Alan Gross first moved to New Jersey for graduate school in the late 1960s and found the Princeton chapter of NOW. He considers himself a support person for what the organization does and has been active since the 1980s. Retired social worker Skip Drumm first heard of NOW at a friend’s house in 1974 and has been active ever since. They have both served in leadership roles and discuss how the organization has evolved.
“So, you know, don’t let men run over you. That would be my advice (laughs). Um, you know, take your share of the leadership and take your share of the credit.”
“How has NOW impacted the rest of my life. Well, it’s, it has given a…I don’t know that platform is the right word, but it’s given me the basis to live my life. To live out my values. To be an activist. To do things that made a difference…”
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: “The True Cost of Low Prices Is Exploited Workers,” Economic Policy Institute, June 16, 2015.
Learn More [2]: Nisha Varia, “This Is How Women Are Exploited in Today’s Global Workforce,” Human Rights Watch (blog), March 8, 2016.
Learn More [3]: Shilpa Phadke and Diana Boesch, “Treading Water: The Current Challenges of Women’s Work,” Center for American Progress (blog), January 18, 2019.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Lexi Abrams
August 1, 2020
Transcription by Ryan Neely
Annotations by Destiny Morales
[Note on COVID-19: Due to strict social distancing guidelines, this interview was hosted as a phone call and recorded using a mobile application.]
0:00:00:0
(Sounds of typing)
0:01:14.6
Hi!
Alan Gross: Hi Lexi.
Hi, how are you?
AG: I’m good. I’m waiting for Skip. How are you?
I’m good. I’m good. Very excited for the interview.
AG: Yea, you said that in the e-mail, I’m—I don’t know that I’m excited, but you know, we’ll (chuckles)—we will do it just fine, it’ll get—it’ll, it’ll work.
Yes. Yes, hopefully. I really like your shirt.
AG: Ah, thank you! Um, I chose it for this interview.
Perfect, um—
AG: Um—
I think the zoom started recording already. Um, I think I can probably do a little bit of interweaving also cause that might make it go a little bit faster, I don’t wanna keep you guys here for um, a really long time. But I think we can just start off, so, usually the way we start these off is we um, just like give a little background and like, we’re gonna make this into a transcript, so just to like give a sense. Um, so, um, what both sides are gonna do is I’ll say my full name, um, where I live, um, the location of the interview, so like, my room and then the date of the interview. Um, so I can just start off with that and then you guys can do the same thing. So, my name is Lexi Abrams, um, I am currently in Short Hills, New Jersey in my bedroom and the interview date is… it’s five minutes past five o clock on August 1st, 2020. Um, so if you guys just wanna say your full names, um, and maybe like the town that you’re in and also both of your date of births.
Skip Drumm: Well, I’m, I’m Skip Drumm and we are broadcast to you from our kitchen
AG: --in Somerset, New Jersey—
SD: Right.
Um, and then date of birth, super fast.
SD: Birthday?
AG: Yea.
SD: 9/23/38. I will be 82 in a couple of months!
That’s so exciting!
SD: Yea!
And what about you, Alan? Date of birth.
AG: I’m Alan Gross, um; I’m also in the kitchen in Somerset, NJ
(AG and SD chuckle)
AG: On August 1st, 2020 and my birthday is the day before Skip’s, um, but um, uh September 22nd 1945, so she’s seven years older than I am. Um, well for one day she’s only six years older. (chuckles) Cause my birthday’s the day before hers.
0:03:48.1
Got it. Got it. I have um, friends who one of them just turned 18 and then the other girl turns 17 a day after, so for one day they’re two years apart, and then the, the rest of the year they’re one year apart and they always like to celebrate that one day that they’re two years apart. Um, OK, I guess we could just get right into the questions. Um, so what I can do is I’ll ask Skip the question um, then she can answer and then I will say the question one more time for Alan. Is that…? Does that work—
AG: Sure, that works for me.
Perfect, um.
SD: I suppose it works for me, we’ll soon find out. My hearing is not as great as it used to be. So, if you went with Alan, I might get a sense of what the questions are gonna be.
AG: I have the volume up as high as it will go, I believe, it’s the volume. Yea. I have the volume up as high. Ok.
SD: That’s good, that’s good.
OK, I can start with Alan so that Skip gets a sense of, so you get a sense of the question. That’s totally fine. Um, Ok, I think we can just get right into it. This is very nice that I’m recording so I don’t have to take any notes, I can just listen. Um, so the first question is for Alan, um, can you tell me a bit about your background? So, where you were born, where you went to school and kind of just like what your family was like.
AG: Um, I was um, born in Brooklyn, New York. Cause my father was in the army, they—my parents grew up in Brooklyn, um, my father went to California and then a year later, two years later when my mother turned 21, she followed him and they got married shortly after she arrived and um, and then he went into the army. Actually the army Air Force. And then uh, she came—when she was pregnant with me she came back to Brooklyn to her parents, which is why I was born in Brooklyn. So I really grew up in California because that’s where they went back to after World War II. And um, I was gonna say my mother was a feminist, but I think my father was feminist also. Um, he um, he was the youngest of seven and he had um, just trying to count…at least three sisters and three brothers I guess too. Um, and uh, and my mother used to say uh, “Women can do anything a man can do.” And this was in like 1955, way before, before uh, National Organization for Women was founded.
0:06:40.8
AG: And um, um. My father when I was five years old he gave me a little tool kit and I have two sisters and a brother and each of them when they turned five, they got their own tool kit, sisters included, with a saw and a hammer and nails and a screwdriver. I have the scars to prove it.
(SD laughs)
(AG chuckles)
AG: Um, so we were, we were pretty much all treated equally. Um, I used to chafe that my mother wanted me to open the car door for her because after all, women could do anything a man could do. But um, so she wasn’t totally consistent. Um, what else do I wanna..? I don’t know how detailed to get here. Um, in—I mean she just died a couple a years ago at the age of 97. Um, she got a human (coughs)—excuse me—a human rights award from um, from Adam Schiff. As he was member—he was the member—he still is—the member of congress where she lived in Burbank, California. And um, so she was active, especially, my my father died fairly young in 1973, so my mother had a full life, you know, after that. Uh, 40 years and um, she did a lot of community things. She organized the Holocaust Memorial ceremonies in Burbank. And um…um, um, what else? I’m getting a little off track here. Um, so I had always, I guess, been a feminist. I came, I went to Pomona College and got a degree in mathematics and then I went to graduate school at Princeton University. And um, while I was there I started folk dancing and because I was folk dancing, I met community members, and this was 1967, 68, 69. And that was when NOW was just getting started and there was a, a very active chapter of NOW in Princeton and I knew some of the NOW members back then. Um, and uh, so then, then they wanted to draft me and I, I got a, a defense job back in California so I did that for two and a half years and then I went back to Princeton and finished my uh, graduate degree in statistics. Um, and I started to work at Bell Labs and at some point about five years after I was working there, um, a uh, a feminist said to my, to one of my co-workers, “You know, you say your, your for women’s right, why aren’t you a member of the women’s group in, at Bell Labs at the time?” And, I was sitting right there, that’s a—she was just, she w—he was her boss and she was just giving him a hard time. But I thought, “That’s a good idea.” Um, so I join—I don’t know if he ever did. I don’t think he did, but I joined the Women’s—it was called the Women’s Rights Caucus. And that was in 1978, maybe early ’79.
0:10:04.9
Um, and I didn’t miss—meet Skip until late ‘70—late ’80, early ’81. So I was already a member of a women’s group before I met Skip. Um, I don’t know, I guess we can leave my background there and come back to it if you—if there’s more that’s relevant.
Yea, um, you wanna, Skip do you wanna, just tell me a little bit about your background? I can say the question one more time, um, so background and then where you were born, um, where you went to school, and then what your family was like growing up.
