Town Clock CDC Resident

This Town Clock CDC resident details their upbringing in Canada and New Jersey, and the domestic abuse that occurred in their family. They describe the physical and verbal abuse they encountered during their second marriage and the traumatic circumstances that occurred during their separation from their spouse. It was during this point that they found the services provided at Town Clock CDC.

“I know you like to blame me but nope it had nothing to do with me.”
— TCCDC Resident

Annotations

1. Leaving Abusive Relationships - On average in a relationship containing interpersonal violence it can take a survivor up to 7 times before leaving the abusive relationship for good. There are several reasons a survivor may stay in an abusive relationship. Growing up in an environemnt where abuse was common, they may not be able to understand what a healthy relationship looks like when in search for their own spouse. TCCDC's resident grew up with an abusive father and was unable to see a healthy relationship developed. Survivors may continue their relationship with the perpetrator in order to prevent embarrassment, shame, and judgement which may arise from their friends and family for either leaving the relationship or finding out about the abuse. Culture and religion play another role, in which someone may want to stay in an abusive relationship to avoid the judgement and shame that can be brought on their family or themsevles if they leave or are a single parent. The victim also may have a child with the perpetrator and may want to maintain the family. This is demonstrated in TCCDC resident's story where she feared the judgement of those in the church. If she left her partner they would see she was a single mother with no husband. Therefore although a victim may want the violence to stop they may not want the relationship to end completely. Lack of money and resources can also cause a survivor to stay with the victim due to not having any other place to go. There were several times throughout TCCDC resident's experience where she was unsure where she would go and felt as if she were stuck.
2. Economic Abuse - Between 94-99% of domestic violence survivors have also experienced economic abuse. Economic abuse is another form of abuse used to maintain power and control over another person. It prevents the survivor from accessing and using economic resources for security. This form of abuse hinders economic self-sufficiency and economic self-efficacy. In a relationship with economic abuse the abuser may harrass the victim when working or prevent/prohibit them from working, ruin the victims credit score, require that they account for all spending expenses, provide them with an allowance, or preventing them from having money to use. Money may distrubuted, however it is then monitored in use and only for household items. We can see this demonstrated in the TCCDC resident's experience where the offending partner only provided her with $72 to use and groceries and became upset when she went over that limit.
3. Sexual Violence - Sexual violence is a dehumanizing act that has been happening across many years, yet still many cases go unreported. Perpetrators of sexual violence are least likely than other criminals to go to jail. Only 230 out of every 1,000 assaults are reported to police. There are several reasons one may not report to the police, but 15% of people who did not report believe that the police could not do anything to help. 13% of individuals felt that it was a personal matter because they were the ones being dehumanized. Many reasons that violence is not brought to authorities and people do not receive help is because there have been constant times throughout history in which someone has turned a blind eye and sided with privilege. In this situation, Town Clock CDC resident is mentioning how this violence had made her feel dehumanized. When someone has power and control over another person they are taking away their freedom given in the first amendment, and because of that this should be a concern within the system and should be addressed within the system.
4. Mandatory Reporting - Those who have regular contact with vulnerable populations have the legal responsibility of mandatory reporting. However some survivors may struggle with reportie due to their locus of control. This refers to how strongly people believe that they have control over their lives. People with an internal locus of control can feel as though they can make change happen in the world, whereas people with an external locus of control feel as though life happens to them. For women in abusive relationships they may feel powerless due to the power and control elicited by the perpetrator. This violence happened to them. Rather than feeling in control of their lives, survivors can feel as though they have no control and life just happens to them. Research has found that in response to violence, women tend to use passive coping and avoidant strategies. For survivors this can be an adaptive response or an instrument for survival. Due to the abuse and the retraumatization from the child welfare system TCCDC resident feels powerless against the situation and tells her daughter that there is no way that she can help her. It has come to the point where she feels desensitized to the situation completely.
5. Child Welfare - Even after child welfare monitors cases, many children as still facing abuse and even death. This represents the lack of attention given by the child welfare system in cases. In the child welfare system many workers are given large caseloads which makes it difficult to serve families effectively. When complex cases require further intervention that further adds on to the caseworker loads. Although Town Clock CDC resident's child was clearly facing many symptoms of sexual violence, they may have gone dismissed due to the system within DCPP and how they handle cases.
6. Long Term Housing - Survirvors of violence are at risk of losing custody of their children if they do not have a home for themsevles and their child. 83% of domestic violence survivors identify that they need to find housing that they can afford and provides safety. However long-term housing for survivors are limited, as there are only 40 permanent housing faciltiies for survivors of violence throughout the United States. There are many barriers that may prevent the survivor from finding affordable housing which emphasizes the importance of permanenet housing considering that to eliminate some of these barrier may take years. Some of these barriers include poor credit and rental history due to the abuser, lack of employment due to violence, and housing discrimination due to the amount of calls received to the police or property damage from the abuser. In this case Town Clock CDC resident was not working and had limited access to resouces, making it difficult to find affordable housing.
7. Mental Health; Child Welfare - In some states, mental illness can lead to a loss of custody or parental rights. Rates for custody loss range from 70-80% when parents have a mental illness and even greater when they have a serious mental helth condition compared to those who do not have any mental health condition. In this case, The court used Town Clock CDC resident's mental health condition to consider her as an unfit parent, to the point of exaggerating the mental health condition in order to emphasize this. There are some symptoms of mental illness such as disorientation along with the effects of medication that deem the parent to be unfit to care for the child. In this case, the court was mistating what her mental illness was and providing the image that she had a mental illness that had the symptoms of making her "unfit" to care for the child.
8. Gender Bias; Victim Blaming; Child Welfare - Blaming mothers has been commonly seen in Child Welfare practice. These biases have become manifested in within research and translated into practice. Ideology on 20th century fatherhood reflects the belief that caretaking by the father is discretionary whereas caretaking by the mother is obligatory and required. Due to this 20th century ideology mothers have become the main source of blame for familial issues. In Town Clock CDC residents experience she was blamed when reporting the abuse of her child, while social workers have continued to defend and excuse the father. Child welfare literature fails to provide adequate attention to the role of the father in the childs well-being causing the fathers to be excused.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Lauren Weinstein

New Brunswick , NJ

December 2019

Transcription by Destiny Morales

Annotations by Destiny Morales

Part 1

Okay 

Okay

Um, so tell me about your childhood. Where were you born?

I was born in Montreal, Canada. 

Mhmm

Um…

Does anybody... does anybody remember your birth?

My birth?  

Yea

Uh my mom. My mom. She said that I was very very cute and how this one lady back then the nurse she was like in love with me and she would always take me away from my mom (laughs) all the time.

(laughs)

 She said that I look like a little boy though

Uh huh

Um, I was bald (laughs)

(laughs)

Um... yea.

So, you were born in Montreal and did you stay there? Did you guys move around or?

Um… we did move around a lot actually my dad he had us moving around a lot. Um from Montreal we moved to um.. Quinnipiac. We lived in this um, this placed called Gillam.

Mhmm

And I remember there were like Native Indians around and we lived in like a trailer like those mobile homes. And uh it was nice over there actually and the people were very, those the Indian people were very very very nice

Mhmm

And I, that is one thing I remember. I was like six. Um very sweet people. They would always give us gifts

Mhmm

Um. and I remember they would call my mom mama

Mhmm

We used to go hunting with my dad. There's a forest right across and we used to pick blueberries and all of these things. Raspberries, there are so many things out there. And my father would always bring home like rabbits (laughed)

Rabbit, so he would hunt?

Yea I think one time he accidentally shot an owl and then he tried to save it and let it go but it was nice because he used to bring these animals home and we’d like.. yea

yea so um. Was it a pretty rural situation?

Yea.. and um I was going to kindergarten back then

Uh huh

Sometimes I remember for some reason I would be going to school at night time (laughs) but it wasn’t really night time (laughs).

Uh huh

So

What, what was it? Was it just dark outside?

I think for maybe a day or two it was dark. I didn’t know about that you know (laughs) back then so

0:03:32

Yea, um. What are some more things you remember about your childhood?

Um. I remember the first time I went to Greece when I was 6. I remember where we used to live in Montreal. I remember the balconies and the spiral staircases. It was beautiful. I remember the um amusement park Larand. Um, all the festivals and stuff like that Montreal had it was nice

Mhmm

Yea. What else? I uh… I remember when I was growing up like around.. Well.. from what I know I was my father's favorite actually he would always take me to work with him he was a leather cutter. And um he would put me on the, you know the little chair. I was a baby then and he was just busy doing his work and he had me there my mother didn’t have to worry about.. (laughs) Yea. he had his little transistor radio and listened to music. But then as I grew up my father wasn’t um.. He wasn’t the same towards me as he was when I was little, when I was a baby. He was more strict like “You can't do this” and “You can’t do that”. We weren't allowed to state anyone in high school like everyone else. I couldn't go to the dances. So, he was just a strict Greek father with old fashioned, old fashioned brain being that he came from the island of Crete and he is from a village that he can um, make my life the same way. So I was pretty much inside the house a lot you know… in my old world (laughs).

Mhmm

And then you know, I… I could have fought that anyway but… but…. he would… he would beat me if I didn’t listen to him.

Yea

If I didn’t listen to him he would hit me.. Uh… sometimes he would leave marks on me too. But um.. one time it got really bad when I was 18. I decided to clean the house and when I was cleaning the house he said “stop”. I think he had issues with my mother working so he took it out on me. And I said I am not going to stop cleaning and I told my little brother to pick up his toys and when I said that, that triggered him. And he said “Leave the child alone let him play with his toys” you know whatever and I said “No he has to pick up because I have to sweep, I have to sweep and mop here”. Um then he got up and pulled me by the hair and dragged me into the bathroom. And um.. Beat my head on the toilet seat. I know somebody must have heard me screaming in the apartment building and they called and they called uh.. (music playing in the background).

Do you want me to stop it? Okay

Okay so, um.. my father got in trouble pretty much and we went to court. I didn’t take him to court the officer that came in um.. In Highland Park saw what he did and he, you know he’s like.. He took pictures of me.

08:32:9

Wait so, where is Highland Park?

Highland Park is right next to New Brunswick?

And how old were you?

I was 18 at the time. So yea, so he um he had trouble the judge said to me you know you could have killed her. The pictures were just I mean I was bruised from here and up. My lip was like.. Up there. My eye was like.. Messed up. And he says “Well you know this is the way I was brought up too on my father's side this is the way I was treated by my dad”. He said “yea but you can’t do that here you could have killed her”. I couldn’t forgive my dad for a while. And my father when he went to Greece for a little bit my mom would share with us and then he came back home. He wasn’t an American citizen he just had a green card and because of the abuse he actually lost his green card. And he had to um.. Start all over again like maybe 3 years ago to start all over again and get, uh his green card done again because of the abuse.

When did he lose his green card?

Um I am not. I don’t remember when exactly but I remember that it was just recent like recently before his death. 

Huh

Yea 

Was that the only time? That one..

No he has hitten me many times before and I mean he used to take out belts and stuff. My brother used to get beat up too [Redactor 1]. He was oh my god mostly him. And we used to think that maybe he hated my brother for some reason. No reason at all and that he was just hitting him, so we felt that since he was a little kid. My brother still feels that way. To the point where he didn’t even want to name his son after him. But in order to be nice he just gave him a second name. His first name was [Redactor 2] and his second name... um was [Redactor 2]. So..

