Maretta Short

Maretta Short discusses her experiences with NOW and the intersection of racism and gender discrimination. She has been involved in community organizing and has met key figures along the way.

“You have to let people know you’re there. If they don’t know you’re there, they’ll never think about you. You have to leave an impression on people in some way. You’re going to sit in a room and say nothing to a person? If that’s what life is going to be about then I want nothing to do with it.”
— Maretta Short

ANNOTATIONS

1. Systemic Racism - Racial segregation came about during the Jim Crow Era and lasted until the mid 1960's. Black and white people were separated within institutions, transportation facilities, schools, and jobs due to the idea during this era that white people were more superior than Black people. In this case, Maretta and her mother were not allowed to use a specific facility and experienced segregation. However, these same attitudes continue to be demontrated through systematic racism, in which Black people are still not given the same educational and job opportunities although segregation laws are not applied today.
2. Gender Discrimination - Learning about gender inequality and discrimination is often lacking in school curriculum, however it effects those around us everyday. Maretta thought that her issues stemmed from being Black, however she was able to understand her intersectional identity and how that played a role in the treatment that she was experiencing. Intersectionality is a term coined by Kimberly Crenshaw and describes the Black woman's experience as an experience of double discrimination on the basis of race and on the basis of sex.
3. Financial Inequality - Racism can affect health and wellbeing by restricting access to educational, health, job, and houisng resources, as well as increasing risk factors (Priest et al., 2013). African Americans have less access to affordable health care, have a lower quality of treatment from the healthcare system, and receive higher stigmas from the healthcare system (Assari, 2019). This often results in having to rely on public assistance within a system that often contributes to an increase in poverty and untreated health issues. With Maretta's mother being a single Black women, there are a lot of financial and emotional burdens that she may have faced.
4. First Generation, Educational Access - If someone is a first-generation college student, this indicates that they are the first in their family to attend college. First-generation students are predominantly non-white and from low-income backgrounds. First-generation college students indicate lower rates of college readiness and often experience challenges with the admission process, financial aid, and coursework. Up to forty-eight percent of first-generation college students have to atttend college part time in order to work or care for home responsibilities. Forty-six percent of first-generation college students also have to rely on federal assistance to fund their education as well.
5. Intersectionality, Crossing of Demographics - First-wave Feminism occured in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Feminists held onto the declaration that "all men and women were created equal," and advocated for voting rights. The first wave of feminism was primarily led by white middle class women. The Second-wave of Feminism occured in the 1960's. This is where women of color gained more voice within the movement, and people began to notice the intersectional aspects of being a woman of color.
6. First Amendment - The First Amendment states that Congress shall not make a law to establish religion or prohibit freedom of speech, press, and the right to assemble and petition. Although this has been stated to be a value in the United States, there have been many times where people were persecuted for expressing these thoughts in various petitions standing for different social causes and human rights. Although freedom of speech is a value in the U.S., people still supress the thoughts of others.
7. Gender Pay Gap - Women's median earnings are 81-82% of men's median earnings. Although the ratio of women to men in the nursing field is 10 to 1, research has shown that male nurses receive greater income than female nurses.
8. Women's Organizations, Funding Inequality - In 2010, research from the Association for Women's Rights in Development have discovered that the median budget for 740 women's organizations was $20,000. In some states there is a limit on public funding for abortion, and abortion is excluded from the healthcare services. Planned parenthood, which is an organization that provides abortion services along with other services, has faced many trials of people trying to shut down their services, and a third of their money is provided by the government while the rest is covered by non-governmental health services and private contributions.
9. Black Community, Class Disparities - Black American's who have more qualifications are able to achieve upward mobility through governmental efforts of creating an environment that is less discriminatory. However, a majority of Blacks who have not been able to receive education and skills to gain certain qualifications remain trapped in a cycle of poverty in their low-income jobs. Therefore there can be suspected to have some attitidinal differences between middle and lower-class Black American's because they socially occupy different spatial environments and their is a reallignment of behavior and interest.
10. Intersectionality - Intersectionality is a term that was coined by Kimberlé Crenshaw and references the interconnectedness of race, gender, class, sexuality, religion and ability. Within the women's movement, the mission is to advocate for equal rights for women. Findings have discovered that racial and gender discrimination are correlated to each other. This contributes to sterotypes and racist perceptions of gender roles. Race plays a role in the ways that women are treated and unable to achieve equal rights.

Transcript

Interview conducted by Isha Mehrotra

August 28, 2020

Transcription by Allison Baldwin

Annotations by Destiny Morales

[Note on COVID-19: Due to strict social distancing guidelines, this interview was hosted as a phone call and recorded using a mobile application.]


0:00

I’m going to start recording.

Okay. Cool.

So, to start off I’m just going to ask you some, give, get some information, like my name and stuff, just for the transcript purpose, like about myself. My name is Isha Mehrotra, I live at 215 Queens Lane, Mountainside, New Jersey and so since we’re in a pandemic right now this interview is being conducted digitally, and the date of interview is August 28, 2020. Now, Maretta, can you give an introduction with just your name, address, and date of birth?

Yes, I can. My name is Maretta Short and I live at 27 South Patterson Street in East Orange, New Jersey.

 

Great. And what is your date of birth?

August 23, 1950.

 

Oh. Happy Belated Birthday.

Oh. Thank you. I have my balloons and my back here. I had a Zoom birthday party.

 

Oh. Nice. How was that?

It was wonderful. I just couldn’t get a word in edgewise. All my friends are activists and all they do is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. I had to hang up. It was so busy. So many people came that the bell kept ringing like someone was at the doorbell. I just couldn’t get a word in. It’s nice to be loved. It really is nice to be loved. So wonderful. Most of them are from NOW. They’re NOW members. The other chapter that I was the president of. And, I’m sorry if you can’t, can you understand me?

 

Yes. I can understand.

I had a couple of strokes and it affected my speech. Very aggravating.

 

Yeah. I can imagine.

I’ve been accused of talking too much. And I’m afraid that’s true.

 

Well, that’s actually really good for today, for the interview, because it’s going to mostly be you talking and we want to hear about your life story.

Okay.

 

So, I’ll just start off with some basic questions and from there you can continue talking as long as you’d like. So, I just wanted to start off, can you tell me a little bit about your background and where you were born and where you went to school? What people were the most important in raising you?

