Pat Sheehan

Pat Sheehan talks about her time in government, specifically about her time she spent as a part of the “New Five” and as the mayor of New Brunswick (1967-1974). She reflects on the importance of service in the work that public officials do, emphasizing that a care about one’s constituencies should be the primary concern of those in office.

“When you get down to the nitty gritty, there are rights and wrongs on both sides and you have to try to bring people together.”
— Pat Sheehan

ANNOTATIONS

1. Women's Clubs - Women's Clubs were important fixtures within the American cultural landscape in the first half of the 1900s. These clubs, although at first segregated, were often at the forefront of social change within America. Women's clubs founded mutual benefit societies, settlement homes, and schools within their communities. They formed support systems within their own states. Prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, clubs in the North helped Blacks escaping the South to settle within their new communities. Church participation and community involvement were important to these clubs, and, as Mayor Sheehan mentions, crucial in avoiding violent conflict as the Civil Rights Movement took hold of the country. The New Jersey State Federation of Women's Clubs of GFWC (NJSFWC), a member of the General Federation of Women's Clubs, was founded in 1894. The headquarters of NJSFWC began construction in New Brunswick in 1964, only a few years before Mayor Sheehan took office.
2. Benevolent and Protective Order of the Elks - As Mayor Sheehan mentions, the Elks Club is a fraternal order in America. Founded in 1868 as a social club, the original members of what would become the Elks Club were a group of minstrel performers who called themselves "The Jolly Corks." The minstrel performers performed in blackface, setting the tone for what would become requirements for admission to the Elks. Admission to the club is by invitation only, and is only granted to male American citizens over the age of 21 who believe in God and who are of "good moral character." Before Mayor Sheehan's election, no woman had held office within New Brunswick. Additionally, until the 1960s, no person of color had run for office or been elected to office within New Brunswick. As invitations to join the Elks were passed down between friends and allies, the group of men within the Elks remained generally homogeneous in terms of demographics: white, Protestant, cisgender men. As late as the 1990s, the Elks Organization has been under investigation for Civil Rights violations due to a number of Black applicants who were refused admittance to the organization despite meeting qualifications.
3. Municipal Leadership within the Black Community - During the 1960s, non-violent protests were organized within the New Brunswick community by community leaders who sought to mitigate violence through speeches, organized gatherings, and protests at government buildings. These non-violent protests took place specifically in towns where the strong presence of peaceful figureheads in the community cooled tensions between police officers and protesters. President Lyndon B. Johnson established The National Advisory Committee on Civil Disorders in 1967, and Mayor Sheehan was cited as being one of the only mayors in the nation to de-escalate the conflicts in her city. Mayor Sheehan states that the number of Black officers within the police force helped to significantly calm crowds during the protests. Officers within crowds called for peace, and Mayor Sheehan ordered police officers to withdraw from violent resorts. The police officers' push to get angry youth protestors off the street and pledge to get to the source of the community's anger helped to maintain control over protests within New Brunswick. Because the New Brunswick police force was comprised of Black members of the community, officers served as go-betweens for angry protesters and the police force. Plain clothes Black police officers were often sent into the city to dispell rumors and act as counter-protesters within large crowds. Additionally, a Black police officer, Lieutenant John Broshaw, was appointed as the community liason. Broshaw reported directly to the mayor about concerns within the community and assisted in targeting areas where unrest may have occured or was occuring.
4. Religious Leaders within the Black Community - During the Civil Rights Era, church leaders were prominent organizers of community outreach and peaceful protests. Within New Brunswick, several prominent churches were centers for community organization. One such church, the Mount Zion African Methodist Episcopal Church, was associated with two prominent figures within the community in the 1960s: Reverend James W. Waters and Reverend Henry A. Hildebrand. Rev. Waters was the first Black man to run for public office in New Brunswick; he was a member of both the Ministerial Alliance of New Brunswick and the New Brunswick Council of Churches. In 1964, Mount Zion AME spoke about the need for accessible parking within New Brunswick, as well as the "crying need" for a Youth Center in order to invest in the community's future. These, among other acknowledgements, highlight the religious leadership of this time.
5. White Supremacy - At the end of World War I, a labor and agricultural shortage due to the number of conscripted soldiers was inflamed by political and social unrest within Austria-Hungary. As new immigrants were brought into the country to offset this labor shortfall, social reformers and eugenicists clashed over how to save the country as population demographics fluctuated. In response to these arguments, the Hungarian Society for Racial Hygiene and Population Policy, as well as the National Welfare Office for Disabled Servicemen, were formed in 1917. As radicals moved forward with calls of forced sterilizations, and the culling those considered morally reprehensible or those who relied on social services, white nationalists took hold of the government and began to execute those who did not represent who they felt the state of Hungary should be represented by. In the early 1900s, large numbers of Austrian and Hungarian citizens were freely immigrating to the United States, making up a large subsect of both short and long term laborers. New Brunswick, New Jersey itself had a large population of Hungarian immigrants—in 1915, twenty percent of the city's population were Hungarians primarily drawn to the city by Johnson and Johnson's available factory work. The nationalism of second wave of Hungarian citizens followed tensions revolving around the rise of the Soviet Union; Hungarians who had lived under an authoritarian regime began to influence American politics and ideas of country. Anti-immigrant and anti-foreign xenophobia, sentiments already shared by many Americans and Hungarian citizens, helped pave the way for white nationalism to take hold within communities, especially as media outlets took "us vs. them" as common talking points during WWI and WWII.
6. "White Flight" - "White flight", a term popularized in the 1950s and 1960s, is a phenomenon where groups of white people relocate from areas where there is a perceived threat to their white culture or status. After the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which outlawed the segregation of schools, groups of white Americans began to flee from cities to the suburbs in an attempt to prevent their children from attending desegregated schools. According to studies of population demographics of major cities in America, cities that experience large influxes of African Americans will most likely also experience large populations of white community members moving from that city within that same time period. These influxes of new Black community members also led to a decrease in demand for city residences and falling housing prices within those areas. Today, white flight still occurs within communities with large influxes of not just Black residents, but also Arab Americans, Latino Americans, and Asian Americans. According to recent studies, the percentage of people of color within neighborhoods directly correlates with white Americans' perception of safety and access to resources, which contributes to the exodus of white Americans from cities.
7. The Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 (The G.I. Bill) - In 1944, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the Servicemen's Readjustment Act, commonly referred to as the G.I. Bill. The G.I. Bill, ("General Infantry" Bill) took several steps to insure that veterans returning from war would be able to successfully re-enter their communities. Some of the provisions of the Bill include: educational benefits for those who wish to obtain collegiate degrees, additional funding for veterans' hospitals, employment and counseling services, and housing benefits. As Mayor Sheehan mentions, the G.I. Bill was limited in the security it provided for returning veterans. For example, veterans were not directly given loans to get mortgages through this bill, although the government did provide guarantees as credit for those who could secure loans. Additionally, in order to prevent challenges to the Jim Crow laws, senators fought to have individual states distribute the perks of the bill. Redlining and discriminatory banks ultimately led to millions of Black veterans who could not secure housing, even with the government's backing of the loans. This discrimination was not limited to the Southern states; historian Ira Katznelson has noted that between New York and several northern New Jersey suburbs in the decade following 1944, "fewer than 100 of the 67,000 mortgages insured by the GI bill supported home purchases by non-whites.”
8. Gentrification and Community Displacement - Gentrification is the expansion of wealthier populations into poorer urban areas. When gentrification occurs, property taxes and cost of living increases occur, which prices out members of the community who have lived there for a substantial amount of time. Often, low-income communities are forced out of cities with access to mass transit and jobs. Gentrification disproportionately affects low income communities of color. The lack of rent control contributes massively to housing crises directly related to a rising cost of living. In the 1960s, the loss of factory jobs from New Brunswick led to a change in demographic and contributed to the "white flight" already occurring within the city. Financial disinvestments over the course of the decade led to an impoverished city in the 1970s, when local government began its focus on financial investment within the business and cultural centers of the city. However, these financial investments did not include housing or residential districts. Additionally, New Brunswick houses Rutgers University, which contributes to rising housing costs—more money can be made from housing several students in a house than by renting a house to one family, or by including a house for Section 8 Housing Vouchers. In short, housing prices continue to rise yearly with little done within the community or city itself to aid struggling families.
9. Racial Tension in New Jersey - Plainfield, New Jersey was involved in the riots that took place during what is known as "The Long, Hot Summer of 1967." During this time period, 157 race protests broke out across the United States. Frustrations within the Black community over poverty, unemployment, police brutality and systemic discrimination against Black Owned businesses had reached their tipping point. The second most deadly riot in New Jersey's history took place in Plainfield—the most destructive being in Newark, only eighteen miles away, during the same time period. Mayor Sheehan mentions the Camden race riots. However, these riots did not occur until 1969 and 1971. These two riots were both in response to police brutality within the city.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by John Keller

