Mohammad Chowdhury

Prospect Park resident Mohammad Chowdhury graduated from Rutgers and has significant student loan debt. He works as a business analyst and was previously unemployed for a year.

“And we– the way I like to look at it, we have been, kinda in a way, been set up for failure. You’re kinda fed this lie, right, your whole life, and it’s like, no, you– like, not everyone will be able to be, like, whatever they want, and do whatever they want, it’s not that easy.”
— Mohammad Chowdhury

ANNOTATION

1. Minimum Wage - Millions of New Jerseyans have been unable to properly afford their expenses and obligations due to low pay and wage deflation. Recently, in early 2019, the state signed into law legislation that will increase the minimum wage for most workers by 2024 and for all workers (except for tipped workers) by 2029. This will help over a million workers by boosting their pay, and have an indirect benefit on hundreds of thousands more further up the income scale as businesses reform their compensation policies and the economy grows. This increase is projected to allow for more residents to have the ability to fully participate and afford critical purchases.
2. Student Loan Debt - Student loan debt is a significant issue for young people all across the country. New Jersey has recently made changes to its higher education loan programs to make it easier for borrowers to pay back their loans without increased difficulty. These changes only apply to students who have borrowed through the state's programs.
3. Pay Equity - New Jersey recently implemented a new pay equity law that requires businesses to pay women the same amount as men for equal work.
4. Reentry - A significant challenge to recently released prisoners is reentry into the labor market. Policies that prepare people returning to society with skills to attain and sustain employment are critical to ensuring their successful reintegration into society, and importantly help reduce recidivism.
5. Health Care - New Jersey has taken serious steps to protect the gains made under the Affordable Care Act and keep health insurance costs low. This helps ensure that more residents have health coverage so that they are covered for serious health issues.
6. Education - New Jersey schools are among the most segregated in the country. In 2018, a coalition of various civil rights groups filed a lawsuit against the state to challenge the school system as unconstitutional due to the degree of segregation. Much of the segregation that exists in the education system is due to housing segregation and discrimination throughout New Jersey. 

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Mira Abou Elezz

Newark, New Jersey

Interview conducted in 2018

Transcription by Kether Tomkins

Annotations by Brandon McKoy

I am here with– 

Mohammad Chowdhury. 

And he so graciously came here to see me here in Newark, that’s where we are doing the interview. Mohammad, where are you from? 

I’m from Prospect Park, New Jersey. 

Prospect Park, New Jersey, is that where you were born? 

No, I was born and raised in Paterson, New Jersey. 

Paterson, okay. Can you tell me a little bit about growing up in Paterson? 

Um, well I guess, you could– I consider my parents– I grew up in a working class family. My dad use to work more than forty hours a week. And it was still– and we lived comfortably, but we didn't have anything that my parents would still set a limit on us and what we’re able to get. There would be if we wanted something like a nice pair of Nikes, we wouldn't be able to, because it was me and three other brothers. So if my parents bought for one of us, they would have to buy for all of us. So you know, like, my parents weren’t struggling to put food on the table, but it was still enough for us to get by. So we didn't live lavishly, but weren't living in complete poverty either. So. Working class. 

And I think that is something that a lot of people in this state can relate to. Um, are your parents from Paterson? 

Yes. Um, so my parents, they’re Bangladeshi. My dad came to America in the early 1980s, and my mom and her family immigrated to America, uh, the mid-1980s. My mom's family came here to kind of escape the war that was going on in Pakistan, it was East Pakistan was Pakistan at the time, but Pakistan and Bangladesh right now, so my grandfather– my mom’s father served in the, uh, the Pakistani army at the time so, um, after the war was over, they just decided to immigrate to America for kind of like, a better life, they wanted to get away from all of that. My dad on the other hand, he actually came here on a shi– so he worked on a cargo ship, they used to go and deliver different types of supplies, um, to all over, different ports all throughout America, all throughout the world actually, and he, when he made the decision to come here, honestly, he just got off in America and was here. 

He got off a cargo ship? 

He got off a cargo ship and he decided not to go back. 

Wow. 

Yeah.

Wow, so did he have, like, a work visa? He just–

He eventually, like, I guess, figured out his way around, and what he needed to do to become like, a citizen. Eventually, he went through everything, and became a citizen here. 

Okay. 

And yeah, I guess, the rest is history. 

Wow, that's fascinating. Were your parents– what was your parents socioeconomic back home before they moved here? 

My dad’s family was wealthy. You can consider them– my mom’s side of the family, you can consider them wealthy. Anyone in countries like Bangladesh, and stuff, as long as your family has a lot of land, you have money, you’re considered well off. So both my grandparents fortunately had a lot of land, so you can say they were well off. 

Did they feel some type of discrepancy after moving to the States?

Oh yeah, definitely. It’s a night and day difference. Like, my dad right now moved back to Bangladesh after almost twenty, thirty years here in the States. But he moved back to Bangladesh, just because it's a lot more comfortable living over there, he doesn't have to work as much, he doesn't have to work as much. He doesn't have to work as hard, he's not really into working as hard to begin with. He is more closer to retirement, so he is able to live over there without really having to work much. He runs a fishery over there, but he can afford to pay people over there, to kind of do the hard work, um, the day to day work. So as opposed to being here, he would have to get a job and try to support himself. So yes, it’s a night and day difference, because, you know, when you come to the States, everything is so expensive. You can't really just go off of– you need a well-paying job to make it, and I know a lot of families still struggle paycheck to paycheck, but I guess we’ll get into that later. 

[Annotation 1]

So would you say that you were living paycheck to paycheck in Paterson when you were still with the family? 

Yes.

What were your parents doing? 

My– so my mom was not working. My dada was the sole breadwinner of the family. He was a head chief at an Italian restaurant. He started off as a dish– like, a dishwasher and worked his way up to being a head chef. 

That's an interesting example of social mobility. 

Yeah, I know. [Laughs].

And did you visit Bangladesh when you were younger? 

Yes, I have been there twice. 

You’ve been there twice. 

Once in 1997, and second time was 2003. 

And what was your impression of, um, the way your family lived in Bangladesh versus your lifestyle and the American lifestyle? 

So going to Bangladesh, uh, you kind of see the houses– since my grandparents had a lot of land, they also had pretty big houses. So I guess what you would consider over here mansion-sized houses, is what my grandparents had back in Bangladesh. So it’s like wow, we have this here, then why are you guys in America, why are we struggling in America? 1997, I was a little too young to kind of process that, but definitely when I went back in 2003, I was definitely asking my parents questions, as to why they decided to leave in the first place. But I guess, you know, that was the land, was something that– it was what my grandparents had, it wasn't something my parents worked for, you know, so I guess they wanted something for their own, and they felt like they would have better opportunities coming over here, and that's why they ended up coming over here. That's why my dad came over here, my mom had no choice ‘cause her whole family decided to immigrate over here. So she was real young when they came over here. When she came here, she enrolled in the sixth grade. She was only, I think, eleven or twelve years old. 

