Charles Wallace has been experiencing houselessness for over ten years. He discusses his abusive childhood and his daily trials and routines. Charles often volunteers and is usually cheering up those around him.
“Why be ashamed of who I am? I’m a paranoid schizophrenic with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Does that make me any less of a man? Because I have a mental disability? Does that give a person a right to look at me and say “Okay, we have to look at him suspect”? No! If I never told you that I was homeless, you would never know. If I told you that I, that I have a mental disability, you would never know….So just because a person has a disability, or if you can, like him, you can remember things like he could remember. Or a person that can sit down and have a conversation…. Meaning, a meaningful conversation. Doesn’t mean that they don’t have mental problems.”
“I wanna tell you… How I made it through. I don’t wanna tell you what I went through. I wanna tell you—-I want my story to be how I survived it.”
“You can’t stop flow. You can’t. Even if you build a dam, the, the water, even though it’s all… Condensed right there, but it still flows. It just not, it’s just not goin’ downstream. But it flows. Even confined, it flows. You can’t stop it. It’s cause and effect. I’m always gonna have a cause, so I’m always gonna be an effect. And that’s how I look at life.”
Annotations
Learn More [2] : “History.” About Us, Global Women’s Strike, accessed 2020.
Transcript
Interview conducted by Daniel Swern
New Brunswick, NJ
February 11, 2020
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
Annotations by Emily Borowski
FOLDER 1, FIRST RECORDING (02/11/2020)
(00:00:00)
Um, this is Dan Swern. It is 2:24 pm on Tuesday, February 11th. I’m here at, uh, Elijah’s Promise, uh, on Neilson Street. I’m here interviewing-- Charles Wallace.
Uh, Charles, thank you so much for your time today. Um. Whenever you're ready, um, I’ll have you just take it from the beginning. Okay. uhm, like I said I was born in, uh, Northern New jersey,. Uh… To uh… Who I thought was my, my father, was uh… Julia and Herbert Wallace. But you know, some years later I found out that Her--Herbert Wallace wasn’t my biological father. Um… I had a very, uh, hard childhood growing up. Um. I tell people (laugh) I was a Jerry Springer episode before there was Jerry Springer. Um. My mother… Uh, had an affair. And I was a product of that affair. Um. But the person that she chose to have an affair with was, and I try to explain this to where as people can understand it--my mother had an affair with her husband’s sister’s husband. (pause) sO. My brothers and sisters on my mother’s side and my brothers and sisters on my biological father’s side are first cousins. If that makes any sense. And I’m… And I’m in the middle of all of that. And I was… I was treated very badly by both sides of the family. And when the truth finally came out and my mom and my dad split up, I was blamed for breaking up the family. So I was never loved by the people that I was in the house with every day. And not acknowledged by the people over here. Because I tell people I have no resignation in my life. Because I'm Not a Wallace even though that’s my last name. I’m not a Wallace. But at the same time, I’m not a Washington neither. ‘Cause I don’t know any of y'all. I don’t know anybody on that side of the family. Because you never accepted me anyway.
(00:03:05)
I mean, now that we’re older they do. I mean, but back then, you know it was, whenever I was around it was like “don’t, don’t don’t call me,” you know, like I would see the woman that I would call my Aunt Frances and this woman would tell me to my face that I was a kid, “don’t call me that ‘cause I’m nothing to you.” Why would--I mean, I don’t, I don’t understand why a person would do that to a child. I had nothing to do--what a grown woman chose to do. And for a long time, my mother and mine’s relationship was estranged because my whole, my whole thing was, out of all the people you could have cheated with--I mean, if that’s what you wanted to do, why this man? But then as I got older, I found out different details of, you know, why my mom did what she did. Um. Apparently, uh… (pause) Frances, which was uh, my father’s sister, when my mother was uh, pregnant with my brother, she was on bedrest. And, you know, back in those days there were local bars where everybody went to go hang out with. And, Frances would bring women--well, she had female friends and her and her female friends would come to this bar, and my, my dad was always there. So with my mom not bein’ around, my father flirted with these women. (pause) He said he never did anything, that it was all in my mother’s mind that he was cheatin’ on her. But you couldn’t tell my mom that he wasn’t cheating on her. And that Frances wasn’t helpin’ him cheat. So my mother… Figured… “If this is what you’re gonna do to me and you and I are supposed to be friends, this is what I’m gonna do to you. Not only am I gonna sleep with your husband, I hope I get pregnant. And if I do get pregnant, I hope it’s a boy. And if he’s a boy, I’m gonna name him Charles Henry Washington because that’s my biological father’s full name. Charles Henry Washington. And if it is, I’m gonna give him your brother’s last name.” And that was the boon. “I’m gonna name him Wallace.” And that’s exactly what my mother did.
(00:05:55)
She named me Charles Henry Washington because that’s on my birth certificate. My name is Charles Henry Washington Wallace. You named me after the man you slept with. You gave me his birth name. But you gave me, as a last name, the man that you were married to. And not only did I, did all of that transpire, I look exactly like this man. So he could ne--he couldn’t deny that I was his kid. And that was my life growin’ up. I got, I got beat. I got… Uh… I got tortured. I mean… (pause) I had cigarettes put out on my body. I have, I have marks al over my body. This right here came from a bowie knife that he had. Cause he was in Vietnam, he was in the Vietnam War.
(00:06:58)
END FIRST RECORDING
___________________________________________________________________________
FOLDER 1, SECOND RECORDING (02/11/2020)
(00:00:00)
And um. To set him off, my brothers and sisters would call me Charlie. Because… When he was in the jungle, the Vietcong, that’s what they would call him--Charlie. And Charlie was the enemy. So. If they wanted to get an arousal… Or if they was callin’ themselves, “Getting me back.” They would call me Charlie. And that would trigger him off. And this is why I’m so paranoid. Because I was, I was layin’ in bed, mindin’ my business--you know, a kid sleepin’. And this man was dressed in his full military uniform with the black stuff all on his face and everything. This man crawled in my room, grabbed me off my bed, and he was trying’ to slit my throat, but he caught my face. And m y mom, like, busted in, like, at the time, and she was like “Herbert! What are you doin’!” And he was standing like, he was holding me, and you could like, just see the blood running down my face. ‘Cause eh that’s how hard he was pressin’ the knife to my face. Yo could like, see the blood in the--and he cut--you could see, like, ‘cause I had to get stitches. You could see the white meat in my face. And by the time I got to the hospital, you could actually see from the outside of my face, lookin’ here, you could see inside my mouth. That's how deep that knife split my face. That’s how sharp it was. And he just had it like right there he didn’t even, he didn’t slice it or nothin’, it was just him pressin’ it to my face that it cut me so deep and so wide that you could see in the inside of my mouth. And that was my, that was my, that was my childhood growin’ up. Um… If you walk past him with your head down, you got punched in your face or you got punched in your stomach because you always had to be, you always had to pay attention ‘cause you don’t know when the next thing was gonna happen to you. So you always had to be, you know, on point. Um… At 13 years old, this man took me out in the snow… With just a pair of sneakers on because he wanted to teach me how to be a man. And he had me run up and down the block with just my sneakers on at 13 years old. At 9 years old this man made me get a paper route. None of my other brothers…. ‘Cause I was the only one that had a different father. All of them had the same father. I was the only--out of, out of 8 siblings, ‘cause I’m the 9th child that my mom birthed. So out of 8 siblings, I’m the only one who had a different father than all of them.
[ Annotation 1 ]
(00:03:08)
At 9 years old I was made to go get a paper route. And this man would wake me up in the morning and take me down to Star Ledger and he would get the newspapers. And I had to wrap these newspapers. And I had to deliver each one of those newspapers every day before I went to school. If I didn’t deliver the newspapers in prompt time and I was late to school, I got beat. Then I got put on punishment because I wasn’t fast enough. I wasn’t strong enough. I don’t know, I was about maybe 7 or 8. That’s when I contracted lead poisoning because of um, the uh… The pencils back in the day, you know, back in those days were made out of lead. And I would chew on the back of the pencil, you know. When you're in school you just put the pencil in your mouth. And I would bite down on the, the back of the pencil like you’re trying to figure out a problem or whatever. Because you know they didn’t have the erasers on the pencils back then. You know. They would give you an eraser about that big, that thick. Back in those days. So I would sit there with the pencil and I would just chew, and, you know, the lead was just goin’ directly into my body. And um. The school, they knew I had a learning disability and they would send letters home to my mom and they would tell my mother that, you know, she needed to get me tested because there was, you know, something wrong with me. And she would, she would never sign the letters. You know? She would just write little notes like “oh, you know he’s lazy, but I’ll take care of that.” So I got beat. Because I couldn’t, I mean, there was just some things I couldn’t understand. You know, I’m not a good speller. Um. My reading has never been good. You know. Um. I used to talk words. I, um, I’m 52 years old and I learned to read-read at 45? You know? Because somebody took the time to sit me down and teach me how to formulate a sentence. At 40-- at 45. You know? Everything, I mean… So. (sigh) Growing up with a, with a disability and getting beat. I mean, and if you was in Special Ed people picked on you. And so I learned how to… pretend. I learned how to fake it. You know? So if I couldn’t spell a word, at least I was gonna find out what the meaning of the word was. You know? Take a word like “discontentment”. I can’t spell it, but I know what it means. And that was, that was my way of masking the problem mentally that I had.
(00:06:42)
You know? I was. So. Because… At some point, you just tired of getting beat. Um… (pause) This was shortly before he died. Uh, I had--so I had to be…. I had to be 13, my dad, before he died. I had to be 13 years old. And um I can’t even remember what it was that happened in the house, but he came in and he was in one of his rages. And my brothers and them, they were like all scared, you know. And they would always just talk me into taking the blame for whatever was done. They’d be like “oh, he’s gonna own--he’s gonna take it out on you anyway so you might as well just go ahead and take it! There’s no sense of us all getting beat!” And you know, I would just go for it. And… You know, just this one particular time, I just got, you know, I was just like “whatever this man do to me, he’ll never make me cry again.” I said “I won’t give him the satisfaction. For him to ever see me shed a tear from anything that he’s done to me.” And this man beat me. And I sat there. And I took every hit this man gave me. And I never cried. Tears never came out my eye. It got so bad to the point where my mother, she never intervened with him chastising us, but she told him, she said “Don’t you hit him again.” That was the only time she jumped in. She said “don’t you hit him again.” And I swear, I loved the movie “Glory” so much with Denzel Washington because I never let him see me cry, but when I walked in my room, one tear ran down my face. And I saw that in “Glory”. I said that was my strength. That man never made me cry again. He got ready to hit me and I’d look him right in the eye and I was like “Give me your best shot.”
(00:08:49)
That’s why I don’t care who you are. I lost my wife, my kids, my home. What could you take from me? I been beat to the point where I had to sit home from school because my, I was, I was just, I couldn’t go. What could you do to me? What could you take away from me that already hasn’t been taken away from me? I still have my dignity. I still have thi--I still can make people laugh through all my pain. People tell me “I don’t know how you do it.” But I still make people laugh. You can talk to me, I’ll talk to you about your problems. I’ve always been that guy. Because my whole thing in life was, you can take physical things away from me--I mean, my son house just got flooded. All my stuff was in his house. And now it’s gone. I have nothin’. The clothes you see on my back and a little bit’a stuff they gave me over there at that shelter is all I have. Have nothin’ else. I have no income. He got a 6,500 dollar check. And he knows I’m livin’ in a shelter. And you didn’t give me a dime. Who went and bought you a new car? That’s my life. That's been my life. And I accept it. Because God is never gonna give us nothin’ we can’t handle. So. I’m everybody’s shield. Give me the pain. Give me the hurt. I’ll take it! I’ll take it for you. I’ll take it for anybody. Give me the pain, ‘cause God knows I can take it. Not everybody can. That’[s why they commit suicide. That’s why people are strung on drugs. Never took a drug a day in my life. Drink every now and again, but never had a problem with drinkin’ or anything. Because I can take it. Because I’ve been takin’ it ever since I was a kid. Could you imagine havin’ rice poured in a corner, an inch thick? And you had to take off your clothes and you had to kneel down in that rice with your arms stretched out with two big cans of peas or carrots or whatever--’cause you know they used to come in a big, big cans back in those days. Called them “family size”. And we had to sit there like this, kneeled in that rice. And every time your arms went down, that was another hour you had to give’m because you were weak. (pause)
(00:11:58)
I could be a bully if I wanted to. But that’s easy. It’s easy to be a bully. Takes nothin’ to be a bully. That you can physically dominate somebody? That’s not a man. But you know what makes me a man? ‘Cause I’m not a bully. ‘Cause I can sit here with a smile on my face. Homeless and no clothes and no money in my pocket. But I’m me. (voice breaks) Charles Wallace, (suppressing a sob), for whatever that means. It’s who I am. (deep breath) (sniff) You can’t take that from me. I earned that! I earned to be called Charles Wallace, when I’ve been told that name don’t belong to me. That I shouldn’t have that as my last name. (thumping for emphasis) I earned that last name! You’re gonna call me that to the day I die. (sniff) (thumping continues) ‘Cause I took everything that man gave me. Everything. (thump) The beatings. The, the goin’ to bed hungry--(thumping) I took all of that! And I’m gonna carry that name ‘til the day I die. People tell me “Why don’t you just change your name? Go f--” No! I earned that name. For what it’s worth, I earned that name! And you’re not gonna take that away from me. I don’t care who you are. God can’t come down here and take that name away from me. And I believe that he--I believe in God. But that’s how strong I am. About my conviction when it comes to that name. I earned to be called a Wallace. Whether you want to call me that or not, whether or not you want to see me as that, I earned it. Because I took everything this family threw at me. And I gave it back. Not with anger or hostility, with a smile. And that's what they could never understand. ‘Cause That's the one thing I never let them take from me. I never let them take my smile. see, when you let a person take that away from you, they’ve won. Because when you’ve let somebody take your smile, then you’re just as bitter as they are. You have people walkin’ around here that’s empty inside. I’m full. Of love. Compassion. Kindness. Humility… See, it’s, it’s easy to do the wrong thing. That’s the easiest thing a person can do! Is go down the wrong path. But it’s hard to be different. See, that’s why you have all these people doin’ a lot of the stuff that they do. Because it’s easy to just give in. “Oh, I’m going to smoke cigarettes. Oh, I’m just going to go ahead, do this drug, or smoke this marijuana. Or I’m gonna be a drinker.” (pause) I wasn’t gonna be that.
(00:15:17)
I wasn’t gonna be the victim. That's one thing I, I promised myself. That if I lived to see an adult life, that’s not gonna be my story. My story is not gonna be of pain and, “yeah, I had to go out there and fight on those streets and I had to beat that guy. I, I could take 20 guys!” I never wanted that to be my story. When people look back at my life if I should die tomorrow, you know what people gonna say about me? “He was a good man. He would give you the shirt off his back.” That’s the person that I am. That’s Charles Wallace. The guy that smiles. Lady told me the other day when I was down in the soup kitchen--prolly ‘cause I was volunteerin’, she said “you know what? This is the happiest I’ve seen people in here.” And she said “I’ve been doin’ this for a long time.” She said “but the few days you’ve been comin’ in here, you, you just liven up the place. You dance around and you sing, and--” She was like “oh my God! You just make it, you make it worth coming here! It’s not just for giving people good. I see you walk up and you ask people “Are you finished with your plate? I’ll take your plate.” I’m givin’ people dignity! (sniff) In a world that looks at you like you’re garbage! They look at homelessness as us bein’ garbage. So if I can take your plate and smile at you and tell you to have a nice day, I’m givin’ you dignity and I’m givini’ you respect. So now that means you might walk outta there feelin’ like you’re up here! You might have walked in here feelin’ like this, but now, just because somebody took my plate, said “thank you, have a nice day…” That can uplift somebody to do great things. You never know. Because I’m you! Just like I tell people, just because I’m homeless doesn’t mean I have to look like I am. And that’s why I try to dress myself up. (sniff)
(00:17:34)
It’s all about the presence. It’s all about the presentation. You know what I mean? I can cook you an extravagant meal. Everything that you like. Down to the taste. But if I give it to you on a garbage can lid, are you gonna eat it? Because it’s in the presentation. Because It's on the garbage can lid! You’re not gonna want that, you’re gonna throw it away.vAnd that’s how people look at us. They look at us like we’re garbage. And I’m showing you that we’re not. That we’re not garbage. We just people who fell on hard times. We're just somebody under whatever circumstances, is in the predicament that we’re in. ‘Cause everybody's not strung out on drugs. Everybody’s not a thief or an alcoholic that’s homeless. There's levels to homelessness. I’m homeless, but I’ve never eaten out of a garbage can. I’ve never slept on a cardboard box or in a cardboard box or on somebody’s doorway. Never. But I’m homeless. Been homeless now for, what? Probably goin’ on 10 years. Even if you’re livin’ in somebody else’s house, if it’s not yours, you’re homeless. I don’t care who you are! ‘Cause it's not yours. (sniff) You know why they call it the key of life? Because the key is the most very important thing. Because without that little key that you can stickin that door and turn and walk in, turn on them lights? What do you have? So a key means everything. Somethin’ as simple as this big… Means so much! (pause) Gotta have it, man. And you can’t look down on people who don’t. (door opens)
(00:19:45)
END RECORDING 2
____________________________________________________________________________
FOLDER 1, RECORDING 3 (02/11/2020)
(00:00:00)
I mean, you’re gonna go home tonight, your nice warm home. And I’m gonna go over there to that shelter. But you know what though? At the end of the day, (laugh) we’re both gonna be warm. So does that make you better than me? Does that make anybody who gonna go to they house better than me? What am I less than? People say “oh, you’re homeless.” What am I less? How am I less? I just doesn’t--I just don’t have a place to live! But that doesn’t make me less than you. So I just feel that they should find a more appropriate word other than “homelessness”. Because when you put that word “less” on anything, it depreciates a person’s value. You make--you look at yourself… Like, who am I? So if you, if you deem me “less”, I’m gonna treat myself less than what I am. (pause) So I think we should find another word for a person who doesn’t have a place to stay. Because everybody...I mean, like I said, I’m homeless, but I’m not. Because I have a place to stay. It’s not mine! But I have a place to rest my head for right now. But who knows what tomorrow is gonna bring? They might tell me tonight “pack your stuff, you gotta go.” (pause) Is that gonna make me less than who I am? ‘Cause at the end of the day, when I look in that mirror, I’m still Charles Wallace. So then, so, so how does that lessen my life? Whether I’m sleepin’ in there or outside, how am I less than who I am? So maybe if we found a better word to use than le--then home”less”, maybe a lot more people would get themselves together, you never know. Because it’s all in the wording. Because it’s just like I said earlier, it’s all in the presentation. You can have somebody make you, you can have a 5 star chef make you the best meal, but if he gives it to you on a garbage can lid, you’re not gonna eat it. So it’s how you present it. So it’s how we’re pr--it’s how we are presenting or presenting this thing that they call “homelessness”. (pause) Maybe if we found a better word to call this? Maybe people might strive to not be less than what they--then what you’re callin’ me.
(00:03:00)
We live in a country….That has the technology… In the heavens, that they could take a satellite, billions of miles in, in the sky. And they can show you the image of a dime down here on earth, whether it’s heads or tails. We have that kind of technology. Why are we homeless? Why don’t people have a place to live? When you have the technology to put something that’s billions of dollars in that-in the sky, that hovers with nothin’ holdin’ in up there, it’s just up there hovering over the Earth. And you can look at a image of a dime! And you can tell the year, whether it’s heads or tails… But you got people eatin’ out of a garbage can? What sense does that make? What sense does that make. That doesn’t make any sense to me. So what this country is telling me is that I’m not worth of bein’ a part of… What they call society. (mic crackles) (pause) Because that’s what, that’s what a lot of us feel. That we’re not worthy. And it’s all because they use that word “less”. Makes you feel that you’re not worthy. That’s why I, no matter what circumstances I’m in, you’re ‘gonna get me 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Whether I’m in the shelter or sleepin’ outside in a car or whatever. You’re gonna get who you see in front of you 24 hours a day. I’m not gonna let a word change who I am. I’m better than that. You don’t have to tell me that I am, I’m gonna tell myself that Iam. And that’s why I don’t consider myself homeless. I’m just livingly challenged right now. (laughs) (laughs) I mean, that's just how I view myself right now! I mean, that’s how I view myself! This is how I view life. This is my own philosophy, and this is what I live by. I am but one grain of sand on the beach of men. But I’m that one grain of sand everybody wants to be around. I find 7 good things to say about myself, different every day, when I look in the mirror. And if I can’t find 8, I get mad.
(00:05:57)
That I can’t find the 8th one. (quiet talking in background, inaudible) But I live by that. I live by that philosophy. I think that everybody should have a philosophy that they live by. (talking gets louder, still inaudible) Doesn’t make a difference who you are. You can be rich, poor… Autistic. Bipolar. You can be whoever you are. But find a philosophy and live by that philosophy. What helps me through is the Bible. My faith. The religion that I believe in,. That helps me through. That gets me through a lot. (pause) (talking continues) Just to the fact, like I said o f all of the stuff that I’ve been through in my life, the things that people tried to take away from me. You can take physical things from me. You can take my money. You can even take my life! ‘Cause God’s gonna give me that back. There’s nothing that man can take away from me that God can’t give me back. That stuff I lost at my son’ housE? I’m gonna get that back. I don’t know how, but I’m gonna get it back! (talking continues) So he didn’t have to give me any of that money. Everybody like “Oh, I would take him to court and I would do all that other stuff!” It was, it’s gonna cost me money to do that, money I don’t have, ‘cause you gotta have a lawyer. Then I gotta prove that my name was on them papers. You know? It’s what you can prove! His word against mine. My own child. But that’s what it comes down, to, his word against mine. I relate everything to music. So that’s the Frozen song. I’ma let it go. (pause) And that’s just how I, that’s, that’s just how I live. I live my life on that level. Like she told me, she was like “well, they’re gonna ask you some personal questions and they[‘re gonna want you to open up about your life. A lot of people are not willing to do that.” Why be ashamed of who I am? I’m a paranoid schizophrenic with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Does that make me any less of a man? Because I have a mental disability? Does that give a person a right to look at me and say “Okay, we have to look at him suspect”? No! If I never told you that I was homeless, you would never know. If I told you that I, that I have a mental disability, you would never know. Just because a person can sit down and articulate and use words---Einstein was autistic! How many people knew that? One of the greatest minds in the world. He was autistic. A lot of people didn’t know that! This man could sit down and calculate some of the biggest numbers that you gave him, but if you ever asked him what, what 7 times 7 he would have to write it down to figure it out. How many people knew that?
[ Annotation 2 ]
(0:09:17)
(pause) The movie “Rain Man” was based on an actual man that lives in Cleveland. Lot of people don’t know that. They just thought it was a good movie with Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise. But that’s a real man who’s autistic. But have a photographic memory, that this man can remember anything that you put in front of him. So just because a person has a disability, or if you can, like him, you can remember things like he could remember. Or a person that can sit down and have a conversation…. Meaning, a meaningful conversation. Doesn’t mean that they don't have mental problems. You know, I have people tell me all the time “there’s no way you could be a paranoid schizophrenic because you’re not on medication.” (pause) You wanna know why I’m not on that medication? ‘Cause that medication was turnin’ me comatose. See, there's no cure. There’s no money in a cure. So you’re gonna tell me you need that medicine to, to, to, to maintain what’s in your mind. Now, do I have my episodes some times? Yeah, I do. Do I get reclusive and I shut everything and everyone out? Yeah. Do I still hear those voices in my head? Every day! I’m not gonna sit here and I’m not gonna tell nobody that I don’t. Cause I do! But just like theres levels of cancers, there’s different stages of cancer? There's just different stages to mental health! And just because I’m, I’m, I”m a schizophrenic doesn't mean I have to be on mediation to deal with everything that’s goin’ on. I prioritize everything that’s goin’ on in my mind. (pause) The person you’re talkin’ to now is Charles Wallace. That’s who you’re talkin’ to right now. But when I was sittin’ out in my car? I wasn’t Charles Wallace. I was Sitiges (NOTE: pronounced See-teh-jess). That’s my, that’s the person that loves music. That’s the person who writes little stories. In his mind. (pause) That's who I was in my car. ‘Cause I zone out when I listen to my music. I become somebody else. I tell people I can’t sing. But people tell me all the time “God, you have a beautiful voice!” No, that’s…. That’s not me. That’s not my voice. It comes out of my body but it’s not mine. That's Sitiges’ voice. He’s the singer. I’m just the host. That’s who I am. (loud laughing in background, “I’ll figure it out”, talking continues) I’m the host. Same thing, the Bear. He’s the protector. That’s the person who’s---if I saw somebody--I, I don't have to know you. But if I saw somebody--if I saw a group of people jumpin’ on you, tryin’ to hurt you? I’m, my instinct is going to kick in, to help you. I don’t have to know you to care.