New Brunswick, New Jersey

October 20, 2021

Transcription by Allison Baldwin

Annotations by Hannah M’Lynn


0:00

So, if you’re good to go we can just get started. 

Let’s plunge right in. 

Great. So, uh, I’m John Keller, the Director of Education at coLAB Arts, located today at 9 Bayard Street at the First Reformed Church Randolph Room in the city of New Brunswick and we are interviewing– your name?

I’m Pat Sheehan.

And what town do you currently reside in?

I reside in a place called Avalon by the Sea, which is a fun place to retire too. 

And do you mind sharing your birthdate?

2/22/1934

And where were you born?

Newark, New Jersey. I’m a Jersey girl through and through. 

And, when you were born, were there any kind of family stories around the day you were born? 

Uh– no. I came, I saw, I conquered. What can I tell you?

What was your family structure like?

I’m an only child. So, I was the queen bee. 

And was there, like, any other extended family around when you were growing up?

Yeah, my mother and my dad were both born in Ireland. She in the north, he in the south. So, we started off with our own built-in conflict, if you will, and then there never was any conflict. And my father, my grandfather, I guess, was one of five brothers and four of them came to the United States. My grandfather was the only one who stayed in Ireland and ultimately London and I had lots of cousins. And, as an only child, cousins were a big deal because they were the whole banana. 

What were some things that were particularly important to your family, as in things you would do as a family, you know?

Well, visiting other family members. Newark, New Brunswick, and I guess, Paterson were the focus of where the various relatives had landed and started families. So we did a lot of visiting in between and sightseeing. A day at the beach, a day at the mountains, a day in New York. That kind of thing. 

What did your parents do to support the family? What was their profession?

My father worked, my mother did not, until many years later, and he was a sprinkler fitter. Which is, you can’t see any here. but the little fittings you see on the ceilings in buildings. Water protection, fire protection. 

And, was he working in the Newark area?

Yeah. Local. 696. 

What was– do you have any particularly fond memories of them as a kid?

Oh, yeah. They kept me. I kept them. We were a close family, I guess. It was just the three of us. And we did a lot of things together. I was never abandoned anywhere on a street corner, so I think that’s all a plus. I was lucky growing up.

Did you grow up in an apartment building, or–

Yes. 

What was that like?

Well, I didn’t know anything else, so it was fine.