Well, I was born in Lyons, Georgia. 1950. I was born in my grandmother’s house, from my mother’s womb into her hands. And I was very close to my grandmother. She was very important to me. That’s how…I think I inherited her warmth and her loving. She’s also a good cook too. A wonderful cook. And we lived on a farm where there were cows, and pigs, and horses, and chickens and animals like that so… I love country, love it. Grass and trees. It’s wonderful.

4:24

So, you grew up on a farm? 

Yes, I did. Part of my life I did. And later on, as a youngster, I grew up in Newark, New Jersey. After my parents separated. A very diverse community. Italian. Latino and Latina. Everybody lives in Newark. A huge immigrant population. Newark was an industrial city.

 

Right. That must have been a big change.

Uh huh. Oh yes. Very busy. Not a boring moment.

 

So, then, were you closer to your mother or to both sides of your family?

My grandmother. My mother’s mother. The one who gave her to—

She was a midwife. And she delivered a lot of children in her area.

 

So, did she move to Newark with you or did she stay in Georgia?

No. She stayed in Georgia. And I moved to Newark with my mother. My sister and I.

 

Nice. So, when and how did you get involved with the Women’s Rights Movement? Why did you choose to get involved?

Well, I’ll tell you, all my life I knew that something was wrong. I knew that I was not being treated fairly. Because of certain things that happened to me. I remember once, my mother and a friend of hers were driving, going to the South, going to Georgia, and we stopped at a restaurant and my mother asked for me to use the bathroom and the waiter said that I would have to go in the back. To go to the bathroom and I was like, “Why do I have to go to the back? Outside.” I didn’t understand. I was only about five years old. And when we got to the back I said, “Mommy, it’s dark out here.” And it was, so. That’s when Black people were not allowed to use the same bathroom as White. Everything was separate. They called it segregation. Like they’re doing now with the Coronavirus, but it’s not based on the color of your skin. It’s just based on your safety. We have to separate and not be doing… we have to be away from each other. Always separate, always alone. So, that was the first time I used the bathroom outside. It was a horrible experience. I was scared half to death. I couldn’t wait, I couldn’t wait to stop peeing. I said, “Oh, I gotta get out of here, Mom. The mosquitos are biting me.” And, so we hurried up and got back inside the restaurant and there was nowhere to wash my hands or anything. My mother just gave me a wet rag and told me to wipe my hands with it. And that’s it. So, where am I going with this? We continued our ride into Georgia and I had forgotten all about this racism stuff. I had gotten to Georgia and reunited with my cousins and I just loved it. Loved it. The food was delicious and always piping hot. Yes. Very nice. So, I stayed there for the summer. And every summer my father would send for me and my sister Melinda to come stay with him. And his family. For the summer. And it was a lot of fun. And it also helped me stay out of trouble during the summer months. Yep.

[Annotation 1]

10:00

A lot of kids got in trouble during that time because we weren’t going to school. And I went to church. I had to go to church. Every single Sunday. I was churched to death. You know, I went to Sunday school and then afterwards we went to regular church and on Monday we had to go to choir rehearsal and on Friday we had to go to prayer service. There was always something going on. Church picnics. All types of things. Especially because of my grandmother, because we also stayed with her, so those times as well. Very warm and inviting community. Yeah.

So, you were very involved in church? 

Yes, I was. I was a Baptist growing up. Now I’m involved in the Unitarian Church. In Montclair. Which I love very much. They, I say that church is more my speed because of the value and the diversity, which I love.

That’s great. So, what inspired you to get involved with the Women’s Movement after experiencing racism growing up?

Well, I got involved in the Women’s Movement once I went to college and I found my way inside of a women’s center on campus. And I was a returning student and I was going to the women’s center and I found the most interesting women and the most interesting conversations talk about women and their home life. What it’s like being married with children so on and so forth And I had never heard women talk like that before. They would talk about equality, equal pay and how they had been cheated out of money and I was like, “Wow.” I had always thought my problems were because I’m Black, you know, so…that wasn’t…some of the stress I was experiencing was because I was a female and I did not know, I had not been taught about, female discrimination. Gender discrimination. No one had ever asked. No one had ever talked to me.

[Annotation 2]

13:21

So, that’s when I became interested in women’s issues. The women’s center also had a book that sat out on the coffee table in the living room area. It was called Our Bodies, Ourselves and I read that book and I just couldn’t stop reading it. It was so interesting. All about a woman’s…it talks about our bodies and certain medical procedures that women might have to have. Hysterectomy. Reproductive rights and things and the right to choose. I never even knew I had the right to choose. Or that there was such a thing as having the right to choose. Because I grew up playing the role of a woman and with society’s expectations. You have to take care of your family. You had to cook. You had to clean. You had to do this. That’s what society expects of, from women. You have to go to the PTA meeting. Things of that nature. That’s how/what we taught our women. You have to get married. And that was it and I became interested in myself and what other women were doing and the inequalities that we had to go through. And that was my beginning.

15:26

And the women’s center on my college campus. I went to Ramapo College in Mahwah, New Jersey.

 

Nice. What did you study there?

I said, I went to Ramapo College in Mahwah, New Jersey. And one of the events we sponsored was, I’m forgetting the lady’s name. We had Martin Luther King’s wife as a keynote speaker and Bella Abzug at the same time. That was a really big event. And I was like a body guard for Bella Abzug who at the time was not doing anything that anybody wanted her to do.

16:32

I think maybe she had early stages of Alzheimer’s. I believe she did. And she spoke. And there was a thunderstorm that night. The gym was full and for some reason the power went out and there was a blackout in the gym and everyone started buzzing and talking and she said, “Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute! The lights are out. I can talk with the lights out. Why are you talking? It’s my turn to talk.” Everyone just died laughing. She had such a sense of humor. And she had a very productive voice as well.

 

So, were you involved in organizing the event?

Yes. I was. I organized it and I participated in guarding Bella Abzugdler and Coretta Scott King. I had to keep them very close to me and make sure very few people approached them.

That’s exciting. 

Yes it was very exciting. Secret, secret agents were there. Uh. I had become a part of history and I was so proud.

 

So, what year was this in?

This was in the eighties. Just before Jesse Jackson announced that he was going to run for the president. And his rainbow coalition.

 

So, this was after college or during college?

During college. Yes.

 

So, what did you, I guess what kinds of things did you do in the Women’s Movement after that? After college? Or is/are there other important events that happened during college?