So she spent most of her life here? 

Yeah, she spent most of her life here, early life in what was old Pakistan and Bangladesh. Since eleven, twelve years old, she's been over here. She graduated from elementary school here, and then she went to high school here. Um, and uh, my dad didn't go to school here, he just went to school back in Bangladesh. 

Okay. And do your parents have college educations? 

No, neither. 

And do you think that they feel like their decision to move to America played out as they envisioned? Was it worth it? 

Um, I would say yes and no. Because not everything I guess envisioned panned out the way they had envisioned, but it’s still a lot of what it could have been, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Um, ‘cause I don't know if they would have the same type of opportunities that they would have had if they were in Bangladeshi. So–

What type of opportunities? 

Just opportunities to make money. There is not much opportunity in Bangladesh to make money. 

It's just kind of what your family has, and that's what supports you. So they sacrificed kind of that family safety net to start over here. 

Exactly. 

Interesting. 

Because, like, you have land, but that's not a steady source of income, like, that's not really bringing you any type of money. It’s an asset, it’s something of value, but the only way it brings you money is if you sell it, and if you sell it, then what? You still need some kind of income coming in, so. 

Was your family sending money back home? 

Yes, my dad was sending money to his side of the family. ‘Cause majority of– Most of my mom’s side of the family, when they all immigrated here, they all came together, so my mom, two of her sisters, two of her brothers, and then both her parents. 

So she has family here? 

Yes, majority of her family is here. 

Has that been an advantage for her? 

I would say so. Just because, you know. Having that support system, I guess, ‘cause her brothers and sisters– she's very close to her brothers and sisters, and her mom too, so to have that at, like, conflict, at arm's length, instead of being in a different country, she can go to them when she needs something. My cousins and I, when we were growing up, we all kind of  grew up next to each other, so if someone needed a favor we were always there for each other. 

Yeah, because, um, there is this common theme with immigrants, that there is a loss of community? 

Oh no, yeah, that was definitely not present in my family. Yeah, the Bengali community in Paterson alone, is a big community there. I don’t know why Paterson, but for some reason, whoever the first family was in Paterson out of nowhere, over the years, all the Bengalis, they decided to move to Paterson. 

I hear ya, it’s a lot of Egyptians there, too. 

Yeah, there’s a certain– So, Paterson is the third largest city in New Jersey. And you have different sections, literally, so you have your sections with like, the Palestinians, Egyptians, and Turkish people, and then you have the Bengali people, and Spanish people, and then you have your African Americans, it's a very diverse city. 

Interesting. So give me a kind of a run down of where you have lived in New Jersey and what your experiences were like, in each place. 

Well I’ve only lived in, uh– Does college count? Okay, so if that's the case, I've been living in urban areas my entire life. I was born and raised in Paterson. When I went to college, I went to uh, Rutgers University, in New Brunswick. Outside of the college campus, New Brunswick is a pretty urban city. Um, yeah, like, there are neighboring suburban towns, so you see the vast difference between urban towns and suburban towns. But my experience, um, it's been a, it’s been a pretty good one. I can't really sit here and say that, oh, like, my family struggled. Because they struggled, yes, but it wasn't like we were homeless or anything, because I know, I did attend school with, uh, students whose families were– they were a lot worse off. You had your mix. You had kids who were extremely poor, living in extreme poverty, and you were just able to tell in the way they were dressed. We didn't have school uniforms or anything, so you were able to tell. And then you had the kids, you could just tell they were from stable families. They weren’t rich or anything, they were just making it by. And then, you know, had minority of kids here and there, who were kinda more well off. So it was all there, ‘cause Paterson, um, yeah it’s an urban town, but you still have your different income, families from different economic backgrounds all kind of clashing in one place. 

Yeah, the interesting place about New Jersey– it has some of the poorest, and some the richest areas, and they are literally side by side. 

The economic disparity is crazy. It’s um. Like I know Bergen County or Sussex County is the richest in New Jersey, and next to it is Passaic County, which is where I live, and it’s a night and day difference. The difference is pretty insane. 

When were you first exposed to that disparity? 

Um, I would say. I would say I started taking notice of it, probably eighth grade, freshman year of high school. When I would– when we would go to different towns, like Wayne and Clifton, the much more nicer towns. You can just tell the roads are better, the houses are nicer, they have front lawns, the trimmed front lawns where I grew up. I grew up right next to downtown Paterson. So, it wasn't the greatest area to grow up but it wasn't the worst either. I lived right next to this park called Lou Costello Park. Literally the park at night, you have a bunch of homeless people that stay there. So there is constant drug activity going on, constant broken bottles, drinking. It's not the ideal setting for kids to be growing up. Yeah, I did learn about certain drugs, alcohol, and drinking things, I shouldn't have known at a certain age, but I knew about it ‘cause it was there in front of my face. So as much as my parents tried to shield us from it, it was very hard because it was kinda all over. I lived in two separate parts of Paterson throughout my life. From the time I was born to up about sophomore year of high school, I lived downtown Paterson. And after that, for the next seven years, I was not in so much a better area, but it was better than where I spent majority of my childhood at. So if I were to describe my experience living in Paterson, one way to put it is, it made me a much more dynamic person, but it also exposed me to a lot that I probably otherwise wouldn't be exposed to at such a young early age. 

What was your extent of your exposure? 

It was definitely everywhere, even in the school, the elementary school I went to, the playground was never clean, there was broken bottles everywhere, needles. It was literally– you would think that it was a public school, they would have the area cleaned, but nope that was not the case. So um, like, we were exposed to not only drugs, but gang activity. Gang activity was very prominent growing up, so that was everywhere. So it was rough at time, but you just kind of learn to get through it, and stay away from the negative influences. 

I wanna know how you felt the first time you saw a needle in your playground? 

I remember questioning why the needle was there, because needles– you only see needles when you go to the doctor offices, right? So it’s like, how did a needle get over here? So then you start to question, why is the needle here? So I started to question, why was the needle here, and what was it used for? So that was my first experience, ‘cause I was so confused, like why was there a needle on the floor? I was too young to make the connection to like, it being used as a way to kind of inject drugs into your system, um– so I was confused. 

What kept you away? 

