Ivelisse Gilestra was raised in Puerto Rico and moved to New York City when she was 17 to get away from an unsafe lifestyle. She was arrested when she was 26 in Jersey City after a serious incident with a police officer. Ivelisse served fifteen years, with five years of parole. She is an organizer and a proponent of NJ-STEP, and is interested in healing justice initiatives. She is currently involved in campaigns to remove barriers to education for those who were formerly incarcerated as well as for those who are currently incarcerated.
“And, what I’m trying to say is, that you look for whatever it is in order to claim your humanity, man.”
ANNOTATIONS
Annotations coming soon.
Transcript
Interview conducted by John Keller
New York City, New York
August 6, 2019
Transcription by Ryan Neely
0:00:00.0
This is John Keller with coLAB Arts and the Rutgers Oral History Archive. It is August 6th, 2019 at about, uh, 6:15 in the evening. Um, we are located at Ripley-Grier studios in New York City and the oral history subject is, your full name, for the record–
Yes, Ivelisse Gilestra.
Great, and where do you currently reside?
In West New York, New Jersey.
Great, um, ah– so Ivelisse let’s just start from the beginning. Um, where were you born?
I was born in Puerto Rico. Um, in the Metropolitan area. I was raised by many village. Uh– many people. Um–
Were you born, was it around San Juan? Was that the main area–
Yes–
Yeah–
It was around San Juan. Proximity of San Juan, just, um, the metropolitan area is that, um, city–
Mhm
Yeah, in the capital, so I went to school in Puerto Rico– high school in Puerto Rico. Raised by my father, my mother, um, uh, migrated to New York when I was around 5. So there was some– I wanna say there was traveling from New York to Puerto Rico, uh, many Puerto Ricans have this flow and continuation of, uh, migration back and forth. Uh, was grown– grew up, um, with a dad that is a psychologist and a workaholic. Uh–I guess I, it was, uh–polarities of worlds I want to say I went to Catholic school, which I feel was a disservice [laughter] to my [laughter]–
So that was all in Puerto Rico too?
That was all in Puerto Rico, yeah.
When you were born, what was the family structure? Were your parents together when you were born?
Yes, they were together, one brother, one older brother. Uh, both parents together. They divorced. My mom– my mom left when I was around 5 and they divorced. I guess I was young and I normalized, uh, the whole, uh, not having a mother there.
Mhm–
My father worked a lot, I feel that he remarried, uh– I feel that I moved a lot, at a certain my– my forming years, in around, I want to say, like, around 12. If I recall correct– correctly around that age, my father was working a lot. Uh, his parents were deceased, they– they died when I was around, I don’t know, 11 or around that age. And I immediately with the lack of supervision, uh, it was like, uh, that duality. I went to school, had the good grades to meet, um, Catholic school was very constrictive, which it is. It wasn’t– it just, it is. It was, uh, uh, very, uh, restrictive. And then after that, it was a whole different world that was in the street a lot. I used to serve, uh, growing up. So it was, um– it was a world of discipline and constraints in the way of thinking.
0:03:56.7
Mmm–
And then the other world was, street and politics. Uh, most of my friends were in the art scene. Uh, also very political. Puerto Rico– Puerto Rico’s political resistance is specifically resistance, movements are very much in movement. It’s not something of the past, it’s still, it’s still, uh, prevalent and it’s still, you know– beating hard. And I guess I w– I got caught up in all of that trying to form my identity, and around 17 I finished high school, I graduated high school and moved to New York. Yeah, so um– I was already– I was already in Puerto Rico, um, experimenting with different things, uh, experimenting, experimenting with drugs, experimenting with, um– uh, this– it was a street life that, you know, experimenting with the lack of– I was– I wasn’t really not supervised. I guess my father was a father of the ‘70s, so he thought, um, you know, she has a good head on your shoulders, she has good grades, but he didn’t know that it was a whole different lifestyle to, to– only that on paper. So, when I left, uh, when I left New York– I mean Puerto Rico, I already had an affinity or like, a connection for that, for that life, for that culture.
0:05:56.2
When you were a– as a kid growing, so you had about five years when you were, when your mom was still living in Puerto Rico and–
Yeah.
Your parents were living together, um, do you have memories from that kind of like, that time–
Very vague, very vague, I think, uh, and I don’t know if this was a, it’s a matter of me protecting some type, you know, but very vague, very much, very motherly, uh– my mother was very, very protective. Very sensitive. I do have vague memories. Yeah.
And, uh, so– and you said you had an older brother?
Yes, I do.
Do you– do you– were you two close in age, or how, what was–
Three years apart, um, and we were close but then we separated in the midst of moving from places to places. I think we moved to a couple of places until we established, um, at my grandparents house, and then after some years they– they, uh, they died.
So that was your– and those were your father’s parents?
Yes.
That’s where your, when–
My father’s parents were very different from my mother’s mother. My grandmother, my maternal grandmother was, um, they were very different in class of education-wise, I wanna say, uh–just the way they view the world and the way they were raised and–
How so?
Privileged, I wanna say. And it’s not like my father’s side was really privileged, but they had that education, and that gave them opportunities. My grandmother, which, which was my role model growing up. My father was, but he was very, um, very absent, very absent. My– I think my father submerged himself in work, that became his escape, and I think my grandmother who– who is still alive, um, gave me– as a matter of fact, now that I think about it, I know that she was the one that imparted that– that– that love for stories. That love for tradition, for music, for things that are not traditional in the sense of– not traditional as in tradition, but, like, dominant culture. She had ways that were– were always traditions that were not– yeah.
0:08:57.1
That was your mom’s mom?
Yes, and that’s who I was close with, that’s who I look for motherly– you know, with that motherly role, that motherly figure. Um– black, strong woman, uh, with a leanage on Yoruba followers. I don’t know, indigenous. So they had another connection with the land, with the way you do interactions and engage with people. Uh– yeah.
