Christine Edwards is a social worker at Town Clock who is finishing up her Master’s degree. Her job has helped her own personal growth.
“I realized my goal for her yesterday because we were talking and my goal is for her is to find herself...with Town Clock, we’re assisting you to be ready when you’re ready to be ready. Um, and the only agenda is to keep you moving along. That’s the agenda to keep you moving in whatever way that looks like.”
Annotations
Transcript [2] : “No, let’s talk about you first. And that’s been a challenge to teach them to put themselves first.”
Transcript [3] : “Now it’s you being in control and sometimes control scares people because it’s easier for someone to tell you what to do versus you having to figure it out for yourself.”
Transcript
Interview conducted by Lauren Weinstein
New Brunswick , NJ
November 2019
Transcription by Christina Briskin
Annotations by Destiny Morales
00:00
Um, ok, I’m also going to put my headphones in because I want to see if the levels are good. Ok say something…
Something, sounds good right?
Ok. So the first thing is there is this statement of rights that I will send to you, um, it basically says that co-LAB Arts’s mission as a non profit organization is to engage artists and advocates and communities to create transformative new work and the interviews including any recording, photograph documentation, video documentation, and any materials gathered in relation thereto will be made available to co-LAB arts for research, historians, and the public, um, so you’re the narrator and now I’m going to read you what that means. (laughter) And if you have any questions or things that you object to, like [Redacted 1] didn’t want to use her name, things like that, you can say stuff like that. Um, the narrator and interviewer each hereby permanently donate and assign coLAB Arts all copyright title and interest in the materials. The materials will be used for scholarly and educational programs including, but not limited to use on websites, documentaries, live performances, exhibits, publications, educational programs, electronic reproduction or other purposes that coLAB Art deems appropriate. coLAB Arts grants each narrator and interviewer non-exclusive license to use the materials during their lifetimes. Narrator and interviewer acknowledge that neither will receive any compensation for participation in the interviews, and the narrator will have the opportunity to review and comment on the materials before they’re made available for public use. So that’s kind of the next step. Like, we’ll get a transcript of this and you’ll be able to mark it up in whatever way you want to. But really I’m just going to be asking you questions both about your background and about your work here, so it’s really just kind of to fill out what I’ve already gained. Learned.
Learned.
Learned is the word. Um, coLAB Arts agrees to take reasonable steps to honor any restrictions requested by the narrator or interviewer, however coLAB Arts may not hold up any restriction to either freedom of information requests, a subpoena, or a legal requirement with respect to the materials. So, and then we would be signing this. So are you signing this?
Once you send it, I will sign it and send it back.
Ok, that sounds good. I’ll send you that. Ok, um, so sounds good. Thanks for doing this. How much time do you have right now?
I have a good hour or more.
Ok, that sounds good.
Yeah.
Um, ok, so we’ll do some questions about you know, your background and then some questions about your work at Town Clock and then some more specific questions about the residents so I can get your perspective on stuff.
Ok.
Alright, so tell me about your childhood. Where were you born? (laughter)
Um, Brooklyn, New York, I was born in Brooklyn. Saint John’s Hospital, now called Interfaith Hospital in what part of Brooklyn is that? It’s like the borderline of Crown Heights and Bed-Stuy. Um, to poor parents, basically. My mother was working when I was born, but after me, she was on, she had child number three and she stopped working. I was second child to my mom, third child to my father, he had been previously married. Um, yeah, my childhood? I don’t know where to start or end or begin, it was not, it had its good moments but a lot of bad moments. And though I grew up in a very religious, Christian home, my father was a pastor, there were many things that occurred in my home that you would not think would occur in a Christian home where the head of the household is the head of a congregation. So um, I had seen a lot of traumatic things, experienced a lot of traumatic things, um, I was abused by my mother, but then as I got older, I understood it more so I understood that I was her outlet, um, I don’t know, there is so much stuff that happened in my childhood (laughter), I don’t even know if I want to go digging in that. It’s a lot of ugly stuff. There’s a lot of good, I have four brothers, um, how many sisters? One, two, three, four sisters, I grew up in a very large home, neither parent worked, my father was on disability, we were on food stamps, we were on welfare, didn’t have much of anything, um, but the one thing that I can say that I learned was my father definitely instilled in us was education and to do exceedingly well in school. That was like the major priority, so I guess I kind of did take that with me because now I am pursuing a Masters and everything else that I’m doing.
I know. (laughter)
So he kind of instilled that, the education factor. Really getting your education and that being your route to getting where you want to be and who you want to be and your place in life almost. So, yeah, that’s the gist of it.
6:42
So at what point did you decide to go for like social work, have you always known you wanted to help people, or how did that…
Um yeah, even as a child I wanted to be a doctor, um, but I even went to like, in New York there’s a health professions high school called Clara Barton. I went there for high school, I did medical assisting while I was in high school, um, I left high school, went straight into nursing into college, but I realized it wasn’t really what I wanted to do. I had no desire to work in the hospital, no desire to be around blood, death, any of those things. I’m just, I’m a person who takes (unintelligible) own energy and I just didn’t want to be around death, so I didn’t want to be in the hospital. So I kind of didn’t do too well and I didn’t get to go to school where I wanted to. I was living with my father at the time and I didn’t get to make my own decisions, so I did a lot of learning, is the best way I can say it...for a few years. I had my son in my early twenties…
Wait, can I just um…
Yeah go ahead…
You said, I didn’t get to make my own decisions, what do you mean?
I wanted to go away to school and my father opted against me doing that. So I kind of didn’t even fight, just went to the community school and didn’t do so well and it had to do with my head wasn’t in it, like I really didn’t want to really be in the school, yet again I wasn’t focused. I had no one mentoring me, I had no one to look up to. I was figuring it all out on my own. I made a lot of mistakes for a long time, um, had my first child in my twenties, in and out of school, had jobs, went to beauty school, finished that, worked as a beautician for a while. Also worked as a home health aid for a few years, had my daughter and then I realized that I needed to plant my feet into something because now I have two children that I need to set an example for, so having my daughter really set me on a path where I had to be very specific and strategic about what I was doing and that was when, before she was even one I went back to school to complete my bachelor’s.
[ Annotation 1 ]
9:17
And how old were you at this point?
I was, I had my daughter when I was about 28, so I was about 29, I had my son about 22, 22ish, and I had my daughter five years later, and yeah by the time she was like walking, I was registering for school, because I knew...it’s one thing to have one child, but it’s a different thing to have two and when you have two you really have to know what you’re doing. You have to have a whole plan. You can’t wing it. Cuz like with one, my family was able to take my son and all of that cuz it was just one child, but with two, like you need to create a family, you need to create a life, you need to create a career, you need to know what the hell you’re doing, so I got serious about my life then and I went back to school, ever since, I completed my associate’s and my bachelor’s in three years and I started working in the field.
You completed your…
I was crazy…
You completed your bachelors in three years with a kid.
I was taking like seventeen, eighteen credits a semester. I was just on it. When I’m on it, I’m on it.
With a little kid. Like a two year old?
Yeah, but her dad was, he was helpful. At the time we were still together and he was very helpful in me doing that so I can say that I was able to balance work, the children and all that because I had a stable home environment that would allow me to do that.
Um, yeah, it makes all the difference right?
Yeah it does.
Uh, so, so, so then when was it that you graduated?
I graduated with my bachelor’s in, I want to say...damn when was that? 2014, 13, 14. I don’t remember cuz I didn’t walk, I just wanted the degree so I could make money. I said, ok I need this paper so I can get more money. That’s how I thought about it, now looking back I’m like, you didn’t celebrate yourself. You were always about the goal and never about the journey and now I look at things much differently, cuz back then it was, I wasted ten years give or take on living life and making mistakes and now I have to catch up. And so it was just really about getting the degree and moving forward to the next thing that’s going to get me to the next thing. So yeah, I finished that around, I think it was around 2013, 14, I don’t remember exactly cuz like I said, I didn’t walk, and I went immediately, I was already working in the field when I graduated, so I just went for higher paying jobs, and everyone was telling me to do my master’s, and I was like, I’m done (laughter), but once I was working in the field, I realized I didn’t know a damn thing, though I went to school all this time, there was still things that I didn’t know and I did not feel comfortable not knowing.
Like what?
Like not knowing how to handle certain situations with clients, or interactions, or just specific ways in which to do things. I felt that there was more for me to learn, and the fact that I didn’t know was not enough for me, so I decided to pursue my master’s, which…
Uh, sorry which what?
Yeah so, I did my master’s, I had to decide what I wanted to do, I had always wanted to do counseling, out of advice of various people, they were telling me to do social work, that counseling was too narrow, so I did social work, it didn’t work out. I did a year in grad school for social work and it didn’t really click. So I took two years and then in 2018, I got extremely serious about going to school and that’s when I applied for Montclair, and I got in and I started immediately after I was accepted. I was accepted in May, I started summer classes in June. So…
So that was two years ago…
Yes.
Ok, so but you had already been hired at Town Clock when you started this program.
Yes, I had already been working at Town Clock and I had already been working at my previous other job since 2015 as well.
13:52
So can you talk about your history, since post getting your bachelor/associate’s degree working in, like you worked in, are you still working in mental health?
Still working in mental health, um, the first job I got after I got my degree, I was working in New York, even though I had recently moved at that time, I still wanted to work in New York, cuz I’m a New Yorker, um, I worked at a transitional housing for like young adults, so they aged out of foster care, but they weren’t technically adults yet, so they were in like this weird space of trying to transition from being a teenager to adulthood and a lot of them were having issues in their homes so they had this transitional housing that was a two year program for them that would transition them. I worked there for about a year. I learned a lot, cuz I made a lot of mistakes there even learning of myself and my own confidence level of being authority to other people. I learned I wasn’t comfortable with it, but I had to become comfortable with it, cuz it was my job, um, and then I started working in New Jersey cuz it was closer and the children started to come to school while here and I started planting my feet where I lived. So I worked out here at a permanent housing organization for homeless mental health. I’ve learned a lot working with all of them having um, mental health diagnoses, but having other co-occurring things going on with it, so some substance abuse, some of them having medical conditions as well, varying ages, varying in trauma, so yeah, I’ve learned a lot about myself and my approach and how to work with this population working there. I found Town Clock because I was looking to leave my full time job and I was applying and um, I honestly, at first, it was not my first choice, I really wanted to go back to working in New York. That didn’t work out, Town Clock did work out, and I knew from the interview that I was supposed to be there, I just didn’t really want to be there, I wanted to be in New York, I was like, “oh this is a good fit” but it’s not what I wanted, I wanted to go back to New York, but once I started working there, it took my about six months to get out of my own way and say, “you know you’re supposed to be here, so just get over it, and get with it.” The moment I met Susan I knew, I said, “oh God, she’s going to call me, she’s going to offer me this job I know it.” Then she called me to offer me the job and I didn’t answer (laughter) but I thought I am supposed to be there. I feel like my presence there is for me and the women. I’ve learned a lot about myself being there, and even some of the trainings I’ve learned that things that I didn’t identify as being traumatic in domestic violence actually was and I felt that maybe I wasn’t a victim, because I fought back so I refused to see myself as a victim, but in fact I have experienced some of the same things that these women have experienced. Um, and I see myself in each and every one of them. Some aspect of my life mimics something they are going through so it makes it a little but easier to understand and be empathetic and then try to teach them to be a bit stronger in navigating through some of these things.