In college, uh, uh, there was nothing else as far as women’s issues were concerned except that I was told to be a student coordinator for the Jesse Jackson campaign. By a very strong feminist by the name of Flo Kennedy. Flo Kennedy was the first African American woman to graduate from Columbia Law School. Very outspoken, very strong woman. She used to dress in a cowgirl outfit. She had the hat, the guns on the side, everything, the boots. The cowgirl boots and everything. And Gloria Steinem used to describe how she articulated as a person who had learned how to give verbal karate chops. Very highly quoted in the women’s movement. She said, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle and there are many other ways…she talked fast on her feet.

21:04

The way I met her is, first I read about her in a magazine. And then I decided to come in contact with her so I searched her down and found her. And when I called her I said, “Excuse me, Miss Kennedy, my name is Maretta Short and I would like to meet you. I am a student reporter. I worked on the school newspaper. I said, “I would like to interview you and learn more about your various [endeavors] and she invited me to her famous Thanksgiving leftover dinner at her apartment in New York. I said, “Thanksgiving leftover dinner?” and she said, “Yeah. You come and you bring something leftover from your Thanksgiving dinner, a kind of potluck. We put it together and we have dinner.” I visited. She lives off fifth avenue and I took a bus, a train and another bus to fifth avenue and I found a big sign before I got to her apartment that she was living in a Billie Holliday estate. It was a cute apartment, very cute apartment, a three-room apartment and while I was there I got to meet so many lawyers. And I’m thinking now, why didn’t I get all their cards? I should have gotten all their cards. So, whenever you go to something and there’s nothing but lawyers, make sure you get their contact information because you’re going to need it because women can come to you with all kinds of problems. And each and every problem, a lawyer is needed. At least their advice is need my situations/opinions.

23:34

So, what did you talk to Flo Kennedy about?

I just interviewed, I just basically got to know her as a person through the interview. And she was born in Kansas City and she had four sisters and she grew up in poverty basically, but she was a very smart woman and having brains and education really helped her go far. Yes. She also represented H. Rap Brown in a case with the Black Panthers, a case no attorney would touch. Yes. I think Flo said the first thing that came to her mind. That’s what made her very dynamic. She could respond very quickly to any insult coming in her direction. She could defend herself, no problem.

25:03

 So, what did you study in college?

I was a Communications Major. I majored in Communication Arts and, uh, eventually I became involved in community organizations in the East Orange area, Essex County and I happened to attend a rally at Rutgers in New Brunswick for women. And I was a speaker and after I spoke at this particular rally a reporter from WBAI walked up and introduced herself to me and she asked me a few questions. I said, thank you, and she and I did the interview right there on the spot. Next thing I know I was getting a phone call from Fran Luck who was the director of Joy of Resistance, a feminist radio program and she asked me if I would be interested in co-hosting of the program and she had told me she had listened to the recording of my interview and she was very impressed so I said yes. She gave me the address and told me to show up at a certain time at 125 Wall Street so I took public transportation and got there.

 

So, what year was this in?

I beg your pardon.

What year was this?

Gee whiz, I need to go back to my resume. That was, right around when welfare reform was happening, so that had to be around 1993. Yeah, because I think…our first show was based on the legislation for welfare reform. We were advocating for poor women and their children. Yes. That was the first radio program. And that was one of the issues that was close to my heart. I grew up in a single parent and I understood how important having a safety net was for my mother who was a single black woman. Very important. And to my sister and I as well. Women have to have one. Because right now I have to depend on public assistance, medical insurance, Medicaid. A few years ago, I had an illness and I ended up having to spend time in a nursing home. That’s where I am spending today, in a nursing home. And if I didn’t have Medicaid I wouldn’t be able to pay the bill. I don’t know what would happen to me. And my son and daughter in law can’t really afford to take care of my me. They struggle theyself. They’re both working people and they have a granddaughter, my granddaughter, who I love very much. So, a safety net is important for families to have because you never know what happens.

[Annotation 3]

 29:54

Look at us today. We have Coronavirus. We have Corona and if we didn’t have Medicaid many more people would be dead than are already dead, so it’s something we have to have. And, no, I don’t believe that everyone should be, people should make it a part of their regular lifestyle, to be on welfare. I think everyone should try to get up off of it and find out what their other endeavors could be. Make a career for themselves. Work. Be somebody. Be…use your brain, get to know other people, how other people live. Understand other people. Talk to other people. Hold an intelligent conversation with someone and try to understand and accept their differences, if there are any at all. Most likely will be. I believe in that. I believe in that. Not laying back on welfare and letting welfare do everything for you. It’s not right. But we do need a safety net. Because you never know what is going to happen in this world. You just don’t know. Everybody needs somebody, that’s for sure. I don’t think a bunch of rich people should be telling a bunch of poor women and their children not to have any more children, not to abort their children and then turn around and say, “Yeah, well, if you have children, we aren’t going to help you feed them.” What is that? What is that? Hypocrisy.

 

Right.

It doesn’t make sense. I think they believe we’re stupid. I’ve never liked that and I was done—they cut 270 billion dollars from poor children and their mothers and the disabled people to give tax breaks to the rich people like Donald Trump and his friends. People who could afford to pay taxes got a break. But the poor did not.

33:16

 

So, the rally at Rutgers, what was the rally for?

It was a women’s rally. Given by the Rutgers Women’s Department.

 

Got it. And this was in 1993?

Yes. Around 1993. New Brunswick campus.

 

So, at that time were you working or were you involved with NOW already?

I was a member of NOW.

So, when did you join and become a member of NOW? 

Around ’98. I attended a conference for women of color that was given by NOW in Arlington, Virginia and I met a woman by the name of Barbara Foley who was a member of the Essex County chapter of NOW. And she and I became great friends and I ended up joining NOW. That’s how I became a member of NOW. Now, I remember. She organized the Combative Racism Task Force and she called me one day and she said, “Maretta, you want to go combat some racism with me?” I said, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure I’ll go.” She said, “I’ll be there to pick you up in a minute.” And she knocked on my door, there she was standing, ready to go. With a NOW round. It said, “Stop Racism” on it. I told her, “Come on in. I’m so glad to meet you.” So, ever since that day, we’ve been traveling together, protesting together, and speaking out at rallies together and just about everything we could do. We called a protest in Morristown, a press conference in Morristown, when the KKK was marching there. The KKK, the National Supremist group was coming to town so we put out a press release to all of the organizations throughout the United States. And people from Oklahoma, Texas, everywhere showed up. Black, White, polka-dotted, whatever. They showed up. It was amazing. I doubt a concert could have gotten this many people. But racism is strongly something in America that American people do not want to tolerate. It’s like, get it out of here, we don’t want it. That was the response they received. 

