Maevonia Caldwell

Maevonia Caldwell recounts moving from Georgia, to central Pennsylvania, to Rochester, New York during her childhood and teen years. In college she was active in the NAACP and was a Freedom Rider. Today, she is currently involved in the Lost Souls Project.

“Um, and– and we’re– we’re looking, as is the necessary work of– of anybody who cares about human rights– whether it’s that or some other, to, um, be sure that memories are not erased, uh, that are restored and respected.”
— Maevonia Caldwell

ANNOTATIONS

1. Medical Facilities Access in Rural America - Access to basic healthcare services is essential to sustaining good health, yet rural America has faced a plethora of access barriers since the beginning of the 20th century’s expansion of the healthcare system. Between the 1910s and 1940s, rural counties, specifically in the South, lacked access to hospital and laboratory facilities due to challenges of poverty, racial discrimation, and a lack of transportation. Available hospitals were primarily located in urban areas, so residents in remote rural areas had to rely on local practitioners and nurses, which were scarce. In 1929, The Committee on the Costs of Medical Care released a report on the disparity of medical care access between rural and urban areas. The South was reported as having one physician for around every 1,500 persons and urban cities were reported having one physician for around every 500-600 persons. In response to such health disparities, elderly women became midwives, nicknamed “granny” midwives, and took on the role of medically caring for their townspeople. Midwives are mainly known for their role in caring for pregnant women and infants, but they were also the first to respond to medical emergencies in their communities.
2. Non-Traditional Family Structures, Kinship - Due to centuries of familial separation and the forced labor of enslaved women, enslaved African Americans in the US developed a system of collective parenting out of necessity. Rooted in traditional West African kinship structures, the communal-based child-rearing of the antebellum era influenced the non-traditional family structures of African Americans throughout the 20th and 21st centuries. The majority of African American families were comprised of extended family units which included grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins; and children, whether orphaned or separated from their parents, would be cared for by these kin networks. These kinship relationships also extended beyond “traditional” bloodlines and included those not directly related to the family.
3. Sharecropping - Despite the issuing of the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 and the Union’s victory at the end of the Civil War in 1865, slavery continued to persist into the late 19th and early 20th centuries in the form of sharecropping. Sharecropping was a legal arrangement in which a landowner allowed a tenant to use their land in return for a share of the crops produced on that land. After the Civil War, many southern African American families looking for work rented land from White landowners and raised cash crops such as cotton, tobacco, and rice. Sharecroppers seldom owned anything and borrowed all their supplies, equipment, seeds, and even shelter from their landlord. Many also had no control over which crops were planted or how they were sold. After harvesting a crop, the landowner would sell it and apply its income toward settling the sharecropper’s account, but low crop yields and unstable crop prices forced sharecroppers into a perpetual cycle of debt and poverty.
4. The Great Migration - The years between 1916 and 1970 would come to be recognized as the greatest period of African American migration in American history. Roughly seven million African Americans left the South due to various “push” factors, such as economic exploitation, social terror, and political disenfranchisement; and migrated to developing urban cities in the North such as New York, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Cleveland. While the majority of African Americans in the early 20th century migrated due to promises of greater financial prosperity in the North, the oppressive laws of Jim Crow and racial etiquette of the South were significant factors for their migration. With the continued rise of the Redemption era, a period of time after the Civil War that marked White Southerners return to political and economic power with the vow to “redeem” themselves and their Southern “pride,” opportunities for southern African Americans to vote or hold office essentially disappeared. Job instability increased as the exploitation of sharecroppers kept them in a cycle of debt, poverty, and neo-slavery. For most African American communities, the quality of local housing and education remained poor at best. The ever-looming chance of lynching was a threat to those that failed to abide by Southern social conventions, and the daily racial etiquette constantly reminded African Americans that they were inferior to White Americans. Lacking even the most basic ability to protect their own or their communities, African Americans left the South in droves.
5. Resistance to Racism - The 1960s were defined as a decade of revolution and protest, marked by the progression of the Civil Rights Movement. Riots spurred on from decades of racial tensions weren’t uncommon and, as Mrs. Caldwell mentions in her interview, Rochester, NY went through its own racial turmoil in the mid 1960s. On the night of July 24, 1964, police officers responded to a call about an intoxicated young man at a dance being held on Nassau Street near Joseph Avenue. The officers arrested the young man, eliciting protest from attendees. After calling for backup, which included the K-9 unit, a source of years-long tension that African American residents deemed inhumane, the situation escalated and the following morning the city was declared a state of emergency. On the afternoon of July 26, 1,500 National Guard troops arrived to bring the rioting under control. In the wake of the riots there was over $1 million in property damage, 800 had been arrested, 350 people were injured, and 5 people had died.
6. Employment Discrimation - After the Rochester riot of 1964, spurred on from decades of racial tensions and the low employment rate of African Americans by the city, officials at city hall made a commitment to hire more minorities. But pioneering industries in Rochester, like Kodak, were not on board and sought to keep African American workers in menial paying jobs instead of higher paying blue collar positions. While some African Americans at Kodak did hold positions as scientists and senior-level administrators, minority employees were lacking in proportion. In the wake of the riots, a civil rights organization named FIGHT (Freedom, Integration, God, Honor, Today) was formed, advocating for the company to create a job-training program that would lead to hiring newly-trained African American workers. In their two-year battle, FIGHT pulled hardball tactics for their cause, such as showing up at Kodak headquarters with a group of supporters and demanding to meet with senior management, disrupting a shareholders' meeting, and challenging the corporation’s alleged discriminatory hiring practices. These confrontations graced the pages of prominent newspaper companies, such as The Wall Street Journal, and this eventually pushed Kodak to hire and train around 700 African Americans.
7. Colorism - Colorism, in blatant terms, is a product of racism that discriminates against darker-skinned peoples and gives privileges to those of a lighter skin complexion. Although the concept of colorism has existed for centuries, most likely beginning with Christian racial and religious superiority over Muslims during the Crusades, colorism in the United States has roots in slavery. From the beginnings of slavery in the US, the rape of female slaves by White owners resulted in the rise of a mixed-race class of individuals called mulattos. Not only did slavery systemically separate White people from African Americans, but created a color line between Mulattos and their darker-skinned counterparts. For example, slave owners would assign domestic house tasks to lighter-skinned slaves, most commonly the biracial children from White owners and female slaves, and more arduous field labor to darker-skinned slaves. Even after the end of slavery, lighter-skinned African Americans experienced greater economic and social privileges due to their affiliation to their White ancestry.
8. Implicit Bias in Education - Implicit biases are unconscious attitudes, stereotypes, and associations that affect one’s behavior and perception. In education, implicit bias often refers to unconscious racial or socioeconomic bias towards students, which can result in disadvantages for students of color, specifically, in this case, African American students. Based on systemic evidence first presented in 1969 by American sociologist Howard Schuman, a significant portion of the White population at the time believed race problems occurred with integration and resented the social advances African Americans strived for. This resentment flowed over all aspects of society, including education. White educators would hold assumptions about students’ learning behaviors and their capability for academic success based on their identities and/or backgrounds, and these assumptions would lead to detrimental outcomes. A teacher’s implicit biases are associated with lower expectations, worse instruction quality, less concern for fostering mutually respectful classroom environments, and left a negative impact on the academic achievement of minority students. There is also evidence suggesting bias contributes to the documented disparities in how minority students are disciplined.These biases still continue to this day, as a study done in 2020 conducted on a large sample of 68,930 teachers and over 1.5 million non-teachers concluded that that about 30% of respondents (including both teachers and non-teachers) expressed explicit pro-white/anti-Black bias and 77% expressed implicit pro-white/anti-Black bias.

Transcript: “I mean, I– I– um, so, my– my dad, um, went to school with me the next day and, um, w– you know, we had test scores or whatever Mom had in that little packet, um, [stammers] it was– Dad wanted to know what was deficient and what– you know, ‘cause Pennsylvania and New York are adjoining states. They’re not even– they’re not even, uh, separated by anything, um, and it– it just seemed very odd that in another northern state– it wasn’t like I was coming from Georgia, they did point out that I was born in Georgia, but, uh, I had, um, they thought that I needed– I needed to be back a grade. So my dad wasn’t having that, and he– he demanded that they give me, um, whatever tests they gave in that school, um, that he would sit in the back of the room while they did it, um, and obviously not be in a position to coach me at all, and they could have anybody else in the room that they wanted from the staff, who would also see that– that I was performing the work and that if I could do the work, um,  I was going to be put into seventh grade, my rightful grade, that day.”

Learn More: Tasminda K. Dhaliwal Quinn Mark J. Chin, Virginia S. Lovison, and David M., “Educator Bias Is Associated with Racial Disparities in Student Achievement and Discipline,” Brookings, July 20, 2020.

