South Brunswick resident Mariam Ali speaks candidly about their experiences and how they found the Center for Empowerment after they were the victim of sexual assault in 2018. They discuss how they stay connected with the project and the importance that the arts have played in their life.
“You know, I– I could have, I could have got into the gory details that sometimes I do need to go into. Or, I could have, you know, laid out every, um, gold star that I’ve picked up along the way on this, like, healing journey. Like, there’s so many ways to tell this and, like, not one of them– is more true than the other. I just, I’m like. Like, this is what keeps me grateful, and that’s why I want to share. Like, just that all the times that I just thought I couldn’t take anymore. Like, there will be more times like that in the future but, like, in between, like, I can only listen to– to my interpretation of things.”
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: “English Language Learners and School Enrollment” (New Jersey Department of Education, n.d.).
Learn More [2]: Nicholas V. Montalto, “Out of the Many, One: Integrating Immigrants in New Jersey” (National Immigration Forum, 2006).
Learn More [3]: “The Difference between the Every Student Succeeds Act and No Child Left Behind,” Understood.org, accessed August 23, 2021.
Learn More: “Why Do Adults Fail to Protect Children from Sexual Abuse?,” 1in6.Org (blog), accessed August 24, 2021.
Learn More [2]: Jason Whiting, “How Denial and Victim Blaming Keep Sexual Assault Hidden,” Institute for Family Studies, January 7, 2019.
Learn More [3]: “NJCASA | The New Jersey Coalition Against Sexual Assault,” NJCASA, accessed August 24, 2021.
Learn More [2]: “Center for Empowerment,” accessed August 24, 2021.
Learn More [3]: “Find Help,” NJCASA, accessed August 24, 2021.
Learn More [4]: Robin Bleiweis and Osub Ahmed, “Ensuring Domestic Violence Survivors’ Safety,” Center for American Progress, August 10, 2020.
Learn More [5]: “Victim Assistance Resources,” Middlesex County Public Safety and Health, accessed August 24, 2021.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by John Keller
Interview conducted remotely
December 18, 2020
Transcription by Hannah M’Lynn
Annotations by Cara del Gaudio
[00:00:00]
Great, so, um, uh, we’re recording now. And just as a reminder to you, uh, feel free to stop whenever– whenever you need a break or whatever you wanna, you know, grab something to drink or anything like that, we can stop at any time. Which, [inaudible]. Anyway, this is John Keller, um, with coLAB Arts. Um, I am, uh, located in my, uh, residence in New Brunswick, New Jersey. [cough] And today we’re interviewing?
Mariam Ali.
Okay. And, uh. The date today is– December 18th, 2020. Uh, we’re doing this, uh, interview– oral history interview on a Zoom call because, uh, social distancing, um, and– Mariam, where are you located?
I’m in South Brunswick, New Jersey.
I see. And Mariam, for the record, could you spell your name?
Yeah, my name is M-A-R-I-A-M, and my last name is A-L-I.
Great. Thank you very much. Uh, so we’ll just kind of get into it. Um, the first question is, when were you born?
I was born on April 2nd, 1998 in Astoria, Queens.
Nice. Um, when you were born, were there any kind of, or, er, as you’ve heard over your lifetime, are there any kind of stories around the day of your birth, or?
Uh– I just know that, um, I was born in– Columbia Hospital? Like one of the University ones. And my parents used to joke that, like, I would go to that college, you know. I was born there, graduate there.
Um, and when you were born, what was the– what was your family structure like? What was– what was your family unit?
So I have an older sister. She was born in Egypt. And, um– We moved there after I was born when I was like 2? But, um, it’s– when I was born it was my mom, my sister, and my dad, uh, all in an apartment in Astoria.
Cool! Um, what– what brought your family to Astoria originally? Were your parents– had your parents immigrated from Egypt and then New Jersey or?
Uh, yeah! Um, the– that’s where they grew up? Uh, in, like, Cairo and Alexandria. My mom and dad respectively. And, uh, after– They got married, my dad moved to New York to start, um, saving for an apartment. He started working here [clicking] and, uh, and my mom and sister stayed in Egypt before I came along. Um, so, uh, he was able to bring them to New York. Uh, after some time. Then I was born and then we moved to Egypt for a little bit, and then we ended up in New Jersey, uh, in Greenbrook. And later we moved to South Brunswick.
[00:03:06]
So you’d spent– you said you’d spent the first two years of your life in Astoria, and then moved back to Egypt. How long was the family back in Egypt?
Uh, from when I was like two and a half to five and a half. Three years.
Okay. Do you have any kind of memories of that– of that time?
Yeah. I don’t remember arriving there but, um, I remember going to school there. I was technically too young for kindergarten, but the principal of the school my sister went to, he– he let me just go to school so I had, like, two kindergartens– one there and one here. And, um, I remember music class and– Um, just like getting dressed up for cultural days and performances. That was pretty cute.
Um how– what was the age difference between you and your sister?
Four years.
Four years. Uh, hm, were you– did you have a– a close relationship with her as you were growing up? Since you were a kid?
Oh– we were ve– are very different people but, um, I was more on the obedient side, so. [laughs] Little bit of a different treatment. But I– I always looked up to her and, uh, it’s cool having an older sister to kind of show me that, uh, things are not the end of the world when, you know, when you break the rules and you’re screwing up. Things like that, so, uh, I’m grateful that she was the rebellious one because I didn’t have that in me yet.
Gotcha. Um, uh, what was the, uh– Did you have any other extended family around you? Uh, either around you or there in the United States?
Not here. I mean, my mom’s uncle and his family live in Astoria. I guess there’s a lot of Arabs and Egyptians specifically in that area. Um, so, I have, my mom’s cousin is actually, uh, like a few weeks younger than me? So basically [soda can opens] my age? Um, but other than that, everyone’s in Egypt. My mom’s sister’s and parents and my cousins. They’re all there.
Cool! Have you, uh, have you spent any time since that time that you came back when you were five and a half– have you gone back and forth periodically, or?
Yes, about every two years? Uh, we go back and lately I’ve been, like, going on my own. Um, like, when I was 16 I took my first solo flight to Egypt and– it’s, it’s pretty different, you know. Without your mom there. You can bend the rules a little bit with your aunts watching you, um, so yeah, I– the last time I went was summer of 2018.
