Paul Ruperintwari

Paul Ruperintwari uses his own experience as a refugee to help him connect to the clients of the I-RISE program.

“I say, ‘No, no matter your background, where you come from, you can come here, do your thing. We’re established. And within two years you can be something else.’ You know? Sometimes we think, like, ‘Okay, now where would I start?’ That feeling you– everybody has that feeling. You say ‘Okay, I don’t know anything.’ No, it’s not about what you, you don’t know. It’s about what you want to do.”
— Paul Ruperintwari

ANNOTATIONS

1. Forced Migration, Forced Displacement - From 1959 to 1961, a Belgian-backed Hutu insurrection, known as the Rwandan Revolution, forced as many as 300,000 Tutsis to flee Rwanda. The International Organization for Migration (IOM) defines this forced displacement as “a migratory movement which, although the drivers can be diverse, involves force, compulsion, or coercion.” For decades, the tension between the Hutu and the Tutsi had been spurred on by colonial intervention and drastic power imbalances. After Rwanda gained independence in 1962, the country was governed by a majority Hutu party, leading to the Tutsi facing severe discrimination and violence. Throughout the early to mid-1960s, thousands of more Tutsi would flee to neighboring countries.
2. Social Isolation, Mental Health - Social isolation, loneliness, and a lack of social support have been found to be major threats to physical and mental health, particularly among older and more vulnerable groups of the population in the United States. Social isolation is described as “the absence of social interactions, contacts, and relationships with family and friends, with neighbors on an individual level, and with 'society at large' on a broader level," which can lead to depression, anxiety, and substance abuse, as well as chronic conditions like high blood pressure and heart disease. According to a 2018 national survey by Cigna, social isolation has reached an all-time high, with nearly half of 20,000 U.S. adults reporting they sometimes or always feel alone. Refugees and other groups of migrants experience higher rates of social isolation due to having smaller personal networks and fewer local ties than native-born citizens. Additionally, COVID-19 and lockdown procedures have led to the closure of community spaces, which provided refugees with a crucial way to develop a sense of local inclusion and community.
3. Statelessness - According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), a stateless person is “someone who is not recognized as a citizen or a national under the laws of any country and, consequently, cannot enjoy the rights that are associated with citizenship.” Statelessness can result from a variety of factors, such as discrimination based on race, ethnicity, gender, or religion; denationalization; lack of birth registration; gaps in nationality laws or conflicts of law between countries; and the creation of new countries. Those in a position of statelessness can become vulnerable to disfranchisement and can be denied to fundamental rights, such as education, employment, housing, freedom of movement, and much more. The UNHCR estimates that there are over 10 million stateless persons worldwide with Africa accounting for almost 15% of that number.
4. Homelessness, Food Insecurity - According to the United Nations, before the pandemic hit over 1.6 billion people experienced homelessness or inadequate living situations. It’s not uncommon for food insecurity to precede homelessness as people begin to sacrifice groceries and meals to pay for housing, schooling for their children, pay off bills, or take care of other personal necessities. According to the UN World Food Programme (WFP), food waste is one of the main causes of food insecurity worldwide, along with chronic poverty, conflict, and natural disasters. A report done by U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) found that approximately $1 trillion worth of food is lost or wasted every year. The main cause of this waste happens when food retailers or consumers dispose of unspoiled food.
5. Employment Challenges for Migrants - During the pandemic, migrants experienced higher rates of unemployment compared to native-born citizens. According to a 2021 study by Pew Research Center, foreign-born workers accounted for 17% of the total U.S.labor force in 2020, and had an unemployment rate of about 4%. By the end of 2020, the unemployment rate had increased to 15.3% compared to the 12% experienced by native-born citizens.. Additionally, unemployment rates varied by state and industry. For example, unemployment rates for migrants working in the hospitality industry in New Jersey peaked at 53% between 2020 and 2021. In economic crises, migrants tend to be more vulnerable due to a multitude of factors like low educational attainment, unauthorization, limited local-language proficiency, and contingent work contracts.
6. Pandemic, Job Insecurity - During 2020, in response to the pandemic, The Community Foundation of New Jersey partnered with New Jersey First Lady Tammy Murphy to create the New Jersey Pandemic Relief Fund. The fund was created to raise money to address the medical, economic and social impact of COVID-19 on the vulnerable communities of New Jersey. As of 2022, the New Jersey Pandemic Relief Fund has raised over $65 million in grants that has been distributed to 500 nonprofit organizations involved in pandemic relief work, and to more than 18,000 individuals, families, and higher education students in New Jersey who have not benefited from government funded relief plans, such as the American Rescue Plan.
7. Employment Challenges for Migrants - In the United States, having a college degree is not a guarantee for a job, especially for migrants. Despite having a high educational attainment, these migrants experience a plethora of challenges in the US labor market. Due to issues like, licensing barriers, limited local-language proficiency, and discrimination, many migrant workers are unable to properly put their skills to use, leading them to work in lower-paid, lower-skilled jobs than the ones they held before. These barriers, along with high rates of underemployment and unemployment, that skilled migrant workers face result in a phenomenon called "brain waste."

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Ashley Teague

Highland Park, New Jersey

April 19, 2021

Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn

Annotations by Lanai McAuley


[Transcriber’s Note: This audio has been recorded inside of the Reformed Church of Highland Park using both audio and video recording. There are several interruptions during the recording by knocking or general background noise. The audio recording quality is poor at some parts, making the audio unintelligible.  These instances have been noted within the transcript itself.]

[00:00:00]

From this computer. Okay. It's mainly just hearing your voice. 

Oh, okay.

It'll just be audio. 

You don’t mind the video?

It doesn't need it, but yeah. And that way you're like, don't feel as if you're being watched. Here are the questions, so, okay. So the first thing is I say, “Hi, this is Ashley Teague, and I am, um, recording an interview at, um, our RCHP-AHC on Zoom because, you know, there's a pandemic, but we're in person here. And, um, the date is April 19th, 2021. And I'm here with Paul. And then would you, um, spell your full name for us?

Yeah.

Say and spell it?

Paul P-A-U-L. And my–

Your last name’s very long! [chuckles]

[chuckles] Yes. R-U-P-E-R-I-N-T-W-A-R-I.

And he could do that in like six other languages. 

Yeah. 

If you need him to.

[laughs] I can do it in six languages, yeah. But most of, I prefer most, uh, like I like Swahili is because, with those two basic, it's a basic form. It's like mother limit– It’s ‘cause it’s limit in Africa. And also Portuguese or French is more my language for any [inaudible].

Mhm hmm.

Like English, Spanish, once, you know, especially French. You have a very cool mother meaning because it's original.

Yeah. The way it conjugates and that sort of thing. 

Yes. 

French and Portuguese. Um, and um, okay, so let's start, um, let's start at the very beginning. When you were a baby, when, what year were you born and where?

Okay. I was born in, in Burundi.

Uh huh. 

And they're, uh– They're actually, the name that I carry. [inaudible] it's mean back in freedom because I was born on 1st July, which was the independence day. 

Oh, interesting!

