New Brunswick resident Eric Pereira grew up in a large, close-knit family near Howell, New Jersey. Eric caused a fatal car crash, which led him to serve six years in prison. He discusses his experiences with the legal system as a young person. While incarcerated, Eric took advantage of the NJSTEP program, which he now works for after he was released.
“It was like a nightmare that was true and you’re just, like, living it, but you don’t really know how to live it, you know what I mean? You just deal with it.”
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TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by John Keller
New Brunswick, New Jersey
October 25, 2019
Transcription by Ryan Neely
0:00:00.0
This is John Keller with coLAB Arts. It is October 25th, 2019. Um, we are located today, uh, at, uh, in the community space of First Reformed Church in New Brunswick, New Jersey and we’re interviewing today–
Eric Pereira.
Great, Eric, could you spell your name for me?
Sure, E-R-I-C. And last name, Pereira: P-E-R-E-I-R-A.
Great. Um, and what town do you currently reside in?
I currently reside in New Brunswick.
Okay. So, uh, Eric, as I mentioned, we’ll just basically start at the beginning, where were you born?
I was born in Center State Hospital, Freehold, New Jersey.
Okay, and what year?
June 6th, 1990.
Okay.
6/6.
Um, when you were born, what was your, uh, family structure like?
Um, Mom, Dad, I was the first, and then later on, after I was born, I had my, my younger sister. So the four of us. And I have, um, large family, like, extended family, like, I had at that time all four grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, big family.
So, uh, when you were, uh, a kid, um, did your family live in a house, were they in an apartment?
No, house, yeah, a townhouse and then a house.
Um, what are some of your earliest memories as a kid?
Um, well, so my parents are divorced, so some of my earliest memories of when they were not divorced. Um, lotta sports, lotta family. I guess, like, pretty standard, like, good, good upbringing, no complaints. You know–
You got along with your siblings?
Yeah, my sister? Yea, I mean, you know, I torture her a little bit, but we go along.
So what kinda– so, uh, as a kid you mentioned sports, were you doing a lot of activities like that?
Yeah, I was always into sports, I mean, my dad was and then I guess naturally I was, my family was. Um, I like, I liked– I played baseball and football and basketball, I liked to watch them, yeah. Like, my mom always reminds me that, “I took you to all your practices, and went to your games,” and you know. So it’s like, you don’t– there’s so much of what you remember that you don’t remember, until you’re reminded, do you know what I mean? So those are just random things that she tells me a lot, so it’s kind of like what pops out.
0:02:29.4
Are there any other things that you’re, like, you get reminded of?
Um, I guess when I see old pictures like, just like, holidays and family events, you know. My– my grandma moved recently and, like, um, my dad’s side a little bigger family, he’s one of nine, so that was like– huge family, at every family event ever was at that house. So like she, she recently moved, so we like, went through everything, you know what I mean? So like, we went through old pictures of you know, a lot of holiday stuff.
And that was your dad’s sister?
That’s my dad’s mom.
Dad’s mom.
My grandparents' house, yeah, yeah. My grandfather died, um, right before I came home actually, from the halfway house. So he passed away– she’d wanted to move prior to that and then, um, very old school, conservative like– I don’t wanna say conservative– very old school couple, like, he worked and they had nine kids and she babysat and gardened and cooked every meal all day every day. Like, it’s very like, old school, um, but like, you know, she babysat me when I was a kid so it’s like all nine kids and like, almost all 15, 16 grandkids grew up in that house and every single holiday and then every time– you know, now some family lives out of state– anytime anyone would come in like, that’s always the meeting point, so like, it was a big deal when she moved, I’m still a little bitter about. (chuckles) .
Uh, were you grandparents from that area originally?
No, so all four of my grandparents, um, are from New York. Three of the four are from the Bronx, and my– one from Brooklyn. So it’s pretty ironic my grand– my dad’s– both my dad’s parents and then– my mom’s mom are from the Bronx. So they kind of lived somewhat close to each other without knowing each other when they were young and then they all transplanted to Howell. All 4– well, they, they each got, you know, together and then eventually moved to Howell in, I don’t know, the 60’s? Both of them. And they moved a– like a block away from each other, and then my mom, so my mom and dad met in high school and they lived, like, around the corner from each other.
0:04:42.1
Um, so the– so that was, so those were your, uh, your dad’s parents? And then your mom’s parents, you said, were still living in the same neighborhood? Or did you have a relationship with them?
Yeah, no I’m very close with them as well. They lived– and so, I’m– I’m from Jackson, so Howell’s next town over. So that’s where like my gr– my family, you know, most of my family grew up in Howell, then my parents, eventually when they had me, were living in Jackson. Um, so both sets of my grandparents lived in Howell, like a block away from each other so, I did– you know, I was very close with both my mom’s parents too, still are.
So but, when you were born, you said– you mentioned you lived in Freehold but then–
No, I was just born at the hospital.
You were born at the hospital in Freehold, then you lived in–
Lived in Jackson. Yeah–
Jackson. Um, and, uh, so when you were, uh, growing up, um, the– do you remember like when you started, you know, school? Like, you know, what was that, what that experience was like, first started going to school?
Um, a little bit. So I remember, um, pre-school, my grandma watched– babysat me as I said. Both my parents worked, so that was in Howell, so I went to, like, a church preschool. Um, I was a little nerdy in school. I like, I think I liked it, but I was, I was very tentative I guess– attentive to school, yeah. And then I went, I remember switching to Jackson schools, like 1st grade. Um, yeah no I liked school. I was definitely a little nerdy.
Um, how would you describe nerdy?
Mmm, I mean– It’s weird because now I’m like, I, I feel like I’m much better socially now. Like everyone just assumes that I’m like, was always like– people assume that if you’re very good socially that you always were. And like, I always have to correct them, like, “You know I used to be a nerd and not that good socially.” It’s just, I’ve just adapted like, you know, I like people, and I like interacting with people, and I’ve, like, learned how to do it better, you know what I mean? And like, I feel like people today are– not peop– I don’t want to say people today. A lot of people are just either, I feel like in today’s era, I guess you could say the culture currently, I feel like people are like, try to be anti-social or proud of it, or just like, think there’s this huge gap between people who are social and who aren’t. And I’m not saying there isn’t, but I’m also saying like, it’s something that can be acquired. It’s like I– I guess comparative to now I was not as social, and I was more, um, guarded, but like the most that, like, my social expression was was through academics, like in class, like, you know, answering a question a teacher had versus like, you know, being the cool kid. Because I definitely wasn’t, you know, I’m not a jock. Now I probably would’ve– I would’ve been, but not then.
0:07:45.2
Did you, uh, did you have, uh, uh, kind of a network of friends at school? Or did you hang out with kids in the neighborhood or–
Yeah, no, I– I still had friends; I guess a good amount through sports, cause I played sports. So no I still had friends, um– yeah it was, it was a little– I did– so I did have friends, but as far the neighborhood, I moved a lot. Cause, um, when, when I was born my parents lived in a townhouse and then, when I was maybe like 5 or 6 they bought a house, and then I had neighborhood friends there I used to play basketball with and hang out with after school. Um, and then they got divorced, so then eventually they lost the house and my mom moved back to a townhouse, and then my dad eventually got laid off and then we moved in with my grandparents. So that house that I was telling you about, I also lived there, um, after my dad got laid off, besides from growing up there as babysitting and then all the holidays and events.
What kind of work did your dad do?
My dad does I.T. work, um, he– he doesn’t have a degree, a degree from college, but he has a like, he had like a I.T. certificate like, he went to like an I.T. school back in the day. So he does, um, this is hard to describe, I mean it’s not hard to describe it if you know what it is (chuckles). Um, he does, I think he runs like the servers and he fixes all the– like he runs the show with the company, like the computers, like the network and the servers and, like, if anything goes wrong, like, he installs it and he’s, I don’t know– He’s like a main I.T. guy at, like, not like a huge place, but–
What was your, um, what was your– your thoughts and feelings around when your– when your parents get divorced?
Yeah, that was rough. That was rough, man. I still, I still think– I mean I still, like, feel for, like, I’ve had other members of my family, you know, now it’s so common when, like, I was that age, like, I can relate, you know what I mean? Um, it was tough for me cause I loved the family, I loved the– we were happy, you know what I mean? Like, the four of us, my sister, my dad, and my mom. But, so a big part of this is that I’ll reveal is that my mom developed schizophrenia at that time, and that was a big reason that they wound up getting divorced. She was, so she was a teacher, um, and usually schizophrenia, most commonly I believe onsets in like early 20s or late teens. So she was in her mid 30s I believe. Like she had already been, you know, she had a degree, she taught at Marlboro High School for, at the time, almost, I guess at least fifteen years. So she was like, you know, a full-fledged adult with kids and a job and then just onset, schizophrenia. Um, so, it was rough dealing with that and then like, they would argue and, like, I didn’t even get answers as to how everything went down ‘til I was older ‘cause at the time I was like 8 or 9. They like, it was like 7 or 8, she moved out, they split up, and then eventually, you know, then officially got divorced. Um, like I always thought as a kid, like, my dad couldn’t handle it and, like, I don’t wanna say abandoned her, but it was really like, kind of the opposite. Like she kind of got in her mind, like, schizophrenically, like, like, bad energy I guess? I don’t know how to describe it from him, and like she kinda pushed away.
0:11:10.8
But they used to argue a lot, like everything was good and then like, when she onset with this like, everything turned bad. So a lot of arguing, a lot of like, my mom would, like, write notes and I would like, just random notes about random thoughts, she was schizophrenic and then like I would have to, I would like steal them and give them to my dad. Like, it was weird. Yeah, it was weird, it was rough. Definitely– definitely, like, looking back had an effect on like, at least at the time dealing with it, you know what I mean?
Mm. Um, so when your, your parents split, so then your– your mom moved out, so you stayed with your dad?
No, so, we– they had joint custody. So it was weird, like, my mom, the onset of schizophrenia, but, in the beginning she was medicated, and while medicated she was like, you know, a good 85-90% of her former self, I guess. Somewhere around those percentage, like a high percentage. ‘Cause like when it first happened, um, you know there’s always like a denial, but I guess in beginning ‘cause they were still married and then like, you know, my mom’s family was involved, like, they found the right doctor who, like, could see through, ‘cause the thing is with schizophrenia, like my mom’s very intelligent, so, like, her ability and she’s, like, strong-willed so like, even to this day, like, she’s been able to, like, still somewhat function, like, in this society while being, like, schizophrenic. But at that time she was actually taking her medicine. Like it was treated best it could, like, it’s gotten gradually a lot worse now, but gradually worse, so at the time– so to answer your question, they had joint custody. So I literally went like a week with my mom then a week with my dad. Back and forth, pack a bag, back and forth. Both in Jackson.
Mm.
Until my dad got laid off and then he, then it was Howell. And then it was like, yeah, back and forth–
To your grandparents house.
My–
To your grand– you–
To my grand– yeah, the house that they moved from, yeah.
Um, what was school like in– in terms of like, you know, you were talking, so you were like 7, 8, 9?
Yeah–
When that, when that kind of period of time was happening–
Yeah–
Um, were there, in school was there any kind of like spec– were there any subject areas or any– did you have any specific interests in school other than sports or?
Um, I mean I guess. I don’t know at that age if I had interest or if I just liked doing good at school, like I just, you know, wanted to get A’s. Like I was a motivated student, I guess. Um, I had– I guess my– my mom taught like marketing in Co-op high school, so I guess like business a little bit, which I’ve gone the complete opposite of since. But I guess at the time business. Like, I was always very good at math, so I guess math. Which I’ve also gone the complete opposite of. Yeah.
0:13:59.5
Um, when you were, uh, as you were growing up, um, uh, kind of like getting, uh, out of that phase you said you had moved into, back to Howell, and then after then was there a period of time in which things kind of stabilized?
Um– I mean I guess, no. But for me psychologically yeah, like I guess I’m just, you know. I was good at adapting, like I guess this is it, like, deal with it. You know what I mean? But I was never passive, I was always active, like, my sister was more passive, like, with my mom having her disease and then, like, with us going back and forth, like I was very much like, you know if my mom was acting in a weird way, like, I would call her out on it and I’d be frustrated, or like if I was– I don’t know, I was just, I was more vocal and active. Like, I don’t wanna do this or this isn’t cool. But I guess like the still, the shitty part to the– like I guess I just dealt with, like, I guess I did a decent job dealing with it.
Um, so as you got older how long did you live in Howell?