So can you tell me about forgiveness? What and where are you at with that right now?

With my dad?

Mhm

I have forgiven him, but the relationship between me and my dad was not so.. It wasn’t the same anymore. And I think he was being a little vengeful too in a way because like after that we weren’t really talking much, we weren’t really like just a simple “Hii how are you dad what's up” you know. Um. He was helping my younger brother with a lot of things around his house like with his family, his garden. He never came here once to visit or to help me with anything. Um. When I wanted to learn how to drive my father was the one that I that, I that said you know “I’ll take you I’ll drive you” he was like “No you don’t know how to do this, you don’t know how to do that, you are very stupid you don’t know what you’re doing” you know. So I felt like I wasn’t good enough for driving and with all the yelling and all of that stuff I got scared so I never drove. Um.. and he would like some friends in Edison he helped those two girls like their daughters and they would, they would say to me that “Your dad was like more than a dad than our dad” (laughs) that was weird you know. And um.. I was like dad you know I was upset about that because I was like you know I really didn’t have that, you know. Instead I had some .. experiences with him like the control and then if I did anything or if I said anything even said “Can I go to the beach with so and so” I would get beat up. Yea. 

0:13:48

So what was it like after um everything? What was after that?

Nothing he just he just you know stopped doing that. He just stopped trying to hit me or anything like that he would never do that again I think he got scared. 

So did you. What did you do? Did you stay with your family did you move away? Did you...

No I stayed, you know don’t forget that I didn’t know where to go I mean because my life was basically being cooked up in the house all of the time, being locked up. I didn’t know I would be outside too much so I had to stay with my mom and my dad and.. This is why I'm like you know now in this life you know like I was like you’re better off married and have a husband so he can take care of you. You know this is how it is, this is how these Greek families have back then teach you, you know, what life is all about. And um. Now I am here and look you know I am trying to do something for myself but I I don’t know how to.. You know sometimes I’m like (laughs) I try, I try. 

Um

The only person I have that can help me now with my child is my mother you know. Um.. and that’s all I have. 

Do you.. Do.. You also were artistic would you remember or any early memories of doing art? Do you have early memories of doing art as something to pass time?

Yes… Yea when I was 5 years old I noticed how my mom used to draw these beautiful um drawings of these you know like sixty-ish fifty-ish women like figures and stuff and I copied a lot. She would put pictures of herself in the center and then she would have the Beatles like their heads (laughs) you know the big Beatles around. Um.. Her um… her friend I liked the way she drew so I used to try to copy and then I became a little bit better than she did and she would say... I liked hers still you know she would draw uh.. Pictures of, it looks like Reggie Bardel with a guitar and bellbottoms (laughs) and the turtle necks mostly and half cut shirt, capris, anything like that she would do that. Sitting under a tree there were like flowers all over the place it was so pretty.

Yea. Did you ever um.. Try to pursue your artistic talents?

Yes I did. And I was discouraged (laughs). Um.. I got very much into, you know, my faith and I went to the monastery in Pennsylvania and the.. I um.. I um.. My, the elder. The elder that made the monasteries he said for me to go to the elders over there to teach me how to do Byzantine artwork. But I.. I felt that she didn’t want to in a way. And I showed her some on canvas like what I could do stuff like that and she said Those are not considered icons. It is very different the way that it’s done”, cause you have to count there's.. Has a certain it’s like a code kind of like with its face. The Virgin Mary, Archangel, Michael. But the saints she said are very easy to do because they were human and sometimes you can just look at pictures of them. They're modern and you can just do them like that. Um… yea I was like okay I am willing to learn but instead of teaching me she would teach the other girl that was with me. And she didn’t even know how to.. She just drew (laugh) figures like um like you know they were sticks and all that stuff she wasn’t really good. And um she would make me do all of these things around the monastery for three months like assemble things, well at least I learned that (laughs) and that’s it.

So how did you find yourself at the monastery? You lived part time in um...

Well when I was 26 I wanted to try it out. I just wanted to get away. And I stayed there about two months and um

So you were living at home at the time and you decided to go?

Yea. I wanted to learn but I was, I was put down a lot in the monastery by the elders. She was doing that because she wanted to see if I was um good enough to be a nun (laughs).

What does good enough mean?

Good enough meaning you have humility, when people put you down and stuff like that but I was you know. I was hurt, I didn’t have humility, I was actually sensitive.

Mhmm

And she even said that “You are not for the monastery you are better getting married, you are very sensitive” you know. And I’m like “I didn’t come here with the hopes of becoming a nun. I was told I could get help from you so you can teach me how to do the Byzantine artwork because another friend told me to come here” and she said “Oh I didn’t know that! Oh I’m sorry my bird”. She called me my bird in Greek.

How long was this experience?

Um. it was just 2 months, 2 months.Yea… 

0:20:35

So at what point? So you are about 26 then.. What happens next?

Um..but then I meet. I go back to my old life and I was working uh where I still work in a hair salon and I would just work, save my money, and then I thought of going to school for cosmetology for hair and…. uh for skincare I went actually, skincare at the time. Um… I went to [Redactor 3] New York and [Redactor 4] for makeup. I saved money but not.. I didn’t have enough. I was trying to save more so that I could buy some things and you know and started.. But I still, you know I still needed more. Anyway um.. I was just.. I was just working, working, working and then I met my first husband at the hair salon. I washed his hair, he didn’t even tip me (laughs), he didn’t even tip me (laughs).

(Laughs)

But he was stalking me according to his sister. She told me “My brother likes you, he works upstairs at Gloria Jeans”. She goes “Would you wanna go out with him”? She goes “go upstairs and talk to him” and he goes “Hey do you want to go to the movies?” and I had said “Sure” and that’s when we had hit it off and everything was great we were together for.. For 10…10 years. But eventually he met somebody else while we were living together and um.. Then he... When he dumped her for a little bit that’s when he asked me to get married, we were engaged, that's when he asked me to get married, and then that first time we got married that’s when he actually dumped me the same day so.. Yea. 

So you guys were married..

The same day we got married I had to go back to my mothers. Let’s just put it that way.

You were together for 10 years, you finally got married and then you moved back to your mothers?

So, my life is just it’s so sad (laughs) so sad

What um...

It’s just sad (laughs). It was ridiculous.

So… do you want to say anything more about that or? How.. Where were you so, New Jersey?

Yea in New jersey I lived right across Menlo Park Mall by Macys and um it’s the um.. What are the apartments called I forgot. I forgot the name of the apartments, anyway it was facing Macy's so there’s.. Right in front of us was T-mobile. Um.. 

Um.. how old were you when that?

When.. when we broke up or?

Yea, yea

I think I was about 34.. 34 or 35 something like that

Um… and you were living with him in an apartment?

Yea 

 24:25:00

Um, Was there any domestic violence in that situation or was it?

No

Or he was just?

No. No we never fought

Yea

We never had a fight. Um.. we got along perfectly we were like best friends. He used to um decorate the house everybody would like you know because I did a painting and everybody was like “Wow this is so cool” but out of anger I broke it (laughs) I threw it in the garbage. I've been I don’t know I was just.. I was so mad. 

Yea, I can imagine. Um.. Um.. So... Let’s see. When did you leave your...

I want to say something about my first husband

Yea yea yea yea sure

He was actually a good person

Mhm

And he was very giving 

Mhm

Uh he was even when we got divorced he was like “[TCCDC resident]” he goes “It was my fault” you know.

Mhm

Umm… he goes “It was my fault for the divorce and everything” so he goes “I don’t want you to lose your money” because he used to help me save my money (laughs)

Mhm

So he said “I don’t want you to lose your money and everything so I am going to give you 7,000” he had a good job at the time when we met he had a good job like for export, it was so weird he goes you know “Take your 7,000” and I didn’t care about the 7,000 I cared that I lost him.

Mhm

Because he was the world to me, he was like the father I never had (laugh).

Uh huh

In a way. And he was younger than me it was like weird. And he did say he goes “I felt” he goes that when we were together “The whole time I felt like I had a daughter” and not you know. That kind of hurt but...

Yea

I was like “I didn’t know. I wish you told me” I said “maybe you know people who… couples who argue you know get their point across and that way things can be fixed you know but I didn’t know that”. 

Mhm

Because I was working I mean I didn’t you know, I didn’t bother him I was working.

Mhm

I saved my money and well he helped me save because I was like a spender I like to spend. Um on stupid things like you know clothes and makeup and all that stuff. Um.. but I didn't need to. I didn’t have to because he would spend it on me you know. He would say things like “Let’s go let’s go shopping for you, let's buy clothes you know, let's buy some nice shoes” because I wasn’t really that much of a um like to dress dress up. I was more of a jeans and t-shirt person but makeup and skincare and all that stuff was very important to me (laughs) and hair. That’s it. Um...

27:50:00

So.. So.. you are about 34 at that point. What happens next?

He um. We were watching Friends at home and I made tea because we would always watch tv together so.. He was. He just turned around and says “I’m not happy”. And I said I’m like what is he talking about and he is like um.. “I'm not happy I'm in love with somebody else”. I was so broken. But that’s basically it and he would go visit her while I was at home. He even kissed me on the forehead and he would go and sleep it was like really stupid like ridiculous and I had enough and I uh I just made him his favorite food and I said “I am leaving goodbye”. So… I’m gone.


Where did you go?

My moms. But I was, I was really sad. I was, I was so depressed that I started to lose a lot of weight because I wasn’t eating. I was in bed. I was all to myself. I stayed in the room, my mom was getting annoyed. And um… it got... It got really bad you know. I was always crying, crying, crying I never you know I never thought I would get to that from being happy and, and um… 

So.. how long did that last?

Well the money that he gave me... Um, I decided to go to Greece. I went to Athens. I went to my cousin's house. I would hang out over there just to get away from everything. I was thinking of moving there to like staying there for good

What year was this?

Uh it was in um.. 2008? Yea

So you went to Athens?

Yea I stayed in Acropolis. I had fun. Got away from you know. I needed that.

Have you ever been.. You spent time in Greece before or? 

Yea I had my house in Rhodes in everything but I didn’t want to be alone because I really don’t have that much family in Rhodes.

Wait so, just in terms of Rhodes you have you had a family connection in Rhodes growing up? Or what’s the?

Um my mother's brother

Mhmm

Is in Rhodes but he’s in a village.

Uh huh

But uh... So that’s a little bit like maybe not even like 20, 20 minutes away from the city. 

Mhmm

In Rhodes. I mean it still is just like three times smaller than um Israel or New Jersey. 

Um… 

Because Israel is like as big as New Jersey actually.

Yea [inaudible 00:31:33]

00:31:38

Uh okay so you went Athens you had fun, and you needed that

Yea, I stayed with my cousins there we went out and we had fun. I saw places you know that I’ve never seen before because I never went to Athens that much.

Mhmm

Only just for a couple of days just to see my aunts and then we go straight to Rhodes or Crete from there you know.

And um... So how long did you stay there for?

Um, I think I stayed there for like 4 months. 4 months. Yea...

And then what brought you back? How did you..

