Joe Mish has lived his entire life near the Raritan River. Throughout his life experiences, Joe’s interests and studies revolved around the biodiversity and importance of the wildlife of the River. For over fifteen years, he has written a column called “Along the South Branch” for Branchburg News. During the interview, Joe pulls from memories to contextualize the importance of the past, present, and future of the Raritan River.
“Nature’s like this incredible library that has [the] blueprint for anything that anybody is ever going to invent in the future, or, you know, from science, engineering– it’s all there.”
ANNOTATIONS
Annotations coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Dan Swern
New Brunswick, New Jersey
July 9, 2019
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
[00:00:00]
Ah, today is Tuesday, July 9th, 2019. It’s 2:30 pm. Ah, this is Dan Swern, interviewing–
Joe Mish. Joseph J. Mish.
Ah, for Raritan River Stories. And, uh, Joe, ah, thank you again for being with me today and sharing your story. Um. So, whenever you’re ready if you’d like to start from the beginning? Okay.
Yeah. Well I, I’ve always lived within sight of the, uh, the Raritan River. Uh, we lived on, ah, Jersey Avenue, which is the border between Hopelawn and Fords. And, uh, it was high up on the hill. They took half of that road for the parkway. Now it’s a deep valley– kinda hard to believe where all that soil went. But from that property, and from the– the upper windows you can see Raritan Bay. You can see the bridges and so forth. And, um, it’s hard to tell where your memories are, or– or, what– what your memories are that are prompted by photographs. So, uh, assuming the facts that my memories are based on [chuckles] photographs I look at, uh, the photographs from way back when, and I have pictures myself of my uncle’s boat in, uh, Crow’s Mill Creek in Shenning’s Boat Yard, which is now an asphalt company property right now. Uh. So. You know, I, as I look at those photos, I think I was maybe about 3 or 4 years old, and, uh, you know, there I am on his boat. I do remember, you know, it’s just up a tidal creek, it wasn’t a fancy dock or anything, it was just a mud bank tidal creek where he had his boat docked. And, uh. You know that’s– that’s– that and there’s a photograph that they took of me standing on the– the shore. In the background is the– the parkway bridge which was just being built, so it had to be, like, around ‘53, ‘54, something like that. And, uh, I’m standing on the shore line of, uh, where the ceramics company was. Which was just a little upstream from where Carborundum is now– in fact, Carborundum, uh, still has the sign up, if you go over the, uh, Parkway Bridge South? And you look upstream on the North shore? Uh, the one building still has the, uh, big letters “Carborundum.” So that’s, uh, that’s sort of a, uh, reference point if you will. That and what’s left of Crow’s Mill Creek. Uh. It was interesting, uh, a while back I was invited, uh, by No Water No Life to a– a company, Allison Jones, the founder and president, on a flight over Raritan Basin. Uh, included Heather Fennick as well. And, um, you know, to see the areas that I was familiar with from the ground, uh, on the air was really an eye opener. You know, it’s a totally different perspective in terms of, uh, proximity to, you know, locations and so forth. You know, on the ground it might take you half hour to get to the next way point if you will, but here in a plane, by the time you recognize where you are and you’re looking for the second way point, you’re already past it. So anyway, it just, it just gave a good, uh– You know, a good perspective that I never had before to– to view that area. The– the Raritan Arsenal, KSB and so forth. Um. [chuckle] I can’t discount a couple of my, uh, Golden Books, which were Scuppers the Sailor Dog and, uh. [laughs] Um. What was it, Scuffy the Tugboat. Uh, both of ‘em– Apparently, subliminally, uh, played some sort of, uh, um, infamous in my life to be attracted to the river, to water and so forth. Uh, Scuffy was about a, uh, little toy tugboat that was lost in the Uplands in a little tiny stream in a pasture. And, uh, that eventually led to the sea. And that concept has always been with me.
[Editor’s Note: Little Golden Books is a children’s book series that was popular in the 40’s. It includes titles such as Scuffy the Tugboat and The Sailor Dog.]
When we, uh, when we moved upstream [chuckle] as I like to say from Fords to, uh, Keasbey, uh, I had in my mind, “I have to get up one of these days and paddle from the Shantic down to Perth Amboy or to Keasbey.” And, uh, one morning I did! I just woke up, there was [laughs] no preparation, you know. No nothin’, you know, no cooler, no nothin’, just grabbed a canoe, walked down the river, put it in the water and, end up at, uh, under the parkway bridge over there. Uh. So that was kind of a fulfillment of that, uh, that– that concept of– of– of traveling from the uplands to the sea. And that’s just never left me. Um. And, you know, Scuffy the Tugboat– I had a couple of uncles who were in the Navy and, uh, you know, there’s– there’s always boats. My mother had five brothers and they were all into fishing and boating and so forth. So that’s– that’s a side of the family that I– I kind of attracted to. Um, growin’ up, when, well, when we moved, when we lived in For– Again, we lived on Jersey Avenue, and then the house was moved when the parkway came. Uh. They moved the house. My grandparents decided it was better to move the house than to build it, whatever. So they moved it about a mile down the road to Lillian Street. And Lillian Street was a dead end street. It ended on the Lehigh Valley Railroad Tracks. There was a little actual valley there. And, uh, the end of the street began Keasbey. And that, uh, that was the, uh, beginning of all of the clay pits. So, uh, clay was mined in that area. My grandfather had worked in, uh, the brickyards for a while way back when. And they used the saltay to pack it so they– they manufactured bricks and terracotta and then they, you know, sent it out. So I was constantly in the clay banks exploring. Um. You know, I got into hunting and trapping. Um. Uh, trapping muskrats primarily. And, uh, actually paid for one semester of college trapping muskrats. Back then, when college was [laughs] affordable, and– and muskrats were plentiful. Um. So I– I– I missed the whole sex, drugs, and rock and roll thing because I was down in the clay banks. And, uh, then growing up in the Boy Scouts there were a few leaders that were, um. Um. Significant role models in my life. Um. Uh. Who was it– James Nestle. And, um, I guess it was George Fife. Um. Mr. Nestle and his wife, uh, Lois, were, uh, avid bird watchers. And, uh, they got me into noticing the birds. Um. [clears throat] Back then, I was always involved in– Pet turtles and snacks and whatever we had. So, um, my uncle worked in the Raritan Arsenal, as did most of the people who lived in that area in the– in the Fords area. And, you know, the Arsenal, the Raritan Arsenal was a huge employer. And, uh, my uncle was uh, doing some security work and he found an owl, in one of the towers that– that were in the Raritan Arsenal along the river near Crab Island. And he brought it back to me and, uh, I had it flyin’ around in the cellar, feeding it and so forth. And, uh, it died. And, uh, I contacted my– my mentor, Mr. Nestle, and I told him I had an oriole owl. And, uh, [laughs] he said, “Ahh, it’s probably a [inaudible],” and I, “No, no, no, it’s a, it’s an oriole owl!” And, uh, he came over and looked at it, and now he was, he was uncertain as to what it was. So he took it to the, uh, well I went with him, we went and met, uh, Irving Black who was a curator at the, uh, Newark Museum. And, uh, he took a look at it and he was, uh, befuddled. And they contacted a number of, uh, ornithology experts and so forth and finally concluded it was an oriole owl. So that experience of, uh, going against the [laughs] authority, if you will, or going against the, you know, common beliefs, that was another thing that I– I kind picked up and kept with me. You know? Throughout– throughout my– my life over here.
[00:08:52]
And then I was credited [laughing] with the Southernmost Sighting of the oriole owl in the United States. And wouldn’t you know it, like a bunch of years ago, somebody sends me something that, uh, the Audubon Society put out commemorating the, [chuckle] the 15th anniversary of the discovery of that owl in New Jersey. So that was, again, along the Raritan. And, um. [tsk] I even did a Henry Rutgers Project while I was at the College of Agriculture and Environmental Science, now called Cook, now called God knows what. Where I was, I was doin’ muskrat populations. And, uh, study of muskrat populations. So, with the– with the– with the trapping and with the hunting and so forth you began to look at not just the game animals that you were after but, but everything else– the– the you know entire environment, tire– entire community of life that existed there. And, uh, you know in later years, lookin’ back at it would come to realize how significant that area is, that north shore, you know, from lo– you know, what’s left of Perth Amboy, Keasbey, on up to Edison and, uh, um, up to Highland Park. But especially the, uh, the tide water around Crab Island. Um. It’s an area where the– the soil types converge, where you have the, uh, the ocean had come up and at one time, prehistoric ocean, Pangea and so forth where the– the ocean had covered most of South Jersey. And you have the clay deposits and the sand and so forth, and then you have the, pretty much you run into the New Brunswick Shale, and then I’m not familiar with the other types of shale but that’s pretty much where the sand and the clay end. So whenever you have an interface of, uh, you know any, any, uh, variability like that, you know, whether it’s like vegetation or so forth with that soil, it– it– it generates a cascade of life, a cascade of– of– of plant life, and of following insect life, of bird life. You know, whatever you have there. So it’s a very unique area that contains characteristics of South Jersey and North Jersey. And uh, you know, lookin’ back there were black ducks which were, are not well, threatened, endangered– I– I don’t know if– if that’s the appropriate classification but they’re on the way down. Their– their population was on the way down. And that’s all you ever saw back then, was black ducks. You never saw a mallard. You never saw a goose. And it was pretty rare to even see a crow. And, [laughs] and– and those birds pretty much now dominate that area. Uh, there’s also a short-eared owls. You know, I have photographic evidence of– of it and stuff. Um. Grey fox, which you never see up here, you see predominantly red fox. Um. There were spotted turtles. Um. [Unclear], again, something that you might see in a Foresight Preserve in, uh, deep South Jersey, Egg Harbor, by Atlantic City.
[00:12:03]
Um. And the Raritan is actually on a– a, it’s a– it’s a– it’s a major exit on the Atlantic FlyWay- the Atlantic Flyway, the Mississippi Flyway. These are major migration routes for all kinds of birds, you know, from your waterfowl to, uh, your, um, songbirds and, uh, even, um, you know, monarch butterflies. You know, hummingbirds. So you’re comin’ up the Atlantic Flyway, and you bear to the left, and you go right up the Raritan River– I mean it’s a major exit. So all along that river, God knows what you might see from day to day. Uh. I also remember seeing American Bitterns? Which, um, you know I follow Facebook, a lot of different photographers, wildlife photographers, and I see all these ospreys and eagles and whatnot. And I don’t see any pictures of bitterns. Somebody posted a bittern the other day and I– I [laughing] got all excited, it’s like, “Oh my God! A bittern!” I don’t know whether it’s subject matter or they just don’t see the bitterns. But, um, again, that– You know, putting all that together, you know, I’ve come to realize that that is such a unique area in New Jersey. And it’s a deserving of some attention which is now happening with the Rutgers Raritan River symposium and, uh, Heather Fennick’s Lower Raritan River, um, partnership. So, uh, things are happening right now. I took a– a trip with, uh, Heather last week to the old stomping grounds. Uh, I lived maybe about, uh, three miles from, uh, the border of Edison– you couldn’t hunt in Woodbridge Township but you could hunt in– in Edison Township. So I would walk the three miles to the clay banks and the weeds and the woods and the muck and the swamps and stuff down to the river. And, uh, on the way down there was a pond over there, um, that we used to go to as kids. Fishin’. And great fishin’ over there, the spotted turtles. And, um, it was on industrial highway, there was H.R. Grace, or H.W. Grace? I guess it’s H.R. Grace. Um. There, whatever they made, they made these big plastic, you know, melted plastic all over the– the clay banks over there in that area. The stream that ran through there, um, ran kind of a yellow and it was a– had an acrid odor to it. It– it was almost like, uh, uh, Clorox flowing down that stream over there, and you never really saw any animal tracks there, except a few rat tracks. You know, brown rat. And then there was, uh, a Hayden Chemical on the left. Uh, which employed a lot of local people. And, uh, just a little bit further down, uh, maybe about a– a two mile stretch at most, was the, uh, Hatco Company. And, uh, uh, there was a road that went down to the river next to Hatco. And on the right there was a pond and then a stream ran down, and I think it’s called “Black Ditch” now on the maps. And that area in between was, uh, dredgings. At one point, I– I– I don’t have the time frame on this, but the river was dredged and all of the dredgings were placed on this one area on the flats.
