Jennifer Hinton is the administrator for Unity Square. She describes how her faith has transformed throughout her life and how it has helped her throughout her various careers.
“I also find that just in– generally, when you start to learn how to listen better, and listen differently, it’s a skill that you can use anywhere.”
ANNOTATIONS
Annotations coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Susana Plotts-Pineda
Interview conducted remotely
March 10, 2021
Transcription by Cara Del Gaudio
00:00:00
Great, we’ll be recording. So before we start, I just need to say my name, so I’m Susana, I’m in Brooklyn, and it is March e– tenth. What day is this? March 10th, yup, 10AM. So if you could just say your name and where you’re at, also.
Hi, my name is Jennifer Hinton from Unity Square Community Center in New Brunswick, New Jersey, on March 10th at 10AM.
Great, um, thank you so much. I’m just gonna start with, um, you know, where were you born, Jen?
Um, I was born in Plainfield, New Jersey, um, I have lived in New Jersey my entire life.
Okay, um, and what was, um, Plainfield, New Jersey like when you were growing up?
Well, I was born in Plainfield, New Jersey, but I only lived there until about, um, I guess, about three years old. So I don’t really remember Plainfield, New Jersey. So, I grew up in Hamilton Square, New Jersey, which is in Mercer County.
Okay.
And, um, what was life– I had– I’m the eldest of four children, and, um, I lived there until I got out of graduate school, so, uh, I guess the first twenty-four years of my life. And, um, it was very normal, typical, suburban life, you know? House, and four kids and a dog, and, you know, going to school, and coming home and playing with home and [laughter] things like that, so–
Was it–
Nothing remarkable, really.
Was it like a suburb next to a city, or was it just sort of a town?
Yeah, Hamilton Square is about a fifteen minute drive out of the center of Trenton, New Jersey, so it’s a suburb of Trenton, New Jersey.
Um, and was it like– were you like outside a lot, or what was the environment like?
You know, it’s funny that we were outside a lot, and I think I thought about– we have thought about that a lot. We thought about it a lot when we had our own children, my husband and I had our three children, um, who also spent a lot of time outside when they were little, but we noticed that, um, as they got older, younger children really weren’t spending a lot of time outside. Certainly not unsupervised time, let’s put it that way, too. Um, so it would be– it was like arranged time outside. But, when I was a child, um, I don’t know, in the summer, you’d get up and have breakfast and disappear for the day, you know?
00:03:00
Uh huh. What were–
Day in the neighborhood, go to the park, always stay– you know, play with our friends on our street, or we’d go up to– there was a park, which, in the summer had, like, little camps. I don’t even know who it was that came, maybe it was like the YMCA or something, you know, somebody would come over, someone maybe about your age, maybe a little bit younger, and you know, do, like, crafts with us in the park and we’d play on the swingsets and things like that, and walk home for lunch and go back in the afternoon and we really didn’t really worry too much about being, like, you know, not home until dinnertime.
Yeah. Did you–
Pretty, really ideal time.
Did you feel, like, kind of like, responsible for your younger siblings, since you were the oldest?
Well, yes, oldest children– as an oldest child you always do feel a little responsible. I’m sure they would tell you that being responsible for them would not be how they might describe it, right? [Laughter] They might describe, “my bossy sister,” or something like that, but from my point of view I felt that I was being responsible for them. [This experience is explained with a smile] Yeah.
Was it boys, girls? How were– what are your siblings like?
I have a sister who’s about a year and a half younger than me, a brother who’s three years younger than me, and a sister who’s five years [younger], so three girls and a boy.
And, um, what did your parents do?
My mom was a stay-at-home mother until we got into high school and we went to private, like, a Catholic high school, so, yeah, there was tuition to pay, so she went back for a part-time work, and she was– she’s a teacher, elementary school teacher, and she, you know, she stayed working, you know, after that. Um, my dad was a chemist, so he started out in a lab, and the reason that we actually were moved to central New Jersey from north Jersey– because both of my parents were from north Jersey, like North Bergen and Jersey City– um, was because he got a job at a place– at a lab called American Cyanamid, which is– I don’t know, you probably don’t know Central Jersey too well, but it’s actually is still there, by the Quakerbridge Mall, it was like across the street. Well, way before the mall was there. Anyway, so he worked there for many years, and then he went and he got a job in New York City, and he was a salesman and then, when, I guess, around my graduating from high school, starting college, he started his own business. So he was sort of like a salesman for organic chemicals. So, he did pretty well in that until he died, about ten years ago.
00:05:50
Um, and so when he was working in New York he would, like, commute from Jersey?
Yeah. He’d take the train.
And, like, what were your experiences like in, like– so in elementary school you were in public school, and then you went to private school for high school?
No, I was in Catholic school all the way through– Catholic school all the way through, um, high school. And then I went to Rutgers University for my undergraduate and then my graduate work. Um, you know, just like, I mean, really, middle class suburban, you know– I don’t wanna say– I guess I’ll say like, kinda white bread experience, but it really was, you know [laughter]. I mean it was like, everybody looked the same, everybody, you know, was like most of the people, neighbors were Catholic, um, it was very homogeneous at that time, you know? So it wasn’t ‘til I got to high school that I was actually in school with people of color, so, you know.
Did you– did you like going to, like, elementary school? Do you have good memories of it, or do you remember–
Yeah, I mean, you know, there were like, you know, some teachers that were– we had, like, nuns in habits back then, you know, and sort of– every other year you went from a religious woman to a laywoman, so, you know, sometimes I think I liked the laywomen years better, but, you know, I had two, two religious sisters, both of whom I think left the order, eventually, I mean. It happened after I was out of school, but they were, like, so sweet and nice. They were very young, and we loved them and, you know, one of them introduced us to Simon and Garfunkel, and you know [laughter] kinda like, back in the day. So, you know we loved, you know, Sister Mary Magdalene and Sister Maria James, um, you know, we loved, I loved them. So, we had– you know– so it was pretty fun, you know? It was school.
00:07:54
Yeah. Did you– what, what was your relationship like to faith when you were, like, little? Did you– feel like you–
Well, I mean, yeah, we were like– every Sunday we went to church as a family, up until, like I said, I went to college, and um, ‘cause then I was not home anymore. And uh, you know– yeah, it was pretty much, like, the routine, you know? Go to church on Sunday morning, go to the bakery, get donuts, go home and eat breakfast, uh, you know, pray. I think that my parents had a pretty strong faith that they shared with us, and um, and that, you know, that certainly has remained with me. Um, and uh, most of my siblings, not all, but with me, and, um– but, you know, that also changes over the years with maturity, so, you know, it gets deeper, you– you– I’m, I’m very grateful for the foundation. That was pretty much, you know, the rituals and the routines, but, as you get older, you find deeper meaning in them.
Right. So like–
That probably didn’t happen, like– go ahead.
No, go ahead, go ahead.
No, I was gonna say, so, you do the things that you do, and then, you know, if you want to, which I did, you come to study and learn the deeper theological meanings of things, um, and so I guess my faith’s different than it was as a child, but it’s certainly deeper.
Right. As a child did you feel like it was more sort of like, a question of like, routine? And, or?
Yeah, I mean just like any child who’s brought up in a faith, I think it’s just, like, you– it’s sort of like getting dressed in the morning, brushing your teeth, you know, you go to school every day where you’re gonna pray and you’re gonna study religion, and so that was like the first twelve years of my school life, so, you know, I think, in turn, if I had gone to public school, it might’ve been different.
00:10:02
Um, and then, you know, so it wasn’t really– it was just, sort of, like, part of your life.
Right. Um, so what was it like– like, a strict school, or was it not? Was it– like, what was the, um, teaching–
You know, I don’t– I don’t know– I don’t know how to answer that because I guess it was, but when you’re a kid, you think going to school is strict. Um, you know, right? Like, you have to do stuff. You have to study, you have to– you know, I mean, you know, so I guess I do think it’s strict. Um, it was– you know– it was very different. You know, I’m going to school in, like, the ‘60s and the ‘70s. The early ‘60s even. You know, I was born in 1959, so, you know, 1968, when things in the country started changing very radically, um, you know, I was only like eight or nine years old. So it was kind of distant from me. Um, so– you know, I guess I didn’t really see it as strict because it was just the way it was. I mean, we went to class, we were in the same classroom all day, we didn’t move around. I mean, gym was going out on the playground, which was basically the parking lot. Um, when the school expanded– like, when I started in the school, I went to– it was the– it had– I was the first first grade class. So when– it was a new school, when it opened up, St. Gregory the Great in Hamilton Square, it had first, second, and third grade only. And I was in the first grade, okay? So, it was just the first floor and they built the second floor while we were in school. So, when they built the second floor, it was literally like a big empty second floor, like a warehouse almost, so that we would go and have gym there. And then when they had more classrooms and more room, then, like seventh and eighth grade, it was, like, the big deal that you could go across the hallway for a class. You know? That was it. You ate lunch at your desk.
