Hector Torres

Hector Torres has had several recurring health issues. He talks about his experiences with the healthcare system as a person with no health insurance and how he is treated differently than he was when he did have health insurance.

“When I had insurance, I was– I was like, uh. When I had insurance, I was like the president of the United States! You know? They treated me very well. But when, uh, I didn’t have no insurance anymore, they treated me like, oh, you know. Like I was, you know, nothing. And I don’t have the insurance, so they’re gonna just have me wait.”
— Hector Torres

ANNOTATIONS

1. Uninsured - While the implementation of the Affordable Care Act has improved the health circumstances of millions of people since 2010, particularly people with low incomes, Latinos, and young adults, the number of uninsured Americans has increased since 2017. According to the 2020 National Health Interview Survey, 31.6 million people were uninsured. Most of them are nonelder adults, as people over 65 years old have access to Medicare and/or other private health insurance coverage. A survey from the Kaiser Family Foundation in 2019 shows that, while most nonelder Americans gain health insurance through a job, a big portion of uninsured people don’t have access to employer-sponsored coverage or can’t afford the premiums. Most people claimed that they were uninsured because of the high cost of coverage. Some people who can’t afford private health insurance also are ineligible for financial assistance or some public health insurance programs such as Medicaid, especially adults in states that didn’t expand Medicaid eligibility. Families with low incomes also are more likely to be ineligible for financial assistance. Some other reasons of being uninsured are that people don’t think they need health insurance and some can’t find a plan that meets their needs. According to the 2018 Commonwealth Fund Biennial Health Insurance Survey, 3 out of every 20 people became uninsured because they lost or changed their jobs. Many people remain uninsured for more than a year. Over half of uninsured adults who previously joined Medicaid programs lost their Medicaid coverage because they became ineligible.
2. Uninsured, Unemployment, Disability - The 2006 National Survey Of Households Affected By Cancer, launched by the Kaiser Family Foundation, states that one in ten participants who had cancer lost their jobs because of the disease, and that one in five have been questioned about their ability to work after being diagnosed with cancer. Some were unable to remain on their insurance plan or buy health insurance because of cancer. Under the Social Security Act, disabled people whose working hours significantly decreased or who had completely stopped working thus lost access to employer-sponsored health insurance. Some may choose to sign up for Social Security Disability Insurance or Supplemental Security Income programs to become eligible for Medicaid or Medicare. For people who become uninsured after job loss due to cancer, the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) of 1986 provides one more way to obtain insurance. In NJ, employees may be eligible for COBRA when they have previously been enrolled in either the State Health Benefits’ Program or the School Employees’ Health Benefits Program and can temporarily resume their health coverage for a limited period of time up to twenty-nine months. For someone in Torres' situation, who could not work because of a cancer diagnosis, the full implementation of Affordable Care Act in 2014 has also improved chances of access and affordability of healthcare for people with disabilities. Still, in the 2017 New Jersey Disability Status Report, less than 10% of disabled, working-aged people in New Jersey didn’t have health insurance. People are required to meet many standards when applying for public health insurance plans and a lot of coverage is temporary or needs to be renewed once a year.
3. Gaps in Health Insurance Services - Since health insurance aims to provide people affordable and constant healthcare services, people without health insurance can relatively access less needed care. Some uninsured people do not have many options for places where they can get healthcare services. They may be less likely to have a personal doctor or see other healthcare professionals on a regular basis, and can receive less effective care than those who have insurance all the time. They are also more likely to rate their healthcare experiences as less satisfactory or dissatisfactory. People who have interacted with multiple physicians can find it difficult to communicate with the doctors who are not familiar with their health conditions. Every time a patient sees a new doctor they are asked similar questions and have to take the same initial tests over again if the transferring information and medical records are lost or cannot be coordinated. They may not get to ask important questions to the doctor or get the appropriate answers back before the visit ends. They may also not have the chance to ask doctors questions about their diagnosis or treatment regime. Because of this, some people instead choose to not see a doctor. According to a 2020 survey from the Kaiser Family Foundation, more than two fifths of uninsured people have not seen a doctor in a year. Such actions may result in less access to preventive care. Many people without insurance have to delay or cancel preventive care exams or follow-up screens to avoid costs. Thus, they have a higher risk of getting a late-stage diagnosis of diseases.
4. Uninsured, Financial Barriers - As Torres illustrates how he struggled with medical expenses, many Americans are experiencing a similar dilemma. People who lost their jobs and insurance have few options for affordable coverage plans. To avoid high costs, many people choose to skip and reduce necessary medical visits or prescription filling. In a 2010 Commonwealthfund survey, two out of five Americans did not get healthcare services they needed. Financial conditions was the factor people mentioned the most frequently when talking about getting necessary care. Over half of uninsured adults didn’t fill a prescription for their chronic condition because of cost. A 2020 Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) survey shows that working-aged people without insurance were more likely to not be able to afford medical bills and emergencies than insured adults. They also expressed their worries about paying medical bills if they got sick or if accidents happened. Moreover, hospitals may charge uninsured patients more than patients who have private insurance or public insurance coverage. Many people without insurance may not be able to pay off their medical debt as there is no provider to share the bills. A 2022 survey also held by KFF finds that a majority of uninsured Americans under 65 years old delayed necessary treatment, and people without insurance are more likely to skip medical treatment due to cost. More than two fifths of people have some kind of medical debt owned to, for instance, a bank or their family member.
5. Temporary Health Coverage - The Affordable Care Act (ACA) has gradually provided provisions and expansions that would benefit cancer patients. A medicaid expansion that was initially added in 2014 allowed more people and families with lower income to be eligible with less restrictions. This expansion is essential for cancer patients, because having a cancer diagnosis without health insurance can cause more problems for lower income groups in the U.S. and can limit their access to cancer treatment and monitoring. For patients who are not eligible for insurance plans that are inclulded in the ACA, the federal and state governments also provide the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). In cases when an employee ceases or reduces working hours due to any event other than “gross misconduct”, their employer must inform the reason that causes the termination of their group health insurance. The type of reason will decide who is the beneficiary of COBRA and the time period of the continuation coverage COBRA must provide. According to the State of New Jersey, a cancer patient like Torres who became disabled and therefore lost their job can apply to COBRA for temporary health insurance that can last up to twenty-nine months. COBRA requires the insured beneficiary to pay for the premiums on time, and the premium may increase for people who receive additional disability extensions. Therefore, the government encourages people to first apply for affordable insurance coverage such as Medicaid, Medicare, or the Health Insurance Marketplace before applying to COBRA because COBRA may be more expensive than those insurance programs.
