Erica Cirulli lives in Philadelphia and talks about her experience as a trans woman. She discusses how she has approached the social, legal, and medical components of transitioning.
“I can’t tell you how afraid I’ve been of being trans my whole life—and now coming out—and it’s like none of it turned out to be true.”
ANNOTATIONS
Annotations coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by John Keller
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
June 13, 2018
Transcription by Gloria Nunez-Cardona
(00:00:00)
Alright great, so this is John Keller with CoLab Arts and the Rutgers Oral History Archive, it is June 13th at about 1 o’clock in the afternoon, and today we have an oral history interview with
Erica Cirulli
Great and, ah, Erica, um, uh, we’re here in Philadelphia now
Mhm
But where were you born?
I was born in Princeton, New Jersey
Okay
Yeah. I grew up, I spent most of my life in New Jersey, then went to school at University of Delaware, and after that, when I graduated, I moved to Philly and I haven’t moved since.
So when you were, um, when you were, uh, when you were first born, um, were you living in Princeton, or were you born in Princeton or–
I was just born in Princeton Hospital. We were living in Kendall Park, Monmouth Junction are, um– My parents– and then– and then we moved to Lawrenceville for like three years and then when I was seven my parents split up and we moved– back to Kendall Park and I lived there from like age seven or eight to basically eighteen when I went to school. Mhm.
And, uh, when you were– so, you said when you were first born it was, uh, your parents were together and were there any siblings or–
Ah, yeah, I have a younger brother. He is– just turned, 25, I believe, yeah. He just turned 25. He lives in LA now but, um– So he’s, what, like three– four years younger than me.
Mhm
Mhm
What was life like at home, I mean, what were some of your earliest memories?
Oh man, that’s a good question, some of my earlier memories. I admittedly don’t have the best memory I would say of my younger years, um– I remember a lot when my parents were together, they were, you know, they would fight a lot, um [Small Pause]. This was in, like, our Lawrenceville home, um– So I remember they would fight a lot and, you know, I had a very close bond with my brother, we would argue and fight like siblings do, um, but, you know, we always had a pretty good relationship, and then I remember, actually like I was upset at first, but I remember not being terribly upset that my parents split up just because I didn’t really think they were good for each other, even at seven I was able to make that observation. Um, but if I were to tell you right now my earliest memory– it’s kind of– it’s not even fully there, but I remember just this feeling like I was playing with one of my youngest friends, um, and just, you know, we would be playing like. [Exhales] I don’t even know what we were playing but whatever scenario, whatever like, you know, role playing, or like, you know, just kids being kids scenario, like, I would always want to be the girl, um. In any kind of like scenario that we were doing, so that’s just, you know, I long forgotten about that but it came up when I was doing a lot of like dig–
(00:03:03)
dipping– digging deep, um– you know with– you know with various therapy sessions over the years, but that’d probably be my earliest memory.
Did you, um, were you close with any other kids growing up, or did you have a network of friends in your neighborhood or–
Yeah, um, so I had– I was lucky to have number of close friends, um, growing up that– two of which I met in preschool, two of which I met in– like, grade school like fourth grade, so for twenty to twenty five years I’ve known these guys and, you know, we were all at the time grow– in our upbringing– upbringing we were all the oldest brothers of a family of all boys which I thought was, and it’s still interesting, I mean it’s not true anymore but I think it’s– it was still interesting, um, so I actually just saw a bunch of them, yes– no, Sunday, one of them got engaged so I’m still close with a lot of my, like, oldest friends. The one from the memory I mentioned I no longer am close with him but that wasn’t like a falling out with regards to, like, being trans, it was just, you know, friends falling out, so–
Um, and then, uh, you remember starting school?
[Inhales]–I remember pre-school a little bit, um, I remember my favorite color was pink, I remember loving apple juice and I remember– vague kind of memories if I were to say like elementary school– do I really remember it? I remember, like, tying my shoes, I remember just trying to fit in and be a kid I guess, you know. Not– nothing too specific really, I kind of ‘em upset about how little I remember about specific things when I was younger, but I remember vividly my elementary school had this gigantic playground which, if I were to visit now as like an older person I would probably be let down because I have this, you know, being kid-size you think is huge, so I think I wanna keep that memory the way that is [laughs]
Ah, so what was school like when you were– what was elementary school like for you?
Um– I remember mostly fourth grade in terms of, like, elementary school or, like, fifth and sixth a little bit– just– it seemed relatively normal, you know, I always had from like age five or younger I always had these feelings of wanting to be a girl but I never brought it up. I just kind of became, like, at hiding things so like, for me just trying to be a normal boy, I say that in quotes, um. It was relatively normal, I think I adjusted to being– compared to other trans people I’ve met, I adjusted better to being like, you know, stuck in the wrong body than others. I just kind of like, was just like, alright this is the reality of the situation, I was born this way and there’s really nothing I could do about it so, you know, just kind of, do what you should do. That was like always my mind set, like I was very logic–base, ah, focus so, um, it was always like one challenge to the next one thing to do after the next, one grade ,one school, one, whatever, exam, I was just always focused on what I had to do to keep myself distracted with whatever was going on, um. I do how remember– I do however remember in those years, like, I would get home a little bit before my younger brother would and everyday when I would get home from school while my mom was out getting my brother I had like fifteen minutes to go, like, try on like some of her clothes or whatever. I just remember always being drawn to this stuff but never being able or feeling comfortable enough to tell anyone about it so, on the surface, and I know I’m talking a lot, but on the surface I would say childhood was pretty normal you know– normal, on surf– you know, on the surface, underneath there were some problems brewing but, you know, I had friends, I did sports, or band, I did, you know, seemed like a relatively normal childhood.
(00:07:32)
What was it like when your brother came along?
Hm?
Remember, what was it like when your younger brother came along–
Oh, I, so–
Do you remember any big changes?
I was like three and a half. I don’t really remember too much– like feeling different, like I don’t have memories of before my brother basically, um, so, I mean, I, uh– from what I’ve heard I always loved having a brother, a younger sibling, um, you know we would fight growing up, um, but, I think over time, you know, as long as we never said anything that was– you can’t take back or did anything you can’t take back which we didn’t but I think it kinda made us closer, like we had problems between us at certain times and we would work to overcome them and just became closer, um. My mom is also super close with, like, her sister, um, and it’s just the two of them so she always wanted us to be close and, I would say, you know, I would definitely say we are close now. Um. It was funny, ‘cause like I said, we were always like bicker and stuff when we were younger, we’d always– I would– I would pick my battles at my dad’s house because he was the older too and he would usually side with the older sibling and he would pick his battles at my mom’s house for the exact opposite reason, she was the younger one, so she would usually side with him, so that was– I definitely remember that, it was funny. [chuckles]
You mentioned that early on you had some– you had feelings about being in the wrong body or– then you also, like, had experiences of going home and getting dressed up. Were there ever any moments early on when you had– when someone asked you any questions about it or when–
I never told anyone about it until like– I don’t know why I never told anyone about it and I go back to like my childhood and– and, like, is there something I could have or should have done differently. I said numerous times since transitioning last year, like, I’m 28 now, was born in ’89, um, like I always say if I were born, you know, fourteen years later or, you know, thir– thirteen whatever number of years later, I would be transitioning still in 2018, 2017. I would just be younger, like, I think I feel– I felt comfortable– or who knows, you know, I– I– I don’t know if I can make a statement like that, um, I remember thinking these things but not really knowing what being trans was or knowing it was a thi– like it was not well known in the ‘90s, at least not where I grew up or the circles that I was in. Like it just wasn’t– no one ever talked about or if it was, it was like, you know, some celebrity or, um, you just never heard about it, so I always just told myself I was a cross-dresser, I just like the clothes, that is what I told myself. Which is true, I was always drawn to those clothes, um, you know, the colors, the patterns, the textures, I just love everything about being woman in addition to the clothes but I would say– also I would tell myself I was a cross-dresser because I was afraid of what transitioning meant. You know when I eventually did learn that it was a possibility I didn’t want to accept that that was my– future, I was terrified so, it took a long time, like years and years and years and years, like, for me to realize that just because you are afraid of transitioning it doesn’t mean you’re not trans, it just means your tran– you know, you’re probably trans just afraid of transitioning which is also very [Pause] what’s the word I’m looking for. It makes sense to be in that position, it makes sense to be afraid– to be afraid of this so, um, I kinda forget the question, I’m sorry–
(00:11:39)
No that’s fine–
Um–
So– so just going back to your, to like, for– childhood too. So you were living with both your parents until you were seven. What do you– what do your parents do?