37:14

So, you organized a protest when they came to town?

 Yes. That’s right.

 

So, this was led by the Essex County Chapter?

Yes. The combative racism task force. For NOW.

 

That’s like national NOW?

Yes.

 

Got it. So, how did you get more involved with NOW from then?

Well, I became quite an item in NOW. I was the producer and co-host of a well-broadcasted radio show and my name was well known and I gained power along with that. I lived in an area of New Jersey where the politicians who represented us were most likely to vote in favor of women’s issues and in support of women’s issues and most African American and women. The most diverse group of politicians in the state. You had Sheila Oliver who is now the Lieutenant Governor who I persuaded along with along with other community leaders to endorse and sponsor the Paid Family Leave legislation and she did. She did. She was very good, very good.

 

So, I guess, how did you become a leader in NOW and what roles did you have?

Well, when the president of NOW decided she wasn’t going to re-run, I was talked into stepping up to the plate. And I ran. I ran for President. And I ran for President and won.

40:00

 So, are you talking about for the Essex County chapter of the New Jersey one?

New Jersey.

 

So, before that were you president of Essex County or was that later?

No. Before that I, we revised the Essex County chapter because Essex County is the most diverse county in the state. We called it Women of Color and Allies. So, we had a combined group. African Americans, Latinos, some women from India and all over as a part of our chapter. Our chapter was the most diverse chapter. And we really addressed some really good issues to make the black community pay attention to women’s issues. And to pay attention to how important those issues are. We could educate our community and that was a very important thing that we did. And after we began all the work we did more women became interested in joining women’s organizations. The National Council for Negro Women group and some of those women joined my chapter. Amina Baraka joined my chapter, the Essex County Chapter. Women of Color and Allies, better known as WOCA and Flo Kennedy’s sister who also lived in East Orange joined our chapter and allowed us to have chapter meetings in her home. She had a little small mansion on Park Avenue. In East Orange.

 

So, you helped found the WOCA chapter, in transition?

 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I’m a founder of WOCA, yes.

 

So, when did you get involved with the state level organization?

When I ran for president. When I won the election.

 

What year was that?

 But I was always part of the state. They immediately wanted me as vice president of affirmative action. As Vice President of Affirmative Action.

 

So, when you ran for President you were currently one of the Vice Presidents on the board?

 Yes. And I had also made contributions to the NOW newsletter as well, talking about affirmative action.

 

So, is that a state newsletter?

Yes.

 

So, you became president in 2006, right?

Yes.

 

And when was WOCA founded?

Right after, uh, we had the WOCA conference in Arlington, Virginia.

 

Oh okay.

Yes. When I got back I decided it should be done. I said to Barbara, “hey, why don’t we start a chapter in Essex County so that we can recruit more women of color to NOW because this is a very White organization.

 

Right. 

And most of the women in that, some of the women in there, some of the old timers, felt that it was just their organization. I could tell that by some of the comments that were made to me. And it’s too bad. It really is because they were trying to fool people. I realized that they really needed me because I opened up the door to a lot of politicians, our political representatives for NOW to come through the door and meet with them about important issues. I had the ability to do that. That was my work, that was mine, because I, I had, I worked hard to establish relationships with people like Sheila Oliver, Leroy Jones, Cory Booker, people like that. I could walk up to them and talk to them like I could talk to every day people. So, they didn’t know that I realized that, but I really did. I know it was important. They tried to play it down, it wasn’t a big thing, but I knew it was.

 

So, what did you work on as state president of NOW?

I worked on welfare reform. I worked on trying to get Barbara Buono elected as governor. I thought she would have been terrific. You remember Barbara Buono, right?

 

No. I might have been too young.

Yeah. Okay. That’s right. You are young. I still think of myself—

I’m seventy and I still think of myself as being young. I’m in a nursing home, but I’m a young nursing home person. Yes. 

47:45

So, I had seen that you worked on the Paid Family Leave bill?

Yes. Yes. I helped push it. I worked with New Jersey Citizen Action.

 

What is that?

That is a grassroots organization that has been instrumental in pushing through some important bills that families can benefit from. Economically. The energy program that helps people with their taxes. And other things that they need.

 

So, did you mostly do like organizing rallies or give testimony? What did you do generally to try to support bills?

I opened doors. I used my resources to open a door. Being persuasive. Every politician wants to know somebody in the field of communications. They want access to that microphone. They want free exposure. Political or public exposure. That they don’t have to pay for. That was me. I could do that. I could interview anybody on the radio that I wanted to interview at any time I wanted to do it. That’s something they live for. I could open the door. Yes. I could do that.

 

So, how long were you hosting the radio show for?

Oh. Two or three years. Up until I had my first stroke. I had to take a break for a while. Then I went back.

 

Oh. So, you did it up until a few years back, so multiple decades. That’s nice.

Yes.

 

Do you have a favorite episode or a topic you discussed?

Yes. One New Year’s our show aired late at night and Fran and I put together a menu of feminist music and that was so much fun. A lot of fun.

 

That sounds fun.

Yeah. She shared her music with me. See, Fran was older that me. And there was definitely a difference in our point of view but also the same. We agree, but we also disagree. I was able learn a great deal from her.

 

So, can you recall your proudest moment or achievement with NOW?

When I became president of NOW. Yes.

 

What did you have to do to become president? Was it mainly like giving a speech at the conference or gathering support.

Gather support, for which I had already gained as president of Essex County, make a speech, and get people to vote for me. Yes. It wasn’t easy. Elections can be very difficult.

 

So, how has your involvement with NOW impacted your life?

It changed the way I think. I think I am more serious now than I ever have been in my life. I take things very seriously when it comes to women. Other things I used to take for granted I don’t do now.

 

Like what?

Things people might say about women. Jokes and things of that nature. I don’t take it for granted. If it’s not positive, I’m going to question it. And find out what they really mean when they say the things the way they do. “Excuse me? What did you say, and why did you say that?” And usually they’re wrong. Including women. Women can also be very negative about women.

 

That’s true.

I heard - “All those feminists have ruined things for us, and now we can’t get men to do anything. They don’t want to open the door. They don’t want to do this,” I said - That’s not feminist’s fault if they don’t want to do that - why are you blaming it on us. It has something to do with the man and the way he sees women, the way he sees his mother and sister or his girlfriend or his wife.

