Mary is an asylee who discusses leaving Turkey after Erdoğan came into power. She is a dentist who first got involved with I-RISE when she was trying to obtain an equivalency letter to work in the United States.
“There is no one problem. For example, our parents are saying, ‘No, it’s going to be okay. Don’t be sad! Don’t be– don’t see like that! Don’t see bad, that!’ Yeah, but, uh, no, I can’t see the situation. There is no one problem. There is– there is no justice with the Erdoğan problem.”
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TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Ashley Teague
Interview conducted remotely
May 29, 2021
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
00:00:00
[inaudible] Recording in progress. And then I have to say:
Hi, uh, my name is Ashley Teague. And we are here, it’s today, May 29th, 2021. And we are, um. [tsk] Uh, doing a recording on Zoom, um, because, you know, there’s a pandemic, so we’re not in person. And, um, I’m, today, interviewing– Will you please tell me your name and, and, spell it for us?
Yeah, uh, my name is Mary, uh, M-A-R-Y.
Great. And, um, will you please tell me, uh, the year you were born? And– and where– where and when you were born?
Yeah, uh, my birthday is, uh, 1995 birth year. And, uh, I was born in Turkey.
And, um, are there any stories around your birth, like the day of your birth that your family tells?
Yeah, actually. Uh, I born in, uh, 15 August. And, uh, my name is Mary. Uh, I’m– I’m not sure but, I heard that, uh, this day is– a special day about, um, [pause] Mary. Christians. Mother Mary.
[overlapping] Mother, Mother of Jesus.
Yeah! Mother of Jesus. It’s a special day. And I born that day.
[overlapping] Is that why–
[overlapping] And my name is Mary. [chuckle]
Is that why you were named Mary, or were you gonna be named Mary anyway?
Uh, actually, I don’t think so. They know that. They knew that. While they are putting my name. But, uh, they wanted to put my name, uh, call my name. I named after, actually yeah. I named after, uh, Jesus, uh, mother. Mother’s name. Yeah.
Beautiful.
Yeah
Um. Are there any stories, or, are there– Do you have any memories from early– early childhood? Like, do you have any– You know how– some first memories?
Yeah!
[overlapping] Do you know what your actual first memory was? Oh, you do!
Yeah! [laughs] Uh, I was three years old. And my mother, uh, was going to hospital for my, um– Younger brother’s, uh, birth.
And you remember it?
Yeah, I remember that! I was playing with a train. Yeah. [laughs]
Um. And so– so you– You mention your mother. Who else, um, was around in your childhood? Like, who, um, were the, like, parents, grandparents, cousins? Who was, like, sort of, formative in– in your childhood? Who was in the picture family wise?
[00:02:55]
Yeah, actually. Uh, we were living in Istanbul and all of my other relatives ex– Uh– They were– they were, uh, in our origin state? Like, in town. They were so, uh, they were so far. But, uh, I grow with my mother and father. And my two siblings. [breath]
Um. And the pla– The origin city where your exta– Where your relatives were. Is that a small town? Is it rural country or city?
Yeah, uh, it– it’s like, uh, you know, mmm– Istanbul is close to Europe? Uh, but in Turkey there is an Anatolia place? Anatolia area? And they were living, eh, in the middle of the Anatolia.
Okay. And, um. Did you have any childhood heroes? Like, who did you look up to? Who– who were your favorite people when you were a kid?
Oh, when I was a kid?
Heroes, or like, role models, or, you know. [pause] Teachers, maybe, or any–
Yeah! I have a teacher. I ha– I had a teacher and she was my role model. [laughs]
What did she teach? What grade, or when did you know her?
Um– Actually, uh, she was a Turkish teacher. And, uh, she was so, uh– Different height. She– she was– she was not– she is not, uh– Like, ah, you know what? She, well, [stammers] she has, uh– Yeah, she lives he– Her life, like as a child, but as an– as an adult.
Mhm.
And she has so many heights. She was so creative. Yeah. She understand everyone, like a little child or an adult. You know, sometimes, because adults are– for adults, hard to understand childs. But we were like. When I was talking with her, I was talking, like, uh, my friend.
Mhm.
She was so brave.
Mhm.
She was, like, strong woman. Yeah. She was strong woman.
And so, and so it also sounds like she’s someone who made you feel like– Seen. Made you feel, like, heard, like, [overlapping, inaudible]
[overlapping] Yes, actually, seen! Because, uh, when I was a child, uh, I feel like am older child. [laughs] Yeah, my mind is my ideas are different from my friends, and sometimes it’s hard to understand or, er– Yeah. Or talk with my friends and actually I didn’t have so many friends when I was child. [chuckles] [sniff]
[00:05:55]
Um. And why do you think that was? That you– Felt different from them or, more grown up, or–
I’m, I’m not sure. Maybe I’m the oldest, uh, child in my [laughs] family? Because of that and, uh– I le– I grow in a family which has, um– A, economic problems. Like, economic hardness. Yeah. [pause] Because of that maybe I was a grown child. [chuckles]
You grew up faster, yeah.
Yeah.
