Terry Stokes is the Associate Pastor of Youth and Community Engagement at the Reformed Church of Highland Park, New Jersey. He charts how his faith has evolved through his time in various ministries.
“I think one of the interesting things about this church is that, whereas I grew up with a huge emphasis on a personal relationship with Jesus and, uh, Bible study and, and prayer and kind of like personal piety, um. And then I had to learn sort of like a social dimension to my faith later on. The k– the kids in my youth group have sort of the opposite journey, where they’ve been very well formed in caring about justice, but, um, in many cases the– the– the love for scripture and the love for, for a prayer life and other spiritual practices has not been firmly inculcated in them.So I think the change that I’m excited about, um, that I can hopefully be a part of here is to really kind of, like, demonstrate what it looks like to marry those two things and to have the two of them feed into each other in a positive feedback cycle.”
ANNOTATIONS
Annotations coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Ashley Teague
Interview conducted remotely
February 8, 2021
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
[00:00:00]
Okay, so we’re recording. So the first thing is that I’m going to say my name and the address. You know, the date. And then I’m gonna ask you your name and if you could spell the whole thing so they have the, the initial spelling.
Okay.
Um. And then we’ll just, we’ll just get into it.
Perfect.
Okay, beautiful. So my name is Ashley Teague and the date is February the 8th, 2021. And we’re doing this interview on Zoom because there is a pandemic.
[laughs]
In the world. Um, will you tell me your name, and, and spell it for me?
Absolutely. My name is Terry Jonathan Stokes. And that’s spelled T-E-R-R-Y, J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N, S-T-O-K-E-S.
And what was the year of your birth?
1994.
And where were you born?
I was born in the Bay Area in, uh, Palo Alto, California. Well, actually, technically Stanford, uh, Stanford hospital. We lived in Palo Alto.
And did you, um, spend your whole childhood there or did you move around at all? Will you tell me about that?
Oh, we lived there until I was about 5. Um– Different suburbs in the Bay Area, one of them was Newark. And then we moved to San Marcos? Southern California. Lived there for three years. And then we moved to Hampton Virginia, which is the area my parents grew up in. So that was kind of moving back for them, but for me it was a– a new experience. Then I lived there, uh, 4th grade through 12th grade. Mhm hmm.
And you said “we”, who was sort of in your– in your household and your family? You named parents and, did you, did you have siblings and tell me about that.
Yeah! So, there’s four of us. My dad, uh, Terry–although we have different middle names, so I’m not a junior. My mom, June, and my sister, Jaqueline. My sister and I are three years apart, so she’s, uh, three years older than me.
She’s the big sister.
Yes.
Um, and any extended family in, in any of those areas that you lived in that were part of the story?
Yeah! In Virginia, um, my mom’s side of the family is fairly well represented. We had, uh, my mother’s parents who actually lived with them for two and a half years or so. We had fallen on hard times in South California which is why we moved back to the East Coast. So we would, uh, lived with my maternal grandparents for a couple years. Uh. And then my mother’s oldest sister is in Northern Virginia near DC, as well as my, my mother’s brothers. Uh, and then my mother’s twin sister lives in Pennsylvania. Um, and then, got some, you know, cousins and extended family on the east coast as well. My dad’s side of the family– my, my grandparents on his side, I did not get to know them. I was not old enough to know them before they passed away. And then I don’t really know anyone else on my dad’s side largely because my, my dad’s brothers, two brothers, kind of disappeared off the face of the earth and, uh, didn’t really keep in touch, so we didn’t really, uh, didn’t really have the opportunity to get to know anyone from that side of the family growing up.
[00:03:15]
Are there any, is there any other story around that word “disappear,” or?
Um– my, my dad’s brothers were kinda wayward sons and my dad was, I think, a whole ten years younger than his next oldest brother, and he was kinda um– Sort of like the golden accident baby who, um, kind of went a more straight and narrow pass and was the first in the family to go to college and was part of the first, of one of the earliest cohorts of black engineers at Virginia Tech. Um. But yeah, my, my, so one of my older brothers– one of my dad’s older brothers, one of my uncles, um, we did eventually find out that he had passed. Um, and I think there was probably substance abuse in that case. And then my dad’s other brother, we have just have not heard from. He was a musician, so I think, I alw–I always feel like I have some sort of bond with him in that sense and maybe I got some of my music love from him. Um, but yeah. He– I think, on his side it was– Maybe a little bit of substance and a little bit of, um, like, relationship, um, problems and challenges as well. Kind of led to his uh– disappearance. From our lives.
Mhm. And, um, what pe– as a child, what people in your life were really imp– was there anyone who was really influential to you or, anyone you would call, like, a role model or, like, personal heroes growing up who, who influenced and shaped who you became?
