Marine Veteran Danielle King talks about the different experiences she had throughout her childhood and the life decisions that brought her to the Robert Wood Johnson PROUD Center. She works as the Coordinator/LGBT Patient Navigator at Robert Wood Johnson Barnabas.
“And they think in their mind that they are LGBT friendly without truly understanding that, like, no you’re not. Or you just don’t truly understand the needs of the community even though you think that you do.”
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TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by John Keller
New Brunswick, New Jersey
May 20, 2019
Transcription by Chrissy Briskin
0:00
So this is John Keller with coLAB Arts and the Rutgers Oral History Archives, and it is Monday, May 20, 2019 and we are located at the coLAB Arts offices at 9 Bayard Street New Brunswick, New Jersey and we are here today with–
Danielle King
Great. Danielle King, what town do you currently reside in?
I currently reside in Woodbridge.
Great. Awesome, so thanks so much for agreeing to do this, and as we mentioned before we’ll just kind of start at the beginning with some background questions. Where were you born?
I was born in, um, Teaneck, New Jersey.
And do you mind sharing the year?
[laughter] Uh, 1989.
Awesome. When you were born, what was your family structure like?
Um, Mom, Dad, grandparents, a whole lot of uncles, cousins, um, but my parents did split when I was around, um, one and a half, two, um, but they still raised me together.
And, uh, did you– did you spend your entire childhood in Teaneck, or did you move around at all?
Um, so I actually lived in Dumont, New Jersey and my father lived in Hackensack, so I kind of split my time there until I was about five and then it was solely Dumont.
Ok, great. Did you live in a house or an apartment, or–
I lived in an apartment, yeah.
Do you have any, kind of like, early childhood memories of– of being around with your family or what life was like?
Um, very loving. Very supportive, uh, if you could think of an abundance of love, that’s what I grew up in. Yeah.
Um, do you have any specific examples of that, or?
Um, any specific examples– I don’t know, my family was just like, my grandmother was just like an angel straight out of heaven, like, she was everything, um, the type that would lay you over her knee and just rub your back ‘til you fall asleep. Wake you up to her rubbing your back again. She was just very kind hearted. My mom was the same way.
Um, so you had mentioned a lot of extended family. Did you see them frequently or just at family gatherings?
Um, my mom was on the road, she sang. So did my dad. My grandmother on my dad’s side and on my mom’s side, they kind of helped out when they could. But for the most part, my mom, even when she wasn’t on the road and became a nurse, she still made sure that I stayed in contact with my family. Holidays, weekends, just ensuring that I had that family support and connection.
Um, did you have any siblings?
No.
So you were the only kid–
Yeah.
And when you– what were– when your parents were around, how frequently were they gone during your–
Um, I can’t really remember how long they were gone. It didn’t really feel like much because my grandmother gave me so much love that it honestly didn’t matter. But then my grandparents moved away when I was like six, they moved to Atlanta, and my father had moved. Then it became me and my mom, which was different.
3:35
How was it different?
Um, 'cause then we didn’t have that family support, didn’t have that extra love and– and for my mom I know it was a lot. Way more difficult as a single parent mom who was also working full time and going to school, to also have to have all of that by herself.
Um, what was school like for you? Did you like school?
School was very difficult for me. I grew up in a very white neighborhood, there was only three black people in the school. Um, and anyone who was a minority got put into special education. Um, didn’t matter how smart you were, didn’t matter if you could pass the test, if you were a minority, you went into special education. Um, so I kind of got floated into that, um, and then the teachers weren’t kind at all, they were stuck in their racist ways, um, so it was– school was very rough for me. School was difficult.
How did you process that as a kid? Did you have a perspective on it as a kid?
Um, my perspective on it was– was just that there’s going to be angry people and there’s honestly nothing that you can do, um, to change that. I have a lot of white people in my family, my grandmother on my mom’s side, um, and I just knew that, like, I would never treat people that way. Some people are just stuck in their old little habits.
Um, were there any subjects in school that you particularly enjoyed or excelled at in elementary school?
Hmm [laughter] I excelled at– does gym count? [laughter] That’s the subject that I excelled at. [laughter]
Why did you enjoy it?
Um, I was just very active. I loved playing basketball. Played my– since I was like three, maybe even younger I started playing basketball, so for me that was always my thing. I loved to run and I’m still like that to this day. So that was the one thing that I excelled at.
Were there any– did you have any experiences that were maybe exceptions to the rule in terms of your school experience?
What do you mean by exceptions to the rule?
Well you kind of said that all the teachers were stuck in their ways and that there was this– you felt like there was this consistent presence of racism or of being ostracized in a lot of ways. Were there any exceptions to that?
Oh yeah. I had one teacher, the nurse. Not a teacher, the nurse, and I guess that goes with her title of being a nurse and healthcare and being that type of support in the school. She– she was everything. Miss Venci. She would– 'cause she knew I didn’t like to go to lunch, 'cause I didn’t like to sit with the other kids, so she would let me come and be the nurse’s aid and sit with her for lunch, or in the morning she would let me come sit with her and have cereal with her. Um, she was just awesome. She was everything.
6:58
That’s great. And then when you– were you in the same school system all the way through?
No. Um, my mom had remarried when I was twelve and then I moved to Woodbridge New Jersey.
So then was that just at the start of middle school?
Uh, eighth grade I went to Woodbridge.
And was that a different experience there?
Way different. 'Cause now I’ve only learned how to deal with, not deal with, I only knew how to communicate and have fun with white kids, 'cause that was all that was around me, but when I got to Woodbridge, which is extremely diverse, I didn’t blend in now with the black kids. It was, “Oh you’re light skinned. You’re this, you’re that, you speak different. You talk different.” Um so then it became that. It was like, just a complete, like from one side to the other side, just flip the coin. But in Woodbridge it was a lot easier for me, eventually after I got to know more people and they got to know me and they saw, like, alright this girl is kind of cool. Yeah.
Um, were you still participating in a lot of sports in middle school and during that time?