6. Medical Gaslighting - Medical gaslighting is often defined as a physician or other medical professionals denying or dismissing a patient’s symptoms and leading the patient to question themselves. It can happen to anyone, but women are particularly more likely to experience it, since they have been historically dismissed from their mental health conditions by the medical community. People of color are also more likely to go through medical gaslighting. The improper diagnosis can mislead and delay the right treatment for patients for years and cause serious consequences. As Torres mentioned, his doctor disbelieved that he had symptoms of asthma. Many doctors refuse to find a patient's own language as credible because of an assumption that they are elaborating their feelings and symptoms. It often happens when the symptoms, such as chronic pain, are not easily identifiable, or if the doctor lacks the relevant medical knowledge and unintentionally dismisses a patient based on previous experience. It can result in stigmatization and disbelief in the patient themselves. Some patients may respond to disbelief with frustration and anger and decide to go to somewhere else to seek help. In the COVID-19 pandemic, many patients who have not fully recovered from some long-term, post-viral symptoms have been dismissed and gaslit because these symptoms are more difficult to observe than those that cause immediate and acute damage to the patient.
7. Doctor-Patient Relationship - In their 2017 article, Hardavella et al. propose that challenging doctor-patient relationships consists of three factors: doctors, patients, and the healthcare system. As conveyed by Torres, patients may have varying degrees of expectations of the health care system and doctors. They may have mistrust against doctors if they have had unpleasant experiences with the system or the doctor. They can also develop high levels of trust. According to a survey conducted by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago from 2020 to 2021, there is a correlation between the patient’s trust of doctors and the doctor’s trust and care of the patient. Patients are more likely to show a high level of trust if they feel trust and care from the doctor. On the other hand, doctors can behave badly if they lack training. For example, as Torres mentioned, some physicians and other healthcare practitioners may use offensive words or phrases when communicating with the patient, or not offer proper advice or services. The doctor might not notice the patient is anxious or spend enough time listening to the patient. It may be because of the intensive load in the healthcare system. The scheduled visit time can be too short, or the waiting time for seeing a doctor can be too long. In addition, paperwork and medical care can take up a large portion of physicians’ work time. A 2000 study held by Gilchrist et al. shows that doctors who participated in the survey spent 40% more time on medical care activities, which include dictating and reviewing reports, and are out of the visit room more so than they are inside the visit room with the patient. This can result in circumstances where patients can wait for a long time or the doctor may spend less time on the patient.
8. Uninsured, Patient Dumping - Patient dumping is a term used to describe when a hospital refuses to take patients, or transfers them to other hospitals, because they are uninsured or cannot afford medical bills. The U.S. government attempted to stop hospitals from discharging patients through several statutes since 1946 but all barely worked. In 1985, the U.S. Congress passed the Consolidated Omnibus Reconciliation Act (COBRA), and the following year the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) enacted as a part of COBRA. EMTALA restricts hospitals from committing economic discrimination by requiring hospitals to accept anyone who needs emergency treatment and provide medical examination, regardless of whether they have insurance or the ability to pay their bills. The hospital must treat the patient with emergent care until their conditions become stable or unless the hospital is not able to treat the patient. In the latter case, the hospital needs to ask for consent of the patient for transferring them to a hospital or an institution that is capable of treating them, and the transfer hospital must take the patient. In 1989, an amendment passed prohibiting hospitals from delaying healthcare services or asking a patient about their payment capacity or proof of insurance. The US Court of Appeals claimed in 1999 that EMTALA applies to patients who develop emergency medical conditions regardless of the location where the emergencies occur. However, the statutes only force hospitals to admit patients with emergency conditions. The hospitals are allowed to refuse an uninsured patient with nonlethal health conditions.
9. Uninsured, Pandemic - During the COVID-19 pandemic, many Americans lost their jobs and therefore their employee-sponsored health insurance for themselves and their families. According to the statistics from the Commonwealth Fund, six percent of Americans lost their employer insurance coverage due to job loss during the first half of 2021. Only more than half of those have obtained other coverage, such as Medicaid or Medicare, or through the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). Many people, however, were not eligible for affordable public health insurance programs and could not buy individual insurance. These uninsured people can be in a very difficult situation when facing medical problems, especially in the pandemic. For instance, uninsured people are less likely to receive COVID-19 testing and treatment services than insured people, and are susceptible to receiving expensive medical bills. With such a surge in the number of people in urgent need of non-expensive medical support, in March 2020 the Families First Coronavirus Response Act was enacted to provide people without insurance expanded opportunities with Medicaid programs that offer free COVID-19 testing and diagnosis. For 2022, New Jersey opened annual enrollment that is called the “Expanded Access” initiative for free or almost free health insurance coverage for uninsured residents who were in certain income levels for the past year. However, the initiative didn’t mention people who cannot meet the expanded income level or the financial support for COVID-related treatment. People who are ineligible for Medicaid programs or can’t afford following treatment services still have difficulties accessing necessary healthcare services.
10. Medicaid - Having health insurance does not mean that people can get free medical services all of the time. Rather, the insured has to pay out-of-pocket (OOP) costs including coinsurance and deductibles, and for services that the insurance plan does not cover. In 2015, the Affordable Care Act added an OOP maximum for insurance companies, limiting the annual costs the insured enrollees spend on healthcare services. If the annual expense exceeded the OOP maximum, the insurance company is required to pay for the customer’s medical bills for the rest of the plan year. Nevertheless, many people find it difficult to afford these OOP costs before they reach the OOP limit, as the maximum is usually up to thousands of dollars. For example, the 2022 maximum for Medicare's Medigap plans K and L are $6,620 and $3,310 respectively, while the annually deductibles of various Medicare plans vary from $233 to $1,556. People may not be able to afford one single visit if they have to pay expensive deductibles by themselves before the insurance company pays for them. People may also worry about the cost of prescribed drugs if the drugs are not included in the coverage they have. The prescription deductible is usually a separate plan for public health insurance programs where people pay the premium additionally. It can be an extra expense that adds to people’s burden. In addition, the monthly premium for normal insurance plans does not count toward the OOP maximum. These medical expenses can cost people more than they can afford even for people with insurance coverage.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Jody Wood

New Brunswick, New Jersey

July 16, 2021

Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn

Annotations by Yingtong Li


[RECORDING ONE]

[00:00:00]

To you, basically. Um, okay. So, [static] first, just kind of introduce yourself.