SD: Well, I was born into the most non-feminist family you could imagine. (Chuckles). Um, born in Georgia, raised in Virginia. Um, and I really didn’t know anything about feminism or…women’s right or anything like that. Um, but I was married and one day my husband called me at work and said, “I moved out this morning.” Shock. So, a friend of mine was in my office at the time and she said, “Why don’t you come have dinner with me and the kids and we can talk.” So I did. And on the coffee table in her living room was a NOW brochure complete with membership form. So I read it, I filled it out that night, mailed it the next day and that’s how I became a member of N.OW. Let’s see, what have I missed?
AG: Well, you’re a sociology major.
SD: Oh yea! Yea, I ma—I majored in sociology in college and I did social work for well, for years until I graduated—I mean until I retired. Which is a form of graduation I guess. (laughs).
0:12:25.6
SD: Um, and what, what am I missing?
Um, if you just wanna tell me a little bit more about like, how you grew up, um, in like that family. I think you said you started in Virginia, right?
SD: I—by the way I do have a hearing disability so I may ask you or ask Alan over what’s been said, just to make sure I stay part of the conversation. Um, so let’s see where does that leave us?
AG: More about growing up, um…
SD: Oh. Growing up, yea, that. (Laughs) Um, well my father was king of the household and my mother was subservient and this is the life that I grew up knowing and anticipating that I would follow. Um, but like I said, my husband called me at work one day and said, “I moved out this morning,” and that was a wake up call for me. Um, not like everything was perfect in the marriage, in any case, we were in therapy, but, um. In any case, when he said “I moved out this morning” um, a friend of mine was in my office and she said, “come have dinner with me and the kids tonight and we’ll talk.” And I did and there was this NOW brochure on her coffee table and I picked it up and I read it and I filled it out, and mailed it in the next day. That’s how I became a member of NOW Have I left out anything?
AG: You’re gonna get back into these—
Yea, I’ll get back to—I have so many questions for you guys. Um, so, we’ll definitely get into all that, I just—thank you so much both of you. Um, I definitely got like a sense of, like your family structures and like, where you guys came from and your childhood, so, thank you. And then my next question that I think both of you kind of addressed this, um, a little bit, but just to go into it a little more. Um, what kind of brought you into the realm of like, um, politics and organizing and that type of stuff?
SD: Well, being a member of NOW is what did that for me. And like I said, when I saw that brochure and I read it that night, I realized, “OK, this is the way to go.” And I’ve been a feminist ever since. I probably was already a feminist and just didn’t know it.
0:15:37.1
Yea. Um, Alan, what about you?
AG: Um…well I’m, I’ve kind of been dragged into activism. I’m, I’m more of behin—behind the scenes person. Um, I still think of my role as a support person. Um, and I mean, I manage the chapter website for example. And I’m the newsletter editor, but uh, and I think women should really be taking the lead. This is a realm that they can lead in. So my role, even as a, my role as a male, even in this organization is to be a follower. But—in my view. Um, so uh, but I’ve been to my share of, of um, of rallies and, and marches, and uh—I don’t, I don’t really like making phone calls.
Me either (chuckles). So was it the—so when you were at Princeton and you got involved in that, um, with the women’s rights movement, was that what kind of propelled you into it? Or was it when you um, got involved in the caucus later on that was like the big um, break for you?
AG: Well, I wouldn’t describe either one. I mean I—I, I, I grew up being um, open to feminism. Um, believing women can do what men do and um, not being particularly ac—politically active. That’s not my thing. Um, but um, so I was, had no problem um, knowing people who are members of NOW and raised my awareness of that organization. This was—NOW was formed in 1956—’66, and I’m talking 1968. NOW was a very young organization. But Princeton was a very active chapter and um, and some of the people I folk danced with were NOW members and, so I, I was uh, I was sympathetic and I was aware of it, um, and the same thing when I was working, I was sympathetic and aware of it. I also had a first marriage and I, I suggested to my first wife, you know, asked her—I asked her, “Are you gonna change your name when we get married?” And she hadn’t even thought of that, and—of not changing—she ended up not changing her name. So um—
SD: Me neither.
0:18:32.3
AG: (chuckles). And that was um, uh, you know, before I knew Skip, and that was just out of the blue as far as she was concerned. So, that’s just kind of the way I was, is, I didn’t—can’t say I got converted to it, except in childhood. Um, and then when I met Skip it made a lot of sense for me to join NOW because she was very active in NOW But I was active in—or a member at least in you know, women’s group at work and, and have done other feminist things along the way. So this was um, it was, it was well in in my wheelhouse to be um, to be supportive of, of NOW
Um—
SD: I’ve been interested in him and have not been.
(AG chuckles)
Um, I think um, my next question is that—OK, so you guys both, I think, from—based on what I’m hearing and correct me if I’m wrong, but you guys, um, like your introduction into the women’s rights movement was really through NOW? And everything that they were doing, even though it was like, kind of a new organization. Um, so other, or like, as much as you were involved in NOW are there any other organizations outside of NOW um, that you got involved with in terms of like, in the realm of the women’s rights movement?
SD: As we look at each other (laughs).
AG: Well I have an answer for this. I mean, um, I’m, I’m a member of the ACLU. I’m a member of Planned Parenthood. I’m a member of NARAL. I’m a member of, I think, we donate to like 50 different organizations literally. Um, and you can’t be active in all of them. I can’t be active in all of them. So um, and there’s usually a spectrum of organizations. There’s the, there’s the um, in the women’s movement, um, there are the um, they, they’re, there are the, the—let’s say AAUW and League of Women Voters, they’re the sit around and talk about it and organize um, but very low key. Then there’s NOW and then on the kind of more of the other end is NOW is more active in the streets, um, chanting and marching and rallying and so, this—we’re NOW is for me in the spectrum of organizations I can be in, it, it fits.
0:21:20.4
AG: So I’m—that’s pretty much the only organization I’d, I’d say I’m active in, but it’s not the only organization I’m a member of. The converse of that, or the inverse of that is we look at our membership and we have, we have a mailing list of like, in our chapter of over four hundred people. And they’re not, not all of them are even members but even of the ones who are members we only get about a dozen or less—or fewer that come to meetings. Or show up on a Zoom meeting. Um…
Is this the New Jersey wide chapter, is this like a specific…?
AG: This is, this is um, Middlesex Somerset NOW Just two counties. Um, Skip and I actually live on the border be—we’re in Somerset County but we’re, we were long time members of Middlesex County NOW and when Somerset needed a chapter we kinda took on board the, the people who um, who were looking for a chapter. Um…I got distracted, um…
Sorry (chuckles).
AG: Oh no. So you know, if we have four hundred people who get our messages but we only have a dozen who occasionally—not all of them, at any given time we’ll have like eight. Seven, eight, nine, ten. A good meeting it’ll be twelve. Um, because not everybody comes to every meeting, but um…I, I don’t get too discouraged in that because I’m a member of so many organizations whose meetings I do not go to (chuckles) so, you know it’s just, we’re just on the receiving end of that for, for NOW For the NOW organization.
SD: Also, that um, our mail chapter is bigger and more active than most of the NOW chapters I know anything about.
AG: Yea, I don’t know, I mean NOW is—there is a NOW New Jersey, which is a state organization you’ve, you may have been in touch with Anjali um, May Maytro—Mayrota—Mayrotra. She, she’s the president of NOW New Jersey. Within NOW there are um, about eight to ten chapters. We are one—we are active in one of those chapters. Um, and um, they actually were having a state board meeting today, via Zoom. So there’s the state organization, there’s the chapters and then there are NOW members who are not members of chapters. And then there are, there are many, many, many sympathizers who aren’t even a member of NOW at all. So, if that helps.
