LeDerick Horne grew up in Franklin Township and talks about his high school experience as a student with learning disabilities. He recalls the life changing experiences he had during his college career. LeDerick is a poet and an author and has co-written the book Empowering Students with Hidden Disabilities: A Path to Pride and Success.
“Um, I really believe that the– the real work gets done when you get people with disabilities who you arm with the tools to be able to change the world.”
ANNOTATIONS
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Daniel Swern
New Brunswick, New Jersey
August 4, 2021
Transcription by Ryan Neely
Annotations by Hannah M’Lynn
0:00:00.0
OK, this is Dan Swern, uh, it’s 3 o’ clock on Wednesday, August 4th, 2021. Uh, we’re at coLAB Arts at 9 Bayard Street. Uh, and I’m here interviewing–
LeDerick Horne
Um, LeDerick, thank you so much for making the time to be here.
Great to be here, Dan.
Uh, whenever you’re ready, please feel free to start from the beginning.
Ok, um, so I was, um, born here in New Brunswick in the afternoon of, uh, September 30th 1977. And, um, my mother is Brenda Lewis, now Brenda Lewis, who is from Houston, Texas. My father is, uh, Raymond Horne and, uh, he was born in Glenwood, Georgia, which is in Wheeler County down in southern Georgia about two hours outside of, uh, both Savannah and, uh, Atlanta. Um, and they met each other in, uh, New Orleans, where they were both attending college at the Historically Black College, Dillard University. Um, they met each other back then and, uh, you know, dated and broke up and, and then, uh, and then got back together again and they were, uh, married for a while and had me. And, um, my father went down to, uh, college to, uh, to be an educator, to– to learn to be an educator. He was, uh, a track and cross-country star at Franklin High School. Uh, graduated class of nineteen ninety– 1966. Uh, he was a part of the first graduating class at Franklin High School. Uh, he’s told– I remember him telling me stories about how, um, they picked the school colors. They picked the mascot, they decided, “yeah, we want to be warriors,” right and so– Um, his class figured all that out. He run– won the first cross-country race for Franklin High School because he was a part of that first class. Um, and, um, yeah and he decided, you know, that what he really wanted to do is be a gym teacher, wanted to be a physical education teacher. So he went down to Dillard on a partial athletic scholarship and, um, you know, and he passed classes and was thinking about staying in New Orleans, cause apparently that was the best time of his life. But, um, the pay was dramatically different here in New Jersey for a teacher, so he came back up and um, yeah.
And then they– they got together and, um, uh, my mother– my mother’s people are originally from Louisiana, and out of Creoles. And, um, she’s one of nine siblings. And, uh, but they– they– they all grew up in Houston, um, and so, uh, after they started, my mother and father got back together. Um, and got married, it was determined they were gonna relocate here in New Jersey. And so, um, yeah, dad was from– from Franklin and so New Jersey became the site of where I grew up.
0:03:08.1
Um, apparently there was a pretty bad snowstorm in the, uh, fall of ’77. My mother tells a story about them taking me home from the hospital, from St. Peter’s and, um, us getting out of the car and my father having me and dropping me. Dropping me [laughs] before I got into the house. But, uh, you know, she’s like, “Honey, what are you doing?” But I was, like, all bundled up, you know, cause it was, like, super cold and he dropped me into a snowdrift. Uh, and, uh, so she said, yeah, she dug me out and I was just, like, chilling in there, I might even still been asleep. Um, yeah, so I grew up in Franklin and I grew up on the Alex Place, which is a dead end street in Franklin Township. I still live on Alex Place. Back in 2007 I bought the biggest house on the block and renovated it, that’s where I live. Um, uh, yeah, so– this is a weird experience, just keep going? [laughs] Okay. [pause]
So my father, um, my father loved cross-country and he really enjoyed being a teacher. Um, but he was a legendary cross-country coach. I can’t tell you, and I probably should know his full record, but he was inducted into the Franklin– the Franklin High School athletic hall of fame. Um, he passed, my father passed away last year, in 2020. Um, but before– before that, uh, he had a stroke, uh, back in 2008. Um, prior to the stroke he was inducted. I think it was a part of the first group of people put into that hall of fame. Um, cause, he, yeah, he just, he– he– he was incredible, right.
0:05:16.1
Um, uh, my father, I guess when I was two years old, had a brain tumor. Um, and he had already been kicking ass as a coach and winning, um, prior to that, um, and so he ended up having to quit and go through chemo, and he tells a story about being in, um, just, uh, like a fog from going to chemotherapy, um, and kind of being out of it. And he said that at one point, the voice of God spoke to him and said, “When this is over, coach the girls. Coach the girls.” And so [laughs], and so, [laughs], he, uh, he got out of the hospital, came, got back to work. You know, started– started, um, started back teaching and like miraculously this head girls cross-country coach position opened up and he had always coached boys, and so he took it on and it was like, “You know, I’m just gonna take it easy. I’m gonna be, you know, just, like, kind of get started,” but, like, I think he had it in, like, he didn’t know how to quit. Um, and I think they were like champions their first year, you know. Um, like at least County and– and, um, you know, right now the Olympics are on. And there’s, uh, one of the guys, he used to run for my father, was this guy, Kevin Lyles, and Lyles’ son just won an Olympic medal, um, uh, yeah. I– I, just, I– I remember being a little and, like, going to practice with my father. Um, and, uh, you know, running with all these, like, older folks, and even then I could– I could run.
[Editor’s Note: Noah Lyles won an Olympic Bronze medal in the 200m at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.]
Um, yeah, so, uh, my mother worked, uh, I think a few, like, odd and end type of jobs when, uh, when she first got up here and, um, but eventually settled in on working at Rutgers University. Um, and she got into the HR department.
0:07:32.7
Uh, she didn’t finish her degree at Dillard, so she also went to night school, and I think she kind of had an idea shortly after I was born that, like, the marriage wasn’t going to work and so, uh, she was really clear like, “I have to be self sufficient.” Um, and so she worked at Rutgers University, she was a, um, a benefit specialist. So, if you were a brand new employee, you would see my mother or one of the people that she managed to figure out your benefits package. Um, she worked for Rutgers University for twenty-six years. Um, and so I spent a– a– I spent time on campus when I was a kid. Like, I remember probably being a teenager, and her getting me gigs to work the football games. Like, I don’t know, the guy, like, waving when you had to fill in the parking lot, um, or maybe I was, like, picking up trash, I don’t remember. But it was like, come out and you make twenty bucks a day, you know, for a few hours and I was like, “Hell yeah, I’ll do that.” Um, so, uh, and then as I got older, and once I would drive her, I remember, when I could drive, I remember just dropping in to see my mother every so often on campus. Um, yeah that was, yeah. It was good times. Good times.
Um, so, um, I think one of the– the more distinguishing experiences in my life that has led me to the work I do now, and I’m a– I’m an advocate for people with disabilities. I’m also a writer of, co-author of the book Empowering Students with Hidden Disabilities: A Path to Pride and Success that was published by Brooks Publishing Company. Uh, and I’ve released two collections of my own poetry, um, and that– what led me to that was that, like, early on in my education it was clear that I, uh, couldn’t perform academically as well as other students and so, uh, got, uh, my parents, my– my father, for being a graduate of Franklin High School, and being a teacher at Franklin High School, did not believe in the quality of education in Franklin Township. And so, uh, they sent me to St. Peters here in New Brunswick. And so, Kindergarten, no problem. First grade I struggled, I had to do the first grade twice. Um, and as we speak now, St. Peters is a hole in the ground, and I’m assuming either Rutgers University or Robert Wood Johnson are going to take over that lot.
0:10:03.2
Um, uh, yeah, but, uh, after that first, that second time in the first grade, the school basically turned to my parents and said, “Whatever’s going on with him, um, you should send him back to district, cause we don’t have what he needs here.” And, uh, so they sent me back to Franklin Township, and I did a year, second grade, and then by the time I got to third, um, I had a teacher who, uh, recommended me getting evaluated for, uh, to determine if I had a disability, a learning disability. And the first label I was given was that I was neurologically impaired after all the– the– the psych evaluations and neuro-psych work was done. Um, which was a fairly common label given to particularly black boys in the state of New Jersey at that time. Um, and that eventually landed me into a self-contained special education classroom. Uh, at, uh, Hillcrest School. Uh, interesting story was that, um, I was in the third grade when I was first diagnosed and, uh, got to, I guess, the middle of the school, winter break, um, before they said the best thing for me was for me to be in special ed, and so the program they wanted to put me in began at the following school, which was Hillcrest. And so, in the middle of my third grade year,, they brought me up to a higher– a higher school and so, uh, everybody thought that I was, uh, so smart that I was just skipping a grade and, and being able to just finish third grade early and go on up to Hillcrest, um, but I spent, uh, three and a half years, uh, with an amazing educator, great teacher, Ms. Yates, Ms. Priscilla Yates. Um, and her paraprofessional or teacher’s aide, Ms. Nortia. Um, and in their classroom I never– I don’t think I ever got on grade level.