Um, so my– well it was half in Howell, half in Jackson–
Right–
‘Cause I’m going week to week back and forth with joint custody. So my dad got laid off, we lived in Howell with him, so half the time. Then, I don’t know, maybe a year, a little– give or take a couple months, about a year, then he got a job outside of his field ‘cause he was overqualified– this was after 9/11. So he’s doing construction, like his body is beat up already, so he was doing construction, steady job with that, then he tried to buy a house in Jackson, so that was back in Jackson. Then he lost that job, then we went back with my grandparents for like eight, eight months maybe? And then he rented a house and then rented a different house and rented a different house in Jackson. So it was always in the same area but I moved a lot. Especially with my dad.
0:16:00.3
Um, and the– ironically enough I wound up working for a moving company aft– uh, like at the end of, before I got locked up I was doing it while I was in college, so I’m used to moving, I’m used to shifting, as, as much as it’s not fun, I guess I just got used to it.
Were you always in the same school system?
Yea, ironically, like, it was weird because they both worked so like, one week I lived with my mom with this house in Jackson, one week with my dad at any of those places, but, like, when I was younger, I had a babysitter, so like the address the bus picked me up was from her house. So that kept me in the same school, and then I was– when I was old enough to stay home alone after school, we used my mom’s address ‘cause that was more permanent and, like, yeah so I was always steady in school, yeah. That helped.
What was, uh, kind of moving into middle school like for you around this? Cause you’re– puberty and–
Um, I don’t remember too much of like a big shift in, from– I know it is a big shift, I just don’t remember too much of it from, like, elementary school to middle school. Maybe like cursing, I remember kids would curse more on the bus (chuckles). Like I’ve seen this in movies, but you know, I’m not around it all the time. I don’t really– I can’t, I don’t really know what else.
Did your interests shift at all?
Um– I don’t, I don’t really remember.
Do you ever–
Maybe, I mean, I– I guess, like– yeah, I mean I guess like I was more interested in girls, starting to, yeah, but other than that I mean, I guess I was, like– started getting a little more social. But I was still very, like, academically motivated I guess.
Um, and then, you know, so were you– I guess, you know, as you’re moving, as you’re kind of like growing up, was there any point at which, where you’re still moving back and forth, like a week here a week there, was there any point at which that stopped being the case or–
Yeah, the day I got my license (chuckles).
(chuckles)
Yea, the day I got my license I just looked at my dad, ‘cause my mom would gradually got worse, like gradually. What she would do is, it– it wasn’t like a steady thing, she would, like, at a certain time of year not take her medicine and then, she would, like, be a shell of herself and very schizophrenic and then start taking it again, and on and off. Um, so yeah, so it was frustrating living with her, I mean. But the hard part is, even to this day is that she’s always, like, very loving, you know what I mean? So it was like, never an absence of love and care, it was just like, it’s just frustrating, like being around her.
0:18:51.9
Like, you’ve never met her, but if– you know, if she was in the room, even a patient person like, after five or ten minutes you would be like, I don’t know what to do here. Like, I– I don’t know if I should leave or like, you know what I mean? It’s just very awkward in her thought process and things she does and like– when I was younger it would be like, you know, she would, part of her schizophrenia then was like driving around like, trying to find someone who didn’t exist. So like, she wouldn’t be home until late, and I’m like calling her after school, like, “Mom, hungry, what’s for dinner?” and da-da-da-da-da and just annoying her and then– I don’t know, she would– you know what I mean? Just little things like that, but it was never like an absence of love or care. Like, when I was incarcerated, which was a blessing and a curse– not me being incarcerated, that, that sucked– but she visited me every week, the whole time, my whole family did honestly. But it was– it was tough with her– I’m sh– I’m telling you this to index the love factor, but it was also tough because I had no control. Like in visits in prison you have to sit there, and you have to stay the whole time, and you can’t, like, get up. You can’t leave, you can’t terminate it. So like, she’d be very frustrating and like, I don’t have any power to, like, “Stop saying that,” or “I don’t wanna talk about this,” or like, “I’m leaving, I’ve had enough.” It was like, nope, sit there and suck it up for two hours, like no options so– it was rough a lot of the times, but always the love, you know what I mean? Which was like, makes it– it– it– I would prefer, I’d prefer it that way, but it does make it harder at times, you know what I mean? To deal with.
Did your relationship with your sister stay the same throughout the– the whole period?
Yeah, you know actually that’s an interesting question because me and my sister are so close. I actually had dinner with her last night. Um, she lives with my dad to this day, right now. She’s only three years younger, so she should get her own place, but she lives with my dad. Um, yeah, so my relationship with my sister at that– I don’t know, we’re only three years apart and we were always had a brother-sister relationship, but I guess like I needed like, I wanted to be away, you know what I mean? Like, this is when I had the desire to get more social and like, as I grew up and my home life was more frustrating, I, like, wanted to be with my friends, like I wanted to be away. So I guess, without me noticing it then, I kind of left her in the wake a bit. Like, she felt like that, and I didn’t really realize it.
0:21:18.3
Um, ‘cause, you know, I’m three years older than her, so when I got my license and moved in with my dad, she stayed– she still went back and forth and she was– I was 17 she was 14. So she still had to deal with my mom, I kinda didn’t as much. So I still saw my mom, like, you know, I still went there for dinner once or twice a week, but I didn’t live there, you know. I had my own car and I could do whatever I wanted, which is what I wanted, you know what I mean? To be able to do what I wanted. Um, and you know life with my dad, me and my dad are very close, um, but even then at the time, it was still rough, like he was going through divorce, he started dating someone right away. Which is part of the reason why I thought things happened differently, but it was kind of his, like, just trying to cope with losing my mom, ‘cause they were like high school sweethearts, you know what I mean? And she got schizophrenia and then like, she kinda like didn’t want anything to do with him when it onset eventually. But for me that was hard, that’s another thing I left out, like, when he got a girlfriend, that shit hit me fucking hard. I was like, “What?!” Like, I still wanted the four of us to go to dinner for my birthday and like, now you’re dating this women, like, fuck her, like, I– I just hated her and her kids, and they were nice to me, but just because of what they represented, you know what I mean? I was very, like, against it.
So like, even though I’m close with him now and that– you know, I think we were very close when I grew up, that middle patch, like I guess I was distant from both my parents a little bit. And then yeah, I kinda did, um, my sister, I– I feel like I did, or she definitely feels like I did leave her a little bit in the wind as far as like– she was more– so, she was less social than me and still is. She was very much like watching, they didn’t have Netflix then, so she would watch, like, the DVD, like, the seasons of a show, you know what I mean? Like, she would just TV and eat snacks and like, that’s all she did, like. Me, I was like, “I wanna get the fuck outta here. I wanna hang out with my friends, like, I wanna play sports.” Like, I was active– socially, but also active in, like, dealing with things, like. Where she was more passive, like, she was like, “I’m just gonna sit and watch TV and I don’t, I don’t have that many friends and I don’t need to like go out and like, leave this,” but still, she didn’t enjoy it, you know? So yeah, once I got my license– whereas the– you know, looking back I could’ve drove her around more, I could’ve, like, asked what she wanted to do, help her get out, you know, the house with my mom and I think I was more like, I worked, so I was busy with the work and then–
0:23:47.1
What kind of work were you doing?
Um, I think at that time I was just delivering pizza. Yeah. Delivering pizza. So, like, after school, deliver pizza three to four days a week and then, you know, I had to have my car– I was, like, hanging out with my friends all the time.
What kind of stuff would you do?
Uh, well we’re from Jackson, there’s not much to do, we just smoked pot, drive around, get food. That’s about it, there’s not that much to do. We would explore a little, my friends, like, we would go to different places once we could drive, like. I always– this is when I started becoming more social where, like, I would have to organize events like, “Oh, let’s go on this road trip. Let’s go to this sporting event. Let’s go do this, let’s go to the city, like.” Jackson, like, people just stay there, so.
Um, were you, when you were in high school were you– was there any expectation or were you giving any thought to what your plan would be when your, when high school was over? Like, what you would do next?
Yeah, it was like– This is like such a difference I had noticed being in prison, like, that I can consciously say, like. It was never even a th– a afterthought, like, I was going to college, like, that wasn’t even a question. I probably knew I was going to college since I knew what college was. Um, yeah, so college– I mean, I guess at that time it was just like business. Like, I didn’t even have a specific like, “Oh, business.” Like, my mom teaches marketing, like I have a– still think I have a decent, like, mindset for business when I want it to be. You know what I mean? Which I don’t want it to be. Um, but yeah, it was just business, I guess. Like I took, you know, honors-level courses in high school and I got good grades and then, like, the social part kind of, a little bit surpassed the academic, like when I got my license, so then it was like, I was gonna take AP classes and then I’m like, “Eh– I’d rather take honors classes and get a easy A and, like, party.” You know what I mean? Versus like, yeah.
0:25:54.1
So, wh– how would you classify, like, the– the point at which you got into trouble?
Um, like for what I went to prison for?
Yeah.
Um, so that was– so that was after high school, I went to community college for two years and got my associates degree, but I tried like hell to get the fuck out of New Jersey. I couldn’t get a loan. I got into Maryland, Penn State, Ohio State. I committed to Maryland, but I couldn’t get a loan. My parents didn’t have credit, neither of them owned their house. Um, my dad was always renting, and my mom didn’t have any equity, like the townhouse. Couldn’t get a loan, so I was frustrated, like I just wanted to go away and party and have fun and like, I knew I woulda still did– got good grades. So I wound up not being able to do that. Community College, got my associates degree.
Wh– What school did you go to?
Ocean County. Yeah. And then I still wanted to go away, and I got into schools again, now I’m like, “Alright, I want to go to, like, a nice place.” Like Florida State, San Diego State. Got in, couldn’t get a loan again. Convinced two of my friends to move to Miami, so I can get in-state tuition to then go to Florida State. It’s like 3 grand in State, it’s like community college here. Versus like Rutgers is like, you know, 15 plus room and board. Their out of state, you know, is like the same, but in state it’s like 3. So I– I got my two friends to drive all the way to Miami and we’re gonna live there and it didn’t work out, so we just made a vacation out of it, long story short. But um, yeah, so then eventually I’m like, “Alright, fuck it.” I was in the STARS program so community college was free, Rutgers is like half off and I’m like, “Alright, fuck it.” Like, I’m not gonna not go to college. Um, drove back– this was in like August before. So I started Rutgers, and the last thing I want to do in my life was commute and not live– I wanted the college experience so bad. Like, since high school, I’m like, I just want freedom away from, you know, my parents, but also socially and just, you know, to enjoy myself.
Um, so then yeah, so I commuted the first semester at Rutgers and then I looked for a room in a house– it was random people, I didn’t give a shit, they were, like, down with partying and smoking and I’m like, “Alright, sign me up. Like, fuck it.” So I moved in there. So timeline, I did two years after high school, associates, first semester commuting at Rutgers, you know my 3rd year of college. Now I move in in January. Um, and then I guess if you want to throw in, I had a serious girlfriend from the end of high school ‘til like right when I moved into Rutgers. We broke up like that summer and then back together. Um, so that was, that was a big part of my life too at that time.
0:28:33.1
Um, yeah so then (sighs in thought), January, February– yeah my first semester finally living at University is when my accident happened so, and it’s– it’s not unrelated to college, but I wasn’t, like, at college when it happened. So like, I’ve moved in and then I was like, “Alright, I’ve finally got what I wanted,” like, everyone in my house was cool as hell, we’re still friends to this day, they came to visit me the whole time I was in prison, like, not some partying friends that you don’t care about, like good people, you know what I mean? But we did party. Um, so my accident was I was working for my uncle who’s a photographer still to this day. He– he does, like, weddings and bar mitzvahs and sweet sixteens and stuff like that. Um, so I was working with him, I was just like his assistant, I would help him carry shit in, set up the lights, you know, just assist with like the reflector and the light and– and just setting shit up and helping him– he goes all out. Like, he does a wedding, like he sh– the wedding’s at 5 o clock, he’s showing up, like, 10am, like, taking a picture of the bride getting dressed and, like, you know, everything, so, I was working with him. It was a Saturday, while I was living at Rutgers, first semester living there. Um, I had been living there a couple months now, and I think we had just gone on– I forget actually, what happened first, but.