Yes.

And tell me your name. And just–

Oh.

Look right at the camera for now.

Er, uh, my name is Hector Torres. And [shuffling] I live in New Brunswick. And– [shuffling]

Okay. I’m stopping for a minute, and then I’ll restart it. Okay, and, action! I’m just doing this with my hand to do “action.” Okay. Okay.

Again, my name is Hector Torres. And I’m here to say about, uh, doctors and emergencies? That, uh, if, uh, you don’t have no insurance. [coughs] Excuse me. They’ll turn you away and if you go to emergencies, how many times I’ve been there, because my health is just a– I had surgery for colon cancer, I had knee surgery. You know, I had, uh, I had trouble with my blood and I have asthma. And, you know, I have no insurance and when you go to the ER they’ll tell you, “Oh, how many– I’ll let you know. Oh, you’ve been here so many times.” And, you know, and then they have you waiting when they wanna treat you. And it’s like, I tell them is– I tell them that, [tsk], “This is a hospital. This is an emergency. It’s not caring how many times you been there or– or what is– what is your thing is they’re supposed to take care of you whether you have insurance or not, or have you waiting in the hallway until they decide they want to take care of you.” And–

Okay, great. Can you, so, can you look right at me when you’re talking?

Oh, okay.

That’s perfect, that’s perfect. And then you can just start off, I think that’s a really good summary of what you’re going to talk about. And then– I’m just gonna walk it back to, if we could talk more about what you were first saying, that you used to have two jobs and then, um, how your situation kind of changed when you got sick.

Yeah. Okay, yeah, so. Well, I had two jobs. I was workin’ at a BP Gas Station and at night I was working at a UPS. You know, I had insurance. And everything was so fine until I got sick and I had my surgery for colon cancer. Then, now, it’s like I’m havin’ trouble with my insurance. You know, and I have to go to the, uh, emergency when I, you know, have asthma, because I have severe asthma. You know. And I go to the emergency, you know. And they take your time when you don’t have no insurance, to take care of you, and stuff, and– That’s not right because, you know, a doctor, I mean a doctor, it’s a doctor! They’re supposed to take care of you, regardless, no matter what! And–

Did you lose your job when you got diagnosed with–

[00:02:56]

Yes, I lost both of my jobs when I got diagnosed with colon cancer, and I lost, actually, I lost both of my insurance from the job, that I couldn’t. And they got me on disability. [clears throat] And the doctor said that I can’t work anymore because of my condition of asthma, my cancer, and everything. And now I’m havin’ trouble with the insurance, uh, from the government that, uh, it’s– [inaudible] I was supposed to have got this a long time ago to go to the emergency. And they keep sending me 300 dollars, 400 dollars, 5000 dollars, almost, you know, a lot of bills! And that, I can’t– I can’t afford that, you know. And they– they call and they say “Oh,” you know, “the doctor had told me,” when– When I got– when I got a call from the hospital, I answer it, and it’s all, “How you feelin’ Mr. Torres?” And I said, “I’m fine.” And they said that, “The doctor that you seen the other day in the hospital, they said that to ask me to call.” They– they asked them to call me, because I keep goin’ into the hospital because of, I don’t have insurance and what. And I cannot, and I told her, when she called, I said, “I’m gonna say it again. It’s a hospital. You cannot turn anybody down, regardless if you don’t have no insurance, you have, waiting. Because all they care about is the money. You know? The money and insurance. If you don’t have either, they want to kill you. They leave you in the hallway and everything. And that– that’s ridiculous. And something gotta be done about this. You know, because a lot of people get sick. That’s how come they call it “emergency hospital”. And that’s– that’s– that’s ridiculous. And it get to me because it happen to me not once but so many times. That they refuse a couple’a times they refuse to take care of me because I don’t have no insurance and stuff. You know, and basically I just don’t know what to do! [coughs] And– and it really hurts me because, I mean, I’m not feeling– it’s not just me, it’s just everybody else that have no insurance or what and they keep getting turned away. Just the other day I was in the hospital and they had me sittin’ there for hours and hours until they decide they wanna come take care of me. And then this lady was there. And she, I heard the conversation, “Oh, well,” you know, “since you don’t have insurance, you know, we can’t do any much for you.” And I was just like, “You kiddin’ me!” I– and I see the doctor. And I said, “You coulda done somethin’ for her, or something, or give her some medication to take home! Just because she don’t have insurance doesn’t mean, you know, the hospital’s to help people. Not turn any– anybody away.” You know? Regardless if you don’t have no insurance or anything. But they send you a bill and last time I got a bill, it was about almost 10,000 dollar bill! 

[Annotation 2]

[Annotation 3]

[Annotation 8]

[00:06:12]

And I was like–  and they actually called me in– in about that. “When you gonna get your insurance?” I said, “When I get my insurance, I will let you know. Can you please stop calling me!” You know, I– I just don’t know what to do! I mean, I– I wasn’t sayin’ it to be a smart, a smart guy or anything. I just said it because that’s all they care is insurance, insurance! Because what it is is the doctors, they wanna charge more to the insurance, what they are really supposed to charge, what, you know, for the medical thing. And insurance that I got now from the state, they refusin’ to give me my insurance because I owe them almost about 500 dollars, and when I used to get my medication, I used to get my medication for free and stuff. And now I can’t get my medication unless when I go and get my medication. And if I don’t have insurance, I gotta pay either four to 300 dollars just for two medications. And I can’t afford that! And there’s a lot of people that goin’ through that. Not just me. So, you know. 

[Annotation 1]

So when you first lost both of your jobs and you applied to your insurance, what kind of insurance were you applying to?

I had the state. I had the Horizon, New Jersey Horizon from the state, and I had the Humana from the mass. And they’re both refusing until they decide they wanna give me the insurance. They’re gonna give it to me. But I keep callin’ them and they say, “Oh, you have to wait,” and this and that. So.

And did they tell you that they were missing any paper– or, like, what exactly– when you filed for the insurance and then, basically, can you walk me through exactly what happened? Like, were you filing on the computer and then what notices they sent?

