Sonny Silva is a Vietnam veteran from Milford, New Jersey. Sonny talks about growing up in Milford, his time in the US military, and the close personal friendships he made during that experience. Since retiring, Sonny works to help veterans get the services that they need. He views his work as paying it forward for the help and advice his friend gave him after returning from service.

ANNOTATIONS

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TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Jin Jung

Interview conducted remotely

July 3, 2023

Transcription by Jin Jung

[00:00:11]

Recording in progress. Okay. So I am supposed to do a little introduction, so I will say that first. Um, this is Jin Jung and it's July. [clears throat] Excuse me. It's July 3rd, 2023. I am currently at home in Jersey City interviewing– Can you say your name?

Sonny, Sonny Silva. I live in Milford, New Jersey.

Okay.

Okay. I am almost 74 years old and a Vietnam veteran.

If you are 74, you were born in ‘49?

Yeah, 1949. July 16 so we are coming up on it.

Wow. Happy birthday. [laugh]

Almost. [laugh]

Okay. ‘49. Just going to note that there. Perfect. Okay, I know we started to talk a little bit in the pre-interview about your name. You said Sonny is not really your name. Can you tell us your name again?

Okay. My real name, my given name, was Manuel Anthony Silva Jr.. Uh, my father was born in Portugal and came to this country when he was 16. Uh, early 20s, met my mother who was, uh, second generation Irish. Uh, they met in Brooklyn, NY, and that was about it. The reason why I was called Sonny was because we lived on a farm. The barns were quite a distance from the house. So, of course, for dinner and everything, when mom would go out and yell our names to come in for lunch or dinner uh, it got– I guess they confused Manuel and didn't know if it was me or my dad so we got switched to Sonny. [laugh]

Yeah.

At least I did. Uh, and I may– that might have been because I was born with very blond hair. I still have a blond streak. In my hair. But that may have been why they gravitated towards Sonny.

It could have been both. Your hair and that you are the son. [laugh]

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. So you said your dad was an immigrant. So did he speak Portuguese at home?

No, Dad didn't speak Portuguese at home. It was, uh, the only time I heard him speak in Portuguese was if he was on a phone call with Portugal and talking to one of his brothers or sisters.

Oh, so his family was in Portugal still.

Oh yeah.

So he came by himself?

No, his father brought my dad and two of his brothers to America in, uh, let's see it would have been 1918.

Oh wow.

He was 16 years old. Uh– Brought him over to see if they wanted to start a new, uh, new life in America. So, uh, out of the three of them, only my dad stayed. And, uh, decided he wanted to start a– start a new life in America.

[00:03:38]

So everyone went back except for your dad. So he was all alone?

Yes, uh, luckily there was another family who had moved to the United States up in the Providence, Rhode Island area.

Uh-huh.

Uh– Earlier, a couple of years earlier, so Dad was able to– he had a connection, so he was able to stay with them for a while.

So he lived in Rhode Island?

Well. That's where, instead of coming to Ellis Island, uh, a lot of immigrants came to Providence, Rhode Island.

Oh. I never knew that!

Yeah. That was another immigration center.

How amazing. I guess it was a port, too, because they– they came by sea.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Yeah, they came by sea. Uh– So yeah, that was, uh, as you find out, a lot of Portuguese settled in that area as well as up in Cape Cod. That area. I've been up there many times. And I found many cemeteries that have Manuel Silva on their headstones.

Wow.

Actually found one that said Manuel and Mary Silva, so Mary was my mother's name.

Oh really?

Yeah.

But your mother– you said they met in Brooklyn?

Yeah. Dad. I don't know why he moved down to Brooklyn but, uh, he did. And I guess back then, I've seen photos, in fact, then Brooklyn isn't what you think of Brooklyn now.

Sure.

Uh, there were a lot of little farms, and whatever. So I think, uh, he met my mom who, her last name was Shire. And– met my mother somehow, not really quite sure where, but anyway met my mother and– eventually, uh, well he went to work for a little garage fixing automobiles or whatever. Worked his way up and eventually bought a garage.

Nice.

And the garage was in Brooklyn, and at the back entrance of Ebbets Field which was where the Brooklyn Dodgers played.

[00:05:54]

Oh wow. Cool! [laugh]

So a lot of the players will drop their cars off at Dad's shop.

Oh Wow.

To have ‘em repaired while they were practicing or in a game or whatever. And many times they would come out, in addition to paying Dad, they would give him souvenirs. A baseball bat signed by somebody. A catcher's mitt. Whatever. Ah– of course back then we didn't know the value of things so when he moved up to the– the farm and bought the farm. I used to use baseball bats to hit rocks with.

[laugh]

[00:06:32]

And same thing with catchers' mittens, we used to use them for first base and second base or whatever.

[laugh]

So– uh, heaven knows what names [laugh] and what value those things would have today.

Celebrities. Yeah.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, you know how things– the value increases as years go on.

Sure.

So, uh, anyway, but that was, that was something. But anyway.

So you had your childhood in the farm, even though they met in– in– in a city.

In Brooklyn.

Yeah!

Well, my– my mother's brother moved up first and bought a little farm up here, which adjoins our property here.

Are you living in an area where you were– where you spent your childhood?

Yeah. I, uh, I built a house on the upper end of the farm.

Oh wow– so you're still there?

Oh yeah– Been here almost seventy-four years.

Oh wow– So tell me a little bit about the, like, how it is, or how it was. Yeah.

How it was? Okay. Well, back then, the road out front here was dirt. Uh– the farms were relatively small. My– my uncle had a dairy farm. He raised cows. My dad decided to raise chickens. So, uh, back then, a lot of things were done on, uh, barter systems. I would take eggs up to my uncles and bring back milk, you know?

Yeah.

Fresh milk from the cows. And as I got a little older, I would get up before school, and– and it was about, uh, half a mile. I would either ride my bicycle up to my uncle's or walk and help with the milking in the morning before school. And then, uh, in the evening around supper time, we'd milk again.

[00:08:16]

Wow.

I think, I think, back then I got $0.50 a day.

You got paid? [laugh]

I. got. paid. $0.50 back then bought an awful lot, you know.

Yeah.

I could get down to the– I could get down to the ice cream stand here and, uh, you know, for $0.10, get a cone or, you know, French fries for $0.20. And so for $0.50 you could almost get down there and eat pretty well.

Yeah, anything a kid would want–

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I was– I was kind of a skinny kid, so, you know, I was encouraged to eat.

Oh yeah–

[00:08:52]

So, you know, I never felt bad about going down and having two milkshakes or, you know, or a sundae, for– for– for dinner instead.

[laugh] So you had a pretty idyllic childhood. It sounds so nice!

Yea, I did. I mean growing up on the farm, and– and all my friends were– were basically farm kids, too.

Yeah. I guess you run around in the same area.

Oh Yeah. You know, I mean, we. We knew every inch of this area of the township. I mean between us, we either camped there or walked through it or hunted there or– or whatever. But we knew all the area around here, like the back of my hand.

Remind me again the name of your town.

Milford. M-I-

Oh, Milford. Yes.

Yup

I've heard of it.

Just north of Frenchtown. Which is where the ArtYard is.

So how is it now? What– what changed?

Uh– Well– Things have, in Milford, uh, it kind of fell behind as far as there were a lot of little shops that would open up, but they'd only stay open for a little while. We didn't have the amount of tourism coming through. Uh– We're north of a town called New Hope, Pennsylvania.

Yeah–

Okay. So New Hope is about, uh, 45 minutes down the road. And, uh, so bit by bit, I think the people that– that, you know, spent time in New Hope, uh, started to buy little properties out this way, and it kind of grew north from New Hope to Frenchtown, which is where the ArtYard is.

Yeah.

Frenchtown was just a small, quiet little town really. It– it really didn't have much to offer. But as the years went on– then– then various people would start shops down there and got to the point where the shops were, uh, more for people that maybe were down in New Hope.

Mmm.

So they come north to see what was north of New Hope and, uh, check us out. So slowly Frenchtown has become quite the destination.

Yeah.

And a lot of people come out this way. We have a rail trail that we bicycle on.

I’ve been there! [laugh]

[00.11:17]

Oh, you have! Okay, okay. Well, that rail trail, it stops a little north of Frenchtown, but before it got to Milford, so there was never a loop that people could get into.

Mmm.

And that's what we needed for Milford. We needed to have it as a secondary destination in bicycle travels, you know, to stop for lunch or dinner or breakfast. So, bit by bit. So we're still working with the county on that– to open that one section. It's about a mile long. Uh, hopefully, that would, uh, take place and then we'd get more of a tourism shot up this way, which we need.

It sounds like you're involved in, th– the town, uh, the development of the town. I know that, uh, you were the commander of the– Veterans of Foreign Wars.

Yes.

And then, uh, you’re– you're active in so many different parts of, I guess, in your surrounding–

Yeah, uh, yeah, well, actually, see, I retired early. I retired at the age of 55. I was a heavy crane operator, ironworker, uh– and I lost part of my hand here–

Oh! [laugh]

[laugh] at work. And, uh, at the time, I looked at the money and I went, ah, you know, I can afford to retire. So I retired then. I got my wife who was– who is ten years younger than I am. I got her to, uh, retire the next year.

Wow.

So we have been kind of living an idyllic life. Uh–

Yeah.

You know.

Like your childhood.

Right. Yeah, exactly! Exactly, exactly. And we still have, well, the farm is still in the family. Just three years ago, we, my sister, and my brother, and I, sold the farm to my niece.

Oh, so stays in the family.

It stays in the family, yes. And, uh, you know, it's nothing has changed, really. It was a win-win situation because it stayed in the family. Uh– we didn't get as much money for it as we probably could have, but–

Yeah, but it's going to your family.

Yeah– I was more interested in having, you know, being able to still walk around the farm, like, I have for some years, uh, you know, uh, take the dog for a walk. And just that was the good thing, that was, that did come of it.

[00:13:57]

How many siblings do you have? You have a sister and a brother?

A sister and a brother. My brother passed away four years ago.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Uh, yeah, well, we all get older. I was the youngest.

Oh, you're the youngest.

Yeah.

Okay. And so your sister was the middle child?

Yes, my sister was the middle child. Yes. Mary Jane.

And, whose– whose offspring, bought, bought the farm?

Bought the farm? My brother's. My brother's daughter. And– and she has two boys that, um, I guess they're both in their very early 20s. Uh– and didn't want to go to college. They wanted to be farmers. They already had a small farm about two miles up the road. So in buying our farm, they got more acreage to farm. Uh, the boys are just, I'm so happy to see the farm planted again.

Yeah.

Harvest– harvested again. You know, for a while, it just laid fallow and, uh, you know, I was– I was kind of sad about that, but now I– I see all the things that you would think of seeing around the farm anymore. So–

Yeah, you never worked on the farm?