Did you connect with any of any non-family related neighbors or families in the street? What were your– did you have early friendships?

Oh, sure. The rule was that I had to be home for dinner. We were quite close to the church and, uh, Mr. Carlin was the name of the sexton and he rang the Angelus bells at six o’clock. And I gotta tell you that there were some times that I had to run home like a demon to get home before those bells stopped. You keep ringing those bells.  We would go by those bells and that was the neighborhood and that’s where we played. 

Where was– where in Newark was it? Did the church have a name? Where was it?

Down on South Broad Street, down. St. Colombo was the name of the Church on Pennsylvania Avenue. 

5:00

And, uh, when you got older and you started school, did you like school?

Oh yeah. I went to Benediction Academy in Elizabeth, New Jersey and that was a 49 bus ride. You go Clinton Avenue right into Elizabeth and the school was right on the Elizabeth/Hillside line. In those days, we had bus tickets and, you know, greatly reduced fare and, uh, to stay on the bus until the door of the school, that was two tickets. So, we all got off at the hillside border and walked the block to get to school to save that bus ticket. 

What subjects or topics did you like about school? Was there anything you excelled at or were passionate about?

Well, certainly not Mathematics. History. I ended up a history and government major in college and I guess that started in grammar school.  I was a good speller. 

You mentioned college. Was it kind of a forgone conclusion in your family that you would go to college? Was that–

Well, that was the hope and the expectation. 

Did you have any other family members or peers at the time who had the same kind of expectation? Were you different?

No, I don’t think so. The alternative to college was secretarial school or nursing school, and the principal of Benediction was of the mind that everybody benefited from a general education. And when we graduated from high school, that was the time to spin off into secretarial school or nursing school or whatever. Or a job.

And, the kind of the– I guess my question is, could you describe what the area was like at that time, what Newark was like at that time to grow up? So, as you were a teen, your formative years, what was that like? How would you describe the city of Newark at that time? What were your experiences in the city?

Well, I’m not sure that I can because I didn’t really have anything to compare it to. Everything was convenient. There was a multitude of services by bus, to go everywhere and anywhere that we wanted to go. There were parades and there was shopping and it was a good place. 

Um, so what was your college experience?

I went to Trinity College, now University, in Washington DC and I can recommend Washington DC as a place for anybody and everybody. It’s a wonderful place to be. Always something going on and lots of it free. You know, the museums and the field trips and what not. Which were no charge and, of course, there is the seat of government, seat of all the action. So, I think Washington then and Washington now is still a good place to be. 

During this time, in your formative years and into college, were you starting to have romantic relationships?

Well, I had a boyfriend or two, I’m pretty sure.

Anything serious?

Not until probably–

Well, the young man that I ultimately married, in those days you had a two year army commitment and he chose to take his two years in the army before he went to graduate school. And so he was on his way to Georgetown Law School and it was my senior year in college. And he was like, “Oh, you’ll love Washington. Call me, I’ll fix you up.” And that was the start of the grand romance, if you will. 

[Editor’s Note: In September of 1940, the United States signed into law the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940. This act required men between the ages of 21 and 35 to sign up for the Draft, which conscripted men into military service via a lottery system. Because of Mayor Sheehan's husband's occupation and education level, Mr. Sheehan was eligible for a deferral from the front lines and was able to immediately take the role of general for two years. By doing so, Mr. Sheehan became eligible for the G.I. Bill's coverage, allowing for his education to be paid for in full by the U.S. government.]

What was his name?

Daniel.

10:00

What was the thing about him that connected you two?

I have no idea. But we connected. 

Okay, so you had met before you had graduated college, or shortly after?

It was, uh, my senior year, I guess. In college. And that ultimately turned into his first year in law school. 

And so, when you were in college, where you starting to make plans on what would be next or, how did you– did you–

Oh, who knows? I didn’t sit down and plan out my life. But I enjoyed it to the fullest.

So, what was your next step?

I came home for the summer and finished my last summer job commitment at Dolly Madison Ice Cream in what we call Down Neck Newark and then went to Washington to find an apartment with another classmate from Trinity. And a job. In Washington. I did want to stay in Washington so that’s what I did. 

What was the job?

It was, uh, it was statistics. You would call it personnel then, now Human Relations for a Trade Association of [unintelligible]. 

Did you have, I mean you said you were someone that didn’t sit down and plan things out, plan your life out, but did you, like– were you kind of strategizing, like, these are the things I’m interested in, this is the direction I want to go? Did you make– think about that at that time?

No. I wanted a job in Washington so I could stay in Washington. 

To experience what the life was like there?

Yeah, I liked Washington. Still do. 

And, at that time, were you continuing your relationship with your [unintelligible]–

Well, I suppose you could say I started a relationship. There wasn’t anything to continue?

What was the work like? Working for that first–

Oh, I liked that a lot. Good people. As I said, it was a trade association of the airlines, and we were located at what was then national airport, and I shared an apartment with another classmate from Trinity, and she was a chemist. Scientist then and now. Always had the upper hand. While I’m scrounging for job opportunities, she’s sorting through the opportunities that are piling in the window and so Katherine took a job with NIH [National Institutes of Health] and I took her job with the airline, so we had an apartment on Connecticut Avenue in Washington and we went out in the morning and she took a bus going south and I took a bus going north, so it was an ideal location for both of us. And we were there for several years and it worked out very well. 

What was– how long did you stay? At that job?

Probably three years.

What was the reason for leaving the job?

I came home to get married. In New Jersey. 

And I don’t think I asked, where was your husband from?