Yeah! Um. Definitely my two youth pastors. Um, when we moved to Virginia, we went to a big southern Baptist mega church called Liberty. And, uh, my parents enjoyed it for a couple years and then they felt called to a smaller church where they could feel more, uh, more of a part of things and, uh, have a, have a ministry of their own. But my sister and I really, um, fell in love with that church and so, and that was my, like, number one community in middle– err, well, even earlier than that. Fourth grade onwards. And so I had two full-time youth pastors–Ben and Jean Paul. Um. They– Yeah, just really model, um– Love, love for God, um, faithfulness to family, um– [pause] Passion, passion for church and for worship. Um, they gave me opportunities to, to test my sense of calling to, to ministry. Gave me opportunities to lead, uh, with the praise band and to teach occasionally on Wednesday night youth group.
[00:06:11]
Um, yeah, and they, they grabbed me and a few other of the, um, really passionate guys in the youth group and kind of, like, did a smaller mentorship group with the– with a few of us. Um, so yeah, those, those guys have really, uh, stuck with me throughout the years. And now that I am in a youth ministry capacity, it– it’s cool to think back on, um, how the, the full circle has come around.
Mhmmmm. Um, and so, is– so this is a good segue. So I was gonna ask how religion and spirituality played into your– childhood. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey with religion? Growing up?
Absolutely. Yeah, my parents, um, became– Christians in college. They were part of a campus ministry called, uh, Campus Crusade for Christ which is now called CREW. Um, they had grown up in and around church, but I think they would say that they didn’t, um, connect with it personally until college. Um, and so, that is as you may know, a fairly evangelical leaning ministry, and so that was kind of like the Christian subculture that I kind of grew up in. Um, a lot of like, non denominational Bible Churches. Um, my dad liked big churches when I was really young because there was a sort of anonymity and he’s a fairly, like, shy person and kind of enjoyed the ability to, like, go into the service, go out without having, um, everyone know his business. So. I– I kind of grew up with a– a mix of like, small bible churches early on and then, ear– well, later in elementary school and then on, after that, a lot of big churches with a lot of resources. Um, huge staff, um, the ability to, like, go to church camp and have these, like, super mountaintop spiritual passionate experiences with, like, the loud music and, um– Yeah, the, wa– walking in the aisle and saying the Sinner’s Prayer. Um, so yeah, that was kind of like my church experience and, um, yeah. My, my parents had me do Awana as well, which is kinda like cub scouts for, for– but like Christian. So instead of getting badges for, like, learning how to tie a certain kind of knot, you get a badge for memorizing a different bible verses. So I was in that from like the Cubbies age, which I think is like, starts at 2, all the way through my senior year [sigh] of high school. Um, and so, yeah, I– there was just definitely this kind of like h–saturated immersion in church and, um– Uh, faith, um, from as soon as I can remember. And, um, I– made a decision to follow Christ when I was 5.
[00:09:05]
Um, so I, I remember crawling into my sleeping bag, when– this was when we were still in the Bay Area. And like, using that as, like, a– a way to achieve enough privacy to have this, like, sacred moment where I could pray a sinner’s prayer and accept Jesus into my heart as my Lord and Savior, um, and yeah! It wasn’t really until– late middle school, early high school that, um, John– Ben and Jean Paul, um, through their mentorship I kind of learned what it meant to actually walk, uh, with Christ and to, uh, adopt spiritual practices that could help me, um– You know, learn, um, what it meant to be a follower of Christ on a daily basis. Uh, but yeah! That, it was, like, the spirituality piece was always there. Um– There was never really any period where I didn’t, like, have God as kind of like, one of my basic axiomatic commitments, um, you know, it was just like a basic epistemic thing of like, of course there’s God! I never really experienced a prolonged period of doubt. Or even like a short period of doubt. Um, definitely have had ups and downs, but it was never part of my journey to like, question whether God was there or whether God loved me.
Um, one thing I’m wondering as you’re, as you’re speaking and talking about the cultural specificities of, like, how different church culture can be from one space or area to another. I’m curious if, um, race and ethnic identity had any sort of intersection with, with the churches that you were in in any meaningful way.
Yeah! Love that question. Um. [pause] We went to a fairly cross-cultural church in the Bay area. But I was so young that– Even though it did have an important formative experience subconsciously, I did not have any, uh, lasting memories of that? And so, uh, the Southern California period was when we started going to the mega churches. And of course those tend to skew more heavily white. And so, my– My experience of church– That I can like, visually recall is predominantly white spaces, and that continued, uh, to Virginia and the, and the mega church that we attended there. And so, um, an interesting, sort of parallel motif that happened as we moved to Virginia was that, um, that was my first time entering a community where race was a salient personal identification factor for people? Um, the places where we lived in California, um, and they probably compounded by, like, youthful– the, the bliss of youthful ignorance, um, were just not places where race was woven into the fabric of, of culture. Uh, and so moving to Hampton, Virginia was my first time experiencing the idea of, like, expected to perform my blackness in a certain way. You know, being expected to dress a certain way, talk a certain way, um, and to have this, like, threshold that I’m supposed to meet, and if I don’t meet it, I’m not black, I’m not black enough, I’m white.
