Natalie Dawkins was a flight attendant for over twenty years. She describes her family and her love of flying and how, after being sexually assaulted by a coworker, she had to renegotiate these relationships.
“I am like a bird. I tell my husband, um, I’m meant to fly! I’m not meant to stay in a cage. As beautiful as the cage may be, and as much as, you know, they give great food or they love their owners, birds are meant to fly! And, you know, I love my family and I love coming back home to them, but I– I’m meant to fly. I was born to fly.”
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: “18 Extraordinary Statistics for Rohypnol,” Health Research Funding, April 3, 2015.
Learn More [2]: “H.R.4137 - 104th Congress (1995-1996): Drug-Induced Rape Prevention and Punishment Act of 1996,” webpage, Congress.gov, September 24, 1996.
Learn More [3]: “Date Rape Drugs,” Office on Women’s Health, April 26, 2019.
Learn More [4]: Andrea Fox, “What to Know about Roofies, a Common Date Rape Drug,” Gov1, April 3, 2018.
Learn More: Elizabeth Blair, “Women Are Speaking Up About Harassment And Abuse, But Why Now?,” NPR, October 27, 2017.
Learn More [2]: “Reporting to Law Enforcement,” RAINN, accessed August 30, 2021.
Learn More [3]: Casey Kelly and University of Maine, “Study Explores Why Women Decide Not to Tell Anyone about Being Sexually Assaulted,” June 28, 2021.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by John Keller
Interview conducted remotely
October 5, 2020
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
Annotations by Kristine Amarante
[00:00:00]
Okay– Okay, so we’re recording now. Um, this is John Keller with coLAB Arts. It is, uh, Monday October 5th, 2020. I am Iocated in the coLAB Arts Studio space, 9 Bayard Street, New Brunswick, New Jersey, and today we are interviewing?
I’m Natalie Dawkings.
Great! Natalie, could you spell your name for me for the record?
Sure. N-A-T-A-L-I-E, last name Dawkins, D-A-W-K-I-N-S.
And what town do you live in currently?
I live in Springfield, New Jersey.
Awesome. And, would you mind sharing your date of birth?
Sure. September 10th, 1976.
Okay, great! So on that note, we’ll, kind of, start from there. Um. Uh, so, uh, are there any, um, kind of, like, stories that you were told? Or anything you were told around– around where and when you were born? What– what that term was?
I– I was born in San Francisco, California.
Mhm hmm.
I was premature. So I was barely three pounds when I was born. Um, before– and the reason why I was premature was ‘cause my mother had had a miscarriage, so I was caught in her scar tissues. So they said that, um, I was in distress so they needed to take me out. So that’s how I was born into the world. [laughs] Um– [tsk] It was a very delicate pregnancy.
Mhm.
My mom who, uh, has recently passed away– she had to, um, pretty much stay still for most of the pregnancy. Um, pre–preemies, the last thing to develop are your lungs, so I had a lot of lung problems growing up. Pneumonia three times– the kind that you can’t get out of bed. Uh, Asthma as a child. Bronchitis, that kind of thing. Um, I grew up with three brothers. Well, the oldest being my half-brother, but, you know, we didn’t know any different. He was just my older brother. And my father’s oldest, um– And a sister. So, there were five of us growing up.
And where were– where were you in the order?
I was my dad’s oldest. My– I had– my mom had, uh, a son from her previous marriage.
Okay. [muttering] So you had younger siblings. What was–
[overlapping] [inaudible]– Caucasian, my father’s Peruvean. So. Mmm– The four of us that are my mother’s and my father’s, two of them are blonde hair, blue eyes? And two of them are olive skin with dark hair.
And where were your– did your– where did your parents grow up? Where were they based out of when you were–
California. My mother grew up– was born and raised in California. Um, her father’s Italian and, mmm, her mother is of European descent, but generations back from the 1700s, they came over to the States.
Mhm.
So.
Mhm.
And– Fought in the revolutionary war.
[00:03:00]
Mhm.
And my father came over when he was a– maybe 17? Um, 16 or 17 from Peru.
Do you remember what city or town, what area he was from, Peru?
He– Lima. Was born in Lima, came to San Francisco, they met in San Francisco.
Mhm hmm. [pause] When you were growing up, was– was there a larger extended family around you? Did you spend time with–
[overlapping] [inaudible] I have twenty-eight first cousins. Yes.
[laughs]
Most of them, my dad’s side.
Alright.
So he’s the youngest of nine, um, and when we were younger, we all were centralized in that San Francisco Bay area, so we would all go over to each other’s houses a lot. Um– [pause] Not anymore, you know, we’re kind of spread out. Most of them still live in California, but, um, it was– it was a tumultuous childhood, so, um, they did not remain married.
Um. When you were, uh, when you were, like, first born, what were– were you living in a house or an apartment or where were your parents?
A flat, they call it. Um.
Yeah.
Like an apartment, um, literally the roofs of the apartments in San Francisco are– can be– have a flat top, so they call them flats. Um, so, like in a– an apartment type situation. Um, then we moved to the suburbs when I was, um, just about to start kindergarten. So that was in East Bay, they call it, so east of the San Francisco Bay.
Um, what were your, kind of like, earliest memories of starting school?
[tsk] I remember pre-school in the city! Uh, it was this– Mission Dolores, um, there’s a lot of missions in California. This was a, it’s no longer open, but it was open then. Um, and there was a guy– Oh geez. Uh, my dad called him “Rubber Ball Paul.” Because, um, he would yell at me and he was, I called him, you know, mean! [laughs] It’s, I– I didn’t want to see him! So I’d lay there and I’d pretend to close my eyes but he could tell I wasn’t sleeping so. He got mad at me for that! Um, and I didn’t know how to do anything else but close my eyes and pretend I was asleep! So I– I got in trouble for that. Um– There were kids that threw sand in my hair. There’s another kid that– a girl that stole the little ponytail holders out of my ponytail. So, eh, preschool was not that great of a memory. Um, kindergarten– first day of kindergarten my mom dropped me off and said “Alright!” Um– Um, “I’ll be right back!” Er, or “I’ll be back.” Something to that effect. So I’m thinking, you know, sit here on this bench and my mom will be right back. Just wait for my mom. Well, she never came! [laughs] So my teacher was like, “You have to come inside now!” Um, and I– I wor– I wa– I lived seven– at the time, seven houses away from our school, so. Like second grade, third grade I walked home with friends.
[00:06:05]
Did, um, uh, how long were your– were your parents married for? When did they, when did they–
Eighteen and a half years. Um– There was physical abuse.
Okay.
Um– You know, verbal abuse, emotional abuse. Uh, some of the children later in life experienced the same thing. I witnessed a lot as a child. Um, my– my older brother was beat. Um– by his stepfather and my father. Um– My dad used to drink heavily before I was born. But, um, there were a lot of, you know, anger issues I guess. I, we’re not really– [stutters] didn’t know how to deal with them. Um– N– he and I have a close relationship today, but it’s, you know, it’s gone up and down. My mother, the one who passed away, um– January of this year, she may have been an undiagnosed bipolar. Um, because she’d be really good for a while and then really out of left field. Just instantly. So we– we kind of grew up with that. But she had to deal with a lot of emotional stuff from her past that, you know, not until I was an adult and a woman did I realize all that she went through, not ever feeling loved, etcetera. So, um, I chose to– Look past and, um, accept her as my mother and love her anyway. Um, which is a good thing, ‘cause we– you know, she left when we were on good terms. Mhm hmm.
Umm. When you– I mean you, uh– as you had mentioned, in your childhood you had a lot of cousins around. Were you– were you also connected with, you know, the older generation? Were your grandparents– have any grandparents that were, kind of, part of your family, or?
Well, my grandfather was– My grandmother was the staple of the family, but she died in 1980. And then, um, my grandfather lived until ‘89. So there– there is definitely respect for the elders, um, in the Latino culture. Um, and then there’s the hierarchy of the children. You know, the– the, um, the eldest kind of took care of the younger ones and– and all that. I think today, uh, there are– Two aunts and one uncle and my dad left. Out of the nine. [pause]
Um. Any connection with your mom’s side of the family or was that all– both those grandparents on your dad’s side?
Uh, both the grandparents from my dad’s side. My mother’s father died when she was 11 from a heart attack. My mother died of a heart attack. Um– And her mother passed away in ‘93. So she was– she was the one my– my grandmother on my mother’s side who came over and visited us as kids. Um, she’d spend, like, the weekend with us in the suburbs.
[00:08:58]
Mhm hmm– [pause] So, um, so as a– a little kid, do you ever remember, um, you know, what, uh, as you’re starting school but– did you have a social network? Were they mostly kids from the neighborhood or was it kids from school that you spent time with, or?
