Parnika Celly is finishing up her Master’s degree in social work and is an intern at I-RISE. She recently initiated Creative Connections to provide a virtual arts development space for the I-RISE community.
“We live in a very disconnected world. Even before the pandemic, we live in a very disconnected world. Um, and creating community, creating spaces for people to come together, um, is, I think, the major key to, like, combatting a lot of the more negative aspects of our world and a lot of the pain that people have experienced.”
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: Guneeta Singh Bhalla, “What Really Caused the Violence of Partition?,” The Diplomat, August 28, 2019.
Learn More [2]: Kallie Szczepanski, “How India and Pakistan Were Created,” ThoughtCo, August 14, 2019.
Learn More [3]: Stanford University, “The 1947 Partition Archive: Survivors and Their Memories,” Spotlight at Stanford, accessed August 19, 2022.
Learn More: “Mental Health Facts,” South Asian Public Health Association, accessed August 19, 2022.
Learn More [2]: Alison Karasz et al., “Mental Health and Stress among South Asians,” Journal of Immigrant and Minority Health 21, no. 1 (August 21, 2019): 7–14.
Learn More [4]: Jasleen Singh, “Mental Health Stigma in South Asian Communities,” Illinois Psychiatric Society, Spring 2022.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Ashley Teague
Interview conducted remotely
March 24, 2021
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
Annotations by Lanai McAuley
[00:00:00]
Okay, I’m recording. And, I– These are the things I want you to know: One–
Yes.
If anything I ask you wanna pass on, just pass.
[overlapping, inaudible agreement]
Or if you’re like, “Uh, I need to come back to it”? Totally cool. Likewise, if, like, we talk about anything and after the interview you’re like “Ew, actually, I wanna take that out, I don’t, I, I don’t like that I said that.” I can go back and edit it out before I send it to the people who transcribe it.
Okay!
So you’re the boss, like. It’s only, it’s not like, tryin’ to be like gotcha journalism. It’s true–
Yeah yeah yeah.
What’s the story you wanna share. So I just, that should be like the feeling overall. Um–
That’s good.
And then the other thing to note is, they really like, like, um. Dates and locations and names? So if it’s like, “this is a story about my grandma,” and it helps to be like “my grandma Virgina Haan, we were in–”
Got it.
“[inaudible] Reading, Pennsylvania.” Like, dropping in those little nuggets that people–
Mhm hmm.
You know, is always helpful. Okay.
Got it.
Um. And then I’m gonna slate and say, hi, my name is Ashley Teague. And the date is March 24th, 2021. And we are on Zoom because there is a global pandemic. That is of concern. Um. And then, will you tell me your name and spell it for me for the record?
[laughs] Yeah. So my name is Parnika Celly. So, Parnika is P-A-R-N-I-K-A, and Celly is C-E-L-L-Y.
Okay. And can you tell me where you were born and what year?
Yeah, I was born in Ontario, Canada in Galt in 1996.
And did you grow up there or did you move around at all? What’s sort of like your, your journey in terms of–
Yeah, so I– We moved, um, actually, two months after I– I was there because my, my dad had been getting, um, his Ph D. So they moved there from India. Um. We, af– two months after I was born, we went back to India for, like, a hot second while we, um– They were gonna move back and then, they just like from [audio garbles, inaudible] and such, I don’t know too many details. But they decided not to. Um. Came back to Canada, economy was bad. My dad couldn’t get a job there, so he came to the US. Um. But I was 2 years old, and so I grew up in the US. I went back to Canada for my undergraduate degree. Um, I went to the University of Toronto. In 2014? Um, graduated 2018, stayed there for a little bit and worked. Um, and then came back here in, like, fall of 2019 for my Masters. And have been– [audio cuts out]
So you were just a little baby when you guys went back to India for a quote “hot sec”.
Yeah!
As you said. But do you, do you know what part of India you were in?
Yeah, yeah. So we, we’d go back to India all the time, like, very regularly? Um, from, um, Punjab which is kind of like in the, like, north–west, um, corner. It’s like by, um. It’s actually like that state was split in half when India and Pakistan were partitioned. Um. And, it’s like, very actually, like, it’s a little bit cooler. There’s, like, mountains and stuff in some regions, it’s very agricultural. Um. So that’s, like, where my family is from, although parts of them were in the capital of India, New Delhi.
[00:03:00]
Um. They had [audio cuts out] move there, like, there was, like, some terror. My family had ended up moving there. Um. And yeah, so I mean we would go back to both places.
[Editor’s Note: The Partition of India was the process of dividing British India along sectarian lines, which took place in 1947 as India gained its independence from the British Raj. The northern, predominantly Muslim sections of India became the nation of Pakistan, while the southern and majority Hindu section became the Republic of India.]
So do you– Did you speak multiple languages at home or was it a English speaking house, or how did language work?
Yeah. So we spoke multiple languages. Um. My, my parents would speak Punjabi to each other. Um. My sister and I– my sister used to speak Punjabi when she was very little. Um. But they actually moved to a different state so they had to start– Stop talking to her in Punjabi and start talking in Hindi which is the national language. Um. So by the time I was born, which is many years later– She’s older than me. Um. They had been so accustomed to speaking to her in Hindi, they never spoke to me in Punjabi. Um. So I can understand it, I can’t speak it very well. Um, but I can speak Hindi very well. Um, so my sister and I speak that to my parents. They speak Punjabi to each other, we speak Hindi to them, and my sister and I would usually speak some combination of Hindi, mostly English to each other.
And is– so is this your older sister? Or what’s–
Yeah.