And, um. And, so how many siblings did you have?
Uh. Two.
Two. And a brother, and? [overlapping] Two brothers?
[overlapping] A sister.
[overlapping] A brother and a sister?
[overlapping] No, one brother, yeah. My brother is the, uh, youngest one.
Okay. And that’s the memory you have with the train, when you’re playing with the train. It was–
Yeah, yeah. [chuckles] Yeah.
And were you close to your siblings? Were they friends, did you play with them a lot, or?
Yeah, actually, you know what? It is sooo funny. Um. [clears throat] [pause] My youngest brother, yeah, I said, my youngest, uh, my youngest sibling, uh, born when I was three? Uh, we don’t have a big, uh, age gap. But they are seeing me like a mother. [smack] Yeah.
That’s a lot of responsibility.
Yeah! [laughs]
Did they go into, um– medicine and science like you did?
Um. My, uh, brother is a chef? And yeah, my sister is, uh, my– my sister has chemistry bachelor. But, uh, she wants to, uh, go to medical or dental school, too. [chuckle]
Do you think, I mean, I’ll just put word– This is– this is my words, but you're very smart, I think. And to be able to go into, you know, to be a doctor. You have to be very smart. Do you think– did you feel that as a difference growing up? Did you feel, like, distance between other kids in that way? You know, you talked about talking to adults, which–
Mmmm– Actually, no. Uh, my friends are– successful peop– Yeah, not, the other childs are successful peoples too, but, um, I have– An emotional difference. And– and, you know. Uh, every mind has a way.
Mhm hmm.
And my way was so boring for them. Yeah! They were saying that! [laughs]
[laughs]
Because I was thinking like an adult!
Mhm hmm.
Yeah, I don’t actually, I didn’t know that while I was a child. You know, I was a chil– Yeah. Children? But yeah, they were saying that.
[laughs]
I was boring. [laughs]
[00:09:02]
Um. So, uh. Oh, that’s interesting. So the difference between, like, mental and emotional sort of maturity. And was, may I ask, was religion or spirituality, um–
Yeah!
Part of your life? [pages turning]
Ah, I’m Muslim. [pause] And my family is, too. [pause]
And, um, was your communi– Your extended community Muslim? Were other people at your school, or was that a unique experience? Like, did you grow up in a Muslim community or was it?
Yeah, actually. Uh– [pause] I– I went to normal public school. Normal public school. And I didn’t ask to people what they are religious, but, you know, in Turkey most of people are Muslim. But we have, uh, different communities. Because, you know, in Islam, there is different ways. [chuckles] And they are sometimes so strange to each other. But we have, yeah.
Different sects of the religion. Different– Versions.
[overlapping] Yeah! It’s. Yeah, it’s different versions, yeah. [clears throat] Actually, uh, in Turkey there is so many secular people too. Yeah, we– we were all together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you, um– What did your parents do? What was their work? Did they have careers?
Uh, yeah! Um, my father is a technician. Not, uh, graduated from university. Yeah, he is coming from kitchen. [laughs] We are saying that in Turkish. Yeah. Um. [clears throat] And my moth– Uh, my mother is a housewife. [pause] Yeah, actually my father is a labor.
Laborer, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. [pause] Um, they must be so proud.
[laughs] I hope! [laughs]
[overlapping] Since you went to medical school. Um, oh, do you remember falling in love for the first time? That’s one of my favorite questions.
Yeah, I falled in love when I was a child. You know, it’s classic to my teacher! [laughs loud] Yeah! It was s’pposed to be– I– I was thinking it was love. Yeah. [laughs]
How old were you?
Ummmm– [pause] 14? Yeah. 14.
And tell me how you met your, um, husband now. How’d you guys meet?
Oh, we met in, uh, library. In our University.
And did he– did he come talk to you or did you talk– go to talk to him, or? How did it go, how did it go?
Yeah! [chuckle] Actually, uh, we saw each other at– You know what? Actually, in school, uh, he was always, uh– [pause] Trying to told me or trying to show himself to me, but I was always ignore him. [laughs] I don’t know. I, uh– [pause] I didn’t, uh– [pause] Like, uh. I just. [pause] [sniff] Uh. [pause]
[00:12:30]
Yeah, I don’t trust to mens. I don’t know why. [chuckles]
Mhm.
I was like, “Oh, I have classes. I have a– [pause] Uh, something to do.” ‘Cause I was in school. “And I can’t see anyone.”
[overlapping] Mhm.
“I should focus to my, uh– class.” I was like that, yeah. I always ignore him. But, uh, one day, uh, I was so bored. Uh, I left the school. I went to, do you know– Maybe you don’t know. Uh, Üsküdar. There’s a sea on the, um– Istanbul? Uh, to rule– to be relaxed. I went there because I was listening on my earphones. [laughs] And seeing, uh, sea. Yeah. And I looked Br– Barack was there too. Yeah! And he came to, uh, me to say, “Hi.” And I said, “Hi,” and I said– Oh! He asked to me, uh, “Do you wanna drink tea? I– I was going to meet my, met, uh, I was going to met with my, uh, friend. You can join us.” And I said, “No thank you.” Then, uh, after this day, after one week, uh, we were, uh, following each other on Instagram? And he writes a poem in Instagram, a post. And it was written, “I wait in the same bay,” uh, eh, uh, “at the same day, at the same area, uh, for you, but you didn’t came. You didn’t come, and I went with a broke heart.” He felt like that. Yeah.
