This project manager in Georgia experienced rocky years during her teens and mid-20s when she had substance use disorders. She has been sober for five years. She describes her medical abortion experience, including the pain, anxiety, and the ultimate relief she felt after the process.
“And all I could think about is the women that don’t have that. That don’t have 150 dollars, and I know that there’s programs out there that can help them and give them money, or whatever they need to do, but all I could think about was all the other women that didn’t have the opportunities, you know, because I heard one time that abortions will never be illegal to the elite. And that if you have enough money you will always have access to proper healthcare. And I hate that.”
ANNOTATIONS
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Transcript
Interview conducted by Dan Swern
Conducted Remotely
September 29, 2023
Transcription by Chrissy Briskin
00:00
Uh, today is Friday, September 29, 2023, it’s 11:02 am Eastern Time, um, my name is Dan Swern. I’m here in Highland Park, New Jersey conducting a virtual interview, and I’m here with–
[Redacted], hi how are you?
Hi [Redacted], um again, thank you so much for doing this and being a part of this process. Again, this is your time, whenever you’re ready just please feel free to start from the beginning.
Sure, absolutely. So my name is [Redacted], um, I’m from [Redacted], Georgia, just north of [Redacted], from a town called [Redacted], I’m sure people have heard of it. Um, I live in [Redacted], Georgia right now, which is a little bit north of that city. Um, I’m 33 years old, I just had a birthday about a month ago, um, and, yeah, I’ve been here my whole life. It’s been great. I love being from the South, even though I don’t feel like I have much of an accent, but apparently I do. Um, so yeah, my parents, they’re both from [Redacted]. They met, um, at a factory forever ago and moved to [Redacted], and then they moved to Georgia, um, and then I was born in 1990. Um, so they got divorced, we were together, they were together, all of us, um, probably until about third grade, I think is when they got divorced and, um, it was actually really amicable.You know, my– my parents are super awesome, both of them and, um, I’m really grateful. They’re just two of the greatest people and, um, you know, even though they weren’t good for each other, they still were super good to me, which is great. I mean I’m so grateful for having them in my life and I, um, yeah. They’re just awesome people. They just, uh, as my mom says, she goes, “I love your father, but I just can’t be married to him.” I’m like, I kind of get that, you know? Uh, my dad is– is a great guy and he’s always been super supportive, and my mom is always been my biggest cheerleader through my entire life and she’s just, um, she’s just like me, you know, she’s kind of weird, and kind of quirky, and different, but, um, you know, she, uh, she’s just always been there and that’s super cool. I can’t even begin to be grateful for her. But, so they got divorced, and my dad moved out and he got a little apartment maybe about thirty minutes away, and I had a fairly normal childhood besides that, you know? Um, went to school, did piano lessons, you know, pretty normal, um, nothing that really stood out. There was no major conflicts or anything, my parents were so amicable. I mean, we still have Christmas and Thanksgiving together. I mean, me and my parents just went to a craft festival last weekend together and they’ve been divorced for, you know, twenty-five years at this point. So, but, um, yeah. I also have a half brother named [Redacted], and he was born in [Redacted], so he has a different dad, um, but it’s weird, you know, he’s like technically my half-brother but it really doesn’t ever even feel like that, it kind of just feels like he’s just my brother. I don’t know. But he is ten years older than me, so it was kind of like this weird separation, because, you know, by the time I was like, 8, you know, I’m a little kid, he was already moving out to college and had left and moved away. So we’ve always been close but not really that close and, um, you know, some of the stuff that, like, I’ve gone through I don’t really share with him, because it’s weird. It’s like, you know, he’s my brother, but there’s not that– that connectedness that I see with some siblings, like, you know, my partner [Redacted], him and his sister are just– they’re so tight and they have this bond and, uh, I just don’t really have that with my brother, and it’s not a bad thing, it’s just the way that our relationship is. It doesn’t really– I guess there’s not much there, you know, and the love is there, it’s very elemental and visceral and everything, but it’s just, um, it’s not like how you would think a brother and sister would act towards each other, um, but, you know, I still love him dearly, and I think he’s a great person, and I’m really proud of what he’s become, too. He's, you know, successful, and he’s happy, and he’s got his partner as well. So, he lives in [Redacted].
4:43
But, um, um, but so my– my, uh, my story kind of gets a little murky when I was a teenager, um. I think that’s when the drugs started coming into play. Um, I think I smoked pot for the first time when I was like, I don’t know, 15 or something like that, I really don’t even remember. And, um, you know, you do the typical teenage thing where you’re experimenting, and you’re hanging out with friends, and you’re doing the bad thing and what not, and, um, you know, uh, that kind of escalated, uh, I wouldn’t say quickly, it actually escalated very slowly. I mean it, you know, I was a, uh, a drug user and an alcoholic for probably about– it took about ten good years for me to really hit rock bottom, you know. I think you– you go through it and you think that you’re a teenager and it’s normal, everybody in their teens, in their early twenties, when they’re in college and stuff, they just experiment, they just do these things and it’s not, uh, I think it’s not looked down upon because that’s just what you do, you know? As someone who’s– who’s that age, but, you know, um, for myself, it– it turned pretty dark pretty quickly and, um, I had a boyfriend at the time, um, between like 16, 17, up until I was about, uh, 26. We were together for a long time and, um, you know, he and I did a lot together, drugs-wise that– he was a friend, he was my boyfriend, but he was also a partner in crime I guess? It was not a good, healthy relationship. It was two young people, um, doing not good things together and, um, yeah. That lasted for about– about ten or so years, um, we broke up when I finally got sober at 27. Um, I got sober right before my twenty-eighth birthday, I actually celebrated my birthday in rehab. That was a very weird experience to be sitting in a rehab facility surrounded by, like, you know, fifty or eighty other people who were also in recovery, and they’re singing happy birthday to you and you’re like, “damn,” you’re like, “Holy crap, like what– how many bad decisions did I make in my life that ended me up where I’m here,” you know? And like, you know, I remember like, uh, I was in– in rehab and I– they give you an apartment when you go there, anyone who’s ever been to recovery or an actual rehab facility, they give you an apartment and, uh, I shared it with a– another young girl named [Redacted], and, um, I remember laying in bed in like this little twin, and it was so uncomfortable, it was like laying on a piece of cardboard, but. And I remember laying there and, like, looking around, I’m like, “holy crap.” I’m like, “How did this happen, what did I do wrong where I ended up here?” You know, like I made all these bad mistakes and left turns when I should have turned right, and now I’m laying in a bed in rehab, you know, because I have an alcohol and drug addiction and, uh, it took a while, but I finally realized that I was one of the lucky ones that had the opportunity to get sober when a lot of people don’t. Um, it took me a little bit to realize that, but– but, um, yeah, it was pretty rocky for quite a few years, you know, the most of my twenties were spent, uh, in a bar, or at a friend’s house drinking in a basement doing bad things, and it was, uh, it was rough, you know? And it really sucked, and it got really, really bad before it even got better, um. You know, uh, when I finally got sober at 27, the night that I got sober, um, I remember I was extremely drunk and it was, uh, it was, I think, it was right after– in fact I know it was. It was right after July 4th, Fourth of July, and I was supposed to spend the night with my mom, um, but I don’t know what happened, and I ended up walking down the street and I was very intoxicated, and I had a suitcase, ‘cause I was going to spend the weekend with my mom, and she ended up finding me walking down the road and picking me up in the car. And I was so drunk trying to hide it, which of course makes no sense and, you know, she’s talking to me, she’s trying to make sense of the situation, I’m not making any sense because I’m intoxicated, and she ended up– that was the night she took me to the hospital where I was finally put into a medical detox, and I stayed there for just over three days, um, and I was on an IV drip, they gave me all sorts of, you know, the Benzos and the salts and the IV, and everything to try to, um, stabilize me, um–
10:06