Tell me about your sibling situation.
Yeah, so I have one older sister. She’s eight years older than me. Um. She actually– my parents were not gonna have another kid? Originally, um, they had no plans to. My sister actually begged them for a sibling for years and, like, apparently used to come home every day and, like, pray for a sibling. Um. So when they realized it wasn’t a phase and they were like, “Okay, maybe this is a good idea.” Um. That’s kind of, like, how I was born. So she’s always been like a mini-mom. Um. And like, you know, obviously siblings fight. When we were kids, we did. Um, we’re very, very close, uh, even now. Um. Yeah! She’s like, one of– Definitely one of the most important people in my life.
Mhm. That’s beautiful!
Yeah!
So, uh. Were there any other relatives like aunties or uncles or grandparents who live with you or is it your parents and then your sister? What was–
Yeah! So our biological family was all in India? Um. Or, or in other parts of the world, we’re kind of scattered. Um. [quiet buzz] I have some cousins who now live in Canada, but they moved very recently so, for in general, it was really just us four in terms of biological family. [deep breath] Um, as many immigrants do, we sought out kind of our own community, and, um. So I have a lot of like, non–biological aunties and uncles that way. Um. Very, like, big community that we grew up with where everyone, like, I think everyone really played a role in raising each other’s kids and, and stuff like that.
Mhm.
Yeah.
That’s beautiful. Um, uh, okay. So I always wanna respond but I’m supposed to be doing this like, I’m supposed to be a professional narrator, I’m not–
[laughs]
Er, interview. I’m not supposed to make comments, it’s not about me. Um. So, uh– Anything else about that childhood period, about, like, mentors or childhood heroes or people in particular you looked up to, who were really influential? This is– It’s really interesting, just the idea of, like, community being a big part of your sort of origin story. I think that says a lot about you and the work that you do is– it’s sort of tells me a lot about how you work now.
[00:06:13]
Yeah, I mean it’s, you know. Community definitely was important. I think, for, for me at like a– I grew up going to, to Catholic school– Really only because of the– [chuckles] It was actually ‘cause of my birthday? I’m not Catholic, but, um, just, had, like, it was practical, essentially? And then I got comfortable there, so my parents did what they could to keep me where I was comfortable. Um. ‘Cause I was a shy kid. [chuckle] Um, so, my parents, uh, though like, at like, they definitely wanted me to be, like, in touch with, like, our culture and our roots. Again, as all immigrants generally do. Um, they had that fear of, like, losing culture and I think that having that community was a big part– It was actually based in kind of like a religious community. Um, and we have a few religious communities that we’re connected to, but that was kind of the, the base of how we all got to know each other?
Um, so I think it was really important for them to have, like, that kind of, like, exposure in multiple ways? And it was interesting because none of these people are from the area of India we’re from? And so, since there’s a lot of diversity there? We learn– Even my parents learned a lot of things about the country, like, other parts of the country that they never knew living there and growing up there. Um. So I definitely had a lot of, like, like, support in a lot of, um– Also just like, I learned a lot from the people around me. Um, in terms of heroes, though, actually I think my, my dad has always been my biggest hero ‘cause just, like. Basically, like, he grew up in a situation where, like, when they were in India they were not, like, you know, didn’t have a whole lot of money. Um. He did all of his education from 5th grade through his PhD basically on either merit scholarships or on, like– He had, like, working himself. They couldn’t, like, manage to support it. Um. So. And also, like, he just basically did like a bajillion things at any given day? [laughs] So like, you know, apart from, like, working and everything, he’d come home and he would, like, sit there and, like, teach me. I used to think I was really smart. And when I got to college, I was like, I don’t think I was actually really smart? I think my dad just invested a lot of time in making sure [laughs] I understood things? Um. Like, whether it was like, we would like, play games to teach me spelling. Like. Just like. Or just like little things, just to make, like, keep me engaged. Like. Take me to the park and stuff like that. Like, um. There were some issues my mom sometimes had with her health and stuff which I think made it really difficult sometimes to, like, be as involved in parenting? So sometimes he had to take those over too. So between that and taking care of the household stuff and, like, working and everything. Um. And just also having this, like, general passion for, like, caring for others and also like, um, like learning new things? Um, those all of kind came together. So he’s definitely the person who’s, like, most influential and who I looked up to most. [audio garbles] And still look up to most.
[00:09:00]
Um– That makes me wonder about your own journey in, um– Uh. Do you, like, do you remember the first time you fell in love? Like, has it, in like, seeking also like. You know. You know, I don’t know what your, your vision of your future is, if it involves, like, marriage or partnership in that way. But having an awesome dad always makes that complicated, you know. ‘Cause you’re like “Well.” [inaudible overlapping]
Oh, I’m so sorry, you cut out, could you repeat yourself?
Sorry, what was that?
Oh, you, you cut out. Could you repeat yourself?
Yeah, I was saying, I don’t know what your vision for your future is in terms of, like, partnership or marriage and things like that. But I wonder, like–
Yeah.
Do you– I’m curious about your, um, you know. When you have an awesome dad it’s like, well. Can you do one hundred things at once and get a PhD?
[laughs]
Like, by the [inaudible]. Um. Do you remember the first time you fell in love? Do you have any stories around that?