[00:12:27]
Uh. I’m trying to be white. Um, and so– Experiencing that led me to kind of turn away from blackness and my blackness specifically. Because it felt like I didn’t have access to that, um, and so, if I couldn’t be black, then I had to be something else, and what I choose to be or like what was kind of natural for me to default to was to be Christian. So, uh, I really, like, made youth group and, and faith, like, my, my number one identity. Um– All throughout– Middle school and high school. And I did not really think, um, profoundly about what it meant to be a black Christian or to, like, have culture and faith intersect until, like, the end of college. Um. And so, since then it’s been a journey of kind of, of walking that back and, and looking back at, “okay, so these are ways in which I was forced to, um, play into some harmful norms of whiteness when I was at that church growing up, and these are ways in which I can be unapologetically black and Christian now.
And so, you mentioned college– doesn’t sound like you had one instant that was like “this is my calling”, um. But how did it shift from “this is my identity, I’m a Christian” to like, “oh, this is my purpose”? Uh, “this is what I’m gonna do for a living, this is what I’m gonna do for my, with my life”. Um, I don’t know if that was when you decided to go to college or just sort of how, how you decided that would actually be your stud– field of study?
Yeah, yeah. Um– So, I think because of this, like– Deep immersion that I mentioned, uh, just like always being at church five days out of the week. You know, by, by the end of high school [laughs], my entire Sunday let’s see if I can remember everything. It was, Sunday school, then service, then, ah, praise b– praise band practice. Then, um, our high school Christian show choir, [laughing] which we would– in which we learned, like, Toby Mack songs and other, like, fun Christian pop songs. And we learned choreo and, uh, choir parts and then we, like, took it on tour to, like, youth detention centers and halfway houses. And we’d perform and always have like a gospel message in the middle. So, like, my entire Sunday was that, and then finished it out with Awana bible memorization club, um, so.
[00:15:02]
There was that huge immersion period that kind of just led me to the point where, I think subconsciously, I, like– church was my favorite place to be. It was kind of my happy place. And the more that I encountered of, like, the idea of getting paid to be in church, the, the [snap] clearer it was that I wa– would do anything I needed to do to make that happen for me. So my junior year of high school, we went on a short term mission trip to, uh, the Dominican Republic. Um. In Santo Domingo. And– I remember having a feeling of like “Oh. This is it.” Like. [pause] This is what I’m supposed to be doing with my life. I’m supposed to be doing, uh, missionary work. I’m supposed to be working with local churches and supporting them in– and their work of reaching out to their neighborhoods. Um, I’m supposed to be talking with people about their prayer requests and, and their lives and, uh, trying to support them. Um, and hopefully sharing, uh, my hope in Jesus with them. Uh, and it was also very cool to, uh, encounter a global God and a global faith in church for the first time. So all of those things kind of coalesced to make me feel like I was being called to missionary work. Um, and so I went to college with the idea that I would, uh, major in Latin American studies, uh, in order to go be a missionary in Latin America. But then also, um, take the classes that would be prerequisites for physical therapy school because I wanted to have some kind of, like, marketable skill set that I could use as, like, a entry point into missions. So that one, I’m not having to rely on raising support, but then two, um, to kind of like have that holistic approach of, um– Addressing physical needs and spiritual needs together. So that was my plan all throughout college. I had applied to physical therapy programs the year after college. I was taking sort of, like, a gap year. Um. Working at a church in, in Charlottesville, Virginia. And it was only in February of that year where I felt God telling me, “I called you to that because, without that calling you wouldn’t have taken this step and this step and this step to get here. But now that you are here, I want to, like, take the whole PT, um– Uh– Journey out of your trajectory and push you more towards traditional– a traditional pastoral ministry path.” So that’s what led me to apply to Seminary, and then finish seminary just, last, last spring.
And where was college and seminary?
[shuffling] Yeah, I went to college at Yale. And I went to seminary at Princeton Theological Seminary. Just down the road from where I’m at now.
And where– and tell me where you’re working now and what your, your title and job is there?
Yeah! So I am the Associate Pastor of Youth and Community Engagement at the Reformed Church of Highland Park, New Jersey, in Central Jersey about an hour away from New York City.
[00:18:07]
Yeah. I, took–
[overlapping, inaudible]
Oh, go ‘head.
No, no, keep going.
Oh, I was just gonna say I, um, I was applying for jobs all over the place, basically from January through May of last year and, you know, a lot of places were on hiring freezes. Um. And I– and this is sort of another wrinkle of my journey– I got confirmed to– into the Episcopal Church in early 2019. And so, the– The sense of, um, moving towards the Episcopal Priesthood was something that I was pursuing for the rest of that year. Um, and what I was planning to do was to do another year of studies, because Princeton is a Presbyterian seminary, and so, in order to get ordained into the Episcopal priesthood, they wanna make sure that you have at least a year of specifically Episcopal studies. So. I was trying to enter the, uh, ordination process such that I could get the credentials to go do that extra year of studies. And I just ran into a lot of bureaucratic red tape. And, um, ineptitude, honestly. And that had– that led me to plan B, which was applying to a bunch of other things that weren’t as directly gonna launch me towards the priesthood. So, uh, this church, uh, came about through kind of like that scrambling plan B, plan C. But, now that I’ve been here– I mean, as, as soon as I was here for even a couple weeks, I knew that that was what God had originally intended for me. It just took kind of like a one [audio breaks up]. I mean, I didn’t get here.