Um.. from there I went to Chicago 

Mhm

Because my friend [Redactor 5], her name was [Redactor 5], she owned a hair salon and said “Do you want to come and live in Chicago for a little?” you know “You can come and stay with me, you can live with me” but she was making my life difficult (laughs). Um she was treating me like a slave actually in that house and in the salon. I would get my um... my tip money of course from the people, from the clients, but I would never get paid. And then at her house because it was her house she expected me to do house work, clean, and then she was also depriving me of something that was very important and that was a bathtub or a shower, yes. She would lock it up and she would say “You have that bathroom right there where you can pee and whatever, whatever you want to do but if you want to shower you have to ask me and you can use the one in my” you know. “In the other room”. I’m like why. 

00:33:50

Yea

So I was actually talking to this guy from Facebook his name was.. He was Greek his name was [Redactor 6] and everything. He owned a diner, he owns a diner, actually he actually owns three diners here now in um, in Palisades Park.

Mhm

Anyways so we went out, he liked me very much. I mean he was, yea, he says “I’ll help you. I'll help you come back to Jersey” (laughed) so he helped me come back and I called my father. I said “Dad this and that and that and that” and He says “Okay [TCCDC resident] come back home, come back home” you know. And he goes “I’ll talk to your mother and everything” you know because I ran away because I didn’t want to be home anymore. I didn’t want to annoy her you know but she was like “No I don’t want her to come back” you know this and that. I said “Please I have to come back. I don’t have any place to go”. So I went and then… um… I started going out with [Redactor 6]. I was still screwed up. I didn’t take him seriously; he was very serious. He would have been a great guy for me you know and I messed that up too.

[ Annotation 1 ]

Was this the diner owner?

Yes, [Redactor 6] yea. Um and I pretty much broke his heart so. I was difficult, I was like not into getting into that many relationships. I just, I was just screwed up from the first one that I had. But now I wish, but now he’s married (laughed) he has three kids and he's still in church. Like if I see him he’s like looking at me like you know my mom is like “He still loves you I can tell” (laughs).

(Laughs)

I said “I know mom but I can’t do anything now it’s over he has his family I can’t do that” you know.

Mmm so… After that you’re living at home you’re in New Jersey. Um what happens next?

Umm (sigh). I was with my mom, living with my mom. Then after that I went to Greece again in 2010 I went to Rhodes, stayed over my friends house [Redactor 7]. She has like a villa huge she has so much property with a horse and it was nice over there. Then I went home you know I had the key to my house and I just stayed there by myself my mom allowed it you know she allowed me to stay and um.. I don’t know we’re just it was fun and then I met [Redactor 8]. I met my ex. And um he was younger. A lot younger, he was like 12 years younger and um and my friend was like “So what just date him big deal just have fun you know”. She goes “I wish you could just stay here, just stay with us in Rhodes” you know. Um... I was like what am I gonna do? Where am I gonna work? You know this place is difficult. It was, it was very difficult.

What do you mean?

To stay in Rhodes and survive.

Not a lot of jobs or?

They don’t pay well

Yea

And sometimes they won’t even pay you like if you're working in a hotel or something let’s say. They might just like, if they don’t have your pay for you you’ll just have to wait and they pay every month like once a month. How can you survive? You know...

Yea

You can’t. So I said to her “Where am I going to work? What am I going to do?” She’s like “Just stay with me, just stay with me” you know. I said “no, I don't want to do that” I said “I would rather stay at my house”. Um... but she’s not bothering me. She opened up a cafe now with three other people. So she’s doing well. Um… That’s um… So anyway I went out with [Redactor 8] and then I guess the second time I went with him I got pregnant. 

00:38:43

Wow

And then I went back home and I was pregnant. I missed my period and my sister in law was like “[TCCDC resident] listen, If you don’t want to keep it. Let me know, I’ll have it”. Um… So um. What was I saying?

Uh you’re pregnant

Yes I was pregnant and I wanted to keep the baby. I said you know what I never had one. I'm thirty-eight besides that it is you know I know it is a sin of course to abort a child and not give it life and if I was even if I wasn’t a fit person to have a child then I would give it to my sister in law I would you know. And she is great with kids. But I knew that I would love this baby you know. And as it grew in my belly I loved it so much you know and then when she came out I never felt so happy in my life. I mean tears of joy. I was like this is the happiest thing that ever happened to me in my life. I was you know I was um.. But he, [Redactor 8] before that we would go back. There were red flags with this man. He was hot and cold with his character. He was nice but next minute he was like nasty. It even got to the point where he threw me out at 7 months and yea and told me to go to my house. And I went and there was no electricity or anything like that. And my mom she would say “[TCCDC resident] she’s like…”---

And this is in?

This is in Rhodes

You went back?

Yea because I went back to stay with him and he didn’t have any money. He didn't have anything he was just like a waiter. I mean not even a waiter, he would just call in the tourist to come and to have a seat. 

Mhm

Um… and then he would sit during the winter time the Greeks you know there is no tourism they just stay home and eat and waste all the money they have whatever they can, whatever. But I had my money you know I was using that and he you know he wasted his too. And he you know but back back again I missed to tell you when I got pregnant and I first told him about it he said to me “Um.. I can’t have this you know i'm not ready to be a father or anything like that” he goes  “I'm sorry I can’t do that”. And I said “Okay fine” then I just said that “I just wanted you to know that I’m pregnant”. He goes “Well how do I know that it’s not anybody else’s?” I’m like “Uh I know whose it is so that’s what’s important um and you know I’ll have it by myself it’s fine I have my family here you know” and um... I wasn't heartbroken or anything because you know I already went through that crap. I didn’t you know I just wanted to focus on my baby, that was it. But then he called like two days later and was like “Oh you know what I really love you this and that blah blah blah and I really want to come over here” you know this and that so I went over there which I shouldn't have. I regret it. Because then I wouldn't have had these problems right now (sigh). Yea like I said he was, he was verbally abusive. Treated me like crap. Wasn’t helping me even with the supermarket and the ladies were like “You come here all the time and you’re bringing you know where is your husband to help you? You know you’re with a belly and everything it's no good for you to walk like that”. I looked so you know.

Mhm

And they would help me out. They said “Just take the cart we know where you live. I will come and take it, it's fine” you know. But you know there were stairs and he wouldn't even help you know. And then the one girl told him “You should help her out and if you can’t ” she goes. “I'll do it” you know he was just busy playing video games all the time. You know he was always in his underwear playing video games. I don’t know what I was thinking (laughs) I just don’t know what I was thinking. I should have left. I should have left, I should have listened to my mother when she said “[TCCDC resident] get out of there get out” just who cares. I’m like “Ma, I'm worried about what people are going to think when I come back and I'm all by myself” because the Greeks here they gossip, the church you know they’ll say “Why is she pregnant and all by herself?” you know. They would definitely you know make fun of you. I mean my brother who is with my sister in law they had the baby [Redactor 2] and the man that is in the choir of the church turned around and said “Your son” in front of everybody even my father at the time he said “Your son is a bastard because you didn’t get married in the church so he’s a bastard”. He goes “My child is baptized” and he goes “I don’t care you’re still a bastard”. My father got so pissed off he said “Let’s go, let's get out of here let's go home”. You know. But um yea. So we went and came back and then he showed more of himself.

00:45:47

To America? 

My mom. Yes we came back to America my mom helped him out, he was living under her roof, she got him clothes, underwears, you name it. She um.. She got him a job. She drove him to work and all he could be is mean towards me and then my mom one time when we went to Madame Tussauds Museum in New York he was like always like nasty he was like “Oh you can’t even take a picture, you can’t even do this, you can’t even do that”. He was like “Can’t you hail a taxi? I was like this, like with a belly I looked like I had twins. 

So you were about 7 months pregnant in Greece and 8 months pregnant when you came back here?

Yea, I came back here and i’m not even I wasn’t even supposed to be on an airplane.

Yea, yea

You know I’m not supposed to but I had to come back because I wasn’t able to give birth over there without paying a whole bunch, he would pay a lot of money. And I had my you know insurance here and everything so you know I would have had her here for free anyway. The plan wasn’t for him to come along. The plan was for me to go there by myself and have the baby and then go back again, if... Well he wanted to come and my mom paid for his ticket. And this is how it all started. But he didn’t you know he was so... anyway this is how it all started. My ankles were swollen after when we came back from Madame Tussauds Museum and I had like sharp pains here. And my mom goes “Do you want me to put you in the tub? You want to relax or something because you’re obviously in pain” you know I was like “Ma I think I am going to give birth soon (laughs) so this is how I feel”. And uh he goes “What are you a baby?” He turns around that says that “Why are you going to take her back? She acts like she’s like a baby” and she goes “Why are you yelling at her she is in pain?” you know and he goes “You shut up” he says to my mother. In her house. And my mom was like “[TCCDC resident] you know what I don’t like him”. She said it straight to his face “If you want to go out I mean if you guys want to find a place by yourselves if you still want to be with him go ahead, but I don’t want him under my roof because I don’t like the way he is treating you”. He goes “I just came here from a different country this and that i'm not used to this” so my mom goes “Move then if you feel that you don’t like it here then go” you know “You don’t have to treat her like crap you’re stressing her out and she’s pregnant and that’s not good”. You know. And then he wanted to find another apartment and we found another apartment. I tried to bring peace and I was always, I was the stupid one always trying to make everything peaceful in the family no matter what even if he was a jerk. I would try to forgive all of his you know um.. You know attitude and everything. He got violent after when we were in Highland Park after I had my daughter she was like... I think she was around 7 months. And that's when he um, he got so pissed off at me because I did something wrong for the green card that he was getting, the paperwork. I did something wrong and I sent back the paperwork so he got mad and he choked me and I was holding the baby in my arms and he got so upset after he let go and then he punched the wall and took the plate of food that I had on the table and threw it up to the ceiling. Even the baby even if it was 7 months understood what he was doing. And I had her in my arms and when he was trying to apologize the baby went like this to him. Like pushed him. Pushed him away. I was like oh my god “you see” I said. “They understand”. Babies understand. And then he would um break my um if he got angry for something else I don't even remember he broke my laptop the one that i had since my ex got it for me I never told him that my ex got it for me. He broke that it was a Dell. He said he promised to get me another one so we went to um what's that place called in Woodbridge um in (unclear 00:51:09) Where they sell all the computers? I forget the name of it it’s not coming to me. 

00:51:16

A computer store it doesn’t matter (laughter)

Anyway yea. So we went there instead of getting me a new one he went and got himself a computer for himself he said “I’ll give you my old one” and it was like broken it was my mom was like “oh my god” he was with us because he wasn't driving at the time. She was like “[TCCDC resident] where did you find this guy?” (laughs) she's like “Seriously” and then he's cheap he would like give me like only seventy-two dollars or something like that for food shopping my mom was like “Oh my god [TCCDC resident]” she was laughing at me literally. And then when it came to getting married you know August 1st, 2012 I was like should I or shouldn't I? Something was telling me in my head don’t do it. Don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. But I did it. I went to New York, I went to city hall and I got married to the jerk. And then I was stuck I even called back and I said (Laughs) “Can I get this” (laughs) you know I remember (laughs).

[ Annotation 1 ]

You didn’t?

I didn’t

How soon after did you come back? 

Two days later (laughs), two days later I was stuck. 

So just to clarify the chronology here that was after? 

August 1st, 2012 is when I got married. 

