Jimmie Staton is an active member of the New Brunswick community. Mr. Staton’s narration offers reflections on white flight, racism, inner city schools, and being Black in America in the 21st century.
“I hope that this information, uh, would help not only the cause for Black and, uh, underserved people, but as a healing tool [pause], no more like an elixir that you can take that can change a mindset and change a feeling. Because [sighs] anytime that you’re suppressed, I have to always remind people, ‘Be careful not to adapt the attributes of your oppressor.’ Because as soon as someone like me makes some money, we’re going to result to what has happened to us, and we’re gonna do it to someone else that we can suppress or that we can surveil or that we can feel better about ourself, because we’re up here and they’re down there. [sighs] So that is something that I hope that this whole endeavor forms as an elixir that we all can take on schedule and collectively so we can all heal from the– the– the woes and the ails of the world. Whether we was the– the– the, uh, the– the benefactor or we were the perpetrated. [pause] From this whole [pause, laughs] mess of, uh, [laughs] of a society. You know, the good and the bad is all un– all– all– all needed, however we need a cleansing. We need an elixir that’ll give us a cleansing and it’ll change our mindset to feel and think differently and move forward in a the direction of love for all mankind, and if it does that, then, you know, my rants and rambling was all worth it.”
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More [2]: William “Sandy” Darity and Kirsten Mullen, “Black Reparations and the Racial Wealth Gap,” Brookings, June 15, 2020.
Learn More [3]: Stephen Smith and Kate Ellis, “History Shows Slavery Helped Build Many U.S. Colleges and Universities,” APM Reports, September 4, 2017.
Learn More [4]: Donna Bryson, “Making Amends: The History of Reparations,” Reuters, June 27, 2023.
Learn More: Kimberly Underwood, “Why America Needs More Black Male Teachers,” EdSurge, August 28, 2019.
Learn More [3]: Wendy Sawyer, “Visualizing the Racial Disparities in Mass Incarceration,” Prison Policy Initiative, July 27, 2020.
Learn More [4]: Nkechi Taifa, “Race, Mass Incarceration, and the Disastrous War on Drugs,” Brennan Center for Justice, May 10, 2021.
Learn More [2]: “23 Billion,” EdBuild, accessed October 19, 2023.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Dan Swern
New Brunswick, New Jersey
March 28, 2023
Transcription by Charly Santagado
Annotations by Michael Nazzaro
[00:00:00]
Today is Tuesday, March 28th, 2023. It’s 11:08AM. This is Dan Swern interviewing
Jimmie Staton.
Uh, Mr. Staton, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story and– and meet with me this morning.
Honored, honored.
[laughs] Whenever you’re ready, please feel free to start from the beginning.
Alrighty, um, my first experience with white flight– I didn’t realize it was a thing until, oh, forty, fifty years later. I grew up in Newark. I was born in North Carolina and came up to Newark and [pause] that alone was just an interesting change. So the school system, I went to school with all cultures in Newark, uh, oddly enough, Asian, Irish, uh, Indian, Hispanic, white, and I didn’t see anything [pause] other than that, so that became my norm from, uh, kindergarten all the way to at least the fourth grade. Maybe fifth grade. Uh, I realized that over maybe a course of a summer– it felt like a day, but my neighbors which were white, Asian, Black, [pause] and the likes. The whites were moving out of the neighborhood and it didn’t really affect me. I just knew that one of my good friends on the block said that, “Hey, you know we’re moving into a big house, yada yada.” So I’m thinking, “Okay. Well I’ll come home. I’ll talk to my dad. Figure out when we’re moving to our big house.” And he described the lawn, and he had a backyard. The house was big. He’s gonna finally have his own room. His sisters and brothers were gonna have their own room. So, I was excited because I thought yeah I was up next. For my family to be moving. Uh, turns out that only the white families [pause] were leaving. So the neighborhood now was Hispanic and Black. And even my best friend David Eng, in the fourth grade. He was Asian. Somehow they were able to move from our neighborhood, which I thought was a good neighborhood because I didn’t have anything to compare it to other than the South, which the South has an outhouse, so having indoor bathroom– that was, to me that was the ultimate luxury, and then I realized later on that we were poor and we were in the, uh, hood so to speak. So, th– those experiences, uh, left a– an impact in my life because not only did the whites f– move from the neighborhood [stutters]. There weren’t whites in the schools any longer. At least in my school. And the funding went along with it. I noticed that there were a lot of budget cuts, a lot of the teachers that I [pause] saw the year before I didn’t see anymore and the sense of caring seemed different from the teachers. It was an– an energy that I couldn’t put my finger on, but I know it just felt different. Our– our books weren’t new anymore. We had to share books and, uh, [pause] they were from old other schools so the books was older, they was written in, and that was the time where you wrote your name in the book. And that was your book, so I’m reading a book with someone else’s name that I’ve never met before because these books came from another school. And, uh, and again the teachers seemed different.
I noticed the stress in my, uh, household was to be different because my mother benefited from affirmative action and she had a city job working for the Department of Recreation and, pretty– pretty savvy and great position because my mom would be g– getting dressed up to go to work and she would always be getting invited to these dinners and, uh, events, and she hobnobbed with the mayor so, yeah, felt like it was important. My dad was a, uh, supervisor or manager at this company called Mold Cast where they created lights for the entire world and, uh, I don’t know if he was offered the opportunity when the company moved out of state or if he refused the opportunity, but [pause] I noticed that our income and our household was a little tighter and it was a lot more stress with my mom and dad. Because of finances and, uh, I guess my father didn’t feel like he was a man or the man anymore because, you know, he’s not working now. Uh, so he always drank, but the drinking became heavier and abuse against my mom became more evident because of frustration. My mom, uh, I guess, you know, being a Black woman, a strong-willed Black woman that, you know, had a modicum of success. You know, she went to take a, uh, clerk job in a department store. And that was demeaning enough, but she held her head up and did that job to the best of her ability and brought something home. My father, uh, I don’t know if his ego wouldn’t allow him to take, uh, something more subservient or beneath him or. It was just that he just couldn’t cut it. So, yeah. Mother and father went through different trials and errors and break up and– and [pause] I can tie this to white flight because it affected our family in many ways. And there’s other things, racism and, uh, um, uh, Blacks not being seen as a whole human being and– just the, um, the disparities therein and everything that’s connected to and around. And there’s no support system or safety net for Black people, Black families. Especially Black men.
You know, my mom wound up getting on assistance to help with– by getting food stamps and things of that nature, and, uh, different government services. We’d get the government cheese. Yeah, so, it was a lot of grilled cheese sandwiches. A lot of mac and cheese. A lot of [pause, laughs] just blocks of cheese. Just eating on that. So [pause], yeah. And, uh, it affected me current day because now I realize that I never wanted to be put in that position where [pause] I’m left out. Even in my relationships. Dating. I always felt– like I didn’t never wanted to be left. I’m gonna backtrack. I was born in North Carolina. My father came up north a year after I was born to, uh, stake his roots, if you will, with the, uh, northern migration. Uh, and then about two and a half, three years later sent for my mom and then [pause] a few more years after sent for me, so when I came up I was– I came from being celebrated as if I was Jesus Christ, because I was the first and only grandchild in the South, to coming up north, and by then my mom and dad had [pause] two daughters so I had siblings that I had to share [pause] this love with so that was weird. My last name was my mother’s last name because, of course, this is– I was born before my mother and father even thought about getting married. So that put a interesting strain on me because I always thought I was adopted and I always felt I was treated different. Uh, I didn’t feel that specialness. And then when [pause] when– when the poverty really sunk in. I mean, I guess we were always poor [pause] in retrospect, but because of the love I didn’t– I never felt it in the South. And I never felt it up north until my father lost his job and my mother lost her job and she had to [inhales] resort to working these really low paying overburdening jobs. So, uh, I moved my life. I moved around in my life [pause] in a way that I didn’t ever want it to experience abandonment or experience not being wanted or being let go. Whether it was a [mumbles] personal relationship, a friendship, a job, sexual relationship. Or just a community. I didn’t wanna live in a neighborhood where I really wasn’t wanted, but I didn’t wanna live in a neighborhood where it was, uh, not advantageous for me to live in because of poverty or because of, uh, a mindset. So I was torn. You know, my Blackness was questioned a lot [laughs] because I had a different view on what I wanted to do with my life and how I saw myself as in perspective to where I was or [pause] how I was seeing. [pause] So, did a lot of investing. I did a lot of saving. Because even on my first day after graduating college and even my first day of work, uh, they was [laughs], they were actually forcing a very old white man out. They thought they were being kind with it, but I felt that it was really rude and over the top and obnoxious the way that they were treating this man. And the– his family didn’t want him home because, you know, when– the paychecks were better with him going to work, but the job couldn’t use him because [inhales], you know, pretty much aged out and technology was coming in and [exhales] they just wanted to do things differently. So, I didn’t realize I was being prepped for his job, but I wasn’t gonna get his salary, so then I started. Yeah, like ten years later I realized that, wow. I fell for the old okey doke. So [laughs], but I says I’m gonna make the best out of the situation. [pause] Uh, yeah. So, it affected my personal relationships because I always felt like the other shoe was going to drop. Even dating, I just knew that, you know, I’m not enough or you like the idea of me, but not the actuality of me. Because [pause] things are gonna change and if I lose my job, will you still love me? [laughs] Will you still care or will I still be the man or will I be a man? Because o– of past experience, I equated manhood with being able to provide, you know, the– the three P’s. Profess, protect, and [pause] provide. So I figured if I couldn’t provide, I had no reason or no right to profess. And I can’t protect anything that can easily be taken away from me. So, those three P’s was important. [pause] And it’s hard when you see [pause] that if I stay in a neighborhood that is [pause] declining, I’m gonna be a part of the decline. If I move into a neighborhood where it’s a little more successful, and there’s no one that looks like me there. [pause] And I’m really not wanted there, so where do I fit in? So that’s been a struggle all my life based on the earlier experiences of what I went through with the white flight. And I didn’t really truly know how– knew– knew how to identify what I experienced. What I witnessed. And how it affected me.