[ Annotation 3 ]
(00:13:00)
Because look at the Samaritan that was walkin’ in, in Biblical Times. The man was lyin’ on the side of the road. He had just got robbed. He was dyin’. And this man came by and didn’t know who he was. Picked this man up, and, and took him to a place where he could get rest and paid for it! And told the shop owner, if you need more, do what yo8u need to do to make sure this man gets well, and when I come back through, I’ll pay you. That’s, that’s Bear. He doesn’t want to see anybody get hurt. He’s the carer. He’s the protector. (bang) But he’s not a violent person. He doesn’t want to fight anybody. That’s not, that’s not who he is. That’s not his job. (talking continues inaudible in background) And I tell people, you can say what you wanna say and I’m gonna walk away from you. Just don't try to put your hands on me. (talking is louder in background) Cause I let people beat me all my life. (loud talking, “Elizabeth!”) (pause) I’m not gonna let you beat me anymore. I’m not gonna start trouble with you, but I’m not gonna let you beat me. I’m just not gonna let that happen anymore. I, I, I done took enough beatings. I don’t wanna give, I don’t wanna give any out. I don't wanna beat anybody or hurt anybody. But I’m just not, you’re just not gonna beat me anymore. Mentally. Physically. I was sexually abused. By my sister. (pause) People tell me “oh my God! You should… Uh, did you ever sit down and confront her?” For what? So she can deny it and say it never happened and then it’s gonna be a whole thing, me and her goin’ back and forth?
[ Annotation 4 ]
(00:15:03)
For what? I know it happened. She knows it happened. God knows it happened. And that’s where we’re gonna leave it. I love my--I loved my sister. Because she’s my sister. See, that’s why they can’t break me. ‘Cause you can’t, you can’t make me angry. You can’t turn me into something that I'm not. I’m not an animal. I don’t…. I know what it feels like to just get smacked for no reason. I lived in a house of bullies. Until I was 18 years old an dI moved out on my own. So from the timeI could remember, which is about… 4 or 5… Around that area. 4 or 5. I’ve lived with bullies. So why would I want to, why would I want to afflict the same kind of pain, hurt…. On somebody else? That don’t make me human. That makes me an animal. I think the biggest problem we have in the United States is people… They look at perception…. You look at a person and you perceive in your mind what you think that person is. And you don’t know me from a can of paint. But because of what you’ve heard and what you’ve szeen, that’s your perception. And people live in fear because of perception. Case in point, I was goin’ to the store and a woman was walkin’ down the block and she saw me, a big black man, and she crossed the street. In 2020. (laughs) In broad daylight. On George Street. Traffic! Other people! (laughs) You’re gonna cross the street! You’re gonna grab your pocketbook and you’re gonna hussle across the street. ‘Cause you see a big black man comin’ down the street. I mean, come on! Do I look like I’m gonna--do I look like I’m gonna in, i--in hurt somebody? ‘Cause I gotta do-rag on my head and a, and a hat? And I got on boots? (laughs) That’s your perception? Of, of, of, of somebody that’s gonna try and hurt you? But that lady just don’t know that if somebody woulda tried to hurt her while i was walkin’ up that block,I would have helped her. Don’t know her, but I would have helped her because she’s passed now, but my mom, I have a sister, I have a daughter, I have a granddaughter--well, granddaughters--so I would want somebody to help them if they were in trouble.
(00:18:17)
So I’m gonna help them! But you look at me and automatically you perceive me as bein’... Somebody bad. (pause) So I feel that as individuals--not even, doesn’t make a difference if you’re black, white, or whatever, ‘cause… There’s all, there’s prejudice in everybody, I don’t care who you are--at some point, there’s a little prejudice in everybody. You know, some people just express it more than others. I mean, let’s just keep that real. There’s, there’s, there’s to a certain degree, there’s a little bit of prejudice in everybody. I don’t care--you could be in an interracial relationship and, and there’s--at some point, there’s, there’s some, there’s a little racism in everybody. Some just express it more than others. You know? So… When are we just gonna start lookin’ at people as people? I mean, the only thing that makes you and I different from each other other than the age difference is that I have more pigmentation in my skin because of where my ancestors came from. So we can handle the UV rays of the sun. My skin is darker than yours. Because our original place was in Africa, it wasn’t… Up this way! Because That's why my ancestor are from. So bein’, bein’ born there, we have darker skin. But our organs function the same, our eyes see the same. We breathe the same air. Our money is--my money is green just like yours. (laughs) You eat somethin’ nasty, you gonna spit it out just like me. There’s no difference between you and I! It’s just that I have more pigmentation in my skin. And Michael Jackson can sit down and say he had vitiligo all day, all--everyday, but we all know he bleached his skin! So if I really didn’t even want this skin colorin’--colorin’ anymore, I can take it out. And if you wanted it, you could put it in! (pause) (tsk) Oh, what was the name of this book--oh, was it… (sigh) Oh man. “Pigmentation”. It’s a, it’s a famous book called “Pigmentation” and what this man did--he was a Caucasian man. And he darkened his skin. He became black. And he lived as a black man for quite some time. Just so he can get the experience of bein’ like, to, to like really get the experience of how they treat African Americans in this country. And this was back in like the 70s.
(00:21:07)
And when people found out what he was doin’ and he, you know, went back to his original skin colorin’, they, they looked down on this man. They, they, I mean, they didn’t receive him well. So now you feelin’ it, now you felt it from our aspect, well, what we go through as bein’ African American, but then when you took the pigmentation out of your skin… They treated you bad! Your own people treated you bad. Because they were like “why would you do that,” like, you know what I mean? If you make 100,000 dollars a year, of course you’re gonna live a different lifestyle from me. I mean, come on, let’s keep that real. There’s no way we’re gonna live the same lifestyle. You’re gonna be able to eat things I can’t afford! You can go out and, if you wanted to go out and have yourself a steak dinner every night, you can do that. You make 100,000 dollars a year. But if I’m makin’ 15,000 dollars a year, like how far is that gonna go? Let’s keep that real. I’m not eatin’ no steak. (laughs) Not every day! I mean, once in a while I might break down and say okay, I’m gonna go get me one. Yo know what I mean? But see, but, that’s the difference between, see, (phone rings in background) the haves and the have nots. You can do--and that’s fine! If you live that lifestyle, or if you have the money to live that lifestyle, that’s fine! But don't look down on somebody who doesn’t. That’s what I have--that’s the problem that I have. Doesn’t make a difference that you have--doesn’t make a difference how you got it! Whether it was willed to you or you earned it or you won a lottery or whatever, however you got it you got it! And it’s yours. I don’t even care how you use it cause it’s, it’s, it’s your business! It’s your business that you wanna use it like that.
(00:23:06)
END THIRD RECORDING
____________________________________________________________________________
FIRST FOLDER, RECORDING FOUR (02/11/2020)
(00:00:00)
Well. As far as the relationship-wise with my parents, that was… My mom, she just, it was like uh, she just went along with what my dad did. I mean… He never hit my sisters. Never hit my mom. Never seen him hit my mother. But when it came to me and my brothers, this man was cruel. I mean, there's no other way I could… You know, just, there's no other way I could explain what this man put us through. You know? I mean, it’s like a domino effect, you know? He takes it out on all of us, but the older one--so he can feel better about himself, he takes it out on us that, that’s younger. And then you know, the next one behind him and the next one behind him so it’s a domino effect. But, so then it comes to me. But there’s nobody behind me. So I catch all of, I catch all of the beatings (laughs), you know, 6 boys, 2 girls. You know, because, my oldest, oldest brother, he died. So my mother birthed 9 children. But it was 6 boys, 2 girls. And like I said my sister, you know, she, I mean (sigh) she was a piece of work. She was a daddy’s girl. She was my daddy’s favorite child, period. Her and my oldest brother. You know, he’s the first born boy. You know? Cause there was speculation that the oldest one wasn’t his, I mean, like I said I wasn’t around for that. He died very, you know, when he was very young. Drowned when he was 13. So I never got a chance to meet him. Don't even know what he looked like. Never saw a picture of him or anything--there weren’t pictures of him in the house. All I knew is that we had a brother named Raymond that died when he was 13. So that was just, you know./ That was another one of those. He didn’t know if it was or wasn’t, but I’ma say okay. I mean, because that’s how it was back then, you know? And um. So I never got a chance to meet him. And you know, uh… We used to have a playground in the back, because I, I was raised in the Projects. And it was a, we had a little play area back there, and that’s where, you know, all of the kids hung out. And I, I just… you know, one day you’re outside playin’ and you see your brothers and you go over there where your brothers are, but I didn't know that if you came into this little area, you had to fight to get out. That was they thing. Never had a fight before3! You know I, I never boxed nobody. What? Box who?
(00:03:26)
So they paired’em with this kid that was, you know, just, we were about the same size. (laughs) Don’t laugh, don’t laugh. But like I said, I never had a fight before! So, (laughs) we grew up watchin’ “West Side Story” and “Star Trek”? So I thought that was how people actually fought! I didn’t know! So, when they told me to fight this kid, I did a little kick--ballet, spin around, dance, and he clocked me! Bam! And I’m sayin’ “You’re doin’ it wrong, that’s not even how you do it! You’re not supposed to do that!” (laughs) Because, I mean, like I said, I grew up watchin’, like, “West Side Story” and all that stuff so I thought you had to dance first! (laughs) Before you get into the physical fighting! Like and this kid just kept clockin’ me, and everytime I would do a dance move and I’m waitin’ for him to do his, this kid would punch me in my face! And I’m like, “would you tell him to stop hitting me? He’s not doing it right.” So when I got upstairs, man, my mom--they told my mom that I let this kid beat me up! This was after my dad was dead. And my mom, she beat the crap out of me. And she was like “You don’t let nobody beat on you like that!” And I’m like… “First of all, I, I, I was in the little playground so I’m thinkin’ that I’m okay.” You know? “But then this guy, he just didn’t… He just, he didn’t do it how they did it--he didn’t do it like West Adelin did in West Side Story! I was waiting for the puree-kick, turn around, he was gonna throw the punch, I was gonna block’m, I was gonna hit’m with, you know, with my punch--that’s how Captain Kirk did it! I was waitin’, I was waitin’ for the double chop!” Never came. Never came. So that was my first experience with a fight. (laughs) He just kept punchin’ me in my face and I never got a chance to hit’em because I was tellin’ him he was doin’ it wrong! That was my introduction to, to like physically fighting somebody outside my house. I mean d--did I tussle with my brothers and stuff like that? Yeah! You know y--you’re tryin’ to hurt me but you’re not gonna hurt me hurt me, I’m your little brother. So yeah I, rrrrustle with my brothers and I try to fight them--rrr! But out in the street was something totally different, man. And it opened up a whole new world. Something that I, I was like “no, i, I, I, I’m not gonna…. Fight him? No, that’s not what I wanna do. I don’t wanna be a fighter.” But I mean over the years I had to learn at least how to defend myself.
(00:06:02)
So I mean, that’s what I did. You know I, I, I don’t like to fight. But I will if I have to. You know? Um. Back with my dad… When I was about 7 years old… Um. (pause) I wanted to--I love music. So. My father had a friend who could play the drums. And… I asked him I, I asked his friend “could you teach me how to play the drums?” And he was like “if it’s okay with your father” you know, “you gotta ask your dad first.” And I asked my dad, I was like, you know, “can he teach me how to play the drums?” and he was like “Okay, if he’s willin’ to do it.” I mean, and this man was good, he was like--we used to call him “Tater”. That was, to this day I can’t remember this man’s real name, but that was his nickname, “Tater”. I mean, and this man did, he taught me how to play the drums. And that was the one thing other than cookin’, like cookin’ is my thing now. But back in the day, that was my thing. Playin’ the drums? I would tell anybody, grown’r…
(00:07:09)
They used to take me around and have me play against, like, grownups! i’M LIKE, like, 7, 8 years old, 9 years old, they’re takin’ me around--they’re betting money on me! Tater and my dad. That my son can outplay you on the drums. You know, “Oh, this little kid can’t beat me!” And I would stay out all clumsy, like I didn’t know what I was doin’. I mean, I made it sound good enough, like they could see that I could play. But I wasn’t givin’ them the, the, I wasn’t givin’m the (mimics drum beat), I wasn’t given’m that. You know. At first. ‘Cause that was to set’m up. So they could give more money. So they could bet more money. And then, but then w hen, you know, they would bet the money and my, my dad would give me the nudge, then I would give it to’m. And then they’d be like “you got hustled by a little kid!” (laughs) Cause I was really good. Cause that's all I would do. I would sit in my room. Because my--they didn’t play with me, my brothers and sister. They never played with me. So I, I, the drums became my outlet. That was my… That was my fight. That's how I got my anger out. I could beat them drums for hours. And I was good. So we’re… We’re in school and you know, we havin’ the… An assembly. And I asked my dad to come. “Oh, I’m busy, I, I don’t have time for that. But if I can make it I’ll make it.” And I had the solo. (pause) He wasn’t an affectionate man. He never hugged me--I never saw him hug any of my brothers. Hugged my sisters all the time, hugged my mom all the time, but when it came to his boys, men didn’t hug. That was just…
(00:09:03)
That was just Herbert Wallace. You had to be tough on boys. You didn’t, you didn’t, we didn’t hug, we didn’t kiss, we didn’t show emotions. He didn’t play with us. You know. It just didn’t happen. And uh… I’m lookin’ around auditorium and he, he wasn’t there. Oay. My mom was there, my brothers and sisters was there, and I, I get it. You know. We playin’. And we gettin’ into it. And I mean, we wailin’! And they was like “on the drums--” cause you know, they was like sayin’ everybody who was playin’ what instrument. And (inaudible), the guy on the bass got to do (imitates bass) you know, the guy on the piano got his little wail. And he’s like “On the sticks! Chaaaarles Wallace!” And I’m like (imitates drums) and all I hear is “That’s my boy! That’s my son!” And I’m lookin’ up and my dad is right there, man, and I’m just kick it into high gear! And man, when I see him, he was jumpin’ and he was happy! Man, I started wailin’ on them drums, man! That (imitates drums) twirlin’ the sticks! Bow, bow, bow! And I clopped’m in and everybody near went crazy, and that was my hug from my dad. He never physically hugged me, but that was, that was the only time that man ever showed any real love towards anything that I did. He was, he called me his son. He never called me that before. Never. When I was on drums and he saw me beatin’ that drum and man, everybody was clappin’ for me and he stood up and yelled out “That’s my son! That's my boy!” That was my, that was my hug from my dad. That’s all I ever wanted was acceptance from him. And he gave me that. And that’s why i tell people I earned my name. Can’t take this name from me. Whether you wanna say I’m one or not, I am. That was my, that was my hug from my dad. Yup. That was our moment (laughs). Came, came and it went! But that was my moment with him. And then after he died, um… That’s when things went from bad to worse. Because now, you had---cause, I mean, you heard little things in the house. But he would never let grown people--and that’s one thing I will say about him. He never let grown people say smart stuff about me. Or like, try to hurt me. Now that’s one thing I will say. He protected me. He might have beat the crap out of me, but his philosophy was “well, ain’t nobody else gonna beat the crap out of him!”
(00:11:48)
So he did protect me in that aspect. And when he died, I mean, it’s like… Everybody just turned they back on me. The whole… I mean, I was already gettin’ snubbed by the family already. But once he died… That was it. Ev--it was like open season. All grown people just… Takin’ all of they frustration out on the kid. My mom got sick and she was in the hospital. And uh, she had to get a hernia operation. She had a hernia sittin’ right in the middle of her chest. And um. She was in the hospital for quite a while. And uh, we went to go stay with my Aunt Dede. And uh, as a last minute babysitter bailed out on her, and she didn’t want to leave us in the house by herself, so she called Frances and she asked her if, you know, we could bring the kids--she said “can I bing the kids over to the house?” And she was like “Just so you all know, Charles is with, with the kids.” “Oh, no, come, you bring’m, you bring’m, you bring’m, you bring them kids, girl, and you go on to work.” No sooner than my aunt was gone, that woman put me out of her house on the porch in the cold. It was freezin’ outside, and this woman sent me outside. And she wouldn't let my brothers that was over me--cause him and I were like--out of all of my siblings, we were the closet because we were so close in age? ‘Cause he’s 2 years older than me. He’s passed away too, but he was two years older than me. And even though me and him went through our things, he was kind of my protector. He would like, fight my other brothers when they would try to jump on me. So you know he was, he was sort of like my protector growin’ up? And… He, she told him that if he went outside, that she was gonna beat him. And my brother put on his coat and he came out there and he put his arms around me and he hugged. And he sat out there in the cold with me, and he said “if my brother’s gonna be out here in the cold, then so am I.” And she did. She came out there and she grabbed him and h was holdin’ on me and she was pullin’ us apart and she did--she beat my brother. And I’m, I’m cryin’ now and my face is gettin’ all cold and tight and… Uh…. You know my, so my sister finally gets to the phone and calls my aunt at her job. And sh was like “What’s the matter” and they be like--and I mean I, I, I was surprised that my sister even, you know, was concerned about me. But she was like “yo… she just put him out on the porch like as soon as you left. She put him outside on the porch like he was a dog.” And my, my aunt was like “Who?”
(00:14:57)
Like “Charles. He’s on the porch like right now with just a coat on and he’s freezin’.” Yo, my aunt was livid. Oh, she was livid. She came all the way from her job to get us. But she was gonna fight my aunt. But my aunt locked herself in her room and wouldn’t come out. You know. Because my aunt was like “yo! He’s a child! You’re gonna sit this baby outside? Are you crazy?” And I mean, and that’s… This, this, this, there’s things like that that I remember growin’ up? (sniff) And uh… (pause) Like my sister, she would sit me in my room, like, all day. And she wouldn’t feed me. And she knew exactly what time my mom was gonna get home. And she would let me out maybe like 10 minutes before my mom would walk through the door. Everybody done ate, house clean, dishes si up from dinner and everything, my mom food sittin’ on, sittin’ on the stove. And I’m starvin’. And I would tell my mom “she didn’t feed me.” And my, that sister would look at my mom like “he jus’ bein’ greedy mommy. I’m gonna feed everybody else and not him?” And my mother would beat me, because “why would you lie on your sister?” And then years later, my mother found out that it was true. That I used to sneak up in the middle of the night and I would eat, I mean, because I was a kid. I mean, because how many nights I gonna go to bed hungry? So I would sneak up in the middle of the night and I would eat--but I would pig out, I would binge because I’m like, i’m gonna eat as much as I can because I know tomorrow, they’re not gonna--I’m not gonna, they’re not gonna feed me. You know? I know she’s not gonna give me anything to eat. Or I would like, like, get snacks and stuff and I would hide’m, you know, like, around the house. You know? And uh. That’s how we got mice. Oh, that… When my mother found that out, you know, to the reason why we--because by me hiding, you know, the, the, the food and stuff all around the house so I could have something to eat, you know. The mice sniffed out the food and. So then exterminator had to come in and they had to fumigate the place and we all couldn’t be in there and… You know. Then it, it, I mean, that’s, that’s the most embarrassing thing that you could hear around the neighborhood. “Oh, you hear they had to get they house fumigated ‘cause they had mouse all in they house!” So that was… That was a hard 6 months. I, I, I got beat almost every day. And… (pause) (big sigh) (pause)
(00:17:53)
You know I, I wasn’t able to, you know, I wasn’t allowed to be with the rest of the family. I mean it was, it was like… I had to, “Go sit over there and think about what you did!” And I’m sittin’ here and I’m cryin’ and I’m like, I did what I did was because… She wasn’t feeding me! You know? I’m not just gonna be out there. I’m just not gonna, I’m not gonna tell you that she’s not feeding me and… You know. She’s not feeding me! And you’re not believing me! Why would I hi--why would I hide food… I’m hungry--if, I mean if I’m not hungry, why would I hide food? You now, this is what I was tryin’ to explain to her. And it was like, you just don’t get it! It’s like you’re not tryin’ to get it! It was like, oh my--are you serious? I’m, I’m gonna lie to you about not eating? So one day, woke up, and my mom was gone. 13 years old, shortly after my dad died. I mean, we lookin’ around the house and she gone. Gone all day. My mother never left the house and stayed out like that. And she came home, like aout maybe, 10:30, 11:00 at night. We all worried to death. She comes back in and she makes an announcement that she goin’ back to school. (pause) That the job that she was on, she quitting. She’s goin’ back to school to better herself so pretty much, 13 is, I’ve been on my own since I was 13 years old. That’s when… That’s when my life just, it went from “okay, she’s gonna be gone gone now.” So we’re not talkin’ about her goin’ out, her bein’ gone for a few hours. She’s gonna be gone all day. Big, like, what I told you with my dad beating me--you’re not gonna make me cry anymore? I said I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna do this. You’re not gonna, you’re not gonna do this to me. You’re not gonna be makin’ me sit in no room all day long tellin’ me that… I’m not gonna eat until she come home. So I did, I started sneakin’ out. (sniff) Before my mother would leave… So, mind you, a 13 year old kid… Gettin’ up, sneakin’ out the house… At 4:30 in the mornin’. (pause) In the Projects. And all I would do is… Back then, like most of the apartments were empty? And they were just open. I mean in, in the Projects the heat came on at a certain time and it stayed on, so didn’t have to worry about it bein’ cold. You know, you didn’t have to worry about it bein’ cold. Had a refrigerator in there. I mean, it was just an empty apartment.
[ Annotation 5 ]
(00:21:26)
So. What I did was, I sat down and I, I, I was, I watched one apartment. Maintenance people never came up there, never checked it, never did nothing--it was at the end of the hallway, so nobody… It was a woman that lived like in the middle of the hallway, but nobody lived on the end part. So if I came up from the other buildin’, I could come up those stairs and go right into the apartment, and nobody would ever know I was in there. So I sat down there for maybe a month, watchin’ the apartment. Nobody ever came in, nobody ever came out. Nobody never bothered the apartment. It was open. So. I did what most kids did. Started hustlin’ around the little neighborhood, runnin’ to the store for people, and I bought a lock. By myself. 13 years old. First time I ever changed a lock on a door. (laughs) Because I mean, the cylinder and everything is gonna stay the same.I mean the, the lock itself is gonna stay, so the only thing you changin’ is the cylinder. So. I mean, you didn’t have Youtube and all that during them days, so it was trial and error. You knew you had the little long piece that was on the back of the lock. And you had to kind of--if you cut it too short you were screwed. So I mean, I had to measure that thing just right to, to cut it. And it fit. So now I have my own place at 13 years old! I had my own apartment at 13. And I, I, I would just… Sneak out. Go down--it was on the 8th floor, we lived on the 10th floor, my apartment was on the 8th floor. People would throw furniture and stuff away and I mean, I’m a 13 year old kid, I wasn’t gonna tell a whole buncha people about my little spot! So I would--I mean I, I, I dragged furniture. Like at 2:00 in the morning. (laughs) People were sleepin’ and I’m draggin’ a couch by myself, 13 years old. Gettin’ it in the elevator. Goin’ up to the 8th floor. Draggin’ it down the hallway, hopin’ that nobody hear me draggin’ this thing down the floor so they don’t be like “Oh, what he doin’? Where he goin’?” So I had to try to be quiet. And I did! I furnished that whole apartment! It was a 2 bedroom apartment. I furnished the whole apartment. Even got me a ol--even had me a old TV. And I had a, apartment at 13 years old. That was my first apartment.
