Ibrahim Sulaimani

Ibrahim Sulaimani was 15 years old at the time of his arrest. He stayed at the Mercer County youth detention center for two years while going through the trial process, and eventually received the harshest sentence possible for the crime for which he was convicted, serving thirty years. Ibrahim speaks with pride regarding the educational standards he reached while he was incarcerated, and he is proud of how far he has come in his journey to freedom.

“I’m more humane now than I– than I was. And I’ve developed that now and held onto that humanity and that community of– of self and of people and of society more. I appreciate it more. And that’s what I want pe– other people to– to– to see my story and appreciate it.”

— Ibrahim Sulaimani

ANNOTATIONS

Annotations coming soon.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by John Keller

April 5, 2019

New Brunswick, New Jersey

Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn

[RECORDING ONE]

(00:00:00)

So this is John Keller with coLAB Arts. It is Friday, April 5th at about 12:00 in the afternoon. We’re located, uh, in the Randolph Room at the First Reformed Church at 9 Bayard Street, New Brunswick, New Jersey. And today’s interview is with? 

Ibrahim Sulaimani.  

Alright. And where do you currently reside? 

In Cherry Hill, New Jersey.

Okay. Um, so, basically as we mentioned before, we’ll just kind of start at the beginning. So where were you born? 

Uh, Somerville, New Jersey. 

Okay.  

And raised in New Brunswick. 

And, uh, when were you born? What was your birthday? 

Uh, June 9th, 1972.

Okay. 

Somerville Hospital. 

Somerville Hospital. Um, is that the hospital that’s now, it’s now part of Robert Wood, right, is that– 

Uh, probably.

Yeah, yeah. (overlapping) 

Uh, I can only imagine. (overlapping)

Um, yeah, out on 22. Um. When you were born, um, were you– you were born out in Somerville but your family was residing in New Brunswick at the time? 

Well, at that time my mother, uh, lived with her father on Gerard Avenue in Franklin Township. So, and that’s where, you know, up until about 7 years old I lived there. And we moved to California briefly, and then when we returned– we only moved to California for about a year. My mother, me and my mother, and her, uh, at the time boyfriend. Uh, when we stayed out there for about a year, and then we came back. When we came back, we, uh, moved to, uh, Townsend Street. It was 571– I forgot the address, it’s been so long. Uh, but it was on Townsend Street, next to, uh, next to the Urban League. Right there on Townsen and Troop.

When you were born, what was your family structure like? You mentioned that your mom was living with your dad– with your grandfather at the time.

Yes. Well, my mother, uh, you know. For most of my childhood she was a nurse in the nursing home over there– I forgot where it is but it’s, I think it’s out towards South Brunswick. Uh, my grandfather was a Franklin Township police officer. Uh, I had my aunt, you know, my aunts and uncles were all in and out because it was my father’s home. Uh, so that pretty much was the base. So all of them were in and out along with my niec– neh– uh, cousins’n stuff. 

And, uh, what were– how old were you, uh, up until you left? You were living in that– that house for a while before you moved to California, (overlapping) How old were you?

Yes, 7 years old when we moved. Yeah.

What are some of you, kind of earliest memories, of–

Well I loved it over there! This, uh, the whole neighborhood, I– I guess you could call it psuedo-suburban, uh, it’s real, like, country like is way, it’s tucked in the back of, uh, Somer– Somerset. Uh. The neighborhood was, uh, beautiful. A lot of kids in the area, I knew them all, the Wilsons and the, uh, Griffins and everybody. The Jacksons and Robertsons. So we all grew up together.

And what kind of things would you– would you do? 

Uh. Well there was a lot of woods, so everything was just like wood things. (laughs) You know, gettin’ lost in the woods, buildin’ tents in the woods. Playing war in the woods. You know, fake huntin’ in the woods. Uh. You know, bein’ that my grandfather was a police officer I was able to, you know, like, enjoy a lot of things like– like bow and arrows and stuff. He would teach me all that stuff. Uh, know how to hold a gun and everything and that, and be responsible if I ever see one layin’ around and stuff like that. It was pretty fun.

You had a good relationship with your grandfather? (phone vibrating) 

Oh, I loved my grandfather. He’s like– he’s like the best. He passed away in 1990. (pause) (whispers) He was great.

And how ‘bout your relationship with your mom or some early memories? 

Uh– They were mostly great. Uh, I didn’t like her– her boyfriend at the time who later became her husband. Uh, couldn’t stand him. He was just like, just, in my eyes, well, in everybody in the family’s eyes just a lowlife. 

Mhm. 

Uh, but for some reason she liked him. (scoffs)

Are there any specific things that you can recall about him that you didn’t like about him, or? 

Well he was, he was verbally abusive towards my mother. He was abusive, uh, physi– later on he was physically abusive. ‘Cause at the house, you know, he got abusive with her a few times on Gerard and, uh, my, you know, my uncles, they’re, you know, pretty tough guys so they came over there and pounded him up a few times. With, uh, Bruce Jackson, Barry Jackson, Guy Jackson, all of them were my uncles. And, uh, so it wasn’t– later on when we moved away that it became more like, uh, abusive. 

Um, uh, what was your– you mentioned your uncles and your other extended family?

Yes.

Did you spend a lot of time with that extended family? 

Yes. Yeah. We– we were a close knit family.

Yeah. 

Like I said, bein’ that I lived at my grandfather’s house, that was the base. So that was like, and– and everybody else, they went in and around Franklin, like, uh, like my uncle Bruce and Guy, everybody played for Franklin Township High School. The Warriors, football, wrestlin’. Uh, my Uncle Barry and BB, they taught there, they became principals later on, so everything was, like, centralized around that– that area, that neighborhood until we moved. And then everybody pretty much branched out, but. Everybody’s still in Jersey for the most part. Everybody’s still in Jersey. And we’re all still close knit. 

Um, what was– what kind of prompted that move? What was– (police siren in background) 

I’m not sure. Yeah, I’m not even sure. I know that I just remember not likin’ it. I mean, at 7 years old you don’t know the– the distance, mileage and stuff, but you just know you’re far from your family. Took us, uh, you know, normally it takes three days but it took us four days to get to California. Took a Greyhound bus. And, uh, four days worth of tra– traveling, you just knew you were far. And– and callin’ back home and it’s– it’s dark out there, daytime, daytime out there, you know what I mean? And I– I hated that the most. That was, that was horrible. But why we moved there and why we moved back? I don’t have the slightest idea. 

Where did you live? Were you in an apartment out there or in a house? 

Uh, we were in both. We moved to San Fran, we were in a house. We were living with my mother’s, uh, her boyfriend’s, uh, uh, family. And then we moved to an apartment. I think that was– I can’t remember where that was. I believe it was in Oakland? I’m pretty sure it was in Oakland. That might have been in San Fran, too, but I’m pretty sure at some point we lived in Oakland.

(00:06:24)

So you had– you had started school in New Jersey and then transferred, then started–

Yes.

So you were around 7 years old. 

Yes. 

So you were in first grade, second grade? 

I was, uh, I’m pretty sure I was in second.

What was that like? What was– what was school life like for you, concerning school? 

Uh. School was fun. It was fun, you know me. I mean it isn’t– it’s not that difficult at the time. You know me, so it’s like this, kids going, you know, to school and enjoyin’ other kids. 

Yeah. 

More than work and everything like that, you know. Uh, loved my teachers and everything. They were all great from what I can remember. Uh– Can’t remember the name of the school out there, but I remember out here, I know one of the schools was McAfee, I believe it was. At one or two. I can’t remember the other one. You know, like I said, I enjoyed it. Can’t really remember anything about school history in California. That’s, like, kind of cloudy. But I remember meetin’, uh, my Jersey.

How long were you in California for? 

About a year. Yeah. A year or two. It had to be about a year, a whole year. 

What was the reason for leaving? 

I don’t even know. Uh, I hope it was because I didn’t like it! (laughs) I would like to believe that. You know, uh, and hopefully my, you know, my mother probably was homesick too, ‘cause she’s a Jersey girl. So I would like to believe it was something around that.

How long was your mom in that relationship? 

She was, oof, forever! Yeah, uh– I believe they separated, ‘cause they later got married and then they separated about, I would say like 2000? 2005? Between, sometime around there. Yeah.

Is that the, uh, was that kind of your nuclear family your entire childhood or did you move, did you– (overlapping, inaudible) 

Well I was like, I was incarcerated when I was 15. So most of my upbringing was in prison. Uh, but up until that point, you know, uh– From 7 to about 13, like I said, we lived in New Brunswick. And then we moved to Trenton, New Jersey. Uh, lived there from 13 ‘til 15 when I was incarcerated. But he was, he was still, he was around. 

What was your– what was– when you moved back to the New Brunswick area, um, what school, was that when you were at McAfee, or? 

No, when I moved back to New Brunswick, uh, I went to Roosevelt for a little while, Roosevelt Elementary over there, I think it was– was it Livingston, or Lee Avenue, or somethin’? And then, uh, then I left there for a while and went to, uh, Red Bloomingdale, Sacred Heart on Commercial and Townsend. Uh, then after that I went back to Roosevelt and then Redshaw, which is down the street a little more from New Brunswick

(00:09:09)

Yeah. Um. And what did you– do you have any memories from, kind of, that time, from school? 

Well, Ritz, Ritz, I couldn’t stand Sacred Heart. It was just like– quiet. It was class and then that’s all you remember, it was just class. It wasn’t, like, it wasn’t no playin’ with friends in the hallways and runnin’ around and the gym was like, stringent? (laughs) You know, I mean. Everything was just like, it was, like, regimented and strict. Uh, so I didn’t really like that, know what I mean? Plus you had to, like, I mean, even like recess time you had to wear your– your outfit. You know, your tie, your vest and everything, playin’, you know, runnin’ around a yard in loafers. And I just couldn’t stand that, you know, bein’ in Roosevelt, you know, you wore your– your clothes. Know what I’m sayin’? And then I was always been athletic. You know I played, I used to play for, uh, New Brunswick Raiders. So, like, even like, during school in the morning before class had started we’d be in the front playin’ football, know what I mean? So it was, I loved that, bein’ at Roosevelt more. Plus all my friends went to Roosevelt. Uh, most of the people went to Sacred Heart were, they lived, like, in the outer area of New Brunswick. But, uh, everybody at Roosevelt and Red Shaw were central New Brunswick. 

So most of the kids that you were hanging out with, like, around that time, like, around late elementary or middle school, were they mostly school friends or were they mostly kids (overlapping) who were in the neighborhood or? 

(overlapping) Neighborhood and yeah, school friends, yeah. Or mostly, ‘cause. I mean, bein’ New Brunswick is so small. It’s like you pretty much know everybody, and plus I have a big family, so I’m a, you know, a Thompson, a Jackson, a Conover. The whole, you know what I mean? So it’s like, I have a lot of family, so a lot of my friends turned out later on to be my cousins and, you know, so. That worked out kind of strangely. 

What was the transition like? So if, you know, it’s kind of like that time– time when you transition from elementary to middle school, it’s kind of like a– can sometimes be a big thing. Is that– 

I kind of liked it. Uh, I guess, ‘cause when I went to, when I left Roosevelt, I went to Red Shaw, and they, you know, they showed me a lot of, uh, attention. You know, they made me, like, monitor, hall monitor, stuff like– they, you know, really liked me. Plus it was, like, classes were smaller? So you got more attention. So you know, like, worked out like that. 

Was the– was the kind of relationship you had with your mom’s boyfriend pretty consistent through that, that whole time? 

Yes, ‘cause I never liked him. Yeah I– I– I mean. There was– there was moments that were, you know, good, you know, ‘cause he played, he’s an athlete so he played a lot of softball, so. Goin’ to softball games and stuff like that, but. My father has always been in my life so it’s like, I never turned my mother’s boyfriend for advice or help for, you know what I mean? Uh, I just never had to. I never wanted to, but I never had to either.

(00:12:03)

And what’s your relationship like with your father? 

I mean, me and him, we were tight.

Yeah. 

We were tight. As a matter of fact he just fixed my lighter the other day in my car ‘cause my GPS broke it.

So when you were, um, was there ever a point when your mother and father were living together or in a relationship? 

Not, not, not while I was born.

Not when you were born? 

Whatever they had was before I was born. ‘Cause my father married my stepmother, uh, later on. My, my– I have, uh, two, two brothers and a sister through my stepmother so he– he married their mother.

So when you were a little kid, how did that– how– how did that relationship kind of work out? How, how much time did you spend–

Well, they were always workin’. Whenever.

Yeah. 

My father would come take me and, you know, there was– Bein’ that he had a– his father. From what he told me, his childhood was always rough. His father was always like, just a, just a hard man, not abusive or anything, but just hard. Uh, I guess growin’ up in the– in the, uh, south. He was still, his father, you know, so my father took the position that, “I’m always gonna show my kids that I love them.” So and then, even now, my father’s like, every time, every conversation, “I love you, I love you,” know what I mean? It’s like, “Alright, I’m 46, it’s been 46 years you’ve been sayin!” (laughs) You know, but uh. I kind of enjoy it because, like I said, he never got that from his father. Said, “I never remember my father sayin’ I love you. And that’s why I tell you all the time.” So. But– but like I said, ever since I was a child my father would always come and snatch me up. And I’ll be with my brothers and sisters and my cousins and we’ll go to family barbeques or just drivin’ around in his van. Just, know what I mean?

What do you think about that, about how your father is always expressing that? 

It’s cool. You know, it’s cool. ‘Cause it kinda opens you up to, uh– Bein’– being able to be sensitive. So, I can be that way with my son or my grandkids or my nieces and nephews, know what I mean? ‘Cause I’m always like that with them now, know what I mean? I– I– I’m able to share that. And it’s not this hard, urban, everybody’s gotta be tough’n cool’n, know what I mean? You know I– I– I can kiss my nephews, know what I mean? So they, they look forward to it now, know what I mean, ‘cause I hug’m and kiss’m, know what I mean? And my nieces and everything, so. 

So you, um– You’re the only child from your immediate parents’ relationship, but then you have step-siblings? 

Yes. Yeah. My mother and her husband had a– a– one son that was Anthony. Then my father has from his, um, marriage, he has three. My brother Jonelle, Raukeen, and Kalesha.

What’s the age difference between you and them? 

