Raised in central New Jersey by divorced parents, Wiley Reading recounts his navigating childhood, K-12, and college, while grappling with puberty, sexuality, and gender identity. Wiley came out as a genderqueer trans man at the age of 25 and is now a self-described “Jack of All Trades” living in Vermont.

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TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by John Keller

New Brunswick, New Jersey

November 23, 2018

Transcription by Chrissy Briskin

00:00

Test. Great, so this is John Keller with, uh, coLAB Arts and the Rutgers Theatre Department. Uh, it is November 23, 2018 at about 10:15 in the morning and we are conducting an oral history interview today with–

Wiley Reading

Great. Um, and Wiley, where do you currently reside?

I live in Burlington, Vermont.

Okay, and we will just go ahead and get started. Um, where were you born?

I was born at Robert Wood Johnson Hospital, and I grew up in Metuchen, and I lived there, um, my parents are divorced, got divorced and my, uh, my mom lived in Metuchen my entire childhood, my dad moved around a little bit, but also in central New Jersey, so I’ve lived in New Jersey until I went to college.

Uh, how old were you when your parents got divorced?

Two, maybe? Um, one, I don’t remember, it was really young, like, before I remember anything.

Um, did you, uh, when you were a kid, and you were growing up in the borough of Metuchen, um, do you remember the first, kind of like, house you lived in?

Um, I know that we lived in a house across from the elementary school, but, um, the first house that I remember was in like, uh, like Metuchen is not a super economically diverse town, but our– where we lived was on the wrong side of the tracks, which is silly in Metuchen, we lived in, like, a development kind of out far away from everybody, and uh, we lived in one house there for a little while, and then we moved to a different house in the same development, and then my mom married a guy with some money for five seconds, and we moved to a big house in a different part of town, and then they got divorced, and then my mom moved into a small apartment with me for like a few months before I went to college. And that was– that was the deal.

Um, what are some of your earliest memories of your childhood?

Um, I remember going on vacation with my dad, and we went to New Hampshire, 'cause his wife is from New Hampshire, and I remember I really love TV, like, really love TV, and I always have, and I wandered out of our cabin and I couldn’t have been more than 5, I think I was younger, um, and I wandered out of our cabin and down to the lodge to watch TV through the window, um, and my parents freaked out 'cause I was a toddler and I was gone, and I got in a lot of trouble for that, and I also remember that there were feral domesticated rabbits hoppin’ around at, like, on the lawn. I remember that, um, I think that’s probably my earliest memory. I also remember falling off of a stone wall that I was walking on. This was also in New Hampshire, I don’t know why this was so, like, formative for me, but–

So what was your time, like, with your parents as a kid? They were separated when you were pretty young, so you kind of always remember them, uh, separated.

Yeah, I don’t know what it’s like to have two parents who are married to each other. Um, I think my mom assumed that I was damaged by the divorce, um, when in fact it wasn’t the divorce that was the problem, it was the ongoing, vicious custody battle that lasted for fourteen years. Yeah I don’t know what it’s like to have two parents living in the same house, so I don’t– I wasn’t really missin’ anything I don’t think. But it was a lot of, like, back and forth and it was a lot of code switching, it was a lot of, like, my parents are very different and there’s things like– one thing I remember specifically is, my dad was like a free range parent, he was kinda like, “go, just go do your thing, don’t worry about it.” And my mom is very anxious, so she’s very like, I wasn’t ever allowed to be barefoot at my mom’s. Ever. At my dad’s it was like, he didn’t care, so when he took me back to my mom’s he would pick me up and put me in the sink, and I would wash my feet off, because my mom would inspect my feet and if they were dirty, she would know that I was running around barefoot, and I would get in trouble. So it was like, a lot of little switches like that had to happen before I could go back and forth, and there was other stuff, too, like my stepmother, who my dad married when I was pretty young, so like she was my parent for most of my life too. She hated my mom, and like they were very dramatic about each other, so it was like there were a lot of things that I did at my mom’s that I wasn’t allowed to do at my dad’s and vice versa. So a lot of switching. But it was also nice that I think that if either one of them had raised me without the other, I would’ve– it would’ve been too much in one direction. Um, I got like my mom cared about a lot of stuff and, like, pushed me on a lot of issues that, you know, I needed a push on, but my dad was, like, there to ease the constant anxiety and helicopter parenting, so it ended up being stressful but okay, I think. 

05:35

And where did you– so were they both living in the same town or where–

No, they– uh, my dad lived in Scotch Plains Fanwood for a little while, then Plainfield, then North Plainfield, and that’s it. (Coughing). So moved around a little bit, but he was never more than about ten miles from my mom.

Um, and, uh, any siblings?

I have five younger siblings who my dad, um, and Martha my stepmom adopted when I was– the first was adopted when I was 8.

And do you have a close relationship with–

I don’t really want to talk about my siblings.

Okay, um, what was– do you remember kind of when you started school or what that period of time was like?

I don’t have a ton of strong memories from starting school, I do know some stuff that my mom has told me, um, my mom– the cutoff date, I’m born in late October, and the cutoff date for enrolling in the school year was the 31st, so I started kindergarten when I was 4. Um, and my mom, I think, truly believes that starting me in kindergarten when I was 4 instead of 5 led to all of my academic failures for the rest of my life. (Laughter) She’s like really, she’s like, “you weren’t ready.” Um, so that, but mostly I just remember, um, I got in trouble in school a lot. Mostly, it wasn’t like really doing anything really bad. I just didn’t really want to do what everybody else was doing or what the teacher wanted me to do. So a lot of like, it’s story time and everybody’s on the rug, I’m under a desk, like, um, stuff like that. Starting school, yeah, I remember, um, they do the– they take you in and they make you play with blocks and say your letters and stuff to kind of see where you’re at. I remember that. I remember doing that. Um, yeah. That’s–

You said your mom’s opinion of starting you at that young age kind of led to a lot of other things, do you have a different opinion?

I don’t know if that really holds up. Like, I think, you know, I agree that I’m kind of a late bloomer, so it’s– it’s– it probably would’ve been better to wait a year to put me in kindergarten, but I don’t think that could– I don’t think it has a lasting of an impact as she thinks it does.

Um, as a kid, uh, so you, were you always in a public school?

Yeah.

Um, did you have any, kind of like, childhood friends or–

Oh yeah. My, um, my school district is very small. Uh, I was with the same ninety-five kids my entire school career. I did go to school, I did one year of high school in North Plainfield with my dad, um but the other eleven years that I was in public school, I was with the same ninety-five kids, give or take like five kids who moved away and came back and stuff. Um, so it, I– I know that, um, small schools can be bad or good, but this particular environment, like, we were all pretty nice to each other. Like, there was drama, obviously, but like, overall, I didn’t really get bullied, um, there wasn’t like, nobody really did. Like a few people maybe, but it was really– the culture was overall, like, mostly live and let live. Um, and when you– when you know the same ninety people for twelve years, like, it’s kind of hard to be mean to each other 'cause it’s just, I don’t know. So it was alright, I had, um, I’d say probably a normal amount of friends and a normal amount of friend problems. Like, when we all went super hormonal in middle school, there was some drama, but mostly, um, yeah, I’m still friends with a lot of the same people that I was friends with in first grade. Like my best friend, Alaina, she, um, I’ve been friends with her for twenty-five years. And I have some other friends from high school too that are not from high school, from grade school that I’m still buddies with

Um, do you– so as a young kid, and then, kind of like, easing into elementary school years and that kind of time, you said you were, uh, you had mentioned that you were always getting into trouble. What kind of trouble?

10:12

Uh, most kinds of trouble. I, um, I was– I’ve never been a good student, uh, I just didn’t see the point of most of the school work I was asked to do. And if I don’t see the point of something, it’s very difficult to motivate to do it, so um, you know, it was– I was half right and half wrong.  Like sometimes it legitimately was busy work that had no point, um, sometimes it was just that I didn’t see the point as an eight year-old, and it would’ve been good for me to do it, but I didn’t. Um, so I never did my homework. I lied about doing my homework a lot 'cause my mom was obsessed with me doing my homework and I just couldn’t, um, and my mom and I clashed on school stuff constantly. That was like, our entire– I’m only now at 30 kind of like getting over how horrifying that, like, lengthy period of constant fighting was. So that gives you an idea of how stressed she was about school. But, um, yeah there was constant battles over homework. My dad didn’t care if I did my homework, um, and so I got in trouble for not doing my homework a lot. I got in trouble for not paying attention a lot, I liked to read or draw instead of paying attention, especially since a lot of the time, like, you know, the teacher assigns some reading and a lot of students learn best by, like, reading it and then having, asking questions or having like going over it, or whatever, I would just read it and I’d be fine, so I was so bored. Um, when we were like going over in great detail all of the things that I already knew, um, so I would just zone out and draw or read, and I got in trouble a lot for that, which is insane, but that’s how public school works sometimes. Um, I also didn’t–bI just didn’t care about the rules at all. Like I didn’t. I just didn’t. Um, so I got in trouble for, um, like being places I wasn’t supposed to be, trying to steal homework guides so that I could, like, get it done. Um, I got in trouble for– one time I started making these pom pom creatures in elementary school, and I started selling them to the other kids, and then I started making flyers and putting them on everybody’s desks so they knew about the sale. The principal shut that one down. Um, and I don’t know like trespassing, like I really– I didn’t like– didn’t understand or care about, um, the concept of like property lines, so I would just go into other people’s backyards, and they would call my dad and be like, “get your kid out of my yard.” (Laughter) Um, and yeah what else? Oh, I would fight too, like if I thought that somebody was, like, picking on my siblings or being an idiot or spreading rumors or something, I would fight them. Um, yeah, pretty much, nothing like sociopathic, I didn’t set fires or anything, but like pretty much anything else that you can get into as a little kid I got into.