After (unclear audio 00:53:04)

Yes. Yes. Yea

Um… uh.. Okay so

Which is screwed up I mean they shouldn’t. If you’re not married I don’t think that they should give uh any rights to the dad.

Yea, you said that before

Especially since it was from a different country so.

Yea his name is on the birth certificate he was at the infirmary

Yes and I wish he was and I wish I just went to a different hospital and just (laughed) and he would never and he was going there every day, every day from his job. He would go there for a little bit and stay there. I was wondering why he wouldn't go to work you know. 

Um.. so.. So would that like is he verbally abusive, physically abusive

Yea I mean he choked me again on um in 2003.. Oh 13, 13 sorry um on the staircase and then that’s when I I got, I had to get him back I pulled his hair and I pulled his hair while he was doing that because he had long hair. 

So 

And he would break my furniture. It was just an Ikea table (laughs) but he just broke it I mean he broke it in half. I’m like “Why do you break everything?” My mom would say to me “Call the police, call the police”. That day when he broke the um, the he threw the plate to the wall and choked me that day somebody called. Downstairs neighbor and um he. They were like you know the police would say “Tell me what happened” you know and I was still covering up and he said he was having a bad day and that’s why he took it out on me and everything because he thought I would say something and I didn’t I said “No no I’m fine”. I was covering up for him. And there is the report but nothing was done you know afterwards in 2014 fast forward with the case. Nothing was done about it. 

00:55:47

So.. after you know the hair pulling and stuff like that how did.. What happened next?

Um he just stopped and you know he just called me a name and walked into his room and that was it you know, he just stopped. He was a jerk, he was just a jerk. I couldn't like, without him insulting me and saying things like you know I would cook and he was never happy with my cooking whatever I did and even if it was good he would say “Oh you know what your mom probably came here and made it cause you suck cause you don’t know how to cook” and I was like “No I did cook it myself I did you know I have my cookbooks here and I just you know, I tried to make him happy. I was always trying to make him happy because it seemed like he was never happy with whatever I did. And that’s what I was trying to work on and then after that I gave up because he would always be insulted and I started to be like you know who cares. I just went to my garden. I would sit there, care about my flowers, my child, I would go out take her out for walks with the carriage around Highland Park. You know then we would go to TJ Max and go around there I don’t know I just.. Just as long as I’m away from him. Then I started to see things that were kinda strange. One time I walked up the stairs and he was lying on the bed with my daughter. And it, it, I don’t know if this has ever happened to you but you see them know how someone is doing something and then all of a sudden when you walk up there and you see them they go (gasp). Like you know like they’re shocked that you just came up there like you snuck up on them. But they were lying on the bed and I didn’t know what was going on. She was like 3. And then I don’t know I didn’t really pay attention to that but he would always take her showers with him and I kinda found that a little odd but I still didn’t say anything because you know there are some modern dads but I still found that a little weird. Cause she was still like.. But she was 3 and she was talking and you know she gets curious seeing you know seeing his penis I mean. And I said something I said you know, because my daughter when we went out the neighbor next door he said, his name was [Redactor 9] he said “Your daughter said something that her dad has a big ethylene”. I'm like oh my god. I'm like “She said that to you?” and he was like “Yea”. I’m like “That’s because he takes showers with her” and he said “He shouldn't be doing that, that’s wrong” he goes “He shouldn’t be” and I’m like “I know”. I talked to him after that I said “[Redactor 8] listen” i'm like “Don’t take showers with [Redactor 10] anymore okay just stop, you need to stop”. And he’s like “You guys are crazy, you Americans are nuts”. I said “I understand in Greece you guys walk around with your things out and everything (laughs) it’s not” and he’s goes “So what” he goes “So what”. I’m like “No it is a big deal” I said “She shouldn't be looking at your private spot” okay I was like “Stop”. He continued, he didn’t care. He was like “You Americans are crazy this and that”.

I felt like I couldn't do anything because he was the control guy he would control all of us in the house. Even my mother would be like “Look at him he doesn’t even help you with the supermarket, he doesn’t do anything but just controls you. Why don’t you just call the police and you know tell them what he’s doing to you with the choking?” and I'm like “I’m not going to do that mom”. And he would give me I mean if he took me to the supermarket this is crazy he gave me a half an hour to shop. Now mind you I would be going down the aisles quickly to find something to get and then when I wasn’t looking at the prices because he would give me a limit on how much I was supposed to spend. When it went a little bit above with his credit card he would get so pissed off. I’m like “Well you told me to fly through the isles” I said “What do you want me to do?”. This is the kind of you know shit that I was going through with this guy. And anyway one time again I was cooking. I was making it’s called Brian it's like uh vegetable type dish with meat, with beef.

[ Annotation 2 ]

And so he was um upstairs with my daughter and would say things like “Always leave her without a diaper, always leave her” and I'm like “No” I said “I'm not going to leave her without a diaper”. I didn’t listen to him. But he did it himself afterwards. So when he was upstairs with her that day, Um I saw him come down, he had a erection from his underwear, then my daughter was coming down without the diaper and I thought that was weird. And he grabbed me and pushed me into the bathroom so he can you know, relieve himself I guess so he just flipped me over and… And it’s like he didn’t want to, it was like if he wanted to have sex it was like 3 seconds (laughs) it was like I don’t even want to look at your face (laughs). And who cares how you feel you know. It wasn't like I was a human being I was just something for him to… And he barely, barely, we didn’t even sleep together. He had the master bedroom to himself he was smoking pot in there and with the door closed. I shared a room with my daughter because of that because I couldn’t I couldn’t stand I was like “Can you please stop doing that? We could get into so much trouble” I said “Our child can be taken away because you’re doing this shit in the bedroom” and I couldn’t do anything because he was in control and I was always afraid of that. And I didn’t know what to do and I told my mom about it finally and I was like “You know mom he smokes pot” and she's like “[TCCDC resident] where did you get this guy?” She goes “Why did you bring him here [TCCDC resident]? This is embarrassing”. She’s like “Oh my god” and then.. Come back to the bathroom thing you know with him doing whatever he did to me like tried to anyway I stopped him and I said I said and [Redactor 10] was outside of the door the door was closed because that scared her the whole thing. And so I said “Why is she out there without the diaper?” I said “Stop, why is she out there without a diaper again and here you are with a, with a, you know an erection?” and he got mad when I said that. He said “Fuck you” he goes. He goes upstairs and I didn’t like that you know I was like something weird is going on.

[ Annotation 3 ]

1: 04: 55

So my daughter one time she went in she slept over my moms house and she said “You know my daddy touches my pee pee and this is what he does” and she would sit there and describe to my mom what he does. And my brother was there too my brother [Redactor 11] and he was like “What the fuck?” and they called me and said “[TCCDC resident] call the police because this guy is molesting her. [Redactor 10] had just said something to us” and I didn’t know what to do. I said “What do you want me to do? How am I going to go about this?”. I didn’t want any problems, I didn’t want any you know. I said “You know what I suspected myself but I don’t know how to go about this” you know and I and [Redactor 11] was like “I am going to call the police myself if you don’t”. I'm like “Oh no whatever” I said “[Redactor 11] I don't want to get involved”. And then I went downstairs to my cousin and he said “Do you want to talk to a friend of mine? He's a cop and he can tell you what to do”. So the cop told me “Listen you have to go and report that because if you don’t report it they are going to say that you are an accomplice”. So I did that. And that’s when all the problems started. When I went to the police, Edison police, this nut, I guess they weren’t believing the whole thing and then DCPP was hard on me with this uh lady that was working for us, her name was [Redactor 12]. She was so pro him, like pro dad like all the time, like we wouldn’t expect anything else from her. Um I went through...

[ Annotation 4 ]

Could you give me examples?

Examples. Like when I showed her that he was doing some kind of like prostitution stuff like on email or you know um she would say things like you know “So what maybe he’s just trying to make an extra buck” and my mom and I were looking at each other like what the hell. I should have reported her. And I should have not said anything because she went and she told him exactly what was going on when I was going through his emails. I had the IPad, I had an Ipad that he had his facebook and emails in there and I even saw that he was planning. Well this is  this is after when he separated just to make things clear we were separated and I was living at my moms and I was looking through his uh email and his uh Facebook to see what he was saying to people

Just out of curiosity and then we can get back to this 

Mhm

Separation. How did that finally come about?

That came about with the uh police and uh DYFS. Because when you have a case like this they automatically separate you. They set you up for like you know, you already know that you are going to file for divorce too, get prepared. 

You were going through all those things and then to start.

Mhm.. yea

So then getting back to [Redactor 12]. 

[Redactor 12], she would, she went and she told him that I had uh I was aware about what he was writing, what he was doing on his emails, and stuff like that and she said for him to change everything. For some reason I think she also helped him by getting a green card. Uh afterwards a permanent visa cause he wasn’t a citizen yet. Um… 


Why do you think she did that?

Because she got paid I think. I think she got paid extra by the dad to um.. I don’t know I can’t but I think that’s what’s going on when they help the dads more. There’s also this thing called fathers coalition group for what I've been finding out later on and they help the dads you know with these kind of cases and they make the moms you know who are trying to protect the kids like they’re the enemy of the whole thing like they’re...

Yea. Let’s get back. You said as soon as you report you are made to look like an accomplice?

Yes, she said that to me

[Redactor 12] said that to you?

[Redactor 12] said to me “You cannot, she goes “You need, you need evidence, physical evidence to prove what happened”. And I said “Well how do you prove molestation you can’t over the clothing or anything like that or the grooming you can’t prove that”. She goes well “No that’s something you just have to live with”. So basically they are just giving us the message that it’s okay for the dad to do this, whether it’s true or not we don’t have to look into it, it’s going to happen. 

01:10:40

And when was this?

You have to live with it. This was when I got um evaluated and then in uh 2004


Fifteen

 2015 sorry


So you got evaluated to see (unclear)

Evaluated to see if I was crazy. They did, they did the same thing to him too. There was something wrong they saw that he had drugs he did drugs but that’s okay they gave him therapy. It’s fine. You know.


At this point where are you?

What do you mean?

Like are you, are you and your daughter are you guys living at your moms house or … you guys are separated at this point and you are being evaluated.

We are separated yea and he had supervised visits

Okay uh.. And then your, okay so that’s 2015

So


And you can say

I am going to fast forward a little bit toward the end of the whole thing after the whole divorce

Mhm

[Redactor 12] said “You cannot” uh like if you take her to a therapist she is going to be needing therapy “You cannot” uh “If something happens again if she says something just ignore it just say you know, sorry you know this is happening to you blah blah blah just let it go, okay?”. My lawyer on the other hand my divorce lawyer [Redactor 13] said don’t bring that up again if she does just you know ignore it because if you report anything again make any allegations they can take away your child from you. I’m like really.. I’m like so if he does it again I can’t say anything. No because if you make allegations again they can take your child away from you and it’s happened to a lot of moms for reporting abuse.

For reporting abuse they can take your child away?

Yes, yea if you if you...

And your own lawyer told you that?

Yes, yes he did

How.. What did you do?

