? I tried laying in bed, and I was shaking, and I remember crying thinking I don't know what to do. Um, so I went into my basement and I tried to call my friend Dane who didn't answer and it was like 12:30 at night by then so, you know, who would answer? And then I called my cousin and she answered. And I remember telling her what happened and she was just– she was so upset and, um, I said, “You need to tell your mom to come and get me, like, I can't be here, your mom needs to come get me.” So she tried, and she's like, “Mom, like you got to get Amanda.” And she told her no. She was like, “I'm not going to go pick her up if she just had a fight with her mom,” because me and my mom had a strained relationship at that time. So she put her mom on the phone with me and she said, “You know what's going– like, I'm not coming– what's going on?” And I couldn't tell her. So I told my cousin like, “Can you tell her what happened?” and she told her, and she came to pick me up in the middle of the night, and I left a note for my mom saying, you know, 'cause she told me write a note for your mom let her know where you are. So I wrote her a note telling her I'm at, you know, Aunt Jackie's house. So we went there, you know, back to– to my cousin's house, and I remember my aunt being in the living room, and she couldn't sleep, I couldn't sleep, my cousin couldn't sleep, and me and my cousin were playing board games in the kitchen, and I want to say we started drinking Kahlua, and I don't think my aunt even said anything at that point, because I don't even think she knew how to react at that point, you know what I mean, to tell me– you got to tell me no after you know something traumatic had just happened, and then I remember falling asleep in the top, uh, bed bunk in her house and being woken up by my mom.
Mmm, and what was the– what was the kind of like– as you’re kind of telling the story initially to your cousin and your aunt, did you feel believed at the time?
Oh a hundred percent I did. I had such a– like I said, that was my cousin on my dad's side who I was like– we were thick as thieves, and not for one second did I not feel believed, 'cause even my aunt, you know, the only reason why she didn’t want to come and get me was 'cause she thought I had a fight with my mom and she didn't want to, you know, add more stress to the situation. And I completely understand that. But as soon as my cousin told her what happened, she was there for me.
19:51
And then what happened? Did you tell anyone else after that, or did you have the conversation with your mom?
So yeah, so I guess my aunt had already told my mom what was going on, um, and then I can remember, like, my mom being upset, and then they knew that they had to tell my dad and that was going to a scary thing, and the next thing we knew we were going to report it to the police that was one thing, but they– you needed to tell my dad was going on first. So my aunt had come back to the house with, you know, myself and my mother, and my mom had– I remember my mom pouring my dad a scotch before he even came because, you know, she knew it was going to be not– not– not a good situation. I remember him sitting down at the kitchen table, and I remember my mom being at one door– at the back door and my aunt being at the opening of the kitchen, and they were just kind of trying to block him, just in case God forbid he went nuts, and, you know, you know wanted to– the guy lived a block and a half away from us, so it was very close proximity he could have gotten out of the house ran to him and, you know, attacked him physically. But that's all I remember of that and then we went to the police station and–
And you participated in that conversation? When you were telling your dad?
I think I just stood there. I don't remember saying anything, like at that point I couldn't, like I had no problem telling my cousin what had happened, but when it came to telling my aunt, telling her, like I couldn't do it, I couldn't get it out. I don't know if it was because it was an adult I had to tell, but for whatever reason I couldn't articulate well at the time. So I just remember standing there in the kitchen. But we did go to the police station that day and, um, to report it and I remember– it’s crazy because like the mind is like pretty wild when you think about it, when you go into the depths of the mind, because one of the things that the– the officers had to ask me if there was anything distinctive about him, and they had known him from like the bowling alley. I don't know if you remember how old you are. Bowling alleys were big back in the day where you can hang out on Saturday night and bowling leagues and midnight bowling, and he used the bowl a lot. That's how him and my mother met. And the police, you know, would have, you know, their leagues as well, so they knew who he was as soon as they said, you know, we said his name. But they still had to ask me certain questions. And one of them was can you tell us any you know, distinct features of his? And I couldn't. They had to kind of guide me. You know, they said, you know, is there any– I remember– I remember the detective putting his hand up being like, “Is there anything with his hand, you know, is there anything with his hand?” Now he had this much of his hand blown off if you could see, um, I think we were told it was in a war? However, there was a lot of lies that went on, so I don't know how true that was. So he was missing like a good chunk of one of his– you know, four of the five fingers on his left hand. And I couldn't even, I couldn't remember that, in that moment. And that's why I say your mind is pretty wild because, you know, I knew this man for four years like the back of my hand and I couldn't remember that. You know, that's not an everyday thing you see. Um, he had tattoos, you know, and back then even though they were cool, like it wasn't– it wasn't as much of a thing as it is now. You know he always wore a Harley-Davidson hat with, you know, his hair in a ponytail and I couldn't remember that, you know, I don't think I ever saw him without a hat on. So it was like all these little things that I couldn't remember when they were asking me because it was like in that moment, you know, the days after that I forgot everything it was like I was a child– Like, I was a child, but like a younger child who didn't know anything about anything, and it was like everything was just so– it was just like this big whirlwind in my head where nothing made sense, I didn't understand anything, I couldn’t comprehend anything, I didn't know the world, the life anymore, you know, it was just very much like I don't– I don't know anything, you know, and, you know, after I just became very like isolated in a sense where it was like I didn't know how to be anymore. I didn't know how to talk, like, I didn't know– I didn't know how to be around anyone and I didn't know how to answer simple questions that, you know, one would know after four years of knowing someone.
25:08
Did that– did that kind of continue on for a long period of time? Was that kind of your short term response?
That was a short term response and it carried over just a little bit, 'cause that was in July and that was the summer before I started high school. And I can remember going to high school being afraid of everyone. Um, I was very much afraid walking down the hallways and there wasn't anything in particular I was afraid of, I was just scared. And then quickly after that I became assimilated, you know, as far as like, there were already people that I knew that went to school there, you know what I mean? And quickly, you know, you get into the whole, “I'm going to school. I'm in high school. This is big,” you know for anyone, you know, your first year of high school, you know, it's like your freshman year you don't know what you're getting yourself into. And then in the back of my mind I have this thing that's weighing heavy and it's like almost like a part of you has to, like, compartmentalize that, and it's like you just push it down to get through what you need to do on a day-to-day basis.
What was– kind of reflecting back on it– your– the, uh– the experience that you had at the police department? Looking back on it, how would you kind of rate that experience, or the questions that they asked or your experience as someone who is reporting?
It was terrifying. Because you're a child and, um, it's scary because like I– in the days after, and even when I was at the police station, like I kept on thinking to myself like, “Am I lying? Like, did this really happen? Like, am I putting my family through this for no reason? Like, why am I doing this?” And I started to question myself, like I started to question if it really happened because there could be– this couldn’t happen, you know? So, you know, so, you know, sitting there and being questioned, then questioning yourself, you know, at the same time, while you're, you know, trying to figure out, like, why. It was hard because, you know, you grow up and you're told to love and trust, you know, and you're told to believe that, you know, these people are– you know, these parental people in your life are there to protect you and keep you safe, and one of the people that was in that, you know, category for me did not. You know, he harmed me. So being in a police station and struggling with the internal stuff, trying to figure out, like, what just happened, and what's going on and questioning yourself to the point where– did I make this up? To have somebody question you on top of it, it was very overwhelming. And I– and I still feel like that would still be the same way as an adult, because when you trust somebody with everything and like they just break you? 'Cause that's what it feels like. Like, he broke me, um, it's like your world is turned upside down and you don't know who you are anymore, you don't know who anybody else is anymore, and it's like– it's– it's scary. So as a kid? Yeah it was terrifying, because not only did I have to tell them what happened but like I had to admit it, you know? I had to admit what happened. And it was hard enough, you know, doing that to strangers I had to do it with my parents.
29:02
Had you, at that time, had it ever been– one of the things that came up in the pre-interview is you talked about, like, you know, kind of finding the Center for Empowerment later, you know, fairly recently. At the time, was it ever suggested, or do you ever kind of reach out to have a conversation with other professionals whether it was mental health professionals or someone who is, you know, reaching out to kind of get support other than the police, you know?