Not, not too far. Maybe like a year, me and my oldest brother Duran, maybe like a year? Then my sister maybe like a– two years? And then Anthony, I think Anthony is older than– yeah, ‘cause Anthony was born in ‘79. Uh, so he’s older than Raukeen, which is. So those two are about a year apart.

(00:15:03)

Do you have a close relationship with them? 

It’s– it’s– we’re buildin’ it. Me and my brother Raukeen, we’re closer. Uh, me and my brother Anthony are like, kind of like, tryin’ to put it back together (inaudible) a little– He– he has a little, like, expected animosity towards me for being away, for going to jail and feeling like, you know, I– I– I left him for– for his brother years. And I have a little animosity towards him because when I got out, come to find out he messed my license up. (laughs) Took me six months to fix that, you know what I mean? So. And I still haven’t gotten an apology yet! So. A, “my bad,” or, you know, I mean, “I had to,” or, you know, even an excuse! Know what I mean? And so. I have a little animosity towards, not even towards usin’ my name and messin’ it up. It was the fact that you can’t even bring it to yourself to say, “My bad.” You know what I mean? It’s already forgiven in my head but this is just somethin’ you have to do. You have to acknowledge that you did wrong. Like, like I did! (laugh) You know, I acknowledged my wrongs when I went to prison. I didn’t– Wasn’t trying to reject anything. “Oh, I didn’t do anything!” You know. In the beginning I did! ‘Cause I didn’t want to get caught. You know? But later on, reality sets in and, like, I did what I did, got what I got and– Let’s move on. (laugh) 

So when you, uh– Throughout middle school and high school, um, you kind of had this– you had groups of friends either through school or through– through the neighborhood. Were you– did you begin dating, kind of, in– at that period? Any romantic relationships?

I’ve always had, uh, girlfriends. I’ve just, well, I’ve always had a lot of girlfriends. Uh, I mean, my nickname was “Romeo” (laughs) so that really says a lot, so. Yeah, but I mean, one of my– my greatest girlfriends growin’ up was, uh, Patricia Rodriguez. We went to Roosevelt together. And were in, maybe like– maybe third grade to about sixth grade together? ‘Cause around sixth grade, that’s when I went to, uh, Red Shaw. And as a matter of fact, she had maybe like a year before that, she moved to, uh, Perth Amboy. So, uh, you know, I pretty much never saw her again. 

Um. You said you liked, uh, athletics, sports, were you– were you playing on the school teams? Or– 

No I, uh– New Brunswick Raiders is a city team? So I played, you know, uh, Pee Wees and, uh, Junior Pee Wees up until I moved to, uh, Trenton. And, uh, I never really got to sports in Trenton. Well, you know, I played baseball, and (inaudible) it was in the city– organized! Uh, it was mostly like friends gettin’ together to play. Um, Trenton, ‘cause it was still new to me? I didn’t know like the– the– the Leagues and where to go to sign up and it was a little, it’s more divided than New Brunswick.  I mean, New Brunswick is– wasn’t like it is now, like gangs and stuff like that. You know, you had your people from certain streets but, uh, when I got to Trenton, it was, like, really divided. It was like East Trenton against North Trenton, North Trenton against West Trenton. So it was like– Even if you did play, I mean, you’re gonna have a hard time gettin’ there from, (chuckle) you know, or bein’ at that wherever location you had to play or practice because they didn’t want you in their part. So. I just never, you know. That’s pretty much, that’s my sport. My athletic downfall was movin’ to Trenton.

(00:18:40)

What prompted the move to Trenton? 

I think, uh, well, the guys whose house we moved in, he was my mother’s friend from work. So I– I believe it was a– it was a bigger house than the one on Townsend. I think Townsend was a single floor. Uh, the one in Trenton was a– a three story. And the rent was the same, so. (laughs)

Yeah. Um, did you– were you– did you have any sort of after school jobs or, during that time, or? 

Did I? No. 

Alright. So what would be, like, kind of a typical day? You’d go to school and then hang out with friends afterwards? 

Well, mostly yeah. I would go to school. Uh, for a while I was still goin’ to school in New Brunswick, so we were gettin’ up, comin’ to school in New Brunswick until, you know, everything was transferred. Uh– So that was– that was– that was annoying and, uh, stressful as far as completing assignments and stuff like that. It just– it just cuts into your time to where, you know, that– that time is, it’s more about playtime than it is about school time. So they– that cut into it a lot. Um, then I finally went to, uh– I was enrolled in a– in the schools in Morrison County. Junior 2 I believe, yeah. Junior 2, and then I went to Junior 3. Um– (pause) That was– those were– those school systems were horrible. (laughs) 

(overlapping) How so? 

(overlapping) They were just, they were horrible. The, the– The learning atmosphere is just, I mean, it’s a school and you have desks and you have books, and then you have this– people that don’t, students that don’t want to be there. You know? So you’re surrounded with them, you know, and– and that atmosphere, you just, you lose interest as well. You know what I mean? ‘Cause you can’t focus and, from what I remember, most of the teachers didn’t really give a damn (laughs) You know? So. I mean. It’s to be expected from a, you know, I wouldn’t wanna– Put too much of a fight to teach kids that don’t want to, they weren’t interested in learnin’, so.

(00:20:51)

How did that make you feel? 

(pause) I mean, at the time it felt good. ‘Cause I wasn’t havin’ to do any work, (laughs) you know? Except for the classes that– classes that you did have to do assignments in, the teachers that were, like, you know, “I want my work done, we’re there to teach.” Uh, you know. But, uh, I mean, you were able to really focus on those classes because you knew that when I get to Mr. Wilde’s class, you know, that’s my playtime or that’s my goofa– know what I mean? Like, so I didn’t have a problem with it. 

What was, uh, what was your family life like when you were, had moved to Trenton.

Uh, my family life has always been good as far as, uh, things? You know, uh, uh, uh– ‘Cause my mother was a– I think she was an accountant for Opting Management Resources. Uh, or I think there’s a brokerage company or something like that in Princeton. Uh– So her income alone was supporting us. Her husband did odds and ends jobs, like I said, he’s just been an– a nothing guy his whole life. Or my whole life, rather. So his income really didn’t go to any type of upwards mobility. It was mostly my mother. So, uh, as far as bein’ provided for, you know. I had everything every Christmas. I was never without. Um– My whole thing was the– the verbal abuse and the physical abuse. (inaudible) But as far as, like, having things? I had things. Except, you know, just him not there. 

Was any of the abuse directed towards you during your childhood? 

Well, at times. You know what I mean? Like, uh. (pause) Like– like gettin’ bad grades or something or like, as a matter of fact, when I was little, I used to, you know, peed in the bed a lot. So he would, you know, beat me for that. And, you know, my mother’s position was, “Well, you know, he’s your father.” Know what I mean? So. So like I said, it was just a– There’s never been a break in me not likin’ him. I mean, he knows so much that I believe that just before I got out, he moved to Atlanta. I mean. I have no, you know, interest in hurting him now, know what I mean? But, uh, that’s just, but, that’s just how much, he knew that I disliked him. 

So when you moved to Trenton, that was around the same time that your grandfather passed away?  

No, my grandfather passed aw– we moved to Trenton– Maybe like three years before my grandfather passed. Maybe like four. ‘Cause my grandfather passed away while I was in a youth house for– for the crime that I was just released for. 

(00:23:37)

So when you were, uh, you were, so you’re interned for a couple of years. Then, um, what was the– what kind of led to this sequence of circumstances that got you into trouble?

Well like I said, uh, the friends I chose. You know. Uh, one particularly was my– my, who later became my son’s mother. Her brother, was uh– You know, he uh– (pause) I guess you could say big time drug dealer? But in another part of the city. Um, so you started seein’ him with stuff. And, you know, like, the latest things.You know, people wearin’ at the time, like sheepskins and bombers and thin scooters and then motorcycles, know what I mean? So yeah. And then, you wanted those. So from bein’ with him– like, later bein’ with him. ‘Cause I first started hangin’ out with his younger brother. But then, you know, he moved down South and then I was stuck with him. (inaudible) Close friend, they were my neighbor. Uh, so we started hangin’ and then– I developed an interest for, you know what I mean? And it seemed to be easy, so. ‘Cause he was dealin’ crack cocaine at the time. Uh, so he introduced me, you know, showed me how to make a little money. Then I made a little more, and then, it’s like the more wrong that you got away with, the bolder you became about doing wrong? Uh. And, you know, then one thing led to another and then eventually, like, there wasn’t a limit on wrong– it wasn’t drug dealing. It was– stolen cars. It was drug dealin’. It was fighting. It was, uh, carrying guns. You know, stuff like that. So the– the boundary or the fear, you know, became less, and you became more callous towards, uh, being caught or the fact that it was just morally wrong. You just, you lose all of that. 

Did you have– So, I mean, you were around 14, 15 years old when–

I was 15 when the– when the crime, yeah. I was 14 when I first started sellin’ drugs. Then 15 when I was incarcerated for the homicide.

Did– did anyone in your family– kind of notice? 

Well I always kept– I was– I was, like I said, my neighbor, he kept it away from home so I kept it away from home. Once he, once he, uh, ‘cause he, his– his children’s mother lived in, uh, in East Trenton. We lived in, that was, I lived, it was North Trenton. They lived in East Trenton. And her brother was like a big time drug dealer in that whole area. It was called the Wilbur Section. His name was, uh, Mike. “Money Mike.”  And, uh, you know, he was big in that area. So, I was able to not be around, you know, my immediate seven. You know, I would have never did it in New Brunswick because it’s just. My mother’s family is just that big and. And havin’, you know– The half that she isn’t related to, the other half that she grew up with are cops? So I would have never did that out there. But being that I was in New– Trenton, and nobody really knows me, nobody knows my mother, nobody knows that, “That’s Angela’s kid or that’s June’s kid,” know what I mean? I was able to, you know, get away with it.

(00:26:56)

Why was it important for you to keep it away from your mom? 

Well, she just wouldn’t have it. Yeah. She just– just, that’s just not her, uh, her bag of tea. Just. You know. Like I said, most of her family are cops. And, uh. Then and now, uh, you know her immediate– her cousins and her, you know, nephews and stuff, so. And– and, she and her father. So she just never grew up in that criminal atmo– I mean, even her, even her lowlife husband wasn’t a criminal. (laughs) Know what I mean? Not that I know of, if he did something wrong, he was, you know, he kept it pretty much secret ‘cause I didnt’ see him doin’ any, you know, bad things. He was just a bum as far as the word. And as bein’ a good person. 

You talked about kind of like the– it’s like you do something and it makes it easier to do the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Do you have a memory of, like, the first time you had to make a decision on whether or not you were doing something that your mother would approve of or wouldn’t approve of? 

Uh. You mean bad, something bad?

Mhm. 

Uh, the– the crack. Dealin’ crack.

Do you remember the first moment that’s approached to you as this is an opportunity?

Uh, yeah. My son’s mother, like I said, my son’s mother’s brother Daryl. He gave me, uh, they called the vials, the twenty dollar. Well, they were sellin’ them for ten at the time.  But out there, they were sellin’ them for twenty. And that’s why he made like, a little bit more than everybody else. So he gave me twenty to start me off. He was like, “Yo just, you know, do a deed.” And it was easy! And– and, you know. And. So then I would just call ree up when you, you know, you get more. And then I got more and then more, and then– But I always had, I never wanted to become, like, a big time drug dealer because it was just– It would expose me. Uh, so I tried, and you know, and that’s why, but then at the same time it was like a– a double-edged sword because I made money, only wanted to have money to get the things that, you know, my mother wouldn’t have bought me like, for instance, uh, the first thing I bought I believe was a scooter. Elites. They came out at the time. And, uh, you know, I had to keep, well I had to keep it away from home, but that’s the first thing I bought. Uh, but like I said, it was a double-edged sword because my mother was providing me with everything that I pretty much wanted. I mean, if I wanted a sheepskin then that’s what I got for Christmas. But. I wanted– A green and a blue and a red one, you know what I mean? That’s what I wanted to get for myself. But I had to hide all that stuff, know what I mean. And that’s why I made a lot of money, because I tried not to spend it on things that she would notice in the house. A few times, she’d– she’d notice certain things, but she never knew like, like, more clothes or certain clothes. But she never knew if my father gave it to me. Like, no, she never questioned me about it. Because she, she’s, I guess she just wouldn’t believe or assume that I was doin’ somethin’ like that. So. I was never approached with that suspicion, that cloud of suspicion was never over me from her because, you know– And, uh, like I said, she wasn’t hearin’ my name in the streets ‘cause she’s not from Trenton, so she’s not hearin’ it from anybody who would say that, “Angela, your son is doin’ this!”

(00:30:18)

Did you ever have times during that period where you were debating stopping doing that or was it? 

 Actually, when my son was born? Uh, it's crazy because, uh, the guy that we robbed, the one that we, uh, I did the time for, um, he was the– he was I guess you could say a friend? Yeah, he was a friend. But he had a lot of money. So. Me and my co-defendant, you know. He, my co–  well actually my co-defendant used to work for me, he used to sell drugs for me. And he fell into debt, if we go back a little more, he fell into debt with me because I had crashed on the scooter that I had bought? Broke my leg and I had $2,000 in cash on me. And, uh, I didn’t want my mother to know, ‘cause they, you know, they– they all came to the hospital the night that I crashed. And, uh, the nurse wanted to take my money and put it in an envelope for me. But I didn’t want my mother to know, so I told my co-defendant to take it. Uh. You know. He worked for me at the time, I didn’t think that he would, you know, spend it all while I was in the hospital. So, you know, he did that. And, uh, and that was, uh, the reason I had so much money on me, ‘cause I was collecting all my money because my girlfriend had just told me that she was pregnant. And I was gonna stop doin’, sellin’ drugs because my son was gonna be born. Uh. (pause) No, as a matter of fact he was born. And then I was gonna stop sellin’ drugs because he was born. Uh, so everything was like, pretty much, a– a clean house. So I was gettin’ everything. So then, when I got outta the hospital and, you know, everything slowed down then because I had a cast up from the tip of my toes to my thigh. So there wasn’t too much action goin’ on except for the few guys who worked for me, bringin’ me money and stuff. Uh. So I finally got out my cast and, uh, you know, finally caught up with my co-defendant– who later became my co-defendant. Uh, goin’ like, you know, “I want my money!” So he suggested that we rob Tony. Know what I mean? He said that, you know, “We can get more from Tony and I get you what, you know, what I owe you, and plus what we get from him.” So, uh, I– I– I was like “Uh.” Then I thought about it for a few days, and then I was like, “What the hell,” uh, “we can do it.” ‘Cause I knew Tony’s schedule, so I figured that we could do it while he was gone. But, while we were doin’ it, you know, he came in, he walked in on us, and that’s when my co-defendant opened fire on him. Yeah, but. Just before that, you know, this was– this was supposed to be, like, the last of my criminal activity. Because I wanted to be there for the birth of my son and I ended up not being there for the birth– well, I was there for the birth, but. My son was born, uh, January 20th, 1990. I was incarcerated, uh– In 1988. And I was incarcerated, March 2nd in 1988. 