0:12:05.2
I’m– I’m not like an average dude, right? So I either am, like, terribly below average or incredibly superior, in– in one aspect of, uh, I guess how you can gauge a person or another. And so, I don’t think I was ever on, like, grade level with reading or spelling or math or any of that stuff. Um, but I learned the alphabet when I was, uh, in Ms. Yates’ class and prior to that, when I was 9 years old, I didn’t know– didn’t know the alphabet, um, until I was 9 in the third grade. Um, and I remember a lot of flash cards, so that I could, uh, learn math, um, and I remember some of those, some of the time tables, the ones that had more, sort of like, rhythm and a better pneumonic, um, but, not all of it. Not all of it. Um, Ms. Yates also really was a champion for me, so she did push for me to try to go into, uh, you know, what– what we would call regular education classes with other students and not being just in the sort of segregated, separate setting, uh, that was her class. Um, and I tried that in a few different instances but, uh, it didn’t always work out, or really worked out. Um, yeah, so I was in special ed throughout my entire time in school through middle school, uh, throughout high school, in special education, on an IEP, and I say “in” because at the time special ed was still very much a place that they sent you and not services that you got to take advantage of. And, unfortunately, even here within, uh, the state of New Jersey, we’re ranked very, very low in, um, being able to provide inclusive education for young people. So we still do a lot of segregating, um, I heard a stat recently that we were the 6th most racially segregated state in America. Um, and we’re I think, maybe the second most segregated as far as, um, student placement. We– we spend a lot of money building separate schools for kids, um, or putting them in– in, you know, in sort of separate classes, in separate parts of the building. Um, and so, that– that was the system that I came up in and it left me with, uh, a lot of self-esteem issues. Uh, just feeling inferior.
[Editor’s Note: An IEP stands for an Individualized Education Program. This program is tailored to each individual child to help them achieve specific goals throughout the school year.]
0:14:35.5
Um, got to be– got to be, uh, 17 years old, a year, you know, like, in my junior year facing graduation, just terrified and decided that– and didn’t decide but, like, it just didn’t seem like I was gonna be able to be an adult. Right? Like, I didn’t think that I was gonna be able to graduate. Um, and I spent so many years in special ed with these other, with other kids who some were just, like, so brilliant, so talented, you know, like, I know that I am a poet now, uh, really for, maybe three factors. One is I think I just– I enjoy language. Um, my father also had an amazing record collection that I inherited, and so I grew up listening to, like, incredible singer-songwriters, folk music, to doo-wop, to that sort of song structure. Um, at one point I remember, like, taking my pop’s, uh, tape that he had of Hotel California, um, and I just, it’s like, really, really good music. And I just, almost on a biological level, would just react to any sort of lyrics or dialogue that was, that was compelling, um, and particularly just the structure of a story. Um, and I also, like, I remember, uh, Alex Place was like this little, um, island. Uh, as many dead-end streets are. And my father was very hard just to keep my ass on Alex Place, to not go around the neighborhood. Um, and so, uh, we had the projects, which was Parkside, which was two blocks over, a housing project. Um, and so he was like, “Don’t go to Parkside.”
I remember one of the kids from the neighborhood stole my bike once, and I [laughs] Maybe this didn’t happen, maybe it was just a damn dream. You know, and, like, how powerful dreams are when you’re a kid but, like, I had this vision of leaving my house as the kid was, like, had just gotten the bike off of, like, the chain that we, you know, had outside of the house. Um, but yeah, um, I remember every summer my father would take us to the movies. Uh, and particularly after, like, the– my parents got divorced when I was 12. Um, we spent, like, all summer long when– when he was our primary parent when he had primary visitation, uh, in the movie theaters. But like, when I was real little, I remember, like, going to a movie, you know, and if it was like Indiana Jones, I would come home and we had a swing set in our back yard and there was a fence.
0:17:25.9
And there were kids that lived in the house on the other side of the fence and it was like they never went to the movies. And so, um, I’d get on that swing and it was like, I enjoyed it, you know, like, sitting on the swing and telling them scene for scene, you know, like, “Yeah, man, they stole this– this little artifact and then there was a boulder and it’s just rolling,” and, like, how to build suspense and– and it just felt like I was out there for hours telling the stories. Um, it was Omar and Clarence, Omar and Clarence. Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah Omar and Clarence they were like, they just like, like regular black guys. And then they had a brother who might’ve been, like, a half brother, who looked like he might’ve been, like, kinda white or, I– I don’t know. He was, like, super light skin and, like, straight kinda hair. Um, and I think their– they lived with their grandmother, um, yeah. And, uh, yeah. I think both Omar and Clarence did time in– in– in jail. Um, and apparently they were like, they– I think they did pretty good when they were on the streets, cause, uh, this dude I knew who was a– who used to help me, uh, with some of my, um, real estate stuff. He was, like, someone I could to if I needed something painted or moved or what have you, he was also a junkie. Um, and he was, like, yo, I remember who it was, either Omar or Clarence, he was like, “Yeah, they’re doin’ it man.” They would, like, be around the neighborhood in BMWs and, um, yeah, but I– I– I– I’m hoping that, uh, they’re not, they’re not involved in any of that anymore. Um. But, yeah, every so often I’ll across– it’s been a long time, and it’s– it’s like, there’s always still that connection, you know, from when we were kids. Yeah. Um, [pause]. Yeah, so, so, yeah, it was, I think it was, uh, you know, it was the–my father’s influence and, like, um, music and then, you know, making sure that I spent a lot of time in movie theaters, um.
0:19:39.4
And then I think that maybe the third factor that was very strong was just that in special ed there were so many black boys. And, at that time, during the, uh, during the mid to late 80s into the 90s, like, everybody wanted to be an MC. Um, and so there were– there were, like, maybe two or three young men that were, like, just remarkable, that I remember growing up with. Um, and they were always, uh, encouraging me to jump into, like, a freestyle and, um, you know, and I have a handful of memories of, you know, someone with a box that just had a instrumental tape and us, you know, kinda trying to go– they– these guys were amazing, I– I just, I couldn’t do it. I’d get a line or two off and then just get lost, you know. Um, uh, yeah, so like, Kaifon, my boy Kaifon, Kaifon the Jade Emperor. Um, and K was like very much plugged into the nation of Islam and, um, Dr. York’s organization that, that was pretty active in this area during that time. Um– um, they were like black– black– black Israelites or something like that. And, um, uh, yeah, probably the most successful group of MC’s to come out of that organization, um, I mean there were a few, right. So, like, probably the biggest one is like MF Dude, alright? Um, so, when he started out with his brother, that’s what they were, they were involved in– Um, uh, but then Sciences of Life and Little Sci, uh, from here. Um, I guess Little Sci is from New Brunswick or at least the area. Um, but, like, they were very much connected to– to that, to that organization, that way of thinking. Um, but yeah, Kaifon was just, he was very, very smart and very, very talented and just did a lot to really, um, I don’t know, he was a good friend.
0:21:49.4
And then, I just, I remember, like, respecting the hell out of him as an artist. Um, and during my childhood I could draw, so I could– I could paint and I could draw, but primarily I was a draftsman. Um, and, uh, and like I remember, I remember like loving the JC Penny’s Christmas catalogue, right? That fucking thing would show up at my house and it was like, my grandmother always had and I spent a lot of time with my grandparents. Um, but I just remember it being, like, three inches thick, glossy pages throughout, you know. Um, and I would flip and just go to the toy section and that was like maybe, I don’t know, ten pages, I don’t know how, what it was, but it just felt very vast. And, um, this was at time when The Transformers had just come out and, like, I knew better than to ask, I had a whole lot of, like, my– my, I had, like, way too much stuff. My parents, like, they gave me a lot of things, um, but, there was no way I was gonna get all the Transformers that I wanted, and so, I remember really, like, really clearly that in the catalogue there was like a picture of the Transformer and it was, like, the robot, and then it was, like, the vehicle next to it, right? So you could see, like, “Oh, it can change,” right?
0:23:08.1
And I would take, um, paper, right, just like regular notebook line paper and through folding and taping and creating boxes and connecting those with, like, hinges that I had created and this, that, and the other, I would make a paper version of all the Transformers, right, that I could then unfold and tuck and this, that, and the other, and it would be the robot. Or then come back together and it would be the car. And I had a box full of these things and, you know, you drawing, you know, if there were wheels you draw the rims or the face of the robot and all that kind of stuff. Um, and this is, like, it was also, like, me clearly doing the things that, like, dyslexics are really good. Like, spatial relations, um, you know, being able to, like, part of the IQ test when you get tested for whether or not you have a learning disability, they do things like rotating objects and asking you, like, if you can only see one side, what is the– predicting what was on the other side, and, and I could always do that stuff very well. The last time I took one of those tests, I– I scored in the, like, the highest you can in spatial relations. Um, yeah, so, uh, I got to, to junior year of, uh, of high school and just got tired of feeling like I was less than or, uh, you know, and then being just afraid about what was going to happen to me when I got to got out of high school, um, because no one painted a path for anyone who was in special ed at that time that seemed like something that I wanted to be a part of, right? Like I was– I was clear that, um, if I wanted to get involved in, like, criminal activity I could’ve done that, and that was, like, one of the interesting things about Franklin Township too.
