Somerset resident Laura Foley describes growing up in Massachusetts and New Jersey. She speaks straightforwardly about the abusive relationships that have been a part of her life.
“And he was yelling at her. And she was, at that time, she was, like, two and a half, maybe two. And I said, ‘Look,’ I said, ‘I don’t care what you do to me, it doesn’t matter.’ I said, ‘But you will not yell at my daughter. If she wants juice, I will get my daughter juice.’”
ANNOTATIONS
Annotations coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by John Keller
Interview conducted remotely
October 29, 2020
Transcription by Ryan Neely
0:00:00.0
OK, great, so, um, this is John Keller with coLAB Arts. Um, I– the date today is October 29th, 2020. I am located at my home in New Brunswick, New Jersey and we are on a Zoom call right now and the oral history narrator for today is:
Laura Foley.
Great. And Laura, if you could just spell your name for us, for the record.
It’s L–A–U–R–A F–O–L–EY.
Great. And where are you located right now?
I’m located in Somerset, New Jersey.
Excellent. Um, thank you again for doing this interview and, as I mentioned, we’ll just kinda start at the beginning. So, where were you born?
Um, I was born in Middlesex, New Jersey.
Ok, do you mind sharing us your– the year you were born?
Um, I was– I was born in 1966. So, a long time ago. [laughs]
[laughs] Um, when you were born, what was your family structure, like, at that time? When you were living in Middlesex.
Um, it was my mom and my dad, myself and my three brothers.
Mhm, and where– so you’re– are you the youngest, are they any other siblings after you or–
Um, there’s one more sibling after me. My sister, she’s fourteen years younger than me so, I’m 53 she just turned, uh, 40.
Mhm. And when you were, uh, when you were born was your family living in a home, were they living in a house? Or an apartment? Or–
Oh sorry, yes. We lived– we lived in a house in uh– in uh– um, in Middlesex. I believe we moved to Hillsborough shortly there– or maybe actually, I was born at the Middlesex hospital, but I believe it was probably Hillsborough, closer to Hillsborough where we lived because, um, in actuality I had a friend I went to high school and, uh, her mom used to tell me stories about how she had a neighbor that was talking to her about how their next door neighbor just had a baby and the girl was named Laura and that was me. And even though I didn’t know her family at that time, like, her mom always talks about “Remember when you were born?”
Funny. Um, what was your, uh, kind of, what was your family structure beyond your, kind of, immediate nuclear family? Did you have extended family? Grandparents who were part of your early childhood?
Um, yes from what I– I don’t remember, like, I remember pretty from much from, like, maybe five on, most of what was before then, like, my dad either told me or my stepmom tells me, fills me in on a lot of stuff. But I know my grandmother, um, was very present in our lives. My maternal grandmother, and, um, my paternal grandmother and grandfather were also very big in our lives too, but I believe at that time that my paternal grandparents were living in Florida and then, um, my grandmother eventually was living– might’ve always been living there, but Massachusetts.
0:03:07.5
Ok, where was your family, um, from prior to them– prior to, kind of, your family being in New Jersey? Were they always in New Jersey or did they, had they come from– migrated from somewhere else?
Um, they weren’t always from New Jersey, but, um, my dad was in the Navy so in the very beginning it was, like, that my, uh, Mom and Dad had traveled around a little bit and then, um, eventually my dad, uh, got out of the Navy and, um, he went back to school and, uh, took some business classes at Dartmouth and, um, then they moved to New Jersey. But, um, from what I understand, like, when I was very young growing up, my mom, um, she had been married prior, which was not something that we knew about until I was probably 15 or 16. He was very abusive, and she had two children with him and his, um, his mom came from a lot of money, my grandmother, my maternal grandmother had quite a bit of money that was leftover from her sister and, uh, so it was just from what I understand, his mother never really liked my mom, thought she was a little less than and wasn’t, you know, good enough for her son.
0:04:19.2
Whatever the situation, he was very abusive, so she winded up leaving her two kids with them and she left. And then she winded up eventually divorcing him and, um, she had a breakdown and divorced him left and then met my dad. So, when my dad was in the Navy, you know, it became a lot, I believe, for my mom to be alone and to, you know, kinda, you know, take care of the, I believe my brother was the one that was, my oldest brother I think, she– they might’ve just had one or two children by then and so eventually my dad left the Navy, to stay home and, you know, he went back to school and whatnot and then she had two more children and then course she had me. So, from– so I think that answers everything.
Yea, I think– that’s great, um, that’s some great detail. Um, so you– you are the– you are the fourth child in the family?
I’m the fourth child, yes.
And then, you told me that you have a younger sister who’s fourteen years younger, what is the age distance or gaps with your older brothers?
Um, I’m not a 100% sure on that because I know that, like, my oldest brother, like, between my mom and dad, he’s in his 60s. Or he’s maybe, like, 64, or 65, maybe not even. But somewhere around there, but I know that my brother and sister were just, you know, maybe two or three years older than him. Somewhere around there if I’m correct.
So that would be your, your half brother and sister?
Yes.
From your mom’s first marriage.
Yes.
Did you have any sort of relationship with– with them when you were growing up?
Um actually, it was– it was strange, but we didn’t– I, like I said, I didn’t know about them until I was 16. My oldest brother actually had to go to England for his job and so he went to get a passport and it said okay there were seven people in the family and he said, “No, you’re wrong, there’s only five of us.” And they said, “Well no, there’s seven.” And he was pretty, you know, adamant and they said, “No, you know, there’s seven.” So of course he asked my grandmother who panicked and she was old school, so she said, “Ask your dad.”
0:06:25.9
And, uh, so he went and asked my dad and, uh, he said yeah that there was– he sat us all down and explained that there were, you know, two other children from, you know, my mom, you know, back earlier on that she was married before. And uh, so– Um, in the ‘80s when my grandmother, um, was in a nursing home, they actually reached out to her and they started writing to her and I used to go and visit her and I would read some of her mail, so at one point, um, they wrote to her and I said, “Would you mind if I wrote to them?” And she said, “Well, you know, now, so it, you know,” she said that she didn’t have a problem with us writing to them. So I wrote, and my sister had said, “Do you think your grandmother would be upset if we came to visit her?” And I said, “No.” And I had actually heard of a story my sister had told me where, when we moved to Massachusetts at one– my parents had, um, divorced when I was 3 and so we moved, um, to Massachusetts to be closer to my grandmother and my dad stayed in New Jersey and, um, he came to visit us twice a month. He would drive from New Jersey down to Massachusetts, spend a day with us, and then drive home in the nighttime. And, um, so he was very active but, so we– she had said that at one point in time when we were living at this house in, uh, Lexington, I was maybe, I want to say, like, 5, maybe 6, or maybe not even that old, that they came to visit. Her and my brother, their grandmother actually brought them to the house, came to visit and they had flowers for my mom and my grandmother opened the door and panicked because we were all inside and we didn’t know about them, so she said, “You can’t be here,” and she shut the door.
0:08:05.1
And then, they went back to the car, crying and they, you know, were upset and then their grandmother of course came to the door, “Well, they’re coming in.” So, I don’t remember this, I don’t remember where I was but, um, my brother, supposedly my oldest brother really liked them, he was kind of a, you know, followed them around a little bit, he was very curious. But, what they had told me was that, afterwards when they wanted to keep in contact, that my grandmother had said no because my oldest brother was in counseling cause he really believed that he had a brother and sister and they were trying to tell him that he didn’t. So, that kind of just, the whole thing ended ‘cause my mom just didn’t want, you know, anyone to know that she had a, you know, a prior life or anything I guess to happen from her prior life. So, um–
What do you think that– that– that was– what do you think, kind of, motivated that for your mom? What do you think– if you, kind of, looking back on that, what do you think your mom’s, kind of, point of view about that was? How did you feel about that?
Um, knowing about it now, it was– for me it was, you know, hard to believe. But I– but as I got older I kind of understood it because my grandmother, um, I never met my grandfather on my maternal, you know, mother’s, on my mother’s side. But, um, supposedly he was a very abusive man and had been very abusive to my grandmother and for a while my mom was not allowed to see her father and then, um, from what I understand, once my mom and dad got married, my dad kinda, you know, um, mended fences in a sense with, you know, her mom and little by little I think she was able to then go visit her father and they kinda had bridged some gaps.
0:09:45.4
And, um, so I think that, you know, when my mom was in her abusive relationship maybe that she was just terrified, you know, maybe he would come back or– you know, because his mother was, you know, very domineering, maybe she was afraid of that kind of, that whole thing, “I’m still less than. She doesn’t like me.” You know, “I’m not worthy enough.” Whatever it was. And my mom drank very heavily too. And she suffered from a lot of depression and, from what I understand, on my– from my stepmom is that there were times where they actually gave my mom electric shock treatment to, um, to help her. You know, go through the things that she was going through. So, my grandmother, you know, was always there, anything we needed, you know, she paid for anything we needed. She paid for all of us to go to college. She bought all our school clothes, our school books, our dental bills, whatever, you know, we needed. My first– my first car. That kind of thing. Like she, you know, would buy you things that you needed. If you wanted a record player, well that wasn’t important, but if you needed new clothes or something then yeah, she. So, um, I think it was just a lot for her to have to deal with all that and, um, I know that my brother and sister did come sometime, it was in the ‘80s– I want to say it was, like, maybe, um, ’89 or maybe 1990 at the latest, that they asked if they could come visit. I talked to my grandmother, she said yes.
0:11:06.8
Um, I– I met with them. We all talked and, you know, we had a great time. I embraced them as my brother and sister, but my, uh, other brothers didn’t embrace that they were kinda, like, you know, “They’re not our brother and sister, we’ve never met them before,” and, you know, um, that, you know, my grandmother had a bit, like I said, had a bit of money because, um, her sister had, um, when she passed away left everything to my, uh, to my grandmother and actually my, um, my aunt, I guess she would be my aunt, but my grandmother’s sister worked for the man who invented the steel plow. So, when he passed away he left her a sum of money and things and then she gave it to my grandmother. So my grandmother was very good with the, “Don’t need a man I can do this all myself,” whatever. And, um, so, you know, my brother’s– when it came to visit me, like I said, a wonderful time. My brothers don't, um, acknowledge that– I have one brother he’s, like, he’s very open but he’s only met them once. And, uh, when my grandmother passed away I actually called him and I invited them to the funeral which kinda made everybody– my one brother he, he wasn’t upset by that, he was, like, “Oh, okay, he met them.” My dad was, like, “It’s great to see you again,” whatever, and he talked to my stepmom, talked to them, but my other two brothers were, and my sister was very young. So, she was maybe 7 or 8, so it didn’t really, I think, hit her, you know, it’s hard but, um, my other two brothers they were just, like, you know, they didn’t want to talk. They– they thought it was wrong, you know, having them there. “Oh, they’re just here for the money, to get their cut,” whatever, you know. But, you know, they still, you know, got to see everybody and I would keep a relationship with them, in all honesty, but we wrote back once or twice and then when I was in my bad relationship, I didn’t have a phone, like, a house phone, believe it or not, for, like, five years. So, it was, like, they sent a card to my parents, and then I sent a card back, but we somehow lost contact, I didn’t get a response back.
0:13:02.8
I don’t know whether my sister didn’t get it or not so, I probably haven’t heard from them since, like, 1990 and they’re not on Facebook, they’re not on social media, if they are, I think I would’ve found them, but I haven’t so, I’m just– I hope that they’re well and that, you know, they’re still here and that everything’s going well.