Oh wow.
00:12:19
You know, there’s no cafeteria.
Yeah. Was it all girls, or was it co-ed?
No, it was co-ed, yeah. But the cafeteria didn’t come ‘til many years later. Actually, my mom, when she went back teaching, eventually went back and taught there and then it was like, so different. I mean, I had kids already by then and, you know, it was so different to see, like, a cafeteria, where, you know, people– you could buy lunch.
Yeah. Um, you said that like when you went to high school, it was– it was kind of, like, a different environment. What was– what was that like, or where did you go to high school?
Well, I was just– I went to Notre Dame High School, which is in Lawrenceville, New Jersey, and that is– I mean, yeah, of course, ‘cause that was like, you know, you switch classes, you go around, you have more freedoms, um, you know, you have more responsibility for getting yourself from one place to the other as opposed to just being like, “Go here, go here, go here, stay there.” So, you know, that was good, it was a good four years. Good experience.
What subjects did you– did you remember liking?
Um, hmm. I was pretty good in school, I did pretty well in school. So I really liked, I mean, I could tell you, like, the subjects I hated. Like, I hated Phys ed. And I hated math. But, you know, the languages, and psychology, which is what I ended up studying in college, you know, I guess I liked those.
Right. Yeah. Was it– was it a small high school?
Um, you know, I guess yes? I mean, it seemed pretty big to me, but I think there were about twelve hundred students in the school? So that’s like, only like three hundred per class? So I guess that’s pretty small.
Right.
Relative to some high schools I see now, so.
You were saying that, like, the, you know, when you were, like, in school, that the country kind of started changing, like at the end of the ‘60s– like, did you sense that? When you were like in school, or?
00:14:27
Well, I mean, ye– not in– not really so much in school, okay? So, you know, like, I’m in like, second or third grade, when it was, like, you know Woodstock and hippies and flower children. I mean, I would just, like, see that on the news. You know? Um, and my parents would watch it and they were– pretty young parents, so, in some ways they appreciated it, but– okay, by 1968 they had four kids and they were working hard, and even though they were probably in their mid-thirties, I think that they were already sort of like, “Okay, this is, like, pretty radical.” Um, I have one weird memory, which is actually much earlier. Like, 1964 or 5? I’m saying I was– like, like two really big memories that stick out related to television. Um, I mean, even when we– you know I had, like, a black and white– we had, like, a black and white– little black and white TV. You know, I mean, we didn’t even have a color TV ‘til we were older, so it’s, like, very, very different. Anyway, I have two memories: one was, um, I guess I was, like, about five, when– I gotta go, my memory of dates is not so great– maybe four or five, I think I was in kindergarten, like a half-day kindergarten and I remember coming home, and, like, my parents and their friends were sitting around the table crying, because the– and– because it was when JFK got shot. And I remember being annoyed because when I used to come home, I used to get lunch, and then I was allowed to watch, like, cartoons for an hour. And I remember, like, looking at the TV and just seeing this other stuff– it probably was his funeral. Um, and, uh, just like, you know, “This is annoying. I can’t watch cartoons.” And then also noticing that my parents were really upset. And then the other memory I have, which is probably a couple years later, but you’ll have to check whenever the Beatles were on the Ed Sullivan show– and, have you ever seen that?
Yeah, I’ve seen it.
The Beatles being on the Ed Sullivan show? Like, they show it all the time, and I remember that because my parents– my family used to watch the Ed Sullivan show. And I remember my mother was standing in the room and she was ironing, and we were watching it, and she was like, “Oh my goodness, what is this? Look at these young men with this long hair, and what is this music?” [laughter] I remember her being very disapproving of that. And I look back on it now and I laugh. Oh, and then also, of course, I remember when we all stayed up late, and probably all fell asleep to watch the, um, the moon landing in 1968. So there were, like, a lot of cool– yeah, go ahead.
00:17:19
Yeah, no, a lot of big televised events–
These were, like, things that we just, you know, I j– I had the memory of us– I guess it happened pretty late at night, so we all were allowed to, like, put our pajamas on and, like, lay on the floor of the TV room with our pillows and I– maybe I stayed up for it, maybe I didn’t, maybe they woke me up, I don’t remember, but you know– so those were kinda some exciting things that were happening in the ‘60s. Things were changing a lot. So I have those memories, um, kind of more remotely than directly. You know, really kind of just watching it on television. You know, it wasn’t really changing my life. So–
Yeah. Do you remember what you were, like, what your impression of, like, the moon landing was? Like, do you remember what you were feeling?
Oh, my gosh, my brother totally loved space, so he wanted to be an astronaut, so it was really exciting, and– Oh, it was, like, you couldn’t believe it. My parents– I mean, they were just like– you couldn’t believe it. It was, like, it was, um, it wasn’t real, you know?
Right.
So, it was really exciting.
And so when you were in high school, it was, like, the ‘70s already, right?
Yeah, I graduated from high school in 1977. So, that was sort of just, like, you know, a lot of things changing then, things getting a little bit more loosened up in the world. Um, personally didn’t– again, you know, high school is a change anyway, right? So, you know. It was sort of folded into all that.
00:19:01
Yeah. Um, when you were in high school, like what– how did you, like, spend your time, like outside of school? Were you mostly at home or, like, with friends, or, like, what were your memories like of what you were doing?
Yeah, I had some– I had a few friends. I had a few friends in high school that I would hang out with when I was a jun– sophomore? Um, or a junior. Can’t remember. Um, I guess a junior, maybe a junior. Um, I tried out for the school play, which was Fiddler on the Roof. So I was like, in the chorus. And then in my senior year, they did Peter Pan and I was Wendy. So, you know, big exciting there. And that was really fun because I got to fly– and, uh, anyway, so that was where I had some theatre friends, we hung out together, and– but basically, you know, I had to get up at 6 o’clock in the morning, to get the school bus at 7 o’clock in the morning, so I had to walk about a mile to get the school bus. I know, like that whole, like “I had to walk a mile,” right? So I had to walk to the school bus– to get on the school bus at 7 o’clock, because I didn’t live– well, just the way it was back then, like, if I lived about a twenty minutes, thirty minutes from the high school, so the bus just went all around to pick up people everywhere. Because they had to pick you up early, because the bus was for the public school. So they had to get you there before they did the public school route. So, school started at like eight o’clock in the morning. So I had to get to the bus by like 7:10, and then drive for like 45 minutes to get there, and then school was out, like, at 2:15, so by the time I got home, it was like 3 o’clock, 3:30. You do your homework, you eat dinner, you go to bed. Right? There’s not a lot, a lot of time to do other things. I know I hated that. I hated walking to the school bus, especially in the winter.
Yeah. Did you have, like, a lot of responsibilities at home, as, like, the oldest sibling?
Yeah, I guess so. My mom and dad were pretty good about, you know, making us do chores and things like that, so I learned that, and, um, you know, I mean, sometimes I think back and I’m like, “How come you didn’t drive me to the school bus in the winter?” [laughter] But you know, I was, like– I know, I’m like, “Hey, how come you never drove us to school?” You know, now I see, like, people drive their kids everywhere, and I’m like– what, you never, like, drove us to the– the only time would be like if we got up late and I missed the bus and she would have to drive us to school, which she was not happy about. Because– yeah, I’m gonna have, like, um– so, when I was fourteen, starting high school, that means I had, um, you know, my sister, my brother were in grammar school, so they had to go, and my other siblings would still be in grammar school, so she had to do, like, two different school schedules and get people to different places, so, that would really disrupt the morning, but– and sometimes when it was really bad she would drive us, like, if it was snowing or something, she would, like, drive us to the school bus. But, for the most part, she had, like, other people– and I guess also they were sort of like, “It’s your responsibility, you know? You gotta get there.” So, um, we did that, but I was like, “Man, now I see, like, everybody’s getting, like, on the street everybody’s getting, like, I see my neighbors, they drive their kids–” Like, they’re like right down the block and they drive ‘em to school, and I’m like, “Wow I wish” [laughter] “I wish I could’ve done that.”
