Tony Harris

Vietnam Veteran Tony Harris experienced houselessness after a heart attack. He found support at Elijah’s Promise.

“Like, I said, we were fighting a war, I don’t know what we’re fighting for, really. All I know, I was there.”
— Tony Harris

Annotations

1. Agent Orange and Chemical Warfare - Agent Orange was an herbicide used by U.S. troops during the Vietnam War as part of a chemical warfare program known as Operation Ranch Hand to eliminate forest cover and crops for North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops. Exposure to the highly toxic dioxin in Agent Orange has been linked to various health conditions, such as multiple types of cancer, skin rashes, and psychological and neurological conditions, such as Parkinson's disease and peripheral neuropathy. Veterans who can provide scientific and medical evidence that a disease they have is related to exposure to Agent Orange are eligible to apply for disability benefits from the Department of Veteran Affairs.
2. Civilian Attitude Toward Vietnam War, Anti-War Movements - Opposition to the United States' involvement in the Vietnam War began with demonstrations in 1964 and grew into a widespread anti-war movement in later years as the country's role in the war increased. The movement started mostly on college campuses with "teach-ins" organized by Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) where members could express their opposition to the war. As the war's casualties and cost increased, Americans' disillusionment with the country's involvement became more widespread. This led to more demonstrations, such as protests on college campuses, draft protests, sit-ins, and marches, including a march on the Lincoln Memorial and the Pentagon, some of which culminated in violence, such as the Kent State massacre. By 1968, a Gallup pole revealed that 50% of the population disapproved of the way in which U.S. involvement in Vietnam was handled. The U.S. Anti-Vietnam War Movement lasted from until 1973, almost ten years after it initially began.
3. Access to Social Services, 211 Services - In 2005, New Jersey launched 211, a system designed to help connect people with community health and human service resources. In 2019, NJ 211 helped 667,096 people find resources for issues such as shelters, food insecurity, affordable housing, social services, and more. 211's Don't Go Hungry- Get Help programs helps people in need of food assistance find community soup kitchens and food pantries that can offer immediate help.
4. Veteran Services, Housing - The Department of Veteran Affiars offers many programs to assist veterans with housing, such as the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development-VA Supportive Housing (HUD-VASH), the Homeless Providers Grant and Per Diem (GPD) Program, the Enhanced-Use Lease (EUL) Program, and Supportive Services for Veteran Families (SSVF). Middlesex County created a Veterans Housing Assistance Program (VHAP) to assist veterans and their families at risk of or presently experiencing homelessness. VHAP, along with the use of the HUD-VASH voucher program, helped the county effectively end veteran homelessness as of 2016.
5. Mental Health - According to the 1983 National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study (NVVRS), the first study ever conducted by the VA about the prevalence of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) in veterans, around 15% of Vietnam War veterans had PTSD. A more recent study conducted in 2013, the National Vietnam Veterans Longitudinal Study (NVVLS), revealed that, among theater veterans (those who were deployed to Vietnam during the war), 11% of men and 7% of women still had PTSD. The study also showed that two thirds of veterans with warzone-related PTSD discussed behavioral health concerns with a provider. The VA's health benefits program for veterans includes mental health services in its list of services it covers, including both inpatient hospital services for mental health conditions and outpatient treatment for issues related to PTSD, depression, and substance use disorder.
