Deborah Morgan has been a resident of Highland Park for over thirty-seven years and currently serves as the secretary for the New Brunswick Area branch of the NAACP. She narrates growing up in Harlem during a time of great social change, and talks about the many nonprofit and social advocacy groups of which she has been involved. She discusses the changes that she sees, both good and bad, and emphasizes the need for young people to get involved in their communities.
“After King was assassinated, um, I was still in junior high school. And that was the night before– was the night right after he was killed, there was riots all through Harlem. Um, everyone was upset. And the next day school was closed, but my friends and I– we walked around 125th street to see what was going on. And, um, Muhammad Ali was walking down the street. This was just, like, unbelievable. And he– we were all, like, in awe when we met him. And he said to us, ‘Just stay in school and stay out of trouble.’”
ANNOTATIONS
Annotations coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Kelly Prevard
Interview conducted remotely
February 1, 2022
Transcription by Eriel Santagado
Disclaimer: This transcript contains explicit language. It is presented as it exists in the original audio recording for the benefit of research. This material in no way reflects the views of coLAB Arts.
[00:00:00]
Welcome! This interview is being conducted by me, the interviewer, Kelly Prevard. Um, we are doing this interview via zoom, electronically. Today’s date is February 1st, 2022. I am speaking with Deborah Morgan. Can you introduce yourself and just give me your current residence and date of birth?
Hey, I am Deborah Morgan. I live in Highland Park, New Jersey, and I was, uh, born on March 8th, 1955.
Okay. All right, let's start our questions. So where and when were you born?
I was born in Philadelphia, uh, Pennsylvania on a trip. Um, my mother was on a trip visiting relatives and I was born two weeks early in Philadelphia.
Hmm.
I, uh, um, I grew up in New York. But we were, uh, she said she was visiting our family in Philly. And I was born.
Oh yeah?
Came early.
And who were the people who were most important in raising you?
Uh, my mother and, um, my grandmother.
Hmm.
I don’t remember– my grandfather, uh, passed away when I was– I think they said about two or three. But my, um– we lived in an extended family, um, in Harlem. We grew up in Harlem. Um, a fourth floor, uh, fifth floor tenement. We lived on the fourth floor. And I lived with my, um, mother and– and my grandmother. And in and out there was a host of my different uncles and cousins who would live there. And then, um, over time we moved to the next building– my mother and I. I’m an only child.
Only child? Hmm.
Right. But my mother had, uh, my mother’s no longer with me– but, uh, we had– she had eleven siblings.
Would you [overlapping dialogue] like your mother’s name– any of that kind of information?
Yes. My, um, mother’s name is Marianne Lowry, L-O-W-R-Y. She was a single mom [pause]. And she was really the matriarch of– of the Lowry family, along with my grandmother. But she was the, um, she was, um, the youngest sibling. But she, um, she, uh, helped the family. She had– she was the foundation that pulled a lot of us together. And my grandma looked to her to help support– sometime it was a burden for her. She felt like she couldn’t really live her life. But, you know, it was always the two of us and I really miss her. We spent a lot of time together. I think back when I, you know, I saw James Brown the other day and I remember going to the Apollo Theater with her. I was her date!
Yeah. Do you have any other, like, beautiful memories that stick out to you about your relationship with your mother?
Uh, I have, um, a lot of the time we spent together watching her uplift herself. She, um, she didn’t graduate from high school. Uh, she worked, um, she worked as a maid in a hotel downtown. And she went and she got her GED. And then she went to business school and I was there when everything happened. I remember one, um– I think I was maybe in the fifth or sixth grade where she didn’t have a job when we moved to the next building. But that was one of the best Christmases we had. Um, we had just a few gifts and a good dinner and we spent the time together.
That’s beautiful.
[00:04:34]
[Clears throat] Yeah, so, a lot of good memories. Her– you know– I look at all the political strife and everything going on. And her– she was always socially conscious. It was really interesting– she didn't realize– she was more of a loner and, um, really a depressed type person, a– quiet, but had the dignity. And I was– sadly, I was able to see her up and down emotions. She was a true Gemini. But I saw all the good– good in her. She was, um, she had many talents. She was an artist– unrealized artist. She liked to write, um, prose– so she would write us in the Christmas cards. She’d have a lot of little prose in the– in the cards– simple ones, but, “My baby girl, I love you.” It was just really beautiful. She did with– with my children– it was the same kind of thing. We still have the little stickers and her little prose.
And can you tell me a little more about the house you grew up in? Did you have your own room?
I had my– when we moved next door, I had my own room and that’s why we moved. We shared a bed together. It was actually a twin sized bed. And we, um, when we lived with my grandmother. But, you know, it’s funny you don’t realize that you’re– you’re in your comfort. You know, when my mother started working– when she was working, um, the elementary school was down the street, PS90. So, my grandmother would make my breakfast and shooed me off to school. She would watch from the window, the fourth floor window, and I would walk down to the school.
Hmm, beautiful. Alright [clears throat], and what were you like growing up?
Um, I don’t know. That’s– that’s
What were your interests? Who were your friends?
I was, um, a passionate, uh, read. I read all of the time. And, in fact, where we lived then in Harlem, there’s a development called Macombs Place. Macombs Place had a small library. And it– I believe it’s– I think my husband, uh, said it was still lit– it was, uh, actually a one-room library– you couldn’t make this stuff up. And I would go to the library, um, very early on. You know, my mother introduced me to the library. So I was always reading because it could take you and you can dream and aspire to do different things. And then, as I got older, I could walk on the hill. There was another, uh, library on the hill. Or go downtown to, uh, Countee Cullen Library, which Countee Cullen Library at that time included the Schomburg Collection. It’s really interesting and it was– the Schomburg Collection was this junky room of papers and periodicals and everything. Um, I lived in Harlem at a, uh, very exciting time– in a time of turbulence. So, I was able to, um, I’m always listening, um, I was quiet. I guess I was kind of a quiet child. I loved music. My mother had a love of music. And she loved jazz. So, I know a lot about jazz. I hated it then, but I can pick up on songs. So, our house always had a lot of music. And I remember on, um, Sunday, she couldn’t– you couldn’t listen to any kind of, um– you only could listen to gospel in my grandmother’s house. You could not iron– you couldn’t do anything because that was the Lord’s day. But in my mother’s house, we could listen to music on Sunday. And on, um– every summer, um, my, um, mother’s oldest sister lived in Philly. So every summer– I think I believe I started going. I was young, like 4 or 5. I would go to, uh, Philadelphia for the summer to stay with my aunt and her, um, four kids. So I spent a lot– and, and it’s funny, I don’t have a lot of memories about them because I was always with them. I couldn’t tell you– I can see things now, when I go to Philly, and I remember.