So um, yeah, so I was working with him at a wedding in, like, the tip of North Jersey and so we got there early, this was a Saturday. I’d probably gone out Friday night, so I was probably tired. Worked all day, the wedding didn’t end ‘til like probably after midnight. So I was working with him all day and then cocktail hour is like my break, working, like, I’m dressed up, like I fit in with the wedding. Big, fancy, rich wedding. So, cocktail hour’s like my break time, like, I’m, you know, pigging out. They got, like, lobster fucking tails at cocktail hour, you know what I mean? So I’m pigging out and then this is where I guess like, what was normal to me, like, living in college partying, like, I had a few drinks, like, alcoholic beverages. I was 20 years old, not 21. I think I had, total I had four I believe, Jack and Cokes, by cocktail hour I had like two or three and then I had one more after. And I had planned on working ‘til like about midnight and this was at like 6 o’ clock. And then, my uncle had left, it was a big wedding so you had, like, two other photographers, plus me. So he had left, ‘cause most of the pictures that he takes that he needs are before the party actually. Um, so then I’m working, like, the two other guys that are his assistants I’m working with, like, you know. None of– none of them knew I was drinking at all.
0:31:12.7
Um, but you know they were like, you know how people are when you’re in college, they like, you know, they miss it. Everyone loves fucking college, so like, “Ah, you know, you can leave early, you been working all day, we know you got, you know, you’re probably gonna go party tonight.” Like, you know, they’re fucking jealous, but they were cool, they let me leave early, so, like, without even thinking about it, like, I got in my car and drove home. Um, I a– I always pin this like, I always take, extract everything from the accident that I caused on the way home as me being irresponsible. Um, so I’m not one of those like, I’m not in recovery, I wasn’t an alcoholic, I don’t blame alcohol for what I did, and I honestly wasn’t that drunk. Um, not that that matters. Like, I’ll blame it on, I take full responsibility as, like, me being irresponsible, not like blaming the alcohol or whatever. I was tired, I had just eaten a lot of food, I had worked all day, and I had a few drinks, and, like, I know how my body works and I– that really was a learning experience that, like, when I drink and eat, like, I just get fucking tired, like, it hits me. So I had a two hour drive home, um, so I dr– I made an hour and a half driving home and then I fell asleep on the parkway in my car and I hit another car and I caused an accident, and the person, the driver of the car that I hit died.
Um, so yeah, so that’s– that’s number one for big event in my life. Um, and I didn’t even see it happen and the schematics, I don’t even know if I could ex– I don’t even know if I know the schematics. Like, when I woke up, my car was on the shoulder of the parkway and my car wasn’t even fucked up. Like, my– my front passenger side was dented in a little bit. I didn’t have a scratch on me. I woke up, I got out and I didn’t see the accident near me. Like, I didn’t– it’s not like the car was right next to me, you know what I mean? I didn’t know what the fuck happened, and I had never really gotten in trouble before. Like I got arrested for smoking pot at a concert, you know what I mean? Like, I never got, like, I never went to jail before anything, and, like, no one in my family ever has, so I’m like, “Holy shit, I’m gonna get a DUI.” I was panicking, you know what I mean? And then, you know, the cops came, my car wouldn’t start, the cops came. They did blood work and then like, they kept me overnight. And my mom actually picked me up in the morning, and they didn’t even fucking tell me anything. And– so I still didn’t know there was an accident caused. Like, I think I fell asleep and I hit the g– and I hit the guardrail, you know what I mean? And my mom picked me up in the morning, she was crying, she was like, “You know, Eric, someone died.” I’m like, “What?”
0:33:43.3
You know what I mean? So that was, I’ll never forget that. And like, I did Project P.R.I.D.E. in prison.
[Editor’s note: P.R.I.D.E. stands for Promoting Responsibility in Drug Education. It’s a program in some NJ prisons where inmates can share with students their experiences with drugs and/or alcohol that led them to prison.]
So I got told this story, like, a lot of times, so. Just for a little context, but um, yeah so my mom was crying. I went back in there and I’m like, “There was an accident? Someone died? Like, wh– what the fuck? What happened?” And they, like, didn’t really want to tell me shit. I’m like, “Are you fucking kidding me?” Like, that was rough man. I mean, you know, I can’t– you know what I mean? Like, a lotta people– I– I feel like the law is something that’s like, made for people who don’t care, you know what I mean? Which isn’t true. Like, maybe not everyone cares, but like, I mean there’s nothing they could of did to punish me more than me knowing what I caused, you know what I mean? Like, they could’ve killed me, or gave me no time, or, uh, my life, you know what I mean? Like, in prison. So that was fucking rough, like, that was a huge event, like, going home, seeing my dad, like, crying, giving him a hug. My sister, then like both sides of my family, you know what I mean? Like, the first time I saw all of them like, just like crying and hugging. You know, they weren’t even, like, mad at me they were just sad, ‘cause they know, like, I would never do that on purpose, you know what I mean? It was just some very irresponsible thing, you know what I mean? But, um, yea, so that’s– obviously that’s a huge event, um, and then, like, the timeline after that was just weird. It was like, h– I was on bail for fourteen months, so I was still, like, this was a Saturday night, so like, I was with my family Sunday, I think Monday, and then I, like, went back to class, or to school that, later that week and, like, my roommates were like, you know, very sensitive to what happened. Um, my friends, but it was like, you know, I remember being in class, like that week like, “What the fuck, man? Like, I’m ‘bout to go to jail for like ten years,” I thought. Oh– I met, we met with lawyers that Monday and like, I’ve never talked to a lawyer in my fucking life and they’re like, “Yeah you might do ten years.” I’m like, “Are you fucking kidding me?” Like, I’m gonna go to jail for ten years, like– wh– I don’t– I don’t even know how you handle that. Like, I wasn’t, like, depressed, I was just, like, shocked, you know what I mean? It was like a nightmare that was true and you’re just like living it, but you don’t really know how to live it, you know what I mean? You just deal with it.
0:36:07.9
Um, but yeah so I was on bail for fourteen months, so like, I guess I was decently good at, like, dealing with shit that I, like, didn’t prefer to deal with, I guess, with my parents, so I just like– I don’t know, my– I– I feel like my dad and then my– my mom’s mom who’s like, kinda like my mother, kinda like filled in to be my mom. Like, very mentally strong people so I was just like, “You know what, I’m gonna live my life and do the best I can and like, I’m not gonna worry about how much prison’s gonna suck or how long I’m gonna be there.” Like, I can’t control it so I’m just gonna, you know, live my life. So I– I think I did actually a good job of, like, dealing with what was coming for me, um, in the time leading up to prison and even while I was in prison, I was a very positive person in prison. Um, which is kind of what led me to this, but, um, but like after it happened another thing, like, I wanted to go to the funeral, and like the first time I’m with the lawyer, they’re like, “Absolutely not.” I’m like, “Why not?” They’re like, “You can’t go to the funeral. Do not go to the funeral.” Like, I called– actually, so two other people in the van of the person that died were injured, so I called the hospital to see, like, just an update and they, you know, they don’t really tell medical shit, but they were both released that day, so like I knew they were okay. And like, I wanted to go to the funeral, and they’re just like, no. Like, I kinda wanted to go anyway I’m like, “No one knows, like, who I am.” I guess like my– I don’t think– I don’t know that my picture was in the paper like the next– I don’t know. But, I didn’t go and like honestly, one of the f– another frustrating thing about the legal system is like, besides the fact that they don’t, like, recognize that like, like, it’s designed for people who don’t give a shit, you know what I mean? If they do something wrong. It’s also like there’s no aiding, like, I– you know I’ve read up on restorative justice and like there’s no aiding in like a connection with the person who did something wrong and the victim’s family, like. I’m not allowed to, like, contact them, I wasn’t allowed to like, like, I can’t– you know what I mean? Like nothing, like there was one moment in court before I went in where I, like, was able to speak to them and like, you know, they called me a murderer, you know?
0:38:26.1
But like I– you know, I would– that was the one time where they were like, “Apologize,” but, it’s not like– there’s distance, you know? Um, yeah so I was on bail for fourteen months and like in between the hardest where like, you know, court dates, skip class, family takes off, go to court, sucks. Really hits you what’s gonna happen and then like go back to college and like, just try to live, you know what I mean? But I ke– I was always close to my family so– I guess it fizzled out a bit once I hit, like, maybe community college, at least when I got my license, like my relationship improved a lot with my dad. Like, me and my dad are close. I guess it was just when they first got divorced and then he was laid off and then he had a girlfriend, like, there was distance. But after that they broke up and, like, he eventually got a job, little more steady, but we were close again. So like, I always came home a lot on the weekends and, like, I always go to all my family events, both sides of my family, so. During those fourteen months I spent a lot of time with my family, but I also, you know, I was like shocked for the first couple months and then, you know, I was still at college and I was like having to deal with it and like, I did stop partying and, like, I never drove. I would never drive drunk again in my life, like, with a gun to my head I wouldn’t do it, you know what I mean? But I did, at Rutgers here, walking distance, like I did start partying again. It was like, a weird, looking back on it, it’s like a weird fucking feeling, like, knowing you’re going to prison for a long time. It was like, it’s almost like you know the world’s gonna end so like, enjoy the present kind of thing. Um, especially because there was, like, nothing I was able to do to like, help reconcile. Like there’s just, there was just no ave– I mean also if there was, I didn’t know ‘em, I was 19– I was 20 years old, you know what I mean? But like there was no like, you know, here’s this avenue to release your, you know, how horrible you feel about this and like deal with it, it was just like, be mentally strong, feel horrible about it, can’t do anything, I’m going to jail in six ye–for six years, like, I’m gonna spend time with my family and then like enjoy my time at college.
0:40:42.3
So like my grades then dipped. Like, there was classes where I, um, I got a A on the midterm, but didn’t go the final. Like, ‘cause I did a whole ‘nother year. So, like, my second year at Rutgers, I remember, um, especially the– the end of the Spring semester was Manny and I went in June 15th, 2012. So, like, I had final exams like the first week of May, and I know I’m going to prison for six years in a fucking month. Like, everyone’s going out tonight, no, I gotta go to the library and study for my final tomorrow. No, fuck that, like– and I got A’s on the midterms, like, just didn’t go to the finals, so. But somehow, luckily, my GPA didn’t drop under 2, which is like the magic number for, like, academic probation. So fast-forward you know, four or five years after that when I’m in the halfway house from prison, I was able to come here and finish my degree smooth and transition without academic probation.
What was the, um, so the– the entire, kind of like, court process and also then sentencing project happened over the course of those fourteen months that you were, between the– the accident and when you actually started doing time?
Yes.
And then, how did you– was there, um, was there a trial and then a sentencing? Was there–
Nah it was pl– 95% of cases is plea bargain. Yeah, there was no trial. And so, yeah, so another thing with the process is like, to go along with like, how I described my mental state was just like dealing with it and doing the best I can and not worrying about how prison was gonna be, ‘cause I couldn’t change it. I had no experience with the law, no experience with lawyers, no experience on, like, how to fight it or what should happen or what I’m supposed to get. It was literally like a lawyer, like, I could sum up everything a lawyer and then I just went along with like, it’s second-degree violent crime, between five and ten years and then the first plea offer from the prosecutor was eight and the guy’s like, my lawyers like, “I can get you a seven.” And we picked the lawyer because he was like rated good online, which is the dumbest fucking thing, like, you pick a lawyer who’s like up and coming who’s gonna fight for you, not some rich, piece of shit who just best friends with– like, he told us he’s friends with the prosecutor and all this shit. I’m like, at the time it sells you when you don’t know shit, but you’re like, “That’s horrible.”
0:43:08.1
I want you to hate that motherfucker and get me– you know what I mean? But we didn’t know and like, I didn’t even, I was just like, I don’t– I can’t control this, like, I did something horrible, like, whatever they tell me I gotta do I’m gonna do. Like I– I almost felt, like, morally wrong to, like, fight it. Um, so yeah, so the first plea offer was eight with 85– 85% is like violent crime. So you have to do 85% of your sentence, whatever your number is, mandatory, no matter how good your behavior is. So, and he was like, “I can get it down to seven.” And my dad’s like, “What about six?” And he’s like, “I don’t think so, but I’ll try,” and then he’s like, a week later, “I couldn’t get it to six. Seven. Should we go to trial? If we go to trial, you risk getting more time,” da da da da da. “Okay we’ll take it.” It was literally, like, something that should’ve been hours of time and investment it was really just like, no one knew what to do, and he’s this lawyer’s telling us what it is and just like, I felt guilty and then I also wasn’t knowledgeable and was like, just had to be accepting so I’m just like, “Okay.” And I’m also 20, you know what I mean? Whereas, you know, being in prison with people who have experience with the law, they’re like, you know– it also depends on what county you’re in, this was Monmouth County. Like, there’s people who I’ve seen get a lot less time than me from different counties, there’s people who got more time. It’s a range. Um, do I think if I got like some up and coming dude who was gonna fight for me, it would’ve been cheaper and got me the minimum of five, or even there’s people who’ve gotten less than that, um, yeah. I mean like, I had no priors, I was a Rutgers student, like doing everything right in the eyes of the law, um.