Um, uh, when you were your– your parents divorced pretty– when you were pretty young so you say 3 when you moved to Massachusetts? Um, living with your grandmother, do you remember, you were living with your grandmother in her home?
No, actually, my– we were living in a house. My grandmother lived in Arlington, we lived in Lexington and she actually, um, helped us, helped my mom get a house.
Okay.
And so we lived with my mom and my grandmother lived maybe twenty minutes, fifteen minutes away.
Okay, do you have any memories of starting school when you were– when you were a kid? Did you start school in Lexington?
I did, um, actually. I, um, I remember, you know, school was good. It was– to me it was kind of diverse. Which is very different than, like, Hillsborough because it was definitely not diverse and, um, whole different crowd of people there. But, uh, yeah I– I have some vague recollections of, you know, some friends that I had in school and I still, like, remember what they look like. I remember their name from, like, kindergarten and First grade. Um, which is, you know, which I– which I’m happy about. Um, I had a couple of friends that, uh, you know, lived in the neighborhood and one day, you know, the four of us were friends and the next day we hated each other and the next day we were friends, kinda thing. And, um, there was a woman who, uh, lived across the street that was probably nine years older than me, but she kinda became, like, a big sister to me. So I– her parents would invite me over all the time for dinner when they would go on vacation. Like, they’d take me along, you know. But, um, so school was good in some ways because I did have some friends but, like, I must say, like, my oldest brother, he was, like, um, you know, in, um, I think, like, maybe Seventh, Eighth, Ninth grade at that time, so he was older. My other two brothers were, like, one is, like, two years older and one is, like–I mean four years older than me. So for a while there we were in the same school, which was very beneficial because they were on the football team, they were on the baseball team and they did, you know, they had tons of friends.
0:15:25.1
And for me I was kind of, like, the third wheel. So, like, all my friends, their brothers were friends with my brothers. And they all went, you know, and hung out at school and they did the football together and the baseball. And they, you know, whenever my brothers needed a ride somewhere, like, their parents, you know, took care of all that. You know, cause, and, uh, so that in a sense was great, but for me I didn’t have as many friends. And because, you know, I couldn’t go everywhere that, um, they did, I kind of stayed home a lot because I wasn’t allowed to just, you know, I wasn’t old enough to go wander down the street to my friend’s house or to the neighborhood or whatever, you know. And, um, so it, you know, it made a for a– and then, the relationship I had with my brother it just kinda, I felt, like, I was different from very early on and, um, so kids knew that in school. So it was, like, yes I had my immediate friends in the neighborhood, but as for other kids in school, I remember they weren’t as nice. You know, as far back as I can remember. You would think that, you know, it wouldn’t in First or Second grade but, believe it or not, it actually does. It can start, I mean that early with people who they see there’s something different about you and it’s, like, they just, it’s, like, a target. You know, they zone in on that. So, I remember some of the teachers and some of the kids I was friends with, but, you know, again there was a couple of people that were really mean, but I know one girl was, like, really mean to me all the time on the playground whatever. Always kinda shoving me around and I laugh about it now because I still remember her name, but I asked my older brother, you know, “What should I do? She’s always picking on me, you know, and beating me up and whatnot, what do I do?” He said, “Well, punch her back.”
0:17:04.1
And I said, “Well, I can’t do that,” and he said, “Well, I can’t help ya. I don’t know what you want me to do.” You know, and he kinda walks away. So my other brothers were like, “Alright, we got this.” And they called their friends together, you know, and they pushed her up against the side of the school. And, they, you know, they said, “Stay away from her,” you know, “we’re watching you.” And then, um, sure enough, you know, every time I would go down the hallway and she was in the same hallway she’d go far away to the other side and I know she was mad, but that kind of ended one piece of the whole thing.
What was it, you had– you had expressed, um, something about, like, that– that idea of there being a difference between you and your brother. Or you being– being different in some way. Um, was that between– within your family? Or– or was that really just outside of your family unit that you– you felt that way?
I think, um, I think it was in the family unit and it was, like, outside of the family unit. You know. I definitely knew that, like, outside, you know, that there were kids. Again, like, some kids that lived close by that I was good friends, you know, and but people at school, no I wasn’t as good friends with. But I think, you know, too, I felt a little bit different because what was happening to me wasn’t something I had shared with anybody so my other two brothers, like, you know, as far as I know, they weren’t aware of it. And, um, you know, and, and, my brothers are brothers, you know, so, they’re very good at, like, you know, when you’re young and you’re coming from upstairs down the stairs and throwing– they were– have memories of doing little things, like, just throwing a paper cup at me. And my crying. And, and to this day they’ll still– “Yea remember when we threw a paper cup at her and she cried?” And it– you know, but, little things like that, like, yeah, there was some joking and teasing going on. But, you know, we– we would pick on each other all the time but, it was more of a, I think, you know, as good as we got along I think I just knew that there was something there that, you know, they weren’t going with. And my older brother, you know, once my parents got divorced and, like, we moved to Lexington. Then my older brother, he was, like, I think, 14 at the time, so he was kind of on that, was left in charge now.
0:19:10.4
So, it was kind of, like, if my mom had at times– would say to him, from what I– stories that I’ve heard. My mom would say to them all, “I need something to drink, I can’t drive. So I need you to go to, you know, get me something from the liquor store.” So he would drive to the liquor store and he was very tall, so he never was carded. Like, they never asked for his driver’s license and he was, like, 15, driving the car down the street, you know, to wherever, to get whatever my mom needed. So I think he had a lot of anger and resentment about that. You know, she would say, “You don’t want me to drive, do ya? You know, I might have an accident or something.” So I think, you know, part of that really bothered him and so he kinda would, you know, take it out on us. And I remember one time, um, it was, like, we probably had, like, maybe a foot and a half of snow. ‘Cause we used to get a lot of snow when we were kids. And we were, like, down in the basement and it was, like, a whole renovated basement and there are, like, the windows that would, like, kinda, like, open, um, I think it was, they would open out. But they were set down, so when you were outside you could see the window was set down. And, uh, one time one of my brothers was in his PJs, and my brother’s, like, “Wouldn’t it be fun to pretend that, you know, you were this kid in the Arctic? And that, you know, live in, like, in an igloo,” because all the snow was kind of around the little, uh, window. And my brother was, like, “Yeah, that’s fun.” And he didn’t, he didn’t know. He was, I don’t know maybe, um, like, 8 at the time or something. So he climbed out the window in his PJs, and my brother shut the window and then was waving at him. And saying, you know, “Have fun! Just for a couple of minutes.” And, like, my brother tried to get in and he couldn’t get in.
0:20:45.1
And I admit, I was in hysterics laughing cause I thought for once it’s not me. That they’re not, it’s not something happening to me. So I thought it was funny that while he’s getting something, you know, and we always laugh with it now, we call him the Arctic boy, that was, you know, stuck out in the snow. But, uh, and, you know, and then my brother opened the window and let him in and then he was all mad. But there were, like, little things that my brother did, I mean to all of us. Probably worse to me than to them, but just little things cause he was in control and he was– yeah. And I guess he just, you know, he didn’t know better and my mom just, you know, had enough on her plate, so, dealing with certain things wasn’t, you know, something she wanted to do. So, in a sense, they would go play with their friends, hang out, cause they were older. They could swim, so they’d go to the neighbor’s pool. I was, I was real short, it was, like, three [feet] and, like, thirty-three inches. Like, they thought I was never gonna grow at one point in time. So, it was like I couldn’t go in the pool, I couldn’t swim, and, you know, I couldn’t, I wasn’t old enough, you know. And so, it was like, yeah so there was that difference, they were always going out and having fun and I wasn’t. You know. I was stuck at home. You know. And if my brother was out hanging out with his friends, that was one thing, but if he wasn’t, then he was home with me. So, it was kind of, like, so I knew there was, like, a difference there.
What was some of the treatment that you were receiving from your– from your brother?
Um, well, uh, one of the things that, you know, I don’t– I would love to say that I remember everything and that’d be easy just to kinda remem– and my feeling is to remember everything and to kind of just be able to push forward and say, “Okay I remember it and it’s over with and let’s go.” But uh, some of the things that I remembered were, like, he, he’d, like, to– we had a LEGO set, so he’d love to play LEGOs and, you know, I don’t know where my mom was, she might’ve been working, I don’t know if she was sleeping, but, you know, she’d be upstairs, we’d be down in the basement. He’d be, like, “Oh, you want to play with the LEGOs.”
0:22:36.8
And I was like, “Yeah, sure.” And he always wanted to play doctor with the LEGOs. So, and he, you know, he, uh, liked to take off his cl– you know, some of his clothes and then just say, “Oh here, put LEGOs here. Put LEGOs there and pretend that, you know, we were playing, uh, doctor.” And so, I remember, you know, a couple times with that. You never got in trouble and I don’t think anybody knew and I don’t remember, you know, my other brothers coming home or they were out, you know, doing whatever and, um, a couple of times, you know, my brother would, uh, you know, come visit me in the middle of the night and it got to a point where– at one point in time, I don’t remember exactly whether I was angry or what happened. I slept upstairs, um, you know, in one room, my two brothers were in the other room and then my oldest brother slept downstairs in a separate bedroom and, um, I remember just being angry at the whole situation and kinda disgusted so I, uh, you know, woke up my mom and she, you know, came out and she was mad that I had woken her up. And, uh, so she called my brother upstairs and she was kinda yelling at him in the hallway, “Did you do this?” And he said, “I didn’t do that, she’s lying.” And then my stepmom was, like, “Wow, you woke me up for this, he said he didn’t do it, just go back to bed.” And so I was, like, “Okay,” and I just went back to bed.
0:23:50.9
And that was kind of the end of the conversation and that, I don’t remember if the abuse ended after that or not, but I know that that’s kind of how she handled it, so I just was, like, okay, I guess that’s just things you don’t talk about. And then it was like, every Sunday, you know, we got dressed in the best dresses and suits we, you know, my grandmother could buy and she took us to church with her and we just went to church and everything was normal. You know, my grandmother would go to church, take us to church. I don’t remember if my mom ever went to church or not. She may have, but it was kinda, like, you know, this other life afterwards. We’d go to church and everyone, “Oh, look at the cute grandkids.” You know, blah blah blah, and, you know, then you go back home and life just continues on like it was before.
Did you ever, um, you expressed that– that moment to your mom during that time, did you ever express that it to anyone else or anyone else in the family?
Um, I didn’t for a long time. I– I didn’t discuss with anybody in the family and then, um, when my parents, uh, you know, my mom, she passed away when I was 9. And, um, she had actually, um, I hadn’t told anybody about it for a very long, for a very long time. Um, on the day that my mom had passed away actually, my dad came to visit us and he, uh, was gonna take me and my brothers out. You know, for bowling and we were gonna go to McDonald’s or something and spend the day, and my mom had been sick for quite some time. A lot of vomiting and, um, just not, you know, feeling well and my dad had spoken to her about being sick and she said, “Yeah, I’m going to the doctor, not to worry, I’m going to the doctor,” and she was kinda just sitting at the dining– at the kitchen table, like, in her bathrobe just drinking some coke. And saying, “Yeah, on Wednesday I’m going.” And he said, “Alright.”
0:25:33.3
We went out, got something to eat, and we went bowling and my dad, I– I think, from what I understand wanted to take us out and do more stuff but we had wanted to come home first, just to see my mom, and see how things were going and when, uh, my brothers and I when we came back, like, into the house, my mom had died at the kitchen table. So sometime after we left, you know, she had passed away.