My mom. [Laughs] My mom. She was extremely strict. She had a really tight schedule, we had a eight o'clock curfew. We had to be in bed by eight o'clock. After school, she was the one to pick us up, she just– and I don't blame her, looking back, but she just ran a really tight ship with us, whether it came to our grades, our after-school activities, who we hang out– who we became friends with, who we were hanging out with, ‘cause my dad was working all the time. So my dad was barely home, so it was my mom that was kinda like, hands on with us. 

Why do you think she was so strict? 

Because she grew up in Paterson, she knew how it was. Um, she went to high school in Paterson as well, so she knew exactly how it was, and she wanted something a lot– obviously as any mother would, you want something better for your kids, then what you went through so. 

And your entire school experience was public school? 

Yup. Correct. 

You said you moved from your first spot in Paterson to a slightly– better– better spot, did you also switch schools at that time? 

I was in high school at the time, when we made the move. I was already in high school, I went to high school in Wayne, I didn't go to high school in Paterson. [Coughs] Excuse me. So I went to a vocational high school, so I had to apply to get in, and like I said, my mom ran a tight ship, and she didn't want us going to Kennedy High School. That is the high school, um, we would've ended up going to, if just based on where we lived, and proximity to the district we were in. She didn't want us going there, ‘cause that's where she went, and over the years, it got even worse than when she was in high school. So she definitely didn't want us going there, so she kinda like set everything up, so we applied to Passaic County Tech. And yeah, I applied and got in, and my grades were good enough. I got in and the rest was history. 

Hmm. Yeah, that sounds like your mom's experience growing up in Jersey made her a bit more savvy when it comes to directing her kids. 

Yeah, definitely. 

You said you are one of four boys? 

I’m one of four. I’m the oldest. 

Oh you’re the oldest. So can you tell me a little about being the oldest sibling? 

Um, so, you’re like, always– I was forced to grow up very quickly, ‘cause my mom always kind of– she always wanted a daughter, I always tell her this, she wanted me to be a daughter. She wanted her first to be a daughter, and obviously it didn't happen. So I kinda like always, kinda made it a point to make her not regret she didn't have a daughter, so I would always try to help her with whatever she needed, whether it was help with my younger brothers, or anything she needed around the house. Um, I would be there to help her. And because of that, my mom started giving me a lot of responsibilities. It had nothing, nothing– solely because I was the older sibling. It didn't matter how old I was, I was looking after my siblings at a young age. She would trust me to look out after them when they would go outside, and a lot of times she would trust me to babysit them when she wouldn't be home. Certain meals like eggs and stuff, I started learning at a young age, just because my mom– I would find little ways to help her out, like cutting onions or garlic, before she cooks. So yeah, I was forced to grow up at a very, very young age. 

So how old were you when you first started babysitting your siblings? 

Um, I was– seven years old. 

Wow, seven year old babysitter, that’s a baby babysitter. 

I know. I know. Because I have a, um, so I have a brother that's fifteen months younger than me, then my, uh, little brother, I’m five years older than him. So when I was, uh, six and a half, seven years old is when my mom had, yeah, let’s see if I’m doing the math right. Yeah, when I was seven years only, was when my mom had my second brother. 

What about the youngest one? 

The youngest one is, uh– I’m twelve years older than him, so he came, like, much later. 

And do you see a shift in the kind of lived experience your youngest brother has versus when you were, um, his age? 

Definitely. Um, by the time my youngest brother came around, it was me and two, two of my other brothers, so by that time my mom was a little more lenient. Um, she kinda, like, just trusted us to help him out, she was still there, but she wasn’t as, uh– she didn't run such a tight ship, the way she did with my brother who’s fifteen months younger, and me. It wasn't like that with the other two, because we were a lot older, so then it was like, alright, you guys know this better than I do, so you guys teach them, and show them the ways, and kinda show them around. 

Do you think that your family struggled more than when you were younger, then more your younger brothers when growing up? 

Um, it’s a little different. So my parents are divorced right now, so they are not together. So there was a shift, right. So when they were together, even the whole family dynamic had changed, so that included how the money was coming in. ‘Cause once my parents separated, then, uh, my mom got remarried. So, um, so now, like I said, the whole family dynamic changed so, like, because the way we would have originally been, a much closer family. Once the divorce happened, like, everything changed. My two younger brothers, half of their life yeah, they kinda grew up not having to worry about much, because my dad was there to provide. But after kinda like, the divorce happened, we are a lot older now than my younger brothers, so everyone’s kinda, like, on their own. So we don't really have that kinda, like, that safety net, like if we wanted to go back to my parents, and ask them for something, like, we wouldn't be able to do that. ‘Cause it’s not there. You get what I’m saying? Um, and like my brothers, they like, kinda struggling more than they should have right now, just ‘cause everyone is on their own right now. 

Interesting. We were talking about community, and the form of family and that provides a big support, and then you talk about this break in the family– 

Yeah, it changes everything. 

That it embodies more individualism, which means more hustle. 

Yeah, more hustle, pretty much.

How old were you when you got your first job? 

I started working my senior year of high school, so as I mentioned earlier, I went to vo-tech high school. So I was in the academy of medical arts at the time, I just gotten my certified nurse’s assistant license. So I was actually, I was actually making pretty decent money, for a senior in high school, I was making thirteen dollars an hour as a senior in high school, working as a certified nurse’s assistant. And that carried on into college, I would come back most weekends to work during the weekend, and I stopped working there, I wanna say, my junior year, when I was at Rutgers, I think I had quite. And then with my class schedule, and the amount of work that I had with my classes, was just impossible to go home every weekend and work. So I decided to focus on school and I uh, and I left. But yes, that was my first job, I started my senior year in high school. 

Would you say you've been financially independent since? 

Pretty much. Um, pretty much. Because even throughout college, you know– Yeah, my parents helped me out here and there. I did a work-study in college, and that's how I pretty much kept myself afloat. That and credit cards, but not a good idea, but yeah. 

They really trick you into that. 

Yeah, exactly. But yeah.

So tell me a little bit more about more balancing work and school, did you start work study your junior year after you quit, or were you working? 

Oh no, no. Work-study was from freshman year. So I was doing work-study during the week, and then I would go back home on the weekends, to work at the nursing homes. So uh, for a good two and a half years into college, yeah, I had, I had pretty much two jobs helping me keep afloat, but work-study is not really much, right? You have a certain stipend that you get, and you’re only allowed to make up to that amount, you can’t make more than that, so– and I think the stipend was a thousand dollars a semester, I think it was, or two thousand. Honestly, I don't remember entirely, but it was a limited stipend, and you couldn't go above the uh, whatever the limit was. 

Did you take out a loan for school? 

Yes I did. I took out, all together, about forty thousand in loans, um, right now. Yeah, forty thousand.

[Annotation 2]

Have you paid those off? 

No, not yet, I'm still working on it. It's a work in progress. 

So where are you today? 