0:24:12.5
Yea. Yea, totally. Um, and then um, for Skip, um, did you um, have you been involved with any other organizations like taking, taking an active role in any organizations besides NOW Has like your sole focus basically been NOW?
SD: Um, I guess the um…the name is escaping me at the moment. It used to meet at the Women’s Health and Counseling Center.
AG: Oh um, yea. Women’s Health and Counseling Center (chuckling).
SD: Yea.
AG: Um, yea we were—Skip initially was, was the—no let me back up. Back in the ‘60s and 70s there were, you know, self-help organizations. There were people kind of self-organized, there were—down the—on the one extreme were commeet—communes and um, and on the—and then there were other more formal organizations. There was a kinda, a volunteer health organization that, that, that—it’s sort of a charity health organization and it’s name eventually became Women’s Health and Counseling Center. And uh, Skip as on the board of it for quite a while and then I was on their board for a while and um, I did some maintenance work for them. Unpaid, volunteer maintenance work, changed the fluorescent lights in the ceiling and things like that. Um, but they have now been joined—subsumed by another organization called…um…it’s a really weird name. It’s somebody’s last name—Zzz—like, begins with a Z. Anyhow it’s a health center. They don’t turn anybody away, they do accept insurance if you have it, but they, they provide healthcare to—it started out just women and children and now I think they do uh, they do men as well. It started out as, as um, gynecological care and now I think they do general health. But it’s basically, um, if you’re on Medicaid and you don’t have health insurance, or if you’re not on Medicaid and you need health—healthcare and don’t have insurance, you could go to them. And, so we, we were active with that, but I haven’t, I haven’t done any maintenance there for at least ten years and, um, I was on the board for about six years. Around the turn of the century, if you’d say that, and Skip was active in the 90s. So…but basically we’ve been focused on NOW
0:27:03.4
Um, well when you guys um, and I can start with Alan and then we can move to Skip. Um, when, when you started getting more involved with NOW and like, the women’s rights movement. Um, were your family and friends supportive of your involvement or were they a little more like wary? Like, we don’t know if you should be doing this? That type of stuff.
AG: I would say yes. I mean Skip is the enter of my family
(SD gives a loving laugh)
AG: I have two children by my first marriage and I used to take them to events. Um, you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a T-shirt that say something like, “I survived Catholic school.” Um, I always felt my kid—I was proud that my kids didn’t feel, “I survived feminism.” (chuckles) Uh, I didn’t force them to come to these things so that they, they enjoyed the ones they went to. And um, my mother of course, was a member of N.O.W for a while actually. Um, and uh…so I’d say my father was my, my family was pretty supportive um, my—I have a—well, I have two sisters and a brother. My brother is Mormon and he’s not particularly supportive, cause they have their own thing, but um, uh, my two sisters are supportive. One was a NOW member for a while. In fact, of our chapter one lives—one lives here in New Jersey. Um, I’m not, I don’t, I don’t know whether she still is a member or not. And uh, so anyhow we’re, we’re—they’re not all loud and, they’re, they’re not all loud and marching but they’re supportive.
That’s great. What about you Skip?
SD: My family was I would say not supportive and I would say maybe it was partly because I hid a lot of stuff from them knowing that I would get negative strokes for it. And so...so I did not have family support for my feminism at all.
0:29:18.4
AG: In, in later years you have a niece, Amy. A niece, next niece, because she’s not the niece from the divorce and um, and Amy got back in touch with Skip and Amy is a feminist. She was a member of the Soroptirist—Soroptist? Soropsorist? Whatev—
SD: Soroptimist.
AG: Soroptimists!
SD: Yea.
AG: Which is a feminist organization.
(Transcriber’s Note: Interviewer asks a question, but the audio is unintelligible)
SD: I—I would say I probably had something to do with her becoming a feminist. Um, she and I were, were very close and um, and even after my then husband and I were divorced, she and I remained close and I think I probably had a lot to do with her feminist ideology and participation. I don’t know if she’s actually a NOW member or not but she definitely is a feminist.
That’s awesome. Um, and does she live in like the East Coast or is she still down in uh, where you grew up, or where you lived?
SD: Can you repeat that?
AG: Where does Amy live?
SD: Oh (laughs)
(AG chuckles)
SD: Pennsylvania.
Ok.
AG: South of Philadelphia.
Oh so she’s pretty (inaudible). Awesome. Um, so um just to focus a little bit more on kind of like the, the major areas of the women—uh, of the women’s rights movement. Um, what was like the big issue when you guys first joined NOW? And then I can ask a follow up question to that? After.
AG: What was your big issue, why did you join?
SD: Um, I was getting divorced.
AG: Well, the ERA was the big issue.
SD: What?
AG: The ERA was what’s Skip was marching in the streets in the 1970s about.
SD: Oh yea, for sure! (chuckles)
(AG chuckles)
SD: Yea. Yea, I was very out there and enthusiastic in my trouble making. Good trouble, of course. Um, but yea.
So um. So like when you first joined NOW like their—the big ticket issue was like the ERA and that was like their main focus?Yea.
SD: Yea.
Um, what about for you Alan? Was it--? I mean, I guess this was probably the same time, so…
AG: No it wasn’t, I didn’t join NOW until I think, 1982. Skip joined in 1974.
Ok.
AG: I didn’t meet Skip until late 1980—early 1981 is our—our first date was, was in January of 1981.
SD: I can’t claim credit, for his joining NOW (chuckles).
(laughs)
AG: I sprung it on her, I said, “I’m a member now.” (laughs).
(SD laughs)
0:32:39.3
AG: Um, but my, my—I’d say my biggest issue is um, is uh, repr—what they—we—what now calls reproductive freedom abortion rights. It might be a good time—I don’t know how much you know about NOW, but it might be a good time to say a lot of organizations are, are single-issue organizations. Uh, Planned Parenthood is, is uh, reproductive health. Um, and there are, you know, the NCAA I—I mean, not, I mean NAACP is, is racial equality. Um, NOW has six major issues and, and they, so then they span a spectrum of, of, of society from racial equality, equal rights for women, uh, lesbian and gay rights, uh, reproductive rights, um…I, I can never name them all (chuckles). But there, there’s six major issues um, and, and so—
SD: Equal pay.
AG: What?
SD: Equal pay.
AG: Equal pay for equal work. Um, so, so now—and one of the advantages for, of NOW is—and which is the really the premise of your question is that you can, NOW members can be, can have a number of different focuses but we all support each other’s issues.
Um, and to be those fixed like areas, is that like a, a new type of thing? Or had that existed when you guys first joined?
AG: Is—Are the five or six major issues something new or was it that way from the beginning?
SD: Oh, from the beginning. Yea.
Yea, um, cause the—I mean especially those issues I, I think I’ve like seen them on the website or something before. Um, they’re so like, at least to me they’re like very modern and um, all encompassing of like all the different issues that are happening right now. Um, in the past like couple ten, twenty years. Um, so it’s really amazing to know um, that those issues like exist from the very beginning of NOW. It just like, shows, um how much it, I guess, like goes through the generations and it, that it like still, um, such a big force today in the world, for sure.
AG: Yea, it can be frustrating that we—seems like we’re working on the same issues for no—um, next year will be NOW’s 55th anniversary and we’re still working on the same issues, but we did, we have the, the frontier has moved. When NOW started um, the, there were, there were the, there were classified ads in the newspaper that—they were jobs that, you know um, people wanted men and workers wanted men and workers wanted women and women couldn’t apply for the men’s jobs. Things like that. So, that’s a thing of the past most, mostly. It’s now more subtle. Um, so the frontier moves, but it seems like we never win. You never, it’s never gone, it’s always, ev—all these issues just keep coming back and coming back. So it’s, it’s hard not to get burned out.