And, um, so then my dad then, a couple of months later said, you know, I’ve been dating someone and, uh, you know, we’re gonna get married and so he married and we, you know, my grandma’s, like, “No, you know, you don’t have to get a house, I’ll just, I’ll sell my place and we’ll move into the house in Lexington.” And my dad was, like, “No, the–”, you know, cause my– at that time my grandmother was around 76 maybe, 77 and she was like, “No, I’m gonna take the four kids–I’m gonna take care of the four kids.”
Your dad’s mom? This is your dad’s–
My mom’s mom.
Your mom’s mom.
Yea. She said, “No, I’ll take care of everybody,”you know. And my dad was like, “No, I want you to, you know, meet my girlfriend first and see what you think,” and, you know, we– we– I hit it off with my stepmom really well. My two– two of my older brothers did, my oldest brother, he was still kinda mad about the whole thing. ‘Cause he was used to being in charge. So now that was kind of being taken away. I think, so, I think part of that was very hard for him and, uh, my grandmother loved my stepmom and so, you know, my parents, you know, my stepmom and dad they got married in New York and, uh, we moved to New Jersey and–
And how old were you then?
I was, by then I was nine and a half.
Nine and a half. So the– the moment when you had– had expressed that to your mom, that was to your mom before she passed away?
Yes.
And her– shortly after that she passed away?
I’m not sure, I don’t. In all honesty, I don’t remember how old I was when I mentioned it to her or how long after she had passed away, I just remember, you know, the conversation. And I don’t remember much that happened after then, but, um, I do know that at one point, as, um, as I got older, you know, I was in a relationship with [unintelligible] for eight years and, um, I left him, we went into a she– he was away on vacation visiting his parents in Mexico and so I had worked out with the Woman’s Resource Center that I was gonna go into a shelter while he was on vacation. So, I did that and I called and said, you know, “I’m ready.” And they said, “When is he due back?” And I said, “January,” and they said, “Okay, we’ll, we’ll see ya at the end of December.” And I was like, “Oh, God, I can’t do– wait ‘til, you know, another three weeks.” They said, “Because if someone’s knocking on the door saying ‘it’s my life now’ and they have nowhere to go we have to take them in. But, you can go to your parents’ house, you know, for three weeks. And, and it would be ok, so.”
0:28:10.1
Um, I went into the shelter and, you know, we went to court and I got a, um, I got a restraining order– oop sorry– I got a restraining order on him and I, uh, you know, we went to court and I said that, you know, he was an alcoholic and they did this whole testing on him and they had actually– he went to this place in, uh, Bound Brook, where they did an evaluation on him and the judge said, “If you would, like, give some information on his, you know, stability and his drinking and whatnot, you know, you can give them, answer any questions they might or fill them in.” And, um, the place that he was at, they didn’t need anything from me, they said, “No, we don’t want any information from you, we’re good,” you know, they’re a little rude and I was like, “Alright.” I didn’t– they didn’t want to hear from me. And, um, when everything was said and done we went back to court, they said that even though he– he had been drinking since he was 15, and he was now, like, 33, they called him a social drinker. And I said, “Wow,” you know, so in other words he only drinks on the weekends. I said, “But in my case, he drinks, you know, Sunday through Sunday.” So that’s, you know, and who drinks from the age 15 and they’re told they’re a social drinker. But– so at any rate we went through all that and, um, he began to get weekend visits with him. Where I would drop her off and, um, he would spend some time with her and, uh, and then, you know, I would pick her up later on, like, I would go down to the train station and, um, you know, I would drop her off and then, um, I would take, like, a train back home or I would hang out in Somerville or whatever and then, you know, we’d take the train back or taxi back to, you know, where we lived. ‘Cause at the time I didn’t have a car. And, um, I think I’m– can you, I hate to say, can you say your question again though? Oh when did I–
So, yeah, I– I think that part of what we were, uh, um, uh, uh– we were right around the time when your dad got remarried too, right? So your dad got remarried, so your mom had passed away and then that was– she was, the, the person that you had expressed what was happening between you and your brother. And then your dad got remarried; did you move back to New Jersey?
We moved to New Jersey, ‘cause was my dad was already living in, like, a studio apartment in New Jersey. So, we moved to Hillsborough, to Belle Mead actually. And, uh, it wasn’t until, um, my daughter, she may have been, like, 3 and half or 4– and, um, we were in transitional housing at the time and, uh, she had made a comment to me one night, um, about how, you know, I went to see Poppy, which is what she called her dad.
0:30:50.6
And she said, you know, that, um, “He had a bottle and he tried to push it, you know, inside my pee pee, but I pushed him away and I told him no.” And so I was, like, okay, I called the shelter at, like, eleven o’ clock at night to say, “Is the counselor there?” You know, and they said, “No, is there something we can help you with.” And I said, “No, I’m good, you know, I don’t– no there’s nothing, don't worry about it.” And it took awhile but the next day we, you know, we started, I finally start talking to them about it and they said, okay, they would do an evaluation on her and I just got involved and then of course, um, my parents, you know, I was talking to my stepmom on the phone and she was, like, you know, I was keeping her abreast of most of the things that were going on and as we were talking about it, I said, you know, it was just something I should’ve known. And my stepmom’s a nurse, so she’s very, uh, bright on many things that you wish she wasn’t knowledgeable about. And, uh, she said, “So, what do you mean, you should’ve known?” And I said, “No, just that, you know, when something like that happens to your child you wish you had known or had been aware.” And she’s like, “But that’s not what you said,” and I’m like, “Yeah, no that’s, that’s what I meant.” And she’s, like, “No, that’s not what you said though.” And I’m, like, “No, but,” and then I started saying something else and I was digging myself a hole. And she finally just said, “No, but that’s not what you meant,” she goes, “And that’s not what you said.” She goes, “So, so what is it? You know, you can tell me.” And so I explained, you know, what had happened, and I said, but I’d really prefer you don’t tell my dad. And I said, I don’t want him to know, but this will just stay between us. And she was, like, “Okay,” she hung up the phone.
0:32:21.3
She called me back at work and said, “I told your dad,” she said, “it was,” as she said, “too big of a burden for me to keep to myself and I felt that your dad had a right to know.” So then, you know, my dad picked me up from work, he took me home, we talked and he said, “It wasn’t something I ever knew,” he said, “Your mom never shared that with me,” he said, “if I had known I would’ve stepped in, I would’ve done something,” he said, “But, you know, she never shared that with me, and, you know, so…” That– that was okay, you know, I get it, my mom’s going through so much. She, you know, didn’t tell anybody, she probably tried to block it out of her memory and just, you know, think of something else. But that was probably– my daughter was three and a half so, I was probably, maybe 34, going on 35. And then, um, eventually, you know, I talked to two of my brothers about it and my one brother was, like, “God, you know, if I had known,” he’s like, “anytime you were going out with our friends I would’ve taken you with us. You know, we would’ve gone somewhere, we would’ve done something,” he said, “I wouldn’t have left you at home.” And I said, “Well, there’s nothing you could’ve done. I mean, I couldn’t go anywhere, I wasn’t allowed. I was– I mean 5 or 6, you know, 7. I wasn’t old enough to– to travel, like, you guys were, you know, you guys were, like, 10 and 12 or whatever.” So, um, that was good between us. My other brother, well, you know, he said, “Oh, I– I didn’t know that. I– I had never heard anything.” And I said, “Yeah, you might not have,” I said, “because the conversation,” I said, “that we had with mom was out in the hallway.” You know, “in front of your bedroom and my bedroom.” And uh, he said, “Yeah, well I never, I didn’t know any of that, you know,” He said, “I don’t know why you always look back,” he said, “There was nothing good about our childhood, it’s better just to move forward.” And so, I was, I– you know, so he knows and my sister-in-law was very big on the, “Well, gee, now you do know. Let’s work on yourself and you have it out there on social media, what if ever his kids were to go on something and they saw something.” You know, “What would you say to them, what would you do? Because, you haven’t talked to your brother about it. He’s got kids, you know, what if they read something, you know?”
0:34:24.8
And then, someone told me one day, “but, you know, what, it wasn’t your fault so it doesn’t matter on that end, you shouldn’t have to worry about what would you do because it wasn’t your fault.” And I never really thought about it in that sense. Like, I knew it wasn’t my fault, but I never thought, “Well, gee, if the stuff starts hitting the fan that, you know, oh my God it’s my fault and I, you know, from the beginning–” And it really wasn’t, so I finally just said, “You know, I’m just gonna let it– let it ride on that end.” I did tell her I was doing the being brave thing, my brother didn’t, and I– we didn’t discuss it, but him and his wife we discussed and she was like, “Well, you know, it’s gonna be out there for people to see it.” I said, “Yeah, I know.” And she goes, “So you’re not worried that, you know, someone might see something or hear something.” And I said, “Well no, not really.” And she said, “Because, you know, you work for the non-profit and I’ve read your bio.” And I said, “Yeah, but–”
That was, that was a conversation you had with your brother’s wife?
Yes. So she was, you know, really, you know, and that– that’s just, you know, it’s not good, you know. “I’ve read your bio,” and I said, “Yeah, I’ve read my bio and it’s, like, you know, ten sentences,” and I said, “I’ve written parts of my story and it’s six pages long,” and I said, “That’s nothing. You know, my bio’s nothing compared to my story,” I said, “But, the organization I work with,” I said, “Everybody knows my story.” And I said, “So, they know,” I said, “You know, my bio is just a small piece of the whole thing.” So she’s been very, I mean, nervous and, oh God, I’m sure she’s losing sleep over the whole thing. But, like, you know, my brother, he hasn’t called, like, to ask about it and I haven’t told him. I mean, I told him it’s, “You know, it’s gonna be on YouTube if you want to watch it, this is what it is. You can go watch it.” I’m sure my brother hasn’t seen it. My sister-in-law she may have checked it out, just to– to make sure she’s, you know, “God, what do we need to prepare for?” But, uh, I haven’t really talked to him about it, but as great a relationship as, um, he’s my, uh, my brother, he’s two years older than me. And we have, I think we have a pretty decent relationship, but, you know, what, I get it. He wants to move forward and he’s– he’s, you know, he’s married, he’s got two kids, he lives in a beautiful house in Pennsylvania. He’s got a great job, his wife has a great job, you know, they have a Jacuzzi, whatever, you know, two dogs. You know.
0:36:38.8
They have a fantastic house. I mean, life is very good for them in that sense, so, you know, I’m– I’m, you know, I’m not complaining about that. You know, for me, life has just always been a lot different. I’m single and I live in an apartment, you know, and I have one child, and–
What was the– I’m– I’m kind of curious that that moment when your– when your stepmom told your dad. Um, and then your dad and had that conversation with you. What– what was, kind of, what were you thinking and feeling at that time when your dad, you know, had that conversation with you?
Um, I don’t know that I was feeling anything because for me that’s, you know, one of the more difficult– I’ve gotten through a lot in my life, but that’s one of the things that, you know, I definitely lack in. But, um, I think, you know, but I– I told– I remember saying something to effect of, “But you know it wasn’t your fault. That if she hadn’t of told you and, you know, mom hadn’t explained it to you, then there would be nothing for you, you know, to feel guilty about.” But, I don’t know that I really had any feeling attached to it.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, thank you for sharing all of that. Um, I, um, one of the things I was thinking of. So, uh, the moment that I mean that was kind of a big significant change for your family when you moved back to New Jersey. Then you moved back into– into this new family structure now. Um, what was– you said you were around– you were around 9 years old when that happened. Do you– do you have any– I’m kind of curious about, like, your school years. Was there anything that kind of stuck out with you? Were there any, kind of– were there any kind of particular subjects, or, like, you know, parts of school that– that you particularly liked or disliked?