So I spent three days there, and I don’t really remember much, um, apparently my dad came to see me, but I didn’t even– I didn’t even– I don’t remember, um, and, uh, yeah, that was weird. There was a lot of strange stuff there. They– they do this thing called a 1013 in Georgia where they hold you if you’re deemed, um, you know, unsafe to yourself, and so they kept me there because of that. And I– they kept me in a room with four other people, and they basically watch you to make sure you’re not gonna run away. And, uh, they finally stabilized me after about two or three days and, um, they sent me to a detox facility, um, ‘cause I really wasn’t safe to go home at that point. And I spent probably– I think I spent another eight days there which was, um, terrifying, and it was one of the worst experiences of my life. To go to this detox facility that was basically like a jail cell, um, it was a concrete or cinder block room with a metal cot, and they give you, you know, one foam pad and one pillow and one blanket, and they basically force you to detox. And the entire time it was excruciating, and I couldn’t sleep and I was shivering, and it just was, um, awful and, uh, you know I– I would go to the nurses and ask them if they could help me, and they kept telling me they couldn’t give me anything, they couldn’t give me anything until the doctor came. And then the doctor would come and he would prescribe some weird antipsyc– some weird drug that would make the symptoms even worse. And, uh, they– it almost felt like they were just throwing stuff at me to shut me up, which they probably were, um, I don’t know. But, once I got out of there, I went back home with my mom and, uh, I felt pretty broken because, like I said, I felt like I had made 10,000 wrong decisions that ended me up in this situation, and I felt like shit. And, um, I don’t know, but– so I spent some time at her house and, um, I ended up getting my old waiting job back, which was kind of comical to, like, try to stay sober and then go work at a restaurant, you know, but, um, it actually ended up being great, you know. I didn’t mean to get my job back. I kind of just went to get my last paycheck and they were like, “Hey you [Redacted] [want to] come back? We really miss you.” And, uh, so I went back and I worked there for like almost two years (laughter) into my sobriety and, uh, it was a really great experience, you know? I’m really glad that they were kind to me and took me back and, um, I met a lot of really super awesome people at that job and it– it– it actually– that job is what propelled me into the position that I’m in now with the kind of– a liaison into project management. Um, you know, being at that job and meeting my– my then future boss, who was also my friend, uh, but her name is [Redacted] and, uh, she was just the coolest, you know, she was like a cool aunt that was like kind of my mom but sort of my friend, and she was the one that sort of saw me and, uh, saw potential in me, and just loved my story and– and loved that I had, like, gotten sober and I was working really hard, and she just really like that. So, but, um, but, yeah, I, um, I worked there for like two more years, and then the pandemic happened and it was pretty bad, you know, all the restaurants got hit pretty hard, and eventually my boss was like, you know, “You can come in if you want to, but there’s no money to make,” everybody was so scared at the time in 2020, we didn’t know what the hell was going on and, um, so I left. And I went home and [Redacted] was the one that pulled me out of it and asked me to come work for her, and I worked for her on and off through the summer and became a 1099. I had never done that before and that was interesting, um, but she was the one that pushed me to eventually get my CAPM and, uh, kind of propelled me into being a project manager and going that route, and my mom was on the other side also cheering me on, so it was like I had these two women on both sides of me that were both like pushing me telling me like, “I know you can do this, you know, I know that you are capable.” And they were right, you know? And, but I know that I’m the one that was physically doing the work, but having those people behind me, especially women that were me, I mean they were me at one point, they were in their twenties wondering what the hell they were going to do with their life, and for them to give me guidance was just it was, uh, I mean you can’t replace that. You can’t pay for that, that’s mentorship that, um, I don’t know, it’s unbridled so–
15:29
But, um, so when I got sober, um, I met my now partner [Redacted], and, uh, he is also sober. He hasn’t drank in five years and about two months now. Um, and when we met, um, it was a lot of fun, we were friends at first and we got along; he’s just a very silly person. And, uh, we were kind of hanging out for maybe, I don’t know, a couple months before we sort of made things official. We were so broken by the time we had met, and we had been through so much that I think we weren’t really looking to play house per se, we were kind of just– we were like, “I don’t care,” you know, we had been through so much shit that we were just like, “Whatever, let’s just have some fun. I just don’t care.” I was so sick of, like, trying to force myself into a box that I just, I don’t know, we were just having fun And I– I– I always liked that, our carefreeness, we’ve always had this sense of, like, stability and seriousness but also taking everything with a grain of salt, and I think that’s a really good outlook in life is to be a realist but also be an optimist, and just kind of, I don’t know, take things as they happen. So, um, but, so I’m going to try to talk about this without crying. Um, so in 2021, he was diagnosed with, uh, squamous cell carcinoma. I was really hoping I could do this interview without getting upset, um, but, uh, so he went through, um, six weeks of radiation and two and a half rounds of cisplatin. And, uh, in September of 2021, he was put in remission and, uh, he was in remission from that for about two years, um, and then May of 2023 he recently got diagnosed with a different cancer. Um, in his tongue, and they said that this was from potentially from the drinking and the smoking cigarettes for years, you know, and, uh, they said the only thing to do was to do surgery, so he went through a really invasive, intense surgery, um, in August. And, uh, had what’s called a hemiglossectomy, and it was, uh, I’ll spare you most of the details, but they basically– they took part of his leg and they created the donor site in his mouth after they removed the tumor, and he ended up having a tracheotomy. He had what’s called a lymph node dissection with a removal of nodes in his neck and it was, uh, he spent a few days in the ICU, and then they eventually moved him to a recovery unit. So he’s back home now and he’s feeling good, um, and then maybe like four weeks after the surgery, um, the doctors, you know, the pathology from the surgery was positive, and they said that he had clean margins, and that the lymph nodes did not light up when he had his PET scan, which is good, he had clear lymph nodes, um, but that they wanted to potentially do more radiation. Um, the unfortunate thing for anybody who’s ever been through cancer treatment is that radiation is extremely debilitating, and it can leave lasting, lasting effects for forever and sometimes those effects get worse over time, um, so we had a chance for him to go to [a cancer center] to do this– this radiation. The radiation is preventative. It is not, um, he does not have cancer right now. It is preventative, um, but, they told us that if he were to get– if he were to not get the radiation, the chances of the cancer coming back were about, uh, thirty percent.
20:09
Um, and if he did not– if he did get the radiation, that would go down to about ten percent. Um, and so you would think, okay, well go get the radiation, why wouldn’t you do that? Um, but, you know, uh, to get radiation on your– your face, you know, in this area is, um, it can be crippling. It’s terrible. It’s just– it’s awful. And so it’s like, what do you do? Do you do it and you live for another ten-fifteen years or so but your– you can’t eat, you can’t eat solid foods, you can’t, uh, smile, or do you just risk it? So we told the doctors that we’re just gonna risk it and hope that it doesn’t come back. Um, recently, when he went through, uh, his cancer or his– his, um, before he had gone in for surgery over the summer, is, uh, when everything happened and I had to reach out to Aid Access. Um, I, uh, you know, he had gone through cancer treatment in 2021, so we were, uh, just kind of doing whatever we do, you know, not thinking of anything, and, uh, I think– I think it was June, if I can get my timeline right, that I– I noticed that something wasn’t right, and I’m like, “Why am I late, what’s going on?” And, uh, I was like, well there’s no way I’m pregnant, he’s gone through radiation, you know what I mean, like there’s just no way. So I didn’t think anything of it, um, and finally it had been like eight or nine weeks, and I’m like, “okay, something’s wrong.” And I didn’t even think that it could be that. I assumed that maybe I had something wrong with me that was like maybe cancer or– or– or I don’t know, I’m not sure. So I knew that if I went to the doctor, that the first thing they were going to do was they were going to give me a pregnancy test, so I’m like, “okay, gotta go take that.” So I go to the store, get a pregnancy test, I come back, I take the pregnancy test, and it is like the brightest blue line I’ve ever seen in my life, and I’m like, “Are you kidding me? That’s not even–” I’m like, “this thing is broken,” you know what I mean? I’m like, “this is a gyp.” So I’m freaking out, and at this point he has not had his surgery, and he is in so much pain that he was bedridden, and I had to wake him up, you know, he is just in so much pain, he’s got this tumor and I’m like, I’m like, “Babe I don’t know what’s going on. I just took a pregnancy test and it’s positive.” And I’m like, “I don’t know what to do, I don’t even know if this is real. What is going on?” And, um, you know, he didn’t know what to do. I start crying, you know, I’m sitting on the floor, I’m like, “how could this have happened?” You know, these thoughts are swirling. I’m like do I have cancer? Do I have something else going on? Am I actually pregnant? And so I get online and I’m Googling, and I’m trying to figure everything out, and I knew that Georgia had a heart beat ban. And I knew that by when I had my period last, I knew that I wasn’t going to be able to get anything in Georgia. I was like, “Alright, I’m gonna have to probably get on a plane or go somewhere,” or something like that. And I’m Googling, and I’m reading, and I go on Reddit, and I find an abortion subReddit, and I see all these other women that are in similar positions as me, and I keep seeing Aid Access, and I’m like, “okay.” So I Google it, and it’s a very plain website, very black and white. I appreciate that, there’s no flair, you know? And, uh, I’m like alright, what do I got to lose? I guess I’m gonna contact these people. So I contact them, and they run through some prompts, and I’ve got mascara just coming down my face. I'm crying. I’m upset because I’m terrified. And I fill out the prompts and I answer their questions, and, um, that was it. And then I waited for probably about twenty-four hours, and I remember I was getting ready for work, because the entire time that this was happening, I– I can’t tell anybody, I’m completely alone, you know, I can’t tell my mom. I certainly can’t tell anybody at work and, you know, I’m– of course [Redacted] is aware of everything but, you know, I couldn’t tell any other women in my life. And that was a bad, just a terrible feeling. And, um.