New Jersey. Highland Park, New Jersey. Right outside of New Brunswick. In fact, he went to St. Peter's High School. I didn’t know him then, but–

What was that transition like, coming back to the state? What did you land? Did you land in Highland Park or–

No, no. I landed at home and we got married and got an apartment in New Brunswick.

Where?

Nickel Avenue, almost on the Douglass campus. 

15:00

What was that early time like, moving back?

Well, a lot of good times. A lot of our friends, both of us having gone to school here, knew a lot of people. And so, I guess we were the young social set, if there was such a thing. 

What was your– you had mentioned earlier that you would visit extended family, that New Brunswick was one of the locations–

Right. Right. One of the brothers that I had mentioned earlier, of my grandfather, he settled and raised his family, which turned out to be an extended family, in the New Brunswick area, so it was a lot of cousins around.

And, I don’t think I ever asked this either, so is your married name Sheehan or is your maiden name Sheehan?

My married name is Sheehan. My maiden name is Queenan. 

Was that the name of the family that was in the area?

Right.

So, what was your– moving back to New Brunswick after having this experience in Washington DC, you know New Brunswick from seeing extended family, but what are your impressions of the city at that time? What did you observe? What did it look like? What did it feel like?

Well, I don’t really know how to answer that. It felt like Newark or Trenton or Paterson or any other city. They were all very similar at that time. Convenient. Buses were available– I didn’t drive. We had one car in my family and the chances of me getting a car and my father walking or taking the bus just wasn’t an option. And, so, I had no incentive to learn to drive. Besides which, you could get everywhere on a bus. Or a train.

Was there a lot to do in the city at that time?

I thought so.

When you were out of your space, what would you– what kinds of activities would you do?

Well, there were movies. There was shopping. I belonged to a couple organizations and those had meetings and events and planning to do. I managed to keep busy.

What organizations were you part of specifically?

Well, there was, at that time, the junior women’s club, a far cry from the senior women’s club, trust me. And, um, I don’t even remember, but I seem to recall being a part of a couple of church organizations. It was a lot to do. 

[Annotation 1]

Did you join a parish when you moved to New Brunswick?

Yeah, yeah, St. Peter's Parish, which you know, right?

Yeah.

They closed the schools. Can you believe that?

What was– so, you and your husband were setting up your lives when you moved to New Brunswick. Were you getting back to work when you moved to New Brunswick?

Oh yeah.

Where were you working?

I don’t know. Come to think about it. He was setting up a practice and it was kind of a blank in my mind to be honest. 

That’s okay. What was your husband’s practice? What was he setting up?

He was a trial lawyer and he was happiest when he was in the courtroom. And some of the old guard was like, “Dan, you don’t make any money in the courtroom.” To them, real estate and law and getting people together was the way they do it. If you were in the courtroom, you weren’t in the office, ergo, you weren’t making any money. But he was only happy when he was in the courtroom. 

What was kind of the next big transition for the two of you as a couple? So, you moved back to New Brunswick, how long were you living on Nickel Avenue?

That’s where he was born, Nickel Avenue, St. Peter’s. I don’t know. We were busy like any couples and uh–

20:00

I was working for the– Ahh! The Educational Testing Service. I worked for them in their research department. And commuted from New Brunswick to Princeton where they were then located. Thank God I left them long before they moved because they were out in the woods somewhere. I didn’t know where to go. If you– to get there, if you were dependent on public transportation. But I didn’t have that bridge to cross. So, I was at ETS, yeah. Right there on, what’s that? Nassau Street. 

Do you remember the year you moved back to New Brunswick before/with your husband?

I have no idea. I’m the worst. I have a time warp. You can’t trust me on time clocks?

When were your kids born?

That seems like– Danny would have been ‘61 and Michael is 60, so maybe you do the math.

I’m sorry, they would have been born about 1960 and 1961, is that about right?

Uh. You can get those numbers from Betsy. 

Yeah, so you started your family. How long were you in the apartment? When did you move from the apartment? 

We moved– we were in New Brunswick. We moved from Nickel Avenue to Galavent Street. 

In a house?

In the second floor of a two-family house. 

So, you were raising a young family in New Brunswick and you were involved in these specific organizations, was that sort of the start of the process of you getting involved in politics?

Oh, no, no. The only reason I ran in the first place was because, you know, have mouth will travel. I was more than willing to speak and jim things up. But I had no concept of actually being involved and being elected. That was the furthest thought from my mind. 

[Editor’s Note: The turn of phrase Mayor Sheehan uses was popularized by a television show called Have Gun - Will Travel which ran from 1957-1963. Its earliest usage in media can be traced to actor Bob Hope's autobiography: Have Tux, Will Travel. The phrase is used to describe someone who has the tools necessary to accomplish certain tasks. Here, Patricia is explaining that because she was a great speaker, she was able to win her election.]

What were some of the things that were frustrating you, or that you were talking about or complaining about or–

Oh. Representation. If you didn’t play cards at the ELKS at four o’clock on Thursdays you had no say. If you weren’t white and male, either Hungarian, Italian, or Irish, you had no say.

And what were some of the things that you wanted to say and that you thought people wanted to hear?

Well, the mayor had been in office for twenty-seven years and, as I said, it had been segregated to the male and we wanted a change. We wanted to be part of it and we wanted a change, and I was happy to run and add some mouth to the ticket. I had no concept of “Who in New Brunswick would go for a woman?” and, twenty years later, I haven’t recovered from that yet. 

[Annotation 2]

You had mentioned the kind of cultural and ethnic segregation. Were you also a aware at the time, or were you becoming aware of the racial segregation that existed in the city and how those tensions were–

Well, we were way ahead of the curve in that respect, which proved itself in the difficulties of ’67. Because we had stable, well-established representatives of the Black community. And they weren’t all stuffed in one place and shoved to the side. They were participants. So, in that respect, we were ahead of the game.

