Dr. Roden is a History Professor at Rutgers and was very influential in starting the Mountainview Education Project for individuals who were previously incarcerated. He is very passionate about education being a pathway to a better quality of life.

ANNOTATIONS

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TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by John Keller

New Brunswick, New Jersey

August 21, 2019

Transcription by Chrissy Briskin

00:00

Great, so this is John Keller, with coLAB Arts and the Oral History Archive.  It is August 21, 2019 a little after seven o’clock in the evening and we are here with–

Donald Roden

Fantastic, um, and we’re meeting at your office here at Rutgers University. Thank you so much for doing this, again. In true fashion, can we start at the beginning? Where were you born?

So I was born in Evanston, Illinois and then grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in the northern suburb of Shorewood and, um, graduated from high school in 1963 and then went to the University of Wisconsin.

And what did you study there?

I studied Japanese history, actually, that’s what I got my graduate degree in.

What interested you in Japanese history? What brought you there?

I was an exchange student to Japan in the summer of ‘62, high school exchange so I, uh, AFS, American Field Student, just three months there and that was it, and so I, um, I completed my graduate school work in the fall of 1975 and that’s when I started at Rutgers. I’ve been here since the fall of 1975.

And what was it like when you first came to Rutgers?

Well, I came to Rutgers College and we were– each college was autonomous in the seventies, uh, and, um, um, the School of Arts and Sciences, so there were multiple history departments, there was one at Livingston, one at Douglass, one at University College, so that system was overhauled in the 1980’s into one university which makes very good sense. So, but–

What was your perspective on the students when you first started teaching?

When I started teaching my, uh, I’ve always been impressed by the students here at Rutgers, they were very engaged, uh, I uh, I– I– fascinated to learn about Japan, and always very curious, and good humor too. Very good humor.

Were you in terms of, like, your academic and teaching work, were you always kind of like equal parts doing research as well as being in a classroom? Did you have a preference for one over the other?

I’ve always had a preference for teaching. I enjoy it very much. I’ve done some research on the history of education in Japan, um, particularly elite education before the war, but, uh, I’ve– I’ve always enjoyed teaching, and I’ve done team teaching here in our department. Um, which I’ve enjoyed very much.

Um, when– we’re obviously talking about making our way to a specific project which is the NJ-STEP, but also education of individuals who have either been incarcerated or currently are incarcerated. Did you ever have an experience in your early teaching career in which you were teaching what might be deemed a nontraditional group of students or were they mostly– when did you first become aware I guess of like alternative ways to provide an education to groups?

So one of the marvelous things about Rutgers is that it is a diverse university and, uh, they’ve always been open to nontraditional students, when I first came here we had a University College, and most classes were at night, and there was a wide variety of students, some of them older, so I was aware of that from the beginning, but specifically my interest in education within carceral institutions, that didn’t come until much later. My mother in Milwaukee used to, uh, she was– she worked for, she was a volunteer, a literacy volunteer and she, I think she visited halfway houses as well as– and churches in Milwaukee, so her work was an inspiration, and after she died in 2001, the next spring I visited the Mountainview Youth Facility and they encouraged me to be a volunteer. I had gone to Jamesburg once or twice in the nineties, I remember that now, uh, and, uh, how that came about, and I talked with students there on two or three occasions.  That had occurred, but that did not evolve into any program, and, uh, but when I visited Mountainview in May of 2002, I met with the head of education and they said, “Why don’t you become a volunteer?” And, uh, and provide tutoring for some of our students who are preparing for their GEDs and also students in basic education and I started doing that once a week.

6:27

How did that connection get made? How did you– so for the Jamesburg experience, was kind of a separate experience.

