Mariah Davila

New Brunswick native Mariah Davila describes her time in public school as well as her complex relationship with her family, as she navigates her life as a trans woman.

“Yeah, I do. I was, um, I was 17? And my sister bought me– well she didn’t buy it for me, but she bought a dress. And it didn’t fit her. But, she was like, ‘Try this one.’ And I was like, ‘I’m gonna get in trouble.’ And she was like, ‘You’re at my house. Your parents are all the way in New Brunswick. They ain’t gonna know.’ So, I tried it on, and it fit, and I saw the way it fit, and the way it felt, it was just– it felt right. It felt like I was meant to be in a dress. ”
— Mariah Davila

Annotations

1. Transgender Youth, Repression - Studies show that transgender children understand and express their gender identities just as early and strongly as cisgender children do. However, the expectation of rejection through external stigma and association of environments with anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment can result in concealment of one's identity as a means of self-protection. In addition, expectation of rejection often extends through a variety of social contexts, manifesting feelings of fear, anxiety, and isolation.
2. Deadnaming - Deadnaming is the use of a transgender or gender expansive individual's name given at birth after they have chosen a name that reflects and affirms their gender identity. A 2018 study from the University of Texas at Austin found that consistently using an individual's chosen name and pronouns has positive mental health outcomes in transgender youth, including decreases in suicidal thoughts and depression. The study accounted for the contexts of school, work, home, and among friends, and found that even respect of an individual's chosen name in one of these contexts showed a 29% decrease in suicidal thoughts. These results indicate that each context matters.
3. Transgender Students' Rights - In the fall of 2018, the New Jersey Department of Education issued guidelines to protect transgender students in all school districts in the state. These guidelines include using names and pronouns chosen by each student in the classroom and on student identification cards, and allowing students to dress according to their gender identity without penalty. A student's gender identity must be accepted, and schools are not required to notify parents/guardians, giving the student agency over their coming out and ensuring their safety in all contexts. In addition, state laws that require implementation of policies against harassment, intimidation, and bullying apply to protect transgender students in school. These guidelines provide clarity for school staff and faculty in ensuring the protection of the rights, safety, and dignity of transgender students.
4. Transgender Students' Rights, LGBTQ+ History Curriculum - In January 2019, New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy signed legislation mandating curriculum that includes the historical marginalization and achievements of LGBTQ+ individuals and individuals with disabilities across disciplines. This step combats intersectional erasure by more accurately reflecting Americans of all genders, sexualities, and abilities to increase empathy and awareness as key to students' education, reinforce inclusivity for all involved in schools, and to celebrate histories and identities that have long been misrepresented. In January 2020, Garden State Equality and Make it Better for Youth rolled out a pilot program in twelve public schools in order to make implementation of new curriculum efficient and effective, including a plan to guide teachers through the transition. In August, these two organizations released comprehensive resources for educators and adminstrators to utilize for the 2020-2021 school year.
5. Support Groups - A 2017 survey conducted by GLSEN found that a large majority of LGBTQ+ New Jersey students continue to face bullying and harassment despite the passing of, and developments based on, the 2011 Anti-Bullying Bill of Rights Act, which was meant to ensure the safety of all students. The research shows that students largely lacked resources, or knowledge of them, to seek support when facing bullying and discrimination. One in ten students surveyed reported being prevented from forming a Gay-Straight Alliance or Gender and Sexuality Alliance (GSA). Peer support is key for LGBTQ+ youth, especially when they feel a lack of support from their families and/or school staff and faculty. GSAs play a role in making schools safer by providing student-led space for LGBTQ+ students to discuss, organize, share resources, and find a welcoming community. The presence of GSAs correlates with more inclusive school environments, and these organizations often push for needed change in schools as well.
6. Trans Representation - Media has long portrayed transgender people as stereotypes of villains or victims, and the violence and erasure of trans people highlights the need for positive representation in film, television, advertisements, and more. Authentic images of transgender people's lives empower the trans community and inspire empathy, respect, and validation in our culture. Research on the impact of positive representation on trans and gender-expansive youth is scarce, but we know that different types of media are incredibly influential, and existing research has found that trans people in media help youth to explore and understand their identities and to expand their imagination of possibility in their lives as trans people.
7. Physical Transition, Privacy - In the past two years, New Jersey has passed legislation which promote privacy for transgender individuals and separate medical transition from social transition, validating gender identity as separate from anatomy. The Babs Sipertein Law, passed in 2019, removes the requirement of proof of surgery in order to process a change of name and gender indicator on driver's licenses and replacing medical provider certification with self-attestation. In December 2020, an amendment ending the rule which required public advertisement of name change was passed. This prior requirement threatened the safety of transgender individuals, requiring them to out themselves as transgender, and posed a financial barrier to social transition for many as well. New Jersey became the eighteenth state to remove the publication requirement, recognizing privacy considerations and increasing ease in social transition for transgender individuals. In addition, this validates the identities of transgender individuals who are unable to, or who do not wish to, physically transition.
8. Gender-affirming Clothing - Clothing is a key marker of gender in our society, and gender-afffirming clothing can be a crucial aspect of social transition as a means of expressing one's identity and finding comfort in their own bodies. Trans-inclusive clothing expands traditional notions of gendered bodies through shifts such as expanding sizes and providing shapes that accomodate and flatter or enhance bodily features. Factors such as a lack of family acceptance or financial constraints often hinder trans indiviuals' access to affirming clothing. Community-led digital and in-person clothing swaps provide affordable and, often, free clothing and related gender-affirming items.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by John Keller

New Brunswick, New Jersey

August 24, 2017

Transcription by Leslie Roth

Annotations by Samantha Resnick

0:00

Okay, great!  This is John Keller, um, interviewing, uh, Mariah Davila, uh, at, uh, Rutgers University on August 24th 2017.  Um,  Great. So! Mariah, where were you born?

I was born here, in New Brunswick, New Jersey, like, twenty years ago. Uh, I actually– my birthday actually did just pass a month ago.  I just turned 20.    

When was your birthday?

My birthday was July 27th.  

Did you do anything special for it?

Not really. I had, um, a get together with my siblings, cuz we hadn’t all been together since my first birthday?  So it’s been twenty years since all nine of us have been together.  

Oh, wow.  So, um, where– you were born in New Brunswick?
Yeah, mhm, in New Brunswick.

And where did you live at that time?

At that time, we were located still in New Brunswick, but we actually lived next door to where I live now. We used to live with my grandparents. In, um– and it was like a three– four bedroom house, and it was like almost 17 people living in the house at that time?  

Wow.

Yeah, so it was just, uh– Me and my mom and my dad stayed in the back room. And it was just us until my mom got pregnant again, when I was 4, with my little brother.  And– I lowkey was highly upset, because I said I wanted a sister, and I got a brother.  And I was highly like, “I didn’t want it!”  When my mom gave birth she was like, “It’s a boy, you have a brother!” I was like, “But I wanted a sister.”  And she was like, “Well, you got a brother.”  And I was like, “Take him, [inaudible], I don’t want it.”  