And, um, can you tell me a little bit about the Reformed Church of Highland Park’s, um, the– their particular, uh, I’m gonna say brand of religion, or [laughs] [inaudible overlap] and– yeah– and, and who are the communities that you work with and, and serve there?
Absolutely. Yeah. So a big part of the reason why I feel– Really settled and happy here even though it’s not necessarily right on path with my overall sense of direction as an Episcopalian is that, um, uh, Reformed Church of Highland Park, RCHP for short, has as you mentioned, like, a very unique brand of Christianity. Um. So pastors, uh, Steph and Seth who are the head co–pastors have been here for 20 years and in that time have taken it from, like, like many mainline churches, kind of a dying congregation to a thriving, very progressive, even radical in, in some regards, uh, congregation. Uh, especially in it’s, it’s especially interesting because we’re a part of a historically conservative denomination, the Reformed Church in America, RCA. Uh, but now we are, uh, dually aligned with the United Churches of Christ, UCC, um, so!
[00:21:00]
Um, yeah! Uh, RCHP is a very progressively minded church. We are, uh, open and affirming, for and with LGBTQIA+ persons. We, um, do a lot of great social service programs such as refugee settlement. Um, we have amazing stories within this church of people who lived within the church for sanctuary for years at a time. Um, stories of, um, Seth and Steph working hard to get people out of detention. Um, working hard to get people’s families here as they’ve been separated. Um, so we do a lot of work in, in those kinds of areas. We do work with unaccompanied minors. Um, work with trafficking victims. I actually worked with the program for, um, a few hours this past summer. Um, we do affordable housing, uh. So we, um. The church will– well, the church has a whole like social services arm called RCHPAHC–Affordable Housing Corporation. And so that arm of the church ministry owns several properties around the area that we rent at a very affordable area for, um, re–entering folks, uh, refugees, uh, folks that fall into the categories that I mentioned already. Um– We have a, uh, a thrift shop. We have a, um, like a boutique shop that sells, um, crafts and other, um, items. Created by refugees. Um, we have a cafe that is staffed by refugees and sells, um, culturally, uh, appropriate food for, for refugee folks and of course, for everyone–anyone else who wants to partake. So! I’m sure I’m forgetting some things, but it’s just been a blessing to come into a church where, that’s doing so many things that I probably couldn’t even have, like, drawn up in seminary if a professor had told me to, like, draw up your, like, your dream church. Uh, write out the ministries that it carries out. Um, and I– I’m just– very, very privileged to have this be the place that I start out. And the place that kind of directs my imagination of what church can look like.
Mmmm. I– as– so like– as you’ve moved through, um, you know, Evangelical and Episcopalian and Presbyterian and into this church, I know you said there’s– that you’ve never really had that moment of, um, of, of doubting, um, or not believing in God. But have you ever had a moment of, um– Having to like, reorganize, or, or, of, um, what you believe– to use language that you used that I love– following in Christ’s steps. Of like, redefining or, or con– or expanding your learning of what that meant? Or has it, have you ever had moments of like– “oh, this is sort of challenging my morals and I need to con–” Can you share anything about that?
Absolutely. Yeah. Um.
[00:24:05]
[laughs] So, I think one of the big movements that I’m seeing among a lot of Christians my age and my generation is this whole deconstruction, reconstruction, of process. Where a lot of folks like me grew up in conservative Evangelical spaces. Many of us are, like, very grateful for a lot of the things that we took away from those spaces. I’m super grateful for Awana and how it taught me to memorize scripture and hide scripture in my heart, uh, such that if I am, like, in a moment of temptation I can just call up certain promises of God, um, in the moment. Um, I’m grateful for Ben and Jean Paul, I’m grateful for so many things! Uh, but I am also– I also had to go through a period of letting go of certain things. Um, parts of that world view, um, as you know, uh, sadly– The Evangelical world has made many deals with the Devil, uh, over the past couple of generations politically, right? And so. It’s led to, um– A world view that– In many ways is– does not look like what Jesus preached or taught. Um, and so I was able to kind of surround myself with a lot of Evangelically leaning people in college even though I was at Yale. And so, you would think that that would be a place where I would be confronted with a lot of different world views– and I was! But it was not really until Princeton seminary that I encountered a large number of Christians whose world views directly conflicted with mine. At– in college it was very easy to say “oh, well that person believes that because they’re not Christian.” But then at Princeton, I didn’t have that, like, safeguard anymore. And so I’m, you know, in class with a lot of women who are called to be pastors or who are already pastors, and that was not even something that was even discussed at my Baptist church growing up. And I’m in class with a bunch of, um– Folks who are, uh, LGBTQ+. And, um, seem to really love God and to love scripture and those were always presented to me as, as polar opposites growing up. And so, um, yeah! My first summer, uh, after my first year, I like, did a deep dive into egalitarianism, complementarianism, women’s leadership in the church. And that’s what forced me to leave the denomination that I was pursuing at the time, which was the PCA–Conservative Presbyterian Denomination. I have had worked at a PCA church the year before coming to, uh, Princeton, and so. That was kind of my most immediate, uh, landing point for when I considered getting ordained. Um, but yeah, doing a lot of, like, prayer. A lot of, uh, listening to my first woman pastor, uh, which was at an Episcapal church that I had happened to work at my first year. Through the recommendation of a friend from that PCA church in Virginia. Um. And so, kind of God was working together all of these threads and, um, giving me the opportunity to have, um, my– to suspend, suspend my presuppositions about what’s right and what’s wrong. Uh, what God affirms and what God doesn’t affirm.
