Manu Sabbaiah details his time in Kerala, Mumbai, and Singapore and recalls memories of his family and friends. He discusses how his resourcefulness and risk taking has helped him advance at work.
“If you don’t take that call– take that call out of your comfort zone to take a risk, it will be very, very difficult for you to grow.”
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More [2]: Imre Bangha, “Was Hindi Really Created by India’s British Colonial Rulers?,” The Wire, September 12, 2020.
Learn More [3]: Pritam Bordoloi, “India’s Project Bhashini: Breaking the Language Barrier with AI,” Analytics India Magazine, July 14, 2022.
Learn More [4]: “The History of the Hindi Language in India,” The Superprof Blog - UK, March 5, 2023.
Learn More: Doranne Jacobson, “Indian Society and Ways of Living,” Asia Society, 2004.
Learn More [2]: Shawrina Salam, “What Is Toxic Masculinity And How Does It Affect Men?,” Feminism in India, January 10, 2022.
Learn More [3]: Shweta Desai, “Gulabi Gang: India’s Women Warriors,” Al Jazeera, March 4, 2014.
Learn More [4]: Hannah Clugston, “How Young Indian Men Are Challenging Toxic Masculinity,” Huck, June 6, 2018.
Learn More: Subrat Sharma, “Decoding India’s Brain Drain: Where Did It Go Wrong?,” Statecraft, March 10, 2023.
Learn More [3]: “Indian Students Abroad Most Likely to Stay Back in Developed Countries: Report,” The Indian Express, October 14, 2022.
Learn More [4]: Biman Mukherji, “Can India’s Plan to Allow Foreign University Campuses Help Retain Local Talent?,” South China Morning Post, January 16, 2023.
Learn More [2]: “Indians Are Now the Largest Ethnic Group in Secaucus, Parsippany in New Jersey,” American Bazaar Online (blog), December 8, 2016.
Learn More [3]: Cristina Rojas, “Asian Populations Surge in Neighboring West Windsor, Plainsboro, Montgomery Communities,” nj.com, June 13, 2011.
Learn More [4]: “The Official Website of The Township of Parsippany, NJ: Fields and Facility Current Status,” Parsippany-Troy Hills, accessed October 29, 2023.
TRANSCRIPT 1
Interview conducted by Dan Swern
Parsippany, New Jersey
November 18, 2022
Transcription by Allison Baldwin
Annotations by Lucy Gilch
[Beginning of Recording One]
[00:00:00]
Today is Friday, November 18, 2022. It is 3:29pm. This is Dan Swern and I am here at 10 Birchplace in Parsippany and I am interviewing–
Manu Sabbaiah
Manu, thank you so much for sharing your time with me today and your story and, uh, whenever you’re ready. If you want me to stop at any time for a glass of water or to go to the bathroom, you’re more than welcome to. But, please feel free to start from the beginning.
Okay. The beginning is interesting, right, because– well because when you say beginning I am thinking from the time I have my conscious memory, right? So, if I, uh, if I want to talk about my life history, I think that’s probably what you’re looking for. My life from a conscious perspective, I would say my earliest memory is when I fell down from a tree and I was probably five or six years old at that time. And as I was sitting in this particular tree at the back of my grandparent’s house which was a mango grove that they have, there was a mango tree that was probably about ten feet high. And I was sitting in the–
So I used to love comic books. I mean, in India you get comic books. And, so I used to– I was sitting in the top of the tree which was ten, twelve feet high and I was reading because it was beautiful, sunny, and warm. That’s why the memory is so vivid, right, and some branch broke and I fell down, down on my back, almost twelve feet from the top. And I clearly remember, I mean, I blacked out. Obviously I don’t remember blacking out but I do remember waking up and feeling this particular dull, achy, sweet pain. [laughter]
And then I couldn’t walk. I was lying there for I don’t know how long, and then I actually kinda somehow stood up, and I stretched, and I walked off, and I didn’t feel anything. Fast forward thirty years. I have been having back pain. Chronic back pain for the last fifteen years. For no apparent reason. The only thing that I can think about is going back to this particular incident. So, that is what I would think that I have the most vivid memories of, that particular pain starting in life, but I digress.
[00:02:50]
So, starting, uh, I was born in India. In a good hospital. I was born in I think it was called [unclear] which was one of the good hospitals in my neck of the woods. I was a c–section. A c–section is where they cut the stomach and you come out. And at that time, forty-nine years ago, that was a big deal. My mom used to tell that she was probably one of the first few people who had c–section. At that time, right? It was considered very dangerous at that time. So, my dad was very upset about it. My mom, I mean, not mom, he was very upset about me. He apparently didn’t even come and pick me up for one week because he said he thought that I did something wrong to tear his wife’s stomach out, but then obviously he was madly in love with me too, right? [laughter]. So, from then on, I’m two childs right. I am the eldest one. My sister is two years younger than me. She also had a c–section. She came out after that. So, we were– we were, I would say, in a lower, middle class family because my father had a very respectable and a very solid job. But when he was young, he had– he tried to dabble his hands on some business, doing some business, right, so he started to– started a business of selling furnitures. A furniture shop. And obviously he was not good at business. So that shop, he actually started, he bought furniture paying interest and he could not sell it as quickly as he would have liked, and so the profit gain was not matching up, so he kind of had a loss in that. Then he dabbled in—he’s an engineer by mind—so he dabbled in occupational engineering, and he was exceptionally good. Some of the buildings that he built with his group of partners is still there. But the challenge with him is that, being this nice guy, he never asked for money for the work that he did. He was a contractor in terms of occupation. So, people would use his services and then they would build the houses and go on. But he would never get the money. So, so, long story short, we had a lot of debt. My dad had a solid job but he got into a lot of debt so–
I think I was about nine or ten, my dad got actually same job, but he got moved to Mumbai. So I am from a place called Kerala which is the Southernmost tip of India. And it’s beautiful. If you see India there’s like a, I would say like a V, right? So, the bottom of the V is where Kerala is. Kerala is a beautiful place. Kerala is considered one of the top honeymoon destinations.
[00:06:00]
In the world. Right. So, it’s really beautiful mountains. And rain, and when it rains it’s really beautiful. For that area it is really beautiful because it is all lush green. And the people are all educated. Kerala, the place where I come from is one hundred percent literate state, so the culture is very different from other parts in India. So, we were there for the better part of my childhood, like nine/ten years. Then Dad got a better opportunity that was better pay, so we had to move to Northern India in Mumbai. Not completely Northern. That area is called Bombay. I still remember the train journey. It used to take around three hours—three days—to go from Thiruvananthapuram to Mumbai. And so I used to–
Obviously, when I went to Mumbai it took some getting used to because I did not know the local language. Hindi, even though it was a national language, at that time it was predominantly spoken by North Indians. Right? So, in South India, which is Kerala, Hindi was not that prominent. Now it is, but, so at that time I did not know Hindi. It took some time to adjust, so I got bullied a lot, but you survive through that.
[00:07:20]
But coming– another thing from coming from Kerala is, um, it was a very tough environment, coming from Kerala. The childhood was tough. Not because of home. Home was awesome. My mom and dad were pretty educated, they treated me with love. But the area that we used to live had a lot of bullies, so you grew up tough. Unlike my wife, she comes from this place where it’s like the Stepford Sisters, right? The very manicured area. Her father was coming from a very nice place. She had a very easy childhood. And even now, I would say she has a very good life. She might refute it. But she doesn’t have too much stress. But I can handle stress and I have taken stress. From very young too.
So, so, coming from Thiruvananthapuram, I was able to handle that part in Mumbai. It was tough. India is tough. For kids. India is a tough place to grow up because– not physically, I mean physically yes it is there, but I think morally it is a tough environment to grow. If I compare that with the kids here, it’s not– the kids are a very nice bunch. At least from what I can see. My kids would probably tell more. But I think the bullying in India is much more. So, again I went through all of that, but I don’t think it affected me that much because I had a good mom in my house, so I don’t think that was a big deal.