Hmm.
[00:09:37]
Yeah, so, um, I was a fairly good student. Um, the elementary school was down the street and the junior high school went from 6th grade to 8th grade and that was, um, PS136. At the time, it was also called Harriet Beecher Stowe Junior High School. And the most interesting thing, uh, that happened. Um, we was in a trip– where were we? We were in, um, I can’t even remember the state we was in. I got to look back on the state. But there was a, um– oh we was in Arizona. And we went to this exhibit and the exhibit had a whole, uh, exhibit about Harriet Beecher Stowe, the high school. So, the artist must have been from the– it was the weirdest thing.
Hmm. Do you know about what year– like around what time that was? What grade you were in?
Uh, the 6th grade. There was the 6th through the 8th.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because, uh, um, PS90 was a kindergarten through the 5th grade. And– and, um, 136– and it was an all girls high school. So, Harriet Beecher Stowe Junior High was all girls. A couple blocks away was the all boys junior high school and that was Frederick Douglass. And now I believe it’s a charter school. So, we, the girls, we would be so excited when the boys would come around at lunch time, because it was just girls. But that was the most fun I had at school. We had, um, we only had one– one black teacher. He was the music teacher, Mr. Rosten. He was a tall, dignified guy, but, um, the chorus was fun. And I’m not a singer, but it was just a, um, I guess the fellowship and the songs. We would sing some of the songs from, um, The Fifth Dimension. You know, all the hip songs. He would– he was really really good. And I just remember only the custodians and in the cafeteria were the black people and that one black teacher.
Hmm.
And the girls.
Wow.
And then I went to high school downtown Manhattan. Seward– Seward Park High School. S-E-W-A-R-D.
And was that coed then?
Hmm? That was coed. And several of us– because my close friends lived– we all lived in the same area up on 48th Street. And between, uh, 7th and 8th and I think it’s called Frederick Douglass– I got to remember what the other avenue was called. Everything’s renamed now. And we all lived in that area. Everyone knew everyone in the block. It was really– and I still have some of my friends now, uh, that I know from, uh, childhood. But I would see them– the only disadvantages– and then when I was about 15 or 16, I told my mother I want to be around for the summer. I would miss seeing them and not being involved with people, because I would go away. The school would– would end– the last day of school was June 30th. And either my uncle– he would drive me to Philly, but most of the time he would take me. And we– we would drive– take the ride down to Philly. And then I would come home the day before school opened. And she’d, you know, have all the new clothes. And, you know, one of the Philly things I’d think about is, um, I would call her on– because my aunt didn’t have a phone, so we’d go down the street to the, um, telephone booth. And I would call her. The other things I really remember in the– it, um, memories come up when you’re in other settings. Um, I had a, um, supervisor– we were all to lunch, and he grew up in Philadelphia. And he said, “Yeah, I remember when,” uh, he’s a white man, “I remember when we didn’t want, um, people to live in our neighborhoods.” And I said to him, you know, I was one of those people where my aunt told me I– there were blocks where the Italians did not want Blacks to walk down. So, when I would go to the store for my aunt she said, “Do not walk down that block.” So, I knew– you knew about segregation and racial issues very early on. You become conscious of what’s going on around you. I can remember some of the, um, outbreaks of, um, unrest– riots in Harlem where the, um, cop would abuse. In, uh, Philadelphia, when the cops would abuse people. So, early on you think about things, but it comes up later. When you hear other conversations and you become brave enough to say something.
[00:15:16]
So, how– how was it that– how was it that nav– how did you navigate those spaces as a younger [overlapping dialogue]?
Well, I navigated in our community, in Harlem, at that time was filled with culture. And– and the collective. We had, um, several community organizations right in, um– that had summer programs. So, I was away for the summer, but when I was able to stay home I worked at some of, uh, one of the programs. It was the Neighborhood Mother’s Club and then it was Mr. Bradley’s program across the street. And, um, on the summer we would do the daytime trips and in winter there was a breakfast program. Modeled, uh, I guess very much like the Black Panthers. But this lady who became my mentor, her name was Ms. Ann Reagan. I started working with her and this is another interesting thing. When, uh, she would have teas– you know how the women have teas? They have someone come and read, uh, do a reading. So, I would help her on Saturdays, uh, by, um, delivering some of the dinners and peeling onions and different things. And she eventually opened, um, a little club for students. So the, uh, kids could stay out of trouble and I worked there. I would– first, I volunteered and then she got a grant. At that time, um, the communities in Harlem were very enriched with grants. So, uh, you would get your summer stipend and then after school you’d get– you would, um, get some money. And it– it was just a wealth of culture.
Hmm.
So, when I graduated from high school, um, I was still living in Harlem. Um, sadly, that was the time of, um, unrest and, um, uh, White Flight, um– abandoned buildings. It was a really difficult time. Um, the, uh, buildings would just– most buildings had been abandoned and most of us lived in abandoned buildings. I lived in an abandoned building with my mother and a host of families that main– did our best to maintain the buildings.
Hmm.
Like I can’t stand to be cold and when I see people cold, a lot of what I do now is because I know how they are feeling, or code blue and different things.
Mhm.