(00:24:02)
And… I lived in there. On the 8th floor. My mom didn’t even know where I was. There were so many people in the house. I would show my face every now and again. I would sneak out when everybody would sleep. Go to my apartment. ‘Cause we had to be in bed back in those days at 9:00. And my mom had to get up early. So by 10:00 o’clock everyone would sleep. I’d sneak down to my apartment, had food in my refrigerator and everything. Had me a little girl. We was livin’ in the apartment together. She was like 15 though, she was like 2 years older than me (laughs). Well, I’m serious, man! We livin’ in this apartment, we were 13 years old, man, and I lived in that apartment for like 2 years! Nobody never, they never, they never knew we were in there. ‘Cause I didn’t tell a lot of people. Like, other kids, they used to call them clubhouse. They would, you know, like I said, it was the Projects and apartments were empty. You know, they would go in these apartments, and they would, they would make noise and they would be loud and then you draw attention to yourself. Me, I was quiet, ‘cause like I said I was at the end of the hall by myself. Because the way the, the way the Projects looked where I was, there was an apartment right here, one right here, one right here--all three of those were empty. And then you had a hallway like in the middle, an apartment on this side. An apartment on that side. And then, the other end of the hallway, then you had the other 3 apartments like you had there. So everybody--one woman lived in the middle, and everybody else lived out on that end. So nobody lived down the hall. And like I said, never was--I never was loud, you know what I mean? If my TV was on. Because the, the, the elevator was on the side down by where everybody lived. So it’s not even like you had to come by where I lived to get to… The elevator.So everything was down on that end. It was perfect. And like I said, I stayed down there for like two years, by myself. In my apartment. I mean, that was my life, that was, that was the only way I was gonna have peace. So I, I pretty much been on my own, takin’ care of myself since I was 13. I moved out when I was 18. Of my mom’s house. In another empty apartment. But in another building. It wasn’t, you know, a… I mean, it was in, it was on the same street. ‘Cause we lived on 30 and on Laker Street. And then the next building over was 29. So I moved, I moved into 29. I just too all my stuff out of… 39. And moved it to 29. And that’s when me and my uh, youngest, my, my, my ex-wife. You know, she was goin’ through whatever she was goin’ through with her parents. So. She caught herself runnin’ away.
(00:27:09)
So me and this woman, me, me and this girl livin’ in this apartment. For free! No--with the heat on and everything. And I always found an apartment on a floor where there was either nobody livin’ on… Or… Not that many people was on. ‘Cause I, I moved all around. The Projects, ‘til I was like maybe 22. (laughs) I mean, but that's what I did. And I mean, but. Had a job. Had food. But when she got pregnant with my daughter I was like “okay. We can’t, we can’t be doin’ this. We can’t be, we can’t be livin’ in a, we can’t be living in Projects for free. We gotta find somewhere to move.” And that’s when I moved to Irvington. My uh… At the time, my oldest brother had a, uh… A duplex. And we moved upstairs. He let me move upstairs. Because we had a back way where as we could come up, and we didn’t even have to bother you know, him. And his family. So we would go up the back way and… I lived there for about 4 years. With my ex-wife and 2 of my children was born there. And then we found a… Another apartment. Where actually it was, uh, my mom’s apartment. But she went to go live with my sister. And… So we moved into that apartment that belonged to my mom. And then that’s where our third child was born. We stayed there for about… 6 years, and that’s when we got our divorce. When I lived in that apartment down there. But um… Back to the uh, the younger years. I know you said you wanted to hear more about that. Um. (sigh) I killed my sister’s cat. Dusty had to go. Dusty had to go. Because she loved that cat more than me, I mean, you, you’re gonna feed your cat but you’re not gonna feed me? No, Dusty gotta go! So I fed Dusty Drain-o. I mixed Drain-o in Dusty’s food. And we sat there and we watched Dusty throw up his insides. (long pause)
(00:29:55)
I still remember that being… (pause) I remember that being, wooo. (pause) I still remember that beating. That was my first time gettin’ beat with an extension cord. You know, my dad had this uh… Barber belt. And that’s what he used to beat us with. And you know how tough that, that leather is. ‘Cause I mean, come on, you sharpen, you know, you sharpen a razor on that cowhide, man. I mean, he would--and that was, that’s what he used to beat us with. But she was like, uh, she--cause back in the days, you could unplug the wire from the TV, you know? It’s not like they are now. So she unplugged the wire from the TV and, you know, doubled it? Wrapped it around her hand, man, and oof. I had welts all up and down my back, my legs. She… Beat me, she beat me for about maybe 30 minutes with that extension cord. She beat me so bad my body just went numb. I couldn’t even cry out no more, that’s how bad she beat me with that extension cord. But you know, every lash I got, I said to myself “Dusty ain’t here no more.” (laughs) It’s not funny, but it was, that beating was harsh, but it was worth it. (pause) Next time, put some food on my plate. Maybe your cat might still be there. Yeah…. I made an electric chair. I tried to kill my father. In an electric chair. Uh… We had metal chairs. And… I got a, he watchin’, uh, PBS. And they was talkin’ about how if the thing is plugged in, the wires are alive and you have to be careful not to touch them. So, and they was like one thing you never do is put live wires on metal because the metal becomes alive like the wires, and if you touch it, they will shock you. And I said “Really!” So I got an extension cord and I cut the top of it off and I split the middle down and I shaved off to where the copper was exposed, and I wrapped it around the chair and I plugged it in. I was just waiting for him to sit in his chair--come sit in this chair, Buddy. You won’t beat me no more. I still remember that beating too. My sister told on me. She saw, she was like “Daddy! You see that thing plugged in there?” And--’cause he was gettin’ his sandwiches and everything ‘cause he was about to sit down and watch football. (pause)
(00:32:59)
He lookin’ at me like “this man is crazy!” (laughs) I’m not. I mean… I just… I mean, I was young. Couldn’t have been no more than 10. Maybe 9? (pause) Yeah. I tried to kill’m. (pause) Then they got to the point--and this is when my drinkin’ started--because we fig--we figured out how to get into his liquor cabinet. Cause you know, back in them days you could have a, a lock on somethin’ and all you needed was a butter knife and yo7u just jimmied the lock and if you could get that between the little slot part where the thing went in? All you had to do was just, and then pop it back and then the door, it’ll come right open, whether it was ll--where it was locked or not. You could just pop it and it’ll slide right open, you know? And how we used to put it because it was locked, so you couldn’t make the thing go back in, we would open up the other door, slide it out, and then we would push it together to where as the thing went back in and then you’d push closed both the doors at the same time. And that’s how it locked back. And his dad--so that’s why bourbon is my drink of choice. Because that’s what he’d drink. My daddy drunk bourbon. So if I knew I was gonna get a beating… I would pop the lock and I would do like two capfuls. Or maybe 3 capfuls. Because I mean, I was a kid. I was like 9 years old. So like, 3 good capfuls of bourbon is gonna be like “okay! Beat away, pal! I don’t feel it.” I mean, I felt it in the morning. But. While you was beatin’ me, I don’t feel nothin’. You could wail on me all day long. I’m in la la land. And it went from… Capfuls to teaspoons to tablespoons to puttin’ little bit in glasse and just… even when I wasn’t gettin’ a beatin’. Then he found out we was goin’ in, (laughs). So he was like “oh!” Cause he knew my mother didn’t drink. My mother wasn’t a drinker. So. He like, I know, eh’s like “I’m not stupid. I know somebody in here drinkin’ my stuff.” (pause) I wasn’t telln’. We all gonna have to wear this one. But then they all was like “It’s Charlie! He the one! We can smell it on his breff!” So why you all tell--why you all just tellin’ now--you know, I was just tryin’ to get out of it, but of course he believed them. I was always gettin’ a beatin’. I was. I wasn’t a bad kid. I was just mischievous. I was just mischievous. You tell me, you tell me to be honest…
(00:36:06)
‘Cause that, you know, that was him and my mother’s thing. Never tell a lie, always be honest! Okay! So I’ma tell you, I’ma tell you flat to your face. You might not like what I’ma tell you, but I’ma tell you! If your breath stink I’ma tell you your breath stink. I don’t care who you are. I’ma tell you. Yo, you need to do somethin’ about that. Tack it one time with some toothpaste, gargle somethin’, but your breath right now is kung fu, and it’s in the afternoon, so it shouldn’t be. That’s just me. I’ma tell you! We was always told to be honest. I’m sayin’ we had an aunt--can’t kiss me! She used to dip snuff. You ain’t kissin’ me. You ain’t puttin’ your mouth on me. Come on. You got emphysema, get out of here. I ain’t even know what that was at the time, I just heard it somewhere. And I heard it pertains, like, smokin’ and stuff? I’m like she got emphysema. (laughing) I was always getting a beating! Because she heard me when I said it and she told my mother “you know your son said I got emphysema?” (laughs) My mother was surprised that I knew what that word was! She was like “What does that word even mean?” and I was like “I don’t know, but they said if you smoke cigarettes you gonna catch emphysema, and she dippin’ snuff and it’s worse than cigarettes.” Okay, well… And I, I used to get a beat. That was… I always pushed the envelope in everything that I have done in my life. I was always gonna see! I was gonna, I was a risk taker. We used to be, we used to call ourselves “Roof Trackers”. And, because back--where we used to live, the buildings used to be so close. And we would start from one end of the block--like, say you was a fast runner and I was a fast runner. SO you would get on one side of the street and I would get on the other side of the street, because the buildings and the houses were so close together and we would run and we would jump from roof to roof. And we were called roof, we called ourself “Roof Trackers.” And we would see who could get down to the end of the block before the other one and that’s how you won the bet. It could be a baseball card or--I mean, it wasn’t like money--a comic book that you wanted that somebody had, you know, or, you know, something they had that you wanted. So that was always the bet, who could get to the end first. Takin’ off runnin’. So one day… We roof trackin’. Me and my brother. (pause) “You’re not faster than me. I’m faster than you. Let’s prove it!” So we would (bottle cap falls) climb up on the roofs, (bottle cap falls) and we start. I’m like 4 roofs in. I go to jump my 5th one, and I fall right through, (mimics explosion). And like half my body is inside the people’s apartment, and the other half is like, stickin’ up from the roof. And it’s a good thing the woman just moved her baby. She literally just picked her baby up and moved her baby, because if she didn’t the plaster would have fell down and hit the baby. (pause) (bottle cap falls) Whooo! Okay… (pause) (tsk tsk tsk) (inaudible) (pause)
(00:39:29)
(Charles’ voice lowers) That, that one still makes me emotional sometimes ‘cause, I mean I might have did that--I might have ben wrong but come on man. You took my clothes off and you dipped me in water. And you beat me with an extension cord. And then when you felt that you was tired, you dipped me in more water and then the other parent would beat me. And that happened 4 times. Like, twice my mom, twice my dad. Just dippin’ me in water and beatin’ me with an extension cord. Because I could have killed the baby. I mean, I understand what I did was wrong. I mean, I’m not… Tryin’ to make any excuses for that? But come on. That’s excessive. You don’t… You don’t beat nobody like that. (quietly) You don’t beat nobody like that…. (voice returns to strength of before) There was a time when I was, uh… 8. Mean, I was a little older than 8. Cause it was my, my, that’s when my dad first got---when he got sick, I was like maybe 10 or 11. Cause he died when I was 13 so. When he started to get sick, he had the colon cancer. And um…. So I had to be about maybe 11, like 10 or 11.
(00:40:47)
‘Cause, when I was 12 is when he went to the hospital and he stayed in the hospital, like, like almost my whole 12th yee--my 12 year old year. He was, it wasn’t like he was in and out of the hospital, he was in the hospital. And it got to the point where my mother was like “you know what? We just gonna take him home.” And he died at home when I was 13. And um. (pause) (tsk) Was over a friend’s house. Playin’ with a cigarette lighter. Now I can’t help it that they had cheap curtain. My mother’s curtain was cotton, I’m sorry ya’ll had rayon. And we, we had the, (laughs) The aerosol spray. (laughing) So I set his curtains--his mothers curtains on fire! And I burnt they house down. So I went to juvie for that. They called me a pyromani--they said I was a pyromaniac! I never burnt anything down in my life! It was, we were…. We were sittin’ there playin’! We were sittin’ there playin’ with the, the, the lighter thing! Makin’ it go whoosh! Didn’t expect it to, your mother’s cheap curtains to catch on fire! So me, bein’ a kid, not thinkin’ that (bottle cap falls) the whoosh just started the fire, had took the aerosol can and I just (laughing) started sprayin’! The fire! It was gettin’ worse! So yeah, I burnt, I burnt my first house down when I was like 12, like 11 and a half, 12. I burnt my first house down. So… They put me in juvey. (pause) So that one. (pause) So I went to the youth house. And that’s when I wrote my first rap. I was Sony C. (laughs) I wrote my first rap ‘cause I was incarcerated. (laughs) “Caught myself chillin’, just about last summer, really only thing I found myself gettin’ dumber. Swingin’ out naked, robbin’ and stealin’, hangin’ on them corners and I found myself chillin’, but it just don’t pay! Every day cops comin’ to your house, wanna take you away. And as you say goodbye, see your mother cry. Goin’ to the youth house, makin’ up a lie. See, when I got there, I made my deposit. Put me in a cell no bigger than a closet. My lights went out, my bed was set, and I knew it’d be somethin’ that I’d regret.” That was my first rap.
[ Annotation 6 ] [ Annotation 7 ]
(00:43:52)
So I did like… Three months in juvie. And uh, when I came home, I just knew I was gonna get the beating of my life. But like I said, by that time my dad was just like, really sick. My mom didn’t… She didn’t tell us that he was dying? And she didn’t tel us that he had cancer. She just said that we had to be real quiet because my, you know, “Daddy not feelin’ well.” So we thinkin’ he’s got like, a cold or something like that. So… I remember. It was, I turned 13 on January the 15th of that year, whatever year it was, I think I was, uh, I turned 13, probably maybe ‘81, ‘82, somewhere around there, ‘cause I know I, I know I started high school that September. That September (clears throat) I started high school. (coughs) Excuse me. And… I remember… (pause) I was in school. And they, my uncle (clears throat) he was a police officer, my Uncle George. (pause) He already had my brother that was over me, ‘cause we was the only two that was still in, uh, grammar school at the time. Um. My older siblings already had graduated and my brother Derek and my brother Richard was in high school. And um… So they were already at the house. And they came to get me and my other brother. And everybody was quiet in the car. My aunt. My uncle. And uh. My cousin Felicia. Everybody was cryin’. And my uncle, I mean, you could see, he wasn’t boo hoo hoo hooing. But you could see the tears streamin’ down his face. And we as like “Wow. What’s goin’ on?” You know, I mean, Uncle George was like the toughest person we knew and he was a cop! Like, why is he cryin’, you know? So we get to the house (deep sigh) (pause) And, you know, I see my, my sisters, my brothers and them and they’re cryin’. You know. So we uh. You know, Me and my brother was like “What’s goin’ on? What’s goin’ on?” And you know, he was like--my mom, my mom, my, just in all the confusion. And this was the nicest this woman has ever been to me. Frances never been nice to me. And she came in there and she was like “Are ya’ll hungry? I’ma take you all in here and I’ma get ya’ll somethin’ to eat.” And I’m like, I knew something was wrong. I’m like this person is being nice to me? Please!
(00:46:57)
Somethin’ wrong! But you know, they just kept tellin’ us, you know, “You gotta be quiet, you gotta be quiet!” So I’m like “okay, daddy’s still sick.” And um… They let the older ones go in first. And uh. I hear like this… Like, this, this scream like. (pause) Like I can’t even put it to words how my sister, cause, she was his favorite. And you, I can’t put it into words to describe the squeal this girl made when she saw my dad. And um. (pause) (sigh) So it was our turn (sigh) and we went in. And. You know, he had his eyes closed and I’m like, you know, so I’m like, cause you know, everybody was talkin’ and everything. I mean, (inaudible) ya’ll gotta be quiet, my daddy, he sleepin’, he’s not feelin’ well, he’s sick and ya’ll in here makin’ all this noise, and… So now my mom really starts to losin’ it. You know. And my uncle, he just put his arm around me and he hugged me and I’m just like “yo. Ya’ll got to be quiet! My dad is tryin’ to sleep!” And hw as like “your dad is”, he said “your dad’s dead.” (pause) And I just got numb. A numbness just came over my body. Because I loved this man. I loved Herbert Wallace with all of my heart. He was a tough man. That man beat me. But I am the, I am the person I am today because of him. I was the, that was the person I was at 13 years old, that was that tough kid that couldn’t break me. At 13 when everybody tried, you couldn’t break me. At 13 years old, you couldn’t break me. I got that from him. That’s why I say I, Iearned this name that I, that I carry. Can’t nobody take it from me (pause). I loved that man with all my heart. And I never told him ‘bout that. First time I ever said that out loud. (big sigh) I loved that man with all my heart… Because the man that was my biological father was sittin’ across… Right there.
(00:50:00)
And you know everything that I’ve been through growin’ up--cause at the time, I didn’t know he was my dad. I just thought he was my uncle Charles! That they named me after! ‘Cause they did stuff like that back in them days. You know, my daddy already had a, a namesake that was my oldest brother, so I’m just thinkin’ they named me after my Uncle Charles! But you’re my father. And you sit there listenin’ to me call another man my, my dad? And you ain’t got nothin’ to say to me? You don’t hug me? You don’t try to console me or nothin’? Didn’t find out ‘til I was 18 years old that you (clapping for emphasis) wasn’t--that you was my dad! I heard little things. But I didn’t find out ‘til I was 18 years old that you was my biological father, man. Ain’t never done nothin’ for me in my life. (pause) Nothin’! You didn’t even acknowledge me. You didn’t even give me that… You didn’t even acknowledge to the fact that you were my father. (pause) (sigh) Could you live with that? Knowin’ that you had a kid out there, man? (pause) And you don’t do, and you know this kid is gettin’ beat. It’s not like you didn’t know about the abuse. (background talking) You was there when they put me out on the porch, in the cold! You was there and you didn’t do nothing! But I loved him too. No hate in my heart. How many people can say that? When you was a, when you was a part of the abuse! You never, you never physically touched me, but you was a part of the abuse because you let it happen. You let it happen! You know I was your kid and you let it happen. You never once tried to protect me! I will die for my kids! Whether they speakin’ to me or not. You try to hurt one of my kids, I will…. Die for my children.. I will die for my grandkids! My ex-wife got a son by another man that I love that boy. I will die for him! And he’s not even my biological child but I will die for that child and he know I will!
(00:52:56)
But you couldn’t even tell him to stop? You just sat there ‘cause you was free from responsibility? (sniff) And people ask me why i am the way that I am, ‘cause I can’t do that to nobody. (pause) I can’t do that to nobody. (voice breaking) That’s a hurt that could never go away. (shaky breath) And I’ve never spoken about this until now. But this man sat there and watched me… Get beat. And didn’t say a word. Never tried to stop nobody. Never tried to stop it. (pause) Him and my dad would go to the bar together! And drink! And you never… Once said ‘you know that’s my kid.” (pause) Just before you died? ‘Cause like I said, I found out he was my dad when I was 18. Never heard from you again, bra. And then, my sister bought him, we started to get close--I mean, we’re close now, but they both was livin’ in Virginia. And… She was like “well… I don’t know how you feel about this but daddy wanna see you”. I said “daddy wanna see who?” I said “my father is dead.” She said “Charles you know what I mean.” I’ll meet’m--I ain’t got nothin’ to say to’m, but I’ll meet’m. (pause) She’s like “you know who it is.” I don’t know that man. He was a, he was a part of my life when I was a kid-- not in the right way, I mean I would come over to ya’ll house and we would play. He was there. But I don’t know him. (pause) Then it comes out that he’s my father when I’m 18 years old? My daddy’s dead and now yo7u wanna tell me you’re my father? Come on, bro. So I did, I went--reluctantly, I went down there to see’m. I called him Mr. Washington because I mean, I wasn’t gonna disrespect’m. I called him Mr. Washington and he’s like “whoa, why are you callin’ me Mr. Washington?” Because that’s who you are to me! What, I’m supposed to call you dad? Come on, man. That’s not gonna happen, bra.
(00:55:58)
I mean I, I don’t have no disrespect for you. I’m not gonna disrespect you. But I mean, I don’t know you, bra. So what, what, I mean, what am I, what am I to call you but Mr. Washington? “Well, well, do I have any grandkids?” Yeah, from them! Herbert Wallace is m--is my children’s grandfather. “Oh. Well, I think you should change your last name.” Ha! Are you stupid? (laughs) Are you really that, that stupid that you think that I’m just gonna--because you wanna be a part of my life, like, right now, that I’m just supposed to up and say “Oooh, Dad! (inaudible) I’m gonna change my name!” No, bro, that’s not gonna happen. I wouldn’t disrespect Herbert Wallace like that, for whatever that man was. He was my father. If nothing else. That man was that for 13 years. And I won’t take that away from him. Did he treat me like a doormat? Yes. But at least he treated me like somethin’. That man claimed me when he didn’t have to. He knew I wasn’t his biological child. But yet still, for 13 years, that man let me call him daddy. That man made sure I had food in my mouth, a roof over my head, clothes on my back. When we went on vacation, he took me too. When he gave money for an allowance, I got money too. How dare you. I would never take that away from that man, whether he was still here or not. I would never take that away from him. He, he earned the right to have me call him Daddy, whether he was an abuser or not. He earned it. ‘Cause at least he was there. Might not have been in the right way, but at least he gave--at least he cared enough to have me in his house. ‘Cause he didn’t have to. At least he gave me that. He gave me 13 years of food, and then when he died, I mean we, I got his social security! When he died. Me and my brother. Got it ‘til I was 19. (sniff) (rustling) I thought you got cut off at 18 but no, they, they sent it to me for another whole year. But they, they cut it off when I turned 20. But I mean, it’s, even when this man passed away, my mother got his social security, know what I mean? For me and my, it was the three of us--my brother Richard, my brother Carlton and me. My brother Richard was like 16, 17. When my dad died.
(00:59:10)
No, he was like 17 ‘cause he only got it for 1 year. That’s how we knew we got cut off at 18. And uh. Well, yeah from 13 to 19. I received this man’s social security. So even not bein’ his biological kid, even in his death I profited. You couldn’t give me a dime? (pause) Come on, man. And when he passed away, my sister called me and she was like “I got somethin’ to tell you.” And I’m like “what?” She was like “Daddy died.” I’m like “my father’s been dead since I was 13.” She said “you know what I’m talking about.” “No? You mean Mr. Washington?” She was like “Whether you want to admit it or not, that man is your father.” I said “No, that man is a sperm donor. He donated some sperm to my mo and that’s how I got here. But that man has never did a fatherly thing for me. Ever. (pause) Even when i used to come down and visit ya’ll when ya’ll lived down in, uh, Red Bank, New Jersey. When ya’ll moved from North to down there. Even when we would come visit ya’ll, this man never treated me like I was his son! He never gave me n o special attention. CP was always his boy! That was always his son.” You know? That was always his namesake. So. Like. Know what I mean, like what do you want from me? I mean, am I, I feel for you. Because I know what it feels to lose a father. I feel for you. But I just can’t reach you. I can’t give you that kind of “aww, really?” that you lookin’ for. I, I can’t. I mean, I can let a lot of stuff go, but that’s one thing I, I, I’m, I’m still holdin’, I’m still holdin’ on to, I’m sorry. And I don’t know, maybe I have to let that go--I mean, I don’t hate’m. Let me clear that up. I don’t hate him. Never did. Even when the truth came out that he was my dad--well, biological father or whatever. Even when it all came out. I still never had no animosity towards him. I mean, why should I? I mean, come on, bra, I made it to 18 years without you. I made it to 18 years without you! Didn’t see you to 18 to 45!
(01:02:00)
I was 45 the next time I saw you. I was 45. We spent like maybe 4 hours together. And during that whole 4 hours, I really didn’t want to be bothered with you, but I was just bein’ respectful. ‘Cause I kept lookin’ at my, my watch and I kept askin’ my sister like “when are we goin’ back to your house?” And she was like “aaah, don’t, don’t try it. It’s not gonna work. You and I, we’re good.” But I, I don’t want this. I don’t want it. (pause) I’m just, I mean, I’m just bein’ honest with you. I don’t want it. For what! So he could go to sleep sayin’ “Ah yeah, well at least I made restitution with him!” Nah, that’s okay. No hard feelin’s here, big guy. Good on ya. And that’s just--I don’t know. Maybe… Maybe that’s one aspect of my life that I have to work on. You know? Maybe. Maybe that’s… I don’t know. Maybe that’s the one thing that’s blockin’ me from just really havin’.... A productive… I don’t--I don’t wanna say life? Because I, I think I have a pretty interestin’ life as it is. You now, even where there’s traffic--tragic as it is. I mean, like I tell people, I don’t want to tell that part of my story. I don’t wanna tell the tragic part. Tyler Perry already got that part wrapped up. “Oh, you know, I was homeless and sleepin’ in my car and I was abused and look at me now! I’m a billionaire!” Come on, he got that part sewed up. I wanna tell you… How I made it through. I don’t wanna tell you what I went through. I wanna tell you---I want my story to be how I survived it.