[00:09:12]
So, coming back to Mumbai. We began to settle down in Mumbai. And it was– my dad was just, it was a new job for him too, right? And I actually kind of, what do you call it, uh, I kind of, uh, got into a new student environment. I was not that good at studies, though. I still feel that I am not that good at studies because I actually feel that I have a reading issue. It’s either dyslexia or ADD, right? It’s probably something that I am feeling, but thinking about it now when I am 49/50, not 50 yet, 49, I think I could have– I could have been diagnosed with ADD, I would say that I think I am probably the one percentile in India. Or at least the two percentile in US in terms of [unclear]. I was horrible at studies. I was horrible. My dad used to be so upset that I wasn’t even average. Compared to that my kids are way way better. They are in the 90–95 percentile, but I used to be in the 35–40 percentile. And I am here telling my kids that you need to be studying, you know, but anyway.
So, I had a tough time at school because I was very much not good at studies but I was very much into sports. I loved sports. And I’m a pretty outgoing person too. I like friends. I like making friends. But the thing was, because I could not do well in studies, and because my dad was traveling, I used to change schools a lot. I changed a lot of schools. Turned around– so I was in Mumbai for almost ten years. And I learned, like, three or four languages. Hindi is one. I could speak Hindi. Marati because Marati was the local Mumbai language. And then my dad’s, there was kind of a need for dad to send Mommy and me and my sister back to Thiruvananthapuram. The need was because we kind of wanted to settle down in Thiruvananthapuram at that time, so Dad sent mom and the kids first to go settle down and he would just wrap up [in Mumbai] and come back.
[00:12:15]
So, we kind of, instead of coming back to Thiruvananthapuram we kind of stayed in my dad’s house. Which was in, a bit north of Kerala it was in Tamil Nadu. It’s a beautiful place. It was actually where my grandfather came and settled down. He actually came from somewhere north. Northern Tamil Nadu area. He was pretty influential. He was a very rich guy at that time. He had a mansion, built a mansion, at that time. That was the first house in that area, that entire area, that had a roof that was not made of leaves. It was actually made of clay. It was called Odu. So, my grandfather was in the jewelry business so he was pretty well off. But he lost all of his wealth because he had a weakness, which I think I also have. It’s the weakness with females [laughter] so apparently he used to have a lot of affairs at that time and he was in his prime. My grandma, she tells me so many interesting stories about it. So, in India at that time, right, there used to be a river so they used to go take a bath at the river and come back. The bathrooms and lavatories were not inside the house. They were outside the house. At least at that place. And there was no taking a shower. They would go to the local river, take a shower there, wash goods, bring them back.
[Editor’s Note: Tamil Nadu, located at the southernmost tip of the Indian subcontinent, is considered India's most industrialized state. It is host to a wide variety of industries, including textiles, automobile, cement, banking, leather tanning, and tourism. The state is also home to 4 UNESCO World Heritage Sites. Manu and his family spent time here before relocating to Thiruvananthapuram.]
So, one of the stories that I can recall now that my grandma was telling me– my grandma and I were very close, right. Very close, and she was telling me this. And my grandpa had passed away by then. Had already died. I had never seen my grandfather. But he was apparently a very handsome guy and he was, um, so my grandma went to the river to take a bath.
[00:14:16]
And obviously they used to come back with a lot of these wet clothes in their hands. My grandma was telling me, “Dude I came back from the river. I come back from taking a shower, come back into the house and this guy (my grandfather) he was in a very awkward place. I was like, ‘ why was he awkward?’” And in India at that time, even though the house was mansion, it wasn’t like it wasn’t a single door like this. It wasn’t a single door. It was two doors. And he was very awkward. And when she opened the doors she found out that there were two women behind both of those doors. She said that she was so pissed at him. She just threw the wet clothes on him and beat the crap out of him.
So, my point is right. At that time, at least in that culture, at that time, it was having an additional girl or girls over there, over your wife, was considered as a manly thing. Now, and I think it skipped a generation, my dad was excellent. He was a very, very decent straight guy. I won’t say that I am as, uh, noble as my dad, but–
So he was, uh, my grandfather was like that, my point is that he was very rich. He was very well off. He was a very good businessman, but I think he lost a lot of money in this because there instances where people who are farmers, who are doing, who are not well off, they are doing, they would bring wives to him and he would just write land off to them, like ‘okay’ after being with me for a month or, half acre of land for you. So, he had a lot of money. He was pretty well off right. He lost all of it. As of now the only thing that is left is that house, the mansion. [unintelligible] So, that’s in my name now. I own it now. I have given it up for rent right now, but, uh, so my dad didn’t inherit that much money other than this house and then my dad actually moved to Thiruvananthapuram. So, when we came back from Mumbai we went and stayed at that house: me and my mom. My mom hated the place. Obviously because it was the in-laws place but also because nobody was there. Only my grandma was there. My mom didn’t like that place.
[00:17:05]
Also Mom was coming from Mumbai which was like a little bit metropolitan and she wanted her kids to be brought up in a bit more city life, but this was a village.
And then one day what happened was that, I used to obviously gel very well with the local crowd and go on with them, right. And then one day I was sitting here and one day– so I used to go– there used to be buffaloes, okay? So, we used to go, there used to be this, my mom used to go, used to come from a Tuesday temple. And me and my friend, me and all of the local boys, we’re all into herding buffalo so I was actually sitting on top of the buffalo after we had taken the buffalo to wash in the pond nearby. Me– I was sitting on top of a buffalo. There were buffaloes all around. My friends were walking along with me. My mom saw that. She saw that and she said, “This is not happening. I am not going to bring my son. [unclear].” She came back and she called my dad right away and she said, “You know what? I am not staying here anymore. I am moving to Thiruvananthapuram with you and she packed the bags the next day. And obviously Thiruvananthapuram is a city. It is the capital city of Kerala. Kerala is the state.
Then I did my schooling and college in Thiruvananthapuram. My first job was in Thiruvananthapuram. And then I actually moved. My first job was interesting because, my first job was– so as soon as I finished my college education then I got my post graduate diploma. I actually had a company from Singapore come and interview and apparently I did well so they speaked to me and they said, “Okay, let’s go to Singapore within the next month.”
[Editor’s Note: Manu spent the majority of his childhood in Thiruvananthapuram, the capital of Kerala, which is located at the southernmost tip of the Indian subcontinent. The city's name can be broken down to mean "the city of the Holy Anantha." Ananthan is a cosmic serpent with a thousand heads whose sculpture appears in the Sri Padmanabhaswamy Temple in Thiruvananthapuram. As Manu describes, Kerala's literacy rate is the highest of all India's states at 93.19%.]
[00:19:00]
But my grandma was not feeling well and I was taking care of my grandma and I was very close with my grandma. At that time she was around 88 years old. She was not sick but she was actually weak. She was not sick or anything, but she was a fragile lady. So, she used to be, we used to be morally supportive of each other. And then she became bedridden during that period, so I used to clean her up and take care of her in that way. And she told me, “Manu, don’t go, if you go I’ll die.” And I was like, “Okay.” And I told the Singapore company that I can’t come. I might need six months or so. And the company said, “No problem. We just– we don’t want you to not be part of the company. We want you to be part of the company. We pay you to be part of the company, but you look at the operations in Thiruvananthapuram itself.” And I said okay, so for six months I did that. And I actually did it for almost a year, right. Because of my grandma. And after that, my mom and dad were, like, pissed, they said, “You’re destroying your life. You had an opportunity to go to Singapore, you’re 20, 21, 22 years old. We don’t want to be–”
So I finally convinced my grandma and she was okay with it. At the end of the day she just wanted the best for me and she said okay. And then I actually left Thiruvananthapuram to go to Singapore. And again, talking about my dad and my mom, in my house– I mean compared to the current lifestyle there, at that time, as I said I was brought up tough. I didn’t have, even though I know that my parents and everybody loves me, you know, the “atta boy” was not a big popular emotion that used to happen in India. At least in my house, at that time. It was all tough love. My dad never appreciated it. If I did something, my dad would be like, “Okay. What’s the big deal?” [dog barking] Can you pause it? I just wanna–
[00:21:07]
[End of Recording One]
[Beginning of Recording Two]
[00:00:00]
Yeah, so how did I leave actually? How did I leave it? So, yeah, appreciation does not come easily into my family.