[overlapping] No, actually, I went to our local insurance on Howe Lane. I went and got the paper. And I said– when I went there I said– you couldn’t go in because, you know, I had to wait outside for the paperwork because, you know, with the COVID-19, uh, I can’t, nobody can’t go in there. So they give me the paper. I filled it out correctly. I looked it over. And then all of a sudden I got in the mail said, oh, I was denied. So, I went back and I said, “Look. You give me the wrong paper. I need the paperwork for myself.” [cough] Excuse me. “I need the paper for myself, insurance that I need.” Okay, I got that. That, filled it out, oh, okay. You know, I looked it over before I send it out. Okay. Everything is okay. And then a couple of weeks later, I got, uh, another letter saying I was denied. And then, uh, I said, “Okay.” I went again for a third time! [chuckles] And then, um, then I said, “Look, you keep giving me the wrong paper.” Okay, so he gave it to me, I filled it out. 

[00:09:13]

And then when I noticed it was the same three, or the two I had filled out! I said, “Okay, this could be the right one.” So I filled it out, and then they call me and said, “No, this is the wrong paperwork.” I said, “Well. I told them it’s for me.” And then– so when they called me they send me the correct paper. Okay. So I filled it out. And then, uh. “Okay, everything is okay.” So I filled, I sent it out. And I still have– I got no response just yet, so. We’ll see what happens, maybe it’ll be the right one.

And how long ago did you first start to fill paperwork out? How long has this been?

It’s been like– like a month right now. Like a month right now, so.

So you’ve been [overlapping, inaudible]

[overlapping] Hopefully I didn’t get no calls or no letters or I guess finally it could be the right one, so. See what happens.

Let’s hope.

Yeah.

So in this month that you’ve been waiting for insurance, that you haven’t had insurance, how many times have you had to go into the hospital?

Phew! For my asthma? I had to– I had to go in, like, about five, like, five or six. I went into the– wait, wait. My bad. I went in there about ten or eight, ten times I went in there for my asthma. And then they said that, “Oh,” you know, “you don’t have asthma.” I said, “You cannot tell me I have asthma, because I do have asthma.” “Oh, I don’t hear no wheezing,” I said, “I, well, it’s my body. I hear the wheezing when my lungs are closing.” And then they gave me one of those things that you blow on and they said, “Oh!” Then the doctor came, “Yes, Mr. Torres, you have asthma.” I said, “I know that!” You know, “That’s what I’ve been tellin’ your assistant!” And stuff. You know, and– and a hospital is a joke. A hospital is a joke. You know. And, I just don’t know what to do, you know? I’m gonna–

[Annotation 6]

[overlapping] Can you– can you take me through one of– one of these experiences from start to finish? Like, um, so you’ve been in about ten or eleven times for asthma and then you’re probably also in for colon cancer, right?

Yeah, I went in for colon cancer once.

Can you tell me about– about that whole experience of first having symptoms and then going in the hospital [overlapping, inaudible]?

Well, to be honest? I went in– okay, excuse me. I went into the hospital because I had asthma. But I didn’t feel no symptoms of me having colon cancer. So when I went in, they said, “Oh, you look pale.” And, “What is wrong with you?” I said, “You tell me, ‘cause you’re the one that noticed that I have– I was pale.” So the, um, they did the blood work and everything.

[00:12:00]

And they did a– a CAT scan, and they said, “Oh,” and I was bleeding through my colon and you know, and stuff. And they said that– asked me a lot of questions like, to be honest, I don’t even know the history of my family, you know. All I know is history of myself, you know? “Do you, any of your family smoke? Do this?” And I said, “Not that I know of.” You know, and they left me in the hospital. And then, like, in the next day, they did the surgery for colon cancer and stuff. 

Was it pretty, uh, what stage was it in? How–

They didn’t actually tell me, ‘cause that, to me, it probably wasn’t really that bad, but– The doctors told me that I couldn’t work anymore because of that cancer, and surgeries, and my history, so. They put me on, uh, social security disability. Yeah.

And so when you got the surgery, did you have insurance through your jobs and that?

When I– when I had the insurance– but since I wasn’t no longer with the companies anymore? They had to, [cough] they had to remove it because I wasn’t with the company anymore. And so, I filed a couple a years ago. I filed, everything was fine. I had my insurance. But then after, now with this, uh, coronavirus thing now, it’s like, uh. It’s really hard now, you know? Just don’t know what to do anymore. But if you get sick you have to go to the emergency room.

[Annotation 9]

So then, can you tell me about a time that you went into the hospital when you didn’t have any insurance and how you felt treated? And if you felt treated any differently when you didn’t have insurance versus when you at least had insurance?

When I had insurance, I was, I was like, uh. When I had insurance, I was like the president of the United States! You know? They treated me very well. But when, uh, I didn’t have no insurance anymore, they treated me like, oh, you know. Like I was, you know, nothing. And I don’t have the insurance, so they’re gonna just have me wait now. And stuff, so. 

So then, tell me about a time that you went into the hospital without insurance and from start to finish, like, walking up to the receptionist, that– how that conversation went–

Yeah.

How long you waited.

Yeah. I walked up to the– to the lady. She did all my paperwork. She said, “Can you hand me your ID and your insurance?” I said, “Well, I’ll give my ID but I don’t have no insurance.” And she looked at me like, “Oh. Okay.” And so, then I came, “Mr. Torres, just sit down and they’re gonna call you.” 

[00:14:59]

And it been– sometimes they have you sittin’ out there with no insurance for like an hour, two hours, just waiting. Even if there wasn’t nobody there, they still have you waiting outside. And I told’m, uh, “I’m here to see a doctor.” “Oh, they’re gonna call you!” I said, “Okay.” And I sit there and I sit there. And then finally after or an hour or two, “Oh,” then they call me. “What are you here for?” And I said, “I just told her that I’m here because I have eczema and my asthma is acting up.” You know? So okay, then after they– they did what they did, or. You know, they ask you so many questions, like, “Oh,” you know. I tell’m I have diabetes. Um, I had surgery for colon cancer. I have asthma. And then they add, come on with these questions. “Are you gonna hurt yourself? Are you gonna hurt anybody?” Man. I– I, yes! When you go there, yep, that’s what they’re gonna ask. And I said, you really, and I look at them, like, “Are you really kidding me?” You know. “Oh, no, we supposed to ask you these questions.” I said, “No,” you know. And stuff. But that’s what they say, “Are you harmful to anybody, are you gonna hurt anybody, to you or yourself?” I said, “No, I’m not!” I said, you know, I said, “Can I go see a doctor now?” “We’re supposed to ask you these questions,” but. You know. I said, “Alright. That’s the policy, but I wouldn’t think it’s right for you to be asking those questions to me or anybody. Or anybody that’s here to see the doctor.”

