After retiring from a career in education, Barbara Saunders has continued to be an active member of Mount Zion Church, both in choir positions and currently as its History Room Coordinator, an initiative that was first started by Alice Archibald.
“It seems like an impossible task, and it looms before us as the monumental undertaking. But I will remind them of what you did and what you believed. I will remind them that you used massive non-violence to force America to look at itself. I will remind them that you became America’s conscience and forced us to examine our country and our hearts, and that what we found was so painful that you were murdered so that we would not have to look anymore. So we stopped looking at injustice, and the hunger, and the poverty, and the wars continued. And now it is left to our children to pick up the pieces of your broken dream and put it back together again. So I will put out a plea on your behalf to the children: please gather together and find the fragments and pieces of Martin’s dream. Put it back together and make it a reality, so that when we meet again next year, I can say “Look God! Look Martin! John Dewey High School is able to stand up and say with new meaning and conviction, ‘I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.”
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: “Plessy v. Ferguson (1896),” National Archives, September 14, 2021.
Learn More [2]: “The Broad Ax, (Salt Lake City, Utah) 1895-19-, August 07, 1909,” National Endowment of the Humanities, accessed May 22, 2022.
Learn More [3]: “Plessy vs. Ferguson: Separate Isn’t Equal,” Jim Crow Museum, Ferris State University, accessed May 22, 2022.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Daniel Swern
Interview conducted remotely
June 3, 2020
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
Annotations by Hannah M’Lynn
[FIRST RECORDING]
[00:00:00]
[silence] [clicking] [silence]
[00:00:53]
[inaudible] Cool, you’re here. Um. Ah, so, ah, Barbara, thank you for taking, ah, the time to speak with me. I know this week in particular is, ah, a– Probably a bit harder? Um. To sort of speak from your experience. I deeply appreciate, ah, you still, um, offering to take the time. Um.
[overlapping] No problem.
Ah. So the way this will work is, ah, what I’m going to do is, ah, I’m gonna state, sort of the time, date, and, uh, the context of the call? And uh, what I’m gonna do is ask you to start from the beginning. And what that means is, ah, what I’d like you to do is literally start from your earliest memory? Um. And then bring us into the present. Um. And no– no detail is too small or too insignificant. What this is is, it’s an opportunity for you to document what you believe is your experience and your narrative. Um. So what the– the context to which I came to you about the Archibald Park project is not necessarily– it shouldn’t necessarily inform the story you tell me. It should be more about, um– You taking the time to speak with me. Or– I’m sorry, me taking the time to listen to, ah, your story. Ah, whatever that story might be. Okay?
Oh! [laughs] Okay! I– I don’t– I was thinkin’ it was, uh– Goin’ to me be more about the history room and– And Alice Archibald, but–
[overlapping] We’ll– we’ll get there, we’ll can tote– we can totally get there. Um. When it comes up in the story. But I’m– I’m more interested in not know– knowing you? And sort of how, your experience and your context informs the work that you’re doing there.
Okay. Starting from when I was born? [laughs]
[laughs] As– as early as you can remember.
[laughing] Okay.
[00:02:57]
Cool. Thank you. Um, ah, so, ah, this is, ah, Dan Swern. Uh. This is, um, Wednesday, June 3rd at 3:03 pm. I’m here speaking with, if you wouldn’t mind speaking your name?
Barbara Saunders.
Ah, and, uh, we are doing this call over the phone. Ah, there is currently a national pandemic, ah, that is requiring, ah, physical distancing. Ah, between individuals. Ah, so this interview is going to be part of coLAB Arts, um, general archive, dur– that is taken during the, ah, pandemic. Um. And so Barbara, again, thank you so much for your time and for joining me. Ah, and if– whenever you’re ready, ah, you can start from the beginning.
[deep breath] Well, the beginning, I was born in Greenville, Tennessee. My earliest memory is of living in a one room shack with my mother– A brother, and older sister. And I– I guess I’m– I couldn’t be, couldn’t have been more than maybe 4 or 5 years old and I remember that. Uhh– Also, uh, I remember from that time, my great aunt, who was my babysitter, and uh– She would sit me down in the middle of the kitchen floor and give me a pan that had had rice cooked in it that stuck to the pan, and put some, uh, sugar in the– in it, and I’d sit in the floor and eat the– [laughs] eat the rice out of the pan. That, that’s what I remember as the earliest earliest memory. Ah– I went to school there. I was, um. I– a decent student. I didn’t– I never thought that I was very smart smart. But I was able to manage to get through, I thought. I remember learnin’ to write. Everything I turned in to teacher wrote “messy” on it. So. [laughs] When I got it back. Um– I– Growing up in Tennessee, I, I obviously was a– in a segregated school. The school was not desegregated until I was, uh– I think 11th grade. And, well actually it was af– after that, because they wanted me to be one of the people to go to the white school. And I didn’t wanna do it because I was a senior. So they integrated it the year after I graduated in 1956.
[00:06:00]
I wanted to go, wanted to join the, uh, the air force. Because I knew we didn’t have the money for me to go to college. And– but my mother wouldn’t sign the papers. So I– it so happened that this, uh, that summer after I graduated, I was workin’ at a little dress shop. Um. And in the next town over, livin’ with a cousin. And, uh, my mother called and wanted me to come home– she had somethin’ for me to do. And I went home and discovered that two of my teachers had gone to this white, ah, woman, rich white woman who lived there. An– who was a member of, I think a Methodist, [inaudible], something or other– church, uh, that sent money to a local, a nearby– Junior college. Every year. And they had asked her to send it in my name. So that I could go to college. I didn’t know any of this until I got home. But she wanted to meet me. And, uh, she met me. This was, maybe– Oh. Two, three weeks before the college was supposed to start, and I hadn’t even applied, actually. But, uh, she agreed to send the money in my name. They very swiftly got the school to accept me. And I ended up at Morristown Normal and Industrial College. Um. There for– Couple of years. I– I worked for the Dean Registrar. I, well, my major– back up again. I decided since I was gonna go to college, I would major in Phys. Ed. But of course, Junior College didn’t have a phys ed major. So I had to do secretarial studies. And– I was on a work-study program as well as the money from this, uh, lady whose name I can’t remember right now. Um, and, uh, I worked for the Dean Registrar. Was very nice. So I graduated from Morristown College and was given the job as a secretary to the Dean Registrar. I– he went on vacation after a couple of weeks and while he was gone, I– was, uh, called into the President's office to talk about the fact that I could not work there and have a boyfriend who’s still a student, ‘cause the boyfriend was, uh, going to be a sophomore.
[00:09:13]
As, in that year. So he fired me. [laughs] And I went home. And– Er, I had actually applied to Delaware State College. But, what’s that– since I had a job for the Dean, I was just gonna stay there. But, um, Delaware had accepted me and I had an uncle who lived in Wilmington, which is the only reason my mother would probably agree to let me go north. Ah, so I went to Delaware State College in 1958. And uh– Graduated from there. In ‘50– in 1960. And what kind of experiences I had? Oh, I– I, uh– Got a job as, at the, um, D.I. Duponte. D.M. Moore’s Experimental Station. And was the first black person to work in an office at that, uh, facility. Um– And– Well, I was the first assigned as, in the secretarial pool. But then went on to the, uh, to be assigned to [inaudible] gentleman. In an office there. Aaaand– It worked out for a while. I had a summer in between there– I got married. Had a daughter. My husband worked for a Duponte company in Wilmington. And, ah, he told me one day he was thinkin’ about applying for a job somewhere else since he was not happy with working in the county department. [cough] Excuse me. And he, uh– So I said “okay,” but I was very happy living in Wilmington. I had a nice– had several relatives there, lots of friends from the school. And had a fairly decent job. I had, but when he said he was thinkin’ about lookin’ for another job I said “okay,” you know. Turns out the job was gonna be that he got, was in Rochester, New York working for Kodak. So, uh, I out– I asked to go to back to Delaware State College because when I went to Delaware State College, uh, the advisor there told me that, uh, would be better to take a Business Ed., uh, curriculum rather than secretarial studies ‘cause then I could teach, uh, afterwards.
[00:12:18]
I had no intention of teachin’ soon as I got out of college because I probably looked like I was about 16. I was afraid the kids would, uh, overpower me. ‘Cause I– I looked very, very young at the time. And, uh, when he got– he got the job in Rochester, I decided to apply for the school. Uh, to teach. And it turns out that I was hired. At a school in Rochester that was all white. All the kids were white. There was one other black teacher there. And uh– Had a very, very good, uh, sup– chairman of the department. Because he was very helpful with, uh, teaching me how to teach. Because I, you know, I was really, um, not comfortable. I– I didn’t think with it. But, uh, he, uh, he would meet me every morning before class and every afternoon after class for like a month when I first started. To go over what I was gonna do and at the end of the day, meet with me. Was very good that they integrated the school. I– I’m startin’ to sound disjointed. Anyway, they inte– integrated the school while I was there. Uh. And, uh, lived there for like three years. But the first time I ever attended a– a class with a white person or any other ethnic group was when I was in Rochester. I had to take a class at the local college. Uh, so, yeah, but. All of my schooling prior to that had been in segregated schools. And from Rochester, I went to– my husband was, actually he was– that’s when they had the World’s Fair in– in, uh, New York. In Flushing. He was assigned the, uh, photobooth for Kodak at the World’s Fair. And, uh, that was like for a couple of years. And after that, he was transferred to New York as a– Vision supervisor or something. I, I don’t even remember what his job was. But anyway, he was transferred to New York. So I, we moved to uh– Flushing. And, you know, bein’ from the south and not really, really knowing– I mean, being afraid of New York, I, uh, I did apply for a job. And got a job almost immediately as, at uh– Well, was not a vocational school– At a school in Brooklyn.