Both. I mean, the kids in the neighborhood were at school and in California, it was very diverse.
Mhm hmm.
Um. My, um, first friend was Japanese. Um, you know, I had a Vietnamese friend, I had Caucasian friends, I had, um– Honduran friends and– we were just kind of all mixed together, um, I didn’t look at color. As a matter of fact– it might sa– sound kind of strange, but I didn’t know that I wasn’t white white? Until high school. [laughs] [overlapping] Yeah, ‘cause–
[overlapping] You mean from your perspective?
Well yeah! I mean, I’d go to a family function with my grandmother from my mom’s side and I’d be the only brown one! You know? I didn’t get until later why she called me her “little Indian” you know? Um– I didn’t speak Spanish growing up! We spoke English in the home because my mom didn’t speak it. I learned Spanish later as an adult when I was 18, so. [clears throat] In high school, all of a sudden people started coming up to me and speaking Spanish! And, uh, assuming that I spoke it and I’m like, “I don’t understand what you’re saying, but you’re cool!” [laughs] So, you know, again, California’s very diverse so you saw all these people, groups and it wasn’t like I was only around white people unless I went to my mom’s side of the family. Or– which she has one sister, by the way. Um. [pause] Or, you know, even around my dad’s family. Like, we were different variations of brown, but, um, my dad had the thick– has the thickest accent. I didn’t even realize that until I moved and lived in Mexico for a couple years and came back. I was teaching down there. And I was like “Oh! My dad has an accent. A very thick one!” [laughs] But, yeah, this is what I grew up hearing so my ear was tuned to it. But– [pause]
Um, so as you were– as you were growing up, did you have any, you know, in like elementary school, did you have any subjects that you really liked, that kind of, like, stuck out to you?
Spelling.
Yeah.
And geography. I like those two. Um– I carried on liking geography through life. Became a flight attendant later. Yeah.
And then, what was, kind of like, that, like– reflecting back on those transitions you, kind of, go through from elementary to middle school, like, you know, what was– were– you had kind of mentioned, you didn’t really– you had a new sense of your identity when you hit high school, but what were those transitions like? Did you, like, kind of, you know, your progression through school, or?
Um. In elementary school I was, um, labeled as “gifted and talented.” So, um, you know, things that came natural as a kid later became pressure in middle school. Uh– I had– I was expected to keep– like a C wouldn’t have been acceptable. Um, but then I think I just kin–it got to be too much come middle school, and I– Didn’t apply myself.
[00:12:10]
Um, as much. Then there was this whole range of new subjects that I could choose to take. So that was kind of cool. You know, I [slap] got– I got interested in mu– music. I– I’ve always been in music since. About 10 I started playing the flute. Um, 11, um– Joined a choir and then, what– what– that carried into middle school as part of the band and then I got to know all, like, the different new set of group of people that were in band and, um– [tsk] So yeah, so, y– you, the whole, like, the world opened up ‘cause all these different elementary schools came to this big giant, uh, junior high, actually. And, um, got to meet new people and– Then from there, um, high school was even bigger! So, uh, continued with band. Sort of stayed in that– but then I was really, I was friends with every type of group. You know, you had, um, stoners. You had people that were hip hop. You had people that were punk. You had people that were preppy. You had people that were Spanish speaking. You had, all– I could talk to all of them! People that were band members. Um, and I– I had no problem floating from group to group and just interacting with everybody. Um– I– I’d never participated in the drinking or the smoking, but I’d hang out with them, you know? Just wasn’t my cup of tea, and nobody pressured me to do so. So that was– fair. And– Um– [pause] You know, uh, culturally, got opened up to new things. Even from– since middle school and had Filipino friends and,, um, I had, uh, this one friend that, uh, um– [tsk] She, um– I went over to her house and had duck for the first time. You know, her mother barely spoke English– she was Asian. And you, you know, but then we all like– I’m Asian myself, but we’re all like New Kids on the Block! You know. So. It didn’t matter! Well, she was Asian and her parents cooked the whole duck with the head on it. Like, we went to her room and talked about our favorite New Kids on the Block member. So, um, so yeah, uh, it wasn’t that– Um, the only part of school that was difficult was– My freshman year of high school, my parents decided they wanted to put me in a private school. So, uh, private school is expensive– they had a lot of children but they were gonna work double shifts and all that. So the second semester of my freshman year I went to a Catholic private school. And it was horrible. It was awful. I mean. Um– From the first day of school, these guys were coming at me like sharks!
[00:15:00]
And then all of their girlfriends were thinking that I was trying to steal their boyfriends. And– I’m like, “I don’t even want’cha boyfriend!” Like, you know. The last– the– the senior class was the last all grey-dude– all-graduate boys class. And then it was co-ed, um, from the classes down. So, like, the entire senior class were– were guys. And, um, this– I– I came from public school. But this school had– had gangs. It had, um, like serious gang fights, like, to the death. It had, um– [tsk] Cussing and drinking and drugs and sex and it was so awful! [laughs] Um, so it got to the point where at first I tried to, like, fit in! You know, uh, I went to this party. I begged my mom to let me go ‘cause I was a good girl! You know, I didn’t– I didn’t do anything wrong. She had no reason not to trust me. And I’m– and she knew better. Because it was the type of party where I should not have been at 14. [tsk] Anyway, um. From– since that party, I– I was bullied, um, every single day I went to school. Um, for what, I don’t know. Just for being the new girl I guess. But, um, I was called– am I allowed to cuss on this?
Sure, yeah.
Okay. Um, you know, I was called “bitch” and “slut” and “ho”. I’d go to the bathroom and girls would tell me that I sit down at the lunch table and ki– um, girls would call me that. Oh, one friend that I was befriended– um, started to hang out with said, you know, “I can’t really hang out with you anymore because, you know, you’re getting it so bad that I’m gonna get it too.” So, I would call my mom and be like, “please take me out!” And she’d take me to Taco Bell and she’s like, “We can’t do this every day.” It was awful. Um, I got good grades! Academically, you know, I had A’s and all that. Um– But I begged them to let me go back to public school. And so sophomore year I started public school again. So that was my experience with bullying.
Mhm. What was your parents' motivation to send you to the Catholic school in the first place? Because you had– you started in public school and then you switched halfway through the year?
I think they were thinking, you know, I’d get a better education, I’d have better chances, um, to get into better schools, that type of a thing.
Mmm.
Um, being in private school. So.
Um, so what was the, you know, around this time also is like when– when, uh, you know, puberty sets in and then, you know, were you– were you involved romantically at all? You know, during this time? Were you starting to date at all, or?
Um, I think I had my first– Like, you know, in– in elementary schools, like, um– “Do you wanna go out? Check the box, yes or no!” You know, and that was– I was 9 years old, you know, when that happened and we would exchange little pencils or something. Um– In the 6th grade, [sigh] um, a boy wanted to go out with me to the movies, so.
[00:18:02]
I went out with my girlfriend and we, like, double-dated. But again, that was– Like, um, nothing serious. [laughs] And then I think I had my first boyfriend when I was 14. So. That’s when I started dating.
Mmm. And, what are you, a freshman in high school, or, yeah?
Mhm hmm.
Um.
I’m a freshman.
Uh. And then, uh– What kinds of– we talked about spelling and geography and, kind of, being real interesting to you. In high school, were you starting to make, like, starting to think about what– what might be next after high school? Or were you starting to make plans about what– what you would do? When school was over? What the next step would be?
[overlapping] Um, yeah I actually was planning, a fashion stylist. I was gonna go to Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising there in San Francisco. Um, I really liked, I don’t know, putting together outfits and dressing my friends for different occasions. Um, taking what I had and making the most out of my wardrobe. Um, I was voted “Best Dressed” my sophomore year. Uh– And so I had an interest in that. I did– I did show interest in that, yeah. I mean, I played a little bit of soccer. And then, like I said, I played the flute. Um, but that’s what I thought I was gonna be. A fashion stylist.
Mhm hmm. So, uh, you– you say you thought that’s what you’re gonna be. What changed about that, did something change? Yeah?