So I am working. I’ve been working in Princeton, at this small consulting company, as a business analyst. I've been working there for the past two years now, and before that, I was unemployed for one year. That– that’s was when I was really struggling, because I had no source of income. I was, uh, constantly borrowing money from people to kinda, like, keep myself afloat. I was borrowing money from people to pay off bills. ‘Cause at the time, my brother and I– we already had our own apartment, so uh, some months– obviously bills have to be paid, electricity, gas bills. And uh, yeah, for six months, I was on unemployment, and even the unemployment check, that’s a week to week thing, and you 

get a check, and it goes to something that needs to get paid off. So you’re really not getting much from unemployment. Yeah, for a whole year I was out of work, and looking for work, it was a struggle. It was a really hard struggle. 

Tell me a little bit more about that year of unemployment– what was the issue in getting employed? 

Um, I’m not sure, honestly. I must have applied to more than a hundred positions, all kinda in the same realm. And I use to work for Memorial Cancer Center, as a session assistant, and I left there ‘cause it wasn't something that I saw myself doing. All I was doing was just kinda scheduling appointments for patients, so I decided to leave. Like, no, I just didn’t see much growth in the position, so I left. And, uh, probably not a good idea, ‘cause for the next year I wasn’t employed, but it ended up working out. During that year that I was unemployed though, it sucked because like, no health insurance. The housing, like, I was staying in the apartment yeah, but the monthly rent I was coming up with, was money I was borrowing from people. So um, I couldn't really take out a loan either, because I didn’t want to get into more debt, I’m already forty thousand in debt in student loans, so taking out a personal loan to try to help me, it just wasn’t an option for me. So you know, that, that was unfortunate. 

So have– kind of paid off your debts to the people who helped you? 

Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. As soon as I got my second job, within a few months I paid everyone off. I was very grateful they let me borrow the money in the first place, like letting a person unemployed borrow money, it’s like, you don't know if you’re gonna see that money back. Because you don't know how long it will take for them to find another job, and for them, even after they find another job, they have their own bills to pay for. And it’s like, you know, like, are they gonna be able to save up to pay me my money back? But– because it’s not like I was borrowing small amounts from people either, it was like five hundred at a time, a thousand at a time, so it’s like, it wasn't small amounts of money. So the fact that I had friends and family that was able to lend it to me, I was very grateful for that. 

Um, who exactly were your people who were really there for you at that time? 

My brother, a few of my cousins, and one of my best friends. He was, uh, he lended me quite a good amount of money while I was down and out, so. 

Where they all about your same age? 

Yeah.

Okay. And what made them be in a position where they could be there for you? 

They all had jobs. They were all working, they all had full nine to fives, so yeah, they were all employed making pretty good money. So they, they had no problems helping me out. 

How would you envision that year in your life without those people who supported you? 

Oh man. I honestly don’t know where I’d be, because I honestly don't know where the help would have came from. Like I’m, I’m a– I hate asking people for money to begin with, so for, like, me to ask people for money during that time was very hard for me. I honestly don't know where I would be. Because, um, like I said, taking out a loan was out of the– out of the question for me, so I have no idea where else that money would have came from, if they weren’t there. And it’s not like I was just sitting around and collecting unemployment either, every single day on indeed.com, monster.com, applying to twenty, thirty positions, every single day, only to not hear back, like at all. And you would think that’s not even the case, because you’re thinking to yourself, I shouldn't have a problem because I graduated from college. I have a college degree, and, um, you know, I already have some experience from the Cancer Center, it’s– it’s a big deal, it’s a very prominent cancer hospital, so you’re thinking to yourself, it shouldn't be that much of a problem getting in. But like, you know, then– nowadays, it really is who you know, it’s not what you know. Even the position I got at the Memorial Sloan Kettering Center was through somebody that was working there, so he kind of like gave me– I used him as a referral, and I got my foot in the door through him. And you know, I took off from there, and then that's when it really hit me. I was like, wow, like, in college, people used to tell me, like older friends I had would always tell me, it’s not what you know after you graduate, it’s who you know, and during that time, that saying couldn't be more, more like, truer. It really is the case. Because, like, I struggled. For a year, I was on my own, and when I was directly applying to jobs on my own, without any referrals from people who were already working at these companies, and I heard nothing, zero. Zero responses, and I would apply multiple times for the same position, and nothing. During that time, it kinda became very evident that saying– how long that goes. 

So you think the underlying issue with the unemployment, you just didn’t know the right people? 

Yes. That– Because one of the main requirements they asked for is that you have college education that’s relevant to the field you are applying to the job for, and I, you know, I got my undergrad in public health, and majority of the jobs that I was applying for at other medical colleges like, uh, Yale or NYU, kinda like the same positions to, kind of like what I had at the time. Just because, I realized after unemployment, I may have to go back to whatever I was not – Like, I left Sloan in the first place, because I didn’t like what I was doing, but I was like wow, I might have to actually go back to applying for the same position, because there was nothing else. With the public health undergraduate degree, there really isn't many opportunity out there to kind of like, have a good job, to have something relevant to what you want to school for. Unfortunately, I learned that lesson uh, kind of very late in the game, but you know, it’s a lesson learned, nonetheless. 

Yeah, I can’t even think of one undergraduate degree that you can come out of college with and, you know, be guaranteed to have a job in that field. 

Business. 

Really? A B.A. in business, that's all you need? 

I know a lot of my friends graduated with business degrees that had jobs pretty much ready for them the minute they graduated. 

Hmm.

Yeah. A lot of my friends that had no issues finding jobs after graduation, were all business majors. 

So does that mean that corporate is really the only answer for a straight shot stable job after college? 

I don’t want to say that it is, but, you know, it’s definitely one of the avenues, definitely. Because, you know, it’s 2018 right now. There are so many ways that you can make money, there is the entrepreneur route that’s becoming more and more people are looking into. I don’t want to say yeah, a corporate nine to five is definitely the way to go, but a nine to five is not for everybody. I’m working a nine to five now, and I hate it, but I’m just, like, kinda doing what I have to do to kinda like, set me up for the future with whatever I’m trying to do. So let’s see how it goes. 

What are you trying to do, why did you choose public health? 

So [laughs], it’s a funny story. Originally, I had intentions to go to medical school and becoming a doctor but somewhere along the line my goals and dreams just changed, and by the time I realized I actually I didn't want to go into medical school anymore, it was kinda really late. I was already in my senior year, fourth year and I was like, alright, so now what do I do, right? All this time, my whole life, I’m thinking I’m going to medical school, I’m going to become a doctor. I never thought my interest would change out of nowhere. I still ended up graduating with public health degree, because it was kind of late for me to go back and do something else at that. So I ended up finishing the degree and yeah, now I have a degree that I really can’t do much with. 