[Editor’s Note: Yoruba are an African Ethnic group that inhabit Western Africa, and a large number of Puerto Ricans are descended from the Yoruba. The Yoruba have a unique influence on Puerto Rican culture, in ways such as language, music, and religion including Santeria]
Um, what– I forgot to ask, what year were you born?
’74.
’74. Um, so– you, you, when your– after your mom had left, what were– how do still– were you still seeing that side of the family? Your grandmother on your mom’s side, or was it mostly–
We looked for each other, of course, yes. I– I did not meet my mother’s side of the family, nor my father’s side of the family. And it’s very weird because I’m probably the only Puerto Rican that doesn’t have cousins, like, my mother is the only child, my father is the only child, so once my grandparents from my father’s side, were, you know, dying, passed on, um, it was like there wasn’t any immediate family– my brother moved with my mother here to the States, so it was like, it was mainly my father or my grandmother. And– and my grandmother had a different, um, resilience and a lightness to her. I don’t know, I don’t know how to– I think she was just ex– you know, eccentric and very eclectic. I’m pretty sure she had a lot of problems, you know, with that type of mindset in her days [laughter]. Which is very eccentric, and I love that about her, and I think, um, yeah, I–nI kind of mimicked that so, so I started hanging out on the streets very early in Puerto Rico. Very early.
0:11:03.9
What, what do you think was a, uh– did you live in an apartment complex or in a home, in a house in, or–
It was a house–
Yeah–
It was a house, yeah. It was a house, yeah.
And so when you would, as a, like, a younger kid, as when you were hanging out, was it in your neighborhood, or would travel somewhere else, yeah? How would you, what was– what was the process of doing that, where would you go?
I– I’d, um– I used to, even after school, I used to stay after school around the area, and it’s usually was around San Juan. Um, over there, where we call the “Caserios” or the projects. Um, in old San Juan, too, a lot of my friends who were artists, and they used to have a– in old San Juan they have, like, a, like, a school of, um, plastic art, I think it’s called, I think Plásticas. So, it was a mixture of that, a mixture of street, politics, art, but, but that really forms you. You know, so, you know, what I mean so, um– yeah.
Why did you wind up in Catholic school?
I have no idea. I probably did something very, uh, sinister in another life, I don’t know. I don’t know, I guess my father thought, like, you know, she, you know, let’s put her in private school because it’s a better education than just public school.
Uh–
I’m– I’m thinking that’s the logic behind–
Yeah–
It, it was a better–
What age did you start?
Yeah, from the beginning.
From– from the beginning, all the way through. Um, what didn’t– you had mentioned that you didn’t think of it as the greatest experience, what– what– what did you like or didn’t like about it?
I don’t think I liked it too much. I– I, you know, I got along with the, with people, but I think they were very– I think in Catholic school you are taught what to think and not how to think. So once you– you have an inquisitive mind, it’s almost like they shut you down and– and– and two things happened when that, when, when you know, when– when that is imposed. You either then start becoming silent, or start being a rebel.
0:13:28.3
And which, what was your version?
Yeah, the latter, yeah.
Um, you had used a, uh–
I remem– e– e– even the, even the way that they control how you, like, you know, you’re supposed to have this, you know, uniformity of looks. The– the skirt needed to be a certain length, uh– the hair I remember, a kid, um, we were already like in, I think we were in senior year and he was about to, you know, he had a Mohawk. Like, mohawks are in, but back then it was– that was mainly for like hardcore punk rock, and he had a Mohawk I was like “Oh!.” And they were not gonna let him graduate, I was like “Oh no!” So I was like, “We all need to do something, we all need to get a Mohawk here, so that they’re not gonna let us all..” And I ended up shaving my head because that was the consensus, and I was the only one that did it. But, but we were able to, we were able to, to do it– but it was– and it was those, those, uh– it was the mindset, it was just [sounds of frustration] you know? It’s just, obsolete, like yeah.
Um, what– what was it like when you were, like, hanging out outside of school. Like, you had mentioned your friends were artists. Like, what kinds of things did you do? Where– where were you hanging out? Were you at the clubs, or were you–
Everywhere we were, um. Yeah. It was– we used to be in old San Juan. There was like, in old San Juan they have, like, um, pubs or bars, uh– places to stroll, and I used to hang out a lot at the beach ‘cause I used to surf. I’m trying to think, um, yeah. That was– that– that crowd, the artistic, you know, crowd– the music crowd. But, the streets crowd was straight up in the– in the projects. And I, and I tended– before I left I was very heavily learning, uh–learning other, other things at a very, very young age, and– and that’s, I think that’s why I left. I wanted to be– I wanted be more closer to my mother, but it was more like, like I need to get out of here. Yeah.
Did you have, so– after your mother had moved to New York, did you travel back and forth to visit? Or, had–
I did, I did. I did a couple of times, in the summers. Not every summer, but I used to in the summer. So the summer we used to come to the Bronx, me and my brother, before he moved to the Bronx, to New York.
Where in the Bronx did she live?
It was around Fordham Rd. Yeah. It was in the South Bronx. And it was still very ‘80s, very, yeah. So it was almost like a fascination, and then going back to the island has a different vibe, but it has the same intensity. You know, that in the Bronx what in here, I saw something that I– that was not as palpable in there which was like the extreme poverty and, like, the conditions were different or they seemed different through my young eyes I guess. Yeah.
0:16:57.1
So as a– as you were a, kind of a younger teenager growing up in Puerto Rico, did you have romantic relationships? Did you date at all?
I– I did. But weirdly, I was more into the street life than that. I don’t know why, I started dating, like, like, around 16, 17. Yeah, I moved, I moved around–16 I moved with, um, my boyfriend and at 17 I just came here. Yeah, I did, I forgot about that. We lived in, uh, [unclear], yeah.
Did you have, uh, your friendships when you were a kid kind of growing up, did you have any really close friends?
Mhm! Yeah, very close friends. The– who I’m still in, you know, in contact and engaged and, and they kept in touch while I was incarcerated. So that’s when you know that, you know, you have close friends.