Right, that was separate. Mountainview is geographic, it’s geographic, it’s the closest facility to where we live in Hillsborough, it’s just down Highway 22, so it was geographic and I just decided. I called and I drove there and, uh, and that’s– and then I started going on Wednesdays. I would go to the facilities, uh, once a week, I would spend the whole day and they had shifts of students who would come in and out and the teachers, the high school teachers in the facility, would then designate, “We want you to work with Mr. Roden,” it was largely reading, sometimes in small groups. So I was really blessed that the teachers embraced me and were happy to have, because you know it adds to their burdens in some way. Not all teachers want other people in their classes, you’re exposed to you know, ah, what you’re doing and so forth. [laughter] So I was blessed we would have lunch together and– so that started in 2002, and for about two years I just was concentrating on that. I wasn’t aware that there was a college program going on simultaneously in the facility because that’s a different group of students and, uh, but by the spring of 2004, I was well aware that students were taking college courses from Union County Community College under a rubric of a program called Project Inside. And Project Inside allowed community colleges to deliver courses to students who were under the age of 26 or 25. There was an age requirement. They were reaching out to the youth facilities, not the adult prisons. NJ-STEP got, you know, got rid of that thank goodness, reaches out to everyone. I don’t know why the age requirement was imposed; it was a federal plan. But, so we have three youth facilities: Garden State, Mountainview, and Wagner, all of them have Project Inside programs, and I work with the high school/college program coordinator at Mountainview, and I said, “Let’s see if we can recruit some of your students to Rutgers.” They would not be able to start until, um, they were out of custody, but through negotiations with the Department of Corrections, which was very helpful, um, we came up with an agreement that they could begin their Rutgers career while at halfway houses. That’s, um, and then, I presented the proposal to Rutgers. I wrote up a statement, we called it– I don’t know what we called it, The College Initiative or we called it The Mountainview Project.

10:42

Where did you find support within the university? Or were there–

Well within this department, huge support. And in this department in December of 2004, actually voted to support this, and so that was it, but there was support from Dick McCormick who was the president of Rutgers, uh, Phil Furmanski, from the top on down. I was terribly fortunate, because it’s a little unusual, uh, a program like this one might think would come out of the School of Criminal Justice, or Sociology, or something, and so– but– but– but these units all came on board very quickly and eventually I withdrew and they became important. So we had tremendous support, it was agreed from the beginning that the students should go to University College which had nontraditional students, which fit under their rubric. So the first student who entered Rutgers in September of 2005, entered University College. Um, and–

That was pretty fast–

Things moved quickly. I, uh, and then the next year, 2006, four students joined the first student, and the numbers increased. Initially they came exclusively, the first two, three years, exclusively from Mountainview, and then, um, we began to recruit from the other two youth correctional facilities and from the women’s facility, Edna Mahan, although there again, we had the age restriction and Edna Mahan, many are older, but we started with younger women at Edna Mahan. And so by 2008 we were drawing from Edna Mahan I think, and Garden State. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, and that’s how it got started [laughter]. And the early students–

What was kind of the early iteration of that program? What was the experience like? What was the outreach like in the prison? What was the point of contact, how did students get referred to it and what was the transition as they were moving in to?

The point of contact was that they had a college program that started before I ever stepped foot–

Yeah.

Called Project Inside and, uh, in the facilities, and they delivered community college classes under the rubric of small business management, so the curriculum was rather restricted initially, uh, courses in marketing, I remember, and courses in business management, but, uh, but that– that curriculum started to expand. So the point of contact are the students who are in that college program. And they’re recruited. They have to have a GED or a high school diploma and those students are recruited within each facility by the high school teachers. That was how it started and I think that, uh, at Mountainview there were about twenty students. In Yardville there was a larger pool, and I would visit the facility, and the college program advisor would bring those students down to see me. And those students also participated in the summer African American History course, which is put on by my colleagues in this department. The Rutgers Admissions wanted a better, more developed humanities, and science math curriculum, and that was one step in that direction to, uh, and serendipitously at the same time I started in at Mountainview, certainly by 2005, 2004, Princeton began the Princeton University Prison Teaching Initiative: PTI, I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned that. And they were supplementing the program inside classes, doing much more than I was doing, I was doing one class. They had a presence in three facilities: Garden State, Wagner, and Edna Mahan, and they were delivering courses in humanities and math/science. And they were taught by Princeton graduate students, and the department that led this effort was the Department of Astrophysics and Princeton Professor Jill Knapp who is a legend. She has devoted herself to prison education. So, uh, but by 2000, I don’t know the date, ‘08 or ‘09, Jill and I were linked and, uh, and our colleagues at Princeton helped with the recruiting of students to Rutgers. It was not, we’ve always felt that the State University should have the primary responsibility, um, admission to Princeton, and especially fifteen years ago was a complicated matter involving SAT scores and all kinds of things, and we thought, always our attention was there, uh, today my understanding is Princeton is looking at nontraditional, but at that time Princeton was not interested in transitioning people from community colleges into– they had students from Andover and Exeter, but the faculty wanted to do more and I could not. They were huge supporters ‘cause they strengthened the curriculum of the students. So, um, um, so and that helped. And then we expanded and drew on students from the other youth correctional facilities where Princeton had already had a foothold and that was, so that helped enormously. And all of this was getting oh by 2010, 2011. And Chris was working with me at Mountainview. I believe by 2007 we had met, certainly 2008, he was very much involved, and he was working essentially as a volunteer because he was working for student support services, and then what he was doing with me was not part of his job description, which I very much appreciated and, huge help from EOF. Deans Wally Torian and Vicki Brooks from the beginning, I mean Dean Brooks, Dean Torian gave the graduation speech at Mountainview in the fall of 2004, that was before we had– so I was working with them quite early, so there was a good team working on that in those early years. And then the students became a community, it’s called the Mountainview Community, but that community emerged quickly, I don’t think we could have succeeded without the students taking, I couldn’t do anything, I can’t– I, uh, they’re all kinds of issues and the students have to help each other, it’s just not going to work out and, uh, and, uh, and they rose to the challenge and created their own organization, you’re familiar with it, it’s called MVP, Mountainview Student Organization, it’s gone through various iterations, it was extremely influential in the early days and so forth, and, uh, and– and you know the presence on the campus is tremendous. 