Um, I have to admit, I liked English, I liked to read. So I was always ahead in English, you know. As– as far back as I can remember, I was always behind in a lot of classes, so I would always be taken out of class to go do, like, get extra help or whatever and, uh, reading, I always liked reading. So, that was the one class where I was always, like, a– a year ahead in the reading class. And I was always with people who would, like, sleep through class. And then they’d wake up and say, “Hey! You do really good in class, what was the story about? Or what’s the test gonna be on,” or something. You know, they wanted help but, uh. So that was my good class.
0:38:58.1
Gym class, I hated gym class. But, I had this, um, big thing with my hands. Like, working with my hands and my eyes together, and, um, they didn’t always work together and, uh, I struggled a lot with some things. And, um, I also had a curvature of the spine, so my stepmom was, like, you know, “There’s something that’s just not wor– you know, coming together here.” And my dad said, “Nah, she’s doing good, she’s doing good.” And my stepmom’s, like, “Well no, I don’t think she’s, you know, doing good. There’s– there’s something there.” So, they took me to the doctor, they had me tested, I actually, um, tested for kyphosis which is, uh, not scoliosis but it’s, like, a curvature of the spine in a different direction. And, um, they had also said that I suffered from the effects of fetal alcohol syndrome. So I didn’t actually have it, but I had the effects of, so they said my hands and my eyes coordination was really off. So, that would explain why, like, in gym class when they say, “catch the ball,” like, I’d probably get hit by the ball or I would duck and not be able to catch it. So, gym class was, like, one where, yeah, that was probably the one I hated being in and the one where I know people hated–“Don’t pick her on the team cause she just can’t.” And that was alright, cause yeah, I– I hated gym.
What was, uh, kind of, you know, another big transition for us in our lives is when we hit, kind of, middle school and puberty and– and, you know, our perspectives start to change to– what was– what was that time like for you?
Um, I don’t think things had really changed for me because I– I had some really good people that I was– girls that I was, like, friends with. Some, you know, friends. But I didn’t have a lot of friends in school. And even when I left from, like, Lexington and I went to, you know, to Hills– to the schools in Hillsborough it’s like things hadn’t really changed school-wise. So, my brothers were still– they made friends immediately; they were still on the baseball and the football teams. You know, they still did really well and for me, you know, because I didn’t make friends easily and there was all that, you know, bullying and whatnot. I kind of just kept to myself so then nothing really changed, because then they were, like, “Oh, yeah, she’s different, she’s whatever.”
0:41:10.8
So, things kinda stayed the same, but I had some really good friends that, uh, you know, were really instrumental, you know, with me and, uh, you know, we got along very well so in that sense, you know, yeah it made up for other things that, you know, might’ve happened.
Um, what was– what was your, like, your high school time, like, in terms of– in terms of academics or what you were starting to find interesting or– or how you were starting to make some plans for your life, moving forward?
Um, actually I, um, I liked theater and, uh, I liked music. And I wasn’t– I didn’t think I was 100%, you know, in the acting stage but I really wanted to at one point in time be, like, a singer or be an actress. And, uh, the only schools I wanted were in New York and my parents just didn’t have the money to, you know, send me to New York, never mind to somebody’s house just for a lesson. So, uh, that, that didn’t materialize but I still liked it. And at one point in time, one of my friends and I, we actually tried for the three of us– we had tried out for the school play. We were all very– my friends had beautiful voices and they, you know, sang very well, so we all used to Christmas Carol around the neighbors and at other people’s houses and stuff. And we sang in the choir at school, so when we tried out for the play my friend she got in automatically. She knew all kinds of show tunes and they– so that– we knew she would be a shoo-in. And then, um, my friend and I, we picked a song together by, uh, Fleetwood Mac and we sang it together and the teacher said, well, you have beautiful voices but you’re better in a rock band than you would be for the school play, so we didn’t get in. And so that kind of ended I guess that, uh, career there, but, um. That was– music was really still good for me and, again, the English and the reading, but everything else really suffered and by the time I was in Eleventh grade I was probably not passing a lot of my classes. So, um, my parents, uh, had me and my two brothers– we went down to Stevens Institute and we, they a– like a testing program was, like, a week-long thing where you go and they, you know, write a story in twenty minutes about something that happened to you today, you know. What does the box look like, open, what would the box look like, closed? And they give you a couple of examples and you’d try and guess. What’s the next sequence in the patterns or whatever? And so, it kinda helped to figure out what you should do with your life, you know, maybe what you should major in in college, that kind of thing.
0:43:39.7
And, um, mine was, like, all over the board. You’d be a good librarian or a good florist, you know. You’d be good at taking care of kids, not cause I said I liked kids, cause I babysat, cause I didn’t know what else to do with myself so I babysat, you know. And, uh, so, in that sense they were like, “You know, all we can really say is, you know, you could pick one of those things. Don’t do math. Don’t do engineering.” There were so many things. “Don’t do, don’t do,” and then they said that the best that would probably help me. The counselor that was there said, “Sending me away to school for two years.” Like, to a private school. So, um, you know, my parents talked to the guidance counselors at school and said, you know, she’s gonna be reading and going to another and they had all kinds of ideas on how they could help and she said, “But she’s been in this school for, like, three years and it hasn’t worked yet. So she’s gonna, you know, so we’re sending her somewhere else where she’ll get the help that she needed, cause it’s a little late.” My stepmom felt, you know, to get the help.
And there was a period of time, um, just real quick where, like, I didn’t do a lot of my schoolwork, and so the teachers would call the house and say, “Hey, she didn’t do this, and she failed this,” and my parents were, like, “Wait, what thing didn’t she do.” And I’d be like, “No, no, I did everything.” And they got tired of hearing me, you know, making up the excuses, but my one brother who was two years older than me, he had perfect penmanship. So when things would come home, he would pull an old report card of mine that my stepmom had signed and he would sign her name and turn it in and no one ever questioned that. You know, I was doing worse in school so finally they talked to the guidance and I had this school folder where all my work would go in the folder and all the teachers would sign it every day to say, yes, I was in class, I participated, I turned in my work. Then the guidance counselor would sign it, then my parents would read it and they’d see all the positive and negative things about me and then they’d sign and then the next day I’d have to show my guidance counselor, “Yes, my parents signed it.” And then the whole process would happen over and over again, and I mean, I was always in trouble cause I wouldn’t get it signed, or I wouldn’t bring it home or something–
The original school you were in? Or was this in– did you eventually switch schools? Did you go a different–
This was in the original school. This was probably, like, when I was in, like, probably, like, Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh grade where I kept doing this.
0:45:56.2
So, by the time eleventh grade had rolled around my parents were, like, “You know, you’re the only girl,” and they said, “The problem with this is that, you know, if, you know, if you get pregnant, that’s on our end. And we know that there are just, you know, boundaries and things that–” They, at that time, they knew there was, you know, that I’d be friends with anybody, and that I’d follow the crowd or whatever. And so they were more worried about that, and they’re like, “Your brothers kind of know what’s right and what’s wrong, and you’re kind of like, ‘everything’s good, let’s go’” So they were like, “We think sending you away to school would really help you.” And– and they, you know, we don’t want– they– my stepmom always says that she was worried I’d be in eleventh grade and pregnant or something. She’s like, “we knew sending you away, and I knew you needed so much help, and your dad was, like, ‘no, she’s good, she good.’” And she’s like, “your father and I would argue about her all the time. And I was, like, no she needs help. So she’s, you know, going away.” And when, finally the counselor, you know, said that, “Hey, yeah, going away to school is the best thing.” And when the doctor, you know, talked to my dad and said, “No, yeah, she really does have these issues.” He was kind of, like, “Okay.” I guess he was a little more awakened then. So I went to a private school for girls for two years. So I repeated eleventh grade, did that for twelfth grade in Pennsylvania, and then I went to a two–year school back in Massachusetts, um, and got my associates degree in childcare.
What was the– what was the school you went to in Pennsylvania?
Um, it was called the Grier School for Girls. And my senior class was thirty-three girls, so it was very small. The classrooms were very small. The teachers, I mean, were really good, they lived on campus and they were, like, you know, “We’re here until Saturday night at 9pm, for any homework you need help on. If you come to us on Sunday to say help me because the paper’s due on Monday, you know, we’re not gonna answer our door. So you better come before, like, Sunday, and say ‘Hey, you know, I need help.’” And they were, you know, it– there were a lot of rules and regulations but they were, like, good things. Like, you know, every time I went to lunch or dinner I had to sit at the same table and whoever was, teacher was head of that table, I had to sign in to say, “Hey, I’m here.” And if you didn’t sign in, you got points taken away so if you wanted to go away for the weekend for a school dance or something at, you know, one of the boys schools, well you couldn’t go. So, when that happened once or twice, where I sat at the table, I talked to everybody, but I didn’t sign in. So the teacher said, “Well, I know she was there, but she didn’t sign the paper,” so I got five demerits.
0:48:21.3
And my parents were like, “Well, now you’re learning that, you know, there are consequences when you don’t do what you’re supposed to do. This is, you know. Doesn’t matter that he saw you, you didn’t sign the paper. So he’s not in the wrong, you should’ve signed the paper.” That kind of thing. So it taught– taught me a lot.
Did you– did you like the social network there? Did you appreciate–
I did. I was, I must say that, um, I’m probably friends now on Facebook with, uh, some of the girls that I was there, you know, from ’84, 1984–1986, we’re still friends and I’m friends with maybe one or two people from my college. But that’s about it. But that was, I mean it really was good– we– I was there year-round. I came home for the summer and, like, at Christmas. But for the most part, I mean, I was there and the kids were great. You know, the girls were good, but it was also a riding school so there were a lot of girls from, like, other countries that would come and, um, they were, you know, learning how to ride the horse and doing the whole professional thing so– I remember at one point in time I was mad because when I was graduating I had said to my parents, “The only thing I want is a stereo,” and I thought, “I want the record player and the 8–track player and the– that’s what I wanted,” and I got a clock radio with a cassette player. Because for them, that was, you know, that was breaking the budget and I get so– they, um, were able to afford that and all my friends were like, “Wow! My parents just bought me a new horse and they’re sending it from Saudi Arabia.” And I was just, like, “Wow, like, that’s–” But, you know, so there was that difference there but for me I mean, the girls were really good. It was, I mean it was a good time.
What was the school you went to in Massachusetts?
Um, it was actually– it was called Dean Junior College at the time, now it’s called Dean College and it– I believe it’s now a four-year school, but at the time it was just a two-year school.
Mhm. And, um, was your– did you– was there an expectation, like, did you start building expectations for yourself? Like, what you would do after you finished your Associates or–
Um, I kind of thought, “Well, I’ll go work at a Daycare center and won’t this be lovely,” because, um, when I was growing up, I never really thought I was gonna do much of anything. I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do and because there was so many classes that were difficult and, like, gym was, like, out of the question, I mean, I was very uncoordinated and whatnot. So, I started babysitting for, like, the neighborhood kids and my stepmom was very much in the, you know, “well, this summer instead of you staying home all summer and hanging out with me, how about you actually, you know, hang out with people in the neighborhood.” And I was like, “Oh, God, really?” You know, so she called people and say, “Hey, you know, my daughter has no one to play with, you know, would you mind if she came over to your house?” And, you know, the parents would always say yes, but I know the kids were, like, “Ahh.” And then I would babysit, so that was really, you know, so when everyone said, “Oh, you’re good with kids,” I didn’t think I was good at anything.