[00:15:40]
And uh– Was there for a year. And got transferred– well, I asked for a transfer to a school in Queens that had opened the year before, was a new school. And got to, um– That school, [inaudible] high school or somethin’ from Long Island. Closer to where I lived, ‘cause we lived in Flushing. And I loved that school. I loved the supervisor. He was really, really nice. And the kids were nice and I was going very well, was very happy with the school in, uh, Queens. And, ah, apparently a– a woman who was the wife of a principal of another school wanted his wife to teach in the school where I was. Because it was– they lived on Long Island and it was closer for her. So I was told that I didn’t have a job. That she was gonna be transferred. And well, that somebody else was gonna be comin’ in to that position. And I was very upset. So I went in to [inaudible]’s office and [inaudible] “I don’t wanna leave! I love this school!” And while I was in there the phone rang. And, uh, he said, “I need to talk to someone on the phone,” and he said, “Well, there’s one sittin’ right here in front of me.” And when he hung up he said, “They’re opening up a new school in Brooklyn. It’s an experimental program. And they are looking for teachers to open up the school. So I told them that you should interview for the job.” So there I go again. I was interviewed, and while I was interviewing with the, um– Person who was, um, going to be chairman of the business, ah, department. He excused himself from the room and went out for a minute. And then he came back and said, “Well, I guess I’m gonna have to hire you ‘cause I just ran into your supervisor from the other school who said, ‘if she’s up there grab her.’”
[00:18:17]
So I was one of the, um, teachers that was assigned to open the new school in Brooklyn. And, uh, was scared to death, ‘cause now I have to– well, first I was takin’ the subway from Flushing to Manhattan to Brooklyn, when, in the first school I was in, which was really onerous, was almost an hour, hour and a half ‘cause you have to change trains and– Not so great. So, uh, I finally– ‘cause I wouldn’t drive. But then I decided to– when they hired me to the school in, uh, the other school, John Dewey High School it was, it was an experimental magnet school. And, uh, the students had to apply to attend. It was very innovative. It was, uh, it was open campus. They, uh– It was an eight hour day and students were allowed, um– Ah, I want to say free time but hopefully they wouldn’t use it as free time because they had a resource centers there when they didn’t have class, they could go to a resource center and do homework or whatever. And, uh, shortly after I was– after the school, well, when the school was still being built, actually, when we were hired. But we had to go in for the summer. The first day I– I went, I finally did this get over my fear of driving. I drove to, uh, Brooklyn. And parked the car. Turned and had to walk through all the construction ‘cause they were meeting on the second floor somewhere. And I didn’t realize it at the time, but I had parked at the back of the school ‘cause I didn’t know where I was going. But anyway, I walked through and I– and, uh, but the first– first day they had met in one of the rooms, uh, upstairs. That was completed. But they had to, uh, go to a– we had to go to a different school, I think it was the elementary school nearby. That we went to, uh, for the rest of the– the summer. So– and we spent the– spent the summer planning, uh, how we were going to do, uh, the things in the school. The necessary kinds of classes– it was gonna be all [inaudible].
[00:21:08]
I was the business teacher. I taught, uh, typing and shorthand. Which is– nobody knows that anymore because there’s no more shorthand or typing! However, uh– What’s– after we opened the school, uh, su– in– in– in the, I guess in August or in September, I was there and I was teachin’ my class. And I, uh– maybe at the end of September. And, uh, they were filling positions for, uh, ah, a co-op coordinator which was, uh, they had had students that would be assigned to, uh, businesses to do jobs or whatever and– and, you know, they’d go in the school, but all, all would be out. Uh, and, um, in the community had, at different locations during the jobs for which they were getting paid. And I wanted to be the advisor or the coordinator that particular, uh, program. And I made that known. But I was teachin’ my class one day and the assistant principal comes up and says to me, uh, “The principal wants you to apply for the Dean’s job.” So I said, “I don’t want to be the Dean. I wanna do the co-op thing.” “Well, the principal wants you to apply for it.” So it turns out that the Dean’s job was actually the title was “student coordinator”. And I was a disciplinarian, crisis intervention person. Um, they– they had wonderful boys and wonderful girls so they didn’t want to call them Deans, ‘cause Deans were, in New York, were the crisis individuals. And the kids, they– they tried to give different names to it. Like they would– would put on the bathrooms, they would put “ladies’ and “gentlemen” and put other names on things that were a little more acceptable to kids I guess. At any rate, I was the Dean, uh, girls coordinator [inaudible]. Just for– in– in addition to teaching, I taught three classes and the rest of the time I was in the office, where I would, uh, you know. Kids would be refered to me when they were having difficulty and I would be called. “There’s the girls, there’s a fight!” So I had to go to it, try to break up the fight. Have many, um– Offices [inaudible] the kids who were misbehavin’.
[00:24:05]
But I, you know, it’s– I think that that probably was, uh, one of the– The better jobs that I did. Was in disciplinarian and [inaudible]– of the school. ‘Cause I– I– I think I was very good at it. But I learned– some of the teachers– and out of their rooms– [inaudible, mumbling] I think when we opened the school, there were two, maybe three black teachers. Ah– And the rest were– were white or whatever. But, and it was– they, some of the teachers were complaining, apparently to the principal, about the fact that I was their, uh, coordinator. And I did not have a graduate degree. I didn’t have any guidance, whatever, and several of them had got graduate degrees and, uh, wanted the job. So he told me that, uh– We’ll, “you’ll take two classes in guidance and that will get them off my back.” So I applied to a Queens College to take a couple of classes, and Guidance for School Counseling. And they would not allow me to just take two classes because they were getting ready to change the requirements for the degree. So I had to sign up to take– to get my masters. And take the– the course so that, uh, I could, uh, have the degree and like, at 30 credits rather than the 40 or 50 that they were gonna do. So that’s how I ended up going to graduate school. I had no intention of doing that. So I– I did. I got my degree in Guidance and School Counseling. And, uh, couple of years after that, I was assigned a guidance counselor, uh, at John Stewart. Which is where I eventually retired from at– twenty-seven years old. [mumble] twenty-seven years old– That is not even true. In 1987 I think. ‘97 is when I retired. But I have always been a, since an early child, involved in the church. I started in church– well, my mother of course made us go to Sunday School and to church. And I was, um [pause]
[00:27:02]
Um. At some time during, uh, I wanna say when I was like 13-ish. A gentlemen, who had, uh, was from Greenville came home, uh– He was livin’ in Chicago, but he came home and was livin’ with his sister for a while and he happened to be a musician. And he gave piano lessons to, uh, several people. But, uh, my sister who was two years older than me, was the one that my mother decided to take piano lessons. And, uh, she was going, or at least, my mother was giving her money for it. And turns out that, um, his, his name was Mr. Troy C. Snaps– called him Mr. Troy C. So Mr. Troy C told my mother that, uh, Joanna was not coming to take lessons. And he didn’t know where she was goin’ with money, but she was not coming. So I begged her to let me go. And she did. And so I took piano lessons from him. Uh, for a couple years. And then he moved away. He moved back to Chicago. And I took lessons from another, from a woman that I– but this time I was like in high school and I, and I was involved with everything in school, so I got– I didn’t want to do piano lessons anymore. So I stopped. And, uh– I didn’t, um, do anything else with piano. At all. Until I was livin’ in, we were livin’ in Flushing. And one of my, um, my cousin and anoth– a friend of mine came up to visit. And of course I had to take them shopping at Macy’s and run around the city. Was nice– by then I was very– I had no problem with the city. I loved it. But anyway, I went, uh– We went to, uh, Macy’s. We’re walkin’ around and I had– and we walked by a– the floor, was on the floor for some reason– that had piano, and I said, “I think I’ll buy myself a piano.” So I did. I bought a piano and, uh– I, at the time I was going to, um, church at a family church in, uh, Flushing. And the, uh, minister asked me to, um– If I would help with the, one of the choirs or whatever. So I said “fine,” you know, I would. And I thought helping meant– you know, I’ll– I’ll go in if he, if he needs, uh, assistance or something, you know. Need to play something while he directs.
[00:30:10]
But that wasn’t what happened. I– I went to the rehearsal, and he said, “This is what they’re doing Sunday. This is the, uh, the organist.” I don’t remember his name. And, uh, “This is what they’re doing,” and he left! So I’m sitting there, “Oh God, what am I gonna do with this.” I had to play that Sunday for the choir and it was the minister who, uh, tells the story of me and the– the first day I played for the choir because I was playing and I finished the song, and the choir was still singing, and I was playin’ so fast, I just got finished the song. He thought was very funny and he never let me live that down. Uh, and, ah– But then we, when we moved to, uh, New Jersey, I joined Mount Zion A.M.E. Church. And, uh, I commuted back and forth to– to, uh, Brooklyn until I. Until I retired. And I, when I joined Mount Zion, they’re on Division Street in Mount Zion. And, uh, my first reaction was that, that, uh– Reverend Hildebrand actually was still there. And he– that he was really, really a– a great preacher. Just really, you know, gives really great sermon. But I wasn’t crazy about the music. The music was– The– the choirs at the time, we, uh I thought were not great. But, uh– Anyway I– I– I joined the church and the, uh, Reverend, uh, Hildebrand– well, one Sunday I– I walked into church and I hear this music comin’. That was like out of this world music and I never heard in Mount Zion. I think I maybe had been there a few months. And it turns out that there was a woman named Celeste Harris Jenkins who had been asked by Reverend Hildebrand to come and see if she could do something with one of the– with the senior choir. And she was phenomenal. She really, really was. So of course, you know, now I see that this is a great musician there– that musical director who looks like she might be able to do something with– and then Reverend Hildebrand asked me to, uh, join the choir and, uh, assist her. Because she was only supposed to be there, uh, to work with the choir and try to get them up to some kind of standard that was tolerable. And then she was all– she was gonna leave. But, and so I joined the choir. And, uh, as– as I guess her assistant– which she did not need one of, I promise you– but anyway, she, uh– She ended up staying there, actually. Several years. And built the choir up to the point where we did, uh, an album. It was the first and only album that I know that has ever been done for an outside church. And we did it for, a, um, 150th Anniversary of the church. Uh. So I– I was– I’m singing on one of the– a couple of the songs– lead singer on it. But before the– when I– I went to the first rehearsal. Uh, she said to me, uh, “This is a song that I want you to lead.” So I said, “I’m not a lead, I, I do alto– great alto. But I’m a background singer. But I won’t do lead singer.” She said, “Well, you’re gonna do this one.” “Okay.” She was like that, like 5 feet 2, you know, but very [inaudible].