Um, my mom was self-employed but also when– when they first split up she was a concierge at the Marriott on Route 1 and Forrestal which is now the Westin, um, so like Thurs– Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays she would work there, um, but she wanted to be stay-at-home mom for my brother and I during the week, um. My dad, he’s in derivatives, he’s extremely smart, extremely hard working like work-a-holic to his very very core. Um, and I would say he was probably one of the top people in the world at what he does and it’s just like derivatives, hedging, trading stuff, like, he’s very good at it, but right now he lives in Alabama but that’s only for like the past eight years, um. So I think he’s always been doing derivatives, like, even when I was younger. That was just, like, his passion, hmm.
So, uh, were there any other, uh, or were you– Did you have any grandparents around or other kind of extended family that you spend a long time with?
So, um, when I was younger, my– when I was born and I guess, no, by the time I was one my dad’s mom had past, she past well before I was born, but my mom’s dad past when I was like ten months old so, my mom’s mom was alive and my dad’s dad was alive and he was dating this other woman who was basically– I was basically raised with her as my grandmother because my biological grandma died like in 1980 so, you know, some time after that whatever, you know, I was raised with this woman as my grandma so, I had, you know, I had grandparents. I have, um, my parents were both one of two children so I have, like, an aunt and an uncle on each side of the family um– and– I– have a pretty big family on my dad’s side. I’m the oldest of, like, fourteen or fifteen cousins, though like my dad’s dad eventually married that woman who was my grandmother and, you know, she has four kids so, between them there’s like six of their step-children, and then between all of them there’s fourteen or fifteen of, like, the grandchildren which I’m the oldest of. And then my mom’s side’s a lot smaller. Just two kids, they each had two kids so it’s like just us, and one of those cousins now has a child who’s four– five? Four or five and it’s been interesting dealing with her through this transition, um. She was like [retells the story through while laughing] “Erica why, um,” wait what did she say, “why are you a girl when you use to be a boy,” and I’m like oh boy like, I don’t know how to, like, explain this to, like, a child, it’s like go talk to mommy and daddy basically I was like– I point to my heart– I was like, “I’ve always known I was a girl on the inside so, you know, I figured it was time to let myself out,” or I forget how I phrased it but, she’s very sweet though.
Are you really close with any of your cousins or–
Uh, I’m very close with my– well she’s older than me, but of, like, my two cousins that are both older than me, she’s the younger one. Amanda, um, she, uh, she’s 32 now, and I’m not too close with her older brother who’s 36 or about to be 36, um, he’s the one with the child, Leilah, uh. And on my dad’s side of the family I’m not terribly close with them, they all live up in, like, the Yonkers area, like Westchester, New York, Westchester County so, um, I see them for, like, holidays and stuff. I wish I were closer with them but I’m hoping, like, I’m really hoping my transition will make it easier to be closer with people. I think I’ve always had this guard or this
(00:15:55)
filter up to never let anyone really get too close because I never wanted people to find out anything about me that I didn’t want them to find out– I know that that’s kind of all out there and in the open, like I’m in a better place about, you know, I actually want to connect with people, you know, it sucks saying that as my former self, like as a guy, I didn’t want to connect with them or be close with them friends, family whatever but that’s the truth, you know, it eventually got to that point. Um, so I think– I think it’ll definitely make me closer to a large number of people in my family, I already think I’m a better person to be around, I can be a little bit snarky and sassy [chuckles] but it’s better than being like a dick, you know, like kind of how I use to be or was getting to be towards the end of my time as a guy so–
So, um, uh, so when you’re– do you kind of have memories of, or– or any– anything that you wanna say about the– when your parents split up, like, what that kind of transition was like–
Um, I remember being happy that we were moving back to Kendall Park from Lawrenceville. A lot of my older friends who I’ve met in preschool that I mentioned before, um, they lived in Kendall Park and, you know, we had maintained the friendship, you know, thanks to my– thanks to our parents for setting up playdates but, like, we had maintained a friendship when I was in Lawrenceville and I was happy to be moving back, I honestly was, how do I phrase it, like I don’t wanna say relieved, I just thought it made sense that my parents were splitting up. I was upset at first and, you know, I would cry about it because it’s obviously an upsetting thing to do, I’m not gonna say that it was all like sunshine and like rainbows or whatever but I very quickly realized that it made sense, um, it was just weird being like the only one of my friend group, or even within my family that had divorced parents. I know the rate is closer to, like, fifty percent or even more for divorce rate but like in my group, in my circles, it was not, um, we were like the only ones, my brother and I that had divorced parents or at least I was the only one of my friend group that had divorced parents. So it was just a little weird, um, especially being a little kid when you’re, like, trying make plans on the weekends and, like, I was going to my dad’s house one weekend and like he didn’t live too far, it was only really five or ten minutes, and he lived that close for my brother and I, but we wouldn’t be, like, in the same neighborhood or we would have to, like, arran– you know, it was just more difficult and I would say with holidays too– you know, going from one side of the family then to the other side as it was before like either of both sides would just come over also like getting– I’m jumping ahead to like adulthood but then when you come back from school and you have a limited break it’s like okay, I have to see the mom in that side of the family, the dad on that side of the family it just– you– it took– it took a lot of scheduling and coordination just to make sure that you, like, appease both parents who were at times very hard to appease, um– Not in terms of like, hard to appease for like my brother and I, but they always had it out against each other, like thought one was getting a better deal than the other, you know, neither was the case so, um– but yeah in terms of like I think it was a distraction of feeling like I wanted to be a girl for a little bit, but that quickly went away. I would say it like ebbed and flowed in my life at certain times, um, there were times like I could put– it was usually always there, always there, like, in the back of my mind, like fifty percent– the way I phrase it like fifty percent of my mental energy at any given moment was spent thinking about that, and ignoring it, and tying to, like, make sure whatever I said didn’t in anyway indicate that I was like trans or trans-leaning or a cross-dresser or whatever, and up until age 27 I was really successful at that [chuckles] like, no one– no one fucking knew unless I wanted them to, which I didn’t, um, with the exception of when I was thirteen. I was trying on my step moms clothes– so dad got remarried
(00:20:30)
when I was like 12 or 13 and, um, which is whatever, um, but one thing I did like about that was her clothing section was, like, amazing and I know now– and I’m old enough now to realize that snooping around in my mom’s and step-mom’s closets is disrespectful and shouldn’t have been done but whatever, I was a kid trying to figure out him/herself at the time whatever, trying to figure out theirself and just exploring this feeling so, anyway, fast forward, I got caught when I was like thirteen and, um, I was so embarrassed– like, like, insanely embarrassed and I just wanted to brush it under the rug. They sent me to therapy, but I remem –
What happened?
Hm?
What happened, how were you caught?