So what stirred that shift in interest? 

Um, I don't know, I think it was Organic Chem. Um, Organic Chem was not my best friend, I struggled with Organic Chem, and no matter how many office hours I went to after class, no matter how many lectures I went to, no matter how much I studied, I just didn't get it. Organic Chem, they say, at Rutgers is what usually kinda weeds the kids that really go to medical school, from the kids that go to medical school. So at least in my case, it ended up holding to be true. So, um, after Organic Chem, I was like, yeah, probably– my interest in science just went out the window after Organic Chem, to be honest with you. So yeah, my interests, they just kinda started shifting elsewhere too, just because of the way, how expensive it is to go to medical school, so it just kinda– like I just didn’t want to be in school that long either. It was a collective decision, based on a lot of factors, but mainly, Organic Chem not being my best friend. It was based on a few factors, I felt like it was best for me to not go this direction. 

How important is money in your, um, choice of career? 

It’s not the main driving factor. It definitely– it’s hard for it not to be one of the factors though, but it’s not the factor. I’d be lying if I’d say yeah, no, it’s not about the money. Like, you should try to get into something that you’re really really really interested in, then you are not really working, right? That’s what everyone strives to do. You just want to do something that you love, then it’s not really work. But yeah, money um, is definitely one of the factors, because I kinda have a certain idea in my head. I don't want to be rich, but I don't want to be poor either, I just want to at a point where money is not an issue. 

I feel like that means like, being rich. [Both laugh] To an extent. 

To an extent, yeah.

Just because it seems like money is always gonna be an issue. 

Yes, money will always be an issue, ‘cause we reached a point that the world runs on money. So all the major decisions– wars, everything, it’s all for money, everything that goes on. I don't mean to get into current events right now, but money is like, the driving force behind everything. 

And definitely in this country.

Definitely in this country, yes.

 And I kinda thought about that, when you were speaking about how since your father moved back from Bangladesh, he is working a lot less. 

He has a lot more leisurely lifestyle right now, as opposed to America. So it’s corporate America, [snaps fingers] so everyone’s like, on the move, everyone is hustling non-stop, you know. 

I’ve spoken to some people who are really trying to work within their passions, um, whether it be community organizing, or journalism, or what have you, and needless to say, none of them are making enough money. 

Yeah. I’m, uh. I’m not surprised. Yeah, no, I’m not surprised. Because, you know, a lot of times. Let me see. I have one friend– well, he’s not really a friend, he is a coworker, so he sings on the side. And he is a Pakistani singer, and I actually didn’t know this about him and he was telling us this the other day, I’m like, dude, I didn’t know that, why don’t you pursue that full time, that’s so much cooler than working nine to five in an office, and he is like, “No, I’m not making a lot of money. Singing is my passion, but it’s hard.” It kinda like circles back to what you were saying. People– It would be nice. Ideally, you should follow your dreams and passions, but like I said, it’s hard, ‘cause if there is no way to monetize your dreams and passions, um, then you are going to be struggling. Especially in America. Since, like, everything is so expensive, to, like, your living expenses, to your health care, to the food we buy, everything is expensive. So money I think, has to be, uh, one of those factors, and unfortunately, it shouldn't be like that, but unfortunately, we’re at a place where it has to be. 

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I think that demystifies the myth of, “you can be whatever you want to be.” You know, growing up, born and raised in America, we hear that. 

Yes. But I feel like that’s one of those false narratives, especially the millennials, we were fed that at a very early age, you know, yeah, follow your dreams, you can be whatever you want. It’s not so simple. It’s a lot more complicated than that. 

Can you speak a little more about generational aspects of our economic circumstances right now? 

Yeah, definitely. Um, I feel like– I feel like, uh, being a millenial, we are always viewed as like, uh, entitled, and we’re like– we’re struggling financially because we’re lazy, but I don't see that to be the case at all. Because, the way I look at it, the current final situation that we are in, is because of the generation before us. So it’s a direct result of their actions and responsibilities. So, whenever, you know, I hear that like, millennials are lazy, millennials just whine and complain ‘cause they feel entitled– like no, you guys fed us this false narrative our whole lives, kinda like, set us up for failure, and are expecting us to, kinda like, just shut up about it, and just accept things the way they are, and like, you know, but like, it’s not, that's– it’s not so simple. And we– the way I like to look at it, we have been, kinda in a way been set up for failure. You’re kinda fed this lie, right, your whole life, and it’s like, no, you– like, not everyone will be able to be, like, whatever they want, and do whatever they want, it’s not that easy. So–

What kind of– what could remedy that? What are some concrete actions that could help, you know, the millennial situation? 

At this point, I don't even think it’s a millennial situation, the poverty, that's just everywhere. I wouldn't say that, like, poverty is just a millennial problem, I think poverty is, is a problem for everyone. And, um, we– Like, we can start with uh, with increasing the, increasing the minimal wage, because you know, the minimum wage has been– I think what, in New Jersey right now is eight sixty? 

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Eight something. 

Eight something, But come on now, the minimum wage throughout the 1990's, most of 2000's was seven fifty, seven twenty-five, I think. And, uh, you have– so in twenty years, the minimum wage barely increased by two dollars, but then you have price inflation on everything. So that alone, there’s a huge disparity there. So you can’t increase the price of everything, and keep the wages of workers low. You’re gonna be working more hours, but you’re kinda chasing something you’re gonna be chasing forever, because the wages are just way too low. We’re at a– it’s 2018, and like I said, the minimum wage hasn't increased, I wanna say three dollars since 1990. But we can definitely start there, that would be one option I think. Number two, pay equity definitely. I think women still get seventy-eight cents to the dollar that men get paid, right? So we can start there and I think also, having changes to the criminal– to the, uh, to some of the laws that we have set in place. I know America as a nation, we have the highest rate of incarcerated citizens. Um, so the laws we have set up for people that have been incarcerated, it’s not friendly either, for them to go back into the workforce, after they get out, after they serve their time. I would also say, reform some of the criminal, some of the laws that we have, because a lot of the arrests are for some petty crimes, and a lot of people are serving unfair sentences. And, you know, like looking at the whole picture, it affects families in a lot of ways when a parent or like, a brother gets arrested, and gets locked up and doing time. That's income that they could bring into the family, but you lock them away, you lock them up for years, and on top of that, you prevent them from being able to easily get– to have a job after they get out, you’re kinda like, digging your own grave. So those three things we definitely, I think we should– we could start there to address the poverty issues. 

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Do you have any experience with the, um, justice system in this country that negatively affected your life, or someone that you know? 