Um, you had mentioned that you were interested in reading, writing, and then watching TV was–

I was not allowed to watch TV as a child. I wasn’t allowed to watch TV or have junk food. So now I’m a TV-junk food monster. Um–

What do you like about TV?

Uh, everything. I love TV. It’s my favorite. Um, I like– I love comedy, that’s my favorite, um, and I’ve– I’ve always loved– I’ve always loved, not that people, most people– most people like this, but I’ve always loved laughing and, um, and I– there was like a– there was a moment after college where I kind of discovered comedy the art form, versus watching something and thinking it was funny, and I got really interested in it. Um, in the concept that, like, comedy is more than just (coughing) laughing at funny stuff, and that there’s, like, ways to do it and techniques, just like other art forms, so I started watching this– this came from– I was watching 30 Rock for like the third time all the way through and I was watching– I had previously had a very unsophisticated view of 30 Rock, like I would watch– some episodes I thought were really funny and some episodes I was like, “well that’s a sexist joke.” And I didn’t understand the concept that it was skewering sexism rather than just repeating it. Um, and there was like a– there was a breakthrough when I was watching, are you familiar with 30 Rock? 

15:04

Mhm.

So it’s the episode where Tracy goes golfing with Alec Baldwin and he’s like Uncle Tomming it up, like he’s acting like, you know. And I was like, the first like two times I watched it, I was like, “this is really uncomfortable, like, oh God.” And then I was like, “OOOOOOOOHHHHHH, OOOOOOOOHHHHHHH!” He’s showing how, like, gross this is, that this is the expectation. I was like, “oh, like, there’s something else going on here.” And that, it took me a while to train my brain, um, and it took me a lot of– it took me a lot of time also to like– race stuff, like, obviously I care about it, but it’s not as personally relevant to me, 'cause I’m white, like it’s not– it gives me strong feelings of anger and injustice, but it’s not as emotional 'cause it’s not something I personally have to deal with, so race was an easy entry point for me. Um, it took me a little longer to understand and be able to accept the satire about sexism and stuff like that, because it's a little more emotionally fraught, but I started getting more, getting better at, like, understanding what was a good joke that I had previously not understood, and what was not a good joke, or they tried but they didn’t– it didn’t land or they tried to do something and they ended up doing– yeah anyway, the point is I got really interested in comedy, I’ve always liked TV just 'cause, but now I spend a lot of time, um, trying to find good comedy and picking it apart and thinking about it and explaining it to people and reading about it and stuff like that. Yeah.

Um, do you think it’s kind of also led to you writing or–

No, I think, um, it’s funny because I do write a lot, I’m a good writer, I get paid for my work sometimes, um, but I don’t think of myself as a writer because I don’t write very frequently. Uh, I do a lot of, um, it’s more that I’m just a wordy, I’m a verbose person. I talk a lot and I explain a lot and I’m pretty good. I know some people have a disconnect between talking and writing. I'm pretty good at just writing what I’m thinking, but I don’t love writing and I don’t– like, it’s not fun for me and I don’t do it much unless I think that there’s a need for it. Um, so like obviously when I was in college you write a lot of papers and, um, and then for a while I was involved in– there were two feminist blogs that I wrote for and I, you know, I was writing for them, but if I’m not like specifically hired to write about something, I don’t really write much.

Um, what was the– you had mentioned kind of the back and forth between your parents and, uh, kind of a custody battle back and forth. What was– what were your memories of that?

My parents just really hated each other and they had such different ideas about how to raise me and, um, they didn’t do a good job of working things out, so it dragged on so long, and I was in court a lot and, um, things were always getting adjusted and it was just like a lot of, yeah. My mom’s a lawyer, so she knew how to kinda get– she knew what she was doing in the legal system, and my dad didn’t quite as much, but he’s very stubborn and he really wanted his way, so it was just like a drawn out nasty custody battle.

Um, you mentioned, uh, I forget how you phrased it, kind of like, the– with your group of friends, the hitting puberty kind of like the hormonal, kind of like, big change over which is kind of a huge moment in– in all of our lives. Do you kind of remember that phase of being in middle school?

Yeah. My body is so weird. It, um, there were a lot of, like, puberty changes that happened to me really early, and then a few that happened really late. I don’t, like, know why that happened that way, um, so it’s like I think a lot of people it’s a little bit more sudden than it was for me. For me, puberty lasted from when I was about 9 to when I was 18. Um, so it was, like, a really long process and more subtle, I think, because it took so long. But I definitely was not, um, when I– when I was a kid, like, I know a lot of trans people are not like– there’s like a couple dominant narratives about trans people, one of which is like, “I’ve always known, you know, I was a little boy, I wore boy clothes, I wanted to play with the other boys, I wanted to do football,” whatever, so there’s those people, then there’s the other people who are like, kind of, went in the opposite direction, “oh God, I need to compensate for these feelings, I’m gonna be super feminine,” and those people are kind of uncomfortable with their early life. Um, I was super good just being like a prepubescent kid. I didn’t really feel connected to– luckily my mom– my mom didn’t know any better so she put me in dresses sometimes, but like she didn’t really– she was a little bit of a hippie in that she didn’t super project a lot of femininity onto me before I was like 10 or so. Um, so I just kind of didn’t really think about it and that was great. Um, I really didn’t, I wasn’t stressed, I was fine just being myself, um, and then puberty kind of forces you to choose essentially, um, and I knew, I didn’t know what was wrong, but I knew that this was like, awful, like I read (coughing) I read a lot about, you know, people going through puberty, especially girls going through puberty and how like, it’s complicated, there’ll be some things that you don’t like, and there’ll be some things that are exciting, and I was like, “this is all bad. None of this is good. I’m not excited about any of it.” Um, and I didn’t– there weren’t any stories where that was the case. It was always like, “getting your period sucks, but we’re all excited to try on our mom’s makeup,” and it was like, I was like, “no, that’s not–”

21:43

Were there any specific things that kind of came up, specific moments when you were like, this is not–

I got breasts really early and I hated them. Um, never once my entire life did I like having breasts. Um, I like never, I always wore like, really, um, I covered them up. I never wore anything even remotely revealing. I absolutely hated it. Never wanted them touched, ever. Um, and that was rough. I hated it. When I got top surgery, my mom freaked out. Um, and I was like, “I don’t think I can convey to you how sure I have been from the second I developed this tissue that it was wrong.” Um, and like just not– most uncomplicated decision I’ve ever made. Um, that was rough, getting my period was horrifying, um, it’s hard to pick out what is, um, I also have, I have, uh, it’s like a combination of a mental illness and a physiological problem. It’s called PMDD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder and it’s, um, basically what happens is that when you get your period the hormones, like, fuck you up real good, like they really, um, I’m sure you’ve heard of PMS, it’s like– it’s PMS on steroids, basically like I had a very severe case where I was like actively, like, suicidal almost every month because my hormones were like– and then most people– I also had a really severe case of PMDD, most people experience most of their symptoms, like, the week before they get their period, I experienced them almost all month. Um, so it’s hard to say how much of my getting my period was like, “oh no! This is wrong.” And how much of it was like, “I have this disorder that makes this experience catastrophically awful.” Probably a little bit of both, but those are two big things where I was like, “this is no good. Um, I hate this.”

Did that kind of occur almost immediately, or is that, did you kind of phase into–

Hard to say, 'cause I got my period really early, I was 11, um, so it’s hard to say what was just kind of puberty and what was PMDD rearing up, but it was probably– I probably had it for many, many years before it was diagnosed and treated.  

24:15

Um, what was your social life like at this time? Into the middle school phase of your life?

Um, sixth grade was rough, um, mostly 'cause I had this group of friends, who I was like– so in– they don’t have this program anymore because it’s a nightmare, but, um, they did testing on second graders and the smartest four second graders in every grade, er, the smartest four second graders were put into a program in third grade, um, that only had twelve kids in the entire program, it was third, fourth, and fifth, and we were like– we had special classes away from the rest of the school for like, to, like, challenge us, but the problem is that that socially isolated us from the rest of the kids in our grade, which, you know, and smart kids are already kinda weird, um, so they took weird kids and isolated them, um, socially, which was not a good plan. So, we got– we all kinda got– we all kinda got set back in our socialization, um, because we were taken out of the general population, but I had– I developed these really close friendships with these two girls, um, and we were like really super tight and then, but we were all crazy in naturally but plus also the lack of socialization. Um, so in sixth grade when we got out of that environment, we kind of, we fought a lot and there was a lot of drama, um, and that was really painful, like sixth and seventh grade was a lot of, like, us being mad at each other and (cough)– but then partially because the one of the two that I was closer to, um, lost her mind a little and, like, had to go away for a while, and stopped talking to me, um, and I had to kind of like move on, um, and partially because I kind of had a– a– a social– so when I was younger, I didn’t care as much about having friends, like, I liked my friends but I wasn’t as social as I am now. Um, and I always kind of, I was always kind of interested in why people did the things that they did and, um, like why people chose the people that they chose to be friends with and why they, you know, why people operated the way they did. But I wasn’t, like, super invested, I was like, “oh that’s interesting,” you know, whatever. I’m gonna go play with my horses now. And it was around like seventh grade where I was like, “oh, you know what, I bet you that if I study everybody, I can make friends with whoever I want.” Um, and I was right. I like, did like, six months of observing basically, observing, like, different groups of people and, like, like I said before, my– there were like popular kids in my grade, but it wasn’t– the popular kids weren’t like they are in the movies. They weren’t like these mean high-horse, you know, people, they were like, they were just people that everybody liked more. Um, there was a little bit of class stuff going on too, like they had nicer clothes, they could afford to go on nice vacations and stuff, but like, they weren’t terrible people, um, at all. And I was like, I bet you, like, I bet you if I observe them, like, I can make friends with them. And I did, so I, like, studied them for a little while and then I figured out how to do the things that you do to make friends with this kind of person, and I did. Um, and that was really, like, the– that was the opening up of my social life, I was like, oh cool, like I get to– first I made friends with everyone, and I, um, and then after a while of that I was like, “alright, now that I’m friends with everybody, I can start hanging out with just who I want to hang out with. Now that I have access to everyone, I can choose who I like best and I’ll just hang out with those guys.” So that was my super analytical entry into the social scene at my school.