Yeah. So it's me, le– Leaving language and my mother would say, uh. It's like a, lead, uh, heroes, something like that. Yeah. So it's where I get my, my name.

“Peter” and “Hero.” Oh, wow.

Yeah. In the sense of saying, okay, you'll be good. You'll be here. You know, hear– big in that sense. 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah.

So Burundi July 1st. And did you say the year? 

Yes. 1978. 

1978. Okay. Um, and who did you live with when you were a child? Parents, aunties, uncles, siblings, like who, who was in your life?

My aunt is my, my, my parent. Because that time I, my, my parents was immi– Immigrant. 

Mhm.

[00:03:06]

And they hadn't known much, you know, like an uncle at home. Just, not big cycle. Friend? Or my father fell upon my mom. And also just nearby. I don’t know. But, the, the person who had that most influence on me was my father. I look for him because he live in an incredible life. He came in the country, don’t know anybody. He started making from scratch, you know? Yeah.

So your parents were immigrants to Burundi.

Yes.

And where had they immigrated from?

Actually, they weren’t– I can’t say immigrant, immigrant, because there was a refugee.

They were refugees. Great, thank you.

Yeah, yeah. But, my father– My grandfather came into Burundi. There's a thing on the [inaudible] in Rwanda and that time is– It came in ‘64. Yeah. And my father, I was calling him, Rondi grew up there, he can speak the language. And there was not much, you know? And so she– My father, went, you know, risked his own life [inaudible] because at that time, there was, it’s like, a refugee camp.

[Editor’s Note: The Rwandan Revolution was a period of ethnic violence in Rwanda from 1959 to 1961 between the Hutu and the Tutsi, two of the three ethnic groups in Rwanda. The revolution saw the country transition from a Belgian colony with a Tutsi monarchy to an independent Hutu-dominated republic. By 1964, half of the Tutsi population was living outside of Rwanda. Learn more here.]

[Annotation 1]

Mhm.

So. [inaudible]. Yeah. So I, my, my grandfather sort of organized, and you have to go to school and do all this, so yeah.

Mhm. 

Yeah.

So your grandfather was actually the one who moved first from Rwanda to Burundi.

Yes.

But your father was a child, then? He was a little kid.

A kid.

So he lived a little bit of his childhood under that terrible experience in Rwanda, between Hutus. And, um, and so you grew up in Burundi most of your life, or when was the first time you moved, you, for the first time?

Actually, what happened? In 1994. Some of my brother, my siblings went in there, one that just left to join the military. 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. So that time in 1995, you know they, they already conquered the city, they have the city, they have the country. Some, so I decided, “Okay, let me just go because it’s getting bad.”

Mhm.

So I must have been. 16, 17. [inaudible] 15? So I went there for my first time, I started moving.

Mhm.

Yes. That was nice for me to see, oh, “This is the way my, my, my grandfather–“

Mhm.

“Grew up. Yeah.” 

And so where, um, what part of, um, Rwanda? So this is right after the 1994, um, genocide and Kigami, you know, has just, right? So, um, where did you visit in Rwanda? Did you go to Kigali or?

[00:05:56]

Yes. My, my ancestors just live in the north up in the, in the south [inaudible]. They call it in [inaudible] 

Mhm hmm.

So I said that, I said “Oh, that’s it!” Fine. [inaudible] So in the, from there, it's like a, it's like a twenty minutes to Gabby. 

Mhm hmm.

So for the first time I went to [inaudible]

Beautiful city.

Beautiful. By that time, or it wasn't beautiful because, by [inaudible]

[inaudible]

It pass by, you know. Like. Or it's just devastated. It’s nothing. But, you know, I, because of the feeling I said, “I have a friend here that would been here!”

Mhm.

[inaudible] anyway.

And so, so yeah, it was right after that, it all happened. So, the built– buildings were destroyed and properties.

Yes.

And there was a lot of, um, loss of human life too, right? When you went, was it, was that part of what you witnessed, was?

The first time that I witnessed that, I went there, there, [inaudible]. If you go deep in the village, you consider if there's a human body. [inaudible]

Mhm hmm.

And also there's, there’s a lot of fear. Because you don't know, nobody knows what's next. And the other side of the, the people that, you know, in Hamlet, that's the, on the side of, in the camp, in the refugee camp, in Burundi.

Mhm hmm.

There isn’t even go access in, going in Rwanda. 

Mhm.

Yeah. Because they get the some resistance. They don't want to leave the country like that.

Mhm. 

Yeah. They can actually walk from Burundi or from other cities, their own countries and go, go there. 

Mhm.

But for me, I didn't see that! I have fun, love of this place, that fear that of course I didn’t see what come next. Yeah.

So that was your first experience with traveling. And then, um, w– And you were about, you were a teenager. And then what did you do after school? Did you, were you in school at that time? Were you–

Yeah, I was in school. I was in school. I was in [snap] high school and. But, traveling was within me every time, because, uh, when, how I was raised. I wasn't asked to be independent in the sense of, my father and my mom taught me everything.

Mhm.

The skills that I will be needing, you know, to survive. Especially that case. You know, how to talk to people, how you approach life. Don't see things in a different way to the point that because my, my father was a businessman. I used to, he used to be, I used to go with him.

[00:09:00]

Mhm.

And do business, to see how it is to depend, and my mom also, she gave me that exposure, that to see, you know. Because he, he helped me. He was a really helping people around her because he had, you know, when you grow up, we have nothing and now maybe you can have people around, you can help them. So, they gave me that heart to serve people, to, you know, be humble that way.

Mhm.

And it must have skill of communication. Yeah. 

Mhm.

So those are things that I, I remember very well, that they give me the, they make sure that I know these things.

Mhm.

Yes.

That, yes! That those are three big parts of the job you do now, even, right?

Yeah! I didn’t know that I’m use these, these skills!

Mhm.

Now. Yeah.

Um, so, okay. So after high school, um, where did you go next? Or what did you do next?

Okay. High school. First of all, I, because my, my, uh, after that, my, my parents, my father passed away.

Mhm.

When he passed away because of, you know. Everybody wasn't, you know, feeling that like my, my grand, my first one wasn't that was already immigrated in Rwanda. And then my two sisters, one was already almost married. Yeah. That was, yeah. Because the second one was made and tourists and, uh. One also the one I followed, it was already in Rwanda for school. So there was nobody around after, picking up the business.

Mhm.

And that time, I remember I was like almost, uh, 17. Uh, I, I dropped my school. Um, after three years. And by my mom– didn't like it at the time. She said “no, you have to go back to school. This is not your life, this is not your business.”

Mhm.

“Everybody's gone to school.” And I didn't want to! I feel like, “ah yeah, I have to honor my father and take care of the business,” right? After three years, I went back to school and also that one, also, it helped me a lot. Just in the sense of, if that's you, how will you handle? Because at 17, I was managing, like, so many people, that um. And they're, not just managing the setup, you know, and I knew, I knew how the business was running. And the, what my mom also was there to, you know, give me guidance. But, uh, I didn't learn how, “Okay, this is what's supposed to happen, schedule that day. No, I just need somebody, okay, you do, to do this among the seven people I know. This, today to do this, this, this. I can create a schedule for everybody.”