Oh yeah, yeah. I played basketball on multiple AAU teams, I was going to camps all summer, um, played in school. Uh, in high school I, as a freshman, played varsity and throughout all my four years in high school.
And then so throughout middle school did you, were you, um, in terms of your groups of friends, did you eventually develop friends within the school system or based, more neighborhood based?
Um, in Woodbridge I had a little group of friends that we kind of hung out. We were the really weird and odd ones and we kind of just grouped together somehow. And they already knew each other so they kind of just accepted me into their group. Um, but we were super tight. They were like my sisters one hundred percent.
9:28
And did you hang out mostly with other women or yeah?
Yeah, mostly hung out with women, but when it came to basketball and hanging out around the court, that’s when I would hang out with men, 'cause I liked to play with men. I felt that they were faster, stronger, so there’s no better way to practice than with something that’s bigger than yourself.
Um, did you at this time, did you have any romantic interests? Did you date at all?
Um, yeah I started dating really young. Um, women. I had dated boys, like, you know, “Oh that’s my boyfriend,” in elementary school, and my mom’s like, “Well what does a boyfriend do in elementary school?” And I’m like, “I don’t know, he holds my books.” [laughter] But I just knew, like, I would always look at my friends and just be like, “Oh my God, you’re so hot.” And they’re like, “Oh my God, you’re gay.” And I’m like, “No I’m not, I just think you’re hot.” But it didn’t, you know, it took me awhile, like, ‘til I was twelve to be like, “Okay well I really like women,” so that’s when I started to be like, “okay I like her.” “Do you want to go out with me, be my girlfriend?” Around like twelve, thirteen.
Did you– would you classify your experience as a coming out experience or–
Um, a little bit? I mean I came out to my mom the first time when I was twelve. And I told her that I was gay, well a lesbian. That would be my coming out.
How did she respond?
Not well. Not well at all. And because my mom was in the music industry, most of her best friends, all of them that I met were all gay men and when I started putting it together, I’m like okay, they’re gay men, haven’t met a lesbian before, but I would think she’d be okay with it considering the world she was in, um, but me being her only child, and the scary thoughts that went through her mind especially back in the end of the nineties, early 2000s, there was still a lot of homophobia, a lot of stigma that, I mean it still exists today, but it was a lot worse back then. So I can understand how she kind of had that, you know, homophobia and anger of that time.
When you were dating did you ever have to conceal it from your family?
Oh yeah. After I came out when I was twelve, my aunt who happened to be bisexual, one of my uncle’s, my uncle’s ex-wife, um, she kind of just said, “You have to live in that house and you need to do what you got to do.” So I just said, “Alright, I’m going to pretend like I have a boyfriend, pretend like I like men.” Bring guys around that I really wasn’t dating, but it was just to calm the situation. Um, yeah, so I had to kind of put everything under my coat and just wear an outer layer that wasn’t mine.
Um, did– what was the transition like from middle school to high school?
As far as what?
As far as, like, you know, were you, I assume you’re in Woodbridge where you’re in middle school and then you go to a separate school building, was the energy different in that space?
Oh one hundred percent.
Did you feel that you had to change yourself or did you have some sort of transition from being like that– that sense of middle school you’re still kind of a kid and high school you’re a teenager?
Um, yeah a little bit, um, a little bit, um, but I would say, like, I don’t know, all my friends were really grown acting, so even when I got to high school, it was kind of like, we’re grown, even though I was a freshman, it was like whatever, um, the only difference was that I had a stepbrother that was in the same school as me, he was a senior and I was a freshman. So, that was the only real dynamic that had really, like, changed.
13:52
Was that your mom’s second husband’s son?
Mm-hmm.
And did you, when your mom got remarried you were twelve and were you all living together?
Mm-hmm.
What was that like suddenly having a sibling in the household?
He was amazing. The first time I met him I was around seven or eight and he just kind of stepped into the brother role. He’s always been extremely loving, supportive. Like some brothers are like, “Get away from me. I’m hanging out with my friends!” But he was always like, “Do you want to come with me? I’m hanging out with my friends.” Also, we played basketball. He played basketball on the same type of level I played. We were always at the park together, always going to each other’s games, we would run with each other, go to the gym and practice and just shoot for hours. He was, he was awesome, he was honestly the best brother that I could have been blessed with. Especially out of a marriage.
And what about your stepdad?
That man is a God sent. Like he can do no wrong. I love him beyond anything, he is the greatest role model of what a man could and should, will ever be. He is one of a kind. He and my mom actually dated when they were teenagers, um, they broke up for whatever reason, met up again in life, now they both had kids and all this stuff, but he never treated me any different. He never made me feel out of place, his family has never referred to me as a stepdaughter or anything. It’s just that’s my niece, that’s my cousin and that’s it. They’ve been more supportive than my blood family.
Um, you had mentioned that as you were a kid, your grandparents had moved away and then a couple other family members. Had that extended family moved away by that time?
Uh yeah, my grandmother passed away when I was seven, and then my grandfather passed away when I was seven and then my dad passed away when I was eight, so we kind of like– my family dynamic as far as my dad’s side had broken up. It was just kind of gone, yeah.
What was the transition your mom made from the time when she was on the road being a singer and then did she make a career transition?
Yeah, she was working her ass off. She was going to school at night, during the day, taking me to class with her, became a nurse, um, started working at Palisades Medical. She really, she knew that she had to do something that would be more stable so that she could be at home, she could see me grow and be there for those moments. She did everything [phone ringing]
Do you need to get that?
No, it’s just spam. Friendly old spam. But she did everything in her power to make sure that she could be there and be the mom she wanted to be and she was, she was awesome.
17:00
Did she ever express her reasons why she did that?