So, at this time, you’re living primarily with your mom?

Yeah.

And, um, you’re, uh, at some point, you said your mom got remarried, and you moved–

When I was 13.

And what was that time like?

I hated him. We’re actually tight now, he’s my godfather, and, um, well he’s not technically my godfather, but I tell him to tell people he’s my godfather, because the man that my mom was married to for four years and has not been married to for fifteen years is a little bit of a mouthful, but I absolutely hated him while we were–

Why?

Um, well, the thing about the double edged sword with my mom is that my mom was like an extremely anxious and controlling parent, but because I knew her very well, there were– I could manipulate her in some ways, and I knew that if there was another person around it would be more difficult for me to manipulate her and I was absolutely right. Um, so I was not pleased with Paul, although he was so nice to me, he, like, you know, he did a lot of like Dad stuff with me, like, um, you know, took me to, like, batting practice and, um, bought me a lot of brownies, um, (laughter) we went a lot of cool places together. He doesn’t have kids, so I think he enjoyed some of that. Anyway, but yeah, I was mad about it for the entire time they were married, and then we made up after they got divorced.  

30:03

What was that– how did that kind of come about?

My mom told me it was my fault. Thanks mom. Um, basically I think the stress of having– I’m not, like, I was not a 101 level child. I was pretty rough to raise, I think. Um, and the stress of entering my mom’s life– I don’t think they would’ve worked out anyway but, um, the stress of, like, being a childless man in your fifties who comes in and has to start parenting like a twelve-year-old, um, was I think it was too much for Paul. Um, and he and my mom disagreed a lot about how to parent me, and so eventually they split up. And, uh, also my mom is not friends with Paul. They don’t like each other. Um, but yeah, that’s– so they got divorced, and that’s when my mom and I moved into the little apartment and then I went to college.

And how did you reconnect with him? How did that relationship evolve?

Actually, my mom– my mom convinced me to invite him to my graduation, and he and I– he– he asked me out to dinner afterward, and he wanted to talk about why I was being such a douchebag basically, but he was nice about it, he was like, “you’re being a dick, why?” And I was like, “well these are the reasons.” And he was like, “okay.” So we started going out to dinner every so often, and just chatting and then we, you know, became buddies basically. And, um, that’s been our– our deal ever since, like we, you know, we stay in touch and have dinner together from time to time.

Do you talk about stuff with him that you don’t talk about with other people?

No, um, he’s like, um, our relationship is very like an uncle, like he– he knows about what’s going on with me, he, um, we avoid the usual topics that, like, I don’t talk about my sex life with him, like, um, but he basically knows what’s going on. We text from time to time.  He has a long-term girlfriend now that I absolutely adore. She’s the best, so yeah.

Um, so, so, your mom and Paul were married most of middle school into high school–

No, they started dating when I was like 11 or 12. They didn’t get married until I was 13 or 14 and then they divorced when I was 17.

Okay, um, so then what was that transition like from middle school to high school?

It was great. I loved high school. I had a great time. Um–

And where did you go to high school?

Metuchen.

Metuchen.

Yeah, the high school was fantastic. I joined everything, um, and I had, that was like, you know, I was like riding the wave of figuring out how to socialize, and I was friends with everybody, and then– in– in elementary school and middle school you’re kind of separated from the other grades, but in high school you have access to, like, people of different– all people of different ages, so, um, and I also did accidentally, but I did a really smart thing politically, which was I immediately started dating a senior, so I got to hang out with the seniors, and that was cool, so, um, yeah, I was in every group especially musical group, I did a bunch of sports, I did a bunch of different clubs and stuff like that, and I had a ton of people to hang out with and I loved it. I absolutely loved it.

Um, so was that your, kind of like, first romantic relationship?

Yeah.

Yeah, and what was that like?

Uh, she was super crazy, but I was into it. Um, she was, uh, had a rough home life and my parents just hated her so much. Um, understandably, she was the worst, but–

How so?

She was just so crazy, she was like, she was a seventeen-year-old who had been—and seventeen-year-olds are all crazy—and then she had, like, a terrible home life her entire life, so if you can imagine what that’s like, that’s what she was like. She did a lot of like faking illnesses, she told me she had cancer, um, one time, and very elaborately, like, her biological dad lived in Germany and she, like, told me she was going to Germany to get life saving surgery and she might not make it and, like, anyway, it was a whole thing. She also, um, my parents, they could never prove it, but they thought that I was having sex with her and they hated that because I was fourteen14 and she was 17. Um, she went away to college and we didn’t stop sleeping together and it was like a whole thing. Um, but yeah, my mom at one point took her out to coffee and was like, “please stay the fuck away from my kid.” And she was like, “got it,” and then she didn’t.

34:59

Did you have a, like, kind of a formal kind of conversation with your parents about sexuality?

Well, sort of. I– my dad gave me zero sex talk whatsoever. My mom never talked to me about sex, she did give me, like, a copy of, like, a hippie sex book. Like, it was like Our Bodies, Ourselves, or something like that. But, I came out to my dad by telling him that I had a girlfriend, and he told me to keep my pants on, and that was the end of the conversation. Um, but, like in a–

Did you feel supported by that statement?

Yeah, he was being my dad, he wasn’t being mean. And my mom lost her mind and told me that I needed to get a therapist and also didn’t talk to me for a day. Um, but–

What do you think she was upset about?

The concept of me having a sexuality. She, I think her, um, I think her relationship with queer sexuality was fairly good for a random straight person who never had to confront it in any way, but the idea of me having a sexuality and acting on it was the ultimate horrifying thing for her, so she was absolutely devastated/furious when I was like, “I kissed somebody.” It was a silent treatment for a day. That makes me want to share joyful moments with you. Thanks.

Do you think it was just because you were her child?

Yeah.

Did you have a concept of how your parents treated, uh, queer identity outside of you?

My dad, yeah, my dad and my stepmom and I were all very involved in a Unitarian church in Plainfield and there were so many gay people at that church, um, and so I knew that, like, I was nervous to tell my dad but I– I knew that it wasn’t gonna be awful, like I knew that I wasn’t gonna get kicked out or anything like that, so I knew that that was like, um, his– his reaction probably wasn’t gonna be too bad. Um, my mom, I think I sensed that I knew my mom was like, or I didn’t know but I suspected that my mom was like pretty okay with gay people, um, but we– we have a close family friend who is gay, but it never comes up, and I’m not even sure I knew he was gay at that point, um, and also my grandfather was bi, um, and he cheated on his wife and got AIDS, so that part of the family history is very– nobody– everybody’s really stressed about it so like those were the two things, and I didn’t know that at the time, when I came out. I didn’t know that my grandfather was bi, so I think I got like the general sense that being gay wasn’t the worst thing in the world, but also, like, no attempts to introduce to gay people or show me gay media or read gay books, or talk about gay issues, there was just zero of that with my mom, so she– I don’t think she thought that she needed to do that. Um, so she also did once tell me before I came out that she thought I was gay, um, so anyway, again it was like, I didn’t think I was gonna get a horrible reaction, but I also didn’t think it was gonna be great. Um, I also didn’t know at that point that there were parents who would have a good reaction, like, I had no concept of being gay, being a, like, nice thing or a neutral thing. I was like, the best I can hope for is like that they don’t freak out completely. So, I didn’t even know that a positive reaction was possible.

Um, were you spending, kind of like, equal time with both your parents at this point in your life?

It was like two thirds with my mom and one third with my dad.

Did you have, I mean, were you kind of leading up to it, or were you questioning yourself at any point during this time?

Yes, I do have to go to the bathroom, though, can I do that?

Yeah, absolutely. Let’s take a break right here.

[End of First Recording]

[Beginning of Second Recording]

00:00

(Unintelligible)

It’s not so bad when you’re moving around but sitting is

Uh, great.