Our mother had arthritis from the cold– washing up in cold water. All it– it all kind of worked out. And then we eventually moved from the area. But I went, um, to City College, which was on the hill, so I could walk to school. And then I had, um, a part time job on, um– I had a part time job at another, um– I think it’s called the Youth Council. And I did– I would go there, um, work during the summer and after school.
And, um, you said you went to City College. You walked there?
Yes, yeah. And– and eventually we moved. I, uh, we moved to the– we moved to the Bronx. And then, um, at– I think I was 20, um, I started dating my husband. You know, we’ve been together, I think that it's got to be like forty-seven years. But we’ve been married for forty-three– I think it’s forty-three or forty-four years. But I met him then and we moved– we moved together to upper Manhattan.
Hmm.
No, I– I just needed to, um, I needed to have some space. And we– we were together for– for, uh, that time we moved to upper Manhattan. And then, my mother– eventually she moved from the Bronx because, yet again, it was another place with no heat and hot water. So, she moved to upper Manhattan. Um, and you know– and I lived a few blocks away from her at that time.
Hmm. I do want to ask you a little more about, like, your love story. You know, for a lot of [unclear]– their spouses are very important to their success. Um, can you tell me a little bit about your love story? Like, a little more– [overlapping dialogue].
Yeah, okay. So, um, I, uh, Bruce and I met at a college party. Um, I was with a few of my college friends and life long friends. And we met at a party and the other people– some of his male friends I knew– I already knew from school and stuff. And interestingly, he grew up a block from me. And his– he was more– his family was more upwardly mobile, a more middle class family than my family. And they lived in the Paul Dunbar houses. And that’s a development that’s still on 149th street on the 8th Avenue in Harlem. And I met him at that party and he pestered me [laughs] to go out with him. I always told him, “No, I’m studying. I’m doing this and that.” He continued to pursue him and the most interesting thing is my mother really liked him. It was– she never liked anyone else [laughs]. And, um, after dating– I had a boyfriend in high school for a while and then we eventually drifted. And he and I, um, we started dating. And I met his family. And I fell in love with his family, too, his parents and everything. And we– we dated for five years. Um, I think we married in 1979, I believe it was. And we got married at that time. And we moved to Flushing. And I married into a, um, a family of love.
Hmm.
[00:22:03]
That’s what his– his family, um, meant to me. And my mother loved– liked him. It was amazing. And, you know, I think some of the– because she was alone, there was a little jealousy that I was being taken away. But, you know, we– we maintained a relationship. And he and I are still together and we soldier on together. He’s the president of the NAACP and I’m the secretary right now. And we– we do civil rights together as a couple. And we’re, you know, we’re known across the state for working together. And, um, interestly, Bruce’s, his birthday, we’re both Pisceans. His birthday is– we’re exactly two weeks from each other. Um, we get along, you know, right now, during the pandemic, we– this was the big test [laughs loudly]. And we [unclear] we like each other, but, you know it was a test [laughs].
A little trying there at first? [laughs]
Yes. And he was a great father and something I didn’t have. My dad was not in my life. Uh, he was, uh, he would appear every once in a while. And there lies another interesting story.
Hmm.
So– and I know I’m going all over the place.
It’s okay! It’s okay.
So, Bruce, he wanted to do the ancestry DNA. He was nagging and nagging me and I finally did it. And, you know, the results came and then I kept getting these hits. You know, when I, um, once I got the results and, um, you know, I found out I’m probably 80%– I think it was like three or four percent Native American, which, you know, my uncles have always said it was there. And Bruce just, uh, yeah, everyone says– all black people say [laughs] they are Native Americans. But I– I am in the, um, I forgot [unclear]– all parts of Africa. It was really interesting, my ancestry. But the hits I was getting was from the, uh, my– a cousin from my father’s side of the family. So about, uh, four years ago, we met and we have a relationship now. Sadly, he– he died in, uh, 2007. We never got to see each other. We would talk on the phone, but I’m getting to know him through them.
Hmm.
You– you get to know people. He was a good uncle, but he was very much like my mother. I– I was his only child and I was my mother’s only child. They both had some kind of emotional issues. They were very much tied to their families. It was really interesting the parallels that they had. And, um, his family is absolutely beautiful and they have accepted me and they have accepted my family. So it’s been a nice journey, but it was like “Wow!” Because I was ignoring the hits, because they send you different notes. And they have been a blessing.
That’s beautiful. Yeah, so, family seems to be very important to you.
Yes.
Can you tell me a little bit more about your children?
Okay, so, um, my son will be 40 on Sunday. And I have, uh, a– he is a, um, um, independent. He has his own, uh, retail graphic design business. He is an artist, but he [laughs] he graduated from the Fashion Institute of Technology in Menswear. But he was always sketching and doing different things and he worked in the business for a while. And then he decided to go on his own. And at that time menswear and design, fashion– the economy was so bad that he took his direction to retail websites and he’s doing well. And my daughter is, um, 36 years old. She’s a professional dancer. And she, um, dances– she’s one of the, um, few African Americans dancing with the Radio City Rockettes. And she, um, she’s in her 16th season. She’s the dance captain and assistant choreographer now. She was trained at the Ailey School, Alvin Ailey School of Dance. And they had a BFA program at Fordham University. So, she does that. They both live in New York. My son and his fiancé live in– in, um, Brooklyn. She lives in Manhattan with her, um, husband. I don’t– we don’t have any grandkids yet [laughs]. Hopefully, I– we have granddogs.
Are you waiting for them?