6. Employment, Veteran Status - The Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 (VEVRAA) established veterans as a protected class in employment sectors. The law defines "protected veterans" (also referred to as "covered veterans") as disabled veterans, recently separated veterans, veterans who served on active duty in the Armed Forces during a war or campaign or expedition for which a campaign badge has been authorized, and veterans who, while serving on active duty, participated in a U.S. military operation for which an Armed Forces service medal was awarded. The law was originally passed to provide assistance to returning Vietnam veterans and prevent discrimination related to military service and veteran status during the hiring process. Under this law, a veteran can take legal action against a company if they believe they were discriminated against for their veteran status. The Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act of 1994 (USERRA) also protects veterans from employment discrimination. Under this law, employers must not deny individuals initial employment, reemployment, promotion, employment retention, or any other benefit of employment due to veteran status.
7. Homelessness, Law Enforcement, Criminalization of Homelessness - In 2014, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) sued the city of New Brunswick because of the city's anti-panhandling ordinances. These laws were deemed to violate the right to free expression under the First Amendment and, therefore, were unconstitutional. Although the city repealed the ordinances as part of the settlement, New Brunswick still continues to struggle when addressing the issue of panhandling. The city has several programs directed towards addressing homelessness, such as food pantries, community kitchens, the Unity Square Community Center, and Code Red/Code Blue initiatives for extreme weather.
8. Access to Social Services, Shelter Services - According to a Point In Time (PIT) survey conducted by Coming Home of Middlesex County, 666 individuals reported being homeless. Of those, 101 were unsheltered. Catholic Charities, Diocese of Metuchen, an organization that provides and funds social service programs in Middlesex County, states in its 2019 Annual Report that they provided shelter to 585 people who would otherwise be homeless. However, the bedspaces available at Ozanam Inn in New Brunswick and Ozanam Family Shelter in Edison totals at 143 and both shelters only provide temporary and emergency lodging. The Annual Report also reveals that only 2% of Catholic Charities expenses was for Housing and Homeless Prevention.
9. Code Blue/Code Red - A New Jersey state law enacted in 2017 mandates the opening of "Code Blue" overnight warming centers for homeless individuals when outdoor temperatures drop below freezing. In New Brunswick, Code Blue shelters open when the temperature drops below 25 degrees or there are six or more feet of snow on the ground. A state law intoduced in 2018 would create a "Code Red" alert to shelter people during hot weather. The law states that "Code Red" shelters will be opened when temperatures are forecast to reach at least 95 degrees for at least two days or will reach at least 100 degrees for any length of time. Both laws are intended to keep vulnerable individuals safe from extreme weather.
10. Homeless Services, Employment - Facilitating access to work support is crucial to helping individuals experiencing homelessness obtain gainful and meaningful employment. The Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act of 2014 (WIOA) was created to help job seekers access employment, education, and training needed to succeed in the labor market. In New Jersey, the Senior Community Service Employment Program (SCSEP)/Workforce 55+, a federal program funded by the WIOA, helps older workers obtain employment through services such as assessments, individual employment plans, counseling, and training. Participants must be age 55 or older, unemployed, and have a family income no greater than 125% of the federal poverty level to be eligible. Enrollment priority is given to veterans, disabled individuals, individuals over 65, and individuals who are presently experiencing or are at risk of homelessness.

