Curtis McNair

Curtis McNair is the head chef and manager at Elijah’s Promise Kitchen. He is responsible for cooking the meals and making sure that all of their guests eat.

“So our kitchen helps them, you know, it helps, it helps them survive. Even the people that when they are working, they would have to come to the soup kitchen because, you know, if you’re not makin’ a certain amount of money and you still have bills to pay, it’s still hard to pay those bills. So the kitchen helps them go about that, that are less fortunate to have a meal so that they are able to feed themselves. And people don’t understand, they think it’s just for people that are homeless. Yes, we have homeless people that come eat, but we also have people that work and come eat because they—it’s hard to make ends meet if you’re not makin’—if you’re payin’ rent and cable, phone bill’n all this other stuff. Before you know it, after you pay your bills, you’re short on grocery shoppin’ money. So um. You know, it helps. It helps.”
— Curtis McNair

Annotations

1. Elijah's Promise, Soup Kitchen - Thousands of soup kitchens, food pantries, and food banks exist across america to provide meals of good quality and quantity to homeless or food-insecure individuals and families. These organizations often follow nonprofit models and are mainly funded through charitable donations or federal funding. Elijah's Promise is one such nonprofit soup kitchen serving the New Brunswick community since 1989 that mainly subsides off of donations.
2. Illicit Economy - Drug dealing and other illegal market activities combine to make up what is known as the illicit economy. In the United states, it is estimated by the Bureau of Economic Analysis that the illicit economy is a 231 billion dollar industry with the sale of illegal drugs accounting for almos half of that. The biggest risk factors and predictors of involvement in drug dealing as an adolescent are lower socio-economic standing and the relative availability of drugs in the area. These two conditions were both found to affect black children more than white children and have a reciprocal relation that create a contiuoues cycle of illegal involvenment.
3. Drug Court, Rehabilitation - Drug Courts (or Recovery Courts) grew out of a 1996 initiative to better rehabilitate the massive influx of repeat drug offenders after the passing of New Jersey's Comprehensive Drug Reform Act of 1986 as an alternative to mass incarceration. In 2001 after numerous successful pilot initiatives, New Jersey legislature L.2001, c.243 was signed by governor DiFrancesco which provided funding for the implementation of Drug Court system in all 21 counties. Those seeking to overcome drug depenecies can volunteer for or be ordered to attend Drug Court. Thr program usually is characterized by system of graduated sanctions and incentives to encourage recovery goals, continuous training and education, strict supervision, and frequent drug testing. The program has been highly successful in lowering the rate of partipants being rearrested compared to traditional incarceration (16% versus 54% re-admittance) and has recieved further expansion in recent years.
4. Job Training, Rehabilitation - Job training programs for incarecearated or formerly incarcerated indiduals are increasingly seen as a vital tool in lowering recidivism rates. By gaining skills useful in the job market, convicts who receive job training have an increased employment rate and a lowered likelihood of reoffending or being crimanally charged again. Culinary training is one of th more popular vocational training routes with around one-fifth of employed formerly incarerated individuals working in the food service. Most federally funded vocational training for convicts occurs within the prison system during imprisonment to build skills for reentry into society. On The Job Training (OJT), created by the Federal Workforce Development Act, is one of the largest federal job training programs within the prison system but it largely favors builidng skills for the construction industry rather than cuinary skills.
5. Recidivism, Reentry - The State of New Jersey has an incarceration rate of 407 per 100,000 people which is a higher percentage than most social democracies, but is lower than the national United States average of 698. African Americans have made up around 62% of offencders in correctional facilities in New Jersey for the past decade which is a large overrepresentation based on population. New Jersey has more recently favored a policy of supporting early releases for prisoners convicted of minor crimes and deemed ready for reintegration into society, but the state maintains high recidivism rates. Of prisoners released in 2011, 52.7 percent were rearrested, 39.8 percent were reconvicted, and 31.3 percent were reincarcerated. More recently, budget issues have and may continue to reduce state funding to inmate transition programs responsible for combating recidivism of prisoners.
6. Drugs, Drug Deaths - Fentanyl is a synthetic opiate 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine. While also being more addictive and possessing more intense withdrawal symptoms, probability of overdose is sharply increased with Fentanyl use due to its high potoency and it being spliced to supplement other drugs. Illicitly manufactored fentanyl is linked to a sharp increase in drug-related deaths in the United States starting around 2016 known as the 3rd wave of the opiod epidemic.
7. Prison, Rehabilitation Programs, Reentry - The federal government has increasingly turned to providing more funding to education-based nonprofit reentry programs to rehabilitate those in the prison system and reduce recidivism. Laws like the Second Chance Act, which was passed in 2008 and reauthorized in 2018, provides yearly grant pool of 100 million dollars for reentry programs. Studies on the values of educational classes in prisons have universally shown that prisoners who attend educational or self-betterment classes are less likely to return to prison.
8. Prison, Halfway House - Halfway houses or Residential Reentry Centers (RRCs) are temporary federally or privately run community housing units for prisoners to prepare for reentry into society. The Albert M. “Bo” Robinson Assessment and Treatment Center in Trenton is one such state regulated, but privately ran RRC that recieves inmates from state prisons as a cost-saving measure. Investigations of the Robinson Center found a lack of resources and supervison had created an environment of rampant gang activity, drug use, and sexual assault. One drug test of the inmates showed 73% postive rate among the population. Community Education Center, the private company that operates the Robinson halfway houses and numerous other houses in New Jersey, has been criticized for its focus on profits, lobbying of politicians, and maintainng poor working/livng conditions for staff and inmates alike.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Dan Swern

New Brunswick , NJ

May 4, 2020

Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn

Annotations by Robert Reisler

[Note on COVID-19: Due to strict social distancing guidelines, this interview was hosted as a phone call and recorded using a mobile application.]

TRANSCRIPTOR NOTE: The first six minutes of this audio clip sounds corrupted due to a microphone issue and is mostly unintelligible. What can be understood is transcribed below, but there are long periods of inaudible sections. Dan’s voice can be heard clearer than Curtis’s.

(00:00:00)

Yeah.

Great. Um… So essentially, I just wanted to ask a little bit about, uh, what your experience has been like, uh, working in, uh, a, working on Neilson Street, uh, in the context of the pandemic. Uh, so before I ask the question, might you be able to uh, introduce yourself? Just say quickly who you are, ah, your role at Elijah’s Promise and what you do there? 

Okay. My name is Chef Curtis McNair. I'm the head chef and manager at Elijah’s Promise Kitchen. I’m responsible for cooking the meals and making sure that all of our guests eat. (pause)

Uh, great. Thank you so much. Uh. Ah, so chef, (static in background), uh, can you, can you tell us a little bit about, uh, what your experience typically is like, ah, down on Neilson Street and what it’s become over the last, ah, couple of months? (static pauses)

(static begins again) Well, before the pandemic, you know, normal feedings was like 150, 180 would be a high count for a meal? Now with the pandemic it’s like 300, 350. So it’s more than double. But it’s been a matter of gettin’ the food ready, ‘cause we’ve never missed a meal. So it’s, it’s more, it’s more work because I don’t have my volunteers anymore. (static continues) And you know… It’s such a, it’s a challenge because you have to work with all these safety precautions, and you’re wearing a mask and gloves and make sure you sanitize your hands and keep the kitchen clean with bleach, you know. So you have to do the safety factor, it’s very important. (inaudible) Like I said, it’s been a challenging experience and I like challenging, but (inaudible) and vegetables. So, you know, (inaudible) it’s like, you know, chicken would be (inaudible). Now it’s like 350 to 400 pieces. And then if I count a wing and a wing as one piece, and I’m talking about 5 to 600 pieces of chicken, it’s sitting in your storage. (inaudible) (pause)

(00:02:37)

How many volunteers do you typically have help you prepare meals?

I normally have (inaudible) ...come in and help with them, help fry or whatever. And now there’s whole staff--inaudible) 

(00:03:22)

And how many volunteers would you have (inaudible)?

I would have, um, like, I would have three. And it’s like 10 or 11 (inaudible) 

And what are your numbers at now?

Now we’re down to 0 and um. (inaudible) (overlapping)

(inaudible overlapping) I’m sorry, go ahead, go ahead, Chris.

(inaudible) So now on the culinary side (inaudible).

(audio becomes slightly clearer) Do you think this experience is informing, uh… Is it revealing new ways of service for the community? Or is it pretty much, is it just usual but set up for a crazy capacity?

Well, I know that like, since this started there’s a lot of families that are comin’ to eat. And you know, like, a lot more people are comin’ now. And you have some people that can’t make it because they’re either sick or at home, and (inaudible) I give’m the opportunity (inaudible) but I can’t make it a every day thing because then I can have everyone come in and say “I need to take this home for this person, this person” and then the numbers would really be up there. So um. As far as that, they’re eating well. You know. They’re gettin’, they’re gettin’ the main course to go, and then they’re getting a snack pack (inaudible) which consists of a water, uh. Perishables. Um. Perishable fruit. A non-perishable fruit, and a candy bar. And then I have certain people who pick up from different stores and they’re finding other little snacks. So we give out snacks and whatever, whatever is donated that I can’t really use or cook with, I’ll still like put it in a little bag and give each person, each gets a little somethin’. So they’re eating really well.

[ Annotation 1 ]

(00:05:57)

(audio becomes clearer) Is there anything that you’ve specifically need--if you were to make an advocacy or donation ask, you know, what, what need do you have down at the kitchen at the moment?

Well, at the moment, certain people people (inaudible) trying to get ground beef for me and ground beef has been hard to get. So you know, like, a lot of my guests don’t like pork. So I mean, you know, I have to either make them some pasta, (audio becomes completely clear) chicken or, you know, something--turkey, ground turkey or something but ground beef would help.

Um, is there anything that you want to let folks know that might not be, um… That might not be reflective in the media or stories about the pandemic or specifically about Elijah’s Promise’s advocacy? Is there anything specific that you feel like is important information that hasn’t gotten out?