[00:15:09] 

Well, I did when I was a kid. I mean, yeah, uh, we still built hay, and– and planted corn and oats and stuff. So I remember working on the farm, as a kid, I guess. Yeah, as a kid, probably up until the time I was maybe, oh– 12 or 13, maybe? That's about the time I think Dad stopped farming.

Oh, because your dad stopped farming, you stopped?

Yeah, I did. I did as well. And I– I didn't have– I didn't want to be a farmer. I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer.

Oh, wow!

Because at the time, this was shortly after Kennedy's, uh, uh, speech of, you know, we're gonna put a man on the moon in the next decade.

Yeah.

You know, for me– Kennedy, I always said that his– his presidency was Camelot.

Mmm.

Uh– It’s just, he was a younger president. Uh– I don't know. For some reason, I just thought that he was our future. You know, could put a whole different thing to it. And of course–

Of course, yeah! I mean Kenndy, it was a big reason you probably went to Vietnam.

Uh. Could be. I– I have one book that I haven't, I just got it recently. And it's– it's called JFK and Vietnam. And I'm anxious to read that because it will give some of the very early reasons that we– we went into Vietnam, and–

So in between your– when you decided that you didn't want to be a farmer. And then– how old were you when you went to Vietnam?

Okay, well. Uh, when I graduated high school, and I was– I was relatively smart. I– I think I was, as a freshman, I think I was number one in the class. But–

Wow! [laugh]

[00:17:13]

But you know, then as the years went on, junior and senior year, I discovered girls and, uh, fast cars.

Yeah. [laugh]

So I started to drift a little bit. Maybe I didn't do my homework quite so well, or whatever. I think I finished, uh, like thirtieth in the class. But anyway–

That’s still really good!

Yeah, it was still good. Yeah, it was enough to get me into, uh. Well, I went to Penn State.

Oh! You already went to college?

Yeah, yeah. I had gone to college that first year. But– coming from a farm family, we didn't have a lot of money. And I knew it was kind of, uh, not a struggle, but it was, it put a little hardship on the family to pay for my tuition and whatever.

Yeah.

So, I was working after school classes at night, as well. And I was, I was working, I was a manager in sporting goods store, actually. And– I was working, you know, burning both ends of the candle.

Yeah.

And it got, it got to be at a point. And at the end of my first year, I said, ‘I'm not going back this year, I'm gonna take a year off. I'm gonna work, I'm gonna get some money ahead. And, uh, I won't have to do this. You know, next year, I'll be able to take it easy a little bit.”

Yeah.

So that, that would have been in September that I didn’t go back to school. I got my draft notice in December, uh– because as soon as you lose your S-2 deferment, which was student.

School.

Uh– They knew right away, and of course, I got my draft notice, in– in December, and I went into the Army on March 12th of 1969.

So did you know that if you didn't go back to school that you were gonna get a draft notice?

Yeah– I did. You know what? Maybe we didn't, maybe I didn't pay enough attention to the TV at night. I mean, Vietnam was the first televised war, really. And maybe I didn't pay enough attention because I was too busy out either working on my car or going on a date. [chuckle] So, I knew I would, probab– probably go in, and probably end up in Vietnam, but it didn't really– it didn't upset me. I wasn't, uh, apprehensive of going I guess. And, by the time I got drafted and went in. Being a country boy, the training was right up my alley. I mean, I've been shooting and hunting and tracking and everything my whole life. So, I got into, you know, basic training and– did very well, uh, went into advanced individual training and– did very well, actually graduated first in a battalion.

[00:20:18] 

You always do so well in these settings.

Yeah, it was a– it was a, uh, I enjoyed it. There was actually three of us. Uh, one guy that lived about, uh, oh, I don't know, about 10 miles from me over in Flemington he lived. And the other guy, Doug Vendola, lived in Linden, New Jersey. So, the three of us were like the three musketeers going through training. And we just, we aced everything, all three of us, even Doug from Linden would spend summers, uh, at his grandparents in Minnesota. So he was basically a farm boy, too.

Mm-hmm.

So, the three of us were just– we took the training like a duck does the water. It was, uh, we actually had fun doing it. And of course, at the end of training, uh, we got called in, the three of us got called into the commander's office. And he was congratulating us, on– on the, finishing our training so well. And we got– we got plaques and little statues or, you know, trophies and whatever for doing this. And he said, “So boys,” he says, “you're going to make really good officers. So– how about you going to Officer Candidate School?” And of course, we knew that doing that you're going to have to extend at least another year, in– in the military. Uh– And that was one thing three of us didn't want to do. We just wanted to put our time in and get the hell out of there. So we said, “No, thank you, sir. You know, we– we would rather not.” “Well, okay, how about, uh, we put you in Drill Sergeant School?” And again, we'd have to extend another year or so. And “No, sir. We'd rather not.” “Well, that's– that's– that's a– that's a shame, boys. Uh, we really wish you would think about doing something in that order.” And later that day, we got called back in and our orders had been changed. Originally, our orders were to go to Vietnam.

[00:22:30]

Mm-hmm.

And our orders had been changed, the three of us– [phone rings] Excuse me.

[laugh]

Ah– The three of us were getting our MOS which is Military Occupational Specialty. So some guys go infantry, some guys go electronics, you know–

I see.

We got changed to, uh, what was called 11S, 11 Foxtrot. And– nobody knew what that was. Uh– We kept asking around. We finally found a buck sergeant who had returned from Vietnam. And– he said, “Oh, you're gonna be LRRP [pronounced Lurp].” And I said, “Well, what– what is LRRP?” He says, “Well– they're going to take you and a couple of your buddies and you're going to hang on bottom of the helicopter, they're going to take you into Laos, in North Vietnam, and drop you off. And you get to just observe, uh, along the Ho Chi Minh Trail, uh, whatever.” And– again, that was, “Well, you know what, that's more training, we're gonna get down. We're gonna be in ranger training.” Uh– It kind of sounded good to us.

Really? [laugh]

Well, again, like I say, we enjoyed our training. Eh, we were good at it. And, we felt– enough– uh– We thought we'd be good enough, to– to be able to get through that.

You were confident.

Right– To go through this whole thing. Uh, unfortunately, the– the night we're– before we were supposed to leave– John, who lives in Flemington, uh, he had gotten into a little tussle with one of the sergeants and got in a fight. And they tossed him out of the program.

[00:24:24]

Aw– So it was no longer the three.

Right– So it was just Doug and I. Uh, this was on Wednesday, uh, that we graduated, they wanted us to be in Fort Benning, Georgia on Saturday.

So– what year was this?

This was 1969.

Oh, ‘69. I'm sorry.

Yeah. Now, we’re– we're into late August of ‘69. So, uh, the only way we were going to drive down and I had a ‘57 Chevy. Uh– That was all souped up and everything. And Doug and I took off, I think, on Friday morning. Yeah. We took off on Friday morning, headed to– headed to Fort Benning, Georgia. Uh– the car was so souped up that when we stopped for gas, we couldn't turn it off because it wouldn't start again. So we just kept taking turns driving, and we got down to, uh, Greensboro, North Carolina. And, that's where another one of the guys who graduated with us lived. And we knew he was home on leave before he went to Vietnam. So we decided we would stop in and see him.

Mm-hmm.

And we stopped in and, uh, you know, of course, you sit down, you're talking ball and drinking beer, and he says, “Hey, do you want to go to a keg party tonight?” “Ooh, sounds good to us,” you know?

I couldn't hear, what party?

A keg party. In other words, you know. Another words–

Oh, a keg party. Yes. Yes.

So yeah– “Sure. We'll go.” Uh, so we went that night and drove a couple of miles and pulled down, and in this big field, and, uh, everybody in this field was wearing white.

Okay–

And having very cone-shaped headgear. What was– it was– it was a Ku Klux Klan meeting.

Oh!

[00:26:28]

Eh– So, we didn't take part in the meeting, but we did take part in the beer. And, uh, the next morning we woke up, it was, uh, it was Friday or Saturday morning. And of course, we're supposed to be at Benning. And we're still hours and hours away. And I went, “They don't start training on a Saturday. They won't start training until Monday. You know, we might as well just take it easy. We'll turn up, you know, Sunday morning,” which we did. You showed up Sunday morning. First Sergeant said, “The commander wants to see you guys.” And we went up there and, uh, came to attention in front of his desk and, he said “Boys,” he says “you're supposed to be here yesterday.” He says, “I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to take you out of the program.”

Oh, wow.

So– He kind of booted us out of the program– Put us in what they call the holding company. And it's, uh, it's where, uh, the recruits go to wait for new orders to be made out. Back then everything was typed out, you know, it wasn’t computers. So it took a couple of weeks, you know, to– to get new orders. So for about thirty days, we had– we just hung around this– this barracks that was for the holding company. Uh, every day we would fall out, and they would assign us various, uh, duties to work you might be on KP, you may go down to KP. You might be doing a cleanup somewhere. Whatever.

What is KP?

[00:28:04]

KP. Kitchen duty.

Oh. Kitchen duty.

So, you might be washing pots and pans or you make the– the– the– the– everybody looks at, uh, KP as, peeling potatoes.

Oh. [laugh]

[chuckle] Bags, and bags, of potatoes.

Yeah. Repeated potato peeling.

Oh my god, yes. You know. So Doug, and I didn't want to have anything to do with that–

Right.

And, uh, there was one duty that nobody ever– volunteered for. And that was bomb disposal.

Oh, sounds dangerous.

So Doug and I looked at each other and we went, “Hey, how bad could it be,” you know? [laughs]

You wanted adventure–

We wanted adventure! Exactly! So, we volunteer for it. And, of course, up there they didn't do really anything. There was no bombs to defuse. They had a beautiful pool table in their barracks. This was great! [laugh] It's just– it was every day we would go up there and play pool and just, uh, mess around. And it was wonderful. Eventually, we did get our– our orders for Vietnam. We had a thirty-day leave at home. So we drove back to Milford and, uh, took our leave for thirty days before we went over.

[00:29:24]

So you really had a brotherhood with friends.

Oh, the military forms brotherhoods and that's the whole– The way military training works is in basic training, they break you down– uh, into the lowest form of life. I always say they break you down into whale poop which sits on the bottom of the sea.
[laugh]

You know and, uh, they break down. And then your advanced training is when they build you back up, into whatever you're going to be. Uh, if you're going to be, you know, infantry, you get, you know, a lot of training with weapons and everything like this. Uh, but that's how they do it, they make you– they want to make sure that you will follow orders unconditionally. And that's– that's the part about breaking you down and everybody calling you, you know, you're a worm, you're– you're worthless. Uh, and then they build you back up into what they want. Somebody who, as I said, would unconditionally, uh, charge, go in battle, whatever, they can’t have people that are hesitant. So that was the whole reason of that type of training. You just went and did it. I– I often put it to I don't know how familiar you are with our Civil War. But the Pickett's Charge was where, uh, 30,000– they charged up the hill because General Pickett said, “Go there,” and you go weathering fire. I think 17,000 were killed. Just in, that– that one battle. And, you know, that's what they had to have. Unconditional acceptance, uh, and, you know, doing your duty.