0:24:03.5
And I even remember, like, I– I have a, like, the– a memory of an educator even saying, like, “You can do whatever you want here, right? Like, if you want to be involved in gangs, there’s that. You want to go to Princeton? You can go to Princeton. Right? It just, like, depends on who you want to be around and what you want to be involved in.” Um, but I didn’t think that– that people like me, you know, like, I was in high school and I– I couldn’t a– a grammatically correct sentence and, um, and I– I had just been in all these, they called them basic classes, but that was just like, the– the coding on schedule to say that were all full of kids who weren’t special ed. Um, so I didn’t think I could go college, and so there was this, uh, this cognitive dissonance that I was wrestling with, um, that really just came to a head when I was a junior, and I had to sort of quit everything that I was involved in, um. Partially because, like, I was going through an emotional breakdown, I could feel that.
0:26:04.9
Um, but I had, I was fortunate that, uh, I also could recognize that this was, like, an opportunity for me to, like, rebuild myself and I think that only came about because I had had enough experiences of being celebrated as, like, a visual artist cause I could draw when I was a kid. So I was like, “Yo, I’m not– I got, like, I can do something, right? Like, there’s something that I can do.” Um, and then I had been running track and cross-country, and, uh, varsity letter as a freshmen and captain of the cross-country team as a sophomore and so, uh, I just, I had a bank, enough of a bank of, um, positive experiences that I think it helped me carry, carry through this negative point of my life. Um, and I– and yeah, so I– I did a lot soul searching for a winter, um, I probably should’ve seen a therapist, and actually, when I was first diagnosed, that was one of the recommendations that the child study had made, uh, in my documentation is that I would probably need to see a counselor to help me deal with the discrepancy between my, uh, potential and my– my actual performance in school. Um, but that never happened, and– and, but again, I was very fortunate that I was able to sort of gut through this experience and re-examine who I was as a human being and come up with some sort of possibility for a future that I could be proud of, and so I– it took me an entire winter, uh, of not doing anything except spending as much time as I could in our high school library. Um, and I had these two great librarians whose names I don’t remember, but I remember it was a man and a woman and the lady– the lady, the– the lady librarian, she was my librarian even when I was in elementary school, right. Like, and she gone all the way up, um, and this was also, like, I graduated in high school in ’96, so this was like the start of the new, like, um, like the new wave, the– the, like, self improvement, Deepak Chopra, right? It was like a lot of that kind of stuff going on. Um, and yeah, so I just, I– I– I don’t know, I– I– I– I could spend a long, long time talking about all the books that I read during that time or tried to read. And all the different kinds of philosophies that I explored.
0:28:31.7
Um, but the– the real key thing was that I was just like, “Fuck it, I’m gonna try to go to college. Like, I don’t– I don’t know how that works, but I’m gonna try to go to college.” And, um, when you’re in special ed they give you an I– and they call it an IEPT: Individualized Education Program Team. And that– that IEP process and the document is something that is, um, uh, mandated by federal law. It falls under the Individuals and Disability Education Act, which in its original iteration was the– the actual law that created special education back in 1975. Um, uh, so that IEP Team when I started really being, like, clear, like, “I’m going to college, right. Like, that’s what’s gonna happen.” Um, I was fortunate, my father had retired, he was forced to retire from, uh, coaching and teaching, um, because of, like, complications related to, uh, his cancer and his brain tumor, and, you know, he was like, there– there’s a– there’s a brain– brain doctors they have this saying that, “Once you touch the brain, never the same.” And so, he had a pretty good-sized tumor on his brain, and when that was removed, uh, he– and he just– he just started acting different, right. Like, he became a hoarder, um, and I don’t know, he was also kind of like a high school athletic coach from the ‘70s so he grew up at a time where he could literally kick somebody in the ass to tell them to go faster and that was okay, right? Like, he’s– he’s told me, like, and– and the– the folks that ran for him love him, right? Like, love him, love him, love him. I had no memories of my father as a child, like, I remember being in the movies, I don’t remember him taking me to the movies, right? Um, my memories of my, of my dad, I have a hand– I guess I have a handful, right? Like, I remember him taking us to Seaside Heights, that was every summer, we’d go to Seaside. And, um, you know, there were– there were like a handful of things like that.
[Editor’s Note: The Individuals with Disability Education Act, enacted in 1975, protects children who have any number of a variety of disabilities, which may range from moderate to severe. Some of these disabilities include autism, learning disabilities such as dyslexia, and speech or language impairments. It is estimated that 13% of all students have some sort disability that affects their ability to learn or how they learn.]
0:30:49.4
But when he– when I really started building memories with– with him was when I decided I was gonna run track in middle school. So it was Mr. Wade’s track club, Mr. Wade was the presi– the, uh, principle of Sampson G. Smith school at the time, and he ran our track club and it’s part of the reason why, like, Franklin Township has such a strong– strong, uh, record of producing amazing runners. I would say athletes in general because it’s kind of like the grooming that happens from very young ages, and Mr. Wade’s track club was a big part of that. Um, but yeah, so, um, yeah, I– I remember just telling that team, like, “I’m gonna go to college.” And as I– as I’m thinking about it now, I actually think that, um, I initially was gonna try to go to a historically black college and the IEP Team had really recommended that I go to, uh, Middlesex County College because they had a program specifically designed to support students with learning disabilities. And my father who had, who had retired, um, uh, you know, was asked to retire, he– he spent just, like, way too much time at the high school. He would just, like, show the fuck up, um, and, you know, he’s like, “I’m just checking on my son.” And it was like, “Yeah, Mr. Horne, come on, come on in.” Um, but he– he started going to those IEP Meetings, right? And so, research around, uh, uh, people with disabilities who are able to have really positive post-secondary outcomes, um, says that, you know, it’s– it’s like a– a– one of the key things is– is having, uh, parent involvement at IEP meetings, but really critically are those last few IEP meetings. Junior year and senior year because they’re where decisions are being made around transition.
0:32:32.5
And so, you know, my father didn’t know any of this stuff, and he wasn’t any– any, like, remarkable advocate, but he was there, and I remember him being there when I was, like, coming up with this idea that I was gonna go to college. Which, again, seemed far-fetched to me, probably seemed natural to him. Like, he had gone to college, why not my son going to college? Um, uh, and he was also again someone who just, like, I think believed in me. And, um, uh, so yeah, so I ended up deciding I was gonna go to Middlesex and was fortunate that was a part of a great support program: Project Connections. Which was grant funded, um, it’s no longer in existence now, uh, they– they lost a grant just a few years ago, but it had– it had been in existence for a long time, um, for, I want to say, a couple decades. Um, and it was one of the best programs probably in the country to support students with learning disabilities. Um, and this was, like, Middlesex County College which I’m certain at the time was in, like, top five or top ten Associate granting institutions in America. Um, uh, yeah so this program that I– I got a part of, um, I almost was not accepted because, um, there was an interview process, there were a handful of seats, so this wasn’t just like standard Americans with Disability Act compliance. Like, every school that takes public funds is required by federal law to just have someone on campus supporting, um, kids with disabilities. This was, like, a step above that, where they had tutoring services and, um, you know, and– and, you had, like, counselors, and an adaptive technology lab and just, like, all kinds of stuff.
0:34:30.0
Um, and so they only took a handful of people every year and they were looking for evidence in your transcript that you could perform in a classroom with everybody else. And so folks who had more experience in mainstream classes, I’m assuming, were given more preference to be a part of this program. Cause they could show they could do the work that everybody else could do. I did not have that experience. I had two experiences in high school that showed up on my transcript. I had, like, I had a history class that I’d taken, um, and then I can’t remember this guy’s name, but he was a great history teacher. He was just, like, a kind human being. Um, and there’s this, like, there was this practice that we– we used to call “Mainstreaming” where they would, like, pull you out of special ed and just drop you in a regular class with everybody else. And– and it was– it would often happen, like, mid-year and so you would just show up in this class, you didn’t know nobody, you didn’t know this teacher, and they were like, you know, like, “We think you’re good enough to try, you know, to try, um, you know, going to a science class with everybody else.” And then, you know, they would, you would show up, like, in the middle of a lesson and not know anything, right?
Um, I remember they did that when I was in middle school, they just dropped me in, like, this algebra class. And these folks were like, I don’t know, they were like, adding fractions and, like, solving for X. And I had no background! I had no idea how to do any of that, how to move any of the terms or anything. Um, [laughs], yeah, so it’s just, like, this formula for failure.
0:36:12.0
But, like, this guy was great because, um, it was clear he knew my dad and he loved my father, he respected my father. Um, I can’t remember his name, but he’s still a– he’s a runner. Cause every so often when I do a 5k, he’s in– he’s in the race. He’s an old man kicking people’s asses. Um, but [laughs]– and then he’s, like, he was, I think he was also, like, a ref. Maybe– maybe, like, soccer or something like that, but, um, I remember he would let me just sit in the class and he ran the class in, like, the most terrifying way you could run a class when you got issues with reading, where he would just do read down the row. Like, the whole class was– was just the kids, um, reading paragraphs, and so he would go on down, but he structured it great, where he would– he would have someone read and then he would say, “Okay, you know Rebecca, why don’t you stop.” And then, and you knew it was the next person, but he would say that person’s name, uh, “David, why don’t you read the next paragraph?” And that person would read for a while, and then he would stop him and he’d give the next name and so even when it came to me, he just didn’t let me, he didn’t force me to have to read out loud cause I– I wouldn’t have been able to do it. Um, and I just remember appreciating that grace so much. It was very kind.