Um. I have a– they’re not. So friends of my brothers, I do know. He has a few friends who are locked up currently, um, for marijuana related charges. So I do know– these are people, these are friends of his, he has kids. So because he is locked up, there is no breadwinner for the kids. So yeah, you have the mothers taking care of them, but they’re not, they’re not working, so the main breadwinner is locked up and away from the family. So it’s not only like– it’s not only an impact from an economic standpoint, it’s also like, an impact from a social standpoint as well. Because like, the father’s not there. And the father not being there for the children, I’m pretty sure people know by now, the effects that has on a child’s development, so yeah. 

So looking back on your personal journey, uh, what were the most important aspects to your getting out of financial struggle?

Um. To be honest, just being persistent. ‘Cause I remember during the time when I was unemployed, I was not doing any extracurriculars at all. I would not get out of my house, just because I was afraid to spend– I would spend money that I shouldn’t be spending. So I would just stay home, just be persistent to applying to jobs, and updating resumes and kinda like, just staying with it, you know. Trying to find different ways to put yourself out there, networking with people, that definitely helped me land my second job, um, so I would definitely say stay persistent with it. 

So, do you think everybody can eventually find opportunity through persistence? 

Well. It’s a little different for me though, right? Because I graduated from college, I have a college degree. I understand that not everyone has a college degree, so they are different programs set up, like they have job fairs, and different type of events set up to help people look for jobs. So no yeah, persistence, that was my, that was my way to get over the hump. But you know, for different people, like it’s– it will be kinda hard for me to say what is it that they can do. Because I feel like it’s very unique to each person’s situation. So the persistence, yeah, it applies to me, ‘cause I’m fortunate enough to be able to apply for jobs, because a lot of jobs right now require a college degree. So I would say it depends on a person's situation. I don't wanna sit here and say, you know, this is the definite way to you can kind of, get out of poverty, ‘cause I know everyone’s situation is different. 

How has your specific identity affect your financial situation, being the child of immigrants, having the name Mohammad Chowdhury? 

Yeah, I mean, being brown too, like, you know. You’re either expected to be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, those are the main three things, anything outside of that, you’re a failure, so– [laughs]. But no, you know, growing up in a Bengali household and seeing my dad work as hard as he did, it kinda of instilled that work ethic inside of me. So um, whenever, when times got hard, I just told myself that this is really not the time to kinda like, take a loss right now, you gotta like, you gotta get on it. That work ethic, the fear of struggling financially kinda, like just– that was more than enough to kinda like, drive me to like, you know what you gotta go, and grind, and you gotta figure this out. So yeah, that is pretty much what happened. 

I had something I wanted to ask, I’m just waiting for it to come back to me. How did you take care of your mental health while you were searching for a job and not getting any replies? 

I’m not gonna lie, I kinda did get into a little– was a little depressed. I wouldn't say I went into depression, but I was definitely depressed, because you know, every single day– it’s discouraging when you’re applying for jobs every single day, and it’s not like you’re applying to one or two jobs– I was applying from eight, ten, twelve jobs a day. And not hearing back and any response to that at all, it was very discouraging. So it takes a toll, you know, and you’re struggling to make ends meet, and you don't have source of income coming in, and the outlook just looks bleak, ‘cause you’re not hearing back any responses. It’s hard not to be depressed. Which is kinda why, like, I would never leave my house. I kinda like told myself, until I find a job, I’m not gonna hang out with anybody, I’m not gonna chill with anyone, I’m not doing any extracurriculars. I’m just gonna do me, I’m gonna focus on getting out of my current situation, that I was in at the time. 

So what were your coping strategies? 

Um. To be honest, just me– Well, I’m a huge sports fan, so like, any, any time I could get my mind away from it, even for a little bit, it was, it was enough to keep me sane. So like, I’m a huge basketball, football fan, so whenever I’d be watching my games– during the day, majority of the day, I’d stress out, I’d apply to jobs, and when seven, seven thirty came, um like, until I fall asleep, I’d just watch basketball, and kind of like, keep my mind off of it. So it was a cycle, like literally a cycle for me, repeat, wake up the next day, repeat the same thing. So me being able to kinda like, I guess divert my attention away from what I was stressing about at the time. Sports, basketball, and football are a very good outlet for me, for that. Physical activity too, exercising, that, that definitely– going to gym. I only used to leave my house to go to the gym. And obviously if I have to run errands and stuff, but um, working out and playing basketball too, that definitely kept my mind away from just being depressed twenty-four seven.

Did you have a gym membership at the time? 

No– uh, yes, I did. It was very cheap, it was ten dollars a month, so it was something I was able to afford. 

What was your diet like at that time? 

Oh man. Obviously very limited. I couldn't go buy what I wanted, I couldn’t really eat out as much as I’d probably want to, so I would stick to what I know how to cook, and stuff that was cheap, like eggs and chicken. So it wasn’t, like, a very diverse diet. I was pretty much eating the same thing everyday, but you do what you have to do when you’re struggling, and you know, you kind of like, do what you have to do to make ends meet. So, if that’s what I had to do at the time– 

So what you had to do was not eat out? 

Not eat out, not spend– even when I would go food shopping, everything was on a budget. I couldn't get things that I wanted to eat, outside of the main, you know, the chicken, eggs, rice. The things that I would mainly eat. I was trying not to let my diet go down the drain, and I was trying to stay away from junk food at the time, ‘cause as much as I– I have a really bad sweet tooth. So whenever I go shopping, it was very hard not buying a lot of cookies and stuff like that. But you know, it also helped, ‘cause like I said, I was on a budget, and had to stick to the budget very strictly because– otherwise I wouldn't eat, you know. But my mom– living close to her helped me out a lot too. Whenever she would cook, obviously she would tell me to go over, and sometimes she would cook extra food and pack extra for me, ‘cause she knew that I was struggling. So having my mom there was very helpful. 

And um, I would imagine it was very important to take care of your health since you didn't have health insurance at the time, as well. 

Yes. 

Was there ever an occasion you felt sick? 

Fortunately, no. Yeah, fortunately, no. I was fortunate enough during that time not to have fall ill or fall sick, anything. Like, I had no reason to go to the doctor. ‘Cause it would've been very unfortunate, ‘cause I didn't have health insurance at the time, and as we all know, the cost for services here is really expensive, so I would've probably have to pay like, an arm and leg. So no, I’m thankful for that, I didn’t fall sick at that time. 

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What’s your mode of transportation? 

Um, at the time it was public transportation, so, like, buses. Lucky I didn’t have to go anywhere too far, so, like, even if I did have to, I would get a ride from someone who had a car. I would just ask them, you know, if they would be kind enough to do it for me. So those are the main two things, I was pretty much able to get around. Or walking, too. I walked a lot during that time. 