[00:12:54]
Uh, emotionally, financially, physically. My health, wealth, and happiness was compromised and at every turn because I didn’t know what to do with what was happening around me, to me. [sighs] When it came to the disparities in how things are, and then I heard of this program, uh [pause], some kind of Homestead Act where these moneys were made available and– but there’s no real record of that, but [pause] I know that I personally witnessed and watched– like it seems like overnight, my friends that didn’t look like me– that didn’t matter before they left seemed to matter a lot after they left. And the reasons why. They left me. Which they didn’t leave me, but it felt as if [pause] they didn’t wanna catch poverty, and I was poverty so leaving me, leaving people that look like me, leaving communities where there’s a lot of people that look like me, was a disease you did not wanna catch. And [pause] and I was born with that disease so I felt like, damn, what can I do to get rid of that? And even though I became very successful, I still had the markings of being Black, which is just tied to poverty unless I do some, s– singing or athletic [pause] prowess to get me out. And even then I’m still, first thing, it’s like, he’s a Black man. Not he’s a man. Or he’s a successful man or he’s a good man. So [long pause]. I think that’s it for now. And, uh, talking about it and understanding what it is and why it is. It’s therapeutic, but it’s traumatic at the same time because I have to live [sighs] with the repercussions and– of– of– of– of, uh, survivor’s remorse. [laughs] Versus I can’t do anything to help myself out this situation at all. I have a 14 year old son. And [pause] when I had to have the talk with him about police brutality and coming home, and arriving alive, and how to conduct yourself in the streets when being approached by a police officer or anyone that doesn’t look like you or even people that look like you. I had this talk with him [pause] when he was [pause] 9. I didn’t wanna ever have that talk with him. And then I had to tell him my story and what I experienced. And I saw the youth leave his eyes. The hope. The joy. And it was replaced with fear. And that was to me one of the worst things that I could ever do to my son. Even though [pause] it was necessary because I need to prepare him for the world. And I says wow, white [pause] fathers don’t have to have this conversation with their child. Asian [pause]– they probably have other conversations, but it’s never life or death. When it comes to just being who you are and what you are. So [pause] I just [pause] don’t want this to be generationally passed as a curse. Without being able to do something about [inhales] history not repeating itself and [pause] a way for us to have a safety net for us to do better. A collective and even with civil rights, I knew that it took Jews and other cultures, uh, to help pass the Civil Rights Act. They even had to add handicap and white women in order just to give us Blacks freedoms that should be afforded to everyone no matter what they look like or what culture they are. So [long pause] thank you for allowing me this time to just share and vent and, uh, get through this thing.
Um, Mr. Staton, when we first spoke you had mentioned, uh it– it takes a village when you were talking about growing up in North Carolina.
Mhm.
D– do you mind sharing a little bit about what it was like?
Well [sighs] the old adage it takes a village. Everyone [sighs] had a responsibility of raising the next generation. By words, feeding them, modeling a certain behavior. You know, grandmas, uncles, friends, rela– anyone, I mean, even the, uh, my grandmother and grandfather had a farm. Even the animals taught you how to teach them and treat them and, uh, so that was– was– was wonderful. The church. You had church friends. You know. Uh, I– I knew a couple of politicians that would come to my grandmom’s house just to just say hi and sit and hear stories. And [pause] and that was wonderful because these were role models that they had no idea or maybe they did have an idea that they were my role models. And then you come up north. It was more hustle and bustle. Everyone’s for theirself and just tryin’ to get through their day. And it was like the height of the Civil Rights Movement so it was a lot of anger. A lot of frustration. A lot of fear. A lot of poverty. A lot of living on top of each other in these apartment complexes and buildings. A lot of people on the street tryin’ to figure it out. You know, broken people trying to give it another broken person. And all they could do was just break each other at the end of the day. Produce children that are broken. So I just knew there had to be something better because I saw better. [pause] I hope I answered the question. [laughs]
Do you mind sharing a little bit about your siblings?
Okay, I have two younger sisters. Um, five and seven years apart. And [pause] they are wonderful. They are– are– are– are– are fun. They [pause] have a warped sense of [pause] reality when it came to what happened in the household with my dad and my mom as far as physical abuse and poverty. I think they were shielded from it because they were a lot younger and they didn’t know, and then they had me to actually watch them. Uh, so, they only saw the fun times and they have s– somewhat memories of the not so good times when my father would go in and out of, um, [pause] mental awareness, because he used to have these nervous breakdowns. That’s what they called them back then. And he would have these bouts of, um, uh, mental instability and had to be hospitalized and put on medications and things, so my sisters don’t remember a lot of that. They don’t remember a lot of the physical abuse. ‘Cause they were again a lot younger. But they managed to somehow be okay. They’re both professionals. One lives in– in Washington. The other one is still living in Newark, and, uh, their relationships [pause] are different with, uh, a mate. And I don’t wanna go in to much into that with when it comes to their personal business, but I just know that they’re affected by the environment and, uh, disparity and what they see in the images and– and I think I’m the only positive or one of the only positive male role models that they can actually see, touch, taste, feel. And here [pause] that has a successful or [pause] mostly successful marriage. And family unit. So, I have a moral obligation to make sure that I make this marriage and, uh, my life work so I can be a m– a role model or a– a beacon of hope. So if they can’t do it, they says hey, my brother did it. And there is [pause] there has to be good Black men out there because my brother is one. So, I’m hoping this is what they’re feeling and seeing. Or not and they’re happy just the way they are. Either way, I just wanna have a positive impact on my community, uh, my family, and everyone that I come in contact with. [long pause] Next? [laughs]
How did you, uh, you and your wife meet?
[00:23:17]
[inhales] I met my wife oddly enough at a time where I wanted to, uh, not date anyone. I wanted to find out pretty much what was wrong with me. Why I kept going through a series of meet, date, doesn’t work out, or I’ll sabotage the relationship and I think I had a fear of beginnings. I know that might sound weird, but I had a fear of beginnings and, uh, I think more so because I knew the end was inevitable. And of death. I know, uh, termination, firing. Breakups. Um, I just knew that that was gonna happen, so if I didn’t begin, don’t have to worry about the end. And it worked for me. A– for awhile. And, uh, I was at a point where I did not want to get married because I saw my mom and dad and I didn’t see any successful Black marriages. [inhales] And, uh, marriages with different cultures, it seemed so much harder as far as cultural differences, backgrounds, making sure my trauma can get along with your trauma. [laughs] It’s hard enough with Black relationships so [pause] having an interracial relationship– I don’t even think they call it that anymore, it just seemed too far fetched, and– and– and– and– and opportunities like that never happened. Yes I was attracted to different cultures, but never to the point where I wanted to pursue and maybe vice versa or I w– I just closed my mind to it so maybe the opportunities came, but I just [pause] was daft and just didn’t get it. Like, oh she did like me? Oh, cool! [mumbles] Too late now. Or just– it just didn’t happen. Because it probably wasn’t meant to be. So I met my wife [pause], I stayed at my job and I– I– I worked in the library and I did medical research and things of that nature, so I was hangin’ around working on something and my wife was looking for a certain section where she can get these journals. She was going to school for nursing. Ah, getting an advanced degree in nursing, mind you. And I– I know how the front desk, they don’t care. They didn’t get up to check, rude, obnoxious, they don’t wanna work. They’re not gonna get off their ass. So she’s walking around looking so, like, I help everyone, I asked her, “Hey can I help you with something?” And she said, “Oh, I’m looking for yada yada yada,” so I said, “Okay, let me assist you.” So, some things she was able to get. Some things she wasn’t so [pause] I learned in college in– when I was doing work study that there’s a s– system called inter-library loan where you can get any book anywhere in the world for free. That’s how I got through school because I couldn’t afford books. I was on a ramen noodle and Slim Jim diet. [laughs] That was, you know, that was my jam. So, uh, cause that’s all I could afford. So I couldn’t really afford books, but this way I was able to get books and I was savvy enough to talk to professors and flatter them, and they would give me their personal copies, which were highlighted and with everything that there’s gonna really use in the– in the course, so that worked for me. So anyway I did the inter-library loan for her and, uh, so I had her information on the form and I was like okay cool. So I gave it to– the next day I gave it to the person in the department that actually does this stuff and I says, “Do me a favor. When it comes, let me know so I can call her.” And they’re like, “Oh, Jimmy finally likes somebody.” I’m like, “Nah, not really.” It’s just that I wanted to see it through. Because I see how everyone drops the ball, you know. They’re like, you know no one does the extra. And that’s me. I– I– I take the extra step. So I did and, but in the meantime we would talk periodically. She would call to ask if it came and I’m like, “Nah nah, still, you know.” So we would talk periodically, and I’d call and let her know that, “Hey, it didn’t come yet, but,” you know, “still working on it. I’m researching it and it looks like it’s in Indiana or wherever.” So we would chat and talk and we [pause] became familiar. So then when it came I finally called her house. Gr– and her mother answered the phone because she was living with her mother. I was living alone, but she was living with her mother at the time. And her mother answered the phone and says, told her, she calls her Joy, says, “Joy, some white man called you. [laughs hysterically] Here’s the number.” So she says let me call this white man and lo and behold it’s me. Because I guess I spoke with proper diction or maybe I put a little extra on because I wanted to sound impressive. So [pause] yeah so she was happy and, uh, we talked a little more after and then she finally asked me, she was invited to a retirement party so she asked if I would come with her. So I’m like, cool, I wasn’t doing anything and I didn’t think anything serious. It was just someone nice to talk to. So we went, had a good time, found out that we knew a lot of the same people, and a lot of people gave me great comments and recommendations and– and accolades about who she was and vice versa. So [pause] at the end of the endeavor, I dropped her off and I says, “Hey, this was a great first date.” [pause, squeaking sound] “Wait this is not a date because if it was a date, you wouldn’t have called me and you woulda had, uh, an agenda where we was gonna go and you woulda had a restaurant.” So after she blew me out on that, I was like, “Okay, I apologize.” You know, “Thank you for inviting me. Have a great night.” So [pause] usually that would be my cue to like, you know what? I’m outta here. But I took it as a personal challenge. I says okay, she must be a professional dater. Let me show her how I date so every day it was either a Broadway show, a concert, dinner, movies, a– a– a lunch at a park. It was always something. And after about three months she says, [pause] “I surrender. You proved your point. [laughs] I spoke outta turn. I’ve never been on a date. So I wanted to make sure that this wasn’t going to be like the last.” So I was like wow, so she was telling me her pain and her experiences up until that point. Then I finally lift so we started, uh, I guess so-called dating, yeah we were dating because I says, you know, “I don’t want us to just be just floating, so, let’s put a title on this thing and actually.” You know. So then I got a chance to meet her dad. Her mom and dad, you know, and, uh, and of course Dad, you know, he wasn’t used to boys coming to the house because she didn’t date! You know, not really. She called herself going out thinking it was a date, but that wasn’t a date. Uh, so he says, “Yeah yeah nice,” you know. He says, “Yeah I hear that you’re her boyfriend now,” and I says, “Well yeah, I consider myself and I asked her and, uh,” and he says, “Yeah because she, you know, you’d be her first real boyfriend.” She was pissed because she didn’t want me to me to know that. It’s like, I don’t want you to know I’m a rookie at this thing. So we laugh now, then you know, uh, it’s so funny, and then I asked her. And th– Jamaican heritage. mom and dad. So I asked for her dad’s blessing. Not permission when I proposed to my wife. My now wife. And he says, “I’ll think about it.” [laughs hysterically] He’s passed, many years ago. [pause] Still thinking about it. Never [laughs]. Was at the wedding and everything. [laughs] But it was just interesting because of, ah, I know you’re thinking Black– Black, but it’s Jamaican Black versus American Black. Two different Blacks. Two different dichotomies altogether. So that was interesting and winning over the family and, uh, understanding everyone’s trauma. Because, you know, there was a lot of pain and trauma there too, culturally, uh, generationally and, systemically. So [pause] I realized, wow, two broken people that came from brokenness. We have a chance to either fix each other or break each other. [laughs] So I says I gotta be a proponent for change and I gotta f– you know, I’ve realized that [pause] the only way relationships work is mutual submission and nobody keepin’ score. And that’s hard. [whispered] For both parties to sign up on and agree to and commit to just that. Forget about the cheating and– and– and– and the everything else that is supposedly considered a relationship. But those two things is the core, and if you can do that you can conquer the world. So yeah. So now seventeen years after in a marriage that is trying at every turn, but it’s one of the most [pause] fun and interesting things that I’ve experienced. And not learning her. Learning me. That’s the part that [pause] I love the most because every day I’ve learned something new about me that I– and I’ve been with me all my life. Had no idea who I was, what I was made of. Breaking points. Pressure points. What turns me on, off. Uh, how I see myself, why I see myself that way. Who I am, who I want the world [pause] to believe I am. [pause] And who the world tries to tell me I am are in constant conflict. So. And trying to do that with someone that has their own idea of what life [pause] with a spouse is supposed to be. And coming to terms with the, uh, [pause] finding a middle ground. Which it never is. It never is. [pause] But it’s beautiful. Black love is beautiful. It’s crazy. It’s chaotic. It’s messy. [pause] It’s hard. It’s fun. Sexy as hell. And it’s always on display to be challenged internally and externally. And it’s a constant battle of wills. Internally. [pause] So. M’kay. I’m ready for the next question.
[00:34:47]
And, uh, when does your son come into the picture?
Ah, he came in. I– I– I– I engaged my wife [pause], uh, for one year. No, we dated for a year, engaged for a year, and then we got married, and I asked my wife if we can hold off for the year before trying to create a family. Because I wanted to know who she was and I needed to learn who I was with her before we bring anyone else into this equation. So the year after us living, ah, being married together, we created a son and, you know, we got married in 2006. He came 2008? Yeah 2008. February 2008. And, uh, and– and then that’s funny. Trying to [pause, sighs] blend our upbringing and our rearing and how we were parented and what we believed parenting should look like. Bring that together. And to hope to not destroy this one human being. [pause] Because he has his own opinion on [laughs] things. Always have. And I love that about him because he sees the world differently. He sees himself in the world differently. And, uh, [pause] he’s forever hopeful, which I love and I hope that never changes. You know, even though we had the talk and he’s– the internet and the news doesn’t make it easy. But he– [pause] is an optimist. And that feels good. [long pause]
I wanted to ask about, um, the transition between North Carolina and New Jersey. Um, a word you used with me last time was abandonment and that feeling you have. Can you talk a little bit about what that transition process was? Who was taking care of you while your parents
Yes.
Were [unintelligible]?
My dad, uh, when I was born, my dad decided to come up north to get a job, which, you know, the Great Migration. That happened a lot. You know, Detroit, New York, Newark. Yeah these are all places that was prosperous. A lot of factories. A lot of businesses. Uh, they said the streets were paved with gold. And ya– you know, people believed it. And I was looking forward to that when I came to Newark. No gold on the streets. [laughs] But, um, yeah my father came up a year after I was born or, you know, in that time period, and then sent for my mother two years later and– and, you know, two and half years later sent for me. Uh, so I always felt and I would always ask, you know, “Why did Mom and Dad leave me?” Even though I had a great time with my grandmother ‘cause I loved her more than [pause] good cooked food ‘cause, a lot of good cooked food. Um, but I always felt left. [pause] And I struggled with that. [smacks lips] Uh, I wasn’t left. My grandmother wouldn’t give me up. And they did not know how to tell me that because they wanted me to revere, honor, love, and respect my grandmother, which I would’ve anyway, but they didn’t want to fear– they didn’t even wanna have the fear of me saying, “Oh my grandmother held me from my parents so I missed all these crucial years,” or whatever. So yeah my grandmother really believed that [pause] I guess I’d be better off with her. I don’t know if it was because I was the first grandchild or loneliness or. And may– maybe I was the shield from her getting abused from my grandfather. [pause] Now that I think about it, yeah I never saw any violence even though my uncles would tell me stories about how abusive my grandfather was. I never experienced it. And I was well enough– well aware to know what– what– what– what was what. And, um, yeah. [pause] And my father experienced a similar thing because it’s rumored that he was born out of wedlock, and I think it was not by choice, but by force because my grandmother worked in tobacco fields, so it was like pseudo slavery. You got very little, you worked in the field all day. Uh, yeah, like pretty much like [mutters] like a day laborer, but in the South. So [pause] yeah, I– all my uncles and my grandfather are very dark. My grandmother was [pause] I would say tan. She wasn’t very light, but out of all of my uncles, my father was the lightest. I mean, like, almost pale. So, yeah my grandfather never, uh, [pause] accepted my dad, even though my dad was the one that took care of him in his later years when he was declining and dying. So that was interesting to see because my grandfather just had a disdain for my father. As if it was his fault, but it wasn’t his fault. [some background noise]
[End of First Recording]
[Beginning of Second Recording]
[sound of mic turning on] Alright.
So, yeah, so yeah– so my– my, probably my fear of abandonment started then. And, uh, I didn’t know the full story and I still didn’t get the full story, but I learned more that my grandmother wouldn’t let me go when I was in my thirties. So it was a lot that, uh, transpired that f– forced me to form my own opinion on [pause] I don’t know, the journey of me that was not correct. [pause] And my aunt had to [pause], uh, pretty much lie to her mother, my grandmother, and says, “Oh, I’m just gonna take him up to visit.” You know, “in Newark and I wanted to see what Newark is like, and you know I’ll bring him back.” She left me and I guess my mom and dad conspired with [laughs] my aunt so that this could be facilitated. Uh, I don’t know what happened with the relationship with my aunt and [pause] my grandmother or my dad, and, o– over all that [pause]. I know my grandmother wasn’t gonna go to court or nothing. My grandmother, you know, it was the South and, you know, they just didn’t do things like that you know. [pause] So. [pause] Yeah, uh, for years I thought that I was abandoned [pause] so I still had these struggles, well was I? Was I not? Because I would get half stories, and I come from an era where you just [pause] didn’t question much. You just accepted what was told even if it didn’t make sense. You know, like stories in the Bible. They don’t make sense, but you accept it, you know why? Because it’s the Bible. So you do the same things with your parents and your grandparents, you know. You don’t say, “But why but why but why?” And I wish I had the [pause] courage to keep asking why. Because they loved me so much that my grandmother woulda just told me. And then I think secretly I didn’t wanna know. I just liked the fact that I was loved now. And then when I came up north I didn’t know what was coming. It just happened and, uh, and then I come to see these two little [pause] things, like what are those? Oh those are your sisters. “Why?” [laughs] I eventually loved ‘em. I mean I tortured ‘em. You know, as big brothers do. [laughs] Um, but yeah I– I– I loved em, spoiled em, you know, even to this day. [long pause]
Are there any, um, stories from your childhood that have stayed with you? That you wanna share?