[pause] Um, [sigh] when I was 16, you know, I– I think I was rebelling because my parents were separated, and, uh, I just decided– I think subconsciously the only thing that I could do or had any power over was to not go to school and to stop trying. So I– I– I did? Stop going to school? I almost dropped out my junior year. Um, I was dating this guy, and, uh, you know, he was, um, older than me, out of high school actually. And, um, I was just headed down this downward path. So, um, my mom was going to this new church– we grew up Catholic, but she was going to, um, like a– not a Catholic Church but a Christian-affiliated church. And she said they were having this youth trip to Lake Tahoe. Now, Lake Tahoe is a place, um, that borders Nevada– part of it’s in Nevada, part of it’s in California. And, that’s the only place we ever went to for vacation. We’d go there for summers, we’d go there for winters, um, that was it. We didn’t really go anywhere else for vacation my whole childhood. Beautiful place! But that was the only place we went. So, um– [pause] [tsk] So the– the ski trip, or youth’s winter whatever snow trip was gonna be in Tahoe and she’s like, “Do you wanna go?” So with all that was going on, I said, um, okay, why not? You know, a weekend in Lake Tahoe. So I didn’t know anybody, um.
[00:21:05]
You know, got to know people on the trip. And it was on that trip that I, um– [pause] Like, came to– Um, make a decision to get to know God better. So like, he became real in my life, rather than just like a priest talking to God for me and I started to pray myself. I started to go to church. I started to read the Bible. I started to go to youth group. I started to be involved now with a whole new, um– scene of people that, um, you know, they– they were fun to be around and there was like a clean sense of fun and, um, that’s what kind of changed my life. So my dir– my life took a different direction because now my possibilities weren’t just like, you know, down to fashion industry. Now I’m like, “Oh, well, I can do this! Or I can do that!” And I started to think of, you know, life a little bit bigger I guess you could say. So, um, so that’s what changed my mind about that. Um– [pause] I ended up going to a Missions trip when I was 16. And then I wanted to go back badly. I had this urge to go back because I just loved being around different cultures and different, um, the different ways that people were living, and I wanted to dive into that, and I wanted to know what their foods were like, and I wanted to, like, I, um, I loved interacting with the children. So when I was 18, as soon as I graduated high school, um– I actually ended up graduating early, by the way, I was 17 when I graduated– that– that also kickstarted me into, like, you know, “What the hell am I doing? I need to finish school!” [laughs] So I– I went full speed ahead and I graduated early. Well– Um, I went to Mexico when I was 18 because there was an opportunity for, like, a summer internship for two months. So I went and then I– I got affiliated with this daycare that was a part of the organization and they were looking for, um, pre-K teacher. So I took on the position and I stayed. So the two months that I was gonna stay there turned into two years. And it was an awesome two years. It was, uh– I learned Spanish there. Because I was immersed in it. No one spoke English. [laughs] Except for my roommate. Who was also from California, who I didn’t know before the trip. So she was my co-teacher, I was the head teacher. We hardly knew a lick of Spanish, so we sounded kind of like the kids did when we spoke it. Um. Illiterate! [laughs] But, uh, you know, I caught on after a year. And, um, and they were forgiving so it worked! Um– Yeah, and then, uh, I was gonna stay there. But I ended up coming back, um. The organization I was with– and you can kinda see behind the scenes stuff that I didn’t like.
[00:24:04]
Mmm.
Uh– I ended up coming back to California broken-hearted because it was my life for so long and it was a different life and it was a simple life. You know. It wasn’t all complicated. People didn’t have a lot but they were so much [laughs] more happier! Um– [pause]
So you were broken-hearted when you came back to the US?
Yeah!
Yeah.
Yeah! Also, culture shock! Like, I mean.
Yeah.
The people were talking to me about, like, the newest BMW and I’m like, “The what?” Like, you know, I– I just couldn’t really relate. Took a while. Took a while to, um, acclimate. And I’d walk into a grocery store and there were like thirty-five different kinds of jellies. I was like, “okay,” you know, “this is too much.” You know, like, it was– it was a culture shock! Coming back! Um– [pause] [tsks] So I started working at a coffee shop. [tsk] Some, uh, one of the patrons there said, “Hey, there’s a position at the hospital I work for. Um, for an administrative– medical administration and you should apply!” So I applied and I got the job and– I– I started working at the hospital, and then all of a sudden there they say, “Well we have,” um, “a program– we’re gonna do an accelerated learning program for our admin staff to become medical assistants. And it’s free! We’ll pay for it! This is Kaiser Permenante.” Um. Big, huge HMO on the West Coast, um, medical group. So I– that’s where I was born, I was born in Kaiser. So– Uh– I said “Okay!” So I went and joined the program and I graduated with 100% in my clinicals, 100% in my writtens. Um, the place where I did– the department where I did my internship, which was pediatrics, they wanted to hire me full time. So I worked in pediatrics as a medical assistant! And I had liberty because I made good money. So every time I would have money and time off, which I worked per diem, so I had a– I could choose my schedule. Um, I traveled. And I got a love-uh for traveling. So a friend of mine was gonna go to Europe, she invited me to go with her. Like, one of those backpacking through Europe things in your twenties. So I said “Okay, sure!” So I went and then I– I just said, “You know what? I think I wanna do this long term!” So I got back and I applied for the airlines on a whim. And they called me at the hospital the next day and they said “Hey, um, you got the job!” [laughs] So, and the same day I got the offer for the airline job, my friend in Mexico called me and said “Hey, we have a teaching position for you here!” And I had waited two years to go back to Mexico! The same exact day. Um, so now I’m like “aaaaah!” [laughs] And I’ll never forget someone telling me, “You know what? Mexico will always be there, but you may never have this opportunity again. You just don’t know who you’re gonna meet if you turn down the airline job! You may not ever get that opportunity.”
[00:27:07]
Um, so I took the airline job. [click click] And I was gonna stay there for two years. And, uh, twenty-one years later! [laughs] Um, I did take a break in the– in between time because I– I fainted on a flight with my first born. And I thought that I was done, but then, [sigh] I– I just got really bad, couldn’t– it’s a long– I can get there later but, um, and then September 30th of this year, my airline just closed their doors. So, I’m done with that airline, anyway.
Mmm. Um. What was it– so when you completed the, um, the medical training, how old were you when you completed that training and started to work in a hospital?
20.
And then wa– was it basically right after that that you started working for the airline?
No, I started at 22.
Okay, so you had a couple years working [inaudible]
[overlapping] Yeah. I think I just looked around me one day and I was like, “You know what? Everyone here is older. And has kids that are teenagers. And I’m just not ready to settle yet.” And then I did that European trip and then that was it.
Mmm. Where did you go in Europe?
I went to France. Italy. Spain. Mmm– [pause] I think that’s it.
How long were you there for? Do you remember?
I think two weeks.
Mmm hmm.
[inaudible] Literally. [laughs] Stayin’ in hostels. All that.
So what was– so wha– [coughs] While you’re kind of going through this professional, you know, kind of growth, what was your personal life like at the time? Were you– were you romantically involved with anyone, or were you starting to think about, like, what you wanted your– your personal life to be?
Mmm– [tsk] I had friends that I hung out with, um– I think in Mexico I had my first love. Um, my first true love. And then that’s probably another reason why I was heart-broken when I got back, um, that was hard too. Um. So, no, I didn’t– I wasn’t involved romantically with anyone when I got back. I just, um, you know, met friends along the way and we hung out, and, um, going through– Um– Schooling was very intense because it was a condensed, like, learning, um, accelerated program. So there was a point in time where I didn’t see or talk to anybody because I’d fall asleep literally with the book on my lap or whatever. Um– [pause] So, but yeah, socializing with people my age, but not any romantic involvements. Um– [pause] Mmm– [tsk] Not really until I moved out to Jersey. ‘Cause we had three bases to choose from, um, Newark, New Jersey, Cleveland, Ohio, or Houston, Texas.
[00:30:03]
So out of those three I said, “Okay. Well I think– I think, ‘cause I’ve never been, but I think New Jersey’s the closest to California. It’s diverse, it’s by an ocean, it kind of has mountains from what I hear. Um, they’re not the Sears– [laughs] Um, but it’ll do!” Um. So– so I chose Jersey.
Wha– and, so when did you move? Was it right when you started workin’ for the airline at 22 or did you move later at the time?
No, right then and there.
Right.
Um, when they were based in New Jersey, I kind of, um, transitioned my things over.
Mhm hmm.
Um, had an apartment with another flight attendant. Um– Nooniya? I don’t– I didn’t really start dating– dating maybe, until five years after I moved here. ‘Cause I was traveling the world! You know, I was here, there, everywhere. So–
Nice! So. So, you were kind of living and working during those five years. Then what was the, kind of like, the next big transition in your life? What was the–
Um. I went on a Missions trip– It’s always a foriegn place!