Well, a lot of important information has gotten out but people need to eat. Um. You know a lot of people are not working right now and they have a low income, so they need some means of getting food to survive. So our kitchen helps them, you know, it helps, it helps them survive. Even the people that when they are working, they would have to come to the soup kitchen because, you know, if you’re not makin’ a certain amount of money and you still have bills to pay, it’s still hard to pay those bills. So the kitchen helps them go about that, that are less fortunate to have a meal so that they are able to feed themselves. And people don’t understand, they think it’s just for people that are homeless. Yes, we have homeless people that come eat, but we also have people that work and come eat because they--it’s hard to make ends meet if you’re not makin’--if you’re payin’ rent and cable, phone bill’n all this other stuff. Before you know it, after you pay your bills, you’re short on grocery shopping' money. So um. You know, it helps. It helps. A lot of people are very grateful to have the kitchen. It’s one of the only kitchen’s that’s open every day for people to eat.

Chef, thank you so much for taking the time today. I really deeply appreciate it and deeply appreciate everything that you’re doing, ah, to serve this community.

Thank you.

Cool. Um. Hold on one sec… Alright, that’s it for the recording. Uh, one thing I did want to--

(00:08:29)

END RECORDING

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MAY 13th, 2020 INTERVIEW, FIRST RECORDING

(00:00:00)

Ah, so this is Dan Swern. It is Wednesday, May 13th, 2:08 pm. We’re at uh, 18 Neilson Street, Elijah’s Promise. And I’m here with?

Curtis McNair.

Uh, so Curtis, thank you so much for taking the time. Um. Why don’t you just, uh, take this from the beginning?

Okay. My name is Curtis McNair and I’m 56 years old. In the beginning, let me see--I was born in 1964.  (inaudible, shuffling)

(00:00:31)

END FIRST RECORDING

___________________________________________________________________________

MAY 13th INTERVIEW, SECOND RECORDING

(00:00:00)

Whenever you’re ready, you can just continue.

Okay. Born in 1964 at St. Peter’s Hospital in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Uh. Earliest memory is, let me see, uh… (tapping) Alright, I remember going to Nathan Health School kinnygarten. And I think that was about 1969 when the Mets won the World Series? And uh, after kinnygarten left uh, Nathan Health School and went to Woodrow Wilson School. At that time, they were diff--they were seperatin’ neighborhoods and bussin’ us to different schools. So I went to Woodrow Wilson School for one year, and that’s kind of like in New Brunswick off of Route One. Second grade I went to Lars Starling School. That’s in New Brunswick, New Jersey. So I went to Lars Starling School second through fourth grade. Fifth grade I went to, uh, (tapping) Roosevelt Intermediate for 5th and 6th grade. Uh, let me see--7th and 8th went to A.C. Chester Redshaw. 9th through high--9th through 12th I went to New Brunswick High School. I ain’t goin’ back to childhood. I remember I was always like a kind of like a shy kid. I was the middle c--more like the middle boy. I had uh, two younger brothers and two older brothers and then two sisters that’s older than me. And you know. I was spoiled growin’ up, got everything that I wanted. My father, he worked for Foley Caterpillar, he was a engineer. My mother worked for Bristol Meyer Squibs. She was an inspector. And we had the normal family, you know, dinner on the table, family ate together. Celebrated Christmases and holidays and I always had the big Christmas list and got whatever I wanted on Christmas. Um… During, when my mother would go to to work and my father was working, my grandmother would come over to the house and I would sit and watch “Jack Line” with her and exercise. And uh. An experience I had when I was young--one of my friends that I grew up with, he lived around the corner from me. And uh, he drowned at Johnson’s Park. And that’s like kind of Piscataway, New Brunswick. And after that experience, I was always scared of dead bodies. So growing up until I got older, I would go to funerals if someone passed away and I would never go up to the coffin. Because when my friend died--his name was Dennis--I didn’t understand death and my grandmother took me to the funeral. And after the funeral I was sick for like a week. I couldn’t go to school. And I just remember tryin’ to shake’m in the coffin. And he would n--he just didn’t wake up. So I didn’t really understand death, what death was until I got older. I, growing up I played sports. Junior Peewee Football for Sacred Heart and got a little older, I played uh, Pop One in Football for St. Peters and we won the conference championship and it was pretty good. Little League Baseball, played, won the championship. Several different teams, got to the Pawnee Leagues which is Babe Ruth. Won the championships. I would go to the All Stars and pitch in the All-Stars, one hitters, two hitters. You know, I was pretty good in baseball.

(00:03:00)

So that’s what I wanted to do. Wanted to be a baseball player. And I love playin’ baseball. But when I…. My older brother went to college, he was 4 years older than me. My cousin from the, another neighborhood came and he became like the big brother. And he was a drug dealer. So he got me involved with the drug dealin’ lifestyle. I, I didn’t think about like later on, like, the amount of money you could have made through a baseball contract. I, I thought about what he was making in the, in the here and now. So I got involved in that so. When I got to high school my freshman year i stopped playin’ sports because I had begun drug dealing, dealing drugs. And while dealin’ drugs he had me holdin’ guns and money and all different types of drugs. So I was involved in that lifestyle. Made it through high school. Had the ideal that I was gonna go to the air force but I landed a job at Sunshine Biscuits in Serville. And back then they was payin’ pretty good so. Didn’t make it to the air force. But in Sunshine Biscuits, I met a lot of people from New York City and they were big suppliers of cocaine and different drugs. So all while I was working here, we was like dealin’ drugs and. I grew up in a lifestyle like, once I got to that age, it was just about makin’ money, dealin’ drugs, and workin’ a job. Um. Time went by, you know, had different apartments and girlfriends had children, had a, a daughter, her name is Trenay. She would be about, she, I’d think she’s about 34, 35 right now. You know. Spoiled her, but dad was a drug dealer. He worked, but he was a drug dealer and she didn’t know it. Her mother knew it, so that’s what kind of like ended our relationship ‘cause she didn’t take it no more. So, you know, I used to take leave of absences and go to Virginia, Virginia Beach, and Sunshine finally got tired of me takin’ off so they terminated me. So once they terminated me, I had to go to street level drug dealin’. And street level drug dealin’ is much different from dealin’ when you know people get checks so you can give it to them ahead of time and they’ll payday pay you back. When you’re on the street, it’s much more dangerous so you have to watch your back and you can get killed out there. So in the streets, you know, I made a lot of money. Bought Mercedes Benzes and all this other good stuff that you, you know, when you have the money you buy it. But I found myself gettin’ arrested. The first time I got arrested uh, I got a three year sentence. And because it was my first time, they let me apply for this program called The Intensive Supervision Program. So I got Intensive SUpervision Program. And then I graduated in 18 months and I did good, but when I got off the Intensive Supervision Program, I went back to dealin’ drugs. So I managed, you know, do good for a while in the drug dealin’ world. And then wind up gettin’ arrested like three more times. And each time I was out on bail, so it was like more time gettin’ racked up. And I’m out on bail. So when it finally came time to go to jail, I had another 3 year sentence.

[ Annotation 2 ]

(00:06:06)

But I had three 3-year sentences current. Which means, three years, three years, three years but they ran them together, but I could have done 9 years. So out of that one I did like a year and a half. After that year and a half, I came home. I got a job at Heidi Candy Company and I was a Sample Manager, I was doin’ pretty good. I got back into the drug dealin’ again. So I had, it just, it was part of me ‘cause once I learn how to do it and you seen how fast the money came, it’s just like couldn’t get out. At this time I would work jobs here and there but that was my main income. After goin’ in and doin’ a year and a half and Heidi Candy Company I came home and I got involved in it again. So this time I think I caught like 2 to 3 more charges again. And meanwhile I had house raided up, raided by the state troopers, by the New Brunswick Task Force, by uh…. Middlesex County Superior Task Force. And you know, goin’ back and forth with the court, payin’ attorneys, tryin’ to get less time. So this time I had had three charges--a five with a three, a three with a three, and three flat. So I, I wind up havin’ to do the whole three years. And uh. When I went to prison, I was in Southern State Correction Facility in Delmont, New Jersey. And I got into a therapeutic community, a TC Program. You know, did well. Got out. And um… Had my own apartment when I got home, have money saved up. But I just couldn’t leave the drug dealin’ thing alone. So I got back involved in the drug dealin’ again. And it lasted a little while again, then I got caught a few more times. And this time, I applied for Drug Court. Drug Court, it’s a program that you, you answer to the courts for three to five years. Keep a diary of the budget and you have to go to meetings and you know. You have to meet with your counselors, take (inaudible). So you have to have a job, you have to pay fines. So I saw this girl graduate without any sanctions and I was like--(cell phone begins ringing loudly for a few seconds) 

[ Annotation 3 ]

(00:08:19)

I’m doin’ an interview, Michelle. (pause, person on phone speaks inaudibly) I’m doin’ an interview. (pause) (person on phone: “Oh, I’m sorry.”) I’ll call--(pause, person on phone speaks inaudibly) No, he didn’t come. (pause, person on phone speaks: “Is Kyle still there?”, inaudible) They--no, they’re gone. (pause, person on phone speaks inaudibly) Um… They’ll leave a sticker on the mailbox. I--no, I don’t--FEDEX, FEDEX might leave a sticker on the mailbox. But nobody’s come yet. (pause, person on phone speaks inaudibly) Alright. In a minute when uh--nobody’s knocked on the door yet though. But in a minute I’ll go out there and check the mailbox. But he’s recording me--okay. Buh bye. (pause, person on phone speaks inaudibly) Can you pause--can you pause it?

(00:09:10)

END SECOND RECORDING

____________________________________________________________________________

MAY 13th, 2020 INTERVIEW, THIRD RECORDING

(00:00:00)

Awesome.