[00:34:40]
At any rate, uh, that’s the first thing I’ve ever really had to lead a song. And, uh, but she worked with me and, and they do it so I get it. And on the album, I’m doing, I’m leading a couple of songs. But, uh, that was, um, the, uh, as I said, the first and only album they did at Mount Zion Church. And, uh– I stayed with the choir and then, a few years later, I was asked to, uh, work with, uh, the lady, uh– her name is Joelle Hildebrande. Who was, uh, was now a preacher actually. But anyway, she was directing the choir. The youth choir. And, uh, they asked me to assist her. But I– and she had a young man by the name of Doug Miller who was playing– playing piano for her. And, uh, and she was just workin’ with the kids. And they asked me to– if I would work with her and I said I would. And– She stayed for the first rehearsal and then– well, I, [stuttering] actually for a couple of, uh, months I guess. She decided that she could not, uh, could not continue with the choir. So I ended up, uh, being the director of the youth choir. Which uh– and Doug Miller, my dear friend, was the piano– the, uh, organist. And we, uh, had eventually, after a year or so, had the choir that was probably, we must have had maybe, you know, close to thirty kids in the choir.
[00:36:46]
And, uh, they, I– I– I still say that it’s the best youth choir they’ve ever had in that church. And– bar none. Because they were really, really, you know, great kids and great voices. And one year we did, uh, we did a concert [inaudible] day. In the afternoon they had a concert. And they asked us to, as a youth choir, to do a concert for Men’s Day. Which we did. And I decided that we would do– well, I wanted to do an exchange with a, takin’ the kids of the youth choir to Tennessee. It just so happened that the, uh, Knoxville [inaudible] World’s Fair was there. Um. Uh, was gonna be there that summer. So I, um– [pause] Arranged– well, I asked, arranged to take them to Tennessee to my hometown and my home church. And, uh, we performed a concert there. And then took them to the World’s Fair, uh, the next, uh, the next day. And brought’m back to New Jersey. But they– I had the kids all stay at, uh, private homes of people that I knew who had children their age. And, uh, then the adults would stay in a hotel. But the– the kids still are now grown women and– women and men in their 50s I guess. Uh, talk about the trip that– that we took to Tennessee. Was one of the highlights of my stay at Mount Zion. And, uh, well I– I– I didn’t– well, I– I did that work for several years. I have directed, uh, several choirs at Mount Zion.
[00:39:00]
I have also done, um. [tsk] I was president of the Scholarship Committee. For a while I was actually the one to bring them to council that, um– For the move into the new church on, which is on, uh, Hildebrand Way– was Marsh Street at the time. When I went to Mount Zion and they were already in the process of, uh, negotiating the building of the church, and we moved into the church. I was on the three-member Council for the move, along with, uh, Eugene Hildebrand, was the nephew of Reverend Hildebrand. And um– [mumbles] What is his name– I can’t think of his name right now, it will come to me eventually. [cough] Excuse me– Um, anyway, I– I did that, uh, I was on that committee. And, uh, I sang continually with the senior choir until, uh, Mrs. Jenkins left. And then I– I played for the choir. The senior choir plays the Jubilee Choir which is a gospel-type chorus. And, uh, so that was the, I was on the Scholarship Committee. Reverend Hildebrand called me into church one day and said the, uh, they had– they had had some money in a fund, like 100, 700 dollars or something like that, and they wanted to revive the scholarship. Many had asked for people, volunteers to be on the committee, so I agreed to do that. And I was on the committee and– I eventually, um, was President of it for, uh, a while. I– I don’t know, for several years. And– What else– can I take a breathe and think? [laughs] I –
[00:41:23]
Take, take as much time as you’d like to pause if you want. If you want to stop for a glass of water or use the bathroom, that’s totally okay.
Yeah. Okay, I’ma just, uh, yeah, thinkin’ and rememberin’ and then, uh, you know– oh, I forgot this thing! But no, I’m okay. Um. [pause] [mumbling] Um– What was I talking about? [pause] Anyway. The, the choirs– oh, the scholarship committee. I did, uh, several things with the scholarship. We did a, uh– What I call a Breakfast Symposium– one of the things. And I had a, for students, um, like grades. From middle school through high school. Uh, and we had, uh, we had– had them for breakfast and had, uh, different workshops with them. I had a, put together materials for a college information– information about colleges and the scholarship information. And, um, to me, that was from, uh– [pause] Right after I– I, uh, retired. I worked for the Board of Ed of New York for a– a– a short time with another, um, person, co-worker– actually was a former, uh, chairperson of mine. Named Dr. Margulies and I worked on a college manual for high school students. So I took information from that, um, manual and, uh, made a booklet for each of the kids, to, uh, for the like, for the junior high school kids, high school, you know, things that you need to know and things you need to do and kind of go about it as, uh, getting your, uh, applications in in order. And, um, we did that. We did, uh, several newsletters, uh, throughout the year. Uh, with information for the students and the parents. And one of the things that I– I– I did, in addition to, uh, that was I have, I developed or learned that I– I could rewrite, uh, lyrics to songs to fit different, uh, people and different occasions. So I– the song I usually picked was, um, Glory– the tune of “Glory, Glory Hallelujah”. And I would rewrite the words. I– I did actually chose for, uh, Reverend Hildebrand, “Ode to,” “Ode to Henry”. And I have done several. I did, um, one to, uh, that song “Happy”? That, uh. We had done at– when I was at, uh– They have church anniversaries, usually in October every year.
[00:45:00]
And, uh, I would write a couple of tunes. Fun things! Fun kind of songs, I think. And Reverend Hildebrand had what he called, uh, “Who So Ever Will Choir”, which, whenever there was a funeral or something, it would be like, you know, who so ever will come and sing. So I used to write songs for that, um, the choir. Uh. Not for funerals but for, uh, but for the happier occasions. And, uh– They, uh, went over very well and so, you know, anybody who could sing or not sing or whatever, you know. Just, “I need a body up here with a voice.” And, uh, and we would perform the songs. I’ve done, uh, several productions at Mount Zion. Couple that my daughter wrote. We actually did the first, uh, show, in the, uh, Fellowship Hall, which has a stage. Uh, which is, uh– A play that my daughter wrote. And I helped, uh, in the background. At least I was on the committee that, uh, was sponsoring the play. And, uh, done several, uh, Black History Month Programs at the church. I was– and at the school and in Brooklyn, I did the first, uh, Martin Luther King, uh, tribute, uh, show at, at that school and it became an annual affair. We did it every year until I left. And what else have I done? Uh– I also played, uh, I actually played piano for, uh– Um– Several churches in New Jersey, actually, and I’m currently playing for– A church in, um, Saint Paul and A-M-E Church in South Bound Brook, which, uh, obviously we can’t go to. It’s a very small church, has like ten numbers maybe tops and I’ve been thinking maybe we should go but they all as old as I am. Most of them. So– We can’t go out, but we do our little over the phone church on, uh, Sundays so that’s, that’s good. And, let me see, what else– Back to bein’ at Mount Zion, how I ended up [laughing] in the, uh, in the history room. I– Well, I didn’t– the, uh, the history room actually would start at Alice Archibald.
[00:48:02]
Alice [inaudible] Archibald, [inaudible]. Uh– Was a– Started shortly after we moved into the new church. And it was, uh, done by, uh, Mrs. Archibald, who I think was a church historian at one time. And several other ladies in the church who had, uh, so they asked for, um– People [inaudible] to bring whatever materials they had at home, uh, that related to the history of the church. And Ms. Archibald apparently had several boxes full of, uh, documents and things that had belongs to– I can guess been handed down to her from the, uh, great aunt and uncle who raised her. Because there are documents from like 1876. And uh– And where that’s– Uh– So it started then and it had several, um, people there working there. But I think only a couple of’em had been historians. But the last one, uh, that was there– Left and moved– actually she moved away. So there was no one there. But! I’m gonna back up again! Because when Mrs.– When they were, uh– [pause] In the, um, the library, the– the historical library it’s called. I asked Ms. Archibald one time– I don’t know. Maybe a few years after it was open. If I could be on the committee. And she said no, she’s lookin’ for younger people. And I think I may have been, like 40 at the time? [chuckling] I don’t know. But, uh, she wanted– they wanted young people on the committee. They didn’t want any old people on the committee, so she wouldn’t let me be on the committee. I was very insulted. But, uh, ‘cause I’m always, uh, been interested in history. I’m not a historian at all, by any stretch of the imagination. But, uh, she inter–they had several, um, people I think of– But the last one that they had as I said left the church and moved away. So there was, uh, no one there. It’s– it’s– it’s just, um, was there for like, you know, several– a few years. And, uh, Reverend Phillips asked me if I would, uh, work in the– the history– well, they wanted to at least have it open and whatever. So I told him I would, but, you know, I’m not a historian so I, my title is, um, “History Room Coordinator.” Which really means ensemble, because that’s, that’s pretty much all I’m, I’m able to do. I mean, going through the records to– [inaudible] It’s very, very, uh, interesting. To be some– all– all those years and years and years ago.
[00:52:04]
And I have written a couple of, uh. [tsk] Articles, I would say, uh, taken from materials I’ve found in the, uh– [pause] In the, uh– Things. 18, 1876 journal. [inaudible] It’s very interesting. And that brings me to where I am now! I don’t know what else I need to talk about. [pause] So– And– [pause]
Are there specific, um, initiatives or projects that you are managing? In the history room? Or is a part of the archive?
Say that again?
Are there specific projects or initiatives that you are coordinating, um, with reference to the archive?
Ah– I’m– I’m not even sure what, what we’ve been working with. Um– Some students from Rutgers actually, a young lady, uh, Pamela– Can’t think of her last name, uh, had come to me to ask about, uh, Alice Archibald in connection with a book that was going to be published. Uh, the second edition of Scarlet and Black. And, uh, she, uh, you know, came and was getting information about Alice. And– [pause] I realize that we– we need to be more, uh, you know– we don’t have the archives up in– in– in order. And, uh, the pastor wants to have– and the things are not digitized. And we have, had gotten, um, before I was there, a grant of some kind from Middlesex County Cultural and Heritage Association to, uh, for the process of archiving and digitizing. But that did not come to pass. It’s, uh, someone– The– the, uh, person, I think, who got the grants was, uh, digitizing. Was, uh– Let me see, what’d she do– Was in the process I guess of– [stuttering] she had gotten a computer and some other things that were n– I guess necessary.
[Editor’s Note: Follow the attached links to learn more about the Scarlet and Black Digital Archive and Research Center.]