[Pause]
Um. So I– I was in his class and then, uh, we had a brand new, um, brand new teacher who was, like, right out– graduate right out of Temple University, Mr. G. I think G still works at Franklin High School, um, and they brought him in, it was my perception they brought him in because he had experience at Mock Trial. And so he was a Mock Trial/Mock U.N. coach. And, um, uh, but they also they gave him these two classes, um, one was special ed. Special ed history. Um, and I remember sitting in that class, and, you know, I’m in there with a bunch of people that I had gone to school with for years, um, all of us had been stuck in these– these– these rooms together, um, and G was, it was clear, it was, like, he was, like, 22 years old. Um, with a bunch of folks with, like, ADHD and they were also, just, you know, people dealing with issues related to, like, poverty and what have you. Um, and I just felt sorry for him. But he– he was– he was a, like, a film major and so he would talk about the process of making movies.
0:39:03.5
Um, and then he would make these tests for us where it was like, I remember he did a lesson on, like, the Boxer rebellion and it was a multiple choice question and then, like, one of the answers was, like, “B) the Wu Tang Clan.” And so, like, on the test every so often it was just these cla– these– these questions which, you know, if it was, whatever, it was like, he didn’t take it that seriously, you know? Um, uh, and it was kind of like a very, like, um, fun way of doing a modification, which is a– a regular, uh, support that we do for people with disabilities, you know. Instead of giving you a multiple-choice test with ten questions, they give you five questions. Or instead of, you know, you’d eliminate one of the possible, uh, answers to just increase the probability that you would– you would answer, uh, the question correctly. So, um, G was great. I’m in his history class, but he also taught an honors level political debate class and he– he was like, “I think you can do this.” And, so he let me take an honors class, my only honors class. And so, um, when I got– when I got to Middlesex, Elaine Weir was the lady who was doing my– my intake, um, and Elaine and I are really f– we’re friends now, um, and she’s– she– she’s been very clear, you did not, on paper, did not seem like someone who was gonna be able to– to hack it in college. Um, but you had this honors class, you had this history class, and I just thought I’d give you a shot and she did. And, uh, so they let me into that program– excuse me, and it changed my life. Changed my life.
0:40.45.5
Um, uh, the first time I learned, really, what it meant to have a learning disability. Um, what it meant to be dyslexic. It was the first time I was in an academic space where we were allowed to, we were promoted to talk openly about what our experience had been struggling through school. Um, had a great counselor, Susan. I don’t know where the hell Susan is right now. Um, but she was just, just this amazing lady who showed up at the right time in my life. Um, she’s the one that was like, “Don’t worry about spelling, just, don’t worry about it, just– just write whatever you want. And then we’ll figure the spelling out.” This was also– this was– I graduated in ’96, so this was also at a time where the personal computer was becoming more affordable for everyone. Um, Microsoft, I guess it was ’95, Windows ’95 had just come out. Which was a mark– remarkable piece of software because it had spell check, right? So you could get close to writing the word, getting the spelling right. And then it would give you this list of, like, what are you trying to do, right? Is it one of these ten or fifteen? And, uh, that was like this incredible piece of leverage for me to try to, uh, more accurately communicate with the written word. But the big thing was just, like, “Stop worrying about smell– the spelling and we’ll– you just write, and then I’ll sit down with you and you tell me what you’re trying to write here and I’ll make sure all the right words on the page.” And so, um, early on that was, like, how I got my first– first I had to learn how to, like, my skills were so low I did entire year remedial classes. Um, and I had to learn how to write. Like, I had– Professor Zeckoriak taught me in a remedial English class, taught me how to write a sentence. Um, taught me how to write paragraphs and essays, and then research papers.
0:42:49.5
Um, and, um, and I started using this technology, started doing my tests outside of the classroom, and all that just, um, it, uh, gave me the confidence to just try to start writing poetry for the first time. Um, and then Susan, uh, saw a flyer for some kind of open mic poetry reading here in New Brunswick on New Street. Um, and I had, like, just started driving, I was 18, um, my– my family got me a pickup truck. Black Ford Ranger, ’96 Ford Ranger. Um, I don’t know, my grandfather, like, my grandfather had hustled somebody who works for Ford, Ford Motor Company, and that person said I was, like, their grandson and so we got, like, a factory discount, and they used to build the Ranger off of Route 1 in Edison. So where the, um, Starbucks and the Chipotle across from, like, the Mercedes Benz dealership, there used to be a Ford factory there and they built the Ford Rangers. So my grandfather, uh, got me a Ford Ranger. Um, because he knew I was gonna have to drive back and forth to campus. Um, and I was terrified of trying to pass a driver’s test. Um, uh, but, yeah, he– he– he kind of shamed me into, like, getting my license when I was 18. Um, uh, but yeah, I remember– I remember going down to New Street for the first time and, um, I had started to make connections on campus, and so the people like Audrey Davis, um, who has, uh, worked in student affairs at Middlesex County College. Um, I remember Audrey came out to hear me perform these first couple of poems that I had written. And they were like, I– I came across– they were not good poems.
0:44:41.2
Uh [laughs], but, uh, there was, like, five or six people in the audience who just clapped really loud and, uh, I was like, “Alright, I’m gonna do this again.” And then Free Walker, Free Walker was a guy that put this thing on. Um, and, uh, Free had pulled me aside or called me up afterward or something and said, “I want to keep doing these shows and would you be interested in, uh, helping me put these shows on?” And so, I did. And, um, we– we, um, we did a show called, “The Homowo.” And the Homowo was– the idea was that it was, like, a pure open mic where just anybody who wanted from the– the community wanted to come out and perform, could perform. Um, and it was great because some other guys that I had known when I was in high school who were MC’s, they started coming out. Um, you know, we had the Rutgers kids, we had professors, we had, you know, local folks just from the community. Um, and again just, like, incredibly talented human beings, incredibly talented artists. Um, and when we, when we really got going, it was standing room only. And we did, uh, we ran it out of a venue called, “Affairs of the Palate-Palate.” Which was a black bone art gallery and café and so, like, I just remember, like, paintings on, like, every surface in this place. They had had– they had hung art, um, and we would have, just like, I had a pickup truck. I, like, was– we had mad chairs and tables and, you know, we would fill my truck up and– Um, and then there was still standing room only and my job was, like, I was, like, in charge of entertainment, so, um, it would be an open mic and then someone would, you know, come out and if they were great I took their number down and their name and– Um, my boy Rasan, Rasan Campbell who I’d met on campus, um, he got involved and he made our fliers. And I came across some of those, it was, like, really, really great, um, really great, um, artwork that he would put together. And this was also, like, during the time of, like, Neo Soul and, um, you know, Badu was getting popular and, um, Slam Poetry was becoming a thing. Um, you know, people were heading into New York and doing a lot of poetry readings. I remember, um, the Brooklyn Tea Party was a thing, right? Um, and, of course Nuyorican's Poet Café, um. Uh, I want to say it was the Brooklyn Moon on Fulton Street, right? Now at the time, like, at one point in college I had met, uh, met a very smart woman, um, who was a student at Long Island University, their Brooklyn Campus. And so I got to spend time in New York cause I was dating her.
0:47:50.4
Um, Brooklyn Moon was, I– I remember, I– I went to their– their open mic a few times, um, just– just really remarkable. Like, really, really talented artists. Um, and then at some point here on campus, um, uh, in the New Brunswick campus, the old New Brunswick, they’re in a new spot now that’s actually on– on New Street, but they used to be right on George Street, uh, just a few blocks away from where we’re recording now. Um, but they had brought Abiodun, the poet Abiodun, who was one of the members of The Last Poets. And, my– my mother used to play Last Poet records for me when I was kid, right? And so, like, some of the early– and so the earliest poetry that I remember hearing as a– as a kid were The Last Poet records. So, um, “Niggers are Scared of Revolution” and “New York, New York, The Apple,” and “When the Revolution Comes,” right? Like, I– I grew up hearing that. And their– their first record came out in 1965, um, uh, “The White Man’s Got a God Complex” [laughs] right? Like, um, this was, like, these were– these were– this was, like, incredibly influential music and, and poetry, uh, that came out of the Black Arts Movement. Whose, I think when their first record dropped, Abiodun was in jail because he was like, “Fuck this poetry shit. I’m gonna go steal some rifles and start a war with the klan.” And he was in jail in, like, North Carolina or something and the guys in the yard were talking about this amazing album that came out and he was like, “Oh, that’s me,” you know. Um, but Abiodun, when he was in town and lived in Harlem, like, uh, he lived in Harlem, uh, he would open his apartment up to any artist that wanted to come through.
[Editor’s Note: Abiodun’s full name is Abiodun Oyewole.]
[Editor’s Note: The Last Poets are several groups of poets and musicians who arose from the late 1960s African-American civil rights movement and Black nationalism. The name is taken from a poem by the South African revolutionary poet Keorapetse Kgositsile, who believed he was in the last era of poetry before guns would take over.]