Learn More [2]: Kirsten Weir, “Inequality at School,” American Psychological Association, November 2016.

Learn More [3]: Cameron Uras Douglas, “Teacher Bias in Elementary School and the Factors That Aid It.” (University of Louisville, August 2016).

Learn More [4]: Jordan G. Starck Warikoo Travis Riddle, Stacey Sinclair, and Natasha, “Teachers Are People Too: Racial Bias among American Educators,” Brookings, July 13, 2020.

Learn More [5]: NEA Center for Social Justice, “Implicit Bias, Microaggressions, and Stereotypes Resources,” National Education Association, January 2021.

9. Employment Discrimation - In the United States, African Americans regularly face higher unemployment rates than whites. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, since 1972, African American unemployment rates have more often than not been twice as high as the white unemployment rate. Discrimination in the labor market and job instability are major contributing factors to these disproportionately high rates of unemployment. African Americans are also burdened by a lack of qualifications for job opportunities as they are less likely to attend and graduate from college, which stems from them facing greater financial barriers to getting a college education. Under the laws enforced by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), it is illegal to discriminate against someone because of that person's race, color, religion, gender identity, sexual orientation, national origin, age, or disability. Although such hiring discrimination is illegal, companies still find loopholes in excluding minority job applicants and workers. Countless companies hold beliefs that qualified African American candidates are rare and that their African American employees are not as qualified for promotion as their white colleagues. A multitude of hiring managers claim that they couldn’t diversify their workspaces as there weren’t any African American candidates to be hired. In the end, these organizations insistently assert how diversity is hard to achieve, not because of the efforts being made to do so, but because of the talent pool.
10. Gradual Abolition of Slavery Law - The Lost Souls Public Memorial Project is an artistic memorial set to be built in East Brunswick and is centered around the 137 African Americans who were captured and sold into slavery by the Van Wickle Slave Ring from February until October of 1818. The ring, comprised of a vast network of powerful figures, was led by Judge Jacob Van Wickle, who abused his legal authority and used a loophole in the Gradual Abolition of Slavery law to organize the kidnappings and selling of free and enslaved African Americans into the South. In 1804, New Jersey passed the Gradual Abolition of Slavery law, an act that delayed the end of slavery in the state for decades. It allowed for the children of enslaved African Americans born after July 4, 1804 to be free, only after they attained the age of 21 years for women and 25 for men. Unfortunately, their families would remain enslaved until they died or attained freedom by running away or waiting to be freed. At the time, sending slaves from New Jersey to Louisiana was highly profitable as an able-bodied slave sold for about $1,100 in New Orleans, while selling for about $300 in New Jersey. According to historical reports, Van Wickle held captured African Americans in his home until they were sent on ships to the South.

TRANSCRIPT

Interview conducted by Dan Swern

Interview conducted remotely

June 25, 2021

Transcription by Cara Del Gaudio

Annotations by Lanai McAuley

00:00:00

Hi, uh, Mae, can you hear me?

Hello?

Can you hear me?

I can.

Great. So the, uh, recording’s going, um, I’m just gonna go ahead and, um, insert ourselves. Uh, so, uh, [laughter] today is Friday, June 25, 2021. Uh, it is 1:49 PM, um, oral history is being conducted over the phone, uh, due to constraints due to the COVID-19 pandemic, uh, this is going to be part of our virtual archive for coLAB Arts, uh, my name is Daniel Swern, uh, Producing Director for coLAB Arts, and I am here interviewing, uh, if you wouldn’t mind saying your name please?

Maevonia Daniels Caldwell.

Um, Maevonia, thank you, uh, so much for taking the time to speak with me today. Uh, and whenever you’re ready, uh, please feel free to begin from the– uh, begin from the beginning. A good place to start.

Okay. Um, I was born May first, 1941 in Cordele, Georgia, to– Milton Lewis Daniels the First, and Louisiana [Anna] Chambliss Daniels. Um, we lived in Cordele for– prob– I’m not real sure, how– how many– years, um, but I was– I did start kindergarten there, and so I remembered, um, attending kindergarten for a short while, um, and was, um, asked to– leave, um, because I was sort of disruptive I guess. Um, I– I liked reading and talking and there was not always time for that in– in my classroom, so I– I was able to, um, go back home with my mom. My mom was paying a dollar a week to Mrs. Kimball. I don’t have a strong memory of her, um, and Mrs. K– it was a segregated, um, classroom. I was able to go back home long enough, I guess a– a couple of weeks or so, to learn to, um, write cursive, which was a– a requirement of, uh, of kindergarteners, um, and so I was able, therefore, to go to first grade, because I was already reading. 

00:02:52

Um, I have one, um– knowledge of one brother, um– um, Milton Daniels Jr., who, um, who has predeceased me, um, and before my birth, um, I had one brother who died in infancy, whose name was Clifford. Never met him and, um, we actually have no pictures of him because he, as I said, he died very early, um, I’d like to think that it was not because, um, he– my mom did not receive good care, um, medically, um, but I do think that had he been born in– in a hospital that had good medical care for mother and child, that he would have survived. He had, uh, a cleft palate, um, among other things that I’m just not aware of. But my mom always felt that he could have been saved. 

[Annotation 1]

00:04:04

Um, my– my knowledge really of school is– is in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, where my family moved from Cordele. And the leaving of– of Cordele– although, really, it’s a blur for me, um, I am– I am very aware of the reasons why we left, uh– My dad, um, was a minister, um, that was his full-time job all of the time that I knew him, um, and I b– he’d began, um, preaching at the age of sixteen, was an itinerant, um, minister, which I guess is what happened in those days, there was no single Black church that was able to, um, afford to keep itself open, or to keep, um, a minister, uh, employed, and so, um, a minister in those days, um, would have four different churches, one for each Sunday of the month, and he would give services there. Families would come, I am told, uh, prepared to spend the day, um, they would come, most typically by wagon or horseback or on foot, um, in– in certainly those early days, um, families did not have cars– or, not many families had cars, and even fewer of those were Black families who had cars. Um, so my dad was– was a minister and often would, um, preach in– in many places other than Georgia, and including, um, Brooklyn– I think– was one of the places I heard about. And he would take the train and he would– he would preach a revival service for a week or two, and– and then return home. During that time, it would be my mother, um, my brother and me, who would be left alone in– in our house, um, my mom, um, would– go to the market– market is probably too grand a term to the– the local little store, and, um, particularly a butcher shop, uh, and she went there regularly because, um, we– would have had an icebox, so, um, as opposed to an electric refrigerator.

00:07:13

Which was common, um, and so my mom needed to buy things that needed to be kept cold or frozen, uh, fairly regularly, x number of times a week, um, and she would walk there, um, to get whatever, and my dad had a– a– an account, if you will, at the butcher shop, knew the butcher very well, and so my mom would, um, be able to go and choose whatever she wanted, and then when my dad got home, he would pay the bill, um, he– it– it– pr– it stopped the need for her to have a lot of money in the house, and it was a useful arrangement. Uh, it was not all that, um, helpful for a Black woman who appeared to be alone, um, to have money and to be otherwise vulnerable. However, um, my mom who, um, lived to be 100, and– and– and died in– in 2019, um, she– she was, um, um, a very graceful, and, um, good-looking woman, um, who, um, was– was always careful of her appearance, really until twelve days before she died, she was thoughtful about how she looked, and apparently this was noted by, um, some white men, who did not see a man near her, and, uh, and also thought that she was attractive. Um, I don’t know– my mom never really talked about what they may have said to her, but she was– she was very afraid, um, and she was even more afraid to tell my father, when he came back, because my– my father took no prisoners.

00:09:21

Um, he– he was, um, what was called, um, a crazy n*****, by, um, the– the white men around, which meant that you didn’t mess with him or his family. And he was not going to tolerate it. He was– he was tall and strapping, uh, and– and in very good condition and very clear about protecting his family, so I– so I don’t believe that my mom really talked very much, uh, at the time, uh, about what she was hearing: the cat calls, and worse, from the people who– the men– the white men– who– who saw her going back to the store with some regularity. My dad might– might be in Brooklyn, and then he might be somewhere else. Um, so there were– there were assorted periods of time when he was away from the home. And I don’t know whether there was stalking or watching, but, in any case, um, my dad came home, um, after one of his times away preaching, and the butcher who was, um, at least a friend– I– friend, also maybe too great a word. I don’t know that they had a friendship, but they had a relationship. Uh, clearly, the butcher trusted my dad to, uh, pay him money, my dad trusted the butcher to have food, and so they had a– a– a relationship that was, um, uh, at least civil.