[00:55:08]
And in the process of, uh, doing– The, uh, digitizing or archiving. And, uh, then she moved away. So that didn’t happen. So when I– when we spent maybe three years or so ago. I got together a committee to, uh, go through and get all of the things organized. Because there was like, you know, papers all over the place and nothing was really, uh, in any kind of order. So, uh, I, um. Had, uh, several, several, uh, people I think, maybe four or five that, uh, would come in and, uh, just– just, uh, get stuff on, in some kind of semblance of order. So, uh, we did that and we have several, uh– B– uh, journals that were provided. The first thing I see, you know, in order to stop making cop– uh, copies and takin’ pictures of things, you know. We need to first get them, put them together in some sort of order. So that’s pretty much what we were, we were doing. So that’s why I say, you know, we’re five clerks rather than, uh, anything else. And we did manage to take some, some pictures of some of the documents and scan some of the things, but none of us are really, uh, knew what we were doing. So, uh, when Pamela came, she, uh– Said that, you know, she would help us and, you know. She– She’s workin’ on a PhD. And this was an assignment I guess for the Scarlet and Black book that they did. And, uh, actually there’s a book that’s been published and was supposed to be, uh, presented. They had scheduled a, uh, function of some kind at Rutgers for, uh, comin’ out of the book which I was invited and we were gonna do this big thing at Rutgers and I think it was end of March.
[00:57:55]
But the, uh, Coronavirus thingy. Jumped in there and they had to cancel it. So I don’t know what happened with that second book. But. [cough] Um, prior, uh, to that. They started in January. Uh, Pamela and two other ladies whose names I have written down somewhere but I can’t think of right now. And they came in and they began the process of digitizing. And, uh [pause] Then– We– A librarian came. [pause] Whose also name I can’t remember. And, uh, went through to the sites to see what it was we needed. In order to, uh, get the, uh, papers and all the other, uh, documents in the correct, uh, things to keep them preserved. And was going to write a report and get the, you know, of what we needed and then we were gonna go from there. And then– [inaudible] So that whole thing has stopped. And all the– and I have the, I actually, I’ve been back over there once, uh, since they closed the church down. So you can’t go in there. And I had to go into the [inaudible] history room to pick up a couple of things. And so the– the papers are, you know, still the way we left them. But I don’t know what’s gonna happen with that. You know. So. Very, very, very upset about that part. ‘Cause the one thing I– I really losin’ it, yeah– I decided early on that I was not gonna grow old and sit around and wait to die. I had to have something to do. So I– every day I had to, you know, get up. So then that, uh, workin’ in the history room served that, that great purpose like that. ‘Cause I was about three days a week and work in the history room. And just to give me something to do sometimes. So I didn’t have to sit around. But now we got the virus and I got to sit around. You know. So that’s the story of my life, I think. [pause] So. I don’t know. Anything else you want to know, Dan?
[01:00:56]
Um. Yeah! Barbara, do you have any, um, uh, memories, uh, uh– Anything specific joyful or celebratory memories you might have from any of these points in your life, whether it be from Greenville or it be from school or, sa– uh, from Mount Zion community that you’d like to share?
Joyful?!
[laughs]
[laughs] Uh– I– I– I don’t know, I think, you know, lots of joyful times! I, you know, I think, I’d have to really think back for them! [chuckling, with a smile] For my, you know, all my years growing up is joyful, but I, you know, I don’t remember being, uh, you know, elated about anything! [laughing] I guess I’ve had joy, I don’t know. Uh, you know, I, I’m my most, uh– I guess, being part of the choir that made the– the album was a joyful as, you know. I– I did not talk about, but I do have a child, you know. I did get married and I have a daughter who is, uh– Two sons. I’m livin’ with them, I mean. But that was joyful, happened, uh. A daughter who, you know, extremely talented, a great singer. Plays the piano better than I do, actually. Uh, and then, my two grandsons who are, you know, they’re grown now, they’re 20. They’re great kids. And, you know, joy with them, I`m just– [pause] I dunno– That’s, that’s joyful. What else Dan?
[01:03:03]
Uh, any specific, um, memories that you might want to share about, with your daughter or with your grandkids?
Um, no, well my daughter actually, um– When we moved to New Jersey when she was going into the 9th grade, some– we moved– Actually, when we were livin’ in New York, she had a teacher who, uh– Recognized that she had talent as a singer. And, uh, when she graduated– well, I guess they graduated from 7th grade. She, uh, sang– well they had had her on the stage singing as the class marched in to, uh, to be, to sit down, you know, whatever they do. So, you know, that was joyful. Then when we moved to New Jersey we took her to, um, a gentleman who’s– his name will come to me in a minute. Anyway, I wanted to find out whether or not it was worth the time and effort to pay for her to have, uh, singing lessons. Or piano lessons. And, uh, well actually, I was singin’ for piano and I asked him to listen to her sing and see if, uh, it was worth it to try and pursue it. So he did and he entered her immediately into his “Talented Teens of New Jersey” contest. And she won most talented teen in New Jersey that year. When she was in the 9th grade. That was– and they performed at the, uh, Garden State Arts Center, which was very exciting. And, uh, and she also, uh, did several, um– [pause] Uh– Uh– When she was in the, a show in the, in New York in the, uh, I guess in the Village or something, which, [chuckles] you know. And, uh, I– I can’t even remember the name of the show or whatever but she was in it and, uh, Tommy Jennings who was the, uh, Archibald’s brother– Tonya’s, my daughter’s name is Tonya, said that, uh, she was. After the show she was backstage and somebody came back and said, “There’s a man out here looking for you.” And she goes out and who was there but Tom Jennings! Who had come, you know, he had heard she was in the show so he came to see the show. And Tom Jennings never– didn’t drive ever, he never owned a car, he never drove a car. But he could get anywhere. [inaudible, mumbling]
[01:06:09]
He would get wherever he wanted to be. So he had taken the time to go to New York to see her perform. She thought that was really exciting. And, uh, she did, uh– She was in Europe for a couple of years, uh, on tour in Jesus Christ Superstar and a couple of other things. And yup, she’s really a great singer. And, but my brother said that, you know, she was away when, when Dionne– not Dionne Warwick, um. What was the girl’s name? Dionne Warwick’s niece– Whitney [Houston]! My, my, well my brother’s ex [inaudible], you know, “Tonya’s as good as Whitney, if not better!” But she was in Europe when Whitney became the star. So. She, she, uh, came back because she was missing too many family, uh– I think my father died while she was over there. [pause] Anyway, she came back and– Now they live in Jersey. But, you know– And that’s whatever. She’s– She’s also, she’s a– [tsk] Musical director at a church in Asbury Park. Again, that’s, you know, church is still closed. So we do from home, um, music. Actually, she was doing music for her church and my grandson is recording it. And they, they do– I don’t know, I guess conference, uh, calls or whatever. With church which is what we do in, uh, Bound Brook. But, uh, he– She was recording for her church in, uh, Asbury Park, and my grandson has all this equipment that, you know, he can record with it. And, uh– So she and I’ve done a couple of songs together and we, we use’m at the churches, you know. I use them– she use them for her church, I use them for my church. But that’s, you know, mainly her thing ‘cause she– she’s a great singer. Way, way better than I am. And she’s, uh, and we’ve done a couple of things together– actually this friend, Doug Miller, that was our, um, pianist for my youth choir, uh, has a dance, um, group that he, uh, well, actually it’s his dance crew.
[01:09:09]
And they, uh, do, uh– They’ve done– they did a set or whatever you call it in the North Brunswick Seniors something. And she’s usually his, uh, vocalist, one of, at least one of his vocalists whenever they do these shows. And one year they asked me to sing with them, with her. And we did one together, which that was fun and exciting. But we did a– a gospel song, like, you know. I think we did “Come, Ye Disconsolate” or something like that. That was exciting. But I have to think about exciting things that happened. You know, it’s been a while since– Ask me another question.
Um, part of the goal of the, um, the art installation that we’re creating in Archibald Park is meant to reflect the values that aren’t just embodied by, um, Ms. Archibald but also her community. And I’m– I’m wondering, um, what are those values that are important to you and you believe are important to, to your church?
Oh, God– Well, important to me. Uh, You know. But I’m, I’m kind of like, uh, where, where uh. [inaudible] The, be kind, be good, do whatever you can for others. Serve God. Just say, uh, I don’t have a creed of life. Try to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And that’s, you know. [inaudible] Work hard. Try to– Try to l– leave the world a better place instead of a worse place. But that’s, you know, try to– always– I dunno, I always try to, uh– [tsk] Be– helpful. That’s, that’s kind of, you know. I’d say you, but, whenever I would join anything I would look around to see where, where there was a need? Before I started to do anything. In the church, I wouldn’t just go in and say, “Okay, I can do this, this and this.” If it looked like there was, uh, a piece missing somewhere, I would try to fill that piece. And just, you know. Whatever, you know, I could do. You know. If I saw I could do something I would. I would just, you know, do it. Um. Try to be– As good and nice as I could be. And that’s basically it. For me. [pause] [shuffling]
[01:12:35]
Um, a fundamental piece of the– the work is that it’s also going to be intergenerational, um, connecting, uh, Ms. Archibald’s legacy and her generation with, um, the young kids, uh, at McKinnely? Elementary school? Which is, uh, the, which has the location of the mural in the park right in the backyard and I’m curious if you might want to share a message or, uh, again, a value statement specifically to, um, young children, uh, coming up in this moment?
Oh God, I would really have to think about that. [inaudible] [pause] [shuffling] I– [pause] I don’t have any messages– Let me think on it a minute– [pause]
Take your time.
Um. I’m still, I’m thinking. In a minute– [pause] [inaudible mumbling] Well. [pause] This is hard. I only, you know, I– I tell the, my– my grandsons and my daughter is that, just– the only thing that is required that I would ask is that you do your best. Whatever the best is that you can do. And if– if– if like. Not required that you climb– you might not be able to– I want to back up again. That you always try for the stars. And even if you miss, well, you try for the moon, and if you miss you up there with the stars. That’s– however hard you have to work to do whatever it is you need to do, you do that. And give it your best shot. Whatever you do. And that’s what I would ask of, of any, any kid, you know. That. That if– work hard, be good. Put your goal in– in front of you and just keep strivin’ until you get there. And never give up. I used to write, um– actually, my– my message to my students when I was a guidance counselor. Is the words “Sticktoitevenif.” That may not be a word. But you have to stick to it. And eventually, it’ll work out. So that’s what I would say. [pause]
Barbara, thank you. Is there any– anything else you want to share, um, before we finish for today?