Okay. After, it’s like I said, seein’ this young lady graduate without any sanctions I said “let me try that.” So I tried it. And it worked. While on Drug Court I enrolled in uh, the Elijah’s Promise Culinary Schools for Bakin’ and Pastries. (phone begins to ring) And I--(phone stops) graduated on top of my class. And uh… It was uh. A learning experience because uh… When I worked at Sunshine Biscuits I was always familiar with scales and plus in teh drug dealin’ world I knew how to operate scales so the job was learning and Elijah’s Promise was kinda easy. So um… (mutters, inaudible)

(inaudible)

(inaudible) Let me see about that. (click) 

(00:00:51)

END THIRD RECORDING

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MAY 13th, 2020 INTERVIEW, FOURTH RECORDING

(00:00:00)

Alright. While on Drug Court, like I said, you were supposed to have a job or going to school. So I went to Elijah’s Promise Culinary School for Baking and Pastries. And part of Drug Court is you have to attend Narcotics Anonymous Allegiance. So I went to a meetin’ and the meetin’ happened to be here at the soup kitchen. And you know, as they’re praying, and you know, goin’ over serenity prayer, I was like “man, it would be nice to work down here. It’s near my house and somehow God put it all together and now I’m the head chef and manager down here! (laughs) So. Now like, before, in, in the past I was out there sellin’ drugs and givin’ people poison and I have a brother that’s a reverend. And he would always tell me “You won’t prosper by poisoning God’s people.” At that time I didn’t understand. But now I see what he’s talkin’ about. So now, like, my ministry is I feed people, you know? Give them food that they can eat and give them nutrition in their body. So I, I, I, I no longer a menace to society. I’m a productive member of society these days. And you know, it’s, you know. While--before I got here, when I left the Culinary School, I went to a restaurant called Delta’s in New Brunswick and did my externship and they hired me as a student. So when I left Delta’s, I went to La Bominare Bakery. And I worked at La Bominare Bakery for like five years, and then Elijah’s Promise came to get me from La Bominare Bakery, and I’ve been with Elijah’s Promise ever since. When I first got to Elijah’s Promise I was helpin’ out the bakin’ instructor teacher with her class. And we had a market called the Better World Market. And I was help teachin’ and managin’ the market at the same time. And then they needed help down here, and I came here. And after I stay about a good 2 and a half years, after the first year I, I learned how to run the place. And then just the way God works, and He has it now that I’m runnin’ it. You know, helpin’ the mission carry out the mission, feed the people. You know. It’s, it’s been great so far. But going a little back to the drug dealing days. Like I said, I’ve had many arrests and when you’re living in that lifestyle, bad things come. I’ve had guns put to my heads in different towns in New York, Elizabeth, different places, I’ve been robbed a few times. And you know, it, it gets ugly out there. I met some guys from, I think it was, uh, Jersey City. And they, back at this time, the guns like the police have are called glocks. Back then there was the berettas. So these guys were mob connected and it seemed like when you do wrong, all wrong comes. They started sellin’ me guys 100 dollars a piece and I would bring them back here and sell them for 300 a piece.

(00:02:57)

And then a guy came to sell me a bulletproof vest. So I felt I was about to get shot. So after that I just stopped sellin’ guns. It was like when you’re doin’ negative stuff, more negative stuff comes. But when you’re doin’ something positive, and doors open, and more positive stuff comes. So it’s like a choice. You make a choice to either do right or do wrong. You, like it says in the Bible, “a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.” So you can’t be double minded or unstable about what you want to do. Because you can do just about anything you want to do. A friend told me before, he said “pick a person”(inaudible). He said “pick a person and if you like what they do, do what they did and you’ll get what they got. But you got to do the footwork.” And… I picked the cook! (laughs) I want a chef and I’m a chef now. I haven’t done everything they’ve done, but I’m startin’ and doin’ certain things. I made it in the right direction. And… Anything else you need to know?

[ Annotation 4 ]

Yeah! Tell me about your family.

My family. Uh. There’s 5 boys. And once… a total of 7, or wha--8. My youngest sister died at birth. Alright. Then there was 5 boys and 2 girls. My oldest daughter, like I said is 34 or 35. When she was born, my oldest brother passed away. She was in my girlfriend’s stomach at the time. And then my youngest brother passed away about 10 years ago. Growin’ up, you know, close knit family. You know. Always celebratin’, like, Easters, went shoppin’, the church, Christmas. We believed in Santa Claus and. You know, the toys didn’t get under the tree until everybody was asleep Christmas Day. I always had like a Thanksgiving, you know. Celebratin’ everything together, went shoppin’ together, eatin’ together. So the family, it was good. And my family is known as the Seabright Family of New Jersey. So growin’ up, we was, we were like one of the biggest families in the state of New Jersey. And all the while while I was doin’ this other stuff, none of my brothers or sisters were ever involved in that t--type of lifestyle. I just learned it from my cousin. One of my sisters asked me, she said “Are you crazy?” And I’m like “What are you talkin’ about?” And she said “none of us do that! We all went to college and you out there sellin’ drugs!” (laughs) And I had a few friends that used to see me, and they used to say they felt bad for me. And I was like “What are you talkin’ about? I’m doing better than you!” Financially, I was doin’ better than them. But not as far as havin’ your life in jeopardy and, and can be locked up at any minute. I wasn’t doin’ better than them ‘cause that’s the predicament that lifestyle puts you in. Your freedom can be taken away at any given time. And when you go to jail, it’s like “three hots and a cot” they say. 

(00:05:51)

You’re--and I, I used to call it legalized slavery. You’re a slave. You have to do what they say. If you don’t, they’ll lock you up in the jail. So you have to conform and abide by the rules, which I did good while I was there. I always abide by the rules ‘cause I didn’t want to make my time no longer. But when I got out, I always went in the wrong direction. I would start off in the right direction, and then like jobs weren’t paying enough, so then I would go back to what I knew that paid. And it was--I felt it was easy, but it was dangerous. And when you’re in that lifestyle, like they say “a vicious cycle”. You don’t see it. Like now I can look and see what people are doin’ and to me I’ll say “that’s crazy.” But when you’re involved in it, it’s not crazy. It’s like, a part of life. So I don’t knock guys and I see and I give information to that come here to eat. I just try to open their eyes up that what they’re doin’ is wrong and that there’s a better way. Because they say “seek and ye shall find”. And if you keep lookin’ for a job, you’ll find a job, but if you keep takin’ the cop out, there is no job. Nobody’s gonna hire me. And that’s just an excuse to do the bad stuff that you want to do. And like I said, you keep doin’ bad things, it’s karma. Bad things keep comin’ at you. Anything else you wanna ask me?

[ Annotation 5 ]

(00:07:11)

Um. How are your parents?

My mother passed away 7 years ago. My mother was a mother like when I was in high school, My sister was a grade higher than me--higher than me. And they had this model student program. And my mother was the mother of the year and she was like… The mother! Everybody’s mother! People could come by my house and she would feed them. She was a good mother. My father… My father was on the quiet side. He gave us everything we wanted, but he didn’t talk a lot. I mean, he showed love but he didn’t like--he wasn’t for like huggin’. Mother was more of the hugger and the disciplinarian. I, I can’t remember a time in my life where my father gave me a spankin’. I remember my mother spanking me (laughing) but not my father. And that reminds me, when I was in 2nd grade I was the class clown. And I used to just clown. My teacher name was Ms. Sika, and she always used to tell me “I’mma have your mother come here! I’mma have your mother come here!” And I was clownin’ the class. So one day she had her arms folded and she looked to the back of the class and I turned around to look and my mother was in the back (laughing) of the class! And my mother says “When you get home I’mma tear you up!” And just that, by sayin’ that in front of everybody, that was like gettin’ a spankin’ or a whoopin’ right there. You, your mother tellin’ you that in front of your friends. And she told me she’d beat me--I don’t remember gettin’ a beating when I got home. But that wa--to me, that was the beatin’. Everybody “oo! Your mother gon’ get you!” (laughing) But my mother, she was a good mother. She passed away 7 years ago. My father passed away like, about uh, I think 15, 16 years ago. But they were good parents, they took good care of us. They steered us in the right direction, but it’s that, you know, I made choices. ‘Cause to this day, like, when I was involved in that lifestyle, my mother would never take money from me. She was a church woman, she was on the stewardess board. At one time she was the oldest member of Malzine AME Christian Church in New Brunswick and Methodist Episcal Church, so, you know.

(00:09:10)

I miss her. But, you know, life goes on. My grandmother and my grandfather--my, my grandfather… (pause) He lived to, he was about 90-something years old. Johnny Seabright. He was the Reverend (inaudible) at Malzine’s right hand man. When they build the new church, he was like the enforcer man there for the church to get built. My grandmother, she was a good woman and she was like the matriarch of the family. She held the family together. Everybody went to grandma for information and knowledge. And back then, gran--she used to always want me to come by to talk to me to tell me the family history but I was doin’ wrong so I didn’t want to hear it. So I missed a lot of the history that she would give my brothers and sisters because I was out there doin’ my own thing instead of doin’ what I was supposed to. Now, when I was younger, grandma was always there teachin’ me stuff. Like I said, we used to do the Jack Lorraine thing, sit there and watch Jack Lorraine exercise together. And she’d cook for me. Took me to my like, my best friend’s funeral. But um. Those were the good old days. Anything else?

(00:10:18)

Um. What about your relationship with your father?