[00:27:19]
And then, the following summer I did a similar thing with, with sexuality. Um. And– One funny, like, thread with that is, um, I was dating someone who, uh, was– is bi. Um, and at the time, I was part of– well, I wasn’t part of– I assented to, uh, this perspective called “Side B”? Which, there’s like Side A, Side B, and there’s other things too, but Side B is kind of like, “I’m Christian. I believe that,” um, “I, I be– I hold to a traditional definition of marriage and sexuality, however I don’t believe that it’s a sin to be gay. Um, so that means I’m gonna be celibate.” So there’s, there’s this whole community of people that– Christians that call themselves “Side B”. So I was kind of, like, in that mindset at the time. Like, “Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s fine. Um, I don’t, I don’t believe in conversion therapy, I don’t believe you need to pray the gay away, but I don’t think that you can enter into a, a relationship.” Um, and so, you know, very understandably she couldn’t, uh, she couldn’t see herself moving forward with me with that perspective. So that relationship ended. And then less than a year later, I was getting dumped for being affirming, and she wasn’t affirming. So kind of like, I feel like that’s kind of one of the clearest, um, examples of kind of like that deconstruction, reconstruction process that I, uh, had to go through, uh, during seminary.
Mmm. Um, and, and now that you work at, um, Reformed Church of Highland Park with a lot of immigrant communities and asylum seekers and refugees and many of the, the kids I think in your workshop are, are [inaudible], has there been any, um– what has been the learning in that space for you in terms of that space for you in terms of how you meet that community and serve that community?
Yeah– Yeah. Um– [pause] I think– Growing up, part of– The conservative Evangelical worldview that I enbibed was, included, sadly, like a, a disdain for the poor. Uh, for, for the oppressed. Um, kind of this meritocracy mindset where, like, if you’re successful, it’s because you worked hard and because you’re talented. Because you’re a person of character. And if, and if you’re struggling, it’s because you’re lazy, uh, or because you have certain moral failings in your life. And so, that, that has– That was something that I started to deconstruct in seminary. Um, but I think it’s, it’s still something that– Rears its head in a different way once you are, like, right in front of folks who represent the stories that you, um– Wrote, wrote– would have written off previously.
[00:30:08]
Um– So yeah, we have, um– People, young people in our youth ministry who have been victims of trafficking, who, um, have fled wars. Um. And– One, one of the interesting things is that, um, us– well, man– many of the young people from those backgrounds do come from more conservative, uh, worldviews. Um, fam– families with more conservative worldviews when it comes to things like sexuality and gender. Um, and so, there’s this kind of interesting dynamic where if you’re doing the progressive, inclusive Christian thing of reaching out to, uh, refugees and, and the needy and the oppressed, you will end up often times becoming close in community with folks who may or may not share the progressive world views that are kinda leading you to do the very thing that brought you into contact with them. So I’m sure that in a non–pandemic year I would have come up against that more often, but there is, uh, one, one instance, uh, one young person in our high school youth group for who– for whom that’s the case. And so it’s just been interesting to kind of, uh, walk with him to make sure that he knows that, um, I’m here for him. We’ve been getting, uh, like one-on-ones, um, every other week and, um, it’s been cool to see his, his, his passion for God and, and his faith. But also, it’s been, um, you know, tough to see him kind of pull between those two things, like his, his family circles that are a little more conservative than in this church. Which is more progressive.
Mhm. Oh! I wanna ask you about ar– how, how art plays into your work. I know you talk about music earlier and then also maybe talking a little bit about the book and your, your Instagram presence and that work.