Aw!
And I understand that! He write that for me! Yeah! And from DM, I write “Hi Barack.” Uh. “You asked me for a tea but I was not, uh, not ready for that. Do you wanna drink tea?” I asked to him, actually. [laughs]
[laughs]
Then, yeah. After this, uh, meeting, I asked to him, he didn’t say anything. But I know he likes me. And I said, “Okay, we should put everything to table!” [laughs] “We should post that!” Then– Yeah. It start like that. [chuckles]
[00:15:00]
And, um, and so you had seen them around school, but you didn’t– did you know if he was the, um, same religion as you? Did that matter to you? That he– that you shared that?
Um, actually, I was not sure.
Mhm.
Mhm hmm.
But would that have mattered in the end, if he was– Hadn’t been?
How? [audio garbles] Could you ask that again?
Did you, um. Would it matter to you– would you have wanted to marry someone of a different– if he had not had the same religion, or did you know you wanted to marry someone of the same religion?
Mmm– Actually, uh, I have never thought about that, but, uh, my father and mother was so open-minded. I don’t think so– they are– it is not going to bother them.
They would– they would just want you to be happy.
Yeah! Yeah. Actually, my father always said– say that. Actually, my mother was, uh, my mother– my mother once, always, “You should marry.” Because I have never think about marriage.
Mhm.
Because I was thinking, marriage is– I have a thing, and you don’t have to get that. It’s not logical for me, wasn’t! Yeah. [laughs] And my mother always worrying me. “Why, why, if, what if,” uh, “she is not going to marry.” Like that. But, uh, my father always, uh, praying for me. Uh, “Make, love, marriage!” [laughs] Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Are your parents a love marriage?
No! No. Actually, it’s so funny! Um– My father’s name is in English, Joseph. Yeah. And my mother’s, eh, my mother is Zuleyha. I’m sure it’s written on the, uh, Bible or, uh, other– other religious books. Uh, there is a story about a prophet, uh, Joseph, and a woman.
Mhm.
If you know that. Yeah, and a love story, and their names are matching like that. [chuckles]
That’s so funny.
Yeah, that’s so funny! [laughs]
Do you know how old they were when they were paired up?
Um–
When they got married?
Yeah, actually. They– they– when they married, mmm– [pause] [tsk] My mother was– twenty? Yeah, twenty. And my father– [pause] Yeah, twenty-six.
And, um, did– did your parents like, uh– Your now husband? Did they like him when they first met him? Did they get along?
Oh my God! You know what? I was worrying my– how my, uh, how my father– how is my father going to do?
[overlapping] Yeah.
Or act? But, uh, you know what? While they were talking, um, yeah, actually, uh, we met on my aunt’s home? Uh, Barack and, uh, his sister. Ay, [stammering] He doesn’t have sister. Ah, his brother came to, uh– My aunt’s home? And, uh, my family, too. And we prepared some food. And while they were, uh, talking, my father and Barack, my– my husband. Um– [pause] My father came to another room and asked me, “Mary, um, he is looking so nervous, nervous. I’m not doing anything wrong, right?” He ask that and I feel like, oh my God! [laughs]
[00:18:52]
[laughs] [pause] Aw. That’s so sweet.
Yeah!
Um, and how old were you when you got married?
[overlapping] Oh, yeah!
[overlapping] How long did you guys take?
Um– We date, like– Mhm. [pause] One and– one year. More than one year. But not one and a half.
Mhm hmm.
Then we married and we are married for three years.
Mhm.
We married while we were, uh, students!
So you met when you’re students at under– undergrad? Or when you were getting your– Cause you have an advanced degree, right? Tell me about your school.
We– Yeah, actually, yeah. Uh, in Turkey, dental school, that’s– that’s dental school is five years. Uh, but I had an English class before, uh– My main degree? Uh, it’s total six years? Uh, dental school in my university. And, uh, medical school is seven years.
Oh top of that?
Yeah. Total.
So when did– how long– where did you guys meet? What, what part of that?
Yeah, um, end of the third year. [laughs]
End of the third year. Okay.
Yeah.
And so then you were married, you’re both still in school?
Yeah.
And in your– Early twenties, then? I guess?
Yeah, but I was 23.
23. Okay.
Yeah, 20, 22 and a half, yeah.
And– and then what did you do after school? Did you work, or?
Mhm, no, actually. After school, government, uh, run your, um– Security check? And, uh, before the security check, we left. We had to left the country.
Mhm hmm.
And we left. We came to here.
Can you tell me just a little bit– It doesn’t have to be personal, but just a little bit about, um, for people who don’t know about Turkey very much, a little bit about the political, um, tensions there? The coup? What year that was, like, the. [audio garbles] Could you just give us, like, the brief history lesson? You’re so smart about sharing the history of Turkey!