So had you ever worked with domestic violence, that population before this?
No, I’ve had them intermingling with an overall population, so when I worked in New York in the transitional housing I worked with the runaway and homeless youth and they were all females and you know there’s a lot of issues that come along with working with young, they were all younger than 26 years old, they were between the ages of 18 and 23ish, so I’ve run into a lot with that. Some were victims of domestic violence or trafficking or all types of other things, so not specifically the whole population being that, but running into clients who have experienced that and learning how to deal with them differently than the rest of my population. Learning how to speak to them differently than the rest of my population. And even in my full time job, one of my clients was a victim and she was severely traumatized for a very long time. She’s a grown, older, aging woman and still had suffered from severe anxiety for a very long time. So really understanding what that is, how to work around it and help them achieve goals with having this anxiety or these traumas and teaching them to still be successful individuals in life and be on some level of what they may want to be as normal and help them achieve that. So I kind of used some of that and came into it with Town Clock and then with Town Clock I learned to break down my own walls with these women. I had to. I didn’t want to. I did not want to, I was like, “I’m going to be this way, it’s going to be that. We’re not going to get close, I don’t want to,” I don’t do the hugging and all of that, and it’s not that I’m not a warm person, it’s just no. But I couldn’t be that. I had to show myself as more, I had to show who I am and it’s changed me in a way that everyone around me notices.
20:08
Why? Why did you think you had to do that?
Because they, you have to come off as genuine and if you are feeling this in here, they don’t see that. They don’t see what’s in here, they see what they see physically so you have to present as genuine because they’re that. If they want to, it took me a while to hug them because I didn’t want to do that and it wasn’t because I didn’t feel (unintelligible) it was just my restriction on being that level with people. But I realized they needed that and it was funny because some days I needed it to. So, just showing them that I care and sometimes a hug cuz when you withdraw, they’ve been through so much where people have treated them ways and thrown them by the wayside, they need someone to open their arms and just simply if it’s a hug, give them a hug.
Yeah.
And I had to start learning to do that, I had to learn to start smiling more with them, to be more open, laughing and joking with them, um, and not always having to have an agenda, just be there and be present. I had to learn a lot.
So what sets Town Clock apart is that it is long term housing for these women and so it’s not like there’s going to be this turn over. You really learn, you basically, not living with them, but checking in with them over and over. How does that differ than other situations you’ve been or how is it the same?
Um, it’s the same because a lot of the problems are the same. The problems meaning a person with trauma and dealing with themselves and dealing with others, interactions. Some of it’s the same things as far as a living condition is the same. Some of the arguments are the same, it’s several different personalities living with...they’re not just living with ten women. You are living with ten women and each of their personalities. So…
Yeah, yeah.
It’s a situation. And on any given day it can be peaceful or it can be hell, so it’s me learning that and teaching them that too. It’s not just about you and sometimes you gotta take a step back and it can’t just be about, “well this is how I feel.” It’s not always that because the world doesn’t revolve solely around them. And it’s, it’s different because they get to take their time, there’s no rush, there’s no deadline. So they really get to do the work, cuz in a transitional housing, there’s a deadline and there’s agenda and you must meet that by a specific time whether you’re ready or not and with Town Clock, we’re assisting you to be ready when you’re ready to be ready. Um, and the only agenda is to keep you moving along. That’s the agenda to keep you moving in whatever way that looks like. If for six months you just want to lie in the bed and not do a thing, now the conversation is going to be what can we do to be active, what does that look like? What are your goals? Do you want to exercise? Do you want to go to school? What are your aspirations? And it really is sometimes teaching them to think for themselves at this point because when you’ve been in a relationship where someone is dictating, you no longer think for yourself, you don’t even know what you like. Like one of them, asked me about perfume so I said, “what do you like?” “I don’t even know.” “Ok, what does that mean?” “Like I don’t know what I like, I don’t know what is out there for me to like.” So even presenting options. Like some of them have no clue on who they are anymore and helping them to navigate who they are, learning what they like, learning how to create boundaries and the biggest thing is learning how to create boundaries and being comfortable with having those boundaries because they’ve been violated so long, it’s like, “well I’m just going to do for everyone else, make sure everyone else is happy and, um, I don’t matter because I’ve been taught that I really don’t matter.” Really teaching them that they do and that’s the hardest, it’s very hard to teach them to get in check with who they are as a person. What do I like? What do I want to do? I don’t have to do that or I gotta do for everyone. No, let’s talk about you first. And that’s been a challenge to teach them to put themselves first. So it differs, in the transitional there’s a timeline and in the permanent there isn’t one. We can take our time, there the agenda is just for you to move along, but it’s at your pace. It’s not at a pace that we have set, which I think helps them out because it doesn’t make them feel rushed. It doesn’t put any additional pressure, they’re already have pressure on them and it takes them about a year or two just to get out of this, to even understand, or be fully understanding of their trauma. It takes about a year to two!
[ Annotation 2 ]
25:28
Yeah.
And then they can start really working on ok, what’s next cuz right now it’s just, “I’m in a fog and I don’t know how to get out of it, and I don’t even know who, what, when, and how, like...”
Can you be a little more specific, I think it’s fascinating what you’re saying about they don’t, it takes a year to understand what the trauma is. Like, can you be more specific about that? Like what that process could look like, or if there’s any examples…
Like, one of the women, I think it was very emotionally draining for her and it took, and I had to learn to understand that as well because how trauma plays a part on your physical being.
Mm-hmm, it sure does.
Getting up everyday was a task and working through the mental health part of it is a task because even though you’ve been mistreated, you are now transitioning from a life that you know to something unknown and every day is unknown. Now it’s you being in control and sometimes control scares people because it’s easier for someone to tell you what to do versus you having to figure it out for yourself. Um, so I think like with one of them, she, it took about six months for us to even really talk about what she wanted, really talk about going back to school, really talk about, “ok, I want to work.” “What do you want to do?” “I don’t know. I don’t know, I’m just tired. I’m just tired.” And a lot of it was that. And me being ok with that, but then continuing to have the conversation. And me continuing to plant the seed of, “what do you want? What do you want to do with your life? What are your goals, like what are you...how do you see yourself? What have you always envisioned for yourself?” Because sometimes they’re so stuck in the present of where I’m feeling, or even in the past, that they’re not even able to look forward. So it’s really helping them navigate where they are, understanding what they’re feeling and it being ok, and working through that, but allowing them to learn how to work with how they feel and continue to make steps. A lot of the work…
[ Annotation 2 ]
How, so you started working at Town Clock in 2017? Or something like that?
Yeah, 2017. It will be, this month will be three years I’ve been there.
So what were some of the, you know, you’ve said that you’re learning, you know, what were some of the hurdles or like what have been some changes that you’ve made in the way you’ve worked with the residents?
Power struggle. Some of them are more...what is the word? Headstrong than others. And I had to realize that just because I was in a position of authority doesn’t mean I have to always, you know, showcase that. Um, I didn’t need to be an authority, I just need to be there to do my job, which is to help them. And it doesn’t mean that you have to be a dictator to help somebody even though you’re in a role that’s over them. And I had to learn to check my ego and if they challenge me, be ok with them challenging me. Um, it was a real ego, I have to check my ego a lot. And then sometimes being honest about how I felt and checking in with how I felt and then breaking it down about how I felt and then working on where did that come from with them. Cuz sometimes when you’re so involved in how you feel about something, you’re not even able to see how you can actually help this person in this situation. If they’re challenging you, there’s something going on with that. Let’s, let’s navigate that. So learning how to work through my own stuff and calm my own feelings and then be able to see a teachable moment where I can assist them with, even if they’re disrespecting me, navigate that. That was a challenge.
[ Annotation 3 ]
29:53
Yeah, well and plus it’s ten, ten residents? And their kids? Or eight? Yeah. So you are in charge of all of these people, like you’re the point person basically for all these people, and they all have very different needs, and it just must be...it’s a lot. Especially cuz it isn’t your full time job. (laughter) Or is it? Tell me.
I guess I don’t feel that it is. Most people think that it is, I have twenty something clients at my full time job, so it’s not, and I guess because I’ve, I’ve felt like I was placed in a birth order where I was always in charge and always had to oversee, so that was my role. I was the first girl in my mother’s home, so I took care of my brothers and sisters before I even knew about having children. I’ve been, I’ve always been that over-I’ve always been in charge of other people, and don’t really feel like it’s a lot, it’s only ten women so I don’t really see it as that, sometimes just doing all the work sometimes...the only time it becomes a lot is when I need a moment to decompress, but other than that, the day to day, I don’t really feel that it’s a lot. People are like, “how do you do this?” But it’s like, it’s not everyday, it’s not nonstop every single day, it has (unintelligible) so I get breaks in between.
How much like paperwork do you have to do? I’m just wondering, I’m totally curious like administrative, like finding these forms, is that a lot?
It is, we use paperwork to show what we’re doing and also as to for funding, so I have to do reports. I log my sessions, I log my time, I log um, programming, um, whatever workshops we do, who we interact with, all of that has to be logged because we have to one show, what the services we’re giving, and then show our productivity so that we can say we’re worth you giving us more money so we can expand or continue, so the whole it’s...in this field it’s always paperwork because there’s a system of checks and balances and you always have to have back up to show what you’re doing and how you’re doing it, it’s always going to be, so it is what it is, I’m used to it, and it’s a learning process. So with Town Clock we’re still learning what we have to implement as situations arise, so there’s always paperwork, that never goes away.
So I’m curious about that, because it’s such a new thing and a new model that there aren’t that many places like Town Clock and all these women have to kind of live together and what, you’re the programmer, so what do you think is the most important thing that you’ve learned over the last couple years, like what do these women need more than anything?
Um....really they need to be in control. They learn to trust themselves and their decisions, and being ok with making a mistake. Because I think the whole thing is worrying about everyone’s looking at them, or what everyone else feels or what everyone thinks or and not really, and I think that’s something that women period go through: wanting to do everything right, wanting to always appear like they know what they’re doing, even when they have no damn clue, it’s always been about family and everyone outside of yourself, but not yourself. So really kind of reversing that and it being about you first then everybody else including your kids because it can’t be about your kids if you’re not well. If you’re not on your feet and you’re not in top shape, the kids are screwed so you might as well take care of yourself, cuz your kids will be alright cuz they feed off of us anyway. But you know really kind of breaking down what society has taught us as women that family first cannot be family first cuz if I’m on the ground, what’s gonna happen with that family? They’re gonna step over me and keep it moving so I might as well just take care of myself and do what I need to do for me. A lot of them, you know as women and then being in these...being victims it’s a lot of really breaking down how they’ve been trained and how their family has taught them to be as women.
34:54
So how do you teach that? Like are there specific programs that work? Is it just through conversations and helping them make the choice?