(00:33:11)

What was it like becoming a father?

I was nervous at first, ‘cause I was more partic– uh, uh, uh, concerned about what my mother would say. With, um, but she was more– I guess con– uh, not confused, uh– (pause) I guess she didn’t know how to react to it because she was happy she was gonna have a grandkid, but at the same time, you’re not ready to be a father. You know? But, uh, it wasn’t as bad as I expected it to be once she found out. 

Mhm. 

Uh.  So I was able to– I pretty much enjoy the little time that I get– got to be a father.

Mhm. 

Uh, you know, like I said, my girlfriend, she lived next door, right? Our house was here, the driveway and then their house, so it was like, I was there every day. Um, and you know, I enjoyed it. You know, just. ‘Cause I always– Being that there was too many kids in our family, I was always like, I already knew how to change Pampers and, and, and, know what I mean, deal with babies and kids and stuff. But, uh, just havin’ my own and bein’ able to smell them and lay there with’em on my chest and go to his mind’s, uh– For that moment, I mean, for that– for the time I got to be with him was joyful. But then the times that I, you know, from my incarceration, you know. His mother used that like, as– as– used my son as leverage to try to use him as leverage over me to, like uh, make me pay for the times that I cheated on her and, know what I mean? So that kind of much put– that put a, you know, pretty big strain on– Our, seeing each other ‘cause, whenever I seen the mother, my mother had to, like, literally– Take him and– and bring him to see me. Usually, like, she was like, “Nah, I don’t want him to go today and–” Know what I mean?

Mhm. 

Just– just playin’ games, though. There was no reason or nothing. Just playin’ games, and uh– So that was, that was a whole crazy situation. (chuckle) 

(00:35:14)

Um. So the– the– the incident happened and then what happened next? 

Uh– Well, the incident happened, uh, you know, Tony, like I said, Tony walked in on us, uh. That’s the victim’s name. Uh, Tony walked in on us, my co-defendant opened fire on him. Uh, after that, you know, we left the house. Went over, uh, went over my, uh, other girlfriend’s house for a while. So then we stayed there for a couple hours and then I had to go pick up my little brother from school ‘cause, uh– You know, that’s what I usually did every day. I got up to school and then I would go pick him up. Um. So then at that time, my co-defendant went his own way. So I didn’t see him for the rest of that day, so later on– Uh, being that, you know, like I said, we knew the victim. Um, the police came and asked me, you know, if I would make a statement about Tony, know what I mean. You know. Every– everybody that knew him, my mother, everybody had to make a statement. So I said alright, but it was late, so– I came at the next day. Uh, the next, uh, that was, that happened on the first. The second, you know, they came to my aunt’s house to pick me up, said, “you know, we would like you to make the statement now.” Uh. So I go to, you know, the police station. Um, make the statement. You know, like– Uh, everything was, everything I said was consistent with what they asked. Um, like where was I, this and that. But it’s not what they wanted, uh, they knew already that I was involved because, you know, unbeknownst to myself, my co-defendant had discussed this with one of his friend’s mother. Like, “What should I do?” Know what I mean? So, but she had went to the police already and told them that my nickname was Bookey? Like, my family name, or immediate family, they called me Bookey. Uh, “That Bookey, Romeo, Ace was the one that killed Tony.” So, uh, so they– they had– they had this information already, so they come, you know, come get me at my aunt’s house, take me, uh, to the police station. My family’s with me, uh, they separated us immediately  Uh, I was never Mirandized– took me in a room. Uh, began questioning me, like I said. You know, I answered them accordingly, to what I wanted them to know. Uh, but then, you know, maybe a few hours later, maybe like four or five hours later, they begin to, uh, I guess get agitated and start with the suggestive questioning, and, “But weren’t you this and weren’t you here, and–” And, “And didn’t you wear this? But I thought you said you wore this.” Know what I mean? So I say where they’re goin’ now, so– so they finally come out and say, “Well, you know we have Power” which is my co-defendant’s nickname at the time. “We have Power in the next room and he’s saying that you killed, uh, Tony No– Anthony Novak.” Uh, so I’m like, “Nah,” I said, “Let me sp– let me see him!” (laugh) You know, “Let me– I wanna hear him say this!” They’re like “Nah.” I mean. “But he’s sayin’ that you did it.” And uh– uh– They said, uh–and I had some like, in my head at the time it had validity to it because they’re sayin’ well, they knew where, uh, “Didn’t you have a red jacket on, red jeans?” So I’m like, “Yeah, so,” I’m like, in my head, I mean it makes sense, he must be around because, I mean, he’s the only one that seen me that, you know, that day at that time. With what I had on. 

(00:38:42)

So, uh, so okay, I went like, “Alright, he’s tellin’ on me! Jeez, I’m gonna say he did it!” Know, which he did do it, but, you know, that’s my opened up. So then still without bein’ Mirandized, you know, the police came back in and, uh, took a– a more formal statement. Uh, you know, typewriter and everything. ‘Cause, like I said before that they– they– they, the questioning that they were doing? They didn’t have a recorder, they didn’t have a typewriter, they didn’t write it down because they knew where they wanted to go. I– I mean, I know this now, but, uh, they knew where they wanted to go. They had the– the token black officer in there to make me feel comfortable and everything, know what I mean, they did the whole, you know, whole nine. Um, but after I said that my co-defendant, you know, I started to open up, know I made a self-incriminating statement, like, “Yeah, I was there that day, this that.” Uh, you know, “We went to rob Mr. Novak. Uh, my co-defendant shot him.” That’s when they, you know, brought in the typewriter and the recorder and everything was, like, formal and rigid. But they still never Mirandized me or anything, but, you know, still never brought my parents in, still never told my mother or anything, you know, that– that I was responsible for the murder until afterwards, like, when they got their statement and like, uh, initialized it and everything. Uh, that’s when they, you know.  (inaudible) Read me my rights and they, “You’re under arrest now,” you know.

What was that– what was that like for you, going through that for two weeks? 

It was, uh– It was a, the– the black cloud. It was, you know what I mean? You really felt the black cloud on you. Because, uh, I mean the weight of the world is coming down on you, but at the same time the whole family is out there, so that’s like another weight of the world, when they gonna find? You know, when they find out that you were involved in this. Uh, that was like, you know– That wasn’t cool at all.

Mhm. Do you remember that first moment when you saw your family after all of this was–(overlapping, inaudible) 

(overlapping) Well they were, yeah, after, uh– After they had, uh, arrested me and everything, um, I sat in the room for a while and then– (pause) What happened– No, before I sat in the room, after that I made the statement. Uh, and I initialized and everything. Then they brought my mother in to witness the initially, I mean, initializing my– my statement. Uh, which was like, pretty much like– Weird because she didn’t, she wasn’t a witness to me makin’ it. 

(00:41:19)

Mhm. 

Uh, but anyway, she did that, so then after, after she left, you know, they let her see me for a minute. And then they took her out and then they, uh, sent, uh, the officer and the cops swabbed my hand for gun residue. Um, then after that, you know, they told me they, you know, I was gonna be arrested and taken to the youth detention center. Um, but before I left, you know, they had my whole family to come in and stuff like that, so everybody was pretty much, like, crying and in shock and. And. And trying to figure out like, like, what do we do next? You know, they’re asking (inaudible) asking the officers and detectives, uh, “Do we need a lawyer? Who should we call? What can we do tonight? Can we, does he have to,” know what I mean? “Does he have to go to jail?” Stuff like that. So that was– that was pretty stressful, seein’ all them. I guess that, seein’ them like that. You, kind of like, made you lose sight of the crime and what just happened, and you’re more like, mhm, empathetic towards your family then, you know, and how they’re feelin’ and what they’re goin’ through and everything else.

Mhm. (pause) Um, what was your first night in the detention center like? 

It was uh– (pause) It was like– it was– it was– it was strange, ‘cause it’s like, uh, I got in maybe about 8 o’clock. Which, uh, they have colors is, uh, I think blue was like a low-level, or the colors are levels. Blue was like, uh, low. (phone vibrating in background) And then I think there was green and then tan and then gold. And the– so at the time I was, uh, you know, bein’ that I’m just comin’ in, I’m new. So– I guess we were up, it was up to green level? And they all, each one goes to bed at that time, like, blue goes to bed at like 6 o’clock, the red goes at like 7, then, you know all the way up. So. Both– and– and– and not too many people stay in– in gold and tan because there’s a high level and most candidates is always fightin’. So now, you know, it’s, um, (chuckle) When I get there, everybody’s pretty much asleep, and then two guys, you know, maybe like two or three guys who were able to stay in gold, you know, just comin’ down. So the whole, the– the tier was quiet, the unit was already real quiet. They– they– they used to play, (phone vibrates in background) um– Play the radio, like, the officers would have a– a radio in the unit?

Yeah. (phone vibrates in background) 

And they would play that. 

Do you, do you need to check that? 

No. 

Alright.  

So they would play that. Uh, so that’s, you know, you see, pretty much just whatever the officer played at the time, reggae or whatever. That was playin’ and everybody else was quiet and then, so you’re just layin’ in the bed, just like, you hear, you know, a few doors, like I said, from the other colors that were out. You hear the doors slammin’ and stuff like that. Then, uh– (pause) You really know, I mean. Bein’ that, I mean– They had to come get me around one o’clock. I didn’t get there until about 8:00 maybe? Um, so I was pretty much tired from sittin’ there answerin’ questions.

(00:44:29)

Mhm. 

Uh– Burnin’ my brain out tryin’ to allude, you know, the questions and stuff like that. Uh, so I was pretty much like, like, fatigued mentally and physically. So I just remember just layin’ there and just listenin’ to the sounds and, like, hatin’ the smell. It smelt like, uh, Colgate and Safeguard. 

Mhm. 

‘Cause like when the colors come down, they– they– they have to shower before they lock in? So you still smell that– that– that, you know, the aroma in the air. And, uh, it was dark, ‘cause it was the– (pause) I can’t remember the room number. But the– the first corridor of, or like, orientation or, or– Sometimes whenever they needed to be locked-up cells because they didn’t have a toilet and it just had the bed and that’s it. But no sink, no toilet or nothin’. So I was in there, just like layin’ there. And just like, the whole night was just– (pause) It all doesn’t register, it’s not registering yet. You just like, your mind is like– (pause) When is it gonna end? The– that’s the– the– what you, what you’ve done. ‘Cause you’re more focused on gettin’ away with it at this point, then you’re feeling sympathetic or empathetic towards the victim and his family and, and your family. You– you– your whole mindset at that time is just like, how the hell do I get out of this? (laughs) You know. That’s pretty much what ran through my mind at 100 miles an hour until I fell asleep. (pause) 

What was kind of like the next phase of time like or the next–

Um. The next day– Um, you know you come out and you go to the mess– I think I had a fight my first day there. Uh, ‘cause nobody really knew me. Know, most of the guys that were in the youth house, they’d been gettin’ locked up since they were like 7 or s– know what I mean? So they were, like, regulars, so nobody really knew me and, like I said, I wasn’t dealin’ with too many people in Trenton, I’m still new in Trenton. Except for the area that I sold drugs in. Uh, must be East Trenton. No, nobody really knows me. So a guy, Red Armstrong– I can’t remember his left– I think it was Jamal– they called him Red. It was like King Yellowman. He cut me in the line. And, uh, I just remember just, just beatin’ the hell out of, I did that, the little hockey move. I pulled his shirt over his head and then I– I beat the brakes off him. Uh– So I remember the officers– they were kind of hesitant on their reactions towards me, ‘cause they knew some of the people that I knew, like the drug dealers and their gains. So they, you know, they were, like, hesitant towards, like– usually they’ll just brutalize you if, most of– most of the times in prison? Jail, youth house, county, detention center, youth detention center. When the officers jump on you they jump on you. Uh, but I didn’t get that treatment. Um– So I ended up, um, (chuckle) it’s crazy ‘cause, my first, second, well, my first whole day there, uh, it’s called a major? The charge that you get is a major. So that’s three days– each incident is three days. 

(00:47:35)

So my first day there, I’m sittin’ in the, uh, I’m just, I’m locked in. Until, uh, my Raymond hearing which is, uh, at nine o’clock, the court, uh, sheriff come get you at 9:00. Take you to the courthouse and you see the judge around 11:00 or 12:00, so you’re just sittin’ in a holdin’ take. Uh. Bein’ that I had a more serious– there was only like, I think, I think I was the only one charged with murder in the youth house? So– I sat in a, the holdin’ cell by myself when I got there. Um, that was brutal because they were just paintin’ it and, uh, puttin’ sheetrock up so, the, you know, that smell? The fresh paint and the sheetrock smell. So I’m just sittin’ in there all day waitin’ while everybody else is goin’ to court. I had to wait for a more serious judge, which had known. So then, you know, I go to court, I’m ordained and stuff like that, of the charges. Uh. (pause) No one– one– one count of normal purpose for murder, two counts of felony murder. Um. (pause) Unlawful possession of a weapon. (pause) One count of burglary and I think robbery. I believe it was robbery. Seven altogether. There might have been another one. Might have been two weapons charges. But whatever, they break that up depending on how they want too–

There were two counts, two counts of murder? 

No– yeah, two counts felony murder. One count of, one, one count of knowing and purposeful–

Oh. 

Two counts of felony. Uh, which were just– Pretty much pilin’ on. Which is a thing that they do. Um. So, you know, get the charges, it– it still doesn’t– know what I mean. Like I said, I wasn’t initiated into the criminal life fully, so I don’t know, you know, what none of this means. Um. Somethin’ like, whatever! (laugh) You know, I’m just wanna know when do I get out. You know. So I go back, you know, to the cell. Like I said, when I get back to the youth house. I’m lockin’ in, because I had to spend three days in for the fight, I have to spend three days in my cell. Uh. But you come out for visits. So later on that day my family came to see me. My mother– well, they allowed my girlfriend in. It’s only supposed to be immediate, um, family. Like your moth– your parents and. They don’t even let your siblings in actually. Um, but then, they did at that time because, bein’ that I had a serious charge, they just, they try to be– they try to be complimentary towards you because they don’t know how you’re gonna react if you’re– if you’re– if you’re like a true murderer? Or somebody that just made a mistake. So they just treat you like you’re a true murderer. Until they figure it out. So they pretty much just give you what you want. 