[laughs]
I went on a Missions trip with a– a– I ac– I actually led a team to Guatemala. I was leading the team, I trained the team. And I met this guy in Guatemala! And, uh, we had a long-distance relationship. For a while. And then it didn’t work out. And I could see how different, how many drastic differences there were between us, and, um– Couldn’t really see that happening. So ended that. And, uh, again, I dated– [pause] Kinda, not really. I didn’t really date. I just went out, you know. Casually, um, hung out with friends. Worked. Um. [pause] And then I met my now-husband a year after that relationship. And then we started dating, um,a year after that. Or–
So you were like, 28 or so? 27?
I was 28 when I met him, yeah. And we started dating. 28. Yeah. Good with the age and the timeline! Yeah! [laughs]
[laughs]
That, that must be [inaudible] [overlapping]
[overlapping] And I– I think it’s a professional thing. It’s like, you just start–
[inaudible, overlapping]
tra– I start– I start– I start seeing the whole, kind of like, timeline and story line in my head, so yeah.
Yeah. I was 28 when we met, yeah. And which is funny, because I remember working at the mall. [tsk] Um– Right after I graduated, before I started at the coffee place. And it was Glamour Shots, okay? But it– it was– the mall’s, kind of like, it’s own community family. Before anything opens up, you walk by– I, like, would walk through the department store– Macy’s, and all– I knew all the ladies at the make-up counter. Sometimes they’d do my makeup and we’d talk and chat and this one lady, she said to me when I was 18, “You’re gonna meet your man when you’re 28!” [laughs]
[00:33:00]
[laughs]
She said that! And I didn’t remember that, you know, until after we had been talking, he and I? And I think I dropped the phone, like, when I realized, um, like, things s– things started to click together, you know? So. Yeah, and also too, um, in my industry, uh– People are very jaded. You know. You– you see a lot in this industry. Um, and, like, a good looking guy is kind of like a dime a dozen. Same with the women, you know? Um, if you want something more, you have to really find that in somebody. It’s not easy. Um, so when I first met my now– my hu– my husband, um, I didn’t even notice his looks until well into, we’re dating. And I– one day I was like, “Oh, okay. He’s good looking!” But I wouldn't have stopped twice on the street! Because I think from since becoming a flight attendant, I got this really, um, narrow tunnel vision. I kind of had to. Because, from when you get onto the bus– I didn’t have a car yet, or– or– or the train. Um, from the passengers to the gate agents to the bus drivers to the pilots to the– everybody! It’s like dutdutdutdutdutdutdut! You know, and you kind of just want to, like, live your life! So. I lived a lot like this. So much so that, I– a friend would be seeing me later and be like, “I tried calling your names so many times at the grocery store and you completely ignored me!” You know, like, “I’m sorry! And you know I wanna see you!” You know a– I– I learned to live like that for so long. Um– So, when I realized that he and I met on a lot of compatibility levels, it was like, um, all of a sudden, like, um– what’s the word I’m looking for? A revelation! You know, like, “Well. Okay. There’s something about this guy that’s different.” ‘Cause otherwise I’m real– I was really just cut off. And at one point in time I didn’t even know I wanted to be married! You know, I’m just like, “I’m gonna make a career out of flying! And, yes, I love children but, you know,” I’m just– I was– I was turned off almost, um, from being a flight attendant. And, uh, being– also part of that probably had to do with, like, my parents and all that, but, um. But then, when I met him I just kind of couldn’t deny that this person really matched on so many levels, so. Um, and that’s when we started dating.
How long did you date before you got married?
Three months! No, not before we got married, before he proposed to me.
Okay.
And then, uh, eleven months later we were married.
Um. And what was your– how did you, uh– what was, kind of like, the next phase of your life? You moved in together, or, did you start–
Oh, I was pregnant two months later! And, they said it would be very difficult for me to even conceive. So we didn’t think that that would happen.
[00:35:38]
Um, because I had three infertility diseases. And then on top of it, we were taking two forms of birth control. Because he’s like, “You know, let’s just in case! So we can go travel and– Be newly married and stuff.” I said, “okay.” So two months after I thought I had the flu! And it wasn’t the flu! [laughs] It was my first born! So, um, so yeah. So our– beginning of our marriage I was pregnant. Yeah. I went through all the stages of that and, and uh, we were parents pretty shortly after we were married.
Um, you had said– you had said that you had– you had fainted with your first born? Or did you have– you had passed out at one point?
Ah, yeah, I was about five months pregnant and, uh, I was saying goodbye to the passengers and all of a sudden I fell back into the, uh, flight deck that was behind me. And, um– The doctor said to me “You can’t fly for the rest of your pregnancy.” I had to go see, like, specialists and stuff because of all the reproductive issues I had? I was considered like, um, high risk, so, I saw a lot of, um, like a whole fertility specialist clinic, um, over at St. Barnabas for all my visits. Um, so they said, “Yeah, you’ve gotta stop flying.” Uh. [deep breath] Somebody told me in management which, you know, hindsight’s 20/20. Um, they’re not social workers, they work on the in-flight. They said “If– you want to, if you want to stay– if you want to get Medicaid, the only way you qualify is if you’re unemployed!” I didn’t know any better. I resigned. ‘Cause I didn’t have 30,000 dollars out-of-pocket to pay for, um, a pregnancy, a birth. So. That’s when I resigned. And in my head I’m like, “Okay, well now I’m gonna do the whole stay at home thing, and I’m done with flying and–” I think I applied to a couple places to be a medical assistant, but I didn’t have the like, the– I’d have to, like, uh, just– the California qualifications in here, it would have taken some work to get it updated or whatever. So. Um. [pause] I then had two other kids. Um, finished my degree. I got two degrees, actually. Um, started working in the business fields with one of the degrees, was making good money. And just realized how miserable I was. Absolutely miserable. I was making really good money, but never seeing my kids. And just, there is so much flexibility that comes with flying. You can choose your days off, you’re home for a stretch of like four days in a row. You know. I don’t miss out on a lot even though I’m gone for some nights. I choose when I work and when I don’t! So, um, like, I will never forget when I just had, like, a weekend off and then I had to go back on Monday I’m like, “This is all? This is it?! You just get two days?! What is this!!” You know?
[00:39:03]
[laughs] It– I wasn’t used to that! So, um– [pause] So I said to my husband, I said, um, “You know, I– I’m really miserable,” and he’s like, “Yeah, I know, like, you’re sick all the time.” And I said, “I have to go back to what I love, and the last time that I felt happy and like me is when I was flying.” So, you know, he had to be on board with it, I couldn’t just leave him with all these kids and just go fly again. So, you know, he was like “Well, go for it, go do what you need to do, apply and all that.” So. ‘Cause when– when I– when I– before I married him, he said the one thing that he’ll never do is stop me from being who I am. When I met him, I was a flight attendant. And it’s one of the reasons why I said “yes.” I turned down four proposals before him. Um, because it just, you know, it wasn’t j– it wasn’t a match! Um, really great guys, but. [sigh] It wasn’t a long term match. So, um. [pause] So then, uh– [pause] I applied and when I went to the– everything just fell into place. And I went to the interview and they– I– I think I answered one question and they were like, “You know, we’ve never had such a short interview. You’re hired. Welcome back.” And, um, and that was that! So I went to training which was in– which was in Houston, Texas. Um, and found out I was pregnant! [laughs] With my fourth! I was like, “Why aren’t my uniforms fitting!” Because we had a fitting for the uniforms. And I’m like, “I know I have not gained that much weight since I’ve been in training!” So, things just started to kind of– Um, make sense, and so I went to the Walmart and bought like, four, maybe more, tests. And I had my roommate look at them, ‘cause I couldn’t even bear to look! ‘Cause I’m just going back to work! My youngest was two and she was like, “You know what? You’re pregnant.” I was “Whaaaaaat!” [laughs] So I called’m and he, I said, “I think I’m pregnant,” and he goes, “No you’re not!” And I said, “I think I am.” And he goes, “No you’re not!” [laughs] I was like “No matter what you want, it not to be or be, I am!” [laughs]
[laughs]
You can’t make it not be! And, um– You know, we were on, um, birth control again with the last one. So it happened with our first and it happened with our last. And at– so, like, really at one point I’m just like, I have no say apparently. Whether I try not to or to. So, I was meant to have four! Um. And, uh– So yeah, I graduated with a maternity uniform on. And then I worked as long as I can work until, and then I worked in the office for a couple months.