But yeah, so the process was just like every month or couple months was like a random court hearing for I don’t even know what, and then, like, they set up dates and at first the date was gonna be in, like, January, so I wound up going a semester later, and they got me to do a semester later, so like, that’s why I didn’t do good on those final exams either. But yeah, then it was just like, I knew the date, June 15th and then, you know, school ended in May, I moved home, spent time with my family. Like, my friend– the last night before I went in like, all my f– like, all my family was in from out-of-state, I said goodbye to everyone individually, like, had a talk with them individually, went home late, all my friends were at my house, they all slept over. It was like thirty people, small house, they just all slept, like, on the floor, and I woke– my dad woke me up in the morning, I was tired as hell and I just like, I have to do this, like, showered, put on a suit, his suit, I didn’t have a suit, and just fucking– in the car it was me, him, my sister, and like a different girl that I was, like, kind of with, I guess at the time. And, like, my side of the courtroom, like, filled courtroom. Like, all my family and friends were there. And, like, I got to speak and then, this is my first public speech and then they got to speak. You know, they called me a murderer, it was rough to hear and for my family to hear. You know, they were crying. And then, boom, they put the cuffs on you and you go to, like, a back room and, like, that’s it.
0:46:23.1
Yeah. And actually the guy– there’s a guy who, his hearing was right after mine and he wound up being in, like, the same holding cell as me after– before he went to Monmouth County Jail. And he was like, he was, you know, he was– he’s some dude from the hood who, like, I wound up being friends with ‘cause he went to the same prison as me. He was like, “Yo man, like my mom was crying. She wants me to send you her love, like she felt bad for you.” And I’m just like, “Thanks.” You know what I mean? ‘Cause then you just– like, so much of prison, your recollection of, like, prison and jail is just, like, waiting in holding cells. Like, you’re just like a cold, shitty smelling, like, concrete room with, like, a metal bench that’s fucking uncomfortable, and you’re like tired and bored, and like this time I was in a suit, before they like make you change and shit. Yeah, and then the b– ball got rolling.
What was that first night like?
First night was in county jail. This is hilarious actually, I’m always hot, always hot, I always sweat. My girlfriend’s Columbian, she’s always cold, I’m always hot right now, and, like, throughout prison there’s no fucking air conditioning in almost all the places you’re at, so in the– in the summer you’re just baking, like, never wanted to kill myself so much, but ironically in the county jail it was fucking cold. They had a top bunk and the air conditioner was right there and, like, they only give you the jumpsuit, so like you can’t order like a sweatshirt– you didn’t order a sweatshirt yet and they give you one thing, like holey blanket and, like, I was actually cold. But, the first night, like, I wasn’t like, I had a good mindset, like, I was like, “I’m gonna be here for six years, like, I’m not gonna fuckin’,“ I’m gonna do my best to mitigate, like, the stress and, like, the outlook, like, I’m gonna be positive, I’m gonna– I was a social guy, I was coming from college. Like, this is what I tell people too culturally, ‘cause I love talking about, like, the culture of anything, but like prison too, it’s like, it’s like the fucking opposite of college. Like, college you’re social, like, my social really thrived, like, talking to everyone, like you’re the weird dude if you’re just quiet in the corner and prison, like, you’re not supposed to be social, you’re supposed to, like, keep to yourself until you like, everyone knows and respects–you know what I mean?
0:48:39.3
And like, I was social– I mean the first night was in county jail, which is what I’m talking about that was cold. It was a little weird, it was definitely a different scenery, being around different people. Um, but I don’t have any, like, horror story of, like, I cried, or like I got beat up or, you know, none of that. Um, I was only there a week and then I was in CRAF a week, which is, like, a assessment place in Trenton, which sucks. And then I went to prison like to m– to Annandale, Mountainview actually is the name of the prison. Which is how the program, yeah.
[Editor’s Note: CRAF stands for Central Reception and Assignment Facility. A processing facility for the NJ Prison System]
What was your– did you have familiarity with– with any of the places that you were going to before you were going through it?
No, not at all. You just hear rumors of what people in there say, like, “Ah, you’re the one in Annandale, it’s like, it looks like a college campus. I was there in the 80s, we used to have real clothes.” (chuckles) Like, “Cool, dude.” You know what I mean? But, um, yeah then you get there and it’s a dorm, like, intake’s a dorm so it’s just big, caged room with sixty-six people, thirty-three bunk beds and, like, I was social. And like it was, it wasn’t horrible, it was hot. You know, it was the summer, that was the worst part, the heat. It was weird, I was cold in one– couple days, and then from there on out, I was never cold again. Um, but yeah, like I– I– you know, you learn how to jail, is the term. You learn how to navigate, like, you eventually learn not to just be friendly to everyone ‘cause that’s not fucking advantageous but, I w– I– overall, like, I was very positive in there, like, you know. I was one of the only people who wasn’t in a gang, who didn’t want to join a gang, who didn’t want to conform to any type of like– Like I was the only person in the dorm who wore my flip flops around. And, like, if you’re in a gang, you have to wear your sneakers to the shower, get in the shower, then take your sneakers off, because like if– the theory is, like, if there’s a fight, like, you have to be ready, and I’m just like fuck that.
0:50:45.5
I’m like, I’m gonna be here for six years, I’m not walking around scared, like, if I have to get in a fight, I– I’m gonna take– I’m barefoot, like, I don’t give a shit, like, I’m not, I was the only one who walked around like– and I wound up getting along with everyone, like, I was, you know, you’re the first time that someone who’s not of color being a minority. Um, in that big dorm, not the first intake one, but the other big dorm I lived in for a couple months in Annandale, first like six to eight months, I was one of only like two or three you know, non person of color, um, different gangs, and you know, there’s even a white racist gang, which was like, would’ve been the last one I fucking joined. Um, but they tried and like, I just, I got along with everyone, you know what I mean? Like most people in– most people from urban areas, their– their view of the white people that they’ve met were like either they sold drugs too, so like, you know, a drug fiend or they were cops. And I was just like a college kid, you know what I mean?
I was just myself, like, I didn’t give a shit. I was– you know, I always tell people like if– one thing you learn, like, you know that I wasn’t always social and you learn is like just being genuine, like, people normally respect you when you’re genuine. So I was just myself and like, you know, I love sports, so sports is decently liked in the youth places more the adult places, like I would’ve really thrived with sports, you know what I mean? ‘Cause I love sports, but I play sports too so, like, I played basketball with everyone, like, I worked out. I got a decent job in there, that helps you stay busy, I wound up reading a lot of fucking books, and then that’s how I came to the program, um, when I first got there I had just been in college for four years and I was, you know, going to school the rest of my life before that, so it’s like the first time I’m not in school and I’m like, you know what, we’re here with all this time, and, like, my goal was, like, be positive and, like, take advantage of the time. Like, I was really, like, thinking like, you know, if I could fast forward this whole thing, would I want to do it? I’m like, as much as that’d be great to do, I wanna, I wanna– I want to say no because it’s six years of my life, like you only live once, like, you know? These are still my 20s even though it sucks that I’m in prison, but like I wanna make use of it, you know what I mean? I don’t wanna just hit a button and, you know, fast forward.
0:53:11.6
So I was like– at that time, which is what I did my research on. Like my first thought was like, the best way to make use of this time for me, and what I projected on everyone else, which is very unfair at the time, but, like, would be college. You know what I mean, like? If everyone could just be in here and take college classes, like, wouldn’t this be fucking great, you know what I mean? And then NJSTEP comes along, like right at that time, 2012, and in the prison that I was in– in Mountainview, and still to this day, they only offer Associate's-level courses, and I already had my AA, so, like, I jumped on it and I took classes the whole time and I helped other people do it and I was very involved, but like, it didn’t add to my degree. You know, I didn’t get one step closer to my Bachelors. I went in with 101 credits, my bad, I’m from Rutgers. But, like, I loved it, like, I took classes that I hadn’t took before and, like, just stimulating my mind, you know what I mean? Talking to professors, like, it was very normal for me, like, to be in a classroom and read and talk about it and like I was, you know, I did the readings this time, you know what I mean? And like–
Did you have when you, um, uh, when you went in you were, but you had completed four years, and that’s–
Yeah–
Four years of college. You didn’t have enough credits to graduate yet?
No, so I– I– when you transfer, even if you get to sixty credits, you don’t have, like, it still takes, unless you, like, really pile it on, it’s still like you need a little extra, like, a extra semester, at least. But I also wound up failing classes ‘cause I didn’t go to the final. And I was going to prison, and I didn’t know my major, like I transferred pre-business. And then also a big shift in my life which I skipped over, like– I don’t know if it bef– right before my accident or right after, but either way, academically I had this professor who I still talk to now, not the one who taught the class I was telling you. Um, I think the first class I took with him was like environment and culture and, like, I just loved the discussion, like it was interesting shit, and we would talk about it and he was the fucking man, and I took like every class he taught. Like three semesters in a row I took a class with him and like, I was like, still like partying and just showing up without doing reading, and getting A’s and B’s without, like, you know, diving in, but it was still interesting class discussions, like, I loved it, but still wasn’t dedicated. But I was like, I just wanna major in whatever the fuck this guy’s teaching and, like, I didn’t know if it was– he taught some EPIB classes, which is Environmental Policy Institution Behavior, but really he was a, um, environmental anthropologist so it was really cul– it was cultural anthropology. But he had like, the environmental spin on it. Um, so I was like, I don’t even know if– I think I declared general anthropology, but then, like, I went in prison knowing, like, now I know, like, I want to do cultural anthropology. Um, so that’s also part of, you know, a couple of factors of why I didn’t graduate. But even if I went full throttle I don’t think I would’ve been able to graduate.
0:56:10.6
So then what was the– what did the– the kind of participating in the program at Mountainview, what did that give you? I mean– so it’s not directly adding to like degree cr– degree credits for you in order to complete your degree, but what was the– how did it help you?
Yeah. Well, one is the normalcy, ‘cause I’m used to going to college and now I’m in prison. One’s the normalcy, two, I thought it was– I always– you know, I originally thought before NJSTEP even came in there that, before I saw Chris and Don Roden, I was like, this would be the best thing, like, for me and for everyone else. Like, which isn’t fair for me to put on everyone else, but like, I already thought that and then it magically came and I’m like, this is perfect, like, this is what I wanted, this is what I believe in, like, this is it. And then you know, once it– once you flip to the social science it’s like, you know, you go to college to learn how to think, not because you’re getting a– you’re definitely not getting a job promise after. So it was like, you know, I can keep my brain sharp, like, current. And it was, like, just the spaces I want to be around, in the classroom having discussions, like, just seeing a professor like– when you’re in prison, you’re only seeing other people in prison and the guards, so like, someone normal’s there, you’re like, it’s attraction, like, the professor, like. And then I got to take some classes that I– and I was reading at the time too, I got into reading. So like, some of the professors I could talk to about books, like get books–a lot of my book suggestions came from professors, I’ll just ask them and then they’ll print out like, the Google top 100 books, and I’d be like, “Oh, now I know what to read.” Check, check, check. And then like, I like this book, I like where you quoted that and I look in the back and then get that book sent in, you know what I mean? Like, it all flowed from that. But like, specifically these two philosophy classes that this professor taught, who, I have to– I have to meet up with, I haven’t met up with since I’ve been home. He’s, he’s busy. Community college level, but this guy’s the fucking man, um, Heppard, Ben Heppard, teaches for Raritan Valley Community College. Um, philosophy, I took philosophy of ethics and then, um, feminist philosophy. And that was like, the ultimate, like, discussion class. Like, read and, like, I could understand it, you know what I mean? And then discuss, and I would get to class early and, like, talk to him about books, and he would suggest this book and I would read it and talk to him about it and suggest another book and, like, I got a lot from that. And it was like, even though I’m not getting credits, like, I’m fucking learning.