What– what made you want a sister so badly?
I wanted a sister so bad because I wanted somebody closer to my age to be around, cuz all my older brothers and sisters are legitimately, like, way older than me. I think the closest one to my age is– 36?  And then there’s my younger brother, who’s 15, so, there’s a huge age gap between all of us. And it’s like, it’s: 42, 41, 40, 38, 37, 36, 36, 20.  And then there’s the 15 year old. And the 15-year-old just had a baby too.     

So are they, um, are they all your full siblings?  Or half siblings?  
All of them are my– most of them are my half siblings, except for my little brother. We have a lot of children in my family–my dad was a–he got around when I was a child. But, yeah. But most of the time we’re like– we’re really close. Like especially me and my– three of my older sisters, we’re really close because one of my sisters is, um– two of them are LGBT, one is just really supportive of all of us, so, it helps. And then my brother is– most of my brothers are really supportive too, so it just helps with my situation, and how I live in the house, because– my parents aren’t fully sold on the whole being-transgender-thing.  

And, um, so you said all of these people were living in the same house?  It was all members of your family together?  Since you were a child?

Um, yeah, not all of my siblings, but it was, um, two of my aunts and then their kids.  And then my grandparents, me, my mom, my dad, and then, like, three of my uncles.  

What are your, like, earliest memories of– of that house and everyone living there?  

The earliest memory I have is a Christmas morning—I don’t know how old I was—but, I got this remote controlled cop on a motorcycle.  And we all had our– like I think like four of us got like remote-controlled things that move? So we had a race. From the kitchen to the front door. And the kitchen’s in the back of the house and the front door’s obviously in the front– I lost. Horribly. Because I couldn’t get around the–the corner. Because it was the kitchen, then right after the kitchen there’s a couch, and I couldn’t make the turn to get around the couch. So I lost and I was highly upset, and then my older cousins were like, “It’s just a game.  Relax.”  And I was like, “No!  But I wanted to win.  I’m the biggest.”  Because the guy on the motorcycle was like– this big? And they all had things that were like– that big.  You know, and I was just like, “It’s not fair.”  And then I guess my other memory would have to be– sitting in my grandparent’s room in like the middle of the night watching TV with them.  And it was like the best thing in the world. Actually, my grandmother, who used to live there, actually just died in the past year.  I actually went to see her today, uh, before I came here. Um, yeah, I miss her.  She died, um, in September. From– cancer. I don’t exactly know which one, but, she died from cancer. And I was in the room when she died. Because– she wanted to die at home with her family. So, she came home, and then I went to see her, and then it was like, Grandma– Grandma not doing so hot. But, yeah, that was that. Situation. But I remember one thing about my grandma that always makes me laugh to this day. I think I asked her, like, when she was still doing chemo, she, um– I asked her, “Grandma, don’t feel offended, but did you ever forget about your period after you had so many kids?” And she said, “Yes.”  She was like, “Legitimately, when I got it back, I was terrified.” And I was like, “Oh, no, Grandma.  What was you doing?”  She was like, “Look. I had fun.”

6:00

How many kids did she have?
Fifteen.  

Wow.
And all of them– I think out of all fifteen, she has– thirteen left? If not, twelve. But all– most of them.  

Was your family originally from the New Brunswick area?
Um, my mom’s was, my dad is from– I think he’s from Newark. Yeah, he’s from Newark, New Jersey.  But then my dad– they moved here because Newark was dangerous, cuz– it’s Newark. So they moved here, and then him and my mom met. They’re actually childhood sweethearts; they met when they were nine.  And then they got married two years after I was born. Two years and one month.  Their anniversary’s actually on Sunday. And then my dad’s birthday is on Wednesday. And they’re always talking about the wedding, and I’m like, “I don’t remember.” But they was like, “You was there,” but I’m like, “I don’t remember. It must have not been that– that well planned out, if I don’t remember.”  

So, you talked about your grandmother - did you spend a lot of time with her growing up?

I used to talk to her constantly.  Like after I turned, like, I think nine? I would always have conversations about, like, food– because most of the time, when I, like, went into her room, she was watching like The Food Network. And she was like always watching stuff about like– steak, chicken, turkey. Just a whole bunch of food, I’m like, “Grandma, you must love to eat.” And that’s half the time– other than that, we was watching General Hospital or The Young and The Restless.  And that was like our thing.  We just constantly did that.  Whenever I came over.  And then, after that, we would, um– I would ask her questions about how– how my dad was growing up. Or my uncles.  Depending on which one I was curious about at the time, because she had mad kids– they all over the place.  And my grandfather who is– my grandfather’s Hispanic.  My grandfather is the Puerto Rican in my family, and he, um– his accent is still really thick to this day.  And I’m just like, “Why don’t none of your kids know Spanish?” If you speak fluent Spanish. He is legitimately– he is from Vega Baja, Puerto Rico. So, he, um, he’s from Puerto Rico, so he knows Spanish.  He’s native, and I’m just like, “Why don’t your kids know. I want to know Spanish, but you ain’t teach yo kids Spanish so they didn’t teach me Spanish.”  I had to learn it on my own.  And then he was just like, “Look. I was in America. America and Hispanic wasn’t flowing right at the time.” I’m transposing his words, but basically he said America and Spanish weren’t getting along so I did not teach them Spanish, cuz I didn’t want no discrimination against my kids, so I was like, “Okay.  It makes sense.” I mean, I was highly upset, but as long as I was okay, that’s all I cared about.  Still to this day my grandfather is like, “You got money?”  He’s always asking me for money.  And it’s like, “If I had it, you’d have it.”  That’s just something he always says.  And then like his famous line is, “Good morning.” It’ll be, like, 2:30 in the afternoon, “Good morning.”  9:00 at night, “Good morning.”  Like, I do that too.  And so does my, um, my sisters. Two of my sisters do it too, they go, “Good morning.” I’m just like– And everybody’s like, “It’s the afternoon,” or “It’s the middle of the night,” and I’m just like, “Well, good morning– leave me alone.”  

9:45

Where did you go to school?
I started school, um, I went to Puerto Rican Action Board, down on Drift Street. And then from there, I went to Lincoln Elementary School up on Bartlett Street by the College Ave. campus.  I went there from kindergarten to sixth grade, then the middle school– well, the high school became the middle school.  And then I went there from seventh grade to eighth grade. Then I went to New Brunswick High School. And currently, I am– well, not currently. I’m about to go to Middlesex in– January?  January. 