Yeah, but, um, I’m very close to, um, my kids. My– my husband worked in the oil industry and he was a ship worker. He was a safety coordinator. So a lot of the time, um, I was with the kids as I worked, too. We, um, and he was a good dad when he was off. He spent a lot of time with the kids. It was something that I didn’t have. He was a great, he is a great father. He– he’s been very good with them. And, I don’t know, maybe him working on different ships is why we get along. The ships, you know, we’d see each other in passing sometime, but– [laughs] but we get along really well. Um, I don’t know about my kids. I’m very close with them. I speak with my daughter everyday. Um, texts, more texts from my son. A couple of phone calls, typical of– of men. Yes, but my– my daughter, I– I speak with her frequently. And they– they are doing well. We grew up– Highland Park’s a small town. Um, it’s only like 14,000 people in town. Um, [sighs] I dont know if it’s some– it, I guess it is diverse. Because, you know, you don’t talk to each other. It’s just the make up of the town. But it, um, they went from, uh, kindergarden through the high school and they have life long in Highland Park. But, you know, it’s a– it’s a good town. The schools were good. There were issues around, uh, race and, um, equity in the school, when, you know, we would step up. I found that we always had to step up for something. And especially with my son. You know, they– hmm?
Can you tell me a little bit more about those experiences?
[00:29:35]
Oh, um, I– one of the, uh, class parents, um, who I became friendly with, she told me that she felt that the, um, first grade teacher would single him out for different things. So, you know, that had to be addressed. Um, when my son was in the 4th grade, he had friends, um, they were, um, I think they were Pakistani or what. But they were, uh, standing at a corner and, uh, the friend had a bike that my son was helping them put together. And the cop came up and called them the “N” word– called them, you know, nigger and, “Where did you steal that bike?” And so when our son told us, my husband went and spoke to the, um, police, um, director, who was black at the time in Highland Park. And the cop was reprimanded. So you begin to see, especially, the glaring things in small towns and–
Mhm.
You– the issues in New York, but they really– they’re triggers more in– in some communities. And that’s, hmm?
No, I don’t want to cut you off. You can continue.
Yeah, and that’s when I, you know, I– when [sighs] we began to work for different groups in the community. Like, Highland Park, uh, didn’t desegregate the schools until, uh, really, 1985. You know, we found out different things of what was going on in the town.
Hmm. That’s very interesting.
Yeah, it– it was really int– so we– and, you know, Bruce, uh, started out more, working with some of the groups. And then I came on later on, because I was, um, really focused on the kids. And I would, um, one good thing I did, when they were in the middle school, they had, uh, parent advocates. So, there were family members, especially from, uh, Latino, um, neighbors, who were intimidated by going to the school to get help. So, I, you know, as a parent advocate, you would welcome them, and, you know, they could call you if they had any issues. So, it– things came up naturally because of something, an incident happening, really to my son. Boys– young women, black women are targeted, too, always. But, uh, young men they just– it’s some kind of trigger for them. Teacher– you know, my son would tell me things, like, one teacher, um, he said, “Oh, um, Mac got this grade and I got the same– I got a different grade– a lower grade.” So, I said, we got to challenge this. So, you always– you have to pay attention.
Mhm. And so you’ve been in Highland Park for how many years now? [overlapping dialogue]
Uh, thirty-six, it’ll be thirty-seven years.
It’ll be thirty-seven years?
Yeah.
And during that time, have you– have you seen a major change? [overlapping dialogue]
I’ve seen– yeah, I do. There’s some good changes and it’s– it’s because of the people that are coming in. There are some, uh, good people in town doing a lot and getting involved. Uh, I’ve seen a lot of changes over the years.
Mhm.
And it’s nice to see, um, um, more of the– the younger people stepping up. Especially people of color. And the church here– the First Reformed Church in Highland Park that’s very, um, progressive.
First Reformed Church?
Yeah, um.
Any other organizations that stick out for you?
Okay, well, you know I’m with the NAACP. This, um, just some smaller groups that are working on– on effecting change in the town. I have to think about this. Some– some groups here and then and– and in our role with the NAACP, we partner with so many different groups.
Mmhmm.
But many of, um, much of what I did earlier on was very grassroots. Getting to know other parents, uh, working with, um– when we had issues in town with policing the peoples walking [unclear] progress. And, um, an activist– she’s no longer living, uh, but she was– she grew up in Highland Park, Vicki White. So, we connected with her and– and that’s where we began to work with other families– other black families in town.
Mhm. I wanted to ask you about, um, your heroes? Did you have any heroes? I mean, at any age, when you grew up, that you– inspired you and?
Okay, let me see. Wow, there’s– there’s many. Well, I can tell you I have a crush– I had a crush on Grover Washington Junior, who’s no longer living. In fact, my husband went with me. We went to his funeral in– in Philly. I thought he was like my boyfriend [laughs]. And– and it [sighs]– I saw him for the first time. Um, I was about 16, 17. And at that time, Central Park had those free concerts. And I saw him playing with a bunch of friends. But I– I think it’s a– many of the standard, uh, heroes and sheroes, um, after King was assassinated, um, I was still in junior high school. And that was the night before– was the night right after he was killed, there was riots all through Harlem. Um, everyone was upset. And the next day school was closed, but my friends and I– we walked around 125th street to see what was going on. And, um, Muhammad Ali was walking down the street. This was just, like, unbelievable. And he– we were all, like, in awe when we met him. And he said to us, “Just stay in school and stay out of trouble.”
Hmm.
[00:36:41]
It was many, many people. I spoke about Ms. Anne– that Ms. Anne Reagan, who, um, who was a person that I kind of, I looked up to, who mentored me. Um, there’s so many people. I have to think about–
Mhm.
You know, some of the, um, I was in awe of, um, Angela Davis. I thought– and I didn’t mention– I had, uh, um, one of my life long friends, uh, she also worked with me. Her name was, uh, Phyllis. And sadly, she, um, when I was five months pregnant, she was hit by a drunken driver near her home. But she and I were, like, thick as thieves. And we would, um, we went to City College together. We also would, um, we would plan our reading for the summer, because she and I, we– we were about the reading. So, there’s a black liberation book store we would always go to and, you know, we’d, uh, purchase a few books. Books was really inexpensive. You know, you look at what we’ve gone through now, banning books. It’s, like, crazy. And ther,I think it’s like the– what is the source of knowledge book? The black liberation bookstore is very similar. But I didn’t talk about Phyllis. Phyllis was a real, uh, part of my life. And, sadly, time stopped. You know, I was really, really depressed, um, while I was pregnant with my daughter because of the loss of her. She and I were– we just did every– so much together.