0:51:08.1
So it was like, “Oh, work with kids, great. Well, I’m gonna go work with kids,” because everybody says I should work with kids. So then when I went into college, that’s what I did and then, um, probably about halfway through school they said, “Do you want to do social work? Or do you wanna work with kids?” And I just thought, “Well, working with kids was easier, and I probably wouldn’t make it in social work.” So I just said, “Alright, I’m gonna go work with kids.” So that was my mindset, you know? And so I just started working at a daycare center.
And where was that?
That was actually in Needham, Massachusetts. It was an in-home Daycare center and we had, uh, two– like, one group of kids that were, like, um, 3 and 4 that I think it was. That would come, you know, three days a week and then other ones that would come two days a week and they were, like, 4 and 5. And, uh, we had, like, a morning session and then we had an afternoon session. Um, I worked with a woman, she was a nun and so this was, like, her giving back to the community thing. She was really good with the kids. And, um, you know, my boss lived upstairs and we all worked, like, in the basement of her, uh, just the two of us in the basement of her house. And so it was– it was an adjustment but then, um, once I, you know, started working at the daycare, I left college, I moved in with a– a girl that I was friends with in school and, uh, she probably had the same type of values that I had. So we were definitely not good for each other, but, uh, we, uh, worked at a couple of different jobs. I worked at the daycare center and, uh, she dated some guy, you know, and eventually they moved, you know, out and got their own, uh, place together and I dated a couple of people, um, that were definitely not the n– abusive per se, but they were from other countries. They were from Brazil and, uh, they just kinda, you know, “Oh, I can’t get a job. I can’t do this. I need twenty dollars.” And, you know, I was– I’d give them twenty dollars or whatever. “I need to borrow the car for a day.” “Okay, take my car for a day.” But it turned out to be, like, five days. You know, little things that they would do and eventually, you know, I still wasn’t, like, I guess I didn’t have my stuff together and still wasn’t seeing the signs. I just, “Oh, well they need help, I’m gonna help them.”
0:53:13.9
And, uh, some of my friends later on in life, they definitely, uh, had a drug and alcohol problems and, I, you know, would stay out all night making sure they were gonna be safe or something wouldn’t, you know, happen to them. So it kinda– I guess the boundaries and the things that, you know, most people would eventually have and know, well, you know, don’t hang out with these people and don’t do this kind of weren’t there and, um, it wasn’t really, uh, I was dating, uh, somebody that us winded having another girlfriend. And I just thought, “Oh, you know, I’m gonna, you know, fix her wagon and I’m gonna make things work with him.” And it didn’t work. And my oldest brother, he was actually, uh, he went to school later on in Massachusetts. Um, pretty much right after my parents had gotten married. He moved out, he went to school in Massachusetts– so he was still living in Massachusetts. So, you know, um, I was talking to him and his girlfriend and his girlfriend was like, “You know, anytime you need somewhere to stay you just come stay at my place.” So I started, you know, spending a couple of nights with her, and, um, I– actually I had a very nice apartment that, um, one of my friends, girl who I roomed with in college, her uncle owned it. Very nice place, but as soon as one of the guys, the guy that I was dating said, “Hey, move in with me.” I was, like, “Okay.” Leave the nice apartment and move in with him and, like, six other guys that lived in this apartment, some upstairs, some downstairs. We all shared the same quarters or whatever and I thought, you know, it was great. And then, again, when he had the other girlfriend and things didn’t work out, it was, like, my brother’s girlfriend winded up, you know, calling my parents and saying, “You know, really she– this isn’t a good time for her and she shouldn’t be here. Things aren’t gonna work out. And, you know, she’s still trying to hang on.” And, you know, so my– my brothers all came down to Massachusetts and they cleared out the whole entire apartment. Everything was mine, so, by the time I moved out and took everything it was just, you know, a couple of guys sleeping on a mattress. There was nothing else, you know, I took everything and I moved back to New Jersey and, um, I lived with my parents probably for about two months and my stepmom finally said, “Well, you’re gonna get outta bed and you’re gonna get a job.”
0:55:20.1
And she said, “Cause otherwise you can’t live here.” She said, “We’re not– we’re not gonna enable you to stay home and stay in bed all the time and poor you. And, sorry it happened but time to move on.” So eventually I moved out and, you know, got moved in with some really good people and had an apartment. But then, I met my daughter’s father and then, that kinda ended that. Backwards living arrangement, once again.
How did you meet him?
I actually– I was taking a Spanish class. I decided I wanted to learn a little bit, I was taking a Spanish and a writing class at, um, Raritan Valley Community College and, um, while I was the– the– the teacher that was teaching the Spanish said, “Hey, we’re gonna go down to this uh, like, restaurant and bar in, uh, Bound Brook, and we’re gonna– for our class we’re gonna learn to order in Spanish and speak Spanish, and you’ll hear some Spanish music, dance a little bit and then, uh, you know, that’ll be our last hurrah.” So, a friend of mine and I from the class who went down there and the teacher never showed. And so we wait and wait and no one’s there from class, so, we, um, had sent her a message and she said, “Oh, you know, I’m at my apartment,” you know, “swing by. I had a staff meeting or something happened,” and she said, “I was late at work and I sent everyone a message saying, ‘sorry, you know, your grades will be out in a couple weeks, but I couldn’t do it.’” And I said, “Well, we never got the message,” so she was, like, “Alright, well.” We hung out for a little bit, chatted with them. We kind of went back and hung out at the bar and some guy asked me to dance. And so I just started dancing with him until, uh, the girl that I was with, one of the guys that she was dancing with, he came to me and said “You know, that guy has a girlfriend,” and he said, “Believe it or not, that girlfriend’s really not nice, and you don’t,” he said, “you don’t wanna mess with her.”
0:56:59.1
And he said, “So, when you’re going home by the end of the night,” he said, “You know, we’re gonna walk you to your car,” he said, “because really you shouldn’t be hanging out with that guy. He’s not, he’s, like, you know, bad medicine.” I was, like, “Oh, but he seems nice, you know.” So, we, uh, you know, I went home, everything seemed fine. He called me up and said, “Hey, you wanna get together?” And we’d hang out and, uh, we’d always hang out at the bar. And then finally, the bartender, “You don’t wanna hang out with him, he’s a drug addict. And he’s got a girlfriend, and in case they haven’t told you, his girlfriend is, like, not someone you want to get in the way of.” And so, yeah, I got in her way once and I was the talk of the town for a good couple weeks probably. And at one point in time we were gonna go somewhere to hang out and dance and I guess I still hadn’t gotten the message and, um, she came chasing him down the street, yelling at him. Beating him up in the street, kicking him and yelling at him and then he had one of his friends with him and he said, “Look, tell, tell, um, you know, this guy to get in the front seat with you and I’ll just get in the back seat.” And the girlfriend was yelling at him and she said, “Who are you?” And I said, “Oh, I’m with the guy next to me.” And she said, “Yeah, okay.” And he said, “No, no–” that guy said, “Yeah, we’re together.” And she didn’t believe it but, uh, he got in the car and we, you know, hung out at the bar and at this place and we were dancing and the girlfriend kept peeking in the door and coming in, every time she did he’d say, “Hey, could you dance with my friend? Go dance with my friend.” And, “Okay.” His friend was drunk all the time, but I danced with him. And then eventually I was like, “You know what? Rumor has it that you're gonna be married to your girlfriend,” and I said, “So that’s good. You, you know, go marry your girlfriend because she already knows who I am and–” You know, so, and now I’m the talk of the town cause I definitely got the shit kicked out of me. Which was, you know, I guess deserved and, uh, so I just, you know, ended it there. But every now and then I would go to the bar just to make sure he was okay or that, you know, he wasn’t on drugs. And the bartender’s, like, “He’s not here.”
0:58:56.9
And I’m like, “Nah, I don’t want him back, but I just wanted to make sure, you know, that at least he’s okay.” And he said, “Well, whatever’s gonna happen to him, he’s picked his, you know, path in life. That’s, you know, doesn’t have to be yours.” And then that other guy just kept coming around the bar, hanging out with me. You know, “Hey, you want to get together, you want to hang out?” We started hanging out and we started dating and, uh, anytime he would disappear and go to the bathroom or step out for a second, his friends were always, like, “You know, he’s not really a good guy today, you’d be better if you dated us. Cause we know who he used to date.” And so I was still the talk amongst all his friends. And, uh, I was like, “No thanks, no thanks.” And then he would just get so mad that people were talking to me. And, um, we were at the bar one time actually and, um, I came to– he told me, “I’m at the bar, come meet me, take me home.” And, uh, so I met him at the bar and he wasn’t ready to leave so I stood, probably for a good forty-five minutes next to him while he drank and ignored me and I just didn’t, you know, I figured that was the thing to do. And some guy said, “You know, it’s not right that you have to stand here.” You know. So how about you take my seat? And, um, he happened to be an African-American gentleman. And while that was, you know, um, my– my daughter’s father he didn’t like that. One, because he was African–American and two, because he offered me a seat. And he said, “What, are you hitting on my girlfriend?” He said, “Well, I didn’t know it was your girlfriend, you weren’t talking to her.” And he said, “Well, she’s my girlfriend and if she wants a seat, I’ll give her a seat.” And he said, “Well, alright, whatever, I’m–” he said, “I’m with my girlfriend here and her sister, I have no interest, you know, in dating anybody else.”
1:00:30.4
And her father didn’t believe it so he smashed his head on the bar and stood up and said, “So you now you wanna say something about it?” And the bartender, as short as he was, although he was taller than me, he jumped right over the bar without even moving glasses, or without moving the, you know, the– lifting the lid so he could, like, get through, the door or whatever. He just jumped over the whole thing and smacked him in the side of the head and said, “Now you’re gonna leave,” and he said, “You’re gonna go outside.” And so he shoved him outside. And he said, “Alright, well I gotta go now.” And the bartender said, “you’re not going out there,” and I said, “Well, he’s gonna be kind of angry if I don’t come out, so,” I said, “It works better for me if I just go and I just take him back to my place or something.” And he was like, “No, I think you should stay here.” And then suddenly the window, the emergency window outside in the bar was broken, so the bartender went out there and he said, you know, “Who did it?” And maybe ten people out there, all friends saying, “We didn’t see anything.” But Monica’s dad was laughing hysterically and he said, “Well, you did it.” And he said, “I didn’t do it,” and he said, “Well, I’m gonna have you arrested if you don’t leave.” And then I went out maybe a half an hour later or something and he wasn’t there, but, you know, eventually, you know, I got into my car and he kinda knocked on the window and, you know, he got into the car and he started yelling and he broke the radio in the car and he was screaming and shouting about, you know, “Who was he that offered you a seat and the bartender hurt my ear because he smacked me in the side of the head,” and, you know, and he was just screaming and shouting, and that was kinda everything just progressed I guess downhill from there.
So was this, um, was this, kind of in there– this was still in the early part of your relationship? Or before you were–
Yes. Happened in the first year.
Yeah.
Maybe the first or second year and you would’ve thought, like, most people, I think would’ve said, “Okay, this is really crazy” and they would’ve just left, but, like, for me, I was just like, “Okay, well, things are gonna get better. I’m gonna make him better.” You know? And I know– I remember, like, when I was younger that my mom, besides drinking a lot, she smoked a lot. And I remember leaving her little notes, you know, as a kid, like, you know, “To please stop smoking or drinking,” or whatever and I mean– she just had her own agenda.