0:58:35.5
But I also loved the sphere of people, like a lot of the people in classes were my friends. You know, we had similar mindsets, so it was like, these are pe– it was another way for me to see them if we didn’t live together and, like, another bonding and just pos– like there’s not a lot of positive, you know, spaces in prison. So– excuse me– this was one of them, like, you know what I mean? Like, it’s a good feeling after class, like, you learn, you’re around other people learning, like it felt so fucking normal, like it transformed you for a little bit outside of the prison. And then, you know, I knew they were progressing, like I care about other people and, like, these are my friends who, like, I would talk to them about it, you know, in the rec yard or at work or in the unit and we would, you know, help each other and like, it was the first time it started there, so like, you know, without really knowing, like, we created the first, like, cohort, like, bond. Which you need to like, for the program to excel beyond that, which kinda dissipated since I left actually. Me and that group of people, who most of them come home and got their degree. You know, and some of them are coming now and they’re like, “Eric fucking works there? In New Brunswick?” Like, there’s a kid who’s gonna be coming, two of ‘em who are gonna be coming from the halfway house, um, and I’m gonna be like their contact point. Like, you know, took classes together in there. So, yeah, it was a beautiful thing, um–
When you were there participating in the program, what was, kind of like, the percentage of individuals who were in– at Mountainview who were participating in educational–
Oh, a lot less than ten, I don’t know, five. ‘Cause there’s only certain– certain classes they could only offer like, you know, four, five classes a semester you could only take. Or maybe at that time three. You could only take like two and like the class size, like, people would drop out. So– in my pr– the youth prisons, but even this one specifically there’s a huge turnover rate ‘cause people get shorter sentences. So they’re in and out, in and out and like, you know, the program needs stability so like they’ll try to seek out people who have more time but there’s not a lot of people who have more time there, and then also people are young. So as much as you think the younger people will, it would make more sense to go to college, it also means that their mind isn’t on, like, their mindset isn’t like, “I need to better myself.” It’s like, “Oh, I’m doing a fucking year, fuck that, fuck the system. Like, I’m still gonna go home and sell drugs or do whatever the fuck I want,” you know what I mean? So, yeah, there’s a misconception publicly of like– even, like, what’s more dangerous, like, yeah there’s– there’s bigger, older dudes at adult prisons, but the young kids, they run around, they don’t give a fuck, you know what I mean? So, that– that’s part of the reason, like, it’s still hard to this day for us to have, like, a solid program there. Like, it works, it operates better at adult prisons, cause they’re, you know, doing more time and they’re mature, they’re wise, and they’re like, you know, let’s, let’s really do this, let’s stick together. Um, yeah.
1:01:28.7
Uh, are there any kind of specific relationships or friendships that, during that time, that you kind of recall as– as being particularly impactful or meaningful?
Yeah, definitely that professor that I mentioned. Um, but as far as like other people that I was inside with, yeah. And like, I still have relationships with all them, but they, a lot of them weren’t just in the classroom, like a lot of them like– I feel like the cohort that banded, like, the majority of, like, the people that took classes that were like all about it, we already, like, informally sought each other out and knew other and were friends already, so it was kinda like a group of us, you know what I mean? Like, some I might’ve met at work, some I might’ve met through playing basketball, some through whatever. Like, because there’s a high turnover rate, also a lot of us, um, for more context, did have more time to do in that setting. So like, no one’s in there doing more than ten years, like ten to like– most people don’t have ten, like I had seven, that was a long time. Like after I did three years there, like, and then I went to the camps, there was like, you could count on one or two hands like people that have been there longer than me. It’s like with that comes respect, and then you know people that have been there longer who are, like, more mature, you know what I mean? And you connect with them, because everyone is just in and out. So like, we kind of already had like a group, and like I’m still in touch with, at least the people I was close with, I would say almost all of ‘em. Good amount of ‘em are home, some didn’t finish school, but like two that I’m thinking of specifically, they didn’t finish school even though they did well, but they have really good jobs, they’re making a lot more money than me, they’re doing, you know, trades and like, one or two just graduated last graduation, which I set up at my job and, like, I got to see them graduate and we’re still friends. Like, you know, one’s coming tomorrow to hang out, coming to New Brunswick, he just got a job doing IT and, like, like I said, a couple are coming home. So yeah, so all impactful, um, and we’re still pretty connected, I guess.
1:03:29.6
What was your first interaction with Chris or Don?
Um, so they came in and I’m like, “Ah, Don, like this–” I didn’t know– I mean I didn’t know he’s from Wisconsin, it was just like this guy’s a hippie, you know what I mean? Like he’s just, I could say it now, you know what I mean? Some hippie from Wisconsin who’s just like, fight to the death peacefully, but aggressive– aggressively and peacefully. Um, it was great they just came in, I think it was Don, Chris, and the first time it was like a speaker who’s an alum, I think, Frank. I– I’ve met him since. I don’t know him too well. I’m drawing a blank on his last name, I don’t know why– Frank Gilmore. Um, and then Walter Fortson, another, like, famous grad came in and spoke. Like, they– they had like a couple assembly type things I had to get into and like, I remember sitting down with Chris and Don and you know like, I was a little–not cocky, but like I–you know, at the time like, I knew no one really else there. I’d been to like a 4 year school and I was like, “yo, I have my AA. Like, I have 100 credits at Rutgers,” and they’re like, you know, “keep in touch–“ Like Chris was like, “Keep in touch with me.” You know what I mean, like, he’s– you know. I knew at that time that, like, I would be able to go hopefully in the halfway house. Which at that time was like a distant thought, but it was like, if there’s an outside chance I could be going to Rutgers during the day instead of being in a prison cell while counting and then, like, also there’s a chance that I can get my degree, like, before I come home, like that’s fucking nuts. Um, and Margaret was there too. So Margaret used to be heavily involved, she was the director I believe. And she would ac– she would actually come in once a week. And we had like a little student advisory board type deal, and I was very active. I would, like, be the only one to talk to her. I was like, “You need to sort this out because–.” And I– a little bit, was– was, um, was for personal gain. Like the– in the halfway house process you gotta go through like– you basically have to go through like minimum six months of torture, which is worse than prison, to then get to when you can leave to go to school or work. So I was like, “You need to do something about that,” like, if you look up the statistics for people who are college students and then there’s a gap, they don’t go back, you know what I mean? And I didn’t want to go through that, like I wanted to skip that shit. Which I didn’t– that was the worst six months of my life. Easily.
1:05:07.6
But um, yeah, I was active with her. And then at one point I wrote Chris and I asked him for like– ‘cause I was still, I was cultural anthro, but I was still, like, contemplating, like, what I wanted to do and I was like, this is it, like, I want to be involved in this. Like, I think I asked them, like, “How do I get your job?” (chuckles). Um, which actually, I don’t know what his formal job was then, but it– my job now is somewhat similar to what his job was then. He brought it up recently, cause I mentioned it in the interview when I got the job and, like, I don’t even know if he remembered. He plays it off like he did, but I don’t think he remembered. But, um, when he brought it up again, like now he’s the director of everything and I’m like, “Hell no, I don’t want your fucking job, like, that was then, now I don’t want, I don’t want your job now, trust me.” But, um, I wrote him a letter and, like, I remember him writing me back, ‘cause he told me to keep in touch with him and he wrote me back and he sent me– I asked him for a book list. I was like, “How do I do what you do? Like, what major, what should I read?” And he just– he, you know, he sent me a nice– and he wrote–he gave me a book list. I read the books. I read Foucault you know what I mean? Like, shit like that. Um, but yeah always positive, Chris and Don, you know. Don’s, you know, always more of a like, you know, hippie type. Chris was a little more business. Um, Margaret was– was much softer. She was very, very nice. Um, yeah.
(Editor’s Note: Michel Foucault was a Twentieth Century French philosopher and social theorist.)
What was the process of– I mentioned a little bit (Water is being poured loudly at this point) about the halfway house experience, but the process of transitioning out, when did you– when did you find out when you would be getting out or how you would be getting out?
Well, so the when was known from day one. So when you have an 85% violent crime, no matter what happens, you know, unless you, like, beat up a cop or killed someone, you’re leaving on the day. Like, everyone gets a sheet every month or, yeah, where like, you get like a pay stub from your job and you get, like, updates on your time, ‘cause you get time taken off, and parole eligibility dates and, like, when you have an 85, every date’s the same. Like, you’re leaving that day, like, I knew it was May 26th, 2018 from when the day I went in.
1:07:58.1
Um, so that never changed. And the eligibility for the halfway house, if you– if you’re in good standing is twenty-four months short of that date. So I always knew what day, you know, not– not the date but what time frame I’d be able to go to the halfway house. So the way it works is you do, you get to go to minimum security after, either when you’re two years short or a half year (inaudible), so for me, six years, I did three years on like the main compound, which I guess is medium security, um, I don’t know. I don’t think there’s a fucking difference. Um, but then I went to minimum, which was the camps in Annandale. That’s what it’s called: the camps. For a year. Still took college– took college classes there and that was the best year ‘cause it was, it wasn’t the best year because it was minimum security, it was just the way it was formatted, like, I was in a– a little wing with like all people that were in the program honestly. Like when they called college out, it was only our wing. It was like three– half or three quarters of our wing, you know what I mean? And, like, no one else, and we’re all in the same spot. And we all time in, so like we got treated a little better, like– and you had– when you worked– so the prison I was in, you couldn’t have a TV. It’s so fucking old, there’s not outlets, there’s no air condition, there’s not TV, so I did three years with no TV, no air condition. So when it gets to camps, you have a TV in your bed and you actually get channels, like. They select like, you– they vote on– well, they don’t vote– someone’s in charge, you get like thirty, like, legit channels. Like, not basic cable, like thirty DirectTV channels. So, like, I could watch every fucking sports game in my bed, like, next to my friend, next to me. Like, it was like, that year w– you know, in context of everything else, felt like, you know, three, four months. Like, that was the best year. But then from there was, like, you know, tough decisions, like, do I go through the horrors of what you hear about the halfway house? With the hope that you dodge bullets and suffer to then, you know, be able to make it out and go to school and work? Or stay there, you know what I mean? And I was like, I was like, I– if things go well, I should be able to graduate before I leave like, being incarcerated, like, I gotta try that. But it’s risky cause you get, you know, as much as it sucks you get comfortable and that was the best spot.
1:10:10.7
And it’s like, you know, time can– time can go very fucking slow, you know what I mean? And the– like, the difference between, like, a bail– bad jail environment, experience and day versus a good one is like, there’s such a huge gap. Like, a lot of it depends on what officers work that day. What prison you’re in, you know what I mean? But like, when it’s going smooth you’re just like, I don’t wanna fuck anything up, you know what I mean? But I was like, fuck it, so when I– when you’re two years short you see classification and you, you know, they ask you, “Do you wanna apply to the halfway house? Your eligible.” And I signed the paperwork, and then like a month or two later I left. And, you know, you’re going to either Talbot Hall or Bo Robinson, two assessment centers. I went to Talbot Hall, most people go to it, it’s bigger, and it sucks. It’s fucking horrible. They, they let your– your family can drop off real clothes, like a certain, like–and they’re so strict like, four, five articles of each clothing. But you’re wearing real clothes again, you’re allowed to have fifty dollars cash in your pocket. And like, it’s just, such an illusion that you’re fr– more free, because it’s ten times more strict than prison. Any time you walk down the hall, like, people are screaming at you, “Tight to the right, shirt tucked in! Speaking ban.” You can’t look out the fucking window– I had a view of New York City cause, uh, Talbot Hall’s in Kearny. It overloo– I had– I had a room at an angle where mine was overlooking New York City. If you get caught looking out the window, you get a demerit, like, you get sent back. Can’t look out the fucking window, and the window’s open! Like, you’d have to, like, not look at it. It’s crazy! If you’re like– if this shade was open and like, you can’t– it’s insane. Um, you have to wake up at 6:30, they scream, “Feet on the floor!” They come and check, like, during count they walk in to see if you’re not like silent, sitting the right way. Like, they make you program all day with just, like, such bullshit. Like, it’s the biggest, like, money laundering scheme that no one knows about, like, the government, like, all these programs, they get money to, like, make you program and people like, “What’s program like?” I don’t even know how to describe to you. It’s some 19 year-old idiot reading a slideshow based off research from the 1800s about how to, like, live your life. Be a good per– I don’t know what it is. Or like, all drug and alcohol shit, which didn’t apply to me and most of the people in there. And they force you to go like, four sessions a day, and in between there’s counts and you can’t even lay in your bed, you have to be in room on your bed, but you can’t lay on your bed, you have to be sitting up. And it’s just like, it’s horrible. Like you– every day was like– I’ve never, you know, the worst thing you could do, everyone tells you in prison is like, have a calendar and check off the date. It’s ‘cause it just goes so much slower, but in there I was like, “Oh my God, I’ve been here thirty days, I have sixty more.” Like, thirty-one, fifty-nine, like, oh my God!
1:12:57.1
The food’s horrible so you can’t– your own– you can’t order your own food, there’s no commissary. You have to eat their food, which sucked. You can’t sit where you want, you can’t share any food. Like, if you’re sitting down, you have to– you, when you’re in line you have to sit as you flow in. Like, whoever’s in front of you, behind you, you have to sit next to them. You have to fill in, everyone’s watching you and yelling at you and, like, all eyes are on you but they’re not even cops, they’re just like people that work there that are, like, how do you go to sleep at night? Like, you’re– you’re life is making people miserable, like. And you’re getting paid fucking $12 an hour to do it, like, I don’t– I don’t get that. To say it nicely, but um, you can’t share one piece of food, like, I can’t take one thing off this plate, you get in trouble. They’ll, like, take you out and, like, you know, you can get sent back for that. You– you– they have vending machines which was the only decent food, even though it was shitty, processed food. Like, you can only– you know, you only can use fifty dollars a week and you can’t ever have more than fifty dollars and you can’t share and you could only use one machine at one time for one meal, it’s like, everything is like, yeah.