Charles, um… Let’s pause here--Oh, yeah! I’m sorry.
No, you’re great.
(01:04:22)
END THIRD RECORDING
END FIRST FOLDER (02/11/2020)
____________________________________________________________________________
SECOND FOLDER, 02/17/2020
(00:00:00)
Uh, it is 10:01 a.m. This is Dan Swern, uh, here at Elijah’s Promise on Neilson Street. It is Monday, February 17th and I’m here with--Charles Wallace.
Uh, we’re resuming our interview from last week. Um. Ah, Charles, where we last left off, I believe you were talking about the passing of your father. Mhm hmm.
Ah, if you, uh, wouldn’t mind just uh, jumping in and we’ll start right from there. Uhh… Well, uh, like I said, uh, I didn’t go to the funeral. Um. I meant, because I really didn’t, I really didn’t know the man. You know. Only by name. I don’t know anything about him, I don’t know anything about his background. I don’t even know what the man did for a living. So. I mean. I don’t know if I got other brothers and sisters out there that he may have fathered. Or. I mean, I, I don’t. I never met a grandparent. From his side or I don’t know if I got aunts or uncles or cousins or whoever. I don’t know. I mean. I didn’t feel no kind of way when he died. ‘Cause I didn’t know’m. Uh. Like I said, uh, my sister on his side, you know, she felt some kind of way that I didn’t come to the funeral. But. I mean. Why, I mean… First of all, it was in Virginia. And um, at the time I was livin’ here so, .I wasn’t gonna make that trip, you know, from here to Virginia. To go to a funeral. For a person that… I didn’t know. I didn’t know him. I mean, the only father I've ever known was Herbert Wallace. And I wasn’t gonna go there and pretend like I cared about this man or I loved him or it was a great loss in my life that he wasn’t there. You know. So. What would be the purpose of me goin’? And that’s just the attitude that I had towards that whole situation. (pause) And that’s all I gotta say about that. (pause)
Charles, do you mind if we go back to, ah, uh, passing of your--uh, of Herbert Wallace? Mhm hmm.
Um, I think that, that’s where we ended, I mean, chronologically. Mhm hmm.
Before we came forward to talk about your biological father. Mhm hmm. Well, yeah, like I said, uh… He got put in hospice. Uh. And my mom was like, you know, “I’m just gonna bring him home.” You know. ‘Cause at one point, we were, we were literally goin’ from school and we would go up to the hospital. We would be up there until about maybe 8:30, 9:00 at night, you know, sittin’ in the hospital. And then, you know, we would go home and, you know, we had to get baths in and so it wasn’t… ‘Til like maybe 11:30, 12:00 ‘til we were gettin’ in bed. Then we had to get up the next day and we had to go to school.
(00:03:12)
You know. So my mom decided it would be best for him to… Be at home with his family, try to make him as comfortable as, uh, they possibly could. And he died at, he died at home. Um. It was a, it was a loss. It was, like I said, that was the only father I’ve ever known. You know, even with all the abuse or whatever, I mean, but he was still my dad. Um. I mean, you know, it was like at 13, like I was telling you, like at 13 I just lost everything. You know. Um… Family. I mean, it was al--we were already… Displacin’. Already. But when he died, it just went from bad to worse. Because now you can openly...You know. Express how you feel. And like I said, I mean, bein’ a child, not havin’ anything to do to the reason why or what, or, or under what circumstances I may have been born under… I mean, nobody should have gone through what I went through. Nobody should have felt that pain. Of having grown people--I mean, I can--you can kinda understand a child's mentality and I don’t know, maybe that was to be expected? But from grown people? Treating a kid like that? I mean, I don’t, I have no--and that’s why I always I’ve always been by myself. I’ve, like I’ve never really had family. That’s why whenI lost my family, my ex-wife walked out on me, took my kids and then lied and said I was the one who was the abuser and, and, and even her own family was like “you’re stupid, that man has never done nothin’ to you but love you.” I was young when I got married. Uh, I was 18, she was 16. Uh, you know her mother signed for her to get married. And uh, you know, we, we were, we were doin’ grown things and she got pregnant. And uh… So. I mean, I had my life planned out. I was, I had a 4 year full scholarship to Florida State. Uh. I got out of school. I got out of school that June? And September, I was, I was goin’ to Florida State. You know. Start my baseball career, because nobody wasn’t gonna tell me that I wasn’t gonna play for the Yankees someday.
(00:06:12)
I mean, even though my, my family were Met fans. Nobody wasn’t gonna tell me I wasn’t gonna be a Yankee. That I wasn’t gonna be a New York Yankee. You couldn’t tell me that. I mean, Ozzie Smith was like the greatest baseball player who ever played the game to me at that time. I mean, some of the things that this man did on the baseball field was phenomenal. They used to call him the Wizard of Oz. That’s how, like, the tricks this man used to do with his barehanded, toss behind his back, you know, or like… Grab the ball, come down, step on the bag and wing it over to first base, man, you couldn’t tell me I wasn’t gonna be doin’ that for the rest of my life. Couldn’t tell me. Up in the mornin’, me and my oldest brother out in the snow, didn’t make a difference how cold it was outside. I remember, I could ground balls, 100 pop flies. Just, you know, just gearin’ myself. You know. For, you know, that--goin’ to the battin’ cage at 9, 10 years old and where most adults couldn’t hit that ball, wingin’ out that thing, man, I would crush it. At 9, 10. So as I got older, it just got even better. You know? Um. I was, I started, I was in, uh… hey said I couldn’t play JV. They said, they thought I was a ringer. They like, there’s no way that this kid is in the 9th grade and can play on the level that he play. So they, they put me off of JV. So… You know ,at the time, my mom was like “well, look. You’re n--you can’t tell me that my son can’t play the game because he's at the right age. You know and this, and this is where he should be playin’. You can’t tell him that he can’t play.” So she was gonna fight it. So it was me and this other kid named Abe Jiordix. This kid--he was a better baseball player than I was. This kid was phenomenal. At 13, he could throw a split finger fastball at 95 miles an hour. This kid, like… All through high school. No hitters. They couldn’t hit this kid was a, he just had a, he was just a phenomenal baseball player. But, you know. Same thing with me. You know. He got caught up in some bad things, made some bad choices. You know.
(00:08:59)
He missed out on his ride. I missed out on mines. You know? I mean, and that’s just life. You know, me gettin’ this letter, them tellin’ me that I gotta leave the shelter, that’s just part of life. I’m not--people like “Oh my--why you not--I would be so angry.” For what? Is that gonna change… If I went in there and I cursed and I yelled and I screamed at them. “Oh, other people been here for almost a year and you puttin’ me out!” Is that still gonna change their mind and let me stay? No. You still gotta go! So why degrade myself like that? I’m better than that. You can’t stop flow. You can’t. Even if you build a dam, the, the water, even though it’s all… Condensed right there, but it still flows. It just not, it’s just not goin’ downstream. But it flows. Even confined, it flows. You can’t stop it. It’s cause and effect. I’m always gonna have a cause, so I’m always gonna be an effect. And that’s how I look at life. I have, I have no choice. You know? I mean… Lost my mom in 2017, my sister 2018, my brother and my great niece 2019 on the same day. Different states, but on the same day. So three years I’ve been dealin’ with death. So now who’s it gonna be in 2020? Is it gonna be my sister that’s in PA? My brother in Virginia--I mean, Savannah? My brother in New York? Or is it gonna be me? So who’s gonna be the next one of us that die in 2020? Will we make it through this year without no death in my family? Me not losin’ nobody. And this is, I look at things real--realistically. Know what I’m sayin’? I mean and, my sister, she’s so, she got so much anxiety that this woman don’t even wanna leave the house--she’s afraid to even go out the house. And that’s another reason that I’m tryin’ to move up to PA, so I can, you know, be with her. You know? She doesn’t even wanna go out to go shoppin’. Just, she’s literally just afraid to go outside. Why would you live your life like that? I can’t do it. I can’t, I do--.. I done lost so much in life. What else can anybody take from me? I mean, we, we talked about that earlier ,you know, when we talked about this earlier. I mean, what could you take from me? Even if you take my life, God can give me that back. So what, I mean, why am I gonna walk around upset or angry or mad? For what? I can’t change to the fact that my mom’s gone. My brother, my sister, my niece, my dad. You know? All his brothers--all of them passed--all of them dead! The only one that was left was my uncle Paul, and he died maybe like 4, 5 years ago. So he was the last line of the older generation of the Wallaces.
(00:12:23)
You know? And… They, their kids is now droppin’ off. Dyin’ at young ages. You know, I had a cousin, Douglas. Died of a massive heart attack. He, he was a, he’s a gospel singer. And he as at a concert on stage, praisin’ the Lord, singin’ his gospel music and had a massive heart attack right there on stage and dropped--it ain’t funny, but I mean, it’s kind of iconi--(laughing) it’s kind of ironic. You sittin’ there singin’ and praisin’ the Lord and you die of a massive heart attack right there while you singin’ to God. So he, you know, I mea, that was his sing. He was singin’ to God. And boom, right there, heart attack, drop dead right there. At like 50---no, no no no, my sister Nadeen is, is… 61. Then Dougy was like maybe… 58, 59? Maybe 60. ‘Cause I know she was a few years older than him. But I mean you, you keelin’ over in your 60s, man. Where does that leave any of us?I mean, I could walk out there and I can die. So what am I gonna leave behind? What does any of us leave behind? I mean you got some people who write memoirs or books or whatever. I mean, but think about it--I mean, even as you, even with yourself. Just. Speakin’ in general. If you was to go today or tomorrow, what would they have to say about you? What would be your legacy? I mean, I don’t know if you have any children or anything like that but what would be, what would they notice you for? What would be your contribution to the world when you’re gone? My brother Richard was one of the most talented people that I knew in this world, on this Earth. And he died a crackhead. My sister said “oh, he wasted his life.” No he didn’t. That man lived the way he wanted to live. We might not have agreed with the choice that he made, but he lived his life his way. So who am I to say bad things about anybody who chooses to live their life their way?
(00:15:02)
Isn’t that what life was all about? One becoming to know who they are? Or what they want to be? He wanted to be a crackhead. Been smokin’ it ever since he was about 15, 16 years old. His choice. Could sing. Had a beautiful voice ,my brother. Could write music. Could paint. He could look at a picture--he could look at a sunrise and 2 weeks later, paint the exact sunrise he saw 2 weeks ago to the match. That’s how talented this boy was. They told my mother that this, this Jewish man--cause he was in Job Corps. And this Jewish man met my brother. And he wanted, he, he asked my mom, “let your son come, let your son come live with me. Let me take him.” She said “I can, he, that he said, I can turn him into something that, that’s gonna be amazin’.” But my mother wouldn’t do it.She wouldn’t let him go. My brother wanted to go. But my mother said no. She wasn’t gonna give her child to somebody else. But you gave me away when I was a kid, even though you came back to et me. But you gave me away. When I was, you know, I had to be about… (pause) Maybe 5 or 6. Cause I, I do remember for like a small period, my dad had left. And I’m… SO I’m assuming that this is when the truth truth… Started to come out. Because, like I said, if you was to take a picture of my biological father and a picture of mead hold it up when we both were younger, you would think that I was him, because that’s how much we look alike. So, it became apparent. That… Okay. Come on. This kid is not mine. You know? Come on. So. I do remember my mother, I do remember… (pause) I mean, and it wasn’t like an argument-argument cause like I said, I never heard my father raise his voice at my mom, I never saw him hit my mother or degrade her in any kind of way, but they… I mean, all I remember was that my mom was cryin’ and she kept asking him not to go. And… You know, she called my aunt and she asked my aunt, I mean, not my aunt but my cousin. Would, you know, would you, would you take him? Now, I mean, at the time she, ‘cause she never used my name, but she said “would you take’m?” And of course you know my cousin said “yeah”. And… I do. I remember livin’ with my aunt. I mean my cousin, for like 6 months. And uh… Like literally, I didn’t see--I mean, my mom would come by periodically to bring clothes and stuff like that but I didn’t see my dad or none of my siblings for that 6 months.
(00:18:37)
And uh. It was just before I was gettin’ ready to go to bed, ‘cause it was, it was my bedtime. It’s a knock on the door. And it’s my mom and my dad. And my dad walks in and he looks, he says, he says “get dressed.” So now I hear my aunt, I mean my cousin Dicey and my mom and my dad talkin’. And my dad’s voice is gettin’ high. And he said “I’m comin’ to get my son and ain’t nobody gonna stop me from takin’ my son.” And then that’s when I kind of...You hear it, but then you “did they just say that? He’s not your son.” So I heard it for the first time when I was like maybe 5 or 6. “He’s not your son. He’s doin’ better-he’s doin’ good here.” Which I was! ‘Cause there was no beatings. You know. I mean, I was doin’ a little bit better in school. You know, ‘cause I wasn’t reclusive. I wasn't tight. You know. Like, just wouldn’t talk to the teachers. ‘Cause I didn’t trust adults. I didn’t. Because the, the adults was the ones that was hurting me, and you’re supposed to be my protector. So I had no trust of, of people who were older than me. I didn’t trust you. There was nothin’ you could say to me to make me trust you. You know. But I started to trust my cousin. Her and uh, her husband. You know. First time I ever went fishin’. My cousin Richie took me. (pause) First time I learned how to ride a bike. Cousin Richie. Bike with the trainin’ wheels. Taught me how to ride a bike. When most bigger kids, you know… Was learnin’ how to ride bikes, I learned how to ride a bike at like 5, 6 years old. You know? I was, I remember standin’ there watchin’ her cook chicken, fried chicken. That’s why I can cook so good, because I started watchin’ her cook and then when my mom came back and got me, I would just sit down in there--like most kids be outside playin’, doin’ all that kind of stuff. I would sit there and watch my mom in that kitchen cookin’. And I was like “I can do that.”
(00:21:10)
So, when I was like maybe 10 is when I cooked my first meal by myself. I got up early in the mornin’, cause I saw how my mom did the eggs so I put the, put the fire on low and I’m doin’ the sausage and--’cause they had a store called Murry’s back in those, back in those times. And uh, you could get like a box of 60 sausage links for like 2 dollars and change. And uh, so my mom would buy like may--she would get 2 boxes of the pork and 2 boxes of the beef ‘cause you know, some of my siblin’s didn’t eat pork. And uh. So I, I, so I would make 10 of the pork, I made 10 of the beef. And I… You could--’cause my mother never used grease or anything like--I mean, she would never use butter, she would just use the grease from the sausage or the bacon, whichever one she cooked to cook her eggs in. It was really good. Fat and cholesterol, but it was really good. (laughs) And uh, you know, you open up the biscuits and you put it on the little sheet. You preheat the oven so, my mom thought it was my dad and my dad thought it was my mom cookin’ ‘til they both rolled over and touched each other and they was like “Well who in there cookin’ if you in here?” So then they thought it was one of my sisters who just got up early and decided they was gonna cook breakfast. By the time everybody got up, I had everything ready. Even the KoolAid. We drunk KoolAid with everything, it’s a black thing. (laughs) Stereotypical but it’s, but it’s just true. Back in those days, KoolAid was the drink of choice. (laughs) I mean, and that was, that was my introduction to cookin’. Man, but when I was in that kitchen, it was like playing baseball for me. That was the only thing that I loved more than cooking, was baseball. And… Like I said, it was, I mean… I… I can’t remember ever bein’ a time--I’m not gonna say I was never happy. But if I did have any kind of happiness growing up, it wasn’t, it wasn’t long lived. You know. It might have been a moment. And then it’s okay, it’s back to normal. It’s back to treating Charles the way we always treat him. You know. One of the biggest things for me was, we didn’t have a lot of money and uh, my dad and my mom would take us to Coney Island. And uh, they would give us 20 dollars. Each. And back then, a pop ticket, it was like, it was like 5 dollars and 75 cents or something like that for um. A pop ticket. And that way you got on, you could get on all of the rides.
(00:24:17)
As many times as you want to. And then you know, you had the rest of that 20 dollars, that was yours to like, you know, ha--play--you know, like play like the Skeeball and stuff like that and, we would get hotdogs, cotton candy, you know. So. And… Before we leave, we always went to Nathans. We always had a footlong Nathan’s hotdogs. Just orange foamy stuff. Oh, that was nothin’ but straight diabetes in a cup. That stuff was so sweet, man. (laughs) But, I don’t know. I, to this day, we don’t even know what that stuff was, all we know is that it was orange with froth like right at the top. This thick frost. And we would drink it all. And then by the time it would get to the bottom the, the, the foam would, you know, kinda, uh… (pause) Loosen? And you could suck it through the straw? Aw, that was just straight sugar. Oh, that was just, yeesh. And then we would go sit out at the airport and we would just watch the planes take off and come in. And a, and that’s when I would sit there and I would tell my dad “someday I’m gonna buy you season tickets to the Yankees.” ‘Cause he was a Yankees fan. Everybody else was Met’s fan. My dad was a Yankees fan. That was the only reason why I wanted to play for them. ‘Cause I figured if I could play for the Yankees, I’d know he’d love me. And I did. But I was… When I got that scholarship to Florida State, Oh, my God. I just wish he was alive to share it with me. You know I, You know I could, psh, all that time I was out there and floatin’ trophies and stuff that I won, it paid off, look. I’m goin’ to Florida State. ‘Cause at that time, the New York Yankees was like one of their biggest alumni. They would donate millions of dollars to they uh, athletic program and a large sum of that went to they baseball program. That’s why, if you, if you look through the history, Florida State have one of the best baseball teams. Ever. They, they won a lot of college, uh, World Series, Florida State. Because, just like Stein Brenner would buy his teams? You know, let’s say you had like Dow Strawberry, uh… .Dwight Gooden, you know pl--you know, players like that who were really, really good, you would acquire them from all of the teams. Yo would put these dynasty teams together, and that’s why the Yankees dominated baseball. You know, during the 70s and the 80s. They were like the team that was just beatin’ everybody. Because Stein Brenner would buy these massive teams and he would do the same thing when it came to… Uh, the, the baseball program. Because 9 times out of10, that’s where all of they talent came from--Florida State. So. I mean I, I, I did the research. I did everything. So I was like “yeah I’m about to go to--I’ma get a, I’ma get accepted to Florida State.” ‘Cause that’s where I wanted to go, i didn’t want to go to no other schools. So I didn’t even apply anywhere else. ‘Cause I was like “I’m gonna get in.” (laughs) You wasn’t gonna stop me. I was gonna be a Yankee. But there’s power in a vagina. That’s all I’m sayin’. (laughs)
(00:27:59)
Because I got my ex-wife pregnant, so my other was like “Look. You doin’ grown things.” I mean, and I’m, I’m sayin’ that--if my dad was alive, I mean, ‘cause we didn’t believe in abortion, so I’m not sayin’ that, uh… She would have got an abortion. ‘Cause we didn’t believe in those. My, my father--that was one thing that my father didn’t believe, that’s why it was so many of us, ‘cause he didn’t believe in abortin’ babies. But if, if my dad was alive, I would have been, I would have went to college and I would have become a baseball player. ‘Cause he would have been like “No, you can take better care of your family if you go ahead and accomplish your dream. You would be able to better take care of them.” I mean, and I would’ve. You know? But I didn’t have that guidance--like I said my, my other siblings, they were much older than me, and then, you know, by the time everything came out they didn’t have nothin’ to do with me no way. You know? Uh… My brother that, my brother that died? Me and him didn’t start gettin’ close ‘til like 5 years ago. You know? Just one day, my phone rang and--I mean, and usually don’t answer numbers that I don’t know, but some, somethin’ told me, “Just answer the phone.” And I answered and it was him. I mean, and for the first time, he said”I’m sorry little brother.” He said “I could have been a better big brother.” And that’s all he said. And we talked from there. We started talkin’. And then, you know. I would, he would call and check on me, I would call and check on him. And that’s why when he died it was just, it was so hard when he died You know, because we had just started puttin’ our, you know--we just started puttin’ our relationship back together, ‘cause like I said I’ve been estranged from my family for years. You know, I’ve, I mean, I’ve been a loner all my life. You know, i old you since I was 13 years old, might as well say I was (inaudible). ‘Cause my mom was never home. ‘Cause uh, she went to ah, Essex County first. Graduated with high honors. And then she went to… Uh, Rutgers. And she was at Rutgers for a while. But I never knew until I die, that my mom was deemed as a scholar. That she wrote papers that was published, you know. Uh. In her field. Sh e would give, uh, lectures. And that’s why she was never home. But see, I never knew none of that. I never knew none of that about my mom until she died. And it was in her obituary. And I was like wow. You know, that just goes to show you, like, you know. Those 15 years me and her ain’t talk to each other, that was… I missed out on a lot! (laughs) ‘Cause yeah, me, me and my mother didn’t talk for like 15 years.
(00:31:05)
We were estranged from each other. ’Cause I felt that she betrayed--because she… She embraced my ex-wife. And. Her mother, her mother died when she was 18. My ex-wife. Her mother died. And my mother made a promise to my ex-wife, she said “no matter what, I’ll always be there for you.” She said “I could never be your mother, and I would never try to take the place of your mother, but what I can do is be there for you in the, in a motherly--in, in capacity.” And she did. My mother held to that. She, I mean, I’m thinkin’ like,, you know, after the div-- after we broke up and divorced “okay, you,” you know, “we’ll see the kids, but other than, you know, you have some dealin’s with my ex-wife, anything like that, now.” Never happened. The man she left me for was callin’ my mother “mom”. They goin’ on vacations together. So it was like, somebody just like literally--and you know this woman cheated on me! You know she walked out and took my kids! And you gonna be--I mean. When you young, you don’t understand that you love who you love.And my mother did, she loved my ex-wife. And she in turn loved my mom. All the way up until my mother died. Her and my ex-wife was always close. And even though we put our relationship back together, I always felt just a little bit jealous of my ex-wife because I always felt that she had a special part of my mom that I could never have. I mean, when we would go out together, people would think that my mother was her mother because they both light skinned, both had long, beautiful hair. Same color eyes. So everybody thought that that was her daughter. And I was, I was the person who married into the family. And that, it did used to make me mad. “Oh my God, you have such a beautiful daughter!” And my mother never was like “oh this is my, my daughter-in-law”. She was like “Oh, thank you.” Like you’re, you’re accepting that. I mean, but when you young you don’t understand. I mean that as an older man now, you know. That was just my mom bein’ my mom, ‘cause that’s who she was. You know. Hard on your kids but love everybody else. (laughs) I mean, come on. How many times have you heard that story? You know, “Oh, you can be so good to everybody else kids and whatever but you treat your kids like trash!” You know, I mean, but that’s the way of life! You know? I mean. Growing up back in those times… (pause) We didn’t go see therapists. You know.