(00:50:24)

So they allowed my girlfriend to come in, uh, and my brothers and sisters and everybody to come in. My grandfather came. Um– My mother, her– her husband came. The– They sat to visit for a while and, no, nobody talked a– you know, nobody discussed the crime. Nobody, you know, it was just, it was just like, I guess Tommy Hill. Or, or– Structure or strategy. Because nobody, you know, nobody– No one asked me, “Why did you do it? How do you feel right now?” They were just like pretty methodic. My, my, uh, I remember my mother and my girlfriend were cryin’ the whole time, and that’s pretty much what I remember. But you can, I can feel the, uh, (pause) I guess sometimes it’s what people don’t say? That, that says a lot. And the fact that my grandfather didn’t say anything about it, I knew, I, you know, I could feel the, the uh, the disgust. Know what I mean? But he wouldn’t say it. Know what I mean? He just– He just wouldn’t. You know what I’m sayin’? I remember all that.

Did you want to talk about it at the time or were you relieved (clears throat) that you weren’t talking about? 

Yeah I– I didn’t want to talk about it. You know. Like I said, ‘cause I knew the victim, so I was, I was still like a little sad that he– he was– he was murdered. But at the same time, just like, it’s like, uh, it’s like fight or flight at this time. And it was just like, how do I get out of this situation? But nah, it wasn’t until like– I didn’t really develop a– empathy towards the victim until, like, later on. It was like five years later when I start to– I guess you could say, like, meet social workers and stuff like that. So you– you, you know. You take in programs and anger management and stuff like that. So you start to develop a– a, (pause) I guess you could say an, um, just, uh. You know, you start to develop something for the victim. Or, not even towards the victim at the time. You start to develop a, an– an– a cognizance of what you’ve done. And you learn about morals, and you learn about ethics, and you learn about the fact that you violated this stuff. You– you violated the social norm, and– and value systems and stuff. And that’s when you start to, you know, realize that, “Okay, I messed up.” Uh– And then you start to, uh–(pause) You know, ‘cause along that time you run into other people who, who lose people? And you start to see it, you start to see how, you know, bein’ that, ‘cause like, prison is a highly concentrated area of this– this– the state’s most worst people. So, and some of them come from some of the state’s most, you know, worst spots.

(00:53:18)

So, you start to see how people react to– When they get the phone call that their loved ones has been shot and killed, know what I mean? So you start to see. You see how– The victim must be feelin’. You don’t just, like, know what I mean? So when you see this guy breakin’ down and he can’t come out his room because his brother was just killed, it got me thinkin’ like, “Damn. That’s how Tony’s mother felt. Or that’s how his brother felt.” You know. And this guy, he tried to kill himself because his mother was just raped. Like, damn. Know what I mean? So you develop– you lose your callousness and start to develop a–  a– a conscience. Of, you know, what you love. And you start, you start to see other people victimized. Uh, and you start to see what your victim has gone through. Or with your victim’s family has gone through. And– and, you know, this keeps goin’ on. You found out what your family is goin’ through. Uh, you, you know, you develop, you develop a consciousness of what they go through, like, when they, you know, they’re cryin’ when you call home for Christmas and you can’t be there. Like the first– as the years go, it becomes less hard, but it is still the same. People go, “Oh, we want you there. And we did this, and oh man, goin’ to the Bahamas just isn’t the same.” Know what I mean? And, and so. And all that stuff, like, goes towards makin’ like, never again. Whenever I get my chance, never again. Yeah. 

You had mentioned something earlier about, kind of like, when they were allowing, kind of visitation for you, kind of allowing an expanded visitation, and that decision making process, where they’re trying to determine– I guess maybe what, like, your character is. 

Yeah, yeah. 

You know? What– what’s that– what’s that process about? What’s the–

Well, uh, um– Officers I became cool with later on, Eric Baldwin, know what I mean– We became, like, real tight. Real cool. But, uh–c ool enough for him to tell me that later on that– The reason that he was able to be cool with– with me without it bein’ fraternizing was the fact that the– the administration had put him–he was pretty much my– my eyes. He was, know what I mean, to be with me, to be cool with me. To– to access me at every moment of my– my bid. And each shift had an officer like that. Um– (pause) Yeah so that’s, you know. (laughs)

 (00:55:52)

So it’s kind of something that was very intentional in being up in–(overlapping, inaudible)

(overlapping) Oh yeah, it was definite– yeah, it was intentional, it was definitely intentional, yeah. Yeah I– I never would have thought about it until he told me that, know what I mean? That, that was his whole purpose. And that’s why he was always, always around me or always in, like, encouraging me or, know what I mean? “What do you need?” And all that stuff like that. He was like, “Yeah, they, the administration, that was my job, you know, to be like, to access you.” Not access me from a scholastic point but just from an– an officer. He was a regular officer, he wasn’t a special operations or nothin’, he was just a regular guy who could just get cool with this guy so we know when he’s about to explode, if he’s about to explode.

Did you ever have moments where you felt a lot of pressure? Where you felt– (pause) 

I mean you had some good days and some bad days and all that was contingent on what happened in court. 

Mhm hmm. 

Like I remember, um– My Miranda hearin’. I had a Miranda hearin’. No, no, no, it was a– Well, to back up, I guess back up a little. Um, no, it was the juvenile waiver hearin’. I had to go to juvenile waiver hearin’. Which is pretty much a hoax. Because they’re gonna waive you up no matter what.

Why is that? 

That’s just how they do it. It’s just, serious charges, the court just, I mean we call it mandatory waiver. Um. But, you know, they go with your whole formal thing, court hearing. ‘Cause I had a psychologi– well, a clinical psychologist come and testify in court on my behalf that, “Yeah, this kid, you know, is redeemable.” You know what I mean? “(inaudible) Wagner, which is board tellin’, sittin’ up there in five years and there’s a possibility he’ll be rehabilitated.” But they still wake me up! (laugh) You know. So. It’s just. It’s a mandatory system. 

(00:57:52)

What do you think about that? 

Well, that– that, I mean, even now, I’m tryin’ to waive, you know, flags about it. I mean, they’re so called doing it better and they’re trying to, uh, put up the facade that things are changin’, but it’s still the same. Uh, they just do it a different way now, you know. They have, now they have like grading systems and points and. But everybody’s still gettin’ waived up. If a– if a 10 year old kills somebody they want to waive him up to an adult court. And charge him in front of people who they call his peers, (chuckle) but none of them, none of the people on the jury are 10 years old or 11 years old. Or 12, it’ll be 12 by the time he goes to trial ‘cause they make you sit in county for two years. Or, you know, they make you sit around waitin’ for the trial for two years. 

Mhm. So what was that, that kind of waiting time for you like? 

(pause) I guess it was more of a– a preparation for– Doin’ the big time. ‘Cause I mean, you just, you– you become, I guess through the two years you become accustomed to prison life? So you become accustomed, you know. To the mills, you mean– (pause) And what I mean accustomed, you just become, like, instead of sliced tomatoes it’s not canned tomatoes and it doesn’t bother you as much anymore, ‘cause it’s like, it’s– it’s– it’s pretty much affected your taste buds, you know, like canned taste? You become used to it and, you know, it’s like that across the board with everything. It’s like the food, you become accustomed to the food. You become accustomed to waking up every day, brushing your teeth at a certain time, when you’re gonna have yard, you know. But some of the stuff you had to fight for because– For a long time, guys kept escaping? Out of the youth detention center. So they wouldn’t have yard. 

Mhm. 

So, you know, you had to, you had to pretty much– and when you want something in prison there’s– there’s no easy way to get it except through acting up. You know what I mean– you can write a request. You can ask the officer, you know, “You know why? We need sun!” And it’s not until you act up that somebody decides, like, the only way to calm these guys down is to give them yard! (laughs) Or some type of yard. And so.

(01:00:16)

And where was the– the detention center? Where was that? 

In Mercer County. On Parkside Avenue in Mercer County. In Trenton, New Jersey. (person talking faintly in background)

So, is there anything, (sigh) I mean, you want to talk about in terms of the trial or that whole process? 

Um, let me see– leading up to the trial. I guess I had the waiver hearing, (talking in background continues faintly) and then I had a Miranda hearing because, like I said, they never Mirandized me when they first, you know, took the initial statement. I was never Mirandized. So we had a whole, you know, my– my lawyer raised, he took issue with that and we tried to fight it and everything, but I mean, it’s pretty much all the court had because at the time, as far as they knew, my co-defendant wasn’t gonna testify against me in court. Uh, so pretty much that’s all they had, you know. That was my– my, uh, self-incriminating statement was the legs of their case. So, I mean, the lawyer even said (door closes in background), “There’s– there’s no way they’re gonna– even though they were wrong, you weren’t Mirandized. I mean, it’s clear, state of Arizona, they violated all of that.” Know what I mean? Blah blah blah, “They’re gonna waive you up because they, that’s the only case, you know, without it they don’t have a case.”

Mhm. 

Uh. So I’m waived up. I’m gonna wait, you know, the two years, waitin’ for the court. Um– I mean, waitin’ for trial. Finally, before the trial, maybe like, uh, I went to trial– I think I went to trial around April. It might have been mid-April. Around December of the year before that. Or, between December and January of ‘90. Uh, ‘89 and ‘90. The judge calls me into the court and says, uh, “Your lawyer, uh, um– Your personal attorney has, uh, (inaudible) Luke has been disbarred.” Uh, I believe it was embezzlement or something like that I– I mean I got him from New Brunswick, and he was cheap ‘cause he went to college with my uncles, somethin’ like that. Uh, but he was a trial specialist, so that’s why, you know, they chose him. Um, so–

Was that the first time you had heard, heard about that?  

About him bein’–

Yeah. 

Well it was, it was, yeah, the first time I heard about the embezzlement, but I had heard he was usin’ drugs before, know what I mean? Because I think he had– I’m not sure, he was arrested or he got to a situation where I was at court waiting for him and then, (laughs) they called and said you know, “Luke’s not gonna make it, he was detained for somethin’,” know what I mean? So that was the first time. But then a year, uh, a year and a half later before trial was when, uh, he was knocked off for whatever he did. Um, yeah, so they called me to court. Judge tells me that, uh, either need to find another personal attorney or the state will find one. Uh, bein’ that we had gave him, you know, most of what we had, you know, there was a possibility (thunk in background) of getting me another personal attorney–

MAN IN BACKGROUND: Oh, I’m sorry–

(01:03:21)

[END OF RECORDING ONE]

[BEGINNING OF RECORDING TWO]

(00:00:00)

(door slams) They tell me that, uh, you know, I either have to get another personal attorney or the state will provde one. Uh, like I said, we used all of our money, uh, resources for that, you know, that were, that were available. Uh, ‘cause, you know, my family has their life too, (inaudible). So, uh, they called me, maybe like, uh, no they don’t call me– maybe like about two weeks later maybe? Maybe a week. Can’t really, uh, estimate time right now. But, uh. And the lawyer had a– a attorney comes into the youth house and tells me that, “Yeah, I’m Scott Cransney, the state appointed me. I’m a pull attorney. Uh, I’m gonna do this, this, and this, and this. Uh, you know. Pretty much in, he was– he was sent to prepare me for trial and– and then, and then fight it, um. I mean. While the state had two years to prepare, he only had two or three months. So, you know, I guess he did his best for, you know, what I can like, guess, assume. Um, so we go to trial. That’s a two, two, maybe like three, three to four week trial? Uh. Yeah. Maybe it was four weeks. Every day except Friday– we didn’t go. Friday and the weekends. Uh– Go to trial. At trial, we have another waiver hearing because, like I said, the– the state, you know, the old statement situation was sketchy so they have another waiver– um, uh, Miranda hearing. And, uh, on the state level while I’m an adult now. And it goes the same way it did when, the one we had in the youth house. Uh, the– the state needed it. It was a (inaudible), they needed the case, so they needed it so the state, you know, the judge just pretty much allowed it. Um. So we go to trial. Um– Like I said, four, maybe four weeks. And then– (pause) the daaaay– I think, I believe it was May 9th. You know, everything was done and they made the, um, deliberation. Um May– uh, the jury deliberated for maybe, like, about– for three hours. Um, it was a jury– let me see, it was, uh, fourteen people. Yeah, uh, fourteen people, two of them were alternates, uh, there was twelve whites and two Blacks, two Black ladies. Um, the alternates were a part of the deliberation– they all went into the room to deliberate.  Came back about three or four hours later and found me, uh, innocent of the known and purposeful, but guilty of the felony and– and weapons-related charges. 

(00:02:43)

What was that like when the verdict came through? 

Well, my heart sunk when I first heard “not guilty” ‘cause, like I said, ‘cause at– even at this time, I mean, ‘cause there’s, there’s, uh, the youth centers aren’t anything like the counties, so they don’t have a law library, they don’t have paralegals or anything to hell– I mean, uh– uh– uh, help you or assist you with your case. Or inform you. So I’m thinkin’ like, as soon as I hear not guilty on the murder I’m like, “Okay.” You know? Everything else is like whatever. And then they say, you know, even, even when they say “guilty” on the two counts of guilty, I’m like I’m not guilty of murder, so I’m eventually goin’ home. But knowin’ that felony murder’s the same as knowing and purposeful murder time-wise. So, uh, so until I figured all this out, you know, which was maybe like two days later, (inaudible) thirty days later. ‘Cause it wasn’t until, uh, as a matter of fact, May 9th is when I was found guilty. They sent– they didn't take me back to the youth house, ‘cause they were afraid I was gonna escape. They sent me to the county. Bein’ that I’m only 17 at the time, uh, you know, ‘cause I waited for the two years. Uh, they put me in the, in the, uh, uh– uh– Not public, uh– PC. Protective custody. They put me in protective custody until I become of age. Uh, as soon as I turned– that was May 9th. I turned 18 on June 9th. So then, that day they put me in– in– in general population. And I’m able to, you know, move around and find out, you know, from the old, older guys who have pretty much been initiated to the crime life, uh. They begin to tell you about your case and, “Oh you should do this and do this,” and “Go to the law library, you gotta fight this!” You know what I mean? They push you in all different directions. So that’s– then that’s– that’s when I find out that, you know, I’m still gonna do 30 to life. You know? Even though I was found guilty, I mean innocent of knowin’ and purposeful murder. That I’m still gonna do the same amount of time because, uh– They care, you know, it’s, uh– I forgot the, uh, Mens, I believe it’s Men Rea or something, “of like mind,” or somethin’ like that. Uh. You know, they say it’s like, you know, if you’re involved in a felony murder then your, your mindset was just like the murderer. So. The– the charges are the same. I mean, the time carries. 