Transcript

Interview conducted by Kristin O’Brassill-Kulfan

New Brunswick, NJ

February 24, 2020

Transcription by Megan Shook

Annotations by Grace Hazen

[00:01]

Okay. So just for the sake of the recording, today is February 24th, 2020 it's approximately 12:25 in the afternoon. And I am speaking with Tony. Is it, is it Harris? 

Yes. Harris.

Tony Harris, um, at Elijah’s Promise on Nielsen street. Right. Where would you like to begin?

[00:24]

Well, I first came to Brunswick in 1970 and I started working as a bus driver for coach USA suburban. And I've been doing that for 25 years, 25 years, driving a bus. Then I got promoted to supervisor and when 9/11 came, I, I had a big res-I had a call from the governor to get the buses back from you, curious. And I had a big responsibility to try to get all of them people back when I was going into the tunnel and going to Wall Street and I lost two buses on Wall Street, but I need to lose no lives and nothing like that. But I, I lost, we lost two buses that day. And then when we got all the people back, but as we lost some people because we had 47 cars in the parking lot that day and those people were all lost. So I got a call from the mayor telling him thanks for a good job and everything, but I didn't think I did a good job because we had 47 cars back and they were all people who lost their lives.

Then um, I had a heart attack. I fell out in George Street one year and I had a bad heart attack and I couldn't work no more. Then I got homeless and I had to...I got,, I couldn't pay the bills because I had no income coming in. So then I, um, slept at the train station. I didn't know about Elijah’s - the promise here, I didn't know about this to the police officer told me then I found about that. And then ever since then I had help like Marisol and people like that, they helped me, you know, get along until I got an apartment. Everything, they're nice. I took a while before I got an apartment, but it took me until I got older. Then my pension kicked in. Then I was happy about that and I got a whole apartment. But then I got sick again because I was in Vietnam. I'm a vet and I have Agent Orange still in my body and I, I just got sick again and I couldn't move around and everything again. I was in the hospital for good six months. 

So, it's been hard, very hard. Anything. And like I said, Marisol and them, they did help me, you know, with the apartment and stuff like that. If it wasn't for them, I couldn't do it or at least come and eat, you know, it was, that was the main thing. How are you going to eat? You know, I did that. Marisol helped me and all the other people down there to help. And I've been coming here ever since. Ever since then. Yeah. But the scary part is when you, I have a heart problem and plus I have a Age...um, Agent Orange, um, still  in my body and I know I'm not the greatest health, but I'm walking, you know, that's how I feel.

[ Annotation 1 ]

[04:11]

You said you came to New Brunswick in 1970s you served in Vietnam before that, right?

Yeah, I spent two years. 

Did you enlist or were you drafted?

[04:19]

No, I got drafted when I was 17 years old. I had a letter from the, I just fresh out of high school and my mom--

Were you living locally?

 I was living in Brooklyn, New York and I got a letter, my, my mom's got a letter saying that I got drafted and I just got out of high school and I was shipped...I was shipped...I’ll never forget, I was shipped off. Yeah.

[04:50]

I spent two years over there, got wounded. They just patch you up, send you right back out. Then on our way on our last - on my second year coming back, that's when they start calling us baby killers and what was coming from California, start calling us baby killers, all kinds of things. We didn't get like parades like they giving now. It was different back in those days. So it was very rough back then, yeah. Then I met my wife who had died, you know she died when she was 30, no 27 of breast cancer and I had to raise my two kids. Yeah. That's when I got the job with working for Rutgers. I mean driving the bus and raise my two kids by my, I worked two jobs, McDonald's on 27 and Suburban driving the bus to raise two kids cause my wife had passed. 

[ Annotation 2 ]

How old were they when she died?

The oldest one, she was only nine and the little one, he was only three at the time, my son. So I'm mom and dad, you know. They grown now they, look, you know, they look out to make sure I'm alright and everything. But back in those days it was rough. You know, I mean I was sick and I still just go to work working two jobs cause you got two kids, you know? So that's my journey.

Did you have family nearby to help with the kids or?

[06:46]

Well my daughter got into her age when she started turning into a teenager and my sister helped me cause the women things I didn't know about back, you know, back especially back in those days, you know [laughing], and I start panicking [laughs]. If it wasn't for my sisters so my sisters helped me with that part. The boys, that's different. But girls is very difficult. Yeah. I didn't date uh, going or go on dates cause I was, you know, raising kids. I ain't had time for that, yeah. So I got through those days. Braiding hair, getting ready. Well I know when women go through, when they, when you gotta raise two kids tellin ya. When you got to raise kids. I understand very well about that.

What was it like for you growing up? Did you have a lot of family around?

 [07:43]

Oh yeah, it was nine of us. So we would, we're like a close family. We always had each other back. Plus we lived in Brooklyn. Brooklyn was bad [chuckles]. We were very bad over there in Brooklyn...but I know them all. Yeah, that was the good old days [chuckles]. 

May I ask what year you were born?

I was born in 1953.

What kind of things did you do in growing up? Games played as a kid. What was the neighborhood like?

 [08:16]

We was in the neighborhoods like neighborhood, you know, stick ball, bounce ball, tag in the middle of the street, running around like crazy kids. You know what? [chuckles] It was fun. It was back in the day was fun. Yeah. Yeah. It was fun. No, it's not like now. Um, now you know, we, we all we knew was in the streets playing, turned on the fire hydrant when it was summertime through the water. Those are the good old days. We had good days.

Did you have extended family around or just parents and kids?

Just parents and kids. That's all. Yeah.

What did your parents do for a living?