I see my daughter coming.
So, I still remember that particular time when I was going to Singapore on the job, right, so– I think it’s a little bit tough for my dad to kind of accept and appreciate it.
[00:00:32]
[End of Recording Two]
[Beginning of Recording Three]
[00:00:00]
So, as I was saying, it was difficult for parents, at that time, to really express their affection or appreciation. Unlike now where I am all the time saying, “atta boy,” and praising my son and daughters, kids, and everybody because I think, like I said, it was at that time, it was like tough love. You just don’t–
So, the first that I actually felt that there was some kind of affection from my dad was when I was– so I was going to Singapore, and I was on the plane, and I checked in, and I came back, and at that time you could check in and come back out. Right? They didn’t– the rules were not that strict when I was 20/22 years old. So, at that time, 22 years old, it was probably 1995 or so. It was not as strict. The airports were not as strict as all of this, so you could check in, put all of your bags on the flight and then come back. Say goodbye to your family and come back to the gate. So, I was doing this. I checked in, and I came back, and I was getting ready to go, and my dad was like, “Good boy,” so I could see that he was, like, choking up and eyes watering and he was like, “I want to let you know that you did good.” [laughter].
That is the biggest appreciation he has done. Through 22 years of my life. [laughter] “I just want you to know that you did good.” I was like okay. [laughter]. Then my mom and my sister were back behind him and they were like, “Yeah, good job.” But if you compare that to, like, what we do to our kids now, it’s like, what do you call it? They shower or grovel like, “Oh, thank you so much.”
So, I went to Singapore. Singapore, I would say was where I actually, nah, I wouldn’t say Singapore, I think even in India, right after I graduated or during the graduation I was–
Yes, there was one incident I would say that is probably something to know for, so I am going to rewind back if you don’t mind. So before I went to Singapore, one of the jobs– so during the graduation I actually graduated, like I said, I sucked at studies, I was not really good. So, even in college I was very well at sports. I used to be in college, cricket team and hockey and politics. So, I was very interested in that. Also, I had a lot of interesting girlfriends. I had a lot of girlfriends. So, in college I was popular in that sense. But in studies I was really bad, really bad. So, my dad was noticing this and he was really upset and I was always in political because in India college is–
Political parties. Political parties would have their smaller wings. In colleges [unclear] so for example, if you had a communist party, they would have a communist wing of it for the college itself. Similarly the ruling party would have a smaller part, a youth wing at the college. So I used to be really active in all of that, and my dad was not happy about that. Some of these parties used to be violent also, because these college kids, they can be easily manipulated. The people involved in these two parties and they would just get–
When we are in college we are 18, 10, 16, 17 years old. You are not thinking straight. So, there were a lot of instances where we would have battles within the college itself, so I was used to be very active with that, part of sports, nothing with studies, so.
[00:04:05]
So when I graduated I got one of the worst marks. Right? Normally in India, anything over 60 percent is considered okay. I got 45 or 50 percent of marks in the end. And that is really bad. You wouldn’t get into good colleges with that. So, my dad was so upset. He just kicked me out of the house. Because my dad was a very good student and a pretty smart guy. So, he kicked me out of the house and I was like, I was on the road and he was like, “Get out of my house, I just don’t want you to be here. “ So I stepped out and obviously I didn’t want to go to any relatives place, so I was outside, and my neighbor who was actually a film director, but not the commercial film director, art film director, documentaries, his name was K.K.Chandra. I think he passed already but he saw me, saw me and heard the commotion and all and said come into the house so I actually went inside his house and I stayed with him for two weeks. That time he said, he and I actually became good friends. He was a little bit older. At that time I think he was 40 or 50 years old.
And he said, he introduced me to one guru. His name was Seshen. He was not a guru, per se, but he was an accomplished person, right? But he was also a guy who was very spiritual and meditation and all of that and his name was Diya Seshen [spelling].
Seshen. He was, he had a big long white beard, all of that, a very accomplished person. He took me under and he was giving training on entrance exams, like you know how we have SAT and all? There used to be this particular place where they used to teach us prep courses. So there, Seshen was teaching and he used to be teaching on meditation and how to become a better human being and that kind of thing.
[00:06:20]
I used to intern for all of them? So, that I would say was one of the most changing part of my life, so that, he– so then I started to meditate. I was 16 or 17 years old. I started to meditate every day because of Seshen’s influence. And I remember one incident, this girl that was part of the class, this beautiful girl, I think her name was [unclear], she was– I was eyeing her, right, obviously, and I think we became good friends. And one fine day she comes to me and she says that she is getting engaged and I am like, “How could you get engaged?” Then she tells me that her boyfriend, the guy she is engaged, it was an arranged marriage for her– he was studying at IIT, IIT is one of the top colleges in India. So, she was like I am getting engaged to this guy who is studying at the IIT and my parents are– so I was devastated because I really thought this girl was it. I loved this girl. And all of a sudden she’s with this guy, a good character. I was upset.
So, Seshen sees me sometimes. Obviously he sees me because he knows my class of ten to twenty people, and he saw that I was upset so I told him. I was comfortable telling him that. So, I told him that and he was like, “Okay,” and he told me something that was very profound and I still use it. I tell my kids. He said something. He said, “You should deserve before you desire.”
Simple sermon. And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “Just think about it and you will figure it out.” [laughter] So, I was like, okay, deserve, maybe I don’t deserve this girl who is [laughter] before I desire. I always, even now I think about it. If I want something I have to deserve it, so buying a car, right. I have an expensive sports car. I would not buy this if I don’t deserve. So, I have been using that all through my life and career, even my promotion. I like to think about it. When I am asking my boss, do I deserve the promotion and then make that call. So, that was one incident. That was important.
[00:08:59]
[End of Recording 3]
[Beginning of Recording 4]
[00:00:00]
So, yeah, so after this particular incident, it just shook me a little bit. After this conversation and him mentioning this to me, so I did do a lot of introspection, and I still remember those days when I would go through this, this, uh, exercise of meditation and I felt that– as I was saying, I was a very very average student, so slowly, and I have written a lot of entrance exams even for IIT, and I would never get through any of this. But I think from that, for 16 years onwards I think that I changed. I think I felt myself become a bit more cognitively focused, I would say. And, then moving on I decided to do better in preparation for my entrance exam, so I am actually in the IT space. I started my career in the IT space. So, I have my diploma and my post graduate diploma in computer science. Right. So, the first job that I got was also, obviously, in the technology space. And that was a mainframe application at that time. There was a huge demand due to the Y2K push. Y2K’s, I don’t know if you remember in the year 2000 there was, like, a boom and that the whole world was going to come down because of–
So I was in a very lucky, I would say, I was very lucky to be in that space where, even though I didn’t have a very high level of what do you call it? I didn’t come from a very high college per se, but I was able to sneak in because of the huge demand of this IT space at that time. So, anybody who could spell IT, they’d just bring you in. [laughter]. So, I was lucky there.