Yeah.

So, you know, that's the way I always put it. And, uh, I thought that's the way it worked well for them. I didn't realize that I think until years later when I started to really, uh, investigate what had happened to me in those years, you know.

What do you think happened to you?

Well, you know, that– that just a bunch of coincidences– and whatever that took us from one thing to another, you know, we got down there a day late. So we got tossed out of this unit and whatever. But, you– during that training, those two periods of training, you– like I said, you– you develop friends, uh, you start to realize that those friends have your back, that you can depend on them. And this just continues to grow. That's why Doug and– and John and I were– we were brothers. I mean, we were absolutely brothers. When we’d come home, John would come over, like, you're supposed to be back on a Sunday, and my parents would drive us down to Fort Dix. And John would come early, just so we could have dinner with, Sunday dinner with us. And my mom– basically considered him almost like a second– second or third son in our case. I mean, she just loved John.

[00:32:49]

When you guys did the training, it's not a very– it wasn't years that you have known John and Doug, and you formed a friendship so quickly.

Yeah, in a matter of eight, maybe ten weeks, twelve weeks or so, I mean, you just, we– we got to realize each other's, uh, abilities. And a lot of times, they team you up with a couple other guys, when you're in training, you know. You're gonna do– you're gonna do night infiltration. So they drop you off somewhere in the woods, and you've got the rest of the night to make your way, maybe a mile or two, to the, uh, command center. And– we were good. We were, you know, we had been tracking, we knew how to be quiet in the woods. And they would have other cadre, other members, you know, older members of the military out in the woods, trying to find us as well. And they would, you know, if they found you, they would arrest you more or less, you know, and so you didn't make it through. John and Doug and I, we just very quietly, we kind of shadowed a couple other groups who couldn't keep their mouth shut and kept talking. And we knew they would get it.

Mm-hmm

So we were– we stuck through the whole course, we were the only three that the sergeants knew that had made it through the course in the last year or two. Nobody ever made it.

That’s very good. Yeah.

So again, we're showing our abilities, you know–

[00:34:31]

Do you think because you went through such intimate, uh, experiences, like relying on each other for safety? And–

Absolutely. And the military, they, the way they do that is like, if you mess up during training or something, not only do you do push-ups, your whole platoon will do push-ups. So–

Oh wow. You're responsible for other people.

Exactly. So that's how, they– they decided to, uh, that's how they make you depend on somebody else, you know. You don't want to screw up, because everybody's going to be really ticked off at you if they got to do push-ups or whatever.

Yeah.

So right away, you start to depend on your other, the other soldiers doing their best as well. Yeah.

Uh, when you get to Vietnam– I don't know. Did you watch the military.com? The interview I had–

I did. Yes, that experience is from ‘69. The first year you're there?

Yeah. That was October of ‘69. Uh, and, like I say, you– nobody trusts you because you're a new guy. Once you're in combat in Vietnam, you really realize that somebody else is watching your back while you're watching somebody else's back. You become so close to these people in a matter of weeks, actually. I mean, in a matter of weeks, you know more about some of these guys than maybe their parents do. I know their secrets. Because, you know, when our patrolling was done, we're out in the bushes. Uh, when patrolling is done for the day, and you set up a perimeter for the night, uh, you can't just sit around the fire and talk, you know. It's whispers and– you stay as quiet as you can, but some of those whispers are, “Hey, you know, where are you from? Uh, your girlfriend's name?” Uh, you know, all this stuff we would find out.

Yeah.

[00:36:49]

And Frank Ware and I– Frank was from Youngstown, Ohio. And we got to be very close. Uh– And, uh, actually, Frank was gonna get home I think in September. I was due to get home in October. He was gonna get married to his girlfriend, Mary, as soon as he got home. Uh, Frank got– they changed the date of their wedding so that I could be Frank's best man. So I will be home. Uh– So that, you know, it was just, that's how close we had become.

Yeah.

And unfortunately, uh, on March 6, Frank was killed. [screen freezes]

Oh, you froze. Sonny.

You know that is, pardon–

You froze for a little bit.

Okay.

I heard that happened in 1969 and then you froze.

Okay. [Screen freezes]

I hear you now. Yeah. You're freezing again.

I wonder if it's– [Screen freezes] Oh, dear, dear.

I hear you fine, but your face freezes once in a while.

It might be our connection. Our internet connection.

It could be us, too–

Are you still having trouble?

I think we're okay now.

Okay. Well, let me know if I freeze again.

Okay, let's go back. You said that happened in 1969.

[00:38:39]

Yeah, that was in ‘69. Like I say, Frank and I become very good friends. And– and I was supposed to be in his wedding.

Yeah.

And he changed the date of it. But then in March, March 6th, uh, during an ambush, Frank was killed. So, I think I wrote a letter home to his mother explaining that Frank– It was quick. You know, Frank didn't suffer. Uh, I know I– You had to pick your own times to cry. Because you know, you still had to do your duty. You couldn't stop an ambush and say, “Wait a minute, I got to take a moment out of this,” you know. So the only time you had to yourself was basically after dark when we had set up and you had your thoughts to yourself. And I know that's when I would cry. Uh, you know, that I lost Frank. And, uh, it did really bother me. I think, like I say, I sent one letter home, but then I never really kept touch with the family. It wasn't until I did this project for History Channel, NatGeo and military.com, uh, that I was contacted by, I think that was, one of Frank's cousins wanting to know if I was the Sonny that Frank had talked about back then. I said, Yes. And, uh, actually through that, uh, I talked to Mary, who would have been Frank's wife.

Yeah.

Uh, we talked for quite a while, one day, on the phone. Since then, I've kind of kept in touch with them. And, uh, you know, someday I'll get out towards Youngstown. And I will stop and visit. But again, you know, sometimes those things just get past you and you don't get around to it. But it's on my bucket list. So–

So you said you wrote a letter to Frank’s family? Were you, um, told that you have to or did you feel like you needed to?

I felt like I needed to. Just like it would have been– if– if I wrote home to my mom– you know, uh, our cousin had died or something, you know. It would have been the same type of thing. And, uh, actually going back to John– Uh, John was killed on December 2nd– in an ambush. My mother read it in the local newspaper. Uh, and, you know, it– it really bothered Mom. Mom would not write and tell me until February. Actually, it was probably shortly before we started getting into a lot of ambushes, but she finally wrote me and said, “Sonny, uh, John was killed.” You know, and such and such a date. Actually, it turned out to be my mother and father's anniversary.

Oh my goodness.

But I know from talking to my sister that, after that, my mother became so afraid of seeing a car come down the driveway, or a taxi, because back then that's how families were notified. They'd send a taxi driver to tell him, you know, with a table gram or whatever that said, you know, your son has been– so my mother lived in fear, according to my sister, for the rest of the year until I come home. Uh, just of anybody coming down the driveway that you didn't recognize, I know, it really bothered her.

Yeah.

[00:42:41]

So you didn't know that John passed. So you don't hear about what goes on?

No, no, he was in the 196 Infantry Brigade. And each division had their own little maybe newspaper, they never said anything about death, it was always, you know, we won this battle, we won that battle, you know–

Something positive.

Very positive. So we really didn't know what was going on, you know, in other parts of the country. When– when I started doing the thing for NatGeo and History [channel], I started reading into other units. And, you know, we were in the central highlands, so we were in, basically almost like woods that you would see in forest that you would see here in this country, you know, a lot of wooded forest. Guys down south were in the swamps, in the Mangrove swamps, in the Delta. And, you know, other guys who were up, Marines were up in Khe Sanh and everything. So everybody had a different take on the whole– on the whole– whole war, you know, which is what I read more and more into. Now I've got a library of probably close to 100 books, uh, of various things. And I still read them, you know, occasionally, especially now that we're looking at doing another project, I want to move into more. But, uh, yeah, that was the only way we found out was from– mail from home, or I got the newspaper from home sent to us. You know, I never got the newspaper from home that said that John had been killed. I– Mom may have– since we were a small town and a small newspaper, Mom may have gotten a hold of– at the time, I think it was Rick Epstein was the editor, and told Rick to make sure that copy of the paper didn't get sent to me. Uh, because I didn't know about it. That's– that’s, you know, that's something I never thought about up ‘til now. Uh, because I usually– I always looked forward to getting that newspaper, even though it was probably two weeks late, you know, by the time it got to us through the mails. But I always looked forward to it, you know, I never did see that.

[00:45:09]

So, you were regularly getting this. This is your– pretty much the only source of information about what was happening in Vietnam, but through home.

Yeah, through home, you know, because it was on the six o'clock news with Walter Cronkite every night. You know, and, uh, Cronkite used to tell it like it was.

Yeah.

He would say, this is not a war we're gonna win. You know, this is– this is just not. Unfortunately, I think that war in effect I know was more political driven than anything else. It was, uh–

How did that make you feel ‘cause you were there?  And this, you also feel that way.

Well– We started, you know, I started getting mail from home, either from family– not so much family, but from guys who I served with over there and had already returned home. And I, you know, we would all get letters back. “Hey, guys, when you come home, make sure you take your uniform off before you get into the airport. Because things aren't as we think they should be. Nobody is proud of you doing your service. They're gonna call you a baby killer. They're gonna call you every name in the book. And, if you get your uniform off, maybe you won't get picked on so much.” But coming through San Francisco airport, I had an elderly woman spit on me and call me a baby killer. And I'm like, “Damn, it's true.” And– so I mean, that was– I couldn't wait to get home. Get out of the uniform and kind of forget about it. Even though–

When did you come home?

[00:47:05]

I came home– Let's see, I went over on October 2nd, I came home, because I extended for ten days so that, when I did come home, they had a program where if you had less than five months to serve in the military when you got out of Vietnam, they would just give you an early out, they say, “Okay, you did enough.” So– you know, when I got home, I basically got off– got that uniform off and, and you know, kind of tried to filter back into the life I had left when I went over there. Uh, but it was hard because you'd hear people talking about Vietnam. And, you know, by then I started to grow my hair long. Uh, you know, I was just, I was anti-war at that point.

So did you follow the advice? Did you take off your uniform before?

Oh, Yes. Absolutely. I did it before– [phone rings] Just a minute. Okay, I muted it. Ah– Okay, where were we? [laugh]

You said you took off your uniform?

Oh, yes. Yeah, I did take off my uniform before I got into San Francisco. Because the planes bringing us home from Vietnam always landed in the middle of the night, like, two in the morning, or whatever, that was to keep the crowds down.

Oh wow. They knew.