[00:21:13]
[laughs] Actually, yeah, uh, actually, Turkey has a different dynamic about political things. Uh, when I was a child, ah, you know what? Eh, you don’t even, can– Can’t even cover your head to go to school. Yeah. You can’t ca– You can’t go to school with your hijab.
Mmm.
Yeah. Normally, people thinks, uh, Turkey is an Islamic country, but it’s not. Firstly, I should say that it’s not. It’s a secular, uh– Sec– Secular country. [clears throat] And when I was a child, eh, it was forbidden. You can’t cover your head while you are going to school. You can’t go school with that. Then after, uh– Government change with, uh, [inaudible], democratically. And, uh, Erdoğan came to government. And, uh– [inaudible, overlapping]
[overlapping] And that was in early 2000s, that Erd– Erdoğan?
Yeah. Yeah. And after that, eh, everything was changing slowly.
Mhm.
Uh, but I didn’t like this change. I didn’t like, uh, before Erdoğan, and I didn’t like after Erdoğan, too. Because they are like, uh– Aside and aside. It’s– it’s not a co– Uh, you know, [pause] Two sides are– Radical. Radical, uh– Ant- religiously– [stammers] Religious and radical religious. I don’t– I don’t– I don’t like two of them. [chuckles]
Mm.
Yeah. Uh, and after Erdoğan, he was trying to make more religious. Country.
Mm.
And, but, after one point– He start to steal from country. And, uh, you know, he was trying to put his mans to government, or everywhere. And some of police catch this. And publish this things. And after that, they start to– And this, uh, police were, um, from my community. I was, uh, join a community and they were from there. They were like a dialogue movement.
Mhm.
Dialogue moment. Uh– [pause] Inter–religious, inter–cultural. Yeah.
[00:24:01]
And they did that, then after that, er, Erdoğan get mad? And they fight. Like, not bombs, not guns. You know. The political fight.
Mhm.
And after that, uh, there was a coup attempt. And– but it’s not like a coup attempt.
Mhm.
It was so weird. They– At the same time they said, “Oh, they did that.” But how can you know, right? At the same time.
Mhm.
You can’t know. Yeah. And, it was all– Funny. Like, they fooled the, uh, peoples in Turkey. And, uh, Erdoğan makes, eh, Erdoğan made a– himself a coup attempt. To get more power.
Mhm.
And after that, there is– there was a real type, a real war against the [audio garbles, inaudible] people. And it’s funny. Before this publishment, this published, uh, wrong things. Uh, Erdoğan was supporting this community! But after he is wrong things.
Mhm hmm.
Yeah. He was against to this community. Then, uh, he started to put peoples, uh, to jails. For stupid things. Like, you help a book. But this book is, uh– [pause] It’s collected from government. It’s not a secret book. Thief. You can find any bookstore. [chuckle] It’s like, or there is a bank and this bank, you know there is– Legal bank. And if you have a– a–[pause] Account in this bank? It’s a legal bank. Government take you and put to jail.
Mhm.
He started to doing that. And, you know, we were from this movement and we worried about our future because they were kidnapping people, they were torturing, they were abusing, they were killing peoples.
Mhm.
They were lu– Lul– Losing peoples. And most of people doesn’t know where their fathers, or they math– Mothers. You know? And because of that he said, before security check, we should left country. For, [laughs] our children’s safety. We don’t have children, but, you know, future children. [smack] Yeah. And because of that, we left country.
And Erdoğan came in when it became like, voting, you said, when the vote– But he’s then President ever since. And so has there been votes and he just always wins, or has he said no more voting?
[00:27:02]
No, no, no. There is no, uh, no more voting. He, uh, he was still, he was stealing votes. Actually.
Mhm. Mhm.
Yeah. But, it’s weird. Uh, most of people wants Erdoğan too, in Turkey. You know what, because, before Erdoğan, there was an, uh– Uh. [pause] You know, I don’t know what do you call the right side and left side. Like, Dem, Democrat–
[overlapping] You just call it right side, and– Right side and left– You mean in the United States?
Yeah, right side and left. Do you have? That?
[overlapping] We do.
Yeah.
Ours are called “conservative” and “liberal”.
Yes! Uh. Liberals–
[overlapping] Democrats and Republicans.
[overlapping] Were, were. Uh. [pause] So too strict.
Mhm.
You know? They forbidden al– Uh, actually, beginning of the, uh, Turkey. Uh, Arabic adhan was forbidden as are our, um, prayer calling. Do you know adhan?
Yuh huh.
Uhh––
It was forbidden?
Yeah, it’s forbidden.
The– the daily prayer calls?
Yes.
Wow.
Uh, my grandfather, when he was a child, uhm he, uh, attacked because, uh, he read secretly Quran at home.
Mhm.
Turkey was, like, bad at the beginning.
[overlapping] Even when your grandfather–
[overlapping]And because of that– Yeah. And because of that, you know what? Uh. You know. They are an– Uneducated, the conservative population. And they have a memory about that. Because of that, he– they support– Erdoğan. But they don’t know what they are doing.