[00:02:15]
So, then what happened was, I got into the computer science space. I got this job in Singapore, right. And now we’re back to the airport. So, I come out of the airport and I land in Singapore, and I still remember distinctly that– that, at that time I landed in Singapore and I had never flown on a flight before. The first time I am in a flight and I land in Singapore and it’s like around a three and a half hour flight. I land in the China airport in Singapore and I see this place and it’s beautiful, right. It’s clean like squeaky clean. Coming from Thiruvananthapuram. I mean, Kerala is clean compared to a lot of places, but still this place was, like, squeaky clean. They have, in Singapore, they wash Singapore with water that they don’t have. They import water from Malaysia and they wash the freaking buildings, so I was actually, like, shocked to see this. I felt like it was a painting. And what shocks me is that I had come here and I had heard that the police there is very strict, and all of my friends were like, don’t. In Thiruvananthapuram and Kerala you can pick fights and interacting with police, and you see how corrupt these guys are and try to sneak your way through, so I interacted with the police a lot in my youth. But these guys were very strict. I know they were very strict.
So, I land in Singapore. I– they were driving me to my, uh, uh, my house, which the company has provided in a place called [unclear], and I’m going in, and there were some cops, and I was like, “Oh shit.” There were like three or four cops so that’s what I’m seeing first, the cops, so I’m like what the heck happened? Did somebody get murdered or something like that? So, I asked the guy. He’s like, “Don’t be scared. Don’t worry about it. They’re investigating something.” And I was like, “Okay. Investigating what?” He was hearing that somebody was throwing some trash from the top down so that police are coming and investigating it. I’m like, in India, if something like that happened, if somebody throws trash from the top, these people, local people, would go to their house and just yell at them and that’s it. There was an investigation, there was the cops there, so I was finding that very amusing. [laughter]. Then I go to the room and it was on the twentieth floor. This place was really good, so I was on the twentieth floor and there was a small balcony and it was late in the night.
[00:05:00]
And I saw this landscape with beautiful lights, Manhattan-type lights, and I was like, “Damn I love this place, and I’m going to stay here.” And the reason I say this, I’m going to stay here, is because this company where they take you, they are primarily, [unclear] shoppers, so they hire people from other places at a very cheap rate and then they place you in companies in Singapore at a higher rate saying that you have experience. I don’t have experience. I just came out of college, right. I really don’t have experience. So, I’m coming here, so these companies also know, they’ll say, they give you one month. They’ll say, okay we will evaluate him for one month, him or anybody for that matter, and if you don’t like him, we’ll just let him go and have him go back from where he came from. So, that is why I was saying, I need to stay here. I love this place and I was like wow.
And at the same time I was also thinking about my grandma. My grandma said to me when I was doing that, “If you go I’ll die,” and I said that, “No, nothing will happen to you.” So I come here and what happens is, so first day, it goes like that. The next day I am supposed to go to the office. I'm going to the office, and great office, and I have never been in an office in my entire life, obviously. It’s not like now where kids here, they go to an office, they have internship, they know the corporate world, so I had no idea. I had been in college and then put into a job. And the expectation when you go to this job is that you have worked in another place for three years and you really know how to do this. And they are evaluating you. I still remember the day and walking into the place and I had no idea what to do.
[00:07:00]
They gave me an idea and I went inside. So, my boss comes. She’s a short, Chinese lady and her name is [unclear] so she comes and she goes, “Oh, you are the meat, huh? You are the new meat. Come, come.” [laughter] And before I go into that I hear from my management that some of my local, new peers, who are also part of the consulting group, were coming to the company, but this lady is one of the toughest evaluators and boss, right. Because she had just fired three people from India, and so she, and I am the fourth guy going in, so you are a done deal. You don’t know anything. You are going to be screwed. You are screwed. And I was already feeling screwed. [laughter]. So, I go to the– this– and I can see why she has the reputation she has, she was tough. You could see it in her eyes that she was like, “Okay, I know what you’re doing here. I am not wasting time with you.” You know, that kind of thing. So, she takes me to a seat which is directly opposite to her room. So she has the room right there and I am sitting right opposite her, and so she turns to the computer and her first word is that, “I am sure you know how to turn on a computer, right?” I’m like, “Of course I know.” And she’s like, “How do you turn it on?” And I’m like, “You switch it on.”
And she was like, “Okay, now log in.” And she gave me a paper. To be honest I didn’t know how to log in because I didn’t know what screen is coming up or anything, right, because I didn’t know. Even though I knew of computers, there was no laptop, there was no– we had a lab in my college which was three people used one computer. In my lab, in there, so this was a completely different computer. So, she asked me to log in. My first reaction was, “I need to go to the bathroom.” And she’s like, “So, soon dude? You have to go to the bathroom? You just came in.” I said, “Yeah.” So, then I just hurried and she said, “I am going to time you. Come back in five minutes.” I said, “Yeah.”
So, I went the bathroom and there were a couple of these guys who were all working there already. So, some Indian guys, right? So, I said can you come and, so one of these guys came with me and there were a bunch of these guys standing in the bathroom and they were trying to make fun of me, right. So, I was like okay, so I said, “Dude, how do I log in?” And they were like, “You don’t know how to log in?” And I was like, “Nah.” And they told me exactly what to do. They told me just get through the day today and we will see [laughter].
[00:10:00]
And I had a reaction. She was mocking me. She was like, “Now you know how to log in, right?” And I was like, “Yeah, I knew how to log in.” She was like, “You didn’t know how to log in before.” Then she gave me a paper and said “Log in and start typing this computer program.” It was a computer program. She said, “I want it by the end of the day today. I want to see that program done.” So, somehow I actually logged in and started typing and tried to mock something up based on what other people were– I used to go to the bathroom every one to two hours to get some feedback from guys. I would come back and I somehow got through that day. She could see the– she was, somehow I was able to impress her because, even though I was scared like shit, I was– I had this– I had some mischievous angle to that, which she kind of thought was okay compared to some other people who were scared and what not. I would react to her and she was okay with that. She thought I was funny and, you know, she thought I was tolerable and that she could teach me. So, first day gone, second day, I went back and I made friends with a bunch of these guys who were really good, and I used to go to their house, get bullied like crazy because they would not want to teach me. Right. They would want to come back from this work, take a beer and drink, so I would be like, “Dude, just help me with– help me with this.” So, I would actually get beer for them from the kitchen and use them, but we became great friends and are still great friends, but that was kind of difficult to get them to help me with the work because I don’t know crap, right? So, I winded up. This was a struggle, right. It was actually difficult. So, within one to two weeks I was able to do these jobs, whatever [my boss] was telling me, and me and [my boss] and we became good friends, and at the end of the day I was not fired after one month.
[00:12:11]
And I was– one of the important things I felt was, first time out of house, right? So even my college education I was living in the house, I had never moved out of the house also, I was moved out of the house so I was homesick like crazy. That was one angle. I was so much away from home. And at that time, calling India was very, very expensive. It was almost one dollar per minute. One dollar. One Singapore dollar per minute, so the only time I would talk is every Saturday morning at 10 o’clock, so I would talk every week once and that time we would talk for twenty minutes. And that time, twenty minutes you need to check everything off so it was like a rush, and I was, I still remember those days when we used to do that and it was– so– so two weeks over, three weeks over, I continued to do my job and– but the only thing is I never heard from my grandma, so I asked my dad, where is my grandma every week. Where is grandma? I want to talk to her. Every week, when I called it would be grandma is sleeping.
But after two or three months, I realized my grandma died within one week after I left the house. From the time I came to Singapore, my grandma passed away within the first week and Dad, my Dad didn’t tell me. My friend who had gone to India, when he came back, he told me, I had asked what had happened to my grandma. Then he had realized that nobody had told me that, and that’s how I had found out that my grandma had passed away, so I was pretty devastated and I was really upset with my parents. But the rationale that they didn’t tell me was that the first month was important for me to be focused on the work and everything, and they didn’t want me to be distracted so they didn’t tell me.