So, they were, like, outside it was, like, a risk they weren’t even, like, gone they were just, like, outside or whatever and I was, like, just trying to– like I was getting risky, I guess, and I was just trying to, like, sneak in and wear something, I don’t know. So I went to her closet, and they had known. I guess that like– I think they set me up because they had known that, like, I think I wasn’t that careful when I went to put her clothes back, so they knew things were out of order. She’s very like meticulous, things have a place and when they’re not in that place is like okay, what’s going on and, because my brother’s the artsy one in the family [laughs at this], they kinda thought it was him but no one– you know, me being the logical, practical, pragmatic accountant brehbrehbrehbrehbreh [Transcriber Note: the breh’s are the subject imitating what they just described] kind of person like, no one ever would have thought it was me but, it was, you know– very– it was– it was– how long was I doing it for? Months probably, but anyway they like basically set me up, they went outside and said they weren’t gonna be back for a while, and then they were, and then, like, I just, like, ran, back to my room, but like they clearly saw me and I was just like I changed back, I was crying, I was embarrassed, like part of me doesn’t remember everything because like those kind of memories you just block out. Like I think that was my sophomore year of high school and as a year, like that whole year, I don’t really remember and, like, trying to think back to it like why that year– like maybe that’s when, like, puberty started and, like, testosterone produc– production increased and, like, I was just not in a good place. Like, I remember always being a good student, always being a good student and I, like, was at risk of failing a class that year, like things were taking, like, a nose dive when I turned thirteen and I just had to like write the course, do what needed to be done. Going back to, like, getting caught wearing my step mom’s clothes, they like talked to me asked if I was gay, ask, like, you know, because that’s what you thought back then most people even now still think that, um, they asked, you know, if I wanted to be a woman and, like, I had said no just ‘cause like my initial reaction,, like, being so far in the closet at that point I was like, I would never go into it with that, not at the time, again, maybe like if I was like fourteen or thirteen in– now, but not then, um, because I didn’t know what that would mean, like, so what if I wanted to be a girl, wha– then what, you know, like, wha– what was I gonna, like, go to school wha– I don’t know, just like back then, and like early 2000’s it didn’t even seem like a realistic possibility that something that I could want. Um, they sent me to therapy, they thought it was, like, trauma from, like, the divorce or something else or whatever, we talked about a lot of shit, but– and I don’t really remember that therapy experience, I think because I literally blocked it out of my mind, um, what I really
(00:24:33)
remember was admittedly saying that like it was all just a phase, an experiment and, you know, it wasn’t going to happen again. And I– you know, I wish I was strong enough back then to say what I needed to say, but on the other hand everything happens for a reason and maybe I wouldn’t be– well I certainly wouldn’t be where I am today if, you know, I look at that watershed moment in my life and, like, what if I took the other fork, you know, things could be worse, they could be better, who knows, so I– I try not to put too much thought into like, what if, um, but basically from that point on thirteen until– I mean I stopped wearing my mom and step mom’s clothes immediately. I didn’t want to get caught again, I certainly thought about it. I never bought my own clothes until well after college actually. I went to college, did the college thing, was in the drumline, joined a fraternity, did all the dude things, you know, hooked up with girls, had a girlfriend for most of college, never told her anything about this, I just kept myself super, super distracted and, yeah, I would think about this kind of stuff. I would look up, throughout college, or even before that I was obsessively– obsessively, on my free time, looking up, like, male to female transformation videos, whether through hormones or just makeup, um, I think I watched– I watched countless hours of just, like, transformation videos that, like, people ask me where I learned to do my makeup and I’m pretty sure it’s just osmosis from watching YouTube videos for just like, hundreds of times I can’t even tell you. So I basically lived vicarias– vicariously through other trans or female-identifying people. Through college basically and it wasn’t until– I think the first time I bought my, like, first women’s clothes was like when I was 23, so like five years ago. I was, like, working, you know, staying at a hotel for work, and I had my alone time and I was like, it was my first time I had significant alone time, since through college and after college. So I, again, I was 23 so it was ten years after like getting busted at thirteen that, like, I was like, you know, fuck it, like, I’m– I’m by myself, no one is around me, I have my own room, I’m an adult with a job, like, I can do what I want. So I went to DressBarn, got some horribly fitting clothes [chuckles], I went to whatever Target or CVS and bought some crap makeup and, like, I just I went for it and it was terrible looking at those picture, terrible, but I felt awesome, I felt so good–
What was terrible about it?
Oh my execution. I was such a– I was such a newb, like it was [laughing]– it like– my first time doing makeup it’s– it’s not good, um, nor is anyone’s first time doing makeup, I imagine, but you know being a quote-on-quote guy at the time, like, experimenting with my, again I convinced myself it was cross-dressing, for so many years, like I always knew that, like, I loved women’s clothes but like, I didn’t like the whole shapeware, like, you know, needing forms to have boobs, needing pads to have hips, needing this to have that, like I always subconsciously wished everything was real, you know, where as a lot of cross dressers are fine with that illusion, and I just never was, but I would never admit to myself that I wasn’t happy with that, you know, like, cross-dressing, while it did make me happy to a degree, there was always that tinge of, like, yeah, but it’s fake and you’re not a real woman, you’re just trying to look like one. So, I, um, yeah, I kept at it for like, that was when I was like 23 in 2013? So throughout that year I continued to, um, to dress, to get better, to work on my makeup, to, like, buy newer clothes when I could. I bought a wig eventually. I was living with four other people in Philly so I had to keep it a secret, um, which I always was wondering if I did or didn’t and, you know, after coming out to people I had confirmation that anything that I had wanted to keep a secret in my life I successfully did, which, again, I don’t know if that’s a good or bad thing, um. [Exhale]
(00:29:11)
But throughout that year 2013 to 2014, I continue to just dress, I told my girlfriend at the time, like that December of that year, December of 2013, that she was the first person I had ever told, I like to cross-dress– and her initial reaction was pretty good actually, supportive, wanted to embrace it, this/that and I– it took me four months to realize that that wasn’t the case because like I put my quote-on-quote life on the line, you know, like it wasn’t that serious, but like I was just like, it was– that was one of the more monumental moments in my life. It took me months to gather the strength to tell her that I like to wear women’s clothes, and her reacting, vocally at least, saying that she was supportive, I kind of blinded myself to her actions, which if I were to evaluate her actions of from December 2013 to April 2014, like when we eventually broke up, it would have been clear that she was not excited about it, I was just– first person I ever told, she says she was accepting of it and I was like hell yeah, life floodgates are open and I was running with it, and I vividly remember when I came out to her one question she asked me which has stuck with me, so that was 2013, no it was 2014– it was twenty-four, for the past four years basically, and she had asked me, you know, when I came out to her that I like to cross-dress, “Does this mean that you like to be a woman?” and I said, “No, no, I wouldn’t do that to you,” and then, like, which is just a dismissive kind of answer, and then when you take a step back from that, and later in therapy, I, like, were– again, in my first out of therapy after we broke up, for various reasons, um, I was going to therapy for various reasons, we broke up, because of the cross-dressing, but, I remember always wanting to bring up that answer, like “No I wouldn’t do that to you,” which really means, like, yeah, I do want to be a woman, but I wouldn’t do that to you and I couldn’t– I couldn’t bring myself to talk about that with my therapist at the time in 2014 it took until one relationship later, and one therapist later, in 2017, to eventually, like, bring up these feelings and these thoughts and these fears honestly, they were all fears about transitioning. If I were to look at the root of it; for all my life, simplest a– ya know– answer or the simplest explanation is the answer; Did I want to be a girl? Yes, okay, you're trans, but like I boil it up to be this huge, huge thing, that has so much fear built into it that I couldn’t even, like, approach the subject to myself until I was like 27. Until, like, keeping my shit together was no longer possible basically, like I always had my stuff together, always very even-keeled kind of person, easy to connect with, you know, I’m driven, I always basically went from one accomplishment in my life to the next like, e– even looking after college, it was like okay graduate, Bachelors, I got the Masters in a year, the year after that I passed my CPA license, the year after that I bought a house, the year after that, like, I ran the marathon, the year after that, is like, how many more things can you do to keep yourself distracted or to prove that there’s nothing wrong, or to whatever it may be, like, before I face this one question that I’ve been putting off essentially? So, yeah, it took until, yeah I guess last year, it was early last year, 2017 for me to just like, eventually, [clear throat] break, um, there were a lot of different factors that lead up to that though. It was like. [Pause] I was with my girlfriend at the time for like twooooo years and a couple months, and the way I was looking at it was– so I was with her for two years and a couple months and she was two years and couple months older than me, let’s just say two years and three months. So, we were together for twenty seven months, she’s twenty seven months older than me, so I was the age that she was when we started dating, and then if I were to copy and paste that, that would bring me to thirty, basically, like if we were to copy– ya know, repeat what we just did, I would be thirty and, like, where did I want to be when I was thirty? ‘Cause last year, that was the year she turned thirty, basically, so like where did I want to be when I’m thirty and like,
(00:33:56)
with her absolutely it was the answer, but like I wanted to be with her, as myself, I just couldn’t do this like, you know, this game anymore, so– ya know– I– it was also like things between us were getting more serious and I felt like I should tell her that I was having these feelings before she, like, left her place that she loved in South Philly and, like, decided to move in with me not knowing this, so, like, I told her all of these things before she decided to move in with me last year, and she did anyway, on like a leap of faith, but she was clear with me that if I decided to transition it was over. So I was like, okay, like I was in what’s called the questioning phase, I’m sure you’ve heard that from a lot of other trans men and women, um, um, or non-binary folk, don’t want to exclude them. But, basically last year, like, the first half of the year was me questioning, like, is this really what I need to do, is this really who I am, or is this just me freaking out over being like a cross-dresser thinking, like, you gotta pick one or the other, it’s like, you know, and going to therapy she didn’t– my girlfriend at the time didn’t rush me, she didn’t pressure me, she was very supportive, but she did make it clear that, like, if I transition that would be the eventual end so– that’s kind of what made me, like, snap last year and decide to like finally address this, like, question that’s been looming over in my head for twenty seven plus years, so– We could probably go on and on and on and on and on and on about it so [chuckles]
We can kinda [Unclear] I was just curious, so, um, we talked about– a little bit about the experience about what happened when you were thirteen, I was just curious what was High School like for you. What kind of things were you involved in?