Yeah. [pause] There’s many, but there’s this one that– that s– sticks with me. I remember having a best friend. David Eng. And I think I considered him my– no, no we– I think we considered each other best friends, and we came together because he got beat up and I stood up for him. Now I didn’t know how to fight. I didn’t have big brothers to teach me how to fight. I just knew that it wasn’t right that, you know, these– they was picking on the only Asian kid, which, you know, I didn’t know him, but I knew that, you know, he can’t defend himself. So I stood up and I spoke out. I think that’s why I do a lot of speaking out when it– I see injustice. Even if it’s to my demise, uh. So I spoke up and, yeah, and him and I got beat up together. [laughs] So we were walking home, licking our wounds so to speak. So he says, I says, “I’ll walk you home,” and you know, because you got it worse than I did cause at least I fought. He didn’t f– he didn’t– he didn’t fight at all. I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing, or he just didn’t wanna fight, or fear. But he did not wanna fight. And this was before Bruce Lee so I know he ruled after Bruce Lee came out. I was like, oh you can walk down the street and do a move and everybody’s like, “Oh, leave him alone! He can fight!” Not really, but [laughs] but this was before Bruce Lee. And, uh, the– the martial art– artist, uh, movie [pause] icon. [inhales] Uh, yeah so we’re walking home, so I walked him to his house and I noticed that on this shelf he had a black rotary dial phone. A desktop. And it blew me away. I just thought it was the most elegant [pause] decadent richest [pause] object that anyone can pos– can possess because I’ve never seen a black rotary dial desk phone in my life. [inhales] In the Black community, either you had the wall mount avocado green phone or the– the s– wall mount slash desktop, uh, rust orange phone. Now I found out later that you never, the Black community, you never owned the phone. You leased it or rented it and you would get charged for this phone, and if you didn’t pay your service you had to bring the phone back and whatever [speaks under breath]. So every Black family that’s all I saw was either the avocado green or the orange because it was targeted to communities of color that, oh if you wanna be successful, you have to get one or two or both of these phones. You know, the corded landline plugged into the wall. And, but David Eng had a black phone so I says, “David Eng’s family must be, like, rich or they must be like, you know, the kings and queens of China!” That’s what I thought. Many, many, many, many, many years later I found out that the black phone was the free phone, and you actually owned the entire phone and your service was cheaper if you got the black phone. Talked to my mom many years later. She says, “No they never– never offered the black phone.” Talked to a lot of people. Says, “Oh they don’t offer the black phone.” And if they did they offered it in a way that you would feel less than if you did get it. You didn’t wanna be one of those people. So, yeah, so I was like, wow, how can they do that to the Black community that’s already poor? You know? And you would think it’s black. We’re considered or called black. You’d– that we’d want it. And it’s Black Power movement, so a black phone. Nah. Black people wanted Black pride, but they wanted to be as far as black as possible because it never served us in a positive way. From slavery to this very day. So, you know, you– you get a rapper or athlete that makes, you know, m– a modicum of success, but that’s not [pause] generational wealth. It’s not anything that can change a family or [pause] a lifestyle or a brand. It’s just a thing. So [pause] yeah. [pause] When I became, I think when I turned 40, the– that black telephone was like seared in my mind. It– a– I mean I had to suppress for awhile because I didn’t think nothing of it, then all of the sudden fast forward a few decades later I’m like, hey, I remember David Eng. I wonder what he’s doing. And the– I di– associate David Eng to the black telephone. And I says wow, wouldn’t it be cool if I had a black rotary dial telephone? So I looked into it, you know, found a couple of places that sold, you know, antique stuff. Then I says, wow, let me see if I can get someone to refurbish it so it can work now. I don’t wanna have a black phone that you can’t use. So they changed the wiring for today’s fiber optics and now I have a black rotary dial phone, and [pause] I’m not wealthy, but it was a sense of my childhood and also it was full circle. A full circle moment. It’s like wow, I’m back at one, but I [pause] defeated my oppressor. [church bell ringing in background] And that’s probably why no other culture respects Black culture because we’ve yet to defeat our oppressors. So I– I– and my oppressor was an idea of a brainwashing or a programming, and just to flip it on its head and turn it around and instead of using it as, uh, the thing that hurts me, I use it as the thing that catapulted me to where I can go [bell stops ringing]. Where I did go. So now when I h– I– I use my– ph– my phone, my black rotary dial desk phone, you know, it just feels [pause] I know it’s something silly, but I feel [pause] successful. [pause] Because I was programmed to believe one thing and now I learned something entirely different, and that little thing changed the way [pause] I perceived success, life, and being Black. Because I was programmed to believe, by I’m sure someone white, that if I wanted to appear successful, this is the way. And it’s the only way. I’d look around. Everyone’s doing it. And it only cost [pause] this. So it’s a lot of symbols. Symbolism in all of that. And I’m still discovering how it affected me, and how it changed me, and how it molded me and [pause] hampered me or stifled me. Or stymied me. In ways. But it grew me in other ways. [pause] And to just see things for what they are, but also see things for what you want it to be for you. [pause] Like, um, spices are good, but [pause] arsenic’s a spice. [laughs] You know. It’s like, yeah, but it’s healthy, it– you know. Organic. Arsenic is organic. So it means I, you know, all of that. No. I have to find out [takes breath] what it means to me. What it means for me, and how can I use this to [pause] to grow? And how can I use this to help demonstrate what success or growth looks like [music playing in background] without hurting myself or others or putting people in a feeling where they have to be reminded of their lack? So that’s another struggle. Uh [pause] that was my story of [laughs] that black rotary dial desk phone. [laughs]
Um, when did you discover education for yourself as an important value or something you wanted?
[00:12:38]
I discovered it when [pause] I’ve always known it was v– important, but I did not know how and why. I was always hungry to know and learn. I was an amazing student. And [pause] there was a door-to-door salesman that came knockin’ on our door. They were selling a complete set of the, uh, Britannica Encyclopedias. Super excited. Because I’m [pause] watching the guy sell and talk and demonstrate how all the information you’ll never need is in this twelve-volume set. Booked in by two dictionaries. That can, uh, transform your life. You’ll, you know, guaranteed your child will go to college. And, uh, everything in life that you need to know will be in these books. [pause] So that was the internet. And I was a voracious reader. I would read cover to cover, page to page, each and every one of them over and over, even though this information was antiquated before they [laughs] finished printing it. So I know, and it took my mom some years before they paid enough to be able to have the encyclopedias in the house and they still had to make payments, which means they was overcharged astronomically for some frikken’ antiquated books! So, yeah, I just know that my mom and dad was payin’ for those books, because I remember one time I left– left one of the books, I went to sleep and I had it open. And, uh, my mom and dad yelled at me. Woke me up. “The money we’re spending for these books! Gotta– gotta– this payment plan. We gotta pay for the next ten years.” And I’m like saying to myself, dang, ten years, that’s a lot of time, you know. [pause] By the time we finish, I’m gonna be 20! I think. But it was crazy. Now I look back at it. It’s like, damn. Got scammed again. Got bamboozled again. And, uh, my sisters didn’t care about it, but I would read this, you know, about different animals. Different locations. Different places. And, uh, it helped broaden my worldview and [pause] I could guess in Jeopardy when I watched it on TV [laughs]. Cause I’m clearin’ categories, and I’m like, holy shit, I didn’t know that I knew this. Then Schoolhouse Rock happened. It was a cartoon that, uh, talked about math, science, uh, politics, grammar, and it was a cartoon with music and a story, and it was like bumpers that came on between cartoons on Saturday, and I used to look forward to it. And that sparked something. Uh, so yeah they, uh, they– they, uh, they– the encyclopedias. That meant a lot and, uh, my mom and dad, they [laughs] they used that as bragging rights so when they have company, the first thing they’ll do is like, “We [laughs] have a set of Britannica Encyclopedias.” And it was a proud moment. It was like, uh, go over there and show em how to use em. They– they never opened it. I– I could’ve put a million dollars in it. They woulda never knew it was in there. And I’d go pull out one of the l– letters. T, and I’d go through it and I’m reading and I’m excited. Some of the stuff I didn’t even have to read because I committed it to memory. And it’s, “See it works!” You know, like, why didn’t my dad become a salesman for [pause], you know, Britannica and just did that. But that wasn’t a– an option that was afforded to him because, you know, Black people don’t want to buy from Black people, and [pause] and then, you know, whites didn't wanna see a Black person [pause] in their house trying to push encyclopedias. It’s like, nah. You know. It just– that– that– it just wouldnta worked. [pause] At that time in the sixties and seventies, you know. [long pause]
Um, what brought you to Rutgers Newark?
Uh, what brought me to Rutgers Newark? Um, convenience. It was right there. [laughs] Why not? Uh, my parents didn’t go to college, so they didn’t know how to tell me how to get into college. So they just says go to college, so I figured, you know, when I graduate just walk down the street. Go to the building. Okay hospital. Okay laundromat. College. [knocks three times] I’m here. That’s– I just thought. So I missed a year because I didn’t know that I had to prep. By the time I got to high school I became less interested in getting great grades. [pause] I was into, you know, just having fun. Chasing girls. I think I’m numbing my pain and dodging the real world. Because I know what it is. I knew what it wasn’t. And I said, ‘cause as long, the long– the longest I can escape the reality and the horrors of what is out there, I’m going to do it. [pause] So I realized that there were things that I had to do for the application process, and I wasn’t a great student, so guidance counselors, they favored [pause] the high achieving and then they tried to help the low hanging fruit by offering them [mumbles] Army. Navy, Airforce, Marine. Or some had a trade school or. Just get a job. I was in the middle. [smacking sound] So they didn’t even know what to tell me. Like, “Well what do you wanna do?” So depending on the counselor and the day [pause] “C’mon, go to service. Read. Here’s the pamphlet. Bye.” “I wanna go to college.” “Oh great, you ever, you know the school?” “Eh, what schools are out there?” “Oh there’s Rutgers here, there’s NJIT.” “Okay well.” “Alright well have at it.” [laughs and mutters] Okay this is it? And it was a great disservice, but, you know, the school system, they didn’t really care. You know now, if you had promise and had these great grades, you know, yeah, you might get some attention. You might be sold the dream that, hey if you work hard, you know, whatever. [pause] You know, that was an interesting experience. But I got through it, figured it out, and I says, you know what? I’m gonna– I’m gonna enjoy this. I mean I wasn’t getting the greatest grades, but I didn’t fail. I didn’t flunk out. Statistics kicked my ass though. I think I failed that year and I had to take a, um, uh, a make up course at Essex County College just to get me on track, you know. I barely passed, but I was grateful because I was able to, uh, transfer those credits and, you know, take somethin’ else, and I’m like, phew, I’m outta here. And I don’t ever wanna see that again [laughs]. [pause]
You mentioned, um, building relationships at– at Rutgers. Um, culturally diverse relationships. Is there anything you might share a little bit about that?