Right. Yeah.
Actually, yeah. Uh, maybe, I’m not sure, but maybe he didn’t steal vote. He– win– This election, maybe.
Mhm.
Because all of people doesn’t want– don’t– don’t want to, uh– [breath] That.
Yeah.
This, uh, liberal side.
Mhm hmm.
Because, yeah. You understand me, right? Sorry about my English. [chuckles]
No, I understand what you’re saying.
Mhm hmm.
The conservative– You, you’re talking about– I also– You also, it was helpful when you said there’s become these extremes of like–
Yeah.
Deeply anti–religious, no religion, forbid it–
[overlapping] Yes.
You can’t have [inaudible], you can’t wear the hijab. And then the other side, that there’s no in-between of, like, we can have all of these things, but they’re not–
Yeah, there is–
The other side–
Yeah.
That says, like, “Nope! We need all religion, you must be–”
[overlapping] Yeah, [inaudible]
[overlapping] “If you’re not our religion, you’re the wrong relig–” You know.
Yeah. England, uh, we told– Even if you are not believing, uh, their way. You are not religious, too.
Mhm hmm.
For example, me. I’m not religious for them.
Right. [pause]
[00:29:58]
Um. And when you said, when you were a little girl and you had to go to school, um, that you weren’t allowed to wear your hijab? [overlapping, inaudible]
No, I was not. I was not wearing hijab. Actually, uh, hijab is, uh– Yeah. It’s written in Quran, you should, uh, cover your head after your, you know, uh, first period.
Mhm.
Like, when you became a teenager. Like that.
And did you face, um– When you were little, do you remember facing oppression or people because of–
Yes.
Specifically?
Yeah. They were seeing you, because you are religious. You are uneducated. You are uncultured.
Mhm.
Yeah. You know what? Even if– even I was at dental school. My friends, my secular friends were lo– Ah, looking, seeing me same. It’s like, “You don’t know anything. You can’t– you can’t– you can’t have any idea about movies or music.” It’s like that.
Mhm hmm.
Do you understand me? It’s so weird, right?
Yeah, a lot of misunderstanding.
[overlapping] I’m a human, okay? [laughs] I have, you know, emotions. And, you know what? Uh, we were– I’m not– I don’t think so, they were doing a film nights with their fathers, but we were, uh– Movie nights. We were doing movie nights, my father. [chuckles]
Mhm.
[pause] It’s weird. They were always talking like me, yeah! I– I was always. Another side. When I was a child, when I was at university, an adult. But I– I learned, uh, to not care.
Mhm.
Then.
Yeah.
And I have never care– I have never cared, then. If I think about that? I can’t, uh, walk.
Yeah.
In my way. Yeah.
I remember you telling me a story. Would you want to share this story, or would you rather not, of when– I feel like it was a teacher at school, who would, like, single you out or made you stand up and was picking on you because of your hijab.
Oh, yeah! I was wearing a long s– skirt. And he say to me, in middle of the class, “You, if you don’t wear right, you are not going to be scien– Scientist. You can’t be!” [pause] And–
How old were you then? Was that in dental school? Or was that when you were little?
No, no, it– I– it was my, uh, I was in my high school. [laughs] It was weird.
[overlapping] If you don’t dress right, you ca–
You know, [overlapping, inaudible] my skirt!
[overlapping, inaudible]
Really!
Yeah. Wow. Mhm. And no one would stand up for you. No one spoke up, people just let it happen.
Well, I was, you know, I was a teenager and I was [inaudible]. But, after that, uh– He call my name and I, uh– Go to outside of the class, and say, “I’m sorry Maria.” But I say to him after, I was so, uh, stubborn! And I said– Actually, it’s not stubborn, but I was– Yeah! I feel power in my side! [laughs] Yeah, yeah!
[00:33:21]
In– inside of me. And I said, “Oh my God,” uh, “That’s okay. You can be sorry in special! You can’t say that in public and you can’t say that, say sorry in private!”
Right.
“And I hope you are going to,” uh, “be a– be open minded in a day!”
Mhm. Yeah.
Yeah.
So then you– you– you guys decided, “We need to leave here.”
Yeah. For the safety of our– our future and if we want to have children.
And what was that journey, or, like, what are the steps that one must take to do that aft– Um, to, either be a refugee or an asylee status. How did you– I wouldn’t eve– I wouldn’t even know where to begin.
Actually, it’s so funny. Uh. We– maybe we– we couldn’t come to here. But, um, I’m not sure, and I work. Actu– My husband has, uh, visa, tourist visa, but I didn’t have. And I applied for visa and in my birthday.
Mhm.
I take visa. [laughs] Yeah!
It is a special day for Marys!
Yeah! That was like, oh my God! It’s a gift from God! Yeah. And, uh, we came to here. And we applied for asylum.
Mhm.
Yeah.
And so you– you came here first. You came to–
Yeah, came here first. Yeah, asylee is meaning that, yeah.
You didn’t have to stay at any, like, in-between center or camp or anything.