[00:12:05]

Yeah. So that was my high school, ‘cause after high school, I went also back to the, to school, to finish my, my last year when I. Yeah. [inaudible] 1998. 

Okay. 

Yeah. And I went back to, [crunching] I went back to a, to a technical school where I was learning, I, I studied, um, comp– Computer engineering. Yeah. But most of it. I went for three years after my high school for college. Yeah. So, from there also, I can't. I couldn't go back in like in Rwanda or something. So I start doing business across the neighboring countries. Once the time I was got there, I thought to go Rwanda, Uganda, and then Congo. 

[inaudible]?

[inaudible] to go, you know, go out there.

Mhm hmm.

Do business.

Yeah. May I ask what was the family business that you were working in?

Yeah, my father was have, he had the properties and they have a contact in the company, but then my mom was earning the record. Yeah.

So they were both entrepreneurs.

Yeah. But my mum wasn’t really in charge. My father was in charge. 

[laughs]

He did business, my mom–

Mhm.

Yeah. So it's where, just,  [inaudible] why I love it. 

Mhm hmm.

And uh, also, I want to go in this area.

Mhm hmm.

 So I am traveling, going into these countries to see what’s there.

And so you are the youngest of four siblings basically, right?

Yeah. 

Brother, sister, sister. And then you're the baby. 

Yeah. [laughs]

Well, behind me, there’s some others. Three.

Oh, so you're not quite the baby. There's three more.

Yeah, three more. So. But uh, among all of them. I can say I was more active?

Yeah. 

But I love, much. My family to the point that I can sacrifice.

Mhm. 

Yeah. And then also, the other thing that make me love traveling. Because the situation at that time of Burundi wasn't good. Yeah. Now I'm thinking 2002. 

Okay.

Yeah. 2002. When every, everything, you know. There was a, a report that you used to attack and the time the tension is starting to get high. And I remember [noise] really for the 2004, no, maybe 2005. I was, well, I was going to the church. Yeah. Just evening prayers. And while we were just waiting in home in the, in the, in that area, it was a one block, maybe one block, two block behind. It was a rebel, they want to join the force. By the, that was just with the agreement between the rebel and the government that didn't want to join the military.

[00:15:54]

We want military, just, me just like, to mix.

Mhm.

So there was no more war. I remember that time, they caught us because we were in that zone and we didn't know nothing! You don't mean, you go to say, “okay, this is what people used to fight us, used to shoot us. But now, how come they can,” you know, “can join the military.” And that, I don't know much. I went to see, “okay, I want to see these people.”

Mhm.

Because it was, you know, I can't believe that happened. And they caught up take us to the prison for seven– Yeah. Seven days, yeah. They is, try to ask you, as “what's going on? Why do you come to see these people? Why, what's, what's the residency, what you want to,” you know, just the military start to do that. They want to get information out of us, but in the, in the hard way. Someone tells you, give you the pressure that we can get there. We was nothing of this because we can just, for, for, even in Korea, that's the chair. Then, here he'll take it out of, you know. The blue. And that, that starts seeing, [inaudible] These people, the same people that kill, [inaudible] Now, what to been, [inaudible] Legally. They’re armed. [inaudible]. Can’t be done. 

Mhm.

Maybe within a month. I was say, I told my mom, because I was leaving for Jersey for myself. [inaudible] Yeah, I can. I can go to New Jersey. I know that I can be tied up anyway. Okay. [loud noise, inaudible] 

Mhm hmm.

[00:17:56]

So I, I, I wasn't happy with the clear idea, but the thing that I was sure about, that I know that I have to be. And the, I can see also, Rwanda wasn't stable because financially, economically, wasn’t still going. So I said, “No. If they're not, then you just go.” I went to Zambia. That'd be, yeah. Spend some, like, two or three months. But, that time, that time also was hard because–

[knocks on door] [crinkling]

Let me pause it. [pause] Um, okay. So you were saying that you went to Zambia.

Yes.

After, let me ask, um, how long, how long were you detained? How long did they have you in prison?

Yeah. I had been seven days. 

Geez.

Yeah. But that's all, it's horrible because every day we have to go through. It’s like a. It’s just like, investigate, but not in the way, you’re scared because they have the information, they want to see why we, we have to go to these people. Why, what was it? The way I will be sad to have some other people to want to do something or whatever. But the bottom line was, on my side was a trigger because I already had, I wasn't really safe because some people got, commit genocide in my country.

Yeah. 

Now they're here. They want to join the military. It's impossible for me. I felt like there's no way I can trust these same people here. Do the same thing. [inaudible] Can, you know, I can just go out of this.

Mhm. 

[inaudible] And I trusted myself because I knew this is not the end, it’s a beginning. 

Yeah. 

Yeah.

And so you went to Zambia for a bit.

Yes. So in Zambia. That's where I start seeing the really thing, because, because I am waiting Zambia, there are people who was in the equation to see there.

Yeah.

In the, in the Rwanda. And the, for me, my. It's easy to notice my child. 

Yeah. 

It's, it’s not like, if I walk there, you figure it out. No. If I walk there, you can see that this is this type type type and the same people that met genocide. And then up here in your head because they have conquered that Zambia at that time. They was, oh, because the president of Zambia at that time give them freedom in the refugee camp, your business, and then they be everywhere.

Mhm hmm.

[00:21:00]

And then, you know. I, I wasn't feel good. I wasn't feeling secure. I can’t continue here because if I stay in Zambia.

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. There's some people that I run for. And also.

So just for the transcriber, what he's talking about is that after the 1994 genocide in Rwanda, some of the genociders who committed the genocide, fled the country to other countries. And it sounds, sounds like Zambia was one of them where they were given safe passage.

Yes.

Along with other European countries. 

Yes.

And yeah.

That's true. That's true. So, I have to figure out where, where I have to go. I think I can go back home. That's number one, number two. What's neg– ne– another country that I can go. And I feel much safer. Uh, just ask people that w– what. I decided, “okay. Now maybe I was next and there, there was no,” like, uh, “didn’t, there’s genocide there, because the country there” [inaudible] But, uh, no, maybe I didn't give it. Didn't give them a chance.

Mhm.

To come here. No.

Mhm.

But Zambia was worse because they pick over the, the, the prison and give them access to everything. Business, [inaudible] because it would be out of business. But in Namibia at the time, there was much, much better because I didn't see that stuff [inaudible].

Mhm.

Yeah. So I, I stay in Namibia. Uh. It's where I met my wife. [chuckles] Yeah. So I stayed there almost ten years. Not ten years, almost ten years. No, fifteen years.

Thirteen years.

Fifteen years. But the thing that it was worth, even it can, because I can speak it local Ms. 3, 1, 3. I And I was, I was, I was, I was myself. I said “Okay. This is my home. I don't want to go out again anyway.” But the tricky part within, you can, you can’t be a citizen.

Mhm hmm.