Okay. Alright. Um, so when you came back– when your family moved back to the United States when you– you were five and a half, is that when you kind of, like, had your second round of kindergarten?
[00:06:01]
Yeah. I do not remember, um, the transition from Egypt to America. Again, I remember being put in ESL classes because I guess I had an accent that, like, I wasn’t even aware of? But, like, I didn’t mean it. I just remember that, like, feeling of, kind of, indignation as a kid, like, this is too– Slowed down for me? So I ended up, like, advocating for myself to not be taken out of class to go to ESL anymore? And I nev– I, like, remember feeling like I didn’t know it was that easy to just say like, “I don’t need this. Can I go back to the full class?” Um, that stands out in my mind.
Um. And that was all in Astoria–back in Astoria?
No. When we moved from Egypt to the US again, we landed in Greenbrook, New Jersey.
Uh. What was the difference– do you remember kind of like, uh– uh– uh, what was the difference in, kind of like, the pace of life or the– the– the– where you were living, you know. What kind– whether you were in an apartment or house, like, what was that like when you were in Greenbrook?
Uh, we lived in an apartment in Greenbrook and there were a lot of kids in the area, so, um, ah, you know, I would go outside and play the bouncy balls and ride my bike and such and, um, yeah, it was a good time to be in, like, a little community of other people my age. Um, and then my sister’s friends, I’d try to sidle in with them, try to teach me to skateboard and. [laughs] Didn’t work, but, uh, yeah. That was– A bit different, um, to not have– Like, my family there, but still a lot of kids my age. So that I think helped me out a lot.
Yeah. Were you, uh, did you have any, kind of like, [computer dings] specific, like, best friends? Or good friends during that time?
Yeah, uh, I think we were on the third floor and on the first or second there was another Egyptian family. And, um, their daughter was a few years older than me, but we got along really well. Her name was Aya. And, um, we played Barbies and everything and she had a little brother who, um, he, like, tied the blanket around his neck once and let me, like, ride on, on the tail end of it. So he, like, dragged me through the apartment. [laughs] That was a really fun time.
What was your relationship like with your parents as you were a young kid?
Uh, I know I was– I mean, the word that comes to mind is “overachiever” but I was just, like– That was where my pace was at, so, uh, it was very much like– “Look at this thing I drew! Look at this thing I did!” A lot of, uh– [pause] Uh, I mean, looking back it feels like I was making up for my sister? And their relationship? Which is kind of an uncomfortable thing to say, but that dynamic was definitely there, of, like, trying to– Make up for any drama that came up within the family.
[00:09:12]
What is the– I mean– You felt like you were kind of witnessing or– or kind of seeing that there was a tension there between your parents and your sister?
Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean, like, I was into the religious part of our upbringing and everything. And I just had an easier time at school. I think for my sister, because she lived in Egypt longer, um, it– she had maybe even more of, like, a racial tension with the other people in her middle school? I was just in elementary school so didn’t really pick up on those things as clearly. But I remember hearing, like, years later that she would get teased, being called a terrorist and, like, I didn’t get any of that so. Beyond, you know, whatever caused her to– Not be like me, I know that my behavior got me a lot of rewards.
Mhm. What was, uh– You kind of had mentioned that first moment when you were– when you had, uh, um, pulled yourself out of ESL. Um, what other kinds of, like, uh, classes or, uh, kind of, like, academic things were d– were interesting to you as an elementary school student?
Well, I kept a– like, little journal for as long as I can remember. I always, like, wrote little poems in there. One time I– I couldn’t find my little journal and someone else did and, like, it was this kid in my class. He, like, read aloud one of my poems and I started crying. But he said it was good, so, uh. [laughs] It was just a little shocking. But I– writing is still my main thing? Uh, but, math was a lot easier to grasp in those days too. I, you know, took standardized tests and I always achieved very highly. Uh, there were, like, spelling bees and math bees so I was able to do those at that time and that was really fun. I did not like, um, the reading hour? Like, when the librarian came and read us a book. I– I remember, like, I covered my ears once and she was like, “Do you have an earache?” I was like “No, I just want to hear my own voice reading.” So, um, I think it’s pretty cool to remember, like, the little bits of independence that I see looking back when like– um, I always thought of myself as very obedient, like, by the book but I really like those parts of myself that didn’t really fit squarely with everyone else but, like, I didn’t bother me at the time, either.
Um. What was, uh, how long did you live in Greenbrook?
Greenbrook was from kindergarten– the real kindergarten. So age 5 to 8. Another three years there.
[00:12:02]
Okay. Um, and then what was the– what was kind of the transition or move after that?
Well! My parents wanted to put us in an Islamic school? And there’s one right here in South Brunswick, uh, that they specifically moved for? So, um, I think we– we met with, like, the principal of that school just to check in? Like, me and my sister separately, um, because they– they get a lot of students that were, like, in the public school system and, like, their parents wanna– Muslim them up a little more! [laughs] Um, so that– that’s why we moved to this home here? And, uh, I just– I just asked about their art class and they didn’t have one. That was my sole interaction before getting in there. But, uh, I know my sister, like, they– they had to, like, my parents had to speak to the principal like, “Please take her in!” because it’s, like, really small school, so, um, they can turn people down. [laughs]
What was the, uh, um, what was that like, you making that transition?
Uh! It wasn’t fun! Like, yes, I was very, like, with the religious part to begin with, like, I liked being Muslim as a kid. But, when you’re in a private school where everything revolves around other people’s interpretation of your shared religion, it is suffocating! Um, I think the biggest thing that really skeeved me out is, is like the– Weird censorship around anything that could possibly be interpreted as, like, opposite sex relations? Like, fuckin’ third grade, you know! [laughs] And we were playing the jump rope game, um, singing that rhyme that’s like– Um. “Tell me the name of your sweetheart.” The strawberry shortcake rhyme? And, like, I said “sweetheart” and everyone else said “best friend.” That’s, like, those little unnecessary adjustments to make everything, like, kosher, halal if you will.
Mhm hmm.
So that was, like, the biggest– Weirdness to me.
Yeah. Did you express any of that kind of, like, tension at the time, or was it more observational?