You asked me if, um, what my process was basically.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I was just talking about this with my– I brought my friend down for Thanksgiving, and we, it’s an eight hour drive, so we were talking’ about stuff in the car and– she didn’t come out until she was in her thirties, and we were talking about– and she also, I’m not interested in men. I have never once been interested in men. Um, so my sexuality was a little less complicated, um, she’s interested in everybody, and we were talking about how, when you’re a kid, when you’re a little girl, specifically, and you’re interested in other girls, a lot of people, this is pretty common thing, a lot of people are like, “oh, well, you know, everyone feels this way. Like, I have these feelings for girls, but that’s normal.” And she especially, because she’s also interested in boys, didn’t really ever have to, like, deal with that. I do remember being like, “I am utterly uninterested in any of the boys in my class. I am very interested in the girls, but that’s super normal, right?” Like, we’re all 9, we’re all, like, all the girls are friends with girls, like, this is, you know, this is normal, I just really like my friends. Um, and except that’s weird because I never– I’ve never been a person who has crushes on my friends, I am not, like, once we’re buddies, my, like, romantic stuff shuts down. Um, so, it was always like girls that I didn’t know as well that I was interested in. But there was a point at which I was like, “I’m feeling like maybe other people don’t have these same thoughts that I’m having. I’m feeling like maybe there’s something different about this.” And then I was like, “oh no. Oh no. Being different is not great.” Um, but what really was the catalyst was I was a member of this youth group at my Unitarian church and there was another girl in the youth group who came out as bi, and I as like, “oh, you can do that?” I didn’t realize that people could be queer and be 12. Like, that’s– whoa. You know, and it’s somebody I know. So then I was like, I remember talking to my sister about it and being like, “I might be bi too.” And her being like, “uuuuuhhhhhhh.” (Laughter). Me being like, “well my grandfather was bi, and I know it’s genetic, so it’s possible.” Um, and that really, like, one of the reasons that I care so much about media representation is because it sounds stupid, I think, to straight people sometimes, but like, because we’re fed this idea of like what you’re gonna grow up as, it’s hard to understand that even if you authentically have these feelings, um, you don’t necessarily know that you’re allowed to have them until you see an example of someone doing or being that thing. Um, so for me it was Cat, I was like, “oh, okay.” Like that’s a person who’s just like me, you know, we go to church together, she’s my age, um, she’s not crazy, she doesn’t live in San Francisco, like, she’s– she’s a person. Um, maybe I’m also that way. So, then I– that was when I was 12. Then I spent a year thinking about it, and keeping it to myself and talking to no one about it. Um, and it– I had to sort through a lot of stuff, um, the funniest part of that was that I couldn’t initially tell the difference between thinking someone was pretty and being attracted to them, so I like made lists of all the girls in my grade that I thought were pretty in my notebook and was like, “I have a crush on fifteen people.” Eventually I was like, “No you don’t. That’s not– that’s not– you can think that somebody’s pretty but not be attracted to them.” It took me a little while to, like, sort that out. Um, and then when I was 13, I started telling my close friends, um, who were mostly fine about it. Um, shocked, but not super gross about it, mostly. Um, and then very shortly after that, I started dating Laura. Um, and then Laura and I did not, we were not out at school. Um, but then I, after freshman year, I went, um, and did sophomore year at my dad’s in North Plainfield and there I was out. I was like, “I am bi.” Funny now, but, um, I told everybody, um, and like everybody was actually really cool with it. My dad was worried 'cause North Plainfield is, um, it’s not an inner-city school but it’s like more– Metuchen is a small town, it’s like very, like, sweet and tiny and idyllic, and North Plainfield is not that way. It’s much bigger and not necessarily as accepting or liberal, and he was worried. I think he was like, “keep it under wraps.” And I was like, “I’m not gonna do that.” But he was concerned that people would be douches to me about  it, but they weren’t mostly. But, so when I came back to Metuchen after having been in North Plainfield for a year, I was out, I was just– I had– I started dating somebody, um, in Metuchen at band camp that year, and we were out, people knew that we were dating and, um, I was the first out queer person in my high school, to my knowledge, and considering this was like 2008 and no one, like, I’m pretty sure I was the first out queer person in my high school.

06:08

Were you at– so does Metuchen have a high school?

Mhm.

So Metuchen has its own high school?

Yeah. Um, anyway so I was out after that and (unclear) through the end of high school.

Um, you had mentioned before that you had been diagnosed and forgive me for not remembering–

PMDD.

PMDD. Had that already happened or–

No, no, I didn’t get diagnosed with PMDD until I was like 23.

So what was kind of like dealing with that simultaneously, or–

Yeah, I didn’t know what was going on, like, nobody was telling me that, like, it was not normal to be, like, extremely crazy all the time. Um, I think everybody just assumed that it was a combination of my personality/being a teenager, um, so yeah, that was– I didn’t know.

So were there any, you had mentioned band camp, so were there any, kind of like, extracurricular things?

Oh, I did everything. I did every single thing that my high school had to offer.

Like what?

I did marching band, I did concert band, I did pit orchestra, I did full orchestra, I did jazz band, I did chorus, um, I did soccer, track, cross country. Elaine (unclear) started knitting club, and I would go to knitting club from time to time. That maybe is it. But I was also playing traveling soccer at the time, and I was in two churches’, like, youth groups. My mom’s church and my dad’s church, um, that’s it, I think.

So you mentioned–

Wind ensemble.

Your dad’s church was Unitarian. What was your mom’s?

Presbyterian.

Did you have a preference of one over the other?

I loved them both for different reasons.

Like what?

Um, Presbyterianism is more– I liked the way– I liked the elegance of the Christianity at the Presbyterian church, like, it was a fairly open-minded congregation, like, not super crazy, not like ordained gay bishops type of, but like, you know, there were gay people in the, um, in the community and stuff, and people were generally nice, and the church itself was very beautiful, the music was very beautiful, um, I love the Bible. Um, and it was just like the– we had good ministers who were good at interpreting the Bible in a way that, like, made you feel good about the message and that wasn’t shame based, and I just like, it was, it was very pretty, like it was very aesthetically pleasing, and also like, I really identified strongly with a lot of– it’s funny I was just having this conversation with Megan, too, but like people– I’m not religious anymore, people get real nervous when they find out that I was raised Christian, which is understandable because Christianity is used to just totally mess everything up, um, and justify some horrifying things. Um, but my experience with Christianity was, I– that’s where I got– that’s the beginning of my social justice education. Like, I started writing letters to people in prison when I was 18 because Jesus specifically tells you to comfort those in prison and, like, I know that’s like a very unusual experience of Christianity, but that was my experience, so like, it was really, it was really important to me. My dad had gone to seminary, um, as a teenager, he ended up not being a minister, but, um, so yeah, in our family, our family went to church, um, so it was really important to me, um, I forget what the question was.

10:14

Uh, kind of like the difference, what was the kind of like, difference between those two?

Oh yeah, Presbyterianism was, like, big beautiful white church, beautiful music, everybody got dressed up to go to church, um, like, very like Puritan but in a kinder, gentler way. And then the Unitarian church was like, Unitarians aren’t really Christians, they’re like, whatever, you know. There were a lot of Jewish people in the Unitarian church, a couple of Muslims, um, it was more, much more community-based than religious. Like our services were very non-denominational and it was like, my dad was like, a pillar of the church, like we were always there, um, we– and they did lots of– they had a very active theater group that my dad was the director for, and I taught RE, religious education to the kids, but it was like, you know, we had one course on the Bible, but the rest of the classes were like, World Religions, where we would go to different religious institutions and see how other people worshiped, and there was one that was like, oh, there is a Unitarian course called OWL, Our Whole Lives, which is sexuality, it teaches you, like, you know, how to put on a condom and what birth control is and like all that other stuff so, like, very non-Christian, um, and there was a lot of, yeah, there was a lot of, like, we did the follies every year, which was like a revue, and it was hosted by a super fab gay guy, um, wearing a dress, like, so it was very different (laughter), very different like, much more community-based, much more, like, loosey goosey, um, type of situation. Less religion-based, more community-based.

Um, so you’re in high school, and you’ve had your, kind of like, first relationship, and then you said you had started seeing someone else, was– did you have other romantic relationships in high school?

Yeah, I dated Laura for a year, um, and I was really into her, but then she was going away to college and I was like, I don’t want to just date you, um, like we can break up or we can stay together, whatever you want, but I’m going to a different high school next year and I want to see what’s out there. I’m going to blow my nose, sorry recording.

[End of Second Recording]

[Beginning of Third Recording]

00:00

So when I– I, um, I’ve never, like I said before, I’ve never once in my life been attracted to a man, um, but when I was still figuring stuff out, you get just overwhelming pressure, um, to be into dudes, um, so I was like, “I guess, I guess I’m also into dudes,” so when I went to the– when I went to North Plainfield, you know, every– every new student is fresh meat, like, everybody’s obsessed with them for a little while, so I was getting asked out by these random guys and I was like, “alright, sure, let’s do it.”And then they were like, “let’s kiss now.” And I was like, “oh, I’m over it. I’m not– this is– this is a bridge too far.” Um, so I dated two boys who I was like not– didn’t want to touch. Um, I just liked the attention. I broke up with them pretty quickly, I did go to prom with one of them, and he tried to kiss me on the dance floor, and I was like, “ugh take me home dude.” Um, and then I– I was like sleeping with Laura again, like she would come down from college and we would have sex and hang out, um, but I wasn’t, like, really dating anybody. Um, and then at the end of the year, I had my, like, most significant relationship with a man ever, which was like a three-month-long relationship where I made out with this guy twice. That was– that was my sophomore year, and then after that I was like, “I don’t really think I like boys.” So I went to– I went back to, uh, Metuchen high school, went to band camp, met a super angry lesbian, um, and started dating. He actually is a dude now, but, um, when I knew him, he was a– he was not outwardly presenting as a dude, nor did he know that that was what was going on with him. Started dating him, he really loved to break up with me and then get back together with me, um, and I was really into him, so I let him. So we were like on and off that whole year, and I can’t remember if I dated– I don’t think I dated anybody else that year. I think it was mostly just like, back and forth with–

What was the reason– so when you went to North Plainfield and then you were– what was the reason for the change in schools?

Oh, my mom and I were like, our relationship was getting worse and worse and worse and worse and worse, and, like, freshman year was just a disaster as far as my mom’s and my– I was having a grand old time in high school, but she was like constantly fighting with me about homework, constantly fighting with me about, like, she didn’t let me– I wasn’t allowed to be home alone or, like, anything. So she was really strict, and I was constantly rebelling against that, also dating an older girl who she was freaked out about, um, a lot of other stuff so it was like tensions were extraordinarily high, and I was like, “I need to not live with you anymore.” Um, and then actually when I moved back to Metuchen, my mom forced me to basically, she said that I couldn’t go to college if I stayed at my dad’s, and I, uh, things were bad again, so I moved into my friend’s house, so I mostly lived with my friend junior year. Um, but anyway, that’s why I did that. Um, what was I talking about?

