This Maine-based advocate wanted to get involved in reproductive justice work when she saw the increase in laws that created barriers to reproductive health care. She is on the board of the New River Abortion Access Fund in Virginia and believes that people should be able to make the best decisions for themselves and their families.
“I’m just really, really grateful to be involved in this work and have some options for myself at this particular time just with so much changing in a lot of ways, kind of getting worse with abortion access, but I, yeah, I just encourage people to learn about how abortion works, learn about what things exist out there, to get involved if they want to.”
ANNOTATIONS
Annotations coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Dan Swern
Conducted Remotely
June 28, 2023
Transcription by Chrissy Briskin
00:00
Today is Wednesday, June 28, it’s 3:03 pm Eastern Time, uh, my name is Dan Swern, uh, I’m here virtually from New Brunswick, uh, interviewing–
[Redacted]
[Redacted], thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me and for sharing your story. Uh, whenever you’re ready, just please feel free to start from the beginning.
Alright, uh, yeah so I was born in [Redacted], raised in [Redacted], um, [near] [Redacted], as many towns in [Redacted] are, and I, um, grew up there in like a very loving family, had a good childhood, and, you know, within the conversation of abortion, like, sexual wellness, sex ed has always been a part of my life. My, um, mother worked in IVF for a while, was a nurse for a long time, taught sex ed at our church and at my high school, uh, so that’s always kind of been something that I’ve been interested in and just a conversation that’s always been a part of my memory. Just something that we, that we talked about, um, woo, yeah, this is weird. I– after growing up there, um, I traveled a little farther south and went to college in [Redacted] where I studied Biology and Spanish. And then I went farther south for grad school at [Redacted] in Virginia. Um, where the pandemic happened and I got involved with the New River Abortion Access Fund, which is a new abortion fund, it got started in 2019, um, and, you know, with the pandemic shutting everything down, and doing grad school remotely from home, um, or virtually from home, I was looking for some way to get involved, a more tangible way. Um, things weren’t quite as dire then in the abortion space as they are right now, but they were, uh, again it was a topic I was interested in, it seemed like a really cool way to get involved and do something that felt meaningful at a time when my research did not always feel the most meaningful. I really liked it, but it wasn’t necessarily– didn’t feel like it was gonna make a direct impact in people’s lives. Um, so, got involved there, um, worked with the– as a case manager on the help line for a while, we were pretty small at first. There were like three of us kind of getting things going, uh, and probably getting about five calls a week. Um, pretty low key, um, it definitely grew a lot as people heard about us, as people realized there was that kind of support for abortion access in southwest Virginia. There’d already been similar funds in Charlottesville, the DC area, Richmond, but the founder wanted to make sure that there was something available for people in the more rural, Appalachian part of the state where that didn’t really exist before. Um, so I started with that, you know, I was doing grad school and that some weeks much more fun stuff than grad school stuff but I made it out so I think it all went okay. I eventually [Redacted] started managing the help line operations, um, and later joined the board. I'm currently the [Redacted], um, to hold that space until we hire someone more long term. Uh, I’m no longer in Virginia, I’m up in Maine now, but I’m still really connected with the fund, um, you know, remotely. Um, let’s see I kind of skipped ahead to the beginning part, another thing we talked about going back is a huge part of this story is my grandmother. Um, who was you know born and raised in [Redacted], um, she’s been– she passed away about a year ago now, but she was always a kind of wild, wild person. She denies being a hippie even though she was totally a hippie, um, but she would, you know, ride around on her motorcycle, was a mostly single mother to three girls, um, an artist, a potter, and just an all around badass. So, um, she was a huge part of my childhood, a huge influence for me, a huge inspiration, and a big part of why I’ve sort of always been interested in and passionate about, um, bodily autonomy, sexual wellness, and abortion. Um, it’s kind of like a running joke in my family that she would’ve aborted my mom if it had been legal. That was a couple of years before Roe v. Wade happened, so, um, for, you know, most of my life my mother would always donate to Planned Parenthood on Mother’s Day as sort of a little joke/thank you to my grandmother. Um, so I think, in that way, kind of abortion and a lack thereof, um, touched my life, and my mom and I have had conversations about that. We agree that we’d be the last two people that care if my grandmother aborted her, 'cause we wouldn’t know, we would not exist, um, so, you know, it worked out for my grandmother, but I’ve always been, you know, known that the lack of abortion access can affect people directly and take their lives in directions that maybe they did not want or anticipate. Again, she was lucky to have it turn out the way she did, and they’ve got a great relationship and all that. My mom’s mostly okay with not being a wanted child, um, but yeah, it just has touched close to home for a long time. It’s always been really important to me that people be able to make those decisions.
5:57
Um, my grandmother was also very open about, like, making sure that, you know, that I as a young woman was making my own decisions for my– myself. Um, particularly around independence, sexual wellness, um, she, unlike my other grandmother, always was very insistent that you live with someone and sleep with someone well before establishing a– like a marriage or a longer term relationship. She thought that was very important to test the waters before locking something down. Um, and yeah it was just always a really free-spirited and open-minded person that I try to draw on her a lot when I’m doing really anything. Um, but especially when I’m speaking to people on the help line, when I’m talking to people who maybe have different opinions than I do, I’m trying to channel her warmth and her curiosity, um, and her ability to kind of be like, “Well that doesn’t make sense,” if someone brings up something that– that doesn’t. Um, yeah, so that’s– that’s her. Um, let’s see. I guess going back to my current work in the abortion fund and how I ended up with Aid Access, or reaching out to Aid Access, obviously working in the abortion fund world in the reproductive justice, abortion access, world for the past three years and a bit, um, I’ve seen all the changes that are happening nationally with abortion access, um, very up close seeing the trends that we’re seeing in southwest Virginia, and Appalachia, and the southeast, and across the country, um, it’s been, you know, fascinating to see how it all works, how interconnected everything is where, you know, a ban in Texas will ripple out to the rest of the country how, you know, one clinic closing in Virginia or being at capacity in Virginia will affect everything else. Um, and, you know, during this time especially when there are conversations in the last couple months about, um, medication abortion, the abortion pill being limited, or restricted, um, it became really important to me to stock up, to get my own resources if I needed those pills in the future. If I had a friend, or loved one, or a stranger I happened to talk to needed that, um, just to, you know, have a stash of my own. Um, I knew through my work that Aid Access let you preorder before you were pregnant, you could just get the pills to store away in case you needed them in the future, um, so I went ahead and did that and ordered those, and they are tucked into a little shelf right now, um, all safe and sound in case I need it. Um, and I’ve been very lucky my whole life to have access to education, and to health care, and to friends and family who are supportive of whatever sexual decisions I make, um, but given what many lawmakers are trying to do with abortion access in the country, I think it’s, um, it felt important to me to have a little, yeah, something kind of tucked away in case I need it. Um, and yeah. Especially if I knew someone else who needed that as well, it would make me happy to be able to support them without as many hoops to jump through if things do change in the future with abortion pills. Um, let me see, and yeah we do refer people to Aid Access as well with the fund, so it’s a place that I know and trust and, um, encourage people– we are mostly speaking to people who are already pregnant and want to get an abortion, so I bring that up last, but I’ve definitely spread the word among friends, like people know that there A) is medication abortion, because many people, even people my age, who are– may potentially need an abortion one day don’t know that that is an option, that you can get pills and do your abortion at home.