No, no. Because you have a danger about for your life? And you, yeah. You have right to that.
And where did you, what state did you, did you first come? We’re in New Jersey now, is this where you started?
No, uh, no. We came to first state, uh, Texas, Austin? Yeah, then we moved to here, uh, one month later.
Mhm hmm.
Mhm hmm.
And, um, and what was being in Texas, Austin like? Was that, like, you knew it was a temporary thing or–?
Yeah, temporary. Because we didn’t have any place to stay and, uh, one of our friends we’re staying with there. And we stayed their home and, uh, actually, uh, he was, yeah. Uh, he was okay, staying there because he called us that, “You should come to there before arresting.”
Okay.
And, but, his– yeah– Our friend's wife was not happy because we were there. And we have to left them. And we don’t have– we didn’t know anyone. We didn’t know anywhere in New Jersey and we came to here by car. With an old car, very old car, twenty and seven hours drive. [laughs] Yeah! And– We find the best basement under three days. And we moved to there.
[00:36:25]
In a basement.
Yeah! We came to here with, uh– [pause] Four and half thousand dollars. We didn’t have no money.
Wow.
Yeah!
So you were in a basement for a whil– And– and why did you decide to come to New Jersey? What, were you in touch with an organization, or?
No, actually. Uhh–
[overlapping] You were just trying to figure it out?
We heard that– [laughs] That’s funny. We heard that, uh, in New Jersey these case things are faster than the other states.
Oh, okay.
Because they, uh, the, uh– Officers knows our situation in Turkey people?
Okay.
And because of that, yeah. They don’t have to search extra search for that. And they know us, and because of that we came to here because we can explain ourselves easily.
Yeah. And how do you– how did you first reach out to say, like, you arrived here. And you get off the plane, and how do you, when do you first say, like, I'm claiming asylee status. Like, help me. Help. When you first, who do you first talk to, [overlapping, inaudible]
[overlapping] No, you are– No, no, no. You, you are not pleeing that! [laughs] Ah, you are, uh, preparing your, uh, papers? And you are, uh, sending to, uh– USIS. [phone dings]
Okay.
Yeah!
U, USIS. U. U–S–I–S or something like that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah! Yeah. Yeah. [chuckles]
[Editor’s note: Mary is referring to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.]
And, um, okay. So then– then you have to have– So you have to take in, like, all– You have to have done all this work to somehow document your story.
Yeah.
When it wasn’t safe to probably be documenting [overlapping, inaudible]
[overlapping] Yeaaaah, that’s– that was so hard. [laughs]
What kind of documentation do they need? Like, emails and–
Uh.
Like, written?
Emails, uh, letters from same situation peoples. Uh, newspaper. New, news, actually, yeah. And, you know, there is some acts. They are green and proof of them.
Mhm hmm.
And, uh, sometimes, we. Yeah. We were– we were, uh, going to psychiatrist because of that.
Yeah.
We became sick. We signed these papers. There was all those things, yeah.
And, um, what is your, like, impression of– New Jersey, I guess, or the United States or, like, culture here? Living here? What is your, sort of, initial impressions?
When I– when I came to here [background noise] I said, “Oh my God, there– there is so green!” Because, uh, my main stay in Turkey is green too? Uh, and I love green so much. But– and you know, Texas is not so green, too. Yeah.
[chuckles]
[00:39:09]
Actually. And I saw it, I said, “Oh my God! There is so good!”
Mhm.
I love. Yeah, because, when I was a child, Istanbul was green too. But they cut, they are– they are hater of trees?
Yeah.
The government, uh, in Turkey. And it’s not green now, but when I was a child, there was so many trees and I love trees. Yeah.
Um. What about, like, um, I don’t know. Food and people and transportation and community and, like– How? And just society and how things are working? What’s been your experience with that?
[overlapping] Yeah.
Has it been an easy or hard adjustment? In what ways?
Actually, first time it was so hard because, you know, we have a– a special diet in Islam? Uh, it ha– It has to be, uh, halal for us. Meat. And– Until that, uh, we eat vegetables or, potato, actually, I didn’t. I don’t know. I didn’t know the farmers market or anything and I was always buying from, uh, Walmart or anywhere. Potato. I don’t know buy! [laughs]
Yeah.
It’s so stupid, when I was– when I am thinking now! We eat potato, then we learned spa– er, we learned shopping centers? And we go. Yeah.
Yeah the food– food part can be hard. Finding.
Yeah! Yeah, but, after learning, that’s easy because food is cheap in here.
Mhm.
Mhm hmm!
And how did you get in touch with the, um– um, I RISE or the Reformed Church of Highland Park, I don’t know how you know it best, or what you call it.
[overlapping] Yeah, it’s funny, actually. I was trying to, uh– Take my board [inaudible] for being dentisting here. And I need a paper. Ah, like a correlati– A equivalency letter. From ECE? And, uh, when I was trying to, you know, we don’t have so much money, but I have to– Do that. And I was trying to, uh, doing my, uh, paperwork. And I saw something, end of the, uh, what, website, uh, “Do you want to,” um, “give money?” Like that. Like, yeah, donate. Yeah. Donate. And I thought, “What is for donate? Is it donate is for what?” And I saw, “oh, I can get this paper free if I can touch with them. In touch with them.” Yeah.