[00:21:00]
Ah, yes. And it wasn't by choice. It was by circumstance. When I was at school, of course [pause] you stick with your tribe. You know, because even if you try to hang out with someone that’s not like you. If– if, now if I was raised in a community where there were other cultures, then I would hang with the culture that I am more familiar with. But I lived, after white flight, in a predominantly Black and Hispanic community. Uh, more so Black. So, I– as the semesters would pass, I would see my group dwindling or changing because, let’s face it, kids was failing out. Girls was getting pregnant. Drugs. Uh, losing interest. So [pause] my group kept changing the dynamics, and I would always see a table with [pause] a lot of Asian ch– kids. And I would notice it would be one kid missing from the table. There would be one empty seat, and I’m like okay. And then I’m studying, and I’m like wait a minute. Okay I know him. I saw him last week. I saw him. Ah, I know who’s missing. So I would watch and everyone was talking and smoking weed and talking about, you know, chasing girls or [pause] getting some dude or joining a frat or whatever. I was focused on [pause] that table. I don’t know why that table seemed illuminated to me. Then I would look at the Dean’s List. And the Dean’s List. Asian, Jews, Russian. Maybe a sprinkle in that possibly could be someone Black if their last name was Brown, I’d just assume. I realize that that’s, you know, could be a Jewish person’s [pause] name that’s Brown, but. ‘Cause it had a E at the end so [laughs]. I was like, oh they’re just tryin’ to be fancy. A fancy Negro. Like no no. [laughs] But again, you don’t know. [coughs] So [coughs] but I– I did notice that the Asians dominated the Dean’s List, and I said “I wanna be a part of that.” So [pause] mid-conversation I just got up from my Black table [pause] and sat in the empty chair at the Asian table. Now they looked at me like, [pause] “Dude are you lost? [laughs] What do ya want?” And I’m like, “No no, go on, continue.” [laughs] And they’re still like questioning, like what is going on? This has never happened. I’m thinkin in their mind. I’m putting it in my own, uh, dialogue, but this has never happened, and what is it that he wants? Is he here to hurt us or whatever. So then I explained to them, like, “Look, I wanna do better in school. I wanna be excited about school. My grades– I wanna make the Dean’s List. How do you do it?” They’re asking me, like, “What do you mean how do you do it?” Like, no, “How do you– how did– how do you do it?” “Oh we study.” And I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah I study too, but I’m not on the Dean’s List. How do you do it? How do everybody at this table do it?” And they admitted that one of us [laughs] would go to the class and give the information to all of us, ‘cause we’re all basically takin’ the same thing. We don’t all need to go to class. Just one of us. We’re all gonna get the information, right? Long as we get the information to pass the test, do well, we’ll be just fine. One set of books. We all don’t need the same books that we’re not gonna [laughs], that you only use a couple of chapters in and then it’s over. Like, one set of books. And then, you know, we pass it down to somebody that looks like us coming in. That’s taking the same courses. Same, uh, area of study. [pause] And I’m like, damn that’s genius! So [pause] I was in the Asian clique for a while and [laughs]– and then I got them into the coolest parties. So now they got street cred, so, you know it was a reciprocal relationship. You know, a couple of them was like really interested in Black and Hispanic girls, so, you know. I was liaison. So now that I think about of it, I sound like a pimp. [laughs] It’s horrible, but anyway [laughs], but yeah I would introduce ‘em and I would vouch for them like, “Hey,” you know, “he’s cool!” You know? He likes the same kinda music. You know, he’s into the arts. You know, they had more– disposable income so, yeah, it was worth dating somebody that could take ya out, show you places and take you to a theater or show. You know, had a car. You know, so, they just showed me a lot! Learned a– then I learned– and then I met other people from other cultures that wanted to [pause] meet me because I seemed interesting. I seemed fascinating. It’s– so I wasn’t just [pause], uh, one-dimensioned. I wasn’t this stereotypical type of Black guy. It’s like, man, everybody knows him and respects him. And, you know, the Asians, they was like, “Oh Jim, he’s–oh he’s the coolest, he’s nice da da da.” And the whites, Irish, Jews, and so I– I– I kinda circled back to where I was in– in– in elementary school with hangin’ out with different cultures. So college I had to force that relationship to happen. And, it wasn’t easy. Now that I think back, uh, it seemed like it happened over night just one sitting and next you know I’m in. No, I had to kinda show and prove that [pause] I was a [pause] safe Black. [pause] And, uh, then I had to worry about, you know, oh I’m turnin’ my back on my culture and my people. Like I’m not doing that. I’m pro-Jimmy. [laughs] I’m not anti-anyone. [pause] And that was– that was s– straining, because I was worried that the voice of my neighbors was louder than the voice of God, so, what a person thought of me really mattered. And really shouldn’t because it’s something that [exhales] they’re struggling with. It has nothin’ to do with me. It’s their identity crisis. Or w– their trauma drama or pain that’s inflicted on me. So, yeah, so that experience molded me. So it– it– uh– even now, I do a lot of volunteer work with, uh, Rutgers Cancer Institute and, um, and they had me spearheading meetings and on committees. [pause] And it’s so easy for me to enjoy being me around any culture. And that has a lot to do with what I experienced and then what happened and what didn’t happen for my community and myself and my family. So, that’s the story of that. [long pause, siren in background]
Um, I’m– I’m really curious if there was one or several formative moments where you experienced racism, because the way you talk about it is personal, and I’m wondering what [pause] what you experienced that made it that– m– gave you the ability to articulate that way?
I experienced racism in many forms. I’ve even identified it. I says there’s two types of racist. There’s the mustached racist and then there’s the non-mustached racist. The mustached racist will be like, “Get out of my land!” The non-mustached racist will be more like, “Well, maybe we shouldn’t hire Kevin.” [pause] And I experienced both. Uh, there were a lot of incidences. The odd thing is I [pause] put a lot of that away. Some of it’s buried. Some of it I’ve forced myself to forget about. Uh, there’s times where [pause] I couldn’t completely identify it as racist. Uh, maybe rude. With racist undertones. I remember havin’ a conversation with my grandfather. Or was it my uncle? And [pause] they were talking about a culture. And I says, “That sounds racist.” And I’ll never forget. He says, “I’m not racist. I’m racial.” [laughs] And I never asked what that meant. [pause] And I t– t– to this day, I think identified as, I’m a reflection or a response [pause] to w– [pause] what racism [pause], uh, hit me with. I am the result of, so, I’m racial because I’m in it and of it. I didn’t created it. I didn’t, uh, want it. But because it happened, this is what I am, and this is how I have to respond to it. So, yeah, uh, there’s been [pause], I mean [pause], even my son’s school, I was there to pick him up. This was a week and a half ago, and there was an Indian kid that used the word. He didn’t use it at a person. He just, as a matter of fact, said it. I heard it, but I says, “No, I couldn’t possibly.” It couldn’t– no! Not this day and age. So funny because I would– I’ve been saying that since the seventies. No, not this day and age! Well someone actually sa– [laughs] in every decade. It’s like wow, really? So, there was a Black security officer. She heard it to so we both turned and looked. Immediately, before we can complete the revolution of our turn, it was at least five or six other Indian kids, kindy– kids from India that said, “You can’t say that! That’s not right. That’s wrong.” They’re sixth graders. [pause] And that gave me a sense of pride and a sense of hope, because it’s like, wow, they knew. Well you can’t say it, I mean you could say it, but you can’t say it [laughs] publicly, and around Black people! Dude, what’re you doin’? In privacy or at home, you know, let the– let the N-word fly. You know? [mumbles] You know, shuffle it and spread it out like [pause] cards. Uh, but, uh, yeah so I, in me, ‘cause she and the– the security guard says, “Wait a minute, I know you didn’t say what I think you said.” And he had this, like, dumbfounded look. I think he was told that word, and– and didn’t have the context, ‘cause he had no idea. ‘Cause he just looked, like, lost. [long pause] He looked lost, so I had a conversation with him. I says, you know, “You cannot say that word. It’s just not a nice word. Especially in front of people that look like me and look like this, you know, security officer.” And he says, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry!” And I wanted to ask more, but I didn’t want to [inhales] traumatize him or beat him up over it, but yet I was traumatized, so I’m like, why did I– but– and then he’s a kid. You know. It’s like, he’s a kid. And I’m– and I’m a parent that– that– that witnessed it, and, uh, my son is in the eighth grade. He wasn’t even outside when this happened. [pause] But I did not know how to truly feel about [pause] how he heard the word, how he was introduced to the word. It– w– was it from the house or was it somewhere in his class? So I talked to the guidance counselor of the school and the principal of my son’s school, and I explained it to them. And, uh, so in talking– and I says what first needs to be done is acknowledge and celebrate the students that stood up and s– provided the corrective behavior and [inhales], and then maybe a conversation with him and maybe the class. So I don’t know how far they got into it, but they did, you know, talk to the– the– the– the– the– the– lad that, uh, actually used the N-word. And he was crying, and he says he just didn’t know. And [long pause], and I go back. At this a– at this day and age, you had to know what that meant. You had to have heard it. You’ve had to have said it or it’s been said around you. Uh, social media content. O– or maybe not. Maybe not. So, yeah, and that was the most recent. Now there are things that happened. I’ll give you an example. Today there’s a lecture that I’m supposed to be, uh, watching on Zoom about, uh, the– uh, the book, uh, The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. You know, this Black woman that– that HeLa cancer cells, which they used her first and last name, they’re used to this day to get moneys and grants for research that does not go to the Black community, and damn sure don’t go to Henrietta Lacks’ [pause] family. As a matter of fact, she should have so– the family should have so much money that they give endowments for cancer research because, if it wasn’t for her cells, we wouldn’t be able to do any of the things that [inhales]. So [pause], the lecture’s today. I got the, uh, information about it [laughs] sometime this morning [pause], which I find interesting because there had to be, ah, I got it, uh [pause], but, uh, that’s [unintelligible], yeah, they– they had to have known about this [pause] for at least a while now. [long pause] Yeah, I still didn’t get an update on the email of what the, uh, the, uh, the link so I could join, ‘cause I wanted to rush this and go home and from 12-2, nothing, and this is important to the Black community. It’s important to everyone in general. So, like, things like that. It’s like, is that racist or that’s just, you know, being silly, or just dropping the ball or– or, eh, you know, is it the spirit of [long pause], um [mumbles]. Just with a lot of walks in life, I find that there’s incidents where [exhales], it’s only racist if I am. If I’m not racist, I wouldn’t see racism. It’s just [pause] someone, you know, bein’ dumb or stupid or obnoxious. Or an a-hole. Or misinformed. But because I see it as racism or racist [pause], I have to know it to identify it so to know it I have to be of it. Somewhat. However, being marginalized, it’s not like I could walk in a room and say, “That’s racism right there!” Or, “This system is racist, and my community– I have more potholes than the town that’s, like, maybe seven blocks over. Why?”