10:19
Um, so educating people about that and letting them know where they can get the pills that they would need, um, feels like a really good step to just have– be able to reclaim a little bit what your abortion could look like if that’s needed in the future. Um, I’ve never personally had an abortion, I have close friends who have and, um, it’s, you know, everyone that I know that has had an abortion, it was a neutral to positive thing. Um, and I think that’s part of why I like to be involved with this and talk about it with people is that it’s such a normal thing. It’s such a common thing. Um, it’s not something that there should be a ton of stigma and stickiness about. Um, but it is, and there’s a lot of misinformation out there, and there’s a lot of just kind of silence around it where people don’t talk about what their options are, they don’t talk about the actual experience, people don’t necessarily know what it can look like from sort of start to finish, of realizing you want to get an abortion, to actually having it and not processing it afterwards if that needs to happen. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of been my relationship with– with abortion as a concept. Um, we talked about– talking a bit more about what abortion funds do. I would love to talk about that, so, um, the New River Fund is a newer fund, it opened in 2019. That’s where I’m kind of connected, um, but there are funds all across the country, some of which go back decades. One of the other funds in Virginia, the Blue Ridge Fund, started in the ‘80s, um, and has been helping people access abortion ever since. Um, the funds are– many of them work just to help people pay for the abortion appointment, unlike some kinds of other medical procedures, most insurance doesn’t cover abortion including Medicaid in many places. Um, you need to pay up front at the day of the appointment, you can’t generally set up a payment plan, and it is, you know, minimum going to be a couple hundred dollars up to some are in the $15,000-$20,000 range depending on where you are in the pregnancy and what other medical complications there may be, um, so abortion funds exist to help people pay for their appointments and get to their appointments. Um, part of the– part of the reason that the place that I work for, New River Abortion Access Fund, was named that way rather than the, you know, Virginia Choice Fund or something like that was that, um, we recognize that, you know, for many people the choice part is actually pretty straight forward, it’s pretty easy, they know pretty early on that they want to get an abortion, that they need to get an abortion, whether it’s just an inconvenient time, whether there’s a medical complication, whether there’s a fetal anomaly, um, but often it’s the step after that, it’s, “Okay, I’ve made the choice, now what do I need to do to get to the appointment, to have the abortion,” that’s the tricky part. So, um, funds try to exist to fill that gap between the choice and the access, um, and we do a lot of practical support to help get people the transportation they need, the escort they need to go with them, if they need someone to help them leave the clinic after the procedure, um, helping people pay for child care, for meals, for hotels, for whatever other, um, services or support they need around the appointment itself. So a lot of funds do some combination of funding and practical support, um, so that people aren’t needing to, you know, set aside a week of work to travel or drain their bank account or not pay rent in order to be able to pay for the appointment or pay for the hotel, um, and with the– with all the restrictions happening around the country, especially since Dobbs last June, um, people are having to travel a lot more, often delay care longer because there are waits at clinics that can see them, or they need to wait until they can get a day off to travel out of state to get where they need to go, um, so a lot of funds are definitely feeling the pressure right now to help people, um, find an appointment that works for them, get where they need to go, get care afterwards, travel home, um, so it’s a– it’s been an interesting couple years to be involved with abortion access. Um, it’s– yeah. I often say that there’s kind of a balance between like when people ask, “How’s it going, what do you think about abortion funds?” I try to walk the line between, yes, there are tons of resources out here for you, for your friend, for your loved ones, um, there are people out here doing the work to help you pay for and get to your abortion appointment, and also, you know, funds are stretched thin, it is, you know, the barriers and restrictions are doing what they were meant to do and making it harder for people to get their abortions that they need.
15:35
Um, and, you know, while there is an amazing network of people who are able to, um, help bridge that gap, we also shouldn’t sort of get complacent or get used to the level of difficulty that’s involved in getting an abortion, because it shouldn’t be that hard, it should be a very straightforward thing, it should be, you know, walk to your Urgent Care clinic in your town and just kind of get your abortion and go home. Um, but, you know, very much on purpose there are all these hoops that providers have to jump through, there are all these barriers for people needing to get care to get to a clinic, um, you know, the restrictions are working as intended, and I worry that people are gonna get used to the fact that you just, like, cannot get an abortion in many states, or that you need to travel hundreds of– hundreds to thousands of miles to get to a clinic that can see you. Um, I’m up in the northeast now, it’s a lot better a landscape in some ways, most states up here have, um, have clinics that can see you, have– everything’s closer together, so you’re not, like, driving across California, you can, kind of like, take a bus to another state if you need, um, but, yeah, I just– I think it’s been interesting to see over these last couple years people kind of reacting really big to some new piece of information, whether it’s SB8 in Texas, whether it’s Dobbs at the Supreme Court level, um, people having a really strong reaction, and then kind of going like, “Well alright, here’s the new normal, let’s proceed.” Um, some of it is kind of a self preservation thing, you just need to put your head down and keep going, um, but I– I worry with like with a lot of things that people will just sort of say it like, “This is how it is, we’re gonna have to keep moving,” rather than, you know, being very– understanding that these are concrete decisions that people are making to make the lives of pregnant people harder. Um, to make it harder to get an abortion, to, you know, these are things that– decisions that can be changed, these are things that we should keep fighting for, to not make it so hard for people to get care. This is just regular medical care, this is not something that should be an absolute, you know, moment in your life if you don’t, sort of, want it to be. Um, probably none of that made a lot of sense, but just kind of my soap box for now is, yeah, it is hard right now and it shouldn’t be, and it shouldn’t be normalized to be this hard. Um, so that’s all my– my spiel for the abortion funds. Um, plug for abortionfunds.org, that’s where the national network of abortion funds has all their information about the funds, and that network, which is most abortion funds in the country, are part of NNAF. People can find their local fund there and get more information on how to support. I highly recommend people looking there as well as INeedAnA– I think it’s .com, might be .org, which is where you can find clinics and abortion pill by mail providers, um, that are kind of screened and trustworthy, um, something else we’ve obviously seen in the past couple years is clinics and especially online pharmacies, um, taking advantage of the panic people are feeling, taking advantage of kind of the spot in the market for abortion pills, and either outright scamming people out of money or just not having the security that people deserve when they are, you know, ordering medication online, so recommend those two sites, I would love that to be included in the text of this so that people can– can have those resources. Um, let’s see.