Mhm.
And I, I told Pictem and they said, “You should see,” uh– [pause] “A center. Which we choose. You should go there and you sho– They should see you and they are going to write an email to us and we are going to do that free.” Like that.
[00:42:06]
[overlapping] Okay.
And I RISE was this, uh, one of the centers?
Oh, cool!
Yeah! And I went, and I went with the peoples and I loved them and we are still together. [laughs]
Um, is it an equivalency letter?
Yeah!
Wha– To say, so it says, like, this is your education level.
Yes, yes.
Okay. And so you need that. What else do you need? So you can’t just come here and be like, “I’m a dentist. I trained as– I went to [whispers] seven, eight, nine, ten– You went to like eleven years of school.” Like, you can’t just say, “I’m gonna be a dentist.” Do they– what do they– you have to start all over?
No, actually. Uh, I need to, uh, take two board exams? NBDE? Then I need to get TOEFL? I need to take TOEFL?
[Editor’s note: NBDE is the National Board of Dental Examinations. TOEFL is the Test of English as a Foreign Language.]
Mhm hmm.
Then after that, uh, I’m going to apply for a– for foreign trained dentist programs in different schools? And if I accepted from them, I should study two years. After that, I can be a dentist in here. It’s hard! But, uh, yeah, I have to fight for that because I don’t have any choice! [laughs]
Yeah!
I have to work in a mall or I have to study for that. Because I, uh, worked eight months in a mall shopping center? And it was hard times for me because I was, uh– Low paid? And, you know, uh, my boss was Turkish but he– Was so strict than the other employees to me.
Mhm.
Just so. He was– he was not sup– supporter. Not logically, not mentally, not. [chuckles] Money! No, no. That was different.
Um. So TO– TOEFL is the test of English as a foreign language. And you do your–
[overlapping] Yes.
Boards, and then you have to go to more school, so that’s a lot.
[overlapping] Yes!
And– and you have to figure out how to survive and, like, be able to buy food while you’re doing all that.
Yes.
Um, and, a lot of people I’ve talked to talk about how– [pause] Um, in the beginning, I guess, like, just after arriving or starting out, that people experience a lot of depression.
[tsk] Yes, yes.
Yeah, is that something that you, that you guys–
Yes. Actually, I lived, uh, yeah, I lived eating problem? Eating disorder? Um, and I live anxiety and depression and I’m still using medication for that. And– Yeah. And my hus– My husband too. And I, I started to, uh– Solve my eating problem? I gain, one-hundred, yeah, uh, pound, uh, a one hundred–
Kilograms?
Pounds. Yes.
Okay.
And I’m trying to, uh, lost that? Yeah. And trying to ke– uh– yeah. I’m taking medication for that. I’m still– Because I’m still seeing, um– [pause] Wild sleeping, like, I don’t know. Dream! I’m still dream– Uh, seeing dreams about Turkey. They are coming after me, they are asking me still.
[00:45:34]
Nightmares.
Yeah, yeah! I’m still seeing nightmares. I have– I have nightmares, still. It’s less, more than when I came to here, but my husband still see that.
What helps? Is it just time? Or is it– Like, what would be– What would help make things easier, better? Is it, like, having community? Having– Is there a way that the system could be easier? To not make it so difficult for people, or, you know, what do you think of–
Time. Time plus medication. Because you are ill. Like, you are, you have cold. It’s same thing. Not different. You have to– Wait and you have to take medication.
And so when– when– when you came here. Wha– And there’s, like, probably some services that you receive, I would think, as an asylee. Is mental health part of any services? Is there– Does anyone ever say to you, like–
No.
“Here’s a brochure, here’s how to get a therapist, or help with–”
No.
“It’s gonna be hard, it’s gonna be sad. Or there’s places to help.”
No, actually. I didn’t reach to mental health service because also I– I quit my, uh, medication and I didn’t use that for one year, and after one year I went to doctor, uh– uh, and general practitioner? And, uh, give– he give– he give me– he gave me this medication. I said [inaudible] He said, “You should start. You have trauma.” Yeah, “you,” uh, he said, “You have post traumatic,” uh, blah blah.
[overlapping] Stress? Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Yes. [pause] I’m using my medication. I don’t use drugs, I don’t use alcohol. [laughs]
You don’t drink, yeah.
(laughs) No.
You don’t even drink coffee? Do you?
Oh, no! I drink tea.
Coffee? Oh, you do, okay.
Yeah.
Caffeine!
[overlapping] But I don’t want! Yeah, my husband loves! But I doesn’t like because it makes me more anxious because caffeine– Yeah.
It does, it’s bad for the anxiety. Yeah, my husband–
Yeah.
Loves the way it smells. But he says it tastes disgusting.
Yeah, I like smells too! [laughs]
Um, and your husband was also a doctor!
Yes.