Her reasons were simply that when she came home one day, I had a tooth. The next time she came home, I was walking and she had missed my first steps, she had missed my tooth coming in, she had missed one of my– my first tooth falling out and she was like, “Nope, that’s it. I’m done. I want to be present for every part of your life. I want to see everything.” So that was kind of her reason for making that switch and I know that singing was her passion and everything. And nursing was just a choice because of money, um, but I’m super grateful for that decision because I probably wouldn’t have the opportunities that I’ve had if she didn’t make that life choice.
When you were in high school was there any sort of pressure building or did you have any sort of idea what you were going to do after school?
Oh I had no idea.
You had no idea.
Oh I had no idea, I know that I wanted to join the military, I knew that I wanted to do maybe FBI or CIA of some sort, um, but I honestly had no clue at all. None. I just knew I wanted to play basketball, that was pretty much it for me.
So when you started getting closer to the end of high school, what was your process for taking the next steps?
Um, my mom made it seem like there was no other option besides college after high school, so I didn’t really think of high school as being it, because I knew I had to go to college, thinking that it was mandatory, but in my family it is. But I realized the people in the WNBA, they’re only making like forty thousand, I don’t want to live like that, and I’m like what else can I do? So, my steps were kind of like trying different things. I did like ride alongs with police, I did, um, teacher apprenticeship programs, I did–
Was this in high school?
This was in high school, yeah. My mom had put me into a program so I was going to college at night when I was a senior. Um, just trying to figure out like, what am I doing?
And how did you make a choice?
I decided to go into the Marine Corps. Yeah, um, which really pissed off my mom, [laughter] but my grandfather was a marine, on my dad’s side. I’ve seen all his pictures. And after 9/11 it really pissed me off and I knew right after 9/11 that I wanted to join the military. My heart was set on it.
When did you graduate from high school?
‘07.
So 9/11 was when you were thirteen? Fourteen?
Yeah, I was eleven.
Eleven.
Yeah, I was ten or eleven.
So that had a lasting memory on you?
Oh yeah. For sure, a lot of our– because I lived up where– I lived at, right across from the George Washington Bridge, a lot of people– a lot of people’s husbands, a lot of my friends’ parents were killed in the towers so it really affected our town, like, it was really devastating. It was just a lasting impact.
Um, why– so when you were getting ready to graduate from high school, what was your process for joining the Marine Corps?
Um, I spoke to a recruiter, um, kind of played with it a little bit, um, and then–
Did you seek any advice from anyone particularly?
No. Uh-uh, nope. I’ve always been kind of like a– I fly very quietly and then you just figure out what happens when I get there. Um, so I kind of just made that move kind of on my own. But I had to wait a year 'cause I graduated when I was seventeen, um, so I went to Middlesex County College, played basketball there, um, did track, and then after my birthday, signed up, had a date and left.
So what was– that kind of that seems like a pretty big transition to go from civilian life into the military, what was that time like?
Um, it was kind of– it was fun. Boot camp was a lot of fun, I’m not going to say it was fun. It was extremely hard, physically, mentally, it was very challenging, the hardest part was now one hundred percent putting myself back into a closet because Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell was in effect.
21:58
So you were in Parris Island during the summer or the fall?
Summer.
Summer.
April to July.
And what was, I mean, you talked a little bit about it, but was kind of that– did you, in terms of the physical strenuousness, did you feel like you were prepared for it or was it something–
Oh one hundred percent. I was one hundred percent prepared, but I did have a lot of anger, um, wasn’t very humble back then. Very, just very emotional, but not emotional like crying but emotional like angry emotional, so for me, that was more difficult because I ran cross country, swam, did track, played basketball my whole entire life. That part was a cake walk, the hard part was having somebody in your face, calling you names, telling you what to do, get up at this time, leave at that time, all of that stuff was like the more difficult aspects.
How did you work through it?
Um, I had a drill instructor who really had taken a liking to me and she would get in my face all the time. And then one day she took me down to the sand pit and she was just non stop. We were going for like a really long time. She kept asking me, “What are you so angry about? What is your problem? Why are you so angry? You know how amazing you could be if you’d just, like, let all of that go?” And we just had a moment and it, like, clicked for me for some reason and we had maybe like a ten or fifteen minute conversation that truly helped, helped clear my life. Like, helped clear up a lot of anger and be able to move forward and handling myself differently. Me and her would have sidebar conversations, usually you don’t speak to a DI like that, but she had taken a liking in me and she saw like, “Alright, like, with a push you could be that much better, if you just allow yourself to get there.”
Um, what were some of the things you had to let go of?
Um, I guess anger from my childhood, being raised in a white town, anger losing my grandparents and then my dad, um, just a lot of different things that I held onto that I never processed, never even tried to think about it, just tried to brush it off like it didn’t even happen.
Um, and then, eventually having to go back in the closet during training, what was that like? Was there anything that was– was it truly Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, or did you not even tell, did you have a group of friends that you could confide in or–
I felt like I couldn’t confide in really anyone, 'cause you never really know who you’re talking to, um, I did end up moving through boot camp to MCT and MOS school with two other women, Bias and Young, who’s now Andrews, and I was able to tell them, and they were the only ones in my circle that knew, but at that point, I’ve known them for like a year, and we went through all this stuff together and we were super tight so I was able to talk to them, but besides that, I couldn’t have that conversation with anyone. I had a girlfriend from fourteen up so even though me and her been together that long, we were already, in our terms, engaged even though that wasn’t a thought that we could even get married, I still couldn’t introduce her in that way. I couldn’t bring her around my unit, couldn’t bring her to anything, couldn’t bring her to the Marine Corps ball, when people’s families showed up I couldn’t have her show up, it was just a whole in the closet, in a box experience, that I myself never wanted to live in, which is why I initially came out at twelve was because I wanted to be free and feel open about who I was, and then here you are fighting for your country and they’re telling you for some reason, whoever you sleep with matters for some reason as to the job you’re doing, which has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
26:48
So when you, um, when you were finishing basic training, then where did you land?
I went to Marine Corps Combat Training in North Carolina, um, Camp Geiger and then I went to MOS school.
What does that stand for?