During this whole time you were still living in the same house?  With all of your siblings?
No. During this whole time it was me, my mom, my dad, my oldest brother and my youngest brother.  And that was it.  We moved out of the house with my grandparents, we moved up– since I was going, um, since I was going, uh– we moved from my grandparents house up to Richardson Street up by the college, then from there we moved around the corner to Senior Street, still up by the college.  And then I think at each place we spent a total of six– about six– yeah, around six to seven years at each house. Cuz I remember when I moved into Richardson Street I was six, and when we went to Senior Street I was going on twelve, or just turned twelve.  And then, when we moved back to– where I live now, I was– going on thirteen?  So, I was in– I was going from sixth grade to seventh grade, so I was, yeah, around fourteen, and then now I’m twenty and we’re still living there.  So, it was a long process of going right back to where I started, pretty much.  Cuz I live right next door to where I used to live.  

What kinds of things do you remember about school around this time?  As you said, you started school at Puerto Rican Action Board. So that’s where you did, like, nursery school or kindergarten?  

Yeah, like, pre-K?  I remember just like– my mom being highly upset with the fact that I was always with the girls and nd not with the boys.  Because every time she’d pick me up I’d sitting in a circle with the girls playing something, like, most likely a hand game, like patty cake or something like that, instead of playing catch or something like that with boys, and she was just like, “Go play catch,” and I was just like, “That’s a lot of work. I gotta run.” I was like, “I got a lot of hair on my head, I don’t like to sweat, Ma.”  My exact words.  And she gets mad at me cuz I’m– at the time, I kept, I didn’t call her “mom” I called her by her first name, cuz that was my first word, and she was like, “Don’t do that.”  And I was just like, “What?” And then her name, and she was like, “We’re gonna teach you today.”  So I had to learn to call her “mommy” or “mom” because I just kept calling her by her first name.  She didn’t like it.  And my dad at the time– he wasn’t around, because he was– doing– time.  For his past actions.  But, he better now. That’s all that matter. He was only in there for like a year.  Or two. So. He wasn’t too much out of my life. But, in them years I got heavily influenced by the femininity of my mom, and my aunts, and my sisters, and my grandma. And then he was highly upset when he got back that I was so “flamboyant”.  And then I turned– when I got to– first grade, is where I noticed that I had a strong attraction to not-females.  And then, like, my mom and dad started arguing over my cousin being homosexual and I was like, “What’s that?” And then they kind of explained to me in like blunt terms and I’m like I’m six, so blunt is, like, bad to me at the time, but it was like, “Basically is like when you like boys and you’re supposed to like girls,” and I was like, “Oh.”  And in the back of my head I’m like, “Oh. Um. I’m not right in the head.”  But as I grew a little older, and got more confident in myself, I kinda– just like– or not even confident, I just like suppressed it. I knew, but nobody else knew.  I got bullied for it, but I didn’t tell nobody. Until I think like the seventh grade?  I came out as bisexual.  Then in the eighth grade I came out as gay, because I was like, “I’m gonna stop lying. I don’t like girls. I don’t. They don’t do nothing fo’ me.”  And then– I got to high school, and high school was such a broad awakening to the LGBT, because there was a lot of– everything there. And a lot of people were telling to me, “Do you want to get surgery to be a girl,” and I was like, “Surgery to be a girl?!”  Back of my head I was like, “I would like to do that– but I’m not gonna say that to nobody.” And then– a lot of people would ask me cuz I was really feminine, obviously, because I was still feminine, and then I’d be around girls all the time, I’d talk about makeup, I’d know more about the feminine body than some of the girls and they’d be like, “I didn’t even know about that!” And I was like, “Well, you need to learn.” And then sophomore year I came out as transgender to my friends, then my parents. Mom wasn't too happy about that because the first two times I came out, it wasn’t cute either. I came out as bisexual and she was like, “So you confused?”  And I was like, “Sure.” 

15:45 

So you said that was around when– you said you were six, originally, when you first kind of understood?

Yeah with what’s non-straight.  What’s not-the-norm.  

Do you remember how you dealt with that?  Or, were you able to talk about it at all?

I wasn’t able to talk about it at all with family, because after I brought it up in that question, like, asking them, like, “What is it?” they were just like, “No.”  Uh, how I dealt with it as a child?  I just, like, suppressed it.  I was just like, “Let me just keep to myself.  Because. I don’t wanna get in trouble.”  And, like, it was like, every time I turned around, my dad, my uncles, or somebody was just bashing some gay person, somewhere in the world.  And I was like, “I don’t want them to do that to me.”  So, I just kept it to myself.  My mom was like– she took the religious approach, and was like, “You goin’ to hell.”  Or, “You’re– you’re just a sin.”  And I was like, “I don’t wanna be a sin.”  Cuz I was a church child.  I was heavily involved in church.

[Annotation 1]

So you said around the time of seventh grade was when you first came out as bisexual?
Uh huh, I came out as bisexual.  

And you said you came out to both your friends at school and to your family?

Uh huh.

And was that– if we think about it as, you know, two sides of it, was it like two different kinds of experiences?  Or was it pretty much the same.

Yes. It was different for my friends because in middle school, I got bullied a lot for being feminine, but it got better, I guess, I wasn’t bullied as much after I came out as something other than straight, because people were like, “We was waiting for it.”  And then after that, like, I gained more friends.  I gained– especially male friends, which is odd because they’d be like, “Oh, you, like, so you gonna like me.” Because a lot of people, like a lot of guys at the time were like, “Well, if you like guys, that automatically means you like every guy,” and I’m just like, “No. It don’t work like that. Do you like every girl you see? I don’t think so! Cuz I know Jaquita over there smell like rotten fish and eggs. And y’all don’t like her. So therefore, leave me alone.” And then there was– the next– the following year, I came out as gay, cuz I was just tired of everybody being like, “Do you like this girl? Do you like that girl?  What do you like?” I’m just like, “I don’t– like girls at all.  Leave me alone.”

Was there any sort of– was that different at all for your– for your friends at school?