You know, I feel like I had a, like, a series of, like, crushes and things like that. Um, I have a partner now. We’re long distance. Um, and, like. I feel like he– It’s funny that you mention, like, that related to, like, being like a great dad or whatever. I see a lot of traits that are very similar, um, between them. Um, especially in terms of, like– Just, like, being able to learn about new things and being, like, respectful and, like, just very caring? Um– So, I, I feel like it was interesting for us because I feel like I had a series of different, like, crushes on people? But then. I never had a crush on my current partner. Um. We were really good friends and then one fine day, like, we were like, “Um–. Maybe we’re like actually, have more than just, like, friends. Like. Actually feelings? I don’t know!” Um. [laughs] And we kind of just tried! We’re like “let’s try this out and see what happens.” And it, it ended up being, like, helpful for both of us? Um. And just a great relationship. Like, we cared really deep– Basically came down to, we care very deeply about each other. Um. And also just, we would joke around that, like, basically like, we both helped each other’s mental health a lot of times through some really tough times. Um, so we joked that, like, I was like “oh, you’re like my serotonin! Like my SSRI!” [laughs] You know, um, not, not to say that people shouldn’t take medication for things like that, but, um, that’s kind of like the– Yeah.
And you said long distance– Where are they?
He’s back in Canada.
Mmm. And has, has he met the parents? How long have you been together?
We’ve been together almost four years. Um. And yeah, he’s met the parents and everything. Um. Which is interesting ‘cause he’s not from my culture. Um, but, like, they have, they were, like, accepting and um. They like him as far as I can tell. At least that’s what they say. [laughs] So. Everything’s, everything’s good! Yeah.
That’s good. Was it nerve wracking, that first, like, telling them about or bringing him home?
[00:12:00]
I think when I told them about it, it was. I don’t know. I think they, like, had an inkling? ‘Cause, like, I told them, like, who I would be hanging out with half the time. And like, “Oh yeah, so-and-so’s coming over and we’re doing whatever, whatever.” Um. And they kind of like– Figured it out? But like. I don’t know. They were, their reaction was weird, so it was, like, I don’t know how I feel about this! But then, um, I feel like they, they’d already met him at that point, actually. Um, and they seem to really like him, or at least they were, like, not disliking him, so that was a positive thing. [laughs] Um, when we, kind of like, officially met, like, meet-the-parents type thing, I feel like it was– Pretty informal? I couldn’t get a read on it because my parents were just being nice so I was like, “This is not– They’re not the kind of people who are, like, gonna flip tables or something!” [laughs] So. I, I don’t, I was like I don’t know! Um. I feel like it was actually– My sister told me early on that she even liked him, so that gave me confidence. Um. And it wasn’t actually until I was leaving Canada, like, for like coming back here that I asked my dad, I was like, “What do you think of him? I never ask you.” And he was like “No, I think he’s good. I like him. It’s all good.” Um– Yeah! [laughs]
Phew! Passed the dad test. Um.
[laughs] Yeah!
Okay, so tell me, what is your, where are you at school? Like, what’s your role, what’s your major? What are you doing? And then also your role as–
RCHP. All your titles.
Yeah. All my titles. Right now I’m a Masters student. Masters of Social Work. Um. I don’t know if this is relevant but basically I didn’t– I didn’t do my Bachelor’s in social work. I majored in psychology and double minored in theater and anthropology. Um, and so kind of, the psychology and anthropology came together into social work. [chuckles] Um– And so– Yeah. So I mean, I, right now that’s what I’m doing. I’m finishing up in my last semester, um, and about to graduate. Um, apart from that, I also work as a contact tracer right now. That’s, like, my actual job. And at the Reformed Church I’m an intern. Um. So I think that’s all my titles right now.
And you’re interning with– So, it’s, like, taking me five months to get– So there’s a Reformed Church of Highland Park, that’s RCHP.
[overlapping] Yes.
And, and there’s a Reformed Church of Highland Park: Affordable Housing Corporation–
Yes.
And I RISE Interfaith is–
[overlapping] Yes.
[inaudible, overlapping] So what is, where is your internship sort of nestled in all of that?
It’s nestled in I RISE, I believe. I’ve done a little bit of work with other parts, but mainly it’s been I RISE, and that’s, like, officially on my, like, paperwork and everything for the school is I RISE.
And I RISE Interfaith RISE is, um. In particular, like, the brand– Would you tell me, you tell me what it is instead of me telling you what it is.
[00:14:51]
Yeah. Um. So, I mean, you know. It provides resettlement services for, um, refugees. Um. SIVs and some asylees who have already, like, gotten their asylum case, like, won their case. Um. So providing things like housing. Um, working through, like, benefits and things like that to get people settled. Um. Connecting people with, um, jobs and schools for kids. Um, or higher education for adults. Um, and just basically figuring out, like, where, how can we help people, like, in their new country, like, as they get literally– Literally resettled, like. How do we get them settled in and how do we, um, support their growth going forwards? Um. This is my understanding.
Yeah! [sniff] That’s great. That’s one of the best descriptions I’ve heard of it. I’m not supposed to say stuff like that, I’m supposed to be neutral.
[laughs]
I’m terrible at this version of interviewing. Um.
[laughs] I get it!
So, uh– What– How did you get involved with them? How did you get involved in that particular, like, with your major and with your focus you could be working in so many different, sort of, arenas. How, how is that an interest for you?