0:49:55.4
And so on, maybe two or three occasions, I remember a bunch of us would go to Odun’s spot, and it was Sunday morning, and we would cook breakfast, and all day just be in his house and, like, people who were, like, famous would just come through. You know, like, particularly in that world, like, Jessica Care Moore came by, and Jessica Care Moore won the Apollo’s– Apollo’s, um, Theater’s Amateur Night, like, I don’t know, some crazy number of times in a row by doing poetry, right. They will boo you off the stage if you’re corny at all, and, uh, I want to say, I think she’s from, she’s from Chicago. Maybe Detroit, Detroit. Um, but she came through and was, like, “Yo, I got this, this poem I’m working on,” and it was, like, the first draft of “The Sweetest Revolutionary,” which was– became a poem that she got really well known for. Um, and, yeah, we just, like, I– I had a– a– there were three of us, a girl Lia, Lia Jackson, Rasan, myself formed a group called The Trinity Poets and Lia ended up working with Jessica Care Moore. You know, and Saul Williams, who was, like, a part of that crew, um, and a bunch of them put out an album called “Eargasms.” And we went to the New York release, I just, I remember that, we were the Jersey crew. People used to call us the Jersey Crew, we would come through, you know. Um, yeah. Yeah, it was– it was– it was a cool time to be an artist. That was remarkable for me, too, because I was becoming known as a writer, um, even after all these years of struggling with spelling and reading, um.
0:51:42.4
Uh, yeah, so, like, uh, and then also in college I decided that, um, I wanted to be a teacher, I wanted to make an influence, a positive influence in my community. I was still too terrified to try to pursue what was my passion at the time, which was creative writing. Um, so I picked math– math was a lot easier, you didn’t have to worry about spelling as much in math. Um, and I excelled once I got the support I needed after– took me five years to get out of Middlesex, I transferred with a 3.75 GPA, um, I decided that I didn’t want to be a math major. And, um, I– I had always struggled and still struggle with basic arithmetic, which actually is not that uncommon for people who are, like, advanced mathematicians, most of those folks if you look at them historically, like, suck at doing math in their head. Um, but I could do the higher order stuff, you know, um, Calculus and, um, Hyperbolic Geometry, like, all this other kind of, like, crazy shit. Like, I –I really enjoyed that. Um, as long as I just had a calculator to deal with the arithmetic. Um, yeah, so that, yeah, that was, uh, it was five years at Middlesex, um, uh, you know, I really got to just learn New Brunswick, right. And connect to the community here. Um, and there were, like, there were these, like, I had such a strong supportive community and– and just set of friends who were interested in so many different things. Like Todd Gardner. Todd was– was a few years older than me, um, but he’s just, like, this chill ass dude, right? I remember, like, a lot of my fashion cues I know, and if he ever hears this he’ll probably laugh, but a lot of them I took from Todd, right? Um, he was a saxophone player and a house DJ and a– and a house, uh, you know, he made house music. He was a producer, he would play in New York, he would play in Italy, people would fly him out to DJ in Italy. And, you know. So, I mean, like, you had these conversations about fucking men’s shoes. Um, yeah, yeah, so, like, him and my man Antar, um, who was a– who played the– who played the bass. Um, upright, and then, you know, the bass guitar. Um, and they were, they would be gigging in New Brunswick all the time, so. They used to be, um, Micada’s, an amazing Ethiopian restaurant. Um, they had two locations, one, they started out on one side of George Street, then that building got taken and then they went to the other side of George Street.
0:54:19.7
Um, and I was, like, way underage but I would just be like, “Yo, I’m with the band.” And I looked the part, right? [laughs] And so they would let me in. And so I got to listen to, uh, you know, listen to these guys play, um. And I, like, discovered– discovered jazz when I was in college, um. Yeah. Um, I remember Rasan had this friend Nadir. Rasan and Nadir were both artists. Excuse me, Nadir’s father owned a– an apartment in Jersey City, and I had never been to Jersey City. Um, but we were, like, in this apartment and the previous tenant had left and they had, uh, they left, like, you know, like, when you move out of an apartment, there are some people that actually would leave stuff and they had stuff in this apartment. Um, and, I remember, like, being in a closet and finding a copy of Toni Morrison’s Sula that was all raggedy as hell. Looked like it was from the ‘70s, probably, like, one of the original prints. Um, but whoever this person was, I think was in grad school and it was all highlighted out. But that was the first time I had read Morrison’s work, um. And that just, man, that left a real impact on me. She’s still one of my favorite authors. Um, I got to hear her speak in, um, speak at Rutgers. And that was also very eye opening cause, you know, this is someone who’s won the Nobel Prize in literature.
0:55:49.2
And I remember in this talk, her talking about the relationship she had with her editor and I remember thinking, like, what? Toni Morrison’s got a editor? You mean these perfectly polished sentences, these amazing stories don’t just fall out of her and they’re just not perfect? That was one of the things that they, like, they would try to get home to us in this, uh, support program is, like, everybody edits. Right, like, everybody makes mistakes with grammar and spelling, you’re just, like, on the far end of how many mistakes you make. Um, but just, like, realizing that all of us needed someone to look over our work to help it be better was really, really impactful.
Um, yeah, so, uh. I don’t know, Dan, I’m just talking here, man. Ok [laughs], alright. yeah, so that, uh, that was, it was good times, man. It was good times. Um. yeah, somewhere in there, like, Free left New Brunswick and he was doing, he was involved in, um, workaround police reform here in the city. Um, but also. [Bell dings] Uh. [Bell dings]. But he was also, um. [Bell dings]. Like, he was a capitalist too, right? Like he wanted to run a business, um, and, uh, so he left, he ended up leaving in, um, uh– My boy Ra, I forget what Ra did. Ra had a kid, that’s what the fuck happened, Ra had a kid. Um, and Lia finished school and, um, uh, when at one point I was running an open mic out of a lobby of Crossroads Theatre, um, someone had gotten connected with them and wanted to do a show, and, uh, needed entertainment and so they called me. What?
Which Crossroads?
Uh, Crossroads Theatre, that used to be on, um-
Yeah, the old building or the–
Oh yeah, so this is the old building that was now where the– the Arts Center is, right? No, no, no, yeah, no, no. So not the original, right. And, like, my mo– like, that’s interesting you say that cause, like, my mother remembers coming up and going to the original Crossroads. Um, and you’re pointing, like I don’t even know where– where it actually was. But, like, she would tell me, like, she was, like, “Yo, it was like, it was like a little, like, hole in the wall. And they had, like, a pole in the middle of the buildings. That, like, you had to, like, dip, you know, you were in the audience, and you could see the full action.”
0:58:38.5
Um, but she was like, “But the art was, like, the plays were so good. You know, they were so good.” Um, but, when I knew Crossroads it was up here on the corner of George and Livingston. Um, and it had a great lobby space. And– and so we used to put chairs up there and people would come out and they would perform with the– the big windows, the– the floor to ceiling windows at their back looking out at– at Livingston. Um, and then there was a place in the Amboy called, uh, Herman’s Corner, which was a bar. Um, and the guy there was connected with, uh, Rockefeller. He was the manager for a singer called Rell, um, and Rell had, like, one song that really got– got out, which was “Love For Free.” Um, and, uh, I ran an open mic there. And then, uh, Jay-Z is featured on the song, and when they were gonna do a video, uh, they asked me to be in it. Rell, Rell asked me to be in it. I don’t think I ever made the final cut, I was, like, the dude at the bar with the girl and the drink. Even though I’ve never had a drop of alcohol in my life. Um, but it was, like, m– yeah, the only I think I ever was in the room with Jay-Z, you know. And, but I still, it really struck me, um, that he was so professional. Right? Like, I remember him being in the corner saying his lines, figuring out, you know, the sort of, which scenes, like, kind of basic poet or MC choreography just as, like, what do you with your hands and where do you look? And I just remember him being there and being very focused. And nobody fucking talked to him and when it came time for him to do his– his verse, you know, he just knocked it out of the park. Um, but yeah, so I had those, those, open mics going on.
1:00:30.1
And– and at some point I just got sick and tired of fucking poetry, right? Um, and I– and I– and I can tell you what it was. It was like everybody just wanted to do Slam Poetry, everybody just wanted to do the comp– the competing and the competition. And I had gone to enough Slams and I had the experience of doing open mics. It’s just, like, man, I’m, like, I have been measured my whole life. You know? Every– every aspect of my cognitive ability has had a number assigned to it since I was 9 years old. I am not gonna get up onstage and let somebody judge me, right? Um, and then I also, you know, I grew, again, I grew up with The Last Poets, like, for me, um, you know, their work, Nikki Giovanni, Sonia Sanchez, Amiri Baraka, it was about, like, social change. And I was, like, unfortunately seeing these artists, like, they would write poems to talk about other poets and they just seemed like you’re focusing your energy on the wrong things here. And I just, I didn’t want to do it. Um, so I just, I stopped performing. I kept writing, but I stopped performing. And I left Middlesex County College, uh, tried to go to Rutgers. Um, they did not have a disability support program at the time, even though I was promised that they would. I spent five years at Rutgers University and left, um, it was, like, a real horrible point in my life. Um, but I made my way up in New Jersey City University and, um, they had a great program there. Um, and I remember our first semester just spending, uh, not bringing my car, so taking the train and the bus up. Not bringing a TV, um, just taking a semester to just sort of heal and rebuild. Um, and, uh, yeah and then, um, you know, I had amazing mentors up there. Um, you know, it's like, at Middle– at Middlesex, one of the– there are few real key people that had an influence on me.