I– I– I can’t think of anything else.
[laughs]
For there. You know, I’ll probably think of a million things after I hang up the phone! [laughs] But no, I can’t think of anything else.
If– if you do, please just jot them down and, if you want to, I’m happy to do a second phone call.
Oh!
If you think of anything else you’d like to.
Okay. Alright. I will do that.
Cool. Alright. Barbara, thank you so much for your time. I deeply appreciate it.
Oh, thank you for doing this! I– Thank you. [laughs]
[laughs] Of course!
Okay, you take care.
Take care, I’ll be in touch.
Okay. Buh bye.
Bye.
[01:16:51]
[END FIRST RECORDING]
[SECOND RECORDING]
[00:00:00]
Dan, can I hear you? [inaudible]
Sorry, sorry, lost you there for a second– I was just, uh, setting up the, uh, recorder! [laughs]
Okay.
Um, well, I’m doing well. I, uh, I took a– I was able to take a week off with my family–
That’s great!
From work. Which was very much needed. But, uh, as soon as we finished, we came right back to the world of [inaudible]. We sort of lost all of that [laughs], all of [inaudible]
[laughs] I know. This is un– unreal, this time we’re going through.
Yeah.
Just– Have a hard time dealin’ with it myself right now.
[inaudible overlapping]
A friend had passed.
Oh really?
Mhm, yeah.
I’m sorry.
Mhmm– Okay, tell me where you took your baby.
Oh, I was just saying we took our baby for, uh, a protest, first protest. Uh, in New Brunswick about a week ago. Um.
Oh, okay.
[laughs]
[laughs] Wow. How’s he doing?
He’s happy, he’s healthy. He’s um–
Good.
Actually just waking up from a nap right now, so his mom is gonna go grab him while we chat. [chuckles]
Oh, okay! [chuckles] [shuffling]
So you had reached out because you had– You had remembered some things that you wanted to share. Um. What I wanted to offer is, uh, my– my transcriber is still working, I think she’s gonna be done tomorrow with her transcript. But if you want to, rather than– what– whatever is easier for you, but we don’t necessarily need to go back and restate the same things that you’ve already gone through if there are specific things that you noted for yourself that you wanted to make sure were shared.
Mhm.
Um– And if– if not I’m happy to go back to the beginning.
I can’t even remember what I said! [laughs]
[laughs]
[inaudible overlapping] So I– I– [inaudible] I– I would really like to just start over.
Totally.
Or, you know, start over and– and then if you wanna go through and edit whatever, you know.
Yeah.
That would, that would be fine. But, you know. The things that have come up– one, since, um, you know, since we did it the last time. Is I was going through things, I found some– some things that I– I thought I would like to put in there.
That’s perfect.
Uh– Okay. Which hopefully will not take three hours, but.
[laughs]
[laughs]
No problem.
Yup, yup, yup. They, I real–
[inaudible overlapping]
Oh, I’m sorry. Go ahead.
Please, please–
No, no, you know. ‘Cause I’ll ramble on and on until you start so just don’t, don’t let me do that.
[00:03:02]
No, no worries. I– I was just gonna say what we’ll, we’ll start the way we did last time where I’ll just ask you to start from the beginning.
Okay.
Alright, so um– I’m gonna state is, so, uh, this is Dan Swern. Uh, it is 1:39 pm on Friday, June 19th, 2020. I’m here speaking with– If you wouldn’t mind saying your name, please?
Barbara Jean Montgomery Saunders.
Okay, so, uh, Barbara, thank you so much and thank you for, uh, offering to, ah, join me for a second time. Whenever you’re ready, just please start from the beginning.
Thank you, Dan. Appreciate it. I am, uh, the daughter of Monsilla Lawson Montgomery and Ruben Scott Montgomery. My mother is the daughter of Armenta Bridgette Lawson who is the daughter of William Bridgeman who is the son of Delcia, a slave and concubine of her owner, Benjamin Franklin Bridgeman. I was born in– on June 12th, 1938 in Greenville, Tennessee. I just celebrated my 82nd birthday on Friday. I– Greenville’s a very, very small town in the deep south. And it’s located in what’s known as Spring Valley. And from the time that I was born until a few years after I moved away, it remained segregated. The black population lived on one side of the railroad tracks and the white population lived on the other side. There was a school for whites and a school for coloreds. As we were then called. I’m currently livin’ in New Jersey with my daughter and her two sons. Jordan, who will turn 23 on the 19th of July, and David who will turn 21 on August 3rd. And then in the middle of this pandemic and the– Segregation that’s going on in America, being afraid to– every time my grandsons walk out the door, it’s not an easy time right now. And– Taking me back to growing up and my earliest memory is of the one room shack that we lived in. It’s a house that had a bed, a woodstove, a cabinet. Dishes, pots and pans. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. It’s the bare minimum stuff. There’s no running water and no outdoor bathroom. We had what is called a– an outhouse. Um. Um– My, livin’ and there’s my mother as I remember and my oldest sister Joanna, who’s two years older than me.
[00:06:03]
And my brother Chester, who we called Dickey, is two years younger than me. I think I was 4 years old, maybe 5. My father was not there. I’ve been told that he moved to New York after he came home from the war. I didn’t meet my father until– I was in college, uh, yeah. It was, had to be– 19 years old at the time. The shack we lived in was behind the house of a woman, a mother, Brookins, who I believe was the aunt of my father. And I do remember sittin’ in that, on the middle of that kitchen floor, and she would give me a pot that she had cooked rice in and– and of course it always stuck to the pan. So she’d give me the pan. And put like salt and pepper in it, and I would sit there with the spoon and scrape it out and eat it. That’s uh– I– And we, uh, we moved around a lot– a lot a lot. After that, the, uh, shack, we moved into a house on a hill right next to the railroad tracks. And I– I remember my brother Dickey, uh, falling and almost falling down the– the hill on the tracks. Some, somebody– I don’t know who, I can’t remember who it was– got in before he, uh, fell onto the tracks. [pause] And from that house– and that’s the only house [inaudible]. Uh, when I was about 8 or 9 we moved into a house on the– on a street. Floral Street, which is right across the street from the school. And just down the street from our church. And that one had a living room, bedroom, kitchen. Sink. A wood stove. It had running water but we did not have an inside toilet. Um– Going– one of the things I remember about starting school– going to school, early years, my– First grade teacher Ms. Grace used to give me everything I’ve– wrote back and she’d write “messy” all over. Uh. I began to think I wasn’t too smart ‘cause I couldn’t color within the lines. But I loved school. I loved reading. I would spend hours memorizing stories from school books, children’s books and the Bible. Whatever I could get my hands on, I would read.
[00:09:04]
And I then did realize that I could do well in school if I studied hard. And, and, and kept focus so I studied and I studied and I read and I read and I memorized. And during, uh, summer vacation, my mother would send me to stay with her sister. Uh, her name was Aunt May. And Aunt May lived in the mountains up– Uh, far away, I, I don’t know. Maybe, over 100 miles away. I don’t know how I got there, but, uh, it was in a town called Pikeville. And that was even smaller than– than, uh, Greenville. And I remember, uh, they were small farm. They raised hawks and chickens. Their house had several rooms. And I’ve been told that her husband, Uncle Rob, would build a room every time they had another child. And they had six children, so it was a rambling house with like, hodgepodge of rooms all over it. But they had no running water or bathroom. They had a– it was a big barrel that they kept in the backyard. To catch rain. And that’s what they would use for washing clothes and bathing, etcetera, etcetera. But they had to get water– there was a spring further up the mountain where we would go and I’d get water from– from the springs for drinkin’. And I loved my summers there. Because her children were all teenagers. And I was considered the baby, so they pampered me and I– usually not there with my brother and sister, so I– I really had it. I remember they were very happy when I was down, down in the mountains. And I was, uh– In 5th grade when, uh, the town decided to dem– demolish the old school building. Um. Did I tell you that it was a school for segregated– a black school and a white school. Uh, and the– the black school, uh, they were tearing it down and building a new one. And we had to– we attended classes for a couple years in the basement of one of the local churches. And then the new school was supposed to be separate but equal. It– but it– it was separate but it certainly wasn’t equal. It was, uh, equipped with used books from the white school, like after a couple of years, they finished their books and we– we got them. And, uh, some of the furniture and desks were like old things that were passed down from– from the white school.
[00:12:10]
But the, uh, when they opened the school in 1960, I think, there– it was a school for grades 1 through, 1 through 12. And there were fifty students in the entire school. I– I was in 8th grade when we moved into the new school. It was really, really exciting because the school had a gym and we had teams. And it was– Important for me too because I could– it was a– a gentleman who had, uh, moved away from Greenville and was livin’ in Chicago, but for some reason he came back home. And, uh, he– got very involved with the young people in the church. He started a, uh, youth choir– of course I was very happy to be part of the youth choir ‘cause I love to sing. And, uh, he gave piano lessons. And I– ‘cause I was not the first one in my family to be given the opportunity to take the piano lessons. My– my older sister Joanna– my mother couldn’t pay for both of us, so she– Joanna got to go. And after a couple of months or maybe a few weeks, Mr. Troy C. told my mother that Joanna was not coming. So I don’t know what she was doin’ with the money, but she was not going. So I begged her to let me go. And take piano lessons. Which she did. And that was really very, very exciting time for me. I had, um, one of my aunts who is above– my father’s sister, had a piano in her house that she would show to me and my sister and tell us that, um, it was our piano. That her mother had told her that, you know, it should go to us after she died and she had died, like, shortly after I was born I think. And, uh, yeah, it was our piano, however! We couldn’t touch it and we couldn’t move it out of her house. So we knew we had a piano somewhere, but for all the good it did us. So I had– I practiced, uh, at the church. And I– I loved Mr. Troy C. He was really a very, very nice man. A great teacher. But he only stayed a couple of years in Greenville, and then he moved back to Detroi– Chicago.
