Nancy Gale recounts her adolescence and describes what it is like to raise a transgender child. She discusses how she has advocated for her child and how hindsight has helped her see key moments in her child’s gender expression.
“What I put in her baby book when she was born was, uh, it said, ‘What do you want for your child,’ and I said I just want, at the time was him, ‘I just want him to be happy when he grows up,’ and that’s still all I want.”
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TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by John Keller
New Brunswick, New Jersey
June 27, 2019
Transcription by Gloria Cardona
(00:00:00)
This is John Keller with coLAB Arts and the Rutgers Oral History Archive. It is Thursday [clears throat], excuse me, Thursday June 27th, 2019. We are located at 9 Bayard St., coLAB Arts’ main office, and, uh, we are here with–
Nancy Gale
Okay, and Nancy where do you reside?
I live in Somerset
Great. And, uh, for the record, uh, what is your date of birth?
8/26/1953
We can kind of just start at the beginning. Where were you born?
Uh, Jersey girl born and raised, um, hospital’s actually in Summit but I grew up in Scotch Plains, um, lived there ‘til I was 28 and got married and moved to New Brunswick for a year, and then we bought a house in Somerset and I’ve been there ever since so thirty– six-some years.
Um, when you were born, were you– what was your family structure like?
I am the fourth of six kids and, um, my mom was a stay at home housewife, my dad was a college president for– in New York City worked for the, uh, in fact he founded the college of insurance, it was called at the time, um, which has now been incorporated by Saint John University, so he was a commuter for forever forty-some years and, um, I had–
So is that from Scotch Plains?
Yeah, well he left from Fanwood, but yeah and, um, you know, it was a happy childhood, we’re still very close, all my brothers and sisters, and we get along really well. I’m the only one left in New Jersey though, everybody’s fled the state! Um, and it’s just me now [chuckles] um–
Where are all your parents originally from in New Jersey, where their families–
(00:02:08)
My dad is from New Jersey, in fact his family goes all the way to the 1600s and, um, we’ve traced it back, you know, a long way, um, but they originated in Massachusetts, in fact, um, his relatives founded the Taunton Iron Works which is still in effect today and, um– I mean it’s a historical site, it’s not running anymore. And, my mom is from Chicago, um, they met, uh, during WWII in Chicago at the USO so it was, um, kind of a– no, I guess they didn’t get married until after the war, obviously, but it was a wartime romance, uh, and then she moved out to New Jersey and– that’s it.
Uh, when you were, uh, a kid were you all living in the house or an apartment or–
Yeah, we had, uh, my– before I was born they lived in Hillside, um, and then I think I was the first one to be born on Scotch Plains, if I’m not mistaken, and, um, we lived right behind a school so I, you know, walked to school everyday and came home for lunch and it was a great neighborhood, you know, it was the olden days when you used to be outside all the time and wouldn’t come in ‘til the lights came on. Um, and then, uh, I think I was in– sixth grade? When we moved across town to a larger house with six kids I– you know, got a little cramped in the other house and, uh, but still went to the same– by then I was in Middle School and went through High School there, Scotch Plains Fanwood High School and, um, I stayed there until I got married when I was 28, um, after college I worked for Eastern Airlines for twelve and a half years in, uh, Woodbridge– they had the largest reservation in the world there, and, um, then I worked for the computer part of Eastern Airline, it was called System 1, and, um, it’s now called Amadeus and I’m still working there thirty-some years later and I’m retiring in January and I’m super excited! [chuckles]
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Um, what was the– what was kinda like the age range with your siblings, like what was the–
My brother is ten years older than us, than me, he’s the oldest and my younger sister is five years younger so there’s a– fifteen year difference between the oldest and the youngest and, um, I– so my big brother, he’s actually my half-brother, my dad was married before he met my mom and his wife– his first wife died and he was only three years old when they got married but I remember it was fairly traumatic when I found out he wasn’t my real brother. I must’ve been about five years old, six years old maybe, um, they, um, so he was– because he was ten years older than me he was off in high school and college and then he got married and so, you know, it wasn’t– we weren’t quite as close as of course my next two sisters, and then my brother and younger sister so, um, but–
(00:05:47)
today we get together every couple of years for family reunion or when both my parents died separately, you know, unfortunately, that's the last time we got together, was when my mom’s funeral but, uh, it’s always fun when we have our family reunion so, try and keep in touch as much as possible
What was it like being eight people living under one roof?
Well it was probably at the most seven, well I guess my brother came home too. I don’t know we– we fought, I mean like anybody fights, but it was uh, I– I didn’t notice it. I didn’t think it was crowded or– I mean I share rooms all my life until everybody got up and moved or went to college or, you know, got married, or whatever but that was just the way it was and– and it was fine, I can remember yeah– yeah we would have fights over stupid things, um, but, you know, it was never mean and– and we’ve never gotten to the point where some families unfortunately, you know, they don’t even talk to their siblings and, um, I feel very lucky, very blessed that we’re still good friends and we get in touch and do things together and visit each other and, um, spend time together when we can, but I now have my one brother– oldest brother lives in Ohio. Another brother is in Virginia Beach, I have a sister in Montana, two sisters in California so we’re really spread out and it’s not really easy to get together.
Was there, uh, any sort of extended family when you were growing up or–
No my– my– that was the thing about my dad, he didn’t have any relatives at all that were alive except for his aunt, which was my great aunt, and she lived in Middletown and was a real fancy lady or I remember she always wore tons of custom jewelry and furs and had, three or four dogs at a time and it was always fu– she was a great cook, um, and it was fun for have her come visit us, that was it. And, um, um, and her husband, Uncle John, looked like Mr. Clean. We use to [chuckles] the bald head we’d– we’d always tease him and make ‘em wear an earring, one earring but, uh, in my mom’s family was, um, still back in Chicago and so I got– I didn’t have any cousins except for two in Chicago but they were older and we were never very close so it was always just– just our family unit.
Did you have, when you were growing up as a kid, were your siblings your social group or did you have any friends either through school or–
Oh I always had lots of friends so, um, I mean yeah, we did stuff together as brother and sister but, um, I don’t think we played together that much. I had– my best friend lived right next door so, she was six months younger than me but a year behind in grade and for– for e– e–everyday we’d–
(00:09:00)
after school we’d play– play that’s what we did and, um, I was close to her even– even when we moved and then her family moved to Chicago and, um, still was in touch with her throughout college and after school and, um, but unfortunately she passed away of breast cancer, um, couple years ago, but I’ve– you know– did– have a lot of friends all throughout school and I still have friends from high school that we see each other every once in a blue moon but we keep in touch and just one friend from college and, um, now I’m in a women’s club and I have a lot of friends there so I’m always out there doing stuff and my brothers and sisters had their own friends too they were always doing stuff so.
You had said the school that you had– the elementary school was like right around the corner from where you lived–
The grammar school yeah.
Grammar school, do you remember what it was like starting school or being in school as a little kid on be in school–
Uh, the only thing I remember probably– I remember kindergarten taking naps, we got to bring a– a towel or something to lay on and, um, it was years later I read my report card from–from kindergarten and it said Nancy must learn to use a straw [laughs]. And I thought what a stupid thing for a teacher to write, you know, um, and, um, I was always pretty talkative so I used to get in trouble for talking and, um, my second year teacher’d called up my mother and said, “Nancy just talks too much she’s a distraction,” and my mother I thought would be mad at me but she wasn’t and she said to the teacher, “Well you just don’t challenge her enough, she’s bored so, you need to, you know, make sure you keep her busy or something.” But there throughout school I would have to, every now and then, I’d have to, you know, stand outside the classroom because I was busy visiting with my neighbors [chuckles] or I’d have to– I remember one year I had to write a paper on peanuts. I had to give a three page paper because I was talking so, and I still talk a lot to this day obviously.