19:50
Oh yeah, another thing we talked about before, um, this kind of– why I thought it would be cool to do this project specifically, um, I– I’m a scientist by trade and training, that’s kind of my– what I’ve gotten my degrees in and, um, yeah, something I’ve always been really interested in. And I think in talking about abortion there’s a very interesting play between data and stories, I’m not the first person to have said this but that’s something I think about a lot, where data is really important, it’s really important to know how many people are getting abortions, it’s important to know the, you know, ages and races and locations and parental status and all those things of people who are getting abortions, because honestly– because it makes– it’s clearer just how many people have abortions or know people who have had abortions’ um, but people’ you know, don’t respond to data the way they respond to stories. I think there’s a reason that articles about one particular person who had some kind of harrowing experience getting an abortion gets a lot more attention than the numbers of like one in four people who can get pregnant will have an abortion in their lifetime, and that doesn’t hit home in the same way as like reading a New York Times article about a mom in Texas who realized that she needed to travel 4,000 miles or something, which, you know, pulls at the heart strings more than a– just like a ratio on a piece of paper so. Um, I think that in talking about abortion, talking about reproductive justice, it’s really important to combine those two to have the data so that people, you know, people who are getting abortions know that they’re not alone, know that there are many, many people out there in similar situations, um, and then pairing those with stories that people can actually connect, whether it’s someone who doesn’t think abortion is right and maybe will be more convinced by hearing from a person who has experienced it, who has needed an abortion, who has gotten an abortion. Um, on the flip side for people who again are– have had an abortion, are getting an abortion and want to know that it’s okay and that they’re– there are others who have spoken out about it and who have shared their own experience with it so it’s easier for them. Um, the more we can talk about abortion the better, um, I think– I’ve noticed in training and in speaking with people who are not super familiar with talking about abortion that a lot of people talk around it, there’s a lot of euphemisms people use, um, even someone who sort of considers themself pro choice, or whatever language they would use, um, yeah, people just sort of talk around it say like, “Getting women’s healthcare,” things like that when abortion isn’t a dirty word and it really shouldn’t be but it’s, um, I think a lot of people are scared to kind of say it out loud. Um, in a way that maybe you’re not talking about like I don’t know– some kind of other medical procedure. Um, so I think the more that we can bring it to, like, the better, the more people can share their experiences, the better if it is safe for them to do so, um, it’s just easier for people to connect and understand that this is a reality in many, many, many people’s lives and therefore shouldn’t be restricted as much as it is. Um, yeah. That’s my soap box. I’m kinda reaching the end of one wild tendril, is there something in particular you’d like me to talk about?
Um, [Redacted], do you want to talk a little bit about the work you’re doing up in Maine?
24:46
Sure. Um, yeah so I’m up here now, my partner got a job teaching, and I decided that I also wanted to be up in Northern New England, close to the family, um, and I’m currently involved with the– working for a [Redacted] non-profit. Um, based near the capital, and it’s something I never particularly considered to be like the career path for me, but I think something that I really appreciated about working in my primary job being the abortion fund was the connections with people and networking, that’s like such a cold word, but, you know, getting to know people around Virginia and around the country who were really passionate about abortion access and, um, reproductive justice and healthcare and all of that. Um, and I felt like in Virginia I was, you know, the pandemic happened, it was hard to do a ton of in person networking while I was there for the– I lived there for three years, um, but I felt like just as I was– I was preparing to leave I was starting to be able to meet people and move from virtual conversations, hearing about what people were doing to in person, so coming up to Maine, um, I really wanted to find something that would let me get a sense of what’s going on in my community, in the state, um. I think Maine’s similar to where I was in Virginia, there’s a lot of rural areas, there’s a lot of towns that are doing really important work on a very small scale, um, and so my– in my current role, I basically support a bunch of projects that are working with, um, towns and organizations and the university system to, um, do [Redacted] projects, anything from, you know, like, seafood economy projects, to housing, to health and prosperity, to, um, adult education, all those kinds of things, so I think that that’s, again, it’s not something I’ve got formal training in, I never took [Redacted] class, so maybe I should read up on that, but, um, I think the ability to work somewhere where it’s all about relationships and connections, and understanding what the need is in a particular area, and who needs to be at the table to address that need, um, and being able to help facilitate those conversations, that was something that I, you know, did a lot of while the intake coordinator at New River and something I’ve been really enjoying since I’ve been up here. Um, to be completely honest, too, it’s also nice to have a job that feels a little bit lower stakes. I think working for the fund– I still work for the fund, I’m the interim executive director, but it’s not my sort of full time thing in the way that it was while I was in Virginia where it was, really, most of my day was spent thinking about the fund. Um, and it’s kind of nice to be in a job now where, like, if I mess something up, then like a file gets put in the wrong place, or a meeting link doesn’t work, or I guess on a higher scale a grant doesn’t get in on time or something like that, whereas in my old position a mistake could mean that, like, someone does not get to their appointment and maybe does not– is not able to have their abortion. The stakes sometimes felt very, very high, sometimes were very, very high, um, while working on the help line. Um, so I wouldn’t say I was burned out by the end of those couple years doing that, but there were times when it felt close. Um, and I think that’s a common feeling around a lot of the, um, abortion access world. People just knowing the work is so important, knowing that they can do a lot to, you know, that they personally can have the– can be the deciding factor sometimes between like whether someone gets to their appointment or not, and that can be a very empowering feeling and it can also be very stressful to feel that, you know, there’s no actual support system to help someone get, like, no, I guess, state or federal or larger scale support system to get someone the care they need. Um, a lot of bigger systems have failed people, so it ends up being like three volunteers working late into the night to get someone a bus ticket or something. So, um, yeah. I’m really enjoying the work that I do and I’m glad that I’m still connected to the abortion world, especially the Virginia abortion access community, 'cause it’s just a group of amazing people, um, but it’s– I’m hoping that eventually in the future, we are in a place where it doesn’t feel sometimes that it’s like up to a couple individual people to support people having abortions, getting them to their appointment, um, in my perfect ideal world, there would be much easier access. It wouldn’t be such an ordeal sometimes to get people care, for people to, yeah, need to go through, I think I said jump through hoops four times now, but jump through hoops, pay a lot of money, do a lot of puzzle pieces together to get to an appointment. Um, so, yeah, currently– and also trying to sort of see what’s going on with abortion access in Maine and northern New England region, um, I know that there’s yeah, there’s some cool stuff going on. There is a fund up here that I started donating to, I haven’t gotten sort of in touch with them more than that. Um, but the Vermont fund is doing cool things, I know someone at the fund in New Hampshire who is awesome and is doing some really great work.