Yeah.
00:22:37
Do you remember, like, what– like, what kind of conversations your parents had, like, at dinner? Like what did they like to, like, talk about?
Um, I think they talked about– they weren't really particularly political, or if they were, they didn't talk to us about it. Um, they, um, you know, when I was in high school, my father, he started his own business, he started– it was somewhere, it was about, uh, it was like, out in Freehold. So, it was a long commute for him. So, over the course of– I would say by the time I was, like, a junior or senior, my– things started to not go well with my parents. So by the time I was a freshman in college, my father actually left. So, um, which is a weird story ‘cause he left for about seven years and then he came home. But, um, so they got divorced, and then they got married again. So, anyway, um, but that’s like– you don’t need to hear all that. So, I guess there was a lot– In the early years of high school, there was a lot of tension, because I think that my father wanted to move, and my mom didn’t. And, you know, he was trying to start this new business, and she didn't want to go, and she was like, “Oh, the kids are all in their schools, and I don’t want to do that,” so, he sort of like, commuted, like, on the weekends for a while, and then– you know, and then he just stopped and did things– just stopped. I mean, I’m sure that there were problems that– there were– well, I’m not sure. There were definitely problems that we saw probably earlier, when we looked back on it, but that was sort of the end of it, so– So I don’t think that there’s– I mean, when we were little, they took us on vacations, and, you know, we had, like, the Times, and my dad got us– oh he got us– like, we’d put a pool in the backyard, an inground pool, so I would swim a lot, um, you know, so that was all fun. But I don’t remember, you know, them talking about anything more than just normal, like, taking care of things and chores and stuff that had to be done, so.
Yeah. What, um– where would they take you guys on vacation when you were little?
00:24:52
Oh we went, um, we mostly I guess stayed on the East Coast. Because– any place, you had to drive. And my mom was a history buff, so we went and visited a lot of, like, American history things, which we kinda liked, and maybe we didn’t always like. So, we drove up and down. And my father, when he was a salesman in New York, he had to go kind of, like, on business trips, so we would drive, like, to North Carolina ‘cause he had to go somewhere, and then we’d– they would take us around to see other things in the area. But we would go to the beach or we’d go to the mountains. There were some vacations that we had up, like, in the Finger Lakes or North Jersey. I remember that we used to go for a few years to a cabin, and there’s– up in North Jersey– called Stokes Forest. And there were these cabins, and they had no hot running water, and the bathroom was, like, literally like an outhouse that was attached to the back of the cabin, which really smelled terrible and we hated going in there. We loved the lake and we loved being in the cabin, but I have to say, I look back on that, and I go, for my mother, who had to like, boil the water before she had to wash the dishes and everything, and I was like, “What kind of a vacation is that?” You know? [laughter] I mean, I guess it was like, I guess they didn't have the money, so they wanted to do something– but, ‘cause we spent all day, like, in the lake you know. My mother had to, like, you know, boil water, and the bathroom smelled really badly, and I’m like, “Did you really enjoy that? ‘Cause that sounds like a messed up vacation.” But, anyway, so, they did that, um, so, yeah. You know, those were the kinds of things we did.
00:26:30
Yeah. Do you know, like, what your ancestry is? Like, where your parents or did their parents–
You know, it’s kinda funny, because I actually do know. Well, my dad is, um– I’ll show you a picture of my dad when we talk about the garden stuff– I’ll show you, this is my dad, when he was about ten years old, okay?
Oh, wow!
And we see what he’s got– I don’t know if you can see what he has in his hand.
Is it like, a–
He’s got, like, a farm trowel or–
Right.
I do not know what that is. It’s some kind of gardening tool.
Mhm.
Oh! You know what it is? It’s, like, grass clippers.
Oh yeah!
It’s, like, grass clippers. So this is probably around– yeah, I know, isn’t he cute? This is, like, my favorite picture of him. Anyway, that’s probably around 1945, and we– we do not know where in the world my father could’ve been, because– okay, he grew up in Jersey City, right? Actually, I mean, do you know Jersey City at all?
Not very well, no.
Have you ever been to Jersey City? Alright. So, well there’s like the Holland Tunnel that goes into the city from Jersey City. So, there’s a little neighborhood that’s literally right by the entrance of the Holland Tunnel, downtown, which is now historic downtown. He grew up in– he had– there were six children, and he was the youngest– five brothers and a sister. Um, or, he had– Ernie, Michael, Lenny, Vinnie. So four brothers and a sister. Actually, the sister was younger, but he was the youngest boy. And he’s a second generation immigrant, his father came from Poland. And they grew up in a– an apartment there, right by the Holland Tunnel, which was a poor Polish neighborhood. And literally, again, no hot running water when he was a kid, and now those buildings have been turned into, like, million dollar condominiums, and it’s like every time we’re like, “Dad! Oh man, you should never have sold that!”
Yeah.
Of course, you know. I mean, he couldn’t wait to get away. You know, um, so then his father was, like I said [from] Poland, and came over– after World War I, probably around 1915, 1916. He was about seventeen or eighteen years old, and his parents saved up the money to send him over, so that he would not be conscripted into the Russian army.
Yeah.
00:29:04
So you know, that's, you know, a typical immigrant story. So, he didn’t have anything and he came over here, and he worked for a butcher. And that’s what he did all of his life. He became a citizen, he barely spoke English, and I didn't really know him, because he died in 1960 and I was only a year old. I have, like, a photo of him, like– I have a photo of me in his lap on my first birthday, but he died shortly after that of a heart attack, so he was about sixty-five years old. So, you know, that’s it. So that’s– that’s my father’s side. Um–
Do you know if he ever–
I don’t know too much about my grandm–
Do you know if he ever, like, went back to Poland, like, during his life?
Uh, no, he didn’t, no. He did not. No, he never went back. I don’t know if any of his relatives ever came over or if he ever– like, you know, how he ever communicated with them, but he never went back.
And he– I feel like he probably–
And I don’t know what–
I’m sorry. Go, go.
No, go ahead.
No I’m just saying that that was uh, like, I don’t know– that the twentieth century was a very intense time in Poland, so– I guess he– he left at a time– at a good time.
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And they knew that, you know, he might have to go into the Russian army, so they basically snuck him out before that, you know. So I don’t know, did he write letters to them or anything? There’s not really a lot known on that side, you know, I’ve done some research, geneao– I always– my family always said he worked for Oscar Meyer, um, but I found actually recently my daughter had a link for an Ancestry thing and I actually found out he worked for a different butcher, and, um, I can’t remember the name right now, but it’s still there. It was in Weehawken or something? Anyway, he lived in Jersey City. Um, so, my grandmother on my father’s side died when I was about five, so I didn’t really know her either. So that side I didn’t know. Now my mother’s side, um, her– father, uh, they go back to about the 1850’s as immigrants from Germany. And my mom has a whole bunch of different, like, German, Irish, Spanish– like, a million different things. Mostly she was German– she was half German, so her father was German and his, like, great-great grandfather came from, uh, Germany and lived in New York City, down by the, um– he was a brewer, a beer brewer, so he lived like down by like sort of Hudson Yards. There was a brewery around there. Or he lived there and he worked in one of the other breweries, so that’s all I know about him. And then, my great grandfather moved to New Jersey, to, um, like, Weehawken when he got older, and then that’s how my mom was born up there and all that, you know, whatever.
00:32:10
So, ‘cause there was, like, a German immigrant community up there, in Weehawken at that area. Um, that’s that side. Now on my mother’s mother’s– maternal side, it’s kind of interesting– because she had a great grandmother through her grandfather, who, um, her name was Lee. Gertrude Lee. L-E-E. And actually my grandmother’s name was also Gertrude, named after her. So, we grew up– my mother always said that we were related to Robert E. Lee, you know, the Confederate general? And we were like, “okay!” So, we’d tell people that, and we were always embarrassed, because, you know, he was kinda interesting historically, but, at least when I was little, we would– people would make fun of us in school, because they were like, “Oh, you’re like a Confederate,” and everything, and now I’m like, well, now, I don’t know, you have people that would probably think that was cool. Um, anyway. But it turned out a couple years ago, I went and did some research, and um, I found out that that actually was not true. And then my mother was like “oh yeah” because, you know, she said “I asked somebody and there was never anybody named Gertrude in Robert E. Lee’s family,” so I was like Alright, whatever.” So, what happened was, um, I found out that– so my great-great-great-great-great, four generations back– or, five generations back– grandfather, was named Luther Lee. And he was a minister, and he was a minister in Syracuse, New York. And he– he was an abolitionist, and he actually wrote an autobiography and he’s also wrote a few books on theology. So he was a Wesleyan Methodist minister. And, um, if you know anything about the Methodist church, and I only know very little, but the AME church, which supported slavery back in the mid-1800s, and then– so there was a group of ministers who broke off, and started the Wesleyan Methodist church because they were abolitionists, and he was one of those people that did that. So he had a church in Syracuse, New York, which is still there. I went and visited it a couple years ago. It's now a really cool looking Mexican restaurant, but it’s there. Um, and he actually wrote an autobiography, which I found online, and then in the first chapter, he talked about, like, his ancestors, so we found out that, um, they go back to England, and, um, one of his ancestors fought in the American Revolution on the side of the patriots, and one of his ancestors fought in the American Revolution on the side of the British.