Yeah, so there wouldn't be as many people to meet us. But, you know, so we always landed in the middle of the night. Now, they're supposed to out-process you. So you should get a full physical, you should have, you know, everything you should talk to– psychiatrists and all this stuff. Well, that didn't happen either. I said, like I said, I think we landed at two in the morning. We went through a medical, to a doctor, he said, “How you feeling?” And I said,
“Oh, I feel pretty good. Especially now I'm home.” “Okay,” he would stamp our things, “he's fine.” You would go through everything. And within a matter of hours, we had another Sergeant come up, he says, “Okay, you guys follow me.” And we followed him out the door and out to the gate of, the, uh, airport. He opened the gate, said, “Have a good life!” And we walked out. He closed the gate. And that was it. Uh, we had, uh, vouchers, for– for plane fare home. So for my case– it was back to, actually, JFK. I don't think Newark was even there, or at least as big as an airport as now. Uh, so we went to JFK. And– I did have my uniform on for that. Uh, I actually changed in the bathroom of the flight back home, because I knew my mom and my family was going to be there to meet me. And I thought it was best that I showed up in my uniform. So I did put it back on. And there's– in the fact, I think I show up a couple of times in– in both programs, you know, getting out of the car at home in my uniform, walking towards the farmhouse, taking my uniform coat off, and throwing it over my back. And that particular scene was used so much because the producer said that was a– that was a soldier who wanted to put it behind him. He took his uniform–

Symbolic.

Threw it over his shoulder. ‘I want nothing to do with this.’ So that always showed up. Some reason that turns out to be a very popular scene in both the– projects.

[00:51:06]

So when you did come back and when you– were done with the first couple days. How did you resume? Like, I mean, basically, they expect you to live your life like, “Go back!” [laugh] Like that was the sentiment.

Right, that was it. Uh, all right. When I got back, now, I could have gone back– Before I left, I was working in a quality control lab for, uh, one of the local paper companies. So I was, uh, you know, it was shift work, but I was in a laboratory testing paper and all this other stuff, you know, and I knew I had X amount of time to go back to that job. And they had to keep it for the veterans, you know, whatever job–

Oh, that was the law.

Right. It was by law that when we came back they had to take us, but– I had a few months to do it. Uh, there was one of the guys from the other platoon. His name was Don Suydam. And he had been wounded, and I had helped put him on the medevac chopper, uh, to take them out of there. His aunt was the head of the unemployment office, the local unemployment office in Easton here. And she had written me and told me, “As soon as you get home, you come see me.” So I went to see her and she stamped. She says, “You have three months of unemployment.”

Oh, uh huh.

So, I didn't have to do anything for three months except, you know–

Readjust! Big Job!

Readjust, and try and catch up with as many girls who had written me while I was over there. You know, uh, it was– Yeah, I got my, uh, I had ordered a new car, but General Motors was on strike and I couldn't get it wired right away. So I bought a used car. But it was still, you know, it was a fast car. It was a muscle car.

Yeah, you're going back to your old interests.

Yeah, I'm gonna be back to street racing and, you know, the things I enjoyed doing. So yeah, I was able to do that because Mrs. Suydam gave me those three months, you know, without having to report in every once in a while. So that was–

Before I forget, I wanted to make sure we have it in recording, what was your unit called when you were in Vietnam?

Okay, I was in Delta Company, Second Battalion, Eighth Cavalry of the First Cavalry Division. Our call sign was Angry Skipper.

[laugh] Okay.

I could never figure that out because I'm gone– You know, somebody's gonna think that we're, you know, ticked-off boat captain or something, you know? Like why angry Skipper? It wasn't until I started going through reunions that I found out the actual reason for it.

What was it?

[00:54:24]

Well, it was our first commander. Company Commander. At the time Captain Scholes. Ed Scholes. Ed Scholes was the company commander. Some guys called him dent head D-E-N-T because–

Dent?

Dent because he had been hit by a piece of shrapnel, and he had a little bit of a dent. So some of the guys, maybe not to his face, but he was known as dented head.

Aw–

[00:54:58]

So– But he was a very, very strict commander, and he, you know, you didn't want to cross him because he gets very angry. So I think that was– that was the beginning of Angry Skipper. Uh, and ever since then, you know, our captain would always be Skipper Six. And when– I was his RTO, I carried the radio. At first for the squad, then for the platoon, and then eventually for the captain of the company. So my call sign was, uh, Skipper Six India, and, uh, Skipper Six Actual. So you know, I, like I say, I carried the radio, it was– it was heavy. I still have a radio. It's not the one I carried. But I have the same type of radio out in my little man cave out there where I have my, uh, I have my books and everything else I have in the garage.

Your memories?

My memories. Yeah, yeah. Uh, so I mean, I look at that. Uh– it brings back some memories. I always tried to make them the better memories. I mean, once in a while I do delve into the darker part of it. And that's why I take all these anti-depressant pills every day. [laugh]

So when you came back, I read that you weren't allowed to join the VFW. But were you able to– I don't know what the benefits were like for veterans then. Was there a medical facility that you can attend for, like, PTSD or anything like that?

[00:56:52]

Right, no. Uh, there was no real benefit. I mean, basically, you joined the VFW because all our fathers, uncles, whatever, had come home from World War II. And they joined right away. You know, and that was the thing. So if you belong to the VFW in town here. Uh, the doctors belong to it, everybody belonged to it. So yeah, you had a certain amount of privileges that went with that, you know, you were always looked after, I guess I would say. But, by the time we came home, the next generation, they already figured out or– it was in their mind that we had lost. We had lost the war. And we were the first military to lose the war in America's history. So that was held against us. And I mean, my father wasn't in the VFW because he didn't serve. He was from Portugal. But a couple of my friends in the area here, uh, their fathers were members and they tried to join, and their fathers told them, they weren't– They weren't, uh, they weren't wanted.

They weren’t welcomed to join the– the–

Yeah, we were not welcomed. We were not welcomed. We– we were an embarrassment. So–

You, as an individual, not as a– I mean, it was the system or the government.

Yeah, yeah. I mean the government lost the war. I mean, there was always a way that we could have won it. If we wanted to go– you know, full war. It just never seemed to us– Every time we get the situation where we can take the upper hand, it seems we got pulled back. Like, when we went into Cambodia. I went into Cambodia in May– when we did the incursion. And for us infantry guys, it was payback time. We finally– because up to this time, we would get ambushed right along the border. They would run back across the border, and we couldn't follow up. And it was always a thing of, you know, “Boy, one of these days.” And in fact, there were a couple of times, it's not recorded, I'm sure. But there were times that in an ambush, we would send a small squad across the border, which was usually a river across to the other side, and ambush them when they came across. Of course, if we had gotten into trouble on that side, we couldn't call artillery in, they weren't allowed to shoot over there, we couldn't get air cover, or anything. So we took it on ourselves. But we did that a couple of times. But when they finally said, “Okay, we're going to– We're going across the border,” and it was like, “It's payback time.” And we were actually excited about going over there. As excited as you could get a bunch of guys at this point who– sorry to say we're bloodthirsty, we had lost friends already. We– It was you get turned into a whole different person, you are very cold-hearted. Like I said, we couldn't wait to get over there. And, uh, when we did get over there, within the first two days, we found this enormous cache of weapons and everything. And we spent like two weeks just emptying these caches and these– these bunkers. And so we didn't, we had limited contact over there. I know we would send a patrol out once in a while and you catch a couple of NVA [North Vietnamese Army]. But most of them had been told to just, you know, stay away from the Americans, you know, just get out of there and leave the caches.

[01:01:00]

But, you know, we felt every bullet that we found is a bullet that may have killed a fellow, you know, so we were giddy almost, you know, unloading. And then, “Oh, machine guns!” and you know, “Ammunition, artillery shells, rockets,” you know, “Boy, this is great,” you know, “We're gonna, we're gonna put such a setback on them,” which we did for a while. But then, you know, after that, everybody knew that we're going to pull out eventually. So even before I left in October, it was kind of known that everything is going to step down. We're not going to be doing the Search-and-Destroy missions like we used to. We're basically just going to bide our time and, uh, set up the South Vietnamese army so that they could do the fighting better, you know.

So the morale there already was–

It was already gone down. Yeah. Like I say, we were getting letters from home, saying that the American public wasn't behind us. And– and, uh, we were kind of catching it from both ends. We weren't– we weren't really wanted in Vietnam anymore, and we weren't really wanted at home. It put many, many, many guys into situations, which later became PTSD.

Right.

And, and ever since I retired– One of the guys in our reunion groups. His name was Mouse, Mike McGhie.

[01:02:44]

Mouse had started the reunion, uh, group, and, uh, did a lot of research finding us, you know, inviting us to the reunions and everything, we got to go to the reunions. And Mouse was always– The first time he met me, he said, “You do have some issues, you do realize you have PTSD.” And I said, “Yeah, you know, maybe I do. I don't know.” You know, I mean, I– I worked every day I haven't, uh– You know, I thought I was doing my part in society again. But he said, there's– there's things that you should think about. And he kept pushing me every– I would see him two, three times a year and he kept pushing me, you got to go and see somebody at the VA.

Yeah.

[01:03:37]

Or, you know, a therapist or whatever. And Mouse, finally– Well, it was actually after, we were at a reunion in Fort Benning, amazingly so. Mouse and I– as always, we roomed together at the hotel. We were pretty much inseparable.

You were buddies.

We were buddies. Uh, we were probably the only one– or some of the–  Maybe out of five guys at the reunion, we were probably two that actually did smoke pot once in a while. That was another reason, you know, that we got together. Uh– we were at a reunion in Fort Benning. We were in a bus that was taking us to the Ranger School to show us that. And Mouse kept kind of falling asleep on my shoulder. I said, “Mouse, you feelin’ okay?” He says, “Nah.” He says– you know, he had shrapnel in his leg. And he says, you know, “Ah, I gotta get back to the room and take a couple of more painkillers.” And, you know, he was ready to go back. So we did get back to the hotel, and we were sitting in what they call the, uh– they have a hospitality room that they would give us, you know, for all of us to be there. So we're there and talking and we're drinking again, of course, you know, and Mouse would kept laying his head down on the table. And I would take his drink in front of him and slide it out of the way back towards me. And even when his eyes closed Mouse’s hand would reach out, and take his drink and pull it back. And– anyway, Top Gun and I, another one of our guys, he said–

So many nicknames.

Yeah, Top Gun. Top Gun was the gunner, you know. He was a machine gunner. So it was us. We all had nicknames.

What was yours?

Uh– I think they called me, Spud. Spud. And I'm not sure why, maybe because I used to say that I hated KP and would do anything to get out of it. I don’t know. Could have been but I always called Spud for some reason. We had Smiley, we had Blue we had, uh– Oh geez, there were, there's a whole bunch of guys. Everybody had a nickname for some reason. But anyway.