Military occupation, um, I went to Virginia Beach, um and then I was there for I don’t even know how many months anymore. And after that I got stationed in New River.
What is that?
New River is right off of Camp Lejeune. Right down the block, it’s an air station.
And did you have, like, when you were doing these more specialized training, was there a trajectory for that or was it still more, more of a generalized training, or did you have a specific job or skill set that you were kind of prepping for?
So I was an intel analyst for the Marine Corps. So when I was at MOS school that was solely our focus. I graduated, like, second in my class and also being the youngest, which to me was super awesome. I actually had a choice of where I wanted to get stationed, but when I went up for that my question was, “who’s deploying?” 'cause my purpose was I was angry about 9/11, I wanted to deploy 'cause I wanted to do a whole military experience. They were like, “you have Hawaii, you have Japan, and you’re going to choose North Carolina?” I’m like, “yeah, aren’t they the one deploying? Yeah, that’s where I’m going.” So for me it was all about deploying, trajectory. For me it was all about deploying. Where can I go so I can get to that step? Um, which landed me at MAG 29.
What does that stand for?
Um, it’s Marine Air Group 29.
Um, and then what happened?
I ended up deploying to Afghanistan for a year, um, and yeah.
Anything about that experience you want to share?
Oh, um, again went right back into racism. I ended up with a unit that very much did not like me. Very much. And at that time I had brush cut haircut. They kept, they were always like, “Oh where’s your husband? Where’s your boyfriend?” Knowing damn straight that I was a lesbian, uh, it was just the little things they did. They put me on a– so I had a duty for breakfast, lunch, dinner, midnight, but then I had to work overnight. So they put me on this schedule that didn’t allow me to sleep and they did that to me for a month, just waiting for me to mess up and wake up late for something. Finally my last day on that, I woke up late, so here I am in Afghanistan going off like two hour increments of sleep everyday, waking up late and them finally being able to NJP me and do whatever they want. It was very difficult 'cause, like, we’re in Afghanistan, we are all away from our family, we’re all struggling mentally, it’s physically tiring, you don’t have the same resources that you have, and when I first got there we were sleeping in tents, but then you have people who are above you who, because of their own personal hate or anger, just want to make life a living hell for somebody else, just to give themselves a little bit of a pep and that was extremely difficult.
30:50
Was most of that gendered?
Oh extremely. Gendered and with race. In the Marine Corps, I forgot the percentage of women, but we’re– we’re a very small percentage, especially in the Marine Corps and men in the Marine Corps have a, for whatever reason, a lot of them have a hate towards women in the military. “Oh this is a man’s job, you shouldn’t be doing this.” And the fact that we’re there, it somehow steps on their masculinity in a sense. That’s the feeling that I had. So they’ll see us running by them or doing the same thing and it kind of irritates them. So they don’t like us in that space, but, um, women Marine, female Marines, we’re a force to be reckoned with and we usually try to stick together, but when you throw in race on top of that, and then you throw in sexual orientation, it becomes a whole different bag of, um, stuff. I don’t even know what else to call it.
How did you feel about your work while you were there?
I loved it. I felt like I was doing stuff for the country, I felt like, alright we’re doing something like you know it felt good. It felt good. Like everyday I would honestly look at the map of The United States and be like, “I’m over here for you guys.” And that’s the way that I always thought about it when I was over there.
How long was you kind of assigned deployment for?
Thirteen months.
And you completed the full thirteen months?
Yeah.
And then what happened?
Um, I came back, um, it was very difficult when I came back. A lot of interesting stuff, um, happened, um, then I got out in 2012. Yeah.
What was the interesting stuff?
[laughter] Oh, oh, so much stuff. Uh, a lot of stuff, yeah.
Anything you feel like sharing?
Um, I kind of can’t at this moment, um, but it was just difficult, very rough time. Um, but when I got out I was thankful but nervous because now I’m stepping out into a world where for these past years all that I’ve known was now as an adult all that I’ve known is the Marine Corps. I’ve been eating off of my paychecks from the Marine Corps and all of that and then I had to hurry up and, like, try and figure my life out.
33:55
So how many total years were you active?
Uh, almost four. Yeah.
So you entered around 2007/2008.
2008.
And then what’s the designation? Retired?
Out. [laughter]
Out in 2012 so then did you wind up back at home?
Yeah I was living with my girlfriend, um, in Carteret and then I started going to school.
Was this the same girlfriend that had been with you–
No, we went through a lot. It was very difficult for her, it was very difficult for me, and we ended up splitting, but she’s my best friend still to this day. We talk maybe, like, no lie, maybe five to six times a week but, um, I started– I moved back, moved to Carteret with a girlfriend, um, went to school at Middlesex County College–
And what were you– did you have any intention, any specific goals set for Middlesex County College, were you taking any particular classes?
I figured I would just follow my mom’s footsteps, 'cause I was like, “Whatever you tell me to do at this point in life, you’ve been able to make it, I’m going to listen to you 'cause I’m tired of not listening, and I end up in a mess, so what do you want me to do?” She said, “Follow the nursing track and we’ll figure it out from there.” Um, so I followed the nursing track and then I decided I wanted to do public health. Which all of the prerequisites for Rutgers was basically everything that’s in the nursing track so I had all the classes, I was already set up for it.
Nice. So you entered in 2012, or 2013?
To Middlesex? I think 2012.
Fall of 2012. So did you spend a full year there?
I spent two years there. I graduated 2014.
36:06
And what was that period of time like, just in terms of, like, studying?