0:36:12.7
Yea.
SD: But it’s important not to get burned out because as long as these issues exist, we have to keep fighting for them.
AG: One, one other general thing I like to point out to people about NOW, is that NOW is a very flat organization. Um, the—if you, if you member, if you’re a member of the ACLU and there—Anthony Romero is the, is the president of NOW—I mean, the president of ACLU, um, and uh, Cecile Richards used to be the president of Planned Parenthood. Um, but you get, you get mail and email from these people but you never see them. In NOW um, we go to na—we’ve gone to most of the national conferences over the last 40 years, 35 to 40 years, Skip more than I and, and we know the national officers. I can walk up to Toni Van Pelt and say, “Hi Toni,” and she’ll know who I am. It’s not just that I know who she is. Um. And, and so, that—it’s a, it’s a much cozier organization than some of the other national organizations.
Um, oh Skip, sorry, did you want to say something?
SD: I was just gonna say that, that they’re more available—the officers and the high muckity-mucks are more available to the membership. And I think that’s really important.
Yea. For sure. Um, so since you guys like know—I mean, um all of those people who are kind of like in the national higher up positions, um, I just wanted you to explain a little bit more about how um, you both, um, came to occupy like I guess your, the, your current position as um, the heads of the Middlesex-Somerset. Or I think um, just any of like the higher, the higher positions that you occu—occupied in NOW. Um, sorry that was a really confusing question. Basically, uh, if you guys could just tell me about your path towards your current leadership positions in NOW.
SD: (laughs) Go ahead.
AG: Ok, well um. Well, as, as I said, I think of my place in NOW as being supportive because women really need to get the practice if nothing else. That said, I mean I also said that not all that many people these days show up to the meetings, so, um, we basically, each of us has been in a number of positions. Um, I have, I have been uh, the treasurer for multiple term—well, the terms are about a year, the terms are a year but technically somebody will be in, in a particular position for several years. So I have had several stints as um, as chapter treasurer. Um, I’ve had a stint as chapter secretary. There was one point um, I think when, when Bush was president and then when Obama was elected, but we just didn’t have very many people because things were not going all that bad, so we, you know, people show up when there’s, when there’s problems. So, I was actually president for 3 years. Chapter president.
0:40:01.5
AG: Um, I was—might’ve been vice president at some point too. Um, currently I’m, well I’ve been the newsletter editor since 2009. Maybe 2010. Um, that’s my only current official position. Um—
(Transcriber’s note: Skip says something quietly to Alan that the audio doesn’t capture clearly, then Alan says:)
AG: Well I didn’t mean—I’m just saying it’s, you know, I—as a supporter, not a, not a leader, I’m not, I’m, I’m me—I’m the newsletter editor, I’m not the president. Um, we managed—well, Skip, you want—why don’t you describe your off—your office holding. Or—
SD: Go ahead.
AG: Ok, um. Way back when Skip joined in 1974 she joined the Somerset County chapter. And, and she would, would within a year or two she was president of that chapter. And she was president for a couple of years but then one of the problems with NOW is that it’s very political and tends to implode often. And have inter—infighting, um. And just like, you see in the Democratic party now and um, so um, Skip left the Somerset chapter and joined the Middlesex Chapter in the late 70s. When I joined in ’82, I joined the Middlesex Chapter because that’s where Skip was. Um, so we’ve been in Middlesex for that, for quite a while. Skip became Middlesex County president, I think the early 90s and she was three or four years as president then. And then we had a few other people as president and then I was president and then Skip was president again after she retired around 2009 until about twenty seven—2010 until 2017 or so. Seven or eight years. And now we have a great person um, um, Peggy Farrelly, was an organizational psychologist. A great person to be a chapter president. And so she’s the leader.
0:42:28.7
AG: Um, and Skip has been vice—Skip was vice president when I was president. I’d been vice president when she was president. Um, I was newsletter editor while she was president, now also while Peggy is president. Uh, we just all pitch in and help what needs to be done. So, that’s basically, I’m not sure quite what the question was, but basically that, that’s the, that’s how we’ve been officers in the chapter. But at the moment, we’re not in, we’re not leading the charge, we’re s—both being supportive.
Um, what was I gonna say? Um, I was gonna say something but I, I don’t remember (laughs) what I was gonna say. Um, but I guess my next question would be uhm, what is—oh! Oh, I remember what I was gonna say! Um, you mentioned that you guys have been to a bunch of NOW conventions, could you guys tell me a little bit more about those? Um, and maybe like the difference between the convention back when you started versus now if you’ve been to any recently.
SD: Well, um. A NOW national convention is like nothing I’ve ever experienced before. (chuckles) It’s really wonderful, the feminist energy is just flowing and it’s just great to be at such a convention, it really re-energizes people I think. Um, what was the rest of your question?
AG: How does that compare to now?
SD: Oh, to NOW?
AG: To present day.
SD: Yea, I think it um, I think it’s pretty similar. Don’t you think so?
AG: I’ve got the sun in my eyes, but I can’t, it’s coming through that way up window and it—so I’m, I can’t block it yet (chuckles), it’ll move. Um, I think the early NOW confere—NOW is finding its legs, arm. Finding its place in the world. Uh, the, the early NOW conferences as I’ve heard described and Skip went to a few of them, were free-for-alls. Um, they, they um, there were big battles over lesbian rights because those were in the days when lesbians were in the closet.
0:45:01.5
AG: There was a big battle over smoking in the convention—conference. There were um, so, and when I started my first conference, I think was ’82. Um, it was the one where shortly after that—Mondale was there at the conference and Geraldine Ferraro was there at the conference [Transcriber’s note: Walter Mondale and Geraldine Ferraro were the 1984 President and Vice President nominees for the Democratic Party], but Mondale had not chosen Geraldine Ferraro to be Vice President, and now was enthusiastically trying to get them to do that. To choose some woman, there were several there. Tricia um, uh, the women from Colorado. Um, anyhow. Um, that was my first conference in ’82. And, um, no it must’ve been ’84, because uh, yea it must’ve been ’84. The um—could’ve been ’83. Anyhow, back in the early 80s.
(SD laughs.)
AG: (laughs) Um, and things are still relatively wild. I think in more recent years—oh and people were, well the way the conference is organized is there are, what are called plenary sessions where uh, where we have major speakers. And then there are workshops where uh, you go and learn about things. I learned about trans rights in the, in a workshop. Uh, intersex in a workshop. Um, I’ve know—by now after 30 some odd conferences, I, I pretty much know all of the issues and I try to go the ones I’ve, the workshops that I, that I’m, that are unfamiliar to me. But, um, and then on Sunday, that’s Friday and Saturday are these plenaries and workshops, on Sunday they have resolutions where the business of NOW is actually conducted. NOW likes to say that we’re a grassroots organization and the conference is the governing body of NOW. And the officers are elected at the conferences, and the, and the resolutions of what NOW stands for past at the confere—at, on, on Sundays the bylaws that are actually gonna be changed are changed on Sunday. And I think a lot of that has gotten a lot calmer. Uh, it used to be that they would never finish—go—there would be twenty five resolutions to consider on Sunday and they would get through about half of them. Now, um, now they’re basically getting through all of the uh, resolutions. I think we pretty much all know where we’re coming from, there aren’t all that many new radical ideas, or maybe now—I’m sorry for keeping you up—(laughs)
(SD laughs)
AG: Or maybe NOW is uh, is just getting, um, more complacent and we need a more radical organization than NOW.