Yeah! Did they ask you those questions before when you had insurance?

Yeah, they always ask those questions.

Yeah! Okay, so tell me– tell me what really rubs you the wrong way about being asked that. Like, what–

It makes me feel like– like down, like, why? And he keeps asking me, like, why they asking me these questions? Not to me or anybody? Or anybody else? They ask those questions. You know, it makes me feel like, wow, you know? Am I a killer, or? Or something! [laughs] That’s what, when they ask for those questions, that’s what pops into my head. “Oh man, they think I’m gonna kill somebody just because, ah, they’re gonna, uh, uh, see me, or whatever?” [laughs] It’s crazy!

Yeah! Does it make you almost feel, like, accused?

Yeah, it makes me feel accused, it makes me feel uncomfortable when they ask me those questions! I mean, I don’t mind ask– if they ask me about my health condition, but “Are you– are you feeling safe at home? Are you in danger? To harm anybody else?” I always say, “No, I’m safe at home, I’m by myself,” and stuff. 

Yeah. So, for you, it feels like, irrelevant to your care [inaudible, overlapping]

[00:18:00]

Yeah! Yeah. ‘Cause I– I asked them, “What they got to do with me,” you know, “seeing a doctor?” And, um, “getting treating?” And they said, “Oh, no, it’s the policy.” I said, “Well, that policy gotta change, because for me it– it makes me feel uncomfortable, and then you asking them to anybody else would make them feel,” you know. ‘Cause, you know, I bet they go home and be like, “Why– why did they ask me those questions like that?” You know? “I was just there to see a doctor!”

Right. And so when you complain, you say, “Okay, I think that policy can change,” how do they respond?

They respond– well, really to be honest, they didn’t responded. They said, “Just policy that you gotta go through.” I said, “Well,” you know. Unfortunately, they have to do is change that. Because it makes me feel uncomfortable, makes other people uncomfortable, too, askin’ those questions. You know.

And then, what else happened? So then you have– you fill out the questions, go through that, then what happened next?

Then after that, then they took me to the back. And then they put me on a bed and said, “Okay, well somebody gonna come see you.” I said, “Okay, I’ll be here about an hour or two, waiting.” And then he started to laugh, the guy, you know. [laughs] But it’s true! You know? So then, after an hour or two, then they come, it’s like, “Oh, whatchu here for?” And I said, “You know what I’m here for!” Because, you know, they write it down and then you can see it on the computer, because, you know, you don’t wanna see it on the computer! “Oh, you here for your asthma and for your eczema and thing.” I said, “Yeah!” And you know, they give me medication and then, “Okay, you can go!” Sign the paper and leave and then that’s it!

So how did they treat your asthma?

They treat it pretty good. Not as much as they’re supposed to without me havin’ insurance, but if I had the insurance, I would have got treated more well and more better medication that they had.

Okay, so, because you have had experience going in for asthma when you had insurance versus going in without insurance, that’s how you know the treatment is different?

Yeah.

When you have insurance?

Very different. When you have insurance, you feel better because they’ll give you the right medication and stuff like that. And you be feelin’ good, but, when you don’t have the insurance, you get treated really bad, like, you know, you’re a nobody and stuff, you know? And I always say, it doesn’t matter the color of your skin or anything. When we all get cut, we bleed red, and that links everybody, bleeds red, you know, and stuff. Doesn’t make no difference or what. That’s why I said, the doctors make no difference in treating with or without insurance!

[00:21:06]

Do you feel like you’re treated differently because of the color of your skin in a hospital or do you feel like you’re treated differently because of your insurance qualifications? Like, how do you feel judged in that?

Not because of the color of my skin or anybody else. It’s just the insurance, that’s what it is, the insurance. The insurance.

Okay. So could you say that as a complete sentence so I can use it as a soundbite or something, like. Say that, “I don’t feel that,” like, in your own words, like, that you don’t feel treated differently because of the color of your skin.

Mhm.

Um. Or your gender, but it’s because of your economic status?

Yeah, like I said, I don’t feel it’s– it’s not because of the color of my skin. It’s the insurance that makes me feel really bad because, you know, you’ve got insurance, and if you don’t have insurance, you get treated really bad and you get no, uh, treatment unless you have good insurance.

Yeah. And, do you– I’m not sure if you’re gonna remember, but do you remember, like, the treatment the, um, the type of medicine you got when you had insurance versus the type of medicine and the treatment you get without insurance for asthma? Do you remember the technical?

Yeah, because the– they used to give me, uh, better m’cation, like, it comes in a little tube that you put into a breathing treatment. But now, you know, you get that bad medication where it really don’t help you that much and stuff, you know, with my condition for asthma.

What is the medicine you get now?

They give me– they usually– when I go in, they give me a little pill, sayin’, oh! Prednisone, that’s what it is. Prednisone, and that’s, they said, “Oh, that’s for asthma.” But then they, [tsk] I don’t think it’s for asthma. I think it’s for something else. I have to look it up. But Prednisone, yeah, I think it’s like. They tell me, w– when I had– I got ec– eczema. And that’s what they givin’ me. They said, “Oh, that’s for the itch.” I said, “No, ecz–” Um. “The Prednisone’s for asthma.” And they tell me, “No, it’s for a lot of things!” “Do you– really?” I said, “Well, not that I know. All I know is just for asthma.”

So they’re giving you Prednisone for eczema?

Yeah, for like, the itching and the stuff and I was like “No, it’s, it’s–”

Did they give you a topical cream? For eczema?

Yeah they– they give me a– a cream that really not good. That when I go to the, uh, pharmacy I see the one that I want, because– but I can’t afford to buy because they’re like ten dollars, twenty dollars. Sixteen dollars. Which I can’t afford anymore. You know, where, you know, I tell the doctor, um, you know, it’s this cream that, you know, that you get. But I can’t afford it at the– at the– in the pharmacy because it’s very expensive. So, that’s–

[00:24:20]

How does the doctor respond when you say that?

They really don’t say much. They say, “Oh, well, if you had insurance, it would have been much different.” You know, and that’s really like, oh boy, you know?