Hmm, hmm.
So that was, um, was a real shock. And we were friends since 5, 6 years old. You know, all of the Harlem extended friendship. But I didn’t talk about that. I– I don’t talk about her as much now. You know, I was looking at pictures the other day. And, you know, I saw her. And she got to meet, um, my son. She was his godmother. And that, um, she never got to marry. Um, she had a few relationships. Very interesting.
Hmm.
But she was my partner in crime.
Hmm.
We got a lot done.
You did a lot of work together?
Yeah, we worked at different places. We went to City College together. She was a nurse. She, um, was a prenatal nurse. She worked at Lebanon Hospital. I got my, uh, sociology degree. And, um, I had planned on teaching because I also, um, took a lot of the social work courses. And I worked at several, uh, National Council on Crime & Delinquency. A lot of the nonprofits I worked on for several years.
Hmm. And just to go back a little bit.
Yeah.
I know spoke about, um, when Dr. King was assassinated.
Right.
Tell me a little bit more about that. Um, how you were impacted by that?
I was– it was very devastating. Um, uh, we got a TV because it– we was, you know, when we lived with my grandmother– because we was still with my grandmother then, there was no TV sometime [laughs]. So, you– you heard a lot on the radio. But I believe at that time that we saw things on the news, too. We saw a lot on the news. We also had, um, I look back on things– we had a lot of, um, political activism in the towns. And, you know, in– within Harlem. And I have to think back, because there’s a lot of people that I remember seeing or seeing about in the news on– or different things. It’s just so interesting when you go back and realize that you was there, like the famous Apollo Theater.
Hmm.
[00:41:24]
How, uh, we would go there. And we would see The Temptations, James Brown, eve– just everyone. You would spend the day. And you would see, uh, a terrible movie. We’d have the– the movie then, uh, a thousand little movies, the pictorials. And then, um, you would see all of The Temptations of the Motown Revue. All of the history that, um, was part of Harlem. We would see. Um, we went to Union Baptist Church. You know, I was sent to church. That was, you know, parents just, “Get, go– go now!” [laughs] And that’s where, um, and Union Baptist Church at that time was on Har– on 45th Street between 7th and 8th Avenue. I gotta ask Bruce– I think 8th Avenue is Frederick Douglass. I can’t remember what 7th Avenue was now. No– I don’t know if it’s Malcolm X. I have to find out. Um, at City College, um, was also a time of strife. City College was, um, they were doing a lot of construction, you know, on campus. But they were not hiring, uh, blacks as part of the construction workers. So there was a protest. And– and really rioting. I can remember coming out and running back in because you could hear, like, gun shots. It– it was a– I just remember a lot. Um, the black history, uh, black history studies program was really big, you know, at that time. The Leonard Jeffries, who lives in Newark, right? Doesn’t he live in there?
I think.
Yeah, um, having him as a professor. That was a– you could barely get into those classes at that time. Um, I’m thinking about a– there was so much going on at that time. But there was a lot of good stuff too. Um, just– just a matter of us being with– with our people. Being, you know, the collective together.
Mhm. And what did you major in in college?
Um, I had a– just, I just majored in sociology.
Mhm. Mhm. Was there anything that people would be surprised to learn about your college years?
Hmm. I– I don’t know. Well, I– I– no, I don’t know. It was really typical.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it seems like you’ve been in, some way, some form, always being a part of activism.
Right.
Because I was going to ask you about, um, like, during your college years, what are any specific experiences that got you involved in activism and advocacy?
I think just working in the community organizations you stayed, um, apprised of what was going.
Mhm.
Uh, at the last, um, at that nonprofit I worked at, uh, we had some programs where we would, um, help students who were interested in going to college. We would, uh, pull together information, uh, for them. It’s just being in– in that environment. Whatever service was needed at that time.
Hmm.
And that’s, you know, that’s essentially it. There was so much going on. I have to sit back and think about those years again. Harlem looks so different that– that area.
Mhm. Okay, and I guess that this leads into, um– I wanted to ask you a little bit about your career leading into where you are now. Like, how did you get to where you are now? If you could tell me a little bit about that.
Ok, so, I’m trying to figure out– I, we moved to– we moved from Flushing, Queens. And we moved primarily because Bruce was commuting and he, uh, was about to go crazy. At that time, I worked at, um, oh, I didn’t talk about Covenant House. I worked at Covenant House. Um, I worked in the, um, fundraising office. I was an executive assistant. And Covenant House started out on 44th Street in a small building. And it had a program for homeless young people who, um, and I worked at Covenant House which was organized by a priest who eventually got in trouble for abusing, um, boys. And, um, nuns, ex-nuns, primarily organized it. It was a very interesting place. That was another area where you saw a lot of social activism. And I was one of the few, uh, people of color that worked there. But you learned– I learned a lot about the business of fundraising. And, um, I got– I gained some skills there. I left there when I, um, got pregnant with my son. I had a, um, kind of a high risk pregnancy. So, I– I left and I did not return to that position.
[00:47:26]
And when I went back to work, I worked, uh, in Newak at that time, uh, at the National Council for Crime & Delinquency. And I worked there for a couple of years until they– uh, a year, until they closed the offices. They are– headquarters in California. After that, I worked at the, uh, University of Medicine and Dentistry. They had, um, a foundation group. So, I went. That job with that awful– it was an awful person there. And I was an executive assistant there. It was another interesting job, but he was crazy. And I would work– we would have– it was almost like you working from seven to seven and I couldn’t do that because I needed to pick up my son. Um, he would get his lunch and have a meeting and we– we’re sitting there watching him. And when I went to file some papers in this office, I saw all these people who had resigned [laughs]. There was like [laughs] and I was going to be on that list. So I moved from that job and I, uh, temped for a while with Kelly Professional Services. And that was good. And I temped for a while. Then I, um, I was pregnant with my daughter, so I took the brief leave. Then, I went back to work when she was about two. I did some more temp jobs. And then, I, um, got a job at Johnson and Johnson. And, um, there I worked, um, a professional line. I worked in the, um, quality and compliance group. And I was there 31 and a half years. And at that job, um, uh, they have cradle around volunteering. So, that was another opportunity to get involved with different projects and work with, uh, black professionals who, um, care about the community. And we would work collectively for issues around employment at work, um, equity at work and some community efforts. So, I was there 31 and a half years and that’s how I, um, I met many of the people I know now on various projects.