Oh, um–
What was your focus?
So I had two main groups of friends I– ‘cause I, from my two main activities that I did, I was in the drumline in high school and two years in college, and then I was also in the Volleyball team. So, my Volleyball friends were, like, my friends that I’ve had from, like, pre-school, ya know, fourth grade, like my older friends and then I made a bunch of new friends in the drumline as well. Ya know, I was a studious person, well that made you think I was a nerdy kid staying at home studying, again, not like there’s anything wrong with that, but like, I consistently get, like, notes from my teachers that like, Eric is smart but, like, you know, needs to, like, apply himself more, or something on the report card. It would say, I was just naturally gifted I would say and to like– not like I’m a genius but, I never had to try. But I always got good grades, I was good at taking I was– shy, extremely shy, except with my close group of friends they wouldn’t really say I was shy, but anyone else outside of those closed group circles I would imagine would say I was shy. I was always awkward with girls, uh, now I know why [snaps] but like, I always try to like, date girls and get close with them but I didn’t– I didn’t– know what to do, I didn’t feel comfortable and it took until I’d say junior or senior year, where I did, like, this stay away from home leadership camp or whatever you wanna call it, um, where I spent like five days in American University down in DC and five days in Columbia up in New York– just doing various session seminars, meeting new people and, like, I went with one of my friends but, like, we met a bunch of new people and that’s, like, when I came out of my shell, so for like the last year of high school I was like a different person basically, I was not shy, I was ready to talk with new people, um–
(00:37:53)
[pause] And I carried my way through- though college, basically I didn’t find it a problem to like assimilate or socialize or, you know, I don’t wanna say that I was faking my way as a person, but– I found it easy, not easy– my natural response was to just like– I don’t– [pause] I always remember being distracted by my feelings, feeling trans but I don’t think it got in my way of being able to do what I needed to do, thankfully, whereas a lot of trans people, I don’t think they can say the same thing, um. At least of what I’ve read on, like, Reddit or talking to people on support groups. So, I was able to be quote-on-quote well adjusted, you know, which I now despise that term, being well adjusted, fuck that, like, you know, that’s just like what people tell you– how people tell you to be so that you confirm, this is just my opinion of that word, so it’s just like, conforming, just being a normal, like, keg in the, or you know, whatever, um, it’s– what’s the word? Keg in the mill? I don’t know–
Kog in the machine
Kog in the machine! [chuckles] That is my perception of what being well adjusted is, like a kog in the machine, another brick on the, you know just like being that kog, you know, that kind of person and that’s what I always tried to be, was well adjusted, just be a normal fucking person and it took a long time to realize that that wasn’t my life path, and that’s fine, even when. So going back to 2013, when I like told my girlfriend in December and then that following, April of 2014, like, I had gone– I had finally fathered the strength after a year plus, a little bit longer than a year of cross-dressing privately in my own home and, having told my girlfriend at the time, I gathered the strength to go to my first meet up, um, like cross-dressing trans meet up and, again, I was self identifying as a cross-dresser at the time, um, probably because that’s all I would admit– like, let myself admit that I was. So I was up in New Hope, um, which is a very good town, you know, for that kind of meet up, uh, it was at like Raven Lounge which they have on like every couple months like basically, so this was Raven 19 in 2014 and I go there and, uh, this is probably gonna get scratched from the– [laughs] from the trans– but I’ll just say it now for continuity sake, I end up getting a DUI that night. Um, it was– no one was hurt neither me nor anyone else, thank God. You know I had a good time, I met some good people but I think I was just super nervous I– not think– I was definitely super nervous and I hadn’t eaten that much that day for like the first number of times I had ventured out I don’t– didn’t really eat because I was so nervous, um. So when you don’t eat that much and you have a decent amount to drink you are going to make bad decisions and that’s what happened. So I get a DUI, I tell my girlfriend the next day, she knew I was out and where I was going and why I was going there but I told her about the DUI and that was like, you know, we took like a brake for a week, and then the week after that she ended up ending things with me. So going through DUI, having a traumatic experience my first time dressing as a girl I thought it was a punishment for me for indulging in my, like– you know, fantasies or whatever–
You went to the event dressed as your true self?
Yes, sorry it was a trans crossdresser event and I went dressed as a woman– left the house, you know, as a woman for the first time in my life. Huge, huge moment, I think I look pretty good but like, I thought, I’ve certainly gotten better, uh, and it was a cool experience but, yeah, it eventually led to, like, I don’t think, like she eventually ended up telling me, you know, she wasn’t
(00:42:18)
comfortable with the cross dressing thing, and I think she was just honestly looking for, like, a way out of the relationship and me getting into legal troubles was like, I guess like, “Oh I can’t deal with this,” so that was like her way out. So, ended up going to therapy to help me get through like thinking I was a shit person for indulging in my cross-dressing, thinking I was a shit person for indulging in my– not indulging, for getting a DUI thing– I was just a shit person cuz I couldn’t hold on to a relationship and so when the supposedly– we were only dating a little longer than a year but we were talking about, like, marriage like we were serious, so I was like– it made someone who was so unbelievably attracted to me emotionally and physically, um, spir– we’re just– we were just really connected and, like, me being a cross-dresser turned that off, so I was like this is clearly something that I can’t deal with as a person, then I basically put myself through like borderline conversion therapy, like my therapist was not on board with what I was asking him to do [chuckles] which was basically, help me stop cross-dressing basically, like, among getting through the break-up and the DUI and all those issues I was like, “I don’t want to cross dress anymore.” I, like, read shit online about, like, religious twelve-step stuff, thank God I never got into any of that stuff, um. Going to– dealing with the DUI, one of the things I had to do was go to AA meetings and, like, some of them can get religious at times so just like me thinking about the decisions I made that brought me to this point in my life that was like a dark, dark year for me, but! To get through it made me sign up for the marathon just like again, focus on something, work toward something, literally run away from my problems, and later that year I did successfully run the marathon, um–
The New York City one?
The Philly one.
The Philly one.