Yeah it’s, it’s interesting. I. [sigh] So originally when I came into this program, I’m in a clinical social work actually, I should mention. Um, and my specialization is global social work, um, and social development. And so, um, I– Basically had come with the– with this goal: When I was originally in psychology and, like, now in social work, I was like, “Oh, I wanna become like a therapist.” And that was, that was my goal, um, as a person who has, like– has a mental illness myself. And, um, also like. Coming from an immigrant where mental health and mental illness, like, is largely unaddressed for many reasons. Um. Actually, that is another title I didn’t mention. I volunteer with an organization called MannMukti as a research and content officer. So I like, write blog posts and create content. I’m focused on, um, South Asian mental health. Um. So that is another thing. But coming back to this, um, [laughs] I have– Basically, yeah. Focusing on migration and the impact on mental health and kind of the disparities, um, that exist in this space has been something that I’ve been wanting to do for a long time coming from my own experience. Um, last year, actually, my first internship, I did not have anything remotely clinical. It was generalist year, so it was with the Jewish Federation in the heart of New Jersey. I learned a lot of really cool things about like, non–profit management and stuff like that. Um, and also a lot about, like, developing, you know, like, understanding of other cultures and things like that because I didn’t really know much about the Jewish community until then. Um, and had a lot of really awesome people to teach me a lot. Um, and so, kind of growing based off of that as well, here, um, at RCHP, I, I had told basically the, the field office like, “hey, I want– Here are my interests. Mental health and, like, immigrants, refugees, migrants. This kind of space.” Um. So they, they had matched me with, um– I RISE because of the latter portion. Um. There’s not really a mental health, like– There is church based mental health services– It’s not something that I ended up be– Getting involved with, um.
[00:18:16]
But basically, like I– Wanted to kind of get experience with understanding, um, how do we work with various populations who are migrants, um, as well, I had taken a course last year on, like, working with immigrants and refugees, so. I feel like a lot of, like, the issues that, like, people face in the resettlement process, um, are things I had not known about before? ‘Cause my family is immigrant but not refugee so I obviously, uh, wouldn’t know that. Um– So just understanding some of those things was really interesting to me, because, um, even though I have, like, a mental health lens, like, everything is mental health, right? Like, housing is mental health. Jobs, mental health. Like, everything! Moving itself and, like, the motivations and loss of expectations and acculturation––all these things are part and parcel of mental health. Um, so I think that in every day interactions with people, like, both developing that skill set of like, how do you work with different individuals or what kind of issues do people face? Like, understanding that, um, is also part of developing that lens of understanding mental health in, and some of the needs that might come up, um, with this population. So. Yeah!
Mhm. And have you been working much with the client community, um. I, I like to ask, like, who’s the community that– that we serve? Because it’s so– I, uh, have really worked with an organization that’s serving such a hu– Like. Enormously, just, like if we had–
[laughs] Everyone!
Like if we had ten translators on the project, it wouldn’t be enough trans– Like.
[laughs]
You know. So it’s, yeah, like, who– what has been sort of your experience with the client community who we’re serving?
Um– I, in terms of like people come from? If that’s what you’re asking. I’m not too sure if I am actually able to share that, like, I mean, just from a perspective of, like, confidentiality reasons? Um. Not 100% sure so I won’t share that. Um. And– Just, I guess, the– the clients that we serve, you know, like I said, that they’re people who are, um– Essentially, at the end of the day, they’re fleeing something. Um, that– that’s the simplest way to put it. They’re– Something horrible has happened and they have to, like, escape it for their lives. Um– What those technicalities are, between SIV and refugee and asylum, these are all bureaucrat– Bureaucracy in my opinion. [laughs] Um. Like, they’re, there are different distinctions and they’re used for them, for sure, but basically, like, at the end of the day, people we work with are people who have faced a lot of trauma. And who are, um, trying to create a new life away from that trauma. And simultaneously dealing with that, um, that’s, like, the broadest way of putting it? I think that every client we work with obviously has, like, a lot of individual difference? Um. Sometimes they’re families. Sometimes they’re single people. Sometimes it’s a couple. Um. And there might be any number of people within those, um, families as well. Like, how, like the composition may look different. Um, so there’s a lot of diversity there. And, um, a lot of potential challenges, too, right? Like if you have people who are older and maybe not literate, that’s different than like a child and like their parents.
[00:21:26]
There’s gonna be challenges in both situations. But different challenges, um, and their individual, like, I think one of the things that we, you know, people come from different countries. Um, but also within those countries, there are different sub–groupings and, like, sub–cultures and stuff. That obviously impact, um, how they might approach different things or how they think about the world or how they may react to us. Um, in terms of, like, what our expectations are and where their expectations are or like. Different values and things like that. Um. [phone vibrates] So all those kinds of factors make it– Like, they definitely add a lot of different, like, challenges and things for us to think about? Um, when we’re trying to address people’s needs? And again, from, like, my mental health lens that I kind of always have in the back of my mind, doing, there’s different expectations. Um, and we kind of have a certain way of doing things because we have to sometimes? Like, in terms of the processes that we have to engage in, like. You have to get a job by X, like, in this amount of time. Or you have to, like, sign this paperwork. You have to pay these taxes in whatever, whatever. Um– Kind of, there’s, like, sometimes losses of expectations or losses of, um– Like. Val– Er, values that get violated I should say. Um. And, so all of those things are also things that might also impact mental health in many ways.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Um. I wanna ask a question, I’m trying to formulate it. You can help me ask it. It’s sort of about, like. This work is so– Heavy. Like, you’ve, you know. You’re naming–
[overlapping] Yeah.
Your trauma. And like–
[overlapping] Yeah.
Dealing with people who are up against, who are, you know. Uh– Advocating for, you know. Uh. Supporting people who are dealing with serious trauma and who are, in, you know, Um. And how do you, I guess– I wonder, like, how do you stay in it? Like, how do you, how do you as a social worker, as someone who’s, you know. How do you– what is it that you love about it that keeps you in it? Like, why do you keep that fight up? Like, why do you keep that fight up? Like, is it, are there days when you just wanna, um, say like “Gosh, maybe I should just be a therapist for the stars!” Or, like.