[Editor’s Note: Clorox is a bleach manufacturer that creates cleaning chemicals.]
[00:15:28]
And, uh, then there was the Raritan Arsenal. And tha– back then, I think they closed in like ‘63, ‘64, ‘65. They were consolidating a lot of the military, uh, installations. And the Raritan Arsenal was one of the first to close. Uh, so it was guarded by, um, you know, army security. And, uh, I used to sneak in there and, uh, trap. They had a lot of, uh, ditches and canals and so forth. And, uh, I would sneak in there at night, walk down there at midnight. Back then your parents [laughs], you know, it’s like, whatever! [laughing] They didn’t really care. Um. So I– I’d walk in there and set traps and then go home and then come back first light, check the traps again, you know for– for the muskrats. And a– there were some areas in there that were cordoned off that were maybe, oh, fifty yards by twenty-five yards, and so within the Raritan Arsenal there are areas that my father had told me they had buried a lot of chemicals in there. Phosgene, you know, which is used, uh, during World War 1. Uh. Poison gas, essentially. And, uh. [clears throat] So I’d stay out of those areas. You know. So there was some limitation, you know? [laughs] You listened to the advice. Um. And, uh, the Raritan Arsenal, they buried all kinds of– Any kind of, uh, war materials? Uh, you know, from, you know, the talk was 45s, and cosmoline. 45, uh, you know, pistols. And cosmoline, which was a wrapper that they would wrap all the guns in for storage. Uh, all kinds of munitions– in fact, at Middlesex County College they still come up with, uh, some explosives every once in a while. They’re diggin’ around ‘n say, “Oh my God! We found these explosives!” Well, pffffh! The whole town knew about it! [snort] Wah, yeah, the Raritan Arsenal over there. And, ah, the way that Raritan Arsenal, even though it was a lot of God-knows-what pollution goin’ on, uh, that had preserved that area. Uh, you know. To where it could theoretically be salvaged today. So when I took the ride with Heather, we went to this area. We went to the pond. I wanted to show her, walk around, look at some of the plants that I remember– off the top of my head I remember there was a kalmia latifolia which was, uh, sheep ked. Which is a– a low-growing plant that’s found in South Jersey. And, uh, there were some, uh, weird oaks over there, I– I don’t remember the identity of that. And, uh, I was hopin’ to see the spotted turtle. I write a column called “Along the South Branch” for the Branchburg News and it’s been running for about fifteen years now. So I– I take all these, all the photos that I take are primarily, uh, along the South Branch, North Branch, or the Raritan River, and post them. I’m trying to, uh, uh, to dispel the myth that New Jersey is sanitized of nature.
[00:18:38]
So, took Heather down there and the first place we stop was at that pond by Grace Chemical Company, and there was actually a remediation company over there doing work, which they floored me! It’s like a remediation company? So I know that Woodridge Township was involved in, you know, some effort to, uh, create a nature preserve– I don’t know to what extent or how extensive it would be but. I was happy to see that, in a way. Um, and then we, you know, Burma Road which was a gravel dirt road, a single dirt road. And, uh, I guess then, you know, post-World War II, you know, you saw a rough road like that and everybody know– knew it was Burma Road. Um. Harkening back to Burma and the Burma Road. Um. So it was tough to get bearings over there because most of the, well, Hay– Hayden and Hatco are gone. There is a, uh, a plant over there– Heather was telling me that, uh, uses garbage to generate power? And, uh, it was one of the terms that we could make to the left. And when we turned over there to the left to see what we could see, see how far we could go, um. I recognize that pond as the pond where I was doing muskrat study at– at Rutgers way back when. And it was now bisected by a road. And just as we pulled up, there was a cormorant who had grabbed rather a large catfish. And, uh, I got some photos of that and the cormorant was jugglin’ it around and those catfish has those big spines and the dorsal fin, the pectoral fins, and, uh, [laugh] I guess if you’re a cormorant and you swallow it the wrong way you’re, [laughs] you’re in trouble. So it’s jugglin’ it and [laughs] while this cormorant was playin’ with the catfish, here comes an osprey swooping down. And, uh, I got a couple of really good pictures of that osprey too. So that was– I was thrilled, you know, to see that. Um. I was expecting to see a spotted turtle but all I saw were painted turtles. So we backed out of there, went down the road a little bit further. Then we took another, next left, the only left that you could take. I think it took us to, like, a FedEx building, or a UPS, whatever was over there. Then there was, like, a little side gate that, uh, had some signs on it about, you know, “Closed” and this and that. Didn’t sound like it was a real public access. But we figured, “What the heck?” So, [laughs] that’s a lot of what happens down there. So, uh, we went down the road and sure enough it was the road that I remember, um, that went along Hatco where the pond began. And, uh, recognized where the dredgings were– were dumped. And, uh, so we went down, went down to the river and, uh, you know eventually dead ended over there. But there were some recognizable features in terms of the, uh, remains of the old Raritan Arsenal Dock. In fact, I have a picture from the 70’s, early 70’s, they had taken one winter and, uh, I think it was the outlet of Red Root Creek. And that the– the– the wrecked dock is over there, so. I’ve been looking at that picture compared to some of the photographs that I took when I was with Heather to see if I could recognize the exact spot where I stood when I took that picture. But that, uh, you know, the remains of the dock is, is, uh, you know, dominant. And, uh, it’s changed very little. You know, big pilings in there. Um, my dad told me that they used teakwood on a lot of the dock. And so teakwood, you know, withstands the weather and– and s– and so forth.
[00:22:30]
Um. Uh, so it was, it was neat to see, and we saw that there were some remediation g– going on over there that Heather knew about. In fact there was one area that was, uh, many acres in size that was just covered with Black-eyed Susans. I mean it was, it– it was [laughs] beautiful. You know, something beautiful to see. Um, so something’s going on there. I don’t know what. Uh, to what extent or if it’s based off money or, you know. What– what’s going on there. Um, I’ve been talkin’ to Heather about some of the projects that have been happening over there. And uh, you know, she was interested in seeing, uh, a ground view of what, you know, she pretty much sees on maps and so forth. So, uh, it was an eye opener. It was kind of like goin’ back home in a way, to see what was there. While we were there, you know, we looked up some of the creeks and there were egberts fishing, um, which brought back a memory way back when, uh, in one of the creeks there was an egbert fishing. And he was fishing around an old television set. [laughs] I wish I had that picture. Um, and then there’s Crab Island. And, uh, Crab Island was a uh– A little sliver of land right off the– the Raritan Arsenal. And there was a, uh, a dry dock, there was a dry dock company, I guess it was in Perth Amboy. And the dry dock was towed in between, uh, Staten Island and the, uh, Raritan Arsenal. And, uh, dry dock is what they, uh, they would sink and a ship would sail onto it, and then they would pump the– the tanks and the uh, uh, dry dock would rise with the ship and then they could, uh, you know, support the ship and– and– and do whatever repairs they needed to do. And this dry dock had to be about, oh, at least five stories high. It was huge. And I remember, um, climbin’ on it. You had to go out, you know, we were mostly in a canoe. And, um, go out and climb on the dry docks and so forth. It was a, real spooky. It was like bein’ on a ghost ship. You heard all of the creaking timbers and, theoretically there was nobody there. I hope. And as you’re climbin’ past all these dark passages, and it was a flat platform with these vertical sides with a slight curve to them at the bottom. And, uh, what remains, [laugh] what I was interested when we did the flyover was the first thing I wanted to see was what’s left of the dry docks, and sure enough the dry dock was there. But only the flat platform. Whatever happened to the vertical just– Disappeared. But, uh, yeah, those– those dry docks– dry dock was really something. That’s another thing that stuck in my memory. Um, I did a, uh, an article about a friend of mine, uh, Jim Sergio, who, uh, was, uh, buggin’ me to take a trip in a canoe from my house in the Shantic back down to the river, you know, I had been regaling him with tales of, you know, my first trip, my first solo trip. And, uh, so finally one day, uh, “Okay, we’ll do it.” And, uh, actually, what we did was we started from, uh, Clinton. Main Stream in Clinton. And, uh, [laughs] again, it wasn’t like, you know, one of these, “Okay, let’s check the list to see if we have wha- everything that we–” No, it’s just like two guys and a canoe and, good to go! So we head off from Main Stream Clinton, and I kept the log, and I still have that log! [laugh] And I– I posted the pictures of that log in the article, “Jimmy Rides Again”. And, uh, you know, it tells the story of a, you know, how we, um, made our sojourn down the south branch of the Raritan River onto the main branch, down into Keasbey. And, uh, under the parkway bridge there was some bar called “Billy Vax Loot Bin”.
[00:26:47]
And, [laugh], Billy, Billy Vax was the brother of the, uh, head of the iron workers union in Perth Amboy. I had some uncles that worked in there. I even took the iron worker’s test way back when and passed it. Um. And, uh, Billy had, uh, he blew his arm off in a hunting accident. And, uh, he was robbed a couple’a times. So. You went in there and there was no air conditioning, there was nothing on tap. And you just sat there, he never brought you anything. [laugh] But it was a serious, like an old man’s bar. They made the money because they’re buildin’ the bridges and at lunchtime the workers would come over to the tavern, you know, it was the only, you know, real tavern around at that time. And, uh, Billy kept a shotgun behind the bar, and he had a, an attack German Shepherd. [laughs] And, uh, you know, the type of place that you went to drink. You didn’t go to listen to music, you didn’t go to do anything, you went, sat there, and you leaned over your brewski at the bar like a hawk over a squirrel. Uh, [laughs] it was just the, you know, old man’s bar. So anyway, when Jimmy and I got down to Keasbey, uh, I left him with the boat. It was actually the Keasbey Outport Motor Club had a boat ramp there. And there’re a couple’a people around. So I walked up to Billy Vax, which is maybe 350 paces or so. You know. Dialed my brother’n’law. My brother’n’law came with his truck. Put the canoe in the truck. Took it over to my parent’s house in Forts there. I have pictures, you know, of the old thing. “Jimmy Rides Again.” Um, Jimmy unfortunately passed away at about 30 years old. So, uh, it’s kind of a fond memory for me. Uh. [pause] Yeah. Harkening back to high school days. It had to be just before probably, you know, we all got our licenses so. Probably 16, 17 maybe. And, uh, high school was closed for somethin’ to do with the weather. So, uh, my buddy, um, Bob Sarsowski and I decide that we’re gonna go, uh, hunting for diver ducks in Amboy Bay. So, in January, it’s like below freezing, the wind is blowing pretty hard. And we had this modified duck boat and you had to row it. And he got his father’s decoys and my father drove us down there. I guess [laughs] he thought it was a good idea too or whatever, sending the kids out into the gail in January with a little boat. Yeah. Good idea! Have fun! [laughs] So we loaded up the boat, um, and the Barnigan's Snake Box has got a low, uh, bow on it. And they usually have, uh, a spray cover. We didn’t have the spray cover. And the– the wind wasn’t too bad when we sat down, and, uh, fortunately my father stayed. You know, he parked over to watch us, to see us hunt ducks. And, uh, [laughs] all of a sudden the– the– the wind just came up, the waves came up, and the– the– the water started to freeze on the boat.