Hmm. So, now you are this [unclear] chair of the health committee of New Brunswick NAACP?
Right. And I am also the advisor to the Rutgers NAACP New Brunswick Chapter. So, the past three years I’ve been their advisor. Um, a phenomenal group of young leaders. They’re really good. And it’s got to be more. I think this is the fourth or fifth president that, um, I worked with. And really the whole branch, but I’m the direct contact.
So, I know the N double– of course then the– the NAACP does so much, but can you tell me about some of the advocacy work you’ve done in this role? Or, one thing–
Okay, um. Around, uh, health and wellness, um, especially now with COVID, um, I’ve been involved with working with– on representing their brands. We’re on a couple of advisory groups. There’s a Healthier New Brunswick Alliance that, uh, is a collection of over twenty-some, um, organizations. And that organization– COVID has, uh, created needs, uh, you know, um, that extend beyond housing, employment, food, and security. So, I’ve been a member of that group in a supportive role. The NAACP, we’re an advisory group. We’re not a direct service. But it’s up to us to help, to, you know, help, be in a supportive role with these organizations. Like, for example, um, a couple weeks ago, one of our community partners, Rutgers Institute for Health, they have had a COVID testing, uh, site open for well over a year. And their, uh, VP decided that it should close down. And that was the height of when, you know, the testing, uh, started. So, we had a letter campaign and they have reopened. And, you know, the collective groups– New Brunswick Tomorrow. Some of the groups coLAB work with, Puerto Rican Action Board. Um, you know, I work with People’s Organization for Progress. We partner with them on various things. Um, all of the voting engagement that’s going on now, um, the redistricting. We’re working with, um, we’re collaborating with The New Jersey Institute for Social Justice. And several of our offices for– I, um, one of the offices in this– our executive committee is about eighteen of us and we’re, um, multi-generational. It’s important to me that, um, the NAACP engage with young people. The average age is too old and we get– we have to begin to, um, bring leaders up. Like, I had the opportunity. And this– it’s– it’s slow, but it’s starting to happen. But, do you know what I mean? It’s just not enough of a voice from them. And we have to listen and learn.
[00:53:48]
Mhm. So, how do you find this type of work meaningful and what motivates you to do it?
Uh, there’s a need. You know, there– there is, um, like, our branch has a support line and we get calls. Like, recently, many of our calls now are, um, calls about, um, legal– legal, uh, issues with police and others. Um, other calls around, uh, housing. There’s a lot of housing discrimination going on now. And it– it’s been interesting. It’s a– it’s been across cultures that the housing discrimination issues come on. When people call you and there’s a– just a need for help. It’s just as simple as that. Where can I– what can I do to lend a hand? But you also have to take the time for quality time for yourself, too. I– you know, the, uh, young lady that, uh, killed herself the other day. Did you? Wow, I–
[Overlapping dialogue] In the USA, two years ago I believe.
Yeah. Yeah, then, um Regina Hill’s son– uh, King’s son. We’re– we’re at a– a time where we’re just not healthy.
Yeah. Yeah.
And, you know, fighting on voter’s– voter rights. We’re going to, um– everyday, I’ll go– it is– is our right to vote. And all of the other things that we do, uh, our branch, we’re out in the streets. We’re at, um, safely, uh, during, uh, Black Lives Matter, you know, after George Floyd was gone. We were there but we were also registering people. Um, the Rutgers Chapter was with us registering people and just getting– getting people out.
Mhm. I was going to, um, and you already started kind of answering this question too, but I wanted to ask you about any historic events, or marches, protests, or performances that you’ve experienced that you wanted to speak about.
Okay, let’s see. [Sighs] We’ve been all around in D.C. [sighs]. Pre-pandemic, we’d travel all around the states for the NAACP conventions. We’ve been just about to most states where they have hosted conventions. This year, um, first time in fifty years, the convention will be in Atlantic City– the NAACP convention. I’m trying to think. There’s so many historical things I’ve done [laughs].
It’s hard to narrow it down, right?
Yeah, yeah. It– it really is. Um, many of the– the marches that we’ve been to, um, I don’t know. I have to think about that. There’s a– there’s so much that we’ve– we’ve done. Um, I think the most impactful, recently, have been the Black Lives Matter and sup– being a– supporting that.
Mhm.
All of those protests that we– we’ve, um, been at, been participating in and supporting.
Hmm. You kind of already answered this too, but, um, can you tell more about how you have personally been involved with fighting for voting rights?
Personally? By voting [laughs]. Um–
Or with any organizations you’ve been involved with– I know you’ve been with many– [overlapping dialogue]
Yeah, no. But, um, different organizations: The League of Women Voters, The Institute for Social Justice, our partner branches. Um, every year we, um, we go onsite at Rutgers, um, on National Voter Registration Day. We register voters. Um, this year I was– last year I was glad that they let us come on– go onsite again. Because, you know, we’ve had to do a lot virtually. Um, when people were marching, we were set up in a place outside registering voters, doing the census outreach. Encouraging people to participate in the census. All of the, um, redistricting, um, around, um, uh, racial equity maps of our community, so we don’t lose representation. You know, we’ve been involved with that. Um, I handle a lot of the communications for the branch. So, I do a lot of reading and a lot of, uh, engagement with the community. So, the information I, uh, share on social media– it’s very important that, uh, community members know that we are here in a supportive role.
Hmm. And can you tell me if you, or any of your close friends and families, face any obstacles or hardships in exercising their right to vote? Whether that be present, or in the past?