At the time? No. I remember going through a lot of therapists as a teenager, um, but I feel like I was putting therapy, um, because my mom found it hard to deal with me. Um, and not– I don't think she recognized where it was coming from and it was just kind of like a thing that, you know, once it happened and once, you know, certain family, you know, members meaning my aunts on my dad's side knew about it, that was it. There was no looking for, you know, professional help to deal with that, you know, as far as I remember, but I do remember going to a lot of different therapists, trying different depression medications, and at some point, I want to say it was like an old, you know, probably my junior year of high school? I could be completely wrong, but I want to say I was like a little bit older, a teenager, where I did go to a specialist one time. And I felt really good after I left, and my dad had taken me, and then after that I never went back again. I didn’t want to go back.
So as you– you were kind of talking a little bit before about the– did you– were you on crew all four years of high school? You did two years? But, or you did bowling all four years? [laughter] No judgement there. I was a bowler, it’s a very Jersey thing I feel like. So what was your– who is your social network in high school? Were they– were they predominantly your sports friends, were they friends from your neighborhood or mostly friends from school or other places?
It was somewhat of a mix, but I would say eventually it was like predominantly, I guess you could say like the misfits. Um, the ones who didn’t care about school, show up drunk at school. Um, I had a friend at the time, who lived relatively close to me within, you know, walking distance and I remember spending a lot of time at her house and her mom never cared anything about what we did. So it was very easy to go there, drink, have parties. It was mostly like the bad kids, I guess you would call us, I don't know. Because at that point, like, you know, I did start drinking, you know, during high school and it wasn't something new to me because, you know, I grew up, you know, with my family drinking around me. And of course I snuck drinks and, you know, my first cigarette was when I was eleven years old. Um, you know, I snuck it from my grandad's pack of cigarettes and smoked it in his chair while he was upstairs. And my mom still to this day is like, “The balls on you as a kid to do that.” He would have beat me if he would have, you know, found out. But, um, I can remember being a child, and Tuesday night's bowling night for my mom, my grandmother, and my aunts, and I remember going to sit at the the table in the kitchen table, my granddad just waiting for him to slide his beer over, and that meant that was the go-ahead for me to take a sip. And, you know, I would just sit there waiting for him to slide it over and, and I would. And I can remember, and this is, you know, what I learned in AA at one point, was that, you know, it was like that early addiction that early, like, need, because, you know, I liked the taste of the bubbles and all that, but I distinctly remember there was a metal mat outside the back stairs, and I can remember when I heard the noise from the metal that means they were home, so I had maybe about a good ten to twenty seconds to get another sip in before they came in. Um, I don’t know where I was going with that [laughter], I forgot the question. But um–
We were talking about social life–
Social life, yeah so from an early age, I had already been introduced to alcohol in some form– cigarettes– um, so when it came to high school, you know, it was something that I knew that I liked, and, you know, I remember hanging out a little bit with my sports friends but not as much as into it as I was, you know, with, you know, the people that lived around me and, you know, with them, you know, I met other people. I remember meeting this one kid who I became close friends with who was actually in a school for like bad kids and through him I met, you know, another kid who I ended up dating– “dating,” I don't know, it probably was like three months or whatever. That was our thing, you know, we would have parties there, she had a big pool, and nobody at the house, no adult there cared what we did. So it was like free-range.
34:43
Um, what was the– as you were, kind of like, making your way through high school, did you start developing plans or thoughts about what you would do after school?
Um, no. There was no planning, honestly it was about, you know, the instant gratification. What am I– what are we doing this weekend? You know what are we going to do, how are we gonna prepare for it, if we’re gonna go bowling, how do we sneak liquor in? You know, or where are we drinking? We're going to the pool hall? Okay let's go walk down, you know, walk down Washington Avenue in Newark to the liquor store that sells to– you know, sells alcohol to us. Buy up everything that we can and, you know, we’ll go to the pool hall. You know, until I was banned from there from my dad, because he was a firefighter so all the cops knew him and they either saw my car, or they saw me there one time. He’s like, “What are you doing at Guys and Dolls?” And I'm like, “Playing pool.” But apparently there were like, a lot of not good people in that area– in that place. Doesn't mean I didn't try to go again, but I just had to be sneakier about it that time you know? But that's what it was.There was no future, you know, especially for the fact that I didn't like school anyways, you know? Why would I put myself through more school that I don't enjoy and what would I even do anyways, you know? There was no tomorrow, you know, there was no future, it was just about now and, you know, what I'm going to do now. You know, how do I get the new pair of the UFO pants? Or, you know, how do I get to where I need to be right now? So there was– there was no forethought of a future.
And how long would you say that that, kind of like, frame of– frame of mind kind of lasted? Like how– how– how many years– what did you do after high school, what was kind of like your next move?
I went to culinary school because it was an easy out. You know my parents wanted me to go to college and, you know, I'm like, “Well it's cooking so not gonna really have to do much book stuff right?” And that was my easy out, you know? I went to culinary school and, you know, the drinking just continued there, the drugs progressed there, it just slowly got worse there.
Where did you go?
I went to Atlantic Cape Community College. They have a culinary arts program there that I did.
And how long did you stay there for?
I completed two years of that. It was a two-year program, however I never, like, officially graduated because I believe there was a nutrition class, and that was a book class where you actually had to sit there and not– you know it was not practical learning. It was very, like– learning you know, math, all this kind of, you know, how to put a nutrition list together and all this other stuff, and I wasn’t having that. So I just didn't– I stopped going. So I never actually really graduated from there. But I did go two years there, and they threw in academics and, you know, my syllabus, um, all my classes I either withdrew from or I failed out of except for psychology. Psychology was the only one that I didn't not go to, and honestly I can't remember even going. I couldn’t tell you what the classroom looked like, I couldn’t tell you anything– I couldn’t even tell you who my professor was. I don’t remember. I have no idea. But it benefits me now that I took it, 'cause it's going towards my college credits now.
So when you– um– when you left culinary school were you living at home at the time or were you living on your own?
When I started college I moved in with my grandmother because she was in Barnegat, which was close to my college, and then shortly after I found a couple friends there who needed a roommate so I was on my own. And that's like a recipe for disaster for someone like me.Um, so I lived with three girls in a two-bedroom apartment but it was like the luxury life because you're on your own and you're in college. Um, and I stayed there after I graduated, I want to say I moved back in with my dad for a little bit–
And this would have been around what? 2003, 4? No, later than that.
I went to college in– I started in the fall of 2003 and I ended in 2005.
Okay. And then, so then when you left there then you wind up back with your dad you said?
And then I moved back in with my dad who was living in Toms River at the time.
And how was that time living there?
Well I got a job as a waitress so for anyone who's, you know, heavy into drinking and using, it's just like the perfect place to work. I hate to say it but I had such a fun time there, you know? As a young girl you pretty much get away with whatever you want and that's the sad truth, you know, one of my best friends was the bartender so, you know, she would make me drinks behind the bar and, you know, put them in a regular cup, and, you know, slip me Xanaxes just for fun. And it was just like a game, you know, it was a job but it was just like a game, we would have fun every night and, you know, after work it's like, “Okay well what are we doing now?” Or, you know, I can distinctly remember, you know, a New Year's Eve where, you know, we're working, and we're all like fighting for who can get cut first because we had to go get ready, you know, we needed– I needed to be drunk by the time the ball drops. And I can remember there being four of us girls getting cut early and being in the bathroom it looked like a runway wardrobe. We had clothes hanging from the doors, we had, you know, irons, you know, hair straighteners plugged into the walls, make up everywhere. I'm trying to get all dressed up so we can go back into our own restaurant and– and, you know, dance around and drink, you know, 'cause they had a DJ. And that's what it was, you know? And then I had to be up, you know, the next morning and serve the people that, you know, I was drinking with from the night before. So it was just like one big party.
41:23
And how long was that period of time working at that job and living there?