It was different for my male friends because they were like– some of them were like, “So you lied.”  Or some of them was like, “So, who do you like?” Like, they kept asking “Who do you like? Is it me?” I was just like, “No.”  My experience with my parents coming out as bisexual was a whole different situation.  My dad was– surprisingly my dad was actually okay with it.  Well– he seemed to be more okay with it than my mother.  My mother was highly upset.  She was cursing at me.  She was– like, getting very– she was hyperventilating a little bit.  And she was like– at the end of it, basically, like, she said, “As long as I can have grandkids.”  And I was like, “Okay!  Whatever.  As long as I don’t get hit.”  And then I came out then the following year as gay and she was like, “I can’t have no grandkids. Cuz you don’t like girls no more.”  So, and she started crying about that, she started– she was like, “You lied to me. You know I’m always there for you,” but I was like, “You say that, but every time I do come to you about something, you get upset.  You start yelling, I get scared, I don’t wanna talk to you no more about anything, and then I try to be an adult, or just grow up about it and know that you’re my mother, but, the way you react to certain things just don’t work for my mentality.”  And then, in high school, I got exposed to– drag, pride, because I didn’t know what pride was until high school, I was like, “What’s pride? What is that?”  And everybody was explaining, “It’s, like, the gay pride parade.”  And I was like, “I want to go!”  To this day I still haven’t gone.  Uh. Told my ma I was gonna go one year, she told me to come home the day before.  But I was like, “I wanna go…to the...okay.” And then when I started doing makeup, hair, and– I was sort of androgynous at one point, during high school, and I would wear heels, or I would makeup at certain points in the year, and people– I don’t know– to this day to this day I still don’t know who it is, but people would get it back to my parents, and I’m just like, “One, why is it your business, two, how do you know my parents, and three, why are my parents listening to you?”  But.  Eh. It got back to them, like, “What’s going one?”  I told them that I was considering– doing, uh, gender reassignment surgery, they were like, “What is that?”  and I was like, “Basically, I want to be a girl.”  And then my mom started crying, my dad was like, “What?!  I can handle everything else, but you don’t want yo’...situation?”  And I was like, “I ain’t ever said that.  That’s not what I said.  I said I wanna be a girl.  I want to be addressed as this, this and this.”  And they just simply to this day ain’t having it.  My mom did try, on my birthday, cuz she kept calling me “Birthday Girl”, but then she was like– my birth name– and I was just like, “You need to– fix it.”  All my friends were highly upset that she had my other name on the cake, instead of my name, knowing, for about now going on four years, that I don’t go by that name.  But I legitimately– like somebody would come up to me on the street, like a friend or somebody, and they’ll call me Mariah, they won’t call me by my birth name.  And she’ll still do it.  Last year, for my birthday, she was correcting people.  And I was like, “What is you doing?!”  My friend introduced me to her mom as Mariah, my mom was like, “No, his name is Miguel,” and I was just like, “What is you doing?”  And to this day her parents will not accept Mariah.  Like, they’ll ask if I can come over, or they’ll say, like, “Mariah,” and they’ll be like, “Who?”  And then they gotta say my other name, so they know who I am.  And it’s annoying.  And then during the happy birthday song, everybody else said “Mariah” , she said, “Miguel” and then she got mad because everybody else said “Mariah”.  And she started yelling and I was like, “Alright. That wasn’t necessary.”  And the thing, for my birthday, I was transitioned publicly, like, everybody knows to call me she/her, it’s “hers”, and my name and everything. I was even fully dressed female at the time, but she just wouldn’t  switch over.  My dad don’t either.  Siblings do.  I think a good 6 out of 9 call me by my name and pronouns.  The other ones don’t.  Because– they’re religious, and they’re just like, “I can’t.  I’m not. I love you, but I’m not going to call you that.”  And I was like, “Well, by the time I get it legally changed, if you ain’t calling me that, I’m not responding to you.”  

[Annotation 2]

23:58

What was high school like? I mean, you said, you know, you kind of had some experiences where you were dressing differently, you were starting to dress in your true identity, and was that process like, to go through that–

That process was a little harder for me than just coming out as transgender or something like that because my parents were very reluctant to help me in that aspect?  Like, they wouldn’t buy me female clothes. They wouldn’t buy me anything feminine. So I’d have to find a loophole, and find, like, guy things that looked feminine on me. So I’d have to go through that process.  And then, I would have– my friends would help me by giving me certain items of clothing like– my friends would give me bras, or they would give me makeup, [those types of things so that I could have– ] (unclear) because my parents wasn’t helping me get it. Then I got a job!  My first job. I was workin’ at McDonalds.  Age of 17, I was so happy!  I was like, “I can wear what I want!” And my mom was like, “If you dare to come in my house with anything that’s not what I bought you—well, anything that's not male—I’m snatching it off you.” And I was like, “Well. I’m just gonna stick to my old plan! And buy really feminine male clothing.” And that’s how that happened.  In high school, transitioning was– a target, for me?  Because I did get more harassed for it, cuz a lot of guys in school didn’t know what to do with me?  Because there would be some days when I was really feminine, and days where I wasn’t.  And then they’d put the connection together and they’d be like, “That’s the same person.”  And then they’d be upset because they were into me, and then they’d find out that I was “still male”, and then they’d– it was highly upsetting.  I got into fights.  I got into arguments.  It just– actually, one time, I walked into a room– into a room, well, a classroom, and the teacher started laughing at me.  And I was like, “You know I can report you for that, right?  Because that is harassment.”  He was like, “You don’t know what I was laughing at.” I was like, “Clearly, if nobody else was talkin’, and I just walked in the room, and you starin’ at me, you must be laughin’ at me.”  He don’t– to this day he don’t work there anymore, so. He gone.  

What kinds of– you said you got in arguments, or you got in fights– what would be the cause of it?
The cause? Just what I’d wear, or certain things I would wear, like, I’d wear heels and people would be like, “If you’re gonna wear heels, put lotion on,” or, “If you’re gonna wear heels– don’t walk like that.  If you’re gonna wear heels, wear this.”  And I’m just like, “Don’t tell me what to wear.  Cuz if I like how I look, that’s all that matters. You can stay in the corner.”  

Did you find any support, uh, from any of the adults while you were in high school?

Uh, yeah, a lot, um, my theater teacher, Mr. Thornberg, he was really supportive.  Uh, pretty much the–

How did he– how did he help?

Like he was like my counselor?  Cuz I didn’t like going to my counselor?  Until I actually got another counselor.  Um, Ms. Roche. She works at– there too.  Because when it came to things like that, there was like– cuz my actual counselor, he was more on the religious side.  Like, he didn’t say anything bad to me!  He never did.  He like– I love talking to him too, but, he just like, I would tell him stuff, and he would, like, pray about it, and I’m just like, “I understand.  But I need you to speak to me.  Not tell me to go to church.”  So, Mr. Thornberg was my counselor for a while, then I went to Ms. Roche and that was my source of, like, “Okay.  I can do this.  I can survive through high school.”  Then after sophomore year, junior year, I was buying my own clothes, my parents were more accepting of what I was doing for myself.  Cuz as long as they didn’t buy the stuff for me, they were okay with it.  So, I got a lotta clothes that year, I will say that.  I got, like, five dresses, three pairs of heels, leggings, a lot of female stuff.  And then I was dressing like that at school, mind you, the school has a uniform, never got in any trouble for uniform policy, cuz they couldn’t do nothin’ to me.  Cuz I was lit.  But anyway.  Um.  And then my– we had a principal change, too, we went from Ms. Rodriguez to Mr. Diaz.  And Mr. Diaz was really friendly toward LGBT. Like, he would ask me like what could he do with the school to make it more friendly toward the LGBT population of kids.  And I was like, “You’re doing a pretty good job, like, you keep us safe, like, I feel safe knowing you’re the principal.  I would recommend that you, um, try to educate either teachers or more of the counselors about it?  Because they do have some training, but they don’t know enough to help somebody in my situation.”

[Annotation 3]

29:24

If you were to have a piece of advice, or if you were to create a training for those teachers, what would you have them do?