25:33
So I wait, and I’m getting ready for work the next morning and I get the email from Aid Access that they’ve received all my information and that they’re reviewing everything, and they’re gonna basically set me up with a doctor and that was, um, [Redacted], I believe is how you say his name. And– and eventually they sent me a request, I think it was a Venmo request, and I sent them the money and, uh, they sent me– about maybe two days later they sent me packing information, and they sent me a extremely long list of details on how to take the pills and when to go to the hospital, which is even more terrifying. I’m like, “oh my God,” you know, now I’m in this situation and I’ve got to take this medication. I’ve never done this before, I have no one to talk to, you know, and, um, the entire time I was thinking about it. I was like, “You know they– they charge 150 dollars and I paid it.” And all I could think about is the women that don’t have that, that don’t have 150 dollars. And I know that there’s programs out there that can help them, and give them money or whatever they need to do, but all I could think about was all the other women that didn’t have the opportunities, you know. Because I heard one time that abortions will never be illegal to the elite. And that if you have enough money you will always have access to proper healthcare. And I hate that. So, I don’t know. But you know the– the– they– they sent out the pills, they were supposed to get here the day before Fourth of July. I don’t know what it is about the Fourth of July. I guess I have some weird connection with that day, but so they arrived the day after Fourth of July, and I opted, per everybody that I read online, to take this over the weekend ‘cause I knew that this was going to be quite painful, especially since after everything. I had, um, kind of done the math and I was about ten and a half weeks along at this point. Um, so I did everything as instructed, you know, um, I took the pill, uh, on Thursday, the first pill, you wait twenty-four hours and then you take the other four. And it said to actually take them vaginally, um, and, uh, it’s suggested that as– because I was so far along, and, um, so I took that and I laid down, and then [Redacted] came and checked on me, and I started crying because I felt like, you know, that it wasn’t fair. I was like, you know, “what the F?” You know, we had done everything right. I don’t understand, like we did all the things. We did– we got sober and we, you know, we stopped smoking, and we stopped drinking, and we were good people, and, like, paid our bills, and I’m like, “So why– why does this happen? Why did he get cancer and I have to go through this at the same time,” you know? Ugh, so you know he calmed me down ‘cause he’s amazing, and he ended up leaving 'cause it told me to just lay down on my back and lay in bed and relax. So I got my laptop out and I’m answering emails, and he ran an errand, ran to the pharmacy and came back, and he brought me some crackers and a protein drink and, um, uh, soon after I took the pills I started shaking violently, which was very, very odd. Um, and are you still there? Sorry, I got a call that came in. Yeah, soon after that I started shaking, uh, violently. It was very, very odd. Um, and, uh, I didn’t know what to do, I was coherent, I didn’t know what was going on, and I’m shivering, I’m shaking, and he doesn’t know what to do. I’m like, “I don’t know,” and all at once, it was the strangest thing, it was like all at once it’s like I breathed, and it just stopped, and my body calmed and I kind of laid there and I– I felt like maybe I was cramping, I wasn’t really sure.
30:03
I’m like I don’t know what to expect, I’ve never done this, and he brought me, like I said, he brought me crackers and a protein drink, and I ate something, and for some reason, um, within maybe a half an hour or an hour from him coming home and me eating those crackers, uh, everything went downhill. Everything. And the pain went from like a normal, you know, five to six to about a fifteen, and I have never experienced pain like that in my entire life. Um, I mean excruciating, and I’m pacing, and I’m hyperventilating, and I’m trying to do, you know, anything I can. I’ve already taken so much pain medication at this point, it’s not touching it, I’m laying on a heating pad, it was just– I had tears in my eyes, he’s standing there, he doesn’t know what to do and it’s scaring him because I’m freaking out so bad, like, and I’m like laying on the floor, and the cat’s coming over to me, and I’m like, “get away from me!” And, uh, finally I’m like toying with the idea of, like, I don’t want to call an ambulance, and this is terrible, but I’m like I don’t want to call an ambulance, because of the area that I live in and my neighbors, and I’m in an apartment complex, and if they see me, they will be like, “why is she going to the hospital,” and they will all question, and I just didn’t want that. So I toyed with it. I'm like, “I really don’t want to go to the hospital, but I can’t– I can’t take this and I don’t know if something’s wrong.” I don’t know if I’m bleeding internally, or if I’m having an allergic reaction, I had no idea the pain in my back and my lower area was so intense I didn’t know what else to do except to go to the hospital. And, um, before all this had happened, I had gone to the OB and had her check me out and, um, do a Pap smear and all that kind of stuff and– and give me a clean bill of health, and she told me that if I took the medication and I had an issue I was supposed to go to [Redacted], um. Now the drive to [Redacted] is about forty-five minutes, so we went to [Redacted], Georgia, which is about twenty minutes, and that was probably the longest twenty minutes of my life. I had the AC blasting on me because I was in so much pain and he finally– he dropped me off and I think I hobbled into the ER and, um, I remember just trying to hold myself up, you know, with this post. I was just in so, so much pain and, um, you know, they– they gave me a little wrist band and they sat me down, and when I finally went back to talk to the nurse who took me in on– on intake, um, way before anything happened, it was just right at the beginning, and she’s asking me these questions and she’s like, uh, you know, “Where did you get the pills? And did you talk to a doctor face to face?” And I’m like, “Well no. I found a link on reddit, and I gave a stranger 150 dollars, and they mailed me pills in the mail.” And they’re like, “you didn’t talk to a doctor?” I’m like well, “you sent me a Venmo and an email,” and I just felt like– I kind of felt like an idiot, I’m like, “wow when you say it like that,” you know. But I’m like, you know, “this is kind of bullshit, you know, I wouldn’t have done it this way if I had another choice.” This was my option to do it this way is to buy pills from somebody online that I don’t know, that I’ve never seen without a blood test or anything like that, and just, I don’t know, figure it out. That’s what women have to do because they– it’s like if we accidentally get pregnant, it’s our fault, and we have to deal with the consequences and figure it out, so it’s like, “Well, you can either take drugs at home and deal with the consequences or you can have that baby.” And I was like, “yeah this is– this is just– this is terrible.” So of course the nurses are wonderful and they weren’t judgmental, or at least they didn’t mean to be. I could tell she was just asking questions to try to find out where I was getting this from, but, you know, saying it out loud, I was like, “Wow, maybe I am kind of stupid for doing this.” But I had no choice. If I didn’t do it this way, my next choice was to go to Virginia. That’s the next closest state to us that would be able to perform a procedure or give me anything. And, um, which I was willing to do, you know, I could’ve, I just, um, I was so scared and I just wanted to be done with this, you know. Um, a lot of women it’s– it’s not that women want to have abortions, it’s that they just don’t want to be pregnant. And you shouldn’t use pregnancy as a– a punishment for doing something. That’s just not how it works. And the children that come from those pregnancies shouldn’t be punishments for I don’t know, being bad? I don’t even know what the punishment is for, you know?
35:17
So, so at the hospital, they– I sit in the waiting room for God knows how long, and, uh, they finally– they bring me back, they take my blood, and then I do an ultrasound, and to this day I’ve never seen the ultrasound. I always thought it was could go and look at it, but I don’t know. And I’ve never needed it for closure to be able to see the ultrasound, but I’ve always been curious of what it looked like. But, that’s okay, I think we’ll just keep that where it needs to lie, in the past, but, you know, we did the ultrasound, and, um, soon after that, um, I don’t really know how else to say it, but basically my water broke and, uh, it was gross and scary, and I didn’t know what was going on or what was happening. And they put me in a wheelchair and, um, brought me back to the waiting room, and of course [Redacted]’s there with me the whole time, and, again, at this time he hasn’t had surgery for his cancer, and he’s sitting there, and he’s got this tumor in his mouth, and he’s in so much pain with me, and he’s putting Orajel on it, and he’s, you know, been taking pain medication, and it’s like two people just falling apart, like what the hell. And, uh, I do remember it was so horribly ironic. I’m sitting in the waiting room and, you know, if you’ve ever been to a hospital or Emergency Room, when– and I don’t know if they do this at all hospitals, but at this particular hospital they do, but when someone has a baby they will chime, they will do a little almost like a nursery rhyme chime, and I remember sitting there, and I’m having an active abortion, and I’m crying, and I’m in pain in the waiting room, and this chime goes off above me, and it just felt like so– the irony was so, it was, uh, unmatched, I couldn’t believe it. And I was like in my– I didn’t know if I was supposed to feel guilt, um, because I really never felt guilty. I never– I was so sure of my decision to do this that I never, ever felt like a bad person, you know. If anything I was angry that I had to do it this way. So, but, uh, they brought me up, they put me in a bed, and I talked to, like, I don’t even know, four different doctors or nurses. I’m not really sure who talked to me. And, um, I remember the doctor, or the nurse had brought me a little glass of water and some crackers, and the doctor had come in soon after and she said, “You can’t eat or drink because you might have to go to surgery.” I’m like, “What, what are you talking about?” And she’s like, “Well I don’t know yet.” So, she leaves and she comes back and she has a tray of tools. And again [Redacted] is there the entire time, he’s all over there, the poor thing, he’s like white 'cause he’s scared and, um, she brings in a tray of tools and, um, she basically said that she’s gonna go in and remove it. And I’m like, “oh my God, okay.” And so she– she has me kind of position myself and, uh, the other nurse came over and she braced her hand on my shoulder. I’m like, “what is happening, I don’t know what’s going on.” And, uh, that’s what she did, she went in there and she removed it. And I remember she asked me, she was like, “um, do you want to see it?” And I think, I remember thinking, “oh my God, no!” And, um, but then I was like I guess there’s a lot of women that go through this and they need to see it for closure and I understand that, but those words just, like, burned in my brain for probably like, I don’t even know, two weeks or something. I’m like, you know, “do you want to see it?” And I’m like, “oh God.” It’s just, I don’t know. And then all at once it was over. And [Redacted] came and he hugged me and, uh, that was, that was that. And it was over, and it was like a rush of relief, and I remember being exhausted and they, um, they gave me some pain medication and they gave me a RhoGAM shot, um, to help with infection I think and, um, that was it. They gave me release papers or discharge papers probably about an hour or so later and, um, let me go home.