[They both laugh]
I’m sociable, what can I say.
Do you remember were there any subjects in particular that you liked or–
(00:11:30)
I was a good student I think, uh, acting– I was very much into performing so, um, in fact in sixth grade we– we put on the Wizard of Oz and I was the Wicked Witch of the West so I had the starring role [laughs]. I remember melting. I still remember some lines from that play and we– we did it for the little kid, you know, the little kid, you know, the kindergarteners and first, second, third graders and they all wrote thank you notes or– or, you know, drew pictures that said, “Thank you my favorite was the Wicked Witch” and it really made me feel good but, um, and then all through junior high school and high school I was in drama club and, um, I would have loved to have done that but I didn’t have the guts to do it as– I’m not a– I would have been a character actor I’m sure but [laughs] I’m not the leading [stutters] leading star type, it was a– it was fun.
What– so, um, when you transitioned to middle school was it a different school?
Yeah, yeah, it was called junior high then rather than– rather than middle school, but yeah, that was tough, you know, girls are so clique-y and– and even though you have– you could have some friends one week and then the next week they turn on you and I– I just, you know, seventh grade was, ugh, it’s just a– seventh and eighth, um, and actually my junior high was seventh, eighth and ninth and high school was tenth, eleventh, twelfth, so it was, um, you know I– I– I can remember liking school but there were times when it was just devastating you know, um–
[unclear]
Well just, I remember once I was friends with some people and we were gonna have sl– one girl was having a slumber party and then somebody made some comment, I have no idea what it was, and I guess I agreed and all of a sudden everybody thought how it was a terrible thing for me to say whatever it was, and then the next day the girl said, “Oh well we’ve cancelled the slumber party,” and they didn’t cancel the slumber party they just uninvited me or she did and I remember going home and my mother– I told my mother– and she was why? She knew that wasn’t the case but I wouldn’t tell her anything and just, “No, no it was cancelled it was cancelled,” but, you know, who– who likes to be rejected [laughs]. And I’m sure later it was, you know, a couple weeks later, everything was fine I mean I don’t really remember that’s just the way it was in those years. But once I got to high school, well even in ninth grade I can’t remember, when you’re top of the– when you’re the oldest one in the school. I had got involved in the high school newspaper, again the drama club and so I had my friends and we were– we kept ourselves busy and had a lot of fun so, I liked high school, a lot of people didn’t but I did.
Do you have, uh, do you have any memories of reflections on that period of time, like puberty set in like, you know, things were changing, you know–
(00:14:50)
Well. I do remember that I didn’t really pay much attention to my body but, um, I had a friend that said, you know, in ninth grade when they had the senior civil, not the senior, but the ninth grade superlatives and it was like, uh, you know, as smart as so and so and they took all these people and put ‘em together to make the perfect person and, um, it was “body like Nancy,” so I– you know, and I– we had also belong to a swim club and I was on the swim team forever, I mean until high school, um, and so keeping in shape everyday, you know, we’d swim a mile in swim practice every day and then there were races and I always did pretty good but I dropped out when we got into high school, ‘cause by then people were taking it too seriously and I remember I was a really good butterfly, s– ah–swimmer and I had a friend that actually did it a lot and she actually went to the Y in the winter and we wouldn’t do that, you know, to me it was just fun and she had really big shoulders and I said, I don’t want really big shoulders, and so I– I wasn’t– and our high school didn’t have a swim team so I couldn’t even, unless I went to the Y over in Westfield. I wouldn’t have even been involved and I didn’t want to take it that seriously, I– you know, I guess fairly athletic as far as I was concerned, sooo it was, um, you know, I didn’t really [in a creaky voice] have boyfriend or anything but I felt pretty good about myself. It was always like well just wait till I get to college and sure enough [giggles] that’s when I “blossomed” my mother said so.
Was there an expectation in your family that you would go to school?
Oh yeah, my father put all six of us through college. I mean he was a college president, so education, he had a doctor’s degree, in a– in education and it was very very important to both my parents and my mother kept saying she was the only one in the family that didn’t have a college degree, but I’ll tell you she was one of the wisest people I’ve ever met and she’s very well educated. She would read the encyclopedia– she wanted to learn and would have loved to have gone to college but she was a teen in the depression and, you know, they just didn't have the money and, um, but she always made– she was self educated and so, um, and because of my father’s job, um, that he– it was because of insurances involved he had, you know, at least– I don’t know, not degrees but there’s certain levels you obtain in insurance and they had insurance trips all over– you know, it was always conventions all over the world so my parent were both very well traveled and, um, so that was important to them and I don’t think any of us didn’t want to go to school, my older brother did go to Rutgers for a year and partied too much [giggles] and failed the first year so he then was shipped off to a college in, uh, uh– Ohio but that’s where he met his wife and he’s lived there ever since so it worked out okay for him.
When you were in high school did you start developing any specific kind of interests in terms of academics or in terms of other extracurriculars outside of, you know, sports or swimming?
(00:18:22)
Um, yeah I would– like I said, I was on the school newspaper so we were very much involved in, um, uh, you know, I was assistant copy editor and I’m still Facebook friends with my boss who was the copy editor and we spend a lot of time, you know, back then you had to lay out the newspaper with an exacto knife and it was not– there were no computers and the stories had to be written and it was a lot involved in that so I thought about journalism but I– I didn't– I didn’t– I don't know why I didn’t go into that, um, uh, so there was that and between that and the drama club those were my extra curricular activities, and then I worked at the YMCA day camp during summers and on the weekend I had this program called Grey Y at the Y and it was kids that would come in and play basketball and they just needed some people, some, uh, older kids to come and watch them in the afternoon and I decided I liked working with the little kids, especially the summer camp, it was up in the Watchung mountains that was– that was fun and, uh, I liked the little kids so I decided to major in child development at college and that’s what I did although I never did anything with it but that started a turn of events and I started working for Eastern and that’s how I got into the travel business so.
Where did you wind up going to school, did you go to school–
I went to Ohio University for two years and then, um, I transferred to University of Delaware. My second year was kind of rough and that’s when I decided I wanted to go closer to home and, um, I mean I just– my roommate and I didn’t get along anymore and I wasn’t super happy there, although that was at the beginning and by the end of the year I was sorry I was leaving but I had already applied to come and it worked out fine because I met my husband at University of Delaware and, you know, we’ve been together ever since, you know, fate.
What was– you had mentioned that you had blossomed in college, what is– what did you have going on?
Well, let’s just say I cut loose [giggles] I was very conservative in High School and I’m not gonna say goodie-two-shoes but, you know, I– I– I didn’t– we didn’t– my friends and we didn’t drink or party or anything like that we just got together, played cards, and did play games or whatever. I don’t even remember what we did but we were happy and, uh, so then when we got to school I kinda– this is anonymous right [laughs], I experimented with a lot of different things and, you know, just my sister said, how did she put it. um, became a wild woman or something, but, uh, you know, it was just what kids did in college back in the 70s so I guess they still do it, and, you know, I’m not in college anymore but I’m sure that’s what they did, everybody, um, but I, uh, you know, had, uh, lots of friends and, uh, we just did what kids do in college besides go to school. I was always very good going to class though, I feel, I would never think to cut school, because I
(00:22:13)
knew that, I had to go in order to get, you know, to pass the course because if I didn't my father would kill me [chuckles]. Um, I mean and it wasn’t just my father, it’s me, I wanted to– to get a lot out of it, I mean yeah there were times that we didn’t, I didn’t, once in a while didn’t go but I always took advantage of what was being offered, I knew that it cost money and it was my– for my benefit anyway, I– we’ve always tried to please my folks with good grades and, you know, I wasn’t gonna flunk out but I still– what I would do is, I would do my work and then I would reward myself so I’d say, “If I can just get this paper done then I can go party with my friends tonight,” and that’s what we did so.