[00:39:24]
Why is it that I don’t have my mayor’s telephone number? But my neighbor in Highland Park does. My neighbor in Woodbridge does. Call ‘em up. Direct line to ‘em. You need something done? Call the mayor’s office. Why everytime I call, I’m put on hold, take a message, and I never get a call back. I helped build a 65-million dollar middle school, and I helped out with the cancer center. This multi-million dollar building that’s right downtown New Brunswick. [pause] My name should be Jimmy February Staton because, hey, I made Black history! But it’s not gonna work out that way. It’s not gonna be in the children’s books. Um, the only people that know are the people that know. My personal sacrifice. My stride. My idea. My thought. My drive to make this happen. You know. It’s gonna be buried with me. And then the history is not gonna be kind as to my contribution. It’s not. Never has been. I don't think it ever will be. Uh, the mayor should’ve, you know, called to say, “Hey,” you know, “we’re gonna present you a proclamation.” Went to the ribbon cutting ceremony. It’s white person after white person. Congratulating and patting each other on the back, and I’m like I don’t even know who you are. You wasn’t even there when we was in the planning stages, and– and, you know, and dealin’ with protestors, you know, and– I’m like damn. And I’m sitting right there. Am I gonna get acknowledged? They’ll look at me and then look over. I’m like, I’m the only raisin in the rice pudding. I know you see me! [laughs] I’m not invisible. I mean, uh [laughs]. It’s obvious. You know, I must be somebody. It’s like, why is this Black guy sittin’ in the sea of all these white people. But, uh, it– it– it amazes me to the point that it’s almost normalized and it’s not, like, you know, like I said, it could be a– rude. Obnoxious. How is that racism like ev– if I have to identify how [pause] I’m being mistreated in order for it to be valid [pause], the system isn’t broken. It was built that way. [pause] And my words always fall on deaf ears. [pause] The great thing is, w– Dr. Kenny, you know, she hears me. And they love my contribution and my ideas. I see a lot of it implemented. As a matter of fact, the mission statement for the Rutgers Cancer Institute verbatim– they didn’t even change any of the wording. I’m like, damn! Nothing at the bottom will say, “Jimmy Staton.” [pause] And that meeting was recorded. [pause] There’s documents [pause] in the hall of records in New Brunswick where I actually put my freedom on the line if anything– and I didn’t realize what I was signing, and the next page says if the things that I said or done was not true I could be persecuted to the full extent of the law. I’m like my Black ass– my– my black self [laughs] would not have agreed to being a martyr. Why should I? Because I’m not going to benefit from any of this. Maybe, maybe if I happen to get cancer. Maybe they might show me some favor and treat me. But my insurance is gonna have to pay for it [laughs], and if my insurance doesn’t pay for it, they’re booting me out of there. And they’re not like, “Oh no, he’s grandfathered in. He’s gonna be taken care of for life.” Matter of fact, if we can’t cure him of cancer, we [laughs] failed America. We failed God, because he was a part of making this cancer institute, and, uh [mumbles]. And it saddens me, and [long pause] even when it comes to terminology [pause], they call the poor areas, because allegedly cancer is prominent in Black communities. Poor Black communities. So, why is that? So now that there’s a lot of money in research for that– grants, they’re going for it. So they– so, the genius is, I don’t know if it’s an answer to the cancer institute or someone even larger, decided to call these areas catchment areas.
[Editor’s Note: A catchment area, as defined by the National Cancer Institute, is a "self-defined geographic area that each NCI-designated Cancer Center serves or intends to serve in the research it conducts, the communities it engages, and the outreach it performs." The second half of the Mission Statement of The Rutgers Cancer Institute, after a commitment to do cancer research and care, is to, “Educate physicians, nurses, researchers, staff, and members of the community with evidence-based and culturally informed cancer education; and achieve cancer health equity in our state through outreach and engagement with our extraordinarily diverse communities.”]
And that’s just– it just sounds slavey [laughs]. I said that at a meeting. They– does it sound like slavery? Now the Black people that’s employed at Rutgers, they’re like don’t say it, don’t– don’t– don’t even look directly into the camera. And everyone else was red like, oh my god. This is okay. I looked up the term catchment area. The British definition– no, l– let’s start with the American, you know, Encyclopedia Britannica [laughs]. Booked in by two dictionaries. But I’d used the internet and looked it up and– a catchment area. It’s an area where water is collected into a basin and it pours out into a reservoir. [long pause] That doesn’t sound like my area where I live. The British– any area that is in close proximity to a hospital or institution that the– that said community benefits directly from. [pause]
[00:46:02]
That doesn’t qualify. M– I don’t– we don’t benefit from any of these establishments. Wa– we– we can, you know, but if that’s the case, isn’t every area in the world a– a catchment area? ‘Cause there’s a hospital [laughs] everywhere in the world, right? So why, you haven’t identified why the Black area’s called the catchment area. I even spoke to the director of the NCI. We send emails back and forth. And they says, “By no means is it racist.” And I said, “Well explain why.” And they– the best thing to tell me, and it wasn’t even their words. This is what [pause] funding like to see when it comes to giving money. So I’m like, this shit is bigger than what I thought. I thought it was just, you know [pause], Rutgers’– ‘scuse me for profanity– Rutgers was racist. Then I says, because [pause] they had a lot of slaves. A lot of slaves. Every major university [pause], the bigger the university, the more slaves they had. The HBCUs. Struggling, you know why? No slaves. [laughs] And rightfully so, I mean, you can’t be HBCU, you know, build your institution on slaves. But America is built on slavery, you know? And it’s like, dang. We should be getting some serious, I mean trillions, if you happen to be born Black, you should have Kennedy money. It should be just, you know, you should have Rockefeller money because of the atrocities of the past. In every culture that’s been oppressed, they’ve been financially compensated in some kinda way. If not individually, culturally so. Except for us. So, yeah, so talked to NCI and they says well, you know, when it comes to funding, there’re certain words [pause] that they– but he didn’t say who– that they like to see something in state, benefactors, endowments, whatever. Whatever– wherever the– the funding source is. There’s words that they like to see. That green light. It’s for funding. I mean, you’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars. So, to participate in this thing, you have to [pause, exhale]. Surveillance and suppression. And it’s like, damn. So yeah. I feel it and I hear it and I see it and I sense it. Even– even up until a couple of weeks ago. And again, and was that racism was that ignorance? Or a little bit of both? But the fact that it’s there. It was placed there. [pause] The genesis is racism. Now. The result, it isn’t to benefit me or anyone that looks like me. Whether there was a word that was said or a system that’s in place. Either dichotomy. I see how it’s structurally instituted. And [pause] it’s interesting. And I think that’s all I have to say about that.
Um, what– what brought you to New Brunswick?
Ah, when I was in Newark, Newark had enough troubles and, uh, bad things to do. But I discovered a spot in New Brunswick that was really nice and bad. Um [laughs], it was this place called the Old Country Inn. Strip bar. Gogo bar. Whatever you wanna call it. And, lot of debauchery [laughs]. Almost anything could happen in there, and everything goes on in there. And this was before New Brunswick was really developed. That area was just dirt roads and, I mean, you didn’t really have directions, like, okay, just keep goin’. You’ll see a tree. Make a left at the tree. Then you’re gonna see a big rock. Take a right there. Keep goin’. You’ll run into it. It was like that kind of directions [laughs]. And now all that area is built up. [pause] It’s a lot of Black areas, and the funny– I wouldn’t say funny, but the interesting thing, though, is they built bridges in those areas where Black people live. [pause] And they do this historically, I mean this happens in every community where there’s a lot of Black people, they’ll build a bridge. Right smack dab in the center of the Black community. And I know that– that people that get market value for their homes or getting uprooted. [pause] So, yeah, so I would go out there and have fun. Then I enjoyed hangin’ out in New Brunswick. And, uh, but in my wild days, I noticed that New Brunswick had potential. I said, and St. Peters, and [mumbles] Johnson and Johnson, Rutgers. Like damn. These are big big industries. And if they’re based here, they have plans. So I started coming to the town hall meetings. And I would hear about these long-term plans and how they would vote on what they wanna see and the contracts. And I’m like, okay. They’re moving on something. I need to [pause] get in on this. Get a piece of property before it’s going to be unattainable to live. So I did. I bought a nice little townhouse in New Brunswick, uh, the year I got married. And, uh, been here every since. Seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years now. Seventeen years. I always get that wrong. But it’s around that time, and, um, since 2006. I’ll put it that way. And I’ve really– I really love New Brunswick. It’s changed a lot from once I– once I f– first came, because [pause] a lot of Black people are leaving. I don’t know if it’s forced out, priced out, or just [mumbles] found other and better places to live, but it’s changing, and there’s pockets of Black people that still– are still here. Homeowners, and, um, renters and the like that– that– that want to stay in New Brunswick. So, but I just know that I wanna stay in New Brunswick for as long as my wife will– will let us stay in New Brunswick, ‘cause she has her sights set somewhere else. But, it’s crazy because the market is so insane for garbage houses. It’s like, so, we’re going to sell our place to live somewhere that’s un– overpriced. [laughs] Un, uh, attainable to maintain, and possibly not welcoming. Why would we do that to ourselves? You know. So. [long pause]
Uh, now that you’re here, you’re, um– you seem to be very engaged in the community. Um, what are those places and– and why?