40:13
So, it probably took, um, oh my God probably about a month for the bleeding to finally stop. I felt like I was wearing a diaper every single day. But at the same time, you know, the next morning I felt like I had been beaten up from the inside out, but I also had this weird wave of, like, freedom, and I just felt instantly better. Um, and then every day after that my hormones started regulating again and I just started feeling like me, you know? For the longest time, um, I felt, I don’t know how to explain it, it was almost like I was diseased, I know that’s terrible, but I just felt awful, everything. I felt terrible, I was depressed, I was tired, and I’m like, I can’t believe people go through this more than once. This is just not for me. And, uh, you know, I had felt like me again, I felt like the old me was starting to, like, like the flower was budding out of the dirt again, you know? And, uh, yeah. But, and, uh, yeah, I, uh, I did notice that, like I said, throughout the entire thing, I never really had any regret, um, you know, we had always talked about how we never wanted children together, and, um, a few years ago I had had a pregnancy scare, which was basically a late period, and I, uh, it made us have a really, really, um, stern conversation, you know, because at the time I had thought I was pregnant, I wasn’t. And I was, uh, I had to talk to him about that, and I’m thinking, I’m like thinking, “oh my God, he’s gonna want this child, you know, this is his chance to have a kid, I’m gonna have to have this baby.” But he was like, “no I told you I didn’t want children. And that’s that.” You know? Um, but it definitely made us really, really open up and talk about it, which was great. It made us feel closer and more connected. Um, so when– because of that first conversation, the conversation to have the abortion the second time, it wasn’t really even a conversation, it just was. You know, that was what was going to happen and he was fine with that. He was completely supportive, he was very happy, he did not want a child either, um, and, you know, I mentioned this in our pre-interview, and I think I wrote it in the email as well, but, you know, part of the reason why I don’t and haven’t mentioned anything to anyone is that, um, I feel like a lot of women, um, and men, but a lot of women, you know, they– they– they say that their feminists, and they say that they support pro-choice, um, but then when it actually comes down to it and somebody’s going through it, they change their tune. And, um, you know, they might be prochoice for someone who was maybe a sexual assault victim, or, you know, maybe they are sixteen years old, or I don’t know, they fall into a situation that they can’t help. But when somebody is like, somebody like me, who has been sober for five years, who has, you know, I’ve got a home, I have a great partner, I have a job, you know, everything is set up to where I could be a good mother, but I just don’t want to. And I don’t think that that’s enough of a reason to have children just because you’re supposed to. And I think that if you ever have to question your choice for children, like, “should I have this baby?” I don’t know, I think you need to be so sure because to be a mother is to give everything and it’s– it’s not– it shouldn’t be a choice that’s made by a law.
44:36
You know, those are people. Those are little kids that are going to grow up and they’re gonna be people like us. And they’re gonna pay taxes and have jobs and relationships and boyfriends and girlfriends, um, they’re not– they shouldn’t be used to make a point, to punish people, and I just, that’s how I– I see these laws when they put them in place, you know, like these six week heartbeat bans, you know, they put them in it’s like, “well you should have– you should have been more careful.” And it’s like, “well I was careful, you know,” people get IUDs and things like that and stuff happens. That’s not a reason to have a child because a mistake happened, you know, nothing else is treated that way except for pregnancy. So, but, um, yeah after the abortion I felt good, and, um, I went back to the OB and she was happy with everything and, um, she was super kind and supportive, and she told me to wait a few weeks and then, about a month or so, and take another pregnancy test. So I did, um, and it– it was positive but it was very faint, um, so I waited another like two weeks after that and took another one and it was negative. And that was like the greatest feeling in the entire world. I was like, “It’s done! It is done! I can– I am okay, I survived, we survived and we can move on.” And, um, that was probably the beginning of August and it was right around the time we had scheduled the surgery for him to remove the cancer. And his surgery was on, um, [Redacted]. So, and he was there through my birthday, again, apparently my birthdays are just, they’re just gonna be like that, but, um, I will say that when he was in the hospital, I mean he’s– he’s in the hospital with a trach in his neck, I went to work that day, 'cause what else am I gonna do? So I go to the office and I’m standing with a coworker, and in walks a guy and he’s got flowers with a happy birthday card for me, and I’m like, “you’ve gotta be kidding me.” I’m like, “he sent me flowers from a hospital bed?” I’m like, “damn, okay.” I’m like, “that’s pretty good.” And it’s funny, I’ve got all these male coworkers, they come in and they’re like, “[Redacted] sent you that?” And I’m like, “Yup. Don’t let your wife see 'cause they’re gonna expect that. That’s a good man right there.” It was just like, he’s like literally laying there, he’s just been all cut up, he’s, he’s– he’s trying to just make it another day, and the first thing he thought about was me. Awesome. So, but, um, but yeah, even now, you know, nobody knows, and I kind of wanted to tell my mom because she’s been pretty supportive and she’s always been the one where she’s like, um, you know, “Don’ have children unless you want to and it is your choice to have children.” She was like, “don’t let anybody pressure you into doing something like that,” 'cause she was like, “it is a lifelong decision if you have children. It doesn’t stop at eighteen, it’s forever.” She’s like, “you and I are talking and you’re in your thirties.” (Laughter) You know? And, uh, so, but I just don’t know, you know? People say that they support that, but I don’t know how they would really act, and if I tell somebody that I did that, and they– they judged me or they changed the way that they see me, it’s something I can’t ever get back. And, um, I don’t know, I hate that that’s that way. But, yeah. I don’t know, I– I hate to think this is something I’m just gonna hold with me forever, because I like to share this thing, because I know that there are other women like me out there that are in their thirties and have careers and– and feel stuck, and they have to do this thing and, um, even if I can’t talk to my close friend group, maybe I can connect to somebody else and they can see my story and be like, “holy shit, that’s just like me,” you know? I don’t know. You know? I tell [Redacted] the same thing, you know, with his, uh, him going through cancer twice now. And going through sobriety, I mean my God, I’m like, “You need to share your story. You need to let people know that they’re not alone and that there are, um, there are people like you, you know? Um, but Aid Access was, uh, a Godsend, you know? They sent me a follow up after everything and– and checked on me, which I thought was just so cool and I– they asked me to write a little bit, so I wrote everything down, and I told them how grateful I was, and they gave me my life back and they made me feel free again and, uh, strong and, um, I was so happy, and I gave them a donation and stuff like that. And I was like, I was just so happy, I was like, “anything I can do to help I can do because I feel like you seriously gave me my– you gave me my life back.” You know, I felt like I was chained and I’m so scared and–
50:19
I had always been a bleeding heart feminist, and I was always pro-choice, and I always was a believer in that pure, real feminism was not to have children, not have children, it was the idea that you could choose the path that you want to do, and to be a woman was to be able to do what you want to do without anybody else telling you that you have to go this way, or you have to go this way and pressured into one thing. And then, you know, I’ve always been supportive of that and then now I’m, I’m really part of that cause, you know, now it’s me. And, um, I’m like okay, I guess I gotta help myself, but– but that’s okay 'cause here I am and things are good now, so but, um, but yeah. Your last thing says no shame in her story, she’s an open book. That is true. I am an extreme open book. So, I– I tell people, um, 'cause like at work and stuff people are kind of weary about asking me about his cancer and I’m like, “please ask me,” because I know that there’s not a lot of outlets and it’s hard to find somebody that you can just ask open questions, and I’m like, “if I can answer one question for somebody,” then that’s fine.You know, because I like when people do that for me, you know? And so anything that has to do with his cancer, or sobriety, or abortion, I try to, um, share my story because then you know, you never really know the power of collaboration, you know? I don’t know. But, um, I think I touched on everything (laughter), I think so. I feel like I’ve been rambling for fifty-five minutes now. No, um, yeah this, uh, this whole experience was, uh, it was eye opening, um, I think it just made me more pissed off than anything because, uh, I hated that I had to do it this way. And I hated that I didn’t have any support, you know, I had [Redacted], um, and I had Aid Access, but I didn’t have, like, a doctor that I could go to, you know. I even called one, um, OB and they basically told me, they were like, “yeah we don’t do anything like that.” I’m like, “oh, okay.” You know, I guess I called the wrong one. Um, and it just, uh, it made me pissed off, you know. I was already angry about, you know, Roe vs. Wade already getting turned over, and then this happened and now– now I– I really know what it’s like to be on the other side. And, uh, it’s just– it’s bullshit. It feels like, um, it feels, I hate to be so conspiracy, like, but it just feels so, um, personal and vindictive and a way to control women. Um, and I– I find it funny, you know, that birth rates are going down because women are like, “well fine, if you’re going to take away our birth control and our access to medication and things like that and abortion, then we’re just not going to have children. We’re not going to have relationships with men and we’re just not gonna have children.” Because it feels like society has shown us that you’re not gonna support us with whatever choice that we make, you’re not gonna support us, so fine. And, uh, I don’t blame ‘em for that, you know. But, you know, when I was young I knew I never wanted to have kids, I just, uh, I never had baby dolls, I thought they were kinda ugly, sorry. But they were not for me. I always had stuffed animals, I always had little stuffed bears or cats or something like that, I was just more of an animal lover than a kid lover. And when I became like a teenager and a young adult, um, I never wanted to hold babies. I think toddlers are cute. I love kids, I think they’re funny and they’re silly, but they just not, um, I don’t know, I’m just not a kid person I guess, and I thought that would change as I got into my, you know, mid, late twenties, and then I thought it would change after meeting [Redacted] and being with him for a little bit, and then I also thought that it would change after getting sober, and then I thought it would change after getting a career and turning thirty, and I’m like, “you know what? I just don’t think I want kids.” And then I started seeing other women on Reddit and TikTok and stuff and they’re saying the same thing, and I’m like, then I hear this word childfree and I’m like, okay, so maybe it’s okay if I don’t want to have kids, you know. Maybe I’m not a bad person for not wanting to raise children and just wanting to, you know, travel and work and– and have a partner and a life, you know?