[00:42:03]
Mmm– And then I was four months home with them. And then by the time I went back to work, he was sleeping through the night. So, and we have a routine! And, you know, I mean– or, we had. It’s not working anymore– But, um, I’ll stack up all the outfits for them and, uh, for a while there I had to write out what he’d put in their lunches. But then he got that, you know, down pat. I– I did everything! Right? And when you do everything, the other person’s just used to you doing everything. So when I left and he– we went 50/50, all of a sudden he had to do things. And it’s not the way I would do’m, but they got done! So, you know, we had a rhythm, we had a rhyme. We made it work. Um. And, um, I’m also pursuing again! Like I– I– I– I belong up in the sky! That’s where my office is. I have to be, um, I went to this yoga thing once where this woman said [tsk] that there’s positive ions and negative ions. And you’re grounded, I think, I think, uh, I forget which is which, but, either way, you know, being grounded, you have, um, one of that and– and up in the sky is the other. And I said “This is gonna sound really crazy, but I spend a lot of, abnormally amount of time in the sky.” [laughs] So I said “No, I have my grounded time too. But without that sky time, I feel really out of balance.”
Mhm.
And she said, “No, that makes perfect sense. Because your own body has been used to that literal science of positive and negative ions. And now you’re only here!” So, um– You know, I– I do feel off kilter now. This, the way that everything’s going with COVID and– and this industry. Um– there are no indus– there are no airline jobs to apply for right now. There’s just, the first time in history. Everybody is furloughing. And everybody is letting go of people. There are no open positions. So I’m stuck! That’s a bad word to look at it, but I– I am like a bird. I tell my husband. Um, I’m meant to fly! I’m not meant to stay in a cage. As beautiful as the cage may be, and as much as, you know, they give great food or they love their owners, birds are meant to fly! And, you know, I love my family and I love coming back home to them, but I– I’m meant to fly. I was born to fly. So. I’m waiting for that day where I’ll go back, but in the meantime I’m homeschooling four kids. So.
How old are your kids?
Uh. six is the youngest, and the oldest is thirteen. She just turned thirteen.
[00:44:54]
What was it like when your first child was born? What was it like becoming a mom for the first time?
Um– [sigh] She was beautiful. She was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. And– But our circumstances were rough. Um– [pause] When I stopped working, we had to move out of the apartment that I had, that we were– that he moved into when we got married. Um, he was in the process of getting his paperwork, um, and later I helped him with that. Um. [pause] His, uh, green card and all that. So, he– there’s only certain jobs he could do. ‘Cause he wanted to do everything on the up and up. He didn’t want to, like, you know, forge– A, like, identification numbers or anything to get a job. So his jobs were mostly construction. We– we didn’t make a lot at all. So we had to move to Elizabeth. And I shared an apartment with a friend. So we had one bedroom and she had one bedroom and I brought my child into that apartment and it was in the middle of an– Probably the worst part of Elizabeth. There was a 10 o’clock curfew. Three people were shot there on the six months that I lived there on my block. Uh, there were needles, um, on the street. There’s people dealing drugs out of the first floor apartment in the corner. There are people being beat up outside. There are constant police. It was just– I felt like I was in jail from day one when we went into clean and I just was crying, crying, crying. I knew there was a roof over my head. But um– My last straw was when I had my child, um, and he was working a job. I’d go outside this big, thick door that slammed shut behind you. But then there’s another door you have to go through. That’s just like the lobby area. So once that door’s closed, right, I can’t go back in. I have to open it with a key and all that. But now I go into the lobby one– or, I open up the– the front door. And I come out with my own, like, about three-months-old baby. And I– wha– as soon as that door shuts behind me, I realized I walked into the middle of a gang fight. And I was like– You know, instant instincts are just like get the hell out of there. And then also, this instinct came over that I would kill for my child. [laughs] Like, I don’t know where it comes from, right? But it's just like, Whoosh! It’s immediate and it’s like you will do anything that it takes to protect your own! So I– I held her like this and I ran as fast as I could out of the trajectory of this fight. And, um, the trajectory, and then once I got safe enough, I thought, around the corner? I– I got into my car. Drove off. And I said– put her in, drove off as quick as I could. And I called him up and I said, “I don’t care what it takes! But we’re getting out of here. I don’t care what it takes.” And so that was it. We found a place in Kenilworth and moved into there. Um. When I– I tried– It was, uh, during the recession, um, 2008.
[00:48:22]
No matter how hard we tried, we couldn’t succeed. [laughs] He had like two jobs and three jobs and– I– I couldn’t keep a job! And, um, it was like, what is going on? We were both skilled people! Um, but no matter how hard we tried, it was like fail after fail after fail. So. We ended up being evicted from that place. And– Um, I had to move out, I think it was ten days? After my daughter was born. Ten or– between ten and fifteen days after my daughter was born. And it was hellish. It was really hellish. But I, was f–
It was your second? Your second child?
Second child, yeah. My daughter, um, my second daughter. So I’m– I’m looking at, like, shelters. You know, and I’m about to give birth to her. That would take both female and male, like, families. Um– And one of his friends allowed us to stay with him for a bit. Until we could get out on our own. So we stayed with him and his family for four months. And that was hellish! [laughs] Um, my daughter was colicky. You know. I had to watch out for certain things while living there. Um, constantly kept my eyes on my two-year-old at the time. Had to keep her happy and thank God she had such a– such a wonderful demeanor about her. Good soul. She, even through her sister’s screaming and my hair was falling out, you know. [laughs] It was– Crazy. And– and Omar was gone about ten hours a day at the time. Because he was going to work and school. So, um– Then we found the place here in Springfield. Um, it was actually a two bedroom that’s across the street from here. But hey, it was a roof over our head and we had a place to call our own. And it was a nice neighborhood and it just felt great. So we brought my son into, my third son, into the world here. ‘Cause that– he and his sister are Irish twins. They’re very close apart in age which, again, it’s one of those things where you try all your can, but I have no say in certain things as to– But, yeah, he came and I was worried that he was gonna– well, Omar was like, “What if he’s as–” I was like, “Don’t even say it! Don’t even say it!” But he– he was, I called him my Prozac Baby. Because I– I had never taken antidepressants, but it was such a joy. He was just so– such a pleasure.
[00:51:04]
He would just– Bring me so much peace and joy. Um– [pause] And then, that’s when the whole thing happened, I went back to flying and, um, found out I was pregnant. And when I was pregnant with the last one, the realty management group on this street, um, I know the woman, ‘cause that’s who I talked to when I came to the apartment. And she said, “Hey, this place is opening up. It’s a townhome. It's a three bedroom, two-and-a-half bath. And I know you’re on your fourth child.” [laughs] So, um, “You know, if you want it, you gotta apply, like, soon. Like, now.” So that day I got all my paperwork together, walked into the office the next day and said “Here you go.” And we got it, so we’ve been here ever since.
Okay. So that would have been about six years?
Yup, that was, um, well, yeah! Uh, we moved– Um, the day after Thanksgiving and he was born the end of December. About a month later. Uh, a little over six years, going on seven in Dec– in November.
Um. So were you– were you flying, kind of, regularly until COVID hit? And then COVID is the first thing that, kind of, interrupted– most recently interrupted you?
In 2018, um, there were– I had about five months where I was furloughed.
Okay.
See, I started in ‘99. I left in ‘07. And then I didn’t come back until 2013. So when I came back, I lost all of my seniority. I had to start from the bottom again. So, because I started in 2013 to 2019 when they did their furloughs, I was kind of on the bottom. I– they don’t go back to me, um, to 1999, so I had five months where I didn’t work then. But, um, I got inaugurated and I left it as President in January of 2019 and I started my term. So– of the union– um, my Flight Attendant Union that is over two different airlines– my airlines’n, and another one. So. Um. So I stayed involved even during the furlough with that and going to different conferences and meetings and such, um, during those five months. Um, and then– Went back to work and then COVID hit. So.
How did, uh, how did you begin to get involved in the union work? Was that something that had been– that you had been involved with from the beginning, or was that something that– how does it work, I guess? I don’t know much about that really–
Well most– for the most part people are like, “Oh, union does nothing for us!” Right? Like, “I have a union but they don’t ever do anything!”
Yeah.
Well, then– I started, like, I’m very– my father said I should have always been a lawyer. I’m very into justice. That’s the one thing I will open up my mouth for. Sometimes uninvitedly– So, but. Um. [tsk] I– I wanted to make a difference. You know, I wanted to help flight attendants out. I wanted– I don’t, you know. You only hear things, but it’s not until you’re in it if you really know what is and what isn’t.