[00:30:05]
And, uh, it started to get bow heavy. And I said, “Let’s get the hell out of here!” And, uh, my brother-in-law– well, he’s my brother-in-law now, he said to me, “No, no! We can’t go! We have to get the decoys! My father’s gonna kill me if we don’t get the decoys!” [laughs] So we– we grabbed a few of the decoys– we might have missed one. But the water was, like, comin’ over the bow of the boat and we were a good quarter mile off the Amboy Beach. So, uh, turned around and started headin’ into the beach, and somebody had called the coast guard, but we had made it to the beach so, you know. Th– the tragedy averted! [laughs] Um, it– it– interesting in– in, uh, Raritan Bay off of the Raritan Yacht Club in Perth Amboy, back then in the late ‘60’s, early ‘70’s, they had the largest concentration of diver ducks in the– in the east coast. It was ska, um, buffleheads, golden eyes, red heads. Some canvas-backs. Um, and, uh, you know, so the– so the bay was a– a prime duck hunting spot. Um, so, you know, we did that quite a bit. We have some pictures, you know. Ducks and two little kids with shotguns. [laughs] You know, you don’t see that these days. Uh. [clears throats]. So that was, uh– Forgot what I was gonna say. Nah, there’s another topic I was gonna jump to about Amboy Bay– well, right now, you know, I’d go out with my brother-in-law, same guy, and, uh, he’s a consonant fisherman. He’s got his boat over at Lochwood’s Marina in Cheesequake Creek. And he fishes Raritan Bay, Sandy Hook, all over. And the last two times we went out, went out for stripers. And we went past Perth Amboy and we’re nailin’ stripers, big stripers right off Perth Amboy. There were, uh, um– Menhaden, also called “bunkers”. And, uh, there’s another name for it that I don’t recall. But they’re, uh, ale-wives. They’re, uh– [pause] I guess like a sardine family. And, uh, ya know, maybe about ten inches long, twelve inches long. And the bay was just filled with this and the stripers and the osprey and the eagles. Everybody feeds on these things. You look at the– the– the depth finder over there and you see these maaaaaassive fish. The massive bunker. So we’re trolling and, uh, you know, in like a couple of hours we boated like twelve, eleven, we’ll go. But it’s just incredible. And, again. Harkening back to the early days, uh, one of my uncles from my mother’s side never had any kids. And he would always pick me up and take me down to Perth Amboy to the boat basin.
[00:33:08]
And we’d sit there and, uh, you know. Glass the boats. It was first use of binoculars. So we’d look at, you know, what’s going on on the boats, what’s Staten Island and so forth. Walk around on the docks of the Basin. Um, and back then, you’d had these huge die offs of bunkers. And, uh, even today it’s like speculation what killed them, whether it was pollution or– You know, whatever. But just masses, sa– the same fish that we’re seein’ today, you know, in a thriving situation, used to come floating down the river in huge masses. You know it’s another, you know. Today and– lookin’ at, you know, yesterday to see what was there. What was there yesterday. So there’s a lot of changes down there. There’s wild turkey down there. And my god, I would have never moved if– if, you know, all of those critters had been down there [chuckle] when I lived down there. Yeah. I– I, you know, first trip down to Keasbey with a digital camera by the UPS place– I got beautiful picture of a fanned out male turkey. It’s like a turkey? In Keasbey? I was lucky to find a squirrel! [laugh] You know, or a rabbit, maybe! Interesting, there were some, um, there were some populations of pheasants. You know, pheasants are introduced and– If you see a pheasant now it’s probably from a gun club that stocked pheasants. Dumb pheasants walkin’ along eatin’ gravel off the side of the road. You know, um. But back then there was a– a thriving population of pheasants in that dredged area. You know, along with a, you’d walk along and jump ducks, you know, shoot ducks. Um, but yeah that– that– that thought just came back about the pheasants that were down there. And I guess that’s, you know. The fox took the pheasants, the owls took the pheasants. You know? So. Things have changed, but still that area remains– the potential for that area to be a, you know, a major nature destination in New Jersey is so great. And that’s one of the things in– in my writing that I’ve noticed that, uh, the state, in a way, when they publish these, uh– nature destinations, it’s like, oh, “Go to the Fords Site, go to Cape May, go to here, go to there”– Uh. They’re also implying that there’s nothing in between. There’s no nature in between. And, uh, that’s– that’s something that they need to, uh, they need to fix. It’s like, sure, you know, um, publicize the nature destinations, but don’t neglect everything that exists in between. Uh, you know, that’s where the reputation that New Jersey residents have as well as out of state residents– that New Jersey is sanitized of nature. There’s nothing that exists. And yet, you know, we have this incredible– You know, uh, community of wildlife that existed long before the cows. You know, when I write my articles, there was one land planner that had talked about well, you know, the cows are gone. You know, you’re just responding to somebody who was concerned about the, you know, their building. Well he says, “Well the cows were gone.” Meaning that there’s nothing to save. But yet we have mink, muskrat, beever, existing in viable populations. But people have no clue that these animals are around!
[00:36:56]
Like, uh, you know. Yellowstone, one of the national parks out west. You might never go to see it, but it kinda makes you feel good, that it’s there. You know? It’s the same thing. So, okay. I’m just trying to raise awareness. I’m not trying to convert anybody, uh, you know, I’m just saying, “Hey! Don’t you know that, uh, right in that lab over there where they came up with rogaine, Johnson and Johnson right out on 22 there’s a little stream over there with mink runnin’ around not more than a hundred yards from where they developed rogaine. Yeah it’s– it’s– it’s– it’s that type of– of thing. I– I try to work the interface between science and art more or less. Uh, and to set out little seeds of, uh, of– that– that generate curiosity. That, uh, that– that people will maybe pick up and feel that gravitational pull, bringing them into deeper knowledge for whatever area. You know, and nature, it’s like, lotsa times people just think I talk about rabbits and squirrels and muskrats and stuff like that but it’s really deeper than that. It’s an appreciation for nature. Nature’s like this incredible library that has the, uh, the– the blueprint for anything that anybody is ever going to invent in the future, or, you know, from science, engineering– it’s all there. You know? I mean, if you look at this, they’re basics. The basics are there. You know, for any new technology that doesn’t even yet exist? It’s there! So. You know, while I talk about, you know, show pictures of eagles and this that and the other, you know, I– I also try to bring this in, you know? Like if there’s one person out there that’s curious about something that I put in the article, and they go to the libr– oh, go to the library, excuse me, they might as well go to Encyclopedia Britanica [laughs]. They go to their device! [laugh] Call it up and, uh, you know. Then, who knows where it might take them. You know, it’s like Scuffy the Tugboat! You know, you don’t know where it’s gonna take you. And it’s– it’s so varied, it’s not just, you know, you can now become a wildlife biologist or a game warden or something like that. But, you know, once you begin to study insects it’s like, oh my God! From an engineering perspective, from a chemical perspective? I mean, it could take you to anywhere! Uh, and again, it’s like, it seems like I’m goin’ off on a tangent, but really when you begin to get involved, you know, in the natural community and the– the– the river and the communities and so forth, it, uh– It makes you realize that, uh, humans. Humans, pfft. Our education system, uh, specializes, you know, everything’s a specialty. You have a PhD in some esoteric discipline.
[00:40:10]
And this is the way that we figured out we could learn complex things. Is to look at a– a string and to put a microscope on that string and become experts in that string. And what– what I get the feel that’s startin’ to happen now, at least on a small scale– this they talk about at the Rutgers Symposium– is not that there’s a need to bring all of these pieces, all of these disciplines together to understand what it is that we’re talking about. You know? We’re talkin’ about a whole, a community, and that got lost in the way that we teach. And, uh, I was quite excited actually about– there’s one professor, can’t recall his name, that was talkin’, and the– he was kinda on the same path that I was where they were talkin’ about involving the arts into the, into the Raritan River. You know, drawing a– paintings, pictures, music, you know. Based on that– that Raritan River. Again, this is where I’m comin’ from. There’s a– an inspiration that you get that’s available, you know, when you– when you begin to explore the– the– the river community. You know, which encompasses everything. Again, it’s like you go to study the river and it’s like you wouldn’t think of art. You know. Or– or paintings or inspiration or artists from– from the River. So this– this is something that the– makes me happy. You know, to– to see this, uh, you know, uh, quest for the whole come together. You know, you just, you look at just a little piece and you’re an expert in that but you have no idea how it fits or how it relates to anything else. [long pause] [clears throat] [long pause] You want to prompt me? [laughs]
[00:42:19]
Um– What brought you– Back? To the river, um, after going through college–
[overlapping] I never left!
And [inaudible overlapping]
You know, because, again, during college I was over there doing muskrat population studies [papers shuffling] in the ponds and the clay banks. Um. Uh. It was interesting at– at Rutgers, um, the only thing I ever wanted to be from the earliest time was a veterinarian. And, um, when I went to, um, to, to Cook or, the College of Agriculture, CAES as we called it, um, I was like a lost soul. I had no idea, I came here, failed out, you know, after the first year. And, you know, Roger La Costro [clears throat] who kind of saved my life, um, you know, mentored me. He was the director of admissions at the time. He went on to get his masters and PhD at Rutgers and was teaching ecology courses and taking people to Alaska, Puerto Rico, Newfoundland, Hawaii, all over the place. And, uh. [tsk] I guess in a way things work out even though I– I never got to become a veterinarian, I had enough diversity, uh, that helps me today. You know. From, uh, animal sciences course, to endrology, to wildlife biology, to public health. Um, entomology. You know, food science. So. [laughs] You know, it’s like God laughs at you when you have a plan. You know, “You want be a veterinarian? No! No! We’ve got other plan for you. But we’re not gonna tell you what they are!” So this knowledge that I acquired at Rutgers was a good basis, you know. I– I know what questions to ask. And, uh, you know, I don’t know a damn thing about programming but I could tell a programmer what a programmer can do and what a programmer can’t do. Um. [clears throat] You begin to understand, you go to the doctor and you may not know what the doctor is sayin’ but you know how to approach that doctor. How to get him to talk, how to get him to explain himself. To get him to think ‘bout what he’s saying. Um, you know, in a way, uh, knowledge is like fool’s gold. Because you become so confident in your knowledge and your vast experience that you look at something and right away you categorize it instead of looking at that individual situation or person. And, uh, you can go wrong. So it’s– it’s like, it gives you overconfidence. So you have to keep everything in balance, like in karate or pulling a canoe. There’s a center of balance, a chi that you have to maintain when you look at things. You know, even with your, you know, mat– uh, expensive, uh– uh, experience and– and– and knowledge.
[00:45:30]
It’s still, you’re still learning! You know, it’s not over. Look at that individual, you know. So again, it’s all, it’s– it’s the inspiration that evolves, you know, for me, actually, you know. From the– from the, you know, being involved with the– the river. You know, being so close to the river and the– the wildlife community and so forth. So yeah, all of that, uh, all that they had at Rutgers and all of the practical experience that I have, you know, with the muskrats and the hunting and the trapping. Uh, you could theoretically study that. But if you begin to live it, you begin to, you know, see, what, you know, what a muskrat thinks so to speak. [laughs] You know. What the muskrat eats. And then it’s like okay, the muskrat’s eating these plants and these clams but what about these clams and these plants. And you keep going out, outward. Um, and the one thing you learn as a trapper was leave no trace. You didn’t want your traps stolen by somebody else. And you didn’t want to disturb the environment. So you– you took pains not to leave any, any tracks or, you know, look like any people were there. So that, I, again, serves well. You know, when you’re talking about the environment these days and the bag opening up different preserves and so forth for people. You know, as people go out into the woods, they don’t want to see garbage. You know, you don’t want to see rudder trails that, that you don’t own. They cause erosion and stuff like that. That leave no trace is another– another thing that they, you– you pick up from a practical standpoint. Um. There’s a lot of, um– A lot of weather conditions and so forth. Uh. [clears throat] It’s– it’s– it’s almost as if, you know, even under the harshest conditions, you know, outdoors. If you think about it and you kind of let it, like, pass through you in a very meditative, uh, concept– You know, to let things pass through, whether it’s like frustration, anger, so forth– You just kind of take a deep breath and– and let it pass through.