1:02:36.3
So I think maybe in some ways I thought if I fixed him, that would make everything that I thought, you know, that I couldn’t fix before, you know, was good. Would make it right. But, um, it got to a point where the house that I lived in– I lived with– there was, um, two other women and, uh, you know, one guy that lived in the apartment in a very old house that we lived in. And it got to the point where, like, he would call me on the phone and say, “Hey, come and get me.” So I would go drive around Bound Brook trying to find him. You know, and you would never say, “Well, gee, I left the bar and now I’m, you know, sleeping on the– at the train station or something.” Like I would drive around, I wouldn’t see him, I’d go home. But I knew that okay, eventually he’s gonna come to the house and he’s gonna be mad and I didn’t want anyone at the house knowing. I didn’t want them seeing anything. So, like, I would be awake, and– and he would ride his bicycle because he couldn’t drive from Bound Brook all to Whitehouse Station. And he would– or sometimes he would walk. If he didn’t, if his bike wasn’t working he would walk, you know, down there. And he would, like, as soon as the bicycle would hit our driveway it was, like, all rocks, like, I was awake. Like, I knew. That okay, I would hear that noise and I’d be like, “Okay, he’s here.” So then I would go outside, like, to meet him or to bring him in and kinda try and keep him quiet or whatever. Cause, I didn’t think, you know, that well, if he’ll ask me to move out, if I have to move out I have nowhere to go, I don’t have any money saved, then I have to tell my parents, you know, that “gee, well, here’s another crisis I’m having and I couldn’t fix it.” You know, or I can’t handle myself, whatever, and my brothers will have to come in and move all my stuff out again and, you know, they’ll have to have a talk to him, you know, about I.N.S or something like that, you know? And which they were good at, having– they’ve had that conversation with people I had, uh, dated before. And, uh, you know, so, and I just thought, no I don’t want anyone knowing that once again here’s another situation and I can’t handle it, so.
1:04:28.1
I would just kinda keep him quiet and he would pass out in the bed and sometimes I’d go to work in the morning and sometimes, by the time I actually got him to sleep it was time for me to go work, so I would call out. Because by then I had been up all night anyways. Like, “I’ll be in tomorrow, I’m not feeling well, I’m not coming in today.”
Where were you working at this point?
Um, at that point, I was working at Macy’s.
Mhm.
And, uh, while I was working there I became pregnant and, uh, you know, I was still trying to make everything, you know, seem really good, you know, with me and my family, you know. Friends, or whatever. And, um, so when I told them that I was pregnant, he said, well, you know, “Good, you know, we’ll have a fam– now we’re gonna have a family.” And I– probably a month or two went by and I thought, “Wow, I’m gonna be like my mother. I’m gonna be, you know, up all night crying, sleeping all day. I’m gonna be drinking.” And I just had, you know, I thought, “Wow, I have no skills to be a parent.” And I was really panicked and so I told him, “I can’t, you know, do this.” And he said, “Look,” he said, “if you don’t want it, want to have the baby,” he said, “Just have the baby and give it to my mom, you know. She’ll take care of it in Mexico.” And I was like, “I’m not gonna do that.” He said, “Because it’s not like you’re giving birth to a litter of puppies and now we just give them away.” And I said, “Yeah, but I can’t do it, I don’t, you know, I don’t want to have a child.” And one of his friends tried talking, “Oh, you have to have the baby, he wants you to have the baby.” But it was like he didn’t want to quit drinking. You know, I would still be looking for him at two or three in the morning and I mean, my back was killing me, I was tired, and so I wind up having an abortion and, um, I said, “I’m gonna have an abortion, if you want–” I thought this was my out, I said, “If you want to go, you know, you can leave.” I said, you know, and he was like, “No, no, no you can’t do– you can’t do it.” But he wouldn’t come with me. I– I had it. My roommate at the time, she took me, you know, and I came home and I didn’t say anything to her other than just I wasn’t ready to have the child. She said “Alright,” and then, um, things got, you know, worse at my missing work so I got fired from Macy’s and actually at the time I got fired from Macy’s I was pregnant a second time.
1:06:38.6
And, um, I was like, “Wow, I can’t do this.” And I started panicking again so I told nobody and I went and I took myself to the doctor and, um, you know, they– I had another abortion and then I took myself home and I told nobody and I just, you know, took care of myself for a couple of days and I wasn’t working. So I kind of was just, like, I didn’t want to tell my roommates that I wasn’t working, so I used to, like, stay in my room until they would all go to work and then I would come out of my room and come downstairs and do whatever, so that they wouldn’t know that, “Oh she’s not working so I guess she can’t pay the rent.” And, um, and then eventually I got another job, working at, like, a bagel place, and short lived. And then I started working at Lord & Taylor’s and I was there for probably about three and half years, um, and then, while– I think it was while I was working at Lord & Taylor’s. I’m not sure, but when I became pregnant the third, I went the whole nine months. I never told her dad, I didn’t tell anybody I was working with. He never asked. You know, he seemed a little curious at times, but I was overweight at the time so he didn’t say anything, I never told him, he never asked and it wasn’t until, like, you know, my water broke in the middle of the night, and I was, like, “Wow, I have to do something.” And I didn’t know what to do so I just stayed awake and just kind of thought about it. You know, and then I was awake all the next day, still at home, kinda hanging out at the apartment trying to figure out what to do. And then, uh, by that night I was like, “Alright, it’s now night two, I haven’t slept in– I’ve gotta do something.” And, uh, so by that morning I called a friend that actually worked with me and I said, “You know, can you take me to the hospital, I’m not feeling well.” And she said, “Yeah, I’ll come get you.” And she came in a Mustang with bucket seats.
1:08:23.5
And I said, “Well, I can probably get into the car, but I might not be able to get out,” I said, “Cause I’m right now, I’m having a baby.” And she was like, “Oh, my God. I– I didn’t know!” And, you know, so we went to the hospital and she dropped me off and I, uh, stayed at the hospital– actually that day was my stepmom’s birthday. And so I called her to wish her a happy birthday and I was, like, “This is–” and it’s terrible to say, but my mindset at the time was, “Wow, this is great.” In one way, I was like, I caught– I didn’t forget to call my stepmom on her birthday, so she’s not asking questions, like, “Why didn’t you call or what are you doing?” So I don’t have to lie to her, tell her anything. I called my daughter’s father from, like, the hospital phone and there wasn’t caller ID then, you know. So– and I said to him, “Oh, I’m hanging out at Debbie’s house.” And Debbie was probably the only friend I had that he was, for whatever reason, was afraid of. So when I said I’m hanging out at Debbie’s house, he didn’t say, “Well, I’m coming, I’m gonna take you out of there.” He just said, “Oh, okay, that’s fine. Tell her I said hello.” And so, I said I was at her house, I stayed in the hospital for two days. Next day I, you know, after I had the baby, I looked through the yellow pages and the first baby ad I saw about adoption agencies I just said, “Well, that’s the one.” And they came and they said, “Do you want to name the father?” And I said, “No.” ‘Cause they had said, “if you do, then you have to put down his name and we have to notify him.” And so I said, “No, I don’t know who the father is.” And they said, “Okay,” you know, they, uh, took the baby away and I– I went home. I didn’t tell anybody and, you know, I called and said, “I’m sorry I didn’t wish you, you know, I couldn’t be there on your birthday, but I’ll come see you next weekend,” and I came to visit her. And she was, like, “You know, um,” she said, “I’ve been very concerned about you because you’re getting, like, this, thing they call, like, rosacea or something on your face that people get when they’re expecting,” she’s, like, “it’s kind of a thing that people get when, you know, they’re expecting.”
1:10:09.0
I said, “Oh no, I’m not expecting.” But, I knew, like, that– that it was on my face and I had done a little bit of research and so I already had an answer prepared and I said, “You know, it’s just from stress, you know, and from work and all that kind of stuff.” And she was like, “Oh, okay, if you say so.” And so I already had my answer cause I knew she would know the medical definition for it so I had to have some kind of knowledge. But I, you know, I told nobody about it and I just kept on going living my life, but as, what would happen was that, I was still dating, you know, my daughter’s father and he– and it was, like, that– that the adoption agency would call me and say, “Okay, can you come on this day? Are you working, can you come on this day to, down to the center? Because we want you to go through a photo album of prospective parents.” And there was a wonderful woman named Bunny, who was an older woman that was, you know, taking care of my daughter. So I would see my daughter and she would, uh, you know, I’d get to hold her for a moment or two and then I would, you know, pass her back and I would look at families and things and, um, I actually had a stuffed animal that my grandmother gave me. My maternal grandmother gave me. And the funny thing about that was when I was younger, my dad used to buy me all the Beatrix Potter animals and the books and he got me a ton of stuffed animals and my grandmother was just under the mindset of, you know, that animals want things that you really needed. So, she always encouraged me to get rid of my animals. So I used to stand on the street corner with my little table and sell my stuffed animals for, like, twenty–five cents apiece. And the woman across the street, who was my friend that was, like, nine years older, said, “I used to feel so bad for you, I used to buy them from you. So anytime you came into my house you could still play with them, but, you know, I felt bad that, you know, you were getting rid of them.” So I– so as my grandmother got older, she– actually before she passed away, bought me a stuffed animal. And, that was kinda, like, I was, like, very shocked by it, but I said, “Okay.” And I kept it.
1:12:06.2
And so, when I finally picked out a family, you know, for my daughter, I gave her the stuffed animal to take with her. And, but it was like any time, like, we’d say, “Okay,”, like, you might call me on the phone and say “Hey, are you there?” On Wednesday I’d say, “Okay, Wednesday at two o’ clock I’ll come,” and, um, I didn’t, I didn’t have a car so I used to take the train. I’d go into Summit, you know, and going out the station I’d find my way into Summit. And it would never fail that anytime I was supposed to go and have this meeting, that my daughter’s father would say, “I’m not feeling good today. I can’t go to work.” Can you call my daughter and tell them I’m not coming in today. And he was, like, never home when I was, um, having the phone conversations, he was never home, but it was, like, some kind of extra sensory, I don’t know. But, nine times out of ten I got to change my appointment because I’d be, like, I don’t why but once again he doesn’t want to go to work today, and if I’m to come visit you in Somerset in Summit, he, he would demand to come with me and then he’d be with me.
The adoption agency, you were going to visit in Somerset?
Yes.
And then how long, how long were you two together by this point?
Um, by this point we probably had been together about six years. I think it was somewhere around, like, six maybe six and half. Um, I’m not really sure at that point in time, I think that–
You were living together that whole time or–
Um, we weren’t living together. It wasn’t until I– I gave birth to my daughter Monica that we actually got a place of our own. But, we weren't living together but he just came over all the time. And he was actually one of these guys who we had a spare key outside, so, like, if I wasn’t home and because at one point in time we had two guys living in the apartment and another time we had just one. Um, he was very distrusting, so he would, like, find the spare key and he would just let himself into the house. And he’d go inside and hang out in my room, but if nobody was home, he would, like, peek in everybody else’s bedroom. Just to make sure, because I didn’t drive, I didn’t have a car, to make sure that I wasn’t, like, hanging out in another guy’s bedroom or that I wasn’t, you know, somewhere else. And he would, like, kind of snoop around the house and then I would come from work and he would just be, like, sitting in my room.