0:48:02.5
AG: Um, in fact, there’s kind of a, an internal fight right now going on in NOW about are we doing nough—enough about Black Lives Matter? And black women in particular. So, you know, NOW is, NOW is kind of comfortable where they are, I think, and, and we’re not quite on the leading edge of what’s going on out in the world. So, we’re ne—we need to catch up with that and I think we will. But…so the conferences have changed, they’ve gotten a little more sedate, a little more, we know what we’re doing, and we’re all on the same page and there aren’t—you know we don’t have to fight about lesbian rights and we don’t have to fight about smoking and we don’t have to…you know a lot of things we don’t have to fight about because we all agree.
SD: (inaudible) rules of order helped a lot with that stuff.
AG: Yea.
Um, so would you say that like, the um, NOW in 2020 it’s like more organized? Like, the organization itself is more organized as a whole than it was back in like the 80s and the 90s?
AG: Is NOW itself more organized that it was in the early years?
SD: Yea, I think it probably is. Yea. Uh…trying to think how I—can I give you an example of that. Um, nothing springs to mind. What do you think?
AG: I think it’s more organized, but I think that’s, I mean that’s kind of what I was just describing about NOW has kind of, knows who it is.
SD: It has matured as an organization.
AG: And that’s actually, there’s a downside to that. Which is that NOW is not as attractive as we’d like to be to younger people. Um, there are a group of younger, there are—at every conference, there’s a lot of older women and a few men, and a lot of younger women, but we hear stories about the younger women get put down and turned off by the older women. You know, “Oh we tried that 30 years ago and it didn’t work.” That kind of thing, and that’s not good.
0:50:24.5
AG: It’s—I’d—Skip, as long as I’ve known her has been supportive about bringing younger women into the organization, so I have that, I have that value as well.
SD: The organization will die if we don’t keep bringing in new, young uh, enthusiastic members. So, yea.
Um, so my next question is, and I think there, based on what I’m hearing there’s kind of like two maybe different things um, that, that I can of. Um, but what would you say the biggest difference between NOW in 2020 compared to when you first joined? So I’m hearing like organization, maybe like the demographics in terms of like the age, um, but is there like a specific difference that stands out to you between like the early years and now, in 2020?
SD: No, I, I think the demographics are pretty much the same. What do you think? Or similar.
AG: Well the demographics have aged.
(SD laughs)
AG: I mean, who’s the voice, who’s the voice of feminism now? Gloria Steinem. Who’s the voice of feminism in 1965? Gloria Steinem. Um, we need, we need a, we need a 30 year old Gloria Steinem and we do—I don’t see that happening. Well, we have um, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Uh, we need, we need more people like that and we need them in NOW. Not, not—well we need them in Congress too, but I mean, we need them rabble rousing, we need them supporting the um, there, there needs to be support in the streets for what the reformers in Congress want to do.
Um, so would you say there’s less of, I’m trying to think how to phrase this. Like, compared when to NOW first got started there’s less of an energy? I don’t know if that’s the right word to use. Um, but yea. That’s…
(pause)
AG: Um, well I think younger people have more energy in general.
0:52:54.3
AG: Um, I think there’s less energy now just because we have a more age—more—we have aged, and uh, so we sit around we talk about things rather than running out into the streets at every opportunity. Um, the…
SD: We still have—excuse me—we still have reactivism and I think that’s really important. Um, I mean there’s something pretty much annually that is um, energizing for the base. Um, plus we support other organizations in thing they’re doing. Um, but now in thinking about the um…drawing a blank…um…
AG: I don’t know what you’re (laughs)
(SD laughs)
AG: I mean, I’m thinking about the Women’s March in January. When, right after um, um, Trump was inaugurated, the next day, and then they’ve had the next couple, the next two years after that.
SD: Yea.
AG: Um…
Did you guys go to that?
AG: We went to the one at righ—right—the you—we went to the first one.
Yea, me too.
AG: Um, we were in Trenton and um, some of the people in the New York; some of the people were in Washington. We had chapter member—we had chapter members actually. Somebody was in um, uh, Asbury Park and Washington and Trenton for us and, and some others and, New York City for others. But I think that, I mean that brought a lot of energetic members into the, into the chapter and we, I think, I think at who’s, who’s attending uh, the meeting these days and they’re all, all except us basically came, came in from that women’s march and the, and the energy that uh, Trump’s election generated.
0:55:15.5
SD: I hate to say that I thank Trump for anything but…he certainly did cause a lot of folks to sit up and take notice and say, “Hmm, need to do something about this.”
Yea.
AG: --ooved the need
SD: Yea.
AG: I mean, there, there’s, there’s churn it’s not like, you know all the chapter members we had just upped and left, but um, I can think of at least a couple of people who moved away. Somebody who was 85 years old died. Um, somebody burned out, um. I’m thinking of Ronnie. So we—it’s not like there was a, an automatic changeover, it’s just that over a period of three years there’s been some churn and, and Skip and I are the, are the only ones left from, from the before Trump era and I think that’s good, that’s we’re renewing the, the chapter blood. And the, and then, and NOWs blood.
SD: Yea. I’d really thought it when you mentioned that but yea.
AG: Well, we were down to like four to six people showing up at a meeting, but you know, Dorothy moved away, Rich moved away, John died. Um, Ronnie burned out. Who else was there? Mary Pansatelli moved away. Uh. We can get some of these people back with Zoom, heh. But um, yea, with the people who attend the meetings now, um, are, are people we’re glad to have, but they’re not the same people we had five years ago.
SD: Our chapter is, I would say, very active compared to a lot of chapters. We, we like getting stuff done.
0:57:23.5
That’s amazing. Um, and it, that’s amazing that you guys are such a integral part of that. Um, so my next question is I think, um, this is a, like a very reflective question. Um, but if you could go back in time would you have done anything differently during your involved with either NOW or just like the larger women’s rights movement again?
SD: Go ahead.
AG: I don’t think there’s easy answers for these, for the problems that NOW is combatting.
Mmhm.
AG: I’m not, I’m not wise enough to say, “Oh, if we had just done this in 1992 things would’ve been different, better” whatever. Um, I wouldn’t change anything.
SD: Yea, I would, I would agree with that. I, there’s nothing that I would do differently or nothing that I would ask my chapter to do differently. Um, we’re all feminists, we all work in this together and um, I don’t think there’s anything that’s being let to slide or go down to the tube because we aren’t doing enough.
AG: I would also add that one a—I mean, yes we’re an act—we’re an activist organization, but one of the benefits is when we get together for meetings is that we’re supportive of each other. We know there’s other people around who believe the same kind of things that you do and you’re willing, and are willing to work for the same kind of things.
SD: Yea.
AG: So it’s, so NOW is, I mean people don’t really talk about it but the organization itself provides support to its members in a very informal way.
0:59:21.1
SD: Yea, it, it’s nice to know that you’re in a room full of people whose values and politics are very similar to your own. And you do get energy from that.
AG: I had one other thought. Um, I ‘m not sure whether you have a question about special activities but Skip had a very special activity that, in 1991 um—
Yea, sure.
AG: One—
SD: Can’t wait to hear about this (chuckles).
AG: Um, when you went undercover.
SD: Oh, that!
AG: Yea!
That sounds exciting! I wanna hear about that.
SD: Um, well we knew that the so-called Right-To-Lifers were going to be conducting a series of clinic blockades, clinic attacks. Um, in upstate New York.
What year was this? Do you know around what year it was?
AG: I actually looked it up, it was January of 1991.
Got it.
AG: Dobbs Ferry. Which is not really upstate—
SD: Oh! Dobbs Ferry, yea.
AG: Well, not really upstate, but just north of New York City.
SD: Yea. And um, so I, I went undercover to one of their conventions and I ended every evening with a headache (chuckles) but—
AG: Convention isn’t quite the right word.
SD: Conference.
AG: They were, they were gonna spend like four, three or four days sie—laying siege to this abortion clinic. And Skip joined them as a member, as a member of their organization, as their group.