Yeah! Absolutely! Yeah, uh, music has been a big part of my life, um, since elementary school. Ah, I started taking piano lessons when I was 9. And then, uh, did the whole middle school, high school band. Played trumpet, um, I had a garage band in high school. Uh, we played Hawaiian music because my best friend and court of the– sort of the founder of the group was um, half Hawaiian. And so we played all around town. Played, like, Lowes’ parking lot and Sonic parking lot. But we also played a couple of, like, fun big gigs as well. Um, so that kind of, like, expanded my song writing, uh, horizon and, uh, instrument, instrumentation. Uh, expa–expanded my abilities as an instrumentalist. Um, and we recorded an album, so I got to learn a little bit about that process. Um– and then in college I led, um, praise and worship for my campus ministry. And– Um–
[00:33:04]
Was part of a song writing club on campus. Um, I was also in a soul, a pop band that, uh, opened up for Jesse J at our spring fling. So that was super fun. Uh, and then, yeah, the year after college where I worked at that church in Charlottesville, I was actually the, the music intern for a fairly accomplished church music producer. So that was the year that I got to spend a lot of time writing, arranging, producing. Uh, he had like all his recording equipment at the church that I could use basically at any time. So I, I put out a lot of music that year. I had an album release show. Um, and then, yeah, throughout seminary, it was definitely, uh, kind of on the backburner a little but. Uh, I definitely learned that, to have the resources and the inspiration and the time is kind of like the, the perfect storm for songwriting, and if you’re missing any one of those three, it gets a little bit harder. Um, I definitely have the time in this se– in seminary, not quite as much inspiration or uh, definitely not as many resources for the actual production of music. Um, but yeah! Now that I’m, like, kind of, like, settled into my post–school life, I definitely wanna start getting back more into music. Um, Amus, our music worship pastor’s, uh, a songwriter and, uh, definitely has a, a strong music background as well so, I’m excited to see what we can make with that. But yeah! As far as my ministry goes now, I do try to do, um– Have, have nights with the youth group where we talk about songs that we are listening to at the time or, like, songs that are popular right now and kind of, like, what to affirm as Christians. What to subvert as Christians in those, like, pop culture texts. And, um, of course we try to sing when, when we can, together, um, but yeah! Then there’s also the whole, like, Instagram stuff that you mentioned, um. And that was kind of like a fun project that came out of, um, entering into the Episcopal tradition and learning more about formal prayer and specifically the book of common prayer. Um, so I started going to, uh, the morning prayer service at the Episocapal church down the street from me going into my final year of seminary, and, um, I started to, to pick up on the, uh, the short prayers that were used, uh, for either, um, a particular week of the liturgical year or, uh, there’s a bunch of similar prayers in the back that are for certain topics like, for leisure or for, uh, for those who have taken monastic orders or things like that. And I started to think about what it would look like to have prayers like that called “colics” that, uh, are written for contemporary situations. So, uh, started to write prayers for when you are about to ask someone out, or when you’ve just gotten trolled on the internet, and kind of like combining this very traditional form of prayer with these very modern concerns and it just, it was kind of like something that immediately struck a nerve with people.
[00:36:19]
Um. And so, it went from, like, sharing, sharing some of them in text messages to sharing some of them on Twitter and then a lot of folks, um, encouraged me to start an Instagram account. And then, before I had been on Instagram for very long at all, I had, uh, someone reach out to me to, uh, connect me with potential agents. And so I signed with an agency and then my agent started shopping a book concept to publishers and by, by then, had already written, like, hundreds and hundreds of these, because I had made it just kind of like a daily spiritual practice for myself. Um, I, I’ve, I’ve discovered that, um, although I grew up in a very, uh– Grew up in a tradition that was very heavy on spontaneous extemporaneous prayer, and almost saw formal prayer as like, rote and going through the motions and bad, um, that having both together is a really cool balance because, when you are writing out a prayer, you know, you really focus on the right– not the right. The best wording for what you want to express to God. And you’re able to bring in certain scriptural references that you may not be able to think of right off the cuff. And you’re able to kind of, like, craft something that’s similar, like, similarly to, I imagine, a psalmist writing a psalm. It’s not necessarily like right off the cuff, but it is kind of like out of the heart of what you’re feeling in the moment. And it’s also something that you can go back to later, because, you know, as soon as you pray an extemporaneous prayer it’s kinda gone. But I thought one of the coolest things of that particular spiritual practice is the fact that, um, I’m probably gonna be in a situation again where I need to, like, define a relationship with someone. And so I can write a prayer for being in the situation right now. But! I’ll probably need it again in six months time. And so, just to have kind of like that bank. And so that’s what I’m excited about with the book, is to have kind of just like, instead of just having to scroll through Instagram or like, scroll through files on my computer, just to be able to go to a table of conscience and say “right now I need a prayer for,” um, “when you’ve just gotten ghosted” and just kind of like, have the words to fall into rather than having to conjure up the words.
Um. So. I’m looking at our time and I’m gonna– there’s a couple questions I skipped that we might have time to go back to. But I’m gonna ask sort of these wrap up questions and just we’ll see what time we have.
Okay.
One is, um, what is a change, like, change in the world and change– maybe, maybe specifically in the community you’re working in now?
Uh huh.
Um. Or in– what kind of change do you– would you like to see for the communities you serve or for the world we live in? Like, what is that? What is that vision of change look like for us?