[00:48:00]
And, uh, you know, without– without giving it any resistance. Um. [sigh] [pause] I don’t want to go too far into the– the– I do meditation once a week. I don’t want to get too far in that direction. But, um– You– you begin to– To– to feel! The environment. You begin to appreciate that harsh weather, realizing that probably in the universe, no one knows what happens or what’s really out there and, and– What you’re experiencing is unique to this time on Earth. You know, that rain, that feeling of coolness, the scent of the woods and so forth. Where else are you ever gonna get that in the entire universe, you know? So, you begin to appreciate those unique experiences just as something as a– as a– as a traveler on Earth, if you will. Um. But yeah, for– for the articles that I write, I’m just hoping to inspire somebody, and I’m not trying to get them to go and, you know, some tree hugger direction or anything like that. But I just want them to be inspired by nature. By the river. And, uh, you know. Set them off. I mean. You know, you get these kids– there’s a formative age, and a lot of times if you pat the kid on the heads like you’re trainin’ a dog, you know, that take that up as, “Oh, okay. That person I respect is a– gives me a reward,” uh, “an emotional reward because I,” you know, “I spoke a sentence in French.” So. Kid goes on, you know, studies French or something. The translation, masters the French translation, I don’t know. Um. But it’s– it’s that type of, uh– of– nurturing, I guess you’d call it, that I try to promote in a lot of my articles. Uh, I’m also involved in the, uh, eagle banding at one of the nests on the South Branch. So for five years I’ve been there, each of the five years that the eagles have building a nest in that spot. And, uh, again, to see an eagle on the South Branch is like, “What!” The first time I saw an eagle I was– I was paddlin’ down and there’s this big huge bird sittin’ on a dead branch and I was driftin’ right underneath him and I was takin’ pictures. And, uh, I wasn’t inspecting an eagle [inaudible] and I figure, “Aw geez, that must be some kind of a hawk. But he’s letting me get close so I’ll take a bunch of pictures.” And I took a bunch of pictures and when I start to look at the pictures and I realized I was lookin’ at an eagle! It’s like, are you kiddin’ me?! And it was in that spot that a few years later that the first eagle nest in that area was built. Um. So I was there for the first eagle! [laughs] It was incredible. So now when I talk about the eagles, there’s– eagles are– I wouldn’t say they’re ubiquitous, but they are quite prevalent in the area and some winters you get this convocation of eagles. And, uh, you could see five in one glance. Next year, nobody’s there. But! There are enough eagles that people don’t realize they’re seeing eagles. And this, this is another kind of a, you know, story unto itself, where you’re not lookin’ at the details. It’s like, you have to keep everything in balance, you have to keep the big picture and you have to look at the details as well. It’s not just one is better than the other. It’s like, it’s– You require both. So I tell people that, “you’ve probably seen eagles, but that for the first three years, they start to roam around.” You know, “They start to get their white maybe the third, fourth year and they’re not really mature adults until the fifth year.” And, uh, so it’s a– you could be seeing an eagle. Um, and, uh, you know, people are amazed at that. [police siren in the background] Eagles live, you know, like, when you talk about the, uh, the lifespan of any kind of wildlife. It’s, uh, it’s usually based on one anecdote, situation. And, uh, so eagles theoretically live about thirty years. So when I write the articles about the eagle banding each year, I talk about the, uh, possibility that your children’s children might be seeing this particular eagle. Because they put the– the– the band on the legs and they’re big enough to read, you know, pretty easily if you have binoculars. So, uh, you know, there’s that kind of a continuity if you will, of that, uh, that appreciation.
[00:53:07]
I think a kind of continuity is another– another aspect that– that needs to be, uh, brought into the conscious state. It’s like if you don’t have anybody to bring you in the direction of nature or to talk about the eagles that were banded there, or there’s no– there’s no reference to it, you know. That kid's gonna grow up and know nothing about that. And you, you lose that continuity. And I think that the, uh, there’s an appreciation for the continuity whether it be like a– a migration or a, you know, a particular eagle that was banded thirty years ago that you’re now lookin’ at and that you have the backstory on their birth. You know, it’s kinda, it’s something neat. So there’s– there’s something, there’s a need to, um, you know, bring all of this into a consciousness and keep it there in some manner. Like in a corporation. You know, you hire somebody and you, uh, you automatically think that their successor, or you think of your successor. Because you want to ensure, you know, whatever, um– Uh, culture exists or– [sigh] process– Or the way of looking at processes, uh, Is maintained. So you wanna always have somebody kind of in the wings that you’re giving insight to as to, you know, the decisions that you’re making and so forth. So um. Again, this is where my writing comes in, You know it, it’s documented. Hopefully it will be in a book one of these days. Um. From RU Press. And, uh, you know, I guess if you move to an area and– and you don’t know what’s available, whatever your interests are, if you don’t know what’s available you really don’t have an affinity for that area, you don’t really embrace that area. You become a, you know, a transient more or less. If you don’t know that there’s certain, uh, places to go for whatever, you know, direction, whether it’s nature or bar. You know. You begin to appreciate an area more, the more that you know about it, the more intimate you become with that area. And, uh, that– that intimacy is– I don’t know how you acquire that, you know, unless you just happen on it. Um, you know, theoretically [laughs] you hand somebody a poster but, you know, that’s worked out well on cigarette packages [laughs]. Um. [clears throat] So yeah, I– I’ve constantly been around the river, get out early from J&J, Johnson and Johnson, and, uh, like on a, Christmas or whatever and I’d grab a canoe or whatever and paddle around. Um. And, uh, pretty much just explore. You know, just to see what’s goin’ on over there. And, uh, uh– The, Oh! One, one huge aspect in my life or, or– Um. How should I say it? The canoeing, is– is– I had more canoes, solo canoes, like shoes? Like some people have shoes for every occasion? I have a canoe for every water level and condition. My garage is stacked with solo boats. I have a couple of tandem boats for occasional friends that want to go with me. But. In 1990, 1991 I got involved in the race up in Maine– the canoe races. The longest canoe race in the– in the Northeast. And it was called the Kenduskeag Extreme Canoe Race. Started in the little village of Kenduskeag on the Kenduskeag Stream. And it ended in Bangor on the Kenduskeag River. Uh, right below the natural ledge. Um. [clears throat] Hope my parkin’ meter’s workin’ out– Had two hours on that– Um. [clears throat] So I, a friend sent me a couple’a tapes– they had televised that race on the local TV station, which set up at one particularly difficult area. And here’s all these folks comin’ down– this race is in, uh, mid-April. Mid-April up in Maine is, uh, pretty rugged weather. Uh, sometimes the river is, uh, overflowin’. Um, lot of times it is snowing. Rain. In 30 degrees– water temperature could range from 30 degrees on up to a high of around 50 degrees. So I required some thermal protection. And it was, uh, sixteen and a half miles. Uh, so I was so intrigued by that tape ‘cause I had taken that canoe out in all types of weather, so I was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah! This is for me!”
[00:58:16]
I went up there, and I paddled it for twenty years! And every April I would go up there with my family, and a friend would put me up over there– they lived, you know, in Bangor. And, uh, I’d go up and run, run that race. Uh, and it was great to meet the different people up there. You’d meet old people. Whit McElroy and Bill Sterns– they were significantly older than I was. And they’d blow by me in the canoe. There was a fella, can’t recall his name, that made the kayaks. He was in his 80’s, and one race we had an east wind, a high tide, and a full moon. [laughs] Which meant that the tidal portion at the end of the stream was so high that we couldn’t get under the– the bridges in Bangor. So they ended the race there. And, uh, you either sat around in your boat waitin’ for the tide to go down, or there was a very steep gravelly hill and you could get out over there. So of course I don’t need a boat ramp, you know, to launch anything. Yeah, that works. So I carry my canoe up there, and here’s, oh, I wish I could remember his name– There’s this guy carryin’ his kayak and he is struggling. And, uh, you know, I said to him, “Can I give you a hand?” “Aargh, get out of here!” You know. And, [laughs] he embodied the attitude of a C1 paddler. C1 open canoe paddlers are very independent and, uh, you know. Just. Wanted to do it all on their own. But, yeah, that– that was a, a fantastic race. They actually– I– I can’t get away from, like, the media, uh, took a picture of me and they did an article on me up there on the local papers in Bangor. Um, I came from New Jersey, they were givin’ out awards for the people who came the furthest to paddle there. But they kinda changed that when I started. [laughs] But yeah! I would truck up from New Jersey, spend one night, scout– scout the river the next day and stay and have the race the next day and the day after that drive home. And that was about a ten hour drive. But every April! You know. Rain or shine, snow or high water, low water. You know, I’d run that race. And in order to live, survive that race, what I would do is I would paddle to South Branch. And I’d paddle the Delaware-Raritan Canal near Danville. So I would– I would start paddling in earnest in December time frame. You know, after the bow season was over, you know, I’d be paddlin’ there December, January, February, March, April. Um– the only thing that stopped me was ice.
[01:01:20]
And, uh, that was an approximately eleven-mile run, and then I had to pile the sixteen miles, the sixteen and a half miles on the Kenduskeag. So that put me in pretty good shape. So on any portages I grab that boat and I can run up that hill and I can, you know. I– to me, success was if I felt good after the race. And then, uh, my friend Beverly Pratt who was, you know, a consonant gardner in– in Bangor. I would– I’d– I’d get home, I’d still be in my wetsuit, and the next thing I knew I’d be up in a tree trimmin’ branches. Or, uh, you know, cuttin’ weeds or whatever in the back there and haulin’em to the dump for her. So it’s like, I had [laughs] work to do after I was done with that race! I didn’t get the– the, you know, the– the pleasure of just relaxing and collapsing. So, uh, you know. That provided, you know, a– a focus point for me. And it got me out on the river, you know, to exercise and to feel good. So. You know. You can enjoy the river for many different reasons, and one of them for me was exercise. Simply exercise. You know, if you feel, um, depressed or whatever and, uh, you can’t concentrate, you launch the canoe and there’s no turnin’ back. You know. If you– if you want to do something else you paddle faster. So, uh, and then– and then, too, when you get out on the river on– on days that are, that– that would keep anybody else in, “Oh, I’m not goin’ out on the river today, don’t wanna paddle today,” you begin to see things and you begin to realize that nature’s a 24/7 operation. That, you know, if you just go on nice days you’re just gonna see, you know, it’s like walkin’ past a multiplex movie theater and, like, lookin’ in and you see like a– a little snippet of this movie, that movie and the other movie. But when you start to go at odd times, you start to go at night, in the evening, when it’s cold, when it’s snowin’, in the snowstorm, uh, you begin to see things that nobody else sees. So in a way, you know, I gave a lecture, I called to the Secret Farmer’s Society. It was like the Princeton Agricultural Association. It was a group founded after the Civil War and it’s limited to twenty-five members. And the only way a new member can get in is through death. So, uh, a friend thought that I was entertaining, [laughs] so I did a slideshow for them. And, um, ehat the hell was I gonna say now? Damn it to hell! Help me out here, where was I goin’ with this?
[01:04:07]
I was seeing things that you never see before– Ah! I had a point! I fell on the floor, rolled under the chair. [sigh] [silence] This is what happens when you go off on tangents like this. I was gonna circle back! [laugh] The Secret Farmer’s Society– Where was I a moment for that? Can you help me out?
Ah, you were talking about, ah, to the river at– at times when other people wouldn’t.