More observational? Which is– I think it’s something I regret a lot about my childhood? Like, all the things that I knew were off but, like, I just had this habit of not saying anything for a long time. And that made it hard to, uh, get what I needed? But, yeah! I mean. Endless examples of things like that ranging from mildly weird to just like, this needs to stop. Um, but! The cool thing is that in fourth grade this new girl from New York moved in. She was from Brooklyn– Zena was her name and, like, she was ostracized for being, you know, not in the super Muslim clique? And, uh, I ended up befriending her and she was someone to share my grievances with about the culture shock.
[00:15:12]
How long were you, um– Well, actually first, when you moved to South Brunswick, where did you– were you living in an apartment building or a house, or?
Uh, this house right here!
Cool. And what was that new neighborhood like?
Uh, definitely no kids? [laughs] My age. Um, I mean, I didn’t really meet them until I went to the public school system three years later. But, uh, it was a little more lonely riding my bike out here? [laughs] Um– yeah. It– a little bit less independence in terms of, like, going outside because there wasn’t that, uh, like, people downstairs, upstairs, it was just like meeting the neighbors slowly.
Um. And then how long were you in, uh– The Islamic school?
Uh, so fifth grade was my last year, so that’s three years altogether. And, uh, I– I, again, like, asked to be removed, like, advocated for myself. But it was, it was hard.
Did your sister make it all the way through or did she leave as well?
No. She was still there, like, when I was in sixth grade, so she was in ninth grade. I mean, I was in fifth grade, she was in ninth. But she didn’t want to be, like, from the start. Uh, they– she ended up being, like, homeschooled the next year? And then she went to the public high school.
So when you made your transition, what was that like? Kind of leaving that school?
[laughs] Well, I went from, like, fifth grade there to sixth grade in the public school which was a good time, because, you know, sixth grade is the start of middle school. So people from different elementary schools were there. But, um, I guess I w– I was really excited, um, and I was– I was really struck by the– lack of weird vibes between boys and girls? You know, that was so drilled through and through in the Islamic school. But it was a lot more relaxed in middle school. You know, beyond the general weirdness of puberty! [laughs] But it– it was a big relief to not– Not be pigeonholed like that! [laughs]
Um. You kind of bring up the weirdness of puberty. What was that? I mean, that’s like a, you know, kind of a momentous time in all of our lives, but– what are, kind of, your recollections of that phase?
[00:17:58]
I remember, uh– I think it was sixth grade. Um, like I was still really close with my mom? Uh, and I would just tell her every single day, like, “This is what happened! This is what my friend said!” And I remember, like, one real close friend of mine that year got her period. I, like, reported word for word [laughs] how I found out. And, um, yeah, it was, it was– Pretty cool, like, um, being close with my mom, but like, knowing that I can’t tell her everything ‘cause, there’s no longer that insular community of– Of, like, you know, twenty people in– in your grade. There’s a lot more. Um, so I guess, uh– [pause] Yeah. More privacy. Came up for me.
What were those transition periods like in your relationship with your dad?
Oh! [laughs] Um, well, the transition between me and him started– Earlier, I guess? I, well, I mean– my mom mainly stayed at home, so it was a lot easier to fill her in on a regular basis. Um, my dad and I were super close until, like– fourth grade? Um, but I pulled back from him a lot, uh, because he was molesting me for some time? And, like, you know. [laughs] I’m not gonna say “you know,” I guess I have to tell you. No, no one believed me. Um, so that– I admire my child’s self for the way she had to handle it? You know, like, that was the first time I– I started, like, lashing out, being rude, so to speak? Um, and really pushing our relationship aside? Uh, so, like, basically by fourth grade there was like this awful coldness between me and my dad. And that has not gone away. It’s just changed form. And, uh, my parents got divorced when I was 16, so. He doesn’t live here anymore. But in between then, uh, just a lot... Of…Tension.
Were you– did you at– at any point during that time feel as if you had the– the– the ability to communicate what was happening to anyone, or?
I remember the first time it happened, just, like– I, like, my intuition just, like, kind of [pause] Speared through my mind? Like, I knew something is about to happen. And it did. And then I, it’s a little hazy on, like– When I said something? But pre– like, I guess the second time it happened I just went to my mom saying like, “Hey, he’s doing this. Can you tell him to stop?” She’s like “Sure, I’ll talk to him.” And then I remember her just being, like, uncomfortable with what I’d described, but, like, have a feeling she didn’t tell him to stop doing that behavior because it continued? Um, so yeah, I mean–
[00:21:17]
Like, I did mention before that, like, I have this tendency to hesitate before voicing what I think is not right? But I– I said what I– what I experienced and– I– I– Looking back, like, I feel like it didn’t have to go that far because, you know, it. [sigh] It was obvious that something was wrong. Um. And I– I just felt so shut down, I guess. Because, um, it’s kind of hard when you have your perception [noise] and, like, you know, you’re seen as the kid. So there’s a little bit of, uh, enmeshment between, like, my interpretation and, like, the facts, I guess? But that’s really not my words saying that. You know, that’s me trying to– Compartmentalize why it continued? Until I like, you know, became [pause] disobedient? [laughs] It’s funny using these words, like, I just, I– I wish it didn’t have to continue. ‘Cause, like, to this day, you know, like, um, he’s, like, the financial provider! Um, he knows so many things. Celebrate him! Your dad! [laughs] And, uh– If– I just have to say, like, I’ve confronted the situation several times over the years. Like, it's been more than ten years and every few years I’ll– I’ll bring it up to my mom or someone, try to like– some sort of intervention. And it’s always like this horrible build up in me and then it just gets– deflated by denial. Um, that, like, I guess the last time I addressed it, uh, a couple years back, like, I don’t remember what I said, but I remember he said “Do you think it was, like, malicious or sexual?” I don’t know what the fuck he said. And I said “No, because how are you gonna say, like, ‘Yeah! I think you molested me!’” Um, and he was like “Well, there you go!” So. And just this morning, you know, I– I try to really narrow what I take in, like, on social media. But someone had reshared, like, another survivor advocacy page and, um I don’t remember what– what I read but just the fact that– Manipulation serves its purpose. So, I– I think what I read on that account was someone saying, like, um. Like, of course they’re gonna deny, of course they’re gonna change the narrative. You know. When being confronted. But it’s– it continues to be a mindfuck. [laughs]
[00:24:07]
Just because, like, I couldn’t even claim the word “molestation” for so long because, like, you think, you know– Bad person, right there. They’ll, they’ll get taken away. Like, if someone does something so, you know, unspeakable. Then it’s cut and dry, it’s black and white. You know, it gets taken care of. But that’s not the case because people have so many sides and dimensions to them and that’s really been– A journey. [laughs] To not jump back and forth between, like, he did this, no one believes me, I’m a piece of shit. Like, I– what is wrong with me to, um– The reality that I share with so many survivors around this.