00:11:01

Uh, and the butcher apparently had at least knowledge, and maybe a friendship and relationship with the white men who– who apparently asked who that woman was who came to the store. Um, the butcher said very pointedly to my dad and this is the part of the story that I have heard many times, um, he– he asked him, “Don’t you have somewhere you can move?” Um, and my dad would have wanted to know why he asked that, and he was very candid about what, um, the men had said about their intentions toward my mother, um, and he was afraid that they were serious enough to carry out their intentions, um, one of the times that my dad was away. Um, my– dad, of course, was furious, and– and the first thing he said was that, you know, “if– if they come to my house, um, they– I had better not be there, um, because somebody is gonna die, uh, it– it may be me, but I will not die alone.” So, the butcher apparently said, another time, my dad didn’t leave town again, but he– when he went to the store the next day, of course, the men were not, um, stalking him, um, the butcher repeated his concern that if my dad had somewhere to go, um, to move, that he would– he would suggest that he do that. Um, and so we moved. 

[Annotation 4]

00:13:01

Um, there have been a number of churches where my dad had, um, had preached, and where people were interested in his being their pastor. So, I– I would– I guess there were negotiations about that, um, and we moved to Johnstown, Pennsylvania, um, which, uh, was far enough away that– that certainly the men were not a bother, uh, any longer. Um, so I– I was privileged to know my– both sets of– grandparents– well, one and a half sets of grandparents– um, while we were in Georgia. Um, I don’t, um– my– my maternal grandparents were Floyd Chambliss and Bobbi, B-O-B-B-I, um, Carter Chambliss, and they lived– I’m not sure where. But Georgia. And it was, um, we could get there by car. We did have a car, um, and, so that’s sort of blurry, um, but I do know that my– my– my grandma, um, Bobbi, was a, um, consummate homemaker, as my mom became as well. She– she– uh, my grandmother had a garden, um, and was a seamstress and, um, apparently made all of the clothing for her eight, um, biological children, um, my mom being the second eldest of the eight, um, and– and there was an additional person, who– who she raised as well, whose name was Jeanette and– and– and my mom always said, “there were eight of us, and then there was Jeanette, who came to our house and never left.” Um, um, so Jeanette became another sister that they– they took in, and it was only years later that I figured out why– my mom was born in 1918, when the first, uh, pandemic hit this country, um, and so people were dying left and right, uh, children were orphaned, and there were, um, really no viable institutions that were going to be able to care for Black children in any case, so, um, my grandfather, grandmother apparently knew that Jeanette was orphaned, I don’t know that she was, um, a blood relation, um, or a– the child of a friend, but my grandfather brought her home and Jeanette became another kid that they, um, that they raised as– as a sister.

[Annotation 2]

[Editor’s Note: The 1918 influenza pandemic was an exceptionally deadly global influenza pandemic caused by the H1N1 influenza A virus, infecting around one-third of the world's population and killing an estimate of at least 50 million people.]

00:16:27

Um, um, my grandfather, Floyd, was, um, a mechanic, he was, um, mulatto, he had, um, connection to the Chambliss plantation, we are just about sure, um, through birth, he had some privileges because he was mulatto. They were not big privileges, but he was not likely to be hanged. Um, he was never a farmer or a sharecropper, he [laughter?]– he was, um, a mechanic, and very, very, um, skilled, could fix anything, um, as could my uncles, who I did get to know, especially as I got older and one of them moved to Philadelphia, so I knew him very well, um, and– and he was handy also. So, my grandfather was, um, handy enough to be able to fix the, uh, few automobiles that were, um, uh, were around, were owned by anybody, mostly– mostly, um, whites. And, um, he was extremely independent, and, um, like my father, demanded, um, personal respect, um, and so if– if he were not, um, approached appropriately, he just wouldn’t fix your car, and, um, there weren’t garages and many other options, so Floyd was it. And, um, he, therefore, ha– got customers, um, and they were– they were, um, appropri– he was dealt with appropriately. He made people pay him, um, and he, um, also was able to get– go and drive to the local town to get a doctor, uh, when, uh, my grandmother Bobbi, uh, needed, um, medical help. She had some chronic illnesses, I’m not really sure what they were, of course, ‘cause I was a kid, um, uh, and– and typically the Black families that I know and am a part of, they tend not to complain anyway, um, about health issues and sometimes they, um, are a little bit under– underserved, um–

[Annotation 7]

00:19:18

So, but my grandmother, um, had all kinds of remedies that, um– medicines that she concocted, um, from herbs and weeds, or whatever she found, uh, in the– in the fields near their home, uh, as– and as a matter of fact that’s how a lot of medicines were d– were developed, um, companies and doctors would talk to, um, Blacks and– and get their recipes, or their formulations, I guess better said, and then would– some medicines were definitely, uh, developed on the things that they knew. One– one memory that I have of my– of my [laughs]– of my grandmother Bobbi was, um, she, um, she would make some sort of poultice, some sort of mixture of– of foul-smelling stuff, and, um, if you were ill, particularly with a cold or– or something like that, she would– she would rub it on your chest, and you would feel better the next day, although you’d suffer through the smell overnight, um, but, um, it was very handy because she had a lot of kids, too. Um, but her knowledge was, uh, really, um, profound, um, in– in– in terms of mixing, uh, things, and I sort of really wish I had known her, uh, longer. She didn’t die, but we– we moved away, and– and, um, so I– I didn’t see her with any regularity, really after– after– after we moved away. 

00:21:13

Um, my grandfather Floyd, as I said, was very handy, um, fixed automobiles, and then one day– my mom was probably 85 or so, she said, very [laughter]– very off-handedly, in my kitchen in New Jersey, where she, um, came to visit and finally came to live, um, at the end of her life, um, she said– there were airplanes on some sort of news story, and my mom commented that, um, that she remembered when my grandfather Floyd used to, um, work with the– the Wright brothers. And I was taken aback, and, um, so my mom told me what she knew, obviously there were– there were planes by then, or– or fledgling planes and trials and errors, and, um, because my grandfather was known to be handy, and, I guess if you could fix a car, you could fix a plane, I have no idea, but, um, they– there was a field, an open field, um, I don’t know whether it– it was prepared, um, for these flights or these tinkerings with autom– with, um, airplanes or not, but, um, my mom remembers that the– that there would be times when there’d be, uh, an airplane in the field and, um, everybody would really be afraid. The kids were afraid that it was gonna fall and sometimes it didn’t take off or it shimmied however it shimmied, and she– her– the funniest thing that she thought, uh, was that even the chickens would be– which my grandmother raised– would be afraid because the– there’d be this really noisy thing that would sort of hop along the ground, or maybe hover, and, um, so she said everybody including the chickens were afraid, uh, except my grandfather thought the whole thing was sort of funny.

00:23:29

Um, my grandfather also, um, augmented his, um, his earnings, um, I– I have no idea whether there was any, um, money that he got from the Wright brothers, or if they had money, or if he just was curious, um, he probably at least bartered something. He was– he was good at bartering, but one of– one of his other, um, uh, skills, was also, um, uh, running a still. He– he– he made liquor in the woods, and um, and– and sold it I’m sure. And that was another way between his– his mechanic duties and his, um, uh– liquor days, he was able to, um, take care of– of a large family and pretty much anybody else who needed something in the community, they would– they would ask– they would ask Floyd. Um, my mother contended, um, always, until the last, that she had gone with my dad, uh, enough times in the woods, apparently, kids just went, because he– he was pretty happy to have them there, or maybe grandma was tired of the brood, I don’t know, but she contended til the very end that she knew how to make liquor. We always asked her to prove that, and she never did, um, but she liked telling us that she just– at any time, she would be able to, um, have a still in our– in the woods behind our house. 

00:25:22

Um, my paternal grandparents, um– and– and I say a half set, um, I had a– a biological paternal grandmother and I had a step-grandfather on my– on my dad’s side. My dad was born in Savannah, and his father, um, died when he was two years old, so, uh, it left, uh, Grandma Annie– her name was Annie [Simmons Daniels], um, and her– her– my stepfather’s name was Mitchell. And she was a woman alone, which, um, was not a tenable situation, um– so– and– and even now, a woman alone raising children, um, it’s– it’s complicated at best. And so I don’t know how she got from, um, Savannah to Vianna– We would say Vienna, I always did and I was always corrected that it was said Vianna, Georgia, is where, um, she ended up, and obviously my dad coming there at roughly two years old, he has no memory of why they were there either, but my– my paternal step, uh, grandfather, Mitchell, was a sharecropper of sorts. Um, not a particularly industrious one, and so, um, it was my grandmother, um, who was really the farmer. And I have a couple of pictures of her. She was tall, o– o– at– at least six feet, and lean, she looked like a Maasai woman, and one memory that I have was that she would carry things on her head. I thought that was really cool, because she would– she would tie whatever it was up in a sheet, or, uh, or something, or it might have been a container, um, and she would put it on her head and she would wiggle her neck a couple of times, and then stride off. And, um, I never saw anybody do that, um, she was the only one who I ever saw really do it in person.