Did you– were you going out or were you kind of staying on campus or?
Yeah, well Ohio University was out in the middle of nowhere and I mean Athens, they headed downtown and, um, you know, it was– it’s funny because I see that water bottle over there and it says Deer Park, ah, no that was Delaware, there was a place called the Deer Park, that was the hangout bar, but we would– Ohio had what it was called 3.2 beer, ugh, it was awful but you only had to be 18 for that and you had to be 21 for the regular beer and, you know, but my roommate always managed, she was from New Jersey also, um, but she always managed to get hold of a bottle of something, and I made a few mistakes like bottle screwdriver and I, to this day, I would not drink tequi– tequila, I hate tequila because it reminds me of an awful time in school but, yeah we stayed real close, um, but I have friends from a lot of different places that lived in Ohio and I would go home with them sometimes for the weekend, um, but there was always something to do on the weekend. And then when I got to Delaware again, that was, uh, it’s not– eh– you’re not in a city, you’re in a town, and everybody’s pretty much– I mean there were a lot of commuters, but those of us that were from out of state or not local, you know, we always found stuff to do on the weeknd and my boyfriend, who is now my husband, lived in the room next door, so it was very convenient and we were together so.
When did you meet, how did you meet?
[chuckles] Um, I think the first day I moved in I had, ah, I was– because I transferred, drinking age in Delaware was 20 and I’d gotten– one of my– we lived in the, uh– the, um, dorms were set up like a motel, where the entrances were outside, there was no central hall but they were in quads or whatever, so there were four, no I guess there were [counts] one, two, three, four, six rooms around a central bathroom and they would all be female or male but then next door would be female or male wall in my case, my husband lived right next door, and the very first day I had a bottle of wine I guess, that my friend and I were gonna drink, but I didn't have a corkscrew so I knocked on the door and I was like, “Do you have a corkscrew?” and that was it [laughs]. So– that’s how we met, with a bottle of wine, which he didn't drink, but I did.
(00:25:47)
Did you start dating immediately?
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I mean! We were just friends first, for quite a while, because I had a boyfriend back in Ohio at that time, so for the first year, you know, like I said, at the end of my junior– I mean my sophomore year, I was sorry that I was transferring because I had this other boyfriend and he was from Ohio, so, but then I started dating Tom in– in Delaware, and at Christmas time, the boyfriend from Ohio came to visit me and I had to tell him that, I [laughs] you know, I had a– here he came to visit me and I had to dump ‘em, you know, it was not a good scene, I felt– Bad about it. He was a nice guy but oh well, bird in the hand right, [laughs] so.
While you were in college what did you have expectations of after college or–
Yeah, I planned to, um, get– I– I didn’t want to be a preschool teacher. I wanted to get, uh, uh, my Masters in social work. I was going to– when I came home from school the plan was to get my Master’s at Rutgers and work part time in Eastern Airlines and the part-time became full time and it paid so well at the time and I really liked it and I said screw my masters, I’m gonna stay here, and I worked there for twelve years and, um, until, well, I left the year before they went out of business, you know I– I went to work for the computer division and, um, there’s a good thing I did.
What was the work at Eastern Airlines
Uh, reservations but that was, uh, I– I mean I started out there, I– I worked in a lot of different departments, um, I was, uh, what they called an understudy which was an assistant supervisor, and I did quality control and I did training and I did a lot of different things there everything that pretty, much that you could do, I wanted to do and, you know, I wasn’t stupid so they [chuckles], you know, they always let me do, or I– if I asked to do something or apply for a job or something that was pretty much that I could do it after a while, I mean and when you’re there twelve years but it’s funny, just this weekend, we had and Eastern Airline reservation, uh, reunion and now we left in ‘89. I guess I left and the company went out of business in 1990 and we’re still meeting for reunion so, some of these people, um, I've known forever and I only see once a year at the reunion but we’re still really close ‘cause people love working for that company and it was a great company to work for they just had terrible management Frank Borman killed us [chuckles] but, it was fun while it lasted,
Were you and your husband dating throughout this entire time?
(00:29:00)
Yeah, um, so, he still lived in Delaware after I graduated and I moved back to New Jersey and we dated for ten years, we were engaged for two, it was [laughs], yeah, a long time before– that’s why I was 28 when I got married even though I’d known him since I was 20 I guess and, um, it was, uh, yeah I guess it was only eight years rather than ten, but regardless, it took a while to actually make plans and decide, because we didn't know if he was gonna stay there or come here or– I didn’t want to give up my job because it was a great job and I– I liked it and it paid pretty well at the time so, um, yes. And then he, when we got married, he moved here.
And where did you move to?
New Brunswick for one year. My girlfriend owned a home and, uh, she rented it out, and we had, uh, it was a two-family house and we had the bottom floor for a year and then we looked for our own place. And at that time it was hard to get a mortgage. Interest rates were really, I mean they were, ten percent was a good deal, now they’re at two percent ,right? And, uh, interest, for, uh, mortgage, I remember we slept overnight in the bank parking lot in order to get in line the next day to get the mortgage to buy the house and it was like, you know, being in line for concert tickets or something, so–
At around what time was it?
This was in, we got married in ‘82 so it was ‘83, I guess, when we did it and now when I think back, uh, you know interest rates, I don’t know what they are but they’re certainly not ten and eleven. At the time they were really high and for us to get ten percent that was a really good deal. So, um, oh, um, we did buy the house in Somerset, and it was supposed to be a starter house but it’s been a forever house, and I don’t know what we’re gonna do once I retire if we’ll move or, I don’t know, we’ll stay in the area probably, I guess for a while at least.
So what was early married life like?
Uh, well, there was probably, lets see, Alison was born in, ‘91 so, nine years with no kids and that was our choice, um, and I don’t really remember a whole lot, other than we were happy and, uh, it was fine, um, Tom was working I guess, he was working in construction at that time and, um– It was kinda, now that I think back, I mean we did travel because I was working for the airlines so we got to go places for free, pretty much, a lot of them, and that was nice, but, um, I always wanted to have kids and it was like, well we’re not ready yet and I– it’s like Tommy we’re never gonna be ready, so finally we just stopped preventing it, and boom, I had the first one so, and then, I really remember a lot more after they were born because I guess, it just makes it, you know, there’s more memorable things, it wasn’t just the two of us anymore, so.
(00:32:38)
What was it like becoming a mom?
Oh I– I loved being pregnant first of all and, uh, I loved being home but then I had to go back to work and at that point I was making more money than my husband was so I was the one to go back to work and Tom stayed home with the kids and he became a stay at home dad for many many many years and I had to work and it was always a little bit of resentment there but that’s the way it was. I mean, you know, people have to do what they have to do, but I mean it wasn’t like I was gone all the time. I mean, you know, like, today if you had a mom home and a dad away it would be the same thing. It's just different roles, and what difference does it make? But, like I said, I made more money so I was the one to go back. But, it was fun like in the younger years and we got real involved with the schools, you know, as the kids were getting involved, and that’s where– I guess, I– I don’t even remember– Before the kids were born I don’t even remember who our friends were. It was after I was born it was all our friends’ parents, I mean our–the kids’ friends’ parents and those are the ones I– to this day I’m still friends with a lot of them and our kids are grown and gone, but, um, uh, you know–
How many kids do you have?
Two.
And what are their age difference?