[00:15:03]
So I gave up piano– well, actually, I took lessons again from a– another– a white woman in the town. But she was all doin’ classical music and I had to learn that and I didn’t want to be bothered learning classical music at the time. ‘Cause I was very, very involved in everything that was going on at the school– I was in high school by then. And I was in the basketball team, the glee club, the drama club, cheerleaders, any organization that they had, uh, uh, extra curricular activity, I was involved in. And when I was in 11th grade, uh, white school got– [mumbling] Wait, back up. When I was in 11th grade– The white school gave us– Old, used typewriters. I guess they must have gotten new typewriters for the, uh, for the white school. And, uh, the English teachers– our English teacher, Ms. Dottie, had no idea what a typewriter was or how to use– was our teacher. So my classmate and I taught each other how to type. We– and we both became very good at it, actually. Throughout my years in high school, had another friend, a classmate, and I who were in competition with each other, getting the highest grades, were trying to see who could get to be the valedictorian of our class, and we were really, really running neck and neck. And– Now her family, halfway– I think halfway through our junior year, moved, uh, to Florida. And I was really sad that she left town, but I was excited because no one else in the class was even close to me. So I was gonna be the valedictorian. So I– However, not withstanding, there happened to be a boy named Harvey Rogers who I’ve never forgiven. [chuckles] But he was two grades behind, uh, us. But he happened to be a genius. Had a photographic memory. And the teachers didn’t know what to do with him. So they kept skipping him grades. Until he skipped right into my class. And of course he was the valedictorian and I had to settle for salutatorian. I– I graduated from high school in 1956. And I planned to join the air force because I knew my mother couldn’t afford to send me to college. So I was gonna go to the air force and come out and then start college. But I was only 17.
[00:18:13]
And I– my mother refused to sign the papers. So I just moved over to the next town where I had a cousin, um, that I could stay with and got a job workin’ in a dress shop. And about– in the beginning of August, I got a call from my mother, or she said was that she wanted me to come home because she had something she wanted me to do. And when I got there I discovered that she and two of my teachers had spoken to a rich white woman in town who made yearly donations to, uh, Morristown College, which was supported by I think the Episcopal Church or something. And it was located, it’s like, let’s see, few miles, thirty miles away from my home. And they had asked her if she would make donations in my name. So I could go to that school which I hadn’t even applied to. And, uh, she wanted to meet me. So, uh, now, this was like three weeks before school was supposed to start. And, uh, I met with her and she agreed that, you know, she would send the money in my name. And, uh, I went to Morristown and they tested me and they admitted me so I started school there, uh, a couple weeks later. And I– I loved– I loved the– the experience at Morristown. ‘Cause I was livin’ on campus and it was the first time livin’ in a place that had an indoor bathroom. So I was really excited about that. And there– there were separate dorms. There’s a dorm for girls and a dorm for boys and in between the two, there’s the cafeteria. So we had– of course, we had to be in the dorm by dusk. Whatever time that. We had to be in the dorms, at least the girls did, by dusk. But there was a walkway between the, uh– The– that– the dorm and the cafeteria so we didn’t’ have to go outside to get to the cafeteria. We could not be in at– at dusk gotta be in there. And I– I real– I truly enjoyed, uh, Morristown.
[Editor’s Note: In 1944, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the Serviceman's Readjustment Act, commonly referred to as the G.I. Bill. The G.I. Bill, ("General Infantry" Bill) took several steps to insure that veterans returning from war would be able to successfully re-enter their communities. Some of the provisions of the Bill include: educational benefits for those who wish to obtain collegiate degrees, additional funding for veterans' hospitals, employment and counseling services, and housing benefits.]
[00:20:58]
Made some really good friends, and I did fairly well there. And I graduated in– 1958. And, uh, the Dean, Registrar– while I was a student there, I was working part-time in the Dean Registrar’s Office. And when I graduated I was given a job full time as the secretary to the Dean Registrar. And, uh, Dean Edwards was his name, really, really a nice man. I liked him a lot. I liked working there. And I thought I’m, now I’m set for life. However, the uh– He went on vacation a couple of weeks after I started and while he was away, the President of the school called me in and told me that I could not work there because I was, had been– I was dating a student that was coming back in September and it wouldn’t be proper for a staff member to be dating a student. So he terminated me. And so I– back home I went. [sigh] And the– I had, uh, applied to Delaware State College before I graduated from Morristown. And they had accepted me, but I had no intention of going there because now I was working. But since I’m not working anymore! Obviously I’m going to Delaware State. So I did, uh, I went to Delaware State. And I got to Delaware– of course got to Delaware State and it was a farm back then. It was all black school. It’s– it’s now Dell State University– I think they changed it to that. And there are white students. There may have been a white student or two when I was there, but they commuted. It was the campus– everybody livin’ on campus was all black. Teachers were all black. And, uh, as I said there was a farm and– They, I remember one time it was a bask– a baseball game and the cows got out. So they’re runnin’ across the field. Anyway, it was a funny aside. I mean, [chuckles] I was there on a work-study program. And the, uh, secretary to the Dean Registrar, uh, was going out on maternity leave. So my job there was as Secretary to the Dean Registrar. And I– I enjoyed Delaware State a lot. And we had– yeah, it was a good school, I thought. And, uh, it was like, you know, like a family back– we knew– everybody knew everybody else on the campus in it–
[00:24:05]
That– that too was, uh, had separate dorms for girls and boys. And the girls had to be in at dusk. And we couldn’t leave, uh, the campus. Uh. The, uh, boys, of course, could come and go as they pleased. They didn’t have to be in the dorm at any particular time. ‘Cause we got the– the girls would, uh, get a, uh– On Saturdays they would take the girls on the bus into town just in case we wanted to buy anything. But it was very, uh, you know. As I said. Girls couldn’t leave campus. But none the less, it was a great time for me. And I was, uh, you know, as I said, I worked for the Dean Registrar. And I couldn’t understand why all the boys were comin’ at– Like being, being really nice to me and [stuttering] I know I didn’t leave Tennessee and become this vamp, beautiful person that, you know, all the boys wanted. But then I discovered it was because I, uh, had access to all the tests! ‘Cause that was put in all the records. So they, I wasn’t givin’ them that information, so that, that kind of backed off for a minute. But I– I– I– I, um. I graduated from Delaware State with a degree in business education. And– I got a job as a– at the E.I. Duponte De Moure–Duponte De Le Moires Experimental Station. At Wilmington. I was the first black person to, uh– Work in an off– as an office person in the, uh, at that facility. At first they put me in the Secretarial Pool. And I was the only one there with a college degree. They all– all the other people were white with high school degrees and high school diplomas. And they weren’t very nice to me. But I had been told before I went in that I was going to be the first and that I could expect them not to be very happy about it. But I was only in the Secretarial Pool for about a month. And then I was assigned to work in, uh, as Secretary to the Head of, uh, one of the departments. And, uh, so I, uh, oh God– Where was I? [inaudible] Uh–
[00:26:58]
And after Delaware State– [pause] I– [pause] [chuckles] [inaudible] After, uh, Experimental Station, it was during the time where I was, uh, in Delaware and working at the Experimental Station, I got married to, uh, Dick Saunders, we called him. And we were– and had a daughter, my daughter Tanya. And we lived there, I guess a couple’a years. And, uh, my husband got– he also worked for Duponte. And he got transferred to, uh– Well, he didn’t get transferred, he got a new job working for Eastman Kodak. In Rochester, New York. So we moved to Rochester. And I decided to apply for a teaching position. And was hired at, uh, Charlotte High School. Hello, are you still there? I–[chuckles] Of course you’re still there. Uh. I got a job workin’–
[inaudible overlapping]
Okay. I had working at, uh, Charlotte High School which was an all white school. And uh– Had– I was one of two black teachers there. I was– that was really, uh, when I learned how to teach, when on [chuckling] my first teaching job because the department chair was very, very, uh, helpful and he would meet with me every morning before class. And, uh, every afternoon after class, so. And he’d go over my lesson plans and then he would, uh, help me through whatever I needed to do. Uh, at the end of the day, gave me suggestions. But they wouldn’t let me teach shorthand! Because I had a Southern accent and they were afraid that– they felt that the kids would have trouble, uh, living– understanding me. So I quick got rid of my Southern accent. So that I could, uh, at least teach shorthand. Now I– then my, uh, husband was sent to New York for [computer starting up sound] the New York World’s Fair as the representative of, uh, Kodak, uh, I guess the booth, whatever they had. There, there was a booth there. And he was sent to New York for– for that purpose. And after that, he came back and they transferred him there, back to New York as a district manager– one of there, uh, in– in one of the areas around Manhattan.
[00:30:11]
And so we moved our little family back to, uh, well, not back to, but to– to New York. We, uh, moved to Flushing. And I started working for my first job in New York, was at, um. Okay, Clairmont Vocational High School in Brooklyn. Which, uh, and I was afraid to drive so I had to take the train. And it was like, uh– An hour and a half ‘cause I had to go into Manhattan and transfer and then go to Brooklyn and, uh, I was, but I was afraid to drive. I was afraid to ride the subway, too, but it was the only way I could get to work ‘cause I wasn’t gonna walk! But anyway. [chuckles] The, uh. At that high school I– [huff] Well, my first day there– well, there was an elevator in the school back in– in those days. And it was run by, uh, oper– an elevator operator. So I go to the elevator and ring the bell. And the door opens and this lady– this black lady was the elevator operator. And she slammed the door and went back upstairs. So I rang it again! And she came down and she said, “This is for students only!” Well, fortunately, I, um– Unfortunately for me at the time, yeah, I looked way younger than I was. So she thought I was a student and wouldn’t let me get on the elevator. So I had to go up, up stairs, three floors, to the department chairperson and ask– to ask her to come with me to the elevator so that the lady would, uh, let me ride the elevator the next time. So that was a big thing. She laughed about that every time I saw her after that, the elevator operator– I can’t remember her name. But, it was a big joke for her, that she wouldn’t let me get on the elevator. I didn’t think it was so funny. But. What can I tell you? But anyway I– I was only at that school for a year. And, uh– I got a job at, ah, Benjamin Cardozo High School in, um, in Queens. Which was very close, well, closer to my– my home. In Flushing. And I was working, uh, I was able to teach shorthand and [inaudible] by now. I had gotten rid of my Southern accent for the most part.