With my father? My relationship with my father was a good relationship. He, um… I remember, um, I was savin’--I was workin’ at Sears in high school. And plus the other money I had, so I wanted to get a moped and a moped costs like about 900 to 1,000 dollars. So he took me to VIP Honda in South Plainfield and bought it for me and then he took the money that I had to buy it and gave each one of my brothers 100 and then gave me my money back. And you know, he did stuff like that. You know, whatever I wanted, so long as my grades were good, he would get it for me. I had this incident in 4th grade where my next door neighbor and I, we used to race AFX, like, the racing cars. And we had like about 15 to 20 cars each, so on one bright day, we decided--we were young. We decided we were goin’ to Bradley’s--at the time, there was a store called Bradley’s, and steal some racin’ cars. So we walk all the way to North Brunswick and we go in Bradley’s and we go into the hardware department and my friend takes the razor and he cuts the box opens and he takes it. At this time, the racin’ car sets had 4 cars in there. So without me seein’, he takes the 3 and gives me 1 and makes it look like he had the one. I didn’t find out ‘til later until after they searched us when I see how many cars he had (laughing) on him. So the second box, he did the same thing. He took 3 and gave me 1. So as we’re leavin’ the store, the manager and a couple of people that work came and they grabbed us by the arms and he ran out to the parkin’ lot and then ran and ran and ran through cars, he’s tryin’ to get away. I just stood there. At this time I wasn’t worried ‘cause my mother was in the hospital havin’ surgery, and she was the dis--(cough)dis--the disciplinarian, so I know I wasn’t gonna be in trouble--

(laughs)

(laughing) --because my father wasn’t gonna really do nothin’. But later on, oh my God. His father killed him. (laughing) 

(00:12:10)

And then um. At, they took us to North Brunswick Police Station. My older brother, he came and got us, took us home. And it so happened, the teacher that I had the year before held the like, in house court thing that we had to go to and asked us what happened and we explain everything, so. I made it out all right. But when my father got home from work, he asked me, he said “boy, what are you doin’ stealin’ a car? We have a car!” (laughing) He didn’t know that it was like the little racin’ cars we stole. But that’s the type of person what he was. He would talk it out. And you know, you didn’t have to worry about it, gettin’ a beatin’. But my mother, she was put--she would put the switch to you or the hand to you the minute. And, you know. She always--she had always had my back about whatever. Like, uh. Certain… People in her neighborhood had stores and the father was like, really mean, and he would hit the people, but if he hit me, I went and got my mother. She wasn’t standin’ for that. She would let you dis--you know, talk to us and discipline us, but you had to come tell her. You weren’t supposed to put your hands on nobody’s kid. So we grew up and it was fun. Like, it, it was fun back then. Stayed in Brogolough Park playin’ baseball. Uh. Stayed just always, my mother used to call me Jackie Robinson. And I used to stay just playin’ sports, playin’ sports. And to look back now, and I wish I can go, like they say, if you can go back? I wish I can go back to just before high school because I would have never took that direction. I would have stayed playin’ sports. We have, um, like, one of the guys that was like a couple grades behind me named Eric Young. He was from New Brunswick and he made it to the pros. And while I was on the All Stars, the Babe Ruth team pitchin’, he was on the little league and I was much better than him. But it just so happened that he was disciplined and he went on the right path and I chose to say “bump sports” and go do the wrong thing and he did the right thing and he made it to the Dodgers, the Colorado Rockies, and now his son’s playin’ major league baseball. But, so if I--if you could turn the time back, I wish I could go to just before high school. And… Choose a better path. I would have played sports and stayed into the books instead of chosin’ parties and makin’ sure your grades are good, but they don’t have to be A+ because when I was younger, it was about just gettin’ As and if a B happens, a B happens. When I was in ah, Roosevelt School, they had me doin’ advanced math back when I was younger. So I wish I’d had--the projectory I was on, the path of doing really well. But once I made that choice to follow my cousin, it was, it was like hangin’ in the Projects, going to what he, where he grew up at instead of--I grew up in a house doin’ stuff that like, I should have been doin’. And so, you know. It’s all about choices and you know, I don’t beat myself up about it but. You know, it happened and that’s part of life.

(00:15:07)

Talk a little bit about your relationship with your siblings?

Um. My, I have two daughters.

Uh, your, your siblings.

Oh! My siblings. Brothers and sisters. Um. M-m-y…. Youngest brother, he and I were really close. His name was Ca-Carl, we called him Cahleek. And I recall my, when I went to Roosevelt Schools, that was 5th and 6th grade. And, it, it was a new school and nobody from my old school was in my class. So I decided I was cuttin’. (laughs) So we used to, for the first 3 or 4 days of school, we were--he wasn’t even in the sc--the grade yet. He was in a lower grade. And my mother swore we went to school. So I would take him up by Roosevelt School with me. Then we would go up to the college and play. And this dog came to bite me! And I have my little brother in front of me (laughing) like a shield. And the dog was rippin’ him apart! (laughing) But that was my little brother. He was, he was cool. He was, he was more like when we got older and like, when I was makin’ the drug money, I used to carry like thousands in my pocket and he used to always tell me “stop carryin’ money like that!” And you know, he al--he was younger, but he always thought he was more, like. You know. He got his apartment first and he always thought he was a little more advanced in thinkin’ as far as doin’ right. My brother that’s just under me, his name is Chris. He has cerebral palsy in one arm. He--and his leg also. When he was uh, younger, he was the poster child for cer--cerebral palsy, in uh. Middlesex County. He went on that telethon, when they had, uh, Dennis James, uh, television. And you know, he walked on the stage and everything. And he’s doin’ good. He’s a DJ now, ‘cause also, when I was in high school, I was a DJ, so I had DJ equipment, and I passed it all to him. And he’s upgraded so his room is like a studio, you know, for DJin’, makin’ music and all that. My (smack) sister Charolette (smack), she’s the one that--she’s ah, like a year and a half older than me, she was a grade higher than me. She’s like Mother May I. Like. The house that we stay in now, I’m upstairs, she’s downstairs. My, my father left it to all of us. So we signed it over to her. So she can get equity to buy other houses. So she owns 2 more houses. So she’s like mother sister, you know. (inaudible) She’s good people, she’s cool. But she thinks she owns everything! (laughs) And she don’t know (laughing) part of the house is mine too. (laughs) But um. She’s ah, a story with her--I remember my next door neighbor, the same guy that I went when we were younger to steal the cars with, we used to play tackle football. And he was older, stronger than me. And he used to always talk smash. So one day we’re outside and I went and got my sister and we jumped him! And then I left her (laughs). 

(00:18:00)

So while the fight was goin’ on, it was--the fight was me and him and she got into the fight. And then I left her to fight. (chuckle) When she got home, she was mad at me! (laughs) But uh, yeah, she’s a good sister. Then I have uh, my olde--my brother. He’s… 4, about 4 years older than me. He lives in Georgia. He’s a Reverend and he’s an accountant. Um. He always, he’s always tryin’ to get me to come fly down there. “I’ll pay for it!” But it’s too hot down there, whoo my God, it’s like an oven. He’s livin’, he’s doin’ real well. He has a shoe store that he opened for his wife. It’s called “Virtuous Woman Shoes”. And he’s, he’s doing good, you know, when--the few times that I went down there it was a nice experience of goin’ down there, but uh. Just can’t take that heat. Its like no sun. It’s like walkin’ out of air conditioner into an oven. And he just walks around with suits on, you know, ‘cause that’s the attire for when you’re up on the pulpit and he loves it, you know. My sister that’s older than him, her name is Michelle. She’s at the house too. She’s an administrative office at Rutgers College. When I was younger, I’d say about… Around a, the 4th grade era, she was like my mother’s sister also. She used to take me to the shoppin’ malls, Menlo Park Mall, Woodbridge Mall, we’d go shoppin’. And then she always would treat me and buy me stuff. And it’s like my two sisters are my sister but mother, they always want to give me some advice. And I listen. And just like my, um. When I came home from jail, my older sister, she was there for me. She was like “don’t forget that you like to forget.” You know, like, ‘cause when I came home they was tryin’ to guide me in the right direction. And I didn’t forget, I still know that I’m doin’ better now. I don’t forget. (pause) (tsk) And my oldest brother… The one that passed away 30 somethin’ years ago, he was a work of art. His name was Marvin, uh, he was the oldest and you know how the oldest, when they come back to the house to babysit for the parents, the house is his. (laughs) You, you have to sit down or watch TV when he wants to watch TV when he’s in the kitchen eatin’ everything and uh… We had a pretty good relationship, but um. He’s gone now. He’s a sharp dresser. He was married, had uh, two k--two daughters. Um, who else is in my family. That’s it, that’s it for the family. 

(00:20:27)

Um, you wanted to share about your, your kids and (overlapping, inaudible)?

(overlapping) Oh, I have, uh, 2 daughters. The oldest one is Trenay and the youngest one is Pontasia. And then I have a son, his name is Carmello. And then I have another son (inaudible) that’s on the way (laughs). So I’m still makin’ children. But uh. Trenay, she’s good. She’s uh, I have a, how many grandchildren will I have… Zayna… (pause) She has two and she just had one. And she’s really intelligent. Last I know, she was in like the nursin’ field like her mother. But, you know, jobs change and since the pandemic whatever, and since she’s got pregnant I haven’t asked her about if she’s still workin’ which she probably is ‘cause she has to pay her rent. And then my youngest daughter, Pontasia, I’m mad at her. (chuckles) Uh, say about 2 and a half years ago, she asked me “Dad! Can you, um, cosign to get me a car?” And I, I said “no, I won’t cosign. What I’ll do is I go get the money out the bank, I’ll buy the car and you pay me back monthly and I’ll pay that money back.” So I get the money out the bank, go buy her a car. Bout an 8,000 dollar car. She made her first 2 payments to me, 200, and hasn’t paid me since. (chuckle) So I’m, I been payin’ off the car--I think I owe maybe about 2 to 300 dollars left to pay off her car, along with payin’ for my car. So I’m kind of upset with her. So for the past 2 Christmases, she’s been gettin’ nothing from daddy for Christmas. (laughs) Her car, that’s the Christmas present. But uh, they’re good girls. You know, they call me from time to time to see how I’m doin’. They call me more than I call them. And they always get on me “Why you didn’t, why haven’t call, why you don’t call all the time?” I’m the type of person, like. If somethin’ happens, I call you. Once in a while I call you just to say hi. But. I just don’t, I’m not the type of person like a lot of people, like, just to pick up the phone or want to be talkin’ to somebody. Just to have some--just to talk, I don’t do that, I, like I have to really have something to talk about or I mus--I have to miss you to call you. That’s, that’s me. 

(00:22:41)

Um, is there anything that you, um… Remember particularly from your time, uh… Uh, dealing drugs that you want to--that you’d be interested in sharing, anecdotally or…?