Um, I honestly can’t even remember. A lot of it becomes a big blur. Um, because aside from drinking, I was also doing– any pill that you put in front of me I would’ve took and I wouldn’t even ask. I was just like, “Oh thanks.” My favorite drug of choice at that time was coke mixed in with alcohol. I felt like I was untouchable and I always felt like I was like the coolest one there, you know, the prettiest one there, and it makes you, like, delusional, 'cause then you look in the mirror the next day and it's like, “Ugh.” But, um, so yeah a lot of that stuff is kind of foggy. I do remember going to a lot of clubs at that time. Um, I remember like– and I miss this so bad: going to Paradise in Asbury, especially for drag night because I, you know, I would do full on makeup, I would put, you know, a bright red wig on, and I loved it because, you know, the attention I got from drag queens, it made me so happy inside and I want to go there again, and like obviously I can't now but I miss it you know? I miss dancing and that was a huge part of it, you always felt free, you know, there was no worries, you know, you just went and no judgment, and you didn’t have to worry about getting hit on, and it was just fun. It was just a good time. That’s what I spent like a lot of my time doing was having fun. And then at one point I think I ended up at my grand– I ended up living in Asbury with my cousin at one point, my dad kicked me out, gave me a month, I was like, “Don’t worry, I got a day,” and I called my cousin, I’m like, “Hey can I move in with you?” He’s like, “Under one condition,” I’m like, “What’s that?” He's like, “You gotta come to AC with me tonight.” I said, “Sure.” He’s like, “I’ll have you out by tomorrow.” So eleven o’clock at night we go to AC with some coke on hand with us. We're there until God knows what time in the morning gambling, and drinking, you know, using, uh, a gum, a chewing gum packet as, you know, our stash, and we would– can I have a piece of gum and I gotta go to bathroom and just do lines on the toilet bowl, on the toilet bowl tank rather. Um, I’ve done that in clubs like it was, that was what it was about. And I lived with him in Asbury for, I don't know, probably, it was maybe a couple months if that, and then I, and at one point, I– at some point I ended up living with my grandmother. I think I lost all my other resources and my sister had moved down to North Carolina and with a conversation she said, “You know I think you should move down here you're not making good decisions up there.” And I was like, “Nah, you know, like I'm having fun.” And then I had went down there to visit her for like a week and then a month later I had moved down to North Carolina just like that.
What was the, uh, you had said before that your dad threw you out, was that related to kind of your relationship at that time? Or was it related to how you were living?
It was more I think it was the relationship I had with my stepmother. Um, at that time I think it was like a little strained. Growing up we were fine, but then I guess as I got older, you know, when everything else kind of came into play my relationship with my stepmother got strained and I think he just got tired of it, tired of my attitude and he said you have a month. And I was like, alright. And I was hurt, you know? He was always my person, you know, and now you're what? Where am I going to go? I think it was probably in twenty four hours I was out.
45:23
Was anyone in your family expressing concern over– over your drinking and your drug use or was it known to them at the time?
I think I would have told you no, but after having conversation with my mother I can actually remember seeing– and this is another one too. At one point I was living in a condo in Toms River. It was my mom's condo and I moved in with her. I think originally it was to help her with bills and then very shortly after she moved in with her boyfriend at the time so I was on my own there. And I do actually remember her coming there one time and sitting on the couch and my head was on her lap and she's rubbing my hair and I remember her telling me something I should probably slow down on my drinking. Um and I think I cried a little bit, um, 'cause I kind of felt that, but listen, unless you’re fully ready, you can put on the tears, you can have that moment, you know, that's what it was like. Like, I genuinely, yeah obviously was upset, and I was probably like, “Yeah you’re right,” but that was just a moment.
How old were you when that happened?
I believe I was like 22 when that happened. 22 or 23. But like I said, that's just a bad moment you're having. You know, I'm just crying because, you know, I had a bad night, you know, but that's all I ever chalked it up to be. You know, they were bad nights, you know, the mistakes, you know, I didn't mean to do that, you know. Little things like that, but, ugh, just thinking about it, it's crazy, like honestly I should probably be in jail or dead by now with all the stuff that I did.
I mean do you have– do you have, like, a point of view on what motivated all of that for you? Like what made it– what kept you going in terms of drinking and living that lifestyle if you had that moment of like, oh maybe that person is right? Do you have an impulse of why you did that?
I do. I think because– I think there’s a couple different reasons why. One of them being was that, you know, what masks any real feelings that you have. You know if I'm drinking and using I don't have to think about what's really going on. I don't have to look at myself, you know? Because deep seated is all this stuff that I just have always just pushed down. That was always my go to; just push everything down. Push it down far enough that you don’t have to think about it and God forbid it does, don't worry because you're either drunk or high so it doesn't matter. So it masks all those feelings and you don't have to be conscious of anything, you know, you don't have to think about anything and, like I said, you’re free, you know. And the other part of it is that, you know, I always thought I was having fun, and I liked the attention, you know? Even now I still can like attention, but only to a certain degree, and in a sense, but I always felt like I was the center of attention and loved it, you know, I loved the attention, I didn’t care who it was from. You know and it’s that feeling of always feeling like you're the best looking one there, it’s that vainness of I gotta look better than everybody else, and it’s like this liquid confidence, you know, forget the courage part, obviously there was courage involved in that, but there was this liquid confidence. Like you were untouchable and that I guess at that point in my life, even now I struggle with having the confidence in myself I should have. Um, 'cause even now sometimes I’ll be having a day or a week and sometimes I'll cry thinking to myself, you know, why can't I be quote unquote normal and why can't I just go have a drink and, you know, or get high and just be able to relax and de-stress or not have to think about, you know, the one part of being sober that sucks is that you’re one hundred percent conscious of everything at all times you know? You never get that break, you never get that mental break, you know? So yeah so I kept going because I liked it, you know, because it made me feel confident because, you know, I didn't have to think about anything, you know, and it was always, to me? It wasn’t always fun looking back, but in those moments, I always thought it was fun. You know it was always a good time and no matter what, you know, I always seemed to get out of these sticky situations where not everybody would have, you know, just being a hundred percent, you know, transparent, you know, not everybody would have. But because I was young, I was a girl, I had big boobs, it was easy to get away with certain stuff, you know, cops included.
50:28
Um, and as disgusting as it is, you know, I took advantage of that because I was having fun, I was doing what I wanted. Um, at that time that becomes like a priority, you know, you start scheduling things around that, you know, to what I would eat you know? I would have just grilled chicken or a dry salad because I know what certain things feel like throwing up. And I know I'm going to throw up tomorrow 'cause I'm going to force myself to throw up. So would I rather do that with salad dressing or like a heavy, you know, sauce in my stomach or do I want to just have dry chicken in there and make it easier for myself? Because I did get to the point where, you know, I recognized that if I made myself throw up when I felt that really bad hangover in the morning it helped progress it like, a little bit more where I just kept forcing myself to throw up and just drink Gatorade or water. Eventually like enough would come out where I felt like okay. That was all just– it was all just all like the flashy lights of, you know, of the glitter and the glam that you think that you're in because you think you're somebody. You know you build yourself up to think that, you know, this is life, this is fun, this is what I'm gonna, you know, this is what I'm doing and especially like I said when, you know, at one point I was getting stuff for free. You know coke isn’t cheap: I wasn’t paying for that, you know, when you get stuff for free it's like, “Well I'm surviving,” so let's keep it going because, you know, this is fun, I’m having a great time, I’m dancing every weekend. You know, I'm meeting people. It's like this delusional thought process, but it felt real to me.You know it was real, it was my life and I loved it because there's, you know, you didn't have any consequences. So if you're having fun with no consequences then why would you want to stop? And the weird thing is too, is that when I was in AA I would hear a lot of people say that they didn’t like the taste of alcohol. I did. I very much did. I have many drinks that I can list off the back of my, you know, the back of my head that I love the taste of it. You know, aside from that feeling that you get, I love the taste of alcohol. Love it.
Um, what– so you had left your dad's house and then you had lived with your cousin for how long? You said just a couple months?
Yeah it was probably just a couple months.
And then moved in with your grandmother again?
Yeah. At some point I did.
And then how long were you there? With her?