So one was Bill Davis, who is still a good friend and a good mentor now. Um, and then, um, uh, uh, Ben Marshall. So Ben Marshall is a playwright. Um, I took him for my first, like, college-level English class. You know, after I got done with all that remedial stuff, I took him for that. You know, like an English 101. Excuse me, I took him for Afro– African-American Lit.
1:03:00.4
Marshall was, like, Marshall was the truth. He was really great and he ran his class– he ran his class where, um, he would– he’d walk in, he had his, like, leather briefcase. This guy, he was very put together. He would walk into the class and it was always very, just, like, “Hello, how are you?” You know, he was– he was, like, very cheery. Um, but you had the– you had the impression, like, what the fuck is Ben Marshall doing at Middlesex County College right? Um, he was clearly, like, a world traveler. You know, he would say things, like, “When you go to Morocco, you need to make sure that, you know, that you find a family that will offer you to– will offer to cook dinner for you.” And it wasn’t like– and this was, this was like, this was important, it was like, not if, it was when. [laughs]. And he would do this shit for, like, all over the world, he was like, “Look, when you go to Egypt–” he would say it to all of us, like, “When you go to Egypt, you’ve gotta go to this restaurant,” you know, “Or you’ve, you need to do this.” And it was never in, like, a braggadocios way, it was– it was– it was– it was just real relaxed. Um, very just matter of fact. Um, but he would come in, and if we had, like, a writing assignment– no, so this just, like, basic English, but I am at this point trying to master the five paragraph essay. Um, just still trying to master sentence structure. Um, and so he would come in, and if you had an, you know, you’d have an assignment you’d hand it in, he’d come in, he’d sit at his desk, you know, after saying hello, we’d all shut the fuck up and get quiet. He would sit at that, he would sit on the edge of the desk, pull out a, pull a stack of our papers out of his briefcase and he would flip through it, he would just start reading. And, it was like, he spent maybe fifteen minutes or ten minutes, some, some, some relatively small amount of time, but it still felt very valuable, and he would read out loud, like, the good paragraphs, right? The really good paragraphs out of all the people who had handed in their work.
1:05:14.6
And, um, as someone who was an auditory learner, being able to hear good sentences, right? It was, oh, it was, it was, I don’t even, like, I don’t know why he did, but it was perfect for me, it was perfect. Um, and then, oh my god! And then when he would read when the– it’d be, like, he’d, and the– and it wasn’t like, it was like, “Here’s, here’s David’s paper,” right? It wasn’t that, it was just stacks of papers and then he would just go from one paragraph to another, you know, we’re all writing on the same topic, he would just go one, you know– but when he would– when– when he started, and it was like, “Oh shit, I wrote that.” [laughs] Right? “Yo, he’s reading one of mine!” Um, and for years I had Marshall’s voice in my head when I was writing, like, when I knew I was writing some shit that was good, it– it was– it was Mar– like it was me, right? But it was still, like, was it good enough that Marshall was gonna read it, right? yeah. Professor Marshall, that guy was fucking great. And I– and then he gave me a solid where I took a stack of my poems and was like, “Yo, I, you know, I’m– I’m doing poetry, I’m performing, you know, would you tell me what you think, what you think?” So he said, “Sure.” And it was, like, quick turnaround, it was, like, the very next class, he wrote me, like, five pages of critiques, right? So kind. “It was good,” you know? Like, “You don’t need to say this.” And, or “This isn’t necessary,” or “This is amazing,” you know what I mean? Um, he was– he was a great, great guy– great guy. Yeah. Great guy.
1:07:13.5
Um, yeah and then I– I– I get up to, uh, New Jersey City University and there was the other Ben, it was Ben Jones. Ben Jones is a very famous painter and sculptor, um, contemporary of Amir Baraka, they’ve done shows together, um, Jones was also an African, he used to be a part of an African dance troupe. And he was probably, like, the first person to say hello to me when I walked on campus. Um, so, uh– uh, Jones, like, I had– I had– I had– I was a math major, but I had done most of my math requirements at Middlesex, and so, uh, I– I ended up minoring in Fine Arts, so I spent most of my time on campus taking, like, painting classes. And I took Jones for Life Drawing which was, I had never worked that hard, I had never worked that hard in a class before. Um, you know, people talk shit about, like, lazy artists, bullshit, you know. You could tell a person that put thirty hours into a painting versus a person that did it in, like, four or five, right? Um, but Jones–Jones– Jones was just, like, just a great, a great guy, great guy. Very supportive, um, and– and– and pushed me in just the right way. Um, and artistically my– my ability to do visual art really jumped, it was the– the, vis–as far as a visual artist it was the best I’d ever been in Jones, uh, life drawing class. Um, and our final was that we had to do a life size self-portrait that we knew was gonna end up being hung up in the hallways of the art building, so all of us were gonna have our asses out [laughs]. Um, and so I remember, like, working on this, on my portrait, uh, and Jones kinda like being in my ear, what have you, and I fucked up and said, you know, at some point, yeah I’m surround by all these people who are remarkable, and they’re, like, majors, art majors, fine art majors, and I was just, like, a minor.
1:09:21.1
And I was, like, “You know, I’m not really an artist.” And he looks at me, and he looked at what I was drawing, and he looked back at me and was like, “You don’t have a choice.” [laughs]. And he’s like, “You don’t have a choice.” Like, “look at this, man, look at what you can do.” [laughs]. That was, that was great, man, that was great. It was, like, wisdom, right? Um, yeah, so, uh, and then, um, Dr. Ellis Williams– Dr. Ellis Williams from, uh, who, uh, ran the Lee Hagen Africana Center, um, I took her for, “Black Women Studies.” I was the only man in a “Black Woman Studies” class, um, uh, but, uh, her political insight and then her kindness, and she was, you know, also a writer, performer, poet. Um, visual artist, um, she had a big impact on me too, uh, when I was on campus. And then there was, I think his name was Amani Jenkins, who, uh, was, I think in charge of, or at least one of the– the– the folks in charge of student affairs. Um, and he had heard that I did poetry and so he gave me an opportunity to do a poetry set on campus. And I, you know, this was, like, my second year that I was there. And I hadn’t performed really at all, and so I put together, like, a half hour, a forty-minute set. And, he was, like, “And this–” he was like, “This guy’s, like, he says he doesn’t do poetry, well, look at this!”
Um, yeah, yeah, so I– I graduated, uh, I walked in 2003, um, I guess I finished all my requirements in fall of 2002, um, and I graduated with a BA in Mathematics, minored in Fine Art, and I was taking advantage of supports at this, uh, at this– this learning disability support program on campus there, and part of that center’s work was that they did a conference every year where they invited high school students who are in special ed, um, from, uh, throughout the county to come and take part in a day’s worth of content, and I was on a panel of students, um, from, you know, college students talking to these high school kids.
1:11:58.5
And, um, and while I was– while I was on that panel, Bill Freeman, from the New Jersey Department of Education saw me and, um, introduced me to Bob Hall and those are the two guys that got me involved in sharing my story and my poetry to help empower kids with disabilities here in the state of New Jersey. And I had, like, at that point, I had decided that I wasn’t gonna be a teacher, um, I was getting ready to take, uh, actuarial exams, I was gonna become an actuary. Um, because they made, like, 60k out of college, and I was, like, “Fuck this, I gotta, I gotta get rich, I gotta figure that out.” And then I could, like, go back to– go back and be a teacher, I can do that anytime, right? Um, so I was gonna, like, work for Prudential or something like that. Um, and then my– my grandfather who, um, came up here as part of, like, part of that, sort of great migration of people out of the South. Um, he didn’t take any shit, and, um, he tells the story of leaving Glenwood, like, deciding he was gonna go. And I think he bounced around, like he, at one point, went to Miami and couldn’t– him and my grandmother couldn’t figure it out, couldn’t really, like, make it in Miami, and, um, and I think he had family up here in Jersey. Um, so he had– it came out that, like, Simeon’s going, Simeon Horne was his name, Simeon’s going to New Jersey, and he was a mechanic at that time on the Horseshoe Bin Farm. And so the white dude that owned the Horseshoe Bin Farm summoned my grandfather, you know, to go, I don’t know what the hell that is, the big house. I don’t know what the dynamics were at that time.
1:13:49.1
And, uh, he says, “Simeon, why are you going up North? Why are you doing that?” And my grandfather said, “Well, I don’t like the way that your people are treating my people, and if I stay here, I’m going to kill one of you.” [laughs] So the guy said, “Well, you should go to New Jersey then.” [laughs] “You should, you should go to New Jersey.” [laughs] And so he came to New Jersey. You know, he was a farmer and then he learned how to be a mechanic and he decided he was gonna be a builder. And so he got a gig on a construction crew on one of our military bases in south Jersey, I don’t remember which one. And he maybe was working, like, I think he worked as a mechanic initially on– for a railroad company in, like, Camden or in Philly. Uh, cause I remember going to the Franklin– Franklin Institute in– in Philly with my father and it’s got a– a steam engine there, a live-working steam engine. And I remember my father telling me, “Your grandfather worked on these trains.” Um, but he decided he was gonna be a builder and so he joined this– this construction crew. He was the only black guy on this crew, it was all Polish guys, um, and my grandmother tells– my grandmother would, like, talk shit about granddad cause he would, like, he would, like, make tomato soup out of, like, ketchup. You know, he was like, it was all this stuff he learned from those Polish guys, right? Um, but yeah, but he learned how to be a builder.