Wow.
And so, yeah. So, but he is really cool, because he actually– I don’t know, have you ever heard of John Brown?
Yeah.
Yeah, so he actually defended John Brown, when– after John Brown, you know, he was like, a big abolitionist, you know, and, you know, then he had his demise at Harper’s Ferry, where, you know, they got him and then they killed him, they hanged him. Um, he actually defended John Brown from being kicked out of the Church, which was unsuccessful, but he did that. And, according to his autobiography, and he also was up in Syracuse, you know, Rochester area, he actually was kind of itinerant in some ways, so he was out in Detroit, came back, went around and had different churches and different preaching responsibilities, but he also actually knew people like Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, ‘cause he was also involved in the suffragette movement.
Wow.
Yeah, so I really liked a lot better that that was my ancestor [laughter].
Better than Robert E. Lee. [laughter]
Yeah, I– really, I was like, “this is even better!”
00:36:07
But, so we found that out only like two or three years ago. So we went up to Canada and we stopped and we saw– found the church, and they have a little museum up there, had a picture of him.
Wow.
Yeah. And they talked about his, you know, his ministry up there, and also in the basement of the church– ’cause he was part of the Underground Railroad. So he would hide slaves on their way to Canada there. And, in the basement of the church, they found carvings in the mud walls of the church of people’s faces, and they don’t know– I mean they’re assuming the slaves– the fugitive slaves were the ones that did the carvings, but they don’t know if they were faces of other slaves, or if maybe they were– some speculation it might have been one of the faces of his wife, um, so, they took– when they closed the church, they cut the wall out and put the carvings in the museum, so they’re–
Is the museum, like, is it about him, or is it about, like, the–
It’s the Onon– It’s Onondaga– Onondaga Historical Society in Syracuse, so it’s, like, about the county, and so he’s part of the exhibit there. Yeah. So that was pretty cool. So we saw the carvings of the faces and, um, we went to the restaurant, and saw, you know, the guy took a picture of us in there, so it was fun. So that’s my ancestors on my mother’s side. There’s also, like, some Dutch, on that side, like Dutch settlers in upstate New York who fought in the Revolution, came over in like the nine–1690s or something, but I haven’t done too much with that, so– that’s what I know!
How did, um, your mom become Catholic, like, along the way?
My mom actually converted, because my grandfather was Lutheran, and my mother– my grandmother was Cath– Ir– was Catholic, so, um, so my great-grandmother was– was, like, her– my great-great grandparents came from Ireland, so I think that’s when the Catholicism came in.
Right.
And, um, because before, obviously the people would’ve been Methodist, or some form of Protestantism. And, uh, but my mom’s mom’s mom was her mom, they came from Ireland, so they were Catholic. So the Catholic came down through the maternal side, and even though on my grandfather’s side, they were Lutherans, ‘cause they’re from Germany, they um– she converted when she was, like, thirteen. And my dad’s side was Catholic, because uh, you know Poles tended to be Catholic. So, yeah.
How did they meet, your parents?
Um, they met at a Halloween dance in college.
Okay [laughter]
Yeah.
00:39:11
Um, and so–
Yeah, my mom was dressed up as a flapper. My mom was– had a flapper costume, I have a picture of her, it was like, actually belonged to her aunt, uh, in the 1920s. So you know one of those little dresses with all the little fringey [unintelligible] and everything? So she wore that costume, so I guess it was appealing. [laughter]
Authentic flapper costume. Yeah, um, so you went to college in Rutgers, right, at Rutgers?
Yes. I went to college at Rutgers from 1977 to 1981, I graduated with a degree in Psychology, then I went into graduate school for another year or so for my master’s degree in Special Education, because when I was a senior, I did a little fieldwork course working with children with autism, and I really liked it, so I went back– I got a job as a teacher and then I, uh, got my Master’s degree, and I did that for about three or four years until I met my husband and– then, you know, then we had kids, and I work sort of part time as a consultant for awhile.
Okay. What– so what made you want to go into psychology?
Um, I don’t know. I liked it in high school. You know, I got this helper personality, so.
Yeah, and then so you were– you did a project with, um, children with autism through coll– like through Rutgers, or?
Yeah, they have a school there at the Douglass College. The Douglass Developmental Disabilities Center. So I went over and took a– you know, somebody’s like “Oh here’s, like, three credits you go over one day a week and you work with the kids and then wow, Friday morning, three credits, easy A.” So I did it. And then I was like “Oh my gosh, I [love?] this,” so, you never know, right?
Was it, like, at a public school, or where– where were you? Where was it?
No, it actually was a research school that was sponsored by the graduate school of Applied and Professional Psychology at Rutgers, so they did research and things there. So I did that–
Go ahead.
No, go ahead.
What did you like about that job? What appealed to you?
00:41:39
I don’t know. I just really liked it. Maybe it was the challenge in some ways. The little boy that I worked with was nonverbal, and he bit me twice, and I still liked it. So, I don’t know. You know, it was, I don’t know. I kind of really liked it. I don’t know, I can’t say. Maybe ‘cause I came– my mom was a teacher, so, it was sort of like in the family history or something, or the genes, but yeah, I did, I liked doing it. And then after, right before my third chil– my daughter was born, I, um, uh, went back and taught there for two years as part of a research project, so that was kind of fun.
Yeah. What was the– what was the research project?
Um, well they were doing a study– because it was the part of the Graduate School of Psyc– of Applied and Professional Psychology, um, it was like a two year research project that was being done by the director on an early intervention procedures, like intensive early intervention, so– you know, they wrote a paper on it afterwards and on the model they were doing. So, I implemented that with the staff.
Okay. Did you also– so as– in graduate school did you also do your own research project, like as a thesis, or?
You know, you know, the Graduate School of Education did not require that.
Okay.
I didn’t have to do a thesis or– you just had to do the credits. So I did it, you know. They didn’t re– yeah. I don’t know what they do now, but back then that particular program, I didn’t need to do that.
Right. Um, and so, like, when you graduated, you worked at that school for two years, right?
I actually worked at the Eden Institute, which is in Princeton, New Jersey. That was way closer to where I lived, and so after I left college I did that, and then I worked there while I was getting my graduate degree, and then I met my husband in 1984, and– then I had my son in 1985, so I stopped working when he was born, and I didn’t really work full-time again until I went back in 199– 1989? 1990? Um, so like, five or six years, and then I went back for this two year intensive thing, and then my daughter was born in 1992, so I stopped again, and then I just did, like, in-home consultations for families with children with autism, and, um, I did that up until 2000. And then I worked for the Catholic church.
00:44:32
Okay. What– what did, um, doing in-home consultations, like, imply? What did you do?
Well, it was usually with todd– with young children, up until the age of, like, eight. So what we did was– do like home plans, home intervention plans, so we helped parents. It could be anything from, like, reduction of inappropriate behavior to toilet training to, you know, just helping parents, like sort of carry over whatever was going on at home– I mean in school, to the home.
Right. Did you like that type of work?
Yeah, I did, yeah.
And then, so then you started working for the Catholic church, um, like, is that when you got involved with Unity Square?
Well, I got– No, I worked in my parish at St. Paul’s in Princeton, New Jersey, um, we moved to Princeton from South Brunswick in 1998, and, um, or 1999. And, you know, my kids were not in Catholic school, so they were, like, in their religious ed program, and, um, like, the director quit, and, you know, they were looking for somebody, and I was like “Oh, I’ll do it.”
Okay.