31:11
Um, it’s kind of cool to see what the needs are in different regions, the different states, and what organizations are coming together to fill those needs and, like, kind of what they’re identifying as the priorities, um, in any given area. So, um, who knows if I will be to fully get my current organization to, like, connect with an abortion fund, that may not happen just based on, kind of, our goals, um, but I think it’s definitely something I’m going to be whatever kind of career I end up in, um, it’s something I want to make sure that I keep in touch with, um, staying in the know about what’s going on with access and with organizations and, you know, um, yeah whether it’s non profits or like medical support for people’s reproductive health, um, yeah. I think that’s that. Maine’s also interesting 'cause it’s a pretty old state overall, I think we’re the oldest average population in the country, so there’s just like, at least where I am, there’s just a lot fewer younger people, which is an interesting demographic difference from Virginia, just fewer people of child-bearing age in Maine than in pretty much any other state, but the need is here, the need is really everywhere, anywhere that there are people who can get pregnant, there are people who, you know, need or want abortions, so, um, I’m curious to see kind of what the challenges are in Maine and what– how I can get plugged in, and eventually if and when I’ve got time to do that, um, let’s see. (Clears throat). Yeah, I think that there has been a wide ranging list of things I talked about, I’m trying to think if there’s anything I’ve kind of left out and should– I guess one, this is sort of a detached thought, but something I’ve been fascinated by with, um, maybe I shouldn’t have been surprised, but I have been working for the fund and just in speaking with people around, um, in my community is just the– the narrative around abortion right now is that it’s really dominated by anti-abortion groups and by, you know, a lot of the laws, there are some cool laws happening in some places, but a lot of laws are on the side of restriction and on the side of taking away access for people, making it harder for people to get abortions. Um, but, you know, even when I was out doing events with my like abortion fund shirt on, um, in the like more conservative areas, um, in Virginia, there’s like the response has overwhelmingly been positive, and I think I’ve always been pleasantly surprised pretty much anywhere I go wherever I’m talking about abortion, pretty much everyone is– even if they don’t fully understand the vast majority of people are on– somewhere on the scale of like absolutely there should be abortion everywhere, super, super easy to like, yeah, that seems like a thing people should have access to. Very few people that I’ve talked to actually think that no one should have access or that it should be really, really hard.
36:12
Um, I think that one kind of silver lining of how much abortion has been in the news and being voted on and having laws passed about it is that it’s kind of forcing the conversation for people to think about it– it’s– it’s coming up more, people are learning more about who gets abortions, why they get abortions, how hard it is to get abortions, um, and yeah, I’ve had conversations especially with older people who just never, who I didn’t know where they kind of landed on how they felt about abortion, but pretty much everyone’s been supportive of it, been really horrified by the bans and restrictions going into place. Um, and many people who, you know, had abortions a while ago, you know, even pre Roe v. Wade, um, are kind of coming out of the woodwork to tell their stories, which I’m, you know, glad and grateful for people who do that and feel safe to do that. Um, and I think this has been an– I think some people kind of got lulled into a false sense of security with Roe v. Wade being on the books of like, “Thank goodness, that era of not being able to get abortions easily is over, like it’s protected now,” um, and now that that’s gone away, I think it’s been a wake up call for a lot of people that it shouldn’t be so taboo, it should be something we talk about. People are learning too about how difficult abortions– abortion was to access even when technically there were federal protections, um, I think that the– yeah, I wish that there didn’t have to be such a dramatic restriction on abortion for people to talk about it, um, but I am glad in some way that a lot of people are bringing it up and are thinking about it in ways that they maybe hadn’t before. Um, and obviously abortion is just one little corner of reproductive justice, of healthcare, of sexual wellness. Like it, um, it’s gotten a lot of people thinking about the ways that their access to healthcare, their personal information, their personal choices about all sorts of things are– are or could be impacted by, you know, the federal or state government, depending on where they live, and I think, um, for a lot of people there– this has been a– yeah, they’re realizing kind of how quickly things can change and how, um, hopefully how important it is to speak up both before restrictions happen, and not kind of assume that they can’t because things have been that way for, in the case of Roe, like fifty years.
39:33
Um, yeah, that’s just another thing on my mind. I think that it– yeah, I hope that in the future, we don’t need such a giant shockwave in order to– to walk back like, “Wait, shoot, no, these are really harsh restrictions that actually are a bad idea,” and that we can realize that beforehand, but, um, yeah. Again, small silver lining of people thinking about, talking about, getting involved with in a way that they haven’t before, the conversation about bodily autonomy and about reproductive health and justice, um, yeah.
[Redacted], I did want to ask, you had mentioned briefly, um, burn out you experienced on the hotline. Can you talk a little bit about what it means to be a hotline volunteer, the work that you do, and what– what you’re– what you’re experiencing that can eventually lead to burn out?