00:27:59

Um, and she and my dad, who also– they were just about, uh, equal, uh, height, um, they– they needed to pick the cotton, they needed to, um, take care of the family, um, she was– she was, um, the breadwinner, and– and not really, um, I never really saw her just laugh, um, um, she was always kind, um, to me, and my– my other memory, in addition to her carrying things on her head, um, was that we went there once and they had no– they had no food in the house, um, um, and my– my parents would always take food there. We never took food to– to, um, my other grandparents, they always had food. Um, either from the garden or from the chicken coop or from wherever they wanted, um, even my grandfather had a store, at one– at one point. Uh, so they– they– they lived, um, comfortably, and– and probably healthily, because they– they grew everything and, uh, uh, my grandmother was meticulous and– and canned and so they were– they were fine. My other grandparents were, um, more needy, and– and, but when we got there, um, this one time, with– with food, there were always, um, there was always food that we took, um, she had a chicken leg, um, which was really my– my favorite, um, part of the chicken, I guess, um, but she had one chicken leg, um, my other thing’s ice cream, she didn’t have ice cream, my other grandmother made ice cream. Um, but she– I– we have no idea, I’ve asked my parents, where would she have gotten a chicken leg? And, um, she didn’t raise chickens. And my– my father– my father always had difficulty, um, talking about her, because he– he knew that she did not have a good life, and it bothered him that we lived far away after a time, and so he said, “she would have done anything to get a chicken leg for you,” and so she– borrowed it or begged for it at somebody’s house, um, because that was something she thought I would like. 

00:31:05

And I did. Um, and as I got older, I– it– it struck me how poignant that was, that even though she had nothing for herself, her– her thing was– these were– this is her grandchild, um, and– and that was something that she was able to do. One of the few things that she was able to do. Um, so I– that’s– that’s the south as– as I know it, um, and, uh, it– it was, um, it was a difficult place for my family, um, I would not like to live in the south now, even, um, I– I– I rarely visit, it is always either for business, or– or a funeral, or something very formal and organized. Um, there– there– there were clear, um, separations of people in most instances, um, there were Black people and there were white people, and the white people were subservient, um, and needed to, um, depend on– on– on the white community for their livelihood. Um, even though sharecroppers worked very hard, they ended up with not very much at the end of– of a year. Um, fortunately, my– my Chambliss grandparents were not as needy as that, or– or as badly treated as that, but they– they were still looked down upon, it was– it was pretty– pretty clear. Um, one of the– one of the things that I– my dad was– my dad was the storyteller in the family, uh, except some stories were just too hard for him, but he had the– a knack for mimicking just about anybody anytime and, um, and I– I regret that, um, he died in 1976, um, no, he died in 1991, at the age of 76, and so– and I don’t have any of his stories, you know, there were not videos made back then, um, I– and– and people didn’t just record things, or, at least, we didn’t in– in our family, I don’t even have one of his sermons, uh, unfortunately, although I did try to, um, somebody promised me that she had made a recording and– and I tried to buy it and I– there was really no tape.

00:34:12

Um, but he was– he was a great storyteller, and– and he– he would often tell, um, about his– the pain of his own upbringing by telling you a story ab– about somebody else. And, um, so I– I wrote a story, um, which was based on a sharecropper that he reportedly knew, but I think it was a family member, and, um, uh, I– I still have it actually. Um, but it– it tries to talk about the, um, the pain of working as a sharecropper all year and essentially having nothing to show for it, in fact, even less than nothing, because often you were still in debt for the seed, or for whatever equipment, the plow, the horse, or the mule, or whatever, um, you– you then owed, you carried over, uh, a debt, to the next year, in addition to not having gotten any money for the current year. Um, and– and that still sort of happens now. I saw a story the other day about, um, uh, Black farmers and the loss of their– the loss or the stealing of their land, um, so that– that sort of– that’s sort of what I know about George– my– my– my maternal grandparents, the Chamblisses, ended up, um, moving to– from Georgia, to– Florida, and, um, the– w– I’m not completely sure why, except that because my grandfather was handy, that grandfather was handy, um, there– I– they were– they were filling in swampland, and– and with the current collapse of a– of a building, a condo building, yesterday, uh, in Florida, uh, it reminded me of something that he said. Um, he was clearly not an engineer, but he was– he was wise in construction and in anything mechanical, and he– he was paid a lot of money, um, so I– I– I think he was– he clearly was a laborer, but perhaps a little bit– a grade above that?

[Annotation 3]

[Editor’s Note: Sharecropping is a system of farming where the landowner of a plot of land allows a tenant to rent the land in exchange for a share of the crop.]

00:37:16

One of the things that he– he was not a talker, my– my– my grandfather. He was fun, but he– he, you know, he didn’t just talk a lot. He said that my grandmother talked enough for both of them, so he didn’t really need to say [laughs] to say much. Um, but one thing I remember his saying was, “the water will reclaim its own.” And– and I asked what– what was that? You know? Um, and he said that he– they were filling in swampland, I didn't even know what a swamp was, but we talked about that. Um, and he said, so they– they– they’re putting dirt on top of water and– and if you put enough dirt in– in the water, then you’d think you’ve got land, and maybe you don’t. And he always– he always thought that it was, uh, an untenable idea to, um, to– to construct in that way, and certainly during that time there would not have been the skyscraper sort of buildings that one has now, anywhere, uh, I would have been surprised to see if I really saw a building that was more than three or four stories tall, um, maybe, I don’t know. But he– he– he did the work there and he, um, he finally, um, moved my grandmother there, um, and a couple of her siblings. A couple of her younger siblings. By then, she and her older siblings had married and, um, and we were not living at home, even if they were, um, still living in– in Florida. But it– it was sort of, um, painful to hear him– his voice saying that. Um, when I saw the collapse of that building. Um, and I– I hope we’ve seen enough of that.

00:39:36

And I hope he doesn’t continue to be right about that. In Johnstown, um, where I really spent my elementary school days, um, we– Johnstown is– is known for the flood, I’m sure you– it was past the flood when we lived there, but, um, we lived, um, about– we lived on– on the side of a mountain, actually. Um, Main Street in– in Johnstown went straight up, um, at least thirty degrees, um, and, uh, and then, up to, up to where we– our house was, and then it– it proceeded and– and was a mountain. Um, and that was– that was odd, um, we lived in the parsonage, which was next door to the church, and, uh, literally, our– our backyard was, um, a hill. And there was a little flat area, um, outside of our kitchen door, where we could– we could play, um, but anything above that was a hike, literally, a hike. And, um, I– as– as my brother got older, oh, obviously, my brother– my brother was eight years older than I, um, and so I really wasn’t, uh, a cherished playmate for him, most of the time. Um, his– his buddies were much too, um, grown up and urbane to hang out with us. Once in a while they’d do it if they couldn’t find something better to do, but, um, so a couple of friends and I, uh, decided one day, when– when our brothers wouldn’t play with us, that we would just go up in, uh, in the mountain behind our house. And I’d been warned not to do that, um, and I’ve disobeyed it [laugh]. 

00:42:13

And so we– we– one friend and I, I think her name was Jackie, um, but I was probably the instigator, I– I’m not gonna blame Jackie at all, um, we– we went, um, up the hill– I’m sort of relocating now, so this might be a, um, a little bit of a hiatus in time, I think I need to get to a quieter place. Um, we– there were– there were men, who– who were, um, up, who lived, um, literally in the woods in the mountain, um, they were homeless and they– this was a place where they could, um, construct a– a lean-to, or– or a tent, or– or whatever, uh, frankly, we didn’t investigate that well, but there was some sort of dwelling, that they would be able to concoct. Sometimes there was, um, a small group who– who– who would, uh, live together and they were called can-heaters, because occasionally they would come down, um, into town, and to– to get food or work, and the way one paid them was in cans of food. Um, they had a– a– apparently little use for money, um, but– and if they needed clothing or something, I guess, they either got that from people who gave it out, or once in a while they could buy a jacket or something. And Pennsylvania is cold.