Yeah– This, this–
You used the analogy of the movie theater, of, uh, seeing–
Yeah, getting– getting snippets of information– Uhh– I hope it comes back to me. But yeah, there’s– you begin to see things that nobody else sees– Ah! He asked me for a title, what was the title to your presentation, and I called it, “A Thousand Mile Journey Down a Ten-Mile Stretch of River”. Which means that you could go down a– a stretch of the river. You could go down the entire length of the Raritan in one day. And you can see what you see. And you can go down that same stretch of river that– that same ten-mile stretch of river a thousand times, and each time you do you’re gonna see something different. Because of that continuation of– of the movie, if you will. You know, you’re down there at a certain time, this time, you’re at a different time. There’s all the different variables come into play, and you’re gonna see something different every time. You know, it speaks to the appreciation of the spouse or a mate; it’s like a– you’ve been with a person, you think you’ve seen everything. You think you’ve experienced everything. But then you come across a new experience, “This is something I’ve never seen.” It’s a new discovery! You know, it’s like goin’ into a– an old attic and and looking for treasure. So I– I think of it as a, as a ten mile, a 10,000 mile journey down a ten-mile stretch of river.
[01:06:23]
It’s never the same. There’s always something that’s gonna surprise you. So that’s another aspect of, you know, the river and the, uh, you know, being inspired by the river and taking that inspiration and, uh– uh, you know, employing that in your life that has nothing to do with the river or– or nature. You know, it’s– it’s almost like a, uh, a guru, if you will. [laughs] The Buddha. You go there for the inspiration and then you incorporate it into your life. So, and– and because I still write the articles, you know, I– I need to get out there all the time and see what I can see. Um, this, in March, uh, I went out and there’s a– a shale cliff. And, uh, a little ledge. And I, uh, associate more with, uh, paleolithic ancestors than I do with ethnic ancestors. And, uh, I’m– I’m sitting there and I’m saying, “God! I know there was some guy with a spear [laughing] that had to be sitting over here waiting for a deer to come by. But I’m sitting with the camera.” And, um, I was hoping to, uh, get a, uh, a picture of a beaver which had just cut down an ash tree, or maybe a mink or a red fox– you know, they’re pretty common. And I’m not sittin’ there long when, probably about eighteen paces—I had a pretty good angle down– down to the– to the river. And all of a sudden three terrified deer come runnin’ by. Say, “Oh!” So I pick up the camera figurin’ that more deer would come by, you know, who knows, maybe it’s a big buck or, you know, some kind of anomaly or, you know, unique photo. You take pictures of your kid the same way. Time after time after time, “Yeah, okay, I’ve seen the kid.” But every once in a while you come across a picture that’s like, “Wow! That’s outstanding!” So I pick up the camera to wait to see what comes next. But what comes next, I couldn’t believe! It’s a coyote! You know, for– for thirty years I’ve been hearin’ about coyotes! I know that they existed, I’ve seen everything from mink to otter to everything. I’ve never seen a coyote! There’s a coyote eighteen paces away! So the– the coyote’s comin, I’m over there snappin’ pictures, and I’m pretty sure the coyote can hear the shutter of the camera. So– so the coyote, uh, which, they’re known for being, like, super intelligent. And, like, stops behind a brush and then turns around, starts to head back, and I’m thinkin’, “Oh my God!” So I do this thing, uh, I squeak. [loud squeaking noise] Calling fox or owls or whatever, they think it’s a mouse or a vole that’s wounded. And they come to investigate. Well, damn! This coyote has stopped in its tracks and came down, came back, and that’s where I got the– the– most of the images of this coyot– got some beautiful coyote images! So I’ve been chasing this ghost for like thirty years and this ghost suddenly appears. And I actually have pictures of the– the river behind the coyote– like I said, it was eighteen paces away and I have a 420 millimeter lense. So, uh, you know, I got some, I got some dynamite pictures of that coyote. So it’s like every time you go out there, it’s like god knows what! I got some incredible pictures of a mink! I was bow hunting actually, and I take my camera with me, and I pick up my camera long before I pick up the bow. And, uh, I see a flash in the cornfield, and the only thing it could be that moves that quick and is that dark would be a mink. So the mink came into the grass in front of me, but the grass was so quick I just got flashes of the mink– knew it was a mink. Then the mink comes underneath me and I was on a fallen shagbark hickory tree.
[01:10:18]
And, uh, maybe about ten feet up. And the– the mink is under, and it’s like oh my god! There’s a little bowed path and then the river, a little bit of grass and then the river drops off. So the mink, like, scouts across the path, and I really can’t get a good picture. So the mink goes into the grass and I figure, “Well, what the heck, I might as well try.” So I do my, like, [loud squeaking noise] , damn mink sticks its head out of the grass, comes back to investigate what it was. And then came all the way out. And I got these incredible mink pictures as if you were at a zoo, or a diorama with a live mink standing, like, a few feet in front of ya, “Here, okay, take the pictures.” So it’s that sort of thing that, you know, you just– You can’t predict! You can’t say, “Hey, yeah, come on, we’ll go look at the mink.” No! It’s not gonna be there. Like, you never know what else will be there. Um, I did another article about, uh, lightning bugs, or fireflies if you feel more sophisticated. Um, you know, in the grassy open pasture to darker than all heck and on a cliff makes it even darker. And you go down there and you see this incredible light show. You know, somethin’ that you don’t see– well you can see if on your lawn and appreciate it. But if you go into a darkened area, you know, that’s a suitable habitat. You know, I call it cheap entertainment. [laughs] You go down there, you bring the kids and, you know, you’re just amazed at the light show that’s taken place before your eyes. You know. So there’s a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of– of– of– of things, of occurrences. Um, you know, that you would never really think of. You talk about cheap entertainment, talk about, uh, woodpeckers! You go and,uh, you hear a woodpecker. If you figure out what tree he’s in, you put your ear against the, uh, tree trunk, you can feel [slapping noise to imitate woodpecker pecking tree] the vibrations when the woodpecker pecks. I mean it’s, it’s [laughing] something that, you know, every family oak, “You have to go listen to the woodpecker.” But, you know, for the people that are interested in that sort of thing, yeah, they go out with their kids. Um, you know it– it’s incredible. So then you– you think about the woodpecker and it’s like, “Well how does that vibration travel all the way from that little bird through this tree?” And I could feel the vibration. And– and again that brings you to, you know, a different area of science: physics, engineering. You know, whatever. Uh, you think about the woodpecker, then you, you know, consider the construction of the woodpecker’s neck, and how the woodpecker could withstand pecking against the hard wood like that. And then that brings you into, you know, medicine. And anatomy. So there’s, there’s all sorts of– It’s there. It’s a library. You know. Just incredible.
[01:13:12]
There’s an article I wrote about an open book exam about goin’ out into the woods when it snows, try to unravel rabbit tracks. [laughs] Um. There’s just– [pause] It’s difficult, you know, I’m trying to– put together a work for, uh, publication of– of– book. And every time I look at it, I want to change something. Heather was tellin’ me, “Well that’s, that’s normal.” I figured, you know, this is– I got some sort of psychological problem. Not sayin’ I don’t but, uh, you know, I look at that and every once in a while I write an article that I [laughs] really like. I go back and look at it, say, “Oh yeah, that’s good, that’s a good one.” And, uh. But, you know, so many of the others I look at and it’s like, “Aw geez, I gotta change this,” I feel embarrassed, I’m like, “What was that!” So I’m really anxious to get this book out. And it’s a compilation of my, uh, my articles, fifteen years of articles. And, uh, photographs, uh, you know, tryin’ to– my problem had been trying to slice and dice this because they’re trying to be rather eclectic and unpredictable in my articles. I don’t want, you know, anybody to be bored. Uh. God knows what I’ll write about. It’ll be something related to the river or something inspired by the river. Uh, and always include some sort of– of morsel of– of– of information that will arouse somebody’s curiosity. Even if it’s just one person. That can bring them into deeper knowledge and they can feel that gravitational pull of knowledge. Uh, and who knows where it will lead. But– [silence]
Pause for one second–
[End of First Recording]
[Beginning of Second Recording]
[00:00:00]
Yeah, so I go up to Maine and Maine is the type of place where, uh, there’s a lot of lonely people up there. And there’s a lot of people with, you know, real hard luck stories and so forth. And, uh, I for some reason attract these people. [laughs] Still got tape left? And, uh, it's just incredible. I’ve learned to instead of, you know, comin’ across somebody that you really don’t want to talk to, you really don’t want to listen to, you just wanna, like, block out. I’ve learned to relax and kind of like, you know, allowing the wind to pass through you when you’re canoeing in a high, high wind. You don’t struggle and grunt. You allow the wind to pass through. You go to a peaceful place. Uh, you don’t argue with the wind. It’s the same thing when you, you come across some of these characters that are goin’ for the instant intimacy? [laughs] You know, they’re tellin’ you things about their life that– Yeaaah, that’s okay, you keep that to yourself. But, uh, yeah, I– I’ve– I guess I’ve experienced it enough times where now I kind of embrace it? Where I come across somebody where, really have nothing in common with, really don’t want to hear your story. But there’s a– a richness. It’s almost like a, mining for gold? You know, everybody has something, uh, valuable to say. And it’s– it’s your job to find the gold nuggets in it. [laugh] So, uh, you know, that’s, that’s something that I begin to appreciate. You know, you– you’d pick some knowledge, you’d– you’d pick up some insight, you know in– in going some place where you don’t want to go or being some place you don’t want to be. But, um, yeah. I walked down to the woods, uh, one night. I had my bow’n’arrow. You know, traditional archery. It’s a traditional archery. And, uh, this guy comes out, had a beard, you know. Salivating. And rifle. You know, it’s dark, I’ve about a half a mile of woods to go through. Friendly guy! Starts talkin’ to me. And I notice that it looked like he didn’t have a lower jaw. So I’m thinkin’ maybe he had cancer? Or something like that? But he was– he was out there, he was doin’ his thing. And, uh, it was, ah, Thanksgiving Day actually. And he’s tellin’ me his story and so forth and then he said something to me about his– his– his problem. Or his injury. And, uh, I’d been around long enough to say, “Oh, yeah, your face?” And he was talkin’ about his leg! [laughs] But there’s– there’s– there’s a richness– there’s another guy that I met– I go up there in May pickin’ fiddlehead ferns, which is a delicacy up there. Martha Stewart has shows on it, how to prepare fiddleheads, you know, twelve, ah, twelve ways to prepare fiddlehead ferns. So I go up because the lady who would sponsor me up there liked fiddleheads, and so I’d go pick fiddleheads, and I met this one guy and he was actually in the Kenduskeag canoe race.
[00:03:20]
He was in a kayak and I never really met him up there, but once we started talkin’, “Oh yeah! I’m in the race too!” So, you know, from that point on we’d make a point of, you know, sayin’ hello or whatever. But anyway, he invited me over to his, uh, house. And it was a– a trailer in the, back in the woods there somewhere. And I had trouble findin’ it. And I pull up and I go in there and, uh, you know, I don’t smoke, I’m kinda a healthy guy. And there’s cigarettes all over, cigarettes and everything and we’re talkin’ and he tells me a story about, you know, he was a hunter and all. They all are up there. And how he had to sell a lot of his guns to pay for his son’s funeral. You know, it’s like, oh my god. And, uh, so, you know, you get to experience– You know, things that you had never experienced before and feel things that you never felt before. [laugh] While I’m sittin’ there a car pulls up. This big burly guy gets out, all tatted, you know. Looks, you know, looks like he could eat people. And he comes in there and he sits down and he smokes, you know. He lost his license, DUI. And, um, I’m sittin’ there in my pastel short and shirts! [laughing] But once they found out that I paddled the Kenduskeag and I did it twenty times? You know, it’s like, there’s like, it’s like, “Oh I respect you.” You kinda get that feeling. So it’s– it’s neat to get into that community and, uh, you know, meet some of these people. There’s a guy, uh, Zip Kellogg. He’s a librarian. He does the Kenduskeag Extreme Canoe Race for the most part standing up. You know, he’ll go through, you know, where the cameras are, where the TV cameras are. He’ll go through the roughest water standing up in the boat. He usually wears some fashion of a tuxedo with a carnation. And, uh, Zip is kinda like the– a– a cover child for the Kenduskeag Extreme Canoe Race and made the cover of, um–-what’s the sports magazine that covers like golf and baseball and, uh, football and, the major magazine– whatever it is, Zip is on that cover. He’s a cool guy. In fact I’ve contacted him, uh. He’s in my class, the– the sea one? Uh, class, and, uh, so every year I got to talk to him a little bit at the start of the race and everything. And I’ve contacted him, I– I did a couple of articles on Thoreau, and since he’s a librarian and Thoreau had been up there, um, you know, he– he pointed me to some, uh, references and so forth.