55:39
And, uh, so I was like okay, maybe I should start living for me and not what other people deem is the best way to live. And, um, I was like, yeah, I think that’s it. I think I just don’t want to have children, and I thought we were in the clear for years, you know, we were fine, uh, until this past summer when all this happened. And now I’m like really, after all these years, I gotta start thinking about birth control, you know? I’m like well that sucks, I didn’t want to take anything but– but, uh, you know, we found out afterwards that even though he’s been through all the cancer treatment and everything that he is still viable and that, um, all men are viable unless you literally are missing everything. That is the only way to be completely sterile, so be careful (laughter). And, uh, yeah so, but, uh, yeah I mean Aid Access, if they weren’t– if they weren’t there I don’t really know what I would have done, I think I would have had to drive to Virginia. Um, and I also thought about flying to Colorado was another option. Um, and I hated that I had to do that, and all I could think about, like I said earlier, was like the other women that, um, fall into these types of situations and they don’t have the means to– to do that, you know. I see these stories on Reddit, these girls, and they’re in Texas or wherever they are and their only option is to drive to, you know, New Mexico and, um, and go there. Um, I’m going to pause for a second, my cat wants to come in okay? Um, but, you know, these girls and they– they’re young, they’re 18 and they don’t know what to do and, and they– they have to drive thousands of miles, and they pay thousands of dollars for hotels and these procedures and it’s just like– you know, I read a story about a woman, she was sixty-four years old and she got pregnant, and thank God she was in New York where you can get an abortion up to twenty-four weeks, which I think is the most in the United States, but my God, she’s sixty-four years old, you know what I mean? She didn’t know she could get pregnant, she thought she had been in menopause for years and then this happens. I’m like, so– so what do you do? You use the law to force this sixty-four year old woman to have a child? What the hell is that? That makes, that– and then it– because of those types of situations, it shows me that it was never about the children, it’s never about the babies, they don’t care about that. It’s all about controlling us and keeping us exactly where they want to be. They don’t care what happens to these babies that are born! They don’t care. They end up with parents that don’t want them, or, you know, single parents or the foster system. But they don’t care because as long as you didn’t have an abortion that’s all they care about is keeping you contained.
59:10
You know and I– I– I hear these– these other women, too, where they are, um, you know, they come from religious families and they don’t know what to do, you know? And I feel for them because, for me, the– the question was so easy. It was, “This is going to happen. I don’t know how I’m gonna get an abortion, but I’m gonna get one.” You know, whether it’s I go online and I find the medication, or I go to another state, it was gonna happen. Um, but some women, I mean, they really, really have a hard time making that decision and I– I feel for them because, you know, I– I try to support them from afar on Reddit or something like that because I– I can’t make that decision for them, you know, you have to reach in and you have to make that decision on your own. Um, but I– I know it’s hard because you– you have this sense of guilt, and at the same time you have a sense of– of, um, you know, should I do this, or is this– this, I don’t know, what is my destiny, you know what I mean? I apologize, I’m gonna stop again, she opened the door. Yeah, so, um, but I feel for women that have to make that decision and it’s not easy, you know. Um, my ex’s sister has, I don’t know if she has three or four children, she’s got quite a few children, but for her, she knew that she always wanted to be a mother, right? And she’s a great mom, she really is. And, she’s just, she– that was her calling was she wanted to be a teacher and have a husband and have lots of babies, and I think that that’s great. So why is it so bad to be on the other side of the spectrum, you know? If she is so sure in her decision to be a great mom and have children and live a beautiful life and all these kinds of things, then why is it so wrong from someone like me to be on the other side and say, “I don’t really want to have children. I still want the career and the partner, I just don’t. I, uh, I don’t want to raise children.” Um, I don’t know. Um, and kind of on a tangent, but it’s kind of interesting, you know, my– I have, uh, my dad has two sisters and they live out west. One of them lives in [Redacted] and the other one lives in [Redacted]. They are both from [Redacted] and they don’t have any children, they never had children, but both of them, when they were 16, had gotten pregnant by their boyfriends and had children. And my mother dropped that ball on me probably like two years ago when we were down in Florida together, and she proceeds to tell me that my two aunts had babies that they had given up for adoption when they were in high school, and I’m like, “Excuse me?” I’m like, “So you’re telling me I have a forty-year-old cousin somewhere,” I mean in [Redacted], they have no idea, and I’m like, I don’t get it, I just don’t get it. I don’t understand, and they don’t talk to that person, and that person, I don’t know, do they question who’s my mom for their whole life? They– they go walking around this earth and they– they wonder, “Why did my mom give me up?” You know, and, um, yeah. I’ve never asked my aunt about it, I never will because the way that my mom tells me about it is that both of them don’t talk about it and, um, and I’m sure it hurts, you know, I’m sure there’s a bit of guilt in there and anger because they were pushed in a situation to have a baby that they didn’t want, and then when they did have that baby they were forced to give it up because they were children. I mean they’re 16, you remember when you were 16, why are you worrying about having babies, you should be worrying about getting your driver’s license, you know? It’s just, it’s not right. But– but, um, you know, working with– with you and Aid Access, I do try to be an open book as much as I can and, um, try to give as many, um, details and talk about my life and, um, I always found that the power of collaboration was just one of the best things that you can do. Um, you know, I run a decent-sized team at my work, and I always try to encourage people to speak up, um, 'cause you never know what somebody might have to say. You know, even if they think that their voice is so small down there, they could have something so important that they– they just could change everything, and I’m always open to everybody. Um, you know, when [Redacted] went through his– his most recent diagnosis, I’m searching and searching and searching, and it was just hard to find people who had been through something similar, you know. Um, and it– you can feel very alone, you know? And, you know, you’re not alone, you know that other people go through these things, so why does it feel like we’re so alone?
1:05:00
You know, why does it feel like there’s nobody there to talk to? Or, we’re– we’re just, I don’t know. Why does it feel that way? And it’s because it’s been– it’s– it’s taboo to talk about these things. I hate that. But, mhm, you know, I’m, um, the abortion itself was, uh, very eye opening, I mean it wasn’t things that I didn’t already know, and, like I said, I think it made me a little bit more angry and, uh, I went and bought some t-shirts, you know, I have my, uh, “Forced birth is not freedom” t-shirt. And [Redacted]’s like, “Are you gonna wear that in public?” I’m like, “It is a little intense, but, it’s just how I feel, you know?” Um, I have another one that says, “Abort the Supreme Court.” And it’s funny, I’ve worn it to like the farmer’s market here downtown, and, um, I see the really young girls, the young– the Gen Zs, the twenty-year-olds, they look at it, they kinda just look, you know, and I– I can see that they see me, um, but it’s really the older women, the ones that are like fifties, sixties, where they’re like, “Yes!” You know? And they just love it because they’re like, “Dude, we’ve been fighting this bullshit for like forty-five years, you know what I mean? We’re sick of it, like, make a decision, give us our rights, and move on,” you know? It’s like we’ve got so much other shit we’ve got to deal with and we’re fighting over this, and– and it just is like, ugh, God, it’s stupid. It’s really stupid. You know? And, uh, you know, like with the nurses questioning me when I went in there, and, uh, again they were so kind, you know, when– when I say they were questioning me, it wasn’t like they were judging me in any way, it was more of just asking questions 'cause they have to. They, you know, this person comes in presenting pain and they’re asking you know, “What did you take?” And I’m telling them that like, you know, “I got– I got a USPS package with a– with a box of pills, you know?” It’s like scary, you know, and I’m like, “I don’t know.” I was so desperate for help that I didn’t know what to do and, you know, I felt like the OB was there but– but when everything was happening and I was in pain and I’m rolling around on the floor, I tried to call them but it was too late, it was four o’clock on a Friday, nobody’s around. Nobody was there, you know? I’m like, “you know this wouldn’t have to happen this way.” And I start reading these stories of women in similar situations where they couldn’t go to a hospital and they just had to deal with it. And I can’t even believe that. That– you don’t do that with any other procedure at all, you know? They would never tell you to go home and just do something like this and just deal with it, you know what I– It is so maddening that this is even a thing. But, I don’t know, you know, um, I wish that I could tell people that I was talking about this, but I can’t unfortunately and, um, that’s okay, you know? Even if I can’t talk directly to some of my friends and things like that, at least I can– maybe if I can touch one person then, then I’m okay. Hi. [Redacted] just came in. (Laughter). Yeah, so um, but, uh, yeah. Close the door. (Laughter) Close the door. (Laughter). Uh, but anyways, so, um, yeah I don’t know, I don’t really know what else I have.