In that country. Even my son, even if it was born there, he will never be a citizen. It’s a bit like, kind of hard because they don't look at the refugee easily. Yeah. You're not can be, you can buy it. You can, can, can live here on a property in that country. 

[Annotation 3]

You can't. 

You can’t. But it's a constitution thing. 

Mhm hmm.

[inaudible] I think it's hard to apply that thing. Okay. Where do we start next? What’s next? And then, you know, she, uh. There was a, in the camp, the assistance doesn’t, the camp also to where we are the 50 unit. [inaudible] But even as I say, we can stay outside of the camp. 

Mhm.

Or we can stay within the camp depending on your, your ability. If you have skills, you can go out and use those skills. 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. But the camp was anybody and she was [inaudible] 

Like UNICEF?

[00:24:17]

No, no. It's yeah. It's yeah. Um.

HCR?

 No. Refugee [inaudible] 

Okay. 

Yeah. 

[inaudible]

[00:24:30]

Yeah. So most of the opportunity you can't, because after that camp have been there for a while. But people who are refugee, you have their refugee status, then they can apply for. Pick countries. 

Mhm.

Like, you cannot, that you will say other countries. So we did, we did that. 

Mhm.

We have to come here and they take us longer. Like in, ma– Like two, three years. But it come. Eventually. 

Mhm.

Yeah. And then I came here! [chuckles]

Mhm. 

Yeah. But since I left the camp, I left Burundi, I never had a chance to go back, got to see my mom or my brother.

Mhm.

Yeah. As we're talking now, it's had been fifteen years. 

Fifteen years.

Yeah. I never see them. Just talking on the phone. I can never see them. Yeah. 

So, um, I have a few questions. So I, I'd want to hear about how you met your wife. 

Oh! Oh. [laughs]

But, um, I was also just going to say, um, you said that in Namibia um, refugees are not allowed to own property and they can't, um, it's very hard to get citizenship or impossible. And you said your son, who was born there can't even– isn't a citizen. So that's because his– neither of his parents are citizens?

Yes. Yeah. So in Namibia was, for me, I was feel safe because the time I was there in Namibia, I had the opportunity to stay out, outside of the county and a good exposure to Namibia.

Mhm hmm. 

Yeah. I learned, I. And then I was doing business, with a lot of people, and find that if you don’t know me, you don’t know, I can’t speak. I learn the language, you know, I live with, uh.

Right.

With local people. So how I met my wife?

Mhm hmm.

[laughs] Uh, it's funny. I was a, a driver. I was driving for a, a transport. So I was driving. And then, you know, I used to go, uh, around. Here. She’s, she’s, she's new and doesn't know anybody. There were three, three girls, too. But they have one sister, she’s the one who approached me first! [laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah. Approached me, you know, starting my friendship. Yeah. 



[00:26:58]

But also in the situation that I just, I was able to help them, you know, buy some clothes and they, you know. Starting dating!

Mhm.

Yeah, we just go out. Sometime take to the next city in the evening. Come home every day. I met her mom. Yeah. Well, we find love! 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. And also, so. In that point, I said, “you know what? Just. Moved in.”

Mhm.

She moved in. Yeah– Before she moved in– Yeah, after moved in, I said “This is not right.”. Just has to make it official. Yeah. With the court, we went to [inaudible] for refugees at the court. 

Mhm hmm.

After six months, I was having some savings.

Mhm hmm.

Just the real wedding.

Mhm hmm.

Just in the traditional sense of wedding.

Mhm. 

[inaudible] I was having many friends of. Wedding day. Because the way there's a big community for [inaudible] Rwandees that was in the city. 

Mhm hmm.

So I went there, we had a big party.

Mhm.

At a big house and, like, people just came in. Good wedding!

Aw, beautiful!

Yeah! Yeah.

And you said she was new to [inaudible]. So where was she from?

From Burundi, also.

Okay, okay. [inaudible, overlapping]

[inaudible, overlapping] Yeah. Yeah. We, and the, the funny part, she was my neighbor! Back in Burundi. But I never knew her!

[laughs] 

I knew her sister and I had been to the house! Because every day then I'm going to school. I was passing the same, you know, in the same block. 

Mhm.

It's my route every day, but never see her. I knew all her sister, but she knew my brother!

Mhm.

And he knew, you know. She was always around me, but I never met her.

Oh, wow. 

Yeah. It’s fun!

Was your, [background noise on intercom] what, was your mom or any of your siblings able to come to the wedding?

No, my mom couldn't come in the wedding and none of my family can come because at the time I wasn't having a proper, or anybody to invite to come to my wedding.

Mhm.

Because they need the petition later. And that time, one year refugee is not a way you can. Because you are, you have, you– Legally, you are not, you are not still able to invite somebody.

Right.

Yeah. 

You couldn’t get the visa you need, or.

No. So there’s, it’s, it’s so hard. 

Mhm hmm.

But my mom knew it, you know? You're that knew that I’m getting this.

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. And my family knew it back home.

Mhm.

Yeah.

[00:29:55]

Um, when I was in Rwanda last, I got to go [background noise] to one, a wedding and it was a, um, Rwandan wedding. And it was, um, like seven different weddings?

Mhm hmm.

We went to one that was like a party and a ceremony, but then there were apparently other parts to it. Like, and the one we went to the fathers did this, like, funny game where they traded like–

Mhm hmm.

Um, like jokes. Right. Does this make sense? 

[00:30:20]

[overlapping] Yeah, it makes sense.

Like, “Oh, well how many cows will you give me for my daughter?” Like, “Oh, I don't know. Let me consult with my–” And the family would talk. And then, and it was just like, sort of a show.

Yeah. That's it. That's, that’s how their wedding. Even, this is a traditional thing. But they did it very good because– And one more, it's like a in the court.

Mhm.

Or I dunno, just, how do you say it. Just going to thread. “Okay. How many ca–cattle.” You know? You can say. “Okay. My, my daughter is worthing, a hundred cattle.” 

Mhm. 

So it starts again. “Okay, no.” You know, “because she not, she doesn’t do things, her chores–”

Yeah.

“Well, so no, she’s not worth it. I will give you 50, I'll give you,” to the point that it can come to the agreement. 

Mhm hmm.

And it's, it’s nice, that it's nice. More–

Fun. It was just maybe for fun.

[overlapping] Yeah, for fun. Mhm hmm.

Yeah. Like I think one of the fathers said at one point, “Well, you know what, maybe my daughter should just go be a nun instead!”

[laughs]

“Fine then, if you don't give it to us, so it gets, she'll just go be a nun,” right?

Yeah.

And you hear the daughter and be like, “Dad!” [chuckles]

See? It’s nice. Nice. Nice game. Not game, but really nice–

Yeah. 

Way, too. You know, with the entire family.

Mhm.

Make it in a good way.

Mhm.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm waiting, also sad. Saturday because my ceremony is like that because the– we didn't have a medical doctor in representing. Yeah. [inaudible] But we didn't, you know, they basically.

Mhm.