[00:06:07]
Um, which brings me to another article that I wrote. If footprints and shadows were indelible it turns out that Thoreau, uh, this is going back to the value of the river from, uh, from a– a tourism standpoint, uh, Thoreau had behest of Louisa May Alcott’s father. Came down to Eagle’s Wood. It was a, um, uh– Forget what he called these communities– Egalitarian community. Uh, where they’re a group of people who want to eat the best food, be the healthiest. You know. Be educated. Utopian society I guess it would be called. “Eagle’s Wood.” That was established in Perth Amboy. So they got Thoreau to come down and do lectures. To give Thoreau a little bit of money they employed him to survey the area. So he surveyed, ah, Perth Amboy and– and– and that area. He was there for a month! You know, who knew that Thoreau was in New Jersey for a month? You know, Thoreau was al– always at Walden Pond. What’s Thoreau doin’ in New Jersey? He doesn’t belong here. Yeah! So Thoreau was here, and in his journals he talks about walkin’ along the North Shore out of Eagle’s Wood, which apparently, from what I could tell, ended at what like where Route 35 is now. Two miles up river, which brought him into the same territory that I ran around in as a kid. So it’s a, you know, again, if Thoreau’s footprints were indelible, you know. I would actually come across Thoreau’s footprints. You know. It, if– and– If that wasn’t enough, I go off and I do this Kenduskeag race, and Thoreau walked around the Kenduskeag stream. There’s plaques on the sides over there, you know, commemorating Thoreau walking around. So as I go up there, I go down here, there’s Thoreau. If you go online, there’s more stuff a– if you just type in “Thoreau”– oh my God! There’s so much stuff on Thoreau. You could go and, you know, today’s July 9th? You could go and there’s a place where– this is what Thoreau wrote on July 9th of whatever year. But, there is so much followers, it’s incredible. And, you don’t– there– there was like a little blurb that Thoreau was there in Perth Amboy in, like, the history of Perth Amboy, one of the brochures or the documents that– that you look online. But nobody is like, screaming out loud, “Hey! Thoreau! Thoreau! Thoreau was here!” You know? And– and this is another, I– I kind of feel, you know, this way about it because it attracts too much attention. You know, things get trampled. But here was have– think about it! The Garden State Parkway and the New Jersey Turnpike jammed with people– talk about the Atlantic Flyway for ducks. You have the– Millions of people comin’ by right through! Right– right over the area where Thoreau was walking and nobody knows about it! So, not only do you, you know, is it a unique, you know, environment. You have Thoreau, is there! Now, you walk through there y– you, you know, wrote a couple little blurbs about his walk, about the plants that he saw and things. Um, so that’s another, you know, aspect of the Raritan River that, uh, that– that should be publicized. You know, to– to help, ah, you know, bring support for whatever sort of, uh, you know, environmental efforts are taking place there. You know, to appreciate, uh, you know, his presence. But, you know, you ha– [laughs] You have all the components, you just have to put them all together. It’s like going to IKEA! [laughs] You know, it’s all there, you just have to put it all together. You– there’s billions of people passin’ right over this one spot. And nobody knows about it. Their head is off to some nature destination somewhere. And it’s like, my God! Look what you’re drivin’ over! So yeah, Thoreau is– You know, he’s– he’s a part of this river.
[00:10:27]
Some of the pictures that I have, I have, uh, you know, pictures of me leanin’ on a muskrat house over there. Uh, along the area that Heather and I, you know, uh, visited. And, uh, you know, uh, uh, it turns out that the muskrats are havin’ a real problem in the– the northeast. Uh, the populations are takin’ a nosedive. And, uh, nobody really knows why. Uh, s– I think Massachusetts is doin’ some work on it, I– I don’t think New Jersey is doin’ anything. But, um, you know, the muskrats were– were quite prevalent and– and certainly at a, you know, for generations. There were generations of trappers that, uh, earned money trappin’ muskrat. So, uh, you know, I go to the Rutgers Symposium and they’re talkin’ about chemicals and the emerging pollutants and the microplastics and, you know, we’re saving the river. And so what are you savin’ the river for? You know? Um. And so, the wildlife community, the mink, the beaver and so forth, you know, are, uh– Shareholders! In all the effort to, uh, you know, publicize the river, to clean it up and, and so forth. Um. So I always try to bring that up. You know, this year I did a little, uh, at like the poster thing over there with the eagle banding, you know, just to kind of bring people’s attention away from the– the chemistry and the remediation, the engineering to say, “Well, wait a minute,” you know, “you’re talkin’ about this river, but it– it’s almost sterile in a way.” You know, unless you drape it with this, you know, awareness of the wildlife that the river supports, you know, other than people.
[00:12:25]
[long silence] [sigh] Yeah, you’ve got a live one here! I keep goin’! [laughs] [long silence] Yeah, I guess with the, uh, you know, again, some of those aspects that, you know, maybe socially are not, like, “Oh, well I’m a trapper!” [gasp] “Get away from me!” I mean, this– this is– this is part of the history of that river. Um, you know, I look through, uh, uh, newspaper archives a lot. You know, when I do articles, and I’m lookin’ for any kind of reference to the river. And, uh, I find a lot of stuff on the– the Raritan. There was some, uh– Uh, female in the, I don’t know, early part of the century? Some of the stuff’s in the 1800’s. Set a world record, uh, in the, uh, in the Raritan, I think in the New Brunswick area? So th– there’s a lot of– of stories. You know, that nobody knows about. Um, this hit home. My sister was lookin’ through the, uh, Woodbridge, uh– Township library archives, the newspaper archives. And she put in our family name. And it turns out that my uncle, along [church bell tolls in background] with two of his buddies, stole dynamite [church bell tolls in background] from the clay banks when he was 13 years old. [church bell tolls in background] [chuckles] Of course they got caught, that’s how it made the paper. But they had seven kids in that family, and of all the rumors that, you know, people talked about each other, nobody knew about Uncle Peter stealing [laughing] the dynamite from the clay banks. Poor Grandma had to pay a five dollar fine and I think he was on probation for a year [laughs] But that’s when the clay banks were an operation and they used dynamite, uh, I guess, which brings me back to the clay banks again. Um, that area, you know, uh, aside from havin’ that– that, uh, neat, um, variety of soils– Is full of springs, natural springs. And what they would do is they would dig the clay and they would hit a spring and get flooded out, then they’d move to the next spot and dig that out.
[00:15:00]
And so that water, I mean, there was just so much clean water in that area. You know, in– in the lower river there. Um, yeah, there were, there like several ponds [clears throat] that were abandoned. And even the river was redirected, Crowsmar Road was redirected I think three or four times. [clears throat] There’s Mullen Springs Works in Perth Amboy. They just recently went out of business. Yeah, I was lookin’ up Mullen’s, you know, see what I could see online and, uh. [laughs] There were antique Mullen’s Water Jug. So I guess it’s now, you know, we’ve entered the ages and people are collecting artifacts from the Mullen’s Water Works. You know, it was just right across from the, uh, vocational school, former vocational school. Uh, so there’s a lot of clean water in that area. In, uh, what was it, in ‘56 I think it was Eisenhower signed the Interstate Roads Act or whatever it was that he signed. Approximately in 1956. And that’s where they started to, uh, plan out, uh, the construction of 287, Route 440, you know, the South End over here. And I remember walkin’ around and there were these, uh, slats with ribbons. And, uh, obviously surveying it and wrecked ‘em. Didn’t want anyone invading our territory, our clay banks. And, um, you know, next thing, you know, 287– I had to move because of the parkway and now 287 was comin’ through and, you know, destroying the, my– my world. But there’s one place where you get off at Fords and Crowsmar Road onto 287 North. And at the bottom of that entrance ramp was a, uh– It was a vast clay bank, it was kind of a valley. And there was a little flooded area, was a swamp with some cattails. And that area was just a tiny, maybe about as big as a shroom, but produced black rats, black muskrats. I mean, not– Not every rat you caught was a black rat, but if you caught a black rat chances are you’re gonna catch a black rat there. So there’s this isolated population of muskrat. And, uh, they’re melanistic. And when you sold furs back then, it might, I still have some price lists from– from, you know, what you get from the muskrats for different sizes, and how you prepare them and so forth. And maybe you get like a dollar and a quarter, a dollar fifty. You get a black rat and it’s like three bucks. And when you’re talkin’ about those [laughs], those numbers, it’s like, “Whooooa!” It was just a cool thing to see a black muskrat, you know, let alone trap one and then, you know, reap the monetary reward for it.
[00:18:03]
But every time I go down that exit ramp, you know, I think about those muskrats. And how it’s– It’s kind of scary. Every time we’d come back from the shore and cross under the bridge, my uncle would say, “Oh yeah! That’s– played baseball in that clay bank.” And I’m saying, “Oh my God, am I doin’ that?” [chuckles] “Am I boring somebody to death, you know, talking about this kind of stuff?” Um. I guess that’s what you do! [chuckle] You talk about what your experiences were. But when you begin to see the pattern, it’s kind of disturbing in a way. [laughs] It’s like, am I becoming my Uncle Peter with his stories about the clay banks and the baseball games? [chuckles] Yup! [silence] Yeah, when I think back, you know, the earliest times over there, think back to that Jenning’s Boat Yard. I wish I had pictures of that. They had a– Big giant barn where they built big giant boats at one time with old World War II posters in there. It wasn’t anything fancy. It was even, uh, you know. In existence in the mid 60’s, ‘bout mid 60’s is when it went away. But on the wide part of Crow’s Mill Creek they had a– a– a series of, uh, floating docks. And they owned all these old, obviously abandoned boats tied up there. And, uh, I was so fascinated by the architecture of the boats. They had these round transom boats that had to be built in the, in the 20’s, in the 30’s. Uh, and I’ve never forgotten that. I just wish I had pictures of those boats.
[Editor’s Note: A transom is the vertical section at the rear of a boat where the two sides of the hull meet.]