21:36

I’m wondering if you could speak more to that too, like what kinds of things were you observing, what were the unique factors of someone who is coming with that previous life experience and moving into these educational programs? What was their, A, their motivation to do it, and what were some of the challenges they were facing, and what were some of the coping, you know, mechanisms that were put into place to help them through that?

Well, uh, one of the challenges is that they’re still under the purview of the judicial system. So the– the– the students or some of them spent their first year at Rutgers, some of the first two years, I believe, living in a halfway house with very strict curfews, no use of cell phone, all kind of restrictions, so many of our students were not– and those who were out of the halfway houses were on parole with parole officers making visits. So those were all challenges that I would never, I never had to cope with in my own life and, uh, uh, they had to make contact calls to the halfway house four or five times a day [laughter]. I would, “Have you made your call?” Go running around the campus, calls the halfway house, “Hey we haven’t heard–” “You’ve got to make a call but you can’t use my cell phone.” So that kind of–

You had to– you would get those calls?

Well I helped to remind people, and they remind each other, I mean the halfway house would call me when there were problems, uh, we didn’t have any structure. This today is an entirely different, we have a NJ-STEP has a, uh, and also Chris is a superb administrator. I am terrible and I can’t say no to anybody, and it’s that kind of– and so I– so these– there were– we did not have the support, so some of the students violated whatever regulations, and then they’re sent back to prison, it’s a terrible experience, terrible and so I, uh, I, uh, and so there were, I mean, as people survived the first year and get more and more freedom, there are some who maxed out in prison, that means they didn’t get any halfway house privileges, they had to stay incarcerated the whole time, but when they got to Rutgers they were free, which ironically was good in that sense because they didn’t have to deal with running out of class to make phone calls, but, but, uh, but, but even those students faced challenges. Driving, being pulled over, and– and people search your record immediately and you’re vulnerable. That’s the kind of challenge that was– and that continues and– and one has to triumph over that and I, uh, that I, uh, and, um, uh, so that, and people on parole aren’t allowed to live together, but we got special exceptions, there’re all kinds of rules and regulations, uh, and, and that’s, uh, which is a strain, so what were they, you had three questions and I jumped on to–

26:17

We talked about challenges and what were some of the, I mean your observations, you shared some of the observations, what it was like for the students to navigate that system, but then what were– did it require a certain personality type in students to go after this opportunity?