And you don’t have any dependents that you need to worry about. 

No.

So you only had to keep yourself afloat at that time, and that was even just taking care of yourself was unattainable really, at that moment. 

It was hard, yeah. It was very hard, so you know– and that’s just keeping myself afloat, so I can only imagine families going through this. You know, it’s more than one person you have to worry about, you’re not just thinking about yourself, so. 

Um, where do you see yourself in the next two years?

In the next two years? So, right now, I’m working as a business analyst. I’m trying to kind of take that next step, and go work as a project manager, but before that happens, I need to go for a few certifications that I need to go for, so I’m working on that now, through my job. Hopefully I’m married within the next two years, um. [Laughs]. 

His girlfriend is in the room with us. 

Yeah, hopefully I’m married, and we have our house, because we are planning on buying a house soon, after we get married. So hopefully all that is attainable in the next two years, that’s what I’m working towards right now anyway, so let's see how that goes. 

How optimistic do you feel? 

Very optimistic. Um, very optimistic, uh, just because the situation I’m in right now, I’m in a pretty good situation. So. Unless something– Unless I mess this up really, really bad, I don't see it going sideways in any ways. So far, the plan that I made for myself, everything has been going according to plan, so far. So, so far, so good. 

What words of advice would you have for kids that you went to school with in Paterson, who are still living in that urban setting, still trying to get on their own two feet? 

I know it’s hard, but luckily we are at a time, there are many different avenues in which you can make money from now. You know, like, yeah, education is very important, but thankfully it’s not the sole– if school is not for you, and you’re not able to afford school, which is completely understandable, there are other routes. There are people working for themselves. Like, there are different ways that you know you can figure out, to monetize and try to bring in money. What I would advise, to kind, like, find what it is that you kinda want to do and what it is that you can do, and roll with it. Be persistent, set goals for yourself, and have a plan, and stick to that plan, and just go for it. 

How does one get into the right circles? You mentioned knowing people– who you know is more important than what you know. 

Just seeking out, like different networking events, so cater to what you’re interested in. And everyone nowadays has Facebook, right, so you can go on Facebook, and look for networking events, social events. Kind of just market yourself out there, you know. That’s it. Networking is a– people often overlook it, but it’s extremely important in today’s world. Um. Networking, uh, it can make or– literally make or break your– kinda like, the direction you are trying to go in your field, networking can make or break that.

Who are you networking with? 

Other professionals. So I’m a business analyst, so I network with other business analysts, uh, project managers, and the two verticals we mainly work in, are pharmaceutical companies and publishing companies. So we’ll go to these different conferences– the conference that I told you about earlier, I’m going to next week, it’s called the CHESS conference, and that’s a conference of all doctors. So I'm gonna be probably be talking to some doctors over there. So it’s kind of like, you find that niche, and kinda like, run with it. 

So you’re meeting people who are successful in what you want to do? 

Yes, exactly. You kinda like, look out for people or circles that are already currently at a place where you want to be at. Um, I think those are the types of people you need to surround yourself with and kinda like, start talking to, because you know, they usually have very sound advice, and good ideas they can pass off, you know, different things for you to try, or haven't thought of, or you just haven’t done. Talking to those people give you a different perspective, and you can kinda see how they’re thinking, and how they approach problems, how they approach different situations. Those are things you can kinda like adopt. And it’s only helpful, it’s only beneficial, networking is only advantageous, there’s not really a con to it.

I think the only thing is, there needs to be a certain level of access that you need to have to even get into those circles. 

I mean, they have networking events that are open to the public. So it’s just not networking corporate, they have networking events that are strictly open to the public. You know. Like say, if you want to do freelance work, there are networking for freelancers for that. Let’s say if you want to work on your own, and build a website, there is a whole community in that. A little research is all that it takes. 

How do you feel about that statement, "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps." 

Uh, it’s– [laughs] Who else is gonna do it for you, right? It’s kinda like, you have to be that person to kind of like, push yourself. Sometimes we can like, we derail off, and like, you need that extra push from somewhere else. But for the most part, that push needs to come from within. So if that push, if that drive doesn't come from within, then you just, you’re gonna have a hard time being successful, in like, whatever you’re trying to do. 

How true is the statement, “You need to have money to make money.” 

That statement is a very true statement. It kind of goes hand in hand with, “the rich get richer.” But you know, there are instances you hear about, very rarely, where people started from nothing and they get there, but like, how often do you hear of those stories. As opposed to like, you see the Trumps of the world, or the Rockefellers– all the wealthy families, it’s usually always in the family, whether is passed down from generation to generation. Or like, even you know like the Kardashians, it’s all kind of like, within the family. So the statement, you definitely do need money to make money, but it doesn't necessarily mean because you don't have money, you can’t make money. So.

How successful do you think you will be at providing that type of safety net for your future family? 

The current– If I stick to my current plan that I have in place for myself right now, there shouldn't be any problems. Like I said, I’m trying to reach a point where money is not an issue. Um. Like I said, I don’t intend on being rich per say, but um, just being at a place where money isn't an issue, and if I kind of follow through with that plan I have in place right now, I shouldn't have a problem getting there. 

Do you plan on staying in New Jersey? 

Some days I wake up, and I'm like, I want to leave Jersey, and go somewhere West. But other days, it’s like, you know. When we go– we just got back from Colorado, first time we went to Colorado, we were in Denver, we were like, oh my god, it’s so beautiful, I love it, I want to live here, I want to come back. And we went back, and it’s like, it wasn't the same. You know, it’s like, wow, I really miss Jersey, I miss home. So yeah, so like some days, I wake up, like I want to leave Jersey. But other days, I’m like, I don’t know if I want to leave Jersey. My whole family is in Jersey, everything I know is in Jersey, I grew up, my whole life has been Jersey, so yeah, I guess I would have to get back to you. Because I don’t have definite answer for you on that. 

Yeah, because America is expensive, but some parts are definitely more expensive than others. I grew up in Kentucky, and I can tell you that the money we pay for rent or mortgage out here could get you a totally different type of living situation down there. 

The cost of living down, like in the southern states is a lot less then up here, so. 

So I guess that's a sacrifice you would make to stay in New Jersey? 

Yeah, exactly. I mean, we’ve, I’ve definitely thought of moving out of America entirely, but then it’s like, moving to a different country is a very big move. To come to that decision, I know it’s gonna take a lot. But it’s been a thought in my head, and I’m not completely ruling it out. 

What's your impotence for leaving America? 

Um, just the direction in which everything is going, the country is going in right now. Not to get into politics, I'm not too happy with the current state of the way everything is currently, in America, so. 

So, although you feel optimistic about your personal future, you don't necessarily feel the same way about the country’s future? 