[00:33:06]
And I worked there for a year. And I loved that job. But I– Near the end of the school year, the chairman called me in the office and said, uh, that the– I was going to not be able to teach there the following year because someone was being transferred in from another school who was the wife of a principal of someplace. I, I don’t even know. But they lived on Long Island and she wanted to be closer to her home. And so that was gonna put me out of a job. And while I was there, the phone rang and he was talkin’ and he said, “I’m lookin’ at one right now!” And he got off the phone and he said, “They’re opening up a new school in Brooklyn and they’re looking for teachers. So I think you should go and, uh, apply.” So I, you know, crying and crying, “I don’t wanna go, I don’t wanna go, please!” But, you know, he said, “Well, you don’t have a job here so you best go on down there and check it out.” So I did. And that was in– 1969 and I was chosen, uh, to be among the group of teachers and administrators that opened up John Dewey High School, which is an experimental magnet school. In Brooklyn. It was the first– Educational-optional school in– in New York City. And in my twenty-seven years at John Dewey, I was the Business Ed. teacher. And the first year they asked me to be the Girl’s Coordinator which is, uh, short for being disciplinarian, crisis interventionist. And in, uh– In 1970–and, uh, back up. I was the Dean, the Girl’s Dean, which they called Student Coordinator. And some of the teachers in– at Dewey I was one of– I think there were three black, uh, teachers there. But it’s mostly white. They– I had, uh, of the– Um– One of the assistant principals came up to me in my, uh, classroom, and said, “Your principal wants you to apply for the, uh, Girl’s Coordinator job.” And I said, “I don’t want to apply for that job, I want to do something else.” Uh, and he said, “Well, you gon– you have to apply for it ‘cause he’s not gonna give you anything else.” So I did and– Turned out to be not, not a bad, uh, move for me. I was– I think I was very good at that.
[00:36:11]
But, uh. Some of the other teachers, the white teachers, were not happy with the fact that I was, uh, doing that job and did not have any guidance courses. So the principal said, “Alright, look, you go to school, you take a couple courses in guidance and then that will get them off my back.” So I said, “Okay!” And, uh, I did. I applied to Queens College to take, uh, couple of courses but I was told you can’t just take a couple of courses, you gotta do the whole degree 'cause we’re gonna be changing the requirements later. And I– I guess in a couple of years. So that’s how I ended up getting a Master’s degree, which was never in my plan. I thought I was gonna stop before with my regular, uh, degree from Delaware State. But anyway! I got the, uh, the degree in Guidance and School Counseling, and was then assigned, uh, to this position of Guidance Counselor at John Dewey. Uh. And that’s what I was doin’ when I was, uh, when I retired. I was the first faculty advisor to the African American Club. And I directed the first John Dewey Gospel Chorus that was organized there. I organized and directed, first Martin Luther King Jr. Tribute. And we did one every year thereafter. And I spearheaded, uh, fundraising drive for The Children of the Afra and, uh, other things. And I was, uh, lookin’ through some papers, tryin’ to think about, you know, my life and things that I have done. And I ran across a letter that, uh, I wrote to Martin Luther King as part of a– a– an assembly program I had, uh, done there. Uh, January 16th 1987. And I wrote this letter to Martin Luther King Jr, uh, at a time when things were not really going well throughout the country. There were lots of things going on. Uh, and, uh, it reminded of that, uh, of the, of the things that are going on today. Uh, with the children, uh, being– Well, the people protesting, etcetera.
[00:39:00]
And I– I was tryin’ to decide if I want to– have part of this letter in this, as part of my life story– And– and I think I do, so I’m gonna read part of it to you if I can find– what’d I do with it? Uh.
“Dear Martin,
Today we had an assembly program at our school to commemorate your birthday. We had speakers and songs and even a dance. It was a very moving program. At the end, I was supposed to give remarks. When I tried to organize my thoughts, I found that I could not get up in front of the audience and say with conviction, ‘Martin’s dream has become a reality.’ It became painfully apparent to me that the cause for which you lived is still a cause, and the dream for which you died is still a dream.”
[Editor’s Note: The letter penned by Ms. Saunders to Martin Luther King Jr. speaks to the continuing legacy of the civil rights activist. One of the faces of the Civil Rights Movement, King's accomplishments include leading the Montgomery Bus Boycott, founding the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and leading non-violent protests against segregation, discrimination, and racism in America. One of his non-violent protests, the March on Washington, featured the speech now commonly referred to as the "I Have a Dream" speech, where he proclaimed, among other hopes, "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." As Ms. Saunders mentions, on April 4, 1968, King was assassinated on the balcony outside his Memphis, Tennessee hotel room. In his memory, Martin Luther King Jr. Day is observed in the U.S. every year on the third Monday of January.]
That’s, uh, only the first paragraph of– of the speech that I– that I gave on that day. And, uh, was thinkin’ today that, you know, it’s– it’s still a dream. But back to my, uh– My narrative about myself, my life. Uh, my family moved to, uh, New Jersey in 1975. And I immediately transferred my church membership from Macedonia A.M.E Church of Flushing to Mount Zion A.M.E Church in New Brunswick. Uh, the, uh, A.M.E. church, I have since learned, was established in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania by Richard Allen, who was a former slave, in 1787. And Mount Zion in New Brunswick was established in 1837, just 38 years before the last slaves in New Jersey were freed in 1865. And it is the oldest African American congregation in Middlesex County. When I joined Mount Zion, the congregation was holding services at the site of the original church, on the grounds, actually, of the original church, uh, which is located on Division Street. And, uh, they were in the process of constructing a new building to be located on the corner of New and Neilson Street. They, uh, there was difficulty, I, I understand. In, uh, acquiring the, uh, site. It was located– the site was, at that time, was located in the– between the– in the middle of the Projects. They had high-rise Projects, and, uh, in that area. And, uh, they were– church was supposed to be, uh, used, uh, as a gathering place, a community, uh, oriented, uh– Room, they had for, uh, large gatherings for– uh, they call it– I forget what they call it.
[00:42:30]
But there’s a– a huge room with a stage and a, the dining, uh, the kitchen and facilities. And, uh, eventually when they– when we moved in, we, uh, had– many events where the children from the Projects that we would, uh, have them in. And, uh, other events that were going on. But when I joined it, again, I said they were on Division Street. And they sold that, the, uh, that property and eventually after seven years, they were able to, uh– Move into the new– [pause] New building. Uh, I have been involved in many, uh– [pause] I’ve served in many, many capacities in Mount Zion Church. I was part of the three member council that organized the move from Division Street to the new location on Morris Street. Morris Street– that’s been renamed, um, Hildebrand Way, actually. Uh, I directed several choirs at, uh, at the, uh, at Mount Zion. I’ve sung in, uh, sev– in one– one of the choirs, the Senior Choir was part of the, uh, choir that made the only record album for, it was the 189th Anniversary Album. The Singing Choir and we have a record album that we did under the direction of Mrs. Lilith Jenkins. But I did, I, uh, after Mrs. Jenkins left, uh, the– the choir, I played for the Senior Choir, directed the Senior Choir, the Jubilee Choir. And, uh, my famous Youth Choir, in 1982, took a trip to, took them to, uh, Knoxville World Fair. And while we were in Tennessee, uh, the choir performed a concert at my home church, uh, Jones Memorial and Resigned Church in Greenville. I– that was a really, really great trip and the kids of– well, the kids, they’re no longer kids anymore, but they talk about it now, about how– what a wonderful time they had on that trip.
[00:45:16]
And in addition to doing all that, is that I also developed and produced several Black History Month productions for Mount Zion. Some of them were written by me and some by my daughter, Tonya, who's an extremely talented writer, singer, player– player of the piano. Uh, I also served as Women’s Day Chairperson twice, uh, at Mount Zion. I taught a sen– uh, a computer class for senior citizens. I’m currently a member of the Scholarship Committee and a past president of the Scholarship Committee. And I am the, uh, Coordinator of the Alice Jennings Archibald– Uh– Libr– His– History Library. And I was asked to do that I think four years ago by, uh, Reverend Phillips, who was the live-in pastor. And I’ve been– I– I said, you know, I’m not a historian. I will only serve as a coordinator. Which really means I’m a file clerk. But I– I really enjoy, uh, working in the History Room. And, uh, the– the, uh– The– [mumbles, inaudible] Uh. In– last year, the, uh, city planted a marker in front of, uh, Mount Zion Church on Hildebrand Way. Uh, it’s on– on the new property but it mentions the– the beginnings of, uh, of the church was, as I said, in– in 1987. And the current pastors are Reverend Golden Carmen who is the senior pastor, and his wife, Reverend Maddie Carmen. The, uh, the– Back to the history library of Alice Archibald. It was, uh– [mumbles, inaudible] Um– Mrs. Archibald and the– the, uh, historical library is– is housed in Mount Zion Church. And, uh, Mrs. Archibald is one of the founding members of– of the history library– she and several other, uh, Mount Zion women
[00:48:13]
Gathered and kept a lot of, all the information they could pertain to the church in their homes. And when the actual, uh, when the new church was built and we moved in, they petitioned for room to put their, uh, things in, and that’s when we got the– the room was filled and, uh, the library, uh, was named, uh, Alice Jennings Archibal Histori– History Library. And it contains, uh, extensive clippings and files and authentic handwritten journals and ledgers and obituaries and– Objects and artifacts from the A.M.E. Church and– Information about, uh,[unclear]. Videos of tapes and of, videos and tapes. Uh, lots of other memorabilia. There is a song book– a hymn book that I’ve dated like 1839 that’s there, and, uh, other, uh– Items that are dated in 1800s. So it’s, uh. And I’ve– I’ve had a– a lot of interest in– well, my, my coworker and I, Sister Christine, uh, have been going through a journal that is dated, uh, back to the beginning of which is like 1870s, 1871. And it contains, uh– Records of– minutes of, uh– The meetings that the, uh, stewards and trust– trustees had, uh, back in the beginning, back in the 1800s. And we’ve run across really interesting information. One of the things that we found though, is that, uh, the name of “Titus”, who is– who Alice Archibald is descended from, we found him in that early book. And there’s a few other, uh, people. And there’s still people at Mount Zion Church who are descendants of this Titus, uh, person. Her sons. Uh, see, I find that very interesting. And I– I really, uh, have a great time reading through things. But we’re currently– well, we were, before the, uh, pandemic, working with some, uh, students, and, uh, workers– well, not workers, the librarians. And a couple other people from, uh, Rutgers Unviersity. To get the, uh, records digitized and– Uh, we have– have previously– there has been a grant, Middlesex, uh, County Historical Associations. Part– part– partially funded the library. But we are, again, we’re working with the, uh, Rut– Rutgers people.