Yes. So it– it– not all students who are in the college program wanted to do this, uh, and, um, and, uh, and then there were some who said, “I’m not ready for it now,” and then came back later which is wonderful, uh, and, in the early period, I think I pushed a little too much. I thought that this was the best way to mitigate the ill effects of a judicial record, and that by going to Rutgers it could really help and it has helped many, but not everyone. And I realize now that some people did very well developing careers and, uh, which I greatly admire. Professional electricians, and welders and so forth, and some have done that now are going to school at night, so not everyone fits that pattern, I suppose it’s– and so– but there’s a core of students who want to continue and they’ve the teachers, uh, beginning with the project encouraged them to, uh, they, uh, I think the people at Princeton encouraged, and they saw this as something they really wanted to do. It– and it provided–, it provided a change in physical space which was important to some people, so instead of– so that they would be– many of our students– New Brunswick became sort of neutral territory for people got in a lot of trouble in Camden and Newark, now we have programs in Camden and Newark and– and– and– and, I, but I think that Rutgers provides another space for these students, even in Camden and Newark. But especially New Brunswick, and I think some have benefitted huge in getting physical distance from the places where they got in a lot of trouble. And their grandmothers, one of them out of New Brunswick, and they, and– and– and so that has worked and it opened up a world, many have been interested in all kinds of activities are on campus engaged, political, brought activities here. The one that comes to mind is Michelle Alexander very soon after she wrote her gripping book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. The Mountainview Student Organization says, “She’s got to come,” and she says, “I’m coming,” and she was quite famous at that time, and a huge crowd came. I’m just saying I had nothing to do with that, so they saw and I think the student, the Rutgers Student whatever it is, student, uh, government, student activities and all, they just embraced and that’s wonderful. And it opened up a whole new world. So that was, so we’ve had marvelous success, um, at least one of our students, there’re more than one, I mean, very high grade point averages, perfection, two Truman Scholars come immediately to mind, Ben Chin and Walter Fortson and that’s– and that’s wonderful.

31:28

Would you say that’s, kind of like, how would you be able to articulate, granted this would be from your point of view, why is having this specialized program important? Would these individuals have just naturally made their way you know?

That’s interesting. Without this and I suspect, yes, some would have. And they’re way too generous in expressing appreciation to me for this and that. I think that they could, but this did provide an avenue and, uh, and support, increasing and, uh, and I think that the, uh, there’re all kinds of statistics of college programs reducing recidivism rates across the country, uh, the first program was San Francisco State, and Eric was out in San Francisco, and we have a partnership with San Francisco State, they go back, uh, oh my, they go back close to twenty five years or more, mainly from San Quentin. San Quentin has a long– has provided social degrees and then they transfer to San Francisco State under Project Rebound, but, and now there are programs all over the country. I don’t know. Chris knows. There’s even an annual  National Conference on Higher Education in Prison.  In any event, there’s pretty good data to show college does help, lowers recidivism. Having said that, I’m one, I’m not a gloomy person, but I tend to obsess on failures, and we’ve had failures. Uh, uh, and dramatic ones. Our first student is dead, I’ll give you that example. And rarely a day goes by when I don’t remember him. He was splendid but he, uh, he overdosed on drugs, and he went back into custody and would come back to Rutgers and so forth, so, uh, and we’ve lost others. One student was murdered. And you– so it’s not, it’s not an unblemished success story at all. We’ve had quite a few people who dropped out and didn’t resume. Some of those people tell me they got a lot out of it even though– I tend to worry more that our students receive student loans, they get Pell Grants, which help but they always need more. I always agonize over people who didn’t graduate, yet have some debt too. Those kinds of things weigh on my mind. Then people will tell you, “Not all Rutgers students are graduation, Rutgers is not one hundred percent.” I’ve heard numbers I was surprised at and the Mountainview Program is pretty consistent with the rest of the students. I think that’s true. Still, you know, it’s a, you know, there’ve been some sad tales, but, the, I’ve, um, I guess the positive outweighs the negative when I look back at it all.

36:27

So a lot of that, a lot of those programs from 2004 to 2009, that was all part of Project Inside, connecting students to these programs. What was the next step of the evolution of that? 

So the evolution, so this continued through the first meeting of, um, I attended that, um, that, um, yes the first meeting at the School of Criminal Justice in Newark that began the discussions of NJ-STEP was December 12, 2011, so we were operating until then, uh, with volunteers or people like Chris who were paid to do other jobs but were putting a lot of time into this. At this time, already by 2010-2011, I, you know, well into my sixties, I’m now almost 75, I realized that we needed a stronger program, a stronger structure. And I’m all for volunteerism, and I very much think that professors here and at Princeton can very well volunteer, but I don’t think you can, when you start imposing on others at the university to do some of the administrative work, that’s not fair. So you need a paid staff or some kind of funding, and Chris and I were started to apply for outside grants and so forth, uh, I, um, outside grants are, writing grants and obtaining them is an art form, and, uh, I– that did not go anywhere, the grants didn’t. There were some feelers and so forth. And then, I was in– got in touch with the School of Criminal Justice. They knew we were doing this all the time, the early years, the dean wasn’t too interested, but Dean Clear, who became dean, was very interested and he said, “This program you started in New Brunswick needs to be expanded. We need to expand you know, we really want to take this on.” And I said, “Wonderful. The time is right.” And we began a series of meetings in December 2011, and that is what evolved into NJ-STEP the next year. It merged quickly with, and with significant funding from, The Ford Foundation and so forth, and because they know how to write grants and I did not, and then eventually, and so Chris started to work for NJ-STEP by the fall of 2012. So that’s how that evolution began, but I don’t think we could have continued the way we were and under NJ-STEP, Project Inside also fell apart then, so we lost that. NJ-STEP expanded the courses in the correctional facilities–

And Project Inside was a federal program.