Nope. 

Could you tell me a little bit more about that? 

I have a bleak outlook on that, just because I feel like Trump getting elected to office, it just set the country back by like, so many years. One thing that was very evident, after Trump got elected, was there are still a very big number of racists– closet racists you can call them, because they came out of the woodwork, in a way, after Trump got elected. It makes you think all these years, we are moving towards and abolishing, kind of, racism, and moving towards gender equality, racial equality, but I feel like the election of Trump, it definitely set us back, and now there's a clear picture of what was going on. What we thought America was, America’s definitely not that, so we definitely have a great ways to go to improve as a country, and a nation. But this definitely does set us back. And I'm not too optimistic about the outlook of it, because I feel like this created a bigger problem indirectly, um, you know, with the whole “Make America Great Again,” right? It’s kinda noted right now, “Make America Great Again,” it’s synonymous to “Make America White Again,” right? And I don't mean to get into this whole topic, but I just, I feel like it sets us back as a nation, definitely. 

How do you feel that will play out for people’s on the ground, quality of life, of the economic situation in this country? 

If the situation just happens to worsen, which I hope it does not, um, I don't see any situation where the economy will flourish under those circumstances. I’m a believer if you want the economy to flourish, right, you need not only people working together, but you need to find a way to create more jobs and uh, more opportunities for people kinda to make money to contribute to the economy. But if you have people who can't get along for the simple fact that you’re a different race, then we can’t really progress together, we can’t really work together and move as a country forward together, so, yeah.

So you kind of bring up social inequality in America, in New Jersey a lot. Where do you find yourself within the social outlook here? 

As in like, what? Social, economic class would I identify myself? 

Well, how about, how would you identify yourself? Period.

Um, I am a very uh, I’m like, very– my views, I would align more I guess, with liberal views. I’m also a believer, like, there should be gender equality, health care should be, like, we should get free– we shouldn't be paying an arm and leg for health care. I think everyone should have equal opportunity to go out, make their money and chase their dreams. 

[Annotation 5]

Did you feel like you had an equal opportunity? 

Um. For the most part, yeah. Um, but you know, growing up, you sometimes– you do– Like when I got to Rutgers, for example, coming from an urban school system, you see the effects of it. You know, so like was it really equal, did we have the same equal opportunity in education? It didn't hit me until I really got to college that the urban school system, um, and there are vast differences between the urban school system and suburban school system, so um, that's when it really hit me. So, um, so yeah.

What was that moment for you, like, when it hit you, some of your peers had lived totally different lifestyles. 

I was like oh man, like, I thought, am I really, am I not equipped to be in college, right now? The same way that these kids were equipped. Their school curriculum was a lot different from what our school curriculum was like. So a lot of the skills that you should have by the time you get to college, we were still lacking some of those skills, just because we were from an urban school system. So it was definitely a wake up call. It was definitely, uh, kind of like, you need to work harder than the next person, because they are already kinda, like, a few steps ahead of you. So you need to work harder to catch up. So it’s like that mentality. The minute I realized it, that was the mentality that kicked in, and stayed with me, throughout my time at Rutgers. 

[Annotation 6]

So it was your experience in urban public schools that made you feel like you were less equipped than some of your peers? Did anything else contribute to that um, kind of disillusionment that you had? 

Um, I wouldn’t say so. 

Other than your education? 

I mean, you see the economic changes as well, but that's something that I felt I was always aware of. Um. There is definitely economic disparities, but yeah. That’s something I came aware of at a pretty early age. It’s the differences in the school systems, that’s what really caught my eye, and was like, like an ah-hah moment for me, you know. It was like, I didn’t know why I didn’t think of this earlier. I guess when you’re in school you're like, we don't have the resources we to be learning what we’re learning. You’re not really thinking of that, you’re just learning. And then you go to college, and then they are saying, you should know how to do this, you should know how to write a certain way, and certain maths, and subjects, and it’s like, I don’t know this. Is it just that we went to bad schools, or was it that the curriculum was set up for us that way? Yeah. 

So your college experience was your first exposure to a different reality? 

Definitely. Being in college, uh, it opened my eyes a lot more. It forced me to kinda like, look at things through a different lens. Before I got to college, I wasn't really– uh, everything was kinda like– one dimensional. I wasn't really, I wouldn’t really question things, because whatever I– whatever was in my surroundings, I just thought it was normal. But then you start seeing differences, and obviously in college, it’s a whole mix of kids. I was exposed to you know, being like, being from an urban school system, we mainly went to, all my classes were with kids of color, I never really had classes with, you know, white Americans. Then you go to college, and all your classes are white Americans, so it’s like, you know, a huge culture shock, in a way, you know. 

So how would you imagine your mentality, or your worldly view would be different, if you had not gone to college and been exposed to that reality? 

Um, I mean, it probably would have definitely made me, it would have made me a little more, a little more closed-minded. I feel like being in college alone, kind of like, opened up my eyes so much. You know, like, it made a much more open-minded person. There is so much out– so much more out there to the world, and just not what’s in Paterson, so it definitely opened my eyes up, I would say. 

Sounds like education is really important to–

Yeah, definitely is. 

A level of empowerment. 

Yeah, definitely is.

Is there anything else you would like to add? 

Um, I mean, you know. Like, I know being in poverty obviously sucks. All I will say is, just, you know, stay with it. Just, stay with it, and stay persistent. And there are– you know, little research goes a long way, just go out there, just put yourself out there, market yourself out there, network, talk to people. Try to become friends– become acquaintances with people who are in a position that you want to be in. So um, that would definitely be my advice. 

What if somebody doesn't have a job, but they have bills to pay, and they need to eat, but they also, you know, need to network, and need to have access to research, and need to be persistent at the same time– how does this person do all of that? 

Like I said, it’s hard, um, you know, you just, you have to set a plan for yourself that allows you to do everything. Um, because you know, when, when times get tough, you kind of just have to up it a notch, and do what you have to do to not be in the situation, to kind of get out of the situation as soon as possible. SO, you know, I would just say to create a plan, come up with a plan and stick to the plan, to kind of just get you out. It’s really important to have a plan, is what I’m trying to say, it’s something I’ve learned over the past few years. It’s very important, and to stick with it. 

You mentioned if you didn't have those people to help you out during that year when you were unemployed, and you had bills to pay, you don't know where you will be. 

I don’t. I also– I don’t– I have no idea where the money would have been coming in to pay my bills, so I could have easily been evicted, I could have been homeless. So yeah, it sucks, but thankfully I’m, I’m grateful that I have family and friends that were there for me when I really needed them. 

Me too. 

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you for coming out here and sharing all of this with me. 

Thank you for having me. It was fun. 

I’m glad you had fun.