Um. When you, uh– When did you first, kind of like, reach out to talk to someone about it, or to, kind of, you know, speak it out loud or– or– or find– find the support group?
So outside of, I guess, my mom and dad. Um, I remember going to a counselor. Uh, just like, uh, the one they had in high school. [laughs] Uh, I thi– it must have been– tenth grade? Um, I was, you know, seeing her for some time. And I, like, went to her and I just. I went to her office, like, full breakdown sobbing and I wrote down what had happened. And I just pushed it towards her, um, and that was, I guess, the first time I told someone outside of the household? And, I was in the creative writing class that year and we had to slam poetry. Spoken word. And I, I guess I– two nights before the assignment was due, like, I sat down very, um– Focus. And I wrote, like, basically first draft, it was, it was perfect in my eyes. It was truthful, it was complete. I– I wrote a poem about, um, it was called, like, “Ten Years” like, every year, how I grappled with this, um. And, like, the little details that just wouldn’t leave me alone. And most of it was really about, like– Not what happened to me, but, like, me trying to deal with it? Um, it’s a really powerful poem, if I do say so myself. And like, I– I performed it for the whole class. Like, it’s so freeing to tell a bunch of semi-strangers. Because they don’t have the power to discredit you the way, you know, people who are supposed to protect you have that power. And um, yeah. That poem’s really important to me. So it’s just like, I guess tenth year, tenth grade is the year that I told other people. [sniff]
[00:27:08]
And what was the– what was, kind of like, the result of that, or what were fixed then?
[pause] Not much. [scoff] Um, the people who sympathized with the most were, like, classmates who had also been violated in that way, but, you know, we were still minors. Not, no. I didn’t know anyone who, like, got their happy ending. Like, this other girl in class had a similar story. It’s just– the things we keep inside until we meet one of us. [laughs]
Um, so, while all of this is happening in your life, also, kind of like, going through what you would call, like, the “normal” stages of, like, you know, teenagehood and– and those things. Um, I’m kind of curious, like, what was that– what was that kind of side of your life? You know. What was your social network in school and what kinds of, um, you know, writing obviously is a very big, important part of your life. You know, were there other things that were starting to– to kind of come into your life?
Yeah! Um, I was pretty cool in that I always looked for, like, volunteer opportunities and things like that? Like, I had a lot that, I guess I did put on my, uh, transcript, but that wasn’t my motivation. Like, something I really like and sort of miss about myself is the way I just, like, would get an interest and go pursue it. For myself. Like, um, I– I still read a lot at that time and I read about someone volunteering, like, at the senior center? So I, like, that year, my high school was starting, like, sort of like, high schoolers visiting, uh, nursing homes and such club? And I– I really enjoyed the way that everything that I heard about and pursued just kind of fell into place for me? Um, because– I never was popular I guess? I– I’ve always gotten along better with people older than me? So that makes it easier to, like, communicate with adults. [laughs] And it made it easier to, like, not fit in, I guess? But, when you get to high school, it doesn’t matter so much. There’s so many people that, like, if you wanna lay low, it’s fine. There’s a hundred other kids who also don’t get it? [laughs] Um, but I met my best friend to this day in ninth grade and, uh– She’s really important in my life? Um, [pause] ‘Cause, I– I guess by the time I hit, like, tenth grade, definitely by eleventh, my, uh– The things that I took for granted about myself, like my academic performance and my ties to my religion, were deteriorating.
[00:30:09]
Fast. Um, so I guess I– I had my best friend to anchor me in the fact that, like, I wasn’t, um– I wasn’t functioning the way I was used to? Like, that’s really when, uh, depression was clearly a factor in my life. So, um, you know, grades started slipping, I ended up skipping class and things like that, and. It was really important to me to see that it wasn’t the end of the world when I just couldn’t keep up appearances so much. Um, yeah and, like, by eleventh grade I definitely wasn’t Muslim anymore. Um, and it’s interesting, like, the catalyst for that decision within myself or acknowledgement really was like, uh, I was straight, but I couldn’t, uh, justify the idea that, like, you couldn’t be queer and Muslim. Um, so for that reason, you know, on behalf of those people over there, uh, I– I couldn’t identify as Muslim any long– Um, and that was a really big deal with my mom. Um, that’s really when we drifted apart a lot. Eleventh grade. And by senior year, uh, I was hospitalized. In fact, I barely graduated just simply because I– I wasn’t in school for a few months. Um. Bas– like, suicide attempts and, uh, inpatient, outpatient, things like that. But I did graduate.
And what was the, kind of like, the [inaudible] of hospitalizations? Was it an ongoing thing or was it–
Yeah, um– I– I remember getting my first suicidal thoughts in seventh grade, but, um, they became more– More regular. More– Unable to shake them off by senior year of high school. Um. [pause] And. [pause] I– I guess I didn’t have those things that I was used to about myself. Like, enjoying reading and academic stuff, like, none of that really was stable anymore? So it made, you know, the suicidal thoughts a lot louder. And– Uh. [pause] Yeah, I mean, I. I. Took action, in that direction, in like December. Senior year.
[00:33:05]
And um. [pause] It like– I. I was in, uh, a class called, uh, HiTOPS. It was like, you had to apply for it last– the year before, and, uh, it’s like a peer-led sex education class, so. That was like, you know, a handful of other seniors who, like, applied and got in and got to, like, teach curr–sex-ed curriculum to the younger grades. S,o like, it was really small, close community of people. But, um, I just remember, like, I still have– you know, mental illness troubles or whatever right now, but at that time, it was like really believing in like, if I displayed this pain, like, broadcast it wildly enough, then, like, something’s gotta give. Like, outside in? Um. So I, I think– That really is what pushed me to take action. Like, to attempt suicide? Um, twice that year? Because, you know, like, I got the attention and attention is not a bad word in this context. Like, I, I got the, the– The acknowledgement that I was not okay? That was really, like, vital at the time. But, like, it’s weird looking back. Like, I– I didn’t realize how– [pause] Not alone I was. Um. That a lot of people go through that. And I just happened to have people who listen? Um, but they were people my age. No one could really pull me out of that. Um. Yeah.