I don’t know!  Like, to be honest, I don’t exactly know like, what exactly they would do, but I would have them study up on, like, mostly our history.  Because our history teaches a lot about what we’ve gone through, and what we probably still probably go through a lot today, because of our new president, Trump, and his ban on trans people in the military.  And that’s just one thing.  And then there’s the whole bathroom thing that he took from us, like, trans kids in high schools– it’s up to the state to say whether they can go to the bathroom or not, and I’m just like, “That’s not helping.”  So, that.  And then I would probably have them talk to, like, one person from each category of the LGBT.  Even though there is a wide—very wide—umbrella for all of us, there are– there’s transgender, there’s bisexual, lesbian, gay, pan, and a whole bunch of other things. I’d have them just talk to them, and hear their experience, about what they’ve gone through, that way you know a little bit about each section of the LGBTQA+...XYZ.  And.  Like, I feel like just that alone would help them understand a little more about things they could say or should not say?  Because sometimes they’ll say words that they don’t know are offensive,  Like, one lady said, “trannie”  And it set me off.  And I was like, “Don’t. Say that!”  I didn’t curse at her or anything, but it’s like, I got upset.  

[Annotation 4]

So what– what happened?

She said the word “trannie”, like she asked me, “are you a trannie?”  And I was like–  

Who asked you the question?
I don’t, um, she was the– I don’t even know, she was a guest, because you know, at the high school, we would have some people who would come in at like lunch times and they’d set up tables.  And I was over there, and I was speaking to her, and she was like– she was looking at me a little weird, but like, not in like a mean was, she was just like– just tryna figure out what I was.  And she asked me, she was like, “Excuse me, are you a trannie?” And I was like, “Don’t say that.  That’s not nice, it’s offensive language and it makes me upset.” And she was like, “Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend, you’re just, like you’re really pretty.”  And I was just like, “Thank you, but then don’t do that.” And then she was like, “But then what words would I use for somebody in your situation?” I was just like, “Transgender. Like, are you a Transwoman.  Transman.”  And then I had to go into detail about which one was which, cuz she was like, “So are you a transman or a transwoman?  Because I don’t know which is which.” And I was like, “Put it this way: Identify me as what I look like, so, if I look like a girl, then I’m a transwoman. If the person is trans and they’re the opposite, they’re a transman.  So.”  And I had to explain to her that, and then she got me hooked up with this modeling agency that never came through, so.  That was that.  But I did end up, my last year at the high school, starting an LGBT support group!  Which was–thank the Lord that the principal was on my side.  Um.  It was really helpful for some of the kids there?  Cuz a lot of them were– they didn’t have...support at home.  So, me being an advocate is something that really made me happy. Because I could help others. Especially people that I consider family, cuz, like, the LGBTs, like, we are sort of a family.  Like, we may not be blood related, but I identify more with that than anything else.  It’s just–

What inspired you to create that group?  

Cuz I know all the things I went through?  In middle school, high school, and I just wanted– there was no safe place for me.  And I would like– then if there’s no safe place for me, then there’s no safe place for any of us.  Really.  The school’s supposed to be a safe place for all students but, no matter what happens, there’s really no safe place for LGBT kids cuz we still get bullied.  So, I spoke with a friend of mine, and we put together the idea, and we set up the group, and we started the group.  I was cofounder, I was president, until I had a situation where I got demoted, but I was still there, and um, after I graduated I still went back.  I actually got called back this year to talk to the choir because I was in choir for all four years. I was the only transgender girl in that school– and that was it, I was the only transgender girl in that school for my four years.  There were other trans girls before me, but they weren’t like me.  Like, they didn’t transition ‘outta nowhere’, like, I came into high school with a brush cut.  No hair.  By the time I got out, my hair was halfway down my back.  I looked completely different, and like, nobody– like, if you saw me– if you saw a side-by-side comparison, like you wouldn’t know it was me.  I looked completely different.  People would be like, “That was you? One, you look miserable in that picture.  Two,   you look like–a boy.” And I was like, “I know.”  And it was like– inspiring me to advocate was just like– I saw other transwomen doing it, like Laverne Cox, um, Caitlyn, but Caitlyn kinda came after I started transitioning, so, she’s not really an advocate, but it was just like, a huge thing, that somebody who was a veteran in, like, so much: TV show, Olympic star, that they finally did something for themselves, came out, and transitioned!  That was a big thing, and then there’s Jazz. She’s younger than me, but she’s a whole TV show!  So, and then her advocacy for the transgender community was a thing.  Just watching her was like, “This girl is putting her whole life on display.”  And that inspired me to just do what I do.  I’m going to Middlesex, for psychology.  And then I want to transfer to Rutgers for their Gender Studies program.  And I also wanna do Child Studies, cuz I wanna work with transgender youth.  Like, the kids– like, mostly teenagers, because– it’s hard to do, like, LGBT when you’re younger, cuz you don’t really know?  So, like, I wanna work with like high school kids, middle school kids, so that way I can, like, if they need anybody to talk to, I am there. Or somebody that knows something about their situation is there.  Cuz, no offense to anybody who’s not LGBT but they never really understand what we’re going through.  So, having somebody that understands, who will make them feel, like, at least somebody understands.  Better than nobody, or just– telling a friend, who’s still straight, so.  

[Editor’s note: Laverne Cox, Caitlyn Jenner, and Jazz Jennings are prominent transgender women]

[Annotation 5]

[Annotation 6}

37:05

So what’s your relationship now, like, with your family, with your group of friends?

Mmm. My group of friends, I don’t really have?  Like, it’s not like we don’t talk or anything, but, like, they’ve gone to other places, like, uh, Kayla, she’s in Montclair, Joyce [sp?] is in Virginia, and Lil, he’s doing his thing, he got two jobs, I don’t know if he’s going to college or not, but, he’s– he doin’ his thang.  And I’m just here.  I do have– I do have a hefty group of transgender friends.  There’s about five of us? Five or six.  And we’re, um, we used to go out a lot, but then now we’re just like spreading apart, because I’m moving to Perth Amboy, one of us is moving to Jersey City, the rest of us are just scattering around New Jersey, so we’re all gonna be scattered, so it’s like– we don’t talk a lot.  But my family, we’re– tighter than we used to be.  Cuz they understand that I am not cisgender.  I’m not their son, but I am being very lenient with my family, I’m not gonna lie, cuz they still do call me by my birth name?  And I still do answer.  But,  I do, from time to time, urge them to at least try– I never try to force anything on them?  But I’m like, “I know– this is not what you’re used to, and not what you want, but for me, at least try.”  And my mom tries to tell me, “What if somebody tries to hurt you?” and I’m like, “Put it this way. if I look like a complete girl, 24/7, and you call me ‘he’, or ‘him’, or my name, somebody who likes me on the street will find the urge to attack me on the street, because you wouldn’t say my correct name or pronoun.”  And I had to– she was like, “What!” She didn’t– she didn’t know what to do, it’s like she’s– she had to think about it, she was like, “I didn’t think of it that way.” I was like, “Yeah! You have to think of it, and other ways of people finding out, through, either me telling them or somebody else. You outing me in public could get me and you hurt.  So.  Think about it.”  My dad is a whole different story because my dad’s never really outed me in public.  And when he is, he just says, “Child.”  Like, as long as he’s neutral, I don’t care.  He’s like, “Yeah, this is my child, that’s my child, [unclear],” and he’ll say “they”, he’ll use, like, the pronouns for somebody who’s nonbinary.  Which is better than he, so,  he gettin’ somewhere.  My oldest brother’s in that stage.  My, um, youngest brother still calls me “he” sometimes, but, somebody does ask him about it and he does say I’m his “older sister”, so.  Most of my siblings do a lot for me.  My sister even bought me clothes.  At one point.  