Yeah. And it also, how to [inaudible], there's no way you can, a lady can, you have to have a representative. Somebody who presents how on her behalf. And also may on my side, I have to have somebody who presented me because in a special way, I can go in the house say, okay, “I'll marry this lady.” 

Mhm hmm.

Either my father or my uncle have to do that. 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. They have to make sure that, you know, they represented me in a good way?

Mhm hmm.

Because back, way back, way back, even though maybe you are in love, is between you and your girlfriend or your fiancée.

Mhm.

You are, call your father. Not if I have to, not well before in advance, I can say, [inaudible] something wrong about it, about, about that family. Your uncle, your father will probably say, “no, we don’t marry that family because it’s, it’s.”

Mhm hmm.

[00:33:00]

So that time [inaudible] because you keep you happy. You didn't make happy, your own choice.

Mhm hmm.

Your father makes choice for you, who you're going to marry. Yeah. But so now things have changed, but they still also have to protect the catcher.

Mhm. So you were able to, you did a modern thing, you sort of skipped that step.

[laughs] Yes, I did.

You did.

Yeah.

Um, and then you had how many kids?

Yeah. I have a, three kid. 

Mhm. 

Yeah. First one, yeah. It's a boy. I had a boy.

Mhm.

Yeah.

And did you have them all in, when you were living in Namibia?

Yes, all of them.

How old are they now? 

Yeah. The first born is 10, uh 14. Second one is 11. Last one, 5. 

Wow.

Yeah.

And then you all moved to the United States together–

Yes.

As you got refugee status. 

Mhm hm.

All of us, we moved here together. Which was a good thing. 

Yeah. Where did you first land? What, what part of the country?

Oh, we landed in New York. 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah, yeah. We landed in New York. It's the best time. And that morning we drove from New York to, uh, JFK. “We can get to you.” Walk and they pick us up from there. 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. So.

So you’ve been in New Jersey. 

Yeah.

Most of the time.

Oh my, yeah. Yeah. But before, came here– I didn't– somebody said, where, because I knew that others were going and then, just I, I just said, “oh, New Jersey.” At the helipad, at Newark. I make the decision. Okay. Why? I fell in love with New Jersey because, because back in Namibia I was having exposure for the port back in. It's, it’s like a certificate plan because New Jersey was having a port of New Jersey, port of New York, port of Miami, you know. An airport.

Mhm hmm.  

And back home, back in Namibia. Also, where I stayed was here in Boston.

Mhm.

There's a port of, [inaudible] where I spent most of, most of my life, my, my, my life, you know, in Namibia, staying in that city. 

Mhm.

So I knew how the poor, functional.

Mhm. 

Job opportunity, what's there to do. Yes. 

Okay.

Yeah. So just I, I love Jersey.

Mhm hmm.

Yeah.

Um, and then how did you get involved here at this company? How did you start working here, or how did you begin your job or, you know?

[00:35:48]

Okay. So back, back to the plan you know, I was saying my mom how, you know, how people.

Mhm hmm.

When you are, especially in the food industry, get much exploited to explain it to homeless.

Mhm hmm.

People who are homeless. You know, every day I remember my mom was just give, he knew there's like a ten people every day breakfast. They cannot come home, but get to the business. 

[Annotation 4]

Mhm.

They offer them bread. It's not some leftover honestly. So that thing was, was within me.

Mhm hmm.

And at the time I came here, even in Namibia, I had, you know, that sense of, you know, helping people. Like to see people and know I can do something. But here was, was more out to, you know, how to do something from, you know.

[knocking on door]

Hello? [silence] Okay, now we’re good. [scratching] Getting that back pointed towards you a little more. Um, okay. So, we were talking about you working here, starting your job here. We were starting to finally talk about what you.

Yes.

As your job. And we should also say, so we’re at, um, RCHP, which is the Reformed of Church of Highland Park in the affordable housing–

[overlapping] Affordable housing corporation.

Corporation.

Yeah.

And your department is I RISE.

Mhm hmm. 

You're part of I RISE.

Mhm hmm.

So many acronyms, [laughs]so many, like, things it's taken me like six months just to learn all that.

Yes. So I was saying that the back home, how is that just. Thing, you know, having people just be around here. I get this from my mom. I say “okay mom,” you know, every day what she's doing, you know. It was doing, like, many things just to be involved. 

Mhm hmm.

I get that, that, that, that definitely. And also the time also running the same business, you know. I have done, you know, I have refugee people around me, just, you know? Yeah. They have them. And the time we get here, even though I was a refugee, new refugee, I have the opportunity just to be volunteer because I was like, I remember there's a, a lady. She had a kid who was having a heart problem? I was taking her every, not every day, but most of the time to the one main hospital, New York for the hosting, I think University of Columbia or appointment, surgeries. And not only that, but also the people around me. Because I feel it was a privilege, you know, to not have to feel okay and have somebody.

Mhm hmm.

Even, I was, even myself a refugee. 

Right. 

And that was by the time I was working. So, I was continually involved, in being involved, even though that I was doing my thing, my walking, but every week I had to come here and see, what, “Do you need help from me?”

Mhm hmm.

[00:38:57]

And that he had come. And then.

Mhm hmm.

I lost my job. I lost, you know, source of income. Yeah. But I said, “Okay, that's it. This is what it is.” I, and that time also, he had a chair, it was kind of opening.

Mhm.

And there is nothing, but I was continue, uh, volunteering. And, uh, pastor Fez pressed me. “Hey, you know what, you know, we can employ you here. We can, you know, we can just get some, you can, we can work part time.” You know, “it's still, every time you just come here for,” you know, and yeah. “We can do something for it.”

Mhm.

So I said “Okay.” So I started volunteering for print in 20 hours. 

Mhm.

That was it, it. It really Ellie Apro. When they covered it. I think it looked at the same week, the second week for COVID? 15? I lost my job.

[Annotation 5]

What was that job? What were you–

I was working as a maintenance. 

Okay. 

Yeah. 

Maintenance.

Yeah. So I lost that contract, that job. So, but coming here most of the time, [background noise] working. As I said, now, I say, “okay, you can here, work 20 hours.” “Okay! That's, that's fine.”

So hired you, you were volunteering, hired you to work 20 hours a week. 

Yes.

Part-time.

Yeah. Yeah. And that time was also. So the time that they get the grant?

Mhm.

For just helping people who lost their, you know, job. Lost the thing, they get the grant, we'll call it. It was foundation. The grant was for the wife of our mayor or governor, Murphy. The wife was the one.

Okay. 

 Just to help most people that lost their job, lost their income.

Mhm hmm. 

And they're, most of them were homeless.

[Annotation 6]

Mhm hmm.

So they give me that. They, after a time, that's what I'm. I was like uh, helping people who homeless.

Mhm.

Get them the equipment needed for, you know, new house. Maybe that kid getting furniture, getting all these things. Just to, establish to, in the new house.

Okay. So the church provides housing to people. 

Yes.

Um, some of whom might– are homeless and you were sort of helping them with that transition.

Yes.

And getting the houses together and donations of furniture or whatever people might need to get into [inaudible]. Okay.