1:01:23.9
SD: Yea (chuckles). And they didn’t know any different. Um, I just showed up and then said I was with them and you know, my values were the same as their values and…I, I, I took acting in college (chuckles), so that was useful (laughs). Um, and I, you know they never ever knew that they had me in their midst and what they couldn’t understand was how it was that every morning they arrived at the clinic to blockade it, there were already our people were there. How were they finding out? And um, ultimately they said, and said from the podium, “we have a mole in our midst.” That sent shivers up and down my spine. That was not something I wanted to be found out about. Um, but I, I really felt like I made a major contribution at that point because I was willing to sit there through all their crap and bring the information at—after every meeting I would call up my contact and say, “Ok, here’s the plan for tomorrow. Here’s where they’re gonna be.” And um, and of course I would go too, pretending to be one who was blockading. Um, but that, that was…
1:03:20.5
SD: Th—there was one, one night in particular I remember we were on a bus and it was way early in the morning, so it was still dark out and I was thinking to myself, “You know, if they knew who I was, they could just sort of drop me off in the woods somewhere here.” (chuckles). Um, but that was the only moment I actually felt real fear, but um, but the rest of the time it was, it was exciting, it was something I enjoyed doing. Something I felt like I could make a contribution. Um, and there weren’t all that many people willing to do it, so, so (laughs), um so I did feel like I made a contribution there.
Yea.
AG: What’s happening in Richmond, Virginia was within the Baptist church, and so she knew all the hymns and all the prayers and she, but she could, she could follow along (laughs).
(SD laughs)
AG: And, and, and play the part.
SD: Yea, it was, that was, that part was easy.
Mmhm.
AG: The other thing was that for three or four years after that, um, they had a, the organization is called Right To Life. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but, um, it’s a quite a misnomer. Anyhow, right—there was a Right to Life convention in New Jersey and it was like four miles from our house here in Somerset and Skip went to that convention, I would drop her off in the morning and pick her up in the evening and she would spend the whole day with her buddies who remembered her from Dobbs Ferry (chuckles).
(Gasps. Laughs)
AG: And one, one year she stole a copy of their playbook.
Oh my gosh!
SD: I’ve got sticky fingers!
1:05:27.5
(Laughs)
AG: Yea, and uh, and trans—and sent a copy—I’m not sure how it got there. But basically send a copy to um, to NOWs uh, Washington D.C. headquarters. So that we knew what their strategy was.
Amazing. What year was that? Do you know? Was that recently?
AG: It was, had to have been mid 90s.
Ok.
AG: I mean it was, if the, if that was ’91, ’93, ’94, ’95 something like that.
SD: Yea.
That’s incredible. That’s, that’s amazing. And that you were able to like make so much of that, so much of a difference that’s, that’s incredible. I’m, I’m in awe right now! Um—
SD: Sitting here thinking about it, I’m in awe too! I’m like, “what was I crazy?” (laughs).
No, you were—
AG: --Younger, our younger selves had more energy (chuckles).
You guys have plenty of energy. So I can only imagine what your younger selves were like. Um, so Skip would you say that’s one of your proudest moments, um, in being a part of NOW?
SD: Um, going undercover at the Right to Life Convention and surviving and being able to provide this information to our troops.
Mmhm.
SD: Everyday, and, and they, they couldn’t figure out how we were getting that information. Um—
AG: But the question is, were you proud of it?
SD: Oh yea, sure! You bet!
Mmhm.
SD: I mean I realized I was really making a difference. I was doing something that nobody else was willing to do and nobody was really as well equipped as I was because being Southern Baptist, I can quote the Bible with the best of ‘em.
1:07:33.2
SD: So, nobody ever suspected anything. Which was important because my safety was in question.
AG: She had a fake ID with ‘em. It was, her, her birth name, her original maiden name, if you will.
Oh.
AG: You can get a County ID and so she took her birth certificate and got a County ID in that name. And it’s a, it was a different, Skip is a, is a nickname at the time it w—now it’s her legal name, but at the time it was a, it was a nickname. So, she—they had her, her legal first name and they had her legal birth name and they gave her a County ID, and that’s all she took with her. That and a few dollars.
Wow.
SD: Is that, yea—
AG: And a, and a phone number.
SD: Yea, the phone number for my contact whom I was giving all this information.
Wow, that’s incredible. Um, Alan is there a specific moment or achievement that you had with NOW that is like your proudest, um, thing that you can remember?
AG: Um, she asked me the same question, what was I proud of?
SD: Ok.
AG: Um, I can’t—I mean it’s, it doesn’t, it doesn’t stack up next to Skip’s—
SD: Oh!
(Laughs)
AG: (laughs) The thing I can remember that, that was a unique experience at least is that we went to…I think it was a 1993 March on Washington for gay and lesbian rights and NOW was one of the co-organizers and we volunteered and got put in the um, in the, in the vanguard of the parade.
1:09:35.6
AG: We, we were, we linked arms and we walked in front of the front of the parade to kinda keep the, the, the spectators out of the way and, every now and then they told us to, to kneel down and the photographers then could take a picture unobstructed by us. But, but we um, you know, we were like within touching distance of Martina Navratilova (Transcriber’s Note: Martina Navratilova is a former No. 1 World ranked tennis player, who came out as lesbian in the 80s and spoke at the March on Washington that year], um, Jesse Jackson was there, all the NOW leaders were there, but we knew them. And um, the reason I know the year is because we have uh, we have t-shirts that says ‘Marshal’ on it and the date and uh, and I wear that every now and then, so I remember the date.
Amazing.
SD: That was a, that was definitely a proud thing I had forgotten about.
AG: Well, a fun memory anyhow (chuckles).
SD: Yea. Yea.
And that was in, that was in DC?
AG: Yes, Washington D—yea, Pennsylvania Avenue.
Oh wow. That’s amazing. Um, ok my next question um, is obvious in terms of you guys coming together um, but on like maybe a larger scale. Um, how has involvement with NOW impacted your life? I know that’s a big one.
SD: Oh, wow! How has NOW impacted the rest of my life.
1:11:10.9
SD: Well, it’s, it has given a…I don’t know that platform is the right word, but it’s given me the basis to live my life. To live out my values. To be an activist. To do things that made a difference and I know for sure when we were in Dobbs Ferry I made a difference because I was giving the information about where they, the Anti’s were gonna show up the next morning. I was giving that information—I almost got caught one night too. I would—I would go down into the basement of the, of the building and not turn on the light, I would stand there, use the phone and call my contact and one night somebody came downstairs and I was on the phone and suddenly I was talking to my mother so, “Mom, I’ll see you on Sunday” (SD chuckles)
(AG chuckles)
(Chuckles)
SD: But yea I had to be very, very careful of what I said and who I said it to. Who I trusted, who I didn’t. Um, but yea that they were, there were definitely some anxious moments in my life during that period of time.
AG: It’s more structured my life, I can always—if you said, “What am I doing of the social good?” I can always point to NOW, as being an active member in NOW and, uh, participating in what NOW does. Um, it, I mean it structures our life, we’re, we have meetings once a, once a month at least. Um.
SD: Here. Here at our house.
AG: It’s actually, yea, here at our house. Well it was be—n—be, before the pandemic we were, we were actually serving dinner here once a month to the meeting. Um, and uh, uh, we, the NOW conferences are around the country so it’s one trip we would take together every year, around the country. Um, so—and this year was supposed to be in Washington D.C. and we got cancelled be—but um.
1:13:56.1
AG: So anyhow, that, that’s really how it’s impacted my life, it’s given me some structure and some value.
Amazing, uh—
SD: I think you’re right. I was—that I was smart enough to pick out a feminist guy.
(AG chuckles)
Yes, for sure! No, for sure. I’m definitely on the lookout for that, so (chuckles).
SD: Yea.