[laughs]
How do you, how do you stay in it and how do you deal with the weight and the– the challenges of it?
Yeah. I think, um– It’s, it’s definitely a, a question that works for really all social workers. Um, I think– I personally think that everyone has, like, different pains that they carry with them? And when you’re working with people, you’re always engaging those pains. In some capacity or another. Whether you’re consciously doing so or not, um.
[00:24:06]
When it comes to like. Are there days where I feel like frustrated by it? Honestly, the days I feel frustrated by it has nothing to do with the clients. It has more to do with bureaucracy? ‘Cause I have very lit– Just my personality. I have little patience for that. Um. So that, [laughs] that’s more of a me, um, being frustrated with the world that we live in rather than our clients. Um, I think that some of the, like, the– the answer to the first part, I guess in your question, like, how do you stay in it? Um, one of– I actually took a class on trauma last year– uh, last semester. And one of the first assignments they made us do was you had to make a self–care plan. Um, because they were like, “you have to, you have to take care of yourself.” I, I, I am terrible at this, and I’ve been really actively trying to get better at it. Because, you need to! Um, it’s just, she was like, saying, it’s like, self–preservat– My professor would say it was self–preservation. Um, it’s not indulgence or anything, it’s like absolutely a necessity and it’s part of the job. Um– I think that when you’re working with clients, some of the things that I’ve heard from people, uh, have been– Heavy? But also, like, just, I think that there’s also, like, another, there’s a term I remember reading about that was like Post Traumatic Growth? I, something like that, and, um, we can become traumatized by the things that your clients have experienced when they talk about it? But you can also, like, grow with them in some ways? Um, from my understanding of it. So, if I have, like, someone who has talked about, like, their struggle, um, in, for example getting education and now I see them, like, really doing well! Like, whether they maybe realize it or not, um, and they’re doing an excellent job, like. Seeing how they’ve grown, I think is its own form of, like, wow, this is, this is amazing! Just that capacity for growth? Um, and like, that, that side of it is almost, like, energizing and recharging. Like, you have so much strength in you and you inspire me. Um, because I think that’s a really important pra–aspect of, like, social work and that approach where, um, as opposed to some other fields that are kind of similar helping fields? Um,trying to see things as not being– I’m helping you, it’s about being like I have some skills and you have some things and let’s put it together and work together. Um, that kind of empowerment aspect is important, and I think that’s what kind of also makes it more, um, healing work? Or inspirational work? When you, like, see the strength of others and can just be inspired by that to feel like, okay, yeah! The world is awful and there’s so many horrible things going on, but look at how many beautiful things are also going on! Look at how much, like, strength this person has shown to, like, be here with me today. Um– I think that those moments are, like, just pure human connection. Um. Are recharging in many ways. [pause]
[00:27:06]
[computer typing] Um. I’m, sorry, I’m typing some of that because it’s so, that is so beautiful! Um– [pause] Yeah, those moments of successes, that’s what I’m hearing from a lot of people too, that, like, you know, I’ve been asking a lot of people like, “what is the policy shift we need to see?” People talk about this, like you’re saying there’s bureaucracy, right? Like. [inaudible] ladies are, like, two days a week I’m doing paper works. Two whole days are paperwork days! And, like, some of that’s necessary, and some of that means I’m not– Like, actually serving–
Yeah.
My clients in the best way I can. Um. And so I’ve been asking a lot about, like, policy change and I’m curious from your point of view, like. What could we be doing– As a country, like. How could systems be better to be serving, um, refugees and asylum seekers and immigrants in general? Um. But also those stories of direct advocacy, those, like, one-on-one success–
[overlapping] Yeah.
Stories seem to be really what people are, um, sharing with me more than anything else. More than, like, the bigger, you know, moments of policy shift or something. Do you have things that you––
[overlapping, inaudible]
Oh! Go ahead.
Oh, no. I was just gonna say yeah, I mean. I think that people, um– And, and sometimes it’s, it’s the growth? But also I think it’s sometimes, it’s not even about, um, successes but still about that human connection, like, just being able to, like, sit with someone in a space and like–
[computer typing]
Have that kind of like, extensive– I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it exactly, but you kind of almost– A healing presence, um, just in the room or which, whatever [chuckles] virtual space is between you! Um. And [audio garbles, cuts out] And just connecting on anything! Um, I recently just talked to someone about, um.
[computer typing]
They are worried about, like, their kids losing their language or, like, their sense of culture, something like that. And I was like, relatable! Because that was my parents! [chuckles] Um, we shared, like, our just, a special moment. It had nothing to do really with success, it was really more about fear! But it was just. Could that connection, was, like, a, a strong moment, I feel. [pause] Um, in terms of policies, I, I am entering this work obviously. [laughs] At a very unique time! Um, with the pandemic. So– I don’t know what things are normally like! I never experienced them. I imagine they’re probably still broken, but that’s my personal bias. [laughs] I feel like that’s probably a problem. Um, but right now, we’re just. We’re dealing with communities that get forgotten in a lot of ways? Um, from something as simple as when we were trying to get some of our clients COVID tested initially. We couldn’t! Because all of the, um, the, the places were like drive-in and not everyone has a car! So– [laughs] If you don’t have walk-up appointments, how you gonna get COVID tested? Um, but I can tell you as a contact tracer, on the other side of that, like, I hadn’t heard anything of this nature, like, being addressed, or [audio garbles] maybe it was at places higher up than me. But I just, I, everything I had read about, I had spent a lot of time reading, um, about COVID and the pandemic and our response and all of that. I didn’t see anything.