00:44:19

So, one would need to, um, be fortified against the weather. So basically, they had cans of food, which they opened and heated up on some makeshift fire, and, um, so I knew about that, and I was– that’s one of the reasons one was told not to go up the mountain, [laugh] um, and– so we went, uh, Jackie and– and me, um, um, Jackie and I. So, we– a– a– we got sort of halfway up, and I d– I don’t know how high the mountain was, I mean it seemed like it was very high to me. I think– I think it really was, too, um, um, there. One of the– one of the men stood up, um, we– we– he heard us, and– and he– he stood up and, of course, we saw him standing there. He– he– he– he didn’t. He didn’t. He was no threat to us, really. He– he was– he could have been, probably, as we were clearly in his space, um, but he didn’t chase us, he didn’t do anything, he just sort of stood up, I think just to warn us that, “maybe you shouldn't– two little girls shouldn’t be up here.” Um, so we– we then started down the mountain, uh, as fast as we could, um, run, and, of course, we fell and sort of rolled down the rest of the way into our, um, the little flat siding that was our back– our side yard. Um, and of course I think, um, my dad, who was pretty vigilant, was already on the back porch. And he probably saw the whole thing, um, and was sure that we were safe, and maybe even knew the can-heater. I– I don’t have any idea, but I know that once in awhile, um, my parents would leave cans of, uh, of prepared food, you know, I guess whatever– whatever my mom had in cans those days, um, we didn’t have many cans, ‘cause my mom, like her mother, canned food so most of the things that we had were preserved, or that were non-perishable, were in jars, so, um, I think they would consciously buy some things so they could just leave them, um, out there.

00:47:26

Uh, and they would disappear, um, so we would– we would expect that the– the can-heaters got them. Um, my– one– one thing that I really liked was, by the time I got to fourth grade– yes. By the time I got to fourth grade, we were– we were the big kids, so we– we were able to change classes, um, unlike the [laughs] the people who were way down in third and second and first grade, um, and– and we moved among three tiers, um, um, um, Mrs. Scott, who taught, um, English and History, and I really liked her. Um, um, she was very warm and, um, and probably clever, um, English and reading, she did. Um, and– and she always had all kinds of props in the room, so I– I– I liked that. And that was, um, where I learned the Gettysburg address, and– and– and one had to get up and one had to say it, and– and that was that. And it was– it was easy and it was fun. Um, and– and it was nice if you were sort of dramatic when you did it. And I thought that was fun too, and we had our, uh, math teacher was Miss Sifried. And I didn’t like her. I didn’t like math and I still don’t. Um, I– I do it, and I think I do it excessively, but I do it grudgingly even to this day, um, and I’m gonna blame it on Miss Sifried, I think that’s a good way to get rid of that phobia that I have. She used to wear ostrich shoes. As I– as I thought about her, she was really well-tailored and really very well-dressed [laughter] 

00:49:31

But, of course, I was just– I would see these– these, um, shoes coming down the aisle, while I was probably erasing something that I had done wrong in– in– in math, um, and the third teacher who was, uh, the history teacher, um, was, um, Mrs. Hirschburger. And she was my favorite. She was– she was a grandmother, um, and– and as it– as it has occurred to me that she was so– all of these teachers were– were white. Um, but it occurred to me that she was grandmotherly enough that it made me miss my own grandparents a little bit le– she was a surrogate in a way. Although, only in school, obviously, we– we had no contact outside of school, as most kids don’t, um, but she was, you know, she was a hugger, and, um, and she seemed genuinely glad to– to see everybody and– and she would just get very excited when we’d do something in class and– and, um, and I think my– my– she was a joy. She w– she was an absolute joy, too. So we all looked– most of us really looked forward to whatever periods we had with her, and we would y– march around, it was– it was– the configuration was essentially a triangle. So it wasn’t like we really went anywhere, uh, all of the– all of the three teachers could stand at their door, and– and see us move from one class to the next, but we thought that was really hot stuff because we didn’t have to sit in the same class all day long like the l– little kids.

00:51:32

Um, we moved to, um, ha– ha– had we remained in Johnstown, I would have gone to a middle school, I guess one would call it, um, for the seventh grade, because I was in this triangulated situation with those three teachers from– for fourth, fifth, and sixth grade. Um, and– and I was very mu– much looking forward to, um, going to junior high because my brother was already in high school, and so, um, I was going to move up and, of course, be– not quite, um, up to him, but– but almost getting pretty close there, going to a big school. Um, but when we moved to Rochester, New York, um, one continues– elementary school ended, um, at seventh grade, and so, when we moved there, I needed to spend, um, another year, um, my seventh year, um, in what was an elementary school, and– and– which, um, was just distasteful to me. Uh, I was– I was very sorry that– that, you know, my big, uh, days had to be– be, uh, curtailed, but what also happened, um: My mother who, who was the keeper of records always, uh, in our family, had– had done what was necessary to get whatever school records, and so she had a little packet and an envelope with whatever stuff one needed, report cards and whatever, and, um, they– my– my dad was the one who was going to go to school to register me, in– in Rochester, and, uh, that’s when I found that I– I was not going to be going to the middle school or junior high, I was gonna need to be in seventh grade. Um, I also had a– a– um, a white teacher there, um, who was not excited, as excited as– as my, uh, other teachers had been, to– to have me there. I was being added to a– a class, uh, bigger than she had expected, although we moved in August. My parents tended to be aware of when school started everywhere so that we could begin at the beginning of the year, both of us.

00:54:34

Um, so, but she had had all of the other kids all their way through elementary school, I guess. Or at least most of them, but I was– I was the newbie, and so she was less than excited, and– and decided– I don’t know whether it was she or the administration– they decided that since I came from another state and that, um, probably ‘cause I was a Black kid, too, that I– I probably didn’t meet their standards. So I needed to be put back, um, and not enter, um, seventh grade, but move back to sixth grade, um– one of– one of the things that was always helpful to me, all the way through school, was that my parents were, uh, vigilant about what was happening in school and whether I liked it and also that I was applying myself and getting good grades and all of that and showing up at whatever kind of parent affairs they had. Um, and I– my– my mother walked me to school, um, and– and then left at whatever appropriate time, and then, um, they put me in sixth grade. And I– I was unhappy. Um, so, uh, when I went home, obviously the question always at dinner or any other time, actually, was, you know, “how was school?” And my dad being a minister, he might be home any time, you know, he might have gone to the hospital to visit somebody. So, it– you know, my dad might just be there, or sometimes he would drive me home ‘cause he was nearby or something, but he did ask, and I said, um, um, that I was– they had put me in sixth grade.

00:56:46

And I sort of wondered why that was the case. And I didn’t really have a good– I didn’t know. I mean, I– I– um, so, my– my dad, um, went to school with me the next day and, um, w– you know, we had test scores or whatever Mom had in that little packet, um, [stammers] it was– Dad wanted to know what was deficient and what– you know, ‘cause Pennsylvania and New York are adjoining states. They’re not even– they’re not even, uh, separated by anything, um, and it– it just seemed very odd that in another northern state– it wasn’t like I was coming from Georgia, they did point out that I was born in Georgia, but, uh, I had, um, they thought that I needed– I needed to be back a grade. So my dad wasn’t having that, and he– he demanded that they give me, um, whatever tests they gave in that school, um, that he would sit in the back of the room while they did it, um, and obviously not be in a position to coach me at all, and they could have anybody else in the room that they wanted from the staff, who would also see that– that I was performing the work and that if I could do the work, um,  I was going to be put into seventh grade, my rightful grade, that day. Um, so I took whatever tests there were. There was– there was reading, um, and I know there was reading and reading comprehension and– and something or other, and of course there was math, and even though I hated it, I was good at it anyway, thanks to Miss Sifried and those shoes, um, so it was clear, uh, as a matter of fact I don’t even think I– I finished all the tests, I’m– I’m not quite sure about that, but after– after awhile the principal sort of declared that– that I was, you know, worthy of going to– to seventh grade at Number 9 school in Rochester, New York. So I went in and I– and– and– that’s why I kind of think that the teacher was part of it, because she was definitely not happy to see me coming in, uh, since she had decided that I shouldn’t be there.

[Annotation 8]

00:59:30

Um. In– in Rochester at that time [clears throat] it’s different now and I’m glad, um, one– one went from seventh grade, the elementary school that went to seventh grade, you left that grade and you went to– straight to high school. So I was in high school, in a high school building, as an eighth grader. Um, they no longer do that, and– and– and– and I’m glad they don’t, because my high school was huge. Um, it– it had three thousand kids, and, um, from eighth grade to twelfth grade, and– and eighth graders and twelfth graders are– are not good, um, not– not good partners, um, so, so, um– and then I had the extra thing, of being a– a preacher’s kid, so, um, [laughs] it was– it was– it was hard to adjust to eighth grade and that bigger school and I had only changed classes, uh, you know, among three teachers who were able to see each other. Um, I, you know, there were people on the third floor and sometimes my class was all the way on the other side of the school on the second floor, and so it was– it was hard, not just for me, but it was– it was hard for everybody, um, to– to adjust to that big a school. And not all of the schools– high schools– in Rochester were that big, but mine was the largest at that– at that time. Um, but what– what my teacher had done– my seventh grade teacher who– who had not really wanted me to be there, um, she had decided to, um, change the classes for which I was eligible, um, in– in– high school. There– there was– um, New York state is a Regent state, um, which– which means, or certainly meant at that time, that there is a sort of a college-bound, uh, group, and they’re– they take Regents exams which are statewide, uh, all the way through high school. Um, and then there was the non-Regents, um, so even though one didn’t actually start taking those exams until the ninth grade, the eighth grade sort of was your prep year.