Um—
AG: Well, there’s no hurry for you so.
I’ve plenty of time, but always good to keep in mind, you know. Um, my next question is um a little bit back to like when you were getting um, when you guys were like president and vice president of your chapter, but this is also um, pre-like technology, so pre-email, cell phones, all that technical stuff, um, how did you organize and how did you get the word out if you um, without like e-mail chains and like mass texting, all that type of stuff? Um, what was like the biggest way that you guys kept your members engaged or like even just got the word out to other people about, about NOW?
SD: You did a lot of that.
AG: Well you, are you deferring to me here?
SD: Yes.
(Laughs)
AG: For emergencies we have something, I don’t know if you know that, what a telephone tree is?
Mm, mm.
AG: Um, it’s like um, like an NCAA bracket. You have one person calls two—
Ohh, got it.
AG: Each of them calls two more and whatever and so the people you wanna talk to would be a um, a um, on a telephone tree, we used to do what we called phone banking. Um, where we’d together at like um, an office of some kind that had several phones and people would call, we’d take the membership list of the phone numbers divided among the people and call all the members say asking for money or telling them about this rally we were gonna have. Um, and we had a newsletter and the newsletter was actually printed like on a newspaper. Um, I don’t know how they typeset it.
1:16:12.8
AG: Um, this is when I first joined, but it looked a news—a official newspaper be—like, um, like two sheets of paper would be like whatever eight sheets, eight pages would be folded and then folded in half and, and printed. The, the address would be printed on it and then it would um, or maybe we’d have to put mailing labels on it, I don’t remember. And they had to bundle ‘em up by zip code and take them to the post office to get the special—and you had to have a special permit to, to um, to, to use the bulk mail rate and it was a big production. We used to actually get together sometime to be—four or five people get together one evening just to put the newsletter together. And that was after it printed.
(inaudible)
AG: What?
Is it online now?
AG: Yes, it’s definitely online. Um, and uh, well uh, and then back in the 90s when Skip was president, what we used to do is, is uh, uh, we would find articles, write articles, whatever. Huh, print them out at the computer, paste them onto pieces of paper and um, and find it a copying machine or Kinkos or whatever and um, and pay our Staples, and pay to get them printed. And then for a while I was just, I was putting it together in a Word document and e-mailing it to our chapter members. And now, for the last year, a little bit more than a year, we’ve been using MailChimp. So, and now I get to where I’m, if you’d like I can put you on our list.
Oh yea, I’d be happy to!
AG: Ok and um, you can always um, unsubscribe if you want, but (chuckles)
(SD chuckles)
AG: Um, I guess—we’ve have about four hundred people on our e-mail list. On our MailChimp list.
Yea, I can send you--the e-mail that I used to contact you is not my like, main e-mail, so I will e-mail you my main e-mail. But I will see the, the newsletters. Um, and then in terms of um, like getting new members um, in like the early years did you guys just do it like where you saw someone on the street and you were like, “Hey, would you be interested in this?” Like what, what was like the big outreach method?
SD: Seems to me like, you know, a lot of it is word of mouth, people come to meetings with people who are already members and um, you know, they like what they see and they join.
1:19:13.5
AG: We used to do what they called tabling. Um, you, you occasionally see somebody tabling outside a market these days, but um, we used to date in date in New Brunswick, which is the next town over. Um, we used to, there used to be an Oktoberfest where they would close down three or four blocks of George Street and have all kinds of people there, exhibits and tables and whatever. We—and in Metuchen has a, would have a similar kind of thing. And we would, um, we would table at these events. Um, Piscataway used to have a town fair. Uh, Middlesex County used to have a County Fair. And um, and then the, and um, for the last twenty-five, thirty years I think um, in Asbury the um, the pride festival has been an event, and for a few years we tabled there. We bought a table and, and we get people to sign petitions and we’d get their e-mail address or their regular address and we’d, and then put them on our mailing list (chuckles)
(SD chuckles)
AG: Um, and we’d get, we’d get people who would sign up to be members. We don’t do much outreach these days and I’m not sure quite why. Um, I think that’s one of the areas where our energy has flagged. Uh, we don’t need as much money as we used to need because we don’t have to pay the printer to print the newsletter and we don’t have a telephone. We used to have a chapter telephone and we used to have a chapter, uh, post office box, but I kept track for like three months and we got like zero pieces of mail. And so finally I convinced the chapter, we don’t need that post office box and that was a hundred dollars a year. And the, the phone was like thirty dollars a month and, so communication modes have changed and we don’t need as much money and so we haven’t needed as many members. Um, that said, you know, when we, we, we’ll sign up anybody who wants to be a member. You can, it’s as cheap as ten or fifteen dollars and uh, and uh, the—nominally it’s thirty-five dollars but there’s a sliding fee scale. And anything more people want to donate, so.
1:21:43.8
SD: One of the things we learned to do was always, always when you’re talking to somebody, ask them if they’re a NOW member. Ask them if they want to join. So…
AG: I think Skip might have a mem—a membership form in her purse.
SD: I do, I always have a membership form with me (laughs). Are you a member of NOW?
I don’t know, that’s a very good question, and now I need to join. Now I need to for sure…Um—
SD: Well we certainly send you memberships forms.
AG: In the newsletter at the very end, and the white—
Oh it is? Ok. I will check it out on the newsletter. Um, I’m actually, so I am membership director for um, the New Jersey High School Democrats so I’m always like plugging in, making sure as many people as possible, can, can sign up for that. So I love gi—doing outreach and all that type of stuff, so I will definitely um, get myself on the newsletter and also hopefully as a member. Um, yea. That’d be amazing. Um, ok so my next question is kind of like a overall kind of another reflective question. Um, and um, ok so the question is, what do you see as the biggest impediment to progress in the women’s rights movement going forward?
(Pause)
Yea, kind of deep.
SD: Why don’t I skip that one.
(AG laughs)
SD: (laughs) Nah. What do you think?
AG: Well, we know what we want; the impediment is the people who don’t, who don’t want us to have it. The power structure, the um, the people in power don’t want to give up power.
SD: Can you be a little more clear about that, cause I don’t know what you mean.
AG: Oh ok, um. Well let’s just take the Equal Rights Amendment. We might now have all 38 states to, to, to ratify it but—
SD: Finally—
AG: But, um, the, um, re—what’s it called? The clerk of Congress or some—I’m not sure what the—clerk of the…? There’s a clerk somewhere, that’s the title, it’s not a, it’s not a low level position. Um, who is supposed to accept it and add it to the Constitution and that person hasn’t—refuses to do that. And um, so in that one aspect, that’s um, that’s um, that’s one impediment and I don’t know if that’s the biggest impediment.
1:24:33.7
AG: I mean, it’s, it’s always—as they say, “Follow the money.” Who stands to make money from discrimination? People who make, um, people who make money by exploiting low paid workers. Um, because most low paid workers are women. Many, the majority of low paid workers—more than half at least of low paid workers are women. And, and these days you can’t, you can’t support yourself. You could be a single person earning a, a um, a minimum wage job and you don’t have enough money to pay your rent and buy food. Um, back in the day, I don’t know wanna, you know, back in the, when NOW was formed um. Uh, a minimum wage worker could support him or herself. Now, two minimum wage workers have trouble supporting themselves. So, um, I mean, the people who are exploiting the minimum wage workers are, are an impediment, so they don’t want to see the minimum wage ra—ra—raised. They don’t want to see the Equal Rights Amendment because that would mean that women who are being exploited have to be paid the same amount as men. Um…that’s, that’s a start (chuckles) on what the main problems are.
Skip, do you have anything you--?
SD: I don’t know that I have anything to add to that. You, you covered it pretty well.
AG: OK.