[00:54:16]
So, when the opportunity came and they were nominating people for President, I didn’t ever want to be President. Like, I would have been vice-president. But, um– Somebody convinced me to run as president and, um, enough people voted for me where I got elected as such. And then I got to see the inside! Yeah, I got to say, “Okay this is– this is what we’re doing.” And then it got to be even bigger than that. Let’s go back into the history of the unions! If it wasn’t for unions, then XYZ would never be. You know? And how important they are, and, um, I mean, I have gone through a lot of, um, turmoil? Um, I guess you could say. I’ve been able to stomach it? But from– since the day I was inaugurated, people have said all sorts of stuff and fought all sorts of things and– These are the same people that I’m helping, right? Um, but I stuck through it ‘cause I knew that couldn’t be the consensus of the majority. And it’s not, they’re just always the most vocal. Um, Facebook is horrible for that, you know? And I got talked about, ripped apart, really basically to shreds. Um, and– And! Let’s– let’s compare that to before all of being President. I have a good reputation! Right? Like, there’s not too many people I don’t get along with, um, pilots or flight attendants. So, that was, uh, that was very foreign to me. And, um, but I just– I kept battling and– Uh, I’m glad that I did. [sigh] Because I– I’ve learned a lot. I got to lobby on Capital Hill. I– I now am Legislative Chair, um, um– for the– this Union and I– I– I’ll continue to be so, um, until my term is up, which is January 2022? Um, but it’s opened up my eyes to so many different things. And– and this particular union doesn’t just represent flight attendants. They represent– as a matter of fact, flight attendants are about this much of it. They’re– they’re– we’re, like, about 1000 something members out of like 600,000 members of all different trades, from military to nurses to machinists to, um, mechanics. You name it. Um, boat builders, train builders. Um– So– so yeah. I’m glad that I did and, now that my company is no more, I’m still able to serve as President because the other airline is still alive, um, until my term’s done, as long as I pay dues. So some people are like, you know, “why are you staying?” You know. People are like, you know, “you’ve been through so much there!” You know, “what, you’re not even at the airline anymore!” I know! But, you know. I still want to help flight attendants and I’m going to finish my term!
[00:57:07]
Come hell or high water, I’m gonna finish my term because I have been through so much! My children used to pray at night and be like, “And please help mommy with those mean people!” Like, you know! [laughs] I mean! I’ve been so much. I’m gonna finish this out, so. Yeah! [pause]
Um. What were the circumstances around what brought you to Center for Empowerment?
Um– [pause] In 2016– I went on an overnight. And, uh, very typical overnight, you know, you– [pause] When I say typical, typical means– [sigh] We get in kind of late for the most part– for the most part, not always. When you get in, usually the only places that are open are bars. Okay, that you wanna find one that serves food. Because you’re hungry. We work, let’s say, typically, twelve hours a day? But I’ll only get paid, and even pilots, but they get paid five times as much as I do, maybe three, um, for your flight hours. So, when that main cabin door closes? To when it opens again. That’s when you get paid. So I’ll, like I said, I could work a twelve hour day, generally speaking, and get paid for five that day, right? So you’re tired! You’re tired by the end of the day. You’re hungry. Um, sometimes there’s no sit. Meaning, in between flight, there’s no time, um, you just go and go and go and go. So, by the end of the day you’re done. You just want to defuse. You want to eat. Uh, we have such crazy eating schedules, you forget to eat sometimes until you’re absolutely starving. Um, you can bring little snacks and stuff like that. Um, you know, yogurts or whatever. Uh, so you get into a place and you go and eat with your crew. Um– Now, in my, um, entity, um, it’s the pilots and I. The certain amount of seats and under, you only need a certain– you need a certain amount of flight attendants according to how many seats a plane has. So I typically worked a fifty-seater. Um– Uh, airplane. In my regional entity, you get higher seniority– quicker? Your– your– your seniority helps you get lines you want quicker than if you’re at the wide bodies and you’re doing these Trans-Atlantic flights and you’ll be on reserve for the rest of your life. You hope to get a line and a schedule and have a normal life. In my entity. That’s the hope, anyway. As a flight attendant.
[01:00:00]
So I got into, um, our overnight. And, um– [pause] We were sitting outside the hotel. There’s a– there was a nice enough weather where can do that and it was October. And, uh– Early October. And we’re sitting on these, like, picnic tables. The first officer was smoking, having a smoke before we went and had been walking down towards the– Whatever. Downtown bar scene area. Walking distance. Um, and the captain, who I’ve known–I don’t think I’ve ever flown with him, but I’ve seen him around– very congenial, very friendly, kind of like, everybody likes him, you know. He’s a guy’s guy. He has, um, an airline publication that people now read. So he’s known. And yeah, oh yeah, he’s a nice guy! But you’re gonna hear about him. So I thought the same thing! And he said, um, he had brought a flask with him from home. He said, “Hey, this is some Irish whiskey that I brought from home,” blah blah blah, um, “Go ahead and have a sip!” And I was like, “nah, no thanks.” Um, “I don’t like Irish whiskey.” And, you know. I am seasoned enough to know? What I like and what I don’t like? What I can take and what I can’t take? Um, I’ve been drinking for a couple decades now? Alright, so I know what my body can tolerate, right? So– He kept on insisting and I’m like “Ugh, I’m just gonna try one little taste, but.” And I tasted it and sure enough, I’m like bleeeh. “I don’t really like that.” So, we walked from that outside the hotel to the bar area and by the time I got to the bar area, I’m feeling a little tipsy, which is not, um, common. Not regular. Not normal. Because I– I didn’t have that much to drink. So then we got into the bar? Right, things are starting to kind of turn– [pause] Blurry. Right? We go to the bar, I sat down. But I’m still conscious enough, so I’m thinking “Huh.” And I know I hadn’t eaten, but again, I had not eaten before, which is typical. And– and– and I can hold at least– Four drinks. Meaning like, you know, a shot of something or whatever. And– but I didn’t ha– I didn’t even have that much. But I’m sayin’, that’s how much I can until I’m starting to feel something. Even without food! So I sit down at the bar? And I had, um, a jack and diet coke.
[01:03:00]
And I like bourbon. Um. [pause] I mean, I drank that, and I’m about to start my second one. He’s paying for it. And that’s the last thing that I remember. Um, [pause] Starting my second drink. So– I wake up. I don’t know where I am. I don’t even know if I’m in my hotel. I don’t even know where– everything is just. First thing is– well, first I’m scared because, uh– I’m tucked in. Like a cocoon. And I don’t like blankets tucked in. I– I– I even always untuck the hotel sheets, first thing I do, that’s the first thing that I do. [inaudible] So. I’m, like, laying down. Totally tucked up to here. All the way down. So I’m just like, “What the hell is going on? Where am I?” So I rip that off. And– I realize now I’m in a hotel room! I also realize that I have nothing on from the bottom down. [pause] And. I don’t know if I’m in my hotel room. Am I in one of my crew members' hotel rooms? Where am I? So I look over and I start to recognize my bag. I see a man’s watch on the nightstand. I don’t know if somebody’s in the room or in the bathroom or what. My heart is pumping. And I realize I think I’m here by myself. So I picked up the hotel phone and I called my captain’s room. And I said “I’m gonna ask if this is his watch, and if it is, then obviously he was here.” So I said, “Did you leave your watch?” He’s like, it’s like two or three in the morning. He’s like, you know, groggily answering me “Yes.” I said, “Okay. What the fuck happened?” And he said, he goes on to say that I was sitting at the bar, and I threw up into my cup, not just once, but twice. And at that point the bartender said, “You can’t be doing this. You have to go to the bathroom.” I went to the bathroom, I was there for a long time. Maybe I was passed out, I don’t know. And he said that somebody, well, they asked somebody to go check on me. So then they told him that she needs help. So they– they, meaning the captain and the first officer, my crew came and helped me out. And then they carried me to the hotel van that they had called. So the hotel– the bartender’s seen me drunk, the hotel van driver’s seen me being carried.
[01:06:03]
Then I get to the hotel and the front lobby desk person is there. Now they carry me to my room. Right, all the way down the hall to the elevator, up two floors. At my door, he tells the first officer “It’s okay, I got her. We’re good, have a good night.” Um– [pause] And then– [pause] Oof! Hold on. Okay. [laughs] [pause] [sniffing, crying] He does whatever he does. [pause] And I’m thinking “I was unconscious.” Because if I ever get to the point where I have too much to drink, I’m just gonna pass out. I– I’m– I usually know that I’m going to sleep, but in this case, I don’t remember anything. Um– [pause] So– I– I asked him “Did we fuck?” And he said “Yes.” And I said “I don’t remember anything.” And he said– [pause] He said that, “You begged me not to go. You wouldn’t take no for an answer.” And, um– [pause] He said “I’ll come by and I’ll get my watch later.” So now, a– at the time I wear contacts. And I– I go into the bathroom. All my stuff is out. Like, he brushed my teeth. Took out my contacts? He charged my phone. And, um– [pause] So then I– I didn’t really know what to do. Um, I took a cotton swab that I had and I swabbed myself just in case. I put it inside the bag that comes in the ice bucket. And I put that away in my, um, my suitcase. And then I call my friend who was a pilot. Female pilot. And I told her what happened. And she said “Oh my God, Nat. You can call the police right now.” And I said “Yeah, I know.” Um. But we talked about it for a long time because– she’s a female pilot and she knows– It’s my word against his, you know. This is a, a nice guy! Right? And I didn’t wanna be known as, “Oh that’s the flight attendant that,” you know, “cried rape!” “Oh, don’t talk to her, oh yeah, you know, she said this and she’s trying to ruin him, and.” [sniff] All these thoughts were coming through my head and I’m like I– I just– I want to do my job.