You talked about, uh, earlier, you talked about your– you called them your ‘LGBT siblings’–

Yeah, um–

What are they, kind of– how have they been a part of your process?

They’ve been, like– when it came to coming out to family, they were the first people I told?  Especially my old– my sister who is a lesbian.  I told her first.  Cuz, at the time, I identified as gay, so.  That’s who I told first.  Then I told my sister who’s bisexual.  Then I told my sister who’s just really supportive.  And they all were like, “What do you want to be called?  Do you wanna– can we still call you ‘he’?  ‘Brother’?  And I was like– I wanna– more ‘she’, ‘her’, then I changed my name a couple of times. Went from my birth name to Mimi, from Mimi to Molly, then from Molly to Mariah.  And they kinda stuck with Mariah the most, cuz it was the most, like, “Okay, this is a normal name.”  Molly– it was like, “you’re addicting,” like the drug, but– I don’t like it.  Mimi– sounded like a drag queen: I don’t like it.  So, Mariah, was like– what they liked the most?  And I’m actually in the process of actually getting that changed, thank the Lord.  Took me foreva.  

So you’re working on a legal name change?

Yeah, a legal name change, and I’m–

How’s that process going?  

That process actually just started about two weeks ago. So, I had to fill out the forms and everything, get them submitted.  And I’m just waiting, right now, to hear back for when I go in for my court date, cuz I have to go in front of a judge.  So, I’m waiting for that.  And then usually there’s a couple extra fees, like– getting new birth certificate, new ID, new social security number, so.  Have to do all of that.  Then, hopefully, before I get my license, I will have my gender marker changed too. I can actually get that myself, so, yeah.  Yeah, that’s easier.  But, the most important thing for me is just like– cuz a lotta people ask, like, “Do you plan to get ‘The Surgery’,” or “Are you gonna get this or that,” and I’m like, “To be honest, as long as I’m happy with how I look, I don’t care.” And then they’re like, “Yeah, but what about– what do you wanna– surgically?” And I’m like, “To be honest, I’m just gonna get a breast augmentation. And probably a bit of facial feminization, and that’s about it.”  And it’s like, “So you’re not gonna get the?” And I’m like, “That’s none of ya business.  If I get it or do I not get it.  Answer this question: will you ever see if I do or I don’t? No. So leave it alone.”  And, like, my sisters, when it came to me transitioning, like, when they first saw me transitioned, well– dressed as a female.  They didn’t know who I was.  Like, legitimately, they didn’t– they be like, “Who?  Are you?”  And, like, they couldn’t believe their eyes that I was actually in my house, in my parent’s house, dressed as a female.  Cuz they were like, “(whispered) Did they see you yet?” And I’m like, “Yeah, they saw me get dressed, they saw me do my makeup, and errythang, so.  They know.”  And it’s like, “(whispered) Okay….”  They was terrified for me when I was younger, because, my parents were really– they weren’t abusive, but they were just like– not aware of how they were hurting me?  They would say things, they would do certain things– I think– I got in trouble one time for cutting– not cutting my hair enough.  I wouldn’t– I didn’t– I didn’t want my hair cut, but my mom was like, “You’re getting it cut.” So when I got it cut, I just said, “Take a little bit off”, like, I got it cut, just not a lot.  Cuz I didn’t want it.  And she got mad.  And I got in trouble.  And I had to get it cut again.  I was like– and I’d constantly be like, “Cant I just stay with my sister?  And live with my sister?”  My mom always said no, cuz, “It’s not safe,” and I was just like, “Okay.”  Then my oldest brother be like, “Nobody loves you like your parents do.” And I just be like, “Yeah, true, but this is bad for my mental state, if I’m constantly feeling like I’m trapped in this house, can’t do this, can’t do that.” My brother’s like, 10, and can stay out till 10:00, and I’m almost 15, had to be back in the house by 8:00.  Don’t make sense.  Not even 8:00!  Before it get dark.  And my younger brother can be outside ‘til god knows when, and not be in trouble.

[Annotation 7]

45:17

What do you think was the cause for the difference?

To be honest, I don’t exactly know.  Like, in my brain it was probably cuz, “He’s straight, he’s less likely to get beat up randomly because of who is, and I am.”  But, eventually it got evened out, then I got more privileges, because I got a key, now. The last three years I had a key and I was like, “I’m comin’ back in the house at 2:30 in the mornin!  Maybe 3:00, maybe 4:00.”  He had to be back in the house before dark cuz now he got a baby.  His baby is 5 months now?  She is my precious. She is my precious.  I am constantly holding her, changing her– I was in the hospital with her mother, uh, for four days.  Cuz she– we went in for a check up, they said, “You need to have this baby out now.” She was in labor for three days, and the fourth day, she gave birth.  Finally.  Cuz I was like, “I’m tired, I got work.” Sadly that day I went to work and I got fired.  But, eh. It was McDonalds, it wasn’t that bad, it wasn’t like I was working at, like, FedEx or something and got fired.  So that was that.  And then, to this day, I just, like– my brothers are always, like, my bodyguards.  Like if I go anywhere, my brothers, they’re just like really on top of everything.  I’ll go places with my little brother and he’ll just, like– he’ll stand right here, or he’ll just be mad close to me to make sure nobody try nothing stupid.  And I’m like, “Ain’t nobody gonna touch me.  I know I’m cute, but ain’t nobody gonna come over here. You good, G. Relax.”  And my sisters, they’re more or less, like– sometimes, actually, a lot of the time people forget that I’m transgender?  They’ll just think of me as a full-fledged female, and they’ll be like, “Why is your (gestures) so fat?”  And I’m just like, “Girl, did you not– did you forget?”  Or they’ll be like, “Girl, you flat chested!” and I’ll just be like, “Girl, did you forget?”  And they be like, “Oh!  I for– yeah, I’m sorry.”

Where do you see yourself going from here?