(00:05:13)

So then, uh, you were in, uh– (sniff) That prison, private, up until you were with them? Uh– 

The count– well, I was in the county, yeah. I stayed in the count– I went straight to the county that night. The night they found me guilty I went right to the country. Put me in PC until I turned 18, 18 they put me in general pops. They there, from– from May 9th until August 10th, which is when– yeah, August 10th is when they sentenced me.

Mhm hm. 

Uh– You know, we went to court. Um, lawyer tried to fight it, you know, juvenile issues, first time offender. Uh, he’s young, he’s, uh, he was in school at, uh, mitigating, trying to use the mitigant– uh, mitigating factor. Like, he was young, he comes from a good family. Uh, he was in school at the time. He has an older adult co-defendant– I was 15, my adult, my co-defendant was 19 at the time.  Uh, you know, he was trying to use all the mitigating stuff, but the judge just wasn’t havin’ it. 

Mhm. 

He, uh, pretty much dismissed the mitigating factors and just added a whole bunch of aggravated factors, which was that I knew the victim. Uh, bein’ that I knew him I should have took, uh, the initiative to prevent the crime from happening. Uh, the way it was carried out. Uh, the fact that he was shot, uh, six times– well, five times. Uh, you know, he used all those aggravating factors to still give me the 30 to life. So, uh, got the sense of me– it still doesn’t hit, you know. ‘Cause the whole time your, “Oh, don’t worry about it,” you know, your lawyer’s tellin’ you, “You don’t worry, laws change, you’ll never do the whole thing. The laws change. They can’t do this.” You know, “The appeal, you have a right to an appeal.” Uh. I mean. When they, when they say that, you automatically assume you have a right to a new trial? You know what I mean, that’s how they, that’s how it’s worded. It’s like, you have a right to appeal, so you’re gonna, you’re gonna get another shot at this. Uh, but you don’t get another shot at it, it’s just havin’ a right to an appeal. Which is, uh, usually denied on, uh, uh– I mean, e– even the stuff that, like I said, the, like, this is a Supreme Court issue is the– the statement. Uh, this is a Supreme Court issue. So it’s no light thing. But they still hit you with, uh, harmless error and say, you know I mean, “It didn’t affect the outcome of the trial.” What do you mean? It’s– it’s the meat of the trial! You know? Without a statement you wouldn’t have a trial! You know? You would have came, matter of fact, you would have came at me with a– with a deal like you do everybody else that you can’t prove, uh– So that whole, the appeal process takes about a year? (inaudible) Um. So just waitin’ for that. Let me see– Uh, at least, well, August, like I said, August 10th I was sentenced. ‘Bout maybe at September 25th I believe I was sent from the county to Yardville. Um– (pause) As soon as I got there, I had met people there who, like, welcomed me. Who, uh, left the, uh, youth house before me. Now they were there. They pretty much gave me the breakdown of how the jail was runnin’. Well, it was– it was a correctional facility. So it– it– it’s nothing like a prison. Um, it was more educational-oriented. Um, so. I had a, ‘cause I immediately enrolled in school. Um, so I did school.

(00:08:51)

Had you been doing any school work up ‘til this point? 

Well in the youth house they have you, uh, they have classes. But they aren’t anything towards you– I mean– They aren’t– they don’t go to anything towards your points or your credits to getting your– the high school diploma or GED or anything. I mean, the fact I even took a G– uh, Ryder college students were comin’ to the youth house and, you know, go over the GED book and everything with you and everything, but nothing, nothing goes towards your education there. In county they, they have no education. Um, and that two whole years I was pretty much no school, no schooling at all. Um– So I get down to Yardville. I enrolled in school. Um, start classes immediately. Uh, like I said it’s a, bein’ that it’s a correctional facility, uh, what’s his name– Joe Rizza, (inaudible) he was the, uh, it was Joe Rizzo and Jeff Burns were the administrator and assistant administrator. Joe Rizzo ran the program of the– the, uh, long termers and the young long termers, which was, uh, West House, Uh, which is a pretty good house. Uh, emphasized, uh, you know, over there they emphasize education. Um, so you, like I said, you become around like-minded people. Everybody over there is either paralegal or a teacher aid or student. So you develop a– a– a thirst for education while you’re over there ‘cause everybody’s goin’ to school and so you’re doin’, like I said, you got like-minded people. Um, so that’s ‘90? I get my high school diploma in, uh– Oh, yeah, high school diploma from Trenton. I get that in ‘94. Um, so that if I get my high school diploma, you know, begin to enroll in– now, now I have a thirst for wantin’ to know, for, you know– Uh, so I enrolled in, uh, Shops, I take. Cabinetry. I take, uh, upholstery. (pause) And I think I take, uh, I think it was A+. But they, uh, was it C+ or A+? Uh– Computer repair and all that stuff.

(00:11:16)

Okay.  

But in the– The class never went, you know, it never fully came up. So I ended up takin’, not, I did upholstery for about twelve years. Um.

What, what were those classes like? Or what was that (inaudible, overlapping) shop?

(overlapping) Shop, yeah, shop yeah. All them shop, shop settings. Like doin’ the molding, like, doing like desks, like that. That was the cabinetry. Uh, you know. Doin’ chairs. We did, um, Florio’s, um, summer house furniture. Um. So we did that. That was like, um, my first assignment, we did, we did his furniture. Governor Florio.

That was for the– the Governor’s residence–

Yeah– 

Down the shore? 

Yeah, his, yup, yup. You know, so he, uh. So that, you know, I mean. I think that, that’s with, uh– Pretty much made me want to stay, the fact that we would, doin’ the governor’s, uh, uh, uh, chairs. But then once you see how it comes out when you get done and it’s like, this is like, you know, this is like– like– like– like growin’ a plant, like, this is my creation, you know what I mean? ‘Cause you do your own chair. That’s like, all these chairs are the same, and you better hope they turn out the same when you get done, and when they do, like, this is my first time! Uh. You know, you, this is like, you develop a like for it. Uh, so I stayed in there for about four years and then Jack Amber, he left, he was the shop stewardess. Steward. Once he left, uh, they had people there off and on, and it just wasn’t the same ‘cause it was like, bein’ as you– you have– you need, you know, you need real tools. So like, substitutes, they come in and they’re kind of hesitant about, “Oh, I gotta go to see the officer if I can let you have the scissors.” Like, men, it’s– it’s shop opens up! I mean. It’s– it’s ready to, (laugh) know what I mean? Uh. So I got tired of that and went to the kitchen. I did the kitchen for about four years. I was a cook. Uh. Yeah for about four years. Then I went, uh, left there and went, uh, stayed in the kitchen, left bein’ a cook and went to, uh, the officer’s cook, officer’s dining room. Um, I did that because when Christie Whitman came she pretty much changed the whole food regiment and everything became like, just like pretty much dog food in bags. So the only way you were really gonna eat was if you worked in the o– officer’s dining room, was makin’, preparin’ the officer’s food because they got their– their– their order, their food came from the street. Uh, five star, whatever. So if you wanted to eat, like, real food, you know, pretty much be in the ODR. Officer’s dining room. 

What was, uh, how did you– what was your, kind of like, connection to– or were you keeping up with, like, current events that were happening? 

It was– it was a mixed bag because you try to but then you try not to. Um, at that time, my brother, uh, Jonell– the older brother, my father’s son, uh, he became a kingpin? So, like, just like, and– and talkin’ to him, you’re just like. You just like generically get information? It’s not that, not like, that you wanna know? The latest cars or what everybody’s wearin’, but you just, this is what I got, this is what I bought, this is, know what I mean? My man got this, and this, know what I mean? So you pretty much, well you, you don’t wanna know because it’s the– it’s the, that reality makes you miss it that much more. So when you know what everybody’s doin and everybody’s going to the park today. It’s 90 degrees. Everybody’s gonna be at the park. You know? That’s the last you wanna hear! (laughs) I mean, you wanna know but you don’t wanna– know what I mean? 

(00:15:06)

So. And it’s like that with everything. The dress, the latest styles. Um– You pretty much, you, you, uh. Trips and stuff, family trips. Like when my cousin, when he went through, uh, I think he went to, yeah, he went to Wisconsin first. Yeah, got a scholarship, football scholarship, went to Wisconsin. Know, stuff like that? Know what I mean? And I was on the phone with them most of the way. You know, you don’t enjoy stuff like that. You know, like family things. Uh, when they go, you know, take a trip to New Mexico and do the boat thing? Uh. You know, you wanna hear about that stuff, but as far as, like, street life? It’s like you– you just lose an interest for it. I mean, like I said, you wanna know, but you don’t wanna– it’s a mixed bag.

Did you– was there any tension or anxiety with other family members who were getting in trouble, or were you– 

No, ‘cause only real criminals in my family were me and my brother, the one who’s the kingpin and–

Did you talk to him frequently, or? 

Yes, ‘cause, you know, he always, you know. Put money on my books and everything and then my food packages and stuff like that, so we always talked. Uh, we always had, you know, access to him and everything. 

Did you have a point of view about what he was doing, or advice for him or? 

Not much, bein’ that he was older, and I guess because he was doin’ it for so long. Uh, other than times when I told him, like, you know, like I said, we got family, a lot of family from are police. Uh, they would tell me like, “Oh, you better tell Duran– you know what I mean. They were talkin’ about him today.” You know what I mean, stuff like that. So, you let him know. I mean, now he, now he gets it ‘cause he’s doin’ thirty years on a kingpin’s charges, like this is his third one? So. So now he gets it. But he’s gonna be 60 when he gets out, so. 

So how much total time did you wind– did you serve? 

Thirty years. Thirty years and uh– three months. Um. Got out May 24th of last year. Yup.

And, um, did the, I mean, you had articulated some, some work that you had done, some experiences you had. Is that, is that more or less what the– what was the total amount of time that you had served more or less the same experience the whole time or did–

Uh–

Did it make fluctuations?  

Not really? Um, like I said, uh, I did the, uh, kitchen thing. I did the upholstery. I did a little bit of mechanics. Uh, didn’t really like that, it’s just messy and smelly. I didn’t really enjoy it. I did the, uh– The, um, well the A+ thing never worked out. Um, I did, uh, surf-safe. I got my surf-safe certifications. Uh, I got my OCEAN certifications. Um, I took my paralegal courses. Uh, and then a whole bunch of other, like, anger-management, like, the other, um, like, those type of, um, anger issue, like anger-management behavior modification. I did a lot of those. (inaudible) Forms, stuff like that. 

(00:18:30)

What was kind of, as you were approaching the end of, end of that period. Was there–

My bid?

Yeah. 

(inaudible) Um. Well the whole process, the– the whole pa– parole process is something in itself? Know what I mean? You never know, like, how they’re gonna come. ‘Cause they have their own, I mean, their– their own institution, their– their own entity. So. And they’re independent of the state. They’re independent of the– the department– I believe they’re under Department of Corrections now, but when I was goin’ through it they weren’t. Uh, (police siren in background) they’re independent of, uh, the court system. So they– and they’re independent of the governor. So it’s pretty much if, if we don’t want you out, we’re (police siren continues) not gonna let you out, and there’s nothin’ nobody can say. I mean, they’re independent of the courts. And there’s been that people went to the judge, judge has made recommendations like, “There, you gotta come better or let this guy out,” (police sirens get louder) and parole was like, “Ah!” (tsk) You know. So. (sirens fade) Knowin’ that– that reality, and then you get this– this mixed reality, this mixed bag of information from guys who don’t really take their charges, and, uh, or they– they– they might have been, you know– The charge might say murder, but they might be there for cuttin’ a woman up and eatin’ her heart. But they’re never gonna tell you that. So when they got to parole and parole hits them, they’re not tellin’ you that, you know, “I was a savage and this is what I did to someone and I’m still not admittin’ to it.” So all you hear is “Parole is bad, parole is,” you know what I mean? You don’t think that they’re– they’re, uh, they have an interest in, uh– uh– uh, public health. Um, so, you know, you go, you go on parole and then actually, you go in there with an attitude. Uh, ‘cause there’s– there’s a two-man panel– there’s a one-man panel, then you see the psych, then you see the two-man panel, and then you see the twelve-man panel. But you have to get through each one to go to the next one. Um. So I remember sittin’ at the twp-man panel. Kinda sat there with an attitude, like, I’m already, like, ‘cause I’m ready for a confrontation, because from everybody who went before me, this is what they tell you. But at the same time, you, you know, it, it’s, this is your first time time so you’re not like, “Well, maybe it was his charge or maybe it was his posture and– and the way he come, came at parole.” And, and it’s not until I did what, you know, I went through the process that I realized that that’s– that’s the stuff, that’s how they would come.

(00:21:02)

Um, so like I said, that’s, you sit there. You know. Um. Uh. You go into the, uh, small room. It’s pretty small. (laughs) It’s a– it’s this closet. You go into a closet. Uh, there’s a, uh, maybe like a 45-inch TV screen, uh, camera there. And, you know, they’re somewhere, matter of fact they’re outside the building in a trailer. Uh– So you’re just sittin’ there. You see them in the room, nobody’s talkin’ or nothin’. So they turn the machine on and they just start– start, you know, comin’ at you. You know. They’re polite, they were polite at least for me. Uh, “Hello Mr. Sulaimani,” they run down the, you know, the charges, how long you been locked up. Uh, the whole pro– parole process. Um, “This is what it’s gonna be like.” And then they– they grill you. They ask you about the crime and you can either be truthful or you can continue to elude the reality that you put in place back then. Um, I found that it’s easier to just, like, let it all out too, you know what I mean? Once you accept it, and just, just, that they, that cat a bag’s out, I mean a bag’s a cat’s out? It’s easier to deal with. It’s just easier. Instead of just sittin’ there tryin’ to remember a lie. ‘Cause all the stuff is gonna come back when you see the, the next level, the, all these questions, and everything you’re sayin’ will be used against (laughs) you in the tri– in the next hearing. Uh, so you better, you know, become legit or you find yourself not even makin’ it past that level ‘cause they can give you in the head, uh, uh, additional time. Uh, so I got a– I got a unanimous decision from that channel. Uh, went on to the next man– to the twelve-man panel. Uh, they come get you early in the morning. Um, you know that it’s comin’ ‘cause they don’t tell you. So you know that it’s gonna be within the next, whatever, forty days maybe. So they call you. You know what I mean? You already know what it is, so you’re like, you’re– I mean, it– it could be five below outside and you gonna sweat ‘cause of that nervousness and that, and that agitation. Um, it’s funny because I was, uh, what happened? Um.