1:14:13.4
And he, you know, and I was, like, “God, you know,” in my head I was saying, “I’m gonna get kicked out, something’s gonna happen,” because you don’t just let yourself into somebody else’s house. And kinda look around the house and then, you know, just wait for me to come home. So it’s, like, you know, so he was always wanting to know what I was doing and where I was going and I knew there’d be no way that I could say, “Well, I’m going to Summit, you stay here.” Cause he wouldn’t know I’m coming. “Why you going to Summit?” And so, it was like I didn’t want him to know, so I would always change the appointment. ‘Cause it was just, he always wanted to come. Or he always wanted to know, “Where you going?” You know? So, “I’m off today,” and it happened more often than not, “I’m off today I’m not going to work,” you know. So, you know, “We’ll do something together.” You know, or “I want to go to the bar, take me to the bar,” or something. So, it’d be like I’d cancel and go to the bar. But eventually she wound up in a very nice family and they took great care of her and we had some correspondence for a bit, back and forth, they sent me a couple of pictures and wrote some letters and I kept them at the adoption agency because I didn’t want to have anything at the house that he might find. Or that anyone would find out about. So– and then eventually I just stopped going to the adoption agency and I stopped picking up the letters or corresponding with them. And then I had my, uh, then I had Monica and it was, like, you know, maybe I was two months pregnant when I told him and then I told my family and, you know, everybody was excited and we–
How much time between– so, um, your– your, uh, your first daughter who was adopted, around what year was that?
Um, I, you know, I don’t know. And that’s terrible to say that I don’t remember, I mean I had my daughter, I had my daughter Monica in ’98 so it might’ve been in ’96.
Okay.
’97 maybe around then. ’95, I don’t know. It was, I just know it was, like, a couple a years, um, before Monica.
So it was a few years later, um, and then, um, what was it like when you– when you, uh, found out you were pregnant with– with Monica?
Um, it was still kind of the same. I don’t, I really don’t know what had changed. Um, one of my brothers, his wife was expecting his daughter around the same time. And for some reason, I don’t know why, I guess, whether I was tired of hiding or running or I don’t know, but I told everyone and my roommates were, like, “Wow, that’s–” My– the one of the women that lived in our apartment, was like, “This is great,” you know, “I’m gonna help you.” My friend Debbie, who helped me at the hospital before, she helped me move stuff in. I was probably, we found an apartment and [unintelligible] maybe I wanna say, like, I looked, like, I was seven or eight months pregnant, so I guess I was around then. You know, we moved in and, um, that was in, uh, ’98, you know, and then by, um, one day actually and things were going smoothly, you know, for me and my daughter. He would still, you know, sometimes he’d go to work, sometimes he didn’t, um, you know, if he didn’t I’d be, like, “You know, can you call?” You know, “Walk down to the payphone and call out for me.” We didn’t have a house phone.
1:17:18.6
And, uh, sometimes he’d, “I’m going to my brother’s house,” you know, “I’ll be back,” and he’d come back the next day. Or he’d come back at three in the morning and he’d try and make himself some, a semblance of dinner. So I’d be like, “No, no, I’ll cook.” Cause he had the stove on, like, really high and a little tiny pot on the stove and the pot would be on fire and he’d be like, “Alright, I’m ready to cook.” And I’d be, like, “Nah, I’ll do it.” And, uh, most times he would just, you know, I’d– I could hear him coming in and so I’d be watching him come in. He would, without fail, always hide his wallet under the cushion in the chair, cause he said, “I don’t want anybody taking my money.” And so he would hide his wallet, he’d pass out. The next morning I’d get up, I’d uh, take all the money out of his wallet with the exception of two dollars because I used to take, walk down and take my daughter to the babysitter. I met a woman that was, um, babysitting my daughter while I was at Lord & Taylor’s so I would leave him two bucks, just enough to take the– the bus to get down and then pick her up from the babysitter. And I’d walk down, put her in the stroller, I’d walk down to the babysitters, I’d drop her off, um, sometimes I’d do food shopping and I’d buy food or whatever. He’d get up and say, “I don’t know what happened to my money.” So, “You must have dropped it or something in the bar.” And he’d be, like, “Yeah, I guess I did.” So I never got in trouble for that. But, uh, you know, and I bought diapers, baby food. He worked at Walmart at the time, so he got a discount, but he’s like, “I can’t buy diapers.” “Why? You get a discount.” “Yeah, but I don't want to be walking home with diapers.” “Yeah, it takes you five minutes to walk home, you know.” “No.” When he’d go shopping, he’d buy two bags of tortillas, a dozen eggs, two packages of hot dogs, uh, bunch of jalapeños and, like, four or five of the very large beers and that was his idea of food shopping. And I’m, like, “Well, okay, she’s, like, you know, a year old, she can’t eat jalapenos, she can’t eat tortillas, maybe eggs but not hot dogs. She can’t drink beer, you know.” And, uh, he’d be like, “But I shopped.” And I’m like, “Well that was, like, great shopping, but I’ll shop.”
1:19:22.1
You know, and, uh, so I just got to the point where I would just take his money and I’d go food shopping, or pay the babysitter or do whatever and, uh, sometimes if he was mad because didn’t cook something the right way or he didn’t get what he wanted or whatever, he wouldn’t pick her up from the babysitter’s. And then she’d call me at work and say, “Well, your daughter’s still here, you know, her father hasn’t come by to get her yet.” And so, like, I’d have to tell my boss, “I’m sorry, I have to leave work ‘cause I have to go get the baby from the babysitter. It’s seven o’ clock at night, she’s been there since, you know, like, nine this morning.” So I would go and I would, uh, pick her up from the babysitter’s and, uh, you know, they would, they were nice they let me leave work, but there was a period of time where we didn’t have a babysitter. And he had just started working at Walmart, and he said, “You know what, I met this guy, he’s really nice and him and his wife’s really nice and they’re willing to babysit for us. So it’s right down the street,” they lived above a restaurant in this, uh, they lived in a kitchen area of this apartment, everybody else had a d–who lived there had a different room and, um, he said, “But he’s a really nice guy, and, uh, he said he, you know, that his wife would watch, uh, your daught–our daughter.” And at the time she was probably maybe 19 or something, or 20, dating this guy from another country. You know, they’re both from another country and so I would drop my daughter and I was always amazed in the wintertime, I, um, I would drop her off and, um, I had a friend from work that was very nice. He would give me rides to and from work and, uh, I would drop off and he would wait outside for me and I would carry the stroller all the way up, you know, twenty-five stairs to this, to the kitchen that they lived in. And I was always just so impressed, like, “God, every time I drop her off and I come to pick her up, she’s still in the car seat, still in the snow seat. So, she’s all ready to go.” And I never thought anything different. I just thought, “Wow, they always have, they always seem to know when I’m coming, she’s always ready.” And then I would come home and she’d be soaked and I would change her, do whatever. And I never clued in, ‘til, like, one day I went to drop her off and I had too much to carry so I dropped her off in the apartment, I said “I’ll be back in a minute,” and I went downstairs, you know, to get the stroller and take some things up and she was crying in the apartment.
1:21:36.1
And she was just crying and crying and crying and I listened outside the door and I was very quiet and she probably cried for a good five minutes and they weren’t doing anything. So I knocked on the door and immediately I could hear, “Oh, it’s okay, it’s okay,” and they started talking to her. So I was, like, “You know what,” I said, “I’ve changed my mind,” I said, “I’m not leaving her here today. I’m not gonna go to work.” And so I took her downstairs and I was crying and my friend was, like, “What can I do?” He’s like, “How could I help you?” And I said, “I can’t leave her there. Something tells me that this is so wrong.” So I never brought her back and then, uh, there was a guy who lived in the apartment and he actually rented out the closet and he had his little mattress and he was drunk 90% of the time but, one day he said, “Believe it or not,” he said, “They went shopping.” He said, “for two hours they left her alone in the apartment,” and he said, “And they, you know, she cried the whole time,” he said, “I couldn’t get in,” He said, you know, but, uh, “She just stood there and cried and cried,” So I didn’t pay them. I was paying them, like, maybe $40 a week if that, so I didn’t pay them for the rest and I didn’t send her back and I saw them in the street and they were, like, “Oh yeah, we’re– we miss seeing her.” And I said, “Well yeah, that’s okay, but, uh, I found someone that can work out better,” and she was terrified looking at them, you know. So, and I said, “That was your bright idea,” you know. But we eventually– I found a better babysitter, you know, and, um, my job seemed very forgiving and then, um, in September, he, one of the days in September he decided, you know, “I’m going to, to work, you know. I’ll be back.” And he never came home.
1:23:13.2
And he was probably gone for, like, two days and suddenly he came home and he had stitches in his cheek and, you know, he, he was black and blue and, uh, he had this big boot on his foot and, uh, his leg was hurt. And I said, well, you know, “What happened?” And he handed me a bunch of paperwork from the emergency room that was in complete Spanish. And I mean, my Spanish was good, but it wasn’t that good. I had no clue what they wanted and somehow it turned out, when I read the medical report that he– he didn’t go to work, but he was riding his bike along the street and he hit a car. A moving car and there were no witnesses even though the street was packed with all his friends, nobody saw anything and it took them about four hours to subdue before they could examine him. And so, because he was, they said he was drunk and belligerent. So, they kept him overnight at the hospital, they sewed up his face. He wind up having to get pins and screws put into his ankle and they said, “So, you know, he needs to have surgery on his ankle.” And I was, like, “Okay,” so he couldn’t work.
And, um, then two days later, along came Hurricane Floyd and from outside the apartment, the water level was probably about thirteen feet outside. But inside, we had a couple of stairs that went up and then there was our apartment, so I only had probably, maybe three or four feet of water in the apartment, but, you know, I was making dinner and the water was going down into the basement and he was hobbling around on crutches and my daughter was in diapers and I was, like, “God the landlady’s gonna be so mad.” Cause all her stuff is being pushed into the basement and so I was trying to save it and the alarms were going off and I was saying to my daughter’s father, “I don’t know what’s going on,” you know, “there’s these warning sirens going off, like, the last half an hour.” I said, “there’s water going in the basement,” I said, “Our, our front,” our front door actually led out into a big yard, and I said, “The whole yard is flooded.” And I said, “The poor neighbor next door, he’s in his 90s.” I said, “How’s he gonna get out of his apartment? The poor guy,” I said, “I hope something doesn’t happen to him. I hope someone can rescue him.” And, you know, I was kind of in denial cooking on the stove and at the same time trying to keep stuff from going in the basement and suddenly someone started yelling. “Don’t bother putting that,” you know, “to block, block the basement, you can’t stop it, you have to get out of your house.”
1:25:33.0
And I was like, “Oh this guy’s not talking to me,” and I continued to, you know, do stuff and he’s yelling, “Get the guy with the broken leg into the boat!” And I start to laugh and I said, “No, if only his leg was broken,” but I looked at it and it was only his ankle that was broken. So in my head I was still irked about the whole thing that happened to him and him not being able to work. And I was kind of wishing something worse had happened to him, but the guy there was, you know, someone from the fire station in duck waders, you know, and, you know, “take diapers for you daughter and put the guy with the broken leg in the boat and, uh,” they said, and, you know, “get ready to go.” So I grabbed diapers, I walked out the door and they said, “you need to go back in and turn off the stove.” I was still cooking the chicken. Um, so I turned off the stove. I had a cat, left her behind and we just left and we went into the– to the fire station and he was mad. “I’m here in the fire station with you sleeping on the floor and there’s nobody in the fire station,” and he’s like, “I wanna go home. My boots are at the house,” he’s like, “I need my boots. They’re expensive. I need my boots.” And that was his concern, was the boots. And I was thinking, well, “All– all my stuff. This is all furniture that used to belong to my mom, my grandmother.” That was given to me and it was old, you know, but that was my concern. And, like, my daughter’s clothes, and he was worrying about his boots. And then the– eventually at about maybe one in the morning the fire station was filled with people. Just people staying, crying and saying they were stuck on their roofs, and they couldn’t get out of their apartment, and the police had to come and help them down off the roof and out of their apartment. And, you know, all the different things that happened.