And so he, um, he bought a lot on Ward Street and, um, had a foundation dug out and bought a prefabricated house on Ward, and– and had it put there. And, um, and he tells this story, told this story, my father– my grandfather died in 2013. He, uh, told the story of, uh, having the house there, right? It was put there, and you can determine to what extent you wanted it finished, so it was just, like, siding, windows, doors, and studs. Right? Um, and maybe it had the plumbing and the electrical, maybe, but I don’t even think it had that.
1:16:28.5
But he had the– once that was done, he had the basement finished and he moved him and, uh, my grandmother and my father into the basement, and then every time he got a paycheck, he would go and he’d work on one of the rooms. And so he finished off one of the bedrooms and he rented it. Right? And– and I remember him, like, and I don’t– I don’t– I don’t remember the exact numbers but him talking through it, like, it took him, like, finishing two rooms, and then he made all the money he needed to pay the mortgage on the house. And he was– and he was like, “And then I was– I was working at Bristol-Myers Squibb, like, I had it made!” You know? And he slowly finished the house off. What’s crazy is, um, okay, I won’t go into the detail, but I dated a woman who lived in that house. Right? Like, when I was in college, maybe the second girlfriend I had when I was a college student. Um, a woman who was a few years older than me, her and her mother lived in that house, so I got to actually go in that house on Ward Street. Um, but yeah, but he, uh, he– he finished the house off and then this was– this was like what made the difference, that were to keep a few things in my family history.
1:17:52.5
One was that somehow, you know, way, way back in the day, you know, like in the late 1800s, um, I guess my grandfather’s father or his grandfather got access to capital, to credit, and it allowed him to buy several hundred acres of farmland. And I inherited 100 acres of that land, I still own it now. I’ve added another 50, uh, in Glenwood, but he was a tobacco farmer who actually owned his own land, which was incredibly rare. Um, and there’s a story behind that, um, but he was, yeah, he was allowed to, I think basically, just get a line of credit at a bank as a black man. A bank that was, uh, eventually, closed down because one of the brothers that ran it was determined to be crazy, um, so, uh, but we still had the land. Um, but yeah, my grandfather with the house on Ward Street impressed some rich people here in New Brunswick, rich white guys in New Brunswick, that then gave him access to credit. And so he was able to get a mortgage and he bought a house– he bought– he bought the foundation of what was going to be a church in Franklin Township. Um, on the corner of Ellen Street and Berry Street. And he was like, “The Preacher was crooked. He showed up at the closing,” and then he’d tell this story of, like, at the closing he was like, “I could tell this guy had done this, like, a bunch of times before because the lawyers were there,” and every time they would ask for something, he would reach in his pocket and pull out one envelope with exactly whatever that piece of paperwork was. And then they would go a little further in the closing and they would ask for something and he would pull it out, he wasn’t like it was gonna volunteer any information, it was just exactly what everybody needed. Um, but it was– but it was almost as if, like, this guy took a bunch of people’s money, said he was gonna build a church, sold the land to my grandfather and then skipped out of town.
1:19:58.1
Um, but my grandfather turned that foundation into a two-family home, a home that I– I now own and I– I inherited it. Um, but that was the house that really my– and that’s what brought my family to Franklin, um, uh, it was a house that I remember spending a lot of time in when I was kid. Um, my grandfather’s sister, Martha Howard, married Bill Howard. Um, who became the first black mayor of Franklin Township. And when they came up, they lived in one side of that house, them and all their kids on one side of that house. Um, my grandfather, you know, was I think, which– which would classify back in the day as a “race man.” So he was active in the NAACP with the president of our, excuse me, New Brunswick chapter of the NAACP for fourteen or seventeen, but he, um, he marched on Washington with King. Um, he worked in, like, integrating, uh, public, uh, swimming pools here in New Brunswick. Uh, I have a stack of letters of, like, when he would write to Johnson & Johnson, or any of the other employers in the city and be like, “You’re in violation of not having, um, of, basically of not having any black workers on staff,” right? Um, and so that was his thing, he would, like, pr– um, uh, apply political pressure to employers around integration in the form of employment, integration of labor unions, local labor unions, um, and, you know, and then they’d be like, “Alright, we’re gonna hire somebody,” and he would go to the community and be like, “Who needs a job?” You know?
1:21:54.5
And, um, you know, “Because these folks were getting ready to– to open up so all ya’ll need to go down there and apply.” But yeah, he worked at Bristol-Myers Squibb, that was his day job. In the evenings, it was, uh, Horne-Howard construction, um, and he built a lot of houses for, um, blue collar, working class black families in Franklin Township. Um, and, uh, yeah and he busted his ass for like, I– I don’t know, he– for many, many years at Squibb. He was– his gig was that he was a mechanic for them and he worked in the factory making sure that all the machines that made the medicine kept working. You know? Um, but I grew up on my grandfather’s job sites, um, and as I got older, you know, even as a college student, he was determined that I knew how to be a builder. And so I can set tile, I can hang sheetrock, I can do paint, I can do light electrical, light plumbing. Um, that’s part of the reason I know he bought me that pickup truck, cause it was like, if worse comes to worse, right, like, you can go cut grass or you can do something to make a living. Um, yeah, but he was– he was a big influence on me, big influence on me. Yeah. Um, yeah, so– so I get out of college and– and, uh, I want to get involved in real estate and I wanted to be an actuary, um, and a guy that I met, the only real relationship that I– I formed my five weeks at Rutgers University, as a Rutgers University student, was Melvin Butler who was from Camden and was a Fine Artist, was a painter. Um, but his, like, his godfather was Jeff Lucas, who used to be the head of economic development for Cherry Hill and was working at his own company, and was working doing redevelopment up and down the Route 130 corridor. And he wanted an intern and so I worked for Jeff Lucas for two years out of college. Um, doing, like, retail site finding. Um, you know, working with property owners around, like, consolidating lots so that you could build things like, you know, warehouses, distribution centers. There’s a big, um, uh, like, I’m assuming it’s still there, it’s been years since I’ve been down that way, but Burlington Coat Factory has a big distribution center down on Route 130 in Willingboro. Jeff put the lots together to make that happen. Um, and we were all about, like, reuse, taking, like, the old strip shopping center that wasn’t– it didn’t have any tenants, and, uh, redeveloping it into something with a higher use.
1:24:42.9
Um, yeah, so I worked with him and it was great because my, like, my grandfather taught me how to be basically like a landlord, but Jeff was, like, you know, “Here’s how you could make something that was, like, a multi-million dollar subdivision,” right? Or like, spec out fifty acres to be a warehouse that someone like Amazon could purchase. Right? Like, that kind of stuff. Um, and then in– on the side I was learning about the ins and outs of, um, uh, policies as they related to special education and empowering kids with disabilities from, uh, Bill Freeman and Bob Hall. And doing work at the, uh– uh– the Department of Ed. And, um, 2005 hit and, uh, Jeff– Jeff had, like, I was, I don’t know, it was like, maybe a crazy time in real estate or maybe Jeff and I just– just didn’t hit our rhythm, but, he was like, “I gotta let you go.” And, um, and I reached this point where I had just started doing work outside of the state of New Jersey related to helping kids with disabilities, um, and yeah, like, I moved to, like, Philly. Melvin had an apartment in South Philly, it was two bedrooms, and one bedroom was his art studio and then he lived in the other one. And I was like, “Man, I’m gonna write a book and just kind of figure my life out.” And so I moved to Philly and, would, like, sleep in his studio, which I’m sure, like, I lost, like, five IQ points from inhaling all those fumes, um, from, like, his oil paints. Um, but I was in Philly and I got, like, a hundred pages into writing, like, a memoir, which is a project that I’m gonna pick back up. Uh, I have an outline, I’m gonna work on that this year. Um, but, uh, I met my, uh, first wife during that time. Uh, who was, she was like a home girl from Franklin. Um, and I knew a bunch of her cousins when I was in high school. Um, but, uh, yeah, 2005.
1:26:49.4
2005 I had started doing my first national talks. I got on a plane, someone asked me to go out and do a talk, and, um, and, uh, I decided that I was gonna come back home, uh, and really try to make a go of– of seeing what I could with my family’s real estate. And so Jeff had showed me how to start an LLC and so I did that and consolidated all of the family’s property into it. Um, which was– it was pretty substantial at one point. Um, and, uh, yeah, then I said, “Well, you know, I’m gonna do the real estate on the side, and I’m gonna do this advocacy work. Um, you know, being a public speaker and– and, um, using my gift for poetry to try to, to change the world, you know, in this next generation of kids with disabilities.” Um, so that’s what I do now, right. Like, I go all over– I go all over the world, right? I go all over the world, um, you know, I’m really well known here in the U.S. but, like, next week I’ll be doing work for, uh, a learning disabilities organization in Canada. Um, there’s a boarding school in Kenya, the Rare Gem Talents School, two remarkable sisters, the Munyi Sisters, um, uh, Nancy and, um, and Phyllis. Uh, have a boarding school that they started out of their own homes, and now they are renting an old motel, uh, that is supporting the education of about a hundred, a hundred and twenty kids with learning disabilities, autism and other disabilities, and so I’ve helped them to, um, purchase a piece of land and they’re not building the first sort of structures that are– will eventually be a school that’ll support 500 kids with disabilities. Um, and they’re already a resource for, you know, there are families from all over Kenya that are sending their kids to the school. Um, and– and families outside of Kenya, because what they’re doing is so, so unique and they’re using, uh, Orton-Gillingham as far as a– a literacy program to help teach kids– kids how to read.