Um, my first daughter is, uh, twenties, born in ‘91, twenty– eight? Thank you. And then my second daughter, who was born male, is, um, uh, there’s a five year difference so twenty, three, right? [counts] three, four, five, six, seven, yes. [chuckles] and, um, that was it, we– we really– two was fine.
What was it like having, you know, when you had the kids around or, you know, did you take vacations or trips?
Yeah, yeah, we still traveled of course, you know, like I said, working for the airlines, but most of the time, we went to visit relatives and because they were all over the place it was always someplace fun [chuckles]. And Tom’s family is from, well, his father worked for Scott paper and they moved a lot when he was young but they wound up in Delaware and, um, so his brothers and sisters, he’s also from a family of six kids, and, um, they– my daughter is the oldest of all the cousins and, um, Sam, who is my second daughter, born male, was the first boy to be born, at
(00:35:52)
the time, or, male gender, and, um, they have, uh, cousins so they saw, spend– they spend a lot of time with them because they were much closer than my family and, um, always down at the Delaware shore and, uh, they lived not far away, in Pennsylvania and Delaware so, uh, you know, we got to see them fairly often in holidays and stuff like that, um, my folks were still up in Jersey until, until, I don’t know, I don’t even remember when they moved, but they– they– they trans– they retired down to Florida and we would go down to visit them every now and then, maybe once a year, so, that was fun too, yeah.
What was it– was there, um, you mentioned, your transidentifying daughter. Was there anything in terms of, like, childhood experiences or stuff like that– or should I say, when did your– when did you first express a different identity?
That’s really difficult because so many people in all these– my experience now with a lot of this community, they all say, you know, they knew right away, or the kids knew right away and I– I don’t think– Sam didn’t really tell us until she was in college and I don’t think she even really understood herself– she said she didn’t really realize that there was such a thing. I mean I, you know, I guess, probably. She was always, um, always liked to play with the girls in preschool, but she didn’t really play with ‘em, she played next to them, she wasn’t really big in sports, although we had her in soccer, and both the kids were in soccer, but they weren’t really interested, they just went there to play around and, uh, it was, um, Sam was really, really smart, and learned to read when she was 3 years old, so, she always was reading books. In fact, if she was bad we’d say, “Go to your room and no reading” [chuckles]. So it was, you know, she was very much a loner and didn't really have a lot of friends although in team sports or at parties or something, I mean, she was there, but never really fit in with anybody, and I always thought it was because she was so darn smart and a lot of– sometimes the kids didn’t like that and so she was kind of ostracized. The teachers always loved her though, “Oh she thinks out of the box,” “She’s so clever,” and so “What a good student,” and, um, always excelled. But then of course, in later years in grammar school and middle school she was bullied a lot and, I– I didn’t know too much about it because she didn’t talk about it, but I’d know later, I had a feeling that, you know, we’d say picking on, “Who’s picking on you?” And there were times when I would get in high school, I remember Junior high, we called it being mocked out, somebody would want to mock you out, so I’d been through it, but I don’t think it was anywhere as near like– like what, like, ‘cause I think I was little more self–you know, not respectful but– and I don’t even wanna say stronger but, um, I could identify myself more, and I think she really couldn’t, um, it was only when– and I know especially junior high or middle school was really, really, tough for her, and she’d just come home, and always did her homework right away, but never really had to work hard, and always, like I said, got good grades, um, it was– there were some– thinking back, I mean I guess Tom and I we didn’t really talk about but we probably thought she was gay, and, you know–
(00:40:22)
and, you know, but the kids would say– some of the boys would pick on her and say, you’re, you know [imitating the kids] “Oh you’re gay!” You know, obviously that’s a terrible thing to– to make and I don’t think she thought she was, I don’t know what she thought she was, um, but now I see. I mean remember this one time in high school, Sam was in the Marching Band in high school and really liked that and found a group of friends through that and one day she came home with this hair clip, from the flag squad, one of his friends, her friends, sorry, uh, who is in the flag squad, had– that all the girls had these roses, that clipped on in their hair as part of their costume and Sam came home with it and had it in her room and I said, “Oh where’d this come from?” “Oh I guess so and so must’ve forgotten it.” Oh she, he at the time, he’s got a crush on her, but it was because she wanted it and it made her feel good about herself and I didn’t realize that at the time, and then I– when I really noticed it, once we went to this clothing store and it was, I don’t even remember what it was, the booth was, you didn’t really go to a seperate room, the booth was there with curtains around it, but it only had a booth, a door that came down just a little below the knee so you could see inside there, and Sam went in to try some clothes in there and I guess there was a dress in there, hanging on the back of the door and I could sit outside and see inside and, I mean I couldn’t see the whole body but I could see from like the knees down, and I could see her put on this dress and it was swishing around and then I thought, “wow,” and she took it off and hung it up and said, “okay,” as if nothing had happened. And then I, obviously now, I’m thinking and this, this was probably senior year in high school, but, she still hadn’t said anything to us, other than, um, well I don’t think she ever said anything, other than, you know, maybe express the fact that she didn’t fit in very well in school, was eager to go to college. And then in College, um, that’s when I– I think it was her– her, um, her sophomore year, her freshman year was good, because she got into the marching band and– and made friends and– but her sophomore year she had a terrible roommate and her other friends from the band had roomed together some place else and she didn’t want to do that, and, it was just an awful year, and that’s when the shit hit the fan [chuckles]. I think. And she really came to the conclusion, I guess that– I remember her saying to me, “Can Shawn be a girl's name?” And I say, “yeah.” ‘cause I have a– I have a co-worker whose name is Shawn, it's a woman, and I still didn’t really put two and two together, and– and another time, I mean I think she was trying to tell us, but we were just so oblivious. I mean I didn’t know anybody who was trans, so I didn't really have any experience and neither did my husband and there were other things, that I kind of, I didn’t share with my husband and I just knew uh, I don’t know, just experiences, that just, at the time it never even really sunk in, but it was only later that I a lot of these things and then, um, finally I guess, the end of sophomore year she said– I could tell that, she, well, she was real upset and we said, you know, why don’t you go see, you know, a counselor at the school and finally she came out and somehow said, um, I’m not a dude, and then we realized, “Oh.” And I guess we’d gotten to that point but it had never been– So right away we, I– I knew going back to school, the next year was
(00:45:02)
gonna be really hard and, um, I could see on the school website that they had gender inclusive housing, and I said, “You need to get into this community, this gender inclusive housing,” and it was really pretty late when we actually do it, because by then everybody had already, you know, chosen dorms for the next year, and was ready to make commitments, but I’d emailed the housing people and they, I mean it didn't really say on the website how to get, well you actually had to be a member of the community. Well I didn’t know that, I thought anybody could say, “I wanna get in.” Well as– a couple of weeks before school started, okay we do have a room after all, even though, and so thank god because then, um, her junior year, she was really happy, made a lot of friends in the community and that’s really when she started to realize, I mean obviously she had been realizing this all along, but it –it became obvious. It– that you’re in it now [chuckles], it’s not just a phase, it’s, um, you know, and– and we had to I don’t wanna say buy in, but we came to the realization that this is the way it was gonna be it wasn’t just, “Oh, she’ll change her mind,” or “He’ll change his mind,” whatever. So.
What does gender inclusive, or how did you come to understand what gender inclusive housing is?