So, that moved on, so Singapore was good, right? I had a lot of fun in Singapore. Because, after the initial three or four months of heavy duty working, then I figured it out, the whole thing, and within two months, I was rocking it. So, I got to do a little bit more fun and Singapore at that time was an interesting place for a young guy like me, right? Because I come from India, I was 23 years old at that time and Singapore as a country was just growing and maturing into more of a developed place, right? So, buildings were coming up and everything was coming up. Even the people there. We were seeing that professionals coming from India were much better groups than local people. So, there used to be a lot of these local girls
[00:15:08]
Singapore in the 80s, there were a lot of these girls, kids who would want to hitch themselves with Indian guys, so there used to be a lot of these forums that were exclusively for that to kind of matchmaking, for that, you know, online matchmaking, it was not that, was not there. At that time. So, there used to be, I remember one incident that was very interesting where one of my friends said, “Hey there is this particular event that is happening and there is this particular matchmaking thing that is going on,” and I said, “Sure. Let’s go.” Saturday we went and it was actually in– in one of the hotels, the top floor of a hotel and so there would be a lot of girls there, a lot of guys there. It was an event, just like this, right? Speed dating. But it was different. It was not like a one on one dating kind of thing, so there was the event and they make sure that they bring all these people and they just mingle. So they had some games to kind of break the ice kind of thing. So there was one game.
So there was this girl that I really liked. She was beautiful and everything so I thought okay, I have to go over and talk to her. But she was pretty intimidating. She was too pretty and I was just [unclear] so I looked at her and she looked at me, but then what happened was the game started. The game was that, there was this host, he, uh, he asked for couples to come just one guy and one girl, any random, and he just matched them up. So, I was matched, I was hoping I would be matched with this girl, that would be the easy way out of me going and talking to her. Because I’m already matched that she’s stuck with me so I will be able to talk [laughter], so I was hoping, but that didn’t happen. She was matched with some other guy too. So, the game is, the host will give you these clips, and the girl who’s there will blindfold herself and put the clips on your chest, right? Chest or shirt, your body, right? And then she will actually have to pick it up after that. And I was thinking it was the same girl, the girl who put it will be picking up, but apparently not.
So, what I did– what was– what I did, somehow it hit me that this was going to happen, so I told the girl, “Put all the ten clips that you have on my pocket.” She was going to go all over my stomach and everything and I said, “No, no. Don’t do that.” So, the girl put everything in my pocket. The end game is who gets all of the clips or maximum clips gets a date. You send them out or to some place. So that is the price for that.
[00:18:00]
So, now this girl has put everything in, so I know, right? So now they rotate the girls. Luckily for me, this girl came [laughter]. So luckily this girl came. Obviously she is blindfolded. She doesn’t know who. So, he comes and the bell goes on and I tell her all you have to do is raise your right hand, go to the top, you will find all the clips there, just take all the clips in that area. Obviously, we won. We both won. We went on a date at the place. We got a date and we had a great time at that place. We kind of dated for almost like five or six months and then grew out of it so, as I said, I had a lot of friends, a lot of girlfriends in Singapore. It was my best life. Two, three, I think around three years I was there. I had a ball.
But then I wanted to come to US. I had applied. No. I think a company from here, they had come there, come there to Singapore, and they interviewed people, and I was one of the few people that they selected, so I was supposed to come to US, I think in 1999. So, at that time what happened was, I had to have a, I had a conflict with my consulting company. So, they used to take passports from the people who worked there because they didn’t want us to go there because the market was so hard to get a job. I wanted to do my Master’s in Australia so they needed my passports. So, these guys did not give me passport and I was very upset with these guys, the company that gave me the job. So, I said I need my passport in order to apply for the Australian college because I got admitted and everything.
So, they didn’t give and I was really rallying of the people saying this is not acceptable, why do they have to get the passport and I even went to the embassy. So this guy, the guy who owned the company, it was at least a ten or twenty-million dollar company. The CEO of the company and we got into a big argument, right? Because he would not give me my passport. I said, “You should not only give me my passport, you should give the passport of everybody,” and was organizing over there, and he was so upset and pissed off, he actually– he said, “Okay, I will give you the passport. Come to the office.” So, then I came to the office. He had two or three Goondas. They picked me. They locked me in a room there. They didn’t beat me up. They locked me in a room. Then they sent somebody to my house, they packed all of my bags, brought it to the airport. So, this somehow when they were picking me and going, some of my friends saw that and they realized something was wrong. And since I didn’t come, my roommates and my friends and I was pretty popular in that group. Everybody knew me. So they told everyone, “Hey Manu is being taken by these guys from the company and they’re having some issues.” So after being held for almost one day there. One day they held me, morning to evening and then next day morning because my flight was in the morning.
[Editor’s Note: The word "gunda" or "goonda" can be traced back to the 20th century to Veer Gunda Dhur, an outspoken tribal leader from a community in Bastar, a district in the state of Chhattisgarh in Central India. In Hindi, the word "goonda" is used negatively to describe someone who creates unrest or chaos on society. Most notably, the "Goondas Act" was enacted in 1923 in Bengal to prevent repeat offenders by detaining them preventatively—that is, without trial. Legal experts and advocates interviewed by the New Indian Express confirm that the act was historically invoked against political dissenters or rebels like Veer Gunda Dhur who challenge the government. In more recent decades, it has been used to detain a wider range of suspected offenders including video piraters and traffic offenders. Since its initial passing in Bengal, the Goondas Act has been implemented in some form or another throughout India's states.]
No food. Nothing. It was an empty room. A locked room. And I couldn’t come out because I was locked and there were people outside. The goons were outside. Next day morning, morning or evening, they let me open the door, they let me out, and I was upset. I was like, what the heck is happening? They let me out, they take me directly from there to the airport. So, no cell phone, nothing at that time. It’s like 9 in the morning. They take me to the airport from the office.
[00:22:00]
They take me to the airport directly and they bring all my dress clothes and everything. When I go to the airport, there are sixty, seventy of my boys out there. They are like, “Dude, we know what they are doing to you, this is not acceptable.” Everyone is going to get a passport. So, I had some of my very close friends, very, very close, so they recorded my entire thing so I told them exactly what they did. And they recorded that I went to the Indian Embassy. So these guys, they ship me across, the same day that they took me from Singapore they sent me to India.
But I already had a huge offer. I had a job in the US, so when they got me the passport I was like, thank you, good, I’m out. But what my friends and this group did, they had this company blacklisted from India so we brought a twenty million dollar company down. That was my last episode in Singapore, right, so I came out of Singapore, but obviously I was not impacted in any way because I already had a job offer from the US. Instead of flying from Singapore to the US, I went to India, stayed there for like a month, then came to the US from India.
And US was interesting, right? US, I came to the US in 1999. I think it was October/November timeframe. And I had not been used to cold weather. So, when I came, everybody had scared me and said, “Oh, it’s going to be very cold.” So, I bought this jacket and I still remember the first day I landed. So the company that hired me here was a pretty good company so they had a limo come pick me up from JFK. They brought me to the, at that time it was called Weston, not Weston, at that time it was actually I cannot remember the name– Wellesley, it was Wellesly in Edison on Route 1. They brought me in there and left me there, and I had this jacket and it was like a Eskimo jacket, it was a huge jacket. I didn’t know. I had no sense of fashion when it came to jacket at that time because you come from India you get the thickest jacket. The idea was that the thicker the jacket is the better protection, which is true, but, so I was dropped off at Wellesley, I had this jacket on. I was walking towards checking in, so I checked in and I was at the elevator, they came down, there were like four blonde girls who just opened the door and I’m here with this jacket and they were like, “Whoa!” [laughter] I still remember that, and then– so I went inside and I was hungry so I went, at that time I think it was a McDonalds that was opposite real estate so went there. Got my first burger there and I ate it and I felt that I was a piece of garbage because there was no freaking taste. Until then I had always had food that had, that was savory, right?