01:02:21

Um, and so the seventh grade teacher then had to, um, get permission from the parents to put their child in– in either the Regents track or the non-Regents track and I– I don’t know, they had some euphemism for it, I don’t think it was said quite like that, but, um, if one went into the Regents or the– sort of the college-bound track, went in– in eighth grade, um, your– your concentration was going to be in exploratory languages, and then the other things that everybody had: gym and music and home ec and– and history or something, um, but– but um, I was excited by that and it– it never occurred to me that I wasn’t going to college, and, but more than– than that, which was way down the road, it was languages and we were to have, um, Italian, French, um, German, and Spanish, um, and– and for the year, um, obviously broken up into segments. And then by the end of that year of exploratory languages, you’d know the one that you wanted to study, um, starting in ninth grade and then all the way through. I thought that was just really cool, and, um, if– if one were not going to be, um, in the college track, you took, um, a secretarial, uh, course, which I think was something like, uh, First Lessons in Business or something. Um, FLB or something like that, but, um, so my first day in– in school, in– in, um, eighth grade, um, my dad had driven me to school, um, didn’t go in, he’s– and he only drove me because he was probably going to have a meeting or something nearby, uh, ‘cause I wasn’t regularly driven to school [laughs] school, um, I– I– I didn’t have any languages, uh, it was clearly– it was clearly whatever the secretarial course was–

01:04:54

Because there were typewriters and things, and, uh, so I went– when I got home, and I, um, my– my dad said, um, you know, “Well, say something to me in Italian.” And I of course hadn’t learned any, I wasn’t in there. And then he said, “Okay, how about French, how about German, how about Spanish? You know, any language, say something to me in– that’s not in English.” And I said, “I didn't learn any– any languages today.” Well, clearly both my parents knew that– that– that I must have been, uh, misplaced, and so, um, but they didn’t really want me to get alarmed about that, so my dad said, “Well, okay, so tomorrow you’ll know. You’ll say something to me when you get home. You’ll know another language.” And of course the next day the same thing happened, I got– we– I went to the– the [unclear] um, so the third day, he went to school, um, and wanted to see why I– this was happening, you know, thought that there was a scheduling issue. As it turned out, my parents had signed the form, the– the permission slip, if you will, to, um, for Regents and therefore the language track, but, um, it had been crossed out by my– my seventh grade teacher. Um, and FLB was– their signature was still there, but FLB was written, um, where the, uh, the language track should’ve been written. And so, um, clearly, my dad had something to say about that and then the next day after that, which would have been, uh, the fourth day, I guess? Um, I was in– I was in– was it Spanish? No, I had [laughs] I had– I had Italian first. And, um, so I was able to say something in Italian.

01:07:24

Um, which turned out to be ver– very handy because our neighbor was, uh, Italian. Lovely, lovely, uh, elderly lady, and, um, who spoke– obviously– spoke Italian as her first language, um, and, um, uh, and spoke English, um, as– as a second language, but didn’t read English, so very often, uh, she would come to the fence at, uh, the edge of our properties and– and she had something that was complicated that was written in Italian. My parents would help her out with that. So, um, the fact that I was such an Italian expert by then, uh, you know I would, uh, I would say things, uh, whatever few things I knew, uh, and– and she was very sweet, and– and– and pretended to understand what I was saying [laughs] Um, but I felt very grown up and, you know, quite international at that point. Um, so, had– um, in high school, I had, um, of– of course I had integrated classes, and I had, um, you know, a little group of us, who– who pretty much had the same classes, and– and it was generally a good experience for me, um, you know, um, my running buddies were– were also doing the same t– track that I was, they were basically good students, um, I had my first– my first Black teacher, uh, in– in the north was, um, I– I had as a tenth grader, and he was– he was very demanding and, uh, but really good. Um, he– he stretched a lot of us who had gotten pretty comfortable and– and pretty cocky about doing well and not working really hard, um, but he– he– he strapped us to our desks, if you will, and, um, but also he had a good streak, um, comedic streak. And, uh, I remember his reading to us the rise and fall of practically everybody, and then had to– it was a commentate on history, um, and– and that was the way he’d allow us to– to relax at the end of the period if we’d worked really hard and then our– he would do this Julius Caesar routine of whatever. Um, so, um, I did high school and, um, was– which was a pretty good time for me. Um, I was in useful classes mostly, um, that– that stretched me.

Um, Mae, I– I lost you there. You still there?

Okay, um, did you hear that I was in useful classes? Or was it before that? 

Mae, can you hear me?

[End of Part 1]

[Start of Part 2]

00:00:00

Uh, Mae, can you hear me?

Yes, I can.

Okay. Whenever you’re ready.

Okay. Um, I’ll– I’ll move myself from– from– from high school, where– wherever I was before, um, mainly to– to– to talk about the involvement that I had late high school and– and the beginning of college, which is really, um, where I began to have, um, some participation, uh, with– with civil rights. My dad, as I mentioned, um, um, was active in the community, uh, as a minister, there had been, um, the– the riots in Rochester, New York, um, and he had a– an important role in trying to, uh, bring some, um, peace to the– to the communities. Um, one of the things that, uh, struck my interest, however, was that we had no Black, uh, tellers at– in the banks, um, which was an issue that– that, um, was taken up by people who were interested in social justice, including, um, my– my father. Um, there was also a problem with Woolworth’s, um, and– and, um, hiring and also there were accusations that there were kids who were shoplifting, which, uh, turned out not to be the case. The kids were just in the store and were not welcome in the store, um, and there was also an incident where, uh, there was a large, um, hall, um, I don't want to– I don’t want to misname it. So, there was a large hall where social gatherings could– could occur. Um, and– um, [stammers] there would be dances, and– and that kind of thing for– for teenagers, on– on weekends and it was, um, it was usually inte– integrated, but heavily Black and with the– the– the white kids who were– who were our friends, um, um, in– including a couple of people, um, who played music, the Mangioni brothers, Gap [unclear] and anyway, Chuck, they– they were kids who hung out with us, and– and who liked the same kind of music, so, um, they were often there, but heavily, it was attended by Black kids, and, um, there was a fight in– in the parking lot, um, don’t know how that started, wasn’t in the parking lot at the time, but it was not all that serious. 

[Annotation 5]

[Annotation 9]

00:03:18

Back then, um, kids didn’t have guns, uh, and so it– disputes were– they were more of a shouting match than anything, when they occurred, or shoving match, uh, I– I didn’t even know anybody who had a knife. Um, so, um, something happened in the parking lot, um, somebody called the police, and the police came in with dogs, um, and, uh, dogs usually don’t like people dancing around them, and so there was– there was a real concern that the kids were in danger, and obviously parents who found out about that later had some difficulty with– with the policing, um, particularly in– in the space where nothing had occurred, uh, the– whatever altercation that there was– and I don’t even think anybody got arrested– but whatever happened was outside, and– and– but the dogs and the police came inside, looking for whatever, I’m not sure. Um, but we, um– so there got to be this sort of activist group of young people who– who, again, saw themselves as the saviors of the world and– and, you know, um, and actually we did– we did start a number of things, um, over a– marches, and– and so on. And then there got to be a connection with the older high school kids and the university kids, uh, specifically the University of Rochester where I ended up going, and, um, um, RIT, Rochester Institute of Technology, where my husband-to-be went, and there was another– there was, uh, John Fisher College, there were several colleges around and– and the activist kids sort of got together and marched and did a couple of pretty good things.