You know? Whatever. So I did that, and then I became an assis– the assistant or whatever they call it, Pastoral Associate to the Pastor, and I did that for about ten ye– eight years. And that was– that was– I really loved that. Um, I did pretty much the things a priest would do, um, except for administer sacraments. Uh, you know, funeral planning, some counseling, um, developed– like, even, like, even though I didn’t, like, do the liturgies, I helped plan them, coordinated them, um, yeah. I really loved that job a lot, but, because I was a woman, obviously, that had a dead end to it, so after about eight years I was offered a job at the Di– Diocesan level, so I worked for the Diocese of Trenton in the religious education program, like the director of– Associate Director of Religious Education, so overseeing all the parishes in the Diocese and their religious education programs. I did that for three years, and then in 2011, I went to the Diocese of Metuchen to work in the Office of Layministry, which basically was, like, supposed to be a formation program for all the people that were doing things that I had done at the parish level. And that, I did that for about oh, let me see. Eleven, so about seven years? Until, um, 2018, um, they asked me to come over and manage– and be the administrator of Unity Square.
00:47:34
So, about November 2018 I moved over. And, you know, it just sort of– they– they wanted me to be the administrator. I had gone to an outreach program down in McAllen, Texas for immigrants, like, I worked at a respite center for a week, which, I did not think was sufficient experience for me to do that, but– and also, as I said to them, I don’t speak Spanish, so that’s gonna be a big drawback working in this community, but they, like, really said “well, we think, you know, you’ll have staff that speaks Spanish, so you’ll probably be okay, so why don’t you try it?” So, I’ve been there for almost two-and-a-half years, almost. And it’s been okay. I mean, it’s been good, I mean, it’s– it is an issue that I can’t speak Spanish. I mean, I don’t– I personally– I mean I can do my job, but can’t really talk to the people very well, so that I don’t like. But, that’s what it is.
You feel like maybe it’s harder to establish, like, a direct link with the people you’re working with?
Of course. Of course. And I mean at my age now, I mean, I studied French in school, I know some basic Spanish, but I’m not gonna get to a place where I’m gonna be so fluent in Spanish that I’m going to be able to talk to people, um, you know, yeah. It’s not gonna happen. I mean I can have basic, like, “come back tomorrow,” or “what do you need,” or, you know, “you have to go here,” so I manage with people, but mostly when it comes time for them to really talk about their stories and stuff, they talk to the staff. Which is great, they tell me what’s going on, but it’s more remote. So, I think that’s a big drawback.
00:49:12
Mhm, right. And in your previous positions, you feel like, was that like the more, like, rewarding aspect was being able to connect with people, do you feel?
Of course.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I also got, like, some credentials to be a spiritual director, so, where I, you know, people are talking very deeply about their spiritual life, so, clearly, that's preferable.
Right. What– So, is that kind of, almost like giving, like, a form of, like, counseling to people?
You know, it’s really kind of a listening ministry. It’s really kind of a listening ministry and guided listening. So what you learn in the world is that people don’t listen very well, and, um– I mean you’re listening pretty well. But, you know, people don’t listen really well. Like conversations are usually, you know, “Okay, let me tell you about me, okay, then you tell me about you, then I tell you about me,” you know, “then you tell me,” it’s spiritual directors, like, don’t talk so much.
Right.
You know? And I try to find where people come with their faith struggles, like, where they can find ways to deepen them. But, really, ultimately that’s their relationship with God, or the divine, or however they’re defining that. So, it’s for me to just sort of listen and notice, “Well, you just said that, so what do you think that means for you?” kind of stuff. Um, and, uh, sometimes I think it seems obvious, but apparently it’s not that obvious that people need to do that, so–
00:50:50
Who– who are you speaking to? Just like anybody who wanted, uh, spiritual guidance, or just people who are working in the church?
Well, people who– you know, when I was working at the parish, people would come in and talk for counseling all the time, although they always would be like, you know, “Hi, I want to talk to Father,” um, and it would be like, “Okay, but, you know what, but I’m a better listener than Father is,” but anyway– [laughter] So, that was always a problem, but nonetheless, we managed. Um, so people would just come in, you know, and talk. And then, sometimes people would actually call us up and ask for us for spir– you know, call me up, like, you know, say “I want spiritual direction.” Um, and it’s like, not everyone– people don’t really understand totally what it is, so, you know, people would be coming in, like, wanting counseling ‘cause– I mean I’ve had things like people, like, “I don’t know whether I should sue this person or not” and I would be like, “that’s not spiritual direction, that’s a lawyer.”
Legal [laughter] yeah.
You will have to– yeah. “You’ll have to pay them way more than you would ever wanna pay me, so, sorry, I’m not giving free legal advice.” Um, so, but, you know, I also find that just in– generally, when you start to learn how to listen better, and listen differently, it’s a skill that you can use anywhere.
Right. Do you feel like listening to people about, like, their relationship with faith, like, how did that affect your relationship with your faith?
Um, you know, well of course it always, you know, those conversations deepen my faith, but I also think in many ways it broadened my faith. Because sometimes I see people really struggling with a great deal of pain, because of these sort of very narrow conceptions they have about who God is, and what God wants, and what God doesn't like, and, you know, and they’re struggling because, “God must hate me because I’m angry at him,” or, you know, and you just sort of see how much pain somebody’s in, uh, you know, you know, God’s been around for really really long and going to be around for really really long, and your personal anger is not going to destroy God. You know, so it’s okay. Uh, and God can handle it, and God, if you believe, is about love, well, then you can say love can handle that. Just as a person that really loves you would allow you to be angry at them. But I do see a lot of people who maybe struggle with even, like, neuroses and stuff, because they just get so, like, you know “Well, this is what– this is the right thing, this is the wrong thing.” And I don’t think that God really speaks that language as much as people think He does, or She does, or It does.
00:53:49
Right, right. Do you feel like having children and having a family, like, also– like, how did that change your relationship to– to faith, or how did your experience come?
Oh, uh, it changes it a lot, you know. I have– two of my children have autoimmune diseases and I struggled with that, and my son has Type 1 Diabetes and my youngest daughter has– was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis when she was fourteen, so, you know, again, you gotta like, you gotta be getting in touch with that, you know. You’ll have people go like, “Oh, God’s punishing me for something I did wrong,” and, you know, you start to look at it– you have to. But you could continue to look at it that way and then you would have a very, very miserable life. Um, or you could just sort of look at the fact that God is present to all of the sufferings and mysteries of human life, good or bad. And that’s not about God doing things to you or not doing things to you. Helping you win the lottery, you know.
Yeah. Like things just happen. Yeah.
Yeah, life just happens. But where is God’s presence in that? You know?
Right.
That’s why when you see in the news now, all these really super evangelical things, about, you know, “This is what God wants me to do, like to shoot people, or to, like, break into buildings and hurt people,” and it’s like yeeeeah, no. No.
And so, at Unity Square, do you like– what are your, like, overall, like, responsibilities, like what– what– yeah, what are, like, the roles that you–
So for me, again, because of the language barrier, unfortunately my– most of my focus comes to, um, the administrative part. So a lot of just really, like, bureaucratic, kind of like, you know, grants and reports and keeping the place running, and, you know, the door broke and the gate broke and the, you know, how to get food, and I do all that stuff and I love it, it’s great, it’s fine, um, that’s basically what I do. And then I have two staff people, well, most of the time, now I have one. You know, the people that come in are young, young people who are starting out, so it’s a good experience, I think for them, and then they move onto other things. So, since I’ve been there in two and a half years, there’ve been one, two, three, four, five people, so, you know, and we’re now looking to hire a sixth person, the sixth person, ‘cause Hector left, and, um, you know, it’s sort of like a training ground in some way, so I hope in that sense that that’s a chance for me to impart some of my experience and wisdom to those people, as they go off. You know?
Yeah.
So, um, that’s, that’s where the interaction is.
00:56:56
Right, with, like, the people you work with. Do you– so when– are– do you feel like there’s been changes,like, in Unity Square since you’ve been there? Like when– how did you find it, like, when you started working there, like what was Unity Square already doing?
Well, the housing resource center, which is tenant counseling for the mostly renting people who are not always treated very well because of their status and because of their– because of their resources have to enter into less-than-desirable housing agreements.
Right.
That’s a big thing. Um, we do comm– we did– we do community programs like family parties, since we have a lot of young families, so gatherings and things like that, and they were very successful, but of course, we haven’t done them for a year.
Right.