How did that make you feel, when the doctor told you that?

It made me feel bad! You know, I’m not getting the better treatment like I was before, so I just don’t know what to do, you know?

And so they were giving you Prednisone for X amount that they said.

Yeah.

And then, what did they tell you they were giving you for the asthma then? Or did they just–

Really–

Not give you nothing?

[overlapping] They was– they was giving me, uh, the same thing for asthma, the Prednisone for asthma. And they gave me like, these little, uh, little tube thing that you put in with, like, a machine that helps your asthma. But now I don’t get those anymore because, like I said, and again, I don’t have insurance.

Okay. So your medicine has totally since–

[overlapping] Yes.

You don’t have insurance.

Yes. Totally changed and really different. You know, they’re not giving me the right treatment. And then, I just. I give up! You know? This government and doctors? I just don’t know what to do.

Um, can you tell me a little bit more about how, um, the questions you would get? Or, walk me through a specific scenario where you were being asked why you keep coming here so much and how that conversation went.

Well, the reason is, why am I going into the hospital so much, because of my health conditions. And seeing the doctors. And, [tsk] you know, like I said, it’s just. It’s a hospital. It’s an emergency that, you know, you gotta get treatment because you can’t be sittin’ at home suffering because they don’t wanna treat you, and you feel like you don’t wanna go into the hospital because no insurance! And they can– and that’s, you know. It’s really hard.

And so, can you walk me through, like, a specific conversation that you had with somebody and kind of go through the whole scenario, where–

It’s like– yeah. Like a month ago, I went into St. Peter’s Hospital. I went in for my eczema. And the lady said– the– the doctor came in. It was a lady. She came and she said, oh, the same thing that Robert Wood was saying. “Oh, you come here so many times.” She did this, and then she, you know, she did this on a wall and I was like, “Excuse me, why are you just doin’ that?” You know, I say, “I’m in for the itch and I’m tryin’ to tell you.” And she was like, “You’ve been here many times.” And I said, “Well, if you’re not gonna treat me, can you just release me and help me sign the paper to go home?”

[00:27:12]

“Oh, no, let me get you something,” they said. I said, “Okay, well, uncross your arms and don’t lay like that! Because, you know, it’s your job to help me!” And she was, like, “Oh, you know you don’t have insurance.” I said, “Okay, well?” “And you been here many times,” she said. So what? You know, and I’m gonna say like I said to Robert Wood. “I been here many times,” you know, “and it doesn’t matter how many times you come here at all.” This is ridiculous.

Yeah, so how did that make you feel when the doctor is saying you come here a lot? Like, how are you interpreting that? Like, what do you think she’s really implying by saying that?

She’s implying is, like, “Okay, you– you don’t have insurance, stay home!” That’s what they– that’s what they implying to me. Or anybody. You know? You don’t have insurance, the doctors, when they do that, “Just stay home and don’t come here!” ‘Cause, you know, if they’re gonna treat you, you know, they wanna get paid! It’s all about the money and insurance! And if you don’t have either, they won’t take care of you!

Right! So then, how do you feel, like?

[coughs]

How do you feel like you wish that hospitals functioned?

They should, [cough] excuse me.

Wait, hang on for a minute, let me just restart this again. Um, and action!

Well, they should, uh. The doctors should go back to school! And, uh, realize that there’s a lot of sick people that really need help with or without the insurance. And that should change! You know? They should at least help people that don’t have insurance for– for the good of God, they should help them! Just, you know, and don’t think about the money or the insurance, you know. The person needs help! You know, and stuff like that, and when a person needs help you gotta help’m, regardless! You know, insurance or no insurance, no money, no money! You know? That’s what it is to the doctors.

And so, where do you think that if– if you’re not able to pay for it, you don’t have insurance, uh. So do you feel like doctors should give some of their skills, um, as volunteers, or?

Yeah, the– the doctors should use some skills and at least help patients! Because right now, we’re going through this CO– COVID-19, you know. People are– are suffering with no insurance. They’re going to the hospital. This– they should at least do a good deed and help people! Not worrying about money or whatever!

Yeah!

Or insurance!

Did you know that a lot of hospital CEOs make three million or more a year? Did you know about that?

[00:30:00]

They make more than that!

Yeah.

With the insurance, and the– the insurance.

So do you feel like maybe some of the CEO’s salaries should go toward people who are uninsured?

I think that salaries from the CEOs should go to help the people without insurance and that really need help! Yes!

That would make a difference, yeah. I’m sure they could cover a lot of medical bills with that. [laughs]

They could cover a lot! Yeah!

Um. And then, can you tell me a little bit more– I’m curious what you’re saying about, um, that doctors should go back to school to learn that peop– some people need help without insurance. ‘Cause that’s interesting. I feel like you’re kind of saying maybe an intervention should be part of medical school that makes you learn more compassion?

That’s what I’m, that is, that’s it!

Could you talk about what you wished that they would learn in school, or like, or, um, at what level in school they should learn about that?

Yeah they– they should learn that, you know, they should teach of what people that are goin’ in to be nurses or doctors that, you know, they should help the patients and not ask so many questions, you know. And help’m, and– and give’m a good deed and– and not turn anybody away, not have nobody sitting in an office for like an hour or two, you know? And that’s what they should go back to school or they should learn something else in helping people. That’s what they should do.

[Annotation 7]

Right. So maybe even, like, compassion. Huh. Compassion or like, um, sorry, I’ve gotta change this battery and I’m gonna cut–

[00:31:36]

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[RECORDING TWO]

[00:00:00]

It’s the– it– the doctor think it’s our fault that we don’t have insurance, but it’s not our fault. It’s the people that issue it. The paperwork and– and their fault for not giving us the insurance that we need to get the proper care that we need. You know? And they should realize that instead of the doctor that’s [inaudible], you know, it’s– You know. It’s ridiculous, because I really don’t have many words to say, you know. They should, you see, if we get the proper care and the proper insurance, they should, you know, at least, okay, then they should help us, you know? With– with– to get the proper care. You know? That’s what we need, you know? It’s not, for them, they think it’s a joke that we don’t have insurance, but it’s not our fault, it’s the people that’s issuing the insurance and doing the paperwork. That’s what it is.

Yeah. Could you tell me your opinions about the insurance industry? Do you– some people would say their insurance shouldn’t even exist. That basically, everyone should have [beep] Medicare. Everyone in the US should have free Medicare from the government.