Yup. Um, but that was that summer of like 2014, like, from April through, like, even the end of that year was rough. I ended up meeting my girlfriend, my most recent girlfriend, later that year in 2014 and we ended up until last year when I officially came out to her as trans basically. But, I always kind of looked to like– it’s not like– I wouldn’t say I’m a serial monogamous or whatever that phrase is, like jumping from girlfriend to girlfriend or, you know, this point in my life I’m openly bi, so partner to partner but I was certainly, like, you know, I’ve been in a number of longer-term relationships, and I do love being in a relationship, and I think I always clung to them because I wanted the relationship to like quote-on-quote cure me like, “Oh maybe I just wanna be a girl, but maybe I’ll stop wanting to be a girl if I just find one to love, or like live vicariously through them, like– just like– see– you know, help them get better with their makeup instead of me doing my own,” like, whatever it was like, not that I wasn’t genuinely interested in or loved these women, I did. But I always clung to relationships as a way for me to prove that, like, I was normal and that there was nothing wrong with me or whatever, um– so– They were also good sources of distraction. I also loved femininity in general. I'm attracted to it, I also embrace it, you know, for myself. Since I’ve come out I’m definitely a feminine person, I would say, um, and it’s come very easily to me, it’s not even, like, it's much effort, um. But for people who knew me as my former self, like, I wasn’t the least bit feminine and it’s because anything remotely feminine I would just filter out of like my– I’ll just say in my “transcreen,” like, whatever, that screen that I had it’s not like– what I– how people knew me wasn’t a lie– I’ll say, like, what people knew about me was all true, it’s just there was all this stuff behind the surface
(00:46:27)
that they didn’t know about me which never made it past this screen or filter basically, so now people, I just say, know more about me. All the shit you knew about me is the same but, you know, people have a better picture of me in general and, like, yeah, I act different, but, in terms of mannerisms– but I think that’s all just coming pretty naturally as well. [Exhales]
Um–
Yeah–
You mentioned a little bit about High School. Was College always kind of like a preordained thing, was it always in your trajectory to go to College or?
Yeah, I guess getting to like what I was saying about being younger it was always one thing to the next, to the next, check the next box so, like, my life was just a series of, like, checking boxes. I– I don’t think I really stopped and thought about what the hell I wanted to do, or where I wanted to be, or who I wanted to be– until after college– it’s so weird, how you can go so long of your life without actually critically thinking about what you want to do, and I think part of it is– how I grew up just wanting to like fit in, be normal, do what I was supposed to do, ‘cause I always did what I was supposed to do, I was always, like I said, level-headed, even-keeled, but it was also, um, a way to distract myself from, like, what I was going through basically, um, so yeah, it was, you know, just one grade to the next, one school to the next so after college, um, that was definitely out of my trajectory, I would say it kept me pretty distracted while I was there.
Um, you mentioned that you did drumline that was like– continues from High School to College and then you also mentioned that you were in a fraternity in College, what was that experience like?
Um, I genuinely enjoyed it, [chuckles] I mean like– I obviously still have the feelings that I do but I wouldn’t let myself talk of about them or think about them, being in fraternity and doing drumline, doing those activities in college was extremely good for me, socializing was good, the networking was good, connecting with people was good and, like I said, it kept me distracted. I’ve just always been keeping myself distracted, um, I also from age 18 until– what am I, 28 now? I smoke weed almost every day. I don’t do it when I go to work, I don’t do it when I go see family but, like, through college I certainly did it all the time and even after college, I’ve been out of it for a while, I– and I do smoke a lot, um, so I think I had– again, always been self-medicating to just not really be in the moment, and it wasn’t until my most recent girlfriend, um, you know, we had broken up last year, but it was like about a year ago or 14 months ago that she was like, “Why do you like to smoke so much?” It never, you know, it had never impacted me as a person, I always got done what I needed to get done and it never detracted from my relationships– I was always very caring, at the time, boyfriend, I was always very caring, ah, child, caring friend, so it never got in the way, so I never asked myself that question. So when she did I, like, took it to my therapist, “You know this is something that I never really thought of, like, why do I like to smoke so much?” And, like, I think I eventually got to the point that I was just like, I didn’t like being myself sober. I didn’t like being myself and, you know, that was from like 18 until that last year I was 27 that I was smoking almost every single day– And again, like, how do you not just, like, take a step back, but you get in– you get in to these routines, so anyway that started in college but, answering your question about being in a fraternity, it was an experience– I mean I have– I lived in the frat house with like eighteen other dudes one year, another year there was like twenty-one
(00:50:37)
other people, um, I was the treasurer one year, I was president a year, um, you know I’m– I was– I aspire to, like, be a leader in different things that I do, um, so I like that for the leadership opportunities it offered I loved meeting– making the friends that I made, one of my best friends now is Dave, he was my big brother in the fraternity, and he lives one block away from me, we both own our perspective homes, so I met some good people through it and it helped me get set-up with like, my current career basically, like because of Lambda Chi, my fraternity, I was– like I eventually nailed an inter– like an internship at DuPont, like, they were interviewing like thirteen other people I think they told me and the– the main guy making the decision was a Lambda Chi from a different school. So, like, that whole thing about it, networking and it can pay off and help you get a job, like it’s not bullshit it definitely did, because from that job I met the audit team, like the public accounting audit team that, like, audited them which was PWC. After that I eventually interned with them, got my job, worked with them for three years, and now, like, that’s in my resume, like, you know, for people in accounting where like that’s one of the bigger firms, um, so that, you know, I would boil down to, like, being in a fraternity one hundred percent helped me get to where I am in my career now. So I’m very grateful for that experience, um, do I wish I was in a sorority? Like, yeah, probably, but I can’t take that experience back or do that over, it is what it is, um, but again I’d say ultimately it was distracting, it took me away from my own head, ‘cause when I was alone– I’ve never wanted to be alone, I’m a very social person, I’ve never lived alone up until, like, my break-up last year, like age 27 was the first time I had my own space. I’d always wanted to be surrounded by people because it was always a distraction from myself, from what was going on in my head, because I never wanted to face it. There was a time when I was younger that like– I– you know, I almost did shrooms, I never did them for my friend, it’s because I was busy or whatever, but like really, I mean lets be real. I was interested in doing them I never did but I didn’t want to do it because I was afraid what it would unlock in my own mind or something or what I would admit to– you know– I had al– I can’t tell you how afraid I’ve been of being trans my whole life and now coming out and it’s like none of it turned out to be true [chuckles]. And I– I’m not– I can’t speak for ever– you know, any other trans person but myself, but like my experience has been pretty fucking sweet, so, it’s been pretty good so far, and I look back and I’m like what was I so afraid of, like– but everything happens for a reason and I am where I am now because of the decision I’ve made– for better or worse.
So when you had your– the conversation, um, with your girlfriend and decided to– that you were gonna make the transition, what were, kinda like, the next steps that you took?
Um, so leading up to that, I guess it was multiple things like I could even tell her– so, like, brief timeline of 2017: in February I told her I was going to start seeing a therapist and I locked one down by March 8th. March– I remember it was March 8th because that day is significant because, I didn’t know it at the time but, on the anniversary of my first therapy session for investigating my transness, March 8th is international women’s day, so I was, like, really, like, that’s really cool that’s when I started going to therapy. Um, so in March I started talking to someone, by June I basically came out to myself, um, I said out loud in June 2017, for the first time in my life, I am transgender, uh, so that was just to myself and my therapist, about a week later I told my mom, she was supportive but freaking out, um, and it took me two months from that point to tell my girlfriend at the time because, again, I knew what was gonna to happen, so even admitting that I
(00:55:28)
was trans, I was still trying to fight it like there’s gotta be another way, there’s gotta be some other option like– like this can’t be true, like why me, all this kinda stuff but and it took for me to basically hit rock bottom, I won’t say rock bottom, because I would– I– I– I spiraled into depression last summer, and by August I finally just caved and told her, so obviously right at that moment we were broken up, we were both crying, you know, she was crying at first because it meaning the end of our relationship but then very quickly she started crying, like, worried about what I was going to be going through, like, in my journey, she was very caring about me. Um, we haven’t spoken in a number of months but that’s just because, you know, she needs her time and space to get over the relationship, but immediately after I came out and like for the following months after that, she was very supportive of me like helping me tell other people like some of our friends, she like coached me over text on like getting me mentally ready to tell my brother, um, I, like, let her know when I told my dad, like, she was insanely supportive, and like her main worry– obviously she was upset that we weren’t the couple that she thought we were, her main worry was just about my safety and my health and all that, um, so, I told her August– 6th, by the 9th, which was a Wednesday, I went to the Mazzoni Center, which is like a really big trans health legal resource center in Philadelphia, I feel very lucky that I live in this city. I always say if there’s a quote-on-quote “good city” to be trans in, Philly’s a pretty good one, just ‘cause of all the resources that they have. So, like, by that– that Wednesday I walked in to the Mazzoni Center and made my appointments for like HRT, um, which weren’t for a few months out unfortunately, I had to wait a few more months but that gave me more time to, like, lose more weight, um, ‘cause another thing of, like, while testosterone is the devil, and it’s a poison for me, like, I hate it, there is a benefit to it which is it helps you burn fat quicker. Like men scientifically lose more weight faster than women because of testosterone so it’s like, while I still got this shit in my body, I’m gonna make use of it. I was able to lose some weight, um, like thirty pounds last year, um, and, you know, just basically prepare to transition. I had been growing my hair out from like February of last year when I made these appointments of therapy. I was like if I do decide to transition I’m gonna have wanted my hair to have been longer, so, like, starting early last year, I started growing my hair out. I’m very thankful I did that. I started laser, like I’m a very organized person and I get shit done, so I just, like, had a list of things I needed to do, and I started acting on them where I could so, laser, um, I still sought out therapy, I was, like, working on starting HRT, which I started on October of last year, and then I also started speech therapy last year as well, which I have since then stopped because I feel pretty confident with my voice, um, at Temple University has this free program which is pretty cool. Normally speech therapy is, like, super expensive, like thousands of dollars, but Temple has in their, like, grad program for speech and language pathology they, like, set trans clients up with a clinician which is, like, a grad students and it’s monitored by like, you know, this woman who’s in charge of the program, but like the grad students basically administer the clinics to the, um, the trans clients, so it’s like ten to twelve weeks, really cool program. I did like two semesters of it and they just helped me focus on my voice and all that so. yeah, anywhere I was like– anywhere that I could make progress I was making progress.