How would you define– could you speak more to that? What was that relationship dynamic between the leaders of the various groups within the city?

Well, as I said, what was very important was that we had an established, long-term Black community or at least Black representatives who had been part of the community for a long time. We had police members, we had officers in the police department that were Black. Uh, we had church leaders that were long established and very influential with what happened in the town. Not only from St. Peter’s and Sacred Heart, but from AME [African Methodist Episcopal Church] and Sacred Heart, so that, as it turned out, was very, very important to the survival of the city in the 60s. 

What were some of the things that eventually led you to running for office or creating the New Five group?

Well, I was going to add, as I said, the mouth. And no, no designs or expectations of winning at all. I thought I could contribute to the ticket and was happy to do that. 

26:31

How did you get placed into the circumstance of being mayor?

Well, that was a sore point for many in that the election before–

Well, first, we called ourselves the New Five. They called themselves the Good Five. We called them the Old Five. You know, it got to be kind of a chuckle. And, uh, we wanted to be part of the government. Or at least have a say in what’s going on. And, as I say, we’re not the Thursday, four o’clock at the ELKS that controlled everything.

[Annotation 2]

So, what was the year that you came into office?

1967.

So, it would have been early of that year or late Spring?

May 1st, I believe. May 9th? May 1st? First week in May.

And then, what was your– you know, there’s obviously a cultural awareness of what’s going on throughout the rest of the country, during that summer, during that year specifically– did you have an expectation of what the next few months or the next year would look like in the city of New Brunswick? Or was it all happening at one time?

Well, it was all happening in real time, but we had, as it turned out, in retrospect, advantages. A) The people who were causing a disturbance were our people. Had lived in New Brunswick, had been in New Brunswick for a long time. There were no buses coming in from South Carolina or Trenton or anywhere else. Which other towns, particularly Plainfield and Newark had that kind of a problem. Influx of people anxious to upset the apple cart. We were dealing with our own people. And that, as I say, turned out to be a significant plus in keeping things quiet. We had a suitable disturbance. We did not have a riot. We did not have violence. We did not have looting. And I think it was because of that stable base that contributed to the overall– everybody had a vested interest in keeping things calm and moving forward as opposed to destroying it. 

[Annotation 3]

You had mentioned at another part of that conversation that there had been other established Black leaders in the community and there were points of communication.

Oh yeah. 

How would you describe it? Is there a way that you could further explain how those dynamics worked, how you all talked?

Well, they were critical. In that the Black church leaders certainly had roots in the community and influence and congregations. And they were a factor in keeping the city calm and moving forward as opposed to destroying. And the fact that we had a significant number of Blacks in the police department. I mean, Captain Broshaw was all by himself a dynamo and a factor. 

[Annotation 4]

30:10

In keeping things on an even keel. I’m not sure other places had those advantages. I didn’t realize at the time that they were advantages, but they certainly were. 

Could you– is there a way that you could describe, specifically, what the Black community was challenging at the time? What were the goals? What were the goals of the racial justice movement at that time? How would you define what they wanted to see happen in New Brunswick?

Same thing that everyone wanted everywhere else. Jobs, good schools, opportunities, involvement on an equal basis. Pretty basic.

So, did you find– what was the dynamic of mediating those conversations? Was there anyone that was kind of pushing you to not have conversations with the community or–

It didn’t matter. I would talk to anybody and it turned out that I did. And I would meet with anyone. Uh, you know, whether it was a bunch of teenage rebels. There are always teenage rebels. Or, uh, senior citizens, or operators, if you will, with their own agenda, their own claims to disparagement, if you will. And I would meet with anyone. And did, in fact. One of the scariest meetings, if you will, and I don’t mean to malign tow truck operators, but there was a group of them and that was a pretty scary outcome. I mean, physically scary. 

It turned out, you know, they were like everybody else, they were fighting at that time against the credit card, and people were pushing to use the credit card and they were like, “Look, they pay by credit card and then they go home and cancel the charge and we get nothing. Who is going to sue for a six dollar cab ride and we are a ten dollar tow?” And so it turned out, and I suppose this is true of everything, that when you got down to the nitty gritty, there were rights and wrongs on both sides and you had to try to bring people together. The only way you can do that is talk to them, meet with them, be open with them, and if I had any claim to fame, I think that was my success. Nobody was shut out. Everybody had a seat at the table. 

Did you ever find yourself in a position where you were having a conversation about [noises], about what the Black community was requesting and you had a [noises, break for water] where you kind of had to– to mediate, for lack of a better term, racist sentiments or behaviors or–

Oh, sure. 

Yeah.

That happened all the time. 

Yeah.

We had a meeting up in– it’s– the Hungarian Hall I guess it was and, because this is a very ethnic community, been around a long time, and we had a meeting up there and I can’t remember the bywords now, but it was pretty ugly. [Whispers] You just have to talk to people. If you have respect for the person that you’re speaking with, they sense that and that helps, even if in a mob situation.

I guess what was the– perhaps, even if you would be interested in more detail on what those settings were like, like how those conversations that you were having– where would they take place and how were they organized and, you know.

One of them was organized by POWER and POWER stood for Protection of White Equal Rights and that was taking place in [unintelligible] in Hungarian Hall and the whites were the ones being hurt and maligned and whatever and so meeting with POWER was always an invention, physically unnerving. But, you know, nobody threw me down the stairs or anything like that. 

[Annotation 5]

35:40

How would you– what kinds of– we talked about the importance of listening, certainly, but what kinds of– how would you present the need to move forward, or how would you negotiate in those kinds of settings. 