[Editor’s Note: The Dyslexia Organization of Kenya (DOK) is a non-government organization fighting for equal opportunities for Kenyan children with dyslexia. Their objectives include raising awareness about dyslexia and other specific learning difficulties, advocating for accommodation of students with learning difficulties in the education system, and working with individuals, organizations and nations to support the education of people with dyslexia. One of the organizations that the DOK supports is the Rare Gem Talent School, a boarding school that assists 200 children with learning disabilites with their education. As LeDerick mentions, this school is led by Phyllis Munyi-Kariuki, and the organization is currently in the process of relocating to a larger tract of land where they can more fully assist the needs of the children in their care.]
1:29:01.3
Um, but more than anything, like, they know what dyslexia is and a big part of the work they’re doing is just building awareness for people with dyslexia. Um, about what dyslexia is, they do training for teachers. But we’re– we’re gonna build this school, eventually we’ll have five– five acres and build this school, this boarding school, and I want it to be, just be like, a marquee example for, uh, East Africa, for what a school that supports kids with, with learning disabilities can be. And hopefully that model, we can replicate that, uh, throughout the– throughout the continent. Um, yeah, so that’s– that’s what I do now, that’s what I do now. Um, I don’t know, maybe we’ll stop there.
[Pause]
Um, LeDerick, do you want to share anything about, uh, other family, siblings, um, your new relationship, anything like that?
Oh yeah, yeah, we can go on there. Yeah, okay. Alright. Um, yeah so my brother– my brother, my younger brother who’s two years younger than me, he’s Raymond, the other Raymond Horne. That’s an interesting story, too, I’m the oldest and he’s got my father’s name. I think it’s because, like, my mother was, like, she kind of, like, sick of my dad, even when I was born, so like, “I’m not gonna have another Raymond Horne around me.” Um, but I think, I don’t know what that was. It was kind of, like, I gotta give this guy, like, something, right? So, he gets at least one kid with his name. Um, but yeah, my brother, um, my brother inherited the home that, like, the best house my grandfather built, which was the house that, uh, he lived in when he died. My brother lives there now. And he is a full time paraprofessional for Piscataway. Um, he is their head, their head soccer coach, um, freshman boys’ soccer coach and I think he also coaches freshman volleyball, boys’ freshman volleyball.
1:31:21.4
Um, and he’s a dad, he is, like, the best dad I’ve ever seen. He makes our dad look like– he's a lot better at it. [laughs] He’s a lot better at it. Uh, his kids are Cameron and Penelope who, uh, who are just gorgeous, like, really great human beings. Um, and my wife, who I’ve been married to for just a little over a month now: Samyuktha Mahindra. Samyuktha was born in, uh, Southern India, and family came here, made their way to Chicago area, and she went to middle school and high school in Princeton. And, uh, I had the pleasure of meeting her when I was, like, going through the worst time of my life, which was– I was getting divorced. And, um, and it was, like, it was the same kind of moment, like, I’m, um, like, the Obama era, they– they– during the Obama’s time in the White House, um, I think it was Rahm Emmanuel was like, uh, “We never waste, waste a crisis.” And, um, that breakdown when I was, uh, 17, like I used that to catapult me through most of my adult life and then, like, I went through this divorce. And I– and like, it brought me into therapy and I told my therapist right out, I was like, “Yo, I’m not wasting this. Like, I’m changing everything about myself.” And, uh, through that process, like, I realized, like, I really wanted someone who’d, like, loved me. And prioritized me, you know?
1:33:06.6
And, uh, and I just sort of sketched out this person that I wanted to have in my life and, um, and then the trick is that I also realized that I had to become somebody very different if I was gonna be, you know, if I was gonna be able to attract someone like that. And that’s– that’s who Samyuktha is. Like, she showed up. You know? Um, and, I have had to be a better man in order to keep her. Um, but yeah, it’s just, it’s been a great relationship, great relationship. Like, the kind of love that I didn’t initially even know was possible for me. Um, and she keeps me on my toes, you know. And is very supportive and I just, I want to give her the world, I want her to be extremely happy. Um, she’s a grad student now, finishing up a degree in sustainability and, uh, leadership and, um, I met her, she was, uh, actually she used to work for my ex-wife. Um, once we split and were living separate lives I met her and I had never, like, I’d maybe said hi to her prior to my divorce, um, yeah. Prior to the end of our– our relationship, but, um, yeah we got to know each other and it was kind of like an on again and off again thing and then, like, just before the pandemic hit, we were like, “Yeah, let’s try to make a real go at this.” And we moved in together and then the world went to hell and then we couldn’t get away from each other, and, uh, and it was just, it was great, it was a great time for our relationship. And I’ve heard people have gotten, like, divorced during this thing, you know. Um, but it just made us closer and closer and– and I asked her to marry me.
1:34:53.1
Um, and we got married in my backyard, you know, in our backyard. Um, like eight people, outdoor ceremony, you know. It was– it was great, man! It was fucking great. Um, yeah. She’s just– she’s smart and pretty and kind, kindest woman, one of the kindest people I’ve ever met. Um, and, uh, and I think this, like, it for me in New Jersey, right. Like, I’m going back to the motherland, I’m going back to Georgia, uh, her and I, like, as I get older, I’m 43 now, not trying to deal with another winter and shoveling snow, I’m not doing this shit anymore and it’s just, like, way too expensive to live here. Um, compared, like, you know how you travel enough of America, like, it is ridiculous, New Jersey’s crazy. Like, they’re really insane, and so, uh, I’m looking at, we’re looking at Atlanta. Um, and that’s the plan within the next year or two, to make the jump there. Um, so yeah. And– no, that’s it.
Um, one last question, um, between your father and your grandfather, do you have thoughts about legacy?
I mean, I– I think that, um, the– the thought of legacy, uh, I think, is– is something is ever present for me, right? Like, uh, I am a student of history and particularly when it comes to, like, trying to solve some of the problems that my work forces me to address, both as a poet and as an advocate. Um, having a clear sense of history is important, and some of that is, like, where you gonna fit within that continuum. And so I– I believe that my advocacy around trying to our– the world a more inclusive place for people with disabilities is a good, um, overlap for my grandfather’s in the NAACP, right?
1:36:52.1
Um, you know, particularly here in– in New Jersey, but really all over the country there are a lot of issues around special education being utilized to continue a lot of the policies around racial segregation in our schools. Um, uh, and particularly over the course of this year and us all sort of reacting to the murders of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor, um, it’s made me really look at my field. Um, and examine just the presence of white privilege in it, um, and how we really just, all of us need to do a better job making sure that we’re supporting, not just people with disabilities, but even the– the– the more at risk people within that population which tends black and brown people. So, I like to think that the, uh, the work that I’m doing now is a continuation of that– that legacy. Um, but I do know that, uh, part of what I mean to do is, uh, I need to write my own story, right? Uh, I appreciate this project, but I want to make sure that I’m the one telling my– my story. Um, and, um, and I think a memoir is a– is a good form factor because it’s not, um, self indulgent, but it’s meant to be, “Here are a few stories from my life that I think can help this next generation.” And– and I’m very fortunate that my early work in advocacy with the state of New Jersey was around empowering young people. Um, and so I’ve always had this focus in– on self-advocacy, the power that advocates can have, and even though so much of my field has a focus in on either teacher education, excuse me, or parent empowerment.
[Editor’s Note: The three individuals mentioned by LeDerick were all victims of police brutality and white supremacist violence in 2020. In May of 2020, George Floyd was murdered by a police officer who used an illegal restraining technique to suffocate him. In March of 2020, Breonna Taylor was murdered in her sleep by police officers during a raid on her boyfriend's house that was committed under a wrongly obtained no-knock warrant. In February of 2020, Ahmaud Arbery was gunned down by three men while he was jogging through his neighborhood. His death has been referred to as "a modern day lynching." All of these incidents incited protesting throughout America as racial tension rose, and many of these protests were not focused simply on racial justice, but on social justice as a whole for Black Americans.]
1:38:48.5
Um, I really believe that the– the real work gets done when you get people with disabilities who you arm with the tools to be able to change the world. Um, the disability rights movement really happened, I mean, even– even, um, special education as it exists now, the system that I went through, it happened because actual people with disabilities put their bodies on the line and forced political change, and we need more of that now. Um, and I– and I also believe that doing that work will be, um, will create a ripple that has the ability to change the way all of our– our school– our schools work for everybody. Um, so yeah, so I– I– I hope that’s my legacy. yeah. And I have, like, you know, I have a life plan and I have a handful of goals, more than a handful of goals that, um, maybe about a dozen goals, that I’m– I’m working towards now. Um, and that memoir I think is gonna be a big piece of it, um, and we’ll see what comes after.
Alright, thank you, LeDerick.
You got it.
1:40:03.4
[End of Transcript]