 [08:58]

Well, my mom never worked. My father, he was a security guard and everything. Mom never did work she always, she was, she was from down South, so she always stayed around and cook and make sure that we were alright, everything.

 Did your father come from the South as well or was he from New York?

[09:22]

He’s from Barbados, my father. Yeah,I never knew that until I got older, yeah. But yeah, I never knew he was from Barbados. My sister told me.

He didn’t tell stories about it or anything?

[09:33]

No. Yeah, I should have knew of the music that he always played around the house, you know, Calypso and all that. Yeah. I should knew. Yeah, but I didn’t. I'm the oldest of the family, so all my brothers look at me as for leadership and everything. So. So ever since then, yeah that’s how it was. Yeah.

Do they live locally? Do you get to see many of your siblings now?

[10:07]

Um, I most of them are still living, just, just one of them had died. One of my, one of my younger brothers died. But oh yeah, they, they live in, down South and around. But we still keep in touch and everything. But I wouldn't tell them like on my homeless when I was homeless, I was too embarrassed, you know, cause I'm the oldest, you know, I’m supposed to lead. You didn’t want, cause doing this cause they, you know, they say aw we can help you and I, and as the oldest you don't want to feel like...you sposed to be...Especially if you're the oldest child, you don't want, no, I didn't. I was so embarrassed. I didn't tell nobody. 

So none of them knew?

 No, no, no, no. To this day now, never. No, I told, told my daughter, she, when she, you know, she's older and everything, she said I could have lived with her. But I didn't want to live with...I ain't gotta you know, you live your life and let me just get up from that. You know, it's my, to me, I feel like if I'm homeless I could get myself out of it. Yeah. All I got to do, just do the right things and get out of it. And that’s what I did. But like I said, back in those days it was rough. No joke. It's not like now, like phones and all like that. You had all that back in the day. We didn't have none of that. So I'm very old school like today, like computers and phones. I still learn it and you know, cause I am not, I'm not up to all that.

What year was it that you had the heart attack and had to quit working?

Uh, I, that was in 1998. Right on George Street. And you're right in the middle of George. I was sweating a lot and I was over here and then my whole… and the middle of my face, my left side was numb from my feet to my neck. I couldn't move and down on the ground. I went.

 [12:26]

So you were able to keep working a couple of years after that, right? Because 9/11 right?

Yeah.

When, when did you have to stop working?

[12:36]

I had to stop when I started getting sick again. I had to stop. 

Roughly what year was that? 

That was in 2000 uh, 2008? Yeah. 2008. I stopped and that's when I applied for, and you know how this happened...hard...when I stopped working, things just start happening, you know? But I never told my kid or I never told my brothers. I...I, I just stayed at the train station and was homeless. Yeah. 

How long was that?

Hoo, at least six years. Six years. Yeah. I never told them nothing. Never told nobody. Til now. [laughs]

Were you able to find other places to say besides the train station? Did you move around at all?

 [13:44]

Train station was the safest at that time. Okay? If you go anywhere else you don't know. And, and, and especially I'm a vet and I like, you know, I like to be alone. I didn’t want to be around people. So that’s how I was.

What were your days and nights like? Trying to find food or..?

Oh. There were some days I didn't eat, you know, but I learned from Vietnam about how to do that. But when you do get a chance to eat all… I was too proud to ask people for money and ya know  because I had a pride so, but when you go to church, they have food. You'd go in and eat. You know? And you’d eat. Where you wash up at and everything. You go in the li--one of the public library, go in the bathroom, wash yourself, wash your face, and stuff like that. And that's how I survive. 

[ Annotation 3 ]

Did they let you stay in the train station overnight or did they close it?

[15:00]

They close it. So you had to sit outside the steps. Winter time - oh it was brutal. Summertime - it was okay. But you know, but you still got a lot of people walking around that, you know...winter time was very brutal. I was sick, I got sick, but I, I had a V..V... I could go to the VA hospital at the time. So I took care of it, you know. Instead of going to the regular Robert Wood, I went to the VA hospital They take, they took good care of me. Yeah.

Do they have resources to help with housing or anything like that? Through the VA?