Do you feel like sharing any– any– any stories about them? Or any–
Well, there were, I think, yeah. There were um, yeah, they were teenagers, they were very, yeah. I think I was like a wild one. They were like– and they mostly were males though. I had a few female friends, but they were very non-traditional like me. You know, in Puerto Rico growing up usually– I don’t know about now but– females were very more restricted than, you know, than men.
Great. So, you had, you had said that when you decided to move to New York, it was as if you were looking for some sort of change or transition, like. What was the change you were looking for?
Safety. Um, a place I guess where I– not belong, ‘cause I– it doesn’t matter how many years I been here, it’s like something stayed there. When I go there, like, I’m like, “Okay, this is, this is where I’m from.” But, um, it was– I wanted a– I wanted– I wanted a bit of serenity or, like, peace. It was, it was intense. It was intense, I– I learned things way to early, uh– cutting drugs. At 15 I already knew how to unload a weapon, take the serial number, like– I look at my nephew who is, like, 14 and I’m like, I look how innocent he is and I’m like, “Yes.” Like, this is, you know, yeah.
[Pause]
Um–
Yeah, I– I went in–in a whole world which was very violent. And testosterone-driven. So as a female, and I’m like, I’m not this tall, you know, Amazon-like, you know, I needed to like then– be even more feisty than naturally I am. And it became– I normalized it.
0:20:06.2
So what was a– what were those, that first period of time in New York like when you were–
It was– it was a cultural shock. The weather, the disconnection of people. People seemed very distant and, sad is not the word, but removed. It doesn’t matter where you are in Puerto Rico, you still gonna get a reaction, you still gonna get a vibe, you still gonna– and here was very, like, like a blandess, I don’t know how to explain it. But people seem very, very detached. Maybe that’s the word I’m looking for, they seem very detached. And yeah, it was a– it was a struggle. I moved in with my mother for like around two weeks. Um, around two weeks. And my mother was living with her, with her husband and I– I– I– I did not mention this, but in one of my trips coming here he– he sexually abused me. Her– her husband, and I think that’s why I stopped coming in the summers and I just stayed in Puerto Rico.
0:21:30.3
I wanted to, I didn’t even want to see her. Um, but I was already grown, I wasn’t a kid. I was already grown, I was already a– a Puerto Rican involved in other things, so–
Was your mother aware that this happened?
Oh, I– I told her. I told everybody. I don’t know why I just, I kept that in– I don’t know. You know, scar t–
Was there any response?
Scar tissue is like formed on top of that wound and– and– I just decided to open that shit up. I was like, no, this shit ain’t right I’m gonna tell– and I just told everybody, my– everybody, I guess you know. And, um, he denied it and, you know, and– you know, like, I left. And it was only two weeks, so I remember I was staying in the lower east side in Alphabet City. Um, I have friends there– I don’t know, that had, like, squats that they were rebuilding and– yeah. I did that for a while and then got into what I knew.
Mhm, and what was that, how did that happen? What was the–
You meet people. You meet people, you meet people from Puerto Rico that are here, they introduce you to other people. Before you know it, you step into a whole different black hole. The only thing is that over there I had, the other– my other friends that, even though they were also teenagers, they were– they had, um, a different lens of life I think. A different way of living and we’re not as– violent or destructive, you know.
So, so you were still, you still around 17, 18 by this point or?
I want to say I was like around 19, 19. So, I dated, I lived, I lived with, um, boyfriends, one of them. As a matter fact, one of them OD’ed. One of them OD’ed, the other one got killed. Years later, lived with a female– But I was selling, I was selling, I was– yeah, I was into that whole, not big time, just enough to support myself. I would go, I, you know– but I was into that whole illicit economy.
Mm, um, were you making a good living, or was it?
Um, yeah, it was okay.
Yeah, yeah, did you feel at the time that it was worthwhile, or? Is there any point?
I felt, um, I felt already that this is a– this a world that, even though I always need to have my guard up, this is a world that I– I understand.
0:24:49.7
I understand the rules, I understand, you know, you know, and I also understand the dangers. And since I was a female I always was strapped, I always had a gun.
Was that, was that something that made you feel safer or more powerful or?
Not powerful, but, but as in, as yeah, safer.
Yeah.
Yeah. Especially in that line of, of lifestyle, yeah.
So was it, was it more of a necessity in your mind?
It was an equalizer, it was, it was– yeah, it was something that yeah! Anybody can knock me out and take what I’m transporting from one side to one side, if I’m not showing a gun. But if I have a gun, people are gonna be reluctant of like, “Okay, hold on.”
Yeah.
So it wasn’t, um, it wasn’t with the intention, but obviously it was as a protection. So, um, since we are saying the whole story, um, I, um, I was bringing something to New Jersey. Um, pulled over, um, by a police officer, um, gun was under the seat, um. The stop turned a little, a lot sexually explicit. I was still in the car, he was touching me, and I took the gun under the seat and I shot him. He did not die, but I would not be here sharing my story.
What do you think was, I mean, in the– in the, kind of like, the im– the, the– we could talk more about the actual stop and that if you want, or just kind of move on into the immediate aftermath. Like, what, what it was like when, when all of that kind of came to a head and then.
You mean the actual, the actual transgression or going into prison?
It’s up to you. Uh, so– if there’s any other details where–
Well, it happened so fast–
Yeah–
Uh, so once, once I get arrested, uh, yeah, I mean, while I’m [loud singing in the background from another room] I was going to the– I know–
[Laughter] Welcome to New York–
[Laughter] Right! I knew I was going to, um, do time. The– the weirdness about it is that before– before I went in prison, I went into prison, I knew how to do time. And to me that’s like, that’s awkward, like, I knew what things to do, what things to, you know, be aware of, but of course it’s, uh–
Were there–
It’s unsettling!
Yeah–
It’s unsettling, going into prison. It doesn’t matter if you, you know, more or less have an idea, “Okay, this is what’s going to happen,” or “be careful with this, or don’t–” It’s unsettling.