And, so, um, las– and then things just come up. You know, people come in and they go, “I wanna do this program,” and we go “Okay, do we think this fits the mission of serving the people that are here?” If so, then yeah. If not, poss– um, no. But we’ve done everything from tax counseling to– Mary Kay came in and did free makeovers for awhile, you know, and that, like, you could say, “Well that’s frivolous,” or something, but, the ladies that came in liked it [laughter]. So– they looked pretty good when they left! Um, so, you know, all that stuff, and, um, so it could be any of those things, but now I think since COVID happened, it’s really been about the health of the people, and then we started to do the food distribution last spring, and I hope we can expand that. We’ve had COVID testing there, which will be ending in March, I just spoke with the local hospital about being a vaccine site, um, they were a little concerned about maybe the room wasn’t big enough, but they said maybe when the weather gets better, we can open the doors and maybe we’ll have more space, we can do it. ‘Cause we just did, like, the hundred and twenty people came for food yesterday, and, we just, like, sort of just said, let’s just ask, really quickly, and like, do like a little hashtag. “Did you get your vaccine yet? Did you get your vaccine yet?” So a hundred and twenty people came, and four people got their vaccine.
Wow.
And one of the people that got it, was a homeless person who got it at the shelter. So that was good, but you could see that that was sort of an intentional thing that the shelter got the shots.
Right.
So three people out of a hundred and nineteen people got vaccines and I’ve got people calling me up, who are elderly and they’re like, “I can’t get into the site,” and it’s like really– I really hope we can do that, take care of that in the next few months.
Yeah.
So that’s what we’re focusing on now.
I feel like it’s unnecessarily complicated, like, getting the vaccine for people who are eligible.
Yup. It’s totally complicated. I mean, I don’t know if you got one yet or if you’ve been trying to negotiate, but like, the CVS websi– the CVS, uh, pharmacy site? Which– we have been trying to negotiate for about two weeks now. I mean, it’s crazy that you’ve gotta get up at five o’clock in the morning, and then you go on there for like an hour, and by the time you get your spot all the shots are gone, and even though my staff and I are sort of in group 1B, because of the homelessness and our exposure, the state hasn’t called us about that. Um, you know, my husband got his shot because he’s got, like, medical conditions, but it took us, like, a long time, and he has to drive, like, an hour away for it. Um, you know, yesterday we got a call, my boss called and said “There’s one shot left at the shelter, so go down and get it.” So I sent my assistant down to get it. But, um, you know, it’s really hard. It’s hard to– and so the people are calling, like, this eighty-five year old woman called me this week and her eighty-seven year old sister and she’s like, “Every time I go on that CVS site, it says it’s booked, it’s booked it’s booked.” And I’m like, “you gotta get up at like five o’clock in the morning and start, like, hitting the button.” I mean, my mother couldn’t do it. We finally had to do it for her, you know. So, it’s really– it really, it’s not good.
01:01:18
Um, do you think it’s a possibility that you guys could become, like, a vaccination center, like do you see that?
Oh, I hope so.
Yeah.
I hope so. Yeah, cause Saint– the hospital called and said “We want to give out a hundred and fifty shots in the next three weeks. Are you interested?” I said “Oh yes, we are.” And they were like, “well, we’re not sure if your space is big enough, but we’ll get back to you,” so I hope they do. Um, but literally you could just bring– since last year, we have given food to about twelve hundred unique [unintelligible] households. So, I’m like just bring the shots over and pick up your food, get your shot, right now.
Yeah.
You know, the weather’s getting warmer, and more people are coming out, just do it.
Yeah. Do you think that, like, is access to, like, food a big issue in the community that you work with?
Yes. Yes.
What do you think that the causes of that are?
Well, it just comes from– well, the two communities we serve are obviously the undocumented, undocumented Spanish-speaking population, and then we have a smaller population of the African Americans who have lived in that neighborhood historically, and most of them have moved out, so the ones who have stayed– not all of them, but, like, 90% of them stayed because they’re distressed and they can’t get out.
Right.
For whatever reason. Um, not too many have decided they’re just “I want to stay here,” you know? Most of them, if they could go, they went. Um, so we have people with mental health issues, you’ve got the homeless, you’ve got the undocumented who don’t get any access to any funding, so they have no money, and they don’t have jobs, so they’re not being able to afford food and rent and clothing. Basically, that’s it.
01:03:27
Yeah. Is– has– is unemployment like a problem recently or is it– has it– has there always been like a higher rate of, like, unemployment?
No, it’s always– well, since I’ve been there, but I think typically in that neighborhood. I would say even the last ten, maybe ten years, fifteen years, when the very highly– high influx of people from Oaxaca, Mexico came into that particular little part of New Brunswick, that’s just been the case.
Right, right.
I mean, it’s just– just the way it is. I mean, we do have someone who comes out and does DACA cases for us once a week from Catholic Charities, but that, of course, are the DACA recipients. Those are the young kids that are, you know, that’s a whole dif– that’s great. And of course we know all the hurdles that they’ve faced in the last few years, but that’s completely different from their parents. Their grandmother.
Is– is it hard to find jobs because of their status? Or is there just like a high unemployment rate in New Brunswick in general?
Um, it’s because of their status mostly. But because there’s so many now, I guess you could say it makes the unemployment rise in New Brunswick. Um, and of course, you know, they do get, like, the day laborer jobs, you know, like working the Amazon warehouses and things like that, but you know, that comes and goes and has no protection for them.
Right, it’s like a lot of precarity.
Yep.
And I’m sure, like, I feel like COVID has probably just, like, exacerbated, like, all of the issues. Yeah.
Yep, and then the moratorium for evictions has been extended now to June but, you know, that’s just gonna be a mess. Because, first of all, they’ll still owe all the rent that they won’t be able to pay. And yeah. The landlords are not gonna– you have to have a certain level of sympathy for the landlords, who have mortgages on the homes that they have to pay, and not for all of them, because we have a– quite a few, like, very wealthy slumlords that operate in New Brunswick, so, um, they have a right to their payments, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not like it’s hurting them that much, maybe a little bit, but not as much as it’s hurting the tenants. Um, you know, we have some landlords that own maybe fifty, sixty houses in New Brunswick, so I’m sure if they’re not getting their rent, that’s a sizable sum of money, but it’s not like they’re gonna go bankrupt anytime soon. There probably are some landlords who might.
Yeah.
01:06:09
And so that, of course, becomes another issue, because you can’t just say “Well, this person can’t pay you the $1500 a month for the last...you know, $20,000 or whatever they owe you for the last year, so why don’t you just forgive that?” Some of them might be able to do a little bit of that, but most probably can’t.
Right.
So then you’ve got both sides of the problem.
When you, like, help people with, like, housing resources, like, is that one of the big things that you help people, like, negotiate with landlords?
Yeah. Well, right now it’s kind of frozen, so what we do is just educate people, because they come in and say their landlord’s evicting them, and we help them investigate that. Um, because sometimes the landlord– it could be for a really low legitimate reason, um, like maybe their lease is up and the landlord’s just like, “Okay, that’s it, you’re done,” or it could be, like, fabricated reason that the landlord wants to get rid of them, because maybe they've got somebody who could pay rent, so they kick you out.
Right.
You know, so we– we negotiate. There are some where they just don’t know that they’re allowed to stay, and then, honestly, you know what’s happening in some cases? So the people are just like, “okay, I cannot pay this rent. It’s only gonna get worse. So I’m out. I’m moving into the house down the street with my friends.” And now, even though that house, according to the city, should only have eight people in it, now it’s got sixteen people in it.
Is that, like, a very common situation, like a lot of people living in, like, one–
It happens. I don’t know if I would say it’s common, I have no data on that because you’re not gonna be told that, but we have seen that. And so now it’s gonna be like, now I’m subleasing from this person, which may or may not be allowed, um, some leases allow people to do that, and some don’t. And this would happen before COVID anyway. So now you’ve got fifteen people in a house and they’re all giving each other COVID. And they’re living, like a family of four is, like, living in a bedroom, and like, sharing the kitchen or the bathroom, so it’s not– it’s just gonna be– it’s gonna be what it was, but like, on steroids, so.
Has COVID like–
We shall see.
People getting sick? Like, have a lot of people gotten sick in this community?
Oh, yeah.