What were you, uh, in working with the– the speech therapy program, what was your goal going into it?
Um, I had two goals, actually. Uh, one of which was to have a voice that is distinctly feminine, um, but my main goal was not only distinctly feminine but one that suits me, uh, which I think
(01:00:20)
I’ve more developed in the second semester of doing it. Like, the first one after I left I definitely had a feminine sounding voice but it was, like, I think a little too high, a little too strained, a little too fake, um, a little too monotonous, it just didn’t sound terribly natural so, like, the second semester I worked on actually lowering my pitch from the end of the first semester, because it’s not all about pitch, like, the what I’m speaking to you right now, it’s probably in the androgynes range but just all the other components of voice that make up a voice make it sound I think feminine, um. So yeah, those are my two goals; distinctly feminine and one that matches me, which, like, as a guy I had an extremely low voice, like I think the normal male range is like 80 to 150 hertz and mine was like 88 or something, like, super low and what I’m speaking at right now is probably 160. Probably close to that, if I’ve been maintaining it since graduating but, uh, yeah, there’s like different compon– it’s, like I said, it’s not all pitch, they talk about resonance which, like, guy voices, they resonate mostly in, like, your chest and female voice resonate mostly, like, it’s the head voice they call it I guess. So, conceptualizing that and, like, learning that, I think was the toughest component of the female voice, um, my musical background– even though I was in percussion I still, like, understand music to a degree that helped me understand pitch really, and then the other components are like breathy voice, which I don’t think that much of, but that’s like [imitates the sound of a breathy voice] when you add in, like, it sounds softer and like kind of how Merilyn Monroe sings in that like [singing it] “happy birthday to –,” you know, that song, so adding components of that and intonation was, like, the last component which that was just like inflection, sentence structure and all that kind of stuff, you know, during the middle of sentence you’ll rise up for a bit and then, like, usually at the end of every sentence there’s, like, a fall to like signify that it’s over. So just adding that and not sounding so, like, robotic, and then having to do them all at once, like, it was a lot of work but there were some good people there, a lot of good help, um, and I was a quick learner so.
So, um, uh, when you decided to do hormone, uh, treatment, are you on estradiol?
Yes, yup, so I started estradiol [clicks tongue like a clock going tick-tock] October 18th, 2017. Um, and I was actually– so like from what I read on Reddit, or at least talking to other people, normally– so for fem– no for male-to-female transitions, for feminizing hormone therapy, I’ll say there’s like two main drugs, um, an estrogen and a antiandrogen. So normally you start the antiandrogen first and then you are introduced with the estrogen, I did the opposite because my doctor had, it wasn’t any confirmed studies, but he said there were– there’s– you know, not official studies but there’s science that indicate that you can have better breast growth if you start on estradiol then introduce the antiandrogen which I was like okay, you know, I prefer to do it the way a lot of people do it but, you know, I read on, it’s not that I just willy-nilly decided to do it, I read online and I spoke with other people and they said there’s nothing adverse really that can happen by doing it the other way, so I was like okay if there's nothing really adverse that can happen by doing it the other way and there’s a potential benefit, then, yeah why not. So for six months I was on estradiol dosage increase after three and then after six months my estradiol dosage stayed the same and I was introduced to spironolactone, which is one of, I think the most antiandrogens that trans women take, so. I’ve been super happy, like, it’s just crazy seeing pictures of me last year, you know, to where I am now, like, when I was in a state of mind when I was like, “I don’t know how my life could ever get better, this is miserable,” like I would be, I’m probably gonna cut this next part too, but like, I would be driving– it was getting to the point
(01:05:13)
where every time I drove over a bridge I would be like, it would just be so easy to just like […] drive off the edge or to stop and jump off the edge, like, that would be in my mind– So much easier than having to go through what I thought I was gonna have to go through and I always told myself I would never actually do it, if it got to the point where I was thinking about doing those things then I needed to do something in my life differently and that is what made me tell my girlfriend, because my options were: tell her and start this crazy scary journey or drive off a bridge or something and I was like okay, I know I’m not gonna drive off the bridge but those are the options my mind has right now so I’m gonna do what I need to do. Um, I don’t think I was ever at risk of doing those things but the fact that I was thinking about them was super scary to me, I never thought about stuff like that. I forget how I got on that, um.
Talking about– you were talking about transitioning and then hormones, and then just kind of getting into that–
Oh, so yeah, when I look at that point– when I look at a picture of myself from that point in my life and compare it to a picture of myself now, not only do I look so much more like myself, like I don’t even recognize that person in those picture, I– I– but I’m just so much, so much happier than I was then and– it’s just so weird growing up looking at that face for twenty seven years, yet I never identified with him, like that, my previous self, like, I– I never– I knew I would be looking at myself in the mirror, I know how mirrors work, like, but it just never seemed like I was looking at myself and I could never figure out a way to explain it and even saying it right now it sounds– it doesn’t sound crazy, because every other trans person would say the same thing and it’s not crazy, but it’s just so impossible to explain. But now when I look at pictures of, like, myself, now I can immediately and easily identify with her, with that person, and it’s just so– like that is me, that’s my identity, like, yeah I’m trans, but like that is me, whereas the previous person was not me. He may have been doing all these awesome things and been loved by all these people, and, like, whatever, all these different things, but that wasn’t who I wanted to be. And, like, given a choice at birth, like, I would have obviously chose to be born this way but you gotta make the best of what you’re given, so. It’s just crazy how fast things can change in a year and like, I’ve only been on hormones for seven months, eight months next week actually, and they, like you’ll think for a while that, “they’re not doing anything, they’re not doing anything, they’re not doing anything,” and then you’re like, “Oh, shit!” Like, I almost broke down the other day because I was looking at myself and I, like, I saw a girl looking back at me, not like a feminine version of my former self. I’m like, “Holy shit, that looks like me.” It’s so cool, and there’s a phrase I’ve always heard like, it’s tough to explain and get cis people to understand what that feeling is, and what is the phrase, it’s like, if you– “If you know what it’s like than no words are necessary, and if you know what it’s like than no words are enough,” and I think that’s true.‘Cause my brother has, like, some of his own mental issues he’s like generally fine but he’s just dealing with some stuff and his experience he can try and explain it to me countless times and I will never be able to understand it, so it’s not just unique to the trans, uh, experience it’s unique to I think a lot of experiences that exist in our minds that you can’t really understand unless you’ve gone through it so–
(01:09:15)
But as far as, like, transitioning’s going, I mean it’s like– yeah I’ll look at– I look at there being three components to the transition if you do all three, any or all three, like, it’s up to the individual person but for me it was: social, legal, medical. Um, social, I, like, spent all of last year after I told my girlfriend I, like, spent the remainder of the year telling close family and friends, um, and then on January 1st it was like a good new year, new me kinda thing, I like blasted of Facebook and just go that over with, overwhelming support, it was pretty great. So social transition essentially was done then or actually really it was the end of January where I then came out to work and my clients side and went full time there, end of January.