Really it’s person centered because a lot of them see things differently, so the only time I generalize is when I see that it is something that is going on with most of them. Like parenting and feeling like they cannot, they are not in control, cuz a lot of them feel guilty cuz they’re victims and their children have experienced some bad things that they are, they allow their children to have more room than they need and they don’t know how to be in control because they are so, they feel so bad about what their kids experienced or the house has been disrupted cuz now they lived in Town Clock instead of the house that they previously had so they deal with their children in guilt and the children come, have these negative behaviors that will only be damaging if not handled. So I do programming according to what I see, what I see as a common theme, what I see as problematic, how I see their children engage, how I see them engage. My day to day sessions are for a reason, because then I know how to move forward and proceed in assisting them. So it really is, my engagements with them is how I choose programming and what I see is an issue. So that is how I did the parenting, because I see a lot of them have a problem with control and understanding what that means when you’re a parent. You’re not taught to be a parent, you know you step into the role, you’re lucky if you have someone who can guide you, and navigate you but then you have to figure out what kind of parent you want to be cuz not all of us wants to be our parents as a parent…
[ Annotation 4 ] [ Annotation 5 ]
Especially with this population, the cycle of violence and repeating it…
Right.
That’s a key thing, like how do you step away from that?
Right.
Um, how did, so just to get a sense of how it works: so your day to day session will be checking in like texting somebody or actually meeting with somebody? How does it…
It depends, it’ll be meeting, sometimes I schedule meetings like when it’s service plan, I schedule those so that I can carve out enough time to actually engage with them, to really discuss what’s been going on with them and how they want to proceed moving forward with goals, and how I can assist them. And sometimes they don’t know so it can be a full conversation about what’s going on right now that they’re uncomfortable with or what they are comfortable with, but they want to be better with, so it’s a full conversation engagement and what I learned works with the service plans is doing assessment because sometimes they say, oh there’s nothing they want to work on. But when you break them into assessment that breaks down different areas in their life, finances, religion, things like that, then you start learning more, and then the questions start arising, “oh are you happy in this?” Opening up their mind to things that they don’t think about because from day to day they might think about four things and there’s so many other aspects of their life other than the day to day.
So how does an assessment work? You’re saying like, would you…
It’s like a questionnaire like asking them, um, so like a sample would be, according to like, how are they on a scale of one to five, how do you feel about your financial situation, um, do you feel that there is need for improvement with your finances um, what would you like to see happen? Um what is your ultimate goal and what do you think needs to happen for you to reach that goal and the same thing as far as like, even with their self care or um, emotional well being because sometimes they don’t think about that. They just think about the, you know, the physical stuff, they don’t think about, well you know, or even religion, cuz one of the questions was something about their spiritual connection. Like some of them don’t go to church and realize that they haven’t been in and that they need that in their lives cuz that’s a system with being centered and stable, those conversations go from anything from finances to spirituality and really breaking them down to start addressing the things that they really want to work on, and how they can work on themselves as a whole and not just, “well I just need a job and everything will be fine.” “No, cuz you gonna still be you in that job, so if there’s other things that’s going on that you’re not addressing, you’re still going to be running into the same problem.” So yeah.
[ Annotation 6 ]
39:30
So what um, yeah, check, check, check, um, yeah the one question, I don’t know if you want to say anything more, but I think one of the most interesting things you said to me early on that I took notes on when they’re not in the role of victims anymore, how do they take control of their lives? Um, what, what are like positive examples that you’ve seen of people taking control, what does that mean, what does that look like?
Um, there have been a lot. There used to be a lot of fighting amongst them over the smallest things and you would not be able to get them to confront without it being extremely explosive. So what I found have been working is really having the conversations with them about how they’re feeling, um, breaking down where it comes from and then addressing how this other person may make them feel and if it’s really the other person or if it’s you. And in allowing them...cuz now they’re in this place where they’re able to have confrontations and it’s not ugly and explosive or a million text messages for two days, amongst everyone to see you fighting all over the feed. I mean when I first started there would be all kinds of disagreements, arguments, fights and things through the text messaging, nonstop, all hours of the day, middle of the night, over the smallest things. And now they’ve learned to communicate amongst themselves without us getting involved. And if we have to get involved, being open to that because in the beginning I could never get them to confront something that was going on between two of them that they didn’t like. They didn’t want to do that. Now, I can get them to do that. We can get them to sit down and confront each other and air out their grievances and it be ok after. And it doesn’t have to turn into World War Three where you’re on that side and I’m on this side and I have my allies and you have yours. They’re able to actually agree to disagree, live peacefully amongst each other, and be supportive of each other even if they have things about each other that they don’t agree with or like. And that has taken all of the two and some years almost three years that I have been here.
Yeah I would assume that there would be specific challenges with um, the whole population being survivors and all having to live together. Like that just seems like a really specific thing and stuff that you’re talking about, about control really come into it. Like are there things within their lives that you feel like, again, what’s helpful and what’s most challenging about this population living together? Survivors living together.
The fact that at any given moment they can explode, and it can be the smallest thing because they are not emotionally regulated. They are not in tune with how they’re feeling, they’re not in tune with how they respond, how the slightest thing can trigger them, they’re not in tune to their triggers, they’re not in tune with themselves.
[ Annotation 7 ]
Can you give me specifics about triggering?
Like an argument about a shirt in a laundry room can spark an argument when it really has nothing to do with that. It may have something to do with how you may personally perceive a person in your own mind cuz a lot of it is their personal perception. “Oh this person doesn’t like me so I don’t want them touching my stuff.” Or, something miniscule like that but then, and I just lost my train of thought (laughter). Um, what’s the question again?
Are there specific things, what is triggering to this, to survivors? Are there…
So I think anything that is uncomfortable. Anything that is uncomfortable. Anytime you question them, if you question what they’re doing, if you question their agenda, if you...any type of confrontation is triggering. And that I had to get comfortable with: confronting them and being ok with myself when they’re not ok with me. Um, what’s also triggering for them is I think any kind of disagreement or, because something so small blows up into a war, but it’s like you don’t always have to agree with someone. It’s ok and you don’t have to turn against-like it doesn’t have to be all of that. Um, but it really boils down to them being emotionally regulated. So, anything can trigger them. Anywhere they feel threatened. And it can be-that varies from person to person, what they deem as being threatened by. Cuz one person may feel threatened by something and the other person is ok with it, so it’s very different person to person. And I think it has a lot to do with, it seems their childhood plays a significant role in what is threatening to them. Cuz a lot of them have childhood trauma. A lot of them. Um, not all, cuz some of them, they’re only incidents of violence were, was in their relationship, but the majority of them, the violence started, or control, or abuse in childhood. So they were already conditioned and so anything that’s threatening to them is, it sets them off. And you don’t always know what it is. Sometimes you may know, and sometimes you have no-you could do something totally to be helpful and it will blow up in your face. So you don’t even know all the time. We learn, um, but then we learn that it’s when it’s like that we really try to be mindful of their feelings in it and not ours. So take our-though it may make no sense to us, it’s not about us, it’s about this person. So if we’re here servicing them, it’s always about being mindful of their feelings. So anything can be triggering.
[ Annotation 7 ]
46:30
Do you have an example that comes to mind about something you tried to do to be helpful and it didn’t work out? It blew up in your face?
Oh, yes (laughter). Several. Um, childcare. I started my, I started doing once a Saturday, once a month, Kids’ Day. Cuz I noticed that the women were all single mothers, they didn’t really have babysitters, they didn’t have time for self care and that was my way of allowing them to have one day a month for self care for a few hours while I entertained their children. Um, that blew up in my face a few years later when a child was upstairs running around, everyone was there, um a child being a child, almost pulling down the bookshelf, didn’t pull down the bookshelf. Didn’t hurt herself. I don’t know how word got back to her and of course that came back to me. That I was not watching her child, that I was not being responsible, that I do not properly watch her kid, that she’s noticed that her child was able to do whatever she wants to do in my care, so I said, “ok, I no longer will do Kids’ Day,” because I don’t want that to be a problem for me or the agency, or it to be a liability thing. So I paused it for a while cuz first I felt, I felt hurt because my whole agenda was to help, but sometimes I have to, after being hurt then I came to the realization that my job is to yes, help the woman, but protect this agency at all costs. So even in being helpful, I need to make sure that I am protecting this agency against anything at any time, even me being helpful can be deemed as something else, it can be taken out of total context and turned into something else. So yeah, there’s numerous incidences where helping and then we get cursed out the next day. If you get one a laptop then the other one didn’t get a laptop, but they get a car, “well you gave this one a laptop,” “but a donor gave you a car.” They all get helped in different ways but always compare that we help one more than the other and I feel like we help each of them when they need us to help them and it’s not all the same cuz they all don’t do the same things and they all don’t need the same things. That always blows up in our face.
Yes, I could totally imagine that, the comparing, and it seems like the thing that you keep coming back to is trust too because their trust has been broken so many times in their lives and it’s like, what’s going to make them feel like they can’t trust in a certain situation, you don’t know what that’s gonna be necessarily and then it’s just building that on multiple levels it seems like.
And confronting them when they feel that we’ve done something wrong. Because a lot of times it’s like, “ok so what part of this is factual?” I understand that’s how you feel and I am not going to um, go against how you feel, cuz they’re your feelings, but let’s break this down. What is the reality of this? What actually heard, is this true? Just, you may feel it, but is it based on truth or something in your head that you may know, cuz some of the times it’s just going back to the easy way of it being someone else’s fault and not taking responsibility for yourself.
Right, right. Um, Christine do you have to go? Cuz it’s an hour now.
No, but I’m sweating like a dog. (laughter)
Ok, tell me when you have to go. Um, ok so um, what do you, what do you consider, I sort of asked this already, what do you consider success? In people’s cases?
When they're able to make their own decisions and be in control of it. And navigate them for themselves, and only seek me out for guidance and not assistance. That’s success. When they can really do it on their own, like I’ve already gone through the steps and you’re able to make these decisions on your own, you’re able to navigate it yourself and you only come to me for, “ok, this is what I’ve done. What is your ideas and how can we perfect it or do better at it or…” That’s success to me because it doesn’t even matter if you win or fail, it’s that you made a decision and you stuck to it, and you saw it through. Regardless of what it (unintelligible)
51:30
Can you give examples of that? And do you want to take a break and get some air?
No, I’m good. If I get up I’m not going to come back to the computer, so I’m going to stay right here.
This is like really important I think, like what you just said I think speaks volumes, ok so, what’s a good example of something…
There’s various ones, so like one is, one of them, the ones who you’re already interviewing. Success for her was being able to effectively communicate her emotions and not be a wreck during and after. That’s success because before she was all over the place, she was erratic, she...any slight discomfort you wasn’t able to get...she was not able to effectively communicate how she felt. And it’s like, but through the process of what she’s going through and this court cases I had to teach her, you’re not always gonna have me or Susan with you, you need to learn to navigate this by yourself, so in order to do that you need to prepare. You need to write out what you want to say, you need to write out all your ideas, purge it on the paper and then go through everything and talk about what[‘s most important. And in doing that, she regained her confidence. And was able to speak for herself and, and you could actually hear her. Cuz before, it’s just emotions being thrown out and you can’t hear anything because she’s being so emotional. Now, she’s able to effectively communicate, stick to her points and say what she needs to say and move on.
In general or specifically you saw this in court?