So I did that one for– Until. [pause] Last year, that's the same. The grant finished. But also I was, I was doing that one as a pattern.

Mhm hmm.

But in May. [thump] In May, last year, they hire me, other part-time for I RISE. 

Okay.

[00:42:09]

So doing part time for I RISE, other part time for Luce Foundation. 

Okay.

Yeah. And by all these things in one it was, you know, helping people who are in, you know, distressing situation.

Mhm hmm.

You know, you know, you have to understand people. It depends on their background. And and you have to be humble, you know, people know, “okay, this is, it's how,” I love it. This job that I'm doing. Say “okay.” You know, I get that, the explore that, you say “okay.” You know, it's not easy because some other clients was, you know, give me a hard time. It's hard to cooperate with them. I have to understand “What do you want?” You know? 

Mhm.

Yeah, but. I love my job.

Yeah. Do you think that when you're working with people who are going through the, um, process as a new refugee, does it help them when you share with them that you also were a refugee? Do you think that, like, makes them feel more, less of alone, maybe? I don't know.

Yes. You see, like, I'll give you one example. There's a family came from, I don't mention the country, but they came here. The first conversation I had with them, actually, I have a story. 

Mhm hmm.

I say, “No, no matter your background, where you come from, you can come here, do your thing. We're established. And within two years you can be something else.” You know? Sometimes we think like, “Okay, now where would I start?” That feeling you, everybody has that feeling. You say “Okay, I don't know anything.” No, it's not about what you, you don't know. It's about what you want to do.

Mhm. 

To be alive. You know?

Mhm hmm.

You may not know English, you don't know the system, how to navigate, but I won't even put him because here, around, there are good people who can teach you, who can direct you. But it's not what you don't know, but it’s what do you want to know? 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. So, which, I, most of the refugee. It's not, you know, it's like a big, huge ocean. 

Yeah.

And you are thrown in it. Because. I wouldn't tell that to swim or you just want to see controversy. Yeah. And that, for me personally, I believe when, if I share my story to the refugee people, they can be heard. You can feel it up here. They can feel okay. Yeah. Yeah. If we probably did [inaudible]. Yeah. It's sort of correcting themselves, “Okay, you’re not alone. Everybody had been here, but have that whole, we don't know how to swim,” and that because yet you will get to where you want to go.

Mhm.

[00:45:02]

[pause] I, in my experience, I tell people, especially when you came here. You know, it’s like a, “you'd never be at the school or never be on this team. You never had the opportunity to be alive. And if once you are here, it’s like they serve you a buffet.”

Mhm.

Some people, they come to the buffet, they say, “Okay, you know what? I don't eat meat. I don't eat this, this and that.” Also, your life is that way. If you want to eat everything here, it's free. It's not free, but it’s according to what you want. 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. If you don't like it, we can, or you don't like this. You don't take it. 

Mhm.

Also. Here is the same. If you don't like this, just leave it there. Don’t waste time. Take what you want! And pursue, pursue what you want.

Mhm.

Your career. Because one will tell you “no, this one is impossible here.”

Mhm hmm.

But it's you going to say to yourself? “Okay, I can’t do that,” it's really gonna stop itself. 

Mhm hmm.

I'll tell them, “Back home. Women don't drive and they didn't have a driver's license or they never even drove a car.” I see somebody who grew up in [inaudible] I tell them, “Okay. What can stop you to not, to not learn how to drive, or not learn to drive? Do you think anybody in America say ‘no?’ No.” 

[laughs]

“But you can! You can say ‘Okay, I can drive!’ You can drive.”

[inaudible]

Yeah. So is that a good way of telling you this? “You want to drive?” “Yes!” Go for it! There are people around. If you want to know the people around them, they will come in your lab. They will say, okay, “I can teach you that, I can pay for it.” They say, “I didn’t know that.”

Mhm.

So, but if you stop yourself, there's no way! There's no one that would come up in your lap to help you because it's not what you want!

So that's part of your job is saying, “Okay, this is what they want from the buffet, how do I help them find the resources and get the training and the thing to get that, to achieve their dreams.”

Yes.

And do you, um, uh. So two things that you said that I'm curious about is one is, it sounds like there's some, like, cultural, like, you know, you go to a buffet and it's like, “I don't recognize any of this food. I don't even know what I'm going like,” you know. Like what, you know, you talked about driving, right. And people being intimidated because that's just not something, they've never done. What is the work around culture? And, like, are people keeping culture or losing culture, or what they have to do to like, um, deal with American culture, I guess. What is that work you do to sort of bridge that?

[00:48:00]

That's the hard part. Because sometime, okay. Well, I'll give you my own, my personal experience. No. But in my company, most people that don't have exposure to know what’s a good thing, what is working.

Mhm hmm. 

Not only the good thing, not only, but to see, what’s the wall. 

Mhm.

You find somebody, even watch movie, or sit, you know, a movie or television to see the other side of the wall.

Mhm hmm.

They don't have that because of, you know, I don't, I can't explain a word, but maybe that's it. It's hard to tell him what's good because you haven't ordered for it. You can, [stammering] my ex– Er. Okay. I can tell you, “okay, sugar is sweet, like honey.” 

Right. 

But to them, what can I give for comparison? If they never give her that explanation to see, “Okay, you can own this. You can have this.”

Mhm.

There's no way I think you can start. Which I believe it's hard for me because it's a country and it's already, I'm good in them. 

Mhm hmm.

Because sometime you, you have no way to stop. To tell him, “If you go up there, then this trip can be very hard.” 

Mhm hmm.

It’s hard! And I feel like sometimes I feel like, “okay, it's working so hard.”

Mhm hmm.

Because it's in the culture. It's in there. And people don't want to land in order to do that other thing and they so “no, it’s my tradition.” That's it. It's hard. I'm saying that because this is what candle, they're bound people. Not to go ahead. You got to do something because it's in the culture. I don't want to leave my culture. But if you come here with an open mind, “this one can be beneficial to me, myself, even my, my kid or my generation, because I will raise my kid according to what, how I've been raised.”

Mhm.

I keep, okay, an open mind. If you want to go for skiing, go, if you want to go forth north, these are small things! Go for swimming classes, go for it! But if you want to go for those, you know, skydiving, go for it! 

Mhm hmm.

It's up to you. I will give that experience to my kids because I want them to be open mind. 

Mhm hmm.

But back in our culture, “no, don't do this!”

Mhm. 

Without any explanation.

Right.

I don't give you the explanation because this, this is how the culture is. You don't go beyond the boundaries. My mom said, “Don't do this.” I have not attend a party. I have not. I have not asked it, “Why?” 

Mhm.

[00:51:04]

This is why most of, you know, funding, first generation, second generation of immigrants, we don't do much. Because of the culture, which is we came back from home with it and the–

Mhm.

Which is not open mind. Do this, define the pursuing.

Mhm.

Yeah. So that’s related to my work. It's hard also in that point, because, you know, it's like a breaking of culture. You know, it’s something we have been carried for fifty, forty years in one day as a caseworker, can’t break it. 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. The only thing I can tell is “Hey. You know, two days can be beneficial too,” but it's also come to responsibility to who I'm telling what I'm thinking.