 

So, were your family and friends supportive of your involvement in the Women’s Rights Movement?

Mhmm. My son and his wife and a few of my cousins. But not my sister. My sister is a totally different flavor of a person than I am.

 

Did she just have different views or did she disagree that you were working on a specific issue?

She has a different view. For example, if a man was to say something insulting about women, she would make an excuse for it and defend him. No matter what. Yeah, she’s a good girl. I call her miss goody two shoes. (laughter)

And you have beautiful teeth. Beautiful.

 

Thanks.

Mhmm. Your name is Elyse?

 

Isha

I was going to call you Ayisha, but it’s Isha. I apologize for messing up your name.

 

Oh, No worries.

People mess up my name all the time.

 

Yeah. I’m used to it. There are also a lot of common names that are sort of similar to my name so it makes sense.

Mhmm. Yes.

 

So, when did you have your son and what was your personal life like since leaving college and after?

56:46

Well, I had my son before I went to college. I was married and I returned to college. I wanted to earn more money for my family. The only way I could see doing that was to further my education. And to become more valuable to the workforce. And I talked to my husband about it and he agreed that he would take care of our son while I go to college. And that’s the way it was done.

So, were you originally, did you just start work after high school and you went back to college later? 

Yes. I worked for about 25 years at Greystone Psychiatric Hospital. That’s where I met my husband. He was working there too.

What were you doing there? What was your job? 

I started working out as a food service worker. And then I transferred to the occupational therapy department. I became an occupational therapy assistant.

Oh nice. 

Yes. Work I really enjoyed doing. And I meant to further my education in that field, but I could not find a school that, uh, would allow me to major in it so I opted for communications. Everybody, everywhere I went, ever since I was a youngster, always praised my voice. I said, well, I need to do something with my voice and I majored in broadcast communications. And ended up becoming a broadcast journalist at WBRAI radio. Not because I was looking for a job but because someone discovered me and brought me in. Isn’t that amazing? That’s how life is. And people always ask me, “Maretta, how do you get involved in the things you get involved in? How do you get to know this person? How do you do that? How do you end up on television?” I said, it just happened. It’s my personality maybe. You have to let people know you’re there. If they don’t know you’re there, they’ll never think about you.

1:00:04

You have to leave an impression on people in some way. You’re going to sit in a room and say nothing to a person? If that’s what life is going to be about then I want nothing to do with it (possible cover quote) Okay? And that’s the way I am. I’ve been lucky enough to run into some dynamic people. I met the lady who portrayed Aunt Jemima. Her name was Ethel Harper and she was used to portray Aunt Jemima on many commercials. She was a wonderful lady. She, too, was also in radio. She taught African American studies at Morristown. She was a wonderful person, beautiful voice, and she cared about people. She had a heart. Ethel was terrific, a terrific person, and I met her just by chance. Sitting in a doctor’s office.

 

Wow. 

I met her. Yes. And we began talking. Somebody lit a cigarette. And she had a deep tone, “she was like, don’t lit up that cigarette, what are you trying to kill me? Can’t you see I’m an older woman? Don’t you have any respect? Put that out.” In a very commanding voice. I think at the time Ethel must have been about the age I am now. She was just not going to have it. That’s when people became really nasty when it came to smoking a cigarette. I felt bad for the guy she must have embarrassed so bad. I think he must have crawled out of the doctor’s office. Oh my goodness. The poor guy.

 

Oh, sorry, I forgot to ask a couple details. When did you say you moved to Newark as a child? How old were you?

 I was a young girl, about five years old. About five years old. When I first moved to Jersey, I lived in Morristown.

 

You were in Morristown and then you moved to Newark later?

Yes.

 I began school in Morristown first. I lived on Cleveland Avenue in Morristown. With my mother and she found a babysitter. Her name was Miss Pettigrew. She was a wonderful lady too, very nice, and she could cook just like my grandmother. She was great. My mother worked and my sister and I lived with Miss Pettigrew and she treated us like we were her own children. It was so nice. Nice house. Clean. Organized. Meals every day at the same time. Nice big backyard. A playroom and everything. I could go on. I was disappointed when my mother came and told her that she was getting married again and that she was going to take my sister and I to live with her and her new husband. I didn’t like that at all.

When was this? 

This was when we were about six or seven years old. My sister Melinda and I, we couldn’t stand it. It didn’t seem right. Because we had finally found a place where we had felt very comfortable and loved and welcomed and after moving from place to place And then my mother had decided she was going to get married again. Ugh. Parents. What are they thinking of?

1:05:13

So, is that why you moved to Newark?

Yes. That’s how we ended up moving to Newark. On Stone Street, in the Italian community.

Interesting. It must have been a whole different—

Newark is very diverse, but you were in the Italian part?

 Yes. It was an Italian community. Always. So, don’t mess with me (laughter).

So, going back to your involvement in the Women’s Movement, since your involvement in the feminist movement, do you think that progress has been made or are we still fighting for the same rights?

We have to still fight for the same rights because recently over a hundred and seventy nurses in Illinois went on strike because of inequality and pay. The male nurses were getting paid more than they were. They were short-staffed and just being taken advantage of and disrespected. So, we still have to fight for pay, equity. The same things we have been fighting about for years. The same thing we’ve been fighting about for years and years and years. Same old thing.

[Annotation 7]

So, what do you see as the biggest impediment in the Women’s Rights Movement going forward? 

Impediment…hmmm…Well, one thing I will tell you we made progress on has been the signing of the Lily Ledbetter Act by Obama. It was the first bill he signed when he came into office. A woman by the name of Ledbetter was cheated out of her money by Goodyear tire company. She was one of the only female managers at that company. And she worked there for a very long time and discovered that the men who were hired after her were getting/given a higher level pay then she was for doing the same job that she was doing and she filed a…they didn’t tell her about the change in the pay level. They didn’t send her a memo to let her know that, hey, we’re going to pay Joe Schmo thirty dollars more than we’re paying you. Because he’s a man and you’re a woman. Of course, they knew better than to do that.

 

Right.  

And I met her at a NOW conference as well.

 

One other thing I forgot to ask, how old were you when you went back to college?

I was well in my thirties. Early thirties.

 

Okay. So, what was it like being in college, like, with a lot of younger students? Was that an interesting experience?

They had no mercy, no mercy on me. And they were really pissed off at the fact that I would type my notes. I typed my notes up. I learned to type well when I was in high school. I was, I lived in special housing for older students.