(00:23:20)

The morning I went, can’t remember, when was it? It was– it was cold outside. And, uh, the officer, you know they, they, I guess they’d been sittin’ out there for a while? So they put me in a van. The van is hot. And then it’s like, it’s like, I’m– I’m, like, on the way from, ‘cause I– I go from Rahway, um, which is in Woodridge. And the parole hearing is at Trenton State Prison. So the whole time, you know, I’m– I’m sweatin’ bullets. So. Once we get to the– to the Trenton, officer sees me sweatin’ and everything and like, “What’s wrong?” Know what I mean? I’m like, “It’s hot back here.” So he’s like, “Oh. My bad!” Know what I mean? “I– I, uh, we had the heat on ‘cause we were sittin’ outside waitin’ for you, but we had to wait for, you know, the account and everything to clear so we had the heat on ‘cause we were sittin’ here– I didn’t know.” He said “Why didn’t you bang on it?” I was like, “I thought it was part of process!” I thought, know what I mean, know what I mean? Agitate the guy, torture him a little bit. I said, “If I think you’re tryin’ to get to me, I’m not gonna let you get to me.” Know what I mean? So he said, “It wasn’t even like that, man.” So you know, (inaudible) The whole time he’s got the back of the door open and try and let me cool off and stuff. So they’re– they’re– they’re runnin’ the riot act to me, you know, “Man,” uh, “I’m thirteen and O [zero], uh, thirteen and one,” officer Rivera says to me. “I’m thirteen and one. Uh. Thirteen, every time I take a guy, thirteen are lifers, thirteen of them got out, only got one.” He said, “Just go in there–” You know. He started runnin’ down everything, ‘cause he sits in the hearin’ with you– well, him and his partner. So he’s just like, “Yo man, just be honest with him man,” he said, “If you did it, just say you did it. If you didn’t,” you know what I mean? “That’s between you and whatever.” 

(00:25:02)

Uh, you know, so I go in there. That’s, uh– You literally, I mean, there’s– there’s no explainin’ the feeling of, uh. (pause) Like, uh, ‘cause you’re– you’re there, at this point, you’re literally fighting for your life in the room. The room– so you walk in there, it’s pretty much like a horseshoe. So they’re all sitting all around and you’re right here with the microphone in front of you. Uh, you know, the whole time they’re polite, you know, but you’re waiting for them to be arrogant and be the assholes that everybody said they were. You know what I mean? But, uh, and then, and then the fact that they’re bein’ so nice is– is another throw-off because alright, ‘cause now I’m bein’ set up, know what I mean? So it’s like, you just like on point in a way that it’s unnecessary. So, uh, you know, they run, like, they do the same thing that the– the– the two-man panel did. They asked me, ‘cause you know about the charges, and then they throw some stuff out there to see if you gonna change your story like. Uh, “But didn’t you say earlier–” “Yeah I said earlier, I was tryin’ to get away with it, that’s why!” (laughs) You know what I mean? It wasn’t like I’m lying now, I was lyin’ then! ‘Cause I didn’t wanna get caught! “Okay,” know what I mean? So it’s stuff like that.  Um, mostly they asked me about my education history. I told them, know what I mean, I’m a college student and everything, I have my, uh, um– um, my associates and everything through NJ STAT. Uh, Mercer County, you know, community college. Um, and you know, they have all this stuff already, they just wanna hear about it. Uh. (pause) So they asked me, you know, they ask you about your remorse and your rehabilitation and stuff like that– well, they don’t ask you. They pretty much expect you, if– if– if you have it that– that you gonna explain it to them. So that’s what I do, you know, I explain how remorseful I am, because I knew the victim personally and for the fact that it’s a human life lost. Uh, then, like, give them, you know, a rundown, you know, of– of my life lessons that I learned from all of this. Uh, rather than, you know, don’t have no intentions of ever doin’ anything like this again, um. (pause) So they– they, uh, after that, you know, it was actually about twenty minutes? Um– “It’s okay, well, you know, step out, we’re gonna deliberate.” As soon as I step out, the officers step out, the officer turns around and says, he’s like, “You’re goin’ home man, you’re goin’ home.” He said, “I– I never heard people talk–” he said, uh, I forgot the guy, I think he used to be a district attorney or somethin’, they called him “The Shark.” He’s, he said they call him, he said, he said, “Man this guy is so mean to everybody.” He said, “I think if his mother went in there he would grill her.” He said, “But when you made him laugh–” he said, “I– this guy goin’ home.” So, uh, I forget what he said– (pause) Oh! He said, yeah, he said, he said, he said, “Everything that you’re– you’re, you’re sayin’ to us,” know what I mean. “I mean– You got me confused! You got me nervous!” He said, “I don’t know if this guy is– is– is a con-man or what!” He said, “So what do you think about that?” I said, “Well, when you put it like that, now you got me nervous!” So then he started laughin’, know what I mean? So. 

(00:27:58)

So– so the officer tells me, so, uh, he said, he’s like, “Look.” He said, “I– I know you’re goin’ home because your hearin’ was only twenty minutes.” He said, “I never seen anybody go through a twenty-minute hearing.” He said, “Everybody’s at least two or three hours.” Uh. So then I’m sittin’ in a holdin’ cell waiting. And then they call me back, like, ten minutes later. He said, “Bro,” he said, “Bro, you’re goin’ home.” He said, “They don’t deliberate in ten, fifteen minutes!” (laughs) So then I go back in there, sit down. And they tell me, I see the paper. Uh. You know, they put the paper on you. I have it. They put a paper in front of you (rustling), pretty much your parole expectations? (zipper opens) Uh, it’s not even (inaudible), you’re tryin’ to see it but at the same time you– you don’t wanna look away from them? Um, so they put that in front of you and then they run down, like, you know, “You have unanimous decision, we’re gonna let you go.” Uh. They tell you whether they’re gonna send you to a halfway house or, uh, since you have unanimous decision we’re gonna let you go straight home to your family. So, you do that. (rustling) But, I don’t believe I have it on me? (rustling continues) Yeah I don’t believe I have it. Uh. (pause) Wow. Um. But, you know, this paper runs down, it runs down everything that they expect of you–

Is it in– individualized to the person or is it more like– (inaudible, overlapping) (overlapping) It’s individualized. Yes. 

Yeah. (papers rustling) 

(inaudible) (pause) (papers rustling) (pause) I believe that’s the one– I believe that’s the one they sent. It’s a different color at the time they give it to you, but they, ev– everybody knows the green sheet. So it’s all, or the yellow– I forgot what color it is, green or yellow. Uh– (papers rustling) I think I had to give that paper back to them. But they give that to you, and they’re sittin’ in front of you. You’re tryin’ to– you’re tryin’ to look at it but you’re tryin’ to, you know, still be attendant to them. And so, (papers continue rustling) but it’s, pretty much tells you what’s gonna happen to you at that point. You know–

So this has a whole listing, too, of all the courses you took– 

Yes.

Oh, wow– 

You can have that if you need it. (papers rustling)

Are you sure? 

Yeah, I have another one. ‘Cause I had to just take that to, uh, I took that to, uh, Robert’s (inaudible), ‘cause I had to show’em for, uh, my selective service, why I didn’t file, so I had to, you know–

Uh huh.  

Make a copy of it, show them where I been for the past thirty years. 

(00:30:38)

So you started the– the parole process in January 2018? 

Yes. (pen scratching) That’s–

And then–

Well, it actually started before that. It usually starts like six months before–

Six months– 

Um. But that’s when sh– Uh, the first lady interviewed me? That’s. Everything before that is pretty much, uh, they call you and tell you what they expect from you, like letters from your family, loved ones, this and that. Yeah. The addresses you’re gonna go to and whether or not they have a dog or a gun. If they’re a gun owner. Stuff like that.

What is the– so, what is the marking here, “Complicity?” 

That’s the felony murder. 

Okay. 

They’re sayin’ that I– they’re sayin’ that– it’s a note to them for them, for themselves to– to not treat me like I did it?

Yeah. 

Because the– the court, the jury said that I didn’t do it? So they’re not gonna expect me to say that, “Yes I– I killed Mr. Novak.” So it’s a note to them to say, “Well, he is compliant. So his level of admittance has to be consistent with being compliant.” 

Gotcha. 

And, I was like, “Yes I was there. I did commit it. I will fully– went on my own and we did this, we planned it. And we did it.” Know what I mean? 

So then, (rustling) um, how long was it from that big panel hearing to the day that you were released? 

Um, forty, I believe it’s forty-two days? Yeah, forty-two days they make you wait. 

(rustling continues) Is that, is that more just an administrative thing, or? 

I think that’s an administrative, yeah. I think that’s something that they, that they do between. I think it’s 42 and 140 days? Uh, they gave me, I guess the lowest. I guess, I– I guess that, within that time, that’s their time frame for goin’ to check out the address that they gave and– and, you know, stuff like that. 

And then, um, the address that you were intending to live with your aunt? 

Yes.

Is that what happened? 

Yes. 

Yeah. 

My mom, Kathy (overlapping, inaudible)–

(00:32:39)

(overlapping) What was the decision behind that? 

It’s just better. 

Yeah. 

Um, for one, it’s in Cherry Hill, it’s in a suburb in Cherry Hill, so it’s– It’s  away from everything and everyone. So– so it allows me to– to readjust to society as slowly and as easily as possible. Um, she’s a homeowner so I won’t have to, you know, be bogged down with havin’ to, you know, runnin’ into payin’ rent automatically or immediately and– and fallin’ into the debt, know what I mean? I can gradually, as I– as I, you know, grow in society again, I can– I can do it with ease.

Was that an easy decision for her to make? 

Yeah.

Yeah. 

She’s– she’s, uh, like– Well, all my aunts have been like my– my greatest supporters forever or for all my life. Uh. Her and my aunt Jackie, ‘cause my aunt Jackie lives in a senior citizen home at the bottom of Rimson?

Mhm hmm. 

Um. She lives there, and– and the one I live with, they’re like my two greatest supporters, sponsors, everything. 

And those are your mom’s sisters? 

Yeah. 

Okay. So then what was, so then you went the forty-two days, you kinda figure out the logistics, and then what happens. 

Uh– And then morning comes! Well, before that, you know, they call you down and, uh, get your, get your measurements, (clears throat) ‘cause you have to leave in state attire? Not the– not the traditional khaki brown. They put you in, uh, jeans and a white shirt. Uh. That’s just something, the rule that they have. Uh, know what I mean, there’s, everybody believes that they’re, you know– ‘Cause everything’s tied into the debt corp? Of Christie Whitman’s family and all of that. So there’s the, pretty much a waste of money, but it’s the money that’s– that’s generated towards their wealth? So they– they make it mandatory and there’s a lot of that. Um, so you leave with debt. So they call you down for the measurements. They take a exit photo of you. Uh. Matter of fact, they use that for your ID. I might have a picture of that in here– They use this, the, they take an additional, a new, you know, up-to-date picture of you. Or if you have any tattoos or anything, they take that. Um– (pause) And then you go, you know, sit around and wait until the next, the next forty-something days are just like, just waiting for that. Always waiting for that day, you know. You’re like, I know for me, you’re still in disbelief. I was in the East Jersey City prison on, on 2 Up. So 2 Up allows you to see– I don’t know if you’re ever been over there?

Not that–

Well it allows you to see the whole Woodbridge Avenue, so I can see from maybe like– 300, maybe like two or 300 yards from the, over the wall. So you can see all the way to the Quik Check and the motor vehicle? So it’s like every day you’re like lookin’ at it. I mean at the– the lights are brighter. Everything is different now that you know you’re goin’ home. But at the same time, you don’t know that it’s, know what I mean– it’s just, the reality is that, hasn’t hit you yet. At this. The– they take that exit photo to make that fake ID for you. 

(00:35:55)

Mhm. 

Which is useless. Yeah, ‘cause they, nobody, nobody accepted it. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Um– Uh. So like I said, everything’s brighter and so this is like the countdown. You start givin’ stuff away, but you don’t wanna give everything ‘cause you’re like, “What if I don’t go home? I’m gonna need this stuff?” So, you know, every day is, like, consistent with this, so it's pretty much create a pattern like, “Okay, every day I’m going to give something away.”

Right. 

So I, you know, I did that, did that. My TV was the last thing I gave away. Um. What– On the forty-second day, they come get you. Well, they don’t come get you, you had, you just, you know. And then, um, the forty-second day, you hear the phone– every phone ring you hear from 5:30 in the morning until you leave is like, is like in your head for you. So, know what I mean? You’re anticipatin’ that, every, every– Since you’re wakin’ up.

(laughs) 

So, um, until finally around six, I think around six o’clock, they say, “Sulaimani, they wanna know who’s comin’ to get you, uh, and the vehicle and their relationship to you.” Uh, so I knew my– my cousin was gonna come get me. Um, because, you know, we were gonna, the plan was to, ‘cause you know, after you, after you get out you have to go straight to the parole office. Uh, you know, you have a time to be there, a time frame. Uh, so I was gonna go there, and then we were gonna meet at the– the house we were gonna stay at, and then we were gonna have the big family gatherin’. But, uh, they couldn’t wait, so they all came. Uh, so I had to tell them, but I tell them my cousin, because that’s the only one I– I believe is gonna come get me. Um. So then, 7:30 comes and they– Well they– they told me, um– (pause) I’ll come downstairs and get the outfit, uh, everything I got measured for. Uh. “They want you to come down and get your outfit.” So then that comes, and then I see my cousin, uh, you know, come through, ‘cause you can see where they come in the parkin’ lot? It’s about a quarter of a mile to, from the entrance into the parkin’ lot. So I see his big Armada come through. So I said alright it’s a little, it’s a little more real. So then, um, my cousin, he’s, uh, an Edison police officer. Um, hey buddy sorry, uh, Middlesex County youth detention center with another officer, Lt. Reyes. He’s the shift commander and at Broadway. So, uh, he gives me a call. And usually they don’t let you out ‘til nine o’clock, but bein’ that he knows my cousin, they call me around 8:00. So he lets me right out! Uh, you know, congratulatin’ me, he’s got a big smile, you know what I mean? He’d always been cool to me ‘cause I knew, matter of fact, I first met him at Yardville, and then, you know, that’s when he found out, “How’s your cousin,” and everything, know what I mean. Uh, so. So then, but now he’s the shift commander in East Jersey State Prison. So he’s like, you know, man, I’m lettin’ you out now, I’m lettin’ you out now.