For sure. Um, yeah, so the fund that I worked for, um, and many others have volunteer case managers where, yeah, people sign up to do a shift to respond to calls that come in on the helpline. Um, and typically what that looks like is, you know, yeah, calling someone back, talking through what their financial needs are, what their practical support needs are, um, and then connecting them with resources, you know, helping pay for the appointment, or doing whatever transportation logistics they need. Um, I think some of the burn out issues are just the volume, it’s sort of a, you know, I think I mentioned the funds used to get like five calls a week when we were first– first getting going. Now we regularly, like Monday morning we’ll turn the helpline on and within a couple hours have like thirty or forty calls. Um, so just kind of the– the wave and needing to kind of have that conversation over and over and over, and making sure that you’re keeping all the balls in the air for, like, waiting to hear back on the rest of the funding for this person and, you know, waiting on the address to schedule a cab for this person, and, you know, just kind of making sure, keeping track of everything is– is one part. Um, and then there’s also, there can definitely be kind of an emotional component, some of it, you know, I’d say the majority of the calls that I’ve been on in my time with the fund are pretty straight forward, it’s just, you know, talking to someone, “What do you need, great, we can help with that. Cool, have a good day.” But occasionally there are ones that, you know, either the person is really struggling with the decision and kind of need some support, it becomes clear early on in the conversation that just kind of want to talk for a while, um, that’s, you know, we try to encourage people to be supportive, provide whatever help you feel comfortable doing, and also referring them to a more well-trained, a couple helplines that exist for talking through your feelings around abortion. There’s, um, I know Exhale is a great one, there’s a place called All Options, um, and a sort of faith-based one called Faith Allowed. Um, but yeah, part of your job as a case manager can also be to just kind of support people, be a listening ear, um, occasionally you can be the first person that they’ve told about it, the first time that they’ve said the word abortion to a person, um, or it can become clear that they’re coming from a situation where their family or friends either don’t know or know and are not supportive, um, and I think it can be, yeah, it can be kind of a emotionally tiring experience just to have those conversations often. Um, especially when it becomes clear that like, “Oh great, this is a person who a couple months ago could have just gone to the major city nearby and gotten their abortion and been done, and now instead they need to like get on a plane to go to the closest clinic that can see them.” Sometimes, sometimes it can be possible to compartmentalize like, “Okay here are the restrictions we’re looking at, here are the clinics you can go to,” and then there are times when you’re like, “and here’s a person, here’s the lived experience of these restrictions that are written in a very kind of impersonal way and have very personal consequences.” So that can be a lot. Um, another thing funds deal with is just not, you know, running out of funding. We’ve– our budget has grown a lot because of the financial support of donors and grants and things, and that’s been amazing, but, um, there are sometimes people who we just can’t support, or there are people with very expensive appointments, um, that it takes the collaboration of like dozens of funds around the country to get them paid for, um, or often there are issues with– with, again, the travel, practical support, where it kind of feels like a ticking clock, and there’s a lot of pieces to get them childcare, and a ride to the airport, and a flight and a hotel, and all those things together, um, can just be really draining to try to keep that going, especially when there are like five of those cases in one week.
45:32
Um, and then another thing that bums me out too is we– it’s not uncommon for our fund, and for many other funds, to get scammers, or to get people who are, you know, it can be hard to tell but someone who probably needs the money but is not going to be using it for an abortion, or someone who’s, like, targeting the fund purposefully to waste our time to try to get information about our internal process and that kind of thing. Um, and those just tend to be– they’re frustrating, they can be, you know, especially when they’re the ones that are clearly someone an anti-abortion person targeting an abortion fund, um, it’s, yeah, frustrating that someone is trying to waste the time and resources of a fund that’s trying just to exist to support people. Um, and those can, you know, take time and energy to kind of work through, figure out, yeah, how to– when to stop contacting people, how to decide whether or not someone is truly asking for like a legit reason, um, that can be difficult, and often those people very much on purpose, um, use some of the kind of circumstances that actual callers will– will call with of domestic violence, or needing to travel really far, or weird limits on communication that make it very difficult to contact them for various reasons, and it can be challenging when you’re dealing with that. You’re like, “Okay, is this a person who is in crisis and really needs the support, or is this someone who knows exactly how to sound like they’re in crisis and need help in order to drain the time and resources away from funds?” Um, so that can be all of those together, I think, kind of contribute to– to the burn out feeling for a lot of people, um, at least I state this for myself and, you know, we’ve been pretty luck in Virginia so far, Virginia’s a receiving state, people are coming to Virginia from all over. A lot of the clinics in Virginia are– are slammed with appointments, um, we’ve been very lucky that, like, the conversation so far has not had to be, “Sorry you need to leave Virginia.” Like it’s– we’re not operating around some of the restrictions that, like, some of the Texas funds were where they– several of them had to shut down or had to really reconsider, like, what is it safe for our callers and for our volunteers and staff to say, what can we say, what can’t we say, what support can we provide, what support can’t we provide, um, so far we’ve been pretty lucky to not have to deal with– with a lot of that but, um, I think that can contribute in states with restrictions too, just kind of living in that every day hearing all the need in the community and just knowing that, like, you can’t legally support a lot of people who need the help. Um, so yeah, I think that’s where a lot of the burn out comes from. Um, just seeing the results of the restrictions working as intended to make it hard for people to get care. Um, but I think then that’s also where the community becomes really important, that’s where it can be so nice just to like have your little group message where you can share an experience with other people doing similar work and just say like, “Hey guys, really rough day, here’s what happened,” and people can provide resources, provide support or just, even just a, “Wow that sucks, hope you’re okay,” kind of message. So it is an amazing community within abortion funds, um, we’re all doing our best to kind of look out for one another, um, both, you know, sharing resources and information to support callers and resources, and information to support other staff and volunteers who are seeing similar things, having similar conversations every day.