He was also a medical doctor. And so is he also going through similar process trying to get rein– Get reinstated as a doctor?
[00:48:01]
Actually, he is lucky because, mm. Lucky and unlucky. He, like, uh, he is a product train doc– uh, doctor? And, uh, he can go to a residency program. He don’t– he don’t– Yeah. He doesn’t have to go to school again. Uh, he can– Make, uh, his specialty program, he can go. Yeah. But he can’t go every program. For example, he can’t be a surgeon in USA.
Mhm. Ever? [overlapping] Or he has to–
[overlapping] Because they don’t accept them. [laughs] They are foreign-trained and they don’t accept them.
Mhm.
But, you know.
Do you have any hopes or dreams for the future that you're moving towards yet? Or that you’re– anything for the future that you’re like, “I want– this is what I– this is what I see.”
[laughs]
Like, in five years, in ten years, this is what my– I want to have a baby or I wanna, you know, I don’t know what.
Actually we don’t want to have a baby. Not yet. [clears throat] And we– Yeah, it’s people's choice but it came– it comes weird when you married and directly have a baby. You should know your wife! [laughs] Your husband. You are together, yeah. Anyway, uh– No! Ah, ah, but I’m dreaming about, um– I’m going to school and I’m going to have a separate home. Yeah. And, it’s– and it’s going to be our own home. Like, yeah, because we are living with my husband’s family now? They came to here too? Yeah.
How many people are in one home?
Um, we are not too much actually– Five. But it’s a big house. Yeah. Three bedroom.
Was there a time when you thought, maybe this is temporary and one day Turkey will be better and we can go back there? Or–
I don’t think so. Because it’s not– There is no one problem. For example, our parents are saying “No, it’s going to be okay. Don’t be sad! Don’t be– don’t see like that! Don’t see bad, that!” Yeah, but, uh, no. I can’t see the situation. There is no one problem. There is– there is no justice with Erdoğan problem.
Yeah.
Yeah. You know what? It could takes like fifty years.
It’s, yeah–
Fifty years.
It’s taken that many years to get here, right?
Yes!
[overlapping] Yes. There is a sickness and it’s not going to– Get off in five years, I don’t think so. And it can go worse. I can see that. And it’s became like that.
[00:51:06]
Yeah.
Not just me.
What have I not asked you that I should ask you, or what do you want to– what– what questions don’t I know? If you were interviewing you, what would you, uh–
Oh!
What’s missing from this story?
[pause] You can ask about family.
I can or I can’t?
You can.
About your family?
Yeah! What you are leaving your family like that.
Yeah, I didn’t wanna ask about that stuff in case you don’t– I know that it’s–
Oh! Yeah, I can talk about that. I can– Talk about it if you want.
Yeah, that’d be great. I just didn’t want to push that.
Yeah.
‘Cause I know it’s scary.
Yeah. Uh– [pause] My father is not Turkey– Is not in Turkey, but my, uh, family is in Turkey. Uh, my– my other, yeah– My siblings and my mother is in– they are in Turkey. And we are talking every day. And I’m trying to– uh, support them mentally from there. I’m trying to support my, uh– [pause] Husband’s family mentally in there. Um, yeah, and my father, too. And I’m like. [chuckles] My husband says, “You are like connections of all of them!” [laughs]
Yeah.
Going. Yeah. And– and I’m trying to, uh– [pause] Support myself, too. Because I’m– sometimes I’m not good, too. And it’s hard to learn that. Yeah.
Who supports you if you support everyone else?
[00:52:52]
My husband! Um. Me! [laughs]
And now the pets!
Ah, yeah! My pet! [laughs] I have a bird! Yeah. Her name is Citir. [laughs]
[inaudible]
Yeah!
And does your family want to come over? Or are you trying to convince them to, or were they–
They can’t. They can’t.
They can’t get a visa.
No. They can’t. They are waiting for my father.
To get the visa for them.
Yes.
And, um–
And they are in medication, too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um. And there’s– so you– you came as an asylee, but could they claim refugee status? Could they, like, or would that be too dangerous? It’d be very dangerous.
No, no, no. It can’t.
They just can’t.
Yeah, they can’t be refugee.
Why is that? ‘Cause they’re [overlapping, inaudible]
[overlapping] ‘Cause they don’t have right for that.
Ah.
Yeah.
And if they were a refugee, they might not get placed where you are.
Yeah.
They don’t have control over that. So they could be placed anywhere.
Mhm hmm.
Um. Okay, last question, because, you know, now I’ve made you sit on this for an hour, but–
[overlapping, inaudible]
It’s been so interesting! Thank you so much–
[overlapping] Yeah, you’re welcome!
For letting me take up so much time. I guess my last question is, like, if someone were to– If you– if someone were to make a movie or a play about your life, what would have to be in it?
Um– [pause] My child life, or my family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
‘Cause that’s part of your identity.
Yeah, actually. The main part, because, uh, my na– Uh, my situation, my hardness, and my family, uh– Makes me this, this, this me! [laughs]
Makes you who you are?
Yeah!
Beautiful. Now I’m gonna stop the–
[00:54:55]