It was a federal program.

So the feds kind of backed off that.

They appeared to and I don’t know exactly how that happened. The relationship, but, uh, it was defunded and so this–

What was kind of the early planning, you talked about it a little bit, but as you're going into those planning meetings, or having a conversation with the department of criminal justice, did you have a set ethos of what the program needed to be?

I don’t think so and Chris and I attended from the beginning, a couple of our Mountainview students attended those meetings, and the people from the Princeton program were there. So it was a consortium, uh, and, um, and there were others there. And the, uh, there was a lot of brainstorming and, but, Mountainview continued, we were already recruiting for the next year and so forth, but– but Mountainview very quickly came under NJ-STEP, which provided funding and so forth, so I, uh, so Chris, I’m deferring to Chris on all of that. It’s a fairly complex– also in all organizations, people come and go over the time, Chris has been with it from the beginning.

When did you first meet Chris? You said you were working with him when it–

Yes, I think the first time Dean Torian called him to my attention, and I believe I know here on the timeline we were doing stuff in 2008, April 23, 2008, I met with Dean Howard and Chris Agans to discuss the candidates. So certainly in the spring of 2008, and I believe we met before that in 2007 and what I– he was in Student Support Services, he became the director of that, he may not have been director when I met him, but I said that several of our Mountainview students need support: tutoring and what, and he said he wanted to do it. So I began to send students to him. There are other support services at Rutgers, but that office was quite wonderful, and so we built up a tie between the program, and he got to know the students quickly. He wasn’t much older than the students. He’s still young, but back then you can imagine more than ten years ago. And that’s very helpful. He could communicate. And then I just as much as possible brought him when I would go to halfway houses or visit prisons, he would come along then he became so, it’s, uh, that was a lifesaver, but we still needed NJ-STEP too. I mean we didn’t, I think, NJ-STEP has gotten outside funding, but it also gets funding from the chancellor’s office in Newark, I guess it’s fair to say this particular project might interest them more than here in New Brunswick because of the nature of Newark, it’s just such a important issue, and Nancy Cantor has been very supportive, and our offices are on the Newark campus, but we’ve always had students here where it all started. It’s important I think to do that and I– so the– I guess the Newark may have more Mountainview students now than New Brunswick, I’ve lost track of the numbers. We’re in Camden now. Anyway. So you asked a few questions before–

45:43

I think you’re picking up most of the threads that we’re interested in, so Fall of 2012 was when Chris really started working for NJ-STEP, then it really became a thing. 

Right, he became the director, he was director of Mountainview, but he was Director of Transitions, uh, and, um, and now he is the Director.

And Transitions would mean specifically the individuals who are leaving the facility and coming into the– now how– what’s the nature of classes or the way it’s structured in the facility, and is it still structured– is there a different kind of structure versus any of the other Project Inside that you were working with?

Yes, it’s much better structured than Project Inside. NJ-STEP has counselors who are attached to each facility and are there to council the students and enroll them in courses. There are, I think they are called Accuplacer tests so that students, once they have their GED, they take the Accuplacer test so that they can– we have different– we have different levels of math, different levels of writing and English. That started with Princeton, actually, they started doing that, but under NJ-STEP, that has really, so it’s really, it’s really, Raritan Valley College is our main community college, Union isn’t involved anymore, or Mercer isn’t. They used to be, but Raritan, this is part of the Raritan Valley College curriculum. They are getting the same education inside. That wasn’t true, they had many more choices, I’m just flabber- Arabic, Italian, you know, there’s not every semester, and I just think that’s wonderful and we, teachers, uh, they’re, we have the Princeton teachers all are volunteers, but we also have adjuncts who, who work for Raritan Valley College, and bless their souls, they want to teach in these facilities, it takes a lot more time and effort to do that, you wait to get in, you know, there’re all kinds of things that can happen that can lengthen your day, you can’t just go into the prison and come out when you want to. Everything is moved around, so it’s really wonderful that they do that. It’s a much better education.