Um, we had, um, the last general election– one of our member’s son– and it– people don’t think these things happen in New Jersey. And he went to vote in Somer– in Somerset, in Franklin Township. And the poll worker told him he needed an ID. And she wouldn’t let him vote. So, his mother called, she called me. You know, she gave me a call– let me know. We told her what to do. And then we, um, our civic engagement chair, Toni Hendrix, was there at one of the other polling places. So, they got it sorted out. So, those are the things that happen. We will get calls. And it’s, like, you would– you do not believe these things happen here in New Jersey. And we have to keep that in mind. You know, my husband, um, just wrapped up– he was, uh, chair of the, um, in town, our democratic committee. And when we first moved here, we went to the polls. It was some scary people there who were just reluctant to engage with you. And when he, um, was, um, elected to chair the democratic committee. You began to see the, uh, demographics of the poll workers and challengers was more diverse and young people. Everytime I went in there I was like, “Wow!” So, that was a big contribution. You know, and at that time, uh, I stopped– I wasn’t involved as– so I got more involved with the NAACP. But, uh, in the beginning I would help him, you know, just get out in the community. So, having a, um, black democratic chair in town was really support– important in– in me supporting him, as we support each other.
[1:01:46]
Mhm. Yeah, um, and speaking about those, like, um, you know, since 2013 when the Supreme Court invalidated to keep parts of the Voting Rights Act–
Right.
You know, when many states enacted those newly restricted voter laws, like, how do you feel about that and about voter suppression?
It’s real. It’s, um, it’s here in New Jersey. You know, I– I saw, um, quietly, the last election. You– you could see how with– how South Jersey is becoming more Red. South Jersey is becoming more Red. And there’s pockets of– of things going on. We recently, uh– one of the council women, um, and this is on the NAACP side, uh, she wrapped up her term. A council woman in Old Bridge, uh, received a, uh, hate mail. And she contacted us early morning and, um, we collectively got together with her and the branch that’s in that Old Bridge area. And, um, we went out to, um, one of the council meetings. We sup– just supported her. We– a press release and everything. And– and what my, um, my branch has done, we, for our partner branches in, um, Metuchen-Edison area and Perth Amboy, we try to support them. For, uh, Councilwoman, Edina Brown– she was getting, um, and she was getting from the so-called Democrats hate all along the council. And we came in, uh, and we supported her. And she wrapped up her term, but now she’s out, uh, working with various women groups. You know, and that’s what we try to do. Our branch partners with, uh, we’ve, um, uh, the Women’s of– women’s political group. I can’t remember their name– with Eagleton Institute, we’ll support their programs. They had, um, uh, I forgot who they had. They have a, uh, um, Chairman Lipman program. I’ll send out, um, you know– let me look up her name. She’s with the, um, she just appointed with N– NBC, MSNBC. But we’ve supported their programs when Donna Brazile has been on. You know, other programs, we’d make sure we’re in a supportive role, but we– we’re going to have issues.
Yeah.
And we have to keep fighting. We really do.
Yeah. Speaking on that, what is your hope and dream for the future of voting rights?
I hope that, um, I really hope that, um, the Biden administration can get voting rights passed and reestablished. That is the only way we can get, um, beyond all of these 200 plus, um, voter suppression bills. And they’re coming– they’re just coming from everywhere.
Yeah.
I’m just hoping that we can continue to mobilize together. You know, to get these passed. And, you know, the part of, um, the NAACP, we were at an all units national NAACP– had a call a couple of weeks ago where they, um, they mobilize you. We do the online, um, voter outreach. We text to people, call them, on– in the target states. So, that means we do not always work in New Jersey. We work at any of the target states that’s, um, there are issues going on. But we’re in serious trouble. And if Trump gets in again I’m– I’m, like, terrified.
Mhm.
Did you see the, um, threats of bombing at the HBCUs. They posted something that they’re– we’re– it’s just everywhere.
[1:06:28]
Hmm. Well, so, I’m at the, basically, the end of most of my questions for you. Um, I just wanted to ask you about–
And– and let me tell you about, uh, one of the other big projects I’m going to be working on. Um, before we– our branch will be partnering with– on black maternal and infant health. We’ll be working with the, uh, prematurity initiative. And we want to make sure, uh, that’s another issue in the, um, my branch’s area. Our [unclear] areas in Middlesex County and the southern portion of Somerset, which includes Franklin Township. Our, um, black brothers, um, mothers and– and babies. Um, [sighs] we need to encourage them to, um, participate in the services in our local hospitals. And we’re working with, um, most of our– our people will go to the hospital when it’s high risk. And we want to, um, encourage them for prenatal care early on. So, we’re working on, uh, um, we hope to begin to launch in the county sometime. We’ll do a soft launch, uh, this April or May timeframe. So, that’s another big project. We are modeling after our Atlantic City branch, who are working with, uh, First Lady, uh, Tammy Murphy, under Nurture New Jersey. And it just launched under the Newark NAACP branch in Essex County. And we’re going to mirror that. So, that’s a big, big one for us.
Hmm.
And our involvement with, um, Robert Wood Johnson Barnabas Health on health equity. So, those are the big, big wins for us. Where we– we really need to, uh, we’re going to partner with, um, March of Dimes. Um, another partner for us is New Jersey, uh, Black Women’s Physician Org– Association. I don’t know if you heard of that group, but you know several of the groups. So, that’s another one I forgot to mention. And on, um, community violence–
Hmm.
There’s been a spike in New Brunswick in this area on, um, death by guns, violence. And we– we are a member of a coalition under the Robert Wood Johnson, uh, Barnabas Health, uh, um, Violence Intervention group. We’re working with them as one of the seven federally funded programs. And now we’re going to start to– it’s intervention, and we’re going to start to work on prevention. So, that’s another big one.
Hmm. Yeah, so, you seem to have had a really full life– full of advocacy work, activism, um, I don’t know– how would you describe your life? If you were to summarize your life in a few sentences.