You know, I just. You know, there’s something about the– the tidal creek. Have the– the peacefulness, you know, that’s protected from the reeds. And the water is like a mirror. And it’s obviously, you know, rising and falling based on the, on the tide. But there’s a, you know, when you get to a– a– a slack tide, you know. You’re either at the bottom or the top end. Uh. There’s– there’s kind of a stillness. And peacefulness. You know, that a– that comes from being there in those tidal creeks. And, uh, so I guess that’s, that’s one memory that never really fades, whether it’s based on a photograph of memories or whether it’s based on a photograph or actual memories [chuckles]. You know, hard to tell. I guess it doesn’t matter. But. Yeah, yeah. That’s um. I’m always appreciative of, of tidal flats, tidal creeks. You know, whether it’s South Jersey or whether it’s up in Maine. You know. There’s that, that common feature. And it’s interesting, uh, Allison Jones from No Water No Life is doin’ the uh, a book on the–she’s gotta grant. And she’s comparing the Marrow River Basin in Tanzanika to the Raritan River Basin. And uh. It’s pretty interesting. Uh. I’d like to see that, you know, when it’s done. She used a few of my photos in some of her presentations. Uh. But again, it speaks to the, the commonality or the– [sigh] I guess– You know, if you look at– at– at some of the stuff that I write you’d say, “Oh, well this is provincial and it has, uh, local interest.” But in reality, it’s not meant– it’s meant to appeal locally of course. But the– the real intent is the broader interest it has in that, if this is what exists here, what exists where you are? You know? This is– this is the same river that, you know, like, old cowboy movies where a guy cuts his fist or his hand and cuts the other guy’s hand says, [clap] “We are now Blood Brothers.” [laugh] It’s the same thing with these rivers. You know, the Raritan River flows out to sea and– and God knows what waters it’s mingling with in– in Ireland or South America. You know, depending on the currents. And, uh, again, the flyover brought into uh, focus the difference between the land people and the air people. You know, where you begin to see– Like, uh, you know, I’m like an hour and fifteen minutes from Sandy Hook if I drive. And the plane, I’m like ten minutes from Sandy Hook. So you begin to see the connectivity of areas that you’d think of in isolation. You know, if you’re a ground person, you think of, you know, this one particular area as being, you know, almost an island, you know, intellectually. And then when you get up in the lane you begin to see how things are actually all one. So again, it’s that, you know, the search for, the quest for knowledge and, you know, leading out to an isolated thread and then realizing that you need to follow it back and bring everything back to understand the whole, um– You know, it’s so much bigger than muskrats and mink, muskrats and rabbits. It's like, this is what we have here, an area thought to be sanitized of nature. What do you have in your backyard? So why don’t you start lookin’ and maybe there’s something that you could raise the awareness on, or– or, preserve or say, whatever. So, what you’re seein’ here, you know, it’s like doin’, you know, research on– on blood cells, you’re usin’ particular blood cells from one rat but it has applications, you know, across all humanity. You know. Analogous thinking. [pause] So I guess I’m tapped out. Of course I’ll remember a whole bunch of really cool things that I– I– I should have said that were really interesting and relevant rather than prattle on like my Uncle Peter. [laughs]
[00:24:46]
[laughs] Um, could you tell me a little bit about your family?
What family? [chuckle]
Wife, kids, those kinds of things.
Oh! [laughs]
[laughs]
I mean, since we’re– we’re talkin’ over here of our earliest memories. Uh, yeah, my– my wife, ah, actually grew up in Keasbey. I have two daughters. They both went to, uh, Rutgers here. Uh, one daughter has, uh, factor. They’re living on campus now, they just got her job at RU. And my son-in-law is a– I don’t know what he is. Um, they’re, like, a resident director for Cook and Douglass campuses. His name is Nate Johnson. And, uh, my other daughter is– is, you know, not married yet. You know, as interested in the outdoors and things like that. I hope she finds her way soon. [chuckle] And, uh, my daughter Leigh Ellen now has three kids. Um, last one was born on St. Joesph’s Day, so I didn’t care what they named it, I was gonna call him “Joe.” And, uh, the other son was born, believe it or not, on Groundhog Day. [laugh] And then their oldest is Chase, Chase Arabella. Chase being a girl, not a boy. And, uh, she’s, uh, goin’ into, might have been fourth grade. And they’re all livin’ on the, I guess the Douglass Campus over by Nicholas or Nickels, whatever it is. Nicholas. Yes it is. [pause] And that’s about it. The rest of my family’s dead! [chuckle]
[00:26:39]
How do you try to, um– The Raritan and that kind of outdoor activity is important to you. Have you tried to pass that, pass that to your kids?
Oh yeah, I– I took the kids out in the canoe all the time. You know, I have about a– a quarter to a half mile carry down the pasture, over some cliffs and hills so. I got down there with the canoe all the time. So I would always take them out on the river. Um, my older daughter– Was, uh, she’s a strange girl. She got, she, like a– an academic itinerary. She was, uh, [chuckle] working at Rutgers like a Residential Director type of position for– for several years. She’s had two– She’s got two masters degrees, one in Education, one in Spanish Translation. And, uh, so she ends up not getting renewed at Rutgers and ends up at the University of Connecticut, and from the University of Connecticut she gets involved with the University of Virginia Around the World Cruise? University of Je– Virginia has this– This– this course, if you will, that people sign up for. It starts in either the Bahamas or Puerto Rico or whatever. And it circumvents the globe! And Leigh Ellen says, “Yeah! That’s what I’m doin’. I’m gonna be like a, one of the staff.” It’s like, “Do you get seasick?” [chuckle] So here’s Leigh Ellen! Hoppin’ on a boat! Goin’ around the world! Next thing you know, she gets a job at Marist College. And she’s livin’ in Florence Italy! And while I– I do this Kenduskeag race solo all the time and take pride in that, I wanted to, um, for my– my youngest daughter, Lindsey, wanted to, you know, do that race. So I said, “Okay, you wanna do that race?” So I got her all outfitted and ready to do the race. And Leigh Ellen calls and says, “Hey Lindsey! You wanna come to Florence?” So just before the race, Lindsey backs out and ended up stayin’ in Florence for a month or so. Instead of doin’ the race with dad. [chuckle] I– I– I bow– I’ve been bowhunting since I was 13 years old. I’m fascinated with, uh, old technology. And when I say “old technology,” you know, I’m talkin’ about prehistoric technology like the canoe and the bow and arrow.
[00:29:27]
Two pieces of technology that have never gone out of style. You buy anything now and, you know, in two years it’s like you have to buy the next item. I mean, that’s passé. You know, it’s not longer relative, nobody knows how to use it. You know, if you took a caveman that got frozen in the ice and thawed him out and gave him a, you know, a Jenson canoe and a paddle, he’d know exactly what to do with it. It’s this technology [laughs] that, you know, has transcended time and culture. Uh. So anyway, I’m totally enamored with, uh, archery. And, uh, and uh, paddling. Um. [pause] So anyway I– I– I bow hunt again. Paying homage to the earliest ancestors. You went out to the mountain and, you know, you went out and you– you– you caught your food, you prepared your food. Uh. You knew how to, uh, you know, all the home ec stuff. You know how to cook, you know how to sew. Uh, you know, do all this stuff. So I’d be out bow hunting and I’d get a deer. And, uh, I would always eat the heart. I have a certain recipe for the heart, chop it up, throw in some wild turkey one-on-one, and a whole buncha honey. And maybe some onions and so forth and you really can’t tell what you’re eating unless the atriums, you can’t do anything with the atrium. You can’t disguise the atrium. But the rest of itself, you know, small cubes of heart and you boil it down, and it’s a real sweet sauce. And I’ve given it to people who would, like, rather eat bugs than a heart. And they come back for more. They real, they really enjoy it. So my– my older daughter got into eating heart and, uh, so every deer I got, you know, first thing I’d do is take the heart out, cut the ventricles and the atrium, make sure there’s no coagulated blood in there so it’s nice and fresh. And [laughs] one– one– one night I got a nice buck and, uh, it was dark in the woods and I left the heart. And Leigh Ellen put up such a stink that I threw her in the truck, we went back, found the heart, came back, cooked it up and ate it. So. Yeah, they’ve been exposed to all this. And every year what I do is I go and I– I get the deer hide turned into buckskin. You know, the– the hair off with the intent of making up some– some clothes. So I have a whole stack of– of buckskin from these deer, too.
[00:32:02]
And, uh, you know with the, bein’ involved with the outdoors and the turtles and so forth. Um. I worked at a place called, uh, “Warner Brothers Jungle Habitat.” Uh, I worked at the veterinarian that was in charge of the veterinary clinic. And this was Warner Brothers in West Milford. Um. It was, uh, it came into being when they were gonna dam up the Delaware River at Tock’s Island Dam. Was supposed to be the largest impoundment on the East Coast. A Playboy Club moved to North Jersey. So these clubs were opening up and Warner Brothers had a choice between, uh, West Milford, which is all glacial rocks, and, uh– And where, uh, Great Adventure [4] is. Nice flat, sandy plains.
[Editor’s Note: Great Adventure is one of the amusement parks run by the Six Flags franchise. It is located in Jackson Township, NJ.]
And Warners figured, “Well, who the hell is gonna go down to South Jersey?” And they decided to build up in West Milford. So I ended up in, uh– In– in West Milford, uh, actually through Rutgers. One of the professors, uh, Dr. Enrique Santa Marina that taught animal science put out the word that Warner Brothers was looking for somebody to work in the veterinary clinic. So I said, “Yeah!” Raised my hand, “I’ll go!” So I went up there, and sure enough they offered me the job. And I was to be the interface between, uh– uh, Warners and the veterinarians which were, uh– uh– uh, I guess consultants? Uh, or– or contract. They were contracted. They weren’t actual Warner employees but they were contracted. And the fellow that headed up had an office in Beverly Hills in California, had done a lot of studio work, was Michael Jackson’s vet. You know, later on. And, uh, appeared in the, as like a character in– in– there’s an episode of Quincey [5]. That was a, um, a detective. And it showed a, a– Marty was a, was the vet from California. And he had like a– a bozo-type of hairdo. He had red hair, and he was real thin and had a lot of freckles.
[Editor’s Note: Quincey M.E. was a televised medical-mystery drama that ran between 1976 and 1983. The plot detailed a medical examiner who helped local police complete their investigations.]
And so the– the– the movie opened up and you see this freckley hand intubating a tiger. And it’s like, “My God! That looks like Marty’s hand!” And then the camera pans back and you can see the character actor that was playing the veterinarian, you know, muckin’ around by the tige– and there’s Marty in the back, pokin’ his finger into a raccoon cage! So it would [chuckles] appear in there, he had a large collection of dolphins. So I worked with him and his partner, Bert. And then they pulled Bert and I was alone. Uh, actually, when I went up there I figured that, “Oh, they have to have this, like, huge staff of people.” No! [laughs] I was it!