Specifically in the court case, she was able to do that cuz before she would just have outbursts and it’s...no one...even though you may be, you may have a legitimate reason as to why you’re that way, when you’re in a court of law, no one wants to see that. You either have to make your points and move it along, or sit down and not speak. If you want to be heard, you need to make sure that you have something worth hearing and you have to be very strategic in your, in your movements. So I really had to teach her to be strategic in what she needed to say. You only get a few seconds to say something. What do you want to say?
So you accompanied her to court, uh….
When she had mediation, yes I did. And um, in one incident I did and in that instance, I helped her to make her points even though the mediator was being a slight ass because he was telling her, rushing her through it and I said, “you’re making her nervous. If you want her to get to the point, you need to say it in a way that is more comforting than the way you’re saying it because you’re making her nervous, which is making her ramble.” So I told her, “look, stick to the points that you need to make. You don’t really need to elaborate today.” And so she did. And that was that. And she, and even though she may not have been perfect, what is that? She did it and in the next incident she felt more confident to talk. So it’s really being able to stand up for yourself because I don’t think she ever really was when it came to men. Because you know how it is in this society when it comes to women and men, it’s like well you know, “either you do, do what I want you to do,” or do as you say and, “no one really wants to hear you, but we’ll give you two seconds and make it quick.”
54:54
So, can you talk a little bit more, I’m very interested in this...how society besides Town Clock is working against women. You know, so how, how she was intimidated. Like can you give, do you remember what was said, or just can your paraphrase?
Um...
I won’t quote you.
His demeanor was ok, but he, he appeared to have a set...he didn’t really want to hear a whole story, he just wanted to hear points as to why she didn’t want him to increase his visitation and take her child away or what have you, and she had a whole, we worked on it, a whole list of her points, various points as to why. He didn’t want her to read all of them, he just wanted, one, two, three, give me what you got and it’s not that simple when you’re trying to explain something in regards to your child. But see, a woman, how can we explain why we don’t want you to take our kid in three sentences. That is impossible.
Yeah. How, how many of these court experiences have you had? I’m curious…
That was the first one with that one. And I’m already a firecracker so I didn’t like...I am very much for allowing people to speak in their moments of needing to speak and I know how difficult it was for her to even sit in front of him and have that written um, conversation out. So I made it my business for him to allow her to speak because I know that that was something she would have never done previously because I had to almost do various forms of coercion to get her to speak up for herself. And making her feel that I supported her the entire way, cuz if I didn’t support her in that she would have been like, “Well Christine you saw what he did and you didn’t support me.” I needed to make sure she felt supported cuz the whole entire time I told her, “I’m sitting here right with you, I’ll be with you through this whole thing regardless of what happens.” So I needed to make sure that I did that regardless of if he didn’t like it or not. I didn’t care.
Yeah, yeah, I’m just curious if you see echoes of this in other cases that you’re working on or...how intimidated do you feel, again I’m asking you to generalize but if you have other specific instances...women just feeling totally intimidated by the system, like…
I think it’s when, I think it goes down to when you see things in the media and just how overall women in their families may say, “well this man is not fit” or whatever, but no one listening and then going down to the situation where something happens to the kids where they either end up dead or...I think overall, I mean women are the minority in society. We do not run anything, we’re trying to, we’re more powerful than the men, but actually we’re not. And we’re not...society refuses to put us in that position completely. So it plays in every arena because even in these nonprofit organizations, Town Clock is one of the only ones where the head is not a man, a white man. My full time job, the person who runs it is a white man, but yet, the majority of the workers are women. So you know, that doesn’t add up and a lot of the nonprofit organizations that service the communities are run by white men, but the people who are on the front lines, a majority are women. What sense does that really honestly make? That shows you a lot.
[ Annotation 8 ]
58:47
Even white men and white women, there’s a racial disparity there too.
Right, but then the front lines are mostly minority.
Exactly, um so, I think that’s really interesting about your work with one of the women. Um, let’s see, uh, so just in terms of what would be like successful, what is your end goal for that one that we’re talking about. Obviously it’s not your goal, you’re working with her, but where do you see her going? Like…
I see her moving, being able to move past this portion of her life where she has to fight for her, the position of her child being consistently with her and actually able to focus on herself because every time we get to a point where we start talking about who are you and what do you want to be, something comes up that interjects that. Every single time.
I see too, when I’m trying to do art stuff. I’m not quite there yet. I can’t focus on it and that really does...she could do it, she’s great.
Yes, cuz we got to the point where we were discussing careers and I was like, “ok, what do you want to do?” And she didn’t know and we were playing around with things and I was like, “according to what I see and what you love to do, you need to do something involving art.” And this was well before we even had this project. I said, “because this is who you are. You’re an artistic person, so we need to find something in that realm.” “What can I do?” “Whatever you want to do.”
But it’s so…
(unintelligible)
Yeah and then with that there’s so many, “well I can’t do it,” for this reason or that reason. There’s I was told when I was a kid I wasn’t supposed to do this because somebody told me I wasn’t supposed to do it.
Or monetary reasons, “I need to be able to make money.” So she wanted a career that made money, but I’m like… she wanted to be a dentist. I said, “whose dentist are you going to be because you don’t even care about any of that, so how would that work for you?”
And she’s not an art teacher, she’s an artist…
Yes! (laughter)
She’s not you know….
Exclamation point. (laughter)
She’s an artist. She is a solo, but she’s gotta do it right so it’s like how do you get that person to feel autonomous in a world where they’ve been controlled?
Because you put them in a position where they’re around people where they can see...like in this situation she’s able to see that more in herself because now she’s creating. So you create more situations where that comes out and that's how I do the programming. You create these atmospheres where they get to flourish in those and be with that person.
So what are other examples of somebody with completely different interests that maybe you’re trying to create…
Um, let’s see. What else was it? I could say another one was one returning to the school. Now we, she was working a job that we felt was, though she was working and yes it was bringing in an income, we felt it wasn’t productive for her future because there was no advancement. And it seemed like she was doing a back and forth where it’s two steps ahead, two steps back she wasn’t able to actually make any headway. So we were suggesting that she quit the job and go to school. She didn’t want to.
Can you tell me what kind of job this is? Was it service, or healthcare?
She was working in a daycare center.
Ok, yeah right.
Ok, we get you. We commend that you’re wanting to do all of this, but from our perspective, since you are here, why not maximize this opportunity to return to school since you are fully supported, and then go to work. That way you won’t have to do the see saw and you will be stable and you will consistently be moving forward. At first she was totally against it, but it’s funny how two years later she went to school. So, fate had it where something happened with the job, I don’t even remember, she thought she was getting another job, she quit the job, a whole bunch of crazy variables occurred, but she’s in school. So I’m happy because now I feel that she now has a chance because working in a daycare is one thing, being there all day but not pursuing any real goals of your own is not going to be helpful. And she tried to do online and I felt that that wasn’t for her, but I told her, “you try it out, but when you’ve not been in school for so long, online is for someone who is real steady and consistent and you’ve not been in school so a classroom will help you be in the space and not have to worry about your child or various other things.” So now she’s in school. In her second semester. And I couldn’t be more happy. She couldn’t be more happy. She feels achieved. She feels like she’s actually working on something. I don’t see her often, and I don’t make a big deal about it because I know she’s working on her goals, I know she’s figuring it out for herself and when she calls me now, it’s really to navigate situations and try to think of it in a different way versus the way she usually handles things. Which lets me know that college is working. So...college is not just about the education, it is giving you a broader view of the world. So that was a good, successful situation, because she is working toward that and her goal is to finish school and I say, “do it. If you can handle it, do it.” Access to her was navigating schedules and trying to juggle being a mom and school and all of that so yeah.
65:06
So let’s talk about the other woman that I’m working with, so her story is almost unbelievable…
Yes.
And what do you think, what do you see, what’s your goal for her, what do you feel like is success?
I realized my goal for her yesterday because we were talking and my goal is for her is to find herself. She doesn’t know anything about...like she knows what she thinks and feels about things, but she is not verbal outside of the room with me. She has various pressures. She has her own pressures coming on from her own life being in this traumatic situation and trying to figure things out for herself, but then she has the weight of her family back home calling her constantly for money and she doesn’t work, so she’s navigating her life two ways and then having a conflict about what do I want to do versus what do I need to do to make sure they’re ok. And really, my first goal for her is to say no. I told her the day I hear her say no, I’m gonna have a party because she doesn’t say no. It’s ok, but in your mind you know, why is this person asking me for money when they can go work, but I’m not going to tell them no. She’ll tell them…
[ Annotation 9 ]
I didn’t realize that was a part of it. I thought that her, she had shame about what she went through and she didn’t want to tell them.
It’s various parts. It’s many parts that I’m now learning as I engage and I’m learning to ask the right questions.
Yes. Right.
Yeah.
Cuz when I talked to her yesterday she seemed angry, she felt like she was...she wanted to go to the next step, but she felt like she couldn’t figure out how to get there and I think and...I talked to Susan about it afterwards and she was like, “that’s good. That’s actually progress there.” Feeling like you’re ready for that next step instead of thank you, thank you for being here. But um, it sounds like you’re saying the same thing of how to say no...same deal.
Yeah, cuz we’re working on her paperwork and it’s like, “ok, you want me to assist you. What is your goal?” Because the goal was to go back to school, but now she’s telling me she wants to go back to work and I said, “I remember us saying the goal was for you to return to school, but if someone else is telling you, ‘well you should just get your papers transcribed and then go to work,’ is that what you really want to do, because if that’s what you want to do, that’s what I will assist you with, but I need you to tell me what you want to do.”
Right.
Cuz then I will assist you in that way. But if you don’t know, I’m going to be at a standstill until you can tell me. Cuz I’m working with you, I’m not going to tell you what to do. And that’s, I’m learning to give her that responsibility cuz she was in her entire life, she was always told what to do and I asked her that a few weeks back because I was infuriated with the way she, with the, how naive she was in certain situations and I said, “no it has to be deeper than that.” It has to come from childhood, so I asked her what was her childhood like and she’s the oldest girl from her mother, and she didn’t choose a lot of things. She didn’t choose to be a nurse, they told her to be a nurse, that’s what she went and did. She didn’t want to be married. Her brother chose her husband for her. She was in an arranged marriage, so there was many things that happened in her life that she did not get to choose, so it explains everything right now as to why she’s…
She’s expecting for there to be some system that somehow takes care of her and she has actually, crazily fallen into a system like that.
Right, but she has to navigate that system.
Right, but she needs to work into it and…
Yes.
And it’s so...yeah. I’ve never, ever been around anybody who like didn’t know what a mechanical pencil was, you know, like there’s just a level of not knowing the way things work in America which is um, which I was just, I took for granted, you know?
Yeah.
69:48
Um, it’s...so that, that’s really interesting that you say that.
And she took care of her family before she even came here. I didn’t know that. She said that she used to work as a nurse, and she would be taking care of her...I said, “your parents is one thing, but your siblings…” like her brother is married, her brother’s wife is asking for money, this one, is brother is asking for money, that one is asking for money, all these grown folks, and in America, you would be like, “go and get a job and stop asking me.” But…
Right.
She didn’t...yesterday she said something to me, she said, “I didn’t even realize what was going on until today when we had the conversation.” She didn’t realize the position she was placed in until we started discussing it yesterday.