Well, I didn’t try to out yell them. I don’t really know. I think a lot of it was that I got brownie points for showing up and was fairly open and tried to be fairly open with people and I suppose that helped. I mean, by and large people just wanted to be left alone. And survive. Go to work, feed their family. It was restless, unsettling to everybody. 

So, you came into office. Very shortly after you coming into office is the Summer of ’67. What happens next in the city? What’s the dynamic? Next is perhaps the wrong way to say it, but what is the evolution out of that time?

Well, basically we just soldiered on. We tried to be open, tried to present more opportunities. Summer jobs was always a big issue. If you didn’t have kids with summer jobs, you had kids causing trouble on the street corner. And so you just forged ahead, one foot past the other and, uh, had a lot of help. As I mentioned, the fact that we had Black police in place and members of the Black community who were police and officers in place did a long step in, not resolving, but at least containing some of the hotheads. We also were, like’m or lump’m, dealing with our own people and I think that was a big part of being able to survive that summer and move forward. Because we didn’t have bus loads coming from somewhere, agitators coming from, you know, like Plainfield. Many, not all, in Plainfield were from out of town. We didn’t have that. Whether that was my [unintelligible] or my good luck or whatever, but it made a difference. 

[Annotation 9]

What were some of your, kind of like, strategic initiatives moving forward, even moving into the 70s, you know, changing into the new decade and kind of seeing what’s the– what’s the way forward, what’s the path for the city?

Well, certainly stabilization was a big part of it, in terms of opportunities and jobs. Trading information, sharing information, and following through in terms of, excuse me, making sure the job opportunities were available, encouraging people to invest in the city. You know, white flight was really a big, big thing. Part of it was the housing supply and people who were born and raised in New Brunswick moved to Florida moved to Tennessee moved to wherever and grandma was home with their house and, you know, rent it out to ten students and went to Florida and the checks come in and, in the meantime, property went down so, property maintenance, code enforcement, those were all critical issues in terms of keeping the breaks on decline. 

[Annotation 6]

40:15

Were there any kind of mechanisms in place to keep the racial conversations and relationships moving forward, the interracial conversations?

Well, I think it certainly helped that one of our commissioners was Black. A hero in the community. A basketball star. A wonderful, wonderful person. And he made sure, he kept us all honest. 

How so?

Well, he would be the one, or could be the one, on occasion, who would say, well, what about this, have you thought about how this was going to impact on that? Or how can we do more in this area? He was a stabilizing force. Influence, I guess, is a better word. 

And, do you feel that it was a dynamic that was able to keep the team moving forward or was able to be progressive, in a way for the entire community?

Oh, I think so. 

What’s the– you know, there are a couple of circumstances surrounding the creation of the school system in North Brunswick and kind of some of those other things that are part of the overall redlining, you know, equation. How did you see those things affect New Brunswick?

They affected them adversely. I mean, there was no need for that at the time. And the school situation was difficult and there were a lot of heavy forces pushing that school in North Brunswick, on the borderline of New Brunswick, thank you. And, the cost of money.

What was the result of that?

Well, I think we managed to dig in and hang on and did pretty well. It wasn’t easy. It took the work of a lot of people.

So, just for the record, so you were a member of the city government from what year until when?

’67, I guess to ’74. 

What was your transition out of that phase?

I went in with the state government. I was part of the Department of Community Affairs, part of Byrne’s cabinet. 

How did you connect to that work, like how did you connect to that work in with your ongoing relationship with the city? How did your work influence– How did your experiences influence?

Well, I would have almost completed two terms. It was over in December, I left in October, something like that. But I would not have run for a third term. I’m not quite into the term limits school of thought, but I’m rubbing right against it. And it was an opportunity, I felt to benefit New Brunswick as well as my own success. My livelihood, whatever you want to call it, to go to community affairs because Paula Vasaco was– Dickens was Governor, Paula Vasaco was the first commissioner, and it was clear that, the department of community affairs, in those days, was to provide a seat at the table for the mayors of the cities who were generally ignored and, uh, so I thought it was a step that would forward what I was interested in and benefit the city of New Brunswick along with others. Art Holland was the mayor of Trenton and he was a big help in that regard.

What was the kind of work that you were doing?

Protecting and promoting the interests of the cities. The needs of the cities. We had all sorts of professional development programs, both for incumbent city officials and also for those who were interested in city government. I thought it was a big plus and a good place to be.

45:26

Is there a way you, you know, kind of looking at the body of work of the community affairs, you know, how would you say that work, that department, that commission, has affected or impacted, either positively or negatively, cities in New Jersey?

Well, I think that influence has waned or disappeared and community affairs is much more of a policeman and an enforcer and not willing to dole out the goodies and the needs of the cities. I think it’s lost its way. Nobody has asked me that. 

What is the, you know, kind of the ongoing story of the cities in the United States is also an ongoing story about the racial tensions? The story through the 70s and 80s, would you say that there is anything that is shifting in that story or the dynamics? Either the conflicts or the [unintelligible] within that time frame?

I’m not sure I understand your question.

So, if we look at the decline in cities from the, you know, post, you know, World War II era into when cities start to have massive strategic planning strategies in the 80s and 90s, there is a lot of redlining that occurs so the cities are predominantly poorer folks who are living in the city–

I think there is a lot of good purpose gone awry, if you will. You think through things– what could be better than helping our veterans get a house? What could be better than having an effective highway program? Both of those issues slam banged the cities. Every which way. As a young newlywed, we could not get a mortgage on a house in New Brunswick, New Jersey because the housing stock was too old and the GI Bill would not mortgage those homes. So, what does that build? That builds the Kendall Parks of the world. At the expense of the cities. And the same way with the roads. What could be better than new and good roads? Except all of the roads left out of the cities. So, often we had very good purposes and helpful programs, but they lambasted the cities. Maybe inadvertently. 