Well it said that you could room with either sex, with however you identify, it was LGBTQ friendly, and so I– I was thinking of it more as, um, gay I guess, or lesbian, or whatever, but there obviously were a lot of transgender people there too. And in fact I think the fir– some time during the junior year, I mean the sophomore year, where, you know, it was a terrible year. I mean she was depressed and even, actually, we found out later, she had been cutting herself, and just, one time– and then I lost my train of thought about the gender inclusive, um– Oh! She said she was going to the rainbow center, which is a center at the university, um, and had met some people there, I guess that’s the first thing she did before the– the, um, we found out about the inclusive housing, and she said, um, “Oh, it,” she was telling us about it, “it made me feel good because there were people there who were like me and I mean, there were people there who–” and I’m thinking it’s just mostly a gay center, again, for lesbians, and, um, she said, “There’s some people there that say they’re neither male or female” and I thought, “Well that’s weird those people just don’t know what they want” and he’s– she’s like, “What do you mean?” It was perfectly sensible to her but I didn’t know you could be gender fluid or non-conforming and all this and, you know, I guess I’m not as well versed, as worldly as I thought I was, obviously, but, uh, only because, you hadn’t really experienced it and it wasn’t all that. I mean now it’s so much, I mean it’s only been four-five years but it’s so much more– you know, it’s so much easier to be educated now than it was four or five years ago, um, and more people are aware of more things. I mean I still have a lot of friends that don’t really understand because they never had to experience so, but–
(00:49:01)
What was the– when you– when you had shared the story about trying on clothes and seeing the dress, and you said your brain had started– your mind had started to process the thing, what were you thinking about at the time, how did you process it?
I guess I, at that point, you know the timeline in my mind is kinda fuzzy, but I don’t think she had come out to us, well maybe she had because– well maybe not. I don’t know. I guess I started to realize that maybe that that was the case and I– I think at the time I thought, uh oh I hope it’s not, but at that, at that store, we didn’t buy a dress– she was– but she did buy a flannel shirt from the girl section and I said; “Are you sure you want that?” “Yes.” And it was red and it had, like, pink flannel stripes and– so then, I– I, like I said, I don’t remember if she had told us by that time or we were aware or whatever, but it was really the first time that I was aware of what was, you know, that it was, not just words, and it was real, or that’s the way it was so.
Uh, what the– what went wrong with– since college in sophomore year? Was it just, ah–
Um, somebody didn’t know, she didn’t know–
Sorry.
And, um, he was a, I don’t know, he had his own friend, they never talked to each other, so, it– it was just, I needed a room and he needed a room, and they got thrown together and they had nothing in common. His freshman year he was with another, they had to go a week early because of marching band, and it, he was in the freshman dorm, and his roommate was also in the marching band, so right away it started out a week early and, you know, became friends, and it was a big community, the marching band community, I mean there was 300 kids, it was a huge marching band. So they did things together for a week and, you know, nonstop as a group, then everybody else came in. So by then you had already established everything, well the second year, it’s true, she still went early for marching band, and had the room to herself for a week, but then this guy comes in and moves in and he just, like I said, he didn’t, he didn’t talk to Sam and Sam didn't talk to him, it just was not good, you know. I don’t think she had any of her– she still had some friends from the marching band, but most of them had or moved in together or were doing their own thing so it was, um, I think she felt very much alone. And it was an older dorm, it was a yucky dorm so, um, just glad that, you know, the following year worked out much better.
So how old was Sam when she finally expressed what was going on?
(00:52:25)
I guess it was, it was sophomore, so what is that 20– 20 years old, 19?
And what was your process after that was said?
Well, we knew how unhappy she was so, um, you know, encouraged her to see a coun– a counselor on– on– on through the counseling the– whatever the center is that um, “Go talk to somebody,” I said, “you need to–”
At the University?
At the university, yeah, I said, “You need to talk to somebody. You need to, you know, find out, really discover more about yourself, and you don’t wanna be unhappy and the more you talk about it the easier it’ll be.” And the grades were bad and wasn’t going to school and any classes and just, I mean here’s this kids that was straight As all through high school, terrific SAT scores and AP placement and everything and then, I mean she’s barely getting a C, so freshman year, didn’t do that great either as well as we expected but, um, sophomore year was just really bad and I just knew she was very, very depressed. And, uh, there was one time where she called home and we were scared that she was going to do something bad like, you know, I think that’s when she told me she had been cutting herself and my husband actually called the school, and said– well no, I guess he called our, um, we have a nurse hotline or something in order to get– to find out about who could help her, I don’t remember exactly the story but we were very concerned and I was just, you know, “Don’t do anything stupid,” but you can’t really say that, but as a parent, you know, it was very disconcerting and I just felt so awful for her and wished that, you know, she was up in Connecticut and we’re home here. It wasn’t like we could just drive and pick her up on the weekends, um, luckily he got through that, but the problem with the counseling is well you have to go online and sign up or something and then somebody calls you back and says, “Well you can come in next week,” and I mean it was just not a good thing and then who you see is probably some grad student or, I mean they just obviously weren’t– you would think that somebody that had gender inclusive housing and a rainbow center, that they’d be better on the therapy part or the counseling or whatever, but it was not, it was not beneficial. She went a couple of times but it was like once a week or once every two weeks or something and that’s not gonna be good enough. But, she did struggle through and made it to the end of the year and then, um, I guess as summer went, you know, we really kinda faced it and said, we need to do something if you’re going to go back and– and hopefully it will be better and it was, so.
So what was the– around this time you started to get more information or you started to get more specific information, I guess, in terms of what was going on or what her expression is. What did you do for yourself?
(00:56:00)
Pretty much just went online and googled transgender and all the terms, and I did come across the standard of care and on– I looked up a lot of different, um, I found out about the, um, IPG and the Pride Center and Garden State Equality and just, you know, we– we wanted to educate ourselves and, um. Of course the– it was very difficult with her being away in school and us being at home for us to really do anything other than inform ourselves and try to encourage her, um, you know, keep her spirits up or be happy when, [exhales]. I kinda think, I don’t know, she, [exhales in frustration] when she was in high school. I think it was like her senior year, Tom came across, my husband came across a description of aspergers and said, “Read this, who does this sound like?” And bingo it sounded exactly like my kid and I said– so– it, you know, she had never been diagnosed as– as it but she was always a person that wouldn’t look you in the eye, wasn’t good with social cues especially which is why I think she didn’t have a whole lot of friends because she couldn’t figure out that when you’re, you know, she couldn’t read body language or understand that somebody is being sarcastic, or it anyway. So when we read all these things, maybe it was in junior year, is and she’d never been diagnosed per se it was just, it fit her so well, they wouldn’t call it aspergers anymore but, um, and I said, “So what are we supposed to do with this information, okay, maybe our kid does have aspergers but what do we do now?” She’s a, get mad at school, it’s not like that, I know that in school, I mean how could the teachers that loved her, but obviously, didn’t they see it too though we didn’t really think there was anything wrong it was just, “Oh that’s Shawn,” you know. Um, too bad we didn’t know this a lot earlier because I know the schools have to, you know, put you in your, or treat you, or diagnose you or whatever, and maybe there could have been somebody that could’ve gone and talked to her a lot earlier. I’m not saying that one has anything to do with the other, being transgender and aspergers, but it– it does appear that many people that are transgender are on the autism spectrum and maybe there is something, you know, physically that connects that, that that’s what I understand, so. I just think it might have been that we have known a lot earlier, maybe, got her into therapy, maybe she would have realized a lot sooner, maybe we could have, she could have been happier with herself, I don’t know. I mean, shoulda, coulda, woulda but didn’t happen, um, so, you asked what we did. Pretty much what we did was, like I said, tried to educate ourselves, although we did start to go to– I found a support group through Robert Wood Johnson's and, um, we did go while she was still in school, and we started to go there and that really helped us a lot, and, um, Nikki’s group and we’ve been going for well over two years now, almost three years now. I don’t think we really, you know, it’s not like we’re learning that much, but anymore, but it’s very good to talk to other parents and see what they’re going through, and since this is such a long process, I mean with some people maybe it’s really quick but it certainly hasn’t been with Sam, so– um–
What was, uh, do you have a memory of what your first support group meeting was like? What it was like going into the space first?