1:09:00
Um, [Redacted], thank you. I’m wondering if you might be able to share a bit about your history with contraception and birth control and where you are now.
Sure. So, um, yeah absolutely. I, um, I took birth control from probably 15 maybe just before I was 15 all the way up to about in my twenties, and then I took it sporadically. And, um, I think, you know, my twenties and stuff like that I was using drugs and whatnot, I wasn’t, you know, doing it with my partner at the time, we were kind of just using drugs, and then after that, you know, we broke up, and then I met [Redacted], and then we really didn’t use contraceptives, you know, maybe the pull out method for our first part of our relationship, and then we kinda just went loosey goosey, especially after his treatment. You know, um, 'cause we were so sure that he was sterile and nothing would happen. Um, so I really didn’t use anything for, uh, yeah almost about five years of our relationship, and then after this happened, you know, I finally, um, went back to the OB and she gave me a prescription for a birth control pill. Um, and she let me know there are other options, but, you know, we’re– we’re here right now. So.
Um, thank you [Redacted]. I’m wondering if you might be willing to share a bit more about your childhood, uh, during your pre-interview you shared going to [Redacted] for your summers, and I’m just wondering if you might be able to share– just give us a stronger sense of– of almost living like a– like an only child with a half brother ten years older than you, what that experience was like.
Sure, yeah, um, we went to, or I went to [Redacted], it was kinda awesome, it was like, uh, my aunt, both my aunts at the time lived out there. One of them, like I said, has since moved to [Redacted], but they both lived, uh, in the desert in [Redacted], and, um, uh, we went there, I don’t even know how many years it was. It was every year and it was for like, two to three to four weeks or something and it was great. I mean I would fly out there and stay with them, and they were both like they were like aunts but also like mothers sort of, I don’t know, there was like this weird dynamic of, um, they’re very caring and kind, and I love going out there, and they were horse people, so we would ride horses on the ranch and, um, you know, it was, uh, it was a really great experience being with both of them. Having not only my mom at home, but having these– these women, again strong women in my life supporting me and, um, creating some memories that I could never ever replicate, you know? Being out in the high desert, out in, uh, [Redacted], and, uh, being with these two cowgirls, you know, but you know and my– my brother, again, even though he is my brother, right? But he was a half brother so it was– it was strange we never had like, you know, like I mentioned with [Redacted], like, he never, um, we just never had that closeness, you know what I mean. If I ever went through something, he was definitely not the first one that I would call on, you know. I think the closest that we’ve been in the last few years is while [Redacted] was going through his surgery and his recovery he was texting me throughout and asking how I was doing and how [Redacted] was, um, that’s about it. I mean me and my brother, besides that, might text once every two months, three months or something like that, seriously. Um, and it’s not that we don’t like each other, that’s the thing it’s just that we don’t– we just never had that connection, you know? And then I’ll message him, you know, like there was a really bad storm that went through [Redacted] in his area and I’m like, you know, I’m like, “hey, hope you guys are doing okay down there.” And then he’ll text back and then that’s it, that’s the only communication we really have. Um, 'cause again, like when, you know, when I was growing up, by the time I was 5,6 years old, you know, he’ he’s 15, 16, he’s got his license and he’s driving around, and he’s doing his thing, so you know I was kinda like an only child and, um, I mean it wasn’t bad, you know. Again, my parents were awesome and they worked really hard to give me a really great life, you know? I mean it was average, you know? You lived in the suburbs and you went to, you know, elementary school and middle school and then you just whatever. Nothing really exciting, which is kind of a good childhood when there’s nothing really exciting that happened, you know?
1:15:00
But, um, yeah it definitely did feel like an only child but, uh, it was okay, you know? My dad moved out, it was weird, you know, he lived in like this apartment, it was like down the road and, uh, you know, [Redacted] jokes that my dad never really fell out of love with my mom, and that they’ve always had this, uh, connection forever and, uh, that they, um, you know, he would– he would never move away, he’s always been fifteen minutes away from my mom, it’s kind of comical, but, um, but yeah, so hm.
What, what kinds of things would you do with your friends when you were a kid? What were the activities you did? How did you get into trouble, anything like that?
Hmm, we kind of hung around the house, you know there was a creek in our backyard, spent a lot of time there. I had a neighbor, her name was [Redacted], and she was kind of like my best friend growing up and, um, you know she was awesome and– and she lived next to us all the way up through high school, and then I think they finally sold the house and moved away. But, um, I didn’t, you know, I was a pretty normal, good kid playing in the neighborhood, riding on bikes and things like that, probably up until about 14, 15 is when things went kind of weird. And I started getting into trouble. Um, when I was, uh, 16 I got in trouble for curfew and, um, I don’t know if it’s like this in every other state, but in Georgia if you are under 18 and you’re out past, um, a certain time, you can get in trouble, um, and, uh, I was hanging out with my boyfriend at the time and my mom wanted me to come home and I wouldn’t, um, so she called the police on me and they arrested me and, um, yeah, they put me in juvie for a weekend and that was awful. But she was trying to teach me a lesson, and she was trying to wrangle me in and bring me home, um, but yeah that was the first time I got in trouble. It was weird and I hated it because I felt like I didn’t belong in there, and I didn’t think I did anything wrong, but, you know, technically I did. Um, but she, uh, yeah she– she did that trying to get me to come home. But all it did was wait ‘til I was 18 and then just leave again. Um, and then, uh, yeah after that, you know, I didn’t really have a whole lot of run ins with the cops or anything like that, but I, uh, I had a few before I got sober, I had a few, um, situations that I got into where I would I got pulled over and– and, um, you know, they found alcohol in the car and, um, there was one time they– they– I had fallen asleep at a gas pump, and they had me blow, and I blew a certain amount that was over the legal limit, and instead of arresting me, they actually called my then boyfriend and had him come pick me up. And I, to this day, cannot believe that they let me go and, uh, 'cause I was clearly operating a vehicle, um, being intoxicated, um. And then the– the final time that I was actually arrested, which was the first part of me trying to get sober was, um, I had a ticket for running a stop sign that I just didn’t pay because I spent money on other things besides important things like paying off the ticket, and the ticket turned into a bench warrant, and I got pulled over, um, and I was actually leaving the methadone clinic and I got pulled over and, um, they searched my car, they found alcohol in it and everything. I don’t think I blew into the breathalyzer that time, but it didn’t really matter they had found alcohol anyways.
1:20:00
And they, uh, arrested me because I had a bench warrant, but they did not give me a DUI, so I ended up going to jail, but I only went for about five hours and it was, uh, traumatizing. It was the worst experience of my life, I’ve never experienced anything like that, and it was the first tick of the box that, again, got me into the path that eventually got me sober. Um, because I lost my license and, um, so for about two months before I– two or three months before I got sober, I was just walking around town because I had no car, I had lost it. It was awful. Um, but, um, but back– back in my childhood, my childhood was– was, um, pretty normal, you know? I know a lot of people say that, but you know, my parents got divorced but it really wasn’t a big deal. I think because it was so amicable and it really wasn’t, we still had Christmases together. It twas just like the same life that I had already been living, but they weren’t having screaming matches in the house, you know? So, nothing really changed. I mean, I was– I played piano, I took piano lessons, I was in orchestra, you know, I got okay grades, I was never super great at school, but it’s whatever. And, um, yeah, it was pretty normal up until probably my teen years is when I started gettin’ super rebellious, so. And, um, [Redacted]– I’m going to have to pause again, my phone’s gonna die, so I’m gonna go get my charger real quick. I’ll be right back. I’m just gonna have to hold it. That’s okay. Um, yeah. Yeah my childhood, like I said, was really uneventful, which I guess, again, is– is a good thing. I mean, really nothing ever happened until I became a teen and I started kind of smoking pot and experimenting with my friends and things like that being a little brat, um, getting into trouble, um, but, um, things didn’t get really, really bad until probably my early, mid twenties as far as the drinking and the partying and all that nonsense. So, yeah. Hm. And you know my– my mom, uh, you know, she tried to support me, you know, she tried to use the tough love thing when she called the cops on me and sent me to juvie for the weekend, um, I think eventually what really helped her was, before I got sober, for about, I don’t even know, six months maybe even a year, she had started going to Al-Anon, and, uh, she was trying to understand the disease of alcoholism and addiction because she was the black sheep, she was the good one, she was the one that got out of [Redacted] and moved and, um, started a family and had a career, and didn’t have any addiction issues, while the rest of her family, um, are and were, um, gambling addicts, smokers, drinkers, all that, all that. Um, so she wanted to understand kind of not even the science behind alcoholism, but she wanted to understand the alcoholic brain and why people choose to do the things that they do, and what she can do, and what she learned, and I learned this too, is that, you know, when somebody in your family is sick like that, the whole family is sick. And everybody needs to get help. And she did. She went to Al-Anon for a few months to understand everything, and so when I finally got sober, um, it was like the puzzle pieces coming together, 'cause she had already done the work. She had– had worked on herself and understanding and– and learning, and then when I eventually got sober it was like everything came together and we were finally able to be a family unit. And it was like– like a– like the healing could begin because we had gotten past that. And, uh, yeah my mom she saved my life you know? My dad has always been a supporter as well and he’s always been super great, but I just don’t think he understood what I was going through like my mom did. You know, he was always there and he was never judgy, but I think he just didn’t have the, I don’t know, I don’t know if it’s empathy or understanding or what it was. Um, that she was able to convey to me where she understood where I was coming from, and she– even though she never, you know, my mom’s the kind of person that might have one glass of wine at Christmas and then not drink again for a whole year, so she’s never understood what it’s like to have these painful thoughts. Um, but she– she has the ability to sympathize and empathize with people that do, and, um, and I can’t thank her enough for that.