Anything… I mean, it’s, I went through a lot of wild times. I remember going to New York one time. And it was this heroin drug called “Dollar Bill” and the bags had dollar bill on it. And I took a friend with me and I had like 10,000 dollars on me. So we meet the guy in the Projects and he has a long, like, trench coat on and, I, I don’t know, but I’m tryin’ to find this dollar bill. So he tells me to come upstairs with him. And he has a big long, one of Dirty Harry guns with’m. And all I had was a screwdriver. So I give my friend Brian half of the money and I take the other half and he takes me up top to the roof to the elevator. He could have pushed me off the roof, could have shot me, could have killed me. But he, he was legit. But it’s like, you put yourself in a pre--like, in situations where, like, the normal person wouldn’t do that. That’s very dangerous, to go up on a rooftop in New York City with somebody that you don't know because you’re tryin’ to find this certain drug to sell people. And you’re willin’ to risk your life just to get back and say “I got what ya’ll want.” So you know, you put yourself kinda out there. There was a time in a, Elizabeth. Um. Pioneer Home Projects. ANd I knew the guys there. And when I went into the Project Playground, there’s like people all in the playground. And when I come out the buildin’ after gettin’ what I was gettin’, it seemed like everybody cleared out. They did, because the stick up man was comin’ to stick me up. So as I walked across the court, he put the gun up to my head. So when I lunged at him, he put it right between my eyes. And then he was like “give it up!” And I had a friend with me, and my--the friend was holdin’ the stuff. So, no--I had the stuff on me, the friend had some s--other stuff that I had to move. So I told that friend to give him what he had. And then my friend was--his name was Brent--he was so, like… Scared that he couldn’t move. And at this time, I guess the word Crazy Jury. So the stick up man just reached and grabbed, ripped all my chains off my neck and I couldn’t do nothin’, he had the gun right between my eyes. So when he left, he went into the buildin’. And I went back to the guy (inaudible) that, you know, the guys that I used to deal with, and they came out the buildin’ with guns, lookin’ for him. And we couldn’t find’m. So when we got ready to leav--leave, we went to my friend’s Brent Cadiallac. And we got in the car and said “leave the Projects” and we see the guy backin’ out of the window of the Projects, it was like the low-rise Projects, like 2 stories, 2, 3 stories high. He’s comin’ out the window. And I was tellin’ Brent “Give me--let me drive!” And Brent wouldn’t let me drive and I--thank God he didn’t ‘cause I would have ran this guy over and killed him. So it was like, situations that happened in New Brunswick Projects.

(00:25:46)

I’m down there one day and they see me down there and they know me. But they’re schemin’ on me. So one of the guys pushed me in the staircase and he puts a gun to my head. And I was askin’ him “Whatchu doin’?” And he says “stick up! Come give it up!” So I’m in the staircase and I, I knew the guy And I’m like “Do you know who I am?” And he said “I don’t care! You s-s-stick up! This is a stick up!” And I said “I’m Marvin’s brother!” And he lift me off the ground and start dustin’ me off. He.. My brother Marvin and this guy Dougy, their wives were sister. (snort) Sisters. So then he was like my brother’s brother in law my marriage. And he was about to rob me until he found out who I was. And it’s like when you’re out there sellin’ that drug in the street, you’re game for any stick up kid, anybody that wants to try and getchu. (snap) The one thing I could say I’m, I’m, I missed the shoppin’ sprees. Like goin’ to buy whatever I wanted. But now I don’t really miss it because I don’t carry the money like I used to carry. Back then, when we had so much money on you you can buy anything you want. And you, you see it, you got the money, you buy it. Now the money is in the bank or it’s put up, and I’m like “Do I really want to take that out the bank to buy that?” So I think twice. And I’m like “Nah, I don’t really need it.” So now, you know, I work with my credit cards, debit card, a little cash but I, I don’t try to buy the--plus I’m older now, I don’t need all of that crap, that, you know. Wasatchi glasses and diamonds and every--you know, all your earrings and diamonds on every finger. It was just a phase back then. As you mature you see that… You know, it’s a phase but the younger generation now, and they goin’ through--wearin’ their pants hangin’ off their butt, gold--you know, they still goin’ through the same thing. But it’s kind of rougher out there now where the prices have changed. The stuff is cheaper. And it’s like killin’ around here. I think they have some stuff called fentanyl now. And I hear the people outside when they’re talkin’ and they’re lookin’ for the fentanyl because they wanna nod. And this fentanyl’s killin’em. So. It’s like… (pause) I feel, I feel I got out of the game just in time. And maybe I would have gave somebody somethin’ that kills somebody or. And then prison for, uh, whatever you want to call it. Contributin’ to somebody’s death. So thank God that I got out of it when I got out of it. (pause)

[ Annotation 6 ]

(00:28:12)

When you see individuals come, uh, come here. And you, you recognize the experiences…

Well, most of the individuals that I se--A lot of them that I see come here, I know. I, ‘cause I’m from New Brunswick and they, I had a big name in New Brunswick. So I either--they might have worked for me or I might have given them something or they owe me money, or they just know that I used to be that big dealer and now I don’t deal no more, you know. Now I’m into helpin’ people, you know, feedin’ people, doin’, you know, reachin’ out and going above and beyond to help them out. And a lot of’m ask me how did I do it, and I let them know you gotta surrender! I said it was fun, but it’s not worth losin’ your freedom. Like when a couple times when I was incarcerated I see people goin’ to jail and their parents would die when they was in jail and I would see what they go through. And I was like “Man. I wouldn’t want to be in jail and… You know, my mother and my father, no, my mother die!” And it so happened when I got out of trouble and went to culinary school, she was at my graduation and everything. Three years after she passed, but she did see the transformation of me goin’ in the right direction to where before, I would never admit to her. She could see me drivin’ Mercedes, a Lexus, have gold jewelry and she asked me was I sellin’ drugs? I was always lie. “No, no.” I just couldn’t say “that’s what I do, mom.” You know? So. 

(00:29:45)

Um. What about your time in culinary school? Anything that stands out to you?

Um. Culinary school was fun. Um…. It was just uh, you know, showin’ up every day. And the way I got more advanced than everybody else is I would do the homework! Because when you would take the book home and you would study it, you kind of like understand it, then you get in the kitchen and it’s like bein’ a scientist. You puttin’ somethin’ together. And people is like “how did you get?” Because if you do the homework and it shows you how to measure this and put this together, and then when you get ready to do the hands on part, the process, it gets easier. And then you have a teacher there. So I was kind of like, more advanced than the class and then I used to help some of the, uh, my other classmates out. But it was, it was fun. It was like when you combine the eggs and sugar and like. When cookin’, you can fix cookin’. You can water it down a little bit. You can season it. But with bakin’, it’s a science. If you leave out sugar and you make a cake and you go to taste--you don’t know until yous done. And go to taste and it’s not sweet? Uh… If you forget yeast, it don’t rise, you don’t know until after the final--you gotta throw it away. Well, with food you don’t have to throw it away. If it’s a little salty, you might go water it or add somethin’ to make the salt come out. Or if it’s not seasoned enough you could season it to give it a better taste. So bakin’ is a lot harder than cookin’. And it’s a, it’s a science. It’s like experimentin’, puttin’ certain things together. And if you learn how to mix right and you do it the same way each time, it comes out right every time.

Do you have a favorite food from childhood?

Um.. from childhood… You know they say black people love fried chicken. (laughs) I like, I like chicken. I like steak, I like shrimp. Uh. King crab legs. Uh…. (pause) (mumbles) (pause) 

Is there a special recipe that your mom or your grandmother used to make?

I used to watch my--I really kind of learned how to cook from my mother ‘cause when she used to always cook, I’m in the kitchen stickin’ my finger in the bowl. Her potato salad, macaroni--I was the sampler. (laughs) She would cook stuff and I would always come in, come in from playin’ baseball and I’d come in and sample and then she’s not finished--”Help me with this, help me make these pies, help me--” You know. So. I, I was her sampler and I learnt a few things from her. And you know, when I got into c--(phone rings) (phone silenced) When I got into cookin’ here, it’s, that stuff just started comin’ back naturally. And it’s like, when you’re cookin’, and you put time, effort and love into it, it tastes good. But when you just throw somethin’ together? People can taste it like “eh, that’s crap.” Or, it’s like, same thing like makin’ somethin’, like creatin’ somethin’. When you take your time and effort and you put you in it? And you make sure it tastes good to you? It’s gonna taste good to others. But when you just go by puttin’ this ingredient, that ingredient, it, it’s not, it doesn’t taste too good. So I’ve learned that.

(00:32:48)

Do you have a favorite recipe now?

I make just about anything. I can… I have certain people that “What do you need?” Bring me some ground beef, bring me some cheese, bring me some pies--whatever you bring, I’m gonna hook it up. I’ll make use of fish, I’ll, I’ll fry it, I’ll bake it. Uh… Do a steak. I’ll throw somethin’ on the grill, and.. Sear it, I mean, it doesn’t matter. That’s, I, I don’t wanna sit there and name a certain food? But, ‘cause all different types of food come through here. But what I don’t mess with is deer. (laughs) Sometimes a Rutgers College, they’ll, bring deer here, and I have volunteers--”You, you don’t like venice?”  I’m like “I don’t eat no wild game!” I had an experience when I was younger, one of my friends, his father had a restaurant and he gave me some wild game meat and it had that funky taste. And you can’t get me to eat no--! I don’t even try it! They “just try it!” I’m like “no”. “It tastes like this!” I’m like “no.” So. I mean. And. It’s fun, you know. You have certain volunteers that come here and you can learn from volunteers too. Like when I first got here, I only knew how to cook rice on the stovetop. Now I perfected cookin’ rice in the oven, whether it’s jasmine rice, basmati rice, regular rice, brown rice. I just perfected it that I can put whatever I want. If I want onions, peppers, celery, beans in it, I want to turn it yellow. I mean, and each grain just falls apart just like. I seen people cook like rice in it’s like caked together. My rice just comes out perfect and they be like “how do you make it like this?” So. It’s just a matter of keep doin’ it and get the hang of it and. You know. You learn what you doin’. And, and you master it. So. I mean, it’s, it’s fun cookin’. Time flies too. And you get into makin’ a meal, time flies. Yesterday I was just being creative. I made like a, a cheese sauce with cream cheese and different types of cheeses. And then I just did some pasta. I grilled up some chicken and then I got the chicken up. And then I steamed some peas and I mixed it all together. So it was like a macaroni and cheese with grilled chicken in it. And when they was eatin’ it they was like “oh my God!” (laughs) It just--so long as you give it that nice cheesy flavor, like. Even with spaghetti sauces. If you know how to make that marinara sauce--so I can make it to where, you’ll be full and you like the taste and you just keep shovin’ it down your mouth. And people like “how do you do that?” I’m like “little bit of sugar!” (laughs) (inaudible) But uh. It’s, it’s fun cookin’ sometimes, you know. It’s fun.