It must be hard balancing things that need to change and the things that you want to hold on to past down and keep. Um, another thing you've said, oh! Or maybe you said to me, last time we talked was that sometimes people come over and they are doctors or they're, you know, um, generals. Right? And that they have to, in order to start out, they might have to work jobs that feel–

That's another hard part because we're saying, you know, in the other side of the coin, but to this side of the coin, you know. You become, somebody can be, not doctor only, just have this qualification. 

Yeah. 

And it has been in the back home with your competitors in some way in the, you know, high officials, helping that expert. [background noise] But when you come here, you are on the floor. 

Mhm.

There's no other way around, just to go ahead. But they prefer here to stay in the system and benefit because. You know, it say, it take a courage, boldness to say, “Okay, you know what? I may be security. I may be Uber drive. But this is not how I want my life.” 

Mhm hmm.

Yeah. They have, also a person that I say, I feel I have a– [background noise] hindrance because they say, “oh, you know what? Here lacks so much.” Because they don't know how to navigate the landscape, the. Back home, maybe you have an uncle or help somewhere. Okay. “You know what? You do this, I'll help you, what are you doing–“

Mhm.

“Your career, vacation, you do this.” Some may do it, but here they wouldn’t. The example I gave you, somebody who can be as a general.

Mhm hmm.

He, he don't know how he can figure it out way to start life. Which is hard for me and, because how would I help him? He, the first thing you feel sharing. Yeah. You feel sharing, you know, to start. Back home, they used to sell tell it to me every month. Whenever I go people opened up. Now I come here, no one, no one even recognize me. That thing. Instead of motivating them, it's hindering them. Say “ugh! I had here, I had this.” He said, “Okay, let me do this simple life benefit. No, I don't want to do anything. Better just to provide for my, my, my food, that's it. You don't want to have that.” Which is, I understand. It's hard because you know, it's like, you know, people, they can't swallow their pride. It's hard. It's not, it’s everybody can say, “Okay, you know what? It is, what it is. Let me start from here. Which is a lot of, it requires courage.” 

Mhm.

[00:55:05]

Yeah. “Well, you know, he, he used it. He only just be in that dream.” Okay. “Back home, back home. They used to do this back home.” That’s the only difference he had. Instead of saying “Okay, you know what? This is past. Let me create something else.” “For what?” [background noise] No. It's hard for my job because I'm building two type of people. People who have empathy back home and people who have nothing and they have to understand, or they are probably gone. So that I can sell them in the proper way. So, I. I will give you an example. Last week I met with somebody who's there. It must be very [inaudible]. I don't mention that, but. Also, yeah, he'd been also here study. You have also degree here.

Mhm.

The job was doing, he paid fourteen dollar, warehouse job.

Mhm hmm.

I ask myself, “Well, how come you have a master degree? You have a degree here also in America, but you're still pursuing the job, which is paying. Not even warehouse job, which it can be not nothing, nothing to do with your qualification.”

[Annotation 7]

Right.

How I asked myself that question so that I can help him. The conclusion was, you don't know what you're planning. It's hard that me as a, your caseworker can help you. Because you don't know your value. You are choosing, you are chasing something which is too small for you because you think that this is too hard. It's all I, most of the time. That’s not that I want to serve my clients, but I want to let them understand that they are valued. Because you know your knowledge, the way you handle your staff, the way you carry yourself, it's, that's already of value. No matter the degree you have, or what you think you have. This have to come also to work, to not only in that aspect, but I have to come to the aspect of psychology.

Yeah. 

To say, “Okay, you know, what? I know it's beyond me.” I can not, I have no– no, not a lot of tools on my side that I can help them psychologically. But this is what I see as a problem. Because you have qualification. How come you can’t pursue that? Because it's lack, you feel like, “no, I'm not like American. I can’t speak English.” No! It's, this is because what you believe.

Mhm hmm.

[00:57:52]

 No, you're not that job. No, it's not that. Here you, you remit yourself. All. I have some of the time it's my job is it's not only to help, and I'm serving the people and then building it, but this a lot of involvement that you need a skill and that what make me good on it. And I feel proud of it. Like, okay, you know what? The only skills I can move here, understanding my clients. 

Mhm hmm.

Nothing else. I may know. I don't need too much of this, but I need to understand. Okay? And the ones that I not, I understand that my client, and [inaudible,] this is a fear. Because the fear, which is here, you know, “you studied here for years! How come you, you know, you go to the interview, you fear.” You know, because you fear because of what? “No, no, no. I did prepare.” It's that fear that's holding you to feel, “Okay. I can’t achieve this. If it wasn't my country–”

Mhm hmm.

“I suppose to do that.” No, no.

So, so much of your work is the socio-emotional–

Yes.

Part of it. And so you're, like, naming so many mental health things, depression, denial, accepting, right where you are now. Confidence. [inaudible]

Yeah, so. The biggest part of all the people that I exposed to– I can say 90%, they having good, psychological trauma. In the one sense or the other. I know even myself, I may need help, but you know. The society here, especially in America, how is designed– It's hard because there's not like a, you know. Back home, somebody, you know, when you're speaking one, the same language, it's easy, ‘cause I can empathize and say, “Oh, my brother’s down these days.”

Mhm hmm.

[01:00:13]

You know, your uncle can call you and do that. 

Mhm hmm.

But here you are, you are in your island. No one would come to you. But the only thing that I, I will, [inaudible], I will come. because you can figure out. You will come to me. Okay. You know? Uh, and that's when I first contacted on behaving.

[Annotation 2]

Mhm hmm.

That, okay, I will understand, I will– Chat with you, try to, you know, figure out. But I don't have a much power over you. 

Mhm.

As a case worker. I don't have much influence over you because, first of all, there's a trust. I have to build that trust. But if that word was coming from your uncle, from your mom––

[overlapping] Mhmm.

From somebody around! We get much impact on you because there are people who shape your life. But me, we meet only just because, you know, the causes of life. I, I may feel that way, but they will not have an instant impact as from your uncle or your mom. They may be same word, but it's not much impact. 

Mhm hmm. 

But it would be nice that, and I respect everybody. The only thing I, I do most of the time, just to have much contact with the same person often. “Oh, boy. Yeah, you come next week. You come then.” You know?

You keep showing up.

Yes. Yeah. Not just to, for, er, job related, but just the thing that you can motivate him. [pause]

Mhm.

There's different cases that I can speak out, you know. Somebody. This– I'm going to the medical field now.

Yeah.

Somebody have––

We’re okay on time, right? I just know you have–

[overlapping] Yeah.

A meeting in fourteen minutes and I want you to be ready.

Um, somebody who believed that no modern medication can treat him.

Can’t?

[overlapping] Yeah.

You mean he doesn’t believe in it?

He doesn't believe it. You tell him, “Okay.” He came to me, “You know what? [pause] You know what? Back home, this one, we used to treat this way, this way.” Okay. What  I asked him, “What is that?” And the family is back home, they do treat you that, that if you have this feedback, you have this symptom that you feel, okay, you understand. But you know what? The best way you have it for here, the benefit, you have Medicaid. Why not just go to the– Rap? I don't ask you treatment. This, they're not what's the, the program. 