1:25:00
So, but, um, yeah. And, um, you know, um, I’m reading some of the notes, yeah, so after getting sober at, um, 27, just before 28, you know, it’s been, um, that was July 7th that I got sober, so it’s been, what is that, five years and almost three months? Um, you kind of lose count after a while, which is kind of cool, you know? I’ve never sat out and counted all the days, but it’s been a long time and, um, you know the whole process of– of getting sober was such a traumatizing experience to have to go to the hospital and, um, you know, hope that everything’s okay 'cause it’s like, “Okay, now you’ve stopped drinking, but how much damage did you do?” You know? And I– I don’t know, you know? I feel okay now, but it was, uh, it was really bad, you know? Before I had gotten sober I had started having seizures, um, and I had a couple of them, one of them put me in the hospital, um, and it was kind of terrible. I had gotten out of the hospital and I really took a look at my drinking, um, but that literally lasted twenty-four hours and I had a glass of wine in my hand and I was drinking again. And I was like, “okay, well I’ll have a glass of wine but then I won’t drink anything else,” and it was like, nope, it was right back to vodka. Like instantaneously. And then– and then it was probably another good four months before I got sober after that, so. And I– I still have pictures and things like that from when I– before I got sober and I, um, I, uh, I look terrible. I– my face is swollen, my skin is gray, my hair is thinner than it is now and I just– I look, um, I look ill and– and broken. And, um, and not like me. And it’s weird to look back at that 'cause it’s like, um, I wonder how close I was to, um, being gone forever, you know? Um, I don’t know. I think when you get to that point, um, whether you’re an addict or not, I don’t think it’s that you want to necessarily kill yourself, but I think you just don’t care if it– if it happens, you just kind of are ready to go. You’re ready for it to stop, and that sucks. But, but I mean, five years later, things are better and it’s uh, it’s uh, you know, looking back on it and talking about it now, it’s so funny because it feels like it’s– it feels like I’m talking about somebody else’s life. It feels like I’m trying to remember things that somebody had told me because they’re so far removed from myself now. It’s been over five years that it’s just like, it feels strange talking about it, you know? Even the abortion over the summer felt like, um, it feels like it was eons ago, you know? And then I think I’m like, “okay, am I just like pushing it out of my brain and this is like some weird subconscious attempt of, like, putting this away, or am I moving through it and I'm able to move on with my life, you know?” I don’t know. Should I even be questioning it? Should I just move on, you know? I don’t know. I have no idea. I’m just kind of living and vibing. So, yeah. I don’t know.
01:30:00
Um, yeah I had a, uh, quite a few people that I lost to addiction. Um, I think in the notes I see that I mentioned my friend [Redacted]. And her– she passed away over the summer, and then her sister passed away just before Christmas, um, in, uh, 2021. And, um, I’ve lost quite a few people, um, to that, um, I had another friend that actually recently died, um, it was, uh, sleep apnea, but it was from drinking. He was drinking and he didn’t have a CPAP machine, and he ended up passing away. Uh, not to mention the countless people that, you know, [Redacted]’s father died of alcoholism, his uncle died of alcoholism, my uncle died of alcoholism, you know, and it is a ugly, ugly death. It’s terrible. And, uh, you know, opiates especially affected my generation, and I know they have affected everybody’s generation but, um, the amount of opiate-related deaths that have just skyrocketed, um, for my age group is just, it is incredible, it is just shocking. And, um, it’s really sad, you know? It’s really sad when I think about people that this happens to and, um, you know, we had, uh, I had a friend that was, um, that I met in rehab and, uh, he passed away from an accidental overdose, um. Actually there was two guys that we had met, um, that had died from an accidental overdose, um, not to mention just people that have taken their own life, not even drug-related, just, uh, you know, from the depression that comes from that, you know. You have these thoughts in your head and you just want to make them stop and you’re willing to do anything to do that, and you have these spinning racing thoughts, you use drugs and alcohol to keep them calm and then when that doesn’t work, then what do you do, you know? I don’t know. But, um, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s weird how much it’s affected my life, and I always think, like, I’m, you know, I log onto Facebook and I always wonder if somebody else is going to go over the weekend, and, um, on the positive side, I do have a lot of friends that have gotten sober, and I like that. And I– I just had a friend that celebrated ten years of sobriety. Um, which is incredible, I mean I– you just can’t even think that that’s even like, my God, you’ve had five years, you’ve had ten years? You’ve had how many years? And you haven’t had a drink? That is just so awesome. And you look back, and you look at their life, and they’re just living in, you know, they’ve got partners and jobs and kids and it’s just the coolest. So, I don’t know. But, um, you know, up through my– before I did get sober, um, I worked in a bar, which was kind of funny 'cause working at the bar, being an alcoholic, moving to a different restaurant, going to rehab, um, you know, anybody who’s ever worked in a bar knows the type of people that work at bars, and the type of atmosphere that you put yourself in. Um, but uh, so it was– it was just kind of comical to put myself back into that, um, but it was surprisingly easier than I thought. Um, I think that I was so done with drinking and I was so angry that alcohol had taken so much from me that I just didn’t fucking care about drinking anymore. I had drank enough for three and a half lifetimes and then some and I just was like, it was– it was easy to fall back into a routine without the booze. And, um, I don’t know. You know, it was nice to be able to kind of just move through it and move on. But I mean I– I had a huge support system, I’m part of a, um, group on Facebook called [Redacted] Recovery Community, shout out to them. They are amazing and they are a wonderful, large group of people that, um, they just are people in recovery, and anything you need that is recovery-related, they’re there to help you, and it goes back to the power of collaboration, you know, of getting out there and– and asking questions and doing the things you need to do for yourself.
1:35:00
Um, yeah, mmm. Yeah, and, um, [Redacted]’s been sober for a while, too. Um, He’s been sober for over five years as well, which is great, I’m really proud of him. And I think that’s why it made the cancer diagnosis so much worse. Because you feel like you’re finally doing everything right and, uh, and then all this happens. And, you know, the first time he went through cancer treatment, he was going through radiation and chemo and, um, he was really ill, it was like in the thick of it, and he was at home, he was in bed, and I was driving back from my dad’s house and, uh, I’m driving. I’m in traffic and the traffic kinda had compressed a little bit, and somebody in a Tacoma had hit me from behind and they totaled my car. And I was fine physically, I was shaken up a little bit, and, um, I remember, um, calling my mom and she’s like, “What?” You know freaking out and I’m like, “I don’t know what to do,” and, you know, “[Redacted]’s sick and he’s in bed and I don’t know what’s going on,” and, um, yeah that was terrible, and I ended up, uh, having– my car got totaled. I had to buy a new car by myself, and, um, you know he felt awful himself, 'cause he couldn’t be there, he just– and I was like, “You know what? It’s a car, just focus on tomorrow and we’ll be okay.” And, uh, we’ll move through it, which we did, you know, we always seem to figure it out together, it’s really strange. I don’t know how, we just kinda always do that, we’re always just like, I don’t know, we’ll figure it out because we always do. Um, but, yeah. Just, um, it’s just– it sucks when you feel like you’re doing everything right and you keep getting shit on, you know? Your car gets totaled, you get cancer again, I mean my God, to go through cancer once is terrible enough and then now you have to do this whole battle again? And then on top of that now your wife gets pregnant and you have to go through this? You have to go through this– this thing. I mean, you know, I always ask him, “When is our moment in the sun? When is it our turn to just live?” I don’t know what else, I think I’m at a stopping point.