[00:30:09]
Um, addressing that at all. And– Um, otherwise, too, like, I, I know that there were, their frustrations about backlogs. Uh, for, for various, like, paperwork related things for when people came in. Backlogs and, um. Just– lots of extra hoops, um, that people would have to jump through to get something as simple as, like, rental assistance. Which is like– Just, there’s, there’s a lot of things that I’m like this– I don’t know. I just think that they’re very pointless? I think that they’re humiliating, um, in many ways. And I think that, you know, you can tell, we have a very strong bias against [chuckles] helping people? Um, in our systems?
[computer typing]
And, ah, yeah. I mean. It, it, we’re not about, we’re not about providing social safety nets at all. Um, which, I just feel like I– I didn’t know about or notice really until I learned about it at school. And then I see it now, quite a bit, because in the pandemic– People, you know, are losing their, all sorts of supports, left, right, and center. Their jobs and all sorts of things. Um, and yet, we, we are not really sup– Providing that much to support folks. If someone for example, one of our, if our client wanted to quit a job, you know, and they’re low wage workers, um, they wanted to quit a job because let’s say they’re worried about COVID. There’s not much out there to support them in making that decision. They’re not empowered to do so. Um, so– in, and you know, they’re not often in situations where they can work from home, either. So basically it’s risk your family’s health, risk your own health, or you can starve. Um, and we won’t deem you necessarily– We may not deem you nece– Like, eight, er– Worthy of providing support, either. So. Yeah! All of these things– Across the board, like, the pandemic has amplified, like, a lot of little cracks and really shattered a lot of systems, I think.
[computer typing] Um. That’s– [phone vibrates] Um, okay. Um. So, okay. We’ve talked about why you love this work and what’s challenging about it and concerns about immigration policy– oh! Here’s a fun one. Um. So you minored in, in art– in Theatre specifically, in theatre, as an undergrad.
Theatre-Drama studies, yeah.
And how, so how does art play into the work you do and maybe you can talk a little bit about this–
[laughs]
Awesome program you started.
Yes. Um. My connection with arts is way older, it’s been a thing my entire life. Um, it’s been part of my life when I basically trained at an art studio for about twelve years. Um, and that was my sanctuary, like, just going to that one art class every single week and just being able to do my art was like what got me through everything, um, the roughest of times.
[00:33:08]
And– The, it, you know, art, just in general, has been always a part of my life, whether it was in the fine arts space, um, or, like, singing and dancing, sometimes for, like, religious things or for, um, like just cultural events and stuff like that. Um– And when I got to high school, I was really involved in theatre as well. Um, I used to teach a little bit about that same art studio that I learned at, um, I volunteered for a little while there. Um, and yeah, when I got to undergrad, I minored in Theatre and Drama studies. Um, it was mostly actually like, theory and a little bit of dramaturgy rather than, like, actual acting, um, but I did some musicals in, like, and some of the clubs and I joined a dance team, um, where we basically had, like– we, we, we’d perform dances at different, like, events and stuff, and we had a final show every year where we would actually– Some of my friends and I would write our own, like, musicals basically. Um, and, and direct them and perform, like, choreograph them and everything and um, perform them. Um. It was really great, all of those, like, spaces and, in all of those times, I feel like– [pause] Art was always like a very big healing force. Um, I think it brought a lot of people together. I think that there is a lot of, um, stereotypes sometimes about performing arts specifically and, like, how they can be like– people can be very, like, dramatic and divisive and stuff, and it’s not entirely untrue. Um, but I think when you find the really nice spaces that are very welcoming and, like, you know, places to grow, um, it has immense healing power, uh. And that’s, that’s officially been recognized too, I think, um. In stuff, like, in social work, psychology. As, like, art therapies and um. Especially when it comes to things like trauma. It’s a, it’s a major, um, like, positive way of dealing with pain and transforming it because it doesn’t necessarily require you to use words. Um, and it’s very physical, so it engages the body which is really important in that work. Um, and so, when um– I mean, okay, so– I had basically, I was telling you a little bit right before we started this. Um. I had a little, like, dream of mine, um, which was, I, I hadn’t even thought about and hadn’t intentionally connected to, to this, um, until very recently. But there's, you know– Art has a big, like, role in, in our lives in general, right? Like, even though it’s often associated with children unless you’re, like, a professional. Um, and, you know. Sometimes it’ll be now associated with relaxation. But everything that’s cultural has to do with some kind of art. [clears throat] And some kind of expression. Whether it’s song and dance or, you know, culinary arts or um, like, just anything really.