Yeah. We should all get free Medicare and free insurance! ‘Cause sometime it’s like, when the doctors prescribe a medication, we still have to pay! You know? Even though the insurance is chargin’ and not paying much, it’s comin’ out of peoples’ pockets that do have insurance, that, that don’t have insurance. It’s costing them a lot.

[Annotation 10]

Yeah. Do you feel like there’s any way to improve the insurance industry or do you think that we should just get rid of it completely?

I think they should get rid of it completely because it’s, like, a real hassle. Because when your insurance expire, you know, you’re like– you do the same paperwork that you want to get your insurance. And then, when they’re ready, it’s just like the doctor, when they’re ready, they wanna see you, it’s like when you do the paperwork. Then it’s like, “Okay, we’re gonna decide whether we can wait,” or whatever. You know, for the insurance. So they decide whether we get the insurance or not. The doctor, proper care that, you know, they want, or we want. You know. 

So it sounds like, yeah. It just sounds like everyone else is making decisions for you. You don’t have much choice in this situation.

Right. I do not have much choice, you know. With the people that don’t have insurance, gotta take what they– what they get. People with insurance, they get pretty, really good medications and stuff. 

Can you tell me about a time that you did experience really compassionate care? What was that like?

[00:02:55]

Really bad?

No. Really compassionate, like, good care. Like.

A good care, or?

[overlapping] A time that you actually were treated well?

[overlapping] Oh, no, I’m tryin’ to know what it is, I really have bad experience and good experience. Well. [coughs] I had, um. One doctor, she was really, really nice to me. She did a lot of research for me while I was in emergency? But then, her name was Dr. Meyers. And I will never forget her because she gave me the right medication while I was there. She gave me for my skin that was burning. She gave me injection for everything. She gave me Benadryl for the itching, injection and everything and she put me to the right, uh, dermatologist, so then I– when [ding] I– when I went there, I never got to see her anymore so it’s like, you know. Yeah. 

Was that when you had insurance, or didn’t you?

No, I didn’t have insurance.

No, no. What hospital?

That Robert Wood. Her name was Dr. Meyers. And I never got to see her no more. She gave me the medications and stuff.

So then, how would you say, like, what percentage would you estimate that you get good care with insurance versus bad care? How does that scale balance?

Wow. Hmm. It balance– Bad medication is really low, and you get good medication is really high, so.

But how many times? Basically, you saw Dr. Meyers how many times?

I saw her one time.

And then how many times have you seen doctors that haven’t been able to help you?

Many times. I’d say about, about fifteen, twenty times. And stuff.

Okay. So maybe you could just say that, like, maybe you could just say that, you know, “I’ve been treated really well maybe one out of fifteen times.”

And also, uh. It’s, uh, excuse me. [pause] There’s a dermatologist in Highland Park that’s right across the bridge. I went there, you know, I didn’t have much money. To see the man and have insurance. So, I had to see the dermatologist lady, I had to pay 100 dollars out of my pocket. And I’m, like, really mad. Really, really mad. You know, took my shirt off, she just looked at me, she just sat down on the computer, and she said, “Oh, well, I’m gonna order you medication.” She didn’t give me anything there! And then her assistant came with this full of bag of medication and, uh, to take a bath and shower. That didn’t help. And I said, “Well, can you give me a shot? You can, you can look in the computer because there’s another, uh, medication, like, for eczema like shots and pills.” But she didn’t bother lookin’ it up. She just wanted the money. So, after that, never got– I never went back because I felt like I wasn’t treated right.

[00:06:01]

And the medications and the little things that it– when you take a shower, it’s like a– that you take a shower with. I couldn’t take it no more because it was like hurting my skin and burning with those. And I called them, “Well, you’re gonna have to come back,” and I said, “Well, I can’t afford to pay 100 dollars for a visit because that’s too much.” You know? And, basically, really, my mother was helping me with that, and I was like, to my mom, “That’s too much! 100 dollars.” “No, ‘cause they’re gonna treat you!” I said, “No, they’re gonna– with no insurance.” And she was like “Yeah,” she, my mother was sayin’, “you know, you don’t have insurance, no, nobody wants to treat you, not even a dermatologist.” Yeah.

So when you said to the dermatologist, “I can’t come back because I can’t afford it,” what is– what is her response to that?

She was like, “Well, whenever I get more money or whatever, or insurance,” you know, “come back.” I said, “Okay”, you know. But, then after that I didn’t go back because, you know, every time I see the dermatologist, it’s gonna be 100 dollars and I can’t afford 100 dollars. Or, if my mom lended me 100 dollars you know that’s– that’s too much. 

[Annotation 4]

Yeah, especially when they’re just, uh, experimenting and things don’t work, and so then you–

[overlapping, inaudible]

[overlapping] have to pay for them to experiment.

And then when they come in, I take my shirt off, and she said “Oh yeah, it is eczema.” And I said, “Well, how long is it gonna take to go away?” And she said, “About two, three weeks. And then, then it’ll go away.” I still have it from like, here up.

Even today?

Yeah! I still have it. It’s on my legs, everywhere!

What’s your next plan with your eczema? 

To be honest? I– I really don’t know. Just don’t know.

How does it feel to have that amount of eczema on your body right now? Are you in pain?

It hurts. Itches. It burns. You know, and when it happens so severe, I go to the hospital. And if they do, they don’t give me the proper care like I was saying before is they give you a– a Benadryl pill and then they send me home. That’s it. It’s like the dermatology. I paid them 100 dollars and she didn’t even bother to, she came in, she did a little, she sat on her computer, “Oh, I’m gonna order you this.” I said, “You can’t order because I don’t have any money for it.” And she gave me some cream and stuff but that didn’t work. Made my skin get a little worser. And I said, “Can you give me some?” She tells me, she don’t have anything there. I said, “Well, you could order and have me come back. And,” you know, “and I can take it!” There! And that’s it, but I never went back after that first visit.

Um. I just wanna look at my questions to see. [papers flipping]

[00:09:04]

Wow. Yeah, so it’s,– it’s also interesting because sounds like you’re having to problem solve for the doctors?

Yes.

Too? And you’re having to be creative for the doctors, but the doctors are just rigid in what they’re thinking.

Yeah! What they think and then that’s it. Like I said, they care for insurance and money

Right.

Dermatologists, doctors. Yeah! That’s all they care for.