Um, [Redacted], I was curious, um, you mentioned, uh, how individuals use, um, drugs and alcohol to sort of quiet down some of the, uh, thoughts that they might want to suppress. I’m curious if you’re comfortable talking about it? if you can identify what– what– either what you’re chasing with your own addiction, or if there was– if you had tied it to anything in terms of your using?
So, what was weird was that when I went to rehab and I met all these people, and, uh, some of them, a lot of them, most of these people came from really bad situations: they were homeless, they had no parents, they were either dead or they were adopted, you know, or they, um, they had been beaten by their boyfriends, or they just were in these horrible, horrible situations, and they had just terrible childhoods, um, and I was not that way.
1:40:00
And so I was like, trying to figure out, I’m like, okay, why am I like this when I– when I had like– okay, my parents got divorced, but they again didn’t have a bad divorce, you know? They were so amicable. So I’m like, “why am I having these thoughts and things like that?” And you know anybody who’s ever dealt with any type of, um, depression or anxiety or– or any type of compulsive thoughts, they’re like these– these thoughts inside your mind and you’re like, “where are these coming from?” It’s like they come from nowhere. It’s like they’re coming from me and it’s like why am I having these thoughts that are telling me, you know, I’m a bad person. And I don’t know, it’s strange, and again anybody who’s ever dealt with depression, it’s like to feel depressed is like I don’t even know. It’s not like being sad. It’s not like watching a sad movie, or listening to a sad song or crying at a funeral. It’s not like that, it’s like– it’s like you’re coated in something and it is, uh, I don’t know, it’s like everything has the volume turned down. And, um, it’s– it’s almost like there is a shade of darkness on everything and, um, you– you don’t know what to do, you know? Or you have these thoughts of anxiety where you think, “Everybody’s looking at me, everybody’s talking about me, they probably think I’m so dumb, they probably think I look so stupid,” you know? And so you– you use drugs and alcohol to give you that confidence when you get to the party because, you know, nobody likes the weird girl that’s quiet, but they sure like [Redacted] when she’s two shots in and she’s like cool and dancing and she’s funny and she’s cracking jokes, and, um, same with the depression. You get these thoughts and you’re like, “well these thoughts are never gonna go away so I might as well try to just numb myself and pass the time, you know?” I can’t feel these thoughts if I can’t feel anything. And, uh, I mean, you know, the thoughts and depression, um, especially recently it– it– it’s very strange, and I’m sure there are other people that feel like this, but I can feel myself when I’m slipping into a depression and, um, recently, like when [Redacted] went into surgery and I was alone here at home while he was in the hospital, and, um, it’s weird, it’s like– it’s like I said, it’s like everything is muted, you know? It’s like the TV’s on but you can’t understand what they’re saying, and you’re going through the motions, and you’re putting your shoes on, and you’re charging your cell phone, and you’re getting in the car, and then I don’t know, you blink and it’s the next day. And then you do it over and over and over again and then when– when you’re– when you’re 16 and you have those thoughts and you don’t know why you feel like this, and you don’t know that anybody else feels like this, and you just want people to like you, and you just want a friend or somebody that you can connect with, and you feel like the only way to do that is to drink, or to smoke pot or– or whatever, and, um, you know, then you realize that those thoughts don’t go away, so you try to do more and it’s just, um, it’s exhausting. It is so exhausting to live that life for so long. And I think I finally discovered after getting sober is that those thoughts and feelings of depression and anxiety and whatever, they’re never going to go away and, um, I can’t expect them to just never be there ever again. They’re just going to be part of who I am and I just have to learn how to move through them, you know? And, um, that– that’s just how it is, you know?
1:44:00
You know [Redacted] is similar in that way where we talk about mental health and all that kind of stuff all the time, and he is a person that I feel like I can I open up and I can say these things to somebody who’s never dealt with that might think you’re weird, they’re like, “Really? You think like that?” But [Redacted] is like, “Yeah, I know what you mean,” and it’s like, “Thank you, thank you. I’m not crazy, I know I’m not crazy, but I just needed to hear it out loud.” And, uh, you know again to be a teenager and to feel those things, and to feel so lost and alone, um, hmmmm, sucks. It’s just, um, it’s a very sad time. And I think, um, I think these days, I’ve been okay, you know? Obviously, um, him getting sick again and having to go through this massive surgery was intense, um, but I also think that, like, you know, it’s– he went through that, and I went through depression worrying about him and him worrying about me, um, but that’s a normal reaction. It’s a normal reaction to be upset or depressed because your partner is going through something. There’s nothing wrong with that. And I had to remind myself that. It’s normal to be nervous or anxious before a job interview, it’s normal to be depressed because your partner’s in the hospital. Those are normal things. Um, but it’s– it’s funny, like, you talk to certain people and, I don’t know, you can pick up on their mannerisms, there’s certain things that they say where I’m like, “that person has been through what I’ve been through.” They know what it’s like to not be able to get out of bed, or not be able to eat a proper dinner because you’re so hungry but you just can’t even do it, you can’t even make ramen, you know? And then I talk to other people and, um, I– I think I’m like, have they never had these thoughts before? They’ve never– they’ve never experienced this. They’ve never had a day, like they’ve been sad, I’m sure these people, they lose a dog or something, but they’ve never had thoughts of like ending it all, like, that’s not normal to have those thoughts, you know? And I know other people have those thoughts, but it’s not– that’s not a thing that everybody has, and it took me a while to realize that, I’m like, “Wow, so not everybody thinks like that? Okay, uh, alright.” But, um, but, yeah, you know, I think being a teenager and feeling that way, you know, um, I’ve always been really interested in– I’ve always loved like, um, movies and books and things that had to do with psychology, like One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s NestI. Girl, Interrupted was always a favorite, um, anything like that, that had to do with mental health, they were just always my favorite. And I think the reason was that I always felt connected to those people, I always felt like, you know, they were the crazy ones but I’m like, I don’t know, they kind of make a little bit of sense to me, and I think that through my teens and stuff I felt so lost, and I didn’t know what to do that, um, I was searching for connection because I was like, “I feel like those people, I feel like that,” you know? And, um, and I couldn’t find what I was looking for, and so I was searching and searching and searching and, um, I think I just kind of got sick of searching, and I realized that the answer was inside me all along or you know. But hmmm. But I’ve, uh, I’ve come to a lot of, uh, to a lot of acceptance that, um, I am who I am, and I like who I am, and I have no regrets for anything, and I think about all the things that have happened to me in my childhood and– and teen years and things like that. I was wondering if things would be different if “this” you know? And then I think, I’m like, probably not. I have a feeling that I would have kind of just come around to the same spot no matter what. And, uh, I’m okay with that. I’m okay with who I am, and, um, I look in the mirror and it’s the same girl, a little bit older, but she’s the same girl and, um, I like what I see. And I think that’s a good thing. So. I don’t know what else I have (laughter).
1:50:00
I just have one more question for you.
Sure.
Whether it’s just you, or you and [Redacted], what– what do you have in your life, or what do you do, uh, that brings you joy, or brings you peace that you have in your life these days?
Sure! So, um, a couple literal things is– is like on Facebook I have the, um, you know, the [Redacted] recovery community. That’s a good way to feel grounded in talking to people. I’m also part of quite a few subReddits that I– I talk to people anonymously, and that helps me feel grounded and, um, feel connected with people. 'Cause sometimes, you know, I have friends and things in real life, but to feel a deeper connection with people, sometimes it’s easier when it’s anonymous. So that’s one way I find, give myself peace and clarity and can talk things out, um, uh without judgment, 'cause these people are anonymous. Um, you know, this past May, before his diagnosis, we had moved into a new apartment and we live in a little downtown area called Downton [Redacted] in Georgia and it, um, it’s, uh, it has just been awesome, you know? I, um, we love it here, and every night since his surgery we have gone, uh, for a walk. Which is incredible because, uh, for a while, he couldn’t, um, you know, they took a piece of his leg, and so I mean it was, it was pretty amazing that he went from, like, getting up out of the bed to use the restroom at the hospital to, um, walking down the hall, to now, you know, like the other night we went and walked around, they had like a little concert downtown, and so we ended up going there and walking around for like, I don’t know, an hour and a half? I mean stuff like that just, you know, being in his presence, being outside, and being together is just, uh, nice. So, I don’t really know what tomorrow’s gonna bring, but uh, that’s okay. I can’t even think about that right now. Mmm. But, uh, things that you know bring me joy is, uh, I don’t know, you know? I think it’s like when you live in– in chaos for so long, with the drug addiction and the cancer and this and that and just everything, and then you finally have just like a quiet, peaceful life where your only worry is, like, work and what’s for dinner, um. I think those things are things we don’t– I don’t know if we would take it for granted, but we don’t realize that we cherish them, um, until they’re not there, you know? And so to have that quiet, you know, to have the noise of a chaotic life gone is, uh, peaceful. Yeah. And, um, yeah. I don’t know. (Laughter)
[Redacted], thank you so much. I really deeply appreciate your time on this. I’m gonna go ahead and stop the recording.
Okay.