Um. What was the– How did you, um, kind of like, negotiate or, kind of like, navigate through that final year of school? Like, to get yourself to graduation? You said you almost didn’t graduate, but you were able to kind of, um, get yourself to that point. What was that– what was that like?
Well, uh. The part that put my graduation at risk is that I was, uh, in like an advanced English class? But, like, regardless of the level, if you don’t pass twelfth grade English, you don’t graduate. Um. And– [pause] I got my final grade, like, two weeks before graduation? Um, and I had gotten like, 1% above failing on an assignment I had turned in. And honestly, I– I think that teacher, like, purposefully gave me, like, a, “there you go” grade? [laughs] ‘Cause I didn’t know what was happening. But, like, yeah, that, like, two weeks before, um, the school year ended, I–I got the passing grade. That was really the key part of–
[00:36:00]
And, unexpectedly, the me– I had gotten accepted to TCNJ? So I– I was all set. [laughs] Just happened so fast. Like, I was in another hospital, like, in May that year, so. It was really just whatever happens, happens!
Um. So what was that, uh, as you were, kind of like, making it through that– that– that period of time, kind of then making that transition from high school to college?
[pause] Well, um. [pause] I guess the– Residue of one, not being Muslim in eleventh grade and two, um, trying to kill myself and stuff like that. Things my parents had never dealt with, more so my mom, really. Um, she was more in the picture. Uh, that just, you know, continues to create strain. When you’re not performing the way you used to. So by the time I entered college, um, you know, I– I had a car to drive. I had my own classes that she couldn’t survey. I had a schedule that wasn’t, like, easy to check up on, so. Ton of freedom all at once. And. [sigh] Uh. I don’t know. I mean, I got my, my first– More than a few hours a week job in college, so that gave me a lot more room to– Do whatever I wanted! [laughs] Um.
What was the job?
Oh! I worked at Panera. [laughs] I, uh, met someone who became my boyfriend there. And, uh, I– I guess what I remember about the first years of college is– That I smoked weed a lot? [laughs] Like, that was my first introduction to a– like, I hadn’t even drank alcohol at that point. But like, um– Yeah, I just. Got high a lot? And– [pause] I think, that’s the focal point really! [laughs] In those first few years.
What was your– I mean, you mentioned your boyfriend. What was kind of like, the romantic, personal romantic history? Had you had relationships in high school?
Huh!
Before that?
[laughs] My first boyfriend, as in the one before this one. I met him in the psych ward. So, you know, it was very powerful, um, connection. And I say that laughingly, but, it’s true! You know, when– when you’re at your lowest and there’s one boy your age in the psych ward, you’re, you’re gonna keep in touch after! Um.
[00:38:55]
But yeah, I– I met that guy senior year and it was, um– It made me feel very, uh, grown up! [laughs] To like– My many firsts with him. Um, but like, it– it lasted like two months, whatever. It just, you know, let me know that, uh– [pause] That it’s not such a big deal? I guess? ‘Cause I had never dated anyone before that, never kissed or whatever. Still had, like, the remainders of like, Muslim upbringing tailing me. Um, yeah so that– that was a few months in senior year and then like high– I mean, college I met Malek at Panera.
And what was that like?
Um– I mean, he saw me when I was like, uh, going through orientation. Like, he was already an employee there and he paid a lot of attention to me. Um, so he became my boyfriend, I guess. It was pretty chill! [laughs] Um, but, it. I mean, it was a good relationship! It was just– [pause] Not– [laughs] It, it wasn’t really, um, built on anything substantial besides smoking together.
And uh, how– are you still working at Panera? Is that a short term job, is that?
It was– I was there, for like, almost a year? Which for me is a long time. [laughs] Um, and I left there because, you know, this is the best thing about my relationship with Malek. He told me that, like, um, someone he knew worked at a place where you like. It’s like companionship? Um. For– Uh, developmentally disabled people. Like you– I don’t know., uh, he told me to apply there to get better pay raise. And uh, I did. I left Panera to work, um, for Community Options and, like, I got paired with someone who, like, wanted to go to the mall, things like that, so, like, companionship for a few hours every week! And–
And when was this? When did you– when did you start this?
That was in 2017. Like, in the spring. Um– I didn’t stay there long because, uh, I found a job offer, um, like an advertisement put up by my current client’s mom? Asking for someone to help take care of her autistic daughter. And I just texted the number, got an interview, just on my own and she liked me I guess. I learned on the job a lot, you know. It was a lot more– Intensive than what I had been doing before. Like, just taking someone out to go, you know, enjoy the weather and such.
[00:42:09]
This time, like, I was giving medicine and, um, doing all sorts of things in, in this person’s home, so. Uh, yeah. That– that’s my job ‘til today with this same family.
What was the– I mean, I guess from the first time that kind of, Malek had kind of given you that– that– that reference or that idea for that other job. What was the thing that kind of drew you to that? Because that’s a pretty significant change in terms of, you know, the kind of work that you were doing.
Uh, he told me that, uh, it was like entry level and ten dollars an hour, which was more than minimum wage I had been earning. Like, that was it. [laughs] I didn’t really know much beyond that, um. But! Like, on a personal note, I’m– I’m good with people. [laughs] I– I– I love– Paying attention to people. Like, that connection. That is built from companion care, like, I just went into it because he told me about it and I took his word for a lot of things. But it ended up really working for me. [pause]
What do you like about it?
[pause] I like not having coworkers! [laughs] I like not being, you know, told to do things a certain way for arbitrary reasons. You know, like when you work in Panera or whatever, other restaurant. Like, there’s rules that are just, like, standard across the board. Um. But, uh– With this job right now, I’m a direct support provider. Um. Like, I see my actions and their consequences so, like, I can gauge for myself, um, like, what needs to be done? Uh, like little variations in the routine. So it’s– for me it’s, like, a really great balance of, like, I know my– my client. Very well. And, like, there’s still, like, forever learning new things about each other. So it– it’s, like, really fantastic to get to know a person in, like, non-traditional ways I guess? Like, she– her communication’s mostly nonverbal. But, like, for– for me personally? I learn a lot about myself by learning about her. Like, I really, really, really relate to her, my current client for three plus years now. Um, just, to like– Seeing how she interacts with– with the things she loves? Um, really helps me to accept the parts of myself that aren’t like– Neurotypical, functional, here I am in society!