Okay, so here my other question, because I feel like this is a repeated thing that happens again and again, right? When you don’t have insurance, it sounds like this happens m– the majority, like 90% of the time. So do you feel like there’s just bad doctors? Like, the doctors are just bad, or do you feel the hospital system as a whole is creating an atmosphere where this can kind of happen?

Yeah, it’s– it’s the system. You know. I don’t blame the doctors and that because, you know. Yeah. That’s how it is, and they should change the system and they should change the everything, you know? So. That’s what I feel. And I feel really bad that sometimes, uh, I don’t even wanna go to the hospital anymore because, you know, I’m getting tired. You know, and I’m– I’m not getting the right treatment.

Yeah. Yeah! I was gonna ask you that, too. Um. Has this experience caused you to avoid going to hospitals?

Yes, avoid, yeah. It really does.

And before these bad experiences– so basically, before you didn’t have insurance, how did you feel about hospitals before all of this started happening? What was your–

When I had the insurance and everything, I was feeling, “Oh, okay!” You know, say, “I’ll get a good treatment, a lot of people get a good treatment.” But when I have– when I lost my insurance, then it’s like, “Oh, now I know what everybody goin’ through, because I’m going through the same thing, with no insurance or nothing, and getting bad experience from doctors and dermatologists.” You know? And, they should help people. [church bell tolls] It’s not for the insurance.

Yeah, it’s interesting ‘cause it’s like, when you have the great insurance from your job, you kind of like, you have this idea that everybody’s getting treated the same.

Yeah.

And so it’s like, you have to be on the other side to really understand what other people go through.

Yeah!

Um, did you– did you trust hospitals in the past?

Yes. I really did. [coughs] But now I really don’t.

Could you say that all in a sentence so that I can use it? Like, “I used to trust–”

Yeah, I used to, I used to trust, uh, hospital and the system because I think they’re doin’ a really good thing. But now I don’t trust hospitals anymore because with the insurance, and they treat you really bad, you know, now. So, now I’m just scared to go to the hospitals, you know? If, in the hospitals, I don’t go anymore. Sometimes I find a tray– a way to treat my asthma and my eczema and stuff myself. You know, and stuff. So.

[00:12:22]

Oh, wow. So, you treat this yourself, so you do, like, your own remedies? For this?

Um. I don’t do my own remedies. What it is, is, you know. Um. My mom knows that I don’t go to the hospitals anymore. Sometime she try to help me, like, over the counter medications for my asthma and, um, my eczema where she try– she helps me and give me money to buy, to medicate like, over the counter or, you know. As, asthma and eczema and stuff, so. They’re pretty, you know. They’re a little high in the medication, but, it’s the cream and the inhalers and stuff, so. I try to get those as much as I can and try to avoid going into the hospital because I don’t– when I go to the hospitals, I don’t get treated right. I get treated poorly.

What about your diabetes? How do you manage that?

Uh. I try, my mom, uh, uses the same metformin that I use, so she let me, she get a quantity because she has good insurance. So she get a good quantity and she gives me a couple whenever I need it, so. Yeah. [pause]

Wow. That’s like, what you had to do.

Yeah. I don’t even wanna go to the hospitals anymore. It’s really hard. I mean, not for me, but everybody else. [shuffling]

Let me see if there’s anything else [inaudible]. Um. So then, I guess. Yeah, I think I asked all these. Um. Could you just tell me, I don’t know, just in general, like, how do you feel your health is doing these days and what, what you’re doing for yourself to try to stay, like, mentally healthy through all of this?

Well, you know, well. Like– like I said, I treated– I treat my own self with my medication that– from the store. You know, I do my little exercise, you know. Eat right. You know, I try to do a lot of things that the doctors and derms supposed to help me with. And stuff. So, and for that, I use it my own self, so. You know, pretty good. I’ve been feelin’ pretty good ever since I been treating my eczema and stuff? It’s not that itching or whatever because I have the cream and I have the inhaler, so. I feel pretty good for myself.

[00:15:00]

And you’re taking care of yourself?

Yes, I’m taking care of myself.

And do you have other help? Um, like do you have friendships that you can rely on? Things like that.

No, no. I just. Basically, I stay to myself. You know, people, my mom. So, basically, but I’m feeling pretty good since I haven’t been into the hospital in a while.

Well, anything that you would like? [chuckles] Other people to know about hospitals who might just have insurance and think that they’re– who really like the current system?

Yeah! People with the insurance, they livin’ pretty good because you get good medication, you get the good care and everything. But, and if, uh, you don’t have no medication, no, um, insurance, you get treated poorly or badly. 

Yeah, so you just would like them to understand that that’s real?

[overlapping] Yeah, they, the doctors and insurance should understand that regardless of, you, [coughs] excuse me. If your paperwork is still processing, you know, they should give you some kind of temporarily, um, insurance. Until the– the other one goes through. But they don’t, you know. It’s a system where it has to be changed somewhere, you know. Somebody has to find the right way to change the system. Because if you, uh, fill out insurance for your new health insurance, meanwhile it’s processing. They’ll say, “Okay, well, we’re gonna send you a new, uh, temporary card until this one gets processed.” But they don’t do anything like that. To be honest, they really don’t care. They really don’t care.

[Annotation 5]

What do you think, um, are there any other suggestions you have for changing the whole system?

[inhale] I– I wish, I don’t know. Somebody, somehow should change the system. Somebody or somehow should change it. 

Yeah, like there’s, like, one clear kind of answer that stands out to me is like, to take away the–the money kind of, um. The– the ability for greed to run a hospital? You know, to cap the payment that doctors and CEOs can make.

Yeah!

And to–

The CEOs and the doctors, the nurses and insurance and everybody. They’re making all this money. And they can’t get, they can’t help not even one person or people with– without insurance. And they should help somebody! Yeah. That’s what they should do. And just, they should give free healthcare for everybody! They should give free healthcare to people that need it, people that have insurance, that, you know, they got that good insurance! But free healthcare for everybody! They should do! Even the doctors!

[overlapping] Yeah, you could– yeah, I think that would [ding] change everything.

Yeah, it would change everything!

[00:18:03]

Yeah, even the doctors, right?

Yeah! Everything! And everyone. [laughs] Yeah. That’s what I think. They should, I mean, you know. Not think, they should do it! Permanently help them! You know?

Cool! I– I agree. [shuffling] Okay. I’m turning this off now.

[00:18:27]

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