So your relationship between–

Oh yeah, just like a lot of on again off again with Gabe, and then we finally, well actually, no we didn’t. We were on and off for two years. Um, but then I met this girl at a, um, Unitarian Universalist con, and we started dating, and then at the very end of the year right before I went to college, um, I also– I was working at like a cheesesteak place, and once again I was like, “maybe I’m into boys. Let me kiss this boy and see. Oh, nope.” But anyways, so there was a little bit of that. Um, so when I went to college, technically I was dating Gabe, Katie, and Blaise. Um, but I, like, broke that shit off real quick, 'cause I wanted to further explore and not be tied to like hometown stuff.

04:45

Was going to college a foregone conclusion?

No. Um, I did not want to go to college. My mom very much wanted me to go to college. My dad did not care. So, I’m glad that she made me go, um, but I do– I’m glad she made me go, but I didn’t– I was so stressed out by the, um, by our, like, exceedingly poor relationship, and also by the, um, she– she– she gets really intense about education, so there was, like, constant, um, SAT studying and constant looking at colleges and writing essays for colleges, and like so many college visits, like, none of my weekends were like weekends. I was always going to some college to look at it. She made me go to a couple ones that I wasn’t interested in twice. I was like, “I don’t want to go here.” And she was like, “are you sure?” And I was like, “yup.” And she was like, “we’re gonna go again.” And I was like, “that’s a fuckin’ waste of time. Um, I still hate it.” So she was extremely stressed out about it, and I was really stressed out about it, being dragged all over the– like, it got to the point where I was like, “no. Absolutely not.” But my therapist talked me into it, she was like, “you can get away from your mother.” And I was like, “that’s a good point.”

Did you have a plan, were you just gonna kind of–

I didn’t– I was just reacting to– and I also, I have always wanted to work. I would’ve gotten a job at 13 if I had been allowed to. But my mom didn’t want me to work 'cause she thought somehow that, like, I don’t know why she thought this, 'cause clearly the problem was that I didn’t want to do my homework, but she thought that, like, not having any other activities would make me more likely to do my homework, and I was like, “(raspberry sound) no, that’s not true, but whatever.” That’s what she thought, so she didn’t let me work. Although, I did, without her permission, start working as soon as I turned 16 'cause you don’t need parental permission. Um, anyway, so I probably would’ve, like, gotten a job, um, and lived with my dad for a little bit, and then, you know, gone off and done my thing. But anyway, I am glad she made me go to college, although I could’ve done without the three years of stress before then. Um, but yeah, no I didn’t– it was not a foregone conclusion, for me at least.

Where did you end up going?

Smith.

And what was the kind of the draw there, the–

Lesbians. That is the only reason I agreed to go. My mom was excited because it’s a very good school, I was excited 'cause it’s an all women’s college, and I knew there were going to be a ton of queer people there.

What was your thinking in that, just to be able to live openly and date?

Yeah, and date and be around my people. I was tired of– I was excited to be able to, like, have relationships. I was tired of, like, when you live in a small town with no queer community you’re– one of the reasons that Gabe and I were on and off again, and it was very painful for me, um, was because there were two queer people, you know? It was like, it was me and Gabe and that was pretty much it. So my options were so limited that I was accepting a bad situation. I was accepting being treated poorly because I, you know, wanted love and companionship and had zero alternatives. Um, so I thought that that would be, um, and like, when you’re queer, especially a teenager, you– you can get– or at least I did get kind of obsessed with relationships because everything else in my life was fine. I mean, not my relationship with my mom, but, like, my friend group was great, my activities, I liked them, like, but this particular area of my life, like, most people, you know, everything’s fairly balanced. Like, you might have some rough stuff going on in your love life at some point, or some rough stuff going on with your job or whatever, but like, it evens out. For me, it was like this gaping hole where, like, everybody else was like, “I can explore dating at my pace because I like boys and boys like me and blah, blah, blah.” But I was like, all the other areas in my life were pretty much taking care of themselves, like they have ups and downs but like whatever. But this one area is, like, a constant source of stress 'cause there isn’t anything for me. Um, and I have to put up with a lot of, you know, bad behavior and because there’s not options so I was like, I was excited to go someplace where I wouldn’t– my dating experience would be more normal. Like, it would be more like everybody else’s. It was a huge draw for me.

So, that was, kind of like, the– the desire to go, what was the reality like when you got to school?

09:49

Oh Smith is super queer. It was great. I have complicated feelings about Smith. Like some things were good some things weren’t. Um, but the amount of queer people that I was exposed to was awesome. I was really, really happy about that. That’s also where like– I didn’t come out as, like, trans, like a trans guy, until I was 25, but I started exploring gender at college, because everybody else was doing it, um, and again it was like they showed the possibilities were being presented to me like, “oh there’s different ways of–'' I have never once identified as a woman even before I came out, I was like, I might not be a man, but I’m not a woman, like, I don’t feel like I went from girl to woman or girl to like, young girl to woman. Um, I went from child to older child to teenaged child to man. Um, so it wasn’t like I was like, “oh different ways of being a woman.” Like I was never like, “I’m a butch woman.” Um, but I– I started out with like, I started out saying, “I’m genderqueer, like, I’m not really sure what I am, but I’m not– I’m something different than a lot of people are.” Um, and I was the president of the trans rights organization on campus for two years and did a lot of, like– a lot of my friends were coming out, a lot of my friends were saying, “I’m a dude.” Like, and you know pursuing hormones and stuff like that, and I think that in part confused me because I knew that I didn’t– I knew that I, that the progression of like born with two X chromosomes into grow into a woman was not correct for me, but I didn’t think that born with two X chromosomes, take testosterone, become a man was correct either, so I got– I think I got confused about being a trans man because, um, the people around me were, like, really aggressively pursuing manhood and I was like, “I don’t– that’s not really for me. I guess I’m not trans.” Um, so I kind of stuck in the genderqueer box for quite some time. Um, and experimented with like, you know, didn’t change my pronouns for a while, but didn’t– didn’t want to be called girlfriend or sister, or, um, woman or anything like that. Dressed in– started dressing in men’s clothing, started binding, I had top surgery when I was 21. Um, I hadn’t been on hormones before that, usually people do it in the opposite order, um, so that’s where I like, the other thing too is I was– a lot of my friends were coming out and I was like, “what if I’m just copying them?” So that was something that was in my brain, especially since, you know, everybody else in my life who wasn’t at Smith was like, “being trans is a phase, like, you know, you don’t know, you’re young, like young people don’t know what they want.” So I was like, “I guess I don’t know what I want then.” So I was, like, affected by other people’s perceptions of trans stuff. Um, to the point where it, like, screwed up my mind where I was like not, um, where I thought somehow that despite never copying anyone in my entire life, I was somehow copying trans people by having trans feelings. But, um, yeah, so that was college.

When did you– when were you– you had said that it started, kind of like, using– considering yourself as gender queer, but when did you start, kind of, understanding– when did you start using that kind of vocabulary? Was it not until college?

Yeah, sophomore year of college.

Was that something that you had kind of discovered, or you had discovered through participating in some of these other organizations?

Discovered through my friends and social groups in college. And doing a lot of, like, reading and exploring. Ironically, I never– almost everyone I know studied women and gender at Smith, I didn’t. Um, but I lived it.

What was your academic life like there?

14:22

(Laughter) That’s funny. I almost failed out my first year. Um, I switched my major like four times, um, at Smith you can– I’m going to blow my nose again. I’m at the tail end of a cold, it’s like I’m mostly fine, but I’ve got, like, (nose blowing) leftover snot. Okay, um, luckily at Smith, they don’t make you declare your major until, uh, junior year, and also, uh, you, um, there are no core requirements for graduation, there’s only core major requirements. Like, I know at some schools, like, they have their certain classes you have to take no matter what your major is, Smith does not have those, which gives you greater flexibility, which is good for me, 'cause I really needed to take a wide variety of things. I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do, um, so I ended up choosing, ‘scuse me, I ended up choosing like, um, kind of the eleventh hour American Studies, which is basically a liberal arts degree. Um, 'cause it allowed me to take the greatest variety of classes. And I could grandfather in a lot of the ones that I took while I was dicking around before and (coughs) take a lot of the classes that I wanted to take and still have a degree. So, yeah. I took a lot of, um, a lot of different kinds of classes and the classes that I cared about I worked really hard in, the classes I didn’t care about, I did not.

Um, did you kind of, uh, perhaps you’ve already answered this, but did you have an idea of your trajectory, like what you wanted to do when you got out of school?

Nope. No, I had no idea at all. I couldn’t even conceptualize what I wanted– like it wasn’t even like, “I kinda want to be a carpenter.” Like, it was like, “I hope something lands in my lap because I’m not– I have no idea.”

Were there any moments that kind of, you said, oh okay here’s a possibility or–

No. Absolutely not. There were things that I like, there were things that I aspirationally wanted, like I would have loved to have been a music major. Um, I tried, um, but I also knew that that wasn’t realistic. Um, so it wasn’t like it wasn’t like, “oh let me try to do this.” I was like, “eh,” I liked the idea of being a music major. I don’t know what I would do after college, um, with that. But, yeah, no.

So as you were kind of making your way through college, and you were discovering certain things, how did that– did it change your relationship with family or did it, was–

Yeah. They were pretty mad at how radical I was. I was pretty– I have absolutely no regrets. Um, because my radicalness at Smith was what allowed me to develop critical thinking about social issues that I care about, but I– it was not very pleasant, I think, to interact with me at some points during that time period. But I’m not– I don’t– I’m not even that worried about that because my family is, kind of like, my family is the kind of liberal people who are really lazy, like they’re– they vote democrat, most of them, and they, like, think racism is bad, but they never think critically about anything, and they don’t like being confronted with the idea that they need to continue to grow and change. They don’t understand the concept that being nice to individual people is not the same as fighting injustice, so it’s– I think it was good for them to get, like, a fiery dose of social justice over the holiday table. Um–

Any moments that you remember?