49:52
Um, yeah. And I think that’s also something that is built in to a lot of like I think I mentioned NNAF earlier, the National Network of Abortion Funds, um, they do a lot of the coordinating of funds across the country, they provide a lot of information and, um, facilitate workshops and conversations and things, and it’s very important to them to have meetings, some meetings that are just for like, “We don’t have any agenda, come and chat, come and be in community with people who are doing similar work,” or more targeted ones like, “here is some legal resources that your fund may benefit from,” um, and just having, yeah having that structure and that network has been really huge for me as an individual, for the fund as an organization, um, to not kind of have to reinvent the wheel and– and do things ourselves, most questions that we have are– someone else has experienced it before, someone else has been able to work around that. So, um, yeah, it’s all about– it’s all about the community to help people kind of stay afloat, um, yeah. I’m very impressed there are some people who– I know a person who’s been doing this for four decades and she, I’m sure, has dealt with burn out and has dealt with the more difficult times, but, you know, there are those couple of leader who have just, like, been here for a very long time who, like, seem to be inexhaustible. I think probably their secret is they’ve just found a really good way to shut down when they have time to do that and actually, you know, rest and reset but, um, yeah, it’s kind of a– it’s always a balance of making time for yourself and also understanding that like this is very important work to be done, and sometimes it does actually make sense to just, like, stay up that extra half hour, make sure someone is all good and that, have that be– be all set. So, um, yeah. That’s the burn out. Um, and to connect it back to medication abortion too, that’s another place where, um, the Telehealth options that have been expanding in the past couple, I’m sure years, but a lot since Dobbs, um, it’s really cool when people– when it makes sense for someone that’s what they want to do, to be able to, you know, get pills delivered and be able to have their abortion, like, with partners or friends or parents, I was going to say partners, parents too I guess, pets around them, in their home, in their community, um, I think that that’s– that can be a really good place and a really good experience for some people, so that they don’t have to kind of journey out into the what can be a very complicated and confusing world of just, like, getting transportation, and making an appointment, and being in a place that you’re not familiar with potentially. So, yeah, all that community both on the abortion access provider support side and in, um, for people getting abortions so, yeah. I’ve covered most of the stuff in the notes, is there–
Yeah, [Redacted], I was wondering if you might be willing to go back to share a bit about your parents growing up in [Redacted], um, what– just what that experience was, like, what kind– what did your days look like, what kind of activity did you get into, trouble or otherwise, education, those kids of things?
54:55
Yeah, um, so I actually grew up on a high school campus, my parents both worked at a private school and I was a campus kid or a fact brat people call them too. Um, so I grew up with a lot of it was sort of a community of people, families living on campus, there were a lot of kids, I was one of the kind of in the middle, but one of the older kids before like a big boom of– of younger kids, so a lot of babysitting, a lot of, you know, wandering around town with, you know, groups of the kids that I would hang out with, um, so yeah, I did that. I do feel like, I think my– my hometown is very important to me, [Redacted], which is like a, um, lot of historical landmarks and [Redacted] stuff, it’s like, it’s that, but I spent a lot of time just, um, in town. A lot of my– my memories are being outside, it’s just a beautiful place with rivers and trails and, um, some, just a lot of nice stuff to do outside, um, I, um, started running in middle school, I joined the little cross country team, 'cause my friends were doing that and I hated it, but I stuck with it and got better and started really liking it, so, um, running has been very important to me for, um, a long time now. Um, and I spent a lot of time in, you know, high school running around and exploring either by myself or with– with some friends, um, I– let’s see, because my parents were on an academic schedule, we would in the summers be able to, you know, travel a bit, visit family, um, we did some long road trips to kind of see the country, um, which was that was really cool, and I was a– I’m sure it was a nightmare for them to be in a mini van for like eighteen hours with me and my brother but I remember it mostly being fun. (Laughter) So that’s good. Um, we, yeah, I wasn’t a particularly rebellious kid, so I was pretty, pretty boring to raise, but, um, yeah I spent a lot of time with friends, um, hanging around downtown, go for a little adventures in the woods, um, we would like paddle on the river sometimes to explore that way, um, yeah, I’m trying to think. Yeah I actually lived in the same physical house as my best friend for a while, it was like a duplex kind of thing, her parents also worked on campus and we would like, we had little mailboxes through the door that connected the houses, and I would like put a little note in the mailbox, like, close the door and she would hear that and run down and see the note and write back. Um, so yeah being on campus was kind of fun 'cause it was just a little, like, commune of kids with mostly free rein of– especially in the summer when there weren’t students around, we would just like adventure, I remember one time we set out, it wasn’t Guitar He– Rock Band I think is the other one? We set up Rock Band in the theater on the giant screen and played that. It was my friend and her older brother, it was a good time. Yeah, I had a very nice childhood, it was fun. Um, I think another– I don’t know if you want me to keep bringing it back to abortion, but all roads lead to abortion in some way. Um, growing up I also went to a Unitarian Universalist Church which is, um, I think it’s a pretty [regional] religion, definitely my church was one of the– the older ones of that in the country, but one of the things some people know about UU is that we’ve got a program called OWL, Our Whole Lives, which is a sex ed program for eighth graders, um, so growing up going to church, I’m not particularly religious, it wasn’t a particularly religious church, it was more about the community, um, but, you know, I went there my whole life, a lot of the programs that they did were about trying to expose people to, expose kids to a wide range of perspectives and beliefs, um, in seventh grade we had a program where we went to different faith communities’ services, or whatever kind of thing it was, um, we went to like a mega church, we went to a Buddhist gathering, we went to, I think we had someone come in and talk about being in a cult at one point, I don’t really know what they were doing, but I was pretty involved there, and we went there most weeks, um, and then in eighth grade did OWL, which was, um, it’s a pretty intense sex ed program, it’s better than any other one that I’ve done in school for sure.
1:00:29
Um, but yeah we had, like, condom races, like, I think my team won, you had to put a little condom on this, like, wooden dick. Um, there was the infamous day of the slides where they would, like, build this up for a while, and near the end of the program you would watch the slides and it was basically just like drawings of people with various, like, body types and in– I remember there was one, it was like they were clearly in a field but they are both completely naked except their shoes are on for some reason, but just like people having sex in all sorts of ways and all, you know, genders and body types and everything, and of course it blew our little eighth grade minds, 'cause we were like, “Whoa you can see that?” But, um, I’m sure that contributed to kind of what I’ve done in my life, too, just like being in a religious community that was that open about sex and saying like, “Yeah, this is just something that most people do, like let’s learn about it and let’s answer your questions about it so you don’t maybe go through life without those answers, without that information, or kind of try to find those answers in less reliable places like your ninth grade friend, or something like that.” Um, so yeah, I guess that that church was probably a big part of my– my growing up as well. Um, I, you know, since going to college I kind of stopped doing any sort of religious things, but if I were to go back I’d probably find a UU church because, yeah, I really appreciate that that was something they valued and there wasn’t this weird, you know, thoughts and attitudes about sex, especially sex ed for children and younger people everywhere, but I think that that community did a pretty good job of providing like, you know, treating us like we could handle information, which was always nice. A lot of kids aren’t treated that way. Um, and, you know, just to have sex and relationships talked about in a very open way of, like, yeah you’re going to deal with this kind of stuff when you grow up so like let’s talk about consent, let’s talk about what it looks like to be in a healthy relationship, let’s learn how a dental dam works, just that stuff was, um, yeah it was just stuff that you talked about, and it’s been interesting to, you know, meet friends and share that experience with people who went to not like that churches that had sex ed in their schools that were like, “Don’t do it or you will die.” Um, yeah, it’s a very different way to be exposed to that information, um, and I’m very grateful that that was the way that I learned about it, um, and I think that that has contributed to how I’ve thought about– about sex, about abortion, about everything since then. Um, and I think that’s something I would love to be involved with is, while I think abortion funds are awesome and people are– even if sex ed was perfect and everyone knew everything there was to know, people would still get abortions, like, unintended pregnancy or pregnancy that is not sustainable to carry to term for whatever reason, like, that’s going to happen not matter what, that happens with people who get, people who like for everything kind of went right for until something they get abortions, people who know exactly how sex works have abortions so, um, yeah. Good sex ed is not going to replace abortion, but I think that good sex ed talking about people’s options and how pregnancy works and all that at a younger age is really great and would be part of a larger picture of reproductive justice of sexual health and wellness that is very far from where we are right now, but something that I can dream about. Um, yeah. Maybe I’ll go back and teach OWL one day at some church, that’d be kind of fun. (Laughter). I’m sure there’s other stuff about my childhood that, like, made me who I am today, but, um, yeah, I don’t know, I was very lucky to be raised in a nice place with a lot of– lotta kids around and good people so–
1:05:41
What– what led you down the education path that you became interested in, as a scientist?