So that sucked, that was ninety days. So you go from an assessment to an actual halfway house, but almost everyone who– almost everyone in general, but especially if you have a violent crime or if you’ve done more than a couple of years, they make you do further programming, like. Technically that’s not programming to them, they’re just assessing you. So then you get assessed to, you know, they get sent to a halfway house and they give you either work release, moderate treatment, or intense treatment and, like, almost no one gets work released. Like, less than 5% of people. But with a violent crime, I knew I wasn’t getting work release. So I got moderate treatment, so then you go to a halfway house, which they’re not all created equal. Most of them are big, commercial halfway houses that operate very similar to the assessment center, except for once you do the program, you’re allowed out. So, I went to Harbor house, um, you know, which now professionally I have to work with, but it fucking sucked. I got there and I was happy, like, next step, I finally left Talbot Hall, and all the people that left, the shipment the week before, you were just in Talbot Hall. You walk in and their faces are down. I’m like, “What’s a matter, dude? Like, we’re out of Talbot Hall.” They’re like, “This is the same shit.” And it is. The same shit.
1:15:16.3
Like another ninety days of that. Um, and the whole time, too– like, I tell people comparison, like, prison can suck, but you get, you do get comfortable. Which, I’m not trying to say is a good thing, but you– if you have your own room, your own space, you have your own food and a locker that you can eat when you want, in your room. Like, as much as it sucks and there’s rules, like, when you’re in your room, even though you’re trapped, you still have the freedom to do what you want in your own room. Even if you have a Bunkie, like. Or even if you’re in a dorm. You could take a– a tuna pouch and eat it when you want, if you can, you know, if you have food in your locker. And you can do pushups when you want next to your bed or in your room. Or like, if you have the TV, you can watch TV when you want. In these places, no TV in the room, you’re not allowed to work out in the room. You’re not allowed to work out ever except for the forty-five-minute rec they give you, which they cut short every day. You have to wear certain clothes outside. Like, you can’t wear shorts. I had to wear, like, wear pants over my shorts and take ‘em off when I went outside. You can’t wear a white T-shirt which is all they let you wear in prison. Um, yeah, but you still have your own space and you still have some freedoms of, like, what you’re gonna do. In there, they tell you what to do every minute of the day. Like, program, in your room, no TV, no workout, no food in your room, then program and back in your room, then program and back in your room. It’s just like, it sucks.
So, but luckily, so here’s an– uh, a big thing that helped with Chris, that he came to meet me both at Talbot and at Harbor. When he came to Harbor, he already knew I was a Rutgers, New Brunswick student, 101 credits, cultural anthro. Like, they don’t have that at Rutgers Newark cause it– Har– I’m sorry Harbor House is in Newark. I was like, “Chris, I don’t know if they’re gonna, are they gonna let me go to New Brunswick from here, like, this is a strict, one of the strict spots, most of them are str– real strict.” He was like, “I don’t know, I’m gonna find out.” So him and the director met at– I might of left the room. So like, at that point, I thought I might be going to Rutgers Newark, which, you know, I didn’t want to first choice, but compared to what I was doing I’d fucking jump off a plane and I’m– would never skydive, like, I, whatever. Um, and like later that day they came to me with a transfer form which like, like people file transfer forms but nothing ever happens but my, my, um, counselor was like. I’m like, “What’s this?” She’s like, “Well, they’re not gonna let you go to Rutgers, New Brunswick from here so, you can fill out this transfer form.” And there’s, like, one of the good halfway houses in Trenton, where it’s actually like a, it’s not commercial, it’s like a big house that you would never know is a halfway house. Like. This is like a building, the one I’m in, but this is like a big house with like, you know, forty people living in it. You know what I mean? And there’s just like a room, a bunch of big rooms where like, you know, six people are in a room, but it looks like a– like a multi-family house.
1:18:02.1
And they actually gave me a date I was gonna leave, and I was so happy. And, you know, I was friends with everyone, they were, like, jealous, but they were happy for me. Which is rare, a lot of times people just get jealous and, like, mad. But I was fr– friends with a lot of people there and then, I didn’t leave that day to have my bags packed, and I didn’t fucking go and I was like, these pieces of shit, like– Then I didn’t believe I was actually going, like I had visit that weekend and I told my family. ‘Cause my family can visit me the whole time, like, Day 1 to the day I got released, the whole time. My dad came every single weekend, my mom’s parents came every single weekend, my friends rotated in, aunts and uncles rotated in, my mom came every weekend. I was actually lucky I was on a tier in Annandale in the main compound where I got visits both days after a while, which is rare, usually I get them one day. But I needed it, like, “Oh, my family came.” And then in the camps you can get both days. And then in the halfway house you can get both days, like, I always had visits on the weekend. Um, which helped a lot. Definitely helped a lot and definitely a lot of people don’t have family support, so it’s like a huge thing. But yeah, so the day that they said I was gonna leave and I was like, “You gotta be fucking kidding me.” Visit that weekend was so depressing, like, my family was just, like, real sad. ‘Cause they knew the place sucked, like you could tell. Some parts were even more strict than Talbot Hall. Like at Talbot Hall, at visit you could get up with your family and walk to the vending machine and get, you know what I mean? There’s not cops there, you’re in regular clothes, so it’s a little less formal. I mean, not formal, less, like, strict than visit, per se. Um, like they search you, but they pat you down, they can’t strip search you anymore. Like prison, you get naked after every visit. Like, butt naked, every single visit. Um, so, yeah, but then at Harbor House, they could go to the vending machines, but you can’t get up. Just, like, my family’s like, “Why?” I’m like, “I don’t know, Grandma, just go get the burger, don’t ask questions.” (laughs)
(laughs)
I don’t know, and we’re not gonna ask. Like, just let it go. And like a lot of– I did a lot of mitigating with my mom. She clashes, she cause a lot of problems with me in there, a lot of stress with, like, her interactions with the officers. That’s another story, that if you want to dive into we can, but. Um, but yeah, but then eventually, so they lied to me about the date I was leaving, and then like, hope was lost and then like two weeks later, they called me on the speaker in the morning, like, “Pereira, to the central control,” whatever the fuck they called it. And I’m like, “What’s up?” And the dude was like, he was one of the cooler guys that worked there. ‘Cause, remind you, these aren’t cops, they’re– but they still like, you know, they’re– so a lot of times worse, but this one dude was alright. He was like– and there’s all– these are all, like, people from the hood, like it’s in the hood of Newark so it’s all just, like, people working there. And he was like, “Yo, you got your shit packed?” I’m like, “What?” He’s like, “You got your bags packed?” I’m like, “What are you talking about?” He’s like, “We’re leaving.” I’m like, “Oh, shit!” I, like, sprinted to the room. Like, I had unpacked now because I was like, didn’t think it was gonna happen.
1:21:01.1
And I told everyone, they were so happy for me, obviously jealous, but they were– they were cool, they were happy for me. They knew I was going to school and everything, so then I– he just drove me in a van. Me, him, no cuffs, ‘cause you’re in a halfway house and we went to– which is weird, if you’re in a halfway house and you’re going to– you go in, you know, you can go in a prison facility you get cuffed, but like going from one to another you don’t. And then I went to the spot in Trenton, which was, like, weird at first ‘cause like no structure, it was just like, they had me sitting on a couch like, “Oh, someone will be in to check your shit. Make sure, you know, you don’t have anything you’re not supposed to.” I’m just chilling there, like there’s a TV on, there’s like three big fridges and freezers. Like, people are just chilling. I’m like, where am I? This is like somewhat back to earth, you know what I mean? Um, but still a little confusion because you’re always skeptical, no matter what anyone says of what you’re allowed to do. Because until you can do it, people can change their mind, you’re not in power.
So when I first got there, they were like, there was no programming which was like amazing. Like, I don’t have to wake up and fucking get brainwashed, like they make you say, in the halfway house, every day twice a day, morning and night, like, sayings. Like, you have to say them, like, it’s literally brainwashing, like. Attitude, Credo. Like, these are like, like almost like songs you have to say. Not sing, but like, insane. Anyway, um, so there’s none of that. And the dude was basically like, you know, “Try to be up by 8:30.” Like, they didn’t want me sleeping in all day and anything, but it was just like a house, like, just, it was only like four people that worked there at the time. Three or four. And like forty people that lived there and they’re just like, “Yo, just don’t sleep all day, like, be up by like 8, 8:30. Um, you can use the TV.” And there was like shared food, like, there was like, certain things in the fridge that were for everyone. Like bread, milk, peanut butter, jelly and I’m just like, “Holy shit.” Like, coffee. I’m like, this is like, somewhat normal, like this place is nothing– I mean the food they gave you sucked, but another thing was is like, when you got visits, you can keep, you can store your own food in the fridges and freezers there. So now my family started cooking, that’s when, that’s when things got good.
1:23:08.7
But it was a little– I had a two-week blackout. So like, they wanted you to not work or do school for two weeks and then you see a counselor. So it was a little two weeks of uncertainty and trying to stay busy. Like, it was a little boring, I guess and uncertain, but it was still, like, not strict, so I was happy, but still like, “I don’t know if they’re gonna let me go to school still.” ‘Cause all the– you know, you hear rumors from people that are like, “Yo, they don’t let anyone go to Rutgers. Like, they let people go to Mercer.” And I’m like, “Well, I got my associates.” They’re like, “Oh, they’re not gonna let you go that far.” ‘Cause it was like forty-five minutes. Everyone else worked, like, close. I was like, “Man I got a transfer here just for that, they’d better fucking let me go.” But I wouldn’t say that to them, I’m just in my mind, you know. But it was like uncertainty– the first two weeks were a little weird and, uh– oh, they wouldn’t let me get visit. Two– for the first two weeks, that sucked. So like it was a long, you know. Not long when– and I wasn’t supposed to use the phone, it was just weir– they were very lax, but like just the first two weeks was, like, weird rules that they didn’t really enforce, but I didn’t push. So the first two weeks was, like, uncertain and weird, but then, like, first visit, you know, my family cooked a fucking feast, it was great, and then I used the phone. Like, and the phone was free, I can call every day. In prison you have to, you know, they have to put money on it, it was like a regular phone. Like, you just go into a room with a phone. Um, I was watching Sports Center in the morning, I was good. Uh, but yeah, so then, then I meet with a counselor and I’m like, “You know, I’m trying to go to Rutgers, that’s why I got transferred here,” and he’s like, he knew and he was like, “Yeah, I don’t think that’s gonna happen.” And I’m like, “Fuck, are you serious?” Like, this is what everything was for, and they have, like, contracts with, like, shitty-ass jobs, but, like, it– it’s easier for them to monitor you if you’re all working at the same place. So I literally worked– I– he’s like, “Just take this job right now.” Like, he needed to fill a job, “Just take this job right now, and then we’ll talk about it.” And I wa– you know, I just did it. Dude, it was an in– an industrial slave labor illegal operation of, like, of commercial laundry. So, like, you literally, like, were in a sweatshop. Like, it was literally only undocumented people and us.
1:25:17.0
And it was like, it was crazy. You– you got like this huge, like, massive amounts of like all dirty linens from hotels. So like, towels and sheets and blankets, and they’re dirt–like, you know, you’ve been to a hotel. They’re just dirty, like blood, or cum, or I don’t know what was on– alcohol, throw up. You just gotta pick all them up and like this huge washing machine, you have to wash them all, then you have to rip them out, which they’re heavy. It’s a workout, that was the only part I like. And then put them in these huge dryers which weren’t even covered, there was like a huge flame in the middle of this place and like, it was like, boarded up. It was like out of a movie, like, it– it– it literally got shut down and none of my paychecks cashed. Like, none of them cashed there, like, most people their paychecks wouldn’t cash, so they would have to, like, go to a check cashing, but then they stopped. Like, the three weeks I worked there, I got zero dollars, and I’m like a slave, straight slave labor. Like, they didn’t even let you take, like, like fifteen minute break and like the– the– the dude who ran it would tell on people. ‘Cause in the halfway house I was in, it was lax, like, everyone had a cell phone. And he would, like, look at the cameras and, like, tell the halfway house. He was a piece of shit. But, um, I did that just to make them happy, and the seme– I got there, like, right before Christmas and I– the semester starts in the middle of January and I’m like, you know, max I’m doing this three weeks. They’re either gonna let me start school, or I’m getting a different job, like, I’m the– I’m gonna get a different job, or I’m gonna go back to, like, this isn’t gonna fly. ‘Cause it was horrible working. Um, but glove– the– the guy who ran the halfway house knew of NJSTEP and someone had gone there before, but it was prior to the– the counselor that I had working there, anyone else working there, except for the guy who ran it. So, like, I’m calling Chris, like, having my dad call and e-mail Chris like, “You know, they said they aren’t gonna let me go, what’s going on?” You know, like everyone does now, but you know in retrospect now I know he’s busy and gotta be patient. And Chris emailed the guy and, like, the main guy talked to me, he’s like, “So, you know, you want to go to Rutgers? NJSTEP? Da da da da da.” He was cool, and I was like, “Yeah, I was there for two years before. I have 101 credits.” He was like, “Alright.” And then, they let me go and then the rest is history so then, so twenty-four months short, six months was the torture, and then the three weeks sucked, but then once that semester started, I was living good.