It was difficult, it was very hard. All those anatomies, chemistries, biologies, micro, uh, math, all of that. It was very difficult, and I realized that being that I was in special education all the way up until high school, that there was a lot when it came to math that I just, it wasn’t clicking for me 'cause I didn’t have the foundation for that. Whereas, like, when I was in Woodbridge, as soon as I got to Woodbridge I had got out of special education and I went to the advanced classes because my– I was smart enough to be in those classes, I was put in them before, but as far as math, I was not, I was still in regular classes, but every other level, I was in AP classes, um, so when it came down to math, I knew I had to work my ass off. So I was sitting at the tutor everyday. Even for chemistry, 'cause chemistry is a lot of math, I sat at the tutor’s everyday. Even if I didn’t have a question, I just took my books there and I sat there 'cause I knew a question would come up. So I took school, when I came out of the Marine Corps, I had a different drive and a different energy. Um, I was kind of like reawoken, but now I was filtering my anger with what had happened into I will be successful. So I worked much harder to prove like, “I don’t need you, I don’t need that and I will make it.” So I worked extremely hard. Especially at Middlesex. It was hard, I would literally sit up all night, I would have all my books spread from one side to the other, arms, farther than my arms can reach. Books, multiple laptops, papers, flashcards, and I walked around literally everywhere with flashcards. My friends would be like, “Can you put it down?” “Nope, I have a test and I’m not going to get anything lower.” So Middlesex was rough. It was very difficult.
How were you– it sounds like you were spending most of your time focusing on academics, but time outside of school, how were you spending time?
Working. I worked hard. I had– When I was at Middlesex, I only had two jobs. Um, yeah. And then on top of that, the woman that I was with had a baby, so I was being mom. I would drive her to school with me in the morning, take her to daycare, pick her up afterwards, then play mom all day afterwards. Um, me and her did end up splitting, so that didn’t, the mommy stage lasted for like two years, but yeah it was a lot. It was a lot. It was difficult. Yeah.
39:18
And then you that entire time you had the goal set to wind up in the public health program at Rutgers?
Yeah, I wanted to go to Edward J. Bloustein. I had started thinking about it and I knew that’s what I wanted to do, so I had got in touch with them over at the school of public health, and I started, not the school of public health. Edward J. Bloustein and I started asking, “what do I need to do, what do I need to do?” “Hi, my name’s Danielle. Hi, hi, hi. What do I need to do?” And just making sure that I was on track to get into that school.
What was it that drove you? Why did you want to go that track?
I just knew that, like, I wanted to do more for, like, the public and I knew that as far as health, I’ve always been extremely health conscious, um, since I was younger. Obviously by playing sports, but like, um, just having a grandmother that had passed away from breast cancer, a grandfather that had diabetes, and a whole bunch of other things that took him out, and then my father, um, and all of his health issues that happened, I just became health conscious. And my mom at a very young age started talking to me about, don’t smoke and burgers lead to this and high cholesterol, high blood sugar, and having those conversations with me so I became conscious of what I was eating, conscious of what I was breathing in, conscious of all those things. I just felt like that was something I wanted to go into. That was a field I felt like okay, I could do this and be really happy having conversations with people about this type of stuff.
40:57
So what was the transition like when you started school at Rutgers?
Um, when I started at Rutgers, I was very serious and, at that time, I was a older student, considered a older student, um, so I was twenty three and the transition, it was kind of scary, 'cause you’re coming from Middlesex ,where I knew a lot of people, you walk down the halls and it’s very small. Then you go to Rutgers and you can’t find your school, you can’t find your class and then you realize, “Oh crap, I’m on the wrong campus! Didn’t even know there was different campuses in New Brunswick.” It was just a completely different thing.
So, you started at Rutgers fall of 2014?
Yes.
And it was– was it the program was a BA in Public Health?
Yes.
And how long was the program?
The program was two years
Okay.
But within my first semester, because of the connections I had made previously when I was at Middlesex, I already had connections with teachers, the guidance counselor was just like, “You need to apply for the MPH program.” And I was like, “Uh girl, I don’t think–” I don’t know after many years of being in special education, and people telling you you’re not smart enough, you tend to think that you’re not smart enough, um, and I just thought like, no, I’m not going to be able to do that. She’s like, “okay you’re going to put in the application and we’ll see what happens from there.” [laughter] My mom was like, at the same time my mom was like, “hmm you know there’s an MPH program? I think you should put in for it.” And I’m like, “why is everybody telling me to put in for it?” And I’m like, “fine.” I’m like, and I told my mom, “You told me to do something, I’m gonna do it.” So I filled out the application and I went through the interview process and I actually ended up getting in.
That’s great.
Yeah.
We’re gonna pause for just one second if that’s ok.
43:04
[End of Recording One]
[Beginning of Recording Two]
So you were mentioning, I was just curious, you were talking about some of the teachers you had interactions with, you mentioned that specific guidance counselor, were there any particular individuals that kind of stuck out to you at that time as being influential?
Um, Latoya and Christina. They were my guidance counselors and they really helped propel me and, um, like Christina wasn’t even my guidance counselor, but I had been in contact with her before, so she was kind of like, she just wanted to see me succeed and she was just so helpful throughout the entire process. Um, through getting over to Rutgers, to getting into classes, and like really helping me figure out my direction. She helped me, I got sponsored to go to a environmental health conference, um, she just, she helped me get a– see different opportunities that were at Rutgers. I started working at Rutgers. I had two jobs at Rutgers. Actually three. Um, but, yeah, they were just awesome. They were great. So great and, like, without them I probably wouldn’t have gotten into the masters program as fast as I did.
So how did it work out timing wise, you entered, you finished two years at Middlesex County, then you entered a two year program for a BA program, but then did they just align it with the MPH or–
Yeah so my last year, when I was supposed to be a senior for my undergrad, I started taking masters classes.
Okay.
So I was taking like six or seven classes at one time. [laughter] Yeah and an internship, I had an internship. And then I was working so I was doing a lot. I was working overnight at Quik Chek, I was working for Rutgers as a field researcher, we were out in Jersey City, and then I was also working as a pure educator for HOPE.
What’s HOPE?
Health Outreach Promotion and Education. They’re like a little small building, but basically you go around to, like, dorms and stuff like that and you have conversations about drugs, sex, alcohol, and that type of stuff. Consent and we just had an open conversation and do different stuff to help the students.
Did you enjoy that work?
I did. It was a lot of fun. It made me realize like how much I enjoyed talking about sex education and stuff like that.