Mhm.

Go from blood test, go for anything that you can imagine.

Mhm.

They test you. And then once you know that we can say, “Okay, now I can send.” He, he was willing to send, to send back home 700 US dollar. For treatment, which he don't know what is, what is, is that.

Mhm.

[01:03:04]

We find out he was having the– He was having an infection. Then we just, yeah. Just infection.

Yeah. 

And–

So he needed antibiotics or something.

That, that seems so simple. But because he had been here, be denied. De, denied that thing. Even the point that you say, “Know what? You know, what? I'm willing to pay $700.”

Mhm hmm.

The simple thing that he go, they pay them noth– Less than twenty dol–

Mhm.

But because of that culture, that thing, that belief, to believe that back home they can treat me,  the traditional thing can treat me well.

Mhm.

He, he can lose his life or, he can, you know, so.

So he was willing to send $700 home ticket, like in the mail, some sort of like–

[overlapping] Yes.

Herbal–

[overlapping] Yes.

Something. Treatment. 

Yes. Now you imagine somebod– When that area that, to tell him, “You know what, let's just get on it. If nothing else, if this is not done the way, you send that money, they will, bring, they will–“

Yes.

By the time they found that it's happening, infection was simple. Easy. Give him, you don't go. 

Mhm hmm.

But to bring him to that point to understand that–

[overlapping[ Right.

“Okay. You know what, before you send that money, let’s just go for, you know, exam.” 

Mhm.

“Nothing else. Don’t treat, don’t take any medication. And they believe once they have, it’s bad. 

Just getting him to to the appointment.

[overlapping] Yes. Yes. [inaudible] I'm the one who have to call, you know? Yeah. Take him to, yeah. 

[chuckles] Yeah.

 It's hard! But that's what I like about [children in background] laugh because I love to send people out, to see, you know? 

Mhm.

Yeah. 

Mhm.

Yeah. I love it, I love my job. So. That's what's making me sometime end of the day, when I’m maybe having a rough day, but. But at least if I do some, one thing in that sense, I feel fulfilled. I feel, I feel okay. Yeah. This is making me feel good. Yeah.

Mhm. 

Yeah. 

Um, okay. Let me see if there's anything else. I need to let you go to this meeting, but, um. Challenges, we talked about that, what's hard about the job. Oh, are there any, I guess anything that I should have asked you that I didn't? If you were interviewing you, what would you ask? And then also like, if there's any, like, just on like a policy level, if there's anything like, bureaucracy-wise or like government-wise that you wish would change, that would make your job– Easier or would make it easier for refugees and asylees, or, you know, any of that kind of stuff that's– I know people complain about DMV a lot on these calls I've noticed. [chuckles]

[01:05:22]

Yeah. So that's, uh, for me, it's, a– I don't mind much about those because it’s the, the structure of the system, but the thing which I see more most is to access to the– mental thing. Mental–

Mental healthcare.

Because this a– Not that I'm dealing with every single day, but this is the thing that we can affect the second generation. 

Mhm hmm.

Not to be achiever, not to be pursuer, not to be all these things that you complain a good citizen can be.

Mhm.

More productive. Because I believe once you come here, you have that access to the mental health. You understand how, you know, your wellbeing as a human being. [children yelling] It's gonna, you know, help you to be a good citizen, be productive.

Mhm hmm.

You know, not be intimidated by the system because “I can’t speak. I don't know their English.” No, but you notice who you are and your, what you are willing to contribute. You only want your time. 

Mhm hmm.

To contribute. And make sense of– You know what? I may not good– I mean, I’m not this, but I’m good in this? Once you know that, one you know those things, then you focus on that. You'll be more productive–

Mhm hmm.

Because it's that the area that you want to highlight in your life, and it will make you as a human being say, “Okay, you know what? I'm a good painter.”

Mhm hmm. 

You know what? I can be. I'm a good mechanic. 

Yeah. 

And because you understand you, your self, wellbeing and then your, your, your gift?

Mhm hmm. 

That's it in the front of your sense of po–

Mhm hmm.

Purpose. That the mental health be accessible.

And do you recommend people out to mental health? Or like if someone comes to you and you can tell they need, uh, they need mental help support mental, like they, they need some. Do you have places, you were like, does RCHP have a person you can send them to?

Yeah.

Who, like, specializes in?

We have that, but you know. That's the time I, if not, I say, “okay, maybe it's beyond,” you know–

[overlapping, inaudible]

Sometimes, you know, sometimes in our case, they'll flag you. They say, “Oh no, this one's totally too much.” But once the, it's come to the sense of, “Okay, you know what? When they come here, put it in they, in the, in the level.”

Mhm. 

The way you access the bene– Public benefit, that, this one also will be part of the thing. Once you looked at the hospital, before, you know. Because this is a person, I feel like, once it is in the system, in the system, it's easy, but you know? We help refugees.

Mhm.

We help people who are having the same bad luck. But–

Mhm hmm.

It can be, you know, why I'm saying that? You're coming in this country. [pause] There’s a reason for that. Um, most of the time, 90%, it's a wall or some sort of, you know, abuse or or all these things. Violence [inaudible]. And they've come here. 

[01:09:02]

Do you think that you will be, you'll be, really who you are? After this trauma? You kidding? Am I bad? No, I believe in it, the time did with it. [inaudible] Okay. You know what? This is my path that does define who I am and who I want to be. That we embark. And the system wants to saying like, okay, uh. In the– I think that maybe we can, uh, include for the refugee. Especially, it helped them to definitely assist them in housing structures. You know, some other thing, like why I'm seeing, like, benefits. How they're working. They believe it's for free, but there's someone who paying that bill.

Right.

If it's tax payer and above, because they don't see the other side, the scenario, the whole thing has gone. They believe it's for free. They don't feel that there is somebody who’s, who’s paying for it, or, you know. You find it, you can go for two, three, something, but it's, it doesn't make the money. 

Mhm.

If you open the page, you know what this is– I’m, I'm the one who's paying these expenses. You are your things for free. And the wealthy can come and have the awareness, you know. So this is how this thing is working at this time of year, coming here, like this.

Mhm.

Yeah, but this– No one want to be for, for free!

[chuckles]

You want them to be a good citizen.

Mhm.

But because they don't understand the system, they may take longer to go, to go out the system. So we need the more awareness, how the system is working, how this benefit that coming in.

Mhm.

And helping you. And then, you know?

Mhm hmm.

Yeah.

There’s that does that big sea, you're saying you're dropped into a sea and it’s like “How is this gonna work?” [laughs]

[laughs]

Just, how is this working! 

Yeah.

Just paddling as hard as you can. 

Yeah.

Okay. [clap]  Beautiful. You have a meeting in seven minutes. 

Yeah.

Thank you for spending so much time with me. Is there anything else that you want to say? [pause] 

[inaudible].

Okay, I’ll stop this recording. 

[01:11:25]