[00:38:57]
Wow. That is a, uh, all encompassing question. [laughs]
[laughs]
Um– [pause] So I’ll start big and then I’ll narrow–I’ll zoom it in. So. I think, like, big picture. Um, I am one of the folks that’s really excited about, um– Sort of the– [pause] The– What’s the best word for it– Um. The, the– The coming to the floor of politicians and political movements that are, are grassroots. That are, um– Brought about by organizers who are out in the streets, really connecting with people. Uh, and, based on, um– Really protecting our future rather than, kind of like holding out the status quo. So there’s, you know, folks like AOC and the Squad and, uh, Representative Cori Bush. Um, and, sort of the– The, the, the whole– S– uh, stream that I see of, uh, um, folks that are not going to– Continue to, you know, hold out for, um– Or, to be beholden to, uh, corporate interests and, and big business and things like that, but are really ready to like, make, to take big risks! And to like, try to make huge structural changes. Um, to see if we can, like, try something else because the things we’ve been doing over and over again aren’t working. Um, so I think that’s like a big picture thing that I am excited about. Um, and, you know, even, even as we see kind of this polarization, uh, that I think in large part comes from the fact that people don’t have any bandwidth anymore? You know, like when, when the economy is struggling and cities are dying and people are just, like, put in fight– flight or fight mode, they don't have as much bandwidth to, to do like the deconstruction, reconstruction process that I described earlier to, like, really examine their world views. And so just kind of, kind of dives us deeper into our, our silos. Um, so even as that’s happening, I think that there’s something really encouraging about how there’s this whole, uh, stream of, of folks who are– Starting to explore what democratic socialism can look like and what a Green New Deal can look like. Um– What Medicare for All can look like and things like that. So, more specifically, for my community, um– I think one of the interesting things about this church is that, whereas I grew up with a huge emphasis on a personal relationship with Jesus and, uh, Bible study and, and prayer and kind of like personal piety, um. And then I had to learn sort of like a social dimension to my faith later on. The k– the kids in my youth group have sort of the opposite journey, where they’ve been very well formed in caring about justice, but, um, in many cases the– The, the love for scripture and the love for, for a prayer life and other spiritual practices has not been firmly inculcated in them.
[00:42:24]
So I think the change that I’m excited about, um, that I can hopefully be a part of here is to really kind of, like, demonstrate what it looks like to marry those two things and to have the two of them feed into each other in a positive feedback cycle.
Mhm– Um. Okay. If there, so if there was a movie or a play or a book about your life–
[laughs]
Um. Maybe specifically if it’s easier, about your life, um, at RCHP now.
Mhm.
What’s, um. What would have to be in it?
Hmm– Wow. [laughs] Um.
My–
[overlapping, inaudible] Sorry, go ahead.
No, good, good, go.
I was just gonna say, the first thing that comes to mind in this, like, a very honest portrayal of what singleness and loneliness look like? Um. [pause] ‘Cause I, I think that– That maybe is something that doesn’t appear on the surface to folks that know me here at the church? But it is something that, like, is on my mind every day. Just, the difficulty of– Having the first time in my life where I’m, like, legitimately, like, marriageable and stable and, like, kinda ready to, ready to launch out into kind of creating a, a family and a life for myself. Is the year where, you know. 99.9% of the opportunity for that is removed. Um. And– Yeah! It, it gets tough. Um, you know, coming home to an empty apartment every day, and, um– Feeling as if the, the thing that I always thought would give me the, the reason and the, the energy to go out and do my work in the world, um– Isn’t there. And so it’s sometimes, I, like, am very tempted to give into the feeling of, like, what’s the point of doing all this if it doesn’t, uh, result in the life that I have always thought that I would have? And even maybe felt entitled to. Um, so, yeah, that’s kind of one thing, just. I would hope that that, that play or movie, TV show would, like, portray that in a really honest– but also, you know, hopeful way. Not in a, um– Purely despairing way, but like, point out, “okay, but this is how you can persevere” and even like, uh, be blessed through periods of loneliness and singleness, um.
[00:44:59]
This is how you can, no– I think another part of my life that was big before the pandemic was, like, figuring out what dating looks like, um. In, in this day and age with, with dating apps and, uh, kind of like just the overall cultural themes of, like, people getting married later. Um, marriage becoming less of a, um, a dream for many people. People not feeling like they can’t get married because they don’t have that financial stability. Um. And so– I think, yeah. A lot of, a lot– you know, a lot of shows have, like, tried to tackle this, but I think I would love to see a show that tackles my life deal with that in, like, a particularly Terry–esque way. Um– The ups and downs of that. I think that would be important as well. But yeah! As far as, like, my actual church work goes. Um– I think, you know, one thing that I would like to see is, um– The process of learn– like, the character development process of making– like, learning how to give my best to my work and not to evaluate the success of my work based on how good I feel about it afterwards. Um, because I, I am always tempted to– yeah! Like, use, use my subjective feelings as the metric for how successful any given, uh, high school youth group night or middle school youth group night or any like, confirmation class has gone. But I think one of the things that God’s been trying to teach me during this time is that, um, I just need to, like, bring what I have. Bring my act of faithful service and, like, lay it in the offering plate and see what God does with it. And it doesn’t mean that I don’t, like, debrief afterwards and evaluate what could have gone better. But, it’s just a matter of like– Not letting my own evaluation of how things went be– The end-all be-all for my perception of how things are going overall.
Right, that sort of decentering of the self and letting the eye be the eye. Like not–
Yeah, that’s exactly it.
Um. Do you think– I’m wondering in this moment, do you think anything– that solitariness, that loneliness– do you think anything about that is embedded in– Religion in anyway? I mean, it might just be embedded in the fabric of being a human.
Mhm hmm.
And. But I think about Jesus’s journey or, um– Or even that like, uh, you know, historically, certain religions require people who are leading our faith to be celibate or be, you know.