It probably wasn't long because I moved down to North Carolina when I was– in 2010. So between the years of 2005 and 2010, um, I was in Toms River, I moved in with my cousin no, I was in– yeah then I moved in the condo with my mom and then after that back down to my grandmother’s. So in the span of five years I moved around these couple places. I'm sorry I can't get like sequences right, a lot of it is just drug and alcohol, you know, and it's hard for me to remember specifics on when I went where, I just know I went to those places.
What was the thing– so you had mentioned kind of like earlier on that you and your sister you weren't like best friends, you didn't have that kind of relationship, but she had made the suggestion of moving to North Carolina. What was the thing that– what was the thing that you would– drove you there? What brought you there?
She thought I was making bad decisions. And, um, I guess, like a part of me felt like she was right. At the time I was somewhat having an affair with a married man who was also a teacher of mine in when, you know, in the past. So I guess a part of me was like, “Yeah maybe she's right. Maybe I'll go down there.” And a part of me feels like maybe I was like, “Mmmm I could party down there.” You know? So I can't really, you know, pinpoint exactly what drove me to go down there, but I think it was also too, because like when, you know, I'm in that lifestyle, I moved around so many times in that period of time it’s like, you know, you’re party party party, you're not attached to anything you know? Um, any ex-boyfriends that you have, it's easy to go down to North Carolina and I can just run, you know? And I don't have to worry about seeing them somewhere or worry about even thinking them because I'm going to put myself in a different place, and it's just running from everything essentially where I think my sister thought maybe she could help, like, rehabilitate my mind in some way or how I was. It just intensified when I got down there. But I was like, “Why not?” You know when you have, like you said before, “What did your future look like?” Well I didn’t have one so there is nothing to hold me here, there was nothing, you know, that I was attached to. You know I didn't have a career, and I was working, I was working you know waitressing jobs, you know? And I loved it because it gave me the freedom to do what I wanted to do. It gave me just enough money to do what I needed to do. So I took her up on her offer and I moved down to North Carolina with her.
56:05
Where in North Carolina did you go?
It was, um, it was close to Raleigh, it was like in the Cary, um, area. I want to say that's where we lived.
And you lived together?
Yeah I lived with her.
And how was that, living with your sister?
I want to say it was great, she might tell you something else. [laughter] Um, I know at times she got frustrated with me. Um, I thought it was great because I– I honestly don't even remember if I paid her rent, you know, so it was like, you know, I could have maybe given her– I don't know. I don't remember really going food shopping so I don't really remember any of that. All I know is that, you know, for me it was fun, you know? She was working as a bartender at this cool bar and I eventually got a job bartending and waitressing at this one restaurant and, you know, she had already built, you know, friends there, you know, working at this job like, you know, like with their own little community type of thing, and I just kind of snuck right in there with them, you know? But I can't say– like for me it was fun, however, if you ask her she probably would say it was a nightmare. I mean I don't know if you’ll ever hear this again, but my sister actually flagged me once, and refused to serve me. Um, and I was like, so offended by that, and she put– I remember her putting a glass of water in front of me and thinking it might as well have been a gallon of water. Um, so of course there's a good alcoholic I am, I went outside to try to get other people to buy me shots, you know and drinks, and she obviously had caught onto that, so she wasn't having as good as a time as I was. I know we did have moments where we did drink together, and do, you know, party together, but it wasn't as good for her as it was for me. I know I was probably not the best roommate to have.
How long did you stay there?
I was there for, um, I was there for probably a little bit less than a year. I probably lasted there like nine months. My sister had left, actually, before I did and came back, moved back up to New Jersey, and I moved in with her ex fiancé in his house. Um, nothing sexual or anything he was always like my brother. Like– like a brother figure to me and I believe I asked her, “Do you have a problem if I move in with him?” And she was like, “No I don't care. You know it's him.” So that was comforting because, like, I knew he would protect me, you know, like, um, and I knew he was like my brother and I love him dearly and I owe him so much. You know if it wasn't for him, you know, I might be dead already. I might have died, you know, nine and a half years ago
What was the– so that was around, so that would have been around 2011 or so? 2010/2011?
Yeah I moved down there in 2010 and I came home in April of 2011.
And what brought you back to New Jersey?
Um, a combination of being involuntarily put into a rehab and my grandmother passing. So I ended up in the hospital one night, and they had like a psychologist or whoever come and ask me the questions of, you know, do you want to harm yourself or do you want to harm anybody else? And I knew all the questions to answer, how to answer them because I had been asked them before. Um, because I was a cutter as well, so I kind of knew the questions, where to go with that, but for whatever reason they didn't believe me and I was, um, I was sent straight from the hospital into a rehabilitation center. It was actually called Holly Hills. And I ended up in there–I was only in there for three days, because while I was in there my grandmother passed away in Belleville. And first of all, you know, the first thing that Brian did was call my Dad and tell him what was going on and so of course my dad flew down here, um, and the first thing my dad said to me was, “You’re coming home.” And I think at that point I was just so broken and kind of like, I didn’t know how I got there, um, all I said to him was, “Okay.” I couldn’t fight anymore. Um, one of the– one of the days that we were in the rehab they had people from AA come and talk to us and I don't remember anything that they said, I just remember sitting there crying and, and somebody giving me tissues and thinking like, “Wow something's wrong with me. Like I should not be– like something is wrong with me for me to be here.” And I remember at one point sitting on the floor in the hallway with, with the girl that I had gotten close with there and we’re sitting down on the floor, I don't even know what- probably drawing a picture because there really wasn't anything to do there and feeling like, I felt like I was Winona Ryder in Girl, Interrupted. Like the sane one that's in this institution and like I shouldn’t be here, this isn’t– no. And like I said, the AA group came in and I was crying, you know, I knew something was wrong and when my dad came, you know, and told me you're coming home, you know, I don't even remember him saying hi, he might have, he might have hugged me, but all I remember was him distinctly saying, “You’re coming home,” and I just said, “Okay” because I didn't have whatever it was in me that was fighting for this life that I had, so yeah, he had to like negotiate with them that, like, I would do some kind of outpatient therapy up here, you know, 'cause I think I was supposed to be in there for a week, but because of the circumstances, you know, he got them to let me go early under the conditions that I had to do– I had to continue rehabilitation up here. So he agreed, you know, I'd be under his custody, you know, the whole nine yards and when we left, when he– by the time he came to pick me up the day that they were releasing me, he had all my clothes in my car already. I want to say he brought me back to the house just to say goodbye to Brian, I don't know, um, and then we left and it was in the car that he told me that my grandmother passed away.
1:03:13
And was that his mom or your mom's mom?
That was my mom's mom.
Um, so you get back to Jersey, what's kind of like your next move, what do you do?
Well, when my grandmother passed away for whatever reason it was like everybody either took off or they just– we spent, like, I want to say like a week at my grandparents’ house. Like I just remember playing Twister on the floor with my cousins, it was like we all just kind of like stuck together for I would say– at least the cousins did, for like a week. My sister’s birthday, you know, was um, that following week, so we all went to Medieval Times together as a family. Um, but,I– I– I– I did end up drinking again one more time while I was up there, um, I just couldn’t handle it. You know I just couldn’t handle everything that was going on. I was just stuck in rehab and my grandmother died while I was in rehab, and of course, you know, you take the bat to yourself about it, you know? You– I could have been there for her and I wasn't, you know, because I was stuck in rehab, you know, but then, you know, I had one night at of, you know, drinking and it wasn't even a good night of drinking, I didn’t even drink that much, I just needed something to take the edge off and and I think it was some cheap wine, it wasn't even anything good. Um, and then I was living with my dad and he had me in outpatient therapy in IOP, it’s intensive outpatient program, um, and I hated it, I absolutely hated it. I didn't want to be there, I didn't like it, but they didn't push AA and I was like, I don’t know, what am I doing, you know, and it was scary and you know, I– I remember one evening, you know I said to my dad, “Will you come to this one meeting with me?” 'Cause I had the booklet it said you know, people– you know, it wasn't– they have some meetings where a family member, a friend can come with you, and so wasn't like a hundred percent anonymous, and he’s like, “Yeah, I’ll go with you.” And then a little while later I’m like, “Dad, I don't want to go anymore,” and he's like, “Okay we're in the middle of dinner.” And I was like, “Dad, I want to go.” He’s like, “You want to go?” I was like, “Yeah.” He’s like, “Shit, let me go take a shower.” So he runs in the shower and it's probably like a half an hour until the meeting starts, so I was very, like, my first meeting I was very wishy washy. Like I went from wanting to go, asking him to go with me, he’s gonna go with me, he fully supports me, to no, 'cause I got scared, 'cause, you know, it’s not something I want to do, and then to last minute let's go, I'm ready. You know, and he came to my first AA meeting with me.