Yeah, like the costumes that you wear for certain occasions, right? Wedding dresses–
[00:36:13]
Right, right. Exactly. All of that, like. If everything is, like– is, is an expression of art in some way. Or everything can be connected. So. When I, I remember, like, talking to one of my friends once and we were talking about how we– even though I was not, like, Catholic, I celebrate Christmas growing up because of my school. One of my friends got into it because of me! [laughs] Because she thought it was so much, like, fun and we would do different, like, things and also for our own culture, like I’m Hindu. So for our Hindu festivals, we incorporate the arts in a lot of things, whether it’s– I’m putting henna or whether it’s, um, we have like a colorful thing called rangoli where you put it, um, it’s like colorful sand basically. You make these elaborate designs. And many other way– Things, too, um, so– The arts are really big part of, I think, of all these kind of celebrations, so I would, used to think, like, when I was in Toronto, and– Learning all about, like, essentially in, in, I, I forget if it’s Canada or Ontario specifically. Um, but they’ve had multiculturalism as a policy since the ‘60s. Um, and they have actually, it’s been very reflected, especially in the theatre scene, um. First by First Nations folks and, um, also then by the Black community and then also by other, like, immigrant groups. So, like, kind of progressively and, um, has been a major part of that, um, kind of looking at that and some of the other, like, they have big festivals sometimes. They have this one, um, in, they have basically all the different organizations from different parts of the world, like, different cultural groups would come together and they used to do an event where they had, um, like, pavilions from different countries and you then you can kind of just go and, like, it’s hosted by the people from the countries so, like, whatever they wanna share and whatever they wanna showcase could kind of be something that you can experience, um. And it was just like, really cool. It was really fun. I feel like I learned a lot from it. Um, I– I used to think about, like, what if we use something like that for, like, the arts and use that– a tool like learning about different cultures. Um, you know, having that as, like, the thing that brings people together, whether it’s for just arts for arts for sake or arts for mental health, kind of mindfulness sake? Um, and also for, um, “Let’s learn about this culture by, like, this festival’s coming up for them” or whatever, or like, “this is something that’s really important in X Y Z culture.” Um, and using that as a space for communities to, like, really learn about each other. ‘Cause I think that’s the difference between what we’ll often call “diversity” and multiculturalism? Where one is kind of the coexistence of folks and the other is kind of a celebration, in my mind. Um, so celebrating and learning about oth– Different groups, I think is, um, something that art can actually help people do. Um, because of its power to connect! And that power to connect is the basis of Creative Connections! Um. At the Reformed Church, which is that program that we were talking about that we came up with.
[00:39:17]
Um, and that program is, you know, a very small, like, pilot kind of form, um, of all these ideas. But basically, it came out of this idea, um– That art is healing, um, and it’s something that people will naturally lean on! So when we had been doing our walk-a-thon as a fundraiser for the Reformed Church, we had some people come and uh, well. We basically, we couldn’t sing as we normally would sing at the fundraiser because of COVID. It’s not safe. So we actually asked people to bring in songs? Um, or like, send, share any kind of music that was meaningful to them. So our clients shared music. They also shared stories, like, “This song was when that– I listened to when I was, um, you know, in um– In a detention center and away from my family. Um. And it gave me hope, or it reminded me of them!” Or, um, you know, “this song is really special to me because, like, it reminds me of my child.” Um, so it– different things like that. It was really powerful and really beautiful just to see how people have naturally used music, um, as a way of connecting themselves to others in their lives, or just to hope, the emotion itself. Um, so, looking at that kind of healing power, um. We thought about, like, okay, well– Creative Connections, or I guess– It was just the arts program at the time. But creating an arts program where we can have people, like, actually engaging in artistic endeavors. Um, there were a lot of different ideas for what it would look like. It was like, should it be like an open mic type of situation? Should it be more learning? Um, and we, you know, used client– client feedback to put– to put that together and create a space where it’s more focused on learning. More, um, focused on, like, teaching different arts skills? Um, and I think it’s really important right now during this pandemic because people are very isolated of course. Um, and there’s just, it’s, it’s just– Everything sucks right now! [laughs] The world we live in! Um, it’s distressing! It’s very, very stressful. It’s very distressing. So having a space for people to come and just engage in art, um. I try to put mindfulness twists on things sometimes. Uh, and like, you know, have them, have people learn about how they can use art to relax and to heal? That has kind of been the focus and, like, what we’ve been trying to do with this program. And, I mean it seems like there have been a lot of really positive responses? Um, some people have felt like it, you know, they learn like, “Oh, wow, this can be very relaxing just, like, just doing art can be a way to relax when you’re very stressed.” Um, and some people have felt like, “Okay, well, you know, I have, like, I have really nothing else, like, to do that’s like, fun, so this is like a nice time to just come together with other people, um, and learn something new!”
[00:42:20]
Um, and others have, like, kind of drawn upon their childhood and felt like, “Oh, wow, I haven’t done this since I was a little kid! But, like, this is really nice! Really enjoyable!” Um, so, I think that we often think about healing as, um, you know, this big term, um, and what we’re doing is not art therapy exactly. It’s really just about– capitalizing on the inherent healing power of art. Um, but, I think that we, you know, when we try and think about, like, processing things? Enjoyment and relaxation are a big part of that. Like, just being able to engage yourself physically and like drawing something, painting something, making something out of clay. Um, or the act of creating something itself. I think it’s very healing. Um, and being able to explore something without– You know, having to dwell on some, like, talking about something exactly, that’s very negative. It’s– it’s a very helpful place to be when you’re trying to heal as well.
I’m also hearing in what you’re saying, um, with sort of is, like, full circle for your interview, um, that some people come, like, think art is a sort of tool for community? That it can be like–
[overlapping] Yeah.
[overlapping, inaudible] experience, that it brings people together around an activity?
Absolutely.
And, um, so many of these interviews I am doing, the idea of loneliness comes up a lot.