(00:35:27)

How do you cook for yourself at home?

Microwave oven! (laughs) People--a lot of my volunteers ask me that. Like, ‘cause you cook, like… I’m so used to cookin’ on a large scale now, like, even with the pandemic now, like. Before I used to cook 3, 4 pans of rice or 3 or 4 pans of this, 3 or 4 pans of that. Now I’m up to 10 pans of everything! So say before I might have made, if I’m feelin’ I’m gonna serve 180 people I might do 180 pieces of chicken. Now I have to do 400 pieces of chicken! So the count, so I’m used to cookin’ in volume now. And when you come home--as a matter of fact, I just for mother’s day, my girlfriend I did her seafood boil, you know, with the lobster and the clams and the crawfish, and what else was up in there? The crab legs and everything. And then the next day she wanted me to make her a beefaroni the way I make it with the sauce. But normally when I go home I let her cook? (laughs) Well, I’m in between homes. I still have the house that I live in, but since the pandemic, she wants me over stayin’ at her house with my son, so. Go there most of the time. But I cook for her for the last 2 days. But. I let her cook, or I’ll heat somethin’ up. I, I don’t really like cookin’ little amounts. Like. I do a basmati rice but it has to be in one pan of it. I can’t do no just no little pot no more. It’s like it’s--and then you cook too much at home, where you gonna put it if you don’t eat it all? So um… Like uh. Somebody asked me about how do you cook your hamburger? I said I microfry it! (laughs) Fry it in the microwave! But if I have somebody come over to eat? Then, you know, I will cook something. But uh. And plus, when I’m here I’m cookin’ so much and samplin’, I’m full by the time I get home. And then when she cooks, “you only ate that little amount!” I’m like “I’ve been around food all day!” (laughs) So. Yeah. (pause)

(00:37:26)

Um. What are you looking to be doing, uh, in the future? Do you want to stay here? (inaudible overlapping)

Well, Elijah’s Promise has been good (clears throat) good to me. I had offers, different offers, people tryin’ to take me away. But I have like a freedom range here. This is not like an upscale restaurant. But I get to call shots. Because from what I used to do, I was a shot-caller. (laughs) So now I can call the shots. If I go somewhere else then it’s gonna take time for me to learn up under them and then work my way up. And I’m 56, retirement time is like 65, so that’s like 9 years away. So. I mean. If the right offer came for the right amount of money? Like if they were gonna double what I’m getting now? Eh, I mean I would have that talk with my uh, director. And… But um. Right now, it’s--things are pretty good, you know. Things are pretty good. And then like when I first came down here, one of my other chefs that trained me, she was Chef Chrissy, she was the teacher when I was a student.  And she was like “you really goin’ down there?” And I’m like “I’m from New Brunswick, I’m from the hood,” you know? “You want to be down there?” I’ve been meetin’ everybody here. I’ve been meeting politicians, I’ve been meeting professional football players. I been meetin’ corporate America, people from banks. I mean when I go somewhere I say “Hey! Chef C--” I mean everybody here! They was just lookin’ for a certain demographic of people who ate here? And we get, you know. People that are homeless. But we get some people that do work. And we get people that can’t make ends meet at what they make and they come here to, you know, have a meal so they can save the money. So I meet everybody here. Like one year Cory Booker was here, Theresa from Housewives of New Jersey. Jonathan Filman of the Giants--not Jonathan Filman, Jonathan Casilius. I mean, uh, state senator to Ted Sweeney. I meet a lot of people here. So it’s, you know. And then since I’ve been there I’ve been upgrading. Like new ovens, new refrigerators, new chairs. And you know, I network with the different volunteers and partners that we have and they ask me what did I need and they help me out. Just like the old game when I met to connect. (laughs) And they could supply me and we friends and they see that I paid them and they’re like “You want consignment? I’ll give it to you.” I have people. I, I used to the same way. Like, they’re my good friends, I’m doin’ somethin’ honest, and they see I’m helpin’ out the community. “What do you need Chef Curtis?” And then they’ll provide. So you know. One hand’s washing the others. They help me and I help the people. And they help me help the people.

(00:40:12)

What’s a typical workday look like?

Say that again?

What does a typical workday--?

A typical work day? Alright, I’ll--gettin’ since the pandemic or before the pandemic?

Before.

Um. Before the pandemic I would have, I say um… I was havin’ a special day. Johnson and Johnson was comin’. So they might send about 10 people in the mornin’. So now I have 10 people that’s gonna--now I try not to allow more than 10 people in the kitchen. So now I have 10 people that I have to supervise along with comin’ in here and loggin’ other volunteers that sign up that are Rutgers college students and people from home that want online. So then I have to have them in the dinin’ room, station them somewhere. Then I have to take some upstairs and have them sort through this and then I have a group choppin’ with me. They’ll chop zucchini, squash, whatever, different vegetables. We’ll roast vegetables, whatever the meat is. We’ll cut it, clean it, prepare it. So we’re cookin’ the meal. And then you know, it’s, it’s like non-stop. (pause) (click) Non-stop supervisin’, cookin’, ‘n sometimes bein’ a social worker. ‘Cause then I have guests come in that want to talk and need to talk to me about somethin’. And then I gotta stop what I’m doin’ and talk to them. And it’s busy? Like I said, the time flies because I’m always busy. So the, busy, uh, a typical day is gettin’ in here, gettin’ the meal ready, servin’ it on time ‘cause we never miss a meal, we always serve on time. So um. Typical day is like… It, it then became the normal. Just gettin’ in here. Not… What’s the good part now is when I get off, now my girlfriend lives in Elizabeth so I have to drive all the way to Elizabeth where my house is 5 minutes away from here. And I miss goin’ home (laughs) and just kickin’ up. So I would---I usually go home and get the mail. See my sisters and my brother. I have a brother that’s there too, the one that has cerebral palsy. I would go by, stop by to see them, get my mail, if I need somethin’ out of the room, get that. Head to Elizabeth. Then when I get down there, see my son. Play with him. He’s into watchin’ uh, Netflix. Um. Wheels on the Bus and Tayo the Truck and all this little stuff. He’ll be, uh, 2 the 23rd. (clicking) But uh. Now since the pandemic, I have to come in a little earlier. The volunteers are no longer allowed to come in. So it’s like, I have one of the helpers that was workin’ at the culinary school in the catering department, he’s here with me now. And then it’s non-stop. People bringin’ snack bags in and, you know, droppin’ of this, that, ask me what I need. Along with tryin’ to do 10 pans of rice. 10 pans of vegetable. 10 pans of whatever, hundred--400 pieces of meat. Salad. And so it’s like a non-stop. It’s busy, it’s busy. But the good thing is, we stop at 1:00. Before it used to be you keep goin’ and serve from 11 to 1. And then dinner is from 5 to 6--no, from 5 to 7. On a regular day before the pandemic, I would have to have another meal ready before I left to go home. So. It’s… Not the same but kinda the same ‘cause those two meals, now it’s compacted into one. And it’s, you know, it’s… So what I would cook for this, like for dinner and lunch, the amount is, I have to have it all ready for lunch time. And then we give out bag lunches with it. So it’s, it’s a busy day. I, I enjoy it. I like coming to work because the time flies and I like getting paid! (laughs) (slap) (slap) Time flies. 

(00:44:10)

Can you describe the um… The, the emotional experience of people that are coming at this time?

Um. At first they were worried. Now that they’re startin’ to let people back out again? They’re not too much worried no more. But a lot of’m come with their ma--you know, they have their masks and some of them have the gloves on. And you know every now and then I have to go out there and tell’m to keep it movin’, like, no hangin’ out in front of the buildin’. You know. They’re happy to be eatin’. I, I see a lot of people come in with their children. So you know, like, schoolkids, a little bit younger kids. Their, their mother and father bring’m and there’s 3 or 4 deep family and they’re all comin’ to eat. So. To where before it was like we did a family feeding thing. Um. That’s from 5 to 6. And they would come sometimes, but that was kinda late. So now, at 1 o’clock and they’re not in school, they can show up, so they show up. Sometimes there’s a line from the door around the buildin’. And then. The line dies down, it picks back up again. And then I have a guy sittin’ in a chair out there. And if I have fresh fruit, he’ll hand out a fruit, you know, some fruit with the bags. So you know. I make--we make it work. 

And it’s all delivery right now--er, all take-out right now, right?

Everything’s all take out. We’re not like, other than you and um, maybe a board member, we’re not allowin’ no one to come in. So. It’s all take out. We, we--after the food is cooked, we put on a steam table, we tray it up in the to-go containers. Then one of them, the staff members take it over to the door. And then the other staff member pushes that we have a shield now in front of the door, glass shield and they put it up under the glass shield. So we try to be safe.

Do you have any opportunity for interaction with clients now? Or is it pretty limited?

It’s limited unless, you know, when I go outside and I ask them to keep it movin’ down, down the block. So I keep it limited. Some of them don’t understand, like when they try to have 6 feet, you know, like ‘cause they wanna try to touch you or bump or shake hands and like, “no! 6 feet. This is serious.” A lot of people don’t take it serious. “It’s like the flu!” You know, like. And I see people droppin’ left and right! (laughs) And they, they just like the flu and. I don’t want that flu! (chuckles) You know?

(00:46:43)

Do you um… Is it the same folks coming back here every day, or…?

We get, uh… We get kind of like the same people, but then we see a lot of new faces. Like, I don’t know if you didn’t know, New Brunswick, we have a men’s shelter around the corner. And a Woman’s Shelter I think that’s in Edison, can’t (inaudible) or something like that. And then, uh, you know. There’s a halfway house in New Brunswick. So a lot of municipalities, when people are come home, they’ll take’m to New Brunswick. And then there’s a lot of people that were catchin’ trains from Woodbridge. They would come from different townships. ‘Cause they know this is one of the only places that’s open 7 days a week that you can eat. And then some people go as far as they’ll camp out around this way, so they’ll be their food--(cell phone starts ringing) (cell phone stops) (silence) (scuffling) (muttering) Tomorrow… Packaging donation… Yeah, but um. And we also feed the men’s shelter that’s around the corner. And we feed a halfway house that’s in New Brunswick called The Bates House. And I don’t, I don’t even add that to the count. That’s another 40, and then that’s another like 20. So that’s another 60 a day. (pause) (scuffling) (pause continues)

I had another question.