And that would have been around 2000– so it was a pretty tight timeline from when your grandmother passed away?
Yeah it was probably, I would say, within the month, in April that she passed away. Um, in 2011.
And what was that– obviously not to express anything you shouldn’t be expressing from an anonymous meeting, but what was that experience like for you?
Oh I was terrified, I was terrified. It's actually quite funny because I met my future sponsor that night and she even told me she was like, “You look like a deer in headlights.” She’s like, “You came in and I could totally see you were new,” and she's like, “that's why I came to you,” you know she introduced herself, and of course I won’t say any names, or anything like that to break that initial anonymity, but she did. After it was done, all I could think was, “Get me the fuck out of here,” because, you know, here’s the thing you have to remember is that when you're drinking and using I’ll go talk to whoever the fuck I want to, and whether they want me to or not, you know, I have all this confidence. But you take away all that from me and you put me in a room with people that are sober I don't know how to be. It was again that same feeling; I don’t know how to talk, I don’t know how to walk, I don’t know how to talk to people. I don't know what I'm doing, um, so it's like a lot of social anxiety. Even now I have some social anxiety because, like, I don't want to deal with it. I don't– I don't like being around people that I don't know and that's my own thing, you know, that fear of judgment that I need to work through. But, you know, at the time it was like I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know any of these people, they just had a bunch of stuff and I don't know what it is that I'm going to do next, you know? So get me out of here and she got me before I could even stand up, and she said, “Hi my name is so and so, are you new? Blah, blah, blah,” we chatted up a little bit and in that conversation, I was like, “I think I just made a friend,” you know, and further along the line she did become my first sponsor and um– but it was scary because, not only are you going to room with people that you don't know, but you're possibly embarking on something that you don't know if you're ready for or that you want. And I really didn't know what I was getting myself into and it was terrifying.
1:08:49
And what was– so after that first meeting, what was like next, what was the next step, what did you do?
I ended up continuing going to meetings. One of the things– once the outpatient thing ended, I needed to get a job. Um or I got a job while I was doing that at Burlington Coat Factory. Terrible job. But listen, I was told I needed to get a job, so, you know, and not just, you know, do this nonsense, you know, of, you know, the outpatient stuff. It’s probably not nonsense. It probably works for some people, I just wasn't having it. Like, um, so I apologize to anyone in that field, but at the time I was young and you’re taking away what I love; you’re taking away my life. And, you know, it wasn't something that I wasn't necessarily ready for, however, after the first meeting I was like you know what? Maybe I'll go again, you know, my dad would ask me to check in, so, “Are you going to look for another meeting? What are you going to do?” And he kind of guided me a little bit, pushed me a little bit and I did. I started going, you know, and one of the big things is ninety meetings in ninety days and I get why they say that. Because those are hard. I remember day thirty, driving home hysterically crying, driving past a bar thinking, “I just want to pull in, I just want to pull in.” And I called my sponsor, I was hysterical, she’s like, “Where are you?” I’m like, “I’m home, now.” And she’s like, “Well you made it home.” And I’m like, “But this is not where I want to be!” you know, and– but she stayed on the phone with me until I was calm enough to think, you know what? It was a bad day thirty, but you know what? I'm going to go in my room and I'm going to bed. I’m going to bed, you know, and it was so important to have that support at that time, and I understand why they say the ninety meetings in ninety days because every day is a struggle. Even now sometimes it's a struggle, you know? But it's like, you know, in that time you're like a baby and, you know, it was– it was like I was crawling, you know, I didn't know how to talk to people. People come up to me and they’re like, “Hi,” and I'm like, “Hi,” I didn't know how to go– go beyond that to have a conversation, you know, like a dialogue with somebody. You know, and I didn't know what to talk about because I never talked about anything of importance before, you know, there was nothing educational that, you know, that I was learning, there was nothing of importance in my life, you know, except what drinks are we having next, or what drugs can we get for tomorrow. So it was like, you know, it was definitely like a lot of meetings, and it was you know a lot of trying to learn how to be a human being, you know, and then, you know, eventually going through the steps and eventually finding out, you know, you also question, am I really an alcoholic, am I really a drug addict? ‘Cause when you think about it, was I that bad, and it’s the alcoholism talking because when I look back on it, like well if I was able to control myself I would have. You know, like when was the last time I was able to sit down at dinner and have one drink? I never did. You know, could I do that now? No, but there's a part of you that is still holding on to that like I don't have a problem. So it’s like that internal struggle of like where are you? Where do you want your life to go? And it’s like you're fooling yourself into going back into old habits.
What was the– do you think– I’m trying to think of a way to phrase it, was there kind of like a turning point for you? Like, what was like the– was it within that ninety days? Was it kind of like, “Oh I’m– I'm going to stick with this, or this is the direction I'm going to go in?” Like you know what was the– was it– was it overall during that time? Was there a specific moment of transition where you felt like I’ve arrived at a new place?
I think– my goal in that first short period of time was like, let me just make it to a year and then let me decide, like, you know, then, you know, then maybe after I get a year sober I can start drinking again, you know? Um, and throughout that time period, I guess that's when, you know, I stopped thinking like that. Where, you know, I was listening to a lot of people and then, you know, I got to the point in some meetings where I was comfortable enough to speak for myself and, you know, associating with other people, and I was like wow, like it's not just me, you know? And if this person is doing this for twenty five years and they're happy as fuck, like I want to be happy. Like, how do I do that because my only happiness came from the drinking and the drugs. Um, so at one point where I'm like you know what? I have the option to drink after I make it a year, but by the time that you came up that wasn't a thought anymore. So you know through that time period, I think that’s when it just kind of dissolved itself.
1:14:11
How long did you stay living with your dad?
I'm thinking. For a long time. I moved out only maybe two years ago.
Okay.
Um, because I struggled with finding my way. You know, you have to remember is that, you know, like we talked about earlier, is that there was never a future, there was never a career, there was never that thought process of what do you want to be when you grow up. Well who cares? You know, like I’m going to be me. Um, so you know I bounced around in different jobs, you know, and trying to find my way, and, you know, I never really found anywhere, you know, there was only one place that I was actually like really happy, um, and I left there, you know, because something that happened and I couldn’t get past it, and I couldn’t be there anymore. So, you know, it took me a while to figure out where I want to be and now I'm at the place where I want to be. However, I’m going back to college now to get even further.
What was the– so that question earlier about was there a plan, right did you have a plan and you’re like, “No there’s no plan.” At what point in your life in the recent history did you go, “Oh that's when I started making plans.”
Probably within, I would say honestly, probably within the last year-and-a-half, two years. I knew at some point I was like, you know, what I need to go to school I need to go to college. So I bought a laptop, I bought a Macbook thinking, you know, what I'm going to need this I just need to figure out what it is that I want to do, you know? And, um, by happen– by whatever, you know, I fell into the job I’m at now. And I'm like yeah this is– this is where I want to be, this is where I want to go and this is how I need to pursue my future.
And what is that?
I work in a school for kids with autism and multiple disabilities and my end goal is to be a behaviorist.