1:10:00

And I would sit in the dining room at the dining room table and I would have my typewriter there and would type up the notes from that day’s class. And they said, why are you typing your notes? I take my notes and never look at them again. I said, well how are you passing your class? That’s why you take notes. You take notes so you can go over them and read them so you know what subject to focus on when you study. How do you study? I didn’t get it at all. And they would party and drink and whatever and I would wake up the next morning early before everybody else. I partied with them the night before. I would get up in the morning and step over them and go to class. That’s what it was like. They were kind of playing the head game on me. Trying to get me messed up.

 

So, you said you were in Mahwah, right? 

Yes.

So, where were your son and husband living at the time? 

Back in Dover. Dover. That’s where—

I went to Morristown College first and graduated and transferred and Ramapo took all of my credits from Morristown. Morristown is a very good school with very good teachers.

 

So, when did you go to Morristown?

I went to Morristown in the seventies.

 

So, that was like right after high school?

Not right after high school. When I got out of high school, I worked at Greystone Park.

 

Okay, so you worked at the hospital and then you went to Morristown and then decided to transfer to Ramapo?

Yes.

 So, why did you decide to transfer?

Well, I wanted to go…Ramapo was a barrier free college that had the tools of a first- time college student, first generation. Which means there weren’t many other people in my family with a college degree. So, I didn’t have the resources that other kids had. My parents didn’t go to college. I didn’t know anything about it, really. Other than going to Morris County, which was like a maze for me in many ways. And Ramapo was in Mahwah, which was a totally different county than Bergen, different environment. Even more rural area. Indians and everything. So, that’s why I chose Ramapo and the price. The money. It was a state college and didn’t cost a lot of money. Which I did not really have, so I was depending on scholarships and grants. I won a scholarship from the American Association of University Women. To start me off and get my tuition paid.

[Annotation 4]

That’s awesome! I got a scholarship from AAUW.

 Really? Congratulations. Very good.

 

Thanks.

They’re doing some good things. We had to go back and do something too. A lot of people don’t know about them. But a friend of mine who was a member of the Dover chapter encouraged me to complete an application. And that’s how I ended up getting involved with that.

1:15:00

And NOW and AAUW are very closely related. Most of the members of that organization are members of NOW.

So, what did you do after college? Did you work at the hospital again, or did you transition into a different job?

I went into education. I became an interim instructor for the public school system and I taught grades K-12. In almost every subject.

So, did you like working with kids? 

Yes. I loved it. Quite a bit. Takes a great deal of patience to work with today’s children.

 

True. So, how long were you doing that for?

For about two years I would say and after that I worked for a senior citizens residence building in social services.

 

Did you like doing that?

Yes. It was nice. It’s not that much different, working with senior citizens in comparison to working with children. It’s not that big of a difference. Both groups require a great deal of patience and understanding. And you have to listen. And be observant. You really have to be observant and watch both groups and care about their safety. Yes, you do. Senior citizens, I’ve never met a group of people who are so unalike each other. I mean, you might get one senior citizen who is able to run up a set of stairs, you get another one who smokes and can’t walk from here to there, and then you find one who loves dance and stays on the dance floor. And one who just won’t do a goddone thing for themselves. They’re funny. And the men when they get older, they become comedians. Yes, they do, they develop a sense of humor that is out of this world. Yes, they’re cute like kids too. Yes, they are.

 

So, were you working there for a while then?

 Yeah. For about ten years.

 

So, after that, did you transition to a different job, or was that when you did more women’s rights stuff and focused on that more?

No. I did more cultural things with senior citizens. If there was a black history month, we would organize a black history month program for them and they would participate. Some of them sang, some of them danced, some of them gave speeches or read poetry. Something like that. And then we had arts and crafts as well. And bingo. Of course, if you have older people you gotta play bingo. You gotta have bingo, oh yes. That’s a requirement.

 

So, after you worked at the senior citizen’s home, what did you do?

Well, after that I found myself working for Bloomfield College as a Student Activities Director Assistant a long time. But it’s no big thing. Where I learned to organize other things. Such as new student orientation and other activities. Graduation. So on and so forth. Which was also a lot of fun. Very exciting.

 

You seem like you’re involved in helping out a lot of different demographics.

That’s the important thing.

 So, I guess, were you more busy with work most of the week, and then would you do your radio show on the weekend or activism stuff on the weekend? How did you do that? How did you balance the two?

Well, the show was in the morning, 11 o’clock we went on, so I would get up early in the morning and travel from New Jersey to New York for to do the show for one hour and then I could get out and get back to New Jersey about two hours later. I would be home. And I could work from home. I set up in the office in my home because the administration before me rented the NOW office out to an LGBTQ organization. For financial reasons. Oh, and that’s another thing: when it comes to women’s organizations, it is very difficult to raise money, especially since we advocate in favor of abortion.

[Annotation 8]

1:22:40

So, it’s hard to get the money. It’s a lot easier for the LGBTQ organization to recruit money. They have money falling from the sky it looks like. And for a while (unintelligible) were in active because they were babysitting gay men who had AIDS and things of that nature. But when we began addressing their issues, they would not join us. They kept to themselves and we lost control.

 

What do you mean?

It means that NOW no longer has leadership.

 

So, are you talking about the national level or the state level?

State level. So, there’s an ample number of members who are not there to push for women’s organizations but rather to push for their own agenda, which was gay rights. Understand?

 

Mhmm. So, when did this happen?

Just before I left. And I lost the last election.

 

So, how long were you president for?

I was president for two terms of four years. Eight years I was the president.

 

So, you’re saying that even though NOW was fighting for gay rights, that became the primary thing, which was not the main purpose?

Yes. Yes. And a lot of the members of NOW were not actively involved in fighting for women’s rights. And once a new president got in they just couldn’t handle the job. They’d fall apart and quit.

 

Yeah. I see that because my mom is president now.

Yeah. Well, you gotta help her. That’s very important. If you see her stressing out, take something and do it. It doesn’t matter what it is, take it off her hands. And she…just do it. Don’t complain about it. Okay? Will you do that for me?

Yes, for sure.

Okay.

 

So, after you were state president, did you go back to the Essex County chapter? 

Yes, I did. And it kept me above board.

 

What kind of stuff did you get involved with? 

Well, there was woman who had been raped by one of the Mayor’s in Essex County who came to us and we had a rally outside of Irvington City Hall on behalf of violence against women. And I gave a conference. I organized a conference at Rutgers University for the students and members of the community on violence against women.