(00:33:58)
It was Jesus. And the Bible. You know, your grandmother, “Jesus gonna work it out, baby. You ain’t got to take him nowheres. It’s just--pray to Jesus.” You know. You got sick, they didn’t take us to a hospital. We got salves. “Go get some salves, put some salves on him and give him some ‘Tussin’”. What? What does that--that’s Robutusin, they don’t even make--(laughs) They don’t even make that anymore. (laughs) Straight alcohol! Did you ever notice, did you realize that that was like 25% alcohol in Robitussin? (laughs) And you givin’ this to little kids and you wonderin’ why kids from my era was alcoholics! ‘Cause you been pumpin’ us with that crap ever since we were kids! You know what I mean? I mean… I remembered my mother cuttin’ up onions and puttin’ them in our shoes like if we had high fevers? My mother never took us to no doctor. If you was bleedin’ that was somethin’ different. But if you just had a temperature and a cough? You ain’t gonna sit in no emergency room for no 8 hours for them to give me some antibi--” Look. You get ole’ granddad and you go get that rock candy and that peppermint and they would make a--we used to call it the Witches Brew. ‘Cause they used to take uh… It used to be cod liver oil, rock candy, Rockin’ Ride--it was like really cheap gut rock whiskey. Not whiskey but uh--Night Train, you ever heard of Night Train? It’s, it’s, it’sa cheap, it’sa cheap liquor. And they, they used to be with the Rockin’ Ride, lemon, and they would, they would mix, they would mix this concoction up in a pot, and then they would let it cool off. And they would give you a hunkin’ teaspoon of this crap. (pause) Ugh… That stuff was so thick and nasty. Ooo! Just the thought about that just make me wanna--ooo, God I can’t believe they used to make us take that stuff. So when we was little, we tried not to cough around them. What we did--we used to try to like, make sure they didn’t hear us cough, ‘cause if they heard you cough--”Come here!” “Oooohh….” I mean it, it, when they--(laughs) it stung! And they opened it, and they would get a, they would get a tablespoon, man, and they would dip that tablespoon in there and you could hear it go (slurp) when they pull it out. It would make that noise! And I mean, there would just be a hunk sittin’ there and they’d be like “Open your mouff!” and you’d be cryin’! (laughs) Oh, man, it was a crazy time, man. But that was our lives!
(00:37:06)
That’s, that’s how we just, that’s how we grew up, man. We got beat. There was no time out. There was no “oh, you go stand in the corner.” No. You got your butt whooped. Then you got put on punishment. And you didn’t get a “Oh, you’re in punishment for two days” or “Oh, you’re in punishment for a week”, no we got prison sentences. Know what I’m sayin’? All depends on what you did. Punishment, punishment starts at 6 months. My brother got a bad report card? After that butt whoopin’ he got? He was on punishment until the next report card cycle. Bring your grades up, you can go back outside.You can start watchin’ tv. So, you know, if you gotta sit in your room all night long, all everyday, only come out to eat, use the bathroom. We read. You know? I had to read Romeo and Juliet when I was…. (pause) i don’t know, maybe like 11? Moby Dick. Old Men and the Sea. Three Little Women. I mean all of these--Tom Sawyer. All of the books. Know what I mean? All of those movies. They came out with the Lord of the Rings? Oh man, I don’t know if you ever read the books but you gotta read the books. Yeah, those movies ain’t got nothin’ on those books. The way that it goes into depth of, of what happened and things like--I mean, so that, that’s what, you know, that was our leisure if you were on punishment. Oh, you didn’t get to play! You know? And then we had to write what we read about. See, and my mother whole thing was “See, I’m not gonna give you a book to read that I already, that I had reread, so I know what's in the book. So you can’t fake me out.” And it’s like, you know, read maybe 3 or 4 pages in the front, maybe 3 or 4 in the middle, 3 or 4 in the back, and then you write (laughs) about what you, what you read on those few pages, ‘cause then my mother actually started asking questions, “well what happened,” you know, “When Smaug realized that, uh, Bilbo was in the uh… cave?” What? (laughs) So, you know, we had to read, we had to read, we had to read the books. So by the time I got into high school, I read like Moby Dick and all of those books so I could just write the report! They was like “man, you finished already?” “Yeah, man.” “How you finished already man? It took me a week just to read the book!” Psh. I done read that book like 3 times. (laughs)
(00:40:00)
‘Cause I stayed on punishment. Like I said, I wasn’t a bad kid. I just get bored quick. So when you get bored, you find stuff to do. So, we would take like, we would take apart the tv. My brother that was older than me? We would just…. Take the TV apart. And my dad would like, come home and flip out. But when the tv broke--’cause see back then, it was just fuses. I mean, nowadays you gotta just go get a brand new TV. You know, or they had the TV repair man who would literally come out to your house and fix your TV. But charge you an arm and a leg. Ain’t have to call my father, ain’t have to call no TV repairman. Me and my brother take that TV apart, “okay, you need this, go down to the hardware store and get this bulb.” And we was tryin’ to see if, if it blew right there, when it pop like that, when it’s broke. And he would go down there, get that thing, put that TV back together. It worked. I mean, but that was our lives. You know? Simpler times. Your primarily was what your father was, so that’s why my oldest brother went to the military. ‘Cause my dad spent 20 years in the military. And then when he came out the military, he came out to work at the...He went to work for the post office. See, my mom and--my mom had me late in life, I think she was like 35? When she had me? So. And um. He was li--by the time I came along, he wasn’t travelin’ anymore so we was based in Jersey. I mean, but my oldest brothers and all them been to Germany and, you know, all of those places like that ‘cause they traveled with my dad. You know. ‘Cause if he’s movin’, he’s takin’ his family wherever he’s goin’. So, like my older older siblings. They went--by the time they had my brother Richard, ‘cause he was, he never go to travel neither. So. It was before he passed away, my uh,it was my brother Raymond, my brother Herbert, my sister Nadeen, my sister Zerena and my brother Derek--that was 5 got to travel all over with my dad and my momma. And then by the time Richard came, he was, he was lie on the decline--it was time to get out. So he was stationed right here in Jersey, but he was in Fort Lee. But we lived in Newark. So he would be just right up there on the base in, you know, we just had the house.
(00:43:00)
So. you know, like, weekends he would come home and. It was like… I, I mean, that’s why when I got married it was like “don't bother me”. (laughs) My mother never bothered my father! He nev--my mother never bothered my father. But what i didn’t realize was, when, like, how my father would find out what, what, (stuttering) What happened in the house, was when him and my mother was in a room together. ‘Cause then, you know, we wasn’t, we wouldn’t, we wasn’t allowed to go in our parents room. I think the first time I ever went in my mother’s room because she just needed her medicine, I was like 23 years old. I mean that’s, as kids. You know, we just didn’t go in there. And if the door was closed? We wasn’t allowed to open it. That just, that was a no-no. You don’t open the door. You don’t knock and then you walk in my room. You wait ‘til I say “who is it” and then you tell, you tell me who you are. And then when we say “Come in”, you open the door, but you don’t come in, you stand at the door. Because my father felt, what’s in my room is my business. That, that’s me and your mother’s business. We shared a whole rest of this house with ya’ll. Ya’ll can go in and out of any one of these rooms in this house as much as you want all day every day, but this room belongs to your mother and me. This is our space. You don’t come in our space. I mean, and that's how I was, you know, with my, when I was growin’, with my kids when I was growin’ up. I mean, when they would come-my ex-wife, she couldn’t understand that. She was like “Why do you treat them like that?” I didn’t hug my kids when they were y--when I was little. ‘Cause I didn’t get hugged. I mean, I hugged my daughter. But I had sons. Men don’t hug men. That’s, that’s what I was taught. You shake a man’s hand. Look him in his eyes. And you shake his hand. But men don’t hug. My fat--my grandfather never hugged my father. He never hugged us when we would go see’m. My grandmother would grab us and “oh, my babies!” But if you walked up to Benjamin and tried to hug him? (sniff) No, to the arm. One pat on the back? No. And when we would go down there to Florida to visit them? We was up. 5 in the mornin’. My brothers would chop--my oldest siblings would chop the wood, and me and my brother, we would carry the wood to the side of the house. That, and I mean that, that was our summers until my daddy died. ‘Cause after that my mother was like “I’m not drivin’ all the way down to Florida, you can forget that. “
(00:46:00)
‘Cause at that point, her mother and father already had passed away, so. She was like ain’t no need for me to go down there. So. Ya’ll ain’t got to go no more if ya’ll don’t want to go. Now, we didn’t want to go because that was little kid prison. We had to be in bed by 4 o’clock. Seriously. I’m talkin’ like tucked in. Kids runnin’ around outside, playing outside at 4 o’clock in the afternoon while it’s still light outside. We’re, we done had dinner, tucked in and everything. (laughing) You think I’m playin’ man, but for real, my life was rough! And this woman could tuck you into bed, man, and you could not get out. I was like “I don’t understand how this woman would tuck those corners in so tight but you like literally couldn’t--you had maybe just enough room to maybe turn on your side and stuff like that. You wasn’t allowed to drink nothin’ after uh, 2. Because you wasn’t peein’ in her bed. (pause) I’m serious, man! Hard. life, man. I tell people, man, ya’ll don’t know what a hard life is until you… had to grow up… Choppin’ wood. Um. Milkin’ a cow! First time I ever seen a chicken get its neck rung I cried--I was like “Aunt Jess killed the chicken!” I was just out there playin’ with this thing, chasin’ it, tryin’ to catch it. And you gonna break its neck! And, we’re gonna--we’re eating the chicken, are you serious? But. Yeah, I had… It’s a different taste. I don’t know if you’ve ever had freshly killed chicken? But it’s totally different from that chicken you buy in stores. Totally different. Fresh pig? Totally different from. You know. Like ribs and stuff that you’ll buy? ‘Cause we used to uh, have a pig--a pig pickin’. Every summer. You know, they would uh… Get a, a pig and they would f--you know, they would feed it special for the whole year and get this thing nice big and plump. And then they would kill--they would kill the pig. Split him open and do whatever they were gonna do with’m. I mean and that’s why I don’t eat hog-mozzled chicklin’ and hog head cheese and stuff like that ‘cause they would take--you didn’t waste nothin’ off the pig. They would make hog head cheese. They would--some people called it liver puddin’ and some people call it scrapple. ‘Cause it’s like, it’s all of the stuff that’ left over from the pig after you skin it, cut it up--and that’s what they’d make the hog head cheese and all that? That stuff from--just the nastiest stuff that you ever wanted to taste?
(00:49:04)
That life? And, and then they would do the hog mozzled and the chicklin’s, what they would do is they would dig this big hole and then they would put the coal and everything down there, and then they would cover it with like a, it was like a, like a, maybe a, a metal piece that like, that make it wide, you know, that make a big…. They take that pig and they put that thing down in the ground and they would cover it up and I’m like “okay, who's gonna eat that?” Like, they would wrap it up and then they would put it back in the ground, and then they would cook the pig all day. And I mean, you could, I mean you could literally smell this thing cookin’, you’re like man! It’s really--they really cookin’ that pig in the ground! It was like one of the craziest things, man. You know what I’m sayin? If you never seen it before. You know? I mean and then you, like, everybody would come over and you had catfish and whiting and, you know, you had the aunts that would make the potato salad and you know you got that one aunt “oh, my potato salad better than everybody else’s!” but she was the one who always took hers home ‘cause nobody ate it? (laughs) That was, yeah, but we used to have pig pickin’s man! It was the coolest thing. And you--when it’s done, you can take this pig out. And then you just, like, you cut, you cut it up, you know, you take out the ribs. And all of that but like the, the butt parts? The butt? You chop that up and that’s how they would make the pulled pork. And, and the skin would be so… I mean, it was, it wasn’t hard, and it wasn't too soft, it was just had the right crunch to it. And that, and that, and that was called a Pig Pickin’. And they would like, they have turns havin’ it at different people’s houses. Every year. But after, it’s like after my dad died, al of that stuff stopped. You know, it was… He was like the, he, he was a hard man. Very complex. But Herbert Wallace was a walkin’ dictionary. This man was intelligent. Beyond words. I mean, he would sit down and in the course of a day, do like maybe 15 of those crossword puzzles. Like it wasn’t nothin’. I mean. He was just… (pause) I don’t know, man. He was just. He was different. I don’t, i, I can’t put into words. To describe my dad. (pause) Okay. He, his thing was, there’s no such thing as optimism or pessimism. Because you know, if you look at it as the glass half empty, you’re, you’re, you’re a pessimist, but if you look at it half full, then you’re optimist. He was like, “just be thankful that there’s something in the cup period. Don’t make a difference at what level it is, just be, just be thankful that you have something. It doesn't make a difference if it’s half empty or half full or whatever they want to call it.” And… He never talked to us like we were kids. (pause) He, if he was gonna, if he was gonna tell you about something, he was gonna tell you ab out it. You Know? So.. Very young in life I learned about sex. I learned what the conseqeuences would be if you had unprotected sex. I knew about--I mean, we didn't have the diseases that they have now. You know, back when I was growin’ up. ‘Cause all you had why syphilis. VD. (laughs) You know, and you get a shot, take them little penicillin pills or whatever.
(00:53:23)
And in 7 days it was gone. It was curable. Now you got stuff that… We walk around with like luggage. yOU done bought it. It’s yours. You know? I mean but, he told--he, he would sit down and he would, he would just, he would be honest and just--and, and my mom. She never really wanted him to uh… Talk to us like that. I mean, but. That was how he was raised. So I can’t really say growin’ up was wrong. Or the beatings was wrong. Because that’s how he was raised, so that’s what he knew. He didn’t know how to be affectionate. He didn’t know how to… His, his definition of love was him goin’, him gettin’ up and going to carry that mailbag. ‘Cause he was, after he got out of the military, he pretty much go work for the post office. And that’s the job he had until he died. That was his job. He sat me down and he said to me one time “I am the king of my castle. But your mother runs it. So, (laughs) it’s what your mother say, that’s what go.” (pause) He said “if I had to pay your mother for every job that she did, I wouldn’t be able to afford her.” He said “because she’s the cleaner. The cook. She goes to buy the groceries. She wash the clothes.” You know, I mean, he was honest. “She makes love to me whenever I want to. Even when she goes on vacation, your mother’s not on vacation. We all are, but not your mother. Because she still has to et up in the mornin’ and make sure you all are dressed. Then she gotta make sure everybody gets to the car. And then when we go to, out to eat she gotta make sure everybody have what they want. Even when she gets back at home, she gotta make sure all ya’ll have ya’ll baths and in bed. So even when this woman is supposed to be relaxin’ and havin’ fun, she’s workin’.” He said “so I would never be able to afford your mother.” And that’s why he held my mother in such high regards. Do I think my dad ever cheated on my mom? No. But you couldn’t tell her that he didn’t. (pause) He loved my mom. (pause) And that’s one thing I’ll tell anybody. My dad loved my mother. (pause) It’s like seein’ them two together was… (pause)You ever saw the movie, uh… (pause) (sigh) American Beauty? (pause) The Beauty--remember when the bag, he was just, he filmed the bag, just blowin’ around? But it was one of the most beautifullest things you’ve ever seen? Just watchin’ that bag blow. In the wind. And that was one of the most powerful statements in the movie. I don’t know if people got it, what the, what that bag meant? Not only did it depict beauty? Freedom.
(00:57:06)
Because that bag can blow and go whoever it wants to go. It’s free. And that’s how my mother and my father was. They was like that bag. They wasn’t confided with the things that went on around. They wasn’t concerned… With… Nothin’ that went on outside that house. My father said “if I cannot have...peace in my home, I don’t need to be here.” He said “I deal with all of that foolishness outside.” When my father came in and closed that door, he never talked to my mother ‘bout his job. “Oh, that person did this and I don’t want--” Never. My mother, my mother never heard about my father’s job. Because he was like “that’s out there. I’m with my family now. >I ain’t punchin’ no clock here. I’m not on, I’m not gettin’ paid to tell you about what happened in my day. So I don’t care--that that’s outside my house. And my mother never asked him. “But what did you do today?” She might ask him “how was your day?” And he’ll say… “It was a day.” Or. “I had, I got finished my route a little early. So they had me flip down and help somebody else that needed a little help--” ‘cause he, my father had like this--it wasn’t deep? He didn’t like--his dad had a deep voice. Like, Mufasa. So, my grandfather’s voice is like (imitating a deep voice) “Let me tell you somethin’ boy, you better sit down and stop playin’ before I hurt you.” (voice back to normal) Plain and simple, that was his voice. But my father was like somewhere in between, like a Morgan Freeman. (imitating Morgan Freeman) “I’m only gonna tell you this one time, son, you better sit down and I ain’t playin’ whitcha!” That was my dad. He was like right there with it. That was, that was like my dad’s voice. Like he, like he coulda did a dub for Morgan Freeman. That, that was his, that was his voice. And he would make everything… (pause) like, right there in your face. I mean, he told me flat out, he said “as a black man, you’re gonna have hard times in America, man.” He’s, it’s just. That’s just the way life is. He said “Is it right? No. It’s not right.” He said “but you’re gonna be judged my the color of your skin and not your character.” He said “so prepare yourself. ‘Cause you’re gonna get told no. You’re gonna get doors slammed in your face. You gonna be called a nigger. It’s inevitable. It’s gonna happen.” He said “but it’s how you as a man perceive all of these things that happen to you.”
(01:00:03)
(pause) And then he broke down the definition of what a nigger really is. He said that they could call us ‘niggers’ back in those days. Why is because it means “not to know.” He said “see, you have to know the meaning of a word to adjust to it.” So he said “do you have common sense?” And I said “yes” and he said “so you will never be a nigger. So even if they call you one, don’t get mad, don’t get upset. Don’t wanna fight,” he said, “because that’s what a nigger would do. A nigger would get mad and want to fight.” He said “but a man is gonna laugh and walk away. Now, when they try to put their hands on you, that’s something different. Then you defend yourself.” He said “but it’s just a word, and that doesn’t define who you are!” He said “take it like a grain of salt.” And I learnt that…. At a, very young age. Um. Had to be about… 11 years old. ‘Cause this was like right around the time he started to get sick. We knew somethin’--like I said, we knew something was, cause he just wasn’t himself all the time? But uh. We used to do this thing called “Family Fun Day Sunday”. And… Just as a family, he, we were going somewhere. He would give us that. And on this one occasion, we went to Echo Land Bowling Alley. And we had to go to the bathroom, and my brother took us to the bathroom. So if I was like 11, maybe like, maybe 10 or 11 so that means my brothers, my brother Derek had to be maybe like 15, 16, ‘cause, you know, that’s like the age difference between us. So he had to be about 15, 16 years old. And… (pause) We went to the bathroom, and one of m--and my brother Carlton over me said “I’m thirsty.” And there was a gentleman, standin’ in the bathroom, Caucasian, and uh. He said “excuse me, sir ,do you know where the water fountain is?” And he said “yeah, nigger, it’s right here,” and he pulled his penis out and he peed in front of me and my brothers. Now, I’m a little kid. I got scared. I was froze. I had never seen anything like that. My brother took off runnin’. Went and got my dad. Now this grown man, just pulled his penis out and peed on some little kids… Was sittin’ there laughin’ with his friends like that was the funniest thing that ever happened. And you’re braggin’ about peein’ on little kids. Like, what did I do to you to make you want to degrade me like that?
(01:02:57)
(pause) And that’s what racism is. People don’t--they--you don’t even know why you hate me! I’m not sayin’ you, per say, I’m just sayin’, the, the race itself. Don’t even know why you really hate me.You don’t know. But you’re taught you’re supposed to. ‘Cause racism is taught, you’re not born with it. It’s something that’s taught to you from when you’re a little kid, ‘cause if you could put two little kids together, they could be black, white, Latino, whatever, Asian, whatever, you can put little kids together and they’re gonna play. Because they have no concept of what color is. Only thing they see another little kid, and “I’m gonna play with you.” But now… As your child starts to grow up. And you hear your parents… Talk about this race or that race or this race or that race, now it’s bein’ imbedded in you. So… The more you get older, you’er gonna adapt those same… feelin’s of your parents. Because what do children do? They tend to emulate… Those things, the things that’re around us. You got an alcoholic? 9 times out of 10 your kid is gonna grow to be an alcoholic ‘cause that’s all they see. They emulate what they see. Smoker? Drugs? (pause) If you see people runnin’ in and out yo house… Little young girls seein’ they mothers with different men? Because in your mind, “okay, this is what… This is what happens.” A kid grows up watchin’ his mother get smacked around, beat up, okay, this is what grown people do, so now as he starts to get older, that’s what he’s gonna do. He’s gonna, when he can’t get his own way and he gets mad, he’s gonna result to violence. To hit. Because that’s what you’re being taught growing up. And that’s what it’s all about, man. You have to, you can be who you are. And that’s fine. But be who you are. Don’t sit in my face and “oh, yeah, you’re a great guy!” and then behind my back “that’s a nigger. I can’t stand him.” Tell me that to my face. (pause) I can accept it. I can’t tell you how it feel. I respect the Ku Klux Klan. I don’t agree with them. But I respect’m. Why? It’s because if I have the right to fight for what I believe in, why don’t they? That’s their God-given right. Now… The things that they do? Do I respect that? No. (pause) But you have, you have the right to want to keep your race or whatever pure, if that’s what you--you know, if that’s your plight in life. That’s fine!
(01:06:04)
You have that God-given right. I was on the debate team when I was in high school. And that was, and, you know, you have the pro and the con. And I, I was the one who had to defend… The racists. And I won. (pause) Because a right is a right. Doesn’t make a difference what color you are. And that’s one of the points that I brought out in, you know, during the debate. A, a right is a right. If this person has a right, or if I have a right, why don’t they? Aren’t we--if we tryin’ to stop them from bein’ who they are, aren’t we just as worse as they are? Because now we’re tryin’ to tell them that they can’t be who they are. So. Is, is that right? (pause) Now, my thing is you ain’t got to walk around in your fancy little masks. ‘Cause what are you tryin’ to cover up? That’s where, that’s where I start to have a problem with it. I, I could care less what your plight is in life or what you think you, the way you should live or your family should live. I could care less. That’s your God given right. God gives us free will to use it as we please. Now, some people use it for good, some people use it for bad. Once again, that’s life. Everything comes back to that. Because life is gonna be exactly what it is: Life. You have to figure out where you’re gonna fit in in life. As the individual. (pause) And that’s what it’s about. Know what I mean? (pause) I mean I think you’re doin’ a good thing here, tryin’ to, you know, maybe, I, I mean, I, uh, I appreciate what you’re doin’. Uh, uh I don’t know to what level are you trying to take this to, or whatever? Uh, he was tellin’ me something about, uh, ya’ll might do a play or something like that, or, some kind of a…. You know, just to give people an idea of uh, what it, what it feels like to be, um… In this type of situation, you know? I would love to do a one-man show. I don’t think they ready for it though. I don’t think they--(laughs) I don’t think, I don’t think society is ready for me. I, I really don’t. I don’t. And the reason why I say that is because: you can’t have a voice.
(01:09:00)
If you look at history, those who had a voice that was trying to make a change? Look what happened to them. They got assassinated. John F. Kennedy. His brother Robert. Malcolm X. Martin Luther King. Medgar Evers. You, you gotta silence the voice. Especially if the voice is goin’ against the powers that be. If I, if I know that you’re the biggest drug dealer in the world--if I, if I know it. And you’re makin’ all of this money, billions of dollars, and I, and I know it and I have proof and I start to expose it? You can’t have that. ‘Cause now I’m messin’ with ya way of life. (pause) And you can’t have that. So now you have to silence the voice. And how do you silence the voice? You get rid of it. So you either… Disparage my reputation. (pause) Or you kill me. Do I think Bill Cosby is guilty? Or, no, I should say do I think he did it? Yeah! (pause) I think he did it. That’s still not gonna take away from this man’s legacy. What he did. I mean, ‘cause if you look at history… Slavery was a bad thing. But they still got monuments of Jefferson up, right? They got statues of him. Grant. (pause) They did bad things. But, they’re still celebrated. Can’t, they’re not gonna take away their accolades. So why take away his? Know what I mean? I mean this man… Between him and his wife, they donated 50 million dollars to HBUs and only one gave the money back. The other ones refused to give the money back. But you’re gonna, you’re gonna take back the honorary degree that you gave the man. So what message are you sendin’ out? It’s okay to take a rapist’s money, but we’re not gonna accept the rapist? But we’re gonna accept his money. (pause) What sense does that make? (pause) So… It’s all, it’s all about legacy. I’m, I’m, I, I would love, like I said, I would love to do a one man show.