I don’t mean to– how did you make your way into that? Did you fall into it? Was it something–
I feel like it’s a weird, strange strain of events. I was working in an office, it was a pediatric office and what we did was– it wasn’t a doctor’s office, it was PT, OT, speech, and feeding therapy for kids. And, you know, I had always struggled with, you know, having an office job versus, you know, being up and moving around, you know? I worked in an ER once and I loved it. And, you know, I love being up and moving around but there's so much bad that comes– there’s so much stuff that you see that’s so hard to come back from and the hours were terrible, you know? You go back and forth especially, you know, as an adult it's like, you know, I want the nine-to-five job but I don't want to sit in an office, you know? And– and I was at my last job, you know, working in this office, you know, I did a good job, you know, I knew what I was doing, you know, but it just wasn’t enough. It just– I understand some people can sit in an office and that's a wonderful thing, but not everything is for everyone. And I just– I just wasn't happy and I just was more miserable and miserable 'cause it was so stagnant, and, um, there was a girl that was an aide there and she was talking about, you know, like NJschooljobs.com and, you know, how, you know, her– her other, you know, besides from like interning there or whatever you call it, that was her job. She was an aide at a school and I was like, “Well that kinda sounds fun.” And I’m like, “Let me look into that.” And I was like school hours and you get summers off, like that sounds like a good time, you know? And so I started applying for jobs and, you know, nothing was coming through, you know, six months later nothing was coming through, you know, and I would frequently talk to her, you know, and, you know, she would like tell me, “Just keep trying, just keep trying.” And until I was talking to a friend of mine and I started to become an RBT, a behavioral tech, where you go into the child’s home and you work on programs there. And as soon as I got the phone call that I got that job, um, less than a week later I had got– er, I had gotten an email saying that you know they– this one school wanted to do, like, an interview with me if I can email them back just make sure they have my right information, and I put it off for, you know, I put it off thinking I had so much to do for this new job, like I’ll get to it when I get to this email. Then, you know, a couple days later, I get a phone call from them. And by the person's name I was like, “Oh that’s the same person that sent me the email that I put off.” And they’re like, “Well we have a school– you know, a job at a school and we would like to do a phone interview and then an in person interview with you, you know, if it gets that far. And, you know, it's a school for kids with autism, multiple disabilities.” And I was like, “What? Like this is my jam.” And I was like, “Yeah absolutely.” So I ended up falling upon two jobs at one time, and you know lucky for me at the time they both coordinated with each other, you know, and when I went in for the interview at my job, I interviewed with the vice principal and it wasn't– it didn’t feel like an interview it was like a dialogue. It was like I was talking to a friend and she completely got me. She understood me. In the past I had worked with individuals with developmental disabilities. Adults. And that was the job that I love, and that’s the job that I wholeheartedly, like, it just, it’s everything so when I was talking to her, and she got me, and it was just like, it was like– it was like, I– I have to have this job. Um, the next day I got a call from HR saying that they wanted to hire me and I was like through the roof. And here I am now, and, you know, I know I love what I'm doing and, you know, at the end of this semester I'll be certified to be a substitute teacher. Um, but I don't want to be in this job in twenty years and, you know, still getting my ass kicked every day and getting smacked across the face and, you know, I want to have a plan, you know, because I love my kids, I love them dearly, but I don’t want to be of a certain age and not be able to handle it.
1:21:23
So when did you– when did you get that job, when did you go into that position? In September?
Last September.
So you had a few months before–
Before we all shut down. So now I'm running my classroom through the internet.
So what is the– what's what's the trajectory in terms of like the training you have to do? So you got the first job which was kind of like in home, did you have to do specific training in order to prepare for that?
Yeah, I had to do forty hours of training. And if I did it within a two week period, I got a bonus. So it was cramming, it was just like cramming every single day I was on my laptop just studying for this, um, yeah it was forty hours and, you know, I was able to get through it. I had to get CPR certified and I had already been, but I renewed it online the last time. Like for the last several jobs that I've had, I've always had to be CPR certified. But the last time that I re-certed myself, I did it online while I was getting tattooed [laughter] if you could believe it. I was just like laying there on the table with my arm out and my other arm, you know, answering all the questions, and uh, but they wouldn't take that, like I had to do it in person as a new– as a new employee. Um so I had to do that, I had to get fingerprinted because you are going into other people's homes, so I had to have a clean driving– like of the past so many years, or what have you, so I had to have proof of that. So yeah it was a decent amount of training for the RBT. But for school I had very little training I had to do, and I think they hired me based around my background experience and kind of what I already knew and what I was already doing. Like, I already was getting my CPR cert, like, I already have that for my other job, so we're good there, so anything I needed I already had under my belt.
So then what was the– what's the process, I mean you said you're in school now, so like what is the– you get that job, you go into that position, so I'm unfamiliar with the field a little bit, so then what was the thing to be like okay now this is the next stage that I want to hit and this is what I have to do in order to get there?
So I– I was hired as a teacher's aide and I love it however it's kind of funny 'cause if you go into any of our classrooms, it's hard to figure out who the teacher is 'cause we’re all each other’s support system, you know, we all do have like the same roles in the sense of, you know, teaching the kids, you know, we all, you know, you're in a classroom and, you know, you rotate kids. Um, and when a behavior goes down, any of the rooms I've been in they’re all– we’re all on it and it’s pretty incredible how everything kind of worked out, you know, like they’re a huge support system. But while I was working, you know, but while I’m at my job, you know, I love it, but then I'm– I'm also looking at other people. You know, I’m observing how other people are within the school and I do see some individuals who are at a certain age where you can see they’ve been there too long and they’re not a hundred percent happy with their job, and I’ve seen that in other jobs. Um, but I love my kids, you know, and then I have to go back and think about it, you know, on my salary, you know, can I build a future that I want to build? No, I can’t. So I was already, you know, toying with, you know, I need to go back to school. Now I need to figure out what it is that I want to do. So I applied for MCC, you know, because I'm not trying to get– I'm not trying to pay, you know, thousand upon thousands of dollars, I'm too old for that, you know, I don't– I don't need that red “R” on the back of my car, I just need an education, so I applied for MCC, I got in and I mean, obviously. And then I was like, “Well maybe I'll go down the teachers route,” you know, and then I’m like “I really don't want to be a teacher,” you know, but they still like gave me, like, the educational program just to get me in there, type of thing, and after talking to the educational advisor, I’m like, “I don’t want to do this, this isn’t what I want to do.” You know, it had been suggested to me, you know, by other people like, “Why don't you just be a behaviorist, like, you know, like you taught yourself in the past how to deal with your guys’ behaviors, you know, like you could do this.” And I’m like, “Mmm, like maybe,” do I want to be a case manager, do I want to be a behaviorist, and I ended up talking to one of our behaviorists at school and she helped guide me through the process. Um, apparently it’s going to be a long education, but I'm okay with that, I'm going to take my time. I’m just focusing on right now, I just need to get my associate’s, you know? And I'm almost starting from scratch, like I said, I got that credit from psychology in college that I don't remember but guess what? I got it. I don’t need to take it again now. So that kind of worked in my favor that I got it together for one class. Um, but, I just know it's going to be a long process, but for right now I'm just focusing on, you know, what I need to do right now and not projecting to much, 'cause I can overthink and overwhelm myself very easily and I'm trying not to worry about the fact that I'm 35 years old and just going back to school now, 'cause that was something that was heavy on me as well, because it’s– you know, when am I going to graduate? When I’m forty? But the thing is is that when I'm forty I don't want to look back and thinking well I could have graduated by now but I never started, so that's the way I'm trying to, like, adjust my thought processes that, you know, I'm never going to get there if I never start. I don’t want to be forty and be like, “I’m going to start college now because I didn’t do it five years ago when I was going to.”
1:27:33
One of the things that you had mentioned was, kind of like, where you are now on the journey of also thinking back about the trauma from when you were thirteen. Uh, what was the journey for you to– for you to, kind of like, seek new help or seek a way to be able to talk to someone about that specific thing? What was that?
Yeah that was traumatic in itself getting me there. But throughout, since it happened, um, I think I just kind of pushed it down to the point where I– as my therapist had once said, I just became disassociated with it. Um, I knew that it happened to me but, like, I don't feel it emotionally. So anytime, like, I did talk to somebody about it, or try to relate to somebody, which wasn't often but it was very easy for me to just talk about it nonchalantly and, you know, it be okay. However over the past couple years I've had these triggers, and some of them are small, some of them are a little bit bigger, some of them, you know, I might be over in an hour, some a couple hours, maybe a couple of days, but I guess it was like maybe, almost two years ago now, there was like a big thing going on with social media with a famous case that was going on and there were a lot of things that were said by our president ,and that really, really, really upset me. So much that it, like, triggered me into a tailspin of where, um, we talked about in our pre interview where I couldn’t sleep. I remember distinctly putting on Modern Family thinking it's a comedy, you know, it'll kind of relax me, make me think of something else and, you know, I’ll laugh. I couldn’t focus on anything they were saying.