Was there a change in your process, let’s say if we’re talking about the launching of NJ-STEP, the creation of that first cohort, or that first class that, kind of like, filtered into NJ-STEP, the way that it was structured–

Right.

Was there a process to that or figuring out how it was going to be?

You would have to ask Chris that. Obviously in 2011, and 2012, we were in the old system of recruiting informally the way we were. Rutgers admissions worked with us on that, and they still do, and, uh, but, with NJ-STEP, we often have students who have AA degrees through NJ-STEP. In the adult prisons like East Jersey State Prison and Rahway, we have BA programs now because we have people with long, long sentences, some of them, some with life sentences, so they can get a Rutgers degree inside. Uh, the major is restricted to I don’t know if it’s Criminal Justice or Justice Studies or something, we can’t give BAs in Engineering or Greek or anything, like, but it’s available.

50:34

Why is that, is that just a scheduling–

We don’t have the– we don’t have that kind of resources.

You need technical labs–

And the school of Criminal Justice has backed this to the extent that they want a degree there and hope, I think they kind of hope others will come in, it hasn’t happened yet, you can ask Chris, but it is now possible to get a BA inside. Uh, and it’s not all the facilities where the BA is possible, but the AA is possible everywhere and they’re in, uh, well they’re in seven facilities? The AA, well they’re in the youth correctional facilities, Wagner, Yardville, Mountainview, they’re in Edna Mahan, they’re in East Jersey, which is Rahway, big prison, Northern State Prison, up in north, Woods Prison, a huge prison in South Jersey, that’s seven prisons and, um, which is, and, uh, all ages, um, and, uh, and the result is under, in the old days, I, you know, I– I had the help of the university, it was affirmative action, it was an ironic affirmative action for people incarcerated, with me pushing and getting colleagues to push, “Get these people in and they’ll perform when they’re in.” Now we don’t have to do that, ‘cause they’re so well prepared inside under NJ-STEP. They can be part of an admissions process that doesn’t require, oh I better not, and I needed to do that to get the program started. I needed to get students admitted here to get the program started. But it’s nice to have students better prepared with more credits and it’s fairer to everyone else, and that has really taken place under NJ-STEP because we have students who have such wonderful qualifications, classes, that wasn’t true in the beginning. 

What’s the– I mean so 2012 to today, how is it changed, did you have an evaluation or assessment process?

I’ve been slowing down, again you’ll have to ask Chris. The numbers keep increasing, I know that, I went to the graduation celebration in May and I don’t know how many graduates, he has all the statistics. We started, when was the first graduate, in 2007 or 8, it was one person and we just started. I know that in 2011 or 12 there were a fair number of graduates, but now, uh, from the three campuses, it’s a large cohort and he’ll give you all the numbers. And a variety of majors, we have students who were admitted to engineering school and the business school.

Do you have, in terms of like, your recollections of the process, of getting in essence the state to commit to the program, what was that part of it–

Yes, and that’s a really important one. So the Department of Corrections was very helpful first when I was in the Mountainview facility and then at initial meetings with Department of Corrections officials in January and February of 2006. I– From the beginning the DOC representatives made it clear to me that they wanted this project to succeed. 

55:24

Why do you think? What was motivating them?

I mean they had the Project Inside program to begin with, and they just didn’t know they could link that to Rutgers and, um, I remember, I, was it James Dorsey, “If you’re having any trouble at Rutgers Mr. Roden, will you just have them give me a call?” I realized that I don’t want– but in other words the Department of Corrections saw this old professor running around trying to do things and they said, “Rutgers is a state university, this is a university for these incarcerated students as well as out in Hillsborough High School.” And they didn’t have to make those phone calls, not at all, I’m just saying, you were asking was I getting help, so there was strong support and that has continued. The Office of Education under Mr. Jecrois Jean-Baptiste, he’s just been so supportive. So the DOC wanted this to work from the beginning. They even suggested halfway houses might be a little, they don’t run the halfway houses, the halfway houses are private, but they can influence and they wanted the students to–

Were they– were, kind of like, the state officials, or elected officials, or administrative officials, were they looking at other–you had mentioned the California program, were they looking at the programs in other places and seeing–