That’s amazing.
And outside looking in, and not being in Ghana and not understanding that you were being used, cuz I asked her, “did you feel like you were being used? Do you feel like you were honestly helping or being used?” And she never thought about it in that perspective until we discussed it yesterday. And she was very angry and said, “why is this woman calling me?” And I said, “so when are you going to tell her that? When are you going to tell her to stop calling you?” But she’s worried about people speaking about her in a negative way, how everyone is (unintelligible) There’s all of these ways, there’s all of these weights from other people on her and I’m trying to get her to be strong enough to think for herself and not worry so much about how they feel. Because it’s not coming from her mother, it’s coming from everyone else. Her mother is supportive…
Yeah.
And telling her to take her time, and everything will work out as it should and everyone else is hands out and people who she don’t speak to know her number and are calling for money cuz now you are in America and I know what that is because in other cultures, it’s you go to America, you have money, not understanding how poor people are living here.
Yeah, which is…
You have this conception, this perception that America is the land of the wealthy and it’s like, for what percent?
For who...yeah. Um, yeah, that’s really interesting. I wonder when did you speak to her yesterday?
Um, last night I was helping her um, I was creating the profile to get her documents um, looked over and it was a lot of information that I had to put in about where she worked, where she went to school, it was a lot of information they were asking, so as I was um, Monday had already told her to document these things, so when I came in on Wednesday I would be able to put it in the system. We were just talking about family and I was digging and digging and digging and asking and asking and asking, she was in a place to be in full conversation so I kept asking. She kept talking, I kept asking.
That’s really interesting, cuz earlier that day, we talked you know, and I was, she was angry she was like, “what’s the hold up? I want to do this medical stuff. I’ve been here since November, like I don’t know, I don’t know what to do exactly.” And I don’t, I’m trying to be so polite, I feel so isolated, I feel like I’m on another planet a lot of times, and then I was like, “well here…I don’t know I just felt like when we were drawing together you just opened right up it was great,” and also I just wanted to discuss boundaries with her about the project and what it is she wants to share and what she doesn’t want to share. Which was like basically, she said, “I’ve shared my story, you can share it, but don’t use my name.” And um, so that’s good but I want to keep checking back in and being careful about that. Um, I really want, cuz I don’t want me to be somebody that she’s just saying yes to.
Yes.
Um…
She can do that, she does that all the time.
So that’s important, let’s work on that together if that’s possible, cuz I don’t want her to feel like I’m manipulating her. So, um, but she did draw a picture of her helping a pregnant woman like, and I was like…
A woman who filed for her child, well a pregnant woman, oh, oh, cuz that’s what she wants to do. She wants to do (unintelligible)
Exactly, exactly she drew what she wanted and I don’t think she was drawing the future before you know what I mean? She was talking about the past, but she drew more like she wanted and it came through, it felt sharp, in sharp focus you know? I don’t know, but I thought that was interesting. I actually have been in contact with a bunch of people around here who have doula training. I don’t know if you have that.
You sent me some information in the beginning, but I told her the first step was to, I said, “well you were doing midwifery in your country, but you’re not going to come here and automatically do that. I want you to understand what it means when you come and work here.” And I explained to her the benefits of going to school as well. I said, “because in your country you worked a certain way and you did everything manually, and in this country everything is run by computers and technology and you need to learn how to do that. So, yes I understand while your friend who did the same thing came here and became an LPN, because her agenda was to make money, but your agenda is bigger than hers, so you can’t follow her path so I need you to tell me what you want so I can assist you and guide you.”
75:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cuz she said, “well I don’t know why she did that.” I said, “because that’s what she wanted. But is your agenda to simply make money?” I said, “because I remember when we interviewed you, you had a big agenda and I remember exactly what it was, so I need you to tell me what you want me to help you with, cuz I’m not gonna tell you what to do.”
Yeah, yeah, so, like a couple times I’ve texted her back and forth and one of her main things is feeling useless, this feeling of being useless.
Because her family is making her feel that way. It’s not that she made honestly, it’s the fact that these individuals constantly asking her, “why are you there and not working?” Because they want money from her, so there’s an intention that they have, and they’re working her to get her to move quicker so their agendas can be met.
Wow, yeah.
So it’s pressures of whatever she may have on her own self to do to be productive, because she always wanted to do the schooling, but now she’s talking about going to work, and I said, “but I thought your agenda was to go to school.” And I told her that she could continue to get benefits if she went to school. I said money is not an issue going to school in this country. You will continue to get the benefits and you will get free childcare. You can go to school, you can do your four years and not worry.
Yeah.
So I was trying to let her know that because you know the family back home is kind of down talking her um, “what’s wrong with you? Why you can’t work? Why you lazy? You need to send your child back home so you can work.” Like the whole agenda is to make money to send back home and it’s not even the worrisome of caring about her and her livelihood, it’s, “we need, we need, we need, we need, we need.” And that’s where the frustration I think is piling on from them because she expressed how they speak to her, and two able bodied beings, her brother is doing whatever with his money and the wife is having children, but no one’s really working, but the husband who is working is doing whatever with the funds, but they’re calling her for money. I said, “you don’t have a job!”
No, but is it because she, I wonder if she had so much shame about what happened to her and also now I’m wondering was any...what happened to her, to me there’s a couple gaps here that I don’t really…
I spoke to her about how she didn’t have to come here without her husband. I think she was set up.
Yes, yes, ok.
Because I spoke with her about…
I was wondering who did the setting up because obviously somewhere along the line there was a set up.
I think the brother linked her to a woman who she was going to be staying with here, but I don’t believe he knew who, what she was about behind closed doors, you never really know those things. But the woman she was coming to be with, I think she had already had an agenda and why I feel that is because she coulda came here with her husband and she didn’t know until the day she was leaving. The woman…
She could’ve...they were on some kind, and I’m confused about this lottery. She won some kind of a lottery thing.
Yes she applied for a lottery well, maybe over a year prior to her even coming here. Before she got married and everything.
So then she got it and is that when getting it, that’s when the snakes came in and figured out that she had a free entry into this country and…
She got it, she said when she got married, she added her husband’s name onto all the documents. She found out she was selected, the family made the arrangements. She didn’t make any arrangements. Everything was arranged for her. So once again, having no say. Um, then when coming, on the day leaving, I guess one of the representatives told her, “where’s your husband, I see he’s on the documents, why didn’t you bring him with you?” She didn’t know, but the woman who she’s coming to told her, “oh you can send for him later.” But she coulda came with her husband, but I believe there was an agenda prior that the family didn’t know about.
Didn’t understand it. So this woman knew enough to keep, to isolate her basically. That’s fascinating.
She didn’t have to be here by herself and that’s disheartening. You in a strange place by yourself and you realize you didn’t have to be and then to have all of this happen to you? Her role in her family was that before she came here. How things are now with her family is how it’s always been with her family. Prior to her even applying for the lotto, she said she took care of everyone. She made more money than everyone working as a nurse.
80:30
Right that’s, that, um, occurred to me as well as soon as I met her, she just seemed so...despite all the crazy cultural divide she seemed so capable and sort of clear eyed and she said she went to school, she got um, uh, scholarship, she worked, she did, so that’s really inter-but she was taken advantage of. So interesting. You’re just blowing my mind.
She didn’t even realize she was being taken advantage of until we discussed it…
Because my main question with her is that she didn’t seem to be traumatized in the same way that a lot of the other women I’ve met so far have been, where it’s been systemic and throughout their whole life, it’s cyclical, repeating and repeating. She seemed to be somebody who experienced this one terrible, terrible thing, and then is it easier to rise up out of it, but then there seemed at this point to be these problems.
It still seems to be not a cycle, but a repetition of some form of abuse. But maybe not physical, because if you want to think about it, to be, have all these entities in control of you and you’re not in control of yourself, what is that?
Yeah.
But being so conditioned, being a woman, in her culture, being conditioned that this is what your role is, even though other women are allowed to not be that, she wasn’t allowed to not be that.
Despite that though, her vision is to open up a clinic. Not just anybody envisions opening up a clinic, it’s not just, I’m gonna be an RN, it’s a big vision.
Yes. She says, yesterday she said, “it’s very scary.” And I said, “good because if your goals do not scare you, you’re not dreaming big enough. You need to see things, you need to want something that you can’t even see because it’s so big but you know you want it.” And I said, “that’s gonna drive you. That’s gonna drive you for everything that you want.” So I really, her homework was to be able to next time I speak to her to tell me what she wants. She didn’t even know, she said, “actually I don’t even know.” I said…
It’s interesting cuz I sent her that email that I sent you about from, that woman actually laid out the Rutgers plan in that email, you know obviously there are steps that you guys need to take as well but that’s the Rutgers Nursing plan and I’m about to send her there’s some doulas that I know here. I don’t know if that’s really, that’s not thinking big in the same way.
She has to start somewhere.
But she...exactly, it might be a good person, so right, the person that navigates that knows how to navigate that world for themself reaches out, has a phone call. Um, and…
I think she needs someone in the nursing field to mentor her because she’s asking me and I said to her, “I’m not going to lie to you, I don’t know. I’m learning with you.” But I am looking for someone to assist her who knows the ins and out because I do not and I am assisting her with the best of my ability but she needs someone who knows the ins and outs to assist her so that she can be fully educated and make the best decision for herself cuz right now we’re making decisions off of what we know, and we don’t know a lot.
And that gets, so like if you had unlimited funding, if a gigantic pile of money was to be dumped upon Town Clock, what, how often do you come upon something that is out of your realm of expertise that needs to be addressed like this?
A lot of the times.
Yeah.
Like when it comes to legal matters, I navigate as much as I can and then, try to assist them that way and we do get donors who may give money so that can assist them in situations but in our field, like we need assistance with a lot of legal matters, we need a lot of assistance, a lot of like educational bridges, we know a lot of people yes, but this nursing thing I’m new to.
85:08
Yeah, so, so, legal and education.
Because a lot of them do have a lot of legal stuff especially with their past relationships or children so, on hand legal lawyers.
Yeah if there could be a couple more people working here, that had like where you could give off, what would that be, what would that look like, there’d be a lawyer that worked with you guys or legal services.
Yes we would have a family lawyer who did, who dealt with child services and um maybe like divorces and things like that because a lot of the situations with them that they navigate is through family services, so definitely that because two women are dealing with um, situations with their children and their exes. Um, so that definitely would be something that I would have liked to be a phone call away. Um, and I mean right now we do have clinical services, but maybe more than one because everyone don’t navigate to one person. And maybe one person works best with this four, but then the other person can work best with these three because…
Clinical services are like a therapist?
Yes, cuz right now we already have but I feel like we could...maybe another one just because one approach is not always, doesn’t always suit everyone, the same way I work doesn’t always suit everyone, so they may go to Susan versus me. And I’m ok with that. Um, and what else? The whole staff that’s definitely it: staff, cuz we’re all part time. We do full time work in part time hours. So if we had finances, definitely to increase our staffing so that our reach is bigger and we are able to expand and take on more projects and house more women (laughter) in a perfect world.
Yeah.
So yeah.