Awesome, uh, well, I think we’re at the last question. Um, and this question um, is like the one that I want to hear the most cause it’s like uh, I’ll just tell you the question. Um, is, what advice do you have for the next generation of women? So that’s kind of me, so this like the question I’ve been wanting to hear for the most, but that’s why they probably saved it ‘til the end. Um, but yea, advice for the next generation, me…
1:26:58.5
SD: Well, we need to start believing each other and we need to cut down on conflict, and I mean the other side really has exploited the idea that women can’t get along. That women, you know, can’t work together, and that’s, that’s just a crock because—well NOW is proof positive that women can get, can get along, can work well together and we can get stuff done. Um, can you think of anything else that I…?
AG: Yea, if I were, if I were giving a graduation speech or something. I would say um, get as much as education as you can, stand up for yourself. Um…you know if you, if you, as they say, if you see something say something. Don’t, don’t be silent. Um, recruit your peers to help. Um, join an organization, you’ll be more powerful that way. Not necessarily NOW, I mean you’re in, you’re in the Democrats, so that’s…um, that’s a, that’s a start. Um, I would look at that organization—I mean, part of the problem with a lot of organizations is, is that the, the males tend to dominate. So don’t let that happen in, in the high school Dems. Um, I mean I’ve heard complaints that reason lesbians form their own organizations is because gay men tend to run their, run the, the gay and lesbian organizations. Um, that’s one advantage that NOW has is that it’s a, it’s a women run organization and so they, they don’t have deal with that. Um, I’ve, I feel privileged to be accepted around the organization. People know me, like I said Toni Van Pelt knows, knows who I am.
1:29:29.5
AG: But part of that is that I know not to you know, not to get in their way. That they’re, they’re doing the job, they’re doing it best because they know they know for themselves what, what needs to be done. But most men are not like that. Most men think they know um, how to run an organization. Any organization. I remember one—I’m trying to remember what meeting it was—we were at some meeting and Hazel Statz-Westover’s husband was there.
SD: Whose husband?
AG: Hazel Statz-Westover.
SD: Oh, yea.
AG: Her husband, Bob, they’re both, died many years ago. But this older guy listened to the meeting for a while and then told the people what they were doing wrong. And, and like he just walked in. No—I mean, we knew who he was, but he was being white male dominant behavior. And um, you know there’s a lot of um, I mean, a lot of the, the black organizations traditionally have been run by men also. Very recently in the last year we’ve been hearing about black, black women have been leading the movement. So, you know, don’t let men run over you. That would be my advice (laughs). Um, you know, take your share of the leadership and take your share of the credit.
1:30:56.7
SD: Yea, that’s certainly something that we as women need to do and need to teach each other how to do, because well, one of the main things that NOW does is to teach it’s members about leadership. And how to get things done. And how to work together. And uh, and it works.
Wow. Thank you guys so much. Um, I’m just like, um, as a final thing, do you guys have any other final stories or anything that like, you didn’t, or I didn’t ask a question about that you want to make sure that I know about? Um, anything like that
SD: I’m just thinking about my going undercover—
AG: Well, we already told that—
SD: And we did talk about that. But that was…probably my proudest time. That I survived that (chuckles).
Um—
AG: Well—
A question, how many women were in like, the group that you infiltrated? Was it like a, like a large amount of women or was it like a small, small group of women?
SD: What’s the question?
Um, in the group that you like infiltrated, was it a large group or was it like a pretty small number of women? And, and men.
SD: Um, depends on how much you call small I guess, but I would say a dozen that would show up regularly to meetings.
That’s scary, cause if it’s less people like there’s less—or there’s more chance that someone could like find out that you were the mole or something.
SD: I’m, I’m sorry that my hearing is—
I’m sorry. Um, I was gonna say a dozen people is so small because if, if someone finds out that it’s you then like they know it’s you cause it’s such a small group of people.
SD: Oh, oh, I think I totally missed on that question. You’re talking about when I would go undercover—
Yea.
SD: How big those groups were?
Yea.
AG: Dobbs Ferry.
SD: What?
AG: How many women were there in Dobbs Ferry?
SD: I would say um…a hundred or more.
Oh, ok.
SD: So they—it was, I was delude—diluted?
Yea, diluted.
1:33:38.4
SD: The—that I was, I was…As long as I paid attention to what I was doing, who I was talking to and what I was saying, um, I could protect myself pretty well. Um, they did search my room, yea.
Oh my god.
SD: The manager of the hotel where we were staying, the motel where we were staying was also a Right To Lifer.
Mmhm.
SD: And he gave a number of people access to my room and they searched my room, but I was already prepared for something like that to happen, so I had with me. I had a bible, I had borrowed a rosary from a friend of mine, um, I had literature. Um, the, the, the scene that my room presented was of a solid Right To Lifer.
Yea. Wow—
SD: Um, so I’d…I knew how to protect myself, so (chuckles).
What—
AG: Skip kept her notes, Skip kept a record and put in a diary.
Mmhm.
AG: She did it in, in character.
SD: Yea.
AG: So—
So she like, so you got the information, but you did it in a way that was like you just taking notes about the convention, that type of stuff.
AG: It was like, she would write um, I just heard a wonderful talk by so-and-so—
SD: Randall Terry.
AG: And um, and that showed that it w—it was yes, a record, Randall Terry spoke, but she put words around it that made her sound like she was part of the group.
SD: Like I, I was a supporter.
Was it hard for you to like, like when you had discussions with people was it hard for you to like, do—like say the opposite of what you really believed?
1:35:55.4
SD: Not in the least. My, my safety was at stake. So, when your safety’s at stake, um, it makes it easier for you to do what you need to do to protect yourself.
That’s true, that’s true. I, I just can’t imagine like saying stuff like pro, pro-life. It’s—I mean, and anti-choice. I feel like I would, I would just go insane. So that is amazing that you were able to stay in character for that long, cause I’d definitely, I know I could not do that.
AG: You wanna, you could send her a copy of your diary.
Oh do you have a copy of it?
SD: I, I mean, do you want a copy of it?
Yea, for sure! For sure.
AG: She tran—she wrote it a little book, or it was on pieces of paper, I don’t remember. And then some years later, I copied it over into a file and then um, I don’t know ten years ago we went over it, put it in a word document and uh, and added some more context to it.
Oh yea, I would love to see that. Um, I’m so--what’s happening after this, um, just to give you guys like a sense of what’s happening is we have um, each of the interviewees. Uh, er, no interviewers has to um write and article about their interview, so I think the articles due in like two weeks. Two, two or three weeks, something like that. Um, so I’ll like write up my reactions um, I’ll--basically like a, a summary of what you guys told me. Um, and then what our plan—so that’s through NOW New Jersey is that article and I think they’re gonna put it on their website or something like that. Um, so when they do, I will e-mail you so you can see it. Um, and then I think what our plan is, is…so we’re working in conjunction with um, this art museum and what they want to do is like take all of the interviews that everyone has done and combi—compile it into a, uh, um, like hopefully a play. Um, so, that’s kind of what we’re hoping to do. Um, like a far down the road cause it, hopefully it could be an in-person play. Um, but that’s just kinda like what, what were planning on doing. Um, I think it’s just gonna be like um, a collection of everyone’s different stories about the women’s movement. Um, in the 70s, and 80s, and 90s. Um, hopefully, that’s, that’s the plan.
AG: Sounds good.
SD: Yea. That does sound good
So I will keep you guys updated um, on all of that and it—I would love to sign up for the newsletter and see Skip’s diary if that’s possible.
AG: OK, send me your, your personal e-mail and I’ll send you that.
Awesome, OK, I can stop recording now. Um, but thank you guys so, so much. Um—
SD: You’re welcome, thank you.
AG: You’re welcome—
Yea, of course.
1:38:58.1
End of Transcript