0:28:01.5
It’s– it’s– it’s traumatic. It’s traumatic. Especially with that type of transgression, going in.
Yeah.
Because people take, you know, when it comes to woman, you know, you’re supposed to adhere to this, you know, behavioral being a, you know, I don’t know– code of conduct with women, and when you are, when you do things out of that– right? Out of that, out– out of that lens, it’s– it’s almost like you are put on a different label. And– and if you don’t understand culture. If you don’t understand the context of the crime itself– so a lot of biases are placed on gender in there. Yeah. So, I went in, I knew I was gonna do time, so immediately I started building, building myself, um, analyzing–
What was that, what was the time frame? So– when the incident happened and then, I assume you were arrested that night, and then–
That day.
Yeah, and then how much time kind of elapsed between that moment and then the trial, or then, you know–
Months.
Mm. So–
Months.
Where did that, where did that take place? What town were you in?
Jersey City.
In Jersey City, and then were you– where were you taken first?
Um, to– to a precinct, um, I was beat up badly, um, taken to a precinct. I was held for hours, four hours not for like, plenty of hours, and then usual precedence with man or woman like, this is not, yeah. Yeah.
Um–
I’m go– I’m– I’m– I’m– even– and I think this also plays on gender. I think they did not kill me because I’m a woman. I– if I woulda been– as a matter of fact, if I woulda been a Black Puerto Rican, you know, I’m light skinned, that to me I e–I even look at that, I woulda been shot. I woulda been shot. Not even knowing why I shot him, none of that. I woulda been shot. And if I woulda been a man, psh, that’s not even like, that’s not even to question. That would –that’s almost a guarantee. Yeah.
0:30:40.5
I– I remember when I was getting arrested and they were like– I was covering my face and– and there was this lady sounded like, you know, an older lady, but I remember hearing like, “Leave that little girl alone.” Yeah. Cause I looked very young back then it’s a s– so I’m thinking like, and they stopped kicking me. So– she probably saved my life without even, you know, realizing it. Or realizing why they were doing that to me, right? So–
Um–
Mhm–
So then you had– how old were you?
Uh, twenty-si– 26? 26, yeah.
Ok, so you had a good amount of time when you were living, kind of like, with your group of friends, so you were mostly living in the lower east side, you said?
No, then I was there for like a year, and then I started doing my thing and I was living by myself the whole time until I got incarcerated.
So you had a–
Or with a partner or, you know. Or always with–
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you had about six or seven years living in– in New York?
More!
Yeah, yeah–
More than that.
Yeah.
Yeah, ‘cause I came– I left, I was 17, or was I– ten years? Almost like ten years.
Um, and then, so– the– the, now that the incident happens, and then you’re put into, in, in essence in the system in New Jersey.
Right.
And then, how long– you– how long did you have to wait for trial. You said a few months? Or?
Few months.
Yeah, and then what was that time, like, kind of waiting for that trial?
It was– it was hell. It– I think– I think the counties decide to have a gutting feeling, it– it kinda like, you feel gutted, like. It’s a– the conditions are just, just filthy, it’s dirty. I remember the trays, the food, I lost like thirty pounds. Like, it was, it was disgusting. The thick brown, plastic trays, cracked and the little roaches coming from inside it– I mean like, it was just, it was– yeah. Subhuman. Yeah. It was bad. It was, um–but, it’s a preparation, the way I see it, uh– so when you come into prison, it’s almost like, “Wow, at least I’m out of there.” Yeah, but it’s, it’s–yeah.
So you’re in the Hudson County, kind of like, holding?
I was in Hudson County holding in Hudson County, there. Mhm
Did you have legal counsel?
Psh, like everyone else. Like everyone else, which is–
Public Defender?
Yea, a public pretender.
0:33:42.5
Did you– so–
I later on got a lawyer, but it was already, uh– it was already– the odds were against me. Yeah. I remember my lawyer saying something to the extent of, it was something real fucked up, it was something like, uh, “To follow Jesus,” or something like that. It was very weird, and he said it because, ah, I heard that– something I don’t know if it was, I don’t know what he heard it from in my family. Somebody said something, said, “Maybe you should start–” and I was like, “What?” I was like, “Oh no, I need another, I need another, um, lawyer. Like, what, what are you talking about?” Like, I kept bringing the fact that I was– that he touched me. I was like, this needs– I know what I did, I’m totally accountable, I’m here, I know I’m gonna do time regardless, but what about him? I mean, I was trying to be transparent ‘cause at this point, I don’t, you know.
Yeah.
There’s nothing to hide. They got me with a gun. So, but no, like, you know, they– all of that goes under the rug because you’re not fighting one police officer, you’re fighting a whole precinct. You’re fighting a whole system that tries to protect, you know, the atrocities that they do. So, probably they’re like, “How dare this,” you know, “young girl,” you know, so– yeah. So it was frustrating, ‘cause I wanted that story out. Um, and I think the other lawyer tried harder with that and that’s why I ended up, um, getting uh– 15 years. Well, technically twenty years, because in New Jersey you have to do five years after you maxed out. Which to me is like, double jeopardy, I mean, what is it? Like, you know, if I’m still under parole, I’m still under some type of custody, even if it’s supervision outside. So, the twenty years, yeah. Mhm.
What, if there was something that you would, kind of like, walk away from or remember about the trial, is there one, kind of like, specific thing you remember about that experience?
Mhm, yeah, um, I remember being shackled, uh– hearing my sentence, and hearing my mom scream. The boots that I had were really big, because I guess somebody lent me boots, ‘cause they took the shoes I was wearing when I came in. And they were very big. Like, I was trying to hold ‘em with my feet and you're shackled– you know, you’re shackled from all– you know, from your ankles to your waist, and it’s hard, so I’m trying– and I remember, it’s like, I’m not. I’m– I’m leaving here with my head up high, I know that I– that what I did was messed up, I knew that. But I was like– so, um, I remember saying like, you know, looking at the cop that was there– and I said, “Why man?” And, um, the whole side, their whole side was the whole precinct, it was all blue and they started saying– they started saying a lotta stuff probably to break me.