Mmm, um, like in terms of sort of the– not the research research, but like the sharing and talking about–
I mean you can start with what brought you to research and then past that also.
Cool, um, yeah so I think that I’ve always been into science. My– both my parents have, sort of have backgrounds in [Redacted] and research of various types. Um, and I’ve always that that was really something both interested in it and especially interested in kind of the natural world and studying that, um, I worked on a farm for a couple summer growing up too, and that was really cool just to be, to like see the whole process of like planting seeds and then harvesting food, um, so yeah, in my education in college and grad school I learned more about [Redacted] and more about, um, I was doing [Redacted] and climate change and all that kind of stuff, but um, I wanted to, I always wanted to go be on just like producing information or, you know, writing down information to making sure that it got into the hands of people who could actually do something about it. Um, in grad school I was working on a project about like, you know, at the simplest level it was like how can we make [Redacted], um, but on the execution side, I really wanted to make sure that the materials I was producing were going to be useful to people and not just kind of stay in the academia bubble, but actually, you know, be in a format that like a [Redacted] could use and actually make something of and like do something with rather than being in very technical language that would just end up in one paper that maybe like two people would read ever, um, academia, you know, love people who do that, those sorts of papers, but I wanted mine to be a little bit more accessible hopefully. So throughout that experience, you know, grad school and doing that research, I tried to make sure that I was gathering data that would actually be relevant to the people who were gonna use it and then produce a document that would be that was like directed [Redacted] towards people who would be using that information to inform decisions that would actually potentially affect [Redacted] in a particular area. Um, so yeah that was kind of how I– how I thought about my research, um, I also TA’d in grad school and did a bit of teaching for college kids which was, I enjoyed that, I'm not sure I will be a teacher in the future, but maybe, who knows. I had to like lecture for one giant lecture at one point and I was terrified the entire time, so probably won’t be like an actual college professor ever, but, um, but yeah, I think I really enjoy whatever the topic is moving from generating the information to actually getting it into the hands of people who are gonna use it. Um, and I think that’s kind of the responsibility of anyone who’s doing some kind of research or doing some kind of data collection. There’s something to be said for, like, studying things or collecting data for the sake of studying things or collecting data, but at the end of the day that’s not actually getting somewhere, um, I don’t find it quite as useful and quite as interesting to be involved with. I’d rather be able to kind of bounce those ideas off people who have hands-on research or hands-on experience, um, rather than just kind of like letting it sit in my head and then getting it out into a format that is kind of static and doesn’t really get out and make contact with the real world.
1:10:18
Um, so yeah, I think in my current job I’m doing, it is a lot of kind of relationship building, um, and the organization I work for does a lot of data collection, but, um, the goal is always to collect data so that people can make decisions that will improve people’s lives hopefully. Um, and that’s part of what drew me to that even though, again, [Redacted]’s not necessarily what I have done in the past, what I– my comfort zone, but, um, I think data for good can be, um, can be important, or data that is shared and that is very transparent, um, you know, it is very important to have numbers that people can agree upon when making decisions. Um, I think, you know, like I said before, stories are very powerful and they can also be easy to assume that like the last story is representative of an entire problem or area, um, so being able to have data paired with stories, whether it’s research, scientific research, whether it’s [Redacted], whether it’s abortion access, whatever, um, yeah, I think that’s a powerful combination, and I– wherever I end up, whether I end up back kind of in the reproductive justice world, whether I go back to more concrete science, whether I stay in the zone that I’m in right now, um, I’m hoping to kind of hit that sweet spot of, like, helping with data and helping actually get people connected to it so that they can do something meaningful with it. Um, yeah, I’m not– not super comfortable end of that spectrum of like pure research or pure storytelling, um, I like the middle zone.
[Redacted], would you be willing to share a bit about your own family planning, your own, um, experiences with contraception, things like that?
Sure, yeah, um, so let’s see, I have an experience with two contraceptive options. I’ve used– I used the pill for a while, it was fine, I didn’t have any particularly huge reactions to it, I know some people really don’t respond well to it, it was annoying to take it every day, but fine. Um, I started that– that was the summer after high school, um, and then sophomore year of college I think, I got a hormonal IUD for the first time, which I’ve had ever since. Um, and still do right now. Not the same one, I got it replaced at least once, um, but yeah, I love my IUD, I highly recommend it to people, you don’t have to think about it except every seven years when it’s really painful for like forty five seconds when they change it out. Um, but yeah I’ve always, you know, been for my full sexually active life, I’ve been on some form of hormonal contraceptives, um, also, you know, using condoms and it’s important to double up as I learned in church sex ed. Um, but yeah so that’s, you know, that’s the contraceptive options I’ve used, um, yeah all my partners have been cis men, so there’s always been the potential threat of pregnancy, um, but I’ve again never actually had a really big scare, um, I don’t think I plan to have kids, at this point in my life, I am in no rush to have kids.