That sounds, that sounds good. This actually, I feel like this is about everything I wanted to talk about. Um, and I may, I think this is good. Let me see, anything? Yeah. That was it. Um, if there’s anything more that you want to talk about later on, I probably will have some different follow up questions about things.
No problem.
This was incredibly helpful, really, really interesting. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
We’ll be in touch very soon about things and um, yeah. Thank you
Thank you, that was a day.
You too. Alright bye, bye.
Bye.
I’m stopping re-oh no. End. Stop. Oh.
Recording #2
00:00
So all ten of them have been going through it in their own ways. And I do actively know exactly what is going on with each of them so if that’s something that you wanted, I could give you how they were prior and what’s going on with them post (unintelligible) to see like how this whole quarantine and Covid has altered their lives and you know how it has affected them negatively or even positively.
Right, I was wondering about both cuz in a little way, obviously it’s overall negative, but in a little way it may be buying some of them some time and giving them a chance to like reflect on stuff.
Yeah, a lot of them have been able to, when you’re actively going everyday, you’re able to avoid certain things. Um, but with the whole Covid and having to be quarantined and not being allowed to have guests, you are alone with yourself and your um, neighbors and that has changed the dynamic amongst themselves as well cuz it is far more peaceful. They get along a lot better cuz they only have themselves. We are not allowing any guests to come in the building so it’s changed, it’s changed good, but bad but a lot of good, I can say that with a lot of them. It was like a fork in the road for them and they really had to start looking at things within themselves and pulling strength for themselves cuz we weren’t there to help them all the time. Yes, we were there via phone, but we weren’t physically there so they had to use their resources and use each other, so I mean it really, I say was beneficial for all of them, however it ended up for this to happen cuz they needed it. They needed it to have to be able to figure this out for themselves and use their own strength and use their resources and use all of what we taught them and you know all of that.
So what, can you give me some specifics?
So I can say um, the most problematic is one of them who we’re trying to evict, um, and with us not being there, we saw a lot of activity, no one was allowed in the building but this person continued to have activity coming in the building. We suspect it was like drug use or whatever, um, so that was negative. That’s negatively impacted her and us because we had to um, employ security to make sure no one came in and out because of course majority of them we trusted but you know there’s a handful we didn’t trust to follow the rules so we had to get security. Um, and it was a lot of drama surrounding that. So that’s one bad how it affected negatively. Um, others, in the beginning they were going through depression in the beginning but then I think not having us there to always run to instead of doing it for themselves, they had to do it for themselves, so they had to figure this out for themselves and they had to make decisions for themselves and figure out what was best for them and use all that we’ve taught them: the tools, the resources, the coping strategies themselves to move along because we were not physically there for you to run upstairs and drop it on and have us help you fix it.
What were some of the examples, what are some examples of them having to make decisions?
Um, one of the patients was very depressed at the beginning. Extremely depressed, um, I didn’t know that, um, but that had to do with her medication regimen and going to the doctor. Um, and plus her lack of understanding of what was actually going on cuz here she is in this country, learning how things go, then here comes this virus and not understanding what this means and then taking on all the other woman’s perspective of it all which can be frightening, cuz their perspectives is, “oh we’re all going to die, “ and here she’s like, “are me and my child going to die? I’d rather go home and die.” You know? But the conversations, me and Susan spoke to each of them every single week so we were able to talk through some of it, but they had to do the actions, they had to do the work. So we did talk with them about you know their feelings and getting out and how to take care of themselves during this period, but they were forced to do the work cuz we’re not there with them. So she did you know, get back on her medication regimen, start going outside, um, going for walks, calling the family, using the supports, but all of these things without us doing it for her so she was forced to start being more independent which she needs to be anyway cuz you’re here and we can guide you, but we can’t do everything for you. So it did help her.
5:23
Yeah it’s interesting, I’ve been doing a bit of leg work, I don’t even know if any of it’s helpful but you know like talking to midwives and doulas and getting the information to her and like if it was me, getting that information, like I know you’re my point person, but I would make those phone calls anyway, I’d want to know as much as possible, get as many, and I don’t see her doing...
She doesn’t use the internet either, so that’s another thing, it’s just navigating all of that and I...it’s funny how she’s...where I’m trying to push her to you know pursue this and go back to school, and she has no...she does not really know how to work a computer. So we actually had a donor um, message me and say, “we want to teach some of the women basic computer skills.” Of course she is the first person that comes to mind so I’m definitely going to link her because she...I said, “you need to learn how to use a computer before you can think about going into the nursing here cuz everything we do is based around computers.” So…
All the women that I talk to, I’ve talked to three, one doula, one midwife so far and they all said that the first thing that [Redacted 2] has to do is review her, what was the word they used, risk profile. Basically, she can’t leave her daughter alone like she can’t go out to classes right now, maybe she, and not just that, she couldn’t attend births suddenly, she has to figure out, so the computer thing seems like an amazing first step. Real literacy of…
Because she’s thinking about the end goal and I’m like, “I get you and don’t think that I am not...whatever you want me to do is how we’re going to work this, but there’s some things that need to come in between. And while we’re waiting for those things to happen, here’s some things that you can do now. You know nothing about computers.” I asked her you know, “how are you with computers?” “Oh I really didn’t use it much.” “Well my dear, it is all we do here.”
They probably do and she could take probably introductory nursing classes online and get a lot of leg work done before this thing blows over.
Right, so the first step is to get her to learn how to use it. So, I’m definitely going to use this resource to help her because I’m like, “even if you wanted to go to work,” I said, “[Redacted 2], you wouldn’t know the first thing to do in our hospitals. So yes I understand you want to work, but this is not the same environment in which you were taught. And our environment is far more advanced, far more fast paced, and you really need to learn it before you get in it because then you’re gonna feel like this is not for you and it’s not that it’s not for you, you need to take all the steps prior. You can’t go straight to go, you gotta do all the steps in between.” So…
You know I’m thinking that making these, just in the time that I’ve like her being computer literate would be this window into this wh-into our society in the way that like she could take her time with it, I mean certainly you could go down a YouTube rabbit hole and see the worst things in the world, cuz I remember I was talking to her once and she said like, “the city’s on fire.” I think she probably saw some post Floyd riot picture, she’s like, “black people are being killed, and I’m here, this is terrible. What am I doing here?” So, yeah, perfect timing, but I was wondering about, um, about this idea, if there’s more of a general sense of the women don’t know how to break down a plan like that. She knows she wants to work but there are so many steps there, I feel like you encounter that all the time.
Yeah, which is where I do a lot of the work because I’m not going to do it for you, but what I will do is say, “ok this what you want, this is what I see needs to happen. These are the steps. Let’s take it one step at a time,” and every step they have a task to complete. The first task she had to complete was gathering all her documents so that I can create a profile for her with this company that is going to transcribe her documents. That took two days! Write it all down and she didn’t even have everything, she didn’t even have it all when I came two days later so you know, there are various steps and this is the thing that I’m trying to get her to understand, but I understand very well that her impatience is not so much as her is the weight of everyone else on her to show improve and show me the money so she’s feeling pressure to perform and I’m like, “but we already have a full understanding of what you want,” and I get her back to that. “I don’t want to hear what everyone else wants you to do, you need to tell me what you want to do and if it aligns with them so be it, but if it does not, then I am not doing that, I am not going to assist you with that. I’m going to assist you with what you tell me you want to do.” So she had some time to think about it and she came back to, “well I want to go to school.” “Ok, we’re back on track cuz that’s what you told me the first time.”
11:12
Right, right.
“I want to go to school.”
Good! I’m really glad to hear that. Um, I was wondering if you saw anything, so I have all these other questions, we’re kind of going out of- I was wondering if you saw any change, well first of all, how many of the residents are in the court-
System?
Involving…
With all this going on? I would say one, two, three, four, I would say four.
I guess the general question is you’ve been involved in helping these women through the court system…
As much as I can physically do because some of their situations I can’t assist them with.
Like what’s a situation…
Like when it comes to um, divorce, and all of that, I know nothing about that and it was really just linking to resources and letting the resources. That’s as much as we can do in those situations. Um, a lot of what I do is mostly helping them navigate the situation and being in control. Other than that, I don’t know a lot about what’s going on with some of their situations.
Yeah, like I know you accompanied [Redacted 1] to court, uh, and sort of helped her stand up for herself, and do you find that that’s a common thing, like people don’t really know how to represent themselves in court?
Yes, and I know, I think it’s a general when it comes to clients who have like a mental health disability, they are treated in a way where as if they are kind of looked over and pushed over and it’s because they don’t know how to be assertive, they don’t know how to get to the point and a lot of times they are taken advantage of or overlooked. So they have to have a representative, cuz you’re looked at differently when you have someone standing there with a big mouth um, they treat you differently and it’s with this job and my other job as well, so I know this. I try to assist them when I can or teach them how to be assertive and speak their own piece so they’re not looked over or just looked at as emotional. Cuz as women, you know we present emotion first, and it’s like you can’t, yes you can feel all these things, but you can’t present this, you need to stick to the facts, you need to get what you need to get done, and move on from it. Cry about it later because you have an agenda right now and really a lot of them do not know how to do that and a lot of the work has been teaching them to be in control and be and do that for themselves.
So what happens if you break down in court, like what happens if a client just starts to cry?
I mean, me, I would let them have a minute for that, then it’s like, ok we have an agenda and if you let your emotions take over, you’re never gonna get to this agenda so, let’s clear this up and let’s get to what else you have to say.
14:24
Have you seen people be like, uh, lawyers be like bully women?
I know Susan has. Susan has seen the way that they respond to the immense emotions in court. And it’s not always nice, it’s not just men either.
Yeah, yeah.
So it’s some of the women, when they’re on the opposing team, how they treat you and it’s not always in a favorable way, so she has seen that they cut her off or even when they have someone there with them and if you’re not a lawyer, they really don’t want to hear from you, um, and those kinds of things, and shutting her down, and leaving her isolated. Leaving the client isolated.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let’s get back to...I had all these follow up questions to kind of go through. Um, so I think one of the most interesting things about...this is a long term residence, affordable housing model. But all the women have to live in a group, um, so what resources have been the most helpful in terms of like group living?
Um, well, to assist with them being cohesive, we do have group things that we do. So we do a community dinner usually every other month. That allows everyone, I feel like that’s a low threshold situation where no one is really...the anxiety is not extremely high, you’re eating a meal so you’re comfortable, you’re home, you’re more relaxed, it’s a very relaxed setting to try to get everyone to come together. So, we do that every other month or so, give or take, and we have real light hearted conversations, sometimes real conversations, but it’s whatever they kind of direct the conversation. That’s one thing we do, we also do, I started game nights and movie nights. I try to do things that are entertaining but they don’t know my agenda. My agenda is to get y’all in a room together and be ok. They just find it as something entertaining to do so I have a full agenda behind a lot of the group activities that I do. And it’s really to get them to come together in the setting where they learn more about each other. It’s not just this judgmental thing you have going on in your mind about this person or you’re still hanging on to a argument you had a year ago. You’re now in a total setting where you’re not even worrying about an argument. You’re here to have fun, you’re learning about your peer and you’re getting along, so I do a lot of that to get them to come together. So a lot of group activities, community dinners, the movie nights, the game nights, and the kids’ events; the parents show up to that even though it’s not for them. But they show up to that as well and children always is a good way, having children at events is a good way to bring the parents together as well. They have low income so they don’t have a lot of resources to do things with their children, so me having the events is activities for the child, being able to spend time with the child, and being able to spend time in a group where they’re interacting with other children as well. So those are some of the resources we’ve been able to pull together to get them to work in a group or be in a group or be cohesive.