I had a fight with my damn uncle about Teach for America of all things. Like, me and my, um, I got married when I was 21, and my then wife and I were like at Christmas or something, and they were asking us, it was maybe our senior year, and they were asking us what our plans were for after school and Bridget was saying, “oh maybe Teach for America.” And my cousin and my uncle were like, “that’s useless, like, you’re just gonna go teach these like crack-addicted kids and they can’t learn and, um.” We were like, “what the hell?” We were very surprised, 'cause Teach for America is not like, exactly a radical org. Like, it wasn’t like we’re gonna go join Antifa. It was like, “we’re gonna teach underprivileged kids.” They were like, “don’t even bother.” And we were like, “what?” Um, so I got in a fight with my uncle and my cousin, my adult cousin where I was like, “I can’t even believe that you’re saying this crap. Where is this coming from?” So that was a memorable moment. My mom and I have had a lot of fights about trans stuff until she finally got her shit together and realized that it’s not my job to, like, hold her hand through it, started going to a support group. Um, but yeah, a lot of fights with her about her inability to tell the difference between M to F and F to M, that was a big one.

Um, uh, when, how, or where did you meet your, uh, wife?

College.

20:06

And how long had you known each other?

We met freshman year, started dating sophomore year, got married right after senior year, uh, broke up two years later.

And what was that relationship like?

Um, it was a trash fire, um, which one hundred percent my fault. I just, like, wasn’t ready, and cheated on her a lot, and was a douchebag generally, so, I’m glad that she doesn’t have to deal with me anymore. I loved it though, she was great.

Do you, so, do you have a relationship now, or?

No, no, no.

Um, anything else you want to say about that or–

It’s pretty much the long and short of it.

So when you finished school, what happened then?

I moved to DC with Bridget, and we both got jobs in non-profit stuff.

What was the job that you got?

I started at an anti-hunger organization, and then I started working, supplementing that with an environmental advoc– or an environmental conservation organization, then I worked for a voting rights organization, and then an anti-bias education organization, and that was the end of my time in nonprofits. Actually, that’s not true, but–

What was the impetus to move to DC?

We were trying to figure out where to go, um, and the job market was super bad, and Bridget was interested in journalism, we thought, and like politics, so we were like, “you know what? DC, like, there’s a lot of jobs there, a lot of industry, intellectual industry,” um, I had family nearby, uh, and we knew that we didn’t– neither of us had a car, so we knew that it would be pretty easy to get around, so we decided to move there.

Uh, what kind of work were you doing for the organizations?

Uh, admin stuff, like office manager, some bookkeeping, um, greeting people, mailings, data entry, just like, any– all the grunt work, basically, that nobody else wants to do.

Uh, so what was the– what was kind of the transition like when the relationship ended?

It was pretty traumatic. Uh, I had to move out of the house I really loved 'cause I couldn’t afford it on one income, luckily I found another house that I really loved, um, but I was pretty upset about that. I lost most of my friends 'cause, um, they all knew that I had been treating her badly and didn’t want to be associated with me anymore. Um, but the good things about it were that we didn’t have kids, we didn’t have, um, I had rabbits, but they were my rabbits, they weren’t Bridget’s rabbits, so it was, like, pretty easy to do that. We didn’t have a lot of stuff, so it was like, pretty– as far as like the logistical aspects of divorce go, it was pretty easy, um, I also started dating somebody that I had cheated on her with, um, almost immediately, and like, that was helpful, um, in like kind of giving me something else to focus on besides pain and loss.

And you stayed in the DC area?

Yup, for another three years. (Coughs) Or another two years after that.

And this was kind of continuing with the work with various non-profit organizations?

Yup, and then, um, I– I dated Allison for three years, um, and she decided to go to grad school. And, um, she was looking like, we had– she had been in DC for five years, I had been in DC for four, we were both kind of over it. Like, I love DC, but, um, there are some things about it that get kind of old after a while. Um, and she started looking at grad schools, and I really wanted to move with her, um, and I probably would have moved with her no matter where she went, but she happened to choose– narrow it down to two schools, that both of which were cities that I wouldn’t mind living in, um, and she chose– they were Durham and Burlington, and she chose Burlington. Um, and I had always wanted to live in Vermont anyway, so that kind of lined up nicely. So we moved up to Burlington, and I got a job at the Y doing chronic health, um, the Y in Burlington runs the chronic disease management programs for all of the hospitals in the state. It’s a weird relationship but they do that. So I worked on that , um, and Allison and I broke up fairly soon after we got up here, six months, maybe a year, after we got up there, but it was a very amicable break up, and, um, we’re still buddies, like we saw each other last weekend, um, and, um, I loved where I lived, so it was like that breakup was just pretty much smooth sailing. Um, I moved into a cool house with a couple roommates and, um, you know, I was happy. I was happy, with the rest of my life, so it was much less traumatic.

25:33

Um, you had mentioned that you had top surgery when you were 21. Did you undergo any other kinds of like transitional–

Just top surgery, um, and then, and that was a trip because the, um, first of all, my surgeon wasn’t great. Um, but also, it was, um, it’s very unusual for people to have top surgery without being on hormones first. And I– and also, you know, I wasn’t– I wasn’t like, “I am a man.” I was like, “I’m genderqueer, it’s not really clear what I am.” And I don’t think the surgeon really knew what to do with that. I had to go to counseling to get a letter from a psychiatrist saying that I was, like, fit to make decisions about my surgery, which was embarrassing. He was very nice, but it was like, a little degrading, um, that you have to go have a medical professional tell you that your brain is fine so that you can make decisions about your body. Um, and there was a lot of, like, the surgeon was very clearly like, “I don’t know why I’m doing this, like, why are you doing this?” Um, so, but, I got it done and it was, uh, ended up being awesome. The surgery itself was not great, I didn’t have a car and the surgeon’s office was, like, way out in Baltimore, and I, like, I had to take, like, five trains to get there and a taxi, and it was a disaster, but anyway, it’s over now. Um, but yeah, I got top surgery, and then four years later started taking hormones. That’s also, like, there were a lot of things that led to my breakup with Allison, but one of them was, I was like, “I’m gonna do man stuff now.” And she was like, “I’m not really attracted to that.” Which is super valid.

Um, so you were living in DC, moved to Burlington, um, what was kind of like then the phase after the– so having the conversation with Allison, and then deciding to, I guess, be more specific in– with your transition, or with what you were interested in, was there then, kind of like, another transition?

Sort of, um, I had been, like, I’m a slow decision maker, um, I really, like, marinate on things for a really long time before I do anything about them. Especially big decisions, which is really funny because I’m– all of my small decisions are gut decisions. Like, I’m– I’m almost always act on my gut impulse, but for long– for bigger decisions, I take absolutely forever, um, so I had been thinking about it, you know, since college, I had been thinking about what is my gender and what does it mean and what, like, what if I do this thing, and what if I do that thing, and, like, for a long time I really didn’t want to take hormones because I, um, I’m not a binary trans person, like a lot of– some people are like, “I am a dude, I’m ready for my beard and my sweat to smell, and like all that stuff, ready.” Um, I was like, “no thank you. I would like to be Peter Pan, please.” Um, so I was– I didn’t want to take hormones because there’s no way to predict how your body’s gonna react to hormones and I was like, “what if something horrible happens? What if I, like, what if I have a beard, like, that grows? And what if I get really hairy, and what if I like–” I’m very focused on the hair right now for some reason, but there was some other stuff that I was worried about too. I was also– I’m kind of like an aggressive person, so I was like, “what if I get more aggressive? Like, that would not be good for anybody. What if I get real mad all the time? Um, have like, rage freak outs?” So I was concerned about what hormones would do to my body. Um, so I didn’t want them. But then, like, it got to the point where I was thinking about them a lot and I was like, “it is reversible if you don’t take it for a long period of time.” And I started male pronouns at work when I moved to Burlington, so I was like, “what if I tried it? Like, what if I did a low dose?” Talked to my, um, I’m lucky in that Burlington has a, um, my doctor is a trans healthcare specialist, so she, like, she’s famous throughout New England, and she, like, I talked to her and she was like, “alright, let’s– here are the things, I’m happy to start them on you, start you on a low dose if you want, you don’t have to continue if you don’t want,” so I decided alright, let’s see how it goes. Um, and it turns out that, first of all, I’m still on a much lower dose of hormones than most trans men, I think, like I stayed at .25 is what they start you out at, um, I was on .25 for three years. And most people bump up within six months. Um, and I think because it was so subtle, it was a pretty easy, like, it– I still, like, there were some serious, like, game– like there was a lot of stuff that was very hard to, um, adjust to, but, uh, my voice changing was a big one. Like, I like my voice, I liked my voice before, I like it now, but, um, when you take hormones, your voice is no longer under your control, like I can’t really sing, um, very well anymore because my voice is not, this is very hard to explain. Before, I was a soprano, I was just like, this was my range, um, and I could do anything within that range. Now, I’m like, it’s like it got shifted down a little bit, but not– it’s not as if I still have the same range, it’s just down, it’s more like some notes work and some notes don’t and it’s very irritating, and my range has also completely shrunk, so I don’t sing as well as I used to be able to. Um, and also, my like, my old voice pops out sometimes, unpredictably. Um, not when I’m speaking, but when I’m singing. So that was an adjustment, um, and also like, I am very, I don’t– for as androgynous as I am, I am not an effeminate person, and I don’t like being perceived as effeminate. So it was rough for me that even my man voice is pretty high. Um, and I sound, I was very– that’s the other thing I was scared of when I took hormones, I did not want to sound gay, I was like, I’m not– I’d rather sound like a girl than a gay guy. I got over that eventually, um, but I was really worried 'cause I had seen many trans men go through this thing and immediately sound super gay, and, um, I just didn’t want that for myself.