Oh, I– I, uh, I think my life is– is pretty– I’m– I’m content. My life has– is good. I, um, as I mentioned to you, I love the arts, I love music. Um, uh, we went– we saw Stephanie Mills and The Whispers the other day. I’m a big Whispers fan and she was just amazing [laughs].
Well, I’m a fan too.
Yeah, so we went to that. Uh, Bruce and I will go to so many concerts. We are big jazz fans. And new, uh, there is a Hubcity jazz festival every year. They had one last year. It was, you know, uh, COVID compliant. But we’ve been– we– we will travel all over for a jazz festival. So, that’s fun for me, going to a play. Just a dinner with my family. We– we do the birthday dinners together. We’ll meet, um, my son-in-law is an accountant for restaurants. So we get to go to– he’ll, uh, some cool places in this city to– to eat. And we miss that, you know. It’s– it’s just been a tough and we– we go in Newark.
Hmm. So–
I think that my life is, um, is– is with purpose. I have a purpose. I feel like I’ve had a purposeful life. I’ve been able to– to give back. But I also begin to look at where I need to also have self-care and take care of my needs. And that’s sometimes you have to– when you’re in the act of this life, you give so much. And you have to, uh, begin to have quality of life. Like, you know, I’m reading a little bit more. I was– I had stopped reading because you’re running around trying to get things done.
[1:12:14]
Hmm. Yeah. So, before we end, is there anything that you would like to share, or expand upon, that we did not cover? Or, do you have anything else you want to express?
Let’s see, because I talked about my mother. Yeah. I think she’s gone seven years now.
Hmm.
That was another time when the time stopped. You kind of like, um– but then you have all of the good memories, some funny. She was really funny and sarcastic. But she would’ve– would prob– she would’ve been all over [laughs]. And that’s where I became a, uh, because she read the newspaper. She, uh, crossword puzzles, but that’s where I got a lot of the reading, because she always read the newspaper. And I had to, because, um, my grandmother had– I really think she had a fifth grade education. So I would read the paper for her. And her numbers. So she won the– the daily numbers, so I would– that’s when I really started reading, uh, a lot of the information. And, you know, I, um, the great thing at my job at J&J is the philanthropic piece. The– the things that we used to do. And, um, issues that you could tackle. You would have a co-worker that said the most racist thing and you could say something. I was– I said, “Where did you get that from?” You know, you have to challenge some people and open their eyes. Because sometimes, um, you’re the only black person there. And [sighs] they discount– do you know what I mean? They–
Yeah.
They think it’s okay. So, there was a lot of times I had to, uh, that anger. You know, sometimes that anger, you, um, deal with it. You know, the black– they said the angry black woman. I’m not an angry black woman.
Yeah, so were– do you think you were very affected by trying to– to get away from those stereotypes? Do you feel like that kept you from expressing yourself sometimes, because you didn’t–
Sometimes you had to pick your battles, but I, um, I would pick my battles. And sometimes you– it would just build– it would build– things would just build.
Mhm.
But you– you’ve been put in places and, you know, I know, speaking to other women. [Sighs] Our challenges and– and promotional opportunities. And I see a lot more. The good thing is, at J&J, the, um, I was happy to see because I participated in a lot of, um, conversations about, uh, equity for– for black people. And they’re starting– they’re finally starting to turn around, but it’s– when I see the young people that I mentored there, they’re moving up. Because many left. It’s the same thing that we see outside.
Hmm.
You know, all of the challenges, and I’m sure you– you experienced.
Yeah, definitely. Hmm. So, this was really beautiful. A beautiful, beautiful conversation.
Thank you.
I’m so thankful.
And as I think about things, I’ll send you a note because I– I have to– to look– look back on a couple of things now.
Yeah, you can, definitely. And we can, um, update that information. So I’m going to pause the recording.
Okay.
Um, I’ll just push stop.
[Unclear dialogue]
[Laughter]
[Overlapping dialogue]
Okay. Well–
[1:16:33]
Can you tell us a little more about your mother and the experience, um, that black women have? Um–
Uh, you can see, um, [pause]. She was a very strong woman, very determined. You know, I– I told you about her getting her, um, GED, getting out of that hotel, graduating from business school. Uh, she became, uh, a– she worked at City Bank, um, executive offices. So, she had like twenty-five years. She retired early. They, uh, started, uh– and she was financially set. So, that was a good model for me, how she was astute. But, um, the family, the dependence– the emotional dependence on her. She did not always want to be the matriarch of the family. She, um– I think sometime, and I found out, uh, after the– after she passed away, you find out things. Things she said to me and I really wasn’t listening, but your eyes are open. When I, um, essentially, became that matriarch, which I’m not– I chose not to. I love my family, but, you know, I’m there for you, but you’re not going to walk all over me. And I found– I just found out so many things, when she passed away, that I, my listening, I missed. I missed some of that. But she, um, was really a remarkable, beautiful woman. I was the complete op– I was a little more conservative. She, um, she was very jazzy, um, shy. Um, she had maybe one or two boyfriends, but she was solitary– really connected to the family. But the family sometime didn’t appreciate her love, you know, and her support.
Yeah.
You know, and I– yeah, you know, so hug your mom. Appreciate her. Um, and I’m glad, you know, when she passed, we was on the greatest terms. You know, that’s the whole– we was– everytime her last– I had her voice messages– she’d always say, “I love you, Debbie.” It was Deborah when I was in trouble [laughs], when I did something wrong. When I heard Deborah, oh my gosh [laughs]. And she did not play. I was on, um, many punishments [laughs] from staying out. Because I was the earl– I always had to leave, you know, it got dark and I had to come in the house. And, you know, [sighs] I would just– I said, “Well, I’ll hang out a little bit because I’m going to be in for the weekend.” [laughs]. You know, very strict, but I appreciate that. And– and that’s how I was with– you know, Bruce and I, with our kids. Firm, but with love.
Hmm. Hmm. Beautiful, beautiful.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you.