Well when my daughter said things you know I kept my mouth shut because I couldn’t help her. But one time when she was 6 I told [Redactor 14] what she was saying but I didn’t think that [Redactor 14] would go and.. Report it to DYFS. She said that “I have to, that’s my job I have to”. And she did and I confronted her father. I called her father and I said “[Redactor 10] is saying this and that about you again”. And he goes “It’s you you are making her say these things, you’re making her say these things”. I’m like “It’s not me she said this”. But my mistake is that I put her to say like, I told her to tell him to tell him what she told me. 

You told her to tell your ex?

Yea and I said “[Redactor 10] what did you tell me? What did your father do to you”? And she goes “What do you mean?” You know. “You told me that your daddy touched you down there” and she goes “No” because she was aware that he was on the phone, you know “No I didn’t, no I didn’t”. I’m like see you’re the one and I’m the one and then I told DYFS that “She said nothing happened afterwards, she said it first that something happened” so then I look like the bad person in this whole situation again, I let it go. Um.. then at 7 at 7 1/2 again I saw my daughter, she was touching herself while she was doing her homework. I said to [Redactor 10] “What are you doing? I don’t like this”. She said “Mom, um, I want to talk to you about something” I said “What?” she goes “Daddy was touching me, he touches me all the time”. I was like “What do you mean, what happened?” and she goes “Well we were playing a game the last time we were playing a game and he you know he had me on his lap and this and this happened”. (Sigh). I was like “He, he touched me, he was touching me” he was rubbing her there she said. I said “Was it outside of the clothing or did he do something on the inside?” cause I want to know. And she goes “Outside of the clothing”. I said alright I was like um and it was Monday so she didn’t bathe she was still wearing the same underwear from Sunday when he had taken her. And I said “Can you please, this is the underwear, you were still wearing that underwear?” And she was like “yea”. I said “Take it off” I wanted her to take it off I put it in a bag and I just kept it like that. And I was asking questions to um a friend she was a prosecutor, [Redactor 15] and she said “You should put it in a paper bag not a plastic bag, a paper bag just in case”. I said “What am I going to do with it?” she says “You know” she goes “Just keep it, just keep it for evidence just in case, in case anything happens”. She says “why can’t you report it or anything like that and why don’t you do it? They won’t accuse you of anything”. I said “No, I'm afraid, I'm afraid to go and report things about you know”. Um [Redactor 10] wasn’t eating after that she wasn’t eating at all. I totally like ignored it I couldn't do anything about it she wasn’t eating I went to pediatrics with her and the doctor said she has to get she has to get a therapist has to see what is going on with her she wasn’t listening wasn’t doing good in school. So um, I got her a therapist. Just to see with the nutrition the whole nutrition and what is going on with her and um. And four months later I think it was, she said exactly what was going on to her therapist and she said what happened. And the therapist told me about it. And she said “Did you know about this [TCCDC resident]. I said yes I did and I said but I didn’t want to report it I said because “If I report it I could be accused of making up uh a story here”. And she said um, “You’re supposed to report these things whenever your child is telling you what’s going on you’re supposed to report, you can get in trouble. I can get in trouble” you know but I was so afraid to report. And then he would go again again she would say something to me again that happened in March again the same thing so basically and then I told [Redactor 16] about it and [Redactor 16] said “Well I have to report it” you know. I’m like “[Redactor 16] nothing is going to happen I said you can report we can report call DYFS we can do whatever” I said “Please stay..” I got, I got mad at [Redactor 16] too you know I’m like “Just stay out of it” I was like “They are not going to do anything about it you know, they are not going to do anything”. But my daughter had already said what happened back to the first, the first one she told me about with her homework. Her father was molesting her when we were doing homework together in 2018, was it 2018. And she said “Mommy we were playing a game and that’s what happened. He put me on one lap, he was playing with one hand and the other hand was rubbing my vagina”. Or she didn’t say vagina I don’t remember her private area whatever. And then I just kept quiet about it I kept quiet, what else can I do. I have become so desensitized with this whole thing. I know you’re probably thinking why isn’t she upset? You know upset crying with all of this going on? Because they made me think that it is a normal thing for her to be molested by her dad.

[ Annotation 5 ]

01:20:58

Can you explain more about that? How did they make you feel that way?

Because it, when they tell you you can’t report things you can’t report about it, it could be happening but you just gotta keep your mouth shut about it you just have to shut up you can’t say anything so.. We live in this world now thinking my mom, me, we think wow look at this country look at what it’s become so basically little kids have to get molested. It’s a normal thing, it’s normal it’s okay, for them to be molested by their dad. And then my brother asked, he is a cop, a police officer a corrections office. He asked DYFS over there in Hazlet about what’s going on with that. And they go you know basically what they’re doing now is when it’s the father of the child, the father is somebody that the child loves and they are very careful not to take away that love because it can cause psychological whatever from the child, but if it’s a stranger and I report it then they’ll do something about it. So if it’s a stranger doing it to your child they’ll do something about it but if it’s the father, the fathers  a whole different story. That’s what my brother gave me.

Right

To understand. 

So how um, how did you wind up here? At Town Clock.

Oh through Women Aware. Women Aware um because DCPP said you can’t live with your mother, um you have to be independent, you have to look for your own house.

Why did they say you can’t live with your mother?

You can’t live with..

Yea why did they say that?

Because you can’t be dependent on somebody else they want you to be independent to show that you know, you can take care of this child by yourself.

Mhm

So I had a job, I got a job, I went and I got a job I worked with my old boss.

Mhm

I was getting money from the government and um then when I went to Women Aware they helped me out with this place over here I was one of the first people. “I want to look for affordable housing, something” I said “I got to be on my own”. And they helped me.

[ Annotation 6 ]

What has that experience been like being here? I think you are one of the first people here right?

Yea it was, it was nice, it was I was thankful that I was here but we didn’t see what the programs were at first I wasn’t sure if they were really helping. 


Mhm

Although it was nice they were giving us Christmas presents every year, dinners, that was nice you know all the fun things that we did, but I didn’t expect this kind of help from them.

What kind of help have they given you? I guess what’s your experience

The biggest one is now with the lawyer because If I didn’t have a lawyer, if I wasn’t getting one um… I would’ve lost my child, he would have taken my child from me. 

1:25:47

So just to get this chronology you had this one lawyer [Redactor 13]

[Redactor 13] yes he was in um...

That was in 

He was, that was in, what’s that over there? It’s for people who cannot afford Lawyers. Uh I forgot the name of it and I went to them for help and they wouldn’t give me anybody else. [Redactor 13] was going against me for the other case where he wanted to take my daughter off to Japan and of course he would never bring her back because Japan’s rules are different. Even if they are part of the hate treaty they never bring back children from western countries or anything like that. The parent if they are American citizen Canadians or anything like that they will never bring them back because they don’t believe in um like uh custody and all of this custodial parents and all that stuff. So my daughter would be stuck over there basically and he tried to make her a Greek citizen too on top of that behind my back.

So it’s almost two and I think we can talk more, and I think we need another hour

It’s a long story

It’s great it’s great and the way you are laying out everything is really really helpful but i think this last piece is.. Needs a little more time. So we should do this again I think next week

Okay


Just because the part that is so important is from [Redactor 12] until now 

Yes 

And all of those

All of the things.

Little pieces to go in more depth because there is this gap that I have between what’s happening in Town Clock with all the little twist and turns

Yea because my thoughts go from one thing to another.

It’s fine it’s totally fine because actually you’re really good at it (laughs). You have gotten this fantastic chronology and you can see how all of this.. It’s good. Um when you have a chance because I think it’s uh you’re good at telling the story of your life like it’s really like it's amazing but I think it’s like this last part 

Well just try to see if you want to question me about anything about you know.

Yea, no I will. So this is going to be transcribed also just thinking about how your childhood is linked up.

01:28:04

Are you recording?

Now I’m recording

So even if, if my daughter was you know I said to her that I cannot help her with whatever was going on in her fathers house with her dad. I said “I cannot help you, I cannot do anything to help you because if I go say anything what are they, what do they say to me? They say that I’m telling you to say these things. I'm the one who you know is the bad person in this situation. I’m the bad person trying to separate, trying to separate you from your dad” I said “I can’t I can’t help you”. I said “You are on your own” I said to [Redactor 10] I can talk like this with my kid in order for her to do something because these therapist she went to a therapist I don’t know what these therapist have told her from a long time ago how to, how to go about it when this happens. Because even that therapist believed back then when she was 3 ½ that she was going through this. But the judge didn’t believe the judge didn’t want to believe the judge decided to go by DYFS opinion as if they’re the experts here.

Who was this judge?

Uh I forget his name

It was judge council 

No it wasn’t judge council he was more of the divorce lawyer the family

Okay 

Court lawyer the other one was uh I forget his name i forgot his name i’ll have to go through my paper work. Um… but I told her I said I cannot help you and I also got upset with her. I had got upset with her because I thought that my daughter was actually enjoying her experience with her dad, you know whatever he was doing to her because she was doing it to herself when she was home. I saw it you know and it was like in front of me and I’m like. And then she was doing things I’ll show you some pictures of how she, she cuts her clothes up and they say this is normal. Not to me this is not normal. She wants to be sexy and the poses and she acts like an adult. I mean even the therapist here saw how she talks she’s like “She talks like an adult”. 


Mhm

She tells me off, you know. She tells me to shut up she tells me, the way she talks. But since she is acting this way I think she’s I think to me if she can talk this way she is old enough to go and report something, but at the same time I mean she has a love for her dad right. I mean she loves her dad and no matter what he does even if he does this to her they say that it's, they think that it could be part of the whole loving thing.

Right

But all I can do is say “[Redactor 10] what he’s, what he’s doing to you is not good, this is not a good thing I’m sorry [Redactor 10] but it is not good”. I can’t help you I said in this situation though. I have to talk to my child like she's like a student or something like that I don’t know.


Yea, yea

Not like my old child where I can be a blanket for her, protect her. I can’t protect her. This is the thing that they put me through. 

Do you think?

The only thing I can do is just get pissed off.

Yea. Do you think that there was something recently that changed a little bit though... 

Yes because with DCPP after what was reported still they can DCPP came by told me the usual stuff “You’re delusional, you’re coaching” the famous word that detective used back in 2013. They are always using that stupid work coaching. You’re coaching her [TCCDC resident]. “Oh I've heard that I said before I heard that it’s like candy In your mouth” I said and “I’ve read other cases” I said and “this is what you guys we’re always coaching, coaching, coaching, coaching, or we are also delusional we’re crazy just like [Redactor 17] mom, and then her son ended up dead”. She was delusional too she was crazy those articles they use those cute little words. Delusional

When did you first hear?

Coaching

When did someone first tell you about coaching?

Alienation

Yea

Those were the three beautiful words they used to fix their case and make the mother look like a monster.

When did somebody first tell you was that [Redactor 13]? It sounds like immediately you were told basically don’t report this stuff. 

No he just warned me, I think he was trying to protect me. You know from losing my kid he says “Don’t report it you know don’t report these things anymore because if you report it they can take your kid away from you... “.

Yea

“With these allegations”. So i’m like “What happens if my kid says something again, what am I going to do?”. “Just keep your mouth shut don’t say anything anymore” i’m like oh okay. 

I just want to pin it because we picked up after [Redactor 13], [Redactor 12] because then the...

[Redactor 12] just said we cannot do anything about it because there’s no evidence there’s no physical evidence so if there’s no physical evidence they are not going to do anything to him. 


Right. And just time stamping [Redactor 13] was … when did you use him as an attorney?