(01:00:12)
Um, yeah, we just kept saying “Well we’re new to this. This is new to us,” [chuckles] and, um, I think some of the people who still go were there at the time, maybe one couple, um, and oh I took copious notes. I still take notes when I go there but not anywhere as near like when I use to, writing down all these websites and Nikki and Kim were really good about, you know, sharing 'cause, and– and, you know, that any time new people come in she talks about that and– and i– i– it’s so important to, you know, educate yourself, erm, it was really good to know that we weren’t alone. I didn’t know anybody, I didn't know anybody who was transgender or had relatives. Well since then I had confided in– I had confided, well yeah, confided in a friend of mine that I’ve known for quite a while, and I said, “Well Sam,” you know, she asked about Shawn, and I said, “Shawn is Sam now and she’s transgender.” And she said, “Oh! My nephew’s transgender and has been for–” and it’s like, we never talked about it for years and, you know, I– I hear more and more about that as I talk to different people so they’re– they’re out there it’s just that, nobody really knew, or I shouldn’t say nobody but you know, my– my small sphere of experience I didn't know, so.
It’s good to know that there are other people going through the same thing you’re going through.
You had, uh, mentioned, uh, at a point, that you had some friends who perhaps didn’t take the news or hadn’t accepted it in a way that you had hoped.
I did [chuckles].
Yeah, you had mentioned that you kind of maybe had some negative experiences.
Well, I still haven’t told everybody, only because it’s not– like I remember one– one person at the support group said, “Well, once we– once my daughter came out to us, we called all our friends over, we had this, you know, we just had them all over the house and we told everybody at one time.” And I’m like, I don’t do that, you know, I’m not gonna do that, that’s just not the way we are. But, it– it hasn’t come up with a lot of people, but that’s really difficult because you don’t know who knows and who doesn’t [interviewer laughs] and I’m in a group of, you know, six friends and three of them may know and three of ‘em may not. And it’s not like it’s a big secret or anything, it’s just that, “Did I tell this person? Or do they know?” or, you know, so somebody may ask about my kids and I’ll say “Well Sam,” and it’s like, “Who’s Sam?” you know. Uh, so it really is not, I– I would love to share this with everybody who is a friend of mine, it just maybe it isn’t the right place or the right time or, you know, you’re not just gonna make an announcement at least I’m– I don’t plan to do that. And it’s something you wanna– you don’t– I still don’t know how everybody is gonna react and if they’re, you know, if they’re gonna write me off then they are not friends to begin with, but I can’t imagine that people that are friends of mine would be that way. I think they would be very understanding, but then, there are people who will make a
(01:03:39)
comment every now and then that don’t, you know, know that it’s personal to me and, um, you know, like, “They chose to be” “Oh– oh now all of a sudden they became gay,” and I say, “You don’t just all of a sudden become gay!” [laughs] You know, and, not that they are saying it derogatively, de– derogatorily, whatever the– but, uh, you know I try to subtly correct people, like, you know, I belong to a book club and, you know, somebody might say something and I’m not gonna, “Oh by the way!” [chuckles] Down there that end, um, so, but I don’t think I’ve come across somebody who is against it or, I mean, they wouldn’t be my friends. I think I know by now how they’d feel. Almost all my friends are pretty liberal like me, I mean everybody hates Trump but [chuckles] there are some people whose husband’s however, now my sister-in-law is very liberal and her husband is very conservative and last, um, I guess it was at last Thanksgiving, she had her in-laws over and his parents are very conservative also, and by this time she knew about Sam, and I’d said, “Okay Beth, is– is there gonna be an issue with Jeff’s parents and Sam (who now has been on hormones and still looks male, pretty much but, ah, but dresses more now, more feminine) do you think there’s gonna be a problem with Jeff’s parents, the way they’re so ('cause they’re from Southern Delaware and they’re just kinda hicks. Very nice people but, you know, just not, they don’t believe they're Trump supporters and things like that anyway!).” And she said, “Oh, uh, I don’t think so but I’ll have Jeff talk to them.” Well I don’t know if she ever did, but, it was fine, there was not– I mean– I wasn’t worried but I wanted to mention it. And now this summer I’m a little concerned because Sam just bought a bathing suit with a little skirt, and up to this year she’s always worn trunks and, you know, a top, but– and now– so now I’m just wondering how it’s gonna be with my brother-in-law and, um, I– I don’t know, it– I can’t imagine he would say anything but I don’t think he’s gonna be real happy but, you know, if you’re gonna be that way, we’ll go sit someplace else but I’m just a little, uh, you know, I have trepidation that our week at the beach next month, I don’t know we’ll see, um. Sam doesn’t care so I suppose I shouldn’t either, but. Anyway! I still like when we– when she wears a skirt, which she does, and we’re out in public or we went shopping and we go into the ladies room to change. I can still see people giving second glances and doesn’t bother her at all, but it’s still– I’m ready to like, “Don’t you dare say anything,” and nobody has ever said anything but I’m just, I don’t want to put her in that position. I– I’d feel bad if they do but, she has a license now that says female and a– a– a new name and she has every right to do what she wants to be there but, it’s still you can’t help to feel protective. So–
What’s your– what’s your experience with like, you know, now that you’ve been going to the support group for a couple of years, what’s your experience or what– what comes up for you when new parents come into that space, you know, what is it– what is it so you have hopes for them or do you have frustrations?
(01:07:53)
Um, well it’s funny because sometime I don’t– I would prefer that new people don’t come in [chuckles] because the focus is on them, and I know that’s being very selfish but I’ve heard a lot of it before, however it always make me feel good when we say, “Listen we’ve been through it,” and “You’ll get through this,” and “Here’s some advice.” And I– I remember what it was like when I was new so, it– it always winds up to be good and I feel good that they feel better, but then there are those that come in and you never see them again and you wonder, you know, they’re so crazy, they haven’t accepted yet, and maybe that’s why they haven’t come back and they will eventually, or they found other ways to do it, but I certainly hope it’s not, you know, “You guys are crazy and I will never be part of the community, I can’t accept this type thing.” I hope it’s not– I hope they find peace with it and support for their kids, but– so– Mixed feelings on new people.