[inaudible]
Do you think if there’s anything– I mean like, I, I, I’m, there’s something interesting in how your personal story sort of pushes up against some of those–
Mhm hmm. Yeah, I think that’s a really great point that you bring up. Um, I think solitude is, um, a spiritual practice that is shot through the Christian tradition. Um– In many respects, for very good reason and maybe in other respects for not the best of reasons. Um, but yeah, I think that there’s very much something to be said for vows of celibacy and, and you know, vows of singleness that, um, a, a majority of the leaders of our tradition have taken in order to enter the positions that they held.
[00:48:18]
Whether it’s, uh, monastic life or the priesthood. Um, I think there’s something about that that kind of just frees you up. Um and, that’s, that’s the same reason why Paul highly recommended it. And it’s, it’s so interesting because, you know, in the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, you know. Having kids and, like, having a family is like, considered the number one thing you can do in life. Um, but then Paul comes and kind of, like, subverts that in a really interesting way. Uh– but yeah, anyway. Um. I, I think there’s– Many points in my life where I just wanna say to God, like, “hey! I’m cool being single, but can you just like, tell me if that’s gonna be the overall case for me? ‘Cause then I could, like, [snap] take a vow of celibacy and like– Be done with the back and forth of like, wondering yes or no.” Um. That’ll just allow me to, like, streamline my energy into other things, and, and not continue to like, ache for this thing that I want so deeply. I can kind of, like, begin to wean myself, divest myself from the desire. But of course, it, you just don’t really work like that. I think, you know, even for the people, uh, in, in the past who’ve taken those vows, you know. It was– I’m, I’m sure it helped a lot, I’m sure it, like, made things clearer and cut boundaries. But at the same time, I think, you know. There was still– Probably yearning and desire and, and inner conflict. And so, um, yeah, I think to get back to your original question, yeah. I think that solitude and loneliness is embedded in Christian calling and in Chrisian life. Um, because if we’re Christians, if we’re like little Christs, then we want to, like, follow after a person who– yes he had twelve friends with him, he traveled around, but he did not have a home. He did not have a, a family in the sense that, like, in the nuclear family sense. Um– So I think there’s no way th– no way around that for anyone, uh, who is a Christian. I think that there is an element that we all have to carry that cross in a certain way.
So– that’s so beautiful, going back to, like, a phrase you used over and over which is just like, deconstruction, reconstruction of like. How do I negotiate my contemporary life and my heart, which I know is, you know, truly– And, and what we’ve been taught, so. Um. So, that feels like a good sort of note to end on. Um. But, what haven’t I asked? Is there anything I haven’t asked you that like, I, I’ve missed that I should ask you or that you’d like to speak to?
That was a pretty– Wide spanning conversation.
[00:50:58]
I think we’ve kind of touched on everything that’s been on my heart the past couple of years.
Yeah, we’ve covered a lot of ground. The only– so one of the ones I skipped that is sort of a sweet question is, um. Um. Do you remember falling in love for the first time?
Aww!
[inaudible] I don’t know if that’s a–
[laughs]–
story to tell or not.
Yeah! Um– There’s always kind of like a, um, a question of like, when I was in– like my first crush in elementary school. Was that love? Or like, does that not count. Do I, like, make high school the cut off? Do I make college the cut–off? Um. I definitely, like, have– yeah, certain, like, first crushes or, like, first, first time passing a certain threshold of love. Um, I had this huge crush in 7th grade on a girl that ended up becoming like a, kind of like will they, won’t they for the next four or five years. Um. And I would, like, write her little love letters in a notebook and pass it to her and then she would write me something back and pass the note back– well, the book back to me. Um, and, let’s see. I would say, like, college, I had my first relationship, so that was, like, definitely a threshold of, of love. Um– We had, like, nothing in common. But we were, like, both strong Christians and at the time I felt like that was really the only thing that mattered. And then I learned quickly thereafter that you have to have more compatibility than just that. [laughs] Um. And then yeah, I would say, like, more recently– Um. I had, like, a pandemic crush where I reached out to someone that I had met just a couple times, several years earlier, and I saw her in an Instagram picture and I was like “oh!” I, like, didn’t have time to pursue anything with her, but I kinda always have wondered what would have happened. So I reached out to her on Facebook and we, like, started chatting and I, like, very quickly again for her. And she, like, gave it a shot but ultimately never had those feelings for me. But n– now, she’s like one of my closest friends. Um. So that was like, a very interesting kind of, like, first passing of a certain threshold of love as well. Um, and I also like, last year– er, just about this time last year had, I would say probably like my deepest experience of mutual, passionate love with someone, even though it was only like a month that we were together. Um, and that, that’s the woman that I described earlier, where she broke up with me because of different views on sexuality. Uh. So yeah! Um, I don’t know if I– I don’t know which one of those to call like, my first love but. Those are all definitely significant to me.
And, love in the time of pandemic!
Yeah.
[inaudible]
It’s tough.
Um, alright. Beautiful. I’m gonna stop recording. Unless, there’s nothing else that, there’s nothing that, if you were interviewing yourself, that you would have asked
[laugh]
that you can think of.
I don’t think so.
[00:53:52]