I’m not one to say, but the fact remains that the GI Bill and the Housing Act and the road construction all served to lambast the cities. And I don’t think anyone sat down and said, “This is the way we can get the cities,” but that was the result.

[Annotation 7]

What was the path out of it, or what was the solution away from it?

Well, rethinking some of our notions wouldn’t hurt and, yeah, directing improvement funds to the benefit of the cities. Not taking it away. Whatever someone else has, whatever’s new coming down the pike, make sure the cities get a fair share. 

So, the redevelopment conversations in New Brunswick, really kind of, you know, and you can correct me if I’m wrong and you don’t approve of this, but really center around the decisions of Johnson and Johnson to stay in the city and that kind of creates a trajectory for the city.

Well, it was critical certainly. We would have been lost without it. But, uh, it wasn’t the only factor. I mean, the largest employers in the city of New Brunswick were not J&J. Nobody from J&J lived in New Brunswick. John Heldrich and I, I think were the two out of four people that lived in the city. But, uh, I lost my train of thought. Uh, the housing was one thing and employment was the other.

The two hospitals combined were the major employers. That’s what was key to the healthy city of New Brunswick. Squibb, J&J, the other corporations didn’t have the– we are supplying tenants who are inhabiting [unintelligible] and that affects housing, that affects education, that affects everything, if your population base isn’t stable. 

51:00

And, so, you know, there’s a lot of documentation and articles around when those conversations, the conversations around revitalization, that was a huge topic, that’s like a huge thing, but really in the– throughout the 80s, and there’s a lot of disagreement about what that means or what direction that means. How would you– is there a way that you have a recollection of how those conversations played out and how and to whose benefit they play out?

Well, I think you’re overreacting here. Things aren’t always the big picture. There’s a nine to five, today, tomorrow, to get through the next day and I think a lot of that plotting, if you will, is critical for a community to survive, and if we keep lopping off the key parts you have less and less to work with. Uh, age of the housing stock. Already talked about the GI Bill and how it hurt the cities. The age of the population of the cities. Grandpa was left there and son and daughter built North Brunswick. A lot of it was incremental and not malicious, but the way the world answers and I don’t think there was enough thought to that. There weren’t enough Paula Vasacos in the world to keep their hands moving in an effective way. 

So, what is the– you know, the cities are growing and changing in the 90s. What do you think are the most beneficial impacts of that period of growth?

Well, employment and housing are probably basic and key. If there are no jobs, there’s no adequate housing. No developments will prosper. I mean, one of the single most important and effective things, I think, for the well-being of a city, is code enforcement. You let things go on one block, then the next block, and people don’t want to live there, people on the corner are stuck. [Unintelligible] vitality for the city. 

[Annotation 8]

I kind of skipped over this a little bit, but how would you say the city’s relationship has been with public housing creation? Affordable housing is probably the better way to describe it.

Yeah. Because public housing was disaster. I mean, what could be better than a new house? What could be worse than having a seven story building with ninety percent of your residents thirteen years or younger? There’s no stability. So, public housing was a disaster, I think. Affordable housing sounds good, but I’m not always sure we know what that means. 

Is there a responsibility on behalf of the government structure or private developers or, you know, how does that dynamic work when you talk about providing, you know, understanding there’s no definition of affordable housing? What is that dynamic, not just for the economy, but whose responsibility is it? To take that into consideration.

Well, I think certainly the official family of the city or county or whatever we’re talking about. They have to play– gah, I still can’t get that out [laughter] has to play a role in that and the cities have to be a desirable place to work and live. Streams. I mean, not everybody wants to live in the country fifty yards from anybody else, but if you’re all squished in together, there has to be adequate safeguards, protection. And quality. As I say, public housing, eight or ten stories, no matter how nice it is or how well-built or whatever is not going to survive as an attractive place where people want to go if it’s ruled by a gang of sixteen-year-olds. Or thirteen-year-olds. Young mothers afraid to get on the elevator. Then it doesn’t matter because the elevator doesn’t work. They wrecked it. [Unintelligible] you can’t box people in and forget about them. 

56:48

Not to think ahead too much, but just thinking phonetically, like the book ends of social movements within the country as a whole, but then looking at New Brunswick, do you have, like, are there any reflections that you have between the summer of 1967 and the summer of 2020. You know, kind of thinking of those social movements as big, kind of, benchmarks in the social movement?

No. I don’t. I don’t even have the opportunity to think those kinds of thoughts anymore. But what I would say is that there’s gotta be perspective and there’s gotta be a rationale. You know, what do they say about– the high tide raises all boats? Whatever that cliché is, that you can’t just look on one section of the community. Focus only on downtown. Why not, because that’s where you get your name in the paper. You cut the ribbon. But what sorts of benefits from that development revolve around the whole community as opposed to the investors. And, uh, I think that’s important. Too many instances where the people who actually live in the city  [unintelligible] have no say and that does not provide a positive ambience for everybody. There are neighborhoods that you are afraid to walk in. There are neighborhoods that you don’t dare walk in. That can’t be. 

Do you have any perspective on the– do you have any perspective on the, like, the next generation, or the generation now that are wrestling with these conversations. I mean, it’s both about what is the place of the city within the country, and also what is the role of the racial and social justice movement in the country. Have you any experiences or any observations about what the younger generation is doing or what the goals are?