Burger if you eat it, it has bland taste, right? Burger, patty, and there is no spice. There is no what do you call it? Salt or sweet. There is no taste in the burgers. I was like what the heck is this? But these things are very vivid to my memory. I actually, uh–
[00:25:54]
[End of Recording Four]
TRANSCRIPT 2
Interview conducted by Dan Swern
Parsippany, New Jersey
January 13, 2023
Transcription by Allison Baldwin
0:00
So, as I was saying in our last discussion, so far I made the trip to the US in 1999, and it was winter, and I had this big coat on myself, and I was getting out of the elevator in the hotel and going to McDonalds. And as I was saying, I remember that scene where there were a few girls outside, standing outside the elevator waiting to get into the elevator, I was going out and the first reaction was like whoa because I had an eskimo jacket at the time. I was not chic. At the time. And I still felt cold. And I actually walked out of the elevator, walked across the street looking like an eskimo, going into the McDonalds and ordering a burger. But until then I had always eaten some spicy, flavorful food. McDonalds burger was [unclear] or so. It was so bland I thought I was eating some wood. And then, I was starving so chomped that down and then I walked back and that’s how I got started with my life in the US.
1:27
And at that time– I remember this time too. This was the Y2K period and, uh, I don’t know if you remember Y2K. Y2K was when there was a lot of anxiety around people, the systems going down because the last two digits of the systems would all break and people thought all hell was going to break loose. So all of these systems were updated. So, they were getting all of these people in the IT space to come and fix the problems. So that happened. So I came in 1999 to help with some of those issues. But, unfortunately, so when I was in Singapore this company came to pick me up from there, and what happened at that time was, for the first month I didn’t have– they were not able to place me with any client yet, for the month of October. October or November. I was still what they call on the bench. I was still looking for [unclear] so I was in the hotel making friends randomly and without money, and then I got a license because I wanted to drive so I–
[Editor’s Note: Y2K is an acronym for the year 2000. Before 2000, computer coders recorded the year with 2 digits instead of 4 to reduce the amount of computer memory being used. Early in the 1990s, computer programmers anticipated that computer systems may not be able to properly register the year 2000 correctly, leading to issues across industries who had come to rely on computers. In 1998, preparations to update software and hardware systems were in full swing. In the United States alone, large businesses spent around $100 billion to correct any potential bugs. The people who led these efforts felt a sense of preparedness and calm once the year 2000 came. Public awareness of the potential issue in the United States was just peaking at the time. Most individuals were not comforted by the fact that experts had already been working on correcting computer systems for some time. Americans across the country stocked up on essential items in anticipation of the Y2K bug.]
So I was not a driver back in 1998. I had not driven a lot in India. So, when I came here and was driving for the first time– this is very clear in my mind. I stayed in a place called Wellesley. Now it’s not called Wellesley. Now it is actually called Quality Inn, and that place from the– because Route 1 is right there, and from the hotel to Route 1 it is a pretty deep dip, so I had somehow convinced my company to rent me a car. And I would be the driver for the car. The thing with me is I am very adventuristic and I want to do stuff and I wanted to take the thing, right. So in my group of people who were there in the hotel at that time who was working at the company, were not old enough to say that I can drive. So, even though I had never driven, I said that I could drive. And so they gave me the car, so I became the one driver for the entire group. So they gave me the car and I was supposed to go to the office, the local office, the next day, so I thought okay, I will drive by the evening. So, I took the car out, pretty easy, there was no stick shift so I sat in the car, started the car, and I started to go through the hotel just before it had gone into the road, it was a steep– I had not closed the door properly. The door opened up. And I had come into Route 1. There was a traffic lane before that, so there were no cars before that. As soon as I got into the road, my door opened and I was like what the heck? And I was like, what do I do? Close the door or hold my handle?
Suddenly I saw there were hundreds of people who had come from behind, fast, because the light had just turned green. I was so crazy scared at that time, but somehow I got into the thing and I drove. I drove for like an hour, by myself, and got the confidence in. So that was able to drive, to be that person.
That thing that I mention now, it’s important because—and I tell this to my kids—I want a thing and even though I have not done that, I just jump and say yes, I will do it.
5:02
I don’t say, “Oh, I don’t have enough training on that,” or, “I don’t know if I will be successful or not.” I just do it. I just jump in and do it. And that aspect has happened for all of my life, right? Whether it is driving here, or doing a job here with a company. If there’s an opportunity and nobody is doing it, I’ll do it. And that has been a key driver for my success, I would think. That risk-taking mentality. I think if you don’t take risks, you probably won’t get very far. And I tell this to my kids all the time. You can be successful only if you are able to take that risk, right? And when I joined, when I came to the US, I was paid around 40-45 thousand dollars, but because of that change now, I am closer to about seven times what that is, that amount, so close to $300 thousand is what I am making. So, the point I am trying to say is that it is the ability to take that risk that you are able to grow ahead in life. Otherwise– I’m not comparing in monetary terms at all, but some of my peers who were there longer than me at that time, I have some friends who I am still friends with them, they are getting half of what I am making now, not because of skill, they are much more skilled than me, much more talented, much more smarter than me. It is just the risk, the ability to take the risk and not sit back and think, okay, I won’t be able to get it done. I don’t see any other difference, because if you compare skill wise or intelligence wise or I think they are all, but they are making less than half of me, so that’s– I digress.
So, that happened and I got my first job. My first job was at Reader’s Digest in upstate New York. Beautiful place. Beautiful, beautiful place. I don’t know if you have ever been to upstate New York or not. The road was called Saw Mill Parkway. It used to wind like a snake. Such nice views. And driving was a difficult thing, especially in winter because the roads are slippery and that road is a very, very dangerous road. But this office was out of the world. It was so pretty. It was on multi-acre land, it was sitting on top of a hill. Going into the office itself was like going into a museum. And the outside was all parks, apple trees. Reader's Digest was, for a person that came from India, and then to go and work in a place like that, I was blown away.
[Editor’s Note: In 1922, DeWitt Wallace and his wife Lila Acheson created and released the first publication of Reader's Digest. The magazine has since survived two different filings for bankruptcy in 2009 and 2013 and has enjoyed periods of growth and decline. Despite the difficulties, the magazine once reached over 17 million people with 49 foreign editions in 19 languages in 1984.]
8:00
It was very intimidating, but exciting. Every day I wanted to go to the office because I could work for sometime and then go out, go to the park, go into the apple orchards, right? It was a beautiful time. So, there I worked for one year, or one and a half years, so then, I had a friend there, girlfriend you could call it, a Filipina, we became really good friends. Very, very close friends. She was like my girlfriend. Because I didn’t have too many Indian friends at that time, so [unclear] that went on for some time and then finally we kind of moved on because she had different aspirations, I had different aspirations. And after some time I decided to get married, and one of the reasons I had to get married in a rush was because of the Green Card.
When you get a Green Card, if you don’t have your spouse along with that, it is much more difficult to get. If you’re a citizen than your spouse can get it. At that time, there was a requirement that your spouse has to be a part of the Green Card application otherwise you will not get it. So, that was one of the drivers for me to get married quickly, in a rush. But then I kind of liked my wife, we had the weddings in India, and fell in love with her, and we kind of dated each other remotely, me here and she there. For almost six months and, uh, I still date her. I remember some of those incidents and so it was a semi-arranged marriage, so I told her that if she doesn’t feel that she is in love with me, let’s not go through with it.
10:00
Initially I told her, and then I told her, let’s do this for six months and then after six months, if you think you are not in love, let’s not do it. So after the third month she said, “Oh, I’m crazy about you,” so good. So, that’s how that, I mean there are a lot of nuances under that but I will just leave it like that.