[15:45]

Not until it...til...I forgot what president signed the bill that gave us that. We didn't have it back then. It was, I forgot what president signed the bill. Then we start getting, now we get it, anything right now you, if I get homeless right now, they'll find me a place real quick, you know? But not back then, no.

[ Annotation 4 ]

And there's been a big change. 

Oh there’s been a very big, very big change for every big change.

So currently you have an apartment in New Brunswick?

Yes, I do. I live off Livingston Avenue. Nice little apartment. Marisol helped me. She's cool. I love her. She's so cool. [laughs] And believe me, she will. She does help. Anyone that don't believe, especially if you have a vet like me, you know, that's, we like to keep to ourself. We do not like to share too much, you know? I'm just being honest, I mean, yeah. 

Do you talk with other veterans when you meet them? 

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Are there are many here who'll come to the meals or anything. 

Um, not like before most of them had died. I'm 66 but some of them all or older than me. But you know, they were good. You could tell we bond, you know? Yeah.

Not, not that much. Everybody always say they was in a lot of guys. These young guys always say yeah, I was in the Army, I was in the Navy. but they never been in war in its face. Is it different at the same to you in there or being overseas is different. Very different. When you get wounded and you're not bruised to show it, it’s very different. It's not the same. Anybody could say they could been there if you really been there, you know, like I was. When it thundered and lightning I would hide in the closet. I had to go to therapy for two years for that, because I felt like I was being bombed so I had to go to therapy right here in New Brunswick too. Yeah. I had to go to therapy for two years for that. And I came when a thunder and lightening boom I ran. I had to be in therapy for that, but now I'm okay, you know? But it's still, I get scared, you know? Yeah. I don't let people know that I'm scared, but I'm still scared [laughs]. That’s the truth.

[ Annotation 5 ]

Is it difficult to remember things from the war sometimes? 

 [18:47]

Sometimes you have a little nightmare about it. Sometimes it's okay to talk about it. You know they have a book in the free library that, my picture is there in Saigon. Sandon. Yeah, on top of the roof. But the helicopter and the black guy, yeah, that’s me.

[19:15]

What was happening in the photo? What's the photo of?

[19:17]

We were getting people to get on the helicopter.

To evacuate?

Yeah. What do you say - Tony Harris, right there. I saw it and said I sure did look younger then [laughs]. 

You were seventeen?

Yeah! I was seventeen. Didn’t know nothing, man.

 [19:43]

What was it like coming back? You were what, 18, 19 when you came back?

 [19:47]

Yeah, I was 19 when I came back. I feel like I knew a lot. I grew up a lot. I was a snot nosed little kid, crying all the time, scared to shoot anybody cause you don’t know. But when you came back you, you toughen up a little bit. You know? You knew, you know. Yeah, yeah it was a way big different when I came back.

[20:14]

Did it take a little while to find work, or a place to live, to go back to your-?

[20:19]

I went with my mom before my mom died. I couldn't find work because back in those days they weren't hiring Vets at that time. They really wasn't. Especially Vietnam vets, they weren't hiring. I like, today, like I got offered to go walk through the, um, military parades here. But if you see that it's not one Vietnam vet that won’t go, we really won’t. We won’t go. Because the way we were treated when we came out. Why should I go? I won’t go. You’ll see all others, B-but once, if you really look to see, if you see a Vietnam vet and you won’t see one. Cause the way, when we came home, we was called all kinds of names. We didn't have that. Like what guys that come back, you know like, guys, will say heroes. Yeah. Yeah. I agree - they are heroes. Y'all appreciate it. But w- not when we were. Like, I said, we were fighting a war, I don't know what we're fighting for, really. All I know, I was there.

[ Annotation 6 ]

[21:37]

Was it difficult at the time while you were there to feel like you didn't know what you were fighting for? 

Yes, very. Especially when you're young, you know, why am I'm killing this person? He didn’t do nothing to me, you know? But when you see your buddy get killed right next to you, then you, you have to react. You know. Or mostly my great good buddies were white, white buddies. You know, it was back in those days, you know, it was black/white... But no, that was, he was my brother. You know, we protect each other no matter what. See if people who've been in Vietnam what, know what I'm talking about, that's my brother. I protect him just as much. Does...his skin doesn't matter to me. He's my brother.