Mhm hmm.

Just lost it… Um… (pause) You had mentioned this is your, um, ministry.

Mhm hmm.

Can you speak to, actually your faith?

Um… (pause) I’m a Methodist. I’m a Chr--born again Christian. When I was on, uh… ISP years ago. When I mention my mother was the uh, Mother Year with the, like the model student program and all that… The police captain at the time was Donald Bolan. And my sister was one of those model students. So when I was home on, uh, ISP, my sister and Donald Bolan, we went to church. They took me to church. (laughs) So um. You know, when they had this thing called the Call to the Alt--Altar. I ye--when I was younger, I always went to church with my mother, but as I got older, I stopped goin’. They had this thing called Call to the Altar. So. I stood up. And they asked me why was I here and I said “I came to seek the Lord!” (laughs) So. They brought me up to the Altar and all the pastors and annoyin’ people put their hands on me and they prayed. And I said the sav--The Savior’s Prayer. And I got saved. Then, you know, After that started studyin’ the Bible. This is one, one of my times when I wasn’t sellin’ drugs. In between, like, you know, you get locked up ‘n you do right for a while.

(00:49:40)

So I was into the word of God and I always felt like the Book of Jonah--like Jonah. Like he always ran from his calling. And I have a, another cousin that’s the bishop at Abundant Life while I was at Drug Core, but he had did a missionary in Africa. And he came back to New Jersey and he came to get me. He has a big church down here called Abundant Life, big church. And he came to get me to come to his ministry. And I was like “I’m not goin’.” I’m in my garage liftin’ weights, workin’ out. And I always had thought that God had some type of callin’ for me to do but I was always runnin’. ‘Cause I had uncles’n… Pastors and reverends and bishops all in the family. And it, it was like do I want to do that? So now I feel like when I came to that meetin’ and, you know, they was prayin’ and I asked God to send me a nice place to work and he put me there. But like you said, well you didn’t do what I really wanted you to do, so do this. So when I do this, it feels well with my soul, so. Maybe it’s a calling. I maybe had to go through al that to be here.And it’s like, you know, helpin’ people, that’s what it’s about. Helpin’ each other. (pause)

Umm…

But I was in the church choir. I was stayin’ with the brothers of the church. I was feedin’ the homeless at night, I was doin’ it all when I was in church. But when I went back out into the street, all that fell by the way side. 

When you um, decided to start selling, um… What… What did you need--what were you looking for, did you think you needed out of like, brought out of the experience that it offered you?

When I started sellin’? 

Yeah.

At first it was just like, when I saw my cousins, the things that he would acquire and you know, like the, the dress code, the way he would be able to dress and buy stuff. So I was like that was cool. So then I got into that, worked for that. And I did time, I think uh. My sister had went to college and then I took over in her station wagon. So we would go to the movies, goin’ different parties, goin’ places. And always able to buy anything we wanted. So that, that kind of like lured you in to this lifestyle. Like, you can buy anything you want! So it was like the money. Like they say, the love of money is not money, the love of money is the root of all evil. So it’s, you know. It was the money.

(00:52:21)

(inaudible)--that, that, that interest isn’t--it’s not there anymore?

No, it’s not there because like I have money now saved and, like, the stuff I wanted then, I don’t want now. Like. Just to be buyin’ ‘cause for the sake of buyin’. Like the other day, my birthday was April 25th and different people gave me, you know, gifts. A, gift card to Amazon. So I go on Amazon, buy LeBron James sneakers. And it cost almost 200 and I’m like did I really want them? I didn’t even wear’m yet. (laughs) And you know, I bought these and I’m workin’ in’m. So, you know, I’m like, before it was like “you know, I’m not workin’ and they only for show!” So it’s, you know, it’s like, different perception of things, like. You don’t want the same things no more. 

Um. Is there anything you want to leave me with in terms of…?

Mhm, let me see…

Lessons, experiences?

Um… We all have a, a choice, you know. You have the power, that’s your power. Your choice, the choices that you make. And if you make the wrong choices… Then you’re luckily that it doesn’t take your life, you can always make it right. Or you might have the time to make it right. But it’s up to you to make it right and reflect on the choice that you made and try to go in a different direction. Like my brother always used to tell me, he said “it’s like New Jersey and California. Instead of takin’ a straight line to get there,” he said, “you gotta go to Texas! (laughing) Ohio!” He said “you gotta just zigzag,” and he said “I would,” like the lifestyle I was livin’, I was just zigzaggin’ to get where I needed to be. So it’s just like, just take the straight path, straight and narrow, do the right thing and you get to wherever you want to go. So I’ve, I’ve learned that, you know…. I’ve, I’ve learned how to be reliable. Like. I’m alway workin’. My director callin’ me for somethin’, I’m there.You know. I’m, I’m a reliable per--I was kind of reliable in that other field, but it was, it was just all about doin’ the wrong stuff. But now, I use that bein’ reliable and I’m doin’ the right thing now. And that’s what it’s like each one to each one, it’s about helpin’ other people. A lot of people are in need. A lot of people can’t see in the right direction or the right way to go. And you try to steer’m, some listen, some don’t. But if you help a few or if you help one, you help somebody. So. That, that’s a blessin’ in life, right. Tryin’ to help somebody and--it gives, it makes you feel good to know you doin’ somethin’ right. Because, like when I was doin’ the wrong stuff? I would feel good about the money. ‘Cause I accumulate all this money. But then I’m thinkin’ about like, wow. They can’t even buy themselves nothin’. ‘Cause I done took all their money.

(00:55:15)

I had (cough) a friend when I worked at Sunshine Biscuits. And he used to have to sign his check over to me ‘cause he owed me so much. So one day they called me in personale office. And they see my signature, his signature on his check and asked me how did I get his check ‘cause he told me he wanted another check, he lost his check. And I was like “no, he owe me money, he had to sign his check over.” And it was that bad for him that he had to sign, he keep signin’ his check over ‘cause he owe me so much money. But um. Man, you take away from people that are caught in their addiction and they lost the power to do anything about it. So I realize that now, you know. 

Um, is there anything you want to share about your experience, uh, being incarcerated or going through criminal--criminalization process?

Um. Through the--the first time I ever went to jail, um. It was like camp. ‘Cause you know, there’s guys that I knew. And you just want to be out of there, but it’s like you made the best of it. You worked in the kitchen. And y--after you come back you’re confined to a serving area, you watch TV and it’s like the same blah blah blah. Then the second time we’re a little older now. It was like, you can’t wait to get up out of here again. And it’s about the same thing. The third time--the first two times I never made it to prison, I had stayed in the county. The third time… I made it to Southern State. And uh. They broke it up kind of good, like, transferred me around. Did a little bit of time in the county, then I went to Kraff, where that’s the reception. And then the experience when you get to Kraff is you stand in there and you have a like, that monkey suit on and you neck it up under it. So then you gotta strip so everybody standin’ there butt naked (laughs). And you waitin’ for the officers to give you direction. And they want you to fold your box in reach--in your personal stuff that you bought with you and if you didn’t fold your box right, he donate it. So I have my wallet and my identification, my Jayla Rose jersey. And I didn’t fold it right. So all my stuff got donated. Then we go up into the reception place and we had to take a shower. Then you’re sittin’ in the cell. Everybody had boxers ‘n the t-shirt ‘n just. Some people love it, I just like “man this is”, you know, this is crazy. And I stayed there for maybe like a week. And then I went to Southern State. A lot of people stayed there for like 6 months. And that was like--Kraff, there’s a, in Trenton, is the Trenton State psychiatric part of the jail where it’s, it was intake at that time. And then when you get where you’re goin’, it’s like you see people that you know that you haven’t seen because they've been locked up, and then you just get used to it.

(00:58:00)

And it consists of walkin’ the track and, you know, goin’ out, smokin’ cigarette and rakin’ up geese shit until you get a real job. And um… I applied for the therapeutic community. And it was about addressin’ behaviors. So they accepted me. And when you get accepted, you have to have full mineral status, because you’re not behind a fence no more. So where I was at was outside the fence and it was called the Blue Roof Inn. And at that time, I was readin’ the Bible again, word of God, so I was livin’ a plain good life in there. And I rose up on the structure to where I was like one of the top 5 on the structure reportin’ to the clinical supervisors every day. So we would address other--and it was 4 units. Like 2 floors, 2 upstairs, 2 downstairs. And I think it was like 80 people in each unit. So I was on the top 5 of my unit. And um. It was fun. But you had people from different towns that you address their behavior--they wanna fight! And if you fight, you go back into the jail, like behind the fence. And when you had to go for a dental appointment, you had to go into the compound behind the fence. And when you would, after you’re programming from 8 in the mornin’ to 7 at night every day, goin’ to cognitive thinking classes, reentry classes, computer classes, you know, you educatin’ yourself, why you in jail and learnin’ about why you did what you did. Your behavior. And when you go into the dentists, back into the compound, it looks like slow motion. Like they’re just zombie’s walkin’ around, like, because that’s some, they’re not doin’ nothin’ but cutting grass and just walkin’ the track. (stutters)--when I was there, I didn’t see it. But when I got (small crash) out of it and went back to see it? And that’s how it is now, like with the drug game. When I was in it, I didn’t see it. But now when I look back, I can like “he’s sellin’ drugs, I can see--” you know, I can see it real good. It was like zombies walkin’ around, I was like “wow.” So um. After, um, Southern State when I left there, I went to a place called The Rescue Mission in Trenton. And that was like… They called it Club Feeeh. (chuckle) Because we had the lady from Trenton, she was Christine Whitman’s cousin, Mary Gay Abbot. She ran that mission. And it, it had like a big day room with a big screen TV where we have our mornin’ meetin’s and it was like 4 to a room. And we--I worked in her store. Like, she had a rescue mission store. And then the person that I am showed up in her store. ‘Cause I was sellin’ every--(laughs) Everythin’ movin’ in the store! I made her a lot of money! But I was the type of person like where I haggle if--say you came and you want, bought this used dresser and it costs 400 dollars. I would charge you a certain a price, take that to the register, and make a deal with you that you gotta tip me this certain amount. So I was, I made big money there and she knew I was makin’ money but I made her so much money off donated stuff that she didn’t do nothin’ about it. So when I left there, I left there with about 14,000 dollars and about… how many weeks was I there, not even… (pause) Not even 15 weeks. And, you know, so.