[00:35:15]
And, uh, then what they– they did after Bert left– Marty was still involved to a certain extent. He would come and, you know, I would spend the week with him and we’d go out and do what we needed to do. And, uh, then they brought in a couple of exotic vet, you know, that I worked with. They, um– So I worked with, uh, several different veterinarians. But I pretty much directed them, you know, in what to do in the capture of animals. Tranquilization. You know, everything from rhinoceros to, uh, you know, knockin’ down tigers or lions, bears, oh my. I– I got to do a necropsy on an elephant. African elephant. Unfortunately. Um. So that was like a seven day a week job. For most of the time that I was there, until they closed down. And, uh, that was before my children, so I have a lot of artifacts and photos. I raised like fifteen lion cubs at home. So I have all kinds of lion cub photos. I have to, uh, take care of them every four hours. Have to stimulate them to go to the bathroom. I’d have to, uh, get them to, you know, go from a bottle to a solid food, that sort of thing. There was a– a couple, uh, Joel Freeman who was the motion picture commission for New Jersey. He and his wife took a trip to Africa. And, uh, when they came back, Warners decided to gift them one of the lion cubs. So I had that lion cub in my care. I would– I would actually commute from the Shanic or Fords to West Milford which was fifty-five miles, about a mile and fifteen minutes, every day, seven days a week. And then I’d have to be up all night, ya know, every four hours to feed the cubs, take care of the cubs. Had the incubator, had a ‘63 Corvette, still have that. And I would put the incubator in the split window. That– drive up there and back and I had a blazer and, you know, went off and on ‘cause that was a lot miles. So anyway, once I got em onto solid food, I gave them to Mrs. Freeman. It’s like as a surprise, “Here’s your lion!” [laughs] And, uh, the Freeman’s took it home, and when it got to a point, they brought it back and we kept it at Warners in West Milford, and Mrs. Freeman would come once a week and put on this old beat up jacket and get into the pen with, uh, with Duke the lion. Gave him a real good name! [chuckles] And, uh, and Duke would like, you know, nuzzlin’ her and rippin’ up the jacket and everything. Uh, I don’t remember if we declawed Duke. We declawed all the lion– whenever we came across or– or had to do something with one of the cats, we declawed in the front because of the, uh, what they called technical term “compound mate trauma.” You know, they’re always messin’ with each other, mating with each other. So it would be a bloody mess if they had their front hooks, as we’d call them, you know. Rippin’ each other up. So as a rule for the, uh, tigers and the lions, we would take the front claws out. And, uh, you know. It made it more, you know– less veterinary in– intervention was required. And then I would tattoo the cats. The tigers, the lions, and the bears, whenever we had one down. I would tattoo the gum with uh, like a W.J.–W.B.J.H., for Warner Brothers, and a number. So basically, like, if a lion or tiger got out’n ate some kid at a bus stop, you know, Warner’d say “Up! Not our lion!” [chuckles]
[00:39:09]
You know, like, the– the issue they had in Jackson with the– the tiger lady. You know, couldn’t figure out where the tiger came from? Because people do look at New Jersey as kind of a dumping ground for wildlife. You know, they figure, you know, there are. You read stories, you look it up, you can find people that had tigers in their apartment. You know, and God knows what, alligators and things like that. And when they get too big or can’t be handled they take’m over to Jersey, drop’m off. [laugh] And then you have the illegal animal trade, which is pretty good. So. Yeah! Never can tell. But yeah! So, uh, I– I had a lot of, uh, lot of experience at the, you know, Capturing. You know, immobilizing and, uh, retreating. Everything from cobras on up to caribou, to elephants, and what have you. I’m still good, pretty good with a lasso. Uh. [chuckle] With a quick release Honda. And, uh, I was, uh, tryin’ to show Lindsey how to throw a rope on something. Think I caught the neighbor’s cows a couplea times, they were all impressed [chuckle]. There’s a quick release Honda, they call it on there. And it makes the loop, you know, connects the loop to the– to the main– and on these quick releases, it’s metal and if you’re working with a wild animal or whatever, you’re not gonna go try to lift the loop off of it. But if you have like a little, you know, string or rope attached to the hook and, uh, maybe you pull that and it releases and the rope comes right off. So, uh, I was showin’ Lindsey what the, you know, how to rope. Like, “Here, run by me!” And I threw Larry and the quick release hit’er in the head and blood all over the place [laughs] Her sister almost fainted. [laughing] So we took’er to the doctor and the nurse said, “What happened!” So I says, “I’m the perp.” [laughing] Yeah, she got a couple stitches and a story out of it. So yeah. So all that stemmed from, you know, my experience at Rutgers. On the banks. On the– on the river banks here. And, uh, you know, all that comes together in my articles, you know. The perspective. You know, the inspiration. Um. You know, the way you look at things. You know, you look at things from a certain– I once heard a percent: if anything I try to be– Creative and generate perspectives that someone would never have considered. Like, people are entrenched in their– their thoughts, you know, how they– they look at the world. It’s almost like a trench or a rut . They– they constantly walk in and they get entrenched. So I like to present them a perspective that they would have never considered before. Not sayin’ it’s right or wrong, it’s almost artistic in a way. Well, why don’t you look at it this way? See what you can make of it? So I– I enjoy that kind of thing, and I also bring that into the articles. [clears throat] So now if I, you know, I worked on the Black Bear Project with the State, um, when that first started up, um, Pat McConnell who headed that project for the state, uh, would contact me at Warners and ask me for dosages for, uh, you know, raccoons, things that the state had to deal with. You know, what– what– what dosages did you use to knock them down, tranquilize them, immobilize them would be the proper term. And, uh, worked with the, uh, state vet and with the federal vet, Doctor McKinney from Dover.
[00:43:08]
They oversaw the operation, made sure everything was on the up and up. And, uh, then when the place closed, uh, Warners and, uh, the Hunt Brothers– they’re the largest animal shippers in the world. They do a lot of restoration in Africa with the Grevy Zebra, and the Bongo, and whatnot. And, uh, they were at odds. And, um, I was the guy at the place at the time. And, uh, Warners didn’t wanna sell to the Hunt Brothers, and the Hunt Brothers were tryin’a screw Warners, and Warners was tryin’a screw the Hunt Brothers, got this on tape? [laughs] It was a bad scene. And what they did is they, uh, they snuck some pictures of some dead animals and then created a story around it. And this was because there,there was the contract that said that the animals that aren’t removed by a certain date referred back to Warners. Warners was gettin’ out of the business and Warners was stuck with these, like, poached act tigers. [clears throat] And a herd of, a, Bactrian Camels, those are the two humped camels. That came up TB positive. And a lot of those, those species would come up TB positive, but retest’em and they’re okay. That was just the nature of it. And this is workin’ closely with the state and the federal vet. They knew what was goin’ on. We even sacrificed some animals when they came up TB positive and took tissue samples and submitted them. And, uh, they were, they were negative. So everybody knew that, you know. Legally they came up positive, you couldn’t move’m. But you could test ‘em again in sixty days or whatever it was, and if they came up, you know, clean, then they could ship ‘em out whenever. So Warners wanted to be out of the business and now, with the Hunt Brothers, you know, creating this– this illusion of bad things going on, you know, it’s on the news, it’s on all of the– the channels. You know, created quite a mess. Uh, you know, it– it’s– it’s slowed down and now, you know, Warners was stuck with these, like, gazillion, uh, deer that nobody wanted, like Sicca and Fallow deer. Again, the herd of Bactrian camels and the poached act tigers, or pre-act Tigers. ‘73 there’s the Endangered Species Act. So it was the pre-act tigers that they had there. You know. It’s just a mess. And I happen to be there, at, not workin’ for Warners, but workin’ for the Hunt Brothers. To– to capture and ship the animals out. So I was in a,– a real awkward position. The newspaper, one– one of the headlines said somethin’ about, uh, asking the question if there are ritualistic killings, animal killings going on [laughing] at Warners.
[00:46:11]
Um. I remember the night that it hit I was, uh, I got done probably about– 11:30, 12 o’clock, drove the fifty-five miles home, took a shower, and started to have my supper at about 1:00. And I got a call from the guard that one of the zebras was down. So I jump back in the car and drive the fifty-five miles out at 2 o’clock in the morning. And there were actually two zebra down. What they didn’t know was that if you shine the lights on the zebra at night, they stampede. So two of them ran into a fence. One of them was dead that we didn’t know about, it was dark. And the– the other one was, like, just about breathing. So before I could euthanize it, I would make a call to, you know, whatever vet they wanted me to at the time. And then, uh, tell him the story, and he would tell me, “Okay, euthanize it.” So, uh, by the time I got off the phone with the vet, the– the animal had already died. Uh, and then the next day I had to go down to see Dr. C.K. Jewel who was the state veterinarian at Trenton. So I drive the fifty-five miles home, got up, drove to Trenton, and, you know, talked to him for a while. And he was completely satisfied that there was nothin’ goofy going on. And then I go back up. Now from Trenton up to West Milford, alright, now Harry McKinney the federal vet is surrounded with reporters. And he calls me up and he’s screamin’ at me, “There’s dead animals at the–” Yeah! There were dead animals! I don’t know where they came from. That’s a whole ‘nother story, I don’t want to get into that. I might get bumped off. Um, but, uh, I kid you not. So anyway, Harry’s goin’ nuts over there and I have a– a zebra that was down that we didn’t know about. Then there was a buffalo that died– how’d the buffalo die? I didn’t know. But now we had a buffalo. And he wanted these things buried. The Hunt Brothers are telling me, “No, you can’t bury them, you have to do a necropsy on them and submit the tissues for insurance.” You know. What’s a boy to do? So there’s a big van that we had and I had them put the bodies in the van and drive around the park while the reporters, [laugh] while the reporters and the vet inspected the place. [laughing] And then, when all that was over, you know I did the necropsy, submitted the tissue samples and everybody was happy. But yeah, that was a, you know. That was some time. [laughs] That was, that was some time. That was, that was, you know. Whoo! Thank you Dr. Santa Marina. [laughs]
[00:49:02]
So a– again, it’s with that experience, you know. I went into Johnson and Johnson, worked in CNS pharmacology, worked with animal modeling, these esoteric surgeries. You know. On the brain and central nervous system. And, um, then after that I went into, uh, clinical research. Um. Where they, uh, you know, begin to– Put the study drugs into humans. You know, phase one, phase two, phase three, phase four studies. And then I– I finished my career in that area. You know, in– in human research. And then, and then I got into– keep smilin’ like that, yeah, “Go on, go on!” [laughing] “We have more tape!” Ah. [laughing] Um. [clears throat] I started writing articles on the South Branch, and I wrote it for the South Branch Watershed Association which is now part of the Raritan Headwaters. And so I wrote two or three articles. Rean Nesser was in charge at that time. And then one day after ice out, I’m paddlin’ on the river by myself, there’s these thick icebergs piled up on the– the shore and everything. And I figured, you know, well, nobody’s gonna be out there and I’m all by myself and– Well wouldn’t you know, the mayor and the editor of the paper come by. And they see this guy out there paddlin’ among the icebergs and they take the picture. And they put it on the front page of the paper. And I’m at work and my wife calls up and says, uh, “You made the front page of the paper!” And I said, “Me? Are you sure it’s me?!” And she says, “Yeah, yeah, yeah!” “What am I doin’?” “You’re just paddling!” So. The– the caption was, uh, you know, “Intrepid paddler” blah blah blah. Um, anyway, I got in touch with the editor and, uh, I started submitting articles. So now I have, you know, that’s how my column started in the, uh, in the Branchburg news. Like I said, it’s runnin’ something like fifteen years now, sixteen years. So at first he kinda bumped me for space. And then, you know, it– it became more like I was like the mainstay. And, uh, you know. Lot of people told me, I– I meet people at some of these events. They told me that they really look forward to the Branchburg news just to read my article. Or they take my articles and they send them to their relatives, you know, in Ohio or, or wherever. So, um, you know. That’s– That’s my basis of operations. And then Heather picked my blog up. And, uh, the, uh, Upper Raritan is supposed to pick it up, I don’t know if they have yet. But, uh, it’s gettin’ around, that’s the basis for the book. So we’ll see. Hopefully that’ll happen.
Joe, thank you so much for your time today.
Yeah. Thank you for ending this [laughs].
Of course.
[End of Second Recording]
[Beginning of Third Recording]
[00:00:00]
[inaudible] Yeah, it’s just between two guys and a trail’a, eleven years ago.
[laughs]
Um. [inaudible whispers] Yeah, I– I– I guess the thing that keeps comin’ back is a recurring theme, is just trying to raise the awareness of the value of the North Shore Area of Raritan Bay and the lower Raritan River. Um, again, it just, you know, if you’ve got a soils person, Stephanie someth– Murphy, I think’s in charge of the soils department here. I would love to contact her and have her, you know, take a look at– I’ll mention her to Heather. Um, but it’s just such a unique area, again, because of the soil type and– and the variety of life that– that arises from the soils. And again, when you go back to, you know, considerin’ [unclear] roamin’ around over there. And a lot of the endangered species that it supported. If nothing else, I just want to, you know, raise that awareness. You know. And, and, when you start to think about that, it’s like, “Well okay, where does the water come from in the lower Raritan?” “Oh! It comes from,” you know, “up north. It comes from the north branch. South branch. It comes from all the little,” you know, “springs and seeps that, without names, that feed into the branches up there.” So it’s a, you know. It– it– it commands that you look at the entire Raritan River basin and everything that it touches. But, you know, there’s so much value there. I– I just wish it would become a ma– a major nature destination. I’d like to see that damn asphalt plant go away and whatever else they have over there disappear. And have that entire area as a, you know, some sort of a preserve. So. You can cut me off now. Hopefully I don’t have a ticket.
[End of third recording]