(00:38:56)

So they let me out. Signed a whole bunch of papers first, uh, sayin’ that, you know, they hold– I think they hold twenty-five dollars from your account? And then they give you, like, another twenty-five? ‘Cause they don’t want nobody like, bein’, like, goin’ out broke. 

Uh huh.

So they make you sign for all this stuff’n– Then, so you’re doin’ that, but when you do it there’s a big, uh, glass– Divider. And, uh, so, but you see your whole family right there. It’s like, and they’re waitin’ and they’re like, like, like, anxious dogs, too (laughs) Know what I mean? But they’re, so you could, you could barely sign the papers. I mean. (inaudible) You can barely sign anything ‘cause you– you– you’re so nervous. Um. (papers rustling) As matter of fact this is the– the paper they had waitin’ for me.  

Oh wow. 

That’s, yeah, that’s it. (papers rustling) That’s the one that was sitting on the desk at parole and, uh, I make a copy– I’ll send it to you.

Yeah! The notation up here, “Full Board”, does that mean the full board–(overlapping) Approved? 

Yeah, the full board approved, yup, all of them. (pause) Yeah, so they’re waitin’, they let you out. And everybody just starts cryin’, and my little nephews, they start goin’ crazy and cryin’ and stuff like that. And everybody’s hugging me and kissing me, but you have to re– go through the booth one last time to read your– your, know what I mean, your ID number and everything to them. So. But I can’t do that ‘cause everybody’s kissin’ me and huggin’ me so I’m– I’m like, “Just let me say this so we can get the heck out of here!” So, uh, so we finally wrote down my number: 108739, Ibrahim Sulaimani, uh, 2 Up. Uh, thirty years, all of that. So we get to the parking lot and, you know, we just standin’ there, well I– I go to the car– I change immediately to the stuff my family brought, I wanted, you know, all black. Uh, so I change and then I had already told everybody in the jail, I said, “Look.” I said, “When I get out, I’m walkin’ to the Quik-Check. All the times we done sat here in this window, I walked everybody walk into the Quik-Check, you know, from the flea markets to the Quik-Check.” I said, “I’m makin’ that walk.”

(00:41:10)

And so I told my, my cousin, you know, “I wanna make this walk!” So he said “We’ll all walk with you.” So my whole family, they walked with me, like– like– like twenty people walkin’ up Woodbridge Avenue to the turn– uh, to the Quik-Check. And then we walked back, you look up, you see everybody in the window, like, lookin’ like, you know, “He said he was gonna do that!” Know what I mean? So then we finally get, I mean, it’s all just, like, everything is just, like, surreal. And it’s, I mean, it’s not kickin’ it, and we pull over real quick ‘cause we had to use the bathroom– my whole family, they shot to my aunt’s house in Cherry Hill, uh, while we go our own way to go to the parole officer and check in as soon as we, know what I mean, possible. Um, but we stopped at the, uh, Chick-Fil-A. At the, I dunno if you know what a panhandle is? It’s, uh, it’s like half-way between South Jersey and North Jersey. Uh. So we stop over there at the Panhandle and we’re at a Chick-Fil-A. So it’s like, “Yo, you want somethin’ to eat?” Know what I mean, “Somethin’, get something!” Know what I mean? So I’m just like, I’m still like, just like, messed up! Um– (pause) Uh, well then, you know, everybody put a whole bunch of money in my hand while I was waiting, you know, while, you know, when you’re comin’ in, so they all was givin’ me money and everything, so. I guess, I ordered, uh, the little twisty rings and a strawberry milkshake, and I went to pay and they’re like, “No! You ain’t payin!” Know what I mean? Like, “I have money!” Know what I mean, like, “I wanna buy something!” No, I tried to buy something at the Quik-Check, I– I tried to buy some gum. Because they don’t let you have gum because they used to jam the locks with’em. So I wanted something, to– Uh, acknowledge my bein’ out that I couldn’t have. So I tried to buy gum, but he wouldn’t let me buy it at the Quik-Check. So I tried to pay for my onion rings and the milkshake and they– they wouldn’t, they’re like, “No! You don’t gotta pay for anything, we got it, we got it!” So uh– So, we, you know, got all that and we’re just drivin’, and everybody’s callin’, like, everybody else has phones now so everybody’s callin’. My– my little brother, the one who messed my ID up, he’s in the back seat of my cousin, and they’re callin’, “Let me talk to him, let me talk!” So I have two phones in my ears and, and, “How does it feel to be out?” And people are Facetimin’ and Live and, and. It’s like, know what I mean? And I don’t know how to do any of this shit! (laughs) Know what I mean? So I’m just like, “I don’t know how to push it!” Like, “Back it up some more!” 

(laughing) 

But, like I said, it was certainly– I mean even– even now it’s like, everything is still surreal! I mean like, even just drivin’ here it’s like– Uh, uh– There’s, uh– eleven months ago I was sittin’ in a cell, know what I mean, on my donk! And now I’m here doin’ 80 down 295! (chuckle) Know what I mean? It’s just like, and it’s– it’s– it hasn’t gotten old yet.

(00:44:04)

Know what I mean? Even like, like, uh– We had to go, or we had to get a key made. So as long as we get, we do all that, go to parole, then we go back to the house. And I pretty much have whiplash from, like, lookin’ at everything, like– And then, you know, every– and you’re nervous at the same time ‘cause cars are comin’ at you at the speed  that you’re not used to. Uh. You have no, you know, depth perception of like anything, know what I mean? Somebody come up the auxiliary you gotta feel like, (chuckle) know what I mean? Like– Yield! (chuckle) Know what I mean? But you don’t know nothin’ about yield, you just don’t think that they see you. Like I said, I never had a legitimate license so, so I never, uh, at the time. So, you know, knowin’ the rules of the road, know what I mean, weren’t on me. Uh. Like I said, so we went to the house and then uh– (pause) I got a whole bunch of food there, givin’ me all the, and my mother and them all make seafood, so we got crab legs and stuff. Uh, my cousin said, “Let’s go for a ride, let’s go get the house key, get your house key made, let you pick it out.” Uh, so we go get the house key made and, I remember the, uh, drivin’ up to the Wal-Mart, ‘cause we have a Super Wal-Mart maybe like a mile from my house. And, uh– Building intentionally, you know, buildin’ up ‘cause you always heard about Wal-Mart, Target, I mean, we even did a class on the– on the, um, how Target made Wal-Mart better because, you know, Target was a better, uh, uh, customer and, and, uh, worker friendly than Wal-Mart used to be when it first came out. So, you know, so you build, you got all this build up towards Wal-Mart that’s magnificent. Uh, so you, you know, we go up and then we get in there and I’m just like– I don’t wanna leave! (laughs) You know? So we go get the key made. I got a, a– Well, my key just broke so, but I had, I got one with a light on it. (laughs) So. Um–.They did that. (papers rustling) Uh– So then we walk around, yeah, we walk around for a good while. Uh. Walk right into the– like I said I, I’m, I’m enamored by, you know, people just goin’ about life. You know, they just, everybody’s in there shoppin’ and it’s full parkin’ lot and it’s like, it still doesn’t, it’s still hittin’ you like, “You’re out! You’re out!” So that, that whole thing was– I mean, even now, I take the same, you know, there’s five entrances to a Wal-Mart ‘cause we have a Cinemark and a whole little, little theater thing goin’ on. Uh, so there’s, like, five or six different entrances, but I always take the one that we first took when I went up– it just, like, I relive that moment every time I go up that ramp. It’s just like, it’s just like somethin’ every time. (pause) 

(00:46:53) 

So what’s– What’s been the time since that day? What’s been the– 

Well, working. I mean, I, um, I started a, one of my teachers from the youth house, uh. He has his own business. Um, a moving company. Uh, moving and cleanouts. And, uh. Well he employed me right from the door, he’s like, “Yo, know what I mean, you wanna make money or need a job or anything? Uh, come to me.” So I went to him right away. Um, but then I left and started workin’ for UPS ‘cause it was down the street and around the corner from my house. So I worked for them for, maybe like about nine months? I just left them. And now I work for, uh, the clean-out guy, I got my own crew in Rahway, I work for him, and I just, well I just went and did three interviews with a place called Michael’s. They have their own construction and everything but they’re– they’re buildin’ somethin’ on the waterfront in Camden, uh. So they just had a hiring event, so I did, you know, cook or construction and, uh, maintenance. Interviewed for all three of those positions. You know, so uh. But it’s been that and, uh, school a lot. I’m not enrolled this semester, but I plan on goin’ back in the fall. I just, you know, I didn’t wanna, uh, I did but– I don’t know if you know Boris? Boris Franklin? Uh. He’s a Rutgers student, NJ Steps Student. You know. He told me what not to do, don’t become, don’t overwhelm yourself with school and work and everything, like, take stuff at a time. And I didn’t listen to him at first, so I took school and everything. It all become too much, know what I mean? I mean, I don’t even– I mean, it was even harder for my first two weeks, I didn’t even sleep. Like, my cousins and brothers and everybody’s callin’ me like, “Yo, you gotta go to sleep. You gonna die, man,” know what I mean? And I–

You were working full time and–

No I just, I didn’t wanna go to sleep!

Yeah. 

I didn’t want to miss anything! I was–

Yeah. 

I was sittin’ on the edge of the bed, know what I mean, like I said I have a real nice neighborhood. Uh. So I’m just sittin’ on the bed, and– and when the birds are chirpin’ with the windows open and everything, just watchin’ the birds chirp. And people, you know, doin’ their little mornin’ walk and run and stuff and I’m just like, (laugh) know what I mean? Now I’m ready to go! And every day, you know, my cousin would drive from– ’cause he lives in Piscataway, the one that’s a cop. Uh, he’s– he’s like my closest cousin, I mean, we’re closer than my brothers. But he comes, uh, he comes down there every day to get me to, you know, run around and, and take me, I mean, if you ever saw my Facebook posts, you’d lie– I’d, I’d be eatin’ everywhere that didn’t exi– everywhere that didn’t exist when I was home, I’d be eatin’ there. Everywhere. If it’s– if it’s– if it’s still open, know what I mean? All like, Buffalo Wild Wings and Applebees and– And uh– The– The Lux and Cheesecake Factory. I mean, I’ve been everywhere. That’s all I do is eat (laughs) . We just came from– what’s the name, last night– Longhorns. Uh. 

(00:49:56)

What are some of the biggest challenges you’ve had the last couple months? 

(pause) Uh. I think my biggest challenge is– Gettin’ people to, uh– (pause)  I guess realize? You know, that, that, uh– You know, ‘cause people can’t comprehend what I’ve been through? And what it’s like to be out? So gettin’ them to be like, I can’t, can’t really describe it– like not patient with me or anything but gettin’ them to, like, understand my position. Um. Um– (pause) (inaudible) Like people, no, people want you to, uh, like, do certain things? But they don’t understand that you just, like. Like, for instance, a relationship. Uh, the girl that I’m with now, I’ve known her for, like, thirty-five years, she was my girlfriend– one of my girlfriends before I went in. And she’s always been around my whole entire bit. But, uh, she wants to, you know, get married. And she’s pushin’ it on me, but I’m tellin’ you, like, get her to realize that I don’t even know if I want to be married yet! I might want to marry a 25 year old girl and have children! She’s 50 so, know what I mean. So I say, you know, but you can’t push me into a situation, ‘cause you’re gonna be the one to hurt, ‘cause I’m gonna do– this is my time to do what I want to do, you know, as long as it’s legit. Uh– I’m not lookin’, you know– and that’s what it is, they want you to live their reality, but they think that they’re helpin’ you, and they think that they’re lookin’ out, they go the best, uh, your best interest in hand? But not realizin’ that your best interest that they could have for you is to let you have your, your own interest. So it’s like, know what I mean, if I felt like takin’ a train here, it’s because I wanna– The– the, to be amongst the people, know what I mean, I just, ‘cause for the first month I took the train, uh. I was goin’– as a matter of fact, when I was workin’ with the guy, uh, in Trenton. Uh, the guy, the teacher. Um. Take, take the PACKO from Cherry Hill to Camden and to take the River Line from Camden to Trenton. And you just, like, you’re just sittin’ back, bein’ amongst people goin’ to work and seein’ how they function and– and their conversations and everything, and you, you know, I built a like for it. So if– if I decided I wanna take a train here today, it doesn’t make sense to you because it’s gonna rain. But it makes sense to me that I wanna be in the rain! I wanna, know what I mean, I wanna get wet! I wanna be with people when they’re runnin’ on the train and wet and like, “Oh! It’s crazy out there!” Know what I mean, and– but people just don’t get that. And I don’t expect them to, because, uh, they didn’t do, you know, they haven’t been through what I’ve been through. Know what I mean? I mean, I haven’t been through, like, prison isn’t like it used to be like, the rapes and the murders. I mean it happened. But it’s not like, it’s not hell like it used to be. Uh. The hardest thing is bein’ away from your family and– and not bein’ able to do what you wanna do. But now that I have that, I wanna have that option, but I want it to be mine. I don’t want it to be what you think, know what I mean? And that’s the, that’s the hardest thing, to get people to understand that it– it’s just, just let me do me. Know what I mean?

(00:53:25)

Like the other day, “Oh it’s gonna rain today, why would you wanna, why, why?” Just like– I said, “Know what? I’m– I’m, as a matter of fact, know what? I’m gonna drive and I’m stayin’ in New Brunswick all day.” I said, “I– I’m not comin’ back tonight.” I said, “I– I’m gonna see the movie that we were supposed to see together.” I said, “I’m gonna see it myself. I’m goin’ to AMC.” And. (laughs) You know, she, so that’s your punishment. Uh, you know. I’m gonna see a Hotel Mumbai. So I’m gonna see that. Well, I have to go see my sister-in-law, she’s in the hospital havin’ a baby. Well ‘bout, ‘bout to be premature. So, uh. (church bell tolls) So I’ma go see her after this, she’s in Robert Wood. But, you know what I mean? It’s like–

I may actually see you there. My co-producer just had his baby–

Oh yeah?