[01:09:05]
I– I want to fly. I love flying. I don’t want that to be tainted or changed or affected. I want to continue to fly! So I made [voice breaks] a decision not to say anything. [sniff] And I had to pretend like everything was okay, ‘cause I still had to fly with him for two more days. So he– Came into my room. And again, I’m like pretending, right? That everything is fine. [sniff] So– He’s sitting there, like, I needed to take a shower, [voice breaks] I just wanted to wash all of this off me. And. He sat there. So– I close the door. Took a shower. Came out. He’s like, “you wanna go grab something downstairs?” You know, the, um, hotels usually have some kind of breakfast buffet or whatever. [sigh] My mind is going like a mile a minute, like, you know, I watch these– Crime shows or whatever. [sniff] My husband always gets mad because I fig– I solve them. And, but, you know, I’m like, “He probably wants to be seen in public with me. Probably wants it to seem like everything’s okay and he’s probably also feeling it out to see my reaction, my responses.” So I go down there but I feel sick. And I’m like “I– I gotta, I gotta go.” I got a ginger ale and I went back up to my room. And I felt really sick, like physically sick. [sniffs] So– [pause] I don’t know– [pause] I go down to the van. The van is not until late afternoon, almost evening. And I go to the van early because I knew that the first officer would be there because he’s a smoker and smokers always go down there early to get in a smoke or whatever. [sniff] So I said to him, “Don’t ever, ever leave your flight attendant alone like that again. Especially! In the state that I was in.” And he was, um, he’s Korean and he was like “Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.” [pause] And that’s all I said. [pause] And– Now we’re in the next overnight. [tsk] And, um, I didn’t want to go out, but part of me is like– [sigh] Like, I just didn’t know what to do! If I was gonna keep up the charades then I’d have to go out. I don’t want to drink, I don’t even want to see his face. Um. I want to see how he reacts, though. [sigh]
[01:12:00]
So I knew the first officer would be there– [pause] I go to this bar. And there’s a girl there that had been drinking a lot. And– She left her drink and went out to go talk to whomever her coworkers or friends, I don’t know who. And I said, “She better not leave her drink or she’s gonna be roofied. Like how you roofied me last night.” And he goes, “Oh yeah, sorry about that.” And then, um, the bartender was talking about something about being Irish, and I said “Oh, I wouldn’t know, I’m not Irish.” And he goes, “Oh, well you were last night!” And so I– I– I remembered that. And then– I we–I went back to the room and so did the first officer. And he’s like, “Oh, come on guys, let’s go out and like–”No. So now the third day. Right. We get into Chicago. I’m– they call it “dead heading” on a flight back home. You know, technically on the job but you’re not actually working the flight, you’re just transported and whatever for your flight. So I’m dead heading back from Newark– uhh, Chicago back home to Newark. And I can’t wait to get the hell off the plane and all I want to do is just go, just want to get out. And– [pause] He calls me during the flight. And when he’s calling me, the first officer can hear the conversation. The flight deck can hear the conversation that he’s calling cabin. And he’s like, “Hey, when we get into Chicago, do you wanna go out to lunch?” I’m like, “No, I gotta catch a flight. I gotta go.” And he was like “No, you have, like, xyz amount of time before your xyz number flight.” Like he knew what flight I was on. So. [sigh] I said ugh. I’m sitting there, like, “Fine.” So we get into Chicago. I thought that the first officer would be coming but he bailed out and went to go take a smoke outside the airport. So now I’m with this guy. He stops off at the bathroom. And he’s like, “can you watch my bags?” Whatever. He goes in, he comes out. He said “See? I’m not quick about everything, now am I?” And he said– no, “I was quick about that, but I’m not quick about everything.” Something like that. And I said “I wouldn’t know, would I? I wouldn’t fucking know. I don’t remember anything.” And he goes “Oh, are you upset?” I was like, “I don’t know how to feel.” So then, now we’re standing in line for our food and he said, “You know, I’m really sorry. I was drunk, too.” And, um, I said, “This is what I don’t understand.” I said, “I didn’t throw up once. But I threw up twice? Like, once would have been enough to know that I was intoxicated, right? So how would I have been able to give consent if you saw me throw up into my cup twice?”
[01:15:09]
And that’s when he said, “Oh, I’m really sorry. You know I was drunk too, I feel really bad.” That’s what he said. [pause] So now we’re sitting down. I have no appetite. Don’t even know, I just wanna get out. And– [pause] All of a sudden that Irish comment came back. And I said wait a minute– He’s, he’s Irish. I said, “Did you cum inside of me?” and he said, “Yeah, but don’t worry.” Um. [pause] “Um– Those boys don’t work,” or something like that. Something to that effect, like he had, um, an operation, so. That, that was, that was his comment. And I was like, “Are you kidding me right now? Are you kidding me right now?” He’s like, I– I was just like, you know, in my head I’m thinking, “I don’t know where you’ve been! I don’t know who you’ve been with! I don’t know if you do this all the time! I mean, I’m married, I have four kids!” So now I’m, like, thinking in my head, I’ve gotta go back, I’ve gotta get tested! I’m just like, I have no words. I have no words. And– I’m really disgusted. I just want to get out of this– Presence. And I– I get on the plane and I think, I just– Was numb. Numb. I g– I landed and I didn’t want to go home. ‘Cause how am I gonna act like everything is normal? Um, when it’s so not? And I called my friend and I’m like, “I don’t wanna go home,” and she’s like, “I’m so sorry, honey.” [sigh] You know, like I said, I’ve seen a lot in this industry. And I’m not gonna say that– People are perfect, married or not. But it’s one thing to give consent and to be completely taken advantage of. Violated. And I think, all the time, like, in the beginning especially I was very angry. Because, um, I consider myself somewhat of a strong person? So, like, if I was conscious or able to at all, I would have fought. Um, but I didn’t even have that opportunity, um, I had zero control over the whole situation. All I could do was just lie there. Not even knowing. So. Um– [pause] I have a friend who works for, like, a main line they call it, like, the bigger planes and the bigger, longer flights on the. She’s a pilot for United and, um.
[01:18:01]
Good friend of mine, we used to work together and I said. Uh, I told her what happened and she was like, you know, encouraging me to say something but I wouldn’t for a long time. And I told her why. Anyways. I run into him every now and then? Because we still work in the same industry together. And every time I see him he’s like so– just– [pause] Ugh, I don’t even have the words to explain it. [pause] Like he sent chills up my spine. And he would, like, rub my arm or caress me sort of, or give me a hug, and I would just be like “I– Want to be anywhere else but here right now.” And– he always did this in a public place, like, in the crew room where other people could see, you know. I couldn’t, like, do what I wanted to do, like, hit him or something. [sigh] One time he was a captain for a friend of mine, my very best friend’s flight, and she, um– She knew what was going on and I saw him come on and I wanted to get off so I said, “I’ll see you later,” and I had my bag and he stood in the entrance of the door, the main cabin door. And he’s like, “you can’t leave until you give me a hug,” and I was like, “really?” So I just kind of went, leaned up against him and he was like, “No, that wasn’t a hug.” I said, “Move the fuck out of the way.” And so he moved out of the way. And so I run into him every now and then. And the last time I saw him was December of, um– 2018. And he said that he was hired on to United Mainline. And so he wouldn’t be at my Institute anymore and he was gonna start training in January, blah blah blah. And I went home and I was driving home and thinking, “You know, he gets to go on with his life. He gets to succeed, he gets to go higher. He gets to do whatever he’s gonna do. Make money, a lot of money! And potentially harm other people. And thinks nothing of it.” I said, “I am not okay with that.” And another aspect of it too is, um– [pause] You know, I have daughters. So. If anything remotely close to this happened to either one of them, in a heartbeat I would pursue it to the fullest degree. So in talking to my friend, the one at United, and now she has a friend– Who’s in the training department at United. And they’re close. And her friend’s sister works in the federal level.