32:55

What was the anxiety about that or was it just–

Not my deal. Just not, not me. Um, and yeah. I just didn’t want that and I didn’t think it sounded good for me.

Did you ever have kind of an ideal version of how you wanted the world to see you or identify you?

Yeah. Like, perma-boy band member essentially, not really, like that’s too like, slick for me. I’m a little bit more of a dirty hippie than that. Basically, like young, slightly feminine, but in a man way. Like, in a way where you’re not confusing, um, like a, like, um, I’m trying to think of,like, a celebrity that would be a good– like Peeta from The Hunger Games. Like, Peeta’s a dude, there’s no question that Peeta’s a dude, but he’s like, he loves the baking and he’s got, like, the pretty blonde hair, um, that kind of stuff. Uh, but yeah, definitely dude, but like a dude where it’s like, the mix of masculinity to femininity is decidedly in the straight guy range. If that makes sense. Um, so yeah, voice changing was hard to adjust to, um, I kind of just like, didn’t turn out as hairy as I thought I was gonna turn out, which was great. Also, don’t care as much as I thought I was going to care. Like, I need to shave right now, it’s driving me absolutely insane, but there are like, I do have, like, a little bit of face stubble now, and it doesn’t really bother me too much. I’m definitely hairier than I was, but I was really scared I was going to get back hair and I didn’t (knocks on wood), um, so I’m happy about that. And yeah, like my body changed in a couple of, like, my like fat redistributed, that was nice, it’s nice to like have a little bit more of a masculine silhouette, and yeah, I did get kind of aggressive for a little while, but that– I was prepared for it, so I was able to, you know, I was able to deal with it until it stopped, um, so yeah, there– and one side effect that I hadn’t even thought of but saved my bacon was I don’t have to take, I had to take continuous birth control before because, um, if I got my period at all, my body would lose its mind, um, and now I don’t have to take birth control anymore because testosterone naturally suppresses menstruation, so I don’t have to deal with it, so that was a huge bonus. Um, so yeah, the, like, the changes that I went through were because I started out on such a low dose, they were pretty, like, they– they happened kind of gradually and were not as hard to– they weren’t like a huge shock to the system, which was good. I did bump up to a slightly higher level of testosterone about a year and a half ago, um, but still I’m pretty on the lower end of things as far as taking hormones.

What, um, what’s your work life like, what are you doing?

Um, I’m a jack of all trades. I do a lot of different stuff. I work with kids, I’m an after school teacher, not currently, but for the past three years, I have been, I’m taking a year off though, I’m a crossing guard, I’m a dog trainer, handyman, and personal care assistant. And I also work at the polls on, like, election days and stuff, and, um, write freelance, write every once in a while. I do, like, a lot of other random stuff to make money too, um, I’ll, you know, um, I do studies from time to time, like, um, I’m drawing a blank on other random ways to make money. I do stuff like that any time there’s an opportunity that I think can make a few bucks doing.

Do you prefer that?

Yeah. I, um, when I was at the Y, that was my last non-profit experience, and they basically– they didn’t like– they didn’t like what I was doing, and they got really frustrated with me, it was like a weird small department with weird department politics. And they– they forced me out. They didn’t want to pay me unemployment so they squeezed me out, made me quit, and after that, let me blow my nose again. After that, I said, “well you can keep banging your head.” And the nonprofit work I had been doing before then, like, (coughs) what kept happening was I would work somewhere for about a year, and then I would either get really bored and start like sabotaging myself, um, or something would, like, what happened at Teaching for Change, which is the anti-bias organization, is that I had a manager that I liked, and I was doing well under her, and she went on maternity leave, and I started being managed by the CEO of the organization, who was a disaster of a manager, and she made me so stressed out that I was having panic attacks at work weekly. And, my performance, like, nose dived, nose dove? And, um, she, like, gave me this horrible performance review, and like three months earlier I’d had a glowing performance review, and I was like, “this is not continuable.” Um, so I quit and they were all shocked, and I said, “what? Why?” Um, but, and then the year before that, I had worked at a nonprofit that had gone bankrupt and didn’t pay me for two months, 'cause they ran out of money and then they laid me off. Like they ran out of money, didn’t pay me for two months of work, and then laid me off, um, and the organization before that, I had been in an entry level position, and I just kept working, I was like, “alright, I’ll just keep–” and they were like, “mmm, we want you to leave. This is an entry level position, we don’t have anywhere for you to go. Get out.” Um, and I was like, “do I want to keep doing this because this is like.” I think it’s like a combination of the nonprofit industry like really using people up and, you know, and grinding them up and spitting them out, and not caring about them, and also, I’m clearly like not successful when I’m in a 9–5 job doing the same thing over and over again. I just– I get bored and then I don’t do a good job, so I was like, “figure something out.” So I thought, why don’t I try two part time jobs, so I did. And, it’s hard, there are a lot of ways in which it is very, very, very difficult, like not having benefits or sick days, um, but uh, it is much better for my mental health and much better for my job performance, like I’m awesome at all my jobs. I get great performance reviews, um, and I’ve worked with the same PCA client for three years, um, I was in after school care for three years, I’m newly a crossing guard, but like all the handyman work I’ve done, everybody really seems to like my work, so it’s a lot better than grinding myself, you know, like I said, there’s no good end to that metaphor. It’s a lot better than, like, whatever I was doing at the nonprofits, it was not workin’ for me.

40:38

Um, has your, uh, what’s your, kind of like, your relationship now with your family, has it changed?

Well, my dad died, um, and my mom is like really my only nuclear family. Um, I think she’s happy that I’ve chilled out, and I’m happy that she’s chilled out a little bit. Um, I was very pleased when she started pursuing education about trans stuff on her own rather than expecting me to explain it to her, 'cause that was stressful. Um, my extended family, I don’t see quite as often as I used to, um, I like them. We’re mostly, mostly chill. They’re accepting of the trans thing, they don’t really get it, but they’re not mean or anything about it. My cousin gave me a mug that says “His,” which is very cute. It’s not my style but like, I appreciate the gesture, it’s really big too, it’s like this big. It’s like so much coffee that I– it’s more coffee than I ever could drink in a day, but I appreciated it. So yeah, that’s them.

Um, what’s your social life like?

It’s great, super social. I’m like, um, I like being the hub. I like having lots of different friend groups that, um, I can bring together or keep apart at will. And Burlington is– is the perfect-sized town for me because it’s big enough that there’s enough new people coming in that I don’t get bored, but small enough that I know a ton of people and am– can be very involved in the community there and, um, yeah, I’m trying to right now– so Burlington doesn’t really have a queer scene, it has a lot of queer people and a lot of queer groups, but it doesn’t have like a knit-together community that doesn’t center around an organization. So I’m trying to– and then we had this woman last year, she lived there for several years, but she would throw big queer parties like once a month, and she knew everybody and, um, she was kind of the heart of the queer community in Burlington, but she moved to San Diego with her partner a year ago. I also moved to Boston last year with my girlfriend, hated it, and moved back. Um, and we broke up also, but I decided to move back before we broke up, that wasn’t a factor. Um, so I’m trying now to fill the hole that Dominique left even though we’re not– we’re very different in the way that we socialize. She loves everybody and is like a dance lady, and is like, very happy-go-lucky and more of like, “how about we get together and talk about gerrymandering for five hours? (Laughter) Um, and then I’ll make you watch all eighteen hours of YouTube videos that I like,” but, um, I’m trying to knit together the different factions of the queer community in Burlington, um, and in part for my own personal gain, like, I love having a million friends and, like, a big, happy community that I can go out in, but also because my– I’m not sure that I have a career calling the way some people do, but what I do, what I’m good at, and what I like doing, what I think that my skill to give the world is, I’m a good organizer, um, I’m good at getting the roots for grassroots organizing, like I’m not a protestor, don’t like it, um, I’m not a– I have trouble showing emotion, um, not a– I’m not one of those people who like regularly shows up at organizing meetings and, like, does that. I’m more of a, like, I’m a connector. I’m good at connecting people. I’m good at staying in touch with people, figuring out what they’re doing, checking in on them, convincing them to go to things, um, so I, like, my idea/my goal is to, um, drag people together and put– put that like if we’re going to go with the grass metaphor, put that like, sod down so, um, so that there is a good, um, environment for grassroots organizing to grow. So that’s my– that’s been my goal in Burlington so far. When I came back, I started a buy nothing group that’s now, like, thriving on Facebook where people come to like stuff they don’t want, they put on there and other people pick it up, it’s great, it’s really successful. I’ve been doing queer coffee meetups pretty much every weekend. Um, where I– it’s just like an open, it’s two hours at a coffee shop and it’s– people are in a Facebook group, and I just create the event, and invite everybody and whoever wants to show up, shows up, and because it’s like a regular thing, like, you don’t have to come to every one, you can come when you’re available, and people are slowly kinda starting to meet each other that way. Um, and for before I broke my ankle recently and, um, I’m just now getting to the point where I can walk around on it, before I was doing that, I was doing like neighborhood meetings where I was just like, “come over and we’ll have, like, mulled cider and talk about stuff for a little while,” just get to know each other, um, just kind of trying to get people out of their houses and, um, again in part for selfish reasons, but also because, like, it’s become very obvious to me over the past few years that the only way that we’re gonna do anything significant is community organizing, um, and I think it’s very easy, especially amongst millennials to like get shut off and not go do things and get, um, either jaded or frustrated or overwhelmed or whatever. Um, and I’m– my special skill is like aggressively dragging people out of their comfort zones and making them interact with each other, so, uh, I guess my eventual goal is to like get the people my age to be regularly leaving their house and regularly showing up to things so that when we need to organize for stuff, there’s already a network in place, it’s not like, “oh God, we gotta figure out who’s interested, who’s here, and who can do what.” But we already know, um, we can call like a militia, we can call ‘em up and then the other people can do the stuff that I’m not good at, but we already have the base.