(01:12:04)
‘Cause I honestly think that people would get … They would get behind what I’m sayin’. Like, you got people out there like Steve Harvey. You’re in it for the money, man, you’re not---’cause, it’s, it’s called “self healing”. The only person that can heal oneself is self. And how do you, how do you heal yourself? You start to live by a philosophy. Some people turn to the Bible. Some people adapt to a they just don’t care attitude. And that’s what they live by. But if--say if I had a woman that I could go home and I could slap every day and she’d do whatever I say. And it works for me. I can’t tell you to go home and slap your wife. ‘Cause you might go home and slap your wife and it might not work for you. So how am I gonna put that in a book and say “this is how you should live your life”? I can’t tell you how to live your life. One thing I can do is tell a person to do what you feel is best for you. Because at the end of the day, that’s what it all comes down to--you doing what you feel is best for you. (pause) At the time when they gave me away, they felt that that was the best thing for them. I guess after them 6 months, I don’t know who it was, who said “let’s go get him” or whatever, all I know is that they came back and they got me. They did what they felt was best at that time. You know? Not sayin’ that you would ever do it, but you might say “you know what, pickin’ up a gun and blowin’ somebody’s brains out at the time might be the best thing for you.” Because this person has just really got on your nerves or this person really needs to go. (pause) So at that moment, you’re feeling that that’s the best thing for you to do. Is to get rid of that person. But then, most rational people sit down and think “you know what? That’s not the best thing to do.” Got some people who carry it out. I mean, I don’t know about you but I sit here and I tell you flat out, yeah, I’ve thought about killin’ a lot of people. Not sayin’ that I would ever do it. But I have thought about, I, I would kill that person.Just for what, you know, because of what they did. You know? Like, I couldn’t have been a police officer that came in on that man molestin’ that little girl, Megan. Because at the time, I was livin’ in Trenton, New Jersey. And we had friends who lived in Hamilton. And we used to take, at the time, my stepdaughter. She used to play with a girl who lived 3 houses down from Megan. That could have easily been my daughter. And if that would have been my daughter? There wouldn’t have been a law enforcement or whoever, wouldn’t have--could have said to me--’cause I would have killed him. I am bein’ h--as I’m lookin’ you in your eyes, and you can look at me and tell that I am not playin’.
(01:15:27)
I would have killed him. If somebody did that to my child. Because I know what it feels like. I mean. I might have been molested by a woman, but I still know what it feels like. To have your virtue taken away and you don’t understand why. It’s like you have no control over it or can stop it. It’s like this… Force is just taking it from you. So I could not have been that police officer that walked in and caught that man with that little girl. ‘Cause I would have pulled out my gun, and I would have blown his brains out. (pause) And I’m j-I’m being so honest with you right now. I, I feel that in my heart. And I know the Bible say you have to be forgiving, but I’m gonna have to pray on that one, ask God to forgive me. ‘Cause I would have blew that man’s brains out. Bottom line. Crazy, man. I don’t know man. (sigh) I could talk to you for hours, man.
Charles, can you tell me, um, about, um… If you can give me a period of time between getting married, having kids, to the present moment? Oh, yeah.
(inaudible) Well, I met my, uh, actually I met my ex-wife’s sister first. We went, we were in Central High School together. And uh, they had just moved from uh, Philadelphia. And they were livin’ around the corner from where I, where we were livin’ at the time. And uh… We got to takin’ and you know, we found out that, you know. We believed in the same religion. So. I was pretty popular in school. And so I told, I told everybody that that was my little sister. You know. I said, so I was like “if anybody bother her they gonna, they gonna have to bother me.” So they, like literally believed that this girl was my little sister.And we was cool, you know, we became cool ever since. And uh. So she kept tellin’ me about her sister.
(01:18:00)
You know, “oh yeah, my sister. Her name is Helena but you know we call her ‘Peaches’ and,” you know, ‘cause the mother had 4 daughters. So she named them “Apple”, “Peaches”, “Pumpkin”, and “Pie.” And uh… So. One day we was comin’, you know, home from school. I was walkin’ her home from school and she was like, “oh, there goes my sister right there!” And she was like “Leena!” And she ran over there and she was like “Remember the guy I was tellin’ you about, Charles? This is him,” And she was like “Ugh, you ugly! I would never go out with him!” That’s, I didn’t say nothin’! I said “okay” and walked away. So we would all just hang out from that point on. And I had a friend named Robert Johnson who liked Lillian. So. You know he, finally got up enough nerve--I mean, and they’re still married to this day. And um. He finally got up enough nerve, and, you know, to ask her. Out. And she didn’t want to go out, you know, with him, by herself. So. He asked me, it was like the scene from Goodfellas. He asked me, you know, would I go, he was like “Yo, just hang out with us” and I was like “cool!” Then when I saw who I was gonna be hangin’ around, I was like ‘nah, man’. I said “I can’t stand that girl!” I said “she’s stuck up!” I said “that girl is so tight, if you put a lump of coal up her butt in two weeks she’ll have a diamond! That’s how tight she is! She thinks she, she thinks she all that!” So we started hangin’ out. So I had another friend named Riley White. That's who she liked. I mean, but they… He hung around the Projects, but he didn’t live in the Projects ‘cause his family had a little money.Um. I don’t, you probably don’t remember this, but some years back, like in the 70s? There was a really bad explosions at one of the PSE&G? Refineries? And uh. 4 of the brothers, they were the White Brothers. 4 of the brothers died in that explosion. So they family got millions. You know. From the lawsuits. Got millions. So his family was, you know kind of prominent. You know. Had money. So. She wanted to be in that genre. Because she felt Oh yeah, that would open up doors for her and, you know. This kid, I mean, you know. (sigh) When Riley used to sit--I mean, “Oh yeah, I’m popular at my school and I’m the man” and I used to sit there (laughs) And I used to laugh ‘cause I’m like dude! You know that's not true! (laughing) So they started talkin’ to each other, know what I mean? So I was like “okay, now I don’t have to hang around.” You know? So I stop hangin’ around. And uh. It was um…
(01:21:01)
An, another girl that um. I met. I would marry this woman today. If she ever called me and was like “let’s do it”. Her name was Tamine Hudgedson. I’m still in love with that woman. I remember the f--I was 10 and she was 5 when we met. And I remember exactly what she was wearin’ when I met her. And me and her was talkin’ one day and I, and I told her that and sh was like “you know what, I still got that picture” she was like “but wow, really? You, you remember that?” I said “when you fall in love with somebody you never forget” and she was like “that is so sweet.” So that’s who I was tryin’ to get with. You know, but she, you know, she liked somebody else. And I was like “man, I’m always a dollar short and a day late.” You know? So one day, Helena decided that she was gonna go up to Riley’s school to see him. And she’s askin’ people “Um, do you know Riley?” And they were like “Riley who? We don’t know no Riley.” She was like “Riley White”, (inaudible) “No, I don’t know him.” So then she was like “Well, you know, let’s go to Central and see what Charles is doin’.” She was hangin’ out with her best friend, Juanita. And she was like, uh, “well let’s go see, you know, what, see if we can hook up with Charles.” So they came over to Central. And uh. They asked one dude, they was like “Do you know Charles?” He was like “Charles? You mean Bear?” ‘Cause that’s what they used to call me back in the day because I made, I was much bigger and my hair, like, came down to my shoulders, so they, you know, everybody used to call me Big Bear. So. Or BB. They was like, they was like “yeah, you talkin’ about Bear?” And she was like “Bear? I don’t, I don’t--” She was like, they was like “he real funny? He always makin’ jokes?” They was like “Yeah” “okay, crazy Charles! Yeah, yeah, yeah.” So, I mean, it was like a hot line goin’ through the building, people was looking for me. So they finally found me. You know. And they was like “yo, there’s two fine chicks downstairs lookin’ for you,” I’m like “Yeah right.” They’re like “no, for real, man. Yo, they fine! Both of’em.” I go downstairs, it’s her and Juanita. So me and her, we, she was like “Well, let’s go get somethin’ to eat.” There’s, of course they playin’ hooky from school so I’m like you know what, okay, I’ll, I’ll leave school and we went downtown and got some McDonalds or whatever and my brothers, you know, they… Did certain things that they weren’t supposed to be doin’. So I kept my, we’re just gonna say that the (inaudible) anyway, (laughs) I always had wads of it. Because they never wanted me to be out there doin’ that. So they was like “look. You’re gonna stay in school. You’re gonna do this baseball thing. Know what I mean? And we’re gonna make sure you’re alright.”
(01:24:06)
So they did. They would give me money. So we went down there and, you know, bought McDonalds and you know, you could supersize it back then. You know, so I let them supersize and they were like “oh, he’s a baller.” ‘Cause I got you extra cheese? Nah. (laughs) So, you know, we, so now we started to hang out. So… One summer. My um. I was in my uh… I was in my uh, I was in my 11th grade year. Had just got my driver’s license. And… You know they come out with the, the new, the new cars. You know. A year before. And my uncle had just bought a brand new… Link--A, a Cadillac Sudan-derville. You know, with the slope back? He had just bought one of those. And I used to go ver there and I used to wash the car for him and, you know. He’d let me drive it around the block. So my 17th birthday, my aunt calls me over to the house and she said “I, I got,” she said “I got your birthday present, come get it.” Never really celebrated birthdays, ‘cause you know with my mom’s religion, we didn’t do birthdays, all of that stuff. And um. So I go over there, ‘cause you know my mom wasn’t givin’ me no birthdays or anything like that, so my aunt--I go over there. And she hands me a little box. She said “It’s for you.” I open it up, and it’s the key. To the Cadillac. I said “Oh, you gonna let me drive it for the day for my birthday?” She said “no look, look--” she said “look at the bottom.” So I looked at the bottom and I open it up--it’s the Bill of Sale. She signed it over to me. So I’m like 17 with a brand new Cadillac Sundanderville. At 17. (laughs) So. Me, bein’ me. You know. Fist person I go to pick up? Is my homeboy Rob. You know, we ain’t got cellphones back in those days. So I drove to his house. And uh. I was like “yo, man, you ain’t not gonna believe what I got parked outside, man!” And he was like “what?” Looked out his window and he was like “That ain’t yours!” And I showed him the Bill of Sale from the keys. He was like “Are you serious?” I was like “Yeah!” He said “I’m about to call Apple and see if she wanna hang out!” Know what I mean? So he called her and, you know, he was like “Yo, Charles got a car!” Know what I mean? “We about to come pick you up!” “Okay, I’ma tell my sister!” (car alarm locks in background) Go to pick them up, they come outside man, they see me, this kid sittin’ in this Cadillac (laughs).
(01:27:00)
And she flips! My ex-wife. She flips out. She was like “this is your car?” I said “yeah, my aunt gave it to me. For my birthday. Today’s my birthday.” (pause) So. And this was in January. So we hung out all--you know, just hangin’ out, I mean, didn’t kiss, touch, none of that. We just hangin’ out. You know? But then she would get mad--I mean, ‘cause come on, I’m 17 years old. I’m in 11th grade. And I’m sayin’ I’m on the baseball team, you know. I’m in the band. You know. ‘Cause I can play the drums. So I, I got 2 letters. You know. ‘Cause I’m doing 2 things in, in school. So I got, I got the band letter, and I got, you know, the letter for the, uh baseball. So I’m a 2 town letterman. You know. I’m, so at, even though I’m not even in the 12th grade yet, I'm the big man on campus. And I’m sayin’, cause who touchin’ me? I got 2 letters on my jacket and I’m drivin’ a Cadillac? Really? Come on now. (laughs) So you know, we hangin’ out, and then it’s a lot of other women. You know, a little young girls hangin’ around me. So I get invited to the prom. By a girl that was her rival. (pause) You know. Now mind you, we all live in a, in the same area. So… I’m in the 11th. She’s in the 9th. ‘Cause I’m 2 years older than her. So she’s in the 9th grade, but she goes to Arts High. She doesn’t even go to Central with us. She goes to Arts High. ‘Cause my ex-wife got a beautiful voice. Oh, that woman can sing. So a friend of hers… That went to Central, would see me with this other girl who invited me to the prom. So every time, you know, she would go home, she would like “yo, Charles is hangin’ out with Audrey.” And she was like “What?” So she would call me on the phone ‘cause you know, we ain’t have cell phones and all that stuff back in them days. So she would call me on my house phone. “Oh, so what’s this I hear you hangin’ out with Audrey?” I’m like “yeah? Going to the prom. And?” Know what I mean? “Oh. So I thought me and you was hangin’ out.” We hangin’ out, but that’s what we doin’. Know what I mean? We’re not--I never said that you was my girlfriend or anything like that. We hangin’ out. Whatchu talkin’ about? “Okay. Aahh..” She hung up the phone, mad. Click! So I get to school the next day. Her sister was like “yo…. My sister cried all night long” and I’m like “for what?” Said “She don’t even like me!”
(01:30:00)
“Well apparently, she does. She is so hurt that you are goin’ to the prom with Audrey.” Come on man, I’m in the 11th grade, this woman is in the 12th, she about to graduate and go to college. You know, and, girls didn’t look like little girls, like, back then, so only a few were developed. You know what I mean? It’s like you got a slew of’m now. It’s like every time you turn around, these little curs--these little kids is all stacked up with the ping and the pow! But see back then, maybe, maybe 5 girl in the whole schools had the ping and pow. Some of them had ping but no pow? (laughs) Vice a versa. But Audrey had the ping and the pow. So I was goin’ to the prom with her. And I did. We went out to the prom. But nothin’ happened. Because for some crazy reason, I just kept thinkin’ about her. (pause) So. We got out of school. (pause) And… We were, we were goin’ to Coney Island. So you know, we’re tryin’ to read the map. (laughs) Tryin’ to go to Coney Island. (laughing) Ain’t never drove! In New York. We don’t know where we goin’! We never--we never made it. We never made it to Coney Island. ‘Cause we got lost. It was like 5 cars. That was tryin’ to go. But by the time it was all said and done, only 2 cars were together. It was like---(laughing) me, and this other kid I used to hang out with, Dario Martin. We were, like, me and him, we was like, we stuck together. We was like “look, if, if, if somebody get in front of me, I let you get in, I let you, I’ll drive slow so you cut over to the next lane, you gonna get in front of me cause we gonna stay together” ‘cause we done lost 3 cars! We don’t know where we goin’. I mean, we were pullin’ over, we was askin’ people “How do you get back to the Turnpike?” And they was like “The Turnpike?” (laughing) We wound up in Manhattan! We, we never made it to Coney Island. There’s like, “we tryin’, we tryin’ to get to, we tryin’ to get to Coney Island!” They was like “Dude, you’re in Manhattan! You’re (laughing) no where near Coney Island!” So we finally, we finally get back to Jersey. And, you know, we all meet up. And we’re all… can’t remember what restaurant we were at. (pause) Some diner, like and we kinda like took up like maybe half the diner, ‘cause it was just that many people--it was 5 cars. So we was like “Well, we gonna try to, we gonna try to make it back to um…. Coney Island!” And they was like “Nah, man! We should just go to Great Adventures! It’s like right down!” (laughing) You know, you just get on the turnpike and ride down to exit 6, you get off at exit 6 and it’s right there. Know what I mean?
(01:33:13)
We ain’t got to worry about getting lost. So okay. So the next day we, same 5 cars, same people, go down to Six Flags. Everybody’s pairin’ up. You know. But I, I pair up with Audrey, I mean, we have, we went to the prom together, so we pair up. So all that day, she just kept tryin’ta get by to where I was. My ex-wife. So… We went to the little novelty store. And they had a bunch of stuff. You know, man, trick handcuffs and all that stuff. So she buys a pair of handcuffs. (pause) We comin’ out the store, I got some t-shirts, a hat, some other crazy stuff. And she puts the handcuff around my wrist and she puts the other one on hers. And now we’re handcuffed together, and she takes the key and she puts it, you know, in her bra. And she’s like “if you want the key, you gonna have to go get it.” And I’m like “I’m not stickin’ my hand down your, you know, your blouse.” ‘Cause I mean, I’m not that k--I’m not that type of dude. You wanna be handcuffed to me? Fine. So Audrey was like “Well what’s goin’ on?” I was like “Look, she put these handcuffs on me and she put the key in her bra. She want me to--” “Oh, you playin’ games, I ain’t got time to play games--” I’m like, come on. You’re like, ‘bout to go to college. She’s like, what are--I’m in the 11th grade! I’m havin’ fun. (laughs) So she storms off, and she just said, she was like “I’m just lettin’ all ya’ll girls know that he off the lot, he off the market. He’s my boyfriend now.” And that’s how we got together. She just told everybody that we were--she was like “he’s my boyfriend now so ya’ll just back off!” And that’s how we… That’s how we got together. And uh, like I said, we were doin’ grown things. And um… I got her pregnant. And it probably happened… Had to happen maybe like the end of the summer? Maybe the beginning? Of the, of my, of my 12th grade school year? Probably happened at like at the end of the summer. Just before we went back to school. (sigh) And ah… So uh. Back in those days, they used to take trips, they used to--for health. They used to take, uh, classrooms down to Planned Parenthood.
(01:36:03)
And uh. She went to Planned Parenthood, you know, just on a field trip. And uh. You know. They, they was givin’ the boys the little cough test? You know, they would hold your, your, your testicle and like “turn your head and cough”? So they was givin’ the boys those--I mean, I wasn’t there, but. You know, she was tellin’ me what was going on. And uh. So they did that and then she, you know, they gave all of the girls pregnancy tests. And she told her sister. And her sister comes to me and she was like “Ooo, big brother, I got somethin’ to tell you”. And I’m like “What?” I’m like “What? What’s the matter?” ‘Cause you know, just a blank look she had on her face. And she said… “My sister is pregnant.” And I was like “wooooow. Are you serious?” She was like “I wouldn’t play with somethin’ like that. ”You know, like I said, in here we don’t believe in abortion, so. I’m like “man, what are we gonna tell us,” you know, like, “what are we gonna tell… You know, our parents?” Or me, I went to, I mean, I went to my mom. I mean, I’m 18 years old, I mean, I’ma, I’m, by law I’m grown. So I go to my, uh, mom, and I tell my mom. I’m like “Uh…” I said “I got Helena pregnant”. She’s like “I know.” I said “How did you know?” I said “I just found out today.” She said “boy, you come home from school and you lay down and the first thing you do is go to sleep. And when you wake up, you eat everything in sight. And that’s not you. So I knew somethin’ was wrong. And… To come home, you on the phone with that girl from the time you get in this house to the time, it’s time for you to go bed, you’re talkin’ to this girl on the phone. Two, three times. Ya’ll hang up and call each other right back.” She was like “I, I knew somethin’ was up, I was just waitin’ for you to be a man, to come to me and talk to me about it.” I said, “Well, like I said, I just found out today.” And she said “Okay, so what are you gonna do?” I said “I don’t know.” I said “I guess I’m about to be a… A father.” You know? I mean of course she asked the inevitable question. “Are you sure it’s yours? (pause) Okay, well. We can find out, you know, when the baby here.” You know? So she goes home and she tells her mom and her stepdad that she’s pregnant. So the mother jumps on her. (pause) You know? And then they go down to the police station and they put a… They put a rape charge on me because I was 18 and she was 16.
(01:39:06)
They tried to say I raped her. And… So the police came. Knocked on my door. And they was like, uh. “Mr. Wallace?” And I was like “yeah?” They said “we have a warrant for your arrest.” They was like “Can you please turn around and put your hands behind your back?” So my mother--I mean, my mom bein’ my mom, moved me behind her like this and she was like “What are you, what, what, what, what’s goin’ on? Why you here to get my son?” “Well, we have a warrant for his arrest, ma’am.” You know my mother opened it up, she read it. And she was like “okay, so where you takin’ him?” He was like “We goin’ to Green Street.” You know, he said “more than likely that’s where he’ll spend the night and go he’ll go to court in the mornin’.” And uh, so my mother told me “Don’t say nothin’.” She said, she said “So are you reading him his rights?” So they, they, as they put the handcuffs on me, you know, they read me my rights. You know, they, they, they gave me my Miranda. You know. Asked me, got the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law. You have a right to an attorney. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law. Do you understand these things that I have just said?” And I was like “Yes,” but my mother like “Don’t say nothin’.” My mother said “he, I’ma tell--I’m tellin’ you now. He’s waivin’ his rights to talk. So don’t ask my son no questions.” And she said “If they try to ask you any questions, you let me know.” So when I got down there, you know, the detectives, you know, ‘cause they have plainclothes police officers to come get me--I don’t know why the detectives just didn’t come. But I guess they were in my area or whatever so they were the ones that came to get me. And uh. The plainclothes, they was gettin’ ready to take me in and he was like, “He already waived his right to talk to he’s lawyerin’ up.” And um. So my mother didn’t even get a chance to get me a lawyer. We just went to court the next mornin’. And we’re standin’ in, you know, in front of the judge. And you know, the mother’s standin’ there and she was like “Oh, yeah, my daughter’s only 16 years old and this man right here is 18--” and that judge said “wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.” He said “So you’re tellin’ me that he’s 18 and your daughter is 16? And you’re, you’ve ot him down here for a rape charge?” “Oh, my daughter’s pregnant.” So she said, “Well, let me speak to your daughter.” And she was like “Uh... “ Cause her last name was Hunley. So she said “Ms. Hunley. Did Mr. Wallace, at any given point in time, force hisself on you?” And she as like “No, he’s my boyfriend.”
(01:42:00)
(pause) So… The judge looked at the mother, was like “Look. Your daughter's 16 years old, this man is 18 years old. They're both still teenagers. And uh,” they said we fell under the uh, Romeo and Juliet law. That, you know. Now if I was like 21, then there would have been a problem, even, you know. ‘Cause she’s 16 and you know, I’m 21. Or if I was even 20. It would have been a problem. You know. But, but we’re both teenagers. So only had her by 2 years. So. The judge was like “no, there’s, there’s no rape here. Your daughter’s sittin’ here tellin’ you that this is her boyfriend and you can’t stop your daughter from havin’ a boyfriend. So, right there in the courtroom, the mother was like “Well. I tell you what. If he’s not gonna go to jail, then I want her out of my house.” And my mom looked at me and she was like “Well… You know my religious belief. She can come. But you gotta marry her. She--ya, cannot shack up with no, no young girl in my house.” So. The judge said “you, will you be willin’ to marry her?” And I said “yeah.” So they asked the mother “Will you sign for her to get married?’ She was like “Yeah.” So we left there. We went down to the uh, Planned Parenthood. We got the blood tests. We had to wait.. I think it was like 2 weeks, 3 weeks for the results to come back. We both came back disease free. And uh. We went to the Justice of the Peace. And we got married at City Hall. And then we threw like the h--like, reception. (laughs) We actually shut down like a whole city block when we got married. ‘Cause we had a lot of friends! You know? I mean it was, we, we, we uh… We had it at the neighborhood house. You know, and I mean, she had told her family and everything that she was getting married. So when she told me her family was comin’ from Philly, I’m thinkin’ like maybe a few cousins and a aunt or two or maybe… Yo. These people pulled up in a procession. It was like car after car after car after car. It’s like we had, like, literally there was no where for nobody to park. You know? And uh. It was like… It was in October because we got married on ah, Yom Kippour. That’s the only reason I can remember our wedding anniversary, is ‘cause it was October the 2nd and that’s a Jewish holiday, Yom Kippour.
[ Annotation 8 ]
(01:45:03)
And uh. So it wasn’t really cold cold outside yet? You know, it was jacket weather. So… It was so, it was so many people, you know, that it was, they filled the little neighborhood house. So we, they had another little area in the back. You know, so a friend of mine, he extended his speakers and he brought the speakers so it was like we was all in the middle and all the way in the back room--it was just that many people. And then friends and everybody comin’ and yo, it was bringin’ like, people was bringin’ food and liquor and man, ti was just crazy man, I just, I never realized I knew that many people. You know? I mean, females that liked me, they was there. They was cryin’ like “oh my God, I can’t believe you’re married now!” (laughs) Yeah, well, I am. And um. So we just got married too young so. You know that was the, that was the, goodbye to my baseball career. And um… The first job I ever had was at Jack’s Clothing Store. You know, my mother said “you need a job. You’re fresh out of high school. You’re not going to college. You need a job! You got to go do something.” So. Ah. I was on Ferry Street, on the bus. Tryin’ to figure out like where am I--I don’t know where to go for no application for no job. I’m 19--I’m 18 years old. What do I know about lookin’ for a job? You know, I’m just comin’ off the corners hangin’ out with my friends. And I, I saw it. I saw Help Wanted. So I pulled the buzzer, I get off, and I walk back a block. And I go into Jack’s. And um. I, I, I tell the man, I said, “Look,” I said, uh, “I just got married.” I said uh. “I need a job. And I ain’t got no experience.” And he said “okay!” So I worked, I worked for Jack’s like for 2 years. And I was makin’ 120 bucks a week. (laughs) And that was after taxes! And out of that 120 bucks, I gave my mom 40, you know because we were stayin’ there. And the rest I, I used to get her the stuff that she needed ‘cause she was still, she still had 2 years of high school to go. ‘Cause she was in the 11th grade when we got married. So she still had 2 years of high school to go. So she’s a married woman in high school. And so one day, I’m walkin’ home from work, ‘cause I didn’t, I didn’t live too far. And ah, happen to walk past this mom and pop’s store. And I see this old man, you know, cleanin’ up.