That was for the divorce. [Redactor 12] was afterward a week after when I found a therapist for [Redactor 10] and she does listen when you go to the therapist here if she says something again she goes “You cannot” you know “Ignore it just don’t say anything anymore”.


Mhmm

Just don’t say anything anymore just don’t start this again. I said “You know what I don’t want you in my business here. When I’m taking my child to a therapist I deserve to take my child to a private therapist and I don’t want your stupid ass here because you always ruin everything, the investigation you ruined everything”. 

Okay we are going to stop it there

Part 2

1:36:00

[Redacted], I have [Redacted] I had...

Oh my gosh alright. So this is part 2 I had with my interview with resident from Town Clock and um the last, where we left off the last time was basically when your marriage ended to your second husband and you were brought here you came here to Town Clock um, so. And is this the first residence you came to after?

Yes
Yea and that was like 2016?

Yes

Okay okay, so can you tell me a little bit about what the transition was like?

Um, I liked it in a way because I thought I, you know I needed my home I need my privacy.


Mhm keep talking

Because I also had my mother who was you know always and she still does today like still telling me like what she thinks her always talking to me about the whole situation I didn’t want to talk about it sometimes you know i'm very to myself and I needed my privacy and I needed my space. Away from everybody.

And so the space was important?

Yes it was.


Um what other things did they provide for you?

Um well they provided a lot of programs which were very helpful and until this day they are very very helpful. And I have to say I thank Dina’s Dwellings for all the things they have done for me especially for my place and all the things that they still do Christmas gifts um. 

Mhm

Helping us with the standing on our own two feet. By giving scholarships by giving some kind of help no matter what it’s still there you take your time with everything you need and when you are ready, they will help you. This is the greatest organization here. 

Mhm. How do you know what are the moments you felt like you were ready to make another move? You know like you have been here for like three years now or just um, you're just saying you were saying that um they are a great organization because they help you transition in different ways. 

Yea I feel safe here

And you feel safe. I guess what I'm saying here is, have there been... What have been moments that you needed their help and they have been able to give? 

Yes

Like specifically what?

Uh with right now I was shocked that the help that I got with my case. Uh you know in getting a lawyer financially they helped me out with this and I am very thankful I cannot ask for you know. Who would have done this? Who would have done this for me and if I didn’t have that help I could have lost my daughter to the abuser. 

Because this is actually a good segue to your first lawyer. So your first lawyer was telling you to keep things quiet?

Yes. yes.

1:40:41

because of this alienation tactic thing where the stuff that you were saying is against you

I have an idea now that all of these lawyers are actually saying that we have to keep our mouths shut basically when it comes to our children saying something to us and also it seems like they’re making the children look like they’re liars. Okay like I went to one lawyer that I was looking for before [Redactor 18], and her name was [Redactor 19] and even before him um. Sorry about my phone. I had a lawyer over here and I forgot his name. [Redactor 20]. He told me that “You know what children will say things and we can't believe them and sometimes we have to ignore what they say because they lie”. And then to my surprise [Redactor 19] the other lawyer said the same thing also. “Children lie”. I think this is the thing that they have now in the court system where everybody has to say that children are lying, that they are not saying the truth. Well how do they know they are not saying the truth? What if the child is saying the truth. Do we just “Oh you’re lying?” the DCPP person his name was [Redactor 20] and I'm going to say his name I don’t care he was right here in front of the other people, in front of the advocate in front of um uh the advocate [Redactor 14] and [Redactor 21] the pastor here, and they heard him say and I wasn’t here but he said to my daughter “Are you lying about you know what happened with you and your dad?”. She said “No”. It’s like you don’t say that to a child to make them feel like..

He said that right in front of [Redactor 21] and [Redactor 14]?

Yes and another DCPP person and she took over and my daughter said that she questioned her better. She was more sensitive to what [Redactor 10] was going through but the other one [Redactor 20] was so insensitive to how he questioned her. Like “Are you lying?”. You don’t say that to a child

Right so when was that when did that happen? 

That was this winter time this past year.

Oh this winter?

This past year, yea.

I totally got off course since the beginning of this interview

I can’t give you dates because I’m not good with the dates.

Just I think it’s important to get the chronology

It started off in September through January around there you know and they were they were, and once your child says something like this you have to go report it and I told you that I was afraid to report anything because you’re not really supposed to report because if you did report you are really gagged because you're not supposed to say anything and nobody really is supposed to know about that you know that’s what the rule is you’re gagged. And the more allegations you make the more they will say you’re delusional you’re crazy you’re whatever and you have to get a psychiatric evaluation and the father but the father they are very easy on the dad.

Mhm

Who you know, he’s the good guy I’m the bad person who hears from my child about abuse so if I go report I'm delusional and I need to get evaluated.

So did that happen to you?

Yes, it did and a lot of mothers have gone through that and that needs to stop.

So what was that experience like?

That was scary because you, you would think that because this is the United States of America, um America is known to listen to victims of crime. We all know that, everyone believes that, but recently it looks like the court system has changed and we’re back to having women, from what I saw from Women Aware after their divorces even if they were married to abusive husbands or whatever, they um still had to go through that abuse whether they liked it or not

What, what do you mean by that they still had to go through abuse?

Yea they whether you like it or not they still, I don't know how to explain it. So you have to put up with it like if that persons abusive we’re sorry but he has a problem. Is he a stalker? Is he still stalking you? Because I noticed that a lot of women had children with their abuser mostly not the ones that were you know they could separate from the ones, they don’t have children with and the ones who did have children they had problems. They were still being stalked, they were still you know being abused, threatened, whatever. 

1:47:15

Yea let's get back to your evaluation because I think it’s important to keep it on you because it’s your story not everyone else's.

Yes my story. Yes there are other women I know who have gone through the same things as me.

So, so, the process is like so let's frame this in terms of time when you get here 2016 first you’re kinda just you now using the space to be alone and kind of just be safe. Does that sound right?

Yeah, well I don't think he will be able to threaten me here.

Yea but still you have shared custody at this point

I have shared custody the only person being threatened is my daughter.

Right, right

The only thing he is doing to me even so he got married to a person who lives in Japan and has a child with her now. He still has his one foot here to control and his other foot over there to control. It’s like “I'm here and I’m here and I'm going to control”. And it's like I can't move on with my life because he has control over the child and they allow him too and he has control over there too. I don’t know how.

Right so he has gotten remarried, you’re here you're trying to figure out what to do, and he wants to take her out of the country.

He does that was the main reason why he said he wanted to change the whole vacation he whole divorce agreement. The real reason we had discussed this in person a long time ago I don't want my child going to Japan I said “Because I know I have read about Japan”. I have told him straight to his face “The child will not come back because Japan has different laws”. And I said “I know you’re going to do that, you are never going to bring her back” and he goes “Yes I will, yes I will”  and I go “No you won't. I didn't trust you then with what you did with me and my family” I said “I'm not going to trust you now”.

Mhm. And so at what point, so you’re going back and forth with this...

Plus the fact.. Plus the fact that 

Yea

This was like a long time ago when he was saying this and actually he was talking about taking her to Greece at first

Mhm

And I even have it in text messages he said he wants his child to grow up in Greece have an education over there like, he really cares he didn’t have an education for himself his parents didn’t make him get an education he was selling drugs.

Mhm

I can’t prove any of that but yes I know and if I had any friends to have friends, I do have friends they can talk to you personally about how he was.

Mhm. Yea, yea. 

I even heard stories where he would carry a knife in school and threaten kids with their money. That's how bad he is. 

Mhm

Um and he left home was he was 15.

So, you’re, so he’s threatening all of these things, you’re here and this first thing with this lawyer goes badly, the first lawyer you had, how did that...

How did that go badly?
Yea

Well he said to me he said “listen” he goes “if your daughter says to you that her father molested her or something like that just don’t you know just let it go don’t go reporting because if you have another case going they can take your daughter away from you”. I was like “Really I didn’t know…”

Yea

“...know that”

Yea so that’s kind of that sees like a bombshell there

It is

When you said that last week that kind of seemed like everything changed after that with your behavior towards how you are going to handle this

Mhm
So at what point after that were you psychologically evaluated?

When it happened again

Mhm

Like when she reported to the therapist that her dad had molested they took it all slowly, dad has to get evaluated, mom has to get evaluated, they both get evaluated and they let it go after that. Then again it happened again so, um mom we need to get you evaluated because he said that he got from my therapist the um, where I go on George Street over here, I had talked to her about what my child is going through and she said I have to call DCPP. This lady got fired anyway because she’s not supposed to be reporting things about me. There's a HIPPA law. He said that she said, she was worried about me you know because I was crying. Maybe I was crying about the whole thing, I never said anything dangerous or whatever.

1:53:37

Mhm

Um, but that was I don’t know if that was a lie or not either way that lady got fired. Because I complained and a lot of other people complained about her and I know somebody in the building here, she made some other claims about her she had the same one and definitely they threw her out.

Claims against the women?

Yea that we’re delusional that we’re crazy that we’re this that we’re that. You can’t, see, this is what I'm realizing too you cannot have emotions you cannot cry you have to be insensitive you have to show you can’t express any feeling worry or anything about your child. You can talk casually about your child but if God forbid you cry, or you know show this emotion they are going to think you’re crazy, I don’t get that. 

Um so, okay you were talking last week that therapist that testified on your daughters behalf and how she’s, was that one of the therapist you were talking about or is that another point [Redactor 22], was that [Redactor 22]?

[Redactor 22]. She said..

And when was this?

This was a long time before when she was little. She said “[TCCDC resident] listen I believe your daughter was molested the problem is is that um they don’t take the children seriously and um what you have to do is just you know when your daughter says these things that you just have to just, you know you just have to keep her in therapy teach her that these things are not right whatever dad does or whatever is not correct”. She said she had another client that was doing the same thing. 

Mhm

But the child with the father, the child actually was used to the whole thing that she even enjoyed going into bed with him.

Mhm

The whole thing was going on and the mother couldn’t do anything about it. 

Mhm

Because DCPP they’re at fault here for allowing these things to happen and whatever DCPP says, the judge agrees with it you know and he goes with their word. 

Mhm

No psychotherapist no whatever they don’t they don’t mean anything. They are just extras just in case but DCPP and the law guardians the law guardians I don’t know what the hell they are, they’re correct.

1:56:48

How did that happen? How did that, how did that end up happening in your life?

It happened because [Redactor 22] who was the therapist in my case for my child, she’s an expert she went to Rutgers University she studied. Now how does how does a DCPP worker who only had I don’t know how much 7 weeks training I don’t know how long the training is and they are so unprofessional.

Yea

Okay has more of a say and more like of what they think about what the child went through. 


So now I want to fast forward a little bit toward more to just being here and maybe how things have changed just a little bit so, so you’re here for.. When...

I know where you’re getting at. I am glad that I am in here because I if I wasn’t in here okay and I didn’t have [Redactor 14] and [Redactor 21] to listen to DCPP, and thank god they said when DCPP comes in you bring them up here so we can hear what they’re saying because we have to protect you and your daughter, okay so there’s ears there's witness. They just came in here and they didn’t like it. They felt they should be in my house and just me and them so they can say whatever they like, make up something and then go on their way and make you look like you’re crazy. Because at first they did question my daughter, my daughter did give them answers the door was wide open in the bedroom. And then they denied whatever my daughter said to them. “She didn’t say anything”. I’m like “Yes she did”, you have to record these people. 