Top Gun though–

Top Gun, yeah. So Top Gun and I, we told Mouse, “Why don’t you get back to the room? Take a nap. We're gonna go out and get cheesesteaks and we'll bring one back for you.” “Okay,” so Top Gun and I went out when he, I don't know how we got out of there we went– Oh, I guess one of the guys had a car down there. So we jumped in the car. Went and got cheese steaks. Came back to the hotel. Mouse was on the floor and they were doing resuscitation on him.

Agh.

[01:06:37]

And by the time the medics, they got there with the, uh, you know, the, uh– the shock that they bring you back with, you know.

Yeah, I forget what it’s called.

And they shocked them once and I saw the one– one medic looked at the other and just shake his head no. So they took Mouse to the hospital, we all piled in a pickup truck and followed the ambulance to the hospital and stayed in the waiting room. Motion going back and forth and back and forth. And finally, a doctor came and told us that Mouse had passed. So I always thought when I got home– or not when I got home, but shortly after that, I did go to the VA. And I got, you know, went through processes and everything and they determined that yes, I did have PTSD and I was entitled to compensation. Which kind of allowed me to retire at the age of 55, after I lost my finger, because I was getting full benefits from the VA. Uh, I was getting Social Security, uh, benefits because, you know, I was still in– before I turned 65. So between the two of them, all our bills were paid. We owned our house, we owned everything. Uh, I still owned a part of their farm. So we, uh, we, for us, it was a no–brainer for me to get out of work. And there was other things I wanted to do. And one of them was to work with veterans, to help them get through their paperwork, the same way that Mouse had helped me. I always looked at it as paying it forward. So that's when I joined the VFW. By then, of course, most of them were Vietnam veterans we had. So it was, you know, we were welcomed then. In my very first meeting, I was nominated and elected commander. [laugh] I went, “What? I don't even know how to run a meeting,” you know? And it was, “Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're, you're gonna be the best for it and everything.” So I got stuck into it. But again, that helped me connect with other veterans, to help them with their paperwork. I knew the shortcuts by then to get through paperwork, and how to appeal any findings that the VA had. And I made it my business over the next, uh, you know, seven, eight years, well, I'm still doing, I'm still doing it. It is to help these guys get through. And one of them had– was good friend of mine, even before I went. Uh– When I came back, I had run into him and he basically had a drinking problem. He was behind in his rent, at, you know, in the apartment he had in town. It was just his life was going nowhere. And I had been telling him, “Come on, Mouse, I'll take you to the VA, and we'll see what we can get done here.” And he wouldn't do it. And he wouldn't do it. And he finally did it. I got him to go. There was a no-brainer that– that he had PTSD.

Yeah. His name was Mouse, too?

No, his name, [laugh] his name was Bud. Bud Riegle. And anyway, uh, it turned out when I got him to VA– it turned out that he had gone once like in 1993. He had gone down there, and so he was in the system. Now one other thing is, when you do get a benefit from the VA, you know, monetary amount, that amount is retroactively back to the first time that he had applied.

Oh, wow.

His first check from VA was $118,000.

Oh my goodness. That’s really big– Wow.

[01:11:15]

Which allowed Bud to, not only pay off his rent, to move and buy a little house of his own along the stream, like Bud was a big trout fisherman. This was like the best place that Bud could ever have gone. And his– he and his wife got back together, they were– everything was fine. His wife still to this day just hugs and kisses me for what I did for their family. But, so that was, that was the pay forward for me, you know, learning things. I'm still, like I say, I'm still helping veterans, I work pretty closely with our county VSO officer, a veteran's service officer. And I work pretty closely with Rich. In fact, he calls me sometimes to get some ideas from me. [cough] Excuse me.

What kind of paperwork do you help with? Um, you said, you know how to fast-track paperwork. Like what is that?

Right. Well. See, the first time you apply through VA for your benefits. You get one person, who– who goes through your records, and makes a decision on how much you're gonna get. Now, most guys, “Okay, well, I got twenty percent, which is like $400 a month or something, you know? Yeah, that's something.” And what I found out was– The first thing as soon as you get that notification, you want to take a piece of paper and say, date it, say “I wish to appeal your decision,” sign it, send it off. Now, the second time your paperwork gets looked at it's– it's three guys that look at it. So three people get to make that decision. And most times, they will give you another ten or twenty percent, maybe for tinnitus or something else. But as I said, as soon as you get that notice, you file an appeal. And then it goes to seven people, a board of seven to go over your records. And nine times out of ten, you're gonna get 100%.

100% of what?

100% of your benefits. For me, myself– that's a little– that's a little over $3,000 a month.

Wow. So what? How do they calculate that?

Ah, you know what, I don't know exactly. They're parameters. It goes through– Let's see the report from your psychiatrist. Let's see the report from your other doctors here. Uh, they base it all on that, and especially if something that you had gotten a benefit for, say for tinnitus, you might have gotten 20%. Uh, the next time you go if you want to see another hearing doctor, and if he says your condition is getting worse– then your appeal has, has, has momentum.

Yeah.

“Sorry. It's getting worse. We need to do this.” So– like I say, it's $3,000 a month and it's tax-free. And between that and social security, which is for me is $2900, I think. So I get almost $6,000 a month.

Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:47]

Which is more than enough, than we need to, you know, live. Uh–

Yeah. All expenses and all.

It was– it was a no-brainer for me. I mean, it was, “Yeah, let's start doing things you wanted to do. We're gonna travel, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do that.” You know–

Are there a lot of veterans who have not taken advantage of this benefit?

Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And they're still– Much like me back then– It's like, “Hey, I've got a full-time job. I've never missed work. I can't possibly have PTSD. You know, I, you know, I have a normal life.” But it's– it's the background. It's how you react to things. Uh, your attitude, depression, you know, all that kind of factors in here. And– at the time, we were having a little problem with our son. Uh, in high school, he was– he was number one in his class. He was extremely intelligent as a sophomore. His girlfriend, who was a senior, was number one in our class. So two very intelligent people here. And decided that they knew more than their parents did. And, uh, Chad started staying out later and later because Amy had her license and, you know, was doing things that– Seniors, they didn't have to be at school every day. You know, it was– the seniors had a lot of things. And I kept telling Chad, “Hey, you're not, you know, when you're a senior, you'll have those benefits. But right now, you're a sophomore, you need to come home, get your homework done, and whatever.” Basically– Chad ran away. And contacted our minister who came and picked him up and called me and said, “Hey, I've got Chad, he's fine.” You know, whatever. Things just went out of control. And– we couldn't get Chad to come back. And eventually, Chad and Amy basically sued us for emancipation.

Oh, wow!

[01:17:04]

So at 16 years old, he sued us for emancipation. We did not let the suit go to completion, because the judge told us, he says, “I'll tell you what, Mr. & Mrs. Silva, these two kids are three steps ahead of us. They know what they're doing. They have researched it on the Internet. They know what they're doing with this claim.” So at 16 years old, we had to give up Chad. And he lived in the county shelter for about a month until another family took him in, which was just devastating to Beth and I, that this other family is taking them in because supposedly, we're not family enough for him, I don't know. He, uh, he graduated as a junior from high school. So he got a full scholarship to the college that his girlfriend was going to. So he got to catch up to her by a year. Uh, this was out– it was Messiah College. And, uh, the two of them got married. And so for twelve years, we had no contact with our son. And– because this girl had driven a wedge between Chad and his mother, I mean, just– just drove a wedge that, “Your mother is just, you know, not good for you,” whatever. She just drove a wedge that I couldn't believe. It just devastated us. Eventually, after a couple of years, uh, I guess they'd been married– so about ten years, I guess, into their marriage. He came home from work one day, he was working for the Navy out there. He was in charge of a lot of their computers. He came home from work and the locks had been changed on the house and the bank accounts had been cleaned out. And she took off. So, I mean, Chad, he rented another apartment, and he basically almost didn't have the money just for the deposit to get another apartment. And, uh, but once she had left him, he started seeing the errors of his way and contacted us, and little by little we got back together, and now we're a close family again. We're, you know, super close. He's got a new girlfriend. He just bought a new house. Uh, we go up every couple of weeks, he's only up in Poughkeepsie there, that area. So it's about two hours up the road. And it's so we see him quite often now. And again, we're, we're a very loving and happy family again.

So glad to hear that.

[01:19:56]

Yeah. But you know, it's those little things. Like I said, the reason I met my out-of-VA therapist was that the state had ordered Chad to see him and I– we as the family had to go and see this therapist as well. And I noticed in the therapist’s office, he had a lot of books on Vietnam. And he looked at me after talking for a while and he says, “You're a veteran?” And I says, “Yes, sir.” He said, “Vietnam?” I says, “Yeah.” “Did you combat?” “Yup.” “Any Awards?” he says. “Yeah, a couple– couple Bronze Stars. Couple purple hearts.” He says,

“You have PTSD.”

How does he know?

He just knew by the answers that I had been giving him to certain questions. He just was able to pick this out. And I guess, he kind of put it together with the problems we were having with Chad. And Vietnam veterans with PTSD often have family problems.

Oh, wow.
And that was one of the things he picked up on. Well, he's having family problems. He's a Vietnam vet, perhaps this is more his fault, than– than the son’s fault. And so anyway, he says, you know, he says, I'd like you to come start seeing me. And it was paid for by the VA. And I started seeing Dr. Todaro, who is now 84. And so he also lent weight to my, uh, application for the 100% on the benefits. He wrote a letter to the VA saying, you know, my mental capacities and whatever. So that was a big help in getting me through. I have remained very close friends with Dr. Todaro since then. In fact– we would say a lot of times– I would go for my session, but it would just be the two of us talking. He said, “You understand things actually better than I do in some cases.” So in some ways, he would often call me and say, “Hey, I've got a veteran that I'm working with. And here's where he was. He's– he's a little reluctant to tell me a lot of things. But do you know anything?” So he would ask me for information on this– this, you know, where this veteran was, perhaps, uh, how he should approach him, you know, so, Dr. T would always call me his assistant therapist. And, uh, you know, like I say, he's retired now, but we still keep in close touch.

What is his last name? How do you spell it?

T-O-D-A-R-O

I see. So is that when you were diagnosed with PTSD? I know you were mentioning around the time of your retirement. Um, that– when was your diagnosis about PTSD?

[01:23:17]

PTSD for the 100%? I got it in 2006.

By Dr. Todaro?

No, by the VA, the VA sent me, you know, my appeals had gone through and I got the letter saying you're now 100%. Uh, and how much I would receive every month, and et cetera, et cetera. Uh, so I know it was 2006, because, like I say, after about six or eight months there– again, looking at our figures on our finances, and everything. Uh, my wife was– she worked for the medical practices down the road here. And I said, “You know, you can– Why don’t you retire too, and we'll buy a little motorhome. We'll do some traveling.” And so that's what we did.

So this is around when you were 55.

Uh– Let's see, I was fifty, well– 55, I got my– Yeah– shortly after I turned 55. Uh, so 65, 75. Yeah, it was twenty, almost twenty years ago.