Now are these things going on now?
No, they haven’t since March, they haven’t since March.
I wonder about that. I wonder how many of the women kind of decided to be a pod, are hanging out with each other?
They kind of do, they go...during the quarantine, you know not all of them have vehicles, so the one who may have a vehicle may say, “let’s go to the park, or do you need to go to Target, or…” They kind of help each other out. So they’ve kind of created their own little communities where they take their kids and do things because they want A) their kids to get out and B) they don’t want to be alone and they want to help someone else so it’s like a dual-it helps in more than one way. They’ve created their own ways to help each other, and still do these things amongst themselves without us being involved.
Yeah that’s interesting, cuz it must be this dance of how involved versus how much do you give, how much space when they have to recreate their lives, it’s really interesting, um, so ok. Have you seen a difference with the addition of the on site therapist?
Yes. For the ones who consistently see her. And that is two of them see her weekly. And I have seen a difference in their level of anxiety. I’ve seen a difference in their level of aggression, well one was more, very aggressive, very bottled up, very anxious, and a level of depression. Um, because those two needed that constant support and you know they actually listened when I said, “you need to see her every week.” And they did take that on, so I did see a tremendous difference and just everything about them, even the way they interact with others, even the way they deal with conflict, and being more assertive as well. So um, [Redacted 2] and [Redacted 3] are funny how, are the two that see her frequently and they are a lot different than they were a few months ago.
20:25
Yeah, that’s really interesting.
They are the two who see her every week. They even speak to her every week, and she’s even started with coming around and going for walks with them, so they do have contact with her and they are the ones who have drastic changes with them.
That’s really interesting, cuz I’ve seen, I feel like when I first met [Redacted 1], she was, seemed like she would go off the handle a little bit more…
Explosive, very explosive.
And then like, even when she got mad at me for writing inaccurate things, she cooled off, like it wasn’t, it was great (laughter), she realizes it’s a process and she’s not letting emotions kind of take over.
She feels stronger, cuz even the conversations we have, she says, “I feel like I’m a stronger person.” “Because you’re using your words and you’re not just out here crazy making and just exploding all over everything. Yes legitimately you can feel all your feelings, but you need to put that into words and actions.” And she’s learning how to do that, and then trusting the process cuz you know she’s been through a lot, so I understand you lose faith in the process, and lose faith in people actually supporting you. But because she has so much support all the way around, she’s increasing her faith in herself and her abilities as well.
Yeah, I hope she makes my deadline next week. (laughter). Ok so um, alright, how do you, this is a gigantic question, how do you manage all the cultural and racial differences of the residents of Town Clock, cuz it really is a rainbow of…
Hold on, let me plug in my computer. I kind of, I don’t deal with them on the basis of that, until it comes up. Um, I’m very person centered so each person I deal with as this person. I don’t have a general way to deal with them because each of them are so different and they require different things. So, I’m very person centered in my approach, but it is difficult sometimes because um, I am challenged, well when I first got there I was challenged, I am more challenged by the white women than I am by the others and they are the ones who kind of bring up race more frequently than the others, which is interesting. Um…
Like, how do they bring up race?
Like [Redacted 1] will bring up and say, “well you sticking together cuz you’re black.” Or, “y’all are…” there was a situation with [Redacted 2] and [Redacted 3] got involved so she felt like it was the Black people against her and it is so not that. Or if I do something that she doesn’t agree with, she’ll bring up race. It has been thrown in my face several times…
I’ve talked to [Redacted 1] a little bit about race, I could understand what you’re talking about (laughter).
And I’m just like, “how are you throwing race in my face, like I’m the...do you understand your position?” I try to educate them as much as possible when it comes to that as well. Um, especially [Redacted 1] because I try to educate her, especially her um experience with DCP&P and the courts and everything, I tried to explain to her, as basic as I knew how to without it getting too big, why she’s being treated the way she is. That you may be in a system that you are the minority because you are a white woman and you might be dealing with a bunch of African American people and they may be judging you because you are a white woman. And I feel like, and I kind of got the sense of that of how they were treating her.
25:14
Huh, that’s interesting.
And I said, you know, she was dealing with a bunch of African American staff from DCP&P and I felt like they were judging her because she was a white woman, you know poor, white, woman with mental health, but making all these other judgments. And I gathered that from the way they were treating her.
Like what sort of judgments do you think they were making?
Um, basically like the way that the African American male was treating her and the things that he would say to her and even the way they did not take mental health into consideration and even the way when I would talk to them about, I’m trying to remember exactly what made me gather that.
Well I remember she was saying that somebody named Billups or something came and was very rude to her.
(unintelligible) and I personally don’t even like him and I’m not one who doesn’t like people, but I take on people’s energy and I did not like him because of what he, because of what I felt when I was around him and I felt he wasn’t genuine. I felt like he didn’t need to be there, but that’s not my call to make, I don’t work for them. Um, and his, the way he spoke to her was not the way you would speak to someone in her position. She’s not...this is not you are out and about. You are doing a job and you need to speak to her in a genuine way, also empathetic way letting her know you’re there to help her and not that you’re there to harm her, and it didn’t appear that’s what they were there for. It didn’t sound like you were there to help her. At all. At any point in time.
I’d love to be able to recreate, I don’t know if I’ll be able to do this, but recreate some of this dialogue do you have any, you can totally paraphrase, but what’s an example of something intimidating…
Like he was very, and he was being a man too, because he would tell her, “oh you’re a certain woman of a certain age, you’re good looking, you shouldn’t have no problem finding someone to be with.” Why is that part of your conversation?
Wow.
And then even the way he was, like we had a meeting and he would say, he said something along the lines of, “well we don’t know for sure what’s happening, but…” Like, when you’re talking to someone and you’re trying to assist them, you don’t say, “well we don’t know where she’s getting the information or if the child is being coached or…” Why the hell would you say such a thing?
Right, right, right.
Um, and even the way, the tone in which he spoke, I didn’t-even when he spoke to the child, it was not on a child’s level.
That’s what [Redacted 1] said, too.
It was very frightening. Yes, yes, um, it was a very big difference between the way he spoke to her and the way his co-workers spoke to her. And it was a totally different tone, totally different angle, he was speaking to her like she, we all the same age and you understand what I’m saying. We’re not in the street, you’re doing a job. You need to learn how to speak to children.
Yeah, yeah.
I didn’t care for him. His energy was so off, his tone was off, he was very cold, even during the meetings when [Redacted 1] would express how she felt, he would just move on with the agenda and I’m like, “you’re moving on with your agenda as if she didn't express how she felt and you have nothing to say about that?” And I don’t know, I guess because me being a woman, us being women, and him being a man, that is different as well, um, yeah, but…
Well it might also be this insane case load, he’s just totally jaded…
Various things because my understanding about how their system works, they have so many things, not to even take their side, but I know what goes on in those offices. They have shit loads of cases, they have all these families, they have all these situations, and sometimes I feel like not all the time do they do their jobs to their best abilities, because maybe sometimes personally you need to check out for a minute, maybe you need to go on vacation for two weeks and come back and do your job.
29:46
Right, right, it’s like if all you see is family trauma, it may just jade you.
You may shut off in a way that is not good for the people you’re serving.
Right, right. Um, so I was wondering, how much do you deal with DCP&P with other clients, other residents?
That was the first time, I mean it’s not the first time I dealt with DCP&P, we had another client who I was trying to be the go between to get things going good on her end so I could...because a lot of the times she would come to me with information and I needed to make sure it was factual because sometimes people come to you with emotional information and not factual information, so I was the in between to make sure that I knew what was going on so that I could assist her and help them as well. Her daughter was in the system, she was in foster care and she was getting visits, and I wanted to make sure that she was being treated fairly, but that I knew factual information as well. This is the second time I’ve been involved, but this is the most I’ve been involved.
And have you seen, so like [Redacted 1] thinks that um, they have, her thoughts are they have a parental bias, they are more likely to place kids with the fathers, um, and that’s a newer, that’s something that sort of happened recently, um…
She’s done far more research on this than I have because you know this is her…
I started doing a little research but there is some sort of change that happened with like policies, I think the intent was good because it was about fathers being involved more, but the way it’s played out has been not so great, but I have very general knowledge of that. Ok, um, and you don’t know...the other thing she claims is DCP&P are they paid to basically take…
That’s her perception and I don’t think so because it doesn’t make sense.
Right, how do they profit off it?
She thinks there is...people can just be shitty. You don’t have to get paid to be shitty. In her mind, that’s the logic of it, so that’s how she connects it. But that’s not...I don’t feel that at all. I don’t think they’re getting paid. I just think it’s a broken system that needs fixing is what I think.
The easiest answer for sure is that everybody’s totally overloaded. I’m curious to follow through with the policy changes that may empower men a little bit more in a negative way, um…
Probably because, if I had to think about it off the top of my head, originally they didn’t give a shit, they didn’t care about the fathers so they had to do something to clean that up, because I am pretty sure somebody sued them and they had to do something to clean it up and now there's not a fair balance. Maybe they’re trying to compensate so I could see that happening.
Right, right. And also [Redacted 1] judge was a sex offender.
Yeah that part, too. That’s a whole other situation when it comes to judges.
So we’re going from DCP&P into the court system, um, and how much, well we talked about that a little bit, you’ve been involved in the court system a little bit, but is that, do you have more thoughts about judges or…
I don’t have a lot of experience dealing with them, so I mean it’s a man’s world. That’s how I feel about it and a lot of the times decisions are not made in a fair way because it’s made from a personal perspective and not all the time is an educated one. So I feel that there needs to be new trainings in a lot of these systems on how to deal with certain...you cannot deal with everything the same way. It needs to be an overall revamping for everyone in every level of this system.
It’s interesting because I was actually thinking about this like defund the police, like what if we defunded the police and gave all the money to you guys? That’s what should happen.
I honestly feel that police need to go through the same training as social workers and I’ve always said it. We cannot deal with a person in our office without being trained so why do they get to carry weapons and deal with people every single day and not be trained the same way if not more intense because you can do more harm. There’s all these rules and regulations when it comes to counselors and social workers, but what about the police? Cuz they can take a life, we’re worried about how we treat and the fact that we may be in control mentally of a client, but what about the physical aspect? These people are going out in these streets everyday and do not know how deal with the mental health, do not know how to deal with a lot of the domestic violence, do not know how to deal with a lot of these situations that they’re put in and they’re reacting off of fear versus doing their job and they shouldn’t even be put...some of them should not even be put in those situations. We’re expecting them to come, to perform in a capacity they were not trained to perform in.
[ Annotation 10 ]
35:21
Christine, that’s the quote. You just said the quote for The New York Times, what you just said is perfect I think in terms of...so uh, ok, yeah, yeah, we could get more into that if you have time, just in terms of training.