[01:21:07]
Um. [pause] I don’t know if she’s a district attorney or what. But she– she has a position. And she– she’s worked with several cases of, um, sexual assault. And her husband is like, they call him “Dr. Death.” He’s retired now, but he’s like a– a– an– an FBI expert for ABC or something and he– he solves cases. He gets the bad guy, right? So they’re– they’re this dynamic duo, way up there team. And she– she had given me her number and said, “Whenever you’re ready just call her. Talk to her.” So, um, I had, um– I had basically been at that point where I was ready. And I called her and we were talking and she was like “I’m so sorry.” She was like, basic– she– she said– what she said to me is, in all the years she’s done that, she can see that this is his MO. That, um, she said, “I want you to know that this is very unlikely to ever happen to you again because men don’t think like that.” She said “He’s psychotic. He’s a monster.” And, um, “Everything that you’re saying, like the whole toothbrush and all of that, that’s his MO. And it’s very methodical. And.” She said that I needed to get myself into some place that could help me. Like a rape crisis center. And, um, she’s in D.C. so she doesn’t really know my area. But she’s like– she’s like, “Look it up. Find what’s around you.” So I found, like, three in my area and Center for Empowerment was one of them. At first they didn’t answer their phone, so I was gonna go on. But then I called them back and it’s a good thing I did, because I really found a lot of help there through [inaudible] therapy and individual therapy, group therapy. It’s been, um– a lifesaver. And, uh, like I did the 5K run? With [unclear]. My whole family came. And my– [pause] Um. [pause] 11 year old, at the time, knew what a marathon was, and she was like “What is the marathon for?” Like, “What is the theme?” Like, she knew better. [sigh] So my husband looked at me and I– Was like, “Okay. Let’s go out.” So I took her out. And I explained it to her in such a way that she can– [pause] Um– Process it. And that, and then in turn allowed her to tell me what was going on with this boy at school that was harassing her. And she was able to stick up for herself. So then from that point, you know, I said, “Okay, I think I’m ready to report this.”
[01:24:17]
So I– I went to, had to fly back to West Virginia by myself. I fly for a living, but I’ll tell you what, I almost had a panic attack. People– I’ve helped people with panic attacks on the plane, and here I was. I didn’t wanna go. Um. [pause] The flight was on main– I know what it was. I had to go to Phoenix. So, because I was dropped off in Phoenix– no, not Phoenix, Philly! Um. ‘Cause there’s no flights out of here. So I had to go to Philly. So, because I was dropped off in Philly, um, I couldn’t just run away. Right? I live nearby Newark Airport. I could have escaped. But I was already in Philly, so I was dropped off there. And then the plane was on maintenance. Like, ugh. So I get there. I– I, um, recorded my testimony to the FBI. That’s the first place that I went because. There’s two aspects. There’s the federal part, where he has an illegal substance. And he’s flying as a pilot, he’s in the air, that’s a whole nother jurisdiction. And then I had to come back. By myself. And go to the law enforcement. And give my report there. Okay, so I didn’t hear anything for a long time. Long time. And I’m talking to my mom. And– Either in November or December, um, of last year. She said, “Natalie, you really have to at least call. At least call your friend, the one that works in D.C., and see what she says. You should call the department or whatever.” ‘Cause I didn’t want to hear, okay, that, um, there’s nothing we can do. I didn’t want to hear that. So– ’cause I had to go through a lot to even report that! I understand it was– he– three years later that I reported it. So about a year after, um, I reported it, I called up and– um, I was given the runaround, ‘cause the guy that first took my report was now promoted so this other guy called me back and– He wasn’t really giving me any answers, he basically just said that it was brought to the district attorney’s office, but nothing really happened from it. And I’m like, “Well did you guys interview anybody?” Um, he didn’t have any answers for me. And I said, you know, I said “He’s– he’s very likely to do this again. And then what? Then it comes back to your department that it was reported once before but you guys didn’t do anything?” Um. So I– I had– I was consulting my friend who works in D.C. and she was like, you know, this guy’s an idiot. He shouldn’t even be in the justice department.
[01:27:07]
So. [sigh] Then I wanted to talk to the Chief of Police. I wanted to get answers right from him, like, you know, “What’s going on with your department? I’d like to know if anybody pursued it, blah blah blah.” He won’t call me back. For the life of me. Um, I had Cheyenne as an advocate call on my behalf to say, “Somebody’s trying to call you. Would you please return her phone call.” Nothing. Nothing nothing nothing. Completely ignored me. I got a hold of the FBI guy I first talked to who was now transported to Phoenix, Arizona, and he tried to get a hold of somebody in the West Virginia office. And all he can say is that they did go to United and United said, “We’ll take it from here,” because, um, whoever investigates that. But that’s all I know. So I went to my employer and I gave a report to HR, but this guy doesn’t work in my department anymore, he’s in another HR. Um. So. [sigh] It’s just discouraging. You know. I– I could go to his HR and get a report. Um, I think my next move is to call the Me Too Movement and see what they advise. I know that they have lawyers that could help. But that’s where it’s at right now. And, in the mean time, this guy still has a job. His– Pilot’s Union worked out a deal where they will not be furloughed because they’re going to reduce their hours and, like, share their workload or whatever. So he still gets to fly. He gets away scot-free. Um, he’s since been divorced since we were together. Um– That was his second wife. He’s had a couple girlfriends since. And then I have to run into his freaking publication all the time because people read it and it pops up on my feed– not like I’m subscribed to it. But. [pause] [sigh] Yeah. That’s what happened with that. [pause]
So uh– Um. When was the– When did you first e– uh, encounter– uh, so, um, the event happened in 2016? That’s when he–
mhm hmm–
it all happened?
Mhm hmm.
And then, um. How much time went by before you started– outside of the– the close friend that you had expressed to it immediately, how much time had gone by before you started to– started to open up about it?
Um– [sigh] [pause] About– [pause] Um, let me think. [pause] Oh, I can’t even remember it all. Not too long after that. [pause] I– told my husband. [pause] And explained to him. He knows how much– I don’t really have to tell him. He knows how much I love this job and I explained to him the whys. And you know, um, something came– like I’m part of these different groups and chats and whatever. Um. Online.
[01:30:20]
And there came out this story on– from JetBlue where two flight attendants accused a couple pilots of assaulting them, getting them drunk and assaulting them. And I saw all of this feedback of, “oh, that’s messed up,” and “I don’t think that’s true,” and, you know, “they’re probably lying, they probably want attention and.” All this stuff, like, kept coming out and I was like, “You see? That’s why I don’t want to say anything!” But then it turns out that they actually weren’t telling the truth! And– That didn’t help me at all! I’m like, well great! Um. Now I’m really not gonna say anything! So, you know, I explained to him why and stuff and he’s like “I– Respect your decision, I don’t agree with it. But I respect your decision.” Um. So I told him. It was really hard to talk about. Um– I couldn’t talk about it without convulsing shaking for the longest time. I think it was, like– Two years, three years after, where I would still convulse. Like from the inside out, shake when I brought it up. Um, since being at the Center for Empowerment has helped. You know. Um. Through individual therapy and stuff, I don’t get like that. I’ve had night terrors. In the middle of the night, um, apparently I’m screaming something out. And my husband has to, like, wake me up out of it. Got that. Um– That’s another thing that would make me mad. ‘Cause I didn’t ask for any of this. You know, why do I have to go through all this? It’s not me who did it. I didn’t ask for that. Right? [pause] So the effects suck, because the victim has to deal. You know? And, um– [pause] So yeah, so, [sigh] eventually my next step will be calling Me Too, but, for now I keep myself busy. Like I– I’m– was mourning the loss of my mother. And then I was mourning the whole, like, Chief of Police just– Not even caring. And then COVID. And then losing my job. And now I have to focus on, I guess my home because, to be honest, I am almost to the point of OCD. It’s hard to be OCD before kids, so I’m not as bad anymore. But everything has its place.
[01:33:06]
Mhm hmm.
The past four years? My house has gone– To crap! You know, I– I have to, um– I mean, it’s an organized mess, but it’s a mess! And I– I really have to get my house in order. So. That’s my focus. [tsk] I mean, that and homeschooling the kids. That’s all I can focus on right now. And then when I’m done with that, maybe I can go to the next thing. Um. But I have to keep my focus on something or I’m gonna go mad, you know? I’m gonna go mad. I– I can’t even go in an airplane and sleep right now. Like, I’d go to a hotel and it’d be nice and pristine and everything was nice and fresh and crisp. I loved it! I don’t even have that right now! You know? So– Before we knew that, that our last day was coming, I took off and I went everywhere! And you know what? Um. My husband didn’t stop me. Because he knew. I need to do this. I had some closure, and I was able to go here and to go there! And go here and go there! Well, I can’t go anywhere right now. So.
[01:34:21]