0:37:37.1
Like, you know, “You’re gonna, gonna fry in their bitch,” duh, duh, duh, duh. And they– all types of stuff ‘til my mom was crying, and that’s when I was like, I told ‘em in Spanish, “Don’t you dare give these motherfucker’s one tear.” And I said it real loud. Yeah, I remember I told my mom that so my m– I gotta– I guess she saw my [laughter], she saw my face coming out and she was like, I was like, yeah. And that’s when I– you know– and I was like, and I looked at him again, “I’m still here.” And of course I was, you know, I was in the process of getting removed. And– that’s it, I went in. It was– you know, you’re digesting that whole– and it’s– and it’s also– you are trying to accept like, “Damn! I’m gonna spend the next fifteen years in here.” So I immediately, I did not go through, um, the stages of like a lot of women going to like, uh– into like, uh, a whole process of– of– of– of– of a self discovery process, finding themselves, I immediately, I immediately– I was in the max security. I immediately started getting into readings, books, getting back into that whole political thing, because I needed to understand. I needed to understand why most of the faces were black and brown. I needed to understand, like, you know, I knew already, but I needed, I guess I needed the theoretic part. And– and yeah. And– and that’s how I did my time. First, um, teaching myself English, um, teaching myself to analyze, or like, you know, like, use like critical analysis, sharing books. Um, informal independent studies, and– and that gave me, like, a different hunger. And from there I just kept on. Reading, studying, getting classes, until, um, I was released. Yeah.
So, what was the process– so, you know, you had this hunger, what was the process of you accessing good information. Like, how did you get access?
Well, here in United States in prison, in the prison carceral system of this great country, there’s a lot of censorship and there’s a lot of, um– there’s a lot of, uh, the access to books, you know is surveilled. They need to check what you’re reading, um, I remember, um, somebody sending me a, A Hundred Years of Solitude, smuggling, smuggling. ‘Cause I guess, Gabriel García Márquez is on top of, is on some type of list, you know. Which, um, which I was like, you know what? Send it to me in– in packs of five pages. You know, so when you have to smuggle books in here, in United States, in order to like, acquire some type of knowledge, that’s should tell you right the mindset that they want you to have.
[Editor’s note: One Hundred Years of Solitude is a landmark novel by Gabriel García Márquez that is considered his magnum opus and one of the most significant works in the Spanish literary canon]
0:41:02.1
Totally clueless. The less you build yourself, and the less– and I’m not saying that the whole– you know, because you have an educational department that brought up, you know, college and New Jersey STEP so obviously it’s not– I’m talking about systemically, ‘cause it’s not, you know, I’m– I’m not the type of person because I had that encounter with a, you know, with a police officer, I’m like, “No, no, no, no.” There were some that totally, yeah, economic reasons that were totally fair, man or woman. And there were some that was totally racists, and totally assholes. You know, it’s like you have both sides of the spectrum, so it was just a systemic part of, like, what books can I read and cannot. You know. This is– I’m not trying to build a bomb here, I’m trying to like learn, you know?
Did you, did you present that argument to whoev– to like, the warden or to the prison system or would– would anyone listen to that?
You can, you– yes of course! You grieve it!
Yeah.
You grieve it, but they deny it. This is not about them, and they were like, “Damn.” And they’re like– they used to call me Chara. Chara, well, I was like, “This a book! It’s a book, I just wanna read.” And I’m like, “You know what, okay. I’ll find a way to do it.” Yeah, I remember too that when my nephew was born, I needed to get the stories out. I was like, “There’s too much shit going on in here.” And, there was a program, I don’t know if I should say this ‘cause I wouldn’t want the program to be eliminated, but I need to– I need to share this, um, because it is of the importance to building back that bridge and– and sharing because prison– the isolation of prison, or just how this place we are so far, it’s– it’s been for those stories to be contained there, right? So, there was a program where you had, like, um, books for children, and I used to always, uh, get the– the Spanish, um, the books in Spanish. My nephew was a baby at that time, and I used to, like, whatever I was gonna say, because they didn’t know the prison, it’s like, you, they didn’t know what I was saying, and I used to pretend that I was reading the book in Spanish, ‘cause it was being recorded to be sent out, and I used to tell everything that was happening inside the prison, like. Like, for example, I’m saying it in like, “Yes, on this date,” or like, “this person, like, hanged themself,” or like that. And it was just, coming out, coming out. I was like, “I need to get this out, I don’t care if I have to smuggle what we’re doing, out, out of here,” but because the phone calls are recorded. So, I wanted to, I wanted to do that because I felt– I felt our stories needed to be liberated, you know? And, what I’m trying to say is that you look for whatever it is in order to claim your humanity, man. That’s what it was.
0:44:11.2
That’s what it was.
What was your, kind of, your family relationships like while you were inside? What was your–
My, my mother, um, my mother divorced, um, that man and she visited every single visit. For thirteen– thirteen years. Every single visit, on the weekends. I used to sometimes tell her like, “Please, give me a,” you know, “I’m gonna go through a strip search, this is so, you know, let’s see each other in a couple of weeks.”
And your father and your brother? Did you, did you ever see?
No. My father, I guess he couldn’t see me like that. I don’t really know. He– he was, um, communicating as, as far as in letters. Um, yeah, it was removed. You know, I grew up with him, but– and my brother was not allowed, because he had, um, prior, uh, conviction, so they never let him in. Which usually happens to, um, in the prison, you don’t see that many visitors as opposed to, like, male facilities.
Why is that?
Well, I think it’s a combination of– usually the men, men that, um, family, um, they have prior convictions, so they are not allowed in. Give ‘em a hard– a hard time. And with the man, you have a lot of females visiting, so you don’t have that– that problem of past convictions, you know, restraining your entrance, so– yeah.