Was that similar to or different from your experiences at home? Before and after?

[22:36]

Very different. Yes. Oh Lord, yes. Yes. Because before I went in, all I know - oh that’s white, that’s black, this and that. When I came out, that's my brother. I was proud to say, yes. Well, he's white. Doesn't matter, he's my brother. I'm going to protect him just as much. Yeah. So that’s how it was.

Do you feel like you had experiences with discrimination before or after? Because of your race?

Oh yeah. And back in those days? Yeah. You do. It was.  It really was. It's a little bit now because it’s how, they hidin it, but it was straight up back then [laughing]. It was definitely straight up. I don’t want to bore you with my stories.

Oh no! Your stories are wonderful. I’m really enjoying talking with you. Absolutely!

[laughter] Yeah..

Do you have any, any memories that you can share from growing up in under segregation and with the more overt racism?

[23:48]

I wish I woulda went to the, uh, march.

Which one? The march on Washington?

Yeah, I wish I woulda went. I didn't have the money or whatever. And plus my mom was sick at the time, so I wish I would've went, you know. My sisters went. They had, they experienced, and I wish I would've went, really. That is what I wish I would be a part of. Not the 9/11 thing that I was a part of, but to me when that 9/11 thing happened, you could feel that the country was getting together. You know, because everybody was watching everybody’s back, you know? We felt like we were being attacked, yeah. But boy, trying to get those people, um, to turn those buses around. I had 47 buses out there full of people going in New York on in the time when that happened and when I got that call to get them back... Oh, I'm yelling, screaming, talking on the radio, talking on - trying to get them back. It was hard. It was no joke.

[25:07]

Did you know at the time what was happening?

Yeah, because we had a TV. TV, yeah. We had a TV, so I knew exactly what was happening.

Right.

It was scary too. You're getting calls from the big bosses upstairs and you're getting a call from the governor personally from the governor- come and you get those people back! God, what a responsibility. I won't put that on nobody. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I want to go through that again. [laughter]Yeah. I don't think I want to go through that again. 

[25:44]

How long did it take? How long were you out?

I was out...I was supposed to did an eight shift. I did fourteen and a half hours? On. Yeah. 

So you were driving the bus when it happened? 

No I was dispatch.

Dispatch, okay. 

But do you know the bus would come in front of the station, you know, and the office is right there and you could see the people loading up. Now you sending all these buses out, 47 buses every morning going out to New York and you got to churn them all back to come back. A big responsibility, that was.

[26:31]

You mentioned that there were cars parked -

Yes

- people who didn't make it back. Were those commuters or drivers?

[26:40]

Oh, commuters. Commuters. 47 cars. Yup, in the parking lot, yeah.

How long did it take again before the buses started running up back up to New York?

Um, a week later. Yeah. But they gave me two weeks, I think wo weeks or three days to get myself back cause I was really messed up really. You know? Yeah, sure. 47 you looking out there, it's like a ghost. Yeah. Let's see, what an experience. Yeah.

Ok, we done? 

If you’d like to be done, we can be done.

[laughter]

We can take as much time. Would it be okay if I asked you a couple more questions about living in the train station? 

Sure. Mmhmm.

 [27:35]

What were your experiences there like with the police or transit security or anything?

Police will always harass always because they don't want you to sleep and they want. There was one time they raided everybody that was sleeping. There'll be police around this way and around so they will ask for ID, then they gave you a ticket. It was 25 hours. Yeah, but I got one. 

Some other people that have, what was the ticket for? 

Sleeping in a, inside. Yeah.

Was it a loitering charge?

Loitering, yeah. 

[ Annotation 7 ]

[28:19]

Is that the only time that happened or that happened many times? 

At least four times and gave us tickets. Everybody - all were sleeping all got tickets. Doesn't care if you were homeless, doesn’t care. Yeah, all got tickets. Yeah, I got two, I remember I had two. Two times they let me go, but two times they gave me a ticket and I had to pay it..