So, going ahead, so I got married. Again, all of my life is interesting, a lot of interesting episodes. Another episode is, so I got married to her on February 3rd, and before I went there I was– I was supposed to get a new project, to get promoted as a lead. When I called from India at that time about confirmation for the new project they said, “Oh yeah you are hired for the new project.” I came here with my wife and was supposed to start my new job on the 25th of February, and I landed here on the 22nd, and again this is something that is sticking with me. Very clearly.
I open the door. No, I had gotten a call on the morning of the day I was supposed to go to work. I had gotten up early and my wife was up. She was getting ready and she was waiting with me, husband getting ready for work, first time. I get a call and they say, “Unfortunately the project has been canceled, and since the project has been canceled you aren’t our employee,” and I’m like, “What?” Really? And I think that was because the whole economy was going down. I think that was 2002 or so, or 2002 or 3, 2003. There was a dip in the economy and people were losing jobs, and this was one of the reasons that I didn’t– so they fired me right on the spot. In 2003. And I was really surprised and shocked because I am really high performing and that was really a hit on me. But more so because I had just gotten married. I brought this new bride into my house and my life and yet here I am losing this job. And she was feeling that I was losing the job because of her. That mentality, and I was like what are you even thinking and so I was even more upset so I called my dad, and I still remember the discussion so as soon as the recruiter told me hey you didn’t get the project you have two weeks notice, I was upset because–
One, I was ready to go to the office mentally, and my wife had just made some food and all, and then I called my dad, and that’s probably one of the few times I cried. I was really upset and he was like, “Don’t worry about it, man, you can come home,” but I was adamant. But then I actually stayed back and it was the time when not too many people were getting jobs. And within 2-3 months, two months I didn’t have a job but the good thing in that perspective. It was me and my wife, newly married, twenty-four hours, no job, what else can you do? So, we were having a lot of fun for the two months, and then I finally got a job at UPS in Morristown, here in New Jersey. I came here and settled more formally down in this Parsippany area, more modest town and I was working at UPS in the IT space for almost two to three years and then decided to get on to Accenture, but I love this environment, love this area, Morris Plains, Parsippany, bought my first house. I love this area so I decided to stay back here. Accenture was a consulting company, was a very nice company to work for, love it. So it has been growth all through. In terms of career. But in terms of excitement, instances that I can remember, UPS. Again, same thing, right? I do remember a conversation with my boss.
14:00
In UPS and I told him that I am thinking of joining Accenture and he was like, “Are you crazy, dude, why would you want to move away from UPS? You are so settled. You are so comfortable. UPS never fires people, at that time at least. Why would you want to move?”And I was like, “I want to do something else.” And he was like, “Why are you hurting yourself?” I’m like, “No, I don’t want to get comfortable.” The moment you get comfortable, that’s when you don’t grow, so you always have to be trying something different and feeling a little bit of pressure all the time. If you don’t have that, you’ll never, and I tell the same thing to the kids too. Never get comfortable or cozy in your role or position. If you do, you are never going to see success or go places. So, I took a risk. Again, it’s a risk, at the end of the day to join Accenture. That was a phenomenal position because that’s where it changed. I was there for about six or seven years, and then I decided to go into an industry company, JP Morgan Chase, in Delaware, and that’s another clear experience. I was VP there for almost ten years.
And then, I don’t know how much of this will relate to you, but I was in an application development space for one year in IT. I wanted to move to a completely different area in the spirit of taking risks and all that. I moved into a cyber security space. It was a completely upcoming area and I felt that that was a needed move for me at that time, but for a couple of reasons. JP Morgan Chase, as I said, I had been working there for almost six years and getting very, very comfortable there. Suddenly there was a health issue for me. I don’t know what happened. I had a severe back problem. So, what happened was, I went to multiple doctors to try to figure out what it is so they did a couple of MRIs, [unclear] so no problems. Every doctor and radiologist was saying, “Hey, your spine looks fine. There’s no real issues.” Then, I was getting upset with one of the doctors who, I was like, “What the hell? How could you say there is no problem?” I was in severe pain, really struggling, so he looks at the MRI again, he looks at it again, and he says your spine looks fine but your kidney looks irregular shaped so you might want to go get it checked. So, I go get it checked and my PCP was like, “Let’s just do an MRI on it and let’s see what happens.” We do an MRI and it looks like there is a tennis ball-sized tumor on my kidney. It’s a cancerous tumor. So, I was stage two cancer. So, I accidentally found out that I had a tumor. I was at JP Morgan Chase at the time. Accident find. And I was actually immediately admitted and they did the surgery there. They removed the top portion of the kidney and the cancer out of my body.
17:05
So, everything happens and I was out of office and on disability for almost four months. So it was that and I was thinking, sitting and thinking over the four months that I wanted to study something new and go into a new field, and so I looked around at what are the new fields that are available, and one of the fields that was available was cyber security and I thought that was the one that had a lot of need in the market and had a lot of [unclear] too, so I actually kind of did this training for myself, joined a new company, a brand new start up. The start-up was, I knew the senior VP in that company and they said okay we will hire you. Even though you don’t know cyber security we will hire you and train you and all of that so I took the risk.
That was a big risk because, one, that was a start-up, a small company around thirty or forty people, but then, but they had a good product and so I took– I came in as a VP of JP Morgan Chase getting a good salary, everything was good. I resigned and then I decided, screw it. I was going to start something completely new, so I joined a company from JP Morgan Chase to a company that had two hundred people or something like that. And it was a big shift right. So, when I was at JP Morgan Chase I had this room and all of that thing to go with Securonics and don’t remember the first day. I was walking in and there was this nice person with attitude, he was introducing me to the team, so he came down and picked me up and took me to the office. And when I entered the office there was just one big hall, no furniture. So, I’m like where do I sit and he was like, you can sit anywhere.
Because that was a very humbling experience for me too, right, because coming from JP Morgan Chase I was Senior VP. I had a team. I had a team of about fifty or sixty people. I had power. Here you were just one of the guys, but the challenge is that I was hired as a director so they expected a lot. The company said, “Okay this is the guy who comes from JP Morgan Chase, he knows a lot of things.” I really did not know. I didn’t know a lot of specifics in this business, it was my first time. So, I struggled a lot there, actually I was under a lot of stress and studying at the age of 40 plus is a difficult thing because cognitively you’re not there, right? Because you are competing with really young kids who just got out of college. They understand things so quickly. While people like myself, a lot of things just go over my head at that time.
20:00
That was a lot of stress, mainly because the company is a small company, right, so and I am the director there, so when I joined they kind of expected me to own that discussion with the client. For me to own the discussion with the client I need to know the product and the industry and everything very well. Because all the clients are big shot clients like Bloomberg. So, they would actually go to see someone like Bloomberg and I would have to speak about security and the product and I would not be prepared and it was tremendously stressful. It was so stressful that I, and some of the working hours were crazy because small companies, right? They just make you, great people, very nice people to work with, but the expectation is that you are always available and sometimes someone calls you in the night because there are international people working all over the place, right, so it was stressful and I started to have episodes of forgetfulness and brain fog and that type of thing, right. Sometimes– and so how I figured this out we were in a meeting with Bloomberg at a hundred days and before the meeting went to this client, I told my team, “Hey guys, we will not be doing business this way, we need to do these things, and we will be talking about all these things and all.” And so I went to the meeting, and in the meeting I obviously– I had agreed to a lot of things that we should have not. I never thought about it that way.
So, then I came out and I told the team and the team was like, “Manu, you told us when you went there, you told us not to do things, but it looks like you changed your mind when you were there.” I said “No, I didn’t change my mind. I never even spoke to you.” The thing was, I didn’t even remember the initial discussion with this team happened at all, it wasn’t even there in my brain. So, I’m like what are you guys talking about? When did we talk? What did we talk about? So when, but multiple people corroborated it and it happened and I spoke to them so then I had to go see a doctor so I went to see a doctor.