How– how involved have you been in just kinda the decision making process or kinda like setting– helping, kinda reach benchmarks or set benchmarks or–
Well– my husband has been more, only because, well I shouldn’t say only, but mainly because it’s, you know, I’m working all day on my desk in my office and it– my husband is like c’mon we need to do this, here, here’s the thing, do this, do this, and I try to talk to Sam, like, just today, “Why don’t you go,” and, you know, she hasn’t gotten a driver’s license yet, “Why don’t you go on and take some tests online?” She had a permit but it expired, so now she has to go through the test again, which she doesn’t want to do, but she knows she has to get a drivers’ license if she’s gonna– she’s just at this point where she has no urge to do anything. She’s depressed, sleeps late, we try to look into finding a psychiatrist but they’re not taking new patients or they don’t, you know, take insurance, and we’re already paying for the therapy every week and, um, you know, it’s just been kinda difficult and my husband’s like, “Well, it’s her, she’s 23 years old, she should be making the phone calls and trying to find somebody,” but you really have to hold her hand, and even then, it’s like, “Don’t tell me to do it or I won’t do it.” So, it’s so difficult to know how much you can push, but he’s the one, my husband’s the one who has said, “Okay, here’s the steps to do the legal name change, we have to do this so you need to fill out this form,” but maybe Tom will print it off the website and have him sign it, you know, like, you would think that if someone wanted something badly enough that they’d do it themselves and we’ve said that, but, she says, “I know I agree, I’m just terrible,” and then she starts putting herself down and what an awful person she is and– and, you know, you don’t wanna do that, you know, you don’t wanna– I don’t want you to feel that way because it spirals, so I try to be as upbeat as– look at it, if you did this one little thing it will make you feel like you accomplished something today or, so we really– I think she really should go s– maybe medication will help and– some of my friends have had their kids in medication a long time. I didn’t know that I mean, and it has nothing to do with being transgender, it’s, um, you know, they’ve seen a psychiatrist for depression or whatever and they’ve made recommendations but again, they– they– it’s, unfortunately it’s costly and that
(01:12:09)
really worries me because I am retiring in January, I won’t have insurance anymore, um, and she’s on my insurance ‘til she’s 26 but, uuhh, if I don’t have insurance, you know, I could get medicare but not for her, so that’s why– ya– that’s my biggest worry right now is what are we gonna do when insurance won’t cover, um, all these medical, you know, the therapy and the, uh, um– It doesn't cover therapy now anyway, we’re paying that out of pocket, but, um, the pills, you the– the medicine and, you know, maybe she’ll want surgery in the future, she said she doesn’t at this point but I don’t know– I don’t– I really wish she’d find a job but she doesn’t know what she wants to do, she’s just really floundering right now and just doesn't have the encouragement to do it so I think if she does see a psychiatrist and gets on some antidepressants or something that would help, but we– you know, we’ve had a couple names, she has made some phone calls but they either didn’t return the call or they say they’re not taking new patients as I said, um, Jackie has offered to recommend a psychiatrist but we haven’t, you know, it’s like, “Sam, you should really write to Jackie not us, you know this is–” but she hasn’t done it so maybe– as a parent, how far do you go? You don’t wanna be a helicopter parent, you don’t wanna do everything for them, you want them to become, you know, you’re an adult! You’re 23 years old, you should be doing this stuff yourself but she’s not so– do we go ahead and do it or– so it just kinda doesn’t get done and, I don’t– I don’t know what the answer is, I don’t know whether we should step up more or step back more and just see, eventually, will it happen? I don’t– I don’t know, that’s my quandary right now.
What’s been, uh, what’s been your experience, I mean you mention quite a bit kinda like accessing certain healthcare, things like that, but what’s been your kinda overall experience in how the healthcare system has responded or how you’ve– or how the therapist that you have found have responded or–
Well, the therapist that she goes to is supposedly tops in the field but we never hear any feedback from her about it! All I know is every now and then she’ll mention, “Oh, yeah we were talking about marching band in high sch-” is like what do you, “do you just sit there and just chat or is this person helping you?” “Yeah, yeah.” “Well what do you-,” ah, you know, they, she won’t talk about it, so I don’t know if it’s really, beneficial, now do we, you know, and obviously because of confidentiality the therapist isn’t gonna tell us anything but, do we try somebody else, or, I mean would– would she be worse if she wasn’t going to see him? So, that’s difficult. As far as the healthcare system, you know, everything is so expensive, so many people in the mental health field will not take insurance, they don’t want to be bothered and it’s very, very expensive, but you want to do what’s right for your kid so, I mean, you know, we could be using that money for a lot of other things but obviously this is something important, I– I wish there was universal healthcare for all that covered all that, obviously that’s a pipe dream, um– But maybe someday but what do we do in the meantime, um, and, you know, will– will Doctors and
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therapists even participate, you know, right now they choose not to, so many of them, “We don’t take insurance,” so– okay, then what? You know, obviously our healthcare leaves much to be desired, we’ve always been lucky because I’ve been employed all these years and I have pretty good, decent, but, um, and without it I don’t know how people can afford medicine, without insurance, some of the prescriptions you get are, you know, $300 and you pay $8, I just– ugh– I don’t know how they do it.
Having gone through this experience are there any moment that you kinda reflect on in your own life in which you became aware of gender, specifically, in which gender kinda played, you think, played a role in your life or– or kinda experiences that you witnessed or has it changed your opinion on gender? Has it changed your perspective on it?
Um, well, growing up of course it was always male, female, you know, there wasn’t any in between, except for the huge outliers like, you know, Jorgense, or– or– even when, um, Bruce Jenner, you know, that was not that long ago, but that was a huge thing and now, when you look back you think, “How stupid.”But whatever, so, uh, yeah, it changed in that I didn't realize there could be so many different– it’s not just male and female or, uh, you know, those who have certain genitalia, those don’t, and a lot of it’s mental, um, I– you know, I don’t know what causes it or why some people are the way they are but I truly think its physical or mental thing, I don’t know, I mean– that there’s nothing– it’s not like somebody just decides that that’s what they wanna do or, um, did God screw up? I don’t know, do you call it a screw up? Or– or is it just that’s just the way it is and those people have been out there, you know, I read a lot of history, very interesting things, you know, there’d been different time periods where it was perfectly acceptable, even like– even like Indi– isn’t it India that has like four different genders and, I didn’t know that. So yeah, I’ve become more aware in that way, um, you know, as far as I know the majority is still one or the other, I guess everybody has a little shade of something, I mean you got tomboys right, or you have more effeminate men, or of the male sex so, um, that’s just, the way it is now, I relaize that, it’s always been that way but, um, I forget the question [laughs] sorry.
No yeah, I mean I think it’s, you know, how is it– how is it changed if you express that when you grew up? You had an understanding of two genders, right, male or female, and then at what point has your own perspective change or shift and adjust and how has that changed?
And I think it is, it’s very good now, you see more and more parents are– are realizing that there isn’t just male and female, in fact, I hate this gender reveal stuff you know, [she imitates what the excitability of this person having the party would be] “Oh, let’s have a big party and gender reveal whatever.” And I– I never really thought about it until Sam said, “Well, the kid may not even
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know their own gender until later,” but my niece is having a baby in July and she doesn't want to know what the sex is and is not– and I said, “I am so glad you are not having a gender reveal to do.” And she said, “Well it doesn’t matter to us and we just wanna, you know, do,” I think there’s a lot more of, in the younger generation now, of saying, um, you know, “If my son wants to wear princess outfits, fine,” “If my daughter doesn’t wanna wear a dress fine, I’m not gonna make her.” I remember babysitting, uh, the– when I was in high school there was a little boy down the street, um, that I baby sat for and he used to play with Barbies all the time and I remember thinking, “Why is that boy playing with Barbies?” I mean, how stupid of me to think that, but that’s just the way it was and it’s like, what’s– “He should be doing that.” I– I just can’t believe that I thought that way but I remember thinking that at the time, and, um, he actually is gay now, [laughs] I mean not now, he was, but still, ah, you know, it was so– there was very– I didn’t realize it but yes, you were brought up that way and there were male and there were females and they acted one way, and they acted another, I’m glad to see that it’s not that way so much anymore.
What would you change about culture if you could? Is there anything you would change about it?
About culture!
Yeah, you know, about the– we could narrow it down because maybe there’s many answers to that question but you know what is- what is kinda the next step in terms of advocacy or public understanding.