Yeah. I– I feel like one of my professors that talked about, like, addiction, right? And they were saying the opposite of addiction is connection. Um, and I think that’s true for any, any of these, many of these kind, like, just, just distress and, and also like, mental health issues in general. Um, we live in a very disconnected world. Even before the pandemic, we live in a very disconnected world, um, and creating community, creating spaces for people to come together, um, is, I think, the major key to, like, combatting a lot of the more negative aspects of our world and a lot of the pain that people have experienced. Again like, like I said– I think the pain really is lying at the door of a lot of the negative things in the world. Um, and the ways that people might be acting and things like that. Um, so when you bring something that’s healing like art, but also not in a, “let’s poke at it, poke your feelings with a stick!” Um, kind of way, it’s more soft and it’s more like “let’s create something together.” Um, I think it’s kind of a– a softer way of– of healing that people are often more open to? Um, and it’s a way of building connections that I think are very sacred and very, like, special. It’s on a different level, um, rather than, you know, other kinds of bonds we might make.
Yeah. There’s something intimate about making art together, sharing art.
Yeah.
‘Cause it’s coming from, right?
Yeah!
Like that space inside of you, that creative space. Um, okay what did I not– I have one thing I wanna say, but I, I’m gonna turn it off soon because they don’t wanna hear my voice. But what did I not ask, or, what, if you were interviewing yourself what would you have asked? What have we not talked about that should be, should be documented?
[00:45:28]
Hm– [pause] [sigh] I don’t know. I mean. [sigh] I think– I think that, kinda just continuing almost in that sense, in that vein of like– I think that there is, the arts and, like, social work or healing– are there, there’s a lot of overlap that’s not acknowledged.
Mhm.
Um. And it doesn’t really make sense. [laughs] Um. When you really think about why, why there’s such a big disconnect, um, when you think about them. Because– and also in building community tools. I mean, the arts are, I think these kinds of programs are tough sometimes too, to start? I would imagine. Because we live in, like, a very [chuckles] capitalist society where we’re all about, like, what’s the money making thing? And arts are not often one of them. Um, and you know, the, the programs may not always be as, like, successful or return things in the same way as other things. Um, I think that there is a very, very big benefit to having these kinds of programs? And I think it takes special people and places to see that in many ways? Like, I’m really, like, happy about the fact that in, like, our church we’ve gotten a lot of support. Um, even when it was struggling a bit [chuckles] in the beginning to get, like, take off. Um, because, it really does take, like, some support and some commitment, but it yields a lot of high quality, I think, results in terms of, um, like, just dealing with people’s– Like, helping people deal with their own emotions and distress. Um, it’s, you know, usually if, people, you ask, if you tell people, um– In talking about mental health, it’s such a stigmatized thing across the world, um, but this is like a, kind of a way of more softly bringing that in? Uh, which I think that is a big part of what resettleation should do? With these, but with different populations, like, to come in that they serve. Um, I don’t– I think there needs to be a very big focus on mental health, um, in all that we do? And ways of finding healing, but ways that our clients would–
[computer typing]
be happy to engage in. Or that, you know, we’re able to get people [audio garbles, inaudible] way. Um.
Hm.
Yeah, I mean, that’s– Here, I can’t think of many, many, anything else. Like, I don’t know if there’s anything else you wanna know about the work or about me, but.
Well, it’s interesting when you– I love the like, Venn diagram–
[cough, overlapping]
[overlapping, inaudible] of social work and art. And it also–
Yeah.
makes me wonder, I say this– I. ‘Cause we’re in a church, right?
Yeah.
[00:48:11]
Which is like– And, I don’t know what you, what religion you practice now, but, it’s not necessarily a religion we even practice. And I feel like– Spirituality, we often understand as like “yeah, it doesn’t make money. Yeah, it doesn’t have to have physical results.” Like, “Yeah, it’s doing some,” we understand the intrinsic value often of what church spaces do?
Mhm.
And I, and there’s something interesting about, like, that also as a triangulation of, like–
Yeah.
Reaching that part of people that art connects social work and mental health is trying to get at. So.
Yeah, no it’s true! I mean, it’s, it’s not a religion that I practice, but, um, I think that– I really think all that religion, at the end of the day, are the same. [laughs] But, they really are! But! [laughs] Um, yeah! I think we see a lot of value to religious spaces often? Um, you know. In [inaudible] people have different orientations. But there are a lot of people who, even if they don’t see a monetary benefit, will still see a value in church faith, church spaces. Um, and, you know, there’s a lot of power that faith-based organizations have in– in helping other people. I mean, especially in the US. That– that’s been historically the way that people got help. It wasn’t government! [laughs] It was, um, traditionally from places like churches! Um, and other houses of worship. So. Um. And, you know, they have in many communities– like religion plays a big role, um, in just like keeping people connected to each other. Um. in immigrant communities, often faith-based businesses, like, help you keep connected to your culture? Um, I think that a lot of times that, even after time, your religion and your culture can get conflated? If you’re from an immigrant community sometimes? Because you’re holding on to whatever institutions you can find that can remind you of home. Um, but it– that’s always been their role, right? Bringing people together, bringing like, if, the, the whole thing has been– Like, talking about the community. Um, and so–
[computer typing]
Of course there are also parts of religion, organized religion that can kind of drive people apart? Which is thankfully not– The scene that’s going on here? [laughs] At Interfaith RISE, um, but that’s the thing, like, when you have a focus on community, you can see the value in all these different things. I mean, even, forget art, like, food! Right? Food is a major thing that connects people. And I mean, you can argue that that’s definitely part of art for sure, um, these are all things that kind of build community and they’re also both things that are part of all the faith. Like, traditions, often, in some capacity or another.
And culture. Often, when I do, um, stopping the video. Often when I do story circles, oh I just stopped my own video. Um.
[laughs]
I, one of, one of–
[00:51:04]