[00:52:02]
And– All of the records are now– well, not all of them, but many of them are sorted and put and they’re out and you can’t get in the church now to, uh, to do anything else with them. So that, that was stopped, like, immediately when they– we had to close down the church. So I’m lookin’ forward to this thing over soon so we can get back to doin’ that. But a lot– one of the things that, you know, we, uh, had talked about I think last time I was on here, uh, was, well– you had asked about things that I enjoy or my happiest times are that I– I think that, you know, my happiest times are when I’m involved in one of my little projects, whatever that project might be. You know, I get very busy doing things. Uh. But. One of the– and I, I really have, um– When I’m with my family, ‘cause I, I have a huge family. And they– there originally were five of us– my mother, uh, had, uh, well, after my– Brother– [inaudible mumbling] When I was like 9 years old, my mother had a– a daughter, Gypsy, my baby sister. And, uh, year after that, my brother Larry. And he was born. So growing up there were, you know, five of in the– in the house. And I don’t remember if I said this earlier but that my mother did not live in– in a house that had a bathroom facilities until the Projects were built in, in Tennessee after I had left. I think they built the projects around–19– uh, 60, 61, something like that. It may be later than that. But, uh, and then we got. But, uh. Fa– shortly after my mother passed away in, uh, 1999, my brother Larry suggested that we siblings get together every year just because he said that, uh, he had two– whenever, like, when many families went, the matriarch or the person that holds the family together passes away, then the, the children don’t, uh, get together. They stay, you know. Away, un– until there’s like a death or whatever. So, uh, he wanted us to get together every year just to have dinner or something. Not to have any special, uh– again, not at anyone else’s house or whatever.
[00:55:09]
And, uh, so we’re– we agreed to do that. And, uh, he lives in, uh, Trenton area. So he– he and I, uh, worked on the first one. And we had, uh, and my brother Dickie who lived in Delaware was also involved. And, uh, we just decided to rent a place or at least go to a restaurant or something so nobody would have to do all the work. And it– it grew. So we did every year, uh, it was my– We would get together, uh, around our mother’s birthday, March 29th. And, uh, it– it grew into a– a big event actually. And when we get all, uh, my brothers and sisters, my nieces, my nephews and great, great grandchildren. But actually we can’t get everybody together but, you know, we– we usually have a– a large group. And I– I really enjoy, like, planning that and working on it and being there with– with my family members. And, uh, but this year, because of the pandemic, we weren’t able to have it. At least not for, around her birthday. So we’re waiting now for this to be over so we can get together and then we call it “Family Gathering” not reunion. And remembering Monty, which is, uh, Monty was short for Montcilla which was my mother’s name. So the pandemic is getting– Beginning to, uh. Well. Shut down everything. And it shut that down too. So I’m lookin’ forward to this being over so we can have our, uh, family gather. And we’ve done it in several places. We’ve– we’ve gone to Maryland, we went to North Carolina one year. Uh, in Delaware– it’s mostly, we have’m between, uh, New Jersey or Delaware, one of– My brothers would, um, host it and unfortunately, we lost our brother and a sister. My younger brother Dickie passed away and my older sister Joanna passed away. So we’re now down to three. Me and Gypsy and Larry. Um– Where to go from here? [pause] Uh– And that’s all I can think of, Dan! Hm– [pause]
[00:58:12]
Um. I have a little bit of time left. Do you want to– no rush, if you want to just– Think, just want to stop and think for a bit. Um. You have me, you can use the time.
Um– I can– [pause] I– I can’t think of anything. I– I might have left out from this– [pause] But I, let’s see– How about if I read the rest of my letter? If you want.
[overlapping] That would be great, thank you.
Okay.
Do you want to– would you mind starting from the beginning so I have it all continued?
Okay. Okay. Dated January 16, 1987.
“Dear Martin,
Today we had an assembly program at our school to commemorate your birthday. We had speakers and songs and even a dance. It was a very moving program. At the end, I was supposed to give remarks. When I tried to organize my thoughts, I found that I could not get up in front of the audience and say with conviction, “Martin’s dream has become a reality.” It became painfully apparent to me that the cause for which you lived is still a cause, and the dream for which you died is still a dream. We have not been able to feed the hungry. We have not been able to fully clothe the naked. We have not been able to put an end to the senseless wars. Nineteen years after your death, we seem to be further away from your dream of freedom and justice for all than we were even then. What went wrong? Is it possible that the people who tell me that there is no justice are right? Could it be that the things you believed in so fervently and died for so painfully are just senseless ideas in my head? I refuse to believe that it is impossible for us to live in an America that is free of injustice and hatred. I refuse to believe that we cannot ensure that our hungry will be fed. I refuse to believe that we cannot teach our children to judge people by the content of their character rather than by the color of the skin. I wish you could be here Dr. King, so that you could speak to Americans again and remind us about the parable of the Good Samaritan. We need to hear your eloquent voice once more tell of your dream of an American that little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers. We need to be reminded as only you can remind us that our destinies are tied together with an invisible chain that is impossible to sever. We need to be told again that we cannot sit idly by in Coney Island and ignore the recent events that occurred in Howard Beach. But most of all, we need to be reminded that we cannot afford to let the actions of a few demented people destroy our faith in humankind. We need to be reminded again that we must meet brute force with soul force in order to break the chains of hatred and violence that permeate this nation. It seems like an impossible task, and it looms before us as the monumental undertaking. But I will remind them of what you did and what you believed. I will remind them that you used massive non-violence to force America to look at itself. I will remind them that you became America’s conscience and forced us to examine our country and our hearts, and that what we found was so painful that you were murdered so that we would not have to look anymore. So we stopped looking at injustice, and the hunger, and the poverty, and the wars continued. And now it is left to our children to pick up the pieces of your broken dream and put it back together again. So I will put out a plea on your behalf to the children: please gather together and find the fragments and pieces of Martin’s dream. Put it back together and make it a reality, so that when we meet again next year, I can say, ‘Look God! Look Martin! John Dewey High School is able to stand up and say with new meaning and conviction, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.’
Yours in Christ,
Barbara M. Saunders.”
[01:03:26]
Was written January 16th, 1987. But it applies equally today. And that’s the end. [pause]
Barbara, thank you. That’s very lovely. Thank you so much for sharing that with me.
Thank you for allowing me to. I, you know, I figure, all we have to do is change the name of Coney Island and– and, uh, Howard Beach. And we’re right back where we– well, not quite back as far as we were, but. Seems like we haven’t made a whole lot of progress. So– For that I am sad.
We, I mean– yes. I– the– the conversations that are happening now– I– I don’t think they’ve happened at this level, at this scale before. So it’s– Hopeful.
Yes.
Very hopeful that there’s going to be some percent of change.
Yes. Yes, yes. Hope– and now you’re, uh, as opposed to then, there– there are black children and the white children are working together. And– and trying to make change. So I– I think that’s great. I– Before it was only, like, that we were not joined by our white brothers and sisters. As– as much as we are now. Hopefully there will be change. Prayerfully, there will be change.
Um, Barbara, I also wanted to ask, since we last spoke, you might have considered someone at a church, you might have known, um, ah– Ms. uh, Mr. And Mrs. Archibald who might be able to, might be interested in sharing their story as well?
I have spoken to a couple of people but who don’t want to do it. But, uh, I was given another name, uh, as matter of fact yesterday, uh, but I haven’t talked to him. So I– I will– I will, you know, get on the phone– well, I would have him contact you, how’s that?
That would be perfect, thank you.
Okay.
[01:05:54]
Alright I– and they’ll probably be more people but, we recently had, uh, death of one of our members. A, uh, very–[inaudible], whatever this is. But, uh, you know. We were sad and we weren’t expecting it, you know. Very, very close friend of mine and, uh, staunch member of the church. So. In, in the middle of tryin’ to process this information, [sniff] uh. But, an– anyway, I will, um, as soon as I get off the phone, make a– another list and I will call’m. And see if they would be willing to, uh, to speak with you. ‘Cause I know there are people there who, uh, probably my age or, and, not quite so old as me. Who, uh, you know, grew up in New Brunswick who, uh, knew her and would have things to say about her. The– the one person that I’m thinking about, this, uh, the person who just died is the sister of her. So. You know, I’m not– I– I don’t think she’s gonna be able to do, but I will, I will talk to, uh, there’s a gentleman by the name of uh– Bob Adams who grew up in, uh, New Brunswick. And who lives in Highland Park. Uh, that might be interested in it. And, you know, there’s a couple of other people who may. So I will– I will get back to you with the names and I will have– ask them if they will, um, be interested and call you. Or send you a, you know, email you or whatever.
That would be perfect, thank you.
Okay.
And, uh, and I didn’t want– I didn’t want to interrupt you during your story but happ– happy birthday, by the way! [laughs]
Say that again?
I didn’t want to interrupt you while you were share– while you were, uh, sharing your story, but I just wanted to say happy birthday.
[laughing] Oh! Thank you! It was really a good day. But my friend who died, died that night. Um, I– [laughs] “Ahh! You done died on my birthday!” And I had just spoken to her on the phone earlier. But, uh, yeah, it– it was a good day! Even though, you know, we’re confined to the house. My daughter, uh, and my grandsons had, uh, Red Lobster delivered to me ‘cause they know I like Red Lobster. So.
[laughs]
We had that and they gave me flowers and they– you know, it was a nice day. [mumbles, inaudible] Do I feel 82? No! [laughs]
[laughs]
I, you know, know where– where all the years went. But if, uh, you know. But it was– it was a good– you know, it’s a good day every time I wake up, so. What can I tell you? That's where I am with that. And thank you.
Of course. Alright. And again, uh, if any– thank you again for connecting with other individuals and if there’s anything else that pops up for you that you feel you want to document and share, I’m more than happy to uh, set up another time to chat!
Okay!
[laughs]
Alright, thank you! I appreciate it. Alright. You take care.
You too, Barbara.
Bye now. [click]
END SECOND RECORDING