(01:48:00)
And I, I tapped on the door and he was like “Closed! Closed!” And I’m like “nah, I’m tappin’ on the door!” And he comes over there and he opens the door. I said “I see you cleanin’ up, you know, you cleanin’ up the store.” I said, uh, I said “For 50 dollars a week,” I said “‘Cause I work right there at Jack’s and I get off, you know, at set time and I gotta come past this way anyway.” I said “I’ll, I’ll clean, you know, I’ll sweep and mop your floors and I’ll stock your shelves. For 50 bucks a week.” And he said “Yeah, that would be great!” He said “You can start tomorrow.” I said “Okay.” And so I did that. So. Out of 170 bucks, I paid rent. (laughs) Got my ex-wife everything she needed for school. And uh. Then uh. A friend of mine got a, got a…. (pause) This jUice Factory around the corner. I don't know if you remember the summer lunches that they used to have back in the day? Well. It used to be like, they used to have’m in school too sometimes, like the little cups of juice? Little, little, they were about that big, that round? Cups of juice? Well, they was right down there on uh… (pause) Oh man… What was the name of that street? Man… (pause) Man, I can’t even remember the name of the street. But it, they owned that whole warehouse that was right there on uh, that street. And Jones Dairy Farm, that’s the people that make the sausage? They had, their space in that building. And I was goin’ to the juice factory. You know. To get a job, because you know my, uh, my brothers worked there. Uh, a few friends from the neighborhood worked there. So my brother was like “They’re always hiring.” So I came down And I was goin’ in, but I went to the wrong buildin’. I went into Jones D--I went to where Jone’s Dairy Farm was. And I asked him, I said “Are ya’ll,” I said, I said “Is this where you come to fill out the application for the job?” And they told me “Yeah.” I mean I’m thinkin’ that I’m fillin’ it out for the juice factory. So I fill out the application, the man goes over my application. ‘Cause at the time, I’m still workin’ at um… Jack’s and for the old gentleman. And um. He said “Well, when can you start?” ‘Cause you know, back then when you went to a interview, you had to be dressed nice. So I had on, you know, a button down with a tie on and, you know, I’m all dressed up. And I said “Well if you need me right now,” I said “I’ll roll up these sleeves, take off this tie, and I’ll go to work.” And he was like “you know what, I like that.” He said “But no, I’m not gonna have you do that.” Um.
(01:51:02)
He said, “because we get off at uh,” He said “we close at 12 o’clock.” I said “In the afternoon?” He was like “yeah, no, like--” I said “my brother, my brother done get off at like 4:30.” You know? But I said “okay.” I, was, I was like, maybe it’s a different position or you know, whatever. So I went home and my brother calls me and he says “Well, did you go for the job?” And I said “Yeah, I got it.” And he was like “What?” He was like “I uh, asked my supervisor did a Charles Wallace come down here and he told me no.” I said “Yeah!” I said “I went down there…” I said “you know,” I said “I walked up the steps and I went to the”--I said, “The office was to the right!” And he was like “nah, man, you was supposed to go to the left!” I said “Well,” I said “Well I went to the right and I filled out the application and I got the job.” He was like, and you know, he was like “At the sausage place?” And I was like “Yeah, that’s where I got the job at.” And he was like “Wow!” He was like “you, man, hir--you know, everybody been tryin’ to get into that job! And you just walked in and got it like that?” I said “Yeah!” Know what I mean? And I worked there for 15 years. Yup. And the only reason why I left the job was because they moved back to Wisconsin. They, ‘cause they used to--they used to have the sales people go out. To uh. You know. Get, like, A&P, Foodtown.. To buy they product. And so they shut down the sales department and they uh, they shut down, uh… They shut down, uh. The warehouse. And um. But it did, man, I was a workaholic. I was a ba--I’m, ah, my ex-wife say “don’t say you were a bad husband”, she said, because she said “you was great at that.” It’s jus that I didn’t,I didn’t now better. So my whole thing was, I had to take care of my family. I had to support my family. I mean, I saw my dad get up at 4 o’clock in the morning. Every day. My dad got up at 4 o’clock in the morning. Was out by 5:30. I don’t know how long it took him to get to the post office, to get his mail. But that man drove that mail truck and he delivered that mail. Every day. Rain, hail, sleet or snow that man went to work every day. I can’t even remember a day I ever seen my father sit home and say “Oh, I’m sick.” Ever! So. I… I, I just adapted that mentality. And um. So, on Mondays we started at 4:30. And we got off at 1. Well, we were supposed to get off at one. So we, so… The supervisor was like “look, we work through. We don’t take no break.” I mean, well, they would, they would give us two 15 minutes. You know? But we won’t take no lunch lunch. Because you know, they you had to clock out and then clock back in. So since we got a hour for lunch. We would just work ‘til 12 and then they would sign us out. You know. For 1. And that way we g--we got to leave at 12. And we would still get out 8 hours. And we was like “Okay, cool!” So I mean, I was gettin’ off at like 12 in the afternoon. You know, I got my whole day like, to just do whatever I want to do! So. I did, I went and found me another job. (laughs) I mean, I’m figurin’, man, I’m, I’m off! Know what I’m sayin’? I might as well just go ahead and just get me another job. And I did. I went to, uh… Aramark Distribution. Because that’s where my uh, my sister-in-law was workin’. And she told me about them hirin’. And I, so I went down there. And so I would… I would get up in the mornin’. And I would take my ex-wife and my daughter to my mom’s house. And then my mother would take them, you know--my mother would, would watch my daughter. And my mom would take, you know, my ex-wife to school. And then she would pick her up from school. And then, you know, I would, when I get off, when I got off… I would go pick them up, drive them home, just enough time for me to jump in the shower, real quick, change my clothes, and go to my second job.
(01:55:45)
END OF SECOND FOLDER
____________________________________________________________________________
THIRD FOLDER, 02/21/2020
FIRST RECORDING
(00:00:00)
Last time we were together, we were talking about, uh, your job, uh, in Newark on the line. Uh, and uh, do you remember, where did we finish? My ex-wife.
Your ex-wife. Yeah, we were “cantalkin’ about that train wreck. (pause) Um. We, we were, uh, we finished up on, uh, how we got together. How we, how she couldn’t stand me at first. ‘Cause I was--I took another girl to the prom. (laughs) So that kind of didn’t go over well with her, (sniff) I mean, but then you know like I said, we got together but we were just too young to be married. You know, I was 18, she was 16. You know. Pregnant. We had our first child, I mean, and, I was--I had to be this responsible adult that I, I, and I never done anything like that. I mean, I went to literally from hangin’ on the corner, just ready to go to college, talkin’ about my dreams. You know, about bein’ a baseball player, and the next thing you know, I’m gettin’ up at 3 o’clock in the morning because a baby cryin’. So it was an adjustment. You know? But um. Having a father in my life, even, even though he died when I was 13? But just having that factor in my life? I kinda knew what to do? Kinda, maybe knew what to do? I know I had to… I knew that they were my responsibility. I knew at least that much. But I didn’t know all of the other stuff that went with being married and that’s why my marriage broke up. You know. My job was to go out and make the money, come home, pay my rent, put food in your mouth, clothes on your back. As a man, I thought that that was it. But I didn’t know that you had to spend time. You had to be there with your wife. You had to be there, you know, with your child. You8 know I, I didn’t know anything about… Women goin’ through postpartum depression when they have a child. You know. Um. Two years after that, her mother died. Shortly after we had our second child. So now this girl is 18 years old, two kids, a senior in high school is your wife. So that was just a lot for her… You know, she was carryin’ just as much of a load as I was. But I didn’t see it from… that aspect. You know? I didn’t, I, I didn't take into consideration all what she was losin’ at home/. ‘Cause she couldn’t go hang out with her friends. You know, when they tellin’ her, “oh, we’re goin’ to a party!” And bah bah bah bah and they gettin’ all dressed up and, “Ah, I can’t do that. I can’t go because you’re a married woman.” You got a, you got a responsibility.You got a husband and two kids. You know? So I didn’t… I don’t, I don’t wanna say I was selfish ‘cause I wasn’t selfish. But I was… I don’t know what word I want to use.
(00:03:06)
Complacent. Maybe that’s the, a good word to use? I was complacent. Because. I felt that I was doin’ what I was supposed to do. SO I guess that’s where my complacency came from. And I gave nothing more. I was gonna give just what I was givin’. I wasn’t givin’ nothin’ else I went to work, Monday through Friday, and on the weekend you didn’t bother me. I’ma relax on Saturday, watch football. On Sunday you didn’t bother me. Monday, I’ll start it all over again.But you’re, you’re a husband and a father 24 hours a day. So you don’t get a time off. ‘Cause she never got a time off. And I didn’t, I didn’t look at that. I never realized until after we were divorced. And I think back of a conversation that my father and I had when I was a kid. If I had to pay my ex-wife for every job that she did in my house, then I wouldn’t be able to afford her. Because she was a babysitter, she was the house--she was the housekeeper. She was the bookkeeper. She went to the market to buy the stuff. She was the cook. So she was all of these facets and I didn’t even realize that. Even when we went on vacation, this woman was workin’. Because it was her responsibility to make sure the kids got up and dressed, made sure they eat, make sure all of our clothes are laid out. So even when she’s supposed to be having fun, she’s working. And I never realized that until after… We got divorced. And that’s why to this day we are very good friends and I have the up most respect for that woman. Because I did! I, I took her--I took her youth. I did. I took it away from her. And I can’t give it back. So the least I can do is be there for you in any aspect you might need now within the boundaries of, you know, us not havin’ to go any further than--(laughs) you know what I mean, I’m just bein’ honest about that! I mean, but, I mean I’m just sayin’ that I tried. I try to be there for her. In ways I never was there for her when we were married. I owe her that. Because I did, I, I took a lot from her. ‘Cause she was a child. I dunno, man, am I makin’ myself sound like a pedofile? I’m--(laughs) He like, yeah! He wanna say yeah! (laughing) But you know, I mean, I don’t, I don’t feel like I was a pedophile, but I do feel that, as the older individual? I should have, I should have been more conscious or more aware. I mean, even though I was only 2 years older than her, but I was still 2 years older than her. And I could have made um, maybe a better conscious decision on the things that we did leading up to her getting pregnant.
[ Annotation 9 ]
(00:06:03)
‘Cause I could have been like “nah, let’s wait a little while.” You know? “You’re too young.” You know? I’m a senior in high school, I’m about to go off to college. You know what I mean? “You a sophomore, you know, about to become a junior.” You know, ‘cause when she started her junior year, she was a married woman. You know? So you had two years of high school to go. You know? And, and then on top of that, you’re pregnant. So not only are you dealin’ with carryin’ this child, gettin’ up in the mornin’--I mean, ‘cause you already tired ‘cause you carryin’ this child. But you had to still get up in the mornin’, you still had to go to school, all that walkin’ around. Maintainin’ your grades--girl graduated with a 4.0! She was very smart. That’s another thing I--oh man, I love tellin’ people about how smart this girl is. You know? Graduated with a 4.0. I mean, you was like right there with your work. But at the same time you was doin’ everything that a married woman was supposed to be doing. So I feel I dropped the ball. I could have been a bette husband. You know. And then after we broke up--because I wasn’t there--you know I, I have to take responsibility for… The part I played in us breakin’ up. Now she may have been the one with the infidelity, but as a, as the person that was there? I have to take the responsibility and say “okay, what did you do to push her there?” Even though I was a hard worker, never hit her… I remember when my, my son was 16 years old ‘caus--wasn’t the best father neither. You know, ain’t gonna sit here and never tell nobody I would win the father of the year. Because my whole thing-even with that after we broke up--look, I paid my child support, what more do you want from me? (pause) No! And that’s why you not with mom! ‘Cause you didn’t give your time! At 16 years old, me and my son, he, he was callin’ me, I mean, he was upset and I could understand. You know, and he was tryin’ to talk to me all tough, like, you know. But what boy told me and wow, broke me down, I started cryin’ man. He was like “I would give you back every dime you gave for child support if I could get just one hour of your time.” (pause) Wow… One hour He didn’t ask for a day, a year. He said if I could just have one hour of your complete time, I’d give it all back. I mean, but at 16… You know, I got better, I mean, but by that time it’s too late ‘cause in two years he’s grown. Whatchu gonna tell a grown man?
(00:09:00)
You know? So I could have been a better… father. And that’s why I love my grandkids the way that I do and I try to be there for my grandkids as much as I do. ‘Cause then my grandkids--if I can afford it, you gon’ have it. You know? I’ll give them my last dollar, you know. If they wanna come see Grandpa, if they want me to come see them, you know. I got three that lives in, uh, Virginia, but if they call me, “Grandpa! We wanna see you!” Grandpa on the way. I’m gon’ see my grandkids. I don’t care. I could be in the shelter, I could be wherever. You’d have to kick me out ‘cause I’m gon’ to see my grandkids. I, I owe them that. And I owe their parents that. Because I wasn’t there for them. But I can be there for my grandkids. You know, and that’s why I have the relationship with my grandkids. You know? I mean, it’s tough. It’s tough. You know, i didn’t have the… I mean as, as you know from us talkin’, I never really had the best life growin’ up. But I didn’t have the best adult life, neither. (laughs) I tell people, “Don’t ask me what happened between 27 and, and 42.” ‘Cause at 42 was like when I really just like, you know what, you can’t keep livin’ like this, you gotta change your lifestyle. You know, ‘cause I was livin’--I lived in Charlotte for like 10 years. And… (sigh) Whoo! The den of iniquity. I was… (laughs) I would wake up in people’s house and didn’t even know how I got there. Or I would pass--I would wake up in the mornin’ in my house, and 2, 3 women sprawled out in my bed and I go in the livin’ room and there’s 4 or 5 more, 8 people that I don’t even know sprawled out on my, my livin’ room! (laughs) Could have killed me, robbed me, I mean… But I was just… I was livin’ that life. No drugs though! Never took drugs. I was a drinker, but I never was a druggie. Never. And I’d hang out with people who took drugs, you know? It was just… I kept a full bar at my house. And they never started out at parties. You know, it was always “Ay, Charles, whatchu doin’?” “I’m just sittin’, I got music playin’, you can hear it in the background, havin’ me a few.” “Oh! Mind if I come over?” “Nah, come on, you bring my boy?” “Yeah!” You know what I mean? So then it started out like that--”You know, I got a couple of honeys I could call if that’s cool?” “Yeaaaaah! Call them up!” I was a bachelor! You know? (sigh) Next thing you know, I got 30, 40 people at my house, man. (laughs) Den of iniquity man. I did, I lived… I don’t wanna say at the base life? You know what I mean ‘cause was no animals or anything like that, I ain’t never gonna tell you I woke up with a sheep! (baas) Never that!
(00:12:01)
(laughs) Just keepin’ it real! (laughs) Got some people who’s into that type of thing. I worked at the hospital, craziest thing I ever seen--man came in with a gerbil up his butt. How you got a gerbil stuck in your butt is beyond me. I don’t even wanna know. But it happened. You gotta be--that’s, that’s a whole ‘nother level of freaky. When you--I mean I don’t think, but that’s another whole level of freakiness that I don’t even want to know about. But. I mean.. So literally, like, that whole 30 year? My 30s? Don’t ask me. Don’t ask me. Don’t ask me anything about my 30s, man. I don’t know. I really don’t. That’s life. It’s like somebody took spackle and just put it over my 30s. You know? ‘Cause by the time I was like, 31, 32, I’d already, like… ‘Cause in my early 20s, you know, my ex-wife and I, we broke up. So (inaudible) my mid-20s--’cause I met my youngest son’s mother when I was like 27… So… (pause) From 27… To like 30… We were together and then we broke up. So from like 31? To like, ‘cause I remember if it was just days from like 31 to 42… I was out there, man. And uh… I did. It was one of those days, man. Woke up. I was butt naked in some girl’s house. You know. First thing I did was check for my money--you know, I, I found my pants. My wallet was in my pants. I looked, my money was in my, you know, in my wallet. You know, I’m lookin’ around, lookin’ around. I find my keys. I don’t even ‘member where I met this woman, how I got to her house, what we did in between me bein’ there, wakin’ up that mornin’. And I went home--and I did, I called my mom and I was like “Oh my God.” I said “I don’t know.” I said “my life is just… Goin’ in the wrong direction, Mom.” I said “IF I had a gun right now I would eat a bullet.” And of course you know that no parent wanna hear their child talk like that. So she started prayin’. She prayed with me. And… She was like “Well, you know, you know what my religious belief is and you grew up in it. You always said you believe. Give it a chance. Really give it a chance.” You know? She said “If you’re gonna do it, really give it a chance.”
(00:15:01)
But I knew for me to do it, I would have to leave where I was. You know? So I went--I left from Charlotte, and I went down to Savannah. That was like jumpin’ out of the fryin’ pan into the fire. Because… The dude my sister was dating when I lived in Savannah before, me and him met at a job at the sugar refinery. We both worked at the sugar refinery. And we used to hang out. And we used to do some things. And... (pause) When we ran back into each other he was like “oh man, I’m a DJ and I need a, I need a strong back to help me out! Yo man, you’d fit right in!” And I did! And it’s like we clicked. And that was another 3 years of just me losin’ my mind. I was 42. Called my mom up. And I said “Mom I don’t know” and I said “I don’t know what’s goin’ on. I’m messin’ my life, it’s spiralin’ out of control”. And she said “I can tell you what’s goin’ on.” And I’m like “What?” And she’s like “You’re servin’ Satan.” I said “What?” She said “You’re servin’ Satan.” She said “If you’re not serving God, you’re serving Satan. You could be a good person, but if you’re not serving God… You’re serving the Devil.” And I said “Okay.” I listened to what she said. Prayed with me again. And I said it to myself again, I said “For me to… Get away from this whole craziness… I gotta leave.” So I left Savannah. Came back here and I got my life together, man. Turned my life up. I don’t, I don’t drink half as much as I used to--I mean, I wish I could tell you that I don’t drink anymore. But uh, I still do. But it’s just ot like I used to. I used to drink every day--I, every day. I’m surprised I still got a liver. I am so serious. I’m talkin’ about. 10 o’clock in the mornin’. I’m drinkin’. It’s 5 o’clock somewhere! You know, that was the mentality. And never missed work! Never missed work. Party all night, home, wake up, “Oh man, I gotta be there in 30 minutes!” 5 minute shower. (laughs) Throw on my uniform. (snaps) I’m out that door, man. But I never missed work. In all my drunkenness, I’ve never missed--never missed work. Had I ever been there hungover? Yeah! Good thing I wasn’t a surgeon. That might have been a problem. But I was a floor-tech. That’s a fancy word for ‘janitor’.
(00:18:02)
So I could kind of like find a room and hide and sleep for 2, 3 hours? It was a big hospital. But I mean, that was my life. Back to my ex-wife. (pause) She was the love of my life for a very long time. And that’s why I could never have a production--a productive relationship. It’s because I never wanted to. But. You know, like she said, it was… By the time I started to love her? The way I should have? It Was already too late. She literally fell out of love with me and was in love with someone else. And that’s her youngest son’s father. You know, by that time, she was just like head over heels in love with this man. Because he was everything I wasn’t. You know? (noise in background) He would take her out and they would spend time together. ‘Cause I was always at work. So that’s why she could always just be with him and didn’t have to worry about getting caught. ‘Cause… I was like, back then you could work as many hours as you7 wanted on the job. And I would! I would put 18 hours in, man. Come home, take me a shower, go to sleep and get up and I’m doin’ that all over again, and there’s only 24 hours in a day, so if I’m spending 18 at a job, how much time I’m, I’m givin’ to my family? You know? Money isn’t everything. I learnt that… The hard way. Cost me my marriage, my kids. My, my, my mentality was, as long as I’m makin’ this money, I’m doin’ my job as a man. But nah. And now I see why my father loved and cherished my mother as much as he did. Because he realized the sacrifices that my mom made so he could do what he do. So he never took that for granted. But I did, I, I took my ex-wife for granted. And with my youngest son’s mom, really don’t want to talk about her. But I will say this: I owe her an apology. I mean, she would never speak to me for me to give it to her. But I do. I owe that woman… The biggest apology that anybody could ever give to another person. Because, all of the anger and hostility that I had towards my ex-wife leavin’ me, oh, man I dumped that all on her. It was like a, it was like a garbage truck full of garbage and I found a field to dump all my garbage out on. Wasn’t abusive. Physically. Never hit a woman, ‘cause that just wasn’t, my father--my father said there’s nothin’ that a man, I mean, there’s nothing that a woman could ever do to a man to make him want to put his hands on her.
(00:21:04)
He said “because if you gotta hit her, it’s time for you to go. Before it happens. Not after. Before. You leave.” And he, he instilled that in to me and my brothers. You do not put your hands on a woman. Period. So we grew up like, with, ‘cause the first time I ever see a man smack a woman, I freaked out! Like “did he just hit her?” I could have been no more than like maybe 8 or 9 and I wanted to fight this kid--this grown man, for smackin’ this woman! I mean, it wasn’t no none of my business but still! That was just… Like, somebody need to say something to this man! You know what I mean? So that’s--but I was, I was very sarcastic. And I’ve learned, just recently, that a sarcastic person is a bully. Because you know how to beat people up with your words. You don’t have to physically hurt them. But you can use words to chop a person down. And they say, believe it or not? Mental abuse or verbal abuse is waaaay more worse than physical abuse. Because a punch or a slap will stop hurtin’. At some point, it’ll stop hurtin’. And if it’s a bruise, it’ll go away. But if you can mentally dog somebody? Man, it takes therapy to get that away, to get over that. And I did. I would say some of the outlandish things to this girl. I would. Don’t wanna repeat any of the things that I used to say. ‘Cause I’m not proud of myself for that. But I would, I would apologize to her. Like a heartfelt apology with tears in my eyes, I would apologize to her and ask her to forgive me for all of the stuff that I put her through. ‘Cause it was, it was a lot, I dumped a lot on her. Everything I wanted to say to my wife, you triflin’, nasty… I would say to her .Even wrote a poem about her called “Skanks and Tricks and ‘Hoes”. (laughs) He like wooow… Some of my best writin’! I don’t wanna repeat the poem, but. I said some things in there that wasn’t, wasn’t nice about women. And the reason why I’m, I stopped reciting that poem to people, ‘cause uh, this older gentlemen that wasn’t even part of the conversation heard me, you know, do the poem one day. And mean, it’s not like he came right up to me afterwards. You know, but he came over there and excused himself and said “can I talk to you for a second?” And um. He said “I heard your poem” and I’m thinkin’ he’s gonna, you know like, oh, it was a nice poem. He said “I heard your poem.” He said “uh, is your mother still alive?”
(00:23:59)
I said “yeah.” He said “Do you have any children? A daughter?” I said “yeah.” “Sisters? Nieces?” “Yeah.” He said “how would you feel if another man wrote those same exact words about your mother? Your daughter? Your sister? Your nieces? Your aunties? How would you feel?” I said “To be honest with you? I’d punch them in they face.” But I didn’t say it that nice though. He said “so, you’d punch yourself in the face? What you just said?” I never repeated that poem to this day. It’s been like maybe… 11 years, 12 years. Never repeated it. I haven’t uttered a word of it other than the title of the poem, but I’ve never recited it again. But that was something to think about. (pause) Yeah. (inaudible) There’s a lot goin’ on inside this head. You know? But uh. Anything else you wanna know?