I do a lot of school engagement. I– there are zero Black male teachers in inner city schools. New Brunswick I can speak for. There’s a lot of inner city schools that do not have Black male teachers. They won’t– they will go out their way to not hire a– a Black male substitute teacher, and it baffles my mind. So, speaking on deaf ears, I can always t– raise the point, and, uh, I says well how ‘bout if I be that Black male role model, because a lot of who I am is based on the presence, the involvement, and the role model of Black men in the schools, whether it be the principal or the janitor or Black men in the community, which were s– taken out by the Reagan administration and the war on drugs, and– and a lot of Black men, uh, be– added to their own demises. Well, crack epidemic, which we didn’t grow or create. That was infused into our system. You know. [pause] It was an, you know, it was a– a s– a– epidemic or sca– scourge in the community when Black people were s– suffering from the illness of addiction. But when the opioids came out, oh, they– we need to help. And we need to do all these programs and moneys and you’re able to sue the pharmaceutical companies, and the only reason why Black people didn’t get addicted to opioids is because there was experiments done by a, um, white doctor, I forgot his name offhand, that says that Black people are impervious to pain. [pause] No theory. No proof. They experimented by not giving opioids to Black people when they’d come out of surgery or have something major happen to ‘em. Like, oh, just take four Tylenol. Really? You just opened me up, and you can’t give me a Percocet? You can’t, oh, because they’re gonna– Black people likes to steal the drugs and they sell ‘em and– or they become addicted. And I’m like holy shit. Even when I had to go to a doctor, I was in severe pain, and, uh, the most he would prescribe is a Tylenol 4. Or a Tylenol– yeah a Tylenol 4. Which is just the equivalency of just more Tylenol. You know, it’s just condensed in one pill. But it doesn’t do anything to stop the pain. You just had to just ride it through. And it’s like, ah, we proved our theory. Yes, Black people are impervious to pain. They don’t feel pain. And it’s like, that’s an experiment that no one talks about. The paper’s there. I witness it. Every Black person that went to the doctor, they could not get a prescription for an opioid. And it wasn’t to do us a favor. It wasn’t like, “We love you so much that we’re gonna protect you from these drugs [laughs].” That wasn’t that! You know, it was just a social experiment just to see, and– and– and there’s many. You know, like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, and the Henrietta Lacks. I mean, it’s a so many that we don’t even realize because we can’t prove it. You know. [smacks lips] So. I know this ties into the racism thing, but, um. [pause] Yeah. [long pause, mumbles]
[00:58:45]
So I was asking what, uh, what’s the community work that you’re– that you’re
Oh!
[laughs]
That, yeah, I was tryin’ to figure out the question myself.
Yeah, no problem.
So I do a lot of volunteer work in the school. My apologies.
No, no.
I do a lot of volunteer work in the school. Uh, mentor. I’m always the PTO president of every school my son has been involved in or enrolled in since he was in– in daycare. And, uh, community work. I– I– I do a lot of community work, and I try to get services for families and join with other, uh, organizations to do things to help the community. And, I s– pseudo-work with the cancer center to try to work on the disparities in– in healthcare and [pause] just the slights that’s been happening to the Black community and the underserved community to see how we can work on changing things. I know that there’s money in it for them. I just need to see how we can get money in people’s hands to do something for the community, because having a lecture to talk about how bad we were to you– That’s not helping. [pause] It’s actually hurting. That we’re so forgiving. As a Black community we just allow stuff to happen. And [pause], instead of making things happen for us. But not against anyone, but just make things happen for ourselves. We could do it individually, for our family, but we can’t do it for the collective. So it’s hard. So yeah, I do a lot of, a lot of volunteer res– a lot of volunteer, uh, [pause] endeavors.
You had mentioned a couple of legacy projects through the middle school and the cancer center. Built up the cancer center. What– can you expand on that a bit?
Okay. Uh, with the cancer center, that began with the school Lincoln Annex. It’s sitting on land that’s right across the street from the hospital. So Rutgers felt, like, well if we put– if we use this land to build a cancer center it makes sense. Everything is right there. Cancer center. Hospital. Bridge back and forth. However, there’s an existing school there. That school, uh, decrepit. Lot of it needed a lot of love, and they would patch it here, patch it there, spending, uh, absurd amounts of millions to put a b– for a band aid. So I, “Well why don’t you build us a new school? You could have the land, but build us a new school in proximity to where the original spot was.” And then it c– became, “Well, we could do it, however, we need to build our cancer center first.” Then we can build your school. And I says, ah ah ah ah. [laughs] This is not our first rodeo. You’ve– its always happens to Blacks. We’ll take care of us and then we’ll go– we’ll come back and piggy back and take care of you. It never happens. So eventually they simultaneously, and both buildings are being simultaneously built now. Our school should be open, I think, I wanna say s– [breathes] September of 2023-24 s– uh, school year, or the spring. But I think it’s on track for the summer. Now, and, the cancer center is a part of the designed feature. [exhales] Uh, the message [pause], uh, mission statement, uh, services, programs. [pause] And that’s exciting. And that’s wonderful. Yet I’m not gonna get the proper credit for it. I was there when it was just an idea. It was just a conversation. And it was my conversation, and I remember it distinctively, because I have a couple of people that was there. That knew. And they says, “Oh, that sounds interesting.” And I says, “Well, we should have a partnership.” Staff from the hospital of phlebotomist doctors, uh, health educators, uh, administrators, come to the middle school to talk about their career and the path it takes to get there because in the Black community and Hispanic community, by the time you get to high school, if you have no idea what you’re gonna do, you’re just gonna meander and just wander. You know, you might luck up and find something, but most of the time, you [mumbles], you’re not gonna be put in the path, and by the time you do discover it, it’s so hard because it happened to me. You’re playing catch up. So. And that idea, you know, fell by the wayside. Then all of the sudden it got rebranded as an original idea. And I’m like, you gotta be karate kidding me. I’ve said this last year. And now it’s like, oh, you know we came up with this wonderful idea. And then listen, I’m looking at the salaries and everybody that’s involved, and I’m like, wow, I don’t get a dollar outta that. I don’t get credit. So, you know. And I get that ideas are in the air. Someone just snatches and do something with it. But it’s pretty peculiar that my– my idea was over and over [laughs]. And it’s closely attached to the people that I had these meetings with. And then if I make too much noise about it, I know what’s gonna happen. They gonna just carve me out. So now I can’t help my community or myself to gain knowledge to– on Black cancer or to help disparities. ‘Cause I’ll be on the outside looking in. Even though I’m still on the outside looking in, but I’m in the building. I’m not at the table, but I can see the table. You know.
[01:05:48]
Sorry, did you get involved as a member of the PTO or what– what relationship, what– what brought you into the project?
What brought me into the– the– the cancer institute project?
Yeah.
I was a PTO member for the Lincoln Annex, and, uh, I spoke at a town hall meeting. For the board of– with the Board of Education. And, uh, yeah, a reporter was trying to, uh, discredit me. ‘Cause I’m Black. I can’t possibly know what I’m doing or what I want because, you know, I have a Black child that’s going to a minority school. And this white reporter clearly knows what’s best for me and my child more than I do. [laughs] So I pretty much just let them have it. And I made a speech. Martin Luther King. President Barack Obama worthy. Mountaintop-kinda speech expressing the needs of the community and what I’d like to see. I know I’m not gonna benefit from it because my child will age out by the time, if it comes to fruition, which it did. It was for the community. It was for the– the– the– the– the voiceless. That they have– the powerless that don’t know why and what’s happening to ‘em, but they feel something and it’s not right, and it’s like I’m not supposed to be here under these conditions. I didn’t do anything to deserve poverty. Why did I catch poverty? I wash my hands. You know? [laughs] I cross at the green, not in between. Why did I catch poverty? You know, why’d my family catch poverty? Why do I have to stay in it? And then why’d I have to be bo– why am I blamed for [pause] being in poverty? Like I– I’m lazy. I– I should’ve done better. You know. Why were you– why were you born Black? Why were you born Hispanic? That’s your fault. Like, really? Like I had a choice? [pause] So. I’m PTO president. Did that speech. A reporter happened to, uh, be there, and wrote an article about me in Star Ledger or in NJ [pause] News, NJ Today or whatever it is. But Star Ledger. Wrote a article and then, can– someone from the cancer center reached out. I think it was Dr. Libutti, he says that’s someone I wanna meet because he’s in the community. He’s in tune. He’s, you know, he– he can help us in the direction of where we need to go as a– a NCI Cancer Institute. And [pause] we had conversations and I told him my thoughts. My concerns. My fears. What I did not want to see. Uh [pause], and my– honesty. Respectful honesty. [church bell rings] And we’ve been working here and there together and, you know, I know that they’re getting the better of me. Because I don’t benefit. Not in the ways that they benefit. You know. So that’s how that whole thing came about. And, uh, so as long as they’ll have me, I will give them great advice, and great insight, and talk to my community to see how we can ga– gain more from, uh, this whole situation so that [pause], to form trust, to form, uh, uh– uh, an understanding so it’s mutually beneficial. It can be done where when you’re writing grants, find out what the community needs. And it might be something as simple as, uh, we need the front of a school fixed. The stairs are broken. The sign is hanging. Uh, we need, uh, a light up sign instead of those, uh, letter push i– push pin boards. We need a light up sign like in the suburbs, you know, they have these light up signs that tells things about the community. [pause] Rutgers or any entity can say look, it’s gonna cost, what, $60,000, maybe $2,000 to maintain. We’ll take care of that. Might be more personal. Hey, there’s 400 families that really need a boost. What can we do for them with– with food vouchers and money? To just. To give ‘em a ease. We can’t change the situation, but give me a minute of ease. You’re usin’ our data. [laughs] You’re not payin’ us for the data that you’re using on Black people in the community. You’re not. It’s fact. It’s wrong. And yet, you know, you’re okay with just, you know, it’s like slavery all over again, you know? It’s like you’re okay with that? You know? White people won’t say, yeah, just come and just take all of my data. In this community and it’s okay. And you get millions, and you’re building buildings and– and yet, nobody’s gonna go for that. No other culture, but it happens to us. Historically, and it’ll cont– it seems like it’s gonna continue to happen to us.
How did you connect with the protestors of that project?
They, uh, [pause] confronted me. Because they looked at me as a sell out. Oh, I must be getting some side backdoor deal or some money. And that was all manipulated by a reporter. A white reporter that needed to get something out of it. You know, build this brand. And he eventually ran for mayor. Lost. But probably will wind up being the mayor because, you know, he’s white. It’s gonna just work out for him. [laughs] It’s just gonna work out! And, uh, it was business, and I get it, and I was a part of the nasty end of the business. Uh, yeah, so yeah the protestors and everyone who says, oh, you know, you should fight back and say this. I’m like, but I have no one that’s gonna back my play. I still– I live here. I shop here. My family goes to school here. You know, so I’m not going to be a martyr for a cause that nobody’s gonna support me in. I’m not gonna just do this by myself, but I will speak truth to power and I will fight for this school because, yeah. But I don’t benefit from any of this, but the narrative was that I did, and, oh, I came from no– you know, I– I’m not even from here. Like, yeah, I’m seventeen years in. I’m a transplant, but I’ve been here seventeen years. My son goes to school here. He’s been goin’ to school here from the fifth grade. It woulda been sooner if I coulda had a decent public school to put him in in New Brunswick. That’s a New Brunswick problem. That’s not a me problem. Luckily, I discovered that they had ch– a gifted and talented program. Got my son into it. And that was a separate school within a school. That’s how I became a PTO president for the entire school. Because I have ideas, and actually I just asked a question like I always do. I asked a question and someone said, that’s a damn good question. You should be the president. I’m like, that’s not how it works, but [laughs] okay. And then I make things happen. And I change everything for the better. [pause] So that’s how that came about.