Um, I just remember continuously rewinding it, rewinding the same two minutes, every two minutes. Going back and I couldn’t get through it. And I’m sitting there crying, I’m trying to focus on this show that– that's supposed to make me laugh and I couldn’t because I was so distraught over, you know, you know, what this power figure, you know, this person that, you know, so many people look up to and thinking how fucked up it is, and how wrong it is, and it directly affecting me emotionally to the point where I’m crying and I’m shaking. So I went downstairs into my kitchen and I called my sister and I was hysterical crying and I was like, “Why?” You know, like, I forget exactly how the conversation went, but I remember being so angry and so upset and I was just crying and she was like, “Amanda, why don’t you write down your feelings and write down, you know, write down your story, just for you.” And I was like, “Okay.” So, you know, it was probably twelve o’clock at night, almost twelve thirty I want to say, and by one a.m. I had written like this, um, two, it might have been one or two pages of, you know, me talking about my truth and how you can't just, like, pretty much my whole message was that, like, you have no right. You have no right. Because you don't know. Because, like I was saying before, it's like you don't understand, like, when something like that happens to you, you don't remember things, you forget things or you,um, your mind manipulates it to make you think that maybe you're lying about it, but that doesn't mean it didn’t happen. So when other people come in and they want it– they want to judge well, “How do you not remember? How do you not think?” Or making a joke out of you, like, it's not okay. It's not. Um, because since that happened to me, I’ve always lived by “You never know what you're going to do in any given situation unless you're put in that situation.” I've always believed that since that happened because, like I said before, you know, I always thought I would fight and I didn’t. I froze. But for someone that so many people look up to, and I don’t understand why they do, to make fun and try to, um, disregard and make someone else look less valid, because why? Because you're a man? Because you think you know everything? Because you think you're better than? No you don't– you don't know– you don't know what it's like. You don't know how unbelievably creative your mind is when it needs to fight for you when you can't fight for yourself. So, so I wrote down, you know, I went through and how, you know, just to be kind because you don't know. You don't know what it's like, and you don't know what it feels like, you don't know what the person is going through and, yes, you can try to empathize and you can to try to understand and that's amazing and that’s wonderful but you don't know how you're going to react to anything, you know, you would like to think– like, that's what I always say, “Well I would like to think I would do this, and I would stand up, you know, for somebody else,” which I do a lot now, you know, I find it, like, my personal goal to make sure, like, people are doing the right thing, which, you know, I've been told is probably not the best at times, because, you know, I forget, you know, the element of surprise, we don't know how other people are going to react. Um, so I need to work on keeping my mouth shut sometimes, but you don't ever know. You don't know what you're going to do, never mind the fact that you don't know how your body is going to defend itself or your mind, you know, and so for someone to come in there on national television and pretty much try to, you know, degrade and put down a woman, you know, because she didn't remember or whatever the case might have been at the time, um, I was just so bothered by it. So I wrote this thing, sorry for rambling, um, I wrote this thing and I ended up– and I don't know why, I don't know why I did this, but I posted it on social media. Um, and looking back now, like, I have no idea what drove me to do that. I don’t know why because I immediately– after I did that, I felt better, like, I felt like, “Huh.” You know, I could breathe again. You know, I stopped crying. I cried a little bit but then I was like, “Oh,okay.” And I went to bed and I woke up thinking, “Oh my God what did I just do?” I have friends on there, I have family members who don't know about what happened, I have coworkers on there, and oh my God how are my coworkers going to react because, you know, for me at least, you know, and this is the worst part about me is that if this is somebody else telling me, I would be your biggest fan and I would be supporting you a hundred percent. “No you don't have to feel this way, you should feel empowered, blah, blah, blah.” But for me, like, it still comes with that shame or that embarrassment, and I know I didn’t do anything wrong. But it doesn't matter. In my own head it’s like– it’s like this embarrassing thing that happened to you. And yeah it happened to me, but for whatever reason I hold that, like, shame or like I’m supposed to be less than or embarrassed by it, but I don't know why. And, you know, I had a bunch of people commenting on it and liking it, and loving it and and at one point it almost made it worse because every time I– I– I read you’re so brave it just– it just made me more upset because, no, I don't feel brave. Why? Because I was honest? Like, that's not brave. You know, you're strong. No I'm not. Like that doesn't make me strong, you know, at the time I thought if I was strong I would have fought back, you know, and it wasn't until therapy where, you know, I learned, let’s look at it this way: if I did fight back, you know, we don't know what could have happened, you know, I could have fought back or said something and then he would have freaked out and left.
1:36:38
Or what if something worse happened, you know, so I can't really look at, you know, I didn't fight for myself, it's just that, it's what I needed to do in the moment to save myself. So when all these people are telling me how brave and strong you are blah blah blah, you know, it felt like a slap in the face. Because I’m not the only one. I’m one person. One of hundreds of thousands of millions of people that it happens to every single day and I'm just one person. And, you know, that also came with the embarrassment, you know, you know, going to the Center for Empowerment and reassociating myself with, you know, what happened to me. Um, came with the embarrassment or the same that, you know, the Me Too movement happened and I wasn't even a part of it. I was completely like, “Go you! That's awesome for you guys.” I am you guys. Like, you’re me. Like, I should have been a part of that. I should have been there, I should have done something, you know? But I was completely– again, I know what happened to me, I remember exactly in detail what happened, but for whatever reason I just completely separated myself from it. So when the Me Too movement was going on, I was nowhere, I wasn't shouting, I wasn't, you know, telling my story. I wasn’t being brave. I was like, “Y’all are doing a great job.” And that was it. I was so– I have to kind of let go of that and understand that was the place I was in then and recognize where I am now. Um, that I just wasn't ready, you know, I wasn't there yet. On my journey I wasn't there, you know, however my journey has led me to talking with you because, you know, not only is this for you but I feel like a part of this selfishness is that this is also for me too. Because, yes, this is my truth, 'cause, like, part of me sometimes cringes when I say my story, because it almost sounds like it’s made up, so that's why I like to say my truth. Because it’s me, it’s what happened to me, but selfishly it's like I'm talking to you in a sense of my own healing journey, you know, I'm giving you the opportunity to read every chapter and every word of my book that I can give you without hesitation. And that’s why when we had talked previously you asked me, “Is there anything you don’t want me to ask?” “No. Ask me.” Ask me what you need to ask me because it's not just for you. You know, selfishly it is for me and I guess in some kind of hopes, it's like maybe if somebody can understand and relate to anything that I'm saying, maybe it'll help them as well. And I’ll never know about that but at least, for me, it might help me in the back of my mind knowing that I'm doing something for someone else while I’m selfishly doing it for myself. But essentially to get back to– again I apologize for continually rambling, but what led me to the center was that whole situation. And once my sister saw me, like, seriously break down to uncontrollable, you know, passion of crying and shaking and, you know, 'cause she could hear it in my voice, that’s when she told me, “Amanda, you need to get help.” She’s like, “You can't keep on going through these triggers and pushing them aside just because they last, you know, they might last a little bit longer one time than the other, but it’s still there.” So I’m not sure if it was through something that she sent me or it was a Google search that I did, but I found the center and I was like, “Well, it's Middlesex County, you know, and you know it's for Middlesex residents I think and, you know, let me just give it a shot and see what happens.” You know, and one of the big things at the time, you know, is how am I going to pay for this, you know, I was working in the hospital and I don't have insurance, you know? So one of the things was that I wouldn't have to pay for it so I was like, “Well I don't have the excuse that I can't afford it, I can't use that excuse now.” You know? 'Cause if you go to any special therapist you’re paying God knows how much money per session. I can’t afford that. But now I don't have it because you're handing me a healing process on a platter you do not have an excuse for it now Amanda, what are you going to do now? What are you going to do? You have to move forward, you have to help yourself because nobody else is going to do it for you. Nobody else is going to heal you. Nobody else is going to– I hate saying it– fix you. And I am saying fix you, you know why? Because I’ve been broken. I’ve been broken my whole life because of one man. One person broke me, and I’m still trying to put the pieces back together, and it still affects me to this day. And I’ve learned a lot since I’ve gone to the center and I still have a long way to go. I think, you know, and just as individuals, we’re always going to learn, you know, about ourselves, there’s always room for growth, I just have a lot more room because of the trauma that I’ve been through and the self destruction that I’ve done to myself, you know? I’m like a byproduct of my own trauma and I just went with it. And I just let it continue for twenty years until I finally decided that I needed– I finally needed to face it. 'Cause I always thought, “It doesn’t affect me.” I wake up in the morning, I go to work, I'm functional, you know, I'm sober, I'm clean now, you know, I’m fine, but I wasn’t fine.