Mhm, yea

Because they can lie they’re allowed to lie.

Yea, did you record them?

I did not record them 


I don’t know if they recorded but they were there?

But they should be recorded, it should be a law that these DCPP workers should be recorded.

So they were there when the DCPP people came, did they also accompany you to court?

Mhm

So what was the chronology there? So DCPP comes here and then you get a new lawyer...

Mhm

And then they come here

They came here to get me, I have been evaluated in July this was in 2019.

So last year when you were evaluated

Yup. Then after that they asked me to do it in the winter time of 2019 they’re like “Well we need to get you evaluated again”.


Another evaluation 

I’m like why… Why do I need another evaluation? 

Yea

That doesn’t make sense

Mhm

“You want me to be crazy is that it? You want to prove that I am nuts or something?”. They called me delusional in court they called me Schizophrenic my mouth dropped when I heard these things. How does Bipolar like go from the whole Bipolar Disorder thing go from delusional, schizophrenic, whatever? Are these people doctors so they can say something like that?

[ Annotation 7 ]

2:00:45

Mhm, yea

Anyway, I spoke to my doctor, I told her the whole thing and she says “[TCCDC resident] I don’t see anything wrong with you, you know what it is? It’s just you’re depressed you’re having post-traumatic you know from all the things that happened to you in your life and that’s why and people get to you and..”

Mhm, so in court these guys come with you, [Redactor 14], and you're called delusional in court. Were they there with you when this was happening? 

Yes, [Redactor 15] was, 

Uh huh

I was, I think [Redactor 21] was there too. I was like what? Delusional?


Do you feel like they offered support for you?

No. Who?

[Redactor 21], [Redactor 15], and them

Oh Absolutely, they were there for me but even more so with the lawyer. 


Do you feel like it was hard? So what’s different about this lawyer, what’s different than the last lawyer?

Uh well, what's different. Here’s what I think is different. In my opinion he's more a professional lawyer, he is one that is not, he is part of the organization I think but that doesn't mean anything cause at one point [Redactor 21] did offer for me to have a long time ago but the thing is he was too much money and I could not afford [Redactor 18] so I was looking for somebody else you know. They offered, the organization offered [Redactor 15] to help me out. They said take [Redactor 18] and I did take [Redactor 18] and it didn’t matter how much and now I feel safer because I have a professional lawyer that is you know, he’s protecting my daughter he is doing this for my daughter too.

So how is this, how, how’s, so recently there was I don’t know what you feel comfortable talking about but there was a new ruling right that there was, so where are you at right now basically in court like what’s happening? 

Well right now we’re getting 3 experts

2:03:29

Mhm

The one is paid half paid by him my ex and half by me, well [Redactor 15], and um the other two [Redactor 15] had agreed to get two more so that way we get a fair you know.

So what is, are you asking at this point for sole custody?

I didn’t ask for it yet but yes we are asking for supervised visits indefinitely because we can’t prove physical evidence but what we can prove is you know from her witnesses over here, because I wasn’t here when [Redactor 10] was talking to them, they heard exactly what [Redactor 10] said what happened, so I wasn’t in the room. She has her therapist who she spoke to and of course her therapist believes [Redactor 10] too. There were other therapist, I mean they can’t sit here and blame me every time this happens you know and they turn around and use the famous words coaching, delusional, uh you know it’s getting old, it's like candy in their mouth and they do this a lot to other people. This has to stop.

[ Annotation 8 ]

Mhm

Because if the father is grooming okay and he’s doing as an expert outside of the clothing in the beginning well that’s still dangerous. You know, you’re still screwing up your child and if the child is saying what’s going on they have to take it seriously, not sit there and play games with the person or the messenger, the person who has heard it from the child. Basically they are telling us “Keep your mouth shut” “Oh this is happening just leave it leave it alone. Keep her in therapy”. That’s not going to help.

Yea

That’s going to be worse for all children that are going through this.


So, was there a recent change in your case? I remember you telling me that something good happened (laughs) basically I just wanted to follow up on it. Like she’s not going out of the country?

Yes, we got the state appeal with [Redactor 18] thank goodness.


Do you attribute that to [Redactor 18]?

Yes, because we had to get the state appeal because he was still doing what he was doing to her, and the other lawyer, his lawyer is trying to say that I was using this, the abuse thing so I can stop him from taking her on a trip. This was a long time ago, this thing happened before he decided to take me to court to take her to Japan. I didn’t expect it, in September I got a letter I had to go to court.


In September you got a letter that you had to go to court because he wanted to take her out of the country?

Mhm

This is all

Last year
And so finally you won that case basically?

Yes, and to get a state appeal that’s expensive, it’s very expensive.

2:07:30

So now you’re asking for, the next step is visits, it’s supervised visits?

Yes, yes and now that my daughter I don’t know as of late, two weeks now, she doesn't want to go over there to her dad. I am not talking to her and the last time she says “I don’t want to go to him I don’t want to go over there I don’t like it there”. I’m like okay [Redactor 10] I said “I am not getting involved, and [Redactor 14] agreed with me over here on that”. [Redactor 18] wasn’t so agreeable on it he said “No it’s up to the two adults you guys have to tell her that she has to go to her dads”. And I said “Okay but I don’t want to get involved with this”. I said “I want her to discuss this with her dad” and I had him on speaker phone too. And so she said to him “I don’t want to go” and the reason was why? Because of the computer. She wanted to play with her computer. And but still, still, like the narcissist that he is he turned around and said “[TCCDC resident] you told her to say this”. And I’m like “Nope not at all stop blaming me, I know you like to blame me but nope it had nothing to do with me you just heard her why, because she said she wanted to stay and play with her computer. It has nothing to do with me”. 

Mhm

I said don’t involve me and then he blamed her. Then afterwards he said you know “it was your fault” he said to her. And he actually said to her, this is my time, you are trying to take away my time. It’s like he’s arguing with her about, he doesn’t even know how to talk to the child. If it was me in my case if my child didn’t want to see me. Okay. I would let her you know, okay my feelings are hurt that you don’t want to spend time with me but okay, if you want to then that’s, I’m not going to force my child I don’t want my child to hate me or not like me anymore if my presence is that bad for her then, or whatever

So, just to get back to um, when were you granted the stay?

Recently it was last month

That’s in May?

May


Yea, and COVID happened and everything shut down. Can you talk about how that’s changed everything for you. 

(Sigh) COVID uh, I don’t know it just in a way it kind of saved me in a way with my case

What happened?

But still it’s not July yet and people can still travel in July. He could have still taken her in July if he didn’t get the state appeal. But nobody was allowed to travel then back then in the beginning. Now I don’t know. That’s how I thought it saved me, but it didn’t really.

Yea, right you still got.. you won the case

Yea I won the case from uh.. I still got the state appeal because we are still going to go and fight for this to protect my daughter because I don’t want my daughter being molested anymore by, he has made it a normal thing in her life and I know that it happens and it’s like who cares you know. And I have become so insensitive with the thing it’s like a part of you know everyday life whatever. I mean he doesn’t from what I know he doesn’t do it all the time it’s sometimes I guess whenever he feels he had the need to.

Mhm, yea

But my daughter doesn't really, she doesn’t discuss what happens between he and her. She is a very private person when she says something she’ll say it, but then she won’t want to tell you again. Like if you ask her so what really happened tell me exactly what happened she doesn't want to discuss it.

How, let me turn off the recorder for a second. Okay so, do you found I guess kind of a crucial piece of evidence from your daughter a couple week ago really

Yea, she um, well let’s backtrack a little bit. She said that something happened again in March and it was like May already. I said how come you didn’t tell me anything about it? Like I said she doesn’t want to discuss what happened. And some kids, it’s not just her a lot of kids do that from what I know. And now, okay so when we came back from the department, I’m sorry no backtrack, the night that they brought us, no the night that DCPP came they said to me that night we are going to go to the department and that night I went on [Redactor 10]’s computer and I saw a little thing where the art stuff is and I was like oh this is interesting maybe I should you know. And I saw these weird pictures. I didn’t get what those were, what they were all about. The one looked like a person with long hair, I'm sorry it looked like they were either pissing on a child. The other ones were a picture of a behind taking a crap, another looks like, was it a, yea it was a crap, um feces, blood, and pee on somebody. I don’t know where she got those from where she gets these ideas. Um.. but the other two the one with that one person with the long hair kind of spooked me out because I didn’t know what the stuff was that was going on the child.

[ Annotation 5 ]

02:16:17

Right, so you found these drawings, you can’t unsee them they are very graphic in their own way

They are but we don’t know what they are.

Yea because kids can draw anything absolutely, but you submitted them

I submitted them, I gave them to the detective the next day for them to see. 

Do you think the detectives, was that maybe a turning point?

I don’t know, I have no idea but for proof I do have similar drawings that those are hers you know and I didn’t discuss anything with my daughter about me seeing them she doesn’t know and that I have copies of them. Because I don’t want her to go and erase them she’ll freak out and erase them and that is proof that something is going on. 

Yea, and you were saying before that you felt that’s the thing that they system is kind of doing to you. In another world you would have just confront her and talked to her about the drawings and what they mean

Right

But because you are involved with the court system you have to keep quiet

Yup, because I’ll get blamed. I’m the bad person here too in the situation, actually I'm the only bad person not the person doing whatever he’s doing, he’s the victim too, he’s the victim

Right, so 

And in the process the messenger that is getting this information from the child, the child is victim because I am driving them crazy

Mhm

And then I'm making the father look like he is a person that he is not.

Right, so back to being in lockdown right now, actually no you were saying something really interesting before you said your case changed when you changed counties. You were in Piscataway and now you’re it’s in 

Monmouth County. Yea it did change and I was like shocked I was like wow, this is different.

So this first case was in

In Edison

In Edison okay

And that was the one with the earlier lawyer

Yea

What i’m realizing is that, but [Redactor 14] told me the advocate she said that she says a lot of DCPP’s she goes are way different than others, she said the ones in Newark they care, the caseworker that I had they are very caring over a child, but the ones over here the biases against moms was disgusting. I don’t know if it was because I had some bad caseworkers but it seems like I always get the bad bunch.

02:19:36

So recently your case changed to Monmouth country, tell me about that experience what was different about it?

They cared, they told me no mom you are not the bad person here. I said you know I told them the whole thing that I was frightened you know I was afraid that I might get accused. That was the first thing that came out of my mouth because this is what the whole deal is.

Mhm

You get accused, you’re the bad person once you report something, you report something you’re bad even [Redactor 18] told me, [Redactor 18] told me “Of course they are going to accuse you, absolutely they are going to accuse you, you are the first person that’s going to go down”.

But Monmouth handled it differently?

They handled it differently. They questioned my daughter, they questioned me and it came out, hey this is, you’re right. Whatever she had said to you, it is correct and she had said whatever she had said to you. 

Mhm

You know and it was right, there was no, and I was like I have nothing to hide.

Right, so it seems

And I'll tell you another incident over here going back. My daughter had a two week vacation with her dad at his house.