[ Annotation 7 ]

(01:01:26)

When I left there, I went to Boa Robinson which in Trenton. Worst place ever. It was when we, it was a heatwave there and it was so hot we couldn’t sleep in our rooms. The heater what, the--air conditionin’ system was down. They kept me there for four months. I hated it. Then um. When I finally left there, those places I went to, um, Field House in East Orange. At Field House in East Orange it was a Muslim ran halfway house. And, you know, because I was kind of like respectin’, have well-mannered (inaudible) that got me a job at the Hut Deal. It was like the Hut Federal Building downtown Newark where I would take (chair clanging) apart the Dell Computer systems and the technicians would come in with (chair scratches) and after I put the new computer system together with the replicator and all that, they would transfer the information and it was called “Zotech Resources.” And everybody in the h--uh, halfway house would ask me “bring us a computer!” Like I’m gonna steal a computer, and you know, to get up there I had to have a pass to get on the elevator on my thing and they trusted me. I’m like, I’m not gonna bring no computer to your guys and then these guys would drop me off like at the halfway house every day. They, I was, they was gonna give me a job when I got out, but the way the technicians, they travel from country, state to state, they would go to Puerto Rico. So I couldn’t leave ‘cause I’m on parole. So I could never get the job. I had got in contact with the people and they was like “let us know when you get off parole.” And that never panned out. So. But I still had money and I had my own place. And then uh. Around that time my brother had passed away, my youngest brother. When he passed away, and I just got back into drug dealin’. So. But that was just an excuse to get back, you know, somethin’ didn’t fit right. Like, if you watch the Michael Jordan documentary, he make himself mad to, you know, play better? Somethin’ didn’t work out right? “Oh! I’m gonna sell drugs.” You know. Like. That was an excuse. I look back at it now, it was excuses. So. Um. You know, it’s… It’s not hard, but you can make it hard. But you’re not free, you know. You’re confined. Wherever you are, that warden is the president of the United States. Like, you know you have your president, we have the president. But that’s the president now, ‘cause you’re confined to this place and what he say go. Don’t worry about whatever was Regan or is Trump or Obama was sayin’ or doin’, you’re in that building. You ain’t got nothin’ to do with nothin’ else. I, you just was sittin’ there. So wherever you confined, that’s where you are.

(01:04:09)

So it’s like, it’s not hard, but you can make it hard. And then you got guys that you have to stay away from because if you yoke with the wrong guys, you’ll find yourself in some trouble. So. But the time went by. As you’re goin’ through it, it seems long. Then when it gets over, you’re like “oo, that went by!” But it’s, it’s long. It’s long. (laughs) It’s long. ‘Cause I had a 5 with a 3. If I’da got in trouble, I’da did the whole 5. So I wasn’t tryin’ to get into no trouble, to just to do the three. And get up out of there. So. That’s what happened.

[ Annotation 8 ]

How did your brother pass?

My youngest brother, he, um… When he was born, they said he was a cardiac--he had a hole in his heart. And then he went and had surgery on his arms. And somethin’ happened where he had to go back to the hospital, and then he, he passed away. But uh, as when we grew up when we was younger, they used, my mother used to always say that he was born with a hole in his heart.  So he had a, kind of like a weak heart.


And you’re, are you close with all of your siblings now, or?

Yeah, still close with all of’m, yeah. It’s just now, I don’t contact them as much, like my oldest, my brother in Georgia that’s a Reverend, when I contact him it’s always a “come on down and visit!” Like I had, back in October I went to Vegas, me and my girlfriend took the, flew to Vegas. And he wants me to come to Georgia, and I’m like (laughing) man, I’m going to play blackjack! I’m going--I went to see, uh, David Copperfield, Chris Angel, you know. Ate at different places. And you know, I had a nice time. I had a nice time down there, but he had me at church. (laughs) And I was like, oh man, I’m, I’m goin’ to Vegas, not with the heat, I’m not goin’ into the heat. So. Yeah. 

Curtis, thank you so much for your time.

You’re welcome.

I really, really appreciate it.

Okay. 


Um, if there’s anything else that you, like, remember or like you want to share, it’s really easy for me to just pop over--

alright, well what happens, you know like when I talk about somethin’ and then later on (chair scratching) I think about “oh, I forgot about this, forgot about that.” Like I just did uh. This right here also. (pause) (snap) It’s, you ever hear of Be Inspired?

No.

(silence) (inaudible) (audio plays from phone with quiet music in the background)  “Professional baseball player ‘cause I was pretty good. And before you know it I was sellin’ in the plant, I’m sellin’ their hometown. I got a 3 year sentence. When I was out there in the street, I used to give them the wrong stuff. But now I’m feeding them. I’m helping them get nuition in their body. That drive that I put into doing that madness, I put it into the food and I just create stuff and they love it. They love it.” (music continues) 

A woman from the recording: Next, on Be Inspired--

(recording stops)

So yeah. That did--

It was--

I did that back in uh… I think it was March and it’s gonna air I think Friday. 

Is that uh, Bert Baron?

Yeah, that’s Bert.

Got it.

Yeah, he sent me this, uh, I think he sent me that Monday. Well, Bert didn’t send it. The guy that runs that a--the, the uh, podcast, he sent it to me. Yeah. And I get nothin’. Elijah’s Promise get it. (laughs)

Sorry?

I said I get nothin’, Elijah’s Promise get the money. (laughs) No, they told me if I, “you do it we’ll give Elijah’s Promise some money” so I went and did it.

Oh! That’s cool.

Yeah.

That’s very cool. (scuffling)

Alright. Thank you very much--

(01:07:52)

END FOURTH RECORDING

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MAY 13th, 2020 INTERVIEW, FIFTH RECORDING

(00:00:00)

Whenever you’re ready.

Alright. Ah. Say back in the late 70s, the New Jersey Nets were in need of a new stadium. They moved from New York to New Jersey. So they used the Rack for two seasons. And me and my friends, we were young. We were, I think in the 7th, maybe 6th and 7th grade? Whatever. So we call ourselves ticket scalpers. So we used to go up to in Piscataway--I grew up hangin’ on college student centers, (loud creaking noise)  like the old barn and before, you know, they built all this new stuff. So we used to go up there and scalp tickets, and what we would do is we would stand and ask people if they have extra tickets (laughs). And some people would come and hand us a ticket and we would turn around and sell it. So maybe that started with the sellin’ stuff too (laughs). So um. After a while, I, I got to connect with the guys that there were c--older college students and they worked the door so they used to rip the stub part off the ticket and give me like, stacks of tickets. So we out there just sellin’ tickets and makin’ hundred and hundreds of dollars. And I got to see every--this was back when uh, Havlicek, Paul Westford, George Iceman, Girving, uh, who else was playin’... Tim Bassett. Uh. Phil Jackson I think was on the Knicks at that time, ‘bout to leave. Javerd Bretechoff. Dr. J. Uh. Darrel Dawkins used to break the backboards. Got to see at a young age, got to see every MBA player (smack) there was back there. Havlicek was on his way out the door like I said. But uh. It was fun. Bernard King was on the Nets. And what made me--we were talkin’ about Suydam Street--one day I was goin’ to school and I’m gettin’ ready catch the Livingston Avenue Bus and who do I see in New Brunswick? Was Bernard King. Bernard King was a famous star on the Nets and the Knicks. And um. Back when I scalped these tickets, every Saturday we would catch the, mo--the bus to New York City. And we were young. And our mothers thought we were at the park. (laughs) So we would catch the bus to New York City. We would buy Pony Sneakers. We would buy sweatsuits. We would go see Richard Breyer movies and we would get back and my mother was like “Where was you at?” “I was around the corner!” (laughs) And we’d been goin’ to New York City all day long, could’ve got hurt. But uh. Those were fun days, scalpin’’ tickets. After that I learned how to scalp tickets at Rutgers football games but I didn’t, it wasn’t much money involved in that as, as the pro level. Pro level… Few times we got arrested by the campus police because that was there job, to like secure the parkin’ lots. And they would just take us down and ask us questions and release us and tell us we couldn’t scalp tickets in front of the buildin’. So they would push us out into the parkin’ lot. But then we would work our way back to the buildin’. But back then the baddest basketball player that I ever see play was Michael Ray Richardson. He was like uh, hyper Magic Johnson back there. And I’ve seen them all, I’ve seen a lot of players play. He was, he was a monster.

(00:02:57)

But uh. I can recall on a Saturday the Knicks played, and I wouldn’t go into halftime ‘cause at halftime they stop chargin’. And I was, I wanted to make sure I had made (laughing) all the money I could possibly make. Uh. Those were the good old days. Rutgers. Ridin’ the campus buses. Goin’ to the bar and playin’ basketball. Goin’ to Piscataway uh, was it Tilling Hall? Going to Livingston Gym. (tsk) When I was younger, I was in Roosevelt School, 5th or 6th grade. And me and my friend got busted that he just passed, uh, last, this past week. Saturday I think it was. Name was Kevin Harris. We used to play volley bombardment. When you hit like a dodgeball. And we used to go to the gym out there and I used to take, steal the volleyballs and come to school early in the mornin’ cause s--school started at 9. So we would be out at school at 7 in the mornin’ playin’ dodgeball in the mornin’ on the side of the school and that was like a fun thing for us. But uh. Yeah, that was the good old days. School. (laughs) Alright, that’s it. (clap) (scratching)

(00:04:03)

END FIFTH RECORDING