1:27:33.5
Like, from– I just, so I did Spring. I took Summer classes, which we don’t real– we don’t let halfway houses do it. I took Summer classes, Fall, I took a Winter class, we don’t really let– let it happen anymore, and then I took Spring, and then I graduated May 2018 in the middle of the month of May, and I got home May 26th. So I graduated college right before I got home. And the whole eighteen-month stretch was like– I mean it’s still crazy living a double life, like you’re stressed out because you c– you have to leave at a certain time, you have to– you can’t be late on any of your call– you have to make five calls throughout the day. From like a Rutgers, specific Rutgers phone, like, if you’re late they send you back to prison. And then you have to be home at a certain time, and I’m taking the train, there’s time with the train delays, you’re not allowed to have phones, you have to borrow a phone and tell them the train’s, like, fucked up, and they have to believe you, so you have to have good standing. And, like, you’re living a double life, but I mean, you know, I loved school, like, I did every fucking reading, I talked in every class, I told my professors about my situation, I did, uh, I did research. I helped run orientation for new people starting in the program, I helped TA the class, like, this is part of my job, like, I helped TA the class that we do the seminar for new students. While I was in the halfway house, like, I have to leave the class–
So you graduated Spring of 2018?
Yeah.
2018.
Yeah. And I started Spring of 2017, yeah. So I did a year and a half. And it was great, I mean, I met my girlfriend while I, you know, that I’m still with, living with now, while I was in the halfway house. She was a student. Like, at first it was fucking weird going back to campus, like, even though I had been there, like I, I– no one could felt more comfortable than me, and I felt extremely uncomfortable. ‘Cause I was a Rutgers student here, lived here. You know, which almost no one in prison was, and I’m going here and I, you know, after being in prison for four, five years. And I’m, you know, I wa– at the time I was 27? 26? 26. I was like, I feel like I’m 50 and I’ve been in prison my whole life and these kids look like they’re 12 and they’re wearing really tight clothes and they’re all really skinny, and I’m just like, what the fuck is going on, like.
1:29:43.2
But I wound up assimilating well, like I’ve, you know, had group projects and I wound up telling, like, these girls in my class were the first people I, like, told that I was like, in a halfway– I was in prison. Like, that’s why when you hit me up on nights and weekends to do group work, like, I don’t answer and that’s why I wouldn’t. You told me we’re going to the fucking dining hall and then doing school, I thought we’re going to the library after, but really everyone works at their laptop at the dining hall. I didn’t have a laptop, like, I did the first semester without having a laptop. You’re not allowed to have one, so like, I eventually got one and just kept in– in the office, ironically, that I have now. Um, and they were like, didn’t– they, their reaction was amazing, like, everyone’s reaction at Rutgers campus was so welcoming. Like, a lot of this was probably my major, like, social science, you know, but like. They were like, one, they, like, let me know point blank, like, I would’ve never known if you didn’t tell me. So then I’m like, okay, I’m just a fucking weirdo thinking that everyone can, you know what I mean? But really no one could tell. I’m doing a good job, good job, Eric! Um, and then like, they were very, like, sympathetic, like, I told them the whole story. Like, the accident and what happened and very sympathetic and, like, I would tell professors, ‘cause, like, sometimes class and calls would interrupt, or like, I wanted to do writing on it. Like, my senior thesis, so like, they were, like, encouraging me and helping me and, like, the support was great. Like, I just– it was great. It was so much different than the previous six months, you know what I mean? And I excelled at school, you know what I mean? I did all my readings, I participated, I got A’s. I made a lot of friends, like, even though they were, you know, 19 and skinny and look like they’re 12, like, I made a lot of friends. Um, and like my family would come and visit me, take me out to lunch. Like, seeing me out here in the real world was, like, huge for them, you know what I mean? They’re just like, crying, and like, “Oh My God.”
You know, um, I wasn’t supposed to do some of that stuff. Like, technically in a halfway house, you’re not supposed to– you’re supposed to be in class, in, like, the office, and that’s it, and back. But, like, you know, I had my whole city here, four campuses, like, there’s no chance they would know anything unless I missed a call. I never missed a call, I never came back late. I missed one– I– I would miss one call. But I was lucky enough I was in a lax place and I built a rapport over a year and a half where, like, they didn’t assume I was doing anything wrong and, like.
1:31:53.3
But yeah, I was, I would never really got in trouble the whole time, even in prison, like I never did anything stupid. I never, like, as bad as I am with, like, I hate– I like doing what I want to– I hate being told what to do. As bad as I am at that, like, in general, when it’s needed, I’m good at it. So like, I was never, like, arguing with cops or cops never hated me or, like, even though I hated them, and thought very lowly– you know what I mean? So, yeah, but the halfway house was great, like, I was able to eat real food and roam around and, like, have friends and, you know, it’s still, you know, then once you get used to it you realize the shortcomings, like, you know, it’s a spring day and I gotta go back to the halfway house tonight. Like, it sucks, I want to hang out. Like, the weekend, can’t go to the football game, I can’t, you know, d– there’s so many things you can’t do, obviously you don’t have your freedom, but during the day it was good. And then, like, once I met Aria, who I’m dating now, was like, that kind of completed the circle in the halfway house ‘cause like all my classes were on Douglass and we live on Douglass now, campus. So like, I actually have, like, a home base where, like, I could keep some clothes and, like, we would cook, like I love cooking, like, we cooked, she can cook too. And like, you know, I could take a nap, which, you know, none of this shit I was supposed to do. Like, you know, I don’t think Chris would be mad, but I’m not supposed to allow students there, stuff, you know what I mean, in my role, but I was smart about it. But yeah, I– I– you definitely feel like almost a little more than half a real person again, you know? But you’re definitely living a double life ‘cause like, you go home and I don’t even tell the closest people in there what I was doing. Like, “Nope, just school man. That’s it.” You know what I mean?
I was just gonna ask that, yeah, and then, kind of like, what was the transition then from finishing school, getting out of the halfway house and then, transitioning into your current role?
Yeah. Yeah. So I– well just coming home was like– the halfway house definitely mitigated a lot of shock and awe and, like, you know. ‘Cause I was living somewhat normal life from the hours of nine am to seven pm. Um, for eighteen months here on campus, but– Then you come and it was– I had like the first night is like, like, you’re just, like, about to make a call, don’t have to be in, like, I’m allowed out, I’m sleeping in my own bed, like, sleeping, you know, with her. Like, we’ve never slept togeth– like, over together, overnight, so that was a big deal.
1:34:26.4
It was definitely weird coming home. Like, good weird, but definitely fucking weird. Um, but as far as transitioning to the role. So I was doing, like, some of– some things that I have to do now already, so Jeff had the role before me, and he was kind of phasing out, like, I think he knew he was leaving. And he was hired by Rutgers in the beginning, like, he wasn’t hired by Chris at that time,, like, Chris couldn’t, they didn’t give him that freedom. And then he left while I was still in the halfway house, so I kind of did part of his job, which is my job now, with myself, even though I was the student. Like, communicating with the halfway house. Like, my counselor was cool and I was like, “Here’s my schedule. Here, here could be my possible call times.” Like, I was on top of shit. And then, um, I did orientation two years in a row, even though I was in the halfway house. I TA’ed the class two years in a row. Um, well the second year was when I was home that fall. And then, you know, the job was vacant, and like I told Chris, I’m like, “Can I do, like, an internship in the summer? Some kind of thing, you don’t have to pay me, but parole’s gonna want me to work right away and, like, I need a couple months to spend time with my fucking family.” I’ve been in prison for six years, like, I’m on parole, I’ve gotta meet with them twice a month, I can’t go on vacation. Like, Jesus, can I, like, not work for a couple months? You know what I mean? A couple weeks at least, so, he said yeah. And like, you know, I helped him do some stuff, but then I, you know, I transitioned to TAing the class again, but now being home and free. Um, and then the job just finally, they posted it. And like, I honestly wasn’t gonna apply until Don wrote and told me to. Um, and– and I learned that he had no say, like, over who was hired, like, he just told me to apply. ‘Cause I was like, I have no professional experience, you know what I mean? Like, I know I just graduated, but, I didn’t know. My friend owns– I’ll give you a card, my– a free burger card, Diesel and Duke, I don’t know if you ever tried it, on Easton Avenue, it’s a burger place, it’s been there for years.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So he was my roommate, I lived on Stone Street. It’s– it’s on Easton, but it’s at the end of Stone. So he actually bought that when it was– it used to be a hot dog spot before I got locked up, and then he, you know, now he owns, they have five of them now. They just opened one in Princeton. So I was like, you know, he had just opened Jersey City, which was way bigger. This one was tiny in New Brunswick. And he’s like, “Yo, if, you know, you can manage that, I’ll pay you sixty a year eventually.” Which never happened, ‘cause I got this job, but also never would’ve happened ‘cause they found someone from– long story short, it wouldn’t of– the position would never– but I was working at this one in New Brunswick. Just, you know, the counter. You know, making like eleven [dollars], and then eventually I managed it, fifteen an hour for, like, a couple of months.
1:37:07.2
But I was– you know, I’m not a complacent person so, like, after a couple weeks, I’m like, I need to find a fucking real job. Like, I’m not doing this for that much longer. Um, yeah but I still wasn’t gonna apply, and then, uh, Don wrote and wanted to take me out to lunch because he missed our graduation that year because he had a honors senior– he had one of his students presenting his senior thesis that day and it was in Newark, and I was still in the halfway house. I was mad at Chris, ‘cause I was in the halfway house in Trenton, and they did graduation every other year was in New Brunswick, ‘cause now we have, you know, Newark and Camden campuses, and they did it in Newark that year, and I was the only halfway house student. I’m like, I don’t even know if they’re gonna let me go, it’s all the way in Newark, it’s far from Trenton. He probably knew they were gonna let me go. I was mad at the time, I didn’t know what he knew, you know what I mean? But they were iffy about it. But, um, you know, ‘cause my family was coming, it was like a big day for me, you know what I mean? I’m like, I’m– this is the program? I’m gonna miss my graduation, you know what I mean? But um, yeah, so– so Rodin wanted to take me out to lunch to make up for not coming so he– he’s like, “Invite whoever.” So I invited a couple of friends from the program, still in the program, and Aria. And he was like, “You know they opened the job for Jeff’s old job?” I’m like, “Yeah, I know.” He’s like, “I think you should apply.” I’m like, “Really?” He’s like, “Yeah, you’d be great, you should definitely apply.” And I’m, you know– and someone– and other people had told me that but I was like, I just assumed that anyone else in the pr– like, I didn’t know, you know, you just assume shit. Like, my, there’s so many other alums who graduated before me who have experience that would get it over me. Like, why would I apply? Like, one dude had his Masters. But it turned out like a lot of other people, the pay, you know, I don’t make that money, so a lot of other people were like, that’s still a downgrade in salary, so like a lot of people I thought were gonna apply didn’t. And then, some other people that– I did apply, like I just, I killed the interview. I really studied up, like, I took it seriously. I was like, you know, I can go in there without studying up and kill the interview ‘cause I’m good socially and I know this program, like I lived it, but I need to come off very professional because that would be my weakness. Because I don’t have professional experience.