00:05:31

Um, by the time, um, I– I– I went to college at– at– at the U of R, I– I had already met a few, um, students there, um, no [laughs] I was– I was the only Black, um, full-time student in my class, um, but I did know a couple of graduate students, um, who– who– uh, who were African American, there were no Black professors at all. Zip, nada. Um, and– I– I would have had a problem there, had I not, um, started out as– as a commuting student. Um, um, I had a car, and [clears throat] so I could drive myself to school every day. There was what was called a– a city girl’s room, so that, um, if one signed up, and I think paid six dollars or something like that, uh, you could stay overnight, and I did that frequently, um, given bad weather, or– or– or exams, or whatever, um, uh, and– and that was fine, and there was– there was a group of– of other girls, some– some of us remained, uh, friends, uh, well, uh, u– u– until a couple of them died, um, so– so I was a commuting student, not necessarily, um, viewed other than an oddity on campus, um, but– but I had my own support system, so any time I got tired of being there, uh, I could be elsewhere in– in a couple of minutes. Um, but by my see– beginning, no– I’d gotten– I’d gotten a scholarship there, it was modest, um, but– but it was a scholarship nonetheless, and– and one of the women who y– um, and– and again, the– the– these– these were all, you know, white groups, um, one of the women, uh, asked if I’d like to move up on campus. And I wasn’t sure about that, um, mai– mainly ‘cause I wasn’t sure I’d like it.

00:08:12

Um, um, and they– this group, I had– again, I had to speak, you know, whatever it was, you know, the Black Student of the World or something, it was– it was kind of condescending, but it was like, um, um, you know, “tell us what Black people think,” not unlike what the world is like today. It wasn’t a problem for me, um, um, temperamentally, I mean, you know, I– I’d been accustomed to– public speaking in church and in NACP or whatever groups, so the process of doing it was– was not difficult, but the, um, just the feeling of it, you know, um, “here’s a Black person, let’s talk to her,” um, but it did, um, but I did it. And– and sometimes you don’t know what might happen if you just sort of soldier through, and so I did it and then they offered me this– this opportunity to be up on campus and– and they paid my room and board. So, um, you know, as my dad said, you know, not a bad deal. You know, you were uncomfortable for half an hour, hey, you know, not so bad. Um, uh, so I– when I moved up on campus though, full-time, um, it– it– it suited me to, um, be more engaged with the campus. Uh, it– it suited me to have people. If I’m gonna be here, you know, you’ve got to do more than pass me on the quadrangle.

00:09:57

Um, and so, um, [stammers] I started an NAACP group there, and– and there were some kids who, um– and there’s always somebody– who thought that was pretty cool, they– they didn’t know about it, but they were willing to talk about it, and so we, um, we went on a freedom ride, um, pretty much organized by– by us and also a very prominent, um, Black woman in town, who, I think was a councilwoman. Her name’s Connie Mitchell, and by then I had also met Dr. Walter Cooper, who is– who is now ninety– seven or so? And– and– and was the first Black chemist to work at Kodak. Um, and– and so he sort of thought this group of newbies were interesting, and so we would go to his very nice house, and he would tolerate us, you know, sitting about in– in, and having dinner, and– and so on. But he was– he was another important figure in town and role model and, uh, activist, and, um, very clear, uh, about purpose and, uh, people. And as a matter of fact, uh, there’s– they’re– they’re doing a book on him now and I was reading some of the galleys, um, so it– and it’s about time. And he’s still present. I mean he’s still– I mean, that’s what’s so great. He– he knows that there’s a book, and he has comments about it, and– and– and– and he will– he will live to see it. Um, but we– we– we did the freedom rides, which w– from the north, we went down in a caravan of automobiles, um, and– and we couldn’t really go all that far, so we went to Baltimore, that was our final destination that we were able to fund and, um, figure out how to do our– ourselves. Um, ‘cause the university clearly did not sponsor it and probably wouldn’t have had we asked.

[Annotation 6]

[Editor’s Note: In the early 1960s, an interracial group of activists from the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE) organized “freedom rides” throughout the South to combat Jim Crow segregation. The Group would travel on interstate buses to test the 1960 United States Supreme Court decision in Boynton v. Virginia, which prohibited racial segregation in interstate transportation.]

[Editor’s Note: Connie Mitchell was the first African American woman to be elected to the Monroe County Legislature, and was a passionate advocate for education, housing, jobs, and equality in Rochester.]

[Editor’s Note: Dr. Walter Cooper was one of the first African American chemists to work at Kodak. During his thirty-year long career at Kodak, Cooper served as chairman of the Education Committee of the NAACP and was heavily involved in community development and civil rights issues in Rochester, New York.]

00:12:20

Um, so we went down, white kids and Black kids, um, uh, and I chose not to– tell my parents until I was underway, um, it was back when one needed to have an operator to make a long distance call, so, um, once I was at the tip of New Jersey, I think we were, I don’t know, maybe Cape May? Somewhere, um, but I was still in New Jersey, I called and of course I had to have– have the charges accepted by somebody and my dad who– who really hated talking on the phone, because he had to do it so much, but he– I was hoping he wouldn’t answer. But he did, and wondered why I was making a long distance call. And, um, um, so I told him where I was and why I was there, and, uh, I’m sure he– he– he was just worried for me, I– he– it– it was alright, I mean, in terms of purpose, but he was just worried. So he– he– he said that my mom would be worried, um, that was how we did that, and that I needed to, um, I needed to be careful and I needed to call anytime I could and– and I think that, again, the poignant thing was, um, you know, I may not be able to get to you. Um, and he’d certainly been the person who’d gotten to me every time I needed it, and we were both clear that this was a little different. So we went to lunch counters, uh, we– we made– we made peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

00:14:23

Tons of them. Because we weren’t sure whether we’d be able to eat or not. Or– and we weren’t, uh, able to eat in most places, but we had those peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, which got to be kind of mushy after a time, but they were food. Um, and– and sometimes we– the white kids would go into a supermarket and buy something, uh, some juice, or whatever, um, we could have in the car. And so we did that. And, um, we– we ne– we were never served, except once, and it was– it was at the, you know, we were al– always, sometimes politely told, but mostly, uh, not politely told, that we needed to get out. And there was name calling and there was whatever, and we always went in as– as an integrated group. So the white kids got called names and the Black kids got called different names, but we were equally, um, badly treated. Um, but the– the last day that we were going to do it, we were– we were going to do it, um, I think until classes started, I think the first of us had class on Tu– we were on a Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday schedule. Yeah, we had classes on Saturday even [laughs]. Um, but we had gone down on a– on a Friday, and so we did this for four days or however many days that turns out to be. And– and we– we went in this last place and– and I wrote a story about this woman, too, um, she– she was a, um...uh, a sort of...uncomfortable, thin, uh, straggly waitress who saw us coming in, uh, I think there were four of us, to, um– and she kept saying, uh, “the– the lunch– the lunch we’re closed.” Uh, and– and “we needed to leave now,” and we– we said, “well, we would– we would like to order,” so we sat down and we were polite.

00:16:46

It was scary, but– but, you know, it did– it certainly didn’t– we were not going to be confrontational, um, that was part of the training. And, um, she kept saying, you know, um, you know, in– in her rogue, that, “We needed to leave now, we needed to leave now.” And, um, and– “no, that– we– didn’t we want to leave now?” Was what she asked. And of course we said no. And she said– and she kept asking. And it was clear that she wanted us to leave, but she ended up taking our order. Um, it– there was– there was, like, a saloon-type door that went to the kitchen, so we could see, uh, the cooks back there sort of act– I don’t know if they were mouthing anything to her or whatever, but we could see them. And she took the order, and– and, um, she took it back, and– and there was laughing that was coming from the kitchen, so we could only see, you know, heads and feet, we couldn’t really see what they were doing. And, um, she came back. She– one took orders then on a– on a little pad, guest check sort of written pad, and, um, and we were– we were surprised. This was– this was– we had gotten served and wasn’t that interesting.

00:18:22

And, um, so we– we kept looking, for maybe the cops to come, as they had in other pla– other stops. Um, or somebod– the guys to come out of the kitchen, ‘cause she was the only female there that we could see. And, um, and she– she– w– we got our money out to pay her, and she kept saying, you know, “y’all need to leave, like, right now,” and “o– okay, we were getting our money,” and– and when– and she said, “And you’re gonna have to eat in your car. You can’t eat it here.” And she put it in a bag, and she kept saying that we wanted to leave, and when we got outside, I [stammers] so much courage, she had written on our check, “boogers.” So she didn’t want us to eat the food. And she was letting us know, the only reason we got the food was that it was tainted. And, um, it took a lot of courage. I don’t think the people in the kitchen knew that she did– she– they couldn’t have known. Um, and of course, we– we– we– we saw– we saw what she wrote, and of course we left the– restaurant and of course we threw the food away. But I thought about what courage that took for her, because, you know, we were– we were gonna leave. Unless we were put in jail, we were going to leave. We didn’t– we didn’t live there, um, and we were, you know, our job didn’t depend on it, and probably our parents would’ve gotten us out of jail, if– if we were alive. And, um, but she told us. You know, essentially, don’t eat that. 