[00:45:03]
Um. It’s so freeing, actually. To be in, like, a caregiving position, but uh– [pause] But, like, there– there’s no power differential there. Like, no chain of command really? Because, uh, it’s intimate. It is, uh, knowing this person and, like, knowing that I have to give physical support with a lot of things and at the same time, like, learning her sense of independence and, like, autonomy? It’s really– I don’t want to say the word “inspiring” ‘cause, like, that’s not the right word. It’s, it’s invigorating, is what it is?
What’s your time been like at TCNJ? What’s– what’s the college journey been for you?
I went in as a Psychology major. Uh, then I changed to Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies because I took a disability studies class that was under that major. But, thus far I have not accumulated many credits. Like, love, repeat classes, a lot of leaves of absences based on my own mental health. So it just– it hasn’t been, like, consistent in any direction. I keep trying at the start of every semester, like, based on– What I think I should be doing? Um, I mean, there’s– there’s never a straight answer when anyone asks me, “Hey, how’s college?” Like, there’s always a different variation on the story based on how I feel about myself? But, truly, um– I– I just– I don’t have that same knack for academics I used to. And! Um. [pause] I guess when you get to college, it’s like, you think there’s gonna be an end point, but it also feels so far away because, like, you’ve never not been in school before? Um, but, I don’t know why I’m still enrolled, but I withdrew from this semester also. So– Sort of one month at a time.
Um. [pause] You– So– How we, kind of like, met through this project was your relationship with the Center for Empowerment?
Yeah.
And I’m curious what that journey was like. Like, how did you get connected with them and what was the– what was your kind of relationship or association with them?
So. [sigh] I think I already mentioned the last time I went to Egypt was 2018? In the summertime. And, uh, I was there for exactly three months. And, like, I already, you know, had depression, being suicidal. Like, that was already part of the package of “me” when I showed up to Egypt. But.
[00:48:08]
Um. I was very isolated based on those factors? And um, we, like, took a little family trip– not my parents, it was just, like, me with my extended family there. And we went to, like, the beach house that they have in a different part of the country? And, um. Like, I– it was just, like, me and my younger cousins and, like, their parents really, so. Uh, I guess what I’m trying to say is that I– I was raped? Um. There. And, it was– [pause] Gosh, I mean. It, it broke me? In a lot of ways? Because I was already, like, so out of it. I was already so suicidal. And, like, this– this person. Um, he, like, worked at the beachside resort? Um, so he was, like, a known good guy there. Like, he set up the umbrellas, gave swimming lessons to the kids, shit like that. Um, and I, you know, me being– Like, looking for connection with, with anybody really but also, like, really hurting inside? Um, like, I would talk to the staff there a lot and just, like, shoot the breeze, practice my Arabic. [laughs] Um. And, and like, he– [pause] [sigh] He– it was– it was weird. Like, he told me like, sit next to him one time. Like, just like while we were chatting and. Like. He’d ask me some, like, questions about my life, like all chill. And then I felt like he wasn’t really paying attention? But, like, I gue– I guess he positioned himself to– [pause] [tsk] I don’t know. It’s– it’s– it’s insane. So, like, I don’t remember everything, but, like, it was, like, over the course of a couple days. Like, or– like, over a week. Like, just, like, different assaults. By the same person? And– It’s– It’s kind of, like, when I was molested. It was, like, almost in plain view! Like, someone who was, like, known in the community. And is brazen enough to do these things and deny them. Like, I remember several times asking like, “What do you want from me?” In like, you know, my limited Arabic, because every single time without fail he’s like, “I see you as a sister. I want nothing but the best for you.” And, like, I didn’t know what to do from that point, just like walk away. Okay. [inhale] And, and, like, I guess how– Like, the last time, you know, he assaulted me, like, I– I wasn’t– I had still been, like, reeling from, like, the night before, I guess? I– I don’t know. Um, so I wasn’t talking to him. I was trying not to look at– Like, after the first time, like, next morning? He, like– He was, like, on the job and I was by the school and– and he said “What do you think of our little moment yesterday?” And, like, I was just, you know, so, like, inflamed and, like, shocked at what he would say. Like, the way he would frame it like that? And I just, like, rolled my eyes and, like, I heard him say as I walked away, like, in public! You know, keeping it hush-hush but, like, he knows exactly what he’s doing. He was like, like, “Really! You’re hurting my feelings!” [laughs] Just like. The way these people know exactly what they’re doing while feigning innocence?
[00:52:04]
It is really, um, something else. [laughs] I, I could go on but, like, I don’t know what you want to hear.
I mean I– I think that’s, uh. You, uh. You have a, um– [pause] You have a very natural gift in terms of telling the story and kind of like, you know, getting inside the– the perspective of it. Um, so I mean, this project is about that. Right? It’s about, how do we– how do we kind of share some of these stories so that others who have, like, a similar kind of experience can, can understand, you know. And help see that perspective, so I think whatever you’re willing or comfortable to share is, you know, that’s what we’re here to do. Um. The– the– Thing that we can go to is that, you know, one of the things, uh, is that the connection with the Center for Empowerment, right? So– so you had that experience at a very specific kind of, um, sensitive time in your life. Um, what was the– what was then the drive to then bring you to them?
Yeah, so, um, like– like, this happened with him, like, the week that I was about to come back to New Jersey. Um, so I– I did, uh, I came back here and mom was, like, on her own lil’ trip so I had the house to myself. My sister had moved out at the time. So just me and my cat. And my brain. Uh. So, I– Um. [pause] I just. I used the power of Google. Like. [laughs] I– I put in these search words, like– You know, like, “sexual assault help.” All sorts of combinations. And, for some reason, it took a lot of, like, Googling to come across the Center for Empowerment. I guess, like, a lot of the initial results that would come up are, are, like, um. [pause]
[00:54:13]
Like– like therapy places you pay into and things like that. Um, but, yeah. I– I actually called a number of places that were more like– I– I don’t know. They just weren’t– they either, like, weren’t in my part of the country, at all. Like, you know, like, more like hotlines, not like helping after the fact.