Um, did you have a thought as you’re, kind of like, you know, finishing your school work, did you have a thought of what you’re going to do with it eventually? What you were going to specialize in?
Um, I started doing a lot of my research on LGBT 'cause I started just noticing different things of how I had personally been treated in the healthcare system and I was just wondering if other people had experienced that. So I became highly interested in LGBT research. So this was around my senior year of my undergrad. So I became– I started looking into like different options of what I could do, um, and yeah I wasn’t sure but I just knew there was something with the LGBT community that I wanted to do, but I wasn’t sure how, where, who, what that would even look like, so I just figured maybe I could continue to be a researcher, or something, um, but I had– I still at this point had no idea.
4:20
What kinds of these– did you have negative experiences accessing healthcare?
Oh yeah. Yeah, I’ve had, um, you know like when you go for your pap smear, they keep asking you about condoms and if you have sex with men, and I’m like, “I don’t have sex with men.” “Okay, so the last man you had sex with?” “Okay, did you not hear me say I don’t have sex with men?” And then the whole thing of, “okay, that’s my girlfriend,” “Oh, your friend,” or, “oh so you date women, so I’m not going to do a pelvic check on you today.” “Oh but that’s what I came here for today, but now that I’m saying I’m a lesbian, now you’re uncomfortable putting your fingers inside of me to check to see if there’s anything that may be swollen, fibroids, or whatever it may be that they can feel, whatever.” So it made me feel– it became that awkwardness, like with my primary care doctor, it was just extremely awkward. Every conversation was just, “so is this a phase? You know this type of stuff,” and it was just very awkward. It makes you not want to go to the doctor at all.
Did you see any sort of shift in culture, you know, so like as the culture was shifting, specifically, like, with the changeover, you know, the acceptance of gay marriage legally, did you see any sort of shift in the medical field or was it still–
For back then, honestly at that time, no I didn’t, I didn’t, I just felt like they were more open to asking, but then after you asked they were uncomfortable which made the whole situation uncomfortable which is why I kept hopping from primary to primary to primary. Then it became a thing of, let me not even mention. If you ask me that question, I’m not going to answer it. “Are you sexually active?” “No.” 'Cause I just don’t want to have that conversation.
So when you were looking for, kind of, career paths and LGBTQ healthcare or social work I guess as you were finishing up your masters degree, did it become more clear over time or did you have an understanding of what you were going to do?
It didn’t. I had no clue. I was freaking out. I happened to stumble across HYACINTH AIDS Foundation, um, and I started working there as an HIV counselor and tester and that’s when, like all of the staff is LGBT, um, and I was like, whoa, I could get into the nonprofit world, possibly create my own nonprofit, possibly something for the LGBT, so I figured, let me stay here, let me learn what I can, let me, you know, try to understand how this whole process works. I ended up getting a change in position to policy associate and we were speaking to congressmen and congresswomen, um, you know all different senators talking about HIV. During that time, I also was– my senior year, I had also interned for the chair of the policy, I forgot his exact thing, his exact title, but he’s a public health officer. Um, and I did things with him, like going to testify to raise the smoking age to twenty one. Went to go talk about putting Hep C on the panel, um, stuff like that and I realized, like, this stuff is really cool, then when I got to HYACINTH and I got the chance to really do policy work, like, full time, well not full time, but it was very good, then I still had in the back of my mind I want to do LBGT work, I just didn’t know what that looked like, and, um, a lot of things when you talk about LGBT work, previously it was mostly gay men and talking about like HIV and stuff like that, so I was really having a hard time trying to figure out what else there was when it comes to like LGBT 'cause a lot of the focus is around HIV and AIDS and STDs and stuff like that so I wasn’t really too sure. And then something historical happened Dr. Perry Halkitis became the Dean of the School of Public Health and he’s an open gay man, and once I found out about him I was knocking on his door like, “Hello, how do I get involved with you, what can I do?” And then I started writing papers with him on LGBT healthcare–
9:25
Did that happen while you were still in school?
Yeah, this was like when I was moving into my senior year for grad school. He became the dean there and he just helped open my eyes to a lot of different things, a lot of different avenues, and things that I can get into. Yeah, I just knew that I wanted to do LGBT work, I just knew, I thought it didn’t exist in New Jersey. So I was looking at Mazzoni, I was looking at Fenway, I was looking at the LGBT, Los Angeles LGBT center, I was literally looking everywhere 'cause I had no idea that it existed here. And then I figured that okay like I’m really good at networking, so maybe I could be a LGBT liaison, started looking and looking. I was looking everywhere, all over the country. And then Robert Wood, the position popped up and I was stunned. I didn’t even know it existed. I didn’t even know that the program that we even had anything like that in the state.
Um, the– how did the new dean respond to you, you said you, kind of like, knocked down his door and how, was that an easy relationship?
Oh very easy. He’s a very open man. Like if you show him, “Hey I’m interested and help me get in.” He will spend his time, he will invest in you and for him, his time is a lot of money and he gives his students a lot of time. He is very awesome in that way. I wish he was my dean the entire time. I don’t know who the last dean was. [laughter]. It’s horrible to say. When he came, it just changed the entire school, changed everything. Um, but yeah if you show him you want that, he will give it to you. He was awesome.
11:24
Were you working for HYACINTH while you were still in school?
Yes.
So was that just for a year or how long was that for?
I worked for HYACINTH for two years.
So your last two years of grad school?
Yeah.
And then when did you graduate?
I graduated 2018 in May.
So then it’s been one heck of a year. [laughter]. So then what happened when–so you were starting to do this search, around when did you notice the position popup at Robert Wood Barnabus?
I started my search, I graduated May. I said I wasn’t going to look for nothing for a few weeks, 'cause I was getting kind of, I was feeling kind of down 'cause I wasn’t getting responses back from all these other places, so I was like, “Oh my God, I need a break. Let me just think positive, take a vacation,” and as soon as I got back I saw that from Robert Wood. And I put in for it.