00:20:28

Uh, and I’ve thought about her. I can– I’ve still see– can see her stringy hair and her, um, discomfort, and her really disagreement with– the only way she could do it, um, she didn't like what was happening, and she did the best she could. So anyway, um, we did things with NAACP and, um, and the Freedom Rides. Uh, and probably that’s my biggest thing from college that I remember, except I– I had– I– I– it’s an excellent school. It still is, and even then, um, it– it was, you know, I– I am– I’m still glad I went there, um, I– I think it was a solid education, but I would not have survived had I not had the ability to leave the campus any time I wanted. I think– I think I would’ve been stifled otherwise, and I have a friend who now lives in Phoenix and is Black, uh, she came, uh, as a freshman when I was a senior. And she’s– she’s a New Yorker by birth, and, um, when– when I graduated, she left, um, she said she couldn’t– by then there were a couple more Black students, but she had been able to escape to my family’s home, too. So I took her home and of course my mom did her mom thing [chuckle] and– and so she could always escape from ca– from campus, by coming to my family’s house, um, and that was– we’re still– we’re still friends.

00:22:22

Um, uh– all the way from Phoenix. Um, and my– my time– I guess I need to wrap this– my– my time in– in– let’s see. Um, I– I got– I got married, um, at the end of college, um, to– to a student who was, um, already in graduate school. Um, he’s, um, my husband is– is– is an analytical chemist, and he likes math. Um, um, he hasn’t converted me particularly, but, um, we have, uh, moved for his job, uh, when he– he got his– I– we were both in graduate school, and– and we have a son, um, so that sort of stopped some of the things that I would have done otherwise, at least that’s what I tell him. And, um, when my husband got his doctorate, we moved to, um– Delmar. Outside of– outside of Albany, New York. And, um, I was able to work there, um, leaving out some– some of the things I did, um, in Syracuse with– with, uh, child abuse– well, it really was less a child abuse center, it was a center that worked with autistic children. Um, and that was a really interesting part of my life. Not at all explosive and– and it was integrated and it made a lot of sense. But we moved, um, when my husband finished, um, to Delmar, New York, and– outside of Albany and I was able to work at Siena College, um, where they also had, um, very few, um, Black students. Very few, and– but they wanted to increase the census. So– so through friends, I worked in their program, and, um, we were able to– to get, um, more students, and, um, to come to the campus, and– and one of– one of our really great things we were able to get, um, um, Ras Baraka’s, um, father to come do a program. He’s– he’s a poet and author, uh, and he came to the campus.

00:25:20

Um, while we were there. We went in New Jersey, um, again, the move was principally due to my husband’s work, um, I was part of the, um, well– [stammers] I was director of the Head Start program for a number of years, uh, we had five hundred and fifty two kids in thirteen centers. And, uh, that program deals, as you likely know, with, um, early childhood education. Our kids, um, were three to five, and I had had the pleasure, when I was in college, of meeting, uh, Dr. Vera John, who was a researcher for, um, early childhood programs, which– and it was a forerunner of Head Start. And– and so, um, I met her through some of the things that I was doing, and, um, so when– when we came here, it– w– I– Head Start was actually a program then. And– and so I– we had a center. We had thirteen centers. And, uh, and then I worked with, um, uh, let’s see.

00:26:28

Well, with NYU, which provided curriculum materials to Head Start programs and– and training. Um, I– um, it has always been a struggle to find money and, uh, resources for programs that very often, uh, serve minority children and families. Um, and it– it often takes, uh, sort of a meld of people who kind of don’t mind being underpaid and overworked, but who believe in the cause enough to– to, uh, move the needle a little bit and– and so we did that. Uh, Head Start has changed a lot now, um, and– and– and I won’t try to evaluate whether it’s for the better, uh, what I do know is that their– some of the contracts were consolidated and were managed well away from, um, local sites. In fact, Wyoming is one of the centers which has developed a lot of materials and– and– and some of the infrastructure, um, and, uh, Wyoming is– is not known for being a diverse community, uh, or a diverse state, so, uh, probably the– the perspectives might be a little bit different than they might have been if each state or each locality, um, were responsible for speaking to its own needs.

00:28:46

Um– I, um, so there were– there were things to write about and– and try to improve upon, um, for Head Start and always the search for– for funding. Um, I’ve also been involved with, um, from Head Start, I– I ran a child abuse center in Trenton for about twenty years or so. And those were kids who clearly were in abusive, uh, situations, either with their natural families, or in some instances, with their, um, foster families. Again, under-resourced, but we were able to– to do grants and get ancillary services, uh, including a psychologist, a child psychologist who came, uh, as often as we could pay her. Um, but some additional things that– that families needed, um. My– my– in– in– my spiritual life, I’ve been involved with, um, the leadership at First Baptist Church of Lincoln Gardens, uh, and– and I was the first female, um, Vice Chair of the Trustee Board, until, um, I stepped away to care for my mom, who, um, had– had been well, but had, um, had a stroke, and, um, she died at the age of one hundred years and eight months.

00:30:42

Um, um, so, so, and– and– and that church, as I think many Black churches, um, is community-oriented, does all kinds of things from senior programs to tutoring to, uh, food banks to, uh, community service. And, um, one current and– and lasting interest is the Lost Souls Program, uh, which is, um, dedicated to educating the community about the, um, at least one hundred thirty seven documented, and likely more, uh, infants, um, women, and children– youth, uh, and men who were stolen from this community in 1818 and sold into permanent slavery in Louisiana and, uh, Mississippi, uh, and the intent is to build a monument to their memory right here in East Brunswick, where, um, the– some of the atrocities happened. Um, and– and we’re– we’re looking, as is the necessary work of– of anybody who cares about human rights– whether it’s that or some other, to, um, be sure that memories are not erased, uh, that are restored and respected. And– and so we’re in the process of trying to see that that happens for the people who– who, uh, were stolen in– in 1818. And it’s poignant because, you know, my mom was born in 1918, um, and– and this atrocity was 1818. ‘Course it started in 1619, but, um, so, it– it, um, it reminds me that, you know, uh, a hundred years after them, there– there was my mom, uh, my dad was born in 1914, and– and still a lot of the fights are the same. 

[Annotation 10]

00:33:29

Um, you know, my– my dad– our family needed to flee, uh, because my mom was endangered by people who, uh, felt that she was fair game. Um, [stammers] and when– when we moved to have, um, my seventh grade teacher decide that– that I probably shouldn’t be in seventh grade, ‘cause I was from another state, I can’t believe– nobody believes that that was the major reason, um, ‘cause we had report cards and stuff. My mom, keeper of the archives, you know, I still find things in my house now that– that are labeled [laughs] in manila folders and, like that– that, so everything there was, in terms of evidence and fact, was presented. But ignored. So, um, we were– we were still fighting that then, um, and, uh, there were bank tellers, a– and, uh, who were not hired, and there were people who didn’t serve us food, so there has been just this whole, uh– series of things that– that are wrong, and that should end. Um, so, you know, one chips away, wherever one can. And, uh, and– and find allies, ‘cause there are some, there’s always an ally. Uh, uh, that’s one thing my dad used to say too. Not everybody’s bad, it’s gonna be hard to find the good ones, but not everybody’s bad. And, uh, so one– one hopes that sometimes there are governmental changes that are positive and one pushes for those, uh, and one speaks out against those which are negative. And you do the best you can every day. I think that’s it.

00:36:04

Mae, thank you. Um, w– what I would ask, for considering to do a transcript of this interview, first we consider that we reconnect, um, [unclear] I– I– I didn’t want you to feel like you needed to rush through [laughs] a significant portion of your professional career, because of the time, so if you’re open to it after reviewing the transcript, to go back and maybe, um, uh– a little bit on the later part of your experience, I think that’d be terrific. 

Okay, I’m– I’m open to it. Um– 

Sure.

Today– today’s just a little pushed as you know.

Totally.

Um, um, but, um, I– and– and if particularly there are things that you– or places where, um, I could fill in, there– there clearly is a lot more [laughs]. Um, and, but, yeah. Um, you know, I’m– I’m willing to fill in the holes. I think it’s important, um, you know, a lot of us are old enough, that it– it– it’s– history’s just important. And– and, uh, certainly the personal ones, uh, they aren’t so conglomerate– ’cause we sort of know the overall picture is kinda wonky, um, but, yeah, I’m– I’m– I’m open, Dan. And I hope I was close to what you– what you needed. 

No, this was great. This is really lovely. Thank you.

You’re welcome.

Is your little one sleeping still?

He– he is. He– he’s having a little bit of difficulty going– uh, well, hold on, let me stop the tape.

[Laughter] Okay.