Um, but yeah, I connected with the Center for Empowerment. I don’t remember how, really. I– I wasn’t very hopeful but I just kept calling places until they picked up. I think it– [sigh] So that would have been, like, September of 2018? And, um. [pause] Yeah, I– I don’t really remember the– the transition much. I just, uh. [pause] Yeah! It’s weird! Like, I– I have no recollection of, like, the process. I just know I did it and– I still use their services. Um, yeah, it’s a really big gap in my mind. But I can tell you that, uh, I was very involved in like, 2019? Um, with their groups. Uh, and I did, um– Sam organized, like, an art show for survivors and, uh, I put a lot of my stuff in there. And– What I remember– my impression being about the center is that it wasn’t– you know, like, I’d done a lot of, like, hospital stuff, mental health programs. Things that you could really graduate from and, you know, get your certificate for good behavior. Get stickers on your exercise binder. Um, but that was not the case here? Like– I was just, like– I remember asking before I joined my first group there like, “What, what can’t I say? What can’t I go into detail about? What should– what are the rules about speaking here?” And, like, there aren’t any. Like, they didn’t even have the whole, like, “Okay, everybody. Like, wait your turn to speak!” Like, just, like, people who can manage themselves. Like, God, what a breath of fresh air! Like, I hadn’t experienced that anywhere. Definitely not in school. [laughs] Not in college. Not in every program I’ve ever been. Not really with my family. Um, so it– it really, like, showed me that I wasn’t just, like, a person receiving help, you know. I’m part of my own life. Um, and part of other people’s lives.
[00:57:01]
Like, it just– It didn’t make it feel like a hierarchy of giving and receiving help. And it was just really community, like.
Mhm. [pause] That’s great.
Yeah. I guess how I got from, like, there to– to now, with the center is that, um, I ended up, like, going back to college. Like, I’ve been on and off for years. But, one semester I received services from the Anti-Violence Initiative Office at my college so I, like, put a pause on the Center for Empowerment, but, like, I made a ton of progress in those two semesters, and then, like, it came back with, like, a little, um, summary report. ‘Cause I had, like, used up my sessions at school? So it was, uh, that’s when I went back to, like, using the Center for Empowerment. Um. And. Uh– [pause] Yeah, I’ve been doing that ever since. Like, I had a few stints with other counselors in between but, like, it’s– it’s hard, um, trying to pay for that? When the Center is free? [laughs] And very competent! So, so yeah. [pause] And I love that they have a hotline. Like, any time of day, night more so for me. Just, someone else’s voice.
Mhm. Uh. Where is your, um, kind of like, artwork and your writing at this point?
Mhm. Uh. [sigh] I– I pushed myself to regain those skills in the past few months because, um, like, over the summer, uh, I– I, like, had a severe drop in every aspect of my health. Um, and I– [pause] Was very, like, depriving to myself of things that I cared about or used to enjoy? Um. But, like, when I kind of like s– got more on my feet, like a few months ago. I couldn’t bring myself to journal again? Which is something that used to come so naturally to me. Because I, like, I just had this running course of, like, what’s the point? Like, just couldn’t get– bridge the gap between, like, the shit in my head and, like, a clean paper? But, um, I joined the creative writing group read by the Center. And, you know, wanna write in creative writing groups, so that really, really helped me to just– Put shit on paper that I hated and saw no value in until I could see some value in it. And right now, um, I– Have, like, two main journals that I use almost every day, and if I’m not using them every day I’m, like, thinking about them and knowing that, like, I, like– To the point, like. Like, up until I actually move my pen across the paper, I feel awful.
[01:00:15]
And hopeless. Y– most of the time. But, like, just like one line in? I– I feel at home again. Uh. So that’s where I am now, like, I– I did have some time jumps starting my drawing skills too, but now I’m kind of mixing the two where, like, I’m– I– I like designing a paper? Like, with– with the markers and ink, like, I really am enjoying, like, not making sense on paper. Like, writing down, drawing down what– what feels right. Movement in my hand? Um, just, it– it– that’s mindfulness as deep as I know it. Um, like, not pre-meditating an art project and it just– when it comes out as is spectacular because it– it represents what I’m going through in that moment. So that’s where I’m at right now.
Um. Can– coming into this process, uh, this interview process. Was there anything– was there anything, maybe, you were– had an expectation that you would be asked or– or, uh, a topic that you thought you would be talking about that we haven’t talked about yet?
I think I mentally avoided– [pause] Any expectations about this?
Mhm.
I am– I did notice a few times, like, through this interview, that I’m, like, wondering, like, am I– Saying– not saying, like, the right thing, like, I’m telling the truth [laughs] about my life, but, like, is this what is useful to this interview, but, you know. [laughs] I don’t know!
Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that’s a natural, um, that is a very commonly expressed sentiment among a lot of our interview subjects, and the answer is– The answer is that there’s really no expectation and no, you know. There’s no outline, you know. There’s no– there’s no right or wrong answer to that question. It’s really just about perspective and recollection.
Yeah.
Um, which, um, I’m very appreciative of your perspective and recollections. Um, yeah, I mean, is there anything else that you– You feel as if you wanted to express, or, any other questions for us on this side? Um, yeah, the other– the other thing to keep in mind is that this doesn’t necessarily have to be the end of the interview, right? So, we can always come back, swing back around to it on another day, too. You know, if you go “Oh, great! Yes. I want to talk about this.” Or, you know. “There’s this other aspect to it.”
Um. I– I do want to talk about, like, how those two experiences, like, still can live in my behavior today? But I’d also like to use the bathroom.
Yes! Then, let’s absolutely take a break!
Okay!
[01:03:32]
Great! Go for it.
Okay.