1:14:58
Either, you know, through my own body or through adoption or fostering or whatever other, um, methods there are out there, um, my, you know, current partner and I are on the same page right now about that, of just like probably not, but hoping our siblings do so we can be like an aunt and uncle to kids. Um, I just don’t know if I could handle the sleep deprivation, I think that would probably kill me, um, but yeah, so that’s kind of been how I’ve done my own contraceptive stuff, I’ve always been, um, one of my points of pride is that, you know, because they know that I work in abortion access, and because they know that I went to the weird church with the sex ed, a lot of my– and they know that my mom was their sex ed teacher, a lot of my friends in, you know, high school and college would– would ask me about, you know, my experience with contraceptives, or ask if they were debating whether or not to go on a particular one. A lot of people kind of came to me and was like, “Oh you probably know how this thing works, or how this feels,” um, so it’s kind of fun to be a resource for that when people ask. Um, but yeah and I’ve always been, you know, with the partners I’ve been with, um, I’ve been open about that, they’ve all been very understanding about being on the same page about contraceptives. Um, there’s definitely, depending on what age I was and who the particular person was, people have different levels of kind of squeamishness talking about, like, what IUD insertion entails or, like, you know, using condoms or whatever, but that’s kind of a requirement for me if I’m gonna be with someone that they are not gonna be super weird about that 'cause, like, it’s a reality, like, you know, I’m gonna be taking the pill every day at the same time, or I’m gonna be, you know, making sure my strings are still there for the IUD or whatever, like, that’s just part of life. Um, I know I mentioned last time but, you know, my current partner is awesome about that. He’s, you know, whether he would have been comfortable with this before, or I’ve kind of like trained it into him, who knows, but, um, we’re very comfortable talking about contraceptive options, which is great, and he’s got a shirt that I originally got that was too big for me, but fits him great that says, “Everyone loves someone who had an abortion,” it’s a black T–shirt with, like, glittery silver letters and he’ll wear it, he wore it to the post office one day in our, like, little Maine town, and people were giving him looks that he’s this, like, kind of, bearded, six-foot tall dude in the sparkly abortion shirt, and it made me very happy, so, um, I love, you know, a sex ed ally kind of person. Um, but yeah that’s kind of my– what I’ve done with contraceptives, and now a lot of my friends have IUDs, and I think that’s a pretty– I think it’s getting more common, which is again, great if that works for you. So localized, it’s not as– the pill can be a lot of hormones to your entire body, um, which doesn’t always work for people, especially if they’ve got, like, migraines or something like that, um, yeah. I just kind of love the ease of that and I love that I don’t have to think about it very much. Um, it does make it a little tricky, this whole conversation is about, is sort of came from me doing Aid Access, getting the pills, um, one potential issue with IUDs is, if you do get pregnant with an IUD, it’s likely to be an ectopic pregnancy, um, and medication abortion doesn’t work for ectopic pregnancies, um, or if I were to get a non-ectopic, like, uterine pregnancy with an IUD, that also– the pills wouldn’t work, so I would need to get the IUD removed in order to, um, and at that point I would probably need to get the abortion in house 'cause they probably wouldn’t like to take an IUD while knowing that there’s a pregnancy. If I know where I’m going, and, you know, just helping out, but, um, yeah, I’m very pro-people exploring their options with contraception. I do, you know, I know that there are people who don’t use contraceptives for various reasons, um, I respect people’s choices to do what they want to do with that, um, and I try to, you know, educate people when they ask for it, or when the opportunity comes up just to let people know how many options are out there, um, to, you know, reassure them that yeah it hurts a lot to get an IUD to put in, but then it’s fine, those kinds of things. Um, I think that, yeah, there’s a lot of anything from misunderstandings to misinformation about contraceptives, um, and yeah, maybe one day there will be kind of a better option for people that doesn’t have a ton of side effects, but, um, but I think many people can find something that works for them, I found what works for me, and I’m planning to stick with it for a while.
1:20:45
Hopefully, there will not be restrictions on IUDs, I know that’s kind of come up in the periphery of some of these conversations of, like, banning any kind of hormonal birth control, but knock on wood that’s not coming down the pike too quickly. Um, yeah. I do think that, I mean it’ something I’ve– I have a friend who’s in med school right now in the south and has talked about conversations with some of her friends who are, you know, in med school know, sort of the science behind how pregnancy works, um, and– and are not on birth control, like I think that there are some kind of regional and cultural things that happen too, but I think my, I don’t know, I’ve never been someone who’s been like, “Oh yeah, if I get pregnant at some point, I’ll just roll with it,” like I think it’s been important to me to have a plan to not get pregnant, or to be able to end a pregnancy if I don’t want it, or just kind of be in a place where I’m ready to handle a pregnancy, um, if I ever get to that place I’ll probably get to that place mentally. I’ll sort of, you know, cross that bridge when it comes to it, but, um, yeah, I know that some people sort of more of a thing where they’re– if they get pregnant that’s what happens and they’re gonna move forward with it, and all power to them but that’s not really how I’ve been, how my brain works, and how I’ve kind of been thinking about pregnancy and kids. Um, growing up based on my education and just how I’m wired, um, but yeah. I am pleased with my contraceptive options and choices so far. I’m gonna lock my cat up real quick she’s scratching the door.
[Redacted], I was wondering if there was anything that I didn’t ask or you didn’t talk about that you think you want to make sure gets included in this narrative.
Mmmm. I feel like I’ve talked about all sorts of things, some of which were probably very off topic, but, um, let me see. I don’t think so I guess, yeah, I guess my take away is just I would love people to know what options exist for them if they, you know, if they ever do want or need an abortion, yeah it’s scary out there, but like there are people are always going to get abortions, whether or not it’s legal, whether or not it’s easy, people have been getting abortions since they’ve been getting pregnant so, um, that’s kind of the big thing I want to take away, and I’m just really, really grateful to be involved in this work, and have some options for myself at this particular time just with so much changing in a lot of ways, kind of getting worse with abortion access but I, yeah, I just encourage people to learn about how abortion works, learn about what things exist out there, to get involved if they want to, whether that’s donating three dollars a month to their local fund, or signing up to be a case manager or a clinic escort, or just talking to friends and family about abortion, um, I think that it, yeah, it should just be something that gets talked about more, and I’m grateful for this opportunity too to just kind of share another story, hopefully with a lot of other people with a lot of different experiences, um, just yeah, 'cause abortion is a fact of life, it’s very common, it’s fine. And, um, yeah, I’m just glad to have the chance to ramble about abortion and other things.
[Redacted], thank you.
Thank you.