And when did you meet Dr. Todaro?

I met him. Uh– That would have been in 2000. 2002? I think 2002.

I see. So it was earlier.

Yeah, it was earlier that Chad had decided he didn't want anything to do with this again. So yeah.

And you reunited ten years later. 2012-ish.

Yeah, yeah. 2012-ish. You know, it was after we had retired and everything, uh, and– How did I finally get in touch with him? I was going to a car show in Harrisburg. And that's where he was. He was living in Harrisburg. And I called him and I said, “Hey, I'll come into Harrisburg. How about I buy you lunch?”

This is Chad.

This is Chad. And that was the first time I had seen him in twelve years. And we had lunch and, you know, had a little rapport between the two of us and, uh, you know, I think it was maybe a month or so later. It was like, “Hey, how about lunch again?” You know, and eventually, I got him– Because to get him with his mother was probably the hardest hurdle for me. Because she had, Amy had put such a wedge in there that I think it was hard for Chad to back out of that wedge and say, “Hey, you were right, Amy was wrong.” You know, it's a hard thing for somebody to admit that they were wrong. So it started slowly, you know, lunch here and there, we'd meet him. Uh– And he– he wanted to move to DC, uh, to get out of Harrisburg. And by that time, I was working also with the, uh, Vietnam Veterans, uh, Education System down at the Wall. And it was a program– We were going to get photographs of everybody on the Wall and the whole thing for the Education Center. And so I knew some pretty high-level, uh, people in the Pentagon. And, uh, I got one of them in the Navy. And I told them about my son and how smart he was. And he's already put nine years in with the Navy, uh, at their supply. They have a big, big place outside of Harrisburg. They control all of the Navy supplies worldwide from that one place. And Chad had worked with them on his summer vacations from school. So he already had, uh, you know, experience with them. So they were waiting for him when he graduated with a very nice, uh, offer.

[01:27:33]

Yeah.

And within a year, they were sending Chad, to either Tokyo or Sicily, because those are the two places where they– the Navy controls that part of the world. So you know, you know, Sicily because that's the Middle East, and Tokyo because that's the Far West or the Far East. So, you know, they were sending them around to work on their computers. So he, you know, they valued him terribly. Uh– But he just wanted, he wanted to go, he wanted to move to DC. So in having these connections, uh, he did get an offer from the homeland– the Department of Homeland Security. And now he heads up a division there. It's basically for the Transportation Safety Board. Uh– Chad is in charge of– all the time, divisions like that are getting ideas from various individuals, companies, uh, whatever, we've got a new scan unit that we think would work in the airports, or we've got to do something else, or new something else. It's– it was– it's Chad's job to analyze those, uh, units or whatever that these people are advocating, and decide on whether, uh, they're worth looking into or not.

Yeah.

So that's basically his job, is to analyze these things that are coming in and give them the green light or, you know, put it into the circular file next to his desk. You know, just dump it in the garbage.

How did he end up in Poughkeepsie?

Okay, when the pandemic hit. Chad, while he was living in Arlington– uh, the pandemic had just started, there was a climbing gym, pretty close to where he was staying, you know, one of these indoor climbing gyms. And so he started doing that just to have something to do. Yeah.

Otherwise, you're in the sixth-floor apartment and you really can't go anywhere. So he started doing that. He developed a love for it. Uh, he started going and climbing outside. So we would climb– there's a place in West Virginia that they would climb. Well, up next to Poughkeepsie is a place called Shawangunk Mountains. It's an Indian name. And it's the best climbing on west of the Missi– or east of the Mississippi. And he would drive up there from Arlington, sometimes, but it's like a five-hour drive just to go up for one or two nights on the weekend and drive back. So they allowed him to start working from home. So he got the okay to move to Poughkeepsie, which he did. Uh, and that way he was closer to his climbing love. So he’d go climbing a lot more. Uh, he wanted to get out of that apartment because he just didn't– Smoking sirens would go off in the middle of the night. It was just crazy. So he wanted to get out of there. He did. He got another townhouse just outside of town but then found a house that he and Molly really liked, that was for sale. So we gave him a little hand with his deposit on the house so he could buy it. Uh, but the reason, like I said, the reason he moved there was to be close to his climbing. He is to the point now where, well, he's been to Yosemite twice already. He's already gone– he's already gone up El Capitan about halfway, just, and that's 3000-feet straight up. And to test– he's got all the equipment. He, they sleep on portal ledges up there, you know, tied in at night?

Yeah.

Because he takes three days to climb these things.

Yeah, so scary.

[01:31:50]

Yeah. You know, he'd send pictures back and I'd say, “Don't send me the photos until after you're on the ground.”

Yeah, I know. I would be nervous.

But anyway, he already has his flight to go back out there in October, and they will climb it in October. And that is– that is the ultimate rock climbing in the United States is to climb El Capitan. So you know, that's– that's what he'll be doing. And we've met his friends that are also climbers, because now he's got, he's got a house, a three-bedroom house real close to the climbing–

Yeah. Everyone wants to visit.

So he’s become very popular. [laugh] But the people he climbs with, most– let's see, Veronica, is– is an attorney in Boston. Chase is a doctor in San Diego. Uh, a lot of his climbing partners are professionals. And I think it has something to do with the focus you need to climb. You know, I’ve– I've often asked him, you know, “Why do you keep going up?” He says, “Well, it's the only way out really. You really can't climb down.” [laugh]

It's an interesting idea.

Yeah, you can't see where you're putting your, or your feet, when you climb down. Whereas you know– you know where you're putting your hands as you go up. So, you know, because it takes a lot of focus. But they just seem to enjoy it so much. I mean, I've gone out with him a couple of times to watch him climb. And the people out there all have this big grin on their face. They’re all, “Oh, hello, how are you doing? My name is so and so.” They just seem such a happy bunch of people that are doing it. So you know– Beth and I often say, “Hey, you know, going back to the day, Chad could have been living somewhere in a box in New York City doing drugs–”

Yeah. He found his thing.

And he found this niche. And it has turned out so much better. So we are indeed fortunate. We count our blessings all the time.

Chad is your only child?

Yes, Chad is our only child.

Do you see the similarities? His desire to be adventurous, and you and your buddies?

Yeah, I do in a way, you know. Because like I said, when I came out, I went back to work in the laboratory for the paper company but the laboratory was completely stainless steel. The walls are stainless steel, the ceiling– Everything was stainless steel. And after living in a jungle for a year. I couldn't take it. I just could not take this– not being out in the bush. And I craved more excitement. And one of my friends had been working as an ironworker. And he said, “Why don't you–” He says, “We're looking for a couple of guys.” He said, “Why don't you come and apply?” He says, “It pays really good.”

[01:35:08]

So, I went and I decided to become an ironworker. So– I got my excitement back again. I got to, you know, I'd be walking around on a six-inch beam, four stories up. Uh, but I got my excitement back again. It just– I felt better about it, you know, it just made– made more of my life complete doing this. And as I said, it paid really well. I moved my way up in the business. Uh, I became a foreman. Then I became a general manager for a steel erection company that also did crane rentals. [clears throat] Excuse me. And eventually worked into a partnership. And, uh, we had that– Like I said, I was a general manager and, actually, controlling partner actually, for the– for the company. And we did really well. Uh, made money hand over foot. So much that my partner– uh, started taking longer and longer lunch breaks. And those lunch breaks, you know, they turned into– he wouldn't come back after lunch. He was always drunk. Basically, he just peed away the whole company. And, uh, eventually, well, he owed everybody, he owed all the, uh, the, uh, he owed all the banks and whatever, uh, you know, it is just, and he basically loaded stuff into his pickup truck and disappeared.

Oh my goodness.

And I know he– I know ‘cause they found out later, he moved out to Alpena, Michigan. And, uh, ‘cause I would get phone calls from various banks saying, you know, do you know where Ron Smith is? And I said, no, I dunno where he is, you know. “Well, he owes us $275,000 and whatever.” So anyway, he, like I say, he basically peed away, the– the company. Got to the point where I was trying to finish up another steel job for a fabricator, and I got the fabricator to pay me for the job before we did it.

Yeah.

Which was unheard of. Because I needed the money to make payroll.

Yeah.

And I said, Lou, I says, honest to God, we will finish the job even if I've gotta come out here by myself and weld the damn job together by myself. I says, I will finish that job. So we finished the job, uh, basically I dissolved the company and, uh, took off, got, uh, involved with another crane company who– That was a good move for me. I– I was, uh, I went there for ten years. I worked there and I worked my way up to– to pretty much the head person at that company. And that's when I lost my finger, one of the cranes kinda bit me. And, uh, so that's, that was the end of my crane company. But, uh, anyway, it– it gave us a, it gave me a good living.

Yeah.

[01:38:28]

Uh, put me where I am today. And then, like I say, three years ago, we– we sold the farm to my niece. So, you know, I was able to pick up another couple hundred thousand dollars. So, you know, we're in– we're in a very good shape. Uh, and it allows me to still continue with my veterans.

Yeah.

You know, to continue my work with doing stuff for them, and– and– and helping them get through their stuff. So it's– it's given me a purpose in life.

Yeah.

I– every year I do, we have a big parade in– in Frenchtown and, uh, every year, I– I do the, uh, the speech, the main speech for the– the whole day. And, uh, you know, so, I– I give accolades to the VFW, and– and the American Legion and, uh, all the military branches. But I always– the last two years I've been ending up my speech with gun control.

Mm.

Because I'm tired of seeing kids get killed. Uh, because I've seen what these AR-15s can do to a human body. And I tell the people we have to do something about gun– gun control. We have to, what– what I said is, I said, every one of you– This year, I said, “Every one of you out there,” I says, “That has the driver's license. You passed, a– a written test and you passed, a– a, uh, driving test.” I says, “Why not the same thing if you wanna buy a gun, you gotta buy, you've gotta pass a written test.”

Yeah.

“And you've gotta pa– pass a– a test showing you are– are proficient with the gun or whatever.” That's gonna keep the guns out of the 17-year-olds. The– anybody that has a question about 'em, that's gonna keep the guns out of their hands. And, you know, it– it seems like 50% of the school shootings and stuff is done by another student. And, uh, we've got to find a way to keep at least some of the guns out of there. I– I tell the people, “Hey, even one life is important, and, and we need to do this.” So, I– I– lately I'm getting a standing ovation. [laugh]

Yeah. We've seen way too many tragedies.

Yeah. I had. And, and I'm just, you know, I'm tired of it. I'm– I'm tired of, uh, the way things are– are protected in this country. Uh, you know, there's Second Amendment rights go so far, but– but the people, our– our ancestors that came up with the Second Amendment had no idea of what the country was going to turn into, you know, at this point. So there's gotta be a change somewhere. Uh, and it's– so it's something I'm gonna continue to work towards.

Yeah. Do you think that, because you have seen the weapons of war at war, um, you, you could see more clearly, like, why– why it doesn't belong in non-places of war?