I think they were aware of that, uh, I think that they, I mean it’s called Department of Corrections, which suggests that you’re going to get better and they really were– and we had high recidivism in New Jersey. It’s going down thank goodness, but it was high in the nineties and so they were interested in different programs and I– they were on board with NJ-STEP from the beginning. So that was hugely helpful. I’ve never had any contact with the state Attorney General or the Governor’s office or anything like that, but the Department of Corrections was, and it wasn’t the commissioner but it was the Director of Community Programs who now is the commissioner actually and the, uh, and the individual facilities who had these programs, their administration. All of it was very supportive and made this possible. It, but, still our students, um, you know, studying in these facilities, studying in the halfway house, the noise is just terrific. I just– I would– one night in any of these facilities or halfway houses I would just have a nervous breakdown. I grew up as a spoiled brat whining at the least inconvenience when I was a little boy, and I just have to sort of admire people to be able to focus and do that in all of this. The facilities are very noisy. People shouting, so that’s really been very moving for people to triumph over their circumstances. But at the top, the Department of Corrections definitely wanted it to work and the state parole did, uh, so–

60:16

So what was the– you talked about your first student who graduated around 2007. That was an individual who left the facility and enrolled in school.

Right. His name was Christopher Lee, I think he was our first graduate. He also had a perfect GPA when he came here, I mean when he finished here and, um, uh, May 24, 2008 Christopher Lee graduates from Rutgers with a perfect GPA and that helped. That helped the whole program; his success. He was the second, the first group of students was one student who’s dead. The second group of four students included Chris Lee and, uh, uh, Danny Feliciano who also was in that group and graduated and has been very successful–

What was that time like for you when he made it through the program?

Well I was thrilled because other people were having problems, and it was very, very nice and I, uh, he, uh, told me, “I did this for myself, but I did it for you.” So that was very, very nice moment. And then, um, and then that gave credibility. Chris Lee’s achievement helped a great deal, and then others, we were able to continue, and we would have continued maybe without NJ-STEP but it would have been very difficult to sustain. Also I needed, it’s just very nice to have people appreciate it and the university and be on the salaries, you know, have positions that helped.

And since that time, now you have individuals who are earning degrees while they’re still incarcerated, so are you having, are you conferring degrees to people who still have time to serve? When was the first–

That I don’t know, Chris will have to tell you. All of this started after 2012, we didn’t even, we hadn’t reached out, we didn’t have a program in Northern State or Rahway, East Jersey State until 2012, and then it took off in both those and, and the men are older and very dedicated. I keep in touch, I don’t go in the facilities anymore, but I keep in touch by mail and, um, a number have graduated there and, um, and, you know, could even go to graduate school when they get out. It’s a dream we have, it’s one of the sad difficult things is people got locked up when they were juveniles, 14, 15 years old and then given adult sentences, and then they stay for decades and that’s hard. I think that’s, you know, criminal justice reform is in the air, and I think this mass incarceration will be a thing of the past. It’s already decreasing, there’re still people locked into the system and it’s very sad. So–

65:00

You had said early on when we started talking that you had hoped that the, you know, why try to create an education program, right? And the hope is that it eases a problem somewhere and it also betters individuals’ lives. Looking back on it now, how would you evaluate those goals?

Well, I think things have gone better than I ever imagined, certainly in the sense that I didn’t expect that the program would develop into NJ-STEP and so forth. I didn’t have such vision or plans, so I’m very, very pleased, and it wouldn’t have developed into the success that it is today without the, without the people, without the work on many fronts, both here at Rutgers and the Department of– a number of our graduates from the Mountainview program work for NJ-STEP. Quite a few of them do, I don’t know, Regina Diamond is the Head of Transitions, Amy Rodriguez. Amy has moved back to Rutgers, Reginald Gaines, and then so the program, that helps to sustain the program. There’re also a number of Mountainview graduates who work at Rutgers in various departments; it’s wonderful. Uh, so the university, I thank my lucky stars for being part of this university. I feel like the luckiest person in the world actually when I think of it all. I am so glad, lucky to have come here. Anyway, so I guess that’s, I can add on, we can chat on the phone later on or something, unless there’s anything else, I think those are the main points.

Is there anything you were assuming I would ask you that I haven’t asked you?

I can’t think of anything, I’m hard pressed to, but, you know, if you have questions, John, I can answer further on, I can supplement by email–

I can stop the recording.