What were your relationships like, uh, while you were serving time? Your friendships, or, did you–
They– they become family members. They become very, uh– the bond was, uh, I don’t– I don’t know how to explain it. Very deep bonds. I was very selective, too. I was cool with everybody, I’m like cordial, helped, but I was, I did not mingle with just, you know, I was very selective of who– yeah.
And what facility were you in for the bulk of–
Facility 1. Facility 1. Uh, in the main correctional facility. Clinton plantation, whatever they call it now. [laughs] Yeah.
Um–
Mhm
Any other memories of that place? That–
Many memories. Many memories, good and bad. The good ones were because of the people. The good memories was because of the people. You build, you– you, you’re growing with them. You know, you spend ten years with somebody you’re– you’re watching them unfold into, like, their whole womanhood. You’re seeing someone that when they’re, like, minors, many minors there, many waived as adults, so you’re seeing the whole, “Wow, you unfolded into–” yes! So, and you also see the opposite. You also see how the prison breaks the person– in a way that, that you can, after years you don’t recognize the person.
0:47:45.6
Lot of people are into medication. Um, you see a lot. Lot of people lose hope. Lot of people hold onto hope. Lot of people removed themselves, they stop talking, become hermits. A lot of people are out there just looking for that interaction. You see everything. So– yeah. It’s not, it’s not, I really dislike when people say, “Oh my God, it was such a blessing that I went in.” I was like, “No, no the fuck it wasn’t.” I don’t care, I don’t care what you were doing out here, there’s always the potential for transformation out here. I don’t care if you, if you’d had a hardcore, you know, addiction. I don’t care what you were– there’s always potential for change out here. Nobody has to go through that punitive extent in order to be like, “Oh, now I really have transfor–” no. Because who is to say that my transformation did not take place in three years. Who, who, who determines that, oh yeah hold, in twenty years is when she’s going to change, yeah. No. So, to me I think what happens, and I saw a lot is that people are doing– because of my time I was in the max security, so people are learning, they’re unfolding, but it comes a time in the sentence– this is like paint dry theory that they just got into this healing point that is like, okay what else? And then they start, like, regressing, they start getting angrier, they start getting, you know. And I saw that, and I was like, “Ooh.” I was like, “Ohh, I wish that never happens to me.” ‘Cause I was, kinda like, always vibrant in there, like I am. My i– yeah. I– I don’t know how I did it, I really don’t know how I did it. But it wasn’t a blessing. It was probably the longest and most difficult situation and just– yeah. Lived experience. Just because it was so, so many years.
0:50:15.8
Is there a way that you would describe, like, the person you were when you started, uh, and the person you were when, you know, the day you got out?
Wow, good question, yeah, thank you. Wow, yeah, uh– I think when I went in I was– I was still like a wild, woman-child. I was a woman, but I was still young-minded. A nomad because I was, uh, even though I had, yeah, a place but I was always traveling. No really, no sense of purpose, no guidance, no immediate, like, this is the goal I’m trying– no direction, no. And I think that when I left, because I was denied community release, even though I was the first class that graduated from New Jersey STEP, I excelled in my studies, I was a– minor infractions, uh– it was because of the crime they, um, they denied– so, I think I left– it was like a rebirth of me. I was a whole different person. A whole different person. Of course I’m still feisty, I’m a Puerto Rican, that’s never going to change. But it was, it was the way that I looked at life, the way that I looked– at what I was bringing into changing what I didn’t like without the use of– any artillery [laughs]. You know, I– I– I changed. I mellowed out. I– I– I was mature. You know? I– I– I– I started, um, I un– I unfolded, I grew into yeah, I became a woman. Yeah.
How did you first hear about the NJ-STEP program?
Well, um– they started coming when it was forming. Through the classes, I had never stopped taking classes, from the first class that they brought of criminal justice from– Princeton used to come in, different universities, colleges. I took all of them. I took all of them, I left with like, uh, the associates in like forty-eight credits. Like, I took even theology classes, like, anything that was coming in, I was like, oh, I’m gonna, yeah I’m– I’m taking the class. I needed that, I needed that stimulation. I could not remain– the routine, um, was, that was a killer because– I need to create.
0:53:13.9
There’s a need for me to create. It doesn’t matter if it was through writing, if it was through slam. If it was some– I needed to create, and– and that is devoid of that, it almost like, you know, the place is just meant to be like this monotony of repeating that same day over and over, and I was like, “Oh.” Yeah, so– when they started bringing New Jersey STEP as a full prison-mounted program with a curriculum, I was like, “Yeah.” Yeah, they, they, they even, um, Chris, um, Akins, um, went in and he spoke to me even before I think, uh, it was already like New Jersey STEP like, yeah. So yeah, from the beginning I was yeah–
How many were in that first ones?
I wanna say that the first New Jersey STEP there was people in the max taking it. I was already, it took many years. I was– it was already like 2008, 2009, I was already in minimum, um– just in minimum. I spent like, almost seven and a half, almost eight years in the max security ones, I was in minimum, I wanna say, I wanna say it was in more than ten. And I don’t know in the max, probably the same. Yeah. But– but– but education is contagious in there, so once you see one taking the classes and another class and, like– also you gonna go out to the yard. I was like, “No, I gotta write an essay.” Like, I gotta– I have– people start like, “Oh, hold on,” like and then they wanna do it, and the other one and then you see, you see really a shift that is like, that’s probably the only miracle that I saw in there is like, you see people that are like, I don’t know, more propensed to be like, you know, getting into– into shit and like into– into any fights or like, you know, arguments. Now they’re like reading and, like, studying, you know, stuff that is like– and I’m like, “Oh, shit I like this.” Yeah, that’s deep, when you start seeing that instead of fighting and yeah.
Yeah.
People changing their names, from like a gang, you know, from like a gang name, Diabla into like–na name that was given to you, or like, you know another name that is like, “Oh, but I don’t go by that name anymore.” I’m like, “Oh, wow.” So it– it’s, it saves lives, it’s, you know–
Did you–
Access to education really, yeah, is–
What was the difference in the overall–
It’s incredibly necessary–
Atmosphere of the– of the prison when that happened? So you’re seeing kind of changes in individual people?