When was this? 

That was about five years ago. About five years ago.

Okay. I also saw that you were involved in the War on Women Rally in 2012 in Trenton? 

Yes. I’m a real rally woman. I’m rowdy too.

 

So, what were the biggest events that you participated in that you think were the most important?

A big event was when I was honored by the National Council of Negro Women. Yes, that was very big. And I was also given a commendation by the New Jersey Legislature as well.

 

Nice. So, were those two separate occasions?

Yes.

 

So, what was it like being honored by the National Council of Negro Women?

I felt like I had come home.

Wow—

Crosstalk—

Oh, I’m sorry, continue.

I felt like I was a prodigal daughter who had come home. Because I had never felt welcome in organizations like that before, because they were always the upper class Black women in the community. They didn’t really affiliate with the working class. Like I guess in every race of people you might have that situation.

[Annotation 9]

So, when—

It felt good.

 

Yeah. It must have been a great moment.

Mhmm.

So, when was that?

That was four years ago.

 

Okay. And was that in New Jersey or where was that? 

New Jersey. Newark, New Jersey.

Okay. And you said you were also honored by the New Jersey Legislature? 

Yes. Yes, I was.

 

So, when was that and what was that for?

My work on welfare reform. All of my activist work against racial profiling.

1:30:19

Oh, so what work did you do on racial profiling?

A lot of marching. Walking (unintelligible sounds). And we worked with other organizations such as the NAACP and the People’s Organization for Progress. That’s another group that did a lot of walking. I mean they walked and walked and walked.

 

So, what did, what is the biggest difference between right now, 2020, and when you first joined, like how is the larger women’s rights movement changed?

I would say it’s not as unified. It’s not as tight. It’s more diverse, but the members aren’t as dedicated as they were. I mean, when I joined there were people dying and leaving money to them. That’s how they made their money. They inherited money.

 

Mhmm.

Mhmm. But that type of dedication no longer exists. I mean we got it all together now. We have equal pay, we have the title, we’ve gone through the glass ceilings and everything. Why should women care now?

 

So, do you think everything has been won and the work is done or is it just different work now?

I think it’s different and in a different way. We have technology today. We have Zoom. It makes things easier. You don’t really need as much money. You need equipment.

 

Mhmm.

Which is also expensive. You need women with know-how. One of the things that I did not do, I did not screen the women the way the women had been screened before. NOW has some of the most intelligent women, intelligent women working in NOW, mostly lawyers working in NOW. One thing I noticed as president was that lawyers would just come up to me and give me their card and I would be like, “Why are you giving me your card?,” and later as I went on I found out that I needed those references to help other women. I needed that. Someone used to try to get me to go to conferences for lawyers. I was like, “Why are they pushing me to do that?” I didn’t need a lawyer, but I did need a lawyer.

1:34:07

So, what are the most important women’s issues to focus on now as compared to in the past?

Racism is a very important issue to address. Some people don’t consider race a women’s issue, but it is. It always has been. Ever since the boys were accused of raping that White woman years ago. By White women. That was very racist. Yup.

[Annotation 10] 

So, can you expand/explain more about how racism is a women’s issue? Because I think it’s becoming more of a focus now, all around the country as well.

Because when it comes to something such as gay rights or rights, they’ve always used one case to sent precedents, which is Brown vs. Board of Education, which is a pivotal case used as civil rights cases and all of them to prove inequality. Separate is not equal. Okay?

 

Mhmm. So, did you work on issues of racism while you were president of NOW?

Yes. Yes. We had a big rally in Morristown when the KKK came to town. We confronted them face to face. A couple of young kids got arrested for throwing bagels at them. A little sixteen year-old girl got arrested for throwing a bagel at them. The bagel must have had a jagged edge.

 

Yeah. That’s crazy. It’s not even stones. It’s just a bagel.

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, “Is this police brutality? No.” And some of the young kids threw water bottles at them. Young kids are not playing with existing racism. They really don’t want to hear it. They don’t. I’m very proud of them. They’re speaking up.

So, did you kind of have to have a lot of conversations in NOW about how racism was a women’s issue and was that an important thing that you emphasized as president?

Well, it’s a racism issue in NOW because many of the White women are interracially married and many of their children are young children of color so they relate to issues when there’s police brutality. They don’t want it either. They’re very turned off by that stuff. Because you’re talking about their children. A great deal of them are also school teachers. You’re talking about their students. It’s a family issue. Working with children every day, to develop their mind. They work with them every day and they’re being killed. They’re their children. That’s what they say. “These are my kids.” They take possession. They do. It is a women’s issue. Children are a women’s issue, is a women’s issue. Mhmm.

[Annotation 5] 

So, you mentioned Barbara Foley. Is there anyone else that you were, that you worked with during NOW and that you became close with?

Oh yes. Usually the national president and I were close.

1:40:00

 Great. So, who was the president at the time?

Oh. We had many presidents. I’m trying to remember the name. As I get older, I find my memory getting a little foggy.

 

Yeah. That’s understandable. Or even just like the New Jersey board. Who did you work the most with and who were you friends?

Well, there was a young African American girl who ran for President of National NOW. She didn’t make it. Her name was Latifah Lyle. I worked pretty closely with Latifah and I was really hoping she would win. I think she would have been great. And that was when Obama was President and I thought that was very timely for the President of NOW and the President of the US to be people of color at the same time. Maybe we could get somewhere. You know? No one else could see that. She got dumped on. Because she was close to the previous president and they were afraid Latifah would be taking orders from her and they wanted her out. I didn’t understand all that. Kim Gandy. Kim Gandy was her name. She was the President of NOW. Yeah. She was a great woman. Kim Gandy. She was fine. She had great issues. A great perception regarding racism. I never felt any from her. Very accessible. Easy to talk to. Very humanistic person.

 

You also mentioned recently for your birthday a lot of your activist friends were on the call?

Yes. Oh yes. Yes. I have colored flowers across from my (unintelligible). Can you see them?

 

The flowers?

Yes.

 

Yeah. They’re very pretty. Oh, the balloons.

The balloons. Yes. All my cards yes.

 

That’s so nice.

This one is from Sophia Short. That’s my granddaughter. That’s her name. This is her computer. She said, “Grandma, use it.” And her headset. Can you hear me okay?

 

Yes. Great. So, who were your friends that you were closest with from activism?