How was that coming out? Through your work, transitioning?
I was super nervous and– I’m in clients service so, like, my main fear was I could have any of these like XY and Z rules and laws on anti-discrimination things protecting me but like, at the end of the day, if I can’t bill hours, I was, like, really worried about that, um, you know, like my company can be fine with it, but if none of my clients were fine with it, then like– and I couldn’t bill hours, then I was really worried about being let go not of being trans, but just not being billable, which I then found out it was illegal for client to refuse, like, you to do work for them based on that class but, regardless it could be illegal for any number of things to happen but like you still hear the stories of trans people getting fucked and screwed, you know. And then it’s, like, insanely expensive to sue so, rather than deal with the potential downfall of that and the aftermath. I just, you know, I’m a big believer of C.Y.A., like, cover your ass, you know, I put in a shit ton of research, developing a spreadsheet of, like, all parts of the transition I wanted to focus on, like, what I needed to do and have organized before I came out, like, what I should keep in mind while I was coming out and, like, stuff to keep in mind afterwards and, like, I’m neurotic when it comes to figuring out what I need to do, I have, like, spreadsheets for, like, a lot of different stuff for my transition, one of which was coming out to work, one of which was, like, switching my legal documents, one of which was HRT, there’s a lot of stuff.
So I was just, like, super prepared, had a lot of resources, spoke to my boss and the director of HR, and, you know, told them as calmly, collectively as I could that, you know, “This is the reality of the situation, here’s what’s happening, you know, I wanted to tell you guys well in advance so we can figure out how best to go about this. I’m not telling you guys looking to be, you know, present myself next week,” like, I told them the end of November last year and I wasn’t presenting female in the work place until the end of January, so it took two months. Which, like, yeah I was eager to stop living my double life, um, like my table over there where my jackets and bags are like that was my guys set-up, it had my guy coat, my backpack for work, all my, like, guy shoes, and on the other one facing it was where my girls stuff would be, where I would come home after work and, like, get ready to go out. I was living a double life for like two months basically and I wasn’t supposed to go full time as early as I did in 2018, it was– originally I was saying, like, February, March or even after the quarter in April but I was like, I– it needs to be soon– so, I sent an email to some key member of my firm, I told my boss in HR in November after Thanksgiving, sent an email to like maybe 100 to 150 people, in December at some point, you know all the Philly office and then people from other offices that I thought it would be good for them to know, um, so that was pretty insane. I got a lot of support from that e-mail and then, one– once I sent out that email, with my permission, my director forwarded it to the person at
(01:13:42)
my client site. ‘Cause my clients aren’t, like, individual people it’s like a company, my client is like PetCo, they are owned by Epsolon, it’s an energy company, um, so they– so my director forwarded it to my key contact, my senior manager there, and then I spoke with her from like the client side ‘cause that’s where I go every day, that’s where I work everyday, like, how are we gonna tell the rest of the team, so it’s weird, like, from a work setting I had to come out twice, to my own company and to my clients, so we just figured out, like, by bringing it up early enough, I was able to kind of like set– and being also the first trans person to go through this at my company, there’s like seven or eight hundred people at my company and I’m the first open trans person based. And at my clients site too, there’s like, I don’t know very many LGBT people even, like take trans out of it, like even gay or lesbian or bi people like I don’t know many LGBT people in my work life, so that was another big issue I had to get over. It was like being the only one of a certain type of class of people in my work setting. But that was true whether I was out or not, I was always the only trans person, so I think the way I went about it was extremely professional, it was like received well by my company, my clients’ company, like my boss and like the director of HR even said like, when I gave ‘em all these resources and like told ‘em my plan and my thoughts on the whole process, he was like, “You basically did our job for us,” um, like, so they thanked me, you know, we had a follow up conversation like a week or so later, and then with my clients it’s been fine, everyone genders me correctly–
Did either company have a policy in place prior to this experience?
Exelon is, which is the parent of my– my clients’ company, um, Exelon is, like, I think they are actually one of the better companies for LGBT policies or just, you know, like, they’re a very good company, um, I think for people that are LGBT, so they had actually whole policy on transitioning, like, whole outline policy, which I thought was pretty cool and I didn’t know that was the case. My company does not, I am by far, like, the first trans person there, like, they are basically developing their trans policy, I would assume, based on what I’ve told them and based on the resources I’ve given them. So like, I gave them an example trans– transition policy, I was like you can use any, all, or none of this, like, while I don’t think none is the best option but like you know this is your HR, your realm, but I’m giving you resources to figure out what would make the most sense to introduce so, it’s been six months since then, seven months since then, I haven’t heard anything. I also asked to have transition costs covered under our health care plan ‘cause they are now explicitly not covered, which sucks. So, when I told them then, I gave them essentially a year's notice, that like in 2019 is when I am going to look to have these surgeries and I really want these costs covered under our next plan. I haven’t had an update on that, so like while they are receptive and supportive of me and treat me with respect and all that, I really don’t have a complaint about my company or the clients company at all, if my company does fail to meet the bare minimum of like what I’ve asked of them and to, you know, treat me with respect by get– you know, working to get this stuff covered and included in our policy, I would unfortunately look elsewhere even though like– it’s a pretty good gig I got going on, in this firm, I don’t want to have to go elsewhere but, like, I would like to go somewhere where I’m fully accepted and appreciated and I don’t think a place that would make you shell out tens of thousands of dollars just to feel like yourself is a place that really respects you fully or completely. The way I look at it, like, Type 1 diabetics have their stuff covered, they were born with this, it’s also hormonal related, like, and they have all their stuff covered, why would this not be basically, you know?
(01:18:10)
So that’s a pretty good description of a social transition, but what was your legal transition like? Have you done a full legal name change?
So I, uh, yeah, I was actually waiting on that for a little bit because I hate dealing with the government. I– I am like a libertarian through and through, and I’m like whenever I have to deal with the government it’s like goddamnit, like, I don’t wanna have to do this, so I put it off for a while, I got all my ducks in a row. I like have, again, another spreadsheet where it’s like document, type of change, name or gender, or both, if I could’ve done ‘em both at the same time, like, what I need done, how much it might cost, like, where I need to go, like, what form I need to fill in, like, I had my shit together so basically once I was mentally prepare, like, okay you’re gonna change your name now, let’s do this. I was able to just very easily act on and do it, so the end of March I filed paperwork with the city, went on vacation for a week, I came back maybe the next week, I had a letter from the city that, um, they set a date for my hearing, that I needed to, like, publish it in two papers, and get, like, a couple judgement searches on my name, to make sure I’m not trying to avoid any debts, so I got that stuff done like ASAP, waited for the hearing date which was June 1st so, like, pretty recently, my name’s been changed legally. So I show up and the woman’s like, “Oh, thank you for bringing all this in, everything was good, the judge will get to it Monday.” And I clearly looked distraught because the 1st was a Friday and I was, like, throwing a party the next day for, like, my name change, I was like gonna go right from the city hall to like the DMV to get my new license, I was like really excited for it. She could tell I was excited and I was upset not at her, but at the situation, I was just like, “I just don’t understand, like, why did they would’ve said June First’s my hearing day if it’s not gonna get looked at until the Fourth? just tell me to come June 4th I would’ve done that, like, I can’t easily come to city hall,” like I was telling you, that was another, I think work-from-home day or something ‘cause that was within two weeks ago, so that was another, like, work-from-home day or whatever. I was like I won’t be able to come back here for like two weeks, um, so, you know, taking pity on me she, uh, I think she has a soft spot in her heart for trans people, um, ‘cause she also gave me another tip, which I’ll share with you in a bit, but, she was like, “Okay,” she looks around, “don’t tell anyone I did this,” but she just takes my docket and slips it in a stack for that morning, she’s like, “I don’t know when he’ll get to it because he has to go through all of these but, like, if you’re okay waiting, you know, he will get to it today,” and I was like, “Thank you so much!” So I was sitting there for like two hours, um, my hearing time was at 9:30, of course I get there early at 9:00, that’s just how I am, and I was waiting until 11:00 and then finally got seen. I– I get the document, I have to go downstairs and get it certified, which is basically another way for them to squeeze out some more money out of you, it cost $41.58 for them to attach the seal and the stamp of the city so I nev– and it’s cash only, which I think it’s stupid, just take checks, I don’t– I don’t know why you can’t take other forms o – like what is this, like a hipster like, you know, bar, it’s, you know, why are you cash only if it’s the city of Philadelphia, regardless. I never have cash, I was freaking out, thinking, like, it was gonna add even more time to this process, to leave, go to the ATM, re-go through security, whatever, I checked my wallet guess how many dollars I had in there?