Um, is there anything– is there anything that you were perhaps expecting me to ask that I haven’t asked that you are interested in talking about? I don’t really have any remaining follow up questions, any parting thoughts or–

Yes. Um, so, I’m pretty lucky as far as trans people go. I’m white, um, I grew up in a relatively liberal area, I lived in a relatively liberal area. So there’s a lot of, um, a lot of discrimination that I have not personally experienced, but there are two major areas of discrimination that really, really, really, really bother me, and one of them is I have had a hard time accessing healthcare, especially weirdly enough, um, in LGBT health centers. Uh, when I was in Boston, I went to um, oh my God, what’s it called? Fenway. Um, and Fenway health is a dedicated LGBT health center. It is only for LGBT people, and it’s like award winning. Um, it’s been around for a really long time. I was treated very poorly there, and– which is like especially horrifying, like, you expect that from like a random doctor, but like, this is– this is an LGBT health center, um, and yeah, just like, having people, um, talk about my body weirdly, and, um, like I feel like I should not be educating medical professionals on, like, don’t call anything female parts, like, that’s not cool. Um, and stuff like that, the– Fenway fucked up my hormones like a billion times, um, it was just like a disaster. So that’s– that’s a big one is healthcare. Um, the other one, too, is that I feel like we’re getting to the point in the culture now, where like, we are aware that trans people exist, we don’t think they’re disgusting monsters anymore, mostly. Um, but what we’re not– what I think is a huge barrier (coughs) to trans rights is um, gender essentialism and biological essentialism. It’s like people really– they can understand the concept of someone living as their preferred gender, and I’m going to note that I used air quotes, um, but people don’t understand that sex is a spectrum and I– I find the idea that someone is okay with me living my truth very insulting and degrading. Um, like I’m not living my truth, like I, my– my body– it’s not like I’m ignoring my body to play dress up, that’s– I think that’s the idea that a lot of people have. They’re like, “oh yeah, of course, you know, this person should be able to dress as they want and live their life, but like they’re not a real man.” Deep down, they might not admit it to themselves, but they think that I’m not a real man. Um, so and that comes from– that belief comes from the fact we’re taught that there are two distinct biological sexes that have easily measurable differences between them, and this is something that my mom truly believes, and it drives me absolutely up the wall. Um, but that they’re like, “but that’s not true.” Like, and I’m not just stumpin’ for trans people here, like, we know this. Science tells us this, like, there’s so many variations and a good ten percent of the population is not, is not the strict like XX breasts and vagina, lots of estrogen, progesterone, looks like a girl, situation all lined up. Like, a solid portion, more people are intersex than are redheads, but we don’t think redheads don’t exist or aren’t real people.Like it’s– anyway, that’s the point is that biological and gender essentialism when  it comes to thinking about how people present and what sex is, I think is our major, major issues with trans rights, 'cause we’re not gonna get anywhere unless people understand that it’s not– I think people think of trans rights as special rights, like, “oh of course you should be allowed,” kind of like religion, “you should be allowed to practice however you want,” like, it’s like, “no, no, that’s– yes, but the real problem is that we’ve artificially categorized people into these two groups and that’s helping no one, and you’re not gonna really understand trans health or safety or anything until you understand that your system is wrong.” Um, so I like to talk about that whenever I can because I think until we change our thinking on that, we’re not gonna really get anywhere. We might make small gains but we’re not gonna change the culture of thought unless that’s understood.

52:55

How would you– is there a way– so if that’s challenging kind of like the notion of it now, is there a way that you would be able to articulate what the I guess more positive version of that would be or the more–

People need to read the research. Like, if you read any reputable scientific study of sex differences in humans, it’s quite simple. Like, it’s not, you know, every– pretty much every single person has, like, a different biological sex. Biological sex is not a useful category so it’s– if you think about, um, if you try to think about people as having a unique combination of hormones and organs, rather than thinking that there are two boxes that people go in, and there are some– everybody agrees that there are some people who don’t really fit in either box, but, like, if you stop thinking about the boxes altogether and think about people as being, you know, having a unique combination of body parts and hormones, which is accurate, um, it’s– it’s a lot– that’s a lot closer to the truth, and it’s a lot– the potential for discrimination goes, just, it– it bottoms out because, if you treat people as individuals, then especially since, like, my best friend is a doctor and, um, the– the– the inaccuracy in, um, in treating someone even– when you see that they have a uterus and then make a bunch of decisions based on what else is going on with them based on the fact that they have a uterus, like, it’s insane that we do it this way because you’re missing so much because again, humans are– even people with uteruses who are otherwise cisgender, women with hormone levels that fall within our like, whatever, um, you don’t know if they PCOS, you don’t know, you know, like if you’ve been pregnant, um, makes a difference, if you’ve had different kind of birth– like there’s so many more factors than like what basic anatomy you have that are just people just don’t even engage with because they think they know, um, so just removing the– removing the two category system and kind of letting people do what– like, dealing with people as they are instead of as what you’ve projected them to be would go a long way, I think, in making– in cutting down on discrimination, and making everybody healthier also. 

 55:31

You mentioned something for, uh, for bringing up the idea of healthcare, too. You mentioned some– or are there any other particular moments or circumstances in which you either had a negative experience or in which you had– where they got it right, where you had a really positive experience?

I really haven’t had positive experiences, so much as I’ve had not terrible experiences. But, it’s mostly like, the biggest problem is that, um, some people know how to talk about– the thing like, so the problem is that, um, because we have assigned genders so strongly to various body parts, it can be a little triggering for trans people to have their body parts referred to by their, like, legal, medical names. Um, some healthcare providers are very good at talking around that, a lot of them aren’t. And even, the thing is that even with your best intentions, even if you’re like, “okay, you’re a trans woman. I accept your womanhood, I’m on board, um, but I want to examine your penis,” like, I think people think they’re being, like, good when they do that, and I’m sure some trans women are like, “yeah, fuckin’ examine my penis, that’s great. I want my penis to be healthy.” But a lot of them are like, “that’s not a penis, that’s a clit.” And I think there’s a good opportunity for providers to be educated in how to let the person guide how you talk about their body. Um, whenever I talk about this with people they’re like, “but then people will call it like, wee-wee and stuff.” And it’s like, “okay, is that the end of the world? Relax, it’s fine.” Um, anyway, so there have been a lot of people who have talked about my body in ways that are not correct, and the good ones will stop if I tell them to, the bad ones won’t. I had one person argue with me, he was like, “I’m gonna give you a breast exam now.” And I was like, “I don’t have breasts.” And he was like, “well that’s what it’s called.” And like, “no stop.” There should not have been an argument. You should have said, “I’m sorry,” and moved on with your life. You can call it a chest exam, it won’t kill anybody. And he was like, “men have breasts too.” And I was like, “I know. I am one.” That was really frustrating. And then there’s people who, like, don’t know basic surgeries. Like, I understand that top surgery is not the most common name but I was like I told someone once that I had had a bilateral mastectomy, 'cause I had a sense that she wouldn’t know what the fuck I was talking about if I said top surgery, and she was like, “so was that both breasts?” And I was like, “that’s what bilateral means, last time I checked, did you go to medical school?” So, um, then there was the guy who was visibly taken aback when I said I was trans. This was at Fenway, again, queer health center. Um, and like, first of all, dude, like, you’re a doctor, you should not be reacting to anything I’m saying. I should be able to tell you I have a tail and see nothing change in your face. Let alone tell you that I’m trans, like, there should not have been a reaction. Um, so yeah, just like many, many doctors calling my body parts the wrong things, um, reacting with horrified expressions when I said things, not understanding what surgeries are, um, yeah. I’m sure there’s others but–

Did you get a sense of– were these individuals who had been working in the field for a while or were these individuals– were these medical professionals who had been thrown into a specific kind of a practice that they were not prepared for?

59:38

I have not gone to a non-LGBT-focused healthcare center since I was like, 18. Or actually since I graduated college, 'cause Smith’s medical services were not particularly queer friendly. Um, so I’m going to clinics that are explicitly for queer people queer populations.

I get– and this we can have a whole conversation separate from your oral history, but I guess part of, if you have a sense of whether it was poor management, poor administration, poor training?

I honestly have no idea, um, I know that other people have had– I think Fenway’s not great on trans stuff. I have, um, some friends, trans man and a cis woman who went to a, like, fertility, like, workshop on, like, queer parents trying to conceive, and apparently it was very, very like biological essentialist and weird, and they were like, “this is– we would expect this from, like, some random fertility clinic, but this is supposed to be for queer and trans people.” So, I don’t know. I don’t know– I think that LGB health is pretty, the T is new and, um, not well understood or prepared for, is the sense that I get, but I don’t know what, more specifically, is the problem. Biological essentialism is the problem. People go to medical school and they become idiots because they don’t understand that, like, they get, like, medical brain and then they’re like, “I must say penis and vagina and anytime anybody says anything different, I get confused.” They can’t like, break out of that.

01:01:38

Anything else?

That’s it.

Thank you.

No problem.

I’m going to stop the recorder right now.