Yeah, well, I– I saw. I– I, like I said, I saw that whole– people were conscious. People were aware of what they were doing and what they were participating, um, in. And, and– and how to carry themselves in a different way, in a different manner.
0:56:43.2
And talk to other people and school them too. That’s building right there. So I think that we were– well, we started doing– we started deconstructing, that’s what we did. We deconstructed and we build. That’s what education gave us. Yeah! Now that I think about it, that’s what it– yeah. And– and we did it inside. So I don’t know if, if they knew, uh, the intention– of course they had to, but– I don’t think they knew we were gonna take it that seriously. That we’re doing this shit outside now. And fighting while we still in there. And that’s what, that’s the beauty of it all.
You– you had mentioned something in your pre-interview about, like, kind of, your activism had started on the inside, you know. When– was there some, was there a class or was there a moment when you, kind of like, when you said, I have to, whatever is happening in here, when I get out, like, this has to continue or?
Yeah, I think, I think to my advantage, I had already– a political school of thought from Puerto Rico, that most people here, even Puerto Ricans did not have. Um– as being a colony, as being a history behind, I didn’t understand all the concepts and how they were like, you know, embedded or entrenched in the– but, but I did– so, I knew– since I was– you– you’re, kind of like, an activist in there without informally realizing it. Like, you’re organizing without even, you know, without a formal title, you’re just doing what needs to be done. So I think that, once I got out, it wasn’t like– like, “Look, this is gonna be my goal. I’m gonna be this, and I’m gonna fight for this.” It just– happened organically, for now they call me to do this, oh my God, I’m like, “Okay, like,” and I started getting called and I’m like, “hold on,” like, I’m working on a 3rd shift, you know, a factory while I’m going to school. I’m sleeping two hours, making– I was like, maybe I have other talents that I need to utilize, and that’s how I was like, you know, what, let me just, let me just start looking at this as, you know, as something I could really work employment like, you know. And also, propel the cause, right?
0:59:24.1
So– it just happened, like, it wasn’t like a plan. It– I guess it was, you know, being at the right time, meeting the right people that pulled me into, like, you know what? Work with us. Yeah.
So, just to– what was the– what was the transition process like? So from when you on the inside, to the parole process, to then transitioning out.
Transitioning out is– transitioning out is, uh, was difficult. Was an overload to the senses. Was trying to find myself as a grown woman and free. You know, um, this, uh, there’s a time warped concept when you are inside. You’re seeing the same people, but, you come out it’s almost like– uh, you feel disoriented. The thing is that, I have a very, I’m an explorer. I’m very, uh– I did not let fear paralyze me, I think a lot of people get scared, uh, because it’s just too much. And with me I always had like a– like a mindset of, like, if it’s bringing you some type of fear, then you gotta face it. So I started like, you know, exploring on my own until– until it was okay for me to, like, hold on, like, I’m making my own decisions. I’m making my own, you know. And a lot of people, sometimes it takes too long. And some people I’ve seen that they just come out and– and they are stuck, it’s almost like arrested development. It’s almost like they’re stuck on the same age they went in. And it’s like, and it’s– yeah, it’s– it’s sad. It’s sad. Um, it’s a lotta trauma. It’s a lotta healing. And usually what goes on with the– with the criminal justice, you know, reform and all this efforts, it’s all about policy. It’s all about resources for people coming back, but that trauma, and that healing component is totally– out– totally removed from the conversation and the dialogue. That restored of justice where you can like, you can start healing and, that is left out. So people find themselves, you know, even if they find their resources. Even if they find, you know, that now you’re– you’re, you’re involved in this– they’re all messed up in their interpersonal relationships. I mean, just a– but you gonna be in spirit of what complicated, you know? But I’m talking about somebody with deep levels of trauma. I know people that can’t even, like, like even having a conversation they feel like I can’t– you know, I’m like, “Yo, relax! It’s ok, just do the same way you talk to me,” like, you know. And it’s that, I know what it is. Or like, “Oh my god, I’m lost in New York.” Yo, you been out six years, let me show you where you at. It’s okay to explore. Fuck it, get lost! We don’t– what the fuck, we didn’t have GPS back in the days, you know? So, it is that. It is the effect of prison, and the many traumas because we come already with trauma inside so it’s like the accumulation of trauma.
1:03:15.2
Yeah. So I think I– I– I tend to, like, also gravitating to, like, the groups in New York that are eel– that are doing, like, healing justice.
Mm, mhm.
Through music, through dance, through poetry– I don’t know I’m like, okay let me see how they doing it, let me see how they are interacting in their personal life, ‘cause I’ll be the one getting calls at one in the morning ‘cause I’m going through this, and I’m like, “Oh shit, what the fuck did I go to social workers?” I am [laughs], this is, this is not for me, I’m still trying to like, you know, find my own way, so you know. Of course you– you suggest. You, you know, you are there for– for people, but I think that is lost from the dialogue. Not lost, it’s just not there as much as it needs to be. With the urgency it needs to be, you know, incorporated.
What kinds of specific campaigns are you working on right now?
Okay, so I am, I am more involved with federal stuff. So, basically it’s, um, unlock higher, um, unlock higher education coalition. Which is all around education as far as removing barriers for formally incarcerated in– in those, you know, uh– currently incarcerated. So, currently incarcerated will be like, of course, that whole crime bill and they’ll, you know, undoing the whole Pell Grant, Pell Grant needs to be universal, reinstated. It doesn’t matter length of time, conviction.
Can you explain a little bit, like, why the Pell Grant is important for that program?