1:42:32
Thank you for sharing all of that. Um, one of the questions that I think you’ve– you’ve done a really incredible job of kind of creating a perspective of it– creating how to put into context is how I would normally say it, and I was curious if there was anything that you would ask yourself, like, if you were conducting the interview, anything that you would have either assumed that I would have asked you that I haven’t asked you yet, or a question that you would ask yourself if you were in this context if you were the interviewer.
I didn’t even think of that. [laughter] I don’t know, I guess, I guess it would be like what I’ve– I guess I would have expected, like, a little bit more of the the byproduct of what happened to me, like the trauma, you know, like what have I learned through the center, like what has the center provided me. Um, which is everything, you know, not only do they do one-on-one sessions, but they do group therapy sessions, they do workshops of all different kinds, and I’ve attended quite a few of them, 'cause when I first started, I just– anything you can hand to me I was digging into because, you know, I didn't know what was going to work for me, you know, I didn't know what my healing process was going to look like. Um, all I've known for my past is that I hate going to therapy, you know, it was never something that I enjoyed doing, you know, and maybe because I was being forced to go, or maybe I just didn't have the right therapist that was able to have the right dialogue with me, or give me the right feedback. So when I went to the center, I met with Sam, she was the one who did my intake and she is the sweetest, most kindest person to do an intake with you because she just gives off this energy of like it's a safe place. Because it’s fucking scary when you finally realize like you have all this stuff inside and like you need help. It’s scary going to get that– to take that step. So when you go into the space you don't know what to expect and, you know, she just makes you feel comfortable, she makes you feel safe, and, you know, she tells you right off the bat that you don't have to answer anything you're not comfortable answering, you know, and it was very brief but, you know, it wasn’t very invasive. It’s just like how can we help you, and one of the things was, she asked me, would you want to do one-on-one, group therapy?
1:45:17
And that’s why I said, I told them, I don’t know, I don't know what's going to help me, you know, so I just took everything that she had to throw at me, you know? I started doing all the one-on-one sessions, you know, I did groups, I did a sewing group, a painting group, I’ve done quilting group, which, um, you know, I've done so many groups within it, you know, like a clay and collage group I did, you know, and we’ve done some pretty amazing stuff and, you know, they, you know, I love the art through healing because, you know, a part of me feels like I am that creative person that needs that outlet, like I'm not– I don’t– I'm not a master of any arts but I like to do them all, and I can do them okay. Like I'm alright. Like I like to paint, I'm not great, I’m not Picasso, but I’ll look at it and wow, that’s not bad, but it's all part of, like, the healing process. And even when we were doing our quilting group, you know, down to the very patterns that we picked, it was all about, you know, it was all about the healing process. So it's not just– you're not just going into these groups just playing, you know, there's– there's a meaning behind it, you know, there’s talk behind it, you know, going through the healing through arts. But they also hold these workshops, they did one on– I forget what the name of it was, but a part of it was like how your brain works and stuff like that and that's when I learned about freeze. Um, you know everybody says fight or flight. And I always felt like I didn't do any of that, like I didn’t fight, I didn’t flight, so when they were doing this one workshop, they talked about these three where it’s fight, flight, or freeze and that's when I was like, “Oh my God, like, it's not just me then.” You know, I'm not the only one and– and– and for a moment I think I teared up because it was like, I feel validated like I'm not the only one. So you know within that workshop it was like I– like I fit somewhere, like, you know what I mean? And people understand me. There’s science behind it. I’m not defective, you know? I was doing what I needed to do, you know, and I shouldn’t feel ashamed for that. Another thing I learned in one of the workshops was that, you know, I do suffer from PTSD. Um, I would have never in my wildest dreams would have said that or thought to say that, you know, I would have been like, “No Amanda, like you're going a little extreme, let’s not be overdramatic.” You know, because– and social media, any kind of media, you know, we hear PTSD all the time, you know, um, but it’s always associated with veterans, you know, that’s like the big thing. So I grow up with that core belief that, um, PTSD is for the military or veterans. They suffer from that kind of stuff because they are really going through a traumatic experience. However, you know, through one of the workshops, they’re listing the symptoms and the secondary symptoms and I looked at it and I looked at it and I started crying and getting emotional because it's like it was me on a piece of paper, you know, it was hard. It was hard to see that. It was hard to recognize that, oh my goodness, I went through a traumatic experience and I suffer. I've been suffering with PTSD my whole life and I just thought that was just how I am. But it's not. Because throughout the process for me going to the Center for Empowerment, I've learned that a lot of– a lot of the reasons why I am who I am or my characteristics about me, my trust issues all stem from this one– one moment in time.
1:49:26
All these ugly things that I don't like about myself, you know, the anger issues that have gotten so much better through my time with the Center stems from that. In the beginning we were starting to unpeel and it didn’t make sense to me and all of a sudden it just clicked. Oh my goodness, like, wow all these things that are coming up as– as, you know, that I feel like are defaults of mine as an adult is stemming from this one thing that happened to me when I was thirteen years old. Even my therapist at one point described me as like a dog in that sitting position where your head’s just, like, constantly looking around like you’re on guard, 'cause I’m constantly, like, waiting– I’m always on the defense. Always on the defense, waiting for someone to come at me so I can attack them first. And that’s the way I’ve always been but only after my abuse happened. You know, before that, you know, you're a kid, you’re living life, you know, and– and that's the one thing that bothers me sometimes, you know, people say that could never happen to me. Actually, yeah it can. And it could happen from the people that you wouldn’t suspect it. And that’s why I feel like you never really know somebody. You never really truly know somebody. And I know that's such a negative way of looking, but I feel it so wholeheartedly and, yes, it’s something I have to work on, it's just that when you go through something that's so life-changing in a negative way, you know, and as an adult looking back at all these things that are associated with it, it’s hard. It is really difficult and it's like you have to kind of, you know, figure everything out and really learn, you know, how to cope with all this because it’ll just destroy you. You know, there’s no form of happiness in my life until I go through this. Until I start healing from it. Until I start working it, until I start using the tools that I have to deal with things on a daily basis. You know I scare easily and apparently that's a secondary symptom of PTSD, and it's not just, you know, a simple, you know, it is, you know, you walk around the corner and you come in front of me, I’m jumping and you know where people are constantly apologizing to me. And I’m like, “Don't worry it happens all the time.” Well there's a reason for it. Um, recently a situation happened where I was at home listening to a podcast while I was watering my plants, and my boyfriend came home early and I forgot what happened. He told me I charged for the door, and I was scared. For over an hour I was shaking because I was so scared, um, 'cause I just wasn't expecting, you know, and it's like I've learned all these things about me are a byproduct of what happened to me, and now that I'm aware it’s how do I navigate through this, and how do I continue my healing process, and how do use these tools to live a productive life and to be happy, and to not let what happened to me hold me down anymore as a person. You know, I don’t want to just float around, I don't want to just exist, I want to live, I want to thrive, you know? I don't want to be stagnant in my own life, I don’t want to be a hindrance in my own happiness.
I feel as if that's a pretty hopeful, philosophic way to, you know, kind of wrap up the interview. What I'm going to do is I'm just going to stop recording right now, and then we can chat through a few things.