In like– in my transition?  Or–

In your life!
In my life, like, I actually just– hopefully, going to college.  Getting my associates degree, then bachelor, maybe master’s, cuz, that’s a lot of school, and I just finished school, and I dunno about all that school. But I just, like, as long as I can help somebody.  In any type of way. That’s where I wanna go.  I do have, um, a draft of a book that I am writing? That’s one thing– I have written, also, a couple of songs, was in the process of writing a show, uh, but, um, I couldn’t do that, cuz it was causing me to stress too much, so I had to put that on hold.  And. The money from the show was gonna go to the high school. To support my group, the LGBT group that I created, which I– actually, isn’t there anymore, it, uh, had to, uh, disappear, cuz there was nobody, headlining it, right, like they weren’t running it correctly, so they couldn’t have it, so, but the money was gonna go to there, and the choir in high school, because I was a choir student all four years of high school and we barely had money to do a lot of things, like, we didn’t have money for our teachers, really, we didn’t have money for a lot of things, so I was like, the money from this show is going towards that.  So they have something.  So basically it was gonna go 40, 50, and then I get 10. Cuz I need some profit of what’s being made, cuz I need money, I spent money.  But.  That was that.  And then I’ve recently been busy, just, working.  Family’s been a little on the rocks, cuz we all go through our mood swings, and everybody getting on my last nerve right now, but.  Family right now is good.  Other than that my mom doesn’t want me to move?  She doesn’t want me to be with my fiancé, she wants me to stay in the house.  She actually doesn’t believe that I’m getting married, like I told her, and she was like, “No you’re not.”  And I was like, “But the ring!”  (I’m not wearing it right now, but) “But the ring!” And she was like, “It’s just, just– you’re not getting married.”  And I was like, “Alright.  Whateva you say.  Still doing everything else the way that– dress, flower girls, groomsmen.         

50:54

So how– how– we didn’t really talk much about your relationship, like, how did you meet?  How did that evolve?
Well, me and my fiancé, we met in my senior year of high school, actually?  But, at that time we, like, weren’t dating.  We were just friends.  And then after, like, after my grandma died, I think two months after, or so, in November?  We started dating.  And, um.  We have– officially we technically we started talking, which he says– until May, but it was official in May on the 27th, which is actually the date of the wedding, because I wanted to keep it the same day, cuz I didn’t want to have dates– the day that we started talking and the day that we actually started dating, cuz he was a mess. He’s, like, the funniest guy in the world to me. Like he constantly makes me laugh.  Um.  He, um, we started talking– we became friends because he saw me at the– cuz he doesn’t live here, so.  He came up here for a training, and he went to get something to eat, and I was in the same place.  And he looked at me - he was like, “You’re cute.”  And I was like, “Thank you.”  And then he was, low key, following me, after that. He went everywhere I went except the bathroom.  And, um.  I saw him again, I think, the day after that at the mall, with his friends.  And he was like– and then he pointed at me, and I was like, “Me?” And he like, “Yeah you.”  And he was like, “What’s your name?  Last time I saw you I didn’t get your name.”  And I was like, “It’s Mariah.”  And he was like, “My name’s Jamal” and he was like, “Can I get your number?”  And I was like, “Who asks you for their number these days?  If you’re not already friends, or you’re not, yeah– ” And I said no at first, I wouldn’t give him my number until I got to know him more, and so, that whole day at the mall, he was just talking to me, hanging out with me, the whole time, and at the end of the day I gave him my number. And we started talking.  We were friends– sorta, kinda friends.  And then, once, like, February hit, it got, like, really serious?  Cuz he would get mad if I was with somebody else.  Like, if I was just hanging out with a guy.  And that’s how I knew, like, this probably isn’t just my friend. So I asked him, around March, “Jamal, are we dating?” And he was like, “No, no no no no, no no no no no no no.  We’re just talking.”  And I was like, “Okay, but you have to remember that–” because I had told him I was transgender.  And he was like, “That’s fine.  We can be friends.” And then he still, obviously, had feelings for me, so. Came May 27th, he asked me to be his girlfriend, and I was like, “Are you sure? Are you positive you wanna go down this road? Because a lotta guys can’t, one, can’t deal with me in general, because I’m just extra, and, two, because they don’t know– they get confused, they’re just like, “Am I straight?  Am I gay?  Am I curiou– what am I?” So I had to explain to him that being with me wasn’t making him anything other than straight.  If he wanted to identify anything other than straight, that’s on him. But, I put it this, in terms, I was like, “Do I look like a guy to you?” He said, “No.”  “So, alright then. Then you’re straight.  Because you’re attracted to the image of a woman.”  And he was like, “Since you put it that way, you’re my girlfriend.”  And then ever since he’s just been a hot mess.  And then we actually– before he proposed to me, he broke up with me. I think it was a ploy. I don’t know exactly, but he broke up with me because I was talking to a friend of mine and he–and the friend of mine actually liked me before, and so he got jealous, he was like, “I can’t trust you, so, bye bye.”  And like a week or two later, he came up, he was like, “Yeah, I came to check on you, see how you was doin’, cuz I know after, like, the whole situation, we was rocky, and then we broke up.” And I was talking about how everything was goin’, how I got a new job at David’s Bridal, and he was like, “Oh, you got a job at David’s Bridal?” Cuz I had told him earlier– actually, no, the day he broke up with me, or like, the day before– or two days before, I had got a call from David’s Bridal, and they told me to come in for an interview.  And then he was like, “So you know how you’re selling wedding dresses, right?  And you’re helping all these ladies with their weddings?”  And I was like, “Yeah….” And then his friends pulled up.  Mind you, him and his friends don’t live in New Jersey, they live in PA, so I’m like, “What are you guys doing here?  You don’t live here.”  And I was like, “Jamal, what is you doin’?”  He was like, “Nothin’ they just came to support me.” And I was like, “For what?” He was like, “Because, like, you’re selling wedding dresses, you’re helping these people with their weddings, somebody’s gonna be helping you with yours.”  And I’m like, “I don’t have one.” And he was like, “You do now.”  And I was like “What do you mean?”  And his friend handed him the box, with the ring in it, and then he went, and he proposed, and I was like, “Oh my goodness.”  I started crying, and then I was like, “Are you– please tell me you’re joking?” Cuz I was scared.  Cuz I’m like, I’m 20.  Everybody think that when y’all 20 y’all supposed to be at the club.  And I’m just like, “I don’t like the club.”  If I go to the club, I want to go with my man. Still to this day I haven’t gone to the club.  But, I said yes. And then he put the ring on, and then he like, legit, bridal-carried me to the car, and was like, “We leavin’, it’s time to go to the restaurant.” Cuz apparently he made arrangements for a restaurant dinner.  And I was like, “I ain’t dressed for no restaurant!”  He was like, “I’ll buy you an outfit.”  And I was like, “Okay.”  And he bought me this nice black dress with these black heels. And I was like, “Okay, I’m cute.  I can go to the restaurant.  And then, he just– he’s a giant nerd.  Like.  We’re both stuck on comics, superheroes, video games– that’s like all we do, I think the last– last weekend when I was with him, and me and his friends were just constantly playing video games. The whole time. The whole time.  And he was like, “See, y’all got to leave.  It’s 2:00 in the morning, and we got to sleep.”  And, he and me ain’t sleep, but we had to sleep, and I was like, “Okay.”  So his friends left, and then I came home the next day, tired as all life, and that was– that’s pretty much our relationship.  He’s like my other half.  Like, that’s all I do.  Like, if I’m not texting him, I’m with my DK sister, cuz I have one friend who I actually call “my sister”, because I’ve known her since the seventh grade, we’ve– I think we’ve had one argument?  Like, out of our whole friendship?  And it was over a boy.  Which was sad.  But it wasn’t like we both liked him, it was just that she was– she was– (her boyfriend), and she was obsessed with him.  Like, I’d be on the phone with her, and the first thing she say is, “Kenny just left the house.” Or “My boyfriend just left the house,” and I’m just like, “I don’t care!  I don’t care!  I’m happy you get a man, I’m happy you gettin’ yo life, but I called you for a reason, I didn’t call you to talk about him.”  Or she’ll call me to tell me he just left the house, or what they did, and I’m just like, “Look, you got one more time, and I will block yo’ number.”  And she got highly upset, and started telling me off, and I was like, “Look. I ain’t got the time.  So until you can separate yo’ neck from his hip, I’m gonna need you to leave me alone.”  And then her mom called wanting to know what was goin’ on, and she was like, “Family meeting at my house now.”  So she had to speak to us about it, and I was like, “Look.  I’m tired of her talking about her boyfriend constantly, tired of her doing this this and that, and her ignoring everybody because her boyfriend is around, it’s annoying.” And she just like, “Oh, you jealous.” And I’m just like, “No, I’m not jealous.” Put it this way, if your best friend ended up doing x, y and the third, and z, and you’re like, “We were supposed to spend time together.” But no, you wanna leave me and go spend time with your boyfriend. Or, my birthday comes up, and you’re just like, “That’s my anniversary,” not like, the year, but like, the month? Cuz y’all people do that. She was just like, “That’s my anniversary, I can’t.’  And I’m just like, “My birthday is more important than your anniversary.  I’ve known you since the seventh grade.  We are sophomores in high school.  If you don’t come to my birthday party–”  She didn’t come. That’s why I was upset.  And I was highly upset. And I was like, “You don’t love me no mo’.”  And she was constantly getting my birthday mixed up with his, and I was like, “Don’t do that.  His birthday’s a month after mine.  Don’t do that.”  It was a mess.