01:09:00
I don’t know what the exact numbers are, I only look at the Middlesex County numbers, but I know New Brunswick was a hotspot, and I know that when we first started giving PPE out last April, I mean we shut the Center down to group meetings in the end of March, about a year ago. But I was still going into the office every couple of days just to, you know, che– work, and check on the building, and see, and when I would just drive up and down the street, nobody had a mask on. They didn’t have masks. So we started giving out masks after that, and now it’s pretty good, but the hospital called us and said “Can we work with you to give masks out to people? Because there’s a large percentage of people coming into the emergency room that are coming from the Unity Square neighborhood.”
Mmm.
So, you know, and that wasn’t surprising when nobody understood COVID and you couldn’t find masks and blah blah blah. So, you know, and we still, when people come up for food, we make them wear a mask, we give them a mask, there’s still people who come up without masks, but mostly people do.
Right, yeah. And people who do work in the community, what is– where do they work, what is the typical, like job?
You mean like partner organizations?
No, like, just, like, the constituents, like.
Oh, oh.
Where are they, like, usually employed and what type of work do they do?
Landscaping, the men will be in landscaping, maybe restaurants, like dishwashing, um, working like temp jobs, things that they can walk to, like cleaning, or maybe sometimes people will babysit for other people’s kids, um, driving if they have a driver's license, because of course we still haven’t sorted that out in New Jersey yet, but if you– if you’re not– if you don’t have legal status, you can’t have a driver’s license. I mean, they passed a law now, but I’m not sure where that is when the COVID happened. That’s when it passed, and then they shut everything down, so. So, um, you can’t go anywhere out of the city to work, unless you’re gonna get on a bus or something.
Right.
To be honest with you, Susie, in some cases, I stand there and I just wonder how they– I do, I wonder, “How do you all get from one day to the next?”
Yeah.
We have fifteen food pantries in the city, so I imagine, you know, most of the people know where they are, what time, and there’s always a food pantry open pretty much every day of the week. And when we give out food, it probably depends on what we get, but maybe we give you enough to make, like, family dinner, and maybe you’ll get a bag of rice that might last a couple more days. I, in my head, think– I mean, you used to have to register for pantries, but a lot of the pantries have just, like, done away with that, so it’s like if you show up, we’ll give you something. I guess that people get used to just going everyday to a different pantry and standing in line to get food. And you get what you get, and you make do.
01:12:12
Yeah.
I don’t know, I mean we haven’t asked people that, and I think if we did, they might not tell you the truth, because they might be afraid you would stop them, so.
Do you th– I mean, what do you think is gonna happen, like, when the eviction moratorium gets lifted and like?
Well, I want to see now, I guess we’re gonna have to see what floats down from this bill that’s just getting passed at the federal level. Um, there have been funds that have floated down for rental assistance, we don’t do that at the Center, we refer them to Catholic Charities, they have an office for that. Um, but people call all the time, like, “Do you have money to help me with my water bill? Do you have money to help me with my rent?” And we send them to, um, the local church or to Catholic Charities. And then what happens to them after that, is hard for me to say. I know there is not a lot of money. There have been times where, like, “Okay, fifty thousand dollars came in, one day, and you know, tell people they can call us.” That money was gone in like three hours. So, you know, do the math on that, you know? Forty-five thousand dollars and it’s a fiftee– about fifteen thousand dollars for rent for one month? I mean that’s like thirty people.
Yeah, yeah.
So we’ll see. I don’t know, we’ll see what happens. We’ll see what kind of stuff comes down from the government. Hopefully better than last administration.
Yeah. What– what is, like, Unity Square’s relationship to, like, local government? Like, do you guys, like, work together a lot, or not really?
01:13:53
Yeah, we work pretty closely with the city.
Okay.
On different– yeah.
Yeah. And in terms of funding, like, do they– where– where does most of the funding come from?
Well, the– Unity Square is a state grant-funded.
Okay.
Mostly. Um, but there’s lots of little grants and corporate grants, I guess they’ll keep coming, the state will get money from things, and then they might dole it out to the different agencies, depending on what it’s for. And then, you know, we just basically disperse it, then.
Okay. And so, the gardens, is that– where does the funding for the gardens mostly come from? How did that–
The f– the funding for the gardens comes from the same state grant that funds the whole Center and all the programs there.
When– when did Unity Square take over the– ’cause I know the gardens were there before and then Unit– Unity Square got involved. Do you know– do you know about that process, like, how that happened?
Um, were they? I don’t– you know, I don’t know, I think we have a kind of contract for the gardens from 2014 or ‘15 with the city, and the Center opened in 2016.
Okay.
So, I think– I think the gardens were only there for, like, a year or so before that.
Mhm.
But the gre– even though the Center opened in– I’m sorry, the Center opened– yeah, 2016, even though the Center opened in 2016, I think the gardens were there, like, a year before that, but the funding for the project has been, like, about twelve years.
1:15:29
It’s just the building, only– actually, the– the grant funded the building.
Okay.
So–
And how– and they were involved with the gardens for the past twelve years also? Or, is that newer?
Yeah, I think the gardens is run– it’s fr– well, I just have the contract that, um, with the city, which was 2015, so I’m gonna s– think, I don’t know what arrangement they had before that. Um, but, you know, that’s all, like, the city gave the sort of contract of the property over to our management, and then the grant funds that. So we– we do the maintenance, you know, like, one of the, like, Feaster Park, I mean, you saw those gardens. The city was supposed to redo the whole park, and that was going on for like three years. We participated in a– in a design plan, you know, some of the grant funds went for– towards paying the people who design, made the new design, um, like three years ago. That’s been done. Who knows what’s happening now, because of COVID, if the city’s gonna have the money to do it? So, we are gonna rebuild the gardens at Feaster Park, ‘cause we kept saying, well, you know, we’re not gonna rebuild ‘em, because it can all be ripped up soon, and then the city’s gonna build really nice gardens for you, and now they’re just such a mess. So we got, like, two years of– of two years of telling them that, and now– of gardeners that, but now, they’re like, you know, come on, and we’re like, yeah. So we’re gonna, actually, I have somebody coming up on Thursday to look at giving me a quote for at least doing something temporary to make them better for the– ’cause like, all the wood’s rotted and everything, so we have to fix that.
At Feaster Park?
Yeah.
01:17:22
And, so what has your experience of, like, running– helping to, like, run the gardens been like? What– yeah.
Well, I– I, you know, um, at– for me, it’s been good. The gardeners have, like, they’ve like– they’ve liked it and they haven’t liked it, um– [laughter] They– I think that there was more money in the past to do things, and we had more staff, so there was a person that was just dedicated for taking care of the gardener– gardens, which we don’t have anymore.
Right.
So, um, when they first got built, everybody was really excited about them, they were brand new, and they had the barbeques there, and things like that, and then over the years that sort of fell off. When I got there, there wasn’t too–
When was this? Like, in 2015?
Um, I’m guessing that was probably, like, 2014, ‘15, ‘16, and then, but, when I got there in 2018, the Landers Gardens were pretty much, um, kind of a mess.
Mm.
And, the garden was kind of messy, so we cleaned it up a lot, cut down a tree, blah blah, the Feaster Park Gardens were kind of falling apart, but we were like, okay, we’re not gonna do anything, ‘cause maybe the park– it– you know, they’re gonna rip them up soon. Um, so– you know, in two thousand– fall 2018, there were– it was kind of a mess. So, I’m like, let– that’s why we started to partner, you know, when Dan came along with his proposal, we were like, “yeah, let’s do this,” ‘cause this garden, like, the shed was falling apart, and um, you know, the gar– you know, we need to get this cleaned up. So we’re working on that part right now, to get the beds redone, and, um, you know, the gardeners are happy, but, like, last summer they were like, “only half the beds got rebuilt,” so the ones that didn’t get a new bed were complaining about it. So, alright, that’s fine. And then, um, and then they were– that’s when they were sort of like, “well, in the old days, we used to do all this good stuff,” and, you know, so we’re like, “well, we’ll try to bring it back,” you know. I don’t have much history with it, so, um, you know, I don’t– we have had meetings and things, and we’re gonna have meetings next week, so, we’ll see what’s needed. And unfortunately, because of the COVID, a lot of the stuff got delayed in being fixed up, so it’s still not ideal over at Landers, and now we also have to focus on Feaster.