In truth, perspective probably not. But what I do see, and it is worth a chuckle in some crazy, crazy way, and people don’t feel that they need a two-car garage. And, in fact, people don’t feel that they have to have a car. And now, cities, while nobody was looking, [coughing] have come to be the place to be. You can get around and you don’t have to be soiling the environment, if you will. You can walk to work. They live and work and eat and dine [unintelligible] all in a close area. And, you know, nobody was looking and now cities are the place to be. It goes right along with my feeling that, yeah, cities are the place to be. Just proves that if you live long enough what goes around comes around, I guess. 

Is there anything that you expected I ask that I haven’t asked or any other questions or any questions that you might even have for us?

I think my time has passed. People aren’t asking me questions anymore. You’re unique in that regard and, you know, a lot came up in the anniversary if you will. And the contrast of what happened in Camden or Plainfield, you know, we come out pretty well when you make those comparisons. And so, that’s been a good feeling for me. But, I think that, uh, I think by and large I’m old news and on the shelf and that’s just fine. 

[Annotation 9]

What do you think the value is, though, in remembering? There was a significant moment, and taking that moment and considering what the summer of ’67 meant. I mean, a lot of those news articles were focused around that specific summer. Those few moments. What do you think? Is there an importance to remembering and going back and reinvesting in those?

Well, what’s the saying? If you forget, you’re doomed to live it over again? There’s some quaint adage in that regard. It’s important to remember because it gives you an opportunity to make things better or to build on what came out of that that was worthwhile. Or to dismiss something that clearly didn’t work. I mean, we don’t want ghettos. We don’t want Black fighting against white. We don’t want our children to be afraid. We want them to look forward and hope and so remembering helps foster all of that.

1:02:55

Is there any advice you would give to someone who is looking to get into public service now, in 2021?

Oh, I think the advice is the same. If you’re going into it for yourself, forget it. That’s not the way to proceed and not what we want to see in our public officials. The measure should not be how well or poorly it reflects upon you, but it has to have a sense, however trite that may be, a sense of service. I mean, you’ve really got to care about your constituency, whatever that happens to be. And some do and some don’t, and some succeed and some fail. I mean, I think public service is a noble profession, if you will, however trite that sounds. But it’s gotta be for others and not for yourself and I think too many times people think it’s the way to a fast buck or claim to fame and your thirty minutes in the sunshine and that doesn’t help anybody. Including yourself. It’s the same old story. Build everybody up. Or at least, be sure that no one’s forgotten, which is probably more true and doable.

Are there any particular– you literally just got done saying that it’s not about yourself and it’s about the greater good– but are there other particular things that you can point to that you say that I want to hold with me, that I’m particularly proud of, you know, something that I particularly want to remember? 

Oh yeah. Certainly, Vice President Humphrey’s visit to New Brunswick will forever remain a highlight. Can you imagine a kid growing up in Newark knows the vice president on a first name basis? Goes to the White House office of the Vice President? You can’t replicate that and you can’t underestimate how valuable and how proudful it reflects on you. So, that’s certainly a highlight. And to see our kids succeed. You know, the Rutgers basketball team. Unbelievable. Was that ’76? I mean, it was earthshaking, earthshaking. We never missed a home basketball game. If I wasn’t the mayor, I probably wouldn’t have been able to get tickets [John laughs], a little graft on the side, and there are many moments, little moments, where you just feel that you made a difference. And, I think that the other thing that awes me, really, is the involvement of clergy. I don't think you think about, when you’re first here, of what’s important but the, uh, the stabilization of the Black churches and the Catholic churches and the Synagogue on Shamic. I mean, they were involved and they made things different and better and they brought people together. I mean I held the first [unclear] service in the community just before Thanksgiving. And some of the nuns from St. Peters had never been in a temple before. Most of them had been in a temple or wherever else they came to be through somebody’s wedding or graduation or sad but true death, but the nuns had never been in it at all. They were looking for cracks in the ceiling, to be in this Jewish temple. And that was a very simple thing: a city wide, equanimical service for Thanksgiving. You know, that’s not genius work, but it was earth shaking, for so many individuals. 

1:08:10

Who else was present? I mean, I know you mentioned the Catholic nuns, but who else was there?

Everybody was there. The Hungarian churches. Again, back to the ethnic community that we were in. The Italian Church, the Polish church. The Protestant Churches, the Lutheran churches. I mean, just, everybody came. 

Mount Zion and–

Yeah. Mount Zion. That’s, which one is Mount Zion?

Mount Zion is the one that’s right over here, sorry I’m pointing in this direction, the one at the corner of Neilson Street and–

The Lutheran Church.

The Lutheran Church, I think that one’s up on Livingston Avenue.

Mount Zion doesn’t ring a bell with me. I can’t place it in my head. 

Yeah, so that’s great, the equanimical service. Were there, do you remember, any other specific stories of the clergy having a moment, or an influential moment or a positive impact?

Oh yeah. I mean, Reverend Hildebrand and Reverend Charlie Brown, two Black clergymen were right out on the streets with me, And that goes back to having a quasi-middle class if you will, but a solid community with a history in the community. There was, uh, Father, uh, terrible that I can’t remember his name. Anyway, the pastor at St. Peter's Church, which happened to be my church, they were out on the streets. They had never done that before, but they wanted it to work. They wanted it to work. Stability so that we could all move forward. Very, very helpful. Very influential. 

These are great. Thank you for these recollections.

It’s a little distorting. I can’t remember what I had for lunch yesterday, so you know that I’m bobbing and weaving here. 

Is there anything else that you want to–

Where are you going with this? What happens next, is what I need, what I want to know. 

Well, to tell you that I can actually stop the recording. 

1:11:24 (End of Recording)