[laughs]
[pause] So what’s on my mind right now– [pause] Is, I guess, because you said, like, “expectations.” Um. I’m thinking– About all the changes that– So, like, windows throughout the day where I would witness, stuff, like. [inaudible] that happened. Um. [audio feedback] Like, I– I always think to myself, like, I– I never– Wanted to change what happened. Uh, I always think I want it to stop. It meaning the aftershocks. Um, and that’s just something that I know is true in my thoughts because it comes up in– in every period of writing. That– I don’t want to change the past, I don’t want to take away those things that happened to me. But, like, I– I’m forever wishing that there was recourse around it? Um– Like I– I– All, just the rage that courses through my imagination. Um, all the different ways that feel like, yeah, this will save me. Um, including, um, like, the act of telling someone? Uh, that you’ve been hurt in that way. Like, just, the build up makes things feel like, “Okay, this is it. This will make me feel okay again.” And I, I– what I want to focus on is that, like– There’s no end point! [laughs] Like, and, that’s not– A bad thing. Like, a, I’m thinking about how what I said, like, um, In all the programs I’ve graduated from, like, to help me, like. [pause]
[01:06:02]
No one can give me anything that I feel like I’ve lost of myself. And, like, that sucks, like, that I can’t pinpoint a solution? But, uh. [sigh] [pause] Like right, right now, um, this period of time, like. Like, every day I feel suicidal. Like. Every day I have to– Contend with my own life. And at the same time, in those same twenty-four hour period where, where I’m– Regretting and– and– sad and every iteration of emotion that I have, like– [pause] There’s– there’s no prewritten path. Like, it’s– it’s insane, like, how many people, the sheer magnitude of human beings affected by violence of all sorts. I just happen to be very well acquainted with the gender-based variety. Uh, like, I guess, because there– there’s no like– Be good in all these directions and you’ll be free of it! Um, I– I guess to– to me that’s showing me a lot of independence in the way I– I’m– allowing myself to think throughout the day. Like, [sniff] what I’m trying to express– and I have no idea if it’s coming across yet, but, like, what– what is so important to me right now is– [pause] Like, at I– I swung back and forth a lot from like, “Someone please help me!” to, like, “this dark and dreary world, like. Let’s kill myself!” And– and that– that’s a revolving door. Like, it will keep flapping back and forth. But, like, the things that were and can be still fuel for hopelessness, like, I guess the mystery of it is inviting. Like, the fact that– there’s so much to celebrate about myself in between all the things that make me wish I was never born. Like, this is the reality of it, you know? Um, like, I– I’ve talked about this stuff a lot. This stuff meaning my life, I guess. But, um, every time I– I want to, like, come to a hopeful conclusion? Not in any, like, um, fake way, but, like, it’s true about me that I have faith in my future, even as, like, every day I don’t turn up as the person I thought I would be. Like.
[01:09:15]
That these things do coexist. Like, I– I land on one– vision of myself in the morning and then by night time, like, I– I feel so defeated. But, like, in between there are all the times that l– lead me to places like this. I mean, I just– I– I am so many different people from experiences. Like, and I used to– I mean– It still has the potential to feel like I’m split between however many people. But, like, I’m– I’m continually in awe of the way that an experience can be repeated, replicated between two people or two versions of myself and, like, there’s no guaranteed outcome. Like, I– for me, it’s important to express and believe– and I do believe it– that, like, you know, I– I could have– I could have got into the gory details that sometimes I do need to go into. Or, I could have, you know, laid out every, um, gold star that I’ve picked up along the way on this, like, healing journey. Like, there’s so many ways to tell this and, like, not one of them– Is more true than the other. I just, I’m like, like, this is what keeps me grateful, and that’s why I want to share. Like, just that all the times that I just thought I couldn’t take anymore. Like, there will be more times like that in the future but, like, in between, like, I can only listen to– to my interpretation of things. Like, something about not being believed, about these very jarring moments and times throughout my life? Like. [pause] It– it forced me personally to– Listen more to myself than to the voices I hold authority. [sigh] It’s hard for me to say I’m proud of myself, but. [pause] But I–
[01:12:00]
Ah. I’m allowing myself to– to feel it for as long as it lasts. Like– Just– just all the things that, like, I can count as failures. Like not being even close to finishing school. Like having this shit relationship with my dad that nobody else can, like, justify, you know. Like, all the things that I witnessed. And I– I can’t, like, extract my–my memories and give them to you for example. To verify that this is the truth as I know it. But, like, I don’t need to? [laughs] Um. [pause] It– it– I’m– I’m glad, like, just on a larger scale level that– that I haven’t made it. Like– like– all– all the certificates of completion and– and everything that, like, I can show to other people? None of it holds a candle– [pause] [sigh] to– [pause] how– how little I know. Like– [pause] I– I’m just thinking about– [pause] I feel like I? [sigh] Uh. Wasted a lot of– Time not saying what I believe? [sniff] That’s really not wasted, because– [voice cracking] [shaky breath] [sob] [pause] Like– Every waking moment? I have access to the memories that happened, like, have been verified, like, you know. [sniff] That’s really what I’m feeling right now. Like– Like, two minutes from right now, I can remember everything that I wanted to say so clearly and succinctly. But it’s not gone, just because somebody else didn’t receive it packaged in the way that I would hope. I guess, I– I feel really– Impacted by [sniff] like, I– I– I truly don’t need a witness. [pause]
[01:15:12]
Outside of– of myself to make it real. I think “real”, that word, “real”, has been such a tormentor in this healing stuff? [sniff] ‘Cause, like, a lot of times, like, you know, if I say it out loud then it’s real. Those sentiments that I know I share with other people. Because I’ve opened myself up to listen, but, like, yeah. I– [sniff] I’m glad that I pushed through these, like, what feels like stumbling, grasping around like something I really believe in, but, like. Like, it’s not on a card I can hand you. Um, and t– and just, like, to top it off, like, you know, you don’t even have to know what I’m talking about. Like, I know what I’m talking about right now, and. [sniff] It’s astounding. To, to have words that– Mean something to me whether or not [pause] they settle in with someone else. And like, cherry on top is– A lot of times when, like, I don’t even think that the other person is getting it, someone out there gets it, too. [sniff] So yeah. [pause]
Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for taking the time to– Work your way through it. [pause]
Thank you. [pause]
All I see is this cat tail slowly walk across the screen every once in a while.
Yeah. [laughs]
Um– So, I don’t have any– I don’t have any, kind of like, you know, questions on my list, you know, to kind of like, work through. Um, I think one of the things that we always hope for when we do this, kind of, process is that we hope that the person who’s narrating the story has some time and takes a moment to, kind of, you know, put things into perspective and kind of help– help give some insight and I think one of the thing’s that’s really impactful about what you said that is kind of ringing true for me is that idea– it’s not really about– It’s not about the sequence of actions or the facts or the, you know, like, “what happened on this date,” or all those kind of things. At the end of the day it’s what’s most important, and what’s most important in oral history is what is the journey of the individual, right? What’s the– What–
[sniff]
What are the things that are most important to you. So, I– I appreciate you sharing all of that. [pause] Is there anything else that you feel is left unsaid, or? In this moment?
Nope.
So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna pause the recording again.
[01:18:32]