01:19:30
Right. From– from, like–
We’ll say the–
What, what are, like, the benefits of the garden, like, to the community? Like, what have you witnessed, like, in terms of–
Well, I think that you– you talk– you talking to them would probably tell you more than I can, ‘cause I can’t really talk to them, but, of course, I do, like, a plot in my town. And I like to garden, you know, the picture of my dad, like, I– I guess I should’ve mentioned that, like, when we were growing up, we used to have– he always had a garden, a big garden. And he would always send us out there to weed and stuff, which, of course, we hated. But, um, you know, now I’ve learned to love it. So, I’m grateful to him, ‘cause he had a really– a green thumb, you know? He– he could grow a lot of great stuff, he had beautiful gardens in his yard. Um, so, it’s just, like, being outside and doing that is, like, very, you know, it’s– it’s very life-giving. As a matter of fact, right before I talked to you, I was just sorting through all my tomato seeds and trying to figure out which ones I’m gonna start, so I think that the gardeners at– the– the gardeners do that, too. I think you talked to, um, what was it, Dora, last year? About how she got seeds from–
Mexico.
Her relatives?
Yeah.
Yeah. Which, I was like, “don’t tell people that you’re sending seeds across the border.” [Laughter] Don’t do that.
But it’s great, because it can go both ways, like that, you know.
Exactly, so, I was like, “okay, so that was good, though” right? I mean, she– so, she has a connection to her family.
Yeah.
Through doing that, and her own history, so that’s, like, really good, so, like, you know– And I understand that, because, like, I grow– like I said, my father– he would, you know, when it was dinner time in the summer, they’d be like, “go pick the lettuce,” so, you know, you didn’t just like, go out there, and like lop the lettuce head off, you had to take a little knife, and you had to cut all the little leaves all around the outside because that would make it keep growing, and then you’d get more, and I would just be like, “Can’t we just, like, go [womp sound] take the whole thing?” So, you know, you have all those connections– to people, by doing that.
01:21:29
What else– what else did you grow in the garden?
My dad?
Yeah.
Oh, he grew, like, you know, lettuce, and tomatoes, like the things that you grow in New Jersey– corn.
Mhm.
Um, so we had all that stuff, so now, you know, I’m out there looking at my lettuce seeds, and I’m– like, my tomatoes, and my father would be like, “Don’t put your tomatoes in the ground before May 15th,” and duhduhduh– and so you have all that history, and it’s really nice to– and I– when I garden, I think about him. So I’m sure that the gardeners also think about their families, and stuff, and remembering their, maybe, childhood experiences with, like, agriculture. And I– so I– you know, that’s really important, especially now.
Yeah. Yeah, everyone I’ve spoken to has, like, some childhood experience with growing, yeah. Yeah, I feel like there’s probably something in like the muscle memory of– of doing something, and like, and I feel like it’s–
Yeah.
What do you– what do you–
And when I hear myself telling my kids how to pick the lettuce, and I’m like– and [with laughter] I remember how much I hated doing that, and then you would get, like, a little slug or something would be in the lettuce, and I was like, “Ugh!!!” I hate that, you know. And now I laugh, because it’s like, yeah, you do it to your own kids, right?
Right, yeah.
01:22:42
Do you– are you– how much of, like, the food that you grow, like, do you eat? Like, do you, like, manage to, like, eat a good amount of, like, the food that you grow?
Well, I live in the woods.
Mhm.
Which is a great challenge, that’s why I have an allotment in town, so, and like, I live in the woods, and I don’t have a fence in my yard, which– because on the street I live in, nobody has a fence, it’s sort of like, this agreement. And so, the deer eat everything, and the rabbits, and this nice little possum who comes up and eats everything. Like, they all– fox, I’ve got all these little animals, so that’s really hard to grow stuff in my yard. But, so, the question is, I eat– the answer to the question– is that I eat as much as I can, you know, before somebody else gets to it. Um, my allotment is fenced in, so I grow– like, I love to grow the lettuce, like, I’ll put lettuce out soon, um, ‘cause that comes in fast, and radishes, and herbs, which I like to cook with. So that’s basically what I grow in my yard. And in my allotment, I put my tomato plants over there, because the deer will just eat all the tomato.
Right, yeah. Where is your allotment?
It’s about a mile away from my house.
Okay. Is it, like, in a community garden?
Yeah, it– so in Princeton, in the– the town of– like by one of the schools, they’ve turned a lot into about twenty gardens, so, um, you know, you go– it’s just the same as they do it– we’re doing. You get on the list, you get your garden, you know, you gotta take care of it, and, uh, you know, you have it from, like– well, I guess they’ll be getting in touch with me soon. Actually, they– you– the Community Square gardens, we let– we give them more time, which I really wish mine did. They make us clean everything out by the second week of October, so you can’t really do fall– any fall crops. We– we let the gardeners stay ‘til, like, November 1st.
Right.
01:24:33
Um, and, they can go in at March 15th is the official date that the city lets us go in there, so that’s why we’re working on– I mean, we already had– on [unintelligible] already came over, like, two weeks ago, and, like, “when can I get in my garden?” So, we’re like, “we’re– you know, we’re working on it, we’re getting there,” so, um, hopefully next week or so we’ll be building the gardens, fixing them up, starting to do that, so–
Okay, great. So– and you– you wanna–
That’s it.
Build new beds, right? That’s in– that’s in the plan?
Yeah, we have to. Yeah. They may not be super fancy–
Are you doing it this spring?
Yeah, well, hopefully we’d do it next week.
Oh, okay.
Or, next couple weeks.
Yeah.
Because they’re just– you know, people want to go in there and plant, like, their lettuce, and radishes, and their early spring crops, and– get them built and get some soil in there, so.
Okay. Yeah. Well, I– for me, that’s, like, all the questions that I have, I’m wondering if there’s anything else you wanna add, or anything else that we didn’t touch upon that you feel like would be good to say?
Um, no, I think that’s pretty thorough, I– thank you for listening for, like, almost, um, ninety minutes.
[laughter]
That’s a lot.
No, thank you so much for– for everything you shared, and this has been super helpful, um, if– yeah, if– if you guys are, like, planning on, like, doing stuff in the garden, like, I was thinking of maybe sometime in the spring, like, going to the gardens again, ‘cause I feel like it was nice– be nice to get, like, pictures of it, like, in the spring, ‘cause I have pictures of it in the fall, for, like, the illustrations and stuff, so– let me know, like, if– if I can–
Okay.
Come and help, also.
Well, you know what? Oh– okay, great. What I’ll do is, I’m gonna be meeting with Luis on Thursday, and I’m hoping he’ll– so next, so not this week, but then maybe– okay, the week of the– 15th or the weekend of the 22nd, that he’ll– we’ll start getting the materials, and, um, he’ll start doing things.
1:26:32
Who’s Luis?
And, um, I mean– Luis is, like, he’s like, a guy I know for many years. His daughter went to the same Catholic school as my youngest daughter, and he’s a– he’s a handyman, so he’s done some stuff around the house, and he’s actually retired now, he’s getting ready to go back to Guatemala.
Oh, okay.
So, if you ever, like– he’s– he’s got some pretty interesting life stories [laughter], um, so I don’t know if he’d be– he probably wouldn’t mind telling you stories, because he loves to tell stories. Um–
I mean, if he’s been involved in the Garden, I– I– I could interview him, if– if you feel like he would, like–
Well, he hasn’t been involved in my– in this– in the Unity Square Gardens yet, ‘cause he’s actually sort of, like, a friend.
Oh, okay.
He’s done– he’s done stuff for me in my house, and also, like, when I had beehives, he would, like, you know, talk to me about his beehives and he’d build little things for me for my beehives, ‘cause he likes to build things, so I just saw him last weekend, and I’m like, “Hey, you wanna come build these gardens for me?”
01:27:34
Okay.
So he’s like, “Yeah, I’ll come up and take a look at it.” But he’s a really interesting guy. You know, he went over to Puerto Rico, when– after Hurricane Maria and helped people build, um, build houses back and– and things, because he worked for the Princeton Theological Seminary. He was sort of, like, their handyman.
Okay.
Um, and then, you know, now he’s retired. So, anyway, but what I’ll do is, I will let you, um, when we have a– um, I mean, Michelle’s supposed to begin the gardening meetings next week, so I think we talked about that, like, I will– like if– when we know what time it is, we can maybe hook you up with Zoom to be present at the meeting?
Totally.
If you want to do that, it’ll probably be some night next week. I– I have to– I’ll let you know. And then, when Luis and I meet Thursday, like, if I know when I know the timeline I’ll let you know.
Okay.
And then, you know, and you can do whatever with that, okay?
Great, yeah, thank you so much.