What was the job description, what was the job?
Um, Coordinator slash Patient Navigator. LGBT. Coordinator slash LGBT Patient Navigator. Um, so I put in for it, I didn’t get a response for a while. And then I got a response and then I had already planned a vacation so I couldn’t take that interview and then they didn’t call me back so I was like, “You know what? Fine, forget you. Let me just move on into my other world.” So when I graduated, I did a double concentration, so I did health education, behavioral science and epidemiology, and I knew epidemiology was the more– was the money route, which is the only reason I did it honestly. Also, the other reason why I did it was because I wanted to truly know how to read a study and be able to comprehend it and then spit it back out to people who don’t understand it. But I knew that was the money route. I had actually accepted a position for the state, um, working at the Department of Health, but, um, I knew that I really wanted the job at Robert Wood, but they weren’t calling me back so finally they called me back and I’m like, “Girl, it’s late, like, y’all already missed this chance. I’ve been following y’all for months, I’ve been calling, trying to reach out, nobody’s called back,” but I took the interview anyway, um, and I just, I just knew. Like when I had the interview, I just knew that’s where I was supposed to be at. It just felt right. Even though I knew hospitals, honestly more political than policy. It’s more political in a sense and it’s more risky versus the state, which is very structured. I’ll have a job until I retire, I’ll be comfortable, I’ll consistently have raises, but I just knew I had to do this for the community. So I just went with it.
14:32
So when was that, when did you finally have that interview, was that in the fall?
September.
And then how fast was the process? Or I guess my question would be how was this? How is the clinic explained to you, or how was it kind of presented?
It was presented that they opened, so how it was explained to me was one of the nurses, Jackie Baras, um, she realized that Robert Wood had all these resources, had all these things, reaching out to all these different populations, but they were missing one. And I commend her for bringing that up to the president and making it like, “no we need to do something for this community.” And they did a whole entire needs assessment and, um, Tony Cava, the president over there was like, “oh wow, we really are missing the mark. We are missing a group that truly needs this.” And decided to move forward with the process of opening up PROUD which no other hospital had their sights on at that time. Um, so it was very historic. It was a big move and I know for him that was a step that had to have been very risky in a sense, um, but it paid off because before it was only one night a week, but they had filled up so much that our wait list was up to like a hundred and fifty almost two hundred people by the time I had got there and, um, they had three different providers that were working these nights, the Mondays. And they were just overflowing. So they realized, “like, okay, we need more staff, we need– they need their own space, 'cause this is not conducive to what we’re trying to create,” 'cause we were within family practice. So they were really looking for people to help expand, um, PROUD. Um, so it was presented to me as a, “We started this. We need to expand. How do you think you can help us and do you honestly think you’re right for the job?”
And what was your answer?
Oh yeah. I’m right for it. My thought was I’ve been preparing for this without knowing that I have been preparing for this. 'Cause I didn’t know that title even existed, but I knew what I wanted to do was that, but I had never seen the title for it. So, I felt like everything I learned in school, everything, I look back at my notes today to create, like, social media, strategizing for social media or creating different events, I look back at my notes 'cause I have it. So I’m able to like use it, but it’s like this whole time at school I’ve been working myself up without knowing like where. But it just fit. Yeah.
17:34
So where would you– how would you frame where– you had mentioned previously you were looking at all these other places around the country that had set up networks already that were kind of tackling the needs of the LGBTQ community and New Jersey wasn’t one of those places, how would you frame where New Jersey is now compared to those other places?
Oh, I think New Jersey is moving very aggressive, 'cause now we’re not the only ones that have it at a hospital, um, we’re not the only ones doing this type of work, um, everything from our policy– from a policy standpoint, New Jersey is doing what it can to move forward, um, for LGBT and specifically the T, transgender individuals, they’re doing what we can right now to help progress New Jersey as a state. They’re willing to put out the resources, they’re willing to come down and have these conversations, they’re willing to come down and see what they can do as a state in order to make sure that we are moving forward as far as LGBT healthcare and LGBT safety in general.
What kinds of policy would you pinpoint?
Um, just the recent one of including LGBT in curriculums. It’s massive. 'Cause if we don’t talk about something and something is kind of put in a corner, it’s something that can grow and become scary if you don’t understand what it is. But if we’re teaching kids, “Oh this gay man did this, this lesbian did that. Oh they started this, they started that.” And you’re seeing these people in a positive light, they’re something that’s not in a corner, they’re something that’s in your face, they’re something that you see everyday, something that becomes normalized. That’s how you break down those barriers and create a safer space for everyone. So that alone was just massive.
Um, where would you say that the– where would you say that there’s still work that needs to be done?
Um, healthcare. Still.
Still?
Um, there should be absolute mandatory LGBT training. Um, like sensitivity for physicians, and nurses, and social workers. Absolutely mandatory. Even public health, um, sensitive, it could be some sort of curriculum out of a class or something, um, but we have to start kind of prioritizing it because, as much as we talk about HIV and AIDS and all these other things, like, this is also another area that has to be spoken about. Like it has to be. Um, in order for us to have the proper research, have the proper people, um, in place to make those types of moves.
20:41
Would you say that that training belongs in the educational process or also in the hospital systems themselves?
Education process, yeah. It should be mandatory, even teachers. One hundred percent mandatory.
So, um, in terms of, like, where we are right now, in terms of access. So if an individual is uncomfortable accessing maybe a standard family practice right? What are the options for them right now?
Us at PROUD. [laughter]. Um, because we are LGBT number one in the office. We understand that. We come from a place of very much understanding that. All of us. Um, and we try to make it feel extremely warm and welcoming and sometimes if you come out to the wrong person, you may not come out again. Um, and we make it very much normal. Like, “Oh, you’re gay? Okay.” Like it’s just very normal for us. It’s part of our everyday. So, but I do think– it shouldn’t just be us that create that warm welcoming environment. You should be able to go into any primary care and you should be able to have those conversations and be able to feel invited and safe with that. You shouldn’t just have to come to a place like PROUD for that. You should be able to go anywhere.