Uh, so why don’t you talk about, um. Coming back to New Jersey? (sniff) And take us to the present moment. Oh, man. Well. Actually, when I came back here the first time, you know, after I cleaned my life back up, I’ve always liked Savannah. I did. So um. I went to Virginia to help out my daughter for a little while. She’s not my biological daughter, she’s my uh. Grandchildren’s mother. Because my son is the father. But. I love her like my daughter. I’m very--I love that girl. And uh. She um. (pause) Now, my son, for whatever reason, is incarcerated. So I mean, the girl moved on with her life. And she got pregnant and had another baby. And she thought that, you know, everybody was gonna turn they back on her. But like I told her, I said “Just because you got pregnant by somebody else is not gonna stop to the fact that--I don’t, I can’t speak for other people,” I said, “But for me, doesn’t mean I’m gonna stop lovin’ you. Because you got pregnant by somebody else.” I said “because just like my children, my grandchildren came out of you, so what? This baby is gonna come out of you, so how can I say I love you and not love anything that you produce?” So, so that will be my grandbaby too. And that little girl don’t know today that I’m not her biological grandfather. But if anybody was to ever tell me that I wasn’t her grandfather… I would have somethin’ to say. And it wouldn’t that nice. ‘Cause I will die for her just like I would die for any other of my grandchildren. That’s my baby. And I love that little girl with all my heart. Can nobody take that away from me. But she met another man. She’s married to him now. And I get it. You wanted to live your life. Two alpha males can’t live in the same house.
(00:27:01)
You know, so it was gonna come to the point where either he was gonna hurt me, or I was gonna hurt him, or we’s just gonna hurt each other tryin’ to hurt each other. So… It was deemed best for me to leave. So I went back to Savannah. So. But then I started to slip back into my old ways. You know. I mean, I didn’t go full-forth divin’ back in. You know. But the drinkin’. You know. I Got. I did, uh. You know, that’s when I found out that my mom died. I was still in Savannah when my uh, mom passed away. And um. I did, I… I don’t know. Maybe for the first almost year--well, not a whole year, but from the date of time, I started drinkin’ like every day. And then, you know, like. The next year, my mom 2017, my sister 2018, died. (phone dings) I’m in Savannah. Nobody tells me that my sister was even in the hospital. And I get a call…. That my sister is dead. And she’s already buried. (pause) That flipped me out, man. I said “Are you people effin’ serious?” And at that time I, I been stopped cussin’, but, I mean, are you, are you for real? You known like, 8 months after my mom passed away, you gon’ tell me that my sister’s dead? (pause) So I said, “you know what?” ‘Cause I got a sister in PA and that was the plan. I was supposed to go to PA. I mean, but my sister, you know, she has the rheumatary arthritis really bad. And. I mean, people deal with death differently. You know, my sister, my mom first, then my sister. So she did, she fell into a really deep depression and she wasn’t talkin’ to nobody. But I already… Had made plans to come up here because the people that I was stayin’ with had came to me and told me that they sold the house. I didn’t even know that they were gettin’ a divorce. You know, ‘cause they were friends of mines. You know? I mean and, I was renting out, their, like they turned their garage into a, a house. I mean, an apartment. And I was living in the garage. You know? Payin’ my rent. I mean, I had my own--I had access to the kitchen and I had my own bathroom, ‘cause there was a bathroom upstairs that they used. You know. So I mean, so it wasn’t really like I was botherin’ them, or they was botherin’ me.
(00:30:00)
You know, if they cooked, they, I could eat whatever they cooked, or if I cooked I would make enough for them. So it was all--I mean, in my opinion, we were livin’! You know? Because they was only chargin’ me like 300 dollars a month. You know? So that wasn’t even a--a lot. You know what I mean? So we was like, really livin’ good! And then they came to me and was like “well. You gotta be out in 2 weeks.” I’m like “well, what did I do?” They was like “No, it’s nothing to do with you. We’re getting a divorce.” So not knowin’ what I was gonna do, I called my son. And he was like “come, come stay with me, dad. You know, until you can move up to PA with uh, Nadeen!” Okay--well, he said ‘auntie’. I said “okay!” Get here. My sister not answerin’ the phone. Kids goin’ over to the house, bangin’ on the door--she ain’t openin’ the door. (pause) So I’m stayin’ with my son. And, this wife was like “oh, I can’t be comfortable in my own house. Every time I go to the bathroom,” you know, “he’s out there in the livin’ room” and ya ya ya and all of this other stuff. So not to cause problems, but my son was like “you know what, dad? You gotta go.” I mean, but I understand, I get it. That’s his wife. You know what I mean? So I did--that was in October. Then um. So one day I’m at my nephew’s house. And… I get a call from my daughter. That she said “Dad, are you sittin’ down?” I said “Yeah, baby, what’s the matter, everything okay?” And she’s like “Uncle Reggie’s dead.” (pause) I, I just break down and start cryin’. Come on, man. My mom, my sister and now my brother? You know? So my daughter was havin’ a recital, a dance recital, I mean, and she asked me, you know, months in advance, “Grandpa please come! I don’t want you to miss it.” ‘Cause I missed her last one. You know, and I promised her that I was gonna come. So really not wantin’ to, really wantin’ to, I went anyway. You know, and I happy that i did. I got to be with, you know, my family and everything. You know. Whenever we go out, she’s always gotta sit next to Grandpa. You know, ‘cause she loves me. ‘Cause she loves her grandpa. So my ex-wife is sittin’ on the end. Yo7u know, I’m on one end of the table and she’s on the other end and she gets a phone call. And she just--she’s not like boo-hooing, but tears just start runnin’ down her face. And I’m like “Well, she already knew about my brother Richard.” And… She texts me while I’m sittin’ at the table. She said “Don’t make a outburst. (pause) But Katana just died in a car accident.” (pause) And that was my niece, my great niece. Died on the same day as my brother. But in Nevada. My brother was here in New Jersey, my niece was in Nevada.
(00:33:20)
(pause) I got up. Went in the bathroom, man. And I did. I just punched the, I punched the, the bathroom door so hard that I, my, my, my knuckles imprinted the door. That’s how hard I punched it. And at the time my pinkie was broke. Didn’t even know my pinkie was broken. But that’s how mad I was. And um. Son-in-law comes in the bathroom. But his hands on--put his hand on my back. (pause) And he said “ I understand, dad.” I said “No you don’t. You don’t understand. You haven’t lost your mother, ‘cause your mother’s still alive. You a only child, so you don’t have to worry about brothers and sisters. Know what I mean? Or nieces. So you don’t know how I feel. So please don’t sit there and tell me you know how I feel ‘cause you don’t.” Then a friend of mines who lost his mom said the same thing. No you don’t. You don’t know how I feel. You can sympathize, with what I’m goin’ through. Because you’ve gone through the same thing. But you don’t know how I feel. My mother was my best friend. My sister… (pause) (sigh) Couldn’t tell her she wasn’t gonna marry Elton John. She was gonna meet Elton John and they were gonna get married. Okay, you live that fantasy if you like, but who am I. Psh. But, she did. But the thing about my sister, she was a really good writer. I mean this, you could, you could sit down and you can tell her “You know, I have an idea for a story”. You can give her the base of the story. And by the end of the day she would have it written out for you. Just what you gave me. And she could go and finish whatever it is you gave to her, and it would all coincide and make sense. Same thing with music. You could give her a hook and she would sit there and she would practice at home. Same day. Her and my brother was good like that. They used to sit down and write little stories together and songs and all of that. So.. You know, losing that? That was a lot. So, when my sister died, I said “You know what? I, it’s, it’s time for me to come back up here by my family.”
(00:36:03)
And then, when I, like I said, when I got up here, I mean, and I was goin’ through my homeless transition. I found out that my brother died. And my niece, on the same day. So I did, I rode the train. From… October? To December. You know, because… It’s like a dollar and 75 cents I think it is, to get on the PATH train? And… You can just ride the train back and forth. You know, as long as you don’t leave off, off the turnstile, you can stay in there. So you know, they got bathrooms right there so you don’t hae to go out. So I can get off at any stop I wanted to, use the bathroom. You know, if I had, if I had enough change I would take the PATH to 33rd Street. I would walk from 33rd Street down to 42nd. 42nd ain’t like it used to be. Disney done bought up all of that, so. All of the… Not so nice movies aren’t there anymore. (laughs) He shakin’ his head like “I know what he’s talkin’ about!” (laughs) ‘Cause at once upon a time man, you go to 42nd Street, up one block down the next, but nothin’ but peep shows and (laughs) and Den of Iniquity! (laughs) But yeah, so I mean so it, it, it’s not like that no more. I mean, Disney even cleaned that up, you go on 42nd Street you like “that’s not 42nd Street. Not no 42nd Street I knew.” I mean, but I would do that. You know, and… Only thing that made me go to a shelter was Joe, man. I’m, you know. Comin’ into the train, goin’ down the stairs, and these dudes caught themselves tryin’ to rob me! (pause) Know what I mean? Only thing they got was… Uh… (pause) Somebody had gave it to me, it was an old… Walkman. That had a radio on it. I didn’t even have a cassette tape to play, so I would just, you know, like listen to the mornin’ show. Stuff like that. Little radio station. That’s all they, they got from me. Know what I mean? I was like “you gotta be kiddin’ me.” And that’s when I went to Social Services and they put me in the shelter and I’ve been there ever since, but. As you know, I gotta be outta there by the 25th. Got my letter. What’da’ya do? That’s life. Can’t stop the water from flowin’. Even if you put it in a dam. At some point, it’s gonna overflow. So you never stop--you can’t never stop the flow. Can’t stop life. You can’t. Life is, even when I’m gone, life is still gonna go on.
(00:39:00)
You can’t stop it. And that’s my story. Hope it was… Hope you can use any of the information. Unless you wanna know anything else?
Where--do you know where you’re going next? Well, hopefully not to Hell.
(laughs) (laughs) That’s my sense of humor. I mean, I don’t know! I really do. I, I have a few more days. You know? You never know what can happen in a few days. I could be dead by tomorrow. Well, before the 25th. Look at Kobe Bryant.
Are you still going down to Savannah? No, supposed to be down there but they cancelled the wedding. (pause) Would you like to hear about that too? ‘Cause I can tell you. Well. I haven’t seen the video and I don’t want to. But apparently, the bachelor night… (pause) From my understanding, it wasn’t a full sexual act? That he was engaging in? But this certain young lady… Had her… Area… Area all in his face. And at some point when this area was in his face, looked like she was enjoyin’ whatever it was he was doin’. On this video. That went on for about maybe 2 to 3 minutes. And somebody stood there and video recorded that for 2 to 3 minutes! Sick if you ask me. Then, she takes his hand, leads him off to VIP and then that’s where the uh… Tape stops. That’s where the recording stops. How did she get this tape sent to her phone you may ask? The dude that was supposed to have been the best man sent it to her. “Oh, I made a mistake and pressed the wrong button! I thought I was sending it to one of the homies!” Dude, are you serious. That’s the story that you’re telling, that you want everyone to believe? Come on, man. So. She was like “oh, I’m callin’ the wedding off.” I”m like, oh, okay. So that, you know, there goes--’cause I was gonna stay down there for, you know. Maybe about a week or two, you know, just so I could try to… Figure out. You know. What I was gonna do. You know? So Then I get a phone call from my niece. And she says “Do you really wanna know the reason why I um, I called off the wedding?” I said, “no, not really” I said, “but you gonna tell me anyway.” (pause) She said “I won the lottery.” (pause)
(00:42:00)
She said “I bought a JumboBuff, scratched it off, and I won 50 grand. And I took it. I took it, I took it down here, I filled out the paperwork and everything” and she said about 3 days ago, they sent her a check in the mail for 35,000. So she said she took it down and she put it in a, some kind of account that’s locked for like---it’s locked for 6 months? No matter what, she can’t touch the money. But it accumulates because it’s a, a large amount? It accumulates a certain amount of interest. On the money. So they say it’s a really good return on your investment, know what I mean? And she’s a RN, so she makes good money to begin with. So her thing is, if I marry this dude, then it becomes communical property. He can get… Half the money. So that’s the real reason why she called off the wedding. She doesn't want to share her 35,000 dollars. (pause) So that’s where I'm at. (pause) Sucks. Anything else?
Anything you want to share, just in terms of… Hmm…
Your experience? (phone dings) Well I think I pretty much told you everything!
Lessons? Well! Got a lot of those… I mean. (pause) Being married is a lesson. Never take the smaller things for granted. You want to take the small things? I mean one time, it snowed outside, and I did, I worked a bunch of hours. We had like a--it wasn’t a blizzard, but we got maybe about maybe… 2 to 3… Feet of snow. And… I came home and I was, I was tired. And she asked me, she was like “oh, come outside and play with me!” I mean (inaudible) at me, she’s still a, she’s still a, you know, she’s still young! You know? This is while she was still pregnant with my daughter so she was still like 16 years old! You know, she was like “come on, let’s go outside and play in the snow!” And I’m lookin’ at her like “are you out of your effin’ mind?” We’re grown people! But we’re not. ‘Cause she’s still a kid. And all--all she wanted to do was go out. And play in the snow. And like my mom said, she probably wouldn’t have been out there for so long ’cause it was so cold. But if you woulda just went out there, played in the snow? It would have made her day. So that’s one lesson that I learned from being married. Never take the small things for granted.
(00:44:40)
Second lesson I learned being married: Friend of mine come to us, he was like “Oh, man, you’re never gonna believe what Mama White gave me for my birthday!” And we was like “what?!” He was like “A threesome!” We was like “Word?” He was like “yeaaah! It was awesome!” Okay. So our anniversary was comin’ up. So I did, I asked my wife. I said “hey, you ever thought of a, have you ever--” I said, “Would you ever give me a threesome?” She said “is that what you want?” I said “Yeah!” She said “Okay, I’ll tell you what. We’re gonna, we’re gonna go, we’re gonna find a girl, we’ll get her checked out, make sure ain’t nobody got nothin’ that, you know, we can catch. And we’re gonna have your threesome.” She said “but right after we’re finished, I’m gonna go find a guy, and do the same thing. So I can have mines.” I said “Now why would I wanna mess around with a, with my wife with another guy?” She said “well, why would I wanna mess with my husband and another woman?” And her exact words to me was “Never ask me to do something for you that you’re not willing to do for me.” Second lesson I learned bein’ married. Don’t ask your wife dumb stuff. (laughs) As far as bein’ a father… Never add children up into grown people stuff.
(00:46:07)
(pause) And when I say that, growin’ up, I told you how I grew up. These grown people were angry at a child for something that I had nothing to do with. So they were adding me into grown people stuff. So as I got older, I never wanted to migrate that into my children. It’s not until they got older, and it wasn’t even from me. It’s not until they got older that they found out the truth of what happened between me and they mother. Because they mother always told them that I abandoned them. That I walked out on them. But the truth of the matter was, you was cheatin’! I found out that you were cheating. You were the one who wanted the divorce! And I gave you what you wanted. That wasn’t for me to tell my children. (pause) Because, why would I, why would I want to ruin the image of their mother to them so I could have kudo points? So I could be like “Oh, I was the upright guy, your mother was the one that was the bad person.” Nah, man. I’ll take that. You wanna, you wanna hate me? I’ll take it. I’ll eat that.’cause I know in the long run, the truth is gonna come out. And it did! I mean, it took years. But It did. So. That’s my thing. Never add children up into grown people stuff. I don’t, so those are the lessons that I took from those experiences of my life. You know? Another one? Never cut off your nose to spite your face.
(00:47:52)
If somebody is willing to try to help you? Don’t be so prideful that you can lose out on a good thing. Because… You don’t wanna ex--you don’t wanna break down and say “I need you.” (pause) And, I was like hat for years. You know? I never wanted to say “I need you.” To anybody. I’m a man, I’m gonna handle whatever t is that’s goin’ on. Even when I was ridin’ that train… I’m homeless, but I’m homeless on my own terms. What sense does that make! I mean, how can you rationally sit down and think that that’s a good thing? “Oh, I’m homeless, but it’s ‘cause I wanna be!” (laughs) Nobody wants to be homeless, man, know what I mean? But you c--you convince yourself. So don’t, don’t think more of yourself than is, than is necessary, know what I mean? Because uh, I don’t know if you recall, but like we was talkin’ before, you go home to your home, I go to the shelter. We both lay down in the bed, we both get sleep. We both have heat. Does that make you any better than me, because you have a home and I’m in a shelter? So, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s lessons like that is what I’m learning. You know, that’s why I said they need to redefine that word, homeless. I’m just livingly challenged right now. I just don’t have my own key. One day I will. You know, because like I said, there’s levels of homelessness, and I’m not, I’m not stinky. Because you know, you, you--I don’t know if you ever walk past some homeless people, boy do they smell. I’m not stinky. I bathe every day. But I’m homeless. (pause) I don’t eat out of a garbage can, but I eat every day and I’m homeless. Know what I mean? I don’t sleep in a doorway. At night, or under a bridge. Or in a car. But I don’t have a place to stay. But I sleep in a buildin’, but I’m homeless. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s those things. It’s those kind of things where, you have to sit down and you have to just be thankful for everything that you have. You know, like I said, my headphones got stolen. My bracelet got stolen. They still go in there, takin’ the food that I buy, you know, because I’m a diabetic and I can’t ea--I can’t eat everything that you eat. And they asked me yesterday, they was like “yo man. Your headphones just got stolen but you’re in here laughin’ and makin’ jokes!” Me sittin’ down here bein’ angry, is that gonna bring me my headphones back?
[ Annotation 10 ] [ Annotation 11 ]
(00:51:00)
I just don’t, I don’t understand that. That’s like if, you, you’re givin’ out a job, or this gentleman here is workin’ with you because he’s tryin’ to learn what you already know. But if he has the attitude--”well, I don’t have to sit here and watch what you’re doing, just give me the mic--give me this, let me, and let me do what I do!” Come on! You already know what to do! How you gonna tell somebody who already has the job… What they should do? That doesn’t make any sense. The best thing to do is what he’s doin’--he’s sittin’ down, he’s payin’ attention, he’s listenin’, learnin’ what to do. And that’s what life is all about. You have to sit down and accept that I’m tryin’ to get help from you. You have the resources to help me. So I can’t come and demand, give me anything. I can’t come in with a attitude and try to insult you, curse you out, then expect for you to say “okay, let me help you find a place to stay Mr. Wallace.” It doesn’t work like that! And I see it every day over there at the shelter. You arguin’ with the staff and you cursin’ the staff out. For what dude? You know. One dude was cursin’m out, and all while they was cursin’ them out, they was fillin’ out the paperwork. (pause) Went in the back--when you see them green bags! It like death row. When you see them walkin’ down that isle? You know it’s time. When you see them walk in with them green bags? That’s your death row, bro. Now you baggin--now you out! I’m just a guy kicked out! With all that cursin’ and bein’ angry and mad. Now you out! What sense did that make? Please explain that to me. ‘Cause I don’t understand. You have to respect the powers that be. (pause) That, there’s no gettin’ around that. You have the resources. That’s why you go to Social Services. ‘Cause you’re tryin’ to get help. They cut me off my, they cut me off my benefits. I haven’t gotten no benefits this month. Know what I’m sayin’? So. Do--people go up there every day. “Oh, I still haven’t got my money!” “Okay, we gotta fill out the paperwork.” They’re tellin’ you the same thing they told you when you came yesterday! But you go back up there and you cursin’ these people out! And they tellin’ you it’s paperwork! “Oh, I need my money!” You think you gonna get it--you think you gonna get it doin’ that? Bro, your paperwork gonna sit there. “Oh yeah, this idiot back again.” ‘Case very time you come up there and put in a new claim, because that’s what you’re doing. You’re puttin in a new claim! “Okay, so, okay, we had his paperwork but he put a new one in so rip rip rip!” That’s--they startin’ all over. Bra, you’re never gonna get your money!
(00:54:04)
Just let them do what they do! Last time I went up there, the lady was like “they haven’t even processed your paperwork yet”. I said “okay, thank you, have a nice day.” And I left! What am I gonna do, argue with you ‘cause you ain’t processed my paperwork? Lady called me on the phone the other day. “Uh, is this Mr. Wallace?” Well, you called my phone, yeah. “Oh, this is so-and-so from Social Services, we’re just callin’ to see if you’re still in the men’s shelter.” “Yes I am.” “Is that 855 Perry Drive?” “No, that’s my son’s old address. He doesn’t even live there anymore.” “Oh, well, what’s the address to where you live?” (laughs) So I gave her my address. “Okay, Mr. Wallace, we’re gonna have to--we’re gonna start to process your paperwork.” And this was the, this was like.. Wednesday. So if it takes a week for you to process my paperwork, I’m still lookin’ at next Wednesday before I might even get the money. You know what I mean? So that means the whole month of February almost done went by, and I haven’t, I haven’t got a dollar. But let me tell you the good part about that. I came every day. I had clean clothes to put on my body every day. Had food to put in my mouth every day! So why be mad because you didn’t give me the benefits that you know. They said you was gonna give me? It didn’t stop, it don’t stop life. You can tell me right now, when this is all over, “I’m gonna give you 5,000 dollars (inaudible) for doing this. But if you never give me that 5,000 dollars, life is still gonna go on. So every time I see you, I can be mad like “damn, where’s my 5,000 dollars, you promised it to me!” “Well, I’ma get it to you Charles, don’t worry about it!” “Well, what’s goin on all the time that that’s happenin’?” Life is goin’ on. So if I’m gonna sit there and put myself in a box and wait for something that you said you was gonna give to me? Where am I ever gonna get a life?
(00:56:13)
So no, you keep on livin’ life. ‘Cause if it’s meant for you to walk up to me and be like “Charles, remember that 5 grand I told you I was gonna give you? Here it is.” (pause) You see what I’m sayin’? But if I put myself right here… And I’m mad and I’m angry. And every time I see you I might even not send them to you but I’m whisperin’ to you. “(whispers) You owe me 5 grand and he ain’t never gonna pay me my money (end whispering)” and I’m sayin’ all this foolishness about you, but. Guess what! Dan is livin’ his life! (laughs) You eatin’ the same way! You livin’ the same way! ‘Cause that’s life. You can’t stop life! So I never put myself in a box. Ever! For nothin’. For nobody. I’m not gonna put myself in a box. You give me what you gonna give me. When I get it, I get it. If I don’t ever get it, I can never miss it because how can you miss something you've never had? Know what I’m sayin’? You might tell me you gonna give me 5 grand and never give it to me! I might meet him, he hear my plight “What’s goin’ on? Well you know what, I wanna help you Charles.” Bam! And he gives me 5 grand. Wouldn’t make a difference where the 5 grand came from, as long as I got it! You promised it to me! God heard you! Use him to give me what you said you was gonna, what you promised. See how that works? ‘Cause you can’t stop nothin’ that God is gonna give you. So if it’s meant for me to have whatever I’m gonna have, I’m gonna have it. Whether Social Services never gives me (phone starts ringing) the benefits--or they kick me out on the 25th.
(00:58:03)
END FIRST RECORDING
____________________________________________________________________________
SECOND RECORDING
(00:00:00)
You can’t… You know. Whatever is gonna be is gonna be. Can’t stop it. Like. Whatever you gonna use this for, I done gave it to you. I can’t stop how you’re gonna use it. Or if you ever use it. It’s all… This is life. And life goes just like this. So you can’t start from here and than jump to here. Thinkin’ that all of this here is just gonna stay where it is. You can’t jump from point A and go all the way to Z. You can’t. I don’t care who you are. I don’t care if you rich. I don’t care if you’re the President of the United States. I don’t care who you are. You have a, you have to live life the way it goes. Life goes differently for some people. I mean, now that’s the beautiful thing. You live your life, but you live your life differently. You know? Right now, I’m livin’ my life as a homeless man. That’s my chapter. When I uh, when I turned 18 years old, my mother said to me, she said “for 18 years, I’ve wrote the story of your life. I told you what to do. What time to eat. What time to go to bed. I told you you had to go to school. You had to get good grades, take out the trash, you got chores. I wrote the first 18 years of your story.” And she handed me a pen. She said “Now start writing your own story.” And I’ve been writing my story and my life since I was 18 years old. I call this “The Homeless Chapter.” (pause) ‘Cause I, I have no place right now. You know? You can have a place and not have a place. Why do you think people get divorced? You can, you can be in a place and not happy in that place. So much to the fact that you want to spend 90% of your time away from that place. So what do you really have? A domicile/ Somewhere where you can go lay your head, wash your clothes, wash your body, have something to eat. But are you happy? ‘Cause I’m happy. With my life, I’m happy. Because I know this is not, this is not my outcome. (pause) It’s just a part of my story. (pause)
Thank you, Charles. You’re welcome. (clap) (clap) (clap)
I really appreciate it. Mhm hmm! Nice meetin’ you.
Nice meeting you, too.
(00:03:08)
END OF SECOND RECORDING
END OF THIRD FOLDER