It's not– it doesn't belong in the hands of citizens. It– it just doesn't, you know, I mean, the– the– the damage that these weapons do is just– if all these people would say, “Hey, no, you know, you're not gonna take [my gun],” if they saw one of these scenes. Walked into one of these schools after a horrific massacre like that. They would certainly change their minds. And, it– it takes– most of the veterans I know, especially combat veterans from Vietnam, they– they agree with my– my, uh, you know, with my thoughts on this, that– that these things just don't belong there. It's, uh, it's not something so. Okay! Continuing–

[laugh]

[01:42:21]

I like how you made friends and, uh, almost like family that you kinda brought into your life and how they affected your life and how you affected their lives.

Yeah.

It, also reminds me of– of the– the beginning you were talking about how, like, you– you love the adventure, but you always had someone else you were having these adventures with, and that was important to you.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it– it even worked into, like, my later years as an iron worker. I mean, there'd be six of us in a double cab pickup truck going to the various jobs, you know. So, you– you almost, um, depended on them a little as well. I mean, they were out there working with you.

You rely on them.

Yeah. Every one of them. And, uh, I don't know, it just, uh, it just seemed that, uh, all these guys– I mean, we would, we would talk politics sometimes when it got up towards election time. And some of us were Republicans, some of us were Democrats, and we would talk on the way to work or home from work or whatever. We would talk and discuss things, but it never got to the point that it's gotten to now.

Yeah.

You know, the– the, you know, it's like people look at everybody else like, “Oh, you're a Republican, get away.” Or, ”You're a Democrat, you're far left, get away.” It just, we would talk, and discuss, and maybe even argue a little bit on the way home.

Yeah.

You know, but as soon as we got home, we went to the tavern and we'd sit there and have a beer and just–

Yeah.

Bullshit, you know, and– and– and things like that we're forgotten about. But we never had, the– the issues that the country is going through now.

Yeah. The extremes.

The extremes, is– is just, um, I'm so disappointed in that.

Yeah. Well, I was thinking about all your friends and how– in a way, you tell a story like you– they had taught you a little bit about something about yourself, even when you had that conversation about, um, going to therapy with Chad, I feel like that that taught you a little bit about yourself and maybe how you experienced certain things.

Absolutely. And how– how I reacted to 'em and how I– Yeah, how I experienced and what I did about various things.

Yeah. And, uh, I'm sure other people feel that way about you too. You know, like as they talk to you, they, well, you also try, you, you're actually proactively, um, trying to help them get help. Get benefits, actual mon– monetary benefits, and things like that.

So yeah. We saw the guys are just, you know, uh– hey, we get older, some guys, you know, prepared for retirement better than others, some of them, uh, live paycheck to paycheck. And, you know, it's– it's, I don't feel that anybody that went through what we went through should have to do that.

Yeah.

[01:45:46]

You know, especially, I mean, especially combat veterans, and I'm not trying to put a difference between those of us who served in combat, and those of us that were rear support. I mean, there were nine people that supported every combat soldier in Vietnam. There were nine people behind you, from– from supply to, you know, uh, uh, paperwork, uh, everything. You know, there was so much applied and they were under, I mean, they could have been rocketed or mortared or, you know, just being in a war zone. Doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to be safe.

Sure.

Uh, but, you know, they did work an eight-hour shift back there, basically. And then you'd go have ice cream, go watch a movie something like this, you know, and, and whereas– so I always tell guys, look, I– I don't make a– I don't differentiate between what you did and what we did. You know, we all served our country. Basically, it wasn't our decision– to be, you know, somebody else made the decision, okay, you're gonna be infantry or you're gonna be, uh, you know, bookkeeping or something else.

Right, the roles.

So, it's– it's not your fault that you didn't get to go to combat. It's just the way things worked out. So I, like I say, I– I differentiate and I make sure when I'm working with a veteran, that, that hasn't seen combat, I– I make sure that I try to make him comfortable and know that he means as much to me and other veterans than– than, you know, a combat veteran would.

Even though you say you left the war behind and– and you just moved forward, [laugh], you– it had basically impacted every, um, step of your life.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You– even though I didn't know it, you know, I didn't realize that it was affecting. Like you say, you know, I– I didn't know why I, uh, you know, I wanted more excitement. Uh, you know, I– I was missing something in– in my life that– that made it more valuable and made it more worthwhile. So, yeah. Uh, it– it did as the years went on. Now when 2010 came along, and actually I was, uh, down at a reunion in, uh, Kentucky, and when I got home, my wife showed me a– an article in the newspaper, and it said that this production company just up the road in Easton was doing a– a show on Vietnam, and they were looking for photographs and film and whatever, and I have a bunch of photographs from back then. I've got hundreds. And she said, you know, my wife said, “Why don't you grow up and see him?” And I was like, “Yeah, Nah.” You know, and finally, I said, “Okay, I'll, I'll stop in up there.” And I– I stopped in and I talked to the one producer Scott, uh, whose father owned the company. Scott was a little bit younger than me. He's maybe five or six years old, younger. But anyway, Scott and I got into a friendship. Uh, we call each other Goof.

[laugh]

And he– I found myself– I would go– I was going to work every day. I was going up to the– to the, uh, studio, and at the time, uh, they had like fifteen editors that were college– college kids. Uh, working on computers, working on, you know, “I need– you have to find me, uh, film on this or something like this,” you know? Uh, and every day, like, I'd come in, and– and I'd get asked, uh, you know, “What kind of gun is this?”

[01:49:42]

Or, you know, is this right? And– and they'd show one helicopter, but the sound of it is completely different. You know, you know, it's a different helicopter. Uh, so I got into doing that, and my therapist at VA, when I told her that I was considering doing it, and she said, “Well, you're gonna have to be very careful. I'm not sure if this is going to trigger something or if it will actually do some good.” And, uh, I found out that in doing the research I was doing and talking, because I would talk to, I get phone calls– I got a phone call from the CEO of McDonald Douglas Aircraft, who had been a– a fighter pilot over there and had, uh, film of– an audio of his, uh, wingman getting shot down.

Oh my goodness.

And, you know, and I– I said we'd, you know– I says, “I just found that film the other day. We bought that film from, uh, the Navy Archives.” And I said, “I found your gun camera foot, or, uh, the gun camera footage for John McCain.” And he says, “Oh, John's a good friend of mine. I gave him a whole bunch of money for his, uh, run for presidency,” you know, and he says, “He'd probably really like to know that you have film of that.”

Yeah.

And I said, “Yeah, I do.” And it was two days later, I got a call from John McCain.

Oh, wow.

And he said, “I heard you have film.” [laugh] And I says, “Yes, sir, I do, and I'm gonna have to make a copy and I'll send it right out to you.”

Wow.

So, you know, I got to talk to him. I got to talk to veterans all over the country and get them to share their good times as well as their bad. So I found myself actually trying to find more good times, and– and in my conversations with these guys, try to tell 'em, “Hey, have you seen, have you gone to the VA? Have you looked into your benefits,” or whatever. So even across the country, I was affecting some veterans and getting them to go to VA, and– and looking more into it. So I felt I was doing something right. And I also wanted to make sure that this six-hour documentary didn't turn out like Apocalypse Now.

Yeah.

Because that wasn't how it worked, you know? That was, that just wasn't how it worked. I wanted to see the story told as it was. And I attended a meeting at the studio with some of the producers from History [The History Channel], and Scott says, “Why don't you come in and just sit in on a meeting?” So I sat in a meeting and they were talking and discussing various scenes that, uh, we had– they'd come up with. And I made a comment on one of them, and one of the producers said– looked at Scott and said, “Well, who's he?” And Scott says, “Well, he's been helping us. He is a Vietnam combat vet, and he's been there and saw that, and he's been helping us with all this other stuff.” I immediately saw the dollar signs in their eyes, because they figured, not only are we gonna do a documentary, we've got two veterans here who did that, saw that, done that, and we can make them part of the documentary, and they, they do, actually, my interview with History Channel is– is part of the second disc in that particular, uh, CD, uh, set section.

[01:53:26]

So, you know, I– I got to feel that I'm making sure this is done right. That it's not just glanced over, uh, that people, because a lot of people were like, uh, “Are you gonna really put those bloody scenes in there?” “Well, I don't know how else to get it across.” And– and it was to a point, there were– there were times where we butted heads with History on– on what we were gonna put in there, but, and sometimes I won and sometimes I lost. [laugh] But I– I– I feel that the end product did explain Vietnam as it was. As it was as close to as it was as– as could be told on television. So–

And you thought as, um, your therapist said, was it helpful or was It–

Yeah, she, you know, because I check back in with her, uh, I'd go and see her like every month, and she– she would question, uh, me on, you know, “Well, how's it working out?” And sometimes I'd take something with me that, uh, we were working on or something. Uh, I know I took a real rough cut of the first hour to, down to the next year's, uh, uh, reunion, and I showed it to the guys down there. Some of the guys had to walk out of it because it brought up too much, triggered too much. But the rest of the guys said, “You're– you're– you're telling it like it is for once, you know, this is– this is the– America's gonna see that they shouldn't have been spitting and calling you names.”

And that's how you see it, like the way–  We have been watching a lot of pop culture with Vietnam War [chuckle] as the topic. Right? So we have so many, um, ideas of what it was, but then it's, um, I feel like you don't think that that's– that portrays the– the true events or how you experienced that in your life.

Right.

Um, so do you think that you're doing, um, something to finally, like, show the version that you know? Because it hasn't been done before.

Exactly. I– I felt it back then when– when– when it came out on, um, Veteran's Day in 2011. It is when it came out, uh, that's when they showed it for three nights in a row. They– they did two hours each night, but, you know, uh– Yeah, I– I felt that it was– we had come across something that actually showed things as they are, and, uh, I know– I know I– I would get, uh, comments from various people saying that, you know, “We never really knew that,” you know, and– and, “This, that, and the other thing.” Uh, and, “You've opened our eyes,” and, and that's one thing I– I'd love to hear when somebody says, you've opened our eyes. Maybe a, it may be a little late, but–

Better late than never.

Better late than never. And maybe I can change a few minds on– on how we send our– our– our sons and daughters off to war.

In the future, and now.

In the future. In the future. Uh, Afghanistan was turning into the same thing that– that Vietnam was.

Right.

[01:57:00]

You know, we– we could have won it, but we didn't. We're just standing there and we're taking our licks. And, uh, you know, that, that really, that bothers me to this day.

Right.

Uh, but the more I work with my veterans and– and people and explaining things, the more I feel that I'm– I'm starting to make a little difference and– and getting ideas put into people's mind that they can, uh, draw on, uh, maybe I can, uh, get some interest in the people to read another book or to read something else, or to watch something else. It's, uh, it's– it's like I say, it's– it's– that's– that's pretty much my– my purpose in life now.