How many people do you think were sleeping in the train station on any given day? When you were there?

[28:58]

15. I’m not imagining, I’m guaranteeing 15.

Is it the same people or did it..?

Same people. Same. Yeah, now it's like more, yeah. More now.

Is it difficult to find access to resources about shelter and things?

Some of the resources, um, back then were full so you couldn't really..

Like with shelters? 

They were definitely full. Yeah. I wish we would have more shelters. It's only one men's shelter here and it’s always full. Always. They don’t have that many here. They have a woman’s shelter but you got to go all the way in Edison, you know, and that's far for women. And you see a lot of women outside, you know, sleeping outside -cause they, they don't want, they don't want to make that long walk.

[ Annotation 8 ]

[30:01]

Is that how most people would get around by walking between towns or?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah

Did you ever do that while you were?

I, yeah, I walked a lot. I walked to Edison [sighs]. That’s..a lot of walks. I walk from Piscataway to here in New Brunswick. Yeah. Did a lot of walking. I lost a lot of sneakers.

[30:27]

Were you able to find safe places like in the parks or anywhere like that? Or there was not safe places?

It depends on what the weather was because if you're in the park in the summertime, you get the mosquitoes and the bugs are bothering you. You can't really get no sleep. And in the cold you got the wind blowing when you sleep on that bench and when the wind - it really hits. So your best bet was at the train station there. When they closed the train station to just being steps way only, get to shelter that way. Yeah. That's where I was, I'm not ashamed to say I was….I was there. Yeah. 

But now it's just, it's so crowded now. It's a lot of people there now. Some of the, some of the guys, they young. They could, they just don't want to get a job because back then when my days we didn't, couldn't hardly find a job, but now they got jobs out there. There’s jobs out there. I wish I was young, I’d be working two...like I said, I worked two jobs. I know. 

[ Annotation 9 ]

Was there just a shortage of work or was it difficult to get prepared and finding, like, a way to get ready for an interview? Those kinds of things.

[32:02]

The good jobs, you have to be prepared and you have to be clean and you couldn't find a way to go clean yourself and get prepared. Or plus you didn't have the clothes. Because they didn't have this place here. When you get clothes and stuff, so you have to forget about that. You only have to take the job that do labor work. You know, like. And that was only temporary. They wasn't full time, you know? And they only call you once in a while. They don't call you all the time. You have to do... And plus, you know, I was older, I wasn't younger, I was older. And when you get older...everybody gets the young, they don’t get the old. Because, and plus I was, they knew I was getting sick. So you know, you get a young man who's strong, why get this old man, he's sick.

[ Annotation 10 ]

You still had access to healthcare while you were there through the VA?

Yeah. Mmhmm.

What did other people do who didn't have that resource if they got sick?

Oh, they got sick, yeah, you know? I wish I could have helped them. Yeah, couldn't, you know, you see some people really died. I've seen a couple of people die they was so sick. It was really bad. It really was. I seen some things. It was so bad, but they didn't have that resource.

[33:34]

People died while they were sleeping at the station? 

Uh huh. Yeah.

From the cold, or? 

[33:38]

Yeah. Especially from the cold. When we had that big winter time in New Jersey, one lady froze to death. I knew her. It was really bad. Really. One guy I know, his feet frostbitten. it just turned purple. His whole feet. Cause he has sneakers with holds in it and at the time this was just not developed, it wasn't here so you couldn't really get it.

[34:15]

Yeah. Was anyone giving out clothing or food? Was there anyone coming?

Only thing were was just the kitchen to eat and that was it. It wasn't food giving out. See everything changed. Now they give you anything you want, now, but not back then? No, no.

When do you think it started to change? Within the last five years? 10 years?

10 years. Yeah. The last 10 years, it really started picking up in 2001 that's when it really started, really. Back then, way back. No. Okay.

Is there anything else you would like to share?

No I’m good, I’m good.

Thank you so much for talking with me, Tony. I really, really appreciate it.

[35:09]

I hope I didn't keep you too long, I mean [laughs].

No, no as much time as you like. It’s great. Thank you so much.