1:39:13.2
And Chris told me when I told him I applied ‘cause I was TAing the class, he was teaching the class, I saw him every week. And he was like, “I’m glad you applied,” he was like, “I’m just letting you know if, you know, if you don’t make it through HR’s filtering, it’s because you don’t have professional experience.” And I’m like, “Alright, fuck!” I’m not even gonna get that phone call, I guess. Like, then I’m like, alright maybe there’s no hope. But I got a– a phone interview and I, like, I studied like. Other people in the program that I was TAing the class with, the new cohort, they were like, you know, everyone in the pr– I was tight with the new people that I knew when I was around. And they were like, “Bro, we want you to get this job.” Like, they, like, helped me do mock interviews and, like, my girlfriend, and, like, some of my cousins. Like, I was, like, on it, like, I researched every question they would ask with an answer, best way to answer it, like. And I, like I said, I probably could’ve went in it blind and did pretty good, but I killed the phone interview and like, to this day, like, the people that were on the phone interview, you know, now I’m like, co– well, Regina’s my director and then Isaiah and Caroline they were like, “Yours was the best by far.” And then I got a in-person interview I took very seriously, and just did good, and then I just got a call, I got the job, and I’m like, “Holy shit!” Well no, actually, I didn’t get a call. Chris told me after class, when I was TAing the class, he like, it was delayed, like, I thought I was gonna find out and then I’m like f– and ironically one of the finalists, one of the other finalists was my last counselor at the half, when I was going, the one I was at. Where I told you I was doing a lot of the coordinating ‘cause Jeff wasn’t here, it was him. And he had professional experience, and he graduated Rutgers, but obviously he wasn’t locked up. But, um, and they thought he had experience with the program, just because of me, I was the only person going from there to there. Like, I was his connection but he didn’t do shit. He was a good dude though, like he– I don’t think he would’ve been bad. But I’m just like, when I submitted my schedule to him, it was already in motion, like, he took over from someone else. Like, all he had to do was like, click a button and say, “Alright, this is Eric’s schedule. He’s– same as it was, keep going,” you know? But Chris told me after class, like he walked me out. He did the very, like, nonchalantly, like, you know, “I want you to know made– you know, we’re gonna send you an offer for the job,” he’s like, “congratulations.” Like, very s– very, very director-like. And I gave him a hug (laughs).
(laughs)
I was like, “Thanks, so much!” You know? And then, like, they were waiting, and like, the student, like, the people in the, now in the TA class I was TAing and they’re, like, freaking out. They were pretty happy. And I was like, “Holy shit,” you know what I mean? It’s a big thing because I’m passionate about it, like, I’m so happy I’m in this role for the program, um, but then me personally it’s like, you know, your family– and even me, even though I was, I never lost confidence in myself, like, I always knew I would figure it out, especially cultural anthro. Even if I didn’t go to prison, everyone’s like, “What the fuck are you gonna do with that?” Like, “Whatever I want. Don’t worry about it.” Um, but uh, yeah, with my family it was like, you know, “You came home. You know, you were in prison. And it’s like, you graduated, now you’re home and you have a job at Rutgers.” They’re just like, (exhales heavily), you know what I mean? Like a six year exhale, seven year exhale, yeah.
1:42:25.9
So, it was a– it was a big deal.
What’s the nature of your day to day?
Which day? (chuckles)
(chuckles)
Um, yeah, so the job– the job– so I guess the most general way to say it is I provide student support service for people in the program transitioning to campus. Whether home or still currently incarcerated, which would be a halfway house. So, but it’s such a wide variety of day to day because I coordinate with people, who some are still in prison, who are coming and gonna start, some in a halfway house, some home. There’s a lot of coordination with getting transcripts, filling out paperwork, applying FAFSA just to get here, meet with them, like, explaining what the program is and run orientation. And then making sure there’s a smooth transition, um, you know, with student support service helping them navigate campus. And then there’s other things like, there’s data collection and there’s, um, there’s just, I need to have relationships with, like, everyone on campus. Like, the more relationships I have on campus with different departments and ho– and just knowing how things work. Like, Rutgers is a huge fucking machine, like, people are like, “Oh Rutgers!” Like, they think Newark, and New Brunswick, and SAS, and engineering, and business school are, like, all one and, like, they couldn’t– one could be on Mars, one could be on Jupiter, like, the furthest from the truth. So you just like a lot of– but then, you know, I never had a professional job, so a lot of this is just learning, like, how to navigate, like, you know. There’s like a template for, like, a formal e-mail and you gotta do that. Like, you know, it’s pretty cliché, but you know. Greeting, you know? “I’m reaching out to speak about this, is there a way this can happen?” And then, our stu– you know, another thing is like our sch– you get involved with the students' personal life, like, you have to know a lot about them and really guide them. And it’s like, one day I’m a psychiatrist, a psychologist, you know, the next day I’m a c– I’m a counselor, the next day I’m like a academic advisor. Um, I do a lot of things, like, I’ll have to go, you know, students– and then we have that house, the Mountainview House for students in Highland Park. So I, like, kinda manage the house. But like, when you tell other people on campus, like “Oh, how many students do you support?’ And I’m like, you know “twenty-five, thirty.” They’re like, “Woah, that’s it!” Like, you know they look at you, I’m like, “You have no idea.” I was like, “You have 500 students, and you just send out an email to all of them.” I’m like, “I have to come in and help them with their problems, I have to go the house, make sure the bills are paid. I have to walk them to, like, a lot of specific issues,” you know what I mean? So a lot of it is just, like, knowing the Rutgers system, but knowing your students, and then knowing how to help them, but also like, how they can be helped.
1:45:06.9
Um, but I like it. Like, I love it. It’s like, it’s something that I’m passionate about. So like, at the end of the day, even if I had a rough day at work and it was hard, or it was frustrating, or really busy, ‘cause like the work comes in waves, you know what I mean? Um, like at the end of the day it’s something, like, I know I’m doing what I’m passionate about and I– I f– I feel like I’m doing something meaningful, you know what I mean? And I’m also, another layer is like I’m happy that me going through it, someone incarcerated went through it, is in the role. Like that’s another very powerful thing that, like, we all as alum, I could say collectively, or most of– almost all of us say like, that’s like a movement, like, we want people who went through it to be in these positions. So I was very happy about that.
What’s a frequent piece of advice you find yourself giving to someone who’s coming into the program?
Um, I’m just gonna– these are gonna be all Chris lines, (chuckles). Um, he’s the best to do it, and this– you know, he created this, so it’s all in his head. You know, from a social science perspective, but also in general, like, you know, “Remember your– you’re coming to college to learn how to think, not to get a job.” ‘Cause that’s a big, um, frustration people have is that, like, you know, they go through everything and they can’t find a job and they’re mad. And like, they want to program to do more, and actually that’s something I’ve taken on in trying to help that, a little bit. You know what I mean, like, I can’t be a personal job recruiter, but I try to connect people with all the resources– that’s another thing, like a huge part of my job is connecting people to resources, and discovering resources, and, you know. But, um, you know, you come to college to learn how to think, um, the whole– the more time you put in, the more you gonna get out of it, like, if you just show up for– if you want to work full time, or if you wanna just show up to class and get good grades, you’re gonna wind up with just a degree, you need to talk to your professors, you need to participate in class, you need to go to office hours, you need to be involved, you need to go to these like– like, Chris’ll, Chris says it. It’s not even,– I can’t even just do his words, the way he delivers, like he’s, he’s a beast. He’ll just be like, “They have all these events, you just fucking go. They give– Rutgers throws out more free food than anyone, like, you just go, you get free food, you shake hands, tell ‘em you’re interested, they’re gonna love you. Like, half the people are, you know.” I tell people this ‘cause I was one, “Like, half the people are just here to party, they’re 21 years old,” you know, the t– when you, a professor should– you show that you’re interested and you care, they’re gonna like, “Oh my God, how can I help you?” You know what I mean? So a lot of it is that, for advice.
1:47:41.2
Um, and then– one good thing too, that, uh, for me specific that I’m in the role, like I show students like, along the lines of what I was saying, like to be involved, and to get a, you know, to learn how to think, but also to set yourself up for getting a job, like, I show them a resume that I was able to build while I was in the halfway house. ‘Cause I did research, I finished first in my, like, presentation for my senior thesis. Um, I got like a little bullshit article published and, like, my professors, like textbooks she was writing, which was like, luck, and it was like, two pages, and she edited the shit out of it (chuckles) like. But like, that’s on my resume, you know what I mean? And then I– I, um, TA’ed the seminar class while I was in the halfway house, volunteered to do it. Like, that’s on my resume. Like, you can’t, like I’m like, you can’t just sa– sa– you can’t just put bachelor’s of in size 500 font on a resume and, like, get a job. Like, you need to fill it out. So like, some students I’ll send it to and I’ll show ‘em, and they’re like, “Oh my God.” I’m like, “Yeah, dude, I was in the halfway house, your fucking home, like, yours should be twice as good.” You know? But then it, but then you also have to deal with the, you know, students are gonna do what they wanna do and take their course. There’s still a lotta students who are, you know, not gonna take your advice, even though you went through it, and even though they agree with you, and that’s frustrating at times. When you put a lotta work into helping someone professionally, but then also personally, you know what I mean? Uh, personal and professional, you know, blend a little bit, even though, you know, you need boundaries, that’s what I was always told when I was hired, which is true. Regina always said that and that’s true, you do need the boundaries, but you know, I still do have a relationship, I would say beyond professional with probably everyone, in the program, so. Yeah, it can be frustrating, you know? But, I hope I’m giving good advice.
What do you think are, um, perhaps some of the challenges that the program itself might face? Ongoing, you know, what’s your–
Um, well, it’s gonna, there’s gonna be new things. Like, a new thing in the program is that people are gonna be coming home now with their Bachelor’s. You know, that just, they’re the first one, ‘Tonne came home, um, last year, or a year and a half ago. Like, right after me, and I think, maybe one more is about to– or just came home, but that’s gonna be a new trend, like, what do we– how do we help support people who are coming home already with their Bachelor’s degree? That’s, like, the future.
1:50:14.6
‘Cause I went to– so one of our alum worked at Hudson Link, which is not the same but a– you know, a prison higher ed program in New York, but they only operate inside. Like where– in New Jersey STEP is so unique that we’re inside and outside on campus. They’re on the inside, so they’re used to people coming home without– with their degree. So like when I– I actually went to I guess, train there for a couple days ‘cause I’m close with them. Um, I met them at this conference, there’s like the conference for this work, NCHEP: National Conference for Higher Education in Prison. So I went last year, just came home, it was in November, I went last year. I got financial aid and I was very active, and then this year I’m on the planning committee, and I’m going again to St. Louis this year in like three weeks. Um, so that– so I’m, like, networking with other groups. ‘Cause part of what I think is important is like other people understanding this is a national movement, like when you’re in prison, you’re isolated, you’re like– it’s good to know there’s other people in other states, like, working hard at this to do the same thing, it’s a national movement. But challenges, yes, that’s one of them. One of them is, you know, addressing the– the job thing, even though, you know, we don’t have the manpower right now, or the focus to, like, make that top priority. But that is still something, you know what I mean, ‘cause– And then it’s also besides jobs in general, it’s also like specific fields, like there’s a couple students who graduated in the STEM field that can’t get a job in their field, and they’re– and I’m per– I have personal with them as well, and like, you know, they’ll complain to me and I’ll just listen, but I’ll be like, you know you should be more grateful. But then also, they do have a point, you know what I mean? They did a hard major and as grateful as they should be, it also sucks, like, if you do fucking engineering, you work your ass off, and you get a Princeton internship that’s affiliated with the program, and then you graduate and you go on all these interviews and you can’t get it ‘cause you’re, you know, you needed someone, there needs to be trailblazing politically in getting into STEM field, you know?
Is– is the– is there barriers specific to their incarceration or is–
No, no, it’s the field–
It’s the–
Of STEM, yeah, it’s not their charges, yeah. So, that’s– that’s a future issue, um– I mean the next thing too is so we’ve been expanding rapidly, so next thing is, like, people coming home with their Bachelor’s it’s gonna be, um– I don’t know if we’re gonna evolve– we’re gonna have to evolve in addressing it. How we address it, that’s a Chris question, um, I think we’ve kind of approached it in that like, we’ll do what we can, but, like, dealing with graduate school as far as like, we’ve had a lot of people graduate Graduate school, but it was all on their own, you know what I mean? But now it’s gonna be like, well, we’re gonna have more people doing it, and then we’re gonna have people coming home with BA’s so there might be need more help there. And then also, possibly in the future getting a Masters Program inside is, um, possible future endeavor. Um, yeah, progress man. I think all good problems, you know?
Was there anything that I didn’t ask you, that you maybe assumed I would ask you or anything that I’ve–
Um, I feel like I talked a lot (chuckles).
Just the goal.
Yeah, I feel like I talked a lot. Um, nah, nothing I can think of offhand.
Um, yeah, I mean I guess at this one, I think I’ll stop the recorder here.
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