Pell Grant is important because that’s access, and access to education gives you skills. Give you a way to be more equipped to handle and navigate, you know, life when you come out. It builds you up, it gives you a different pathway. It makes you understand the same systems that got you– that got you in there, got you, you know, selling drugs. Uh, being into, you know, you know, resorting to violence, you know, it makes you, it gives you understanding so that you know that it wasn’t pathological, or that it was you. It was systemic. And of course, you still gonna have individual accountability, but it gives you perspective, right? So, that is new because we are– most people are people that come from a lack of access in many ways. Systems have already failed us. That’s the way I see it. When I moved here, I remember I wanted to go to school. I was like, “Oh, I’m gonna–” I couldn’t afford it, I wanted to go to NYU. I wanted to NY– maybe go into, like, some it w– and– and– and it was, you know, I couldn’t afford it. I couldn’t afford it. Maybe access to education would of gave me another pathway.
1:06:21.3
So– yeah, education’s extremely important. Um, I, um– what else I’m involved with? I’m definitely, um– that’s federal. I’m in– I’m involved with parole justice, uh– which has many, uh, bills. I’m involved with the closing of Rikers
[Editors Note: Rikers is home to New York City’s main jail complex, one of the world’s largest correctional institutions and has developed a reputation for abuse and neglect of its inmates.]
What’s the– what’s the campaigner, what’s the, what’s the hope for?
The hope is for Rikers to be closed. Rikers has a history of, of just, um, racism and slavery from the Rickers family back in the 1600s to the 1800s. It is built on– on– on– on toxic wasteland, so even the staff there– it’s environmental justice too, like, you know. It’s– it’s– it’s– it’s just, um, it’s just an atrocity. And if we are so progressive, as New York, you know, claims to be. It should not, it should not, it should have better ways of– of fair healing justice. So, um, let me see, what else? And restoration of voting rights, yeah.
Why is, why are voting rights important? To restore?
Voting rights are important because if I am going to use my full citizenship, right? And exercise my right as a citizen, I need to be part of the democratic, you know, uh, political process. I need, you know, I need to be included– I need to claim back that power and shift it. Yeah. It is a– that it’s extremely important for people that have been disenfranchised. Extremely important. It is undoing the whole historical uh, disenfranchisement– franchisement of people that– that have been made invisible and left out. How are we going to be agents of change when you are not even part of the conversation? And– and– and– and– and– and even less you’re not even allowed to vote. Just because you have, you know, excluded us for racial, probably racial reasons. Yeah. Exclusionary policies don’t help anybody. It just maintains a certain status quo that obviously is not working. So yeah, and I think we need to be part of the conversation. There’s too many of us that are coming out, too many of us inside. We are part of the fabric of United States right now. We still are. And if we are, and if– and if the voting process is such a democratic pillar, how can we not be part of the conversation?
1:09:36.5
Yeah.
[Pause]
What’s, uh, what’s next for you in your life? What is your, what does your life look like?
Mm, I want to even get more involved. More engaged. I just opened a chapter of All of Us or None in New York, which is a national grassroots that comes, uh, headquarters in, like, Bay Area in California, but it’s national and I want to use that as a platform to bring– sometimes we’re in New York and we know each other, because we see each other in avenue, we see each other at panels, events, and we need– instead of me having a bunch of numbers of what you up to, I want to have a platform where we come and we– and– and– and– and I know exactly what policy are you working, what event, what it’s– what’s happening in your life. Also, for the people coming out so that we can give resources. You know, we can tell them, okay go to this place and I want to bring that healing component. I want to have like a three, I want people to be able to be able to be in a safe spaces. And talk about stuff. Like, “I’m going through this,” “Oh yeah, don’t worry, this– you’re not going crazy. I went through this to.” Like, you know. We– we need to– there’s a lot of healing, a lot of stuff to be done, but– and I– and I love that it’s– it’s called All of Us or None. And– and it comes back from the, you know, concept of the Black Panthers way back in the ‘70s. But I love that, even though I started the chapter, I tell people, “I– I’m grassroots. I don’t like the spotlight. I don’t to–” If I have to be there in order to– to push and they– you know, uh, you know our voices forward, yes, but– it’s– it’s, you know, we all need, and we all bring, you know– your expertise. Like, I know, um, I know a woman that are, like, excellent with, with like healing practices and going back to like, old, old traditional ways that are like– I’m like, you know what? You n– you need to bring that here so we can learn. And if I’m working on this policy, hear me out, what are you working on? Or like, you know. It’s almost like a collective of, you know, that’s what I’m trying to do. Um, also, of course, we’ll work and I want to, I want to finish my Masters. I definitely want to finish my Masters.
In what?
I don’t know, I don’t know, it has to be something with– multidisciplinary like, you know. With history. Ethnic studies. Organizing. I don’t know. I don’t know yet. But I– I want something I, I– my Bachelors is– I have a– a double major in Sociology and Social. I– I want something else.
1:12:50.9
Social Work is a very– has a history of very controlling, very– you know, I mean, you use it differently, but I want– I want something else. I have something else. I have a different fire. So– yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know yet. But, I want to do this this coming year. Not in the distant future, I want to do this in the coming year. I would like an opportunity through NYU and Columbia, and I’m thinking I don’t have the money, but if, if it’s the possibility there for me, I’m jumping on it. I don’t care if I sleep one hour, but I’ll, yeah, I’ll manage. Yeah, that’s it for now! [laughter]
[laughter] That’s enough.
That– yeah.
Uh, I– I was gonna ask, was there anything that you were expecting me to ask, that I didn’t ask? Was there any question that you thought might come up, that I didn’t ask?
No, not really.
Alright.
Mm.
Um, the uh– the– is there anything else, uh, I guess– anything else that– I don’t think there’s anything else that I wanted to, kind of like, circle back round, we got round to most of it. As long as there isn’t anything that you felt is left unsaid, or–
Well, it’s always so much to, right, to one’s story that yes! Always, there’s a lot of stuff left unsaid, but– but for the sake of, right? All the time that it takes is I think– yeah. Yeah. And you guys can always, I don’t know, follow up with me and if you have another qu– I don’t know, I’m– I’m very– I’m very open with my life. Yeah. The good and the bad.
I’m gonna go ahead and stop the recorder there.
1:14:29.5