1:27:12.2
So, I was, like, “Wow, we really lucked out.” And then the next day to went to go see my apartment and it was underwater. It was still underwater, and the road was blocked and we could only walk along the, um, the railroad tracks that went across and by that point, um, her, my daughter’s father his boot was wet, so it began to get smaller and shrink because of, I guess it was a special one that you couldn’t get wet. So he threw the boot away. He said, “I can’t wear this.” And I still didn’t know exactly what was wrong with his ankle but he threw the boot away and my sister, my younger sister, she was, um, in the Naval Academy at the time and I had spoken to my parents and said, “You know,” I called them in the morning and I said, “Uh, just so, you know, I heard on the news that part of Route 206, you know, has a big hole. And that part of the road then is blocked, so when you’re going to see her, you know, just be careful.” And they said, “Well, how are you.” And I said, “Oh, you know, I’m good. Not much, you know, going on here.” And they’re, like, “well do you need anything?” And I’m, like, “No, I’m fine, don’t worry,” you know, I was at the fire station. And my place was underwater but I told them, “You know, go. Just be careful when you go.”
So they left, and then they started saying that the water was contaminated. And that we should not, you know, save anything, that there was sewage in the water. And to get rid of everything. And, um, so I think it was, like, a Saturday night I went, we walked by the apartment and there was actually a guy who lived upstairs and he was upstairs in his apartment watching television. But our fuse box in the basement was underwater. But I thought, “Wow, the last couple of things we had,” you know, “could’ve very easy gone up in fire.” And he was kind of, he talked to himself a lot, he sang to himself, so I think he was, you know, he had some issues and, um, he said, “Wow,” you know, when, when we started moving stuff out of the apartment, you know, my daughter’s father he couldn’t help at all, he was hobbling. And I was kind of, like, I didn’t know where to begin. Mud in the oven, you know, flush the toilet, it would come out into the tub. You know, mud was everywhere. And so, um, I started moving some things and finally I called my brother and said, “Well, you know, if you could me,” I said, “I need you to, if your wife could watch Monica for a couple hours. I just have to move some things out of my apartment.” And he said, “Oh,” he said, “I can help you.” I said, “It’s not that bad.” I said, “But, um, I just want to put some things out, you know, to the curb. The Coast Guard–The National Guard’s gonna come and take them. But they said the water’s contaminated and I don’t want her touching anything.”
1:29:43.3
So my brother came and he was, like, “What planet are you living on that you say this is not bad?” He said, “You cannot live here.” He said, “You will never be able to go back into this apartment, you can’t sleep at the fire station forever.” And he’s like, “And what do you think you’re gonna save?” He said, “There’s nothing to be saved.” And so, he called my parents and said, “You know, whatever she told you,” he said, “Don’t believe it.” He said, “The apartment is destroyed, she can’t go back to it. They have nowhere to go.” And he said, “And I’m gonna help her move stuff to the curb.” So, you know, my daughter’s father he was grousing the whole time, yelling, “Ah, your brother,” and this and that. “I could take him on in a fight, he’s not that, you know, just cause he’s tall, doesn’t mean that I couldn’t–” you know, he didn’t, like him. “He, just cause he’s tall, I’m not afraid of him. I could–” whatever, and my brother just said, “God, can you tell him to go sit somewhere or get out of the way cause he’s useless.” You know, “I don’t know what he’s saying,” he said, “But, he’s just moaning, groaning, hobbling around on his foot and he’s not helpful.” And he said, “So, you and I will do this.” And it took us forever and every time he’d come to us, “What are you doing?” “Well, I’m just going through some pictures,” you know, and he’s, like, “Alright, great, we can do that later. But it’s gonna get dark soon,” he’s, like, “And you have to put the pictures away and just bring the furniture and help.” So we put everything on the– the lawn that I owned and there was very little left of the apartment and at this point the guy upstairs was complaining, “Well, I had to come home. I didn’t want to stay at the fire station. And I couldn’t find the landlord. I didn’t know where the landlady went, so” he said, “I just went upstairs and stayed in my apartment.” And he had the lights on, the television on. My brother was, like, “Oh my god, like,” he’s, like, “What situation are you in here? Boyfriend can’t help, his foot’s got something wrong. The guy upstairs is trying to live in an apartment that, you know, the fuse box is underwater and you don’t know where the landlady is.” And so we, you know, so, um, my daughter and I, we went to my stepmom’s house. My mom and dad’s house. Um, we stayed there for a couple of months but, um, her, her dad didn’t want to come.
1:31:42.6
He said, “I’m not going.” He said, “Cause someone might steal our stuff.” And I said, “No one’s gonna take our stuff, there’s nothing they would want.” I mean it’s covered in sewage and waste, and– and it’s ruined. And,” I was, like, I had some furniture that was mahogany, and we had one day of sunshine, the next day it rained, and the furniture turned green. And we couldn’t even get the drawers open to get the clothes out. So I’m, like, “who’s gonna steal this? Nobody.” And he’s, like, “Nah, I’m not coming.” So he said, “I’m gonna–” so he slept outside on this lovely, hot pink, velour couch that we had, you know, all night for a couple of nights and then he finally knocked on the door, and said, “Can I stay with you?” He said, “It’s really cold out there, believe it or not.” And I was, like, “Well, yeah. Now it’s October and it’s, like, 50 degrees in the nighttime. Yeah, it’s cold.” And my dad was, like, “No.” And my stepmom said that, “It’s her daughter’s father. And the least we can do is let him come in.” So, he came and my dad said, “Whatever you need,” you know, he said, “I got it.” He bought her diapers. Um, they potty trained my daughter very quickly. Cause, we’re not doing diapers, so going up and down the stairs, they’re like– so, they, you know, anything she needed, my friends they, uh, bought her, got her clothes and books and things like that, you know. And, uh, my job had– it was myself and one other woman that lived in Manville that worked for Lord & Taylor’s. So they, uh, fundraised, and they gave, they had saved, like, they had raised, like, maybe, I think it was, like, a thousand dollars that they gave me and said, “This is from all of us and from the Lord & Taylor company, you know, to help you.” And so, you know, we, I applied, I went to FEMA, I went to the Red Cross, I filled out all the paperwork. He couldn’t move, he couldn’t, “Oh I don’t speak English, I can’t read the paperwork,” So I kinda did all that. I took care of everything. And, um, filled out all the paperwork, but, like, a day or two after we, um, had stayed at my parents, we went back to the house to look at everything. And there was nothing left but, like, two batteries in the mud. I mean, they had taken everything away and, you know, and so I got very upset at the whole battery thing. And then my stepmom’s, like, “Oh, are you upset?” And immediately, I’m, like, I just turned it off, I said, “No, I’m not upset. Everything’s fine.” And she’s, like, “Are you sure, you know?” And I’m, like, “No, I’m not crying. Everything’s good.” And I said, “You know, they took everything.”
1:33:59.0
And then my stepmom, you know, was so upset by the whole thing, you know. “All your daughter’s photos. And all the stuff,” And I was like, yep, they took it, it’s okay, and then, you know, we just went back to the house. And then we just winded up moving to Hillsborough. And then, um, that’s when, uh, you know, eventually I got into a shelter. I had a– there was a woman that, um, lived, um, a building over from me. She had two kids, she’d been in a bad relationship, she was an alcoholic. I knew her sister because her sister and I had gone to school together and, um, she was like, “You know,” she said, “I got arrested, and the police gave me this business card and said that I had to go to a shelter.” And she was, like, “Who the hell are they to tell me to go a shelter? I don’t need help. I don’t need this business card. Imagine them making my kids go to the ATM to get out money.” Or if there was an ATM at that, back in the day, I don’t know. But, “To pay my bail to get me out. And they suggested that I move my apartment further away from my father since he’s the abuser.” She lived, like, in building A, and he was, like, two streets over, like, in building E. And, she said, “I can’t believe it,” she said, “I don’t want this card. I don’t need the help, I’ve got this. I can handle this.” And I said, “If you don’t want the card, I’ll take it. And I took and I called them.” And then they eventually started working with me, and helping me, you know, get out and that’s eventually when I left and I went into the shelter. So it kinda all fell into place after then.
What was your decision process? Like, when did you– when did you, you know, come to the decision that you were, like, “Okay, I, I want to leave?”
Um, I think it was– one of the days was, like, there was a day where my daughter, her father was working nights so he would come home at, like, maybe nine or so in the morning. And, um, I was up early in the morning and I was making him dinner and I just got done making oatmeal for my daughter. Um, we had, uh, set up pots and pans that were glass, and they were very heavy. My friend– a friend of mine had given them to us. And, um, so I made her some oatmeal, I left it on the stove. She ate. She was, uh, watching television, and we had a VCR that played videos. And she was playing with the VCR, sticking her hand in there, and, you know, having some fun and I was making dinner and he came home and he yelled at her for playing with the VCR.
1:36:21.7
And she kinda just kept playing with it so he gave her a little swat on the bottom and she came running to me and she said, “Mommy I’m tired, I want to go to bed.” And she had just gotten up, she’d been up maybe an hour. And so I brought her into the bedroom and, you know, I read her a couple stories and I came out and I continued making dinner and she came out, couple of minutes later and said, “Mom,” you know, “can I have some juice.” And I said, “Yeah, I’ll get you juice.” And she was kinda in the, one of the corners of the kitchen, and he turned around and said to her, “If you want juice, get it, get” something about, um, “Next time if you want juice, get it yourself.” And he was yelling at her. And she was, at that time, she was, like, two and a half, maybe two. And I said, “Look,” I said, “I don’t care what you do to me, it doesn’t matter.” I said, “But you will not yell at my daughter. If she wants juice, I will get my daughter juice.”
And he started to laugh. And he just walked away laughing. So I gave her juice. She kinda sat on the couch for a while, you know. Was playing. He was watching television and he just kept saying to her, “Oh look, Monica, you see that, that girl on television?” You know, and he was watching some comedy show in Spanish. He was, like, “She’s fat just like your mom.” And he kept laughing about it and making comments. And she was, I don’t think she had a clue. She was playing. I didn’t get the feeling that, you know, she knew what was going on. But he just kept laughing about it and so at one point in time I was chopping up chicken in the kitchen and he came behind me and he just stood behind me. He didn’t move, he just stood there. His shoes against my shoes and he didn’t say anything. And I was just, like, “You know what, I’ve had enough.”
1:37:51.9
So I turned around and whatever happened, I suddenly– the knife wasn’t cutting the chicken but it was pointing at him. And I said, “Look,” I said, “If you don’t back up you’re gonna get hurt.” And he just, “Yeah, okay.” And I said, “I promise you, you will get hurt. You need to back up.” And he backed up and he just started laughing and he sat down, and, you know, it was kind of then. That’s when I said, “Okay,” that was my decision where I– it didn’t matter what happened to me, it wasn’t a big de– for me it was like I downplayed it. It wasn’t a big deal what was happening to me, but I didn’t want anything to happen to my daughter. I thought him yelling at her was just the beginning, so that’s kind of when I said, “I, I have to get her out of this.” And that was my thought, get her out.
Um, I think, uh, thank you for– thank you for that. And I have some thoughts about where to go next, but I think I’m gonna press pause for right now.
1:38:40.7
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