What’s the process? So someone is looking for a provider, what’s the process they go through with you?
With us?
With yeah–
Um, so with us, the first line of defense is Romel at the front desk, or me, or Avery, 'cause we’re the first ones that pick up the phone or we’re the first ones sitting at the desk. And when they’re greeted by us, we ask them their preferred names, we ask them how do they identify, um, and we only address them however they choose to identify. And that’s very important. A lot of our patients are extremely thankful for just that simpleness. With that, Jeremy, with all of our patients, he spends forty minutes with each patient, whether you’re a gay man, or transgendered, or a lesbian, or you’re bisexual. Whatever. Whatever you are on the spectrum, he will spend forty minutes with you getting to know you. And that’s something that’s different. Opposed to other primary cares where you walk in and they don’t even look at you. You walk in and they’re looking at their computer, they’re not even taking the time to really address you. Whereas Jeremy likes to get to know you, likes to know your family dynamic, what type of support do you have. Are you seeing a therapist, are you doing this type of stuff, he likes to really get into the nitty gritty and I feel like that’s the difference that we provide at PROUD is our front, from the front to even meeting our provider, um, yeah.
24:03
And then what’s kind of like a standard day at work for you?
Standard day at work. It’s very much, um, different days because we don’t have much staff, sometimes I will cover the front and then I also have the patient navigation part of my job so making sure that patients are finding resources that they need. So that can be calling other providers, calling um a GI, calling psychologists, ENTs, and asking their office questions and having conversations with them. “Oh do you have policies in place as far as LGBT? Oh you say you do? Okay, do you have preferred names in your system? Oh okay so you have preferred names. So do you understand when somebody– they pronouns– do you understand pronouns?” Having those type of conversations actually making sure that, some places I will go to myself and show up and have conversations with the front staff and have conversations with the office manager just because I want to ensure that wherever I am sending a patient, they are still getting, if they’re being referred from me, they’re still getting similar to what they had with us, 'cause I would hate to send them somewhere that they had– like some of the places I call they’ll say, “oh I’m not, we only refer to them as the name that’s on their ID.” “Okay, thanks, I won’t be calling you or referring to you.” I just don’t want our patients to have to experience people like that.
And do you find that once– what’s kind of like– are you finding mostly positive responses or are you finding that you still have to sort of–
It’s a mixed bag. People I’ve had office meetings with different physicians who truly think that they are LGBT friendly and then they use terms, old terms that are very disrespectful like transvestite, or saying dykes and things like that. And they say, “but my patients always let me say that. My patients never correct me.” “They never correct you because they’ve become comfortable with you and they think that now that they’ve opened up to you they don’t want to out themselves again, so they’re going to stay with you but that doesn’t mean that they’re not uncomfortable.” And they think in their mind that they are LGBT friendly without truly understanding that like, no you’re not. Or you just don’t truly understand the needs of the community even though you think that you do. Um, so it’s been a mixed bag. There’s some physicians who do get it, um, and they’re on top of it. Call certain places and honestly I’m not just saying it because I work for Robert Wood but a lot of the times when I call Robert Wood offices I don’t have problems like that, “oh yeah, we know pronouns, we see a whole bunch of people that we use different pronouns, we use you know all that. Preferred names? Oh yeah we’re real comfortable, that’s nothing for us.” And I think that speaks to the whole entire system of Robert Wood saying, “we’re going to make this move and we’re going to make sure hospital-wide. If you go over there, if you go over there, if you go over there, that you’re not going to be treated differently, we’re going to treat you how you want to be treated.” Yeah.
27:43
What do you, oh I already asked this. Do you think it’s a generational thing? Are you seeing it kind of across generations, is there a change happening generationally or is it still just kind of an overall?
I think the younger generation is way more accepting and loving and supportive. The older generation– we’ve still got a lot of work to do. And the older ones, the baby boomers, they’re still very stuck in their ways and you know what? That’s fine. That’s fine. But I think millenials and beneath that, we’re very open, very supportive when it comes to the LGBT community.
What do you think are kind of like next steps, what do you think the next five years looks like?
I think the next five years is going to be about family building for the LGBT community and really trying to find resources for that. Because we’ve moved from being able to have discrimination laws, to, um, well marriage equality then discrimination laws, all these different things are taking place and the next step will be family building laws and things in place for that 'cause it shouldn’t be super difficult for an LGBT family to create a family, but where we stand right now it’s still a huge issue. So that’s one thing that I do see, I do see that more physicians will start to take notice into the LGBT community and start to say, “okay how can I educate myself what can I do?” So that we have a more inclusive healthcare system across the board where I don’t have to call and have these conversations and then show up to people’s offices and have these different educational workshops with them to really do it. I feel like they’re going to come out the gate, come out of school knowing and understanding. And then also with LGBT being a part of the curriculum I really feel like it’s going to be normalized, it’s going to be something of the past that’s not seen as much different and maybe I’m just thinking overly positive, but that’s what I’m hoping will come out of that. Well, here in the state of New Jersey. United States speaking, that’s a– who knows? Abortion just got, you know– [laughter] Um, so as far as New Jersey goes, I see us being very progressive and open when it comes to the LGBT community.
Where do you see yourself and your work fitting into this in the future?
Hopefully one day, um, across, like, Robert Wood there will be more PROUD. More PROUD Centers. That’s what I’m hoping for. Um, and I hope that I will have a big part of that and hopefully I will continue the work. I love New Jersey, I honestly would stay in this state, because I love it that much and I would love to see New Jersey grow. Um, even on a state level, I think more could be done, so either working through the hospital or on the state level, um, that’s kind of where I see myself, but I see myself working with the LGBT community until the day that I die.
Is there anything that I haven’t asked that you maybe assumed I would ask?
Um, no
Is there anything if you were conducting the interview you would ask you?
No.
[laughter]
Great then I think we’ll stop the recording then.