Yesterday. 

Oh, okay! 

So we’re goin’ over there to see him, 

(laughs)

to Robert Wood Johnson. 

Yeah, I’ll be there about 3 o’clock. So.

So. You had mentioned earlier that one of the things, you know, uh, other guys have gone through the experience kind of choose not to talk about it, not to talk about what happened or what they think about it. You’re, you’ve obviously chosen to be very open and upfront about it. Why? 

Well I think because I’ve accepted it. I’ve, I mean, I was able to– (pause) Accept that, you know, what I did was wrong. I know that it was bad. And– Now, you should know that I know what I mean, not only that, that I know that it was bad, but for your own decisions. I always been, know what I mean, I mean I always been, like– Outspoken and activist and– and– and– and tellin’ you like it is. Know what I mean? And that’s like, but that’s probably been the hard part too, is tryin’ to hold that back. ‘Cause a lot of people can’t take that now, like, the society today is different? And people break down easier. Uh. (pause) But that’s, that’s just, you know, how I am. Know what I mean? And, and– (pause) This is how I come. 

How did you get, uh, linked up with New Jersey Institute of Social Justice and their work, and–

Oh! Well, I don’t know if you know Reverend Ronald Pierce? Uh. We were– we were on the same unit together, we were, you know, stepbrothers and everything like that. Um, so we have always been active, like, like I said, he’s the same way, he’s always been an outspoken guy– he’s gonna tell you like it is. Ron, he does the hold back. I mean, we’re learnin’ to hold back ‘cause, like I said, society just isn’t ready for–

What are you holding back? 

Just like, tellin’ you like, like, uh– (pause) Just like, know what I mean, just like, like you’re bein’, like, “You’re a fool.” Know what I mean, there’s certain ways that– Know, ‘cause people take on this, you know, they see this prisoner and they think automatically, know what I mean, “You’re a, you’re a rotten type of guy.” So– You try, you know, to keep that persona from, you know, reflecting their– their pre-judgement of you. Know what I mean? So you can’t, like, uh. You know, like. You know, you say you get on a train. They think you’re doin’ this because, like, you’re this ex-con and you got this, this jail manner? Know what I mean? So you have to like, “Excuse me, excuse–” Know what I mean? Like that.

Yeah.  

Know what I mean? It’s a, to not, you know, to not fall into people’s pre-judgement of you. Because, like, like I said, we’re probably the nicest guys, like, some of the people that been locked up. Uh, Stackhouse. Uh, Boris Franklin. Uh, Tone Henshaw. A lot of the people that, that are out now that are STAT members, I mean. We– we– we’ve all got degrees because we were able to maneuver through prison life. Because, you know, wind uh, it’s a, uh, it’s an incentive education. So if you’re gettin’ in fights and stuff like that, you can’t be in STAT. So we learn how to maneuver through life by just holdin’ back, like. People don’t, you don’t, uh, I don’t have to tell you that, that you’re an a-hole all the time, know what I mean? Or I don’t even uh– Like, for instance, I just told my girlfriend the other day, we were at Wawa, I said, “You don’t have to say ev–” I said, “I said only” uh–

I’m so sorry–

(00:57:31)

[END OF RECORDING TWO]

[BEGINNING OF RECORDING THREE]

(00:00:00)

Yeah, like I was tellin’ my girlfriend the other day, uh, she said– she said something to uh– Uh– One of the waitresses. Like, “She’s not servin’ us too well, you know, I mean she’s– she’s gonna say hi to everyone else and see how they’re doing.” I said, “What do you need?” She said, “I want more napkins.”  So the girl walks by, she says, “Excuse me, you didn’t get what–” You know what I mean? Something like, “You don’t have to say everything that’s on your mind.” I said, “Only people that get away with that is children. Children can say what’s on there, you know, whatever’s on their mind. Adults have to, like, refrain sometimes.” I said, “Uh,” so, so we go into this whole thing, but I– I tell her, I said, “There’s a lot of things I got on my mind that I– I wanna tell you that, you know, that hurts your feelin’s if I said it.” You know what I mean? But I hold back, I said, “That’s the only people who gets to say what they want is children. ‘Cause they’re not accountable.” You know, I said– bein’ accountable, you know, I mean, you just try to hold back. I mean, I mean, I, even here, I– I see people like, arguin’ in traffic’n stuff and people get out their car and then like, “Ah! Middle finger!” They ain’t doin’ anything serious but I mean like, if you were, if you were where I’ve been, I mean, I’m in traffic next to you. I’m not goin’ no where either. So you’all’re about to fight or cuss each other out, mess each other’s day up over something that I– I’m just like, I’m happy I’m in traffic. I mean. I was scrollin’ through my phone now and everything, (laughs) you know what I mean? It’s just like. Just gotta know when to hold back. You just can’t let it out the whole time. 

What’s your– what are you– do you have kind of like hopes for– You’re sharing your story, you’re kind of working on some of this campaign work, what are you hoping–

Uh–

comes out of it?  

Just results. Positive results. Uh– Well, first of all, people bein’ able to vote. Uh– As far as my story, just people have been, uh, to know, uh, um– Become enlightened by, uh, a view. Uh. Like I said, I never considered, uh, being empathetic– empathetic or sympathetic towards the victim. Or towards my family or towards the victim’s family until those things were brought forth to me. And until I became enlightened to how those people might feel (clears throat) through the people, like I said, that I’ve seen who have lost people in prison. I’ve been fortunate enough to only lose, I lost my grandmother to age. I lost my grandfather to cancer and my aunt to breast cancer. But I don’t have any, uh, I’ve been fortunate enough to not have anybody murdered brutally where I had to like, blame it, or, or, you know what I mean? 

Uh huh. 

So I’ve been fortunate, but, but seeing people with loved ones who were brutally murdered and, and, and seeing what they go through? And it’s like, you have to be– Uh, pretty much inhumane to not feel something. Or for hurting somebody. You know what I mean? I mean, even, even the other day, I mean, I– I– I– I had to, I literally, (inaudible) to the, uh– Had to be about three miles out of my way to come back to see if I hit the red cone the other day, ran in front my car. I just felt that type of way about it. But, uh, when I didn’t see’m on the ground, I mean, I was, I was, I was happy? You know what I mean? And that’s just, that’s just how I feel now. I mean, that’s not to say that I won’t hurt somebody in defense of someone else. Uh. But as far as like, deliberate or unintentional or, you know what I mean, I just. I just, I’m more humane now than I, than I was. And I’ve developed that now and held onto that humanity and that community of– of self and of people and of society more than, you know, more, probably more, I– I appreciate it more. And that’s what I want pe– other people to– to– to see my story and appreciate it to the point where– If my wife leaves me, I’m not gonna, my first thing isn’t gonna be to, uh, go kill her and kill myself and then have my kids suffer. Or the guy next door, uh, uh, is making too much noise, my first thing isn’t gonna be to go bash his head in with a bat, know what I mean? Just like, like, life, life, know what I mean, to get over it? Become his friend and then, and then might work out better! Know, I’ll be like, call’em, invite’m over for a barbeque, couple beers, be like “Yo man!” You know what I mean? “You all, ya’ll be buggin’ over there.” “Oh yeah, we’re tryin’ta hold it down. Yeah. Even though she, she, she’s, she just drives me crazy.” “Oh yeah! My mom always drives me crazy too, but, you know what I mean? I mean.” Know what I mean? That– that’s– that goes a longer way and I found that out through prison too, that it’s like, you can be the, you know, ‘cause there’s a lot of Aryan nations and, and uh, Klan officers that I know and not all of them were a-holes, just by a simple, uh, uh, “What are you doin’?” “I’m goin’ over here.” Or, or uh, uh, or just answerin’ a “Sir”. Uh, “Yes sir!” You know what I mean? And like, next time the guy sees you, he’s nice to you. Like. And he remembers your name, know what I mean? Like, “Hey Mr. Sulaimani! How you, how you doin’ today?” And I– I– I know the guy! You know what I mean, I know he’s a, he’s a Klan member. I mean, he had it on his lips! (laughs) You know what I mean? But! Officer Green. And there’s other ones like that and, you know, they just, it’s just your mannerism towards people can change people. And, and that’s, you know, and that’s, you know, and the– and the– and the comes down– like you’re the nucleus of that. And I just hope to be the nucleus of maybe, know what I mean, like, people say, “Oh, oh we’re gonna try to change the world,” and then others, I mean, or, “I just wanna change one person.” I don’t, I mean, I don’t care if you don’t change, I just want you to have options, to know that– This is– this is bookin’ happenin’, know what I mean? You can sit in a cell and then be– be bored to death for thirty years. You can sit in your cell and– and– to the point where you’re like, uh, my friend Kevin Connel, who he killed his girlfriend, shot her in the, uh, she cheated on him. Or left him, she didn’t even cheat on him, she left him. Shot her in the heart for touchin’ a guy, her hands, know what I mean, her lips were kissin’ them. And then he kills himself. You know what I mean? And when I– I want people to know that these are the options that you have. Well, you’re gonna sit and do your whole thirty years like me and be miserable for thirty years and just be happy and there’s hope that you’re happy when you get out because not everybody has my story.  Some guys are gettin’ out and they gotta turn back to drugs or some guys are gettin’ out and goin’ to Camden or Trenton or Newark. And they’re not gonna, know what I mean? So I just want people to just know, or just, just be awakened. I mean, it’s all about information and that’s all like, we are as humans is, is information that we take in, that we process. You know. ‘N, ‘n my views have changed on a lot of stuff. Uh. That I, know what I mean? ‘Cause I had– People just had like a– I guess you could say habituated, uh, demeanors and stuff like, uh– Like, I had, one of my professors, Ben. We argued up and down on the rights and wrongs of gay and, and lesbian and, and that was like five years ago. And now I have a totally different view on it and I’m more sympathetic, because I know people that have family members that I’ve met that are, know what I mean, and I know how they feel and, I, and I know them as people. And I know the hurt that they live with by how other people hurt them because of what they are. So like that, bein’ enlightened like that, helps me to be able to like, I don’t– I don’t want that guy to feel like that. So I’m not gonna make him feel uncomfortable around me or her feel uncomfortable around me. And– and–and– and we were just arguin’ fives years ago about, you know, (laughs) me and my so called uh, uh– Uh, values, against, you know, the values he was tryin’ to push and, and now we share the sames values and it’s all from information. It’s like, nothin’, nobody uh– Nobody, nobody saved my life or gave me a kidney to make me change my mind. It’s just simple information. And– and– and, and bein’ awakened and enlightened. And, and if that could do that to me, with, uh, my stubbornness, then it has to change, be able to change somebody else. And that’s, like I said, that’s what it’s all about. Information. And just– Stories and information. I mean– I mean, the more you read the more you know, the more you know what I mean? The more stories you, or– or– or life events that people share with you, and. I mean, uh. I don’t know if you know Regina, Regina Diamond? Uh, she’s the head of staff?

Uh, I don’t, I don’t recognize the name. I–

Yeah well, I mean–

I’ve been introduced to a whole,–

Yeah–

a whole bunch of new folks, um, so–

Her and her, you know, her and her wife know me. I mean, I mean. You would have never got me to say that five years ago, “Her and her wife,” and accept that. And, and. But I know her as a person, and she’s like one of the most beautiful women in the world, and if she– she loves it? Then I love it. You know what I mean? But, like I said, it’s all about information that made me like that. There’s– there’s nobody, nobody saved my life or nobody changed my life to the point where I had to say now that, uh, um– Like me and Chris White, my Christian brother. That, that, know what I mean, he didn’t give me a kidney to make me say that, you know what I mean? Well, Christians and Muslims and Jews are the same. Uh. And Regina Bell didn’t, uh, Regina Bell didn’t give me a heart or a transplant to say that gay and lesbians deserve to be married too like everybody else! (laughs) You know what I mean? With just the information that findin’ out about, you know, people and knowin’ people on a personal level. And once people, you know, get to know my story on a personal level, then hopefully it will change them before it, you know, they either commit a crime or, or even, or– or– or they get it and just pocket it until they can say what, you know, “I met this guy Sulaimani on the bus, he just did thirty years and the, and the guy is happy as hell to be out. You sure you wanna do that?” Know, they might just give it to somebody else! Know what I mean? And that’s just, that’s how all of us are. So. Ryan Peterson, famous (inaudible) and the list goes on of guys that got down, guys that are comin’ out. Russell Owens, Oren, these people would know me. We’re known as criminals and we just came out. Phenomenal people. And then that’s who I, pretty much who I hang with. (laughs) You know what I mean? ‘Cause I can trust them to get in my car and not have drugs on’em, and if the police pull us over, I mean, I’ma be okay ‘cause I have cards and PBA cards and everything. But I don’t know this guy’s gonna stick this pin on me and the inside pocket of my car. Know what I mean? But I can trust these guys because I know their heart is, is changed because, you know, they could, they can be doin’ what they’re gonna be doin’ now. You know, if they’re gonna be doin’ something wrong they can do it now. But these guys are about family, education, about humanity, about, I don’t know, buildin’ society up’n makin’ it better and just makin’ it all’n livable for everybody. That’s just what I hope what my story does for someone else. Enlightens them.

Is there anything that I didn’t ask that you were expecting, or thought I might ask you?

Um, not that I can remem– No, I mean, nothin’ I can focus on now, but I guess if anything, I mean, my life– my story, is– is, you know– Is, uh– I’m willin’ to fall on any swords, you know, to– to– to enlighten people. So, know what I mean, it’s like you can ask whatever you want. There– there is no, know what I mean? ‘Cause I want people to know. And, uh, you know, I have no shame in tellin’ it because if– if– if– if– if I lived it, and I lived it, then it’s a part of me, and– and I want people to know. So and that’s just, you know. So if you have any questions that I didn’t speak of, feel free! 

Uh, it’s a– a, you’re a pretty great storyteller. Um. And I don’t think I don’t have any follow-up questions left. So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna stop the recorder now.

(00:12:16)

[END OF RECORDING THREE]