Um, before we finish today, is there anything that you wanna share, that you wanna say, that I might not have asked about or–
Hmm. [pause] I hope that this information, uh, would help not only the cause for Black and, uh, underserved people, but as a healing tool [pause], no more like an elixir that you can take that can change a mindset and change a feeling. Because [sighs] anytime that you’re suppressed, I have to always remind people, “Be careful not to adapt the attributes of your oppressor.” Because as soon as someone like me makes some money, we’re going to result to what has happened to us, and we’re gonna do it to someone else that we can suppress, or that we can surveil, or that we can feel better about ourself, because we’re up here and they’re down there. [sighs] So that is something that I hope that this whole endeavor forms as an elixir that we all can take on schedule and collectively so we can all heal from the– the– the woes and the ails of the world. Whether we was the– the– the, uh, the– the benefactor or we were the perpetrated. [pause] From this whole [pause, laughs] mess of, uh, [laughs] of a society. You know, the good and the bad is all un– all– all– all needed, however we need a cleansing. We need an elixir that’ll give us a cleansing and it’ll change our mindset to feel and think differently and move forward in a the direction of love for all mankind, and if it does that, then, you know, my rants and rambling was all worth it. Thank you for the opportunity.
Thank you. Um, I– I did have one more question if I– if I can
[coughs]
Ask you one more please.
Uh, uh, bring it.
Um, wh– following your time, um, in the PTO, in the New Brunswick public schools, can you give, um, an overview of what you think i– are the challenges in the district and what the opportunities might be?
[laughs] The challenges of the district is everyone is on a short invisible leash. Uh, the teachers are in [mumbles]– are indebted to the administrators. The administrators are indebted to the principal or CEO or whoever is in charge. That person is– is indebted to the superintendent and the Board of Education. I believe the superintendent is indebted to the mayor, even though they say that they act as two independent functions, however, I’m sure that there is a [pause] a protocol that has to be followed. There’s something that, uh, like to be seen. I’ll give an example. Uh, the– most teachers and most people that work for the Board of Education, their children don’t go to the schools that are in the inner city that the board is responsible for. So they are not made to be aware so they don’t know how to begin to care. Now if my child– if I work for the Board of Education and my child goes to a school that’s in the district, oh you best to believe that if I come to school and I see that there’s a lack, I’m going to my boss and says hey [laughs], we don’t have proper books. We don’t have laptops. We don’t have A, B, C, and D. My child, your child, and everyone’s child that works for the Board of Education goes to this school in this district. I look at suburbs. A lot of the parents and the staff for the city of that said township and the Board of Education, their children go to that public school. There’s gonna be a few that goes to private. Few go to Catholic. But on the most part. And even if they’re older, they don’t have young children in school. Their children did go to that school or they went to that school. Or someone in their family went to that school. It’s not like that in the inner city. No one that works for the Board of Education wants their children to go to a New Brunswick school. No one. No one. And I mean no one. Anyone in the mayor’s office. Anyone who works for any of these municipalities. In New Brunswick. Not only do they do not wanna live in New Brunswick. They don’t want their children to go to school here! And I get that you want the best for your child. I get it, but until we can change the mindset of having the best be in the inner city, we’re gonna keep havin’ this dance where we’re not going to fix a problem and there’s more funding that comes to schools that are challenged if you will. Now if you’re a blue ribbon district school in the inner city, yeah you get some money. But you get more if you’re on the border of struggling and failing. There’s a lot more money or a lot more love. Because [pause] I think it makes people feel good to say oh, those poor people that are poor. Aw. It’s easier to get money. And nothing happens and changes the school. Nothing. Nothing. The only way the school has changed is because I helped and got involved. And, uh, made some noise. They had to answer the call. But– and I don’t even benefit because my son was only there for a year. He aged out! And I think if we can change that mindset where just like with, uh, some towns in order to be a police officer or a fire officer in that town, you gotta live there! [laughs] If we did that with the Board of Education, we would have a different outcome. [pause] But they’re not gonna do that. Because there’s no benefit in helping poor, minority, Black, Hispanic kids. Now, if what I see is that the face of the political scene in New Brunswick become more Hispanic, and I mean on a higher level, you’re gonna see different love for Hispanic schools. Or schools that are heavily, uh, populated with Hispanic and– and it’s only right ‘cause that’s how it should be. But until then, you’re going to get what [pause] looks good. But not good enough for my child mentality. Me havin’ a Black child, yeah, that’s the– it looks good because it’s the best I’ve ever seen, but go outside your community and look at their schools. I had a fight with– not a fight, but I was part of the planning committee for what the school looks like. I said, it should be a lot of green, a lot of trees, a lot of lawn. Because every school I went to in the suburbs has a lot of green. You know what was the argument? Mud. I says, “Mud?” “Yeah, and the mud is gonna get into the building and the building’s too nice to have mud in it.” I says, “You know that there’s [laughs] carpet runners that gets taken once a week, you know, to be cleaned and replaced. And, uh, substituted out. So that takes care of the mud. And then we have housekeeping or environmental services if you will, to take care of what, you know, until.” That should not be– you know how therapeutic it is to see grass, trees [pause], environment. If you only see bricks and cement most of your life. Bricks and cement is what’s in the prison. You know, so you worry about the school-to-prison pipeline. But if you’re building schools that look like a prison? Look around here. Every school in New Brunswick. And then look at a prison. If you take the name off of each, they look the same. They really do! But the school that I helped put together. Oh, go to Handy Street. It’s beautiful. Does not look like that cookie-cutter brick and stone prison-looking box. And all that’s done by design.
So they vetoed the, uh, the green. “Oh, but we gotta take care of it.” Yeah well why not? Yeah it’s– it’s environment. It’s beautiful It’s land. It will inspire children to want to have their own property. What’s wrong with that? At least train. You’re in school. You’re thinking wow, you know, grass. I took a bunch of students many years ago [pause], and I was into this mentor– I was doing this mentor prog– mentorship program teaching young men how to be a gentleman. You know, we learned table etiquette and ballroom dancing. You know, things that, you know, you’re– you’re not gonna use at a prom or whatever, but it was like opera, theater. To take ‘em outta their comfort zone. So I would always talk about the grass on the lawn of Princeton. And how lush and beautiful it was. And a lot of the time they’d go, “I don’t wanna hear that. I’m not goin’ to no Princeton.” After about a year, I stopped talking about the grass on the lawn. The lush campus at Princeton. “Whatever happened to that school you was talkin’ about? The prince town school?” Oh, Princeton University! It’s still there. “Well tell me about the grass! You used to always talk about the grass.” I’d go, “Oh, the grass.” [laughs] So– so now I got them interested. And I says, “I’m gonna take you guys.” And they’re like, “ I want to go.” And we went to Rutgers. And I’m like okay. We went to, uh, we went to, uh, Middlesex County. We went to Essex County. We went to Rutgers Newark. Kean. Uh, we went to, uh, NJIT. Then [pause], the coup de gras, I took them to Rut– to Princeton. And you shoulda saw their eyes light up because I was giving them the, uh, the story, and laying the foundation and tellin’ them how beautiful it is and how lush, and for the– for the– as far as the eye can see, you see nothin’ but grass and trees and beauty, and watch all the people outside studying and being as one with nature. You know, it’s like, oh, that’s for an animal. That’s for, you know, real people don’t do that. See that on TV. Or that’s some white man woods stuff. And we’re like no man, this is for us. Adam and Eve. But anyway. So lo and behold, about four of the nine students were enrolled at Princeton. Three graduated, one transferred, and the other ones went to different schools whether it was trade or, uh, s– smaller colleges. And I saw how that made a difference. It just blew their mind. And the first thing they did when they went to the campus. They got on their knees and they touched it and they laid. They put their face on it. And tears came to my eyes. I welled up because I went from these hardy kids that didn’t want no part of [laughs] any of that, to embracing it and craving it and can’t see anything for their life outside of this lush grass. Now wherever they went, I don’t know because I always wanted to know, but I know I’m going to run into them or they’re going to mention me or the program. If they forget me it’s fine. But the impact that it has. And I shared that story with one of the people that makes the decision, and, uh, I don’t know if it was to my detriment that I mentioned the story, ‘cause they saw and they knew that little Black kids saw better for themselves and create– and reached out and created opportunity. And they says, oh, tho– those are scholarships that was taken from white kids. You know, I don’t know how this was viewed, but I’m sure it was something to that effect. [pause] Because for it to get shot down when this is not any of your money. This is 65 million dollars that’s from Rutgers that was earmarked for it. How dare you? But then I says, no don’t rock the boat, because if this whole thing is shut down. [laughs] I’m arguing over some grass [laughs] and a tree when we’re talking about a building that cannot educate in the 21st century. Hundreds of kids. And I’m [pause], you know, I sacrificed it over some grass. So I had to pick and choose my battle, which I shouldn’t have to. I shouldn’t have to say, you know, give me the– the– the most convenient. I should be able to get any and everything I want. ‘Cause I’m a human being and I want what you want. You want what I want, but how come you get it and I– I’m told that I shouldn’t– I shouldn’t want. I’m too ambitious. It’s unrealistic for me as a Black man to think that I could do. How dare I. So. Yeah. I just hope that. Yeah, and you know, and we’re in 2023 and we– we’re still having these conversations. Something is very wrong. This should be conversations of, oh way back then during, you know, the Holocaust or way back then during slavery. This is what happened, but this is where we are now. Yeah, we’ve made some strides, but. [long pause] We could do so much better. We deserve so much more. [long pause] So I don’t know how that helps with [laughs] the [unintelligible] but.
Thank you Mr. Staton. I really appreciate it.
You’re welcome. Honored.
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