Well– umph– you know, a lot of it is, I think, related to politics. Unfortunately if we could get more, what I consider liberal people in there, people who really appreciate the environment, appreciate individuals, appreciate– are less selfish and– and whatever, I think a lot of it comes from the top, and– and government, they do have influence unfortunately, um, that’s hard to change and you’re always going to have the people who don't know any better but I think things like– when the show Ellen came out, that was such a big thing for her to say I’m gay but everybody loved Ellen so it became acceptable, um, and, way back, you know, I think a lot po– popular stuff in social media and stuff is– is really opening up people’s eyes and that’s good to an extent, but than those same things can be used to do just the opposite, um, but I think culture– People are getting wiser because they’re exposed to it more and I guess that’s all you can hope for. It’s the more– more you know and you don’t– you may not– people say, “Oh I don’t know anybody who’s trans,” uh, you probably do or, “I don’t know anybody who’s gay.” Yeah I think you do, so um, it’s– it’s just exposure I guess, um, and you keep it up and I don’t know if you saw the debates last night but two of the people actually mentioned trans and Sam’s sitting
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here going, “Alright Cory!” You know he mentioned it and so did, I don’t know, Castro or somebody so, that’s– had never been brought up before in fact, I just read today at the last debates, the republican debates, every single republican said they were against gay marriage and look at how far we’ve come since then, and that was only what three years ago? So not that the law– the laws have caught up yet, but at least it’s progressing, so.
Is there anything, any question you were expecting me to ask that I haven’t asked?
No. The only one I could think that you would probably ask is when did you first become aware and you asked so, um, other than that I had no idea what we would talk about for two hours. [both laugh] I– I, you know, I don’t think that I’m all that interesting, I’m probably like anybody else, um, [smacks her teeth] but, you know, I’m just a mother who loves her kids and wants what’s best and it’s concerned about what’s gonna happen when– when she– and my husband and I aren’t there anymore I hope, you know, I don’t want– I just hope she’d be okay [chuckles] um–
We didn’t really talk about how your older daughter has gone through all of this
Yeah– Well. Ally is not real, she won’t, she doesn’t share a lot, um, but, she– she was amazing, it’s like– at one point I remember saying Sammy you gotta– you gotta tell your sister and she knew, I think already, but– when– when, um, I think it was shortly right before Christmas when– when Sam said something and Ally knew, but for Christmas she gave her a necklace that had the, um, the symbol– it was a chemical, the chemical composition for– for, um, estrogen or something, I don’t know, but it was something very touching and it was as if to say, you know, and she’s also given her another necklace that said something about sister so. And she told all her friends 'cause when we went down to, my daughter works for Disney, and when we went down there and were going to go to the parks and stuff and had met some of her friends, well I guess Sam went down by herself, um, that first winter, and so, I said, “Well you better let your friends know.””Oh yeah they know,” they were all so like, “Oh no big deal.” In fact I’ve told some of my– remember I said my friends have kids the same age, who went to school and stuff and when I’ve told the mothers, they had gone of course and talked to their kids and the kids were like, “Oh yeah we knew that, no big deal, yeah we saw it on Facebook,” and, you know, we make such a big thing out of it but they’re like, “Ah, it’s the way it is.” Again what was the question [laughs]?
About your–
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Oh, oh and Ally! So she’s been very good and is very, you know, she’s written cards, I haven’t read them but I know she sends, feels bad that sh– sh– Sam is going through a tough time but she can’t really do much ‘cause she’s in Florida so, um, but she’s a big sister and will still, you know, you’re an idiot, whether you’re a male or female, whatever, she– They– they do sometimes get on each other’s nerves but kids do that, so. Um, I– I don’t think it’s a big deal to her, she always used to say, um, she’d say, on a picture maybe she put “my wido broda,” you know, she’d spell it that way and finally Sam said, “Don’t do that anymore,” and so now– now she of course, you know, doesn’t refer to him as her or to her as her “wido broda” anymore to say what did I ,um, uh, Shawny boy, and I remember in High School, “Don’t call me Shawny boy anymore.” “Why not, I think that’s cute?'' Well now I know why she didn’t want to be called Shawny boy, ‘cause that’s what Ally would say when I was pregnant, “Oh hi Shawny boy, you’re in there.” So we called him that for a while, but then, um, well, you know, it’s a term of endearment so, um, it was easier for her to always say she and I still have trouble with my pronouns sometimes because, even though I know in my mind, educationally or, what’s the word, intelligently that it should be she or it is she/her and, um, Sam, I still find myself thinking of herself as my son even though I know she’s my daughter now, but it’s just so hard after twenty-three years. Um, and I guess it’s– well is it easier for kids because they’ve– it’s been that less of a time, I– I– I don’t know. I mean I’ve noticed when I woke up and I’ve had a dream and it was Shawn and not– not but that’s just– I guess it’s because it’s always been that way for so long so, it’s still, again even though I know intellectually, it’s only still gonna take some time. I mean it’s only been a couple years. Two years I guess since we’ve known and I still got a lot more time to go, I hope, where I won’t fail anymore, I won’t make mistakes, although you’re probably always gonna make mistakes but, so.
Other than pronouns were there any other adjustments towards like photographs or, like, other memories?
I’ve asked her about– we have photos of the kids and the family and I said, “Do you want me to take those down or do you mind that they’re there?” And she said, “No I don’t mind. That’s– I don’t look that much different but that was the way I was then,” although she has said that she hates to think of, “Oh I don’t ever wanna think about grammar school.” I didn’t realize that it was so traumatic for her all those years she kept everything inside, you know, being bullied and all that– I mean if I had known I don’t know what I would’ve done, but I felt kinda–just my heart breaks sometimes when I realize the things that she’s gone through, and even back then I remember, you know, having hard time when the kids would make fun of her and stuff but anyway, no, not as far as that’s concerned, um, still getting the clothing thing right. Um, I still feel, I hate to admit it, but I still feel a little uncomfortable when she wears a skirt, if she looked more like a girl, I hate to say that, you know, that’s being very, um, gender stereo-type but, it
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might not be so– obvious? Is that what I wanna say, um, it doesn’t bother her though, so it shouldn’t bother me but, you know, I guess– I don’t know, it does and– I shouldn’t say bother, just I– I’m not a hundred percent comfortable, let's put it that way, um. And like when we went into the ladies room to try on, you know, they had different booths but I– I was like, [whispers] “talk softer,” you know, I don’t want all these women to start complaining, go through that story that Jackie tells about calling security and all that. “What do you mean?” I said, “Just don’t– don’t talk so loud, I don’t want them to complain,” whatever, and I guess I’m making excuses and I probably shouldn’t but, sorry, [chuckles] that’s all you can do is apologize and, uh, hope that I– I get better at it.
What are your [narrator coughs] do you have any thoughts or feelings about the, like, Babs Siperstein laws or about the laws that have been passed in New Jersey and where New Jersey is?
Well I think it’s great, ‘cause Sam just had a birth certificate change, um, you know, I’m glad that they had the opportunity to, um, to make these changes. I wish everybody would. I don’t see that happening but we have a very liberal state so, um, when we went to the pride parade in Asbury Park a couple weeks ago, and Sam marched in the parade, and it was just so joyous and so happy, and there were so many people on the sidelines cheering them on, it– eh, made me very proud to be– so able to celebrate like that, because you couldn’t do that down south or in the midwest or– So, um, I mean we’re lucky that we have those kinds of laws and more acceptance here but not everywhere and certainly not every person but–
Any other last thoughts or–
No– not– not that I can really– I don’t know if I’ve been helpful at all but, [clear throat] no. I just, all I– I– what I put in her baby book when she was born was, uh, it said “What do you want for your child?” And I said I just want, at the time was him, “I just want him to be happy when he grows up,” and that’s still all I want, and– and everybody– well not everybody– but my sister I know laughed at me, “What a dumb thing to say what you want for your child.” I said, “Why? I, you know, if they’re happy that’s all that’s important I think.” So that’s still exactly what I want is I just want her to be happy and safe, of course, but if your happy chances are your safe too, so I– I just wish that– that that happens so– okay.