Mhm

They were somehow playing I guess that’s what my daughter had said, playing. He picked her up and made bruises right on her arms and bruising all over her body. But the thing is that what she told DCPP here that when he picked her up he was forcible trying to get her head hit on the headboard. I don’t think that’s playing around. You know the way he was tossing her around. She said and she got scared. And he wasn’t listening to her. There were other times that she told me about how he would take her to Great Adventures or was it something like that um what’s it called water park. And he would like put her deep in the pool and would let her go and he told her that she can’t where any of the um, what do you call them.

Floaties

And that would scare her. It scared her and she would tell me “Mommy he would do this and im scared”. You know I called him and I said can you do me a big favor. She is aying this that and that can you please stop, if she doesn't feel comfortable. He goes “You're scaring her, I want her to be fearless”. I said but “Yea she’s a child she could panic and she could drown”. Things like that he is like testing he wants to test her wants to make her to be a daredevil like or something I don’t know. But I don’t’ know what’s going on in his mind what he wants to do.

02:22:54

But it sounds like in terms of the new court case it seems like things are tilting in your favor right now.

It seems so but still it seems like we have a long way to go depending on what the experts think if they believe her I don’t know if they will believe her or not. Like you know in this.. Because.. 

What ‘s the timeline on that?

Not believe her but prove that she, that this is actually happening to her.

Mhm. So right now you just won this thing and now you are going to go back to court to request supervised visitation which would be really difficult for him. Right I mean to have an extra person there is logistically going to be tricky. Especially with COVID right. 

Um.. with a third party 

Mhm

Until she grows up. 

Mhm

And again, when she grows up I mean I don’t know, see this is what I don’t get. When a child. Let’s say she grows up now and this is actually happening to her and she finally says as a little bit of a grown up yes this was actually happening. Because she won’t forget, she won’t forget she’ll remember. What is he going to say then? 

Right

What is he going to say, how is he going to, isn't he going to be embarrassed? I am going to end up suing these people. I am going to sue DYFS. I am going to sue the court for what happened to my child and what happened to me because I got traumatized with this whole thing, calling me crazy calling me this calling me that.

Mhm

And my daughter a liar. What happens when she grows up and she says these things have actually happened to me. Because other kids have gone through the same thing as they grew up with different circumstances because the father was abusive and they, they come out what happens?


And you said before I don’t know if this was the interview before. But you said what if she confronts me about that? What happens when she grows up and says “Mom you knew about this”

Yea “You let it happen”, of course.

02:25:56

Right

But that’s happening already now, but the child is reacting in a different way. But you know who told me that, Debbie the therapist. Because we are seeing these patterns where she is being aggressive, rebellious, and all her anger is going towards me.

Mhm

Because while the judge makes his judgement and these people, they don’t have to live through it, I do. Okay and I am the one who is giving her to the abuser. They are giving me the responsibility to give her to the abuser. And who feels guilty for doing that? Me. And in my child’s eyes I am the bad guy. “You knew mom”, and you have to pretend… “No, you have to go to your dad!” This is me, this is what I have to say. “You have to go to your dad whether you like it or not [Redactor 10]”. I have to play a fake role. If it was up to me I wouldn’t let that bastard have her.

Right, so um right now you’re going to go through this next court file...

Yes

How long do you foresee this taking? Do you have any idea how long this will take?

I don’t know with this whole COVID 19 thing I don’t know how long it will take. I don't know when they are really officially going to open up because I noticed that even doctors offices are still closed. I don’t know how it’s going to be with courts. 


What, did they they did have your last court case they just didn’t have it in person

It was over Zoom.

Are they planning to have court cases like that?

I don’t know. But it doesn’t work like that. I mean that’s not a way to have a court case.

Why not?

I mean the judge at the supreme court said we can’t have a court case like this I don’t know via Zoom. I don’t know how, maybe now they made it more you know possible to have a court case like that but I don’t know.


So everything is kind of delayed with COVID right now I mean it’s really hard to tell a timeline

Yea

Um, what.. So you’re spending a lot of time indoors I mean we all are right now (laughs). What, and then, and your daughter is there with you

Mhm

What is the situation?

In the house right now with my daughter

Yea

Uh, it’s no good. My daughter is not, when I told her she has to pay attention with her schoolwork. And then we had an incident when for at least three weeks we didn’t have internet.

02:29:34 

Mhm

For her to, I mean I couldn't hook her up with her Chromebook and we had to get a new one and even if we got a new one we were trying to hook it up to the Dina Dwellings wifi and it wouldn’t. [Redactor 14] tried to adjust it but you had to go to a certain spot or it wouldn’t work. It was hard for her to do her homework, she missed a lot, and now she’s behind with fractions, with everything. And I can’t even help her because I don’t even remember how to do these things. And I explained to her teacher you know I hope there is summer school so then that way she can you know maybe you can help her out again. Then they sent us a survey about whether we want traditional school with mask or half half traditional, I don’t know how they’re going to change that. But I can’t, I had her in a special class because she wasn’t even paying attention back then. 

Mhm

She didn’t want to do her school work. Even if she did, when we did her homework together she wouldn’t hand it in. It’s like she’s in a whole different world. 

So

And now I have issues with her, like she doesn’t want to, she doesn’t want to do her homework she says I can’t do it. And I can’t do it for her obviously, even if I did it and I opened up a GED book and I sit there and I do it myself I mean that’s, when she goes to school they’re going to think “Oh well I thought you knew how to do this”. She needs help. Um… and I can’t help her. I'm not a teacher. 

Yea, so what do you feel like...

And she’s not eating. She is spending a lot of time on her computer and she’s playing games. That’s dangerous I prefer, I mean these kids needs to be around other kids they need to be social otherwise they are going to be destroyed inside with this COVID 19 thing it’s destroying them.

Do you think, um… What do you think, so your housing right now you pay a certain amount of money for rent each month um and, but is it livable like you can afford it right now?

Yea it’s more like a sliding scale 

Yea, in terms of and you said they got you a lawyer here. Do you wish that there were things that Town Clock Dina’s Dwellings can provide you right now that they are not? Like if you could..

Um… when everything is over with my case.. Well right now I do want a scholarship I wish I could get a scholarship because I really need a career, I need to start over I need to stand on my own two feet. And of course with housing which they did provide and I missed out on the one in New Brunswick but I do have to stay here because I still have my case. I don’t know how long this is going to case. But I need to go back to school.

So you’re working towards a scholarship right now. 

Yea, I want to do something first and then when i'm ready I will be on my own and I’ll leave. You know I'm trying my best.

Yea, I totally understand. So, how does it feel to not have a timeline? You know like nobody is saying you have to go.

You have to go?


Like nobody is saying that to you like like here there is no timeline that is what separates it from a lot of

Well you need to, when you have these types of problems you need to take your time you know.

Yea yea

There is no telling when this is going to be over I wish it was over. 

02:34:36

Yea

Then I'd focus on me I can focus on me and then my child can be, I’d have have her with somebody so she can get educated more I want her to be with her friends her cousins I want her to play, I want her to be I want her to have fun, I want her to have a social life. With what’s going on with the COVID-19 I hate it. This one thing is depressing me it's making me depressed because I feel guilty that we’re, even if it's not my fault that we have to stay inside and that my daughter doesn’t have anything.


Do you think there is anything as an organization at Town Clock that can do to help with this? I don’t know what that would be but it’s so ugh. Everybody’s going through this but I can imagine it could be very isolating in here. 

It is, but I don’t know. If there were things that we could do outdoors or something with the kids that would be nice.

Mhm, yea

Get away.

Yea (laughs)

Like last year when we went on a mini vacation thing I don’t know if you know about it but they took us uh it was with the YMCA in Bergen County. Yea that was nice that was a nice getaway.

So what happened? What did they do?

We just stayed, uh, in these cabins and we had like I don’t know they had like um a bonfire they took us ride with the boats something with a boat, boat rides. We had good food, just the area it was nice and clean yea the trees it was beautiful. I wanted to move out there I was like can I move out here it was so nice.

So was that Dina’s Dwellings?

[Redactor 15] did that and I wouldn’t mind doing that again


So how much do you feel like, do all the women now are you guys kind of like a pod or are you sort of masked around each other? What I mean by pod is, do you wear mask around each other?

We do when we are outside of the building, but inside like if we are meeting inside with each other inside the homes we don’t really you know 


Do you think so, I think..

Because really, the ones I hang out with you know [Redactor 23], um we are practically here all the time. She doesn't drive, I don’t drive and if we do go somewhere my mom takes me anywhere if her friends take her anywhere we have to wear the mask because when you go into the shops because we have to wear a mask. But we are back in this building I mean that’s it. 

What do you think about the community here? I think an interesting thing about this place is that you’re moving from you know there are certain rules there are certain you’re in a community living situation. How does that work? How have things changed since you've been here? I mean have you ever lived in a situation like this before? Also, how much I mean there are women in the building but do you see everybody all the time or how much is just you being alone?

No, no i don’t see everybody all the time usually the ones that are really not driving are here usually. That’s me thats [Redactor 23], [Redactor 24]’s out and about, [Redactor 25] is out but I see [Redactor 26], [Redactor 27] is not here, um [Redactor 28] is not here [Redactor 28] is always out, [Redactor 29] she is out. I always see [Redactor 23], [Redactor 30], Sometimes [Redactor 31], and [Redactor 32]. Usually minding their own business.

How is it.. All of you guys share you are here for the same reason. Is it helpful to talk to the other residents about the situation? Do you do that or?

Um, depends um. You got to be careful because sometimes if you talk about your personal business with them, because if something happens with you and them they will sit there and gossip. 


Yea

But everyone knows everybody situation, except [Redactor 33] which is very tight. Nobody knows anything about her situation. She's good, good for her, good for her because that’s what we should be doing. But for most of us I guess because we are social we want to be like family in here because that's what.. At the end of the day even if we fight we make up and forget about the whole thing and we’re back to being you know whatever. 

02:41:15

Um, I know you never talked about this in the interview but you have talked about this before, um your faith and how that plays a role in this whole experience in your whole life. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? About anything?

With my faith?

Mhm

Well ever since my spiritual father was a monk he just passed away in August in 2019. Everyone knows him to be a prophet and also somebody who does miracles when somebody is sick. To the Orthodox Christians he is the first monk, the latest one that has been like that. A lot, thousand of people would go to him especially from Russia and Greece, you know they come over to Arizona and they go to him. But at first he used to be going over to my aunts house before he made the 50 monastaries here and he would teach us about why abortion is wrong, you know um, he was against it of course because you can, because it’s a soul. If you don't’ want this soul you can have it and give it to somebody because someone wants this soul out there somewhere, because they have a right to live. But there are ways that he helped me with a lot of things even death. He gave me closure on that and it helped me a lot like when I lost a friend of mine. It made me devastated and he would say things like don’t cry over that you know you shouldn't because their souls are very unhappy when you cry they can't rest well. He said don’t worry about him, he’s okay. It’s like he could see. And she told me about something that happened in the past that he could have no way have known about he had gotten into a motorcycle accident when he was 15 and he broke a leg, I didn’t even know this until I called [Redactor 34] mom and said “Hey did this happen when he was 15” and said “he told me about this his monk” also he said to me that his mom was going to be pregnant and have a girl and she was pregnant and had a girl named [Redactor 35]. 

So I actually have to go in a few minutes

Okay

I think we basically have, if you want to talk more about

It’s up to you.