Yeah, I know they go through their own training, but I feel as though they should be trained in a social service setting, because they are social service workers. They are dealing with people, so they should be trained in that same exact way as we do because we are trained on clients and cultural, on all of that stuff we’re trained and we’re trained to deal with people, and we’re trained to de-escalate and we’re trained to work on our own biases and we’re trained to understand our privilege and all of these-we are trained on so many levels to do so many things, but they are the ones…
[ Annotation 10 ]
Yeah and they often respond, you know, if they’re the first responders, it’s automatically going to be a uh, a conflict situation, cuz they’re coming in with guns.
Right. You’re already, you come into a situation as a threat and so you know, some of the police do have experience working with certain people, but then there’s certain that don’t, so you need to-they need to always have someone on hand who is equipped to deal with mental health situations because even in domestic violence, that is mental health.
Right, right, right, right. Um, yeah, do you have any examples of policing gone wrong, maybe different attitudes that the resi-
I think the more recent one with this um, I’ve been seeing on the news, I forgot his name, the young African American who had the mask on and they called the police because they said he looked suspicious and they didn’t even question him or anything, they just walked up on him and arrested him saying that he looked suspicious. How do you, where does that come from? How is that the way that you move in dealing with people? The first thing that you do is walk up on him and arrest him? You didn’t have a conversation with him, you didn’t talk to him, you didn’t see what was going on with him, you just walk up on him and arrest him?
Yeah...getting back to the residents and what they’re perceptions of the police might be. I have this experience, this I will never do this again, [Redacted 1] and I are Facebook friends and our politics couldn’t be more different…
I pray for you.
Right and so I put an Aid to Abolition thing up, you know about defunding the police and [Redacted 1] wrote on this message board like that she felt completely threatened by that and she’s the one person that I know besides [Redacted 2], I don’t want to make her feel threatened at the idea of changing police, so I’m wondering how many...I’m sure it runs the gamut, their different experiences with the police, like different experiences-
They’ve all not had very good experiences with the police especially when it comes to domestic violence. It’s this whole notion of being believed and being heard and being taken seriously. Even when it comes to incidences at the res-where they live. It took them awhile for them to get to the point of calling the police when they were in threatening situations cuz they would call us and we’re like, “what can we do? We’re miles away and this is your life, this is where you live, you can call the cops.” And I think they had to learn to become comfortable with calling the police because their encounters previously were all in domestic violence situations.
Yeah, yeah. Ok, um, so we talked about Covid, we talked about camaraderie.
We were talking about the cultural thing and then we kind of went off.
39:41
Yeah, oh yeah. I think I can kind of put these things together, um, so do you have anything more to say about cultural differences?
Some of the questions I had to discuss in order to get my brain moving, so me and Susan were talking about some of them and I think one of the questions, your last one I think it was in regards to…
Being a person of authority…
Right.
Yeah.
So we were discussing how like it helps that our staff is diverse being that I am a minority and Susan is not of the same because previously, the case manager prior to me was a white woman and it didn’t...from what Susan said, she got a lot from the women, but I think my...my authority has been challenged from initially being there and it was first by one of the white residents, um, I had to work on that too, um, having my authority being challenged and understanding where it was coming from.
How did you work on it? What do you mean?
I kind of worked on the part of me that needed to always feel like I was in charge. I didn't need to be in charge, I just needed them to know I was here and I was making the rules and this is what it was. That I’m not here to be the big, bad, boss or to be the overseer, that’s not my job. To try to bring it down just a little bit, even though I am over them, but not standing over them and I don’t ever want to be that and I don’t even like feeling like I’m over someone. That is not who I am.
I would think that figuring out in a women’s collective situation which is basically what this is, the power dynamic, the power structure…
Is tough.
Yeah.
Because some of them are older than me.
Right.
Some of them, we’re the same age and I really had to show myself as a support. Period. And I had to work on that piece of needing to-I don’t need to be in control all the time and I don’t need to be an authority. This is the rules and you have a choice. That’s it. And not really feeling like I had to be punitive or um, what is that kind of like push around my authority. I didn’t need to do that.
Can you give a specific example of that?
Like when I first started I made up my own rules in regards to how frequently I wanted the women to see me because I was having a problem with them meeting with me. So with Susan being in agreeance, I set up a rule that they had to see me at least three times a month. They had to make three to four touches and at least two of them or one of them had to be seeing me. So they had to be involved in our workshops, however many they wanted to, but I had to see them, one of the four touches had to be in my office, um, so immediately I was challenged. In front of everyone. “So if I don’t meet with you, what’s gonna happen, cuz I’m not doing that.” And me being me at that time, I exchanged some words, (laughter) and Susan immediately interjected cuz I felt she hit a nerve when she questioned, “well I’m not doing that so what are you going to do? What are the consequences of doing that cuz I don’t see me doing that,” and it triggered me, my heart rate went up (laughter) it was a big trigger for me. And I was like, “well that’s on you, but if you choose not to follow the rules, there will be consequences.” And it was a back and forth, power struggle.
Yeah.
And Susan had to interject and she saved me, cuz I know I would’ve probably went off on this woman if she did not interject because here I am trying to be of assistance and you’re challenging my power. So I had to learn to not even be intimidated in those situations, just present options and have them make the choice whatever the choice is, I don’t have to push my authority on you. This is the rule and if you don’t follow it, there’s consequences. That’s it. I don’t have to be standing over you telling you what to do.
RIght, right.
You agree then that’s it and moving on. I had to really learn to not, to not feel threatened when my authority was challenged.
44:21
It’s interesting we keep circling around this idea of being an authority…
And being in control…
And being in control and then fear making decisions for you that’s emotional. It’s such a...um…
So like us being of different, our being diverse has helped in dealing with some of it because if they don’t go to me they go to Susan or if they have a issue with me because I’m black, and not just the white women have issue with me being black, it was some of the black women as well. Um, and it’s funny because I didn't see something in a way that was presented to me from Manny. He said that they were jealous of me or felt threatened by me and I couldn’t understand that and I had to think about it and I said, “you know it makes sense.” Yes I’ve struggled and here I am in this position, the same age as them, but I’m on the other end of it, so it’s like, there is a kind of way that they may look at me because well, “what do you know, you’re on the other end of this and I’m not talking to her because she may judge me,” and I’m not one bit judgemental but this is their own thought process, so it can be a bit intimidating when you are of the same age as the person supporting you and trying to help you work through your life. So I’ve gotten some resistance from the African American women as well. Um, and I just really try to educate them, really always just letting them know I’m here to support them, and I kind of minimize, I always bring in my experiences to let them know, though I am at the other end of this, I am no different than you. So a lot of the times I bring in my own experiences, I’ve gone through the same crap, I’ve been through crap with my kids’ father, I’ve been through the court system, I’ve been to points where I wanted to murder someone, you know I’ve been on the end of not knowing what to do and making all the bad decisions. I can relate to each and every one of them. So when they get to the point where they feel like intimidated or whatever it is by my presence, I always humanize myself by saying, “listen do you understand I’ve made so many wrong decisions in my life? The only reason I’m here is because at one point I decided I wanted to start making some right ones. I’ve done all the things you’ve done, I’ve been where you are.” And I am very up front and honest. I'll tell them the things that went on in my life. And that kind of gets them to open up and kind of changes the dynamic of the conversation, but um, I have been challenged, my authority has been and still sometimes has been, but now I think it’s more so when they don’t know what else to do or someone else to blame. Then I am the person they drop it on and I’ve come accustomed to being that.
[ Annotation 3 ]
First it was difficult, but now I’m able to identify it as soon as it happens, I’m like, “ok this is what this is, it’s ok. I’m going to back off. Give them two weeks and then pursue again.” And then me and Susan also discussed, I think I said it already, race was used as a weapon against us. It’s used to say, “well you treat this one better than me.” And they’ll bring up race. Um, or try to make us feel guilty about something, “do I have to be black to get support?” And it’s like where does that come from cuz we spoil all of them in ways they don’t always earn so it’s like, “where are you coming from with this race piece?” Um, but it’s always brought up by them. They are the ones who bring up race. I don’t believe...only one time I brought up race, I think when it came to [Redacted 1] and the DCP&P system and I don’t think I’ve ever really brought up race before except with Katie as well when she’s being...she went through a period of being very, walking around very privileged with the women and I kind of had to bring that up with others’ perspective of her behavior. But other than that, they are the ones who bring race into the room.
I wonder if certain, everyone has certain experiences...ugh I have to go at 12:45, my daughter has a little...can I call you back a little bit later?
Um, I don’t know what I’m going to be doing, but you can try.
Ok, cuz I think this is all really, really interesting stuff, it’s how it all works, how everything works. The things that I haven’t, that I wanted ...if you have any more pieces about it, I’d love to hear, um, the bigger question I think is how much is, this is something you can think about. Is like getting over trauma versus, part of being in this situation is getting over the trauma and then, but there’s this stagnation because I think of general lack of resources, you know, for example, in a perfect world, [Patience 2] is hooked up with somebody who can right away that can give her a computer, there need to be more options for women to better themselves quickly.
But I think that doesn’t always make a difference. Sometimes it does, there is a difference between rich women who are in domestic violence situations versus poor, but the process in which they go through and even what they are doing with their lives may still very well be the same. So even if they have the resources, it doesn’t always mean they’re gonna utilize them. And it doesn’t always mean they’re going to be accepting and move forward, and able to move on, so it’s helpful, but it depends on where they are and what they’re trying to do with their life.
50:54
Yeah, that’s really interesting, cuz I was talking to somebody who was, I get this when I tell people about this project, they’re like “how much is them just sitting around and not doing anything except dwelling on their trauma, what’s going to get them back in society?” And I just think that’s…
It’s a different timeline for everyone as well. Cuz everyone experiences trauma so differently and some people it can be paralyzing for years and some people, they’ll maybe paralyze able to work being that way and it won’t keep them from pursuing their dreams, they’ll be functioning with the trauma.
Yeah, yeah, ok. There’s one other thing I want to leave you with, how do you see the system undercutting women’s gains, so for example if somebody goes back to school and maybe suddenly has or gets a good job but can’t stay in housing…
Oh I can tell you that from personal experience I got a lot for that. From personal experience I know how the system sets you up to fail.
Right and that’s a question, cuz like that’s the next, that’s if you succeed the system is setting you up to fail. Like if these women go to school, start making more money, thirty percent of their income or something like that goes to housing…
But then if they make too much money, they’re not eligible for vouchers. But then they don’t make enough money to pay market rent. So it’s just like, there’s no in between. Either you’re poor or you make enough to sustain, but there are no cushions to guide you between those levels.
Yeah, yeah, I guess I’m interested to see how you navigate that middle, maybe none of these women are in that middle situation yet, is that…
Yes, one of them is, her issue is her substance abuse is keeping her. It’s not so much financial, it’s her substance abuse issues, cuz she’s making money. At one of her jobs, she’s making more than me in one of my jobs. So (laughter), it’s other factors that play into that as well, but the system is designed in a way that you have to sink or swim.
Well, I’ll follow up on that later, I don’t think I have more than fifteen minutes more.
No it’s ok, we can talk about it later.
This is great. So helpful. Thank you so much.
You’re welcome
End of recording.