I’m a good friend of the President of the NAACP, James Harris. Larry Hamm, who recently ran for the Senate. He’s with the People’s Organization for Progress. Better known as POP. The president of the Industrial Union. Linda. I can’t remember Linda’s last name.

 

That’s fine. I can probably find it.

1:45:00

And the director of New Jersey Citizen Action, Phyllis Salowe, yes. Yes, they are another one, some really great things coming out of that organization, some really great legislation. (Note: I think she said she used to be on our board.) I miss going to WBAI, to the radio studio. That was so cool.

 

Mhmm. Do you still keep in contact with Fran?

 I try to. She’s so busy. She has to do the show alone now. She’s really busy. It’s a lot of work. People just don’t see the work that goes into producing a show. A lot of research, making phone calls. Everything is based on timing. You gotta be on time.

 

Right.

Yes.

 

So, did you invite any famous guests on the show when you were you were working there?

Yes. I had Angela Davis on. I interviewed her.

 

Wow.

Sweet Honey in the Rock. Have you ever heard of them?

 

No.

Okay. You have to get an album by Sweet Honey in the Rock. They sing without music.

Oh okay.

They’re very good. A very good group. You’ll have to go get that now or you’ll be sorry.

 

So, what advice do you have for the next generation of women?

Keep your eyes on the prize. Don’t stop. You can give out, but don’t give up. You might get tired. Sit down and rest but get back up and try again. Sometimes things can be seem very disenchanting and seem like you’re not going to make any progress, but you can’t give up. Keep trying and trying and trying until you reach your goal. That’s what we all have to do.

1:46:15

Even in my old age, I still have to do that. It can be very tiring.

So, are there any other important things or events that you wanted to talk about that have to do with your involvement in the women’s movement?

Yes. I would like to talk about an interview I had with Dr. King’s cousin on Joy of Resistance. She went right along with the right-to-lifers and I couldn’t understand why. I really couldn’t. There’s violence in almost everything and when people kill other people because of the way they think, it’s the worst kind of violence.

(1:50:15)

That’s hatred. I disagree with that and I’m not going to kill anyone for doing it (thinking a different way.) Who do they think they are for killing somebody for the way they think? That’s a violation of our first amendment rights. We have the right to express ourselves and believe what we want to believe. If we don’t have those rights, then how can we be human? How can we love each other? How can we get along? We need to give each other space to have an opinion, and we’re not willing to.

[Annotation 6]

(cut out.)

Okay.

Sorry, it cut out. 

Okay. Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.

Yeah. This was great. Thank you so much for agreeing to the interview. I’m going to do a write-up for the NOW state conference book and I’ll send that to you to look over as well.

The NOW state what?

 

The state conference book. We are having a state conference this year, a virtual conference so the booklet is going to have a little bio on you.

Okay. Okay. Thank you. How are you going to send it? Through the mail?

 

Uh. I’ll just email you.

Okay. You got my email address?

 

Yes.

Okay. Isha. Not Ayisha, but Isha, right?

 

Yes.

Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this; it was fun.

 

Yes. This was great.

Now, are you doing this as a school project or is it a job project?

 

I’m just volunteering and helping out with the NOW project, but I also work, so I have a separate job.

Okay. And you’re in Communications?

 

Actually, no, I’m in Computer Science.

Okay, great. My granddaughter is ten years old and she just graduated from the NJIT pre-college summer program.

 

Wow. That’s impressive.

Yeah. She’s very much into computers also. Her name is Sophia.

 

How old did you say she was?

Ten. Isn’t that something? I’m so proud of her. I’m going to encourage her to do all she can do while she can do it. And don’t give up. No whining.

 

And, how old is your son?

He’s about 38. 38 going on 100. He acts like he’s my daddy. He takes good care of me. I did a good job with that boy, as busy as I was as a mother. I’m proud of him. He has a nice family, a beautiful wife—who is a school teacher—and a very smart daughter, who is the love of my life. So, at least I raised one man who will support NOW because his mother was a part of it.

So, tell me about your mother. How does she like NOW? Do you have a picture of her? I want to see if I know who she is.

Her name is Anjali. I can try to find a picture.

Anja— 

Anjali.

 

Yeah. (looks for and finds picture.) 

Oh, how pretty. Go head Anjali. All right.

1:55:45

I’ll try to show you the picture.

Yeah. Can you get closer? Yeah. She is so pretty. Does she work in television?

 

(laughs) No. She mostly focuses on politics and she does a lot of design, so she focuses on social media for campaigns. 

Uh huh. Okay.

Yeah. But she loves NOW and is very involved, even as President of NOW New Jersey, working on different legislation and things even from home during Coronavirus.

Where is your family from?

So, my parents grew up in India, but they came here for college. So, I’ve been in New Jersey my whole life basically. 

And how do you feel about Biden and—

Who does NOW endorse? Do you know?

For President?

Yes.

So, during the primary I know it was (pause) I believe it was Elizabeth Warren, or maybe it was Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar as, when there was two women, but now for the election they are supporting Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, so they are working on that. 

Mhmm. Great. Great. Tell your mother that I’m looking to hear some thing about NOW in the media. Did Talent I ever call her? They used to call me all the time to come in for an interview.

 

Yeah. I think there’s less TV and now it’s all online. On the web with videos and things so I think she’s been doing a lot of like, press releases. That’s all on the website and in the Star-Ledger and she’s written some Op-Eds and things like that.

 Yeah. And here’s a tip. Tell her the more she has written on the webpage, the less contact she has to have with reporters for an interview.  They can pull a quote from whatever she writes and signs on to put in their article. If she gives them permission to do that. That will help save her some time. Because they will wear you down.

Yeah. I also think you have to respond really quickly because the articles are all about timeliness like you were saying.

Yeah. And I want to see her on tv, because I want to see her on tv, and she has to get there. She’s too pretty to be invisible.

 

Okay. I will tell her. 

Make sure you do that for me. Okay?

Yes. 

So, she’s the first pretty president.

(awkward laughter) Well, I definitely think she’s the first South Asian president. 

Yes, she is. She’s the first—

The second woman of color. All right. Very good. Good for you.

Thanks. Well, thank you so much for doing this interview. I really appreciate it. It was great hearing from your experiences 

(someone in another room: You done?)

Yes. We’re done. Wana. That’s Wana. Did you meet Wana? You talked to her on the phone?

No. Yeah. We talked on the phone. 

Okay. Well, she’s here now to get the computer

Okay. Sounds good. (off side, Wana: You done?)

End of file

(2:00:33)