$42
On the dot.
[Interviewer laughs]
(01:21:58)
Yup I had exactly what I needed, so, um, I was able to get that done, went right to the DMV, it was super quick. DMV was actually the best part of this whole experience, weirdly enough in Philly they’re actually pretty awesome. In Jersey I don’t– I don’t think they’re that good at all but, um, yeah, so the name was changed June 1st, got the new license then. I then went through, like, an anxiety attack after that, like last week, because it opens the floodgates. Once your name is legally changed it opens the floodgates for every other document in your life to get updated and I was just getting overwhelmed, like, thinking about all that, despite having a sheet put together. But, so I was like kinda freaking out, I called my mom, she talked me off the edge and I was just like, “Okay, I’m gonna focus on the main documents now,” license, I got out of the way, social security and passport are the other two main ones and I’ll take it from there. So on this weekend I did social security at lunch one day, passport I applied for last week, so it still has to come in but, like, in a matter of a couple of weeks, my main life’s documents, oh, other than birth certificate, will be updated and birth certificate I’m waiting on anyway, because, and I’m sure you know on talking to other trans people, that, unless I have this surgery I can’t change the gender marker, so.
The new law might change that
Do you know when– anything about that?
I know it’s in committee, I know it’s been approved in one committee and now it’s in the next committee
That’s awesome
So– but the governor has said he will sign it.
Mhm, very cool. So I have been looking forward to that, if, after this discussion, I can get the name of that or like a location of just where to look up on that so I’m aware when it happens, well– you know, we can catch up on that, but, um, that’s awesome and I heard that, but again! The moves– the wheels of government move slowly or turn slowly, whatever it is so, I don’t think it’s difficult to pick up my perception of government or how they operate so, um, but whenever that is changed I’ll get the doc– the birth certificate changed ‘cause I don’t wanna have a birth certificate that has like Erica Grace like, you know, Cirulli and then, male. Like, that– sucks. So, um– But the other ones are in the process, and then once those come in I can change banks, credit card, whatever, like I just realized I need to change, like, my Amtrak account, and it’s like all these things that are adding up and like pilling up, so legal, I would say, is in progress, but mostly done really, I mean, like, it’s just changing all these other documents, but my name is legally changed. I’ve successfully socially transitioned, I pass pretty well, life is pretty dope, I still have my moments of, like, feeling lonely and going through different things but, uh, it’s pretty good. And now, the hormones, as amazing as they are, it's kinda the worst part ‘cause like all I can do is wait and I’m not a person, if you couldn’t gather, that likes to wait. I like to just get shit done, so, the fact that now I’m just, like, living my life waiting for them to work, it’s like, “Okay that’s kinda good and easy,” but I just want it to work quicker.
You had mentioned that there was a lot of resources in Philadelphia that it’s, like, a good place if you were going to be trans or transitioning. Have you had any negative experiences just in terms of medical attention or getting, uh, services or–
(01:25:30)
Uh, I haven’t, like, really looked into anything surgically yet, that’s next year, uh, I imagine resources are there, if I need them, um, but, like, the Mazzoni Center like I mentioned, they’re a good place for support groups, they have a legal team who helped me and gave me guidance on the name change process, and then they also have a medical center and it’s not just for trans people it’s like a family practice but they specialize in trans care. So, I would say the opposite. I’ve had amazing experiences with it, um, just because they have a team of people there who are all very receptive to the trans community and, like, know about the standards of care and
WPATH and all that, like they– they’re not just like your Joe Shmoe, like, doctor who’s like, thinks they know what’s best for you, you know, they’re going off of the standards of care that are published and mine’s even up front saying like, “A lot of this stuff isn’t set in stone. We’re still trying to figure out what the best way to go about this,” and he’s open with me, like, when I’ve asked to go full dose after six months of– of estradiol he’s– you know, he would say– you know, “Based on what I’ve learned and researched the benefits you would gain from full dose, aren’t off set by the negatives to your system by going a full dose,” which is I think 8 mg a day, currently I’m at 6 mg a day, and have been for like five months now
Do you wanna change to injections
No. I take it orally. You can take it injection, patch, orally, or sublingually, which is just under your tongue and it gets absorbed. I just swallow the pill. I thought about going to injections, [under the breath] what time is it actually, two. I take spiro at two, so I’ll take that in a sec, um, thought about going to injections at a certain point, it’s less taxing on your digestive system, supposedly you can get better, like, growth and development, but again is all your mileage may vary that’s like a well, used, um, phrase at least in trans community, like, yeah this is what I do but like it’s– it’s not at all guaranteed to work on you, or it’s just like here’s my results from this. A lot of it boils down to genetics. You know, every girl goes through puberty, not every girl, mo– like, you know, large majority of women go through puberty and, um, it’s different for all of them too. So, you know, what I’m going through now it’s a second puberty, um, a lot of realize on genetics, and my body type and all that so, um, just kind of taking it day by day. I get my blood tested every three months, to make sure, like, all the levels are where they should be. Uh, what else? That seems pretty easy, like my check ups are pretty, pretty standard. I go in, get my new scripts, talk to the doctor about, I think this time, or maybe even next time, like towards the end of the year I’ll start being serious talking about, like, surgeries and doing research on that but, it’s kinda tough to do that, unless I know, if it’s covered, and if so, what is covered, so, I’ll figure that out.
Any questions you wished I asked you?
Um– We talked about a lot. I was going to speak about– I don’t know, like, I don’t know if there’s any questions I wished you asked, but in terms of stuff I wish I said that I didn’t even get to, like– [Exhales. Pause.] The– How do I phrase it, like– To kinda sum stuff up I like, I– I spend a lot of my time wondering, like, if I could have done something differently and, if so, what I could have done differently, or when I could have done it differently, and it’s just– it takes a lot to get through that and a lot of people feel that way in their life about various things, you know, none trans related too, but like, for me, I think everything happened for a reason. I’m able to transition now, the way I’m doing it, because of the life I’ve had. Um, you know, as Eric, but, you know, I had the job I had because of, like, decisions I made when I was younger, I have– and
(01:30:27)
help I’ve gotten as well, I have the therapist I have because, you know, of XYZ, you know, the first one I wanted wasn’t available and this one like could only– just things kinda fall into place for like a reason, they did for me. It’s taken me a while to, like, accept the fact that, um, that that’s okay I guess, you know, to forgive myself, to forgive myself, you know, for, like, what I did or didn’t do or didn’t say when I was younger, but I’m getting there slowly. I was gonna say something else but I forgot it. I kinda just talk and talk and talk so [chuckles and trails off]
That’s what you hope for when you’re taking an oral history.
What?
That someone just starts talking.
[Laughs]
Any parting thoughts? It’s not your last opportunity to do so, um. we can always do a follow up, if there’s anything else that comes up.
What I will say is that I’m really glad that you are doing something like this. I think it’s really cool, I think this is a group of people that could benefit from something like this. And if it does lead to any, you know, I don’t know what it could lead to, but, you know, even if just like one person were to hear this and learn more about themselves, or, you know, learn more about a group of people that they didn’t know much about before, um, then I think that’s an awesome thing and, uh, yeah I just wanna thank you for doing this, so–
Thank you
Mhm, and if I can help in any way, let me know.
Well look at that it’s 1:35. No wait, that’s not right, it’s 2:35, um, and I’ll stop recording here.