1:00:44

One kind of seemingly random question to ask you, but– you talked about– you talked about clothing a lot, as being an important, kind of– it was an important thing to you to be able to dress the way you wanted to dress.

Yeah.

And I was wondering, like, if there was any, like, do you remember that first moment or like that first time when you were able to dress in a way where you really felt like it was an expression of who you were really were inside?
Yeah, I do.  I was, um, I was 17?  And my sister bought me– well she didn’t buy it for me, but she bought a dress.  And it didn’t fit her.  But, she was like, “Try this one.”  And I was like, “I’m gonna get in trouble.”  And she was like, “You’re at my house. Your parents are all the way in New Brunswick.  They ain’t gonna know.”  So, I tried it on, and it fit, and I saw the way it fit, and the way it felt, it was just– it felt right.  It felt like I was meant to be in a dress.  So, I started– I actually started crying, and she was like, “What’s wrong?!  Do you hate it?”  And I was like, “No. It just feels so right to be in a dress.”  And she was like, “Oh, don’t do that, you scared me.”  I’m just like, “You don’t understand.  I can’t do this at home.”  So every time I would go to my sister’s house, they would have pre-set outfits for me to wear.  I would never bring clothes. Well, I would wear clothes there, but I would never bring clothes to sleep in or anything, or to wear the next day, because they’d have it for me.  And then– the first time I wore, like, female underwear, I was just like, “This is just– I feel free.  I feel feminine.”  And then nobody knew for a good month until my mom walked in on me, she was like, “Those is pony underwear.  Why is you wearin’ them?”  I was like, “They mine. You gonna deal with it today. You ain’t buyin’ them.  Bye.” And clothing, I guess, for– it depends on who you are, but for me, it was a big part of my transition because it was a way for me to express who I was without actually having to say anything, cuz everybody was constantly asking me, “Oh, are you gonna do this?  Or are you gonna do that?”  And I was just like, “Look at me! Just look at me, and you’ll know what’s going on. Cuz I talk a lot.  So, if you ask me, you gonna get, like, a two hour explanation. So leave me alone.”  

[Annotation 8]

Um, we’re approaching– we’re a little bit over an hour now, so I don’t wanna, you know, I don’t wanna take too much time, or, we can take more time on another day, if you wanna come back and say anything, but, is there anything that I haven’t asked you, or anything that you thought you were gonna be talking about today that you didn’t get a chance to?

Mmm, no.  Not really.  Um.  I guess one thing I haven’t covered is, like, I’m not fully, like, what’s the word– medically transitioned?  Obviously?  But, I would like to be?  It’s just– the way money flow is set up right now?  I ain’t got money for all that?  Cuz, transitioning costs money.  A lot of people, like– cuz a lotta guys that would talk to me, like, they would try to get with me– just like, “When you getting surgery?”  And I was just like, “If you got $24,000 right now, I’ll get it tomorrow. But you don’t. So leave me alone. I’ll get it when I have the money.”  Or they be like, “Do you have it?  Do you not have it?” I be like, “Have what?” They just like, “You know,” and they’ll send, like, the emoji, and I’m just like, “You read the profile. You seen the pictures. You know what’s goin’ on in my life enough to know that– NO, I didn’t get surgery.  Leave me alone.  It says ‘pre-op transgendered woman’ on everything I have. Leave me alone.” Dating for me has been a hustle. Like, until I met Jamal, everybody was giving [unclear].  Cuz they be like– I would– since I was transgender, or, at the time, before I identified as transgender, I identified as male, obviously, but guys would still see me as female because I was so freakin’ feminine. And I looked like a girl. Before I even started transitioning I was getting mistaken for a girl. Which was sad. Well, not sad, but it was funny.  And they would cheat since I didn’t have what they wanted, down below, I would get cheated on.  By the guy I’m with, with a girl.  He’d share me with a girl, or a guy, or just– somebody other than me, cuz I was like, “I’m not doing anything until we hit, like, four months. Or three months.”  And they was just like, “Never mind.”  They would say, “Okay, I’ll wait,” and then we’d get to two months, and they’d be like, “Do something for me now,” and I’d be just, like, “No, no no.” Like, I think, I lost my virginity in February? Of this year?!  And everybody like, “You? You just lost it? And you look like that? W– Who did it?  Like, why didn’t you lose it earlier?”  And I was just like, “Cuz– these niggas be playin’ games.”  And I didn’t lost it to one of my friends, but it don’t matter.  As long as I know he was gonna be there for me after?  And that we would still talk, this that and the third, I was good.  And now I have Jamal!  And now I’m lit!  That’s it.  

Alright, well I think we’re gonna stop the recorder now, um, we can kind of, like, finish up, part of our conversation, or anything else, anything else you feel is left unsaid?

No, no.

Alright.  Great.