Yeah.

As well as– as getting older and [laugh] and having my knees hurt a little bit and my back hurts, and, you know, oh, that's what happens when, you know, not only Vietnam, but then I come home and being an iron worker is a pretty tough, tough life.

Yeah.

And, uh, you know, so there was always broken fingers and this, that, and the other thing. But, uh, I just felt that–

It sounds hopeful.

Yeah. Uh, I am hopeful, uh, I think especially now that, uh, veterans of our age are in– in government.

Yeah.

You know, a lot of our older ones are in government and do know a certain amount about, you know, the Vietnam, or at least they were growing up in the same atmosphere.

Yeah.

As we were, you know, just by watching the 6 o'clock news.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, anything, but at least they had some idea. So I feel it's a little easier to get some of the veteran benefits through, uh, you know, although some of our presidents don't obviously see the same way I do. Uh– but hey, I, we've gotta– you can't just stand by and watch things happen.

Yeah.

You know, and– and even though, you know, sometimes I think to myself, “I'm only one person, they're not gonna listen to me.” And sometimes I gotta smack myself and go, “Hey, it starts with one, it starts with one person.” So I, you know, to this day when I die, I'm gonna feel pretty good about, “I did okay. And I did okay by my brothers.”

You, you said the– the word valuable before.

[01:59:33]

Yeah.

When we were talking about adventures and, um, needing something that required, um, you to, uh, rely on others and others to rely on you–

Yeah. And stretch– stretch your limits a little, stretch your abilities past what you think you can do.

Yeah. So that's what you're doing now, you're–

Yeah, pretty much. You know, I'm– I'm just, as much as I can, I– I go to my meetings, like I say, I was, I was a commander for seven years. The only reason I stepped down last year was– I'm getting enough younger guys into it now from Afghanistan or something, and these younger guys gotta start learning on how to run a meeting and whatever. As long as, you know, every year when we come up with nominations, who's, you know, “Who would like to be commander,” and it gets very, very quiet. So that's– that's kind of why I was hanging on. But now I've got a couple of new guys in there. They're doing a terrific job.

Yeah.

Uh, one of us actually is, uh, in New Jersey. He spends almost every day in, uh, prison facilities working with, uh, homeless veterans and whatever.

How wonderful.

Get them jobs when they get out, uh, you know, he just, Bob Looby is just, he– he– he– he works with veterans ten times more than what I can do. He's just, that's his purpose in life. And, uh, he– he's doing a great job. So, like I say, I've got guys that are doing a good job. I've got a– a guy that was an accountant, so he is doing the finances. Uh, everything's working out pretty good. And, uh, yeah.

You passed the baton.

Yeah. Uh, I passed the baton and they still asked me, uh, “Don't you wanna be a project chairman?” “Yeah, No, I'm pretty good. Just where I am.”

Yeah.

And I, you know, I– I still do a lot of chairmanship on a lot of the programs. We– we give out $5,000 scholarships at our local high school. Uh, for essays. Essay contests. Uh, so I worked really closely with, uh, the teachers and– and the principal out there and the students. And, uh, I'd like to actually, the principal I was working with Adrian, uh, she stepped down, her father was a Marine in Vietnam, and he passed away a few years ago, and I think Adrian took it very, very hard. So I think that's why she may have stepped out as, as principal. So I don't know the new guy as well, but, uh, I'm attempting to. I know I will. And I– I wanna go out there with one or two of my guys and give a presentation.

Yeah.

Whether it's, uh, you know, after school, during school, whatever. Uh, you know, I– I would really like to come out there and share some experiences with these– these kids.

Yeah.

[02:02:35]

Um, especially ones that are giving thought to going into the military when they graduate. And, uh, actually, uh, one of them, uh, is, is the son of a good friend of ours, and, uh, his name is Mc, uh, McCaslin. McCaslin Miles. Uh, he was accepted into West Point last year.

Wow.

So he's just finished his plebe year, his freshman year. Uh, I saw him just the other night. Uh, he's home, you know, for two weeks over the holiday. And I, you know, I says, “McCaslin, you've got a different aura around you now.” I says, “I– I see this big smile when– when we talk about training and what you've done.” I say, “I see this excitement in you.” And I told his mom, I says, “McCaslin’s gonna love whatever he does in the military. He is gonna be a superb officer.” You know, he want– he wants to go airborne, he wants to do this, and he will. I mean, he's, uh, he's very, very smart. And, uh, he's– he's just gonna do great. So, uh, in fact, his brother, or no, it's not his brother, it's an, it's the brother of another kid that, two years ago, we got into West Point and he's going to, uh, the Air Force Academy. So that's, that's a family with two boys in the academies.

Impressive.

That's– that's an impressive, that's an impressive family.

Yeah. So you still support, uh, younger generations, um, serving.

Oh, Yeah. Oh, absolutely. There's– there's– there's nothing like the military to teach you respect. Uh, like McCaslin, McCaslin comes home, everybody he talks to, “Yes, ma'am. Yes, sir.” “No, ma'am. No sir.” It's– it's that respect that comes out. It's not like, you know, eh, uh, it, they teach you respect. I've– I found out that anytime I go near a military facility, uh, like Fort Benning, once you're outside of town and you run into, or, uh, uh, you know, soldiers out there and you see them holding the door for other people.

Right.

You know, that's an important thing. I– I think respect goes a long way into making people what they are.

Yeah. But that doesn't mean that, uh, they necessarily serve at war.

No.

The fact that they're serving the– the country by going to military, and that's–

Yes.

That's What's important. That's a– that's a commitment.

Oh yeah. Yes. Six–year commitment. You know, it's– it's, uh, yeah. You're– you're– you're gonna do, you better enjoy what you're doing because [laugh]

Yeah.

You're gonna be there a while. But, we, uh, on the, uh, in the spring when we give the, uh, essay awards to the students for their essays, we also get $500 to every student who is going to go into the military.

Oh, I see.

Uh, we give them, and I always tell them, this is, this is to buy boot polish, and, uh, [laugh], all the other things you are gonna need. [laugh]

[02:06:05]

So that's interesting to me because you, you said that you were coming home and you were– you became completely anti-war, but you're– you're, um, you want people to be prepared because, you know, they– the reason why they go into serving in the military is to basically prepare, right? For what could happen.

Yeah. For what may happen. Exactly.

Yeah.

It's so– so, yeah, I'm– I'm very, and like I say, it's– it's– it's a– it's a good education. I mean, just going into the service is a good education.

Yeah.

Without being in college. It, it's– it's something that's– that's gonna teach you, like I say, respect. And that's the big thing. I– I wanna, and I think that they do the best after they come out of the service, as compared to some of the– the kids coming outta college. It's like they come outta college, they don't know what they wanna do.

Yeah.

You know, and– and they're not really sure or whatever. Most of the guys coming outta the service know what they wanna do. You know, they've already got a specialty.

Yeah.

Uh, and if they wanna go back to college, the– the service will pay for it. You know, the GI Bill will pay for it, so. Hey, it's, it's a win-win. As far as, uh, I'm concerned.

I'm gonna have to ask you a bigger question to end our, ‘cause it's been two hours now.

I know.

So I know it goes by really fast.

[laugh]

Um, I don't know. I– I'm just listening to what you're saying about these younger generations. Um, the reason why we prepare is because, we–we are getting ready, like we talked about. But does that mean is because you– you think that wars are inevitable?

Okay.

[laugh] Big question.

Big question. And I think I'm gonna have to go back to history and look at mankind in history. And there's always been a war.

Sure.

Doesn't matter if you are the Trojans and– and, uh, you know, it– it doesn't matter. Humankind is gonna eventually come up with some reason to, uh, argue or disagree with someone else, and that is gonna lead to things. No, I– I think unfortunately we are gonna see another war. I mean, I– I really, because I'm– I'm afraid that too fast people are gonna push the big button. And I– I guess in a way I'm looking at, we need to have people in the army because we need them sometimes to go quell a situation before it turns to war. So yeah, I think it's gonna happen, eventually, may not be in our lifetime. It could be a hundred years from now, 200 years.. Doesn't matter, somebody somewhere is gonna push a button or– or whatever, and we're gonna need to clean it up. So yeah. We need, we need our military if not for a, uh, you know, a reason for other people not to start something, uh, to be a deterrent. I guess you would say. Uh, but– but I'm afraid that, uh, just looking at mankind and especially Vietnam, we didn't learn anything. We didn't learn it. Uh, we didn't bring anything we learned to Afghanistan, uh, we lost, still lost a lot of people. Uh, you know, I'm– I'm– I– whenever I get near the Wall and I– I get a chance to go down there, I always go down and talk to a few of the guys–

At the wall, the Washington, DC wall.

Yeah. Yeah, uh, you know, it's just, it, I guess it's in our brotherhood type thing where we feel that we didn't get to say the words maybe that we wanted to say, or– or in my case, I couldn't– I couldn't get to hear Mary and Frank saying, “I do,” you know, at their wedding. So there's, you know, I– I think there's things that we can still teach the– the world. I think there's still things and– and if we can either deter another war, or at least keep it down to a manageable [laugh], a manageable amount, you know, uh, I just don't think we learned enough, uh, in those two wars. I don't think politicians learned enough. Uh, the money is always the big thing, you know, when we're at war, the economy is wonderful. Uh, ‘cause you know, we're making items of warfare. So I hope that answers your question.

Yeah. And also makes sense, um, that you continue to want to educate people because you're– you're hoping for a different outcome.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And– and maybe, yeah, maybe I can change somebody's mind, and maybe they will be able in turn to change somebody else's mind.

Yeah.

So.

I'm sure you are changing many minds on your way to all these different events. You already changed so many people's lives, it seems like.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for talking to me. It's been such a pleasure.

Okay. I hope, uh, you got what you need and I– I'm looking forward to, uh, the 22nd.

Yeah. The performance.

‘Cause a lot of my friends, yeah, a lot of my friends are already members of ArtYard. Uh, so they're looking, you know, looking forward to it as well.

Okay. So you’ll come with friends.

They knew what, what, uh, crankies were.

Oh, they did! [laugh]

[laugh] Yeah.

I didn't know the name either.

[laugh]

It took me some time to figure it out.

Yeah. Some of 'em went, “Oh yeah. That's when they do this thing where they kind of roll the paper,” and I says, “Yeah!”

[02:12:51]

Yeah. Now it makes sense that it's called a cranky ‘cause it has a crank.

Yeah, it sure would. It sure would.

[laugh] So, okay. I'm going to, um, get this recording and then write a transcript and then I will send it to you by email and then you'll comment. Yes?

Okay. Sounds, sounds wonderful.

Thank you so much. I'll see you!

You have a wonderful day.

Thank you. You too. Have a wonderful holiday.

Yeah, holiday tomorrow. Have a wonderful one.

Thank you so much. Thank you. You too. Okay, bye.

Take care.

[02:13:26]