And the doctor said, dude your brain, they did a brain MRI and everything and they said your brain is under a lot of stress. There were a lot of white particles visible and you should actually change jobs. And I was like, okay, so what happened was from there, there was [unintelligible] company who had part time work. I went to one of the meetings and he liked me and he spoke to the CEO of PWC and said, “Hey, I would like to hire this guy.” If you guys are okay with it and grow the business of Securonics in PWC, so and to grow PWC so that’s how I joined PWC. And beyond that I think I wanted better insurance and all because I wasn’t getting good life insurance outside because of the cancer. So, all in all, joined PWC, been with PWC since 2018, and I truly love the company, one of the best places to work, they truly take care of their employees and I have been growing steadily there.
23:00
On a life front, I like to be handy. I like to do things myself. I am in the process of remodeling my basement. I remodeled the house. I built the trellis myself and I grew grapes there, and the grapes from my house is how I made the wine. So, I made some wine and I shared with a friend, a few of them. They all got knocked off just drinking the wine because it is very high alcohol content. You see how you regulate the alcohol with the wine is by diluting the sugar. I actually put a very high sugar, unknowingly, first time, right, the wine is tasty and good, but it was a little high alcohol, so one glass of wine would make you sleep. So, I fermented it a little bit more so wine is good, that’s the wine side.
I built a swing in the backyard. Which one side is a tree and the other side, we made a big hole, had to cut the other side. I brought the tree along with some of my friends and put it in that hole there and made a beautiful swing. So, that I can share with you too, if you want to see a picture of that. And then he built a cricket pitch in the backyard. You know I am pretty active and try to be handy and– and, you know, life goes on like this. I have had a few near-death experiences.
Yeah, that’s interesting, I might want to share. So, one was when I was in, uh, Reader’s Digest at Saw Mill Parkway. There was this incident that happened where I think it was Friday evening, work done, and I was getting ready to go back and I was coming up the hill into Saw Mill, so there is this particular traffic light that stops until you get onto Saw Mill Parkway, got down there, and I saw this nice, hot chick that was sitting in the next lefthand car and I was like, “Ooohhh, that’s a good looking woman, that’s a good looking car, a good looking car and a good looking driver, right?” And she had looked at me and I had obviously just bought this Grand Cherokee Jeep. Not a new Jeep, it was a used Jeep, but still I hadn’t gotten used to the steering. So, I think she was actually driving a sports car, so I’m revving the engine just to get on to Saw Mill Parkway, so as soon as it turned green I just started to make a left and then she made a left and we both were racing. And then somehow I was able to take off and then it was a top of a hill As soon as I got to the top of the hill, I looked up and there was only two lanes and my lane there was a car parked so I slammed to the left and this lady was just zipping through, so I could not make a left so I made a right turn and because I was not familiar with the car—there was very easy power steering—it just turned too much. There was big rock there and I hit the rock there and the car tumbled three times taking me to the bottom of the hill.
And I still remember, obviously I was unconscious but I was, when consciousness came, there were a lot of lights at my back and there was nice, slow Indian music playing. I was upside down and I could hear it and it was snowing. So, I thought, okay, I am done, I’m dead. I’m in heaven. There’s music playing. There’s lights. It’s all done. But I was laying upside down and then suddenly there was a knock on the door.
27:00
And they cut the belt and pulled me out and-
I saw the picture of the car, the Jeep. The top portion of the Jeep was all flattened. So, that was one episode. The other episode is putting the swing, which I was talking about earlier. Me and my friends are putting this big log into the hole, right, so as I said there were two holes for the swing. One was a tree. The other one was, had to be a tree or something to hold it so there was a tree that we cut nearby, almost two feet by two feet in diameter, and then so me and like around five or six of my friends brought it here and pulled it close but then the barbed wire was like–
The hole was around four feet deep and it’s a concrete hole. So, I actually brought the tree and then I pulled it up. Me and my friends pushed it up. But the problem was, because of the slope it was only going so far. I had to move it another one to two feet up for it to fall into the hole. Do you know what I am saying? Because it has to go like this? It has to go like this into the hole to fall down, right? So I had to go here and go like this and if the hole is here than it’s stuck here, so now I said, “Okay, guys, let me just push it.” So I climbed on top of a small log there, and so as I pushed it came off the hands off all of my friends so I was the only one holding it on my neck. On the back of the neck. As soon as that happened all of my friends hands came off and I was the only one holding it. I couldn’t hold it. It was coming down on my neck. I was coming down like this. I don’t know what happened. Somehow I pushed it over my head. It just went over my head and right in front of me.
The funny thing is I have a video recording of this. My wife was recording the whole thing. So that was really, really [unintelligible], these two incidents and the third one was what happened the last time we went on a cruise. I was going almost 200 meters into the sea, there was sandbar, I would think, but, uh, from the shore to the sandbar is 200 meters and it probably has ten to twenty feet deep depth. So, I am a decent swimmer. I am not a, I am a decent swimmer, so I actually swam one way to the end because all of the teens were there. The only older guy was me I was still smart enough to stand on the shore or nearby so the teens were like, “Lt’s go back,” so I said, “Okay, you guys, go I will come.” So, they all raced back and I started back and as soon as I started back, around ten to twenty feet in I started to get back spasms. I could not move.
30:00
And then I tried to get over it for almost five, ten minutes, I couldn’t move. I was almost going down. I yelled for help and luckily one of the teens who was there he swam and helped me. He literally saved my life, right? So, otherwise nobody noticed. The funny thing is all these people were around and nobody noticed anything. They all think he is going to be okay, but I was really struggling. Nobody noticed, so that was the third one and the cancer was another find, right? So, I am telling you, I have had multiple episodes where I have been gone, but, hey, here I am.
And, again, continuing my personal and professional life. I am very happy with my life so far. Taking life as it comes. And I am very active in sports, so I play cricket here. My skills have gone down tremendously. Also, my back hasn’t been helping me.
Now, talking about this environment in Parsippany. Parsippany is– we are all trying to make a cricket pitch here, a ground. We have spoken to the mayor and are trying to kind of work with them because there is a sizable population here. I was talking to the mayor the other day and he was saying that 25-28% of the people in Parsippany are Indians and Asians. Asians being Southeast Asians like Pakistanis. So, there is a sizable amount of [unintelligible] so why not have something that provides in terms of all the locals in terms of cricket or anything else, so that’s a discussion we are having and that’s on track.
But overall, I would say my journey from India to here so far, I am almost 49 years old, has been fantastic. As an immigrant I couldn’t have been in a better position and even in Parsippany, in this lovely little town, right? All good things.
32:00
Is there anything specific you would want to know about these episodes and stories or what?
Well, you just mentioned you had conversations with the mayor. Can you talk a little bit about your civic or social engagement in the community?
Yeah, so I wouldn’t claim that I have a very high civic engagement that I am involved in. The conversation I had with the mayor was in line with building a cricket ground in Parsippany. Because of the population and everything. Obviously I don’t work for this mayor. Other than that I don’t have, but I would love to participate and to be involved a little bit more, once I have a bit more time I am thinking of getting involved in some aspect of it. But at this moment, I am swamped in stuff and don’t think I could spend enough– I wouldn’t do justice to that if I started now.
Do you want to talk a little bit about your family?
Oh, yeah, of course. I talked about everything else. Me, me, me and now I’ll do my family. Yeah, in terms of the family, as I said, I am blessed with three kids and a dog, and my eldest daughter she is doing her pre-med at Rutgers. She is in her second year. She’s doing fantastic. And the second one is a high schooler. She is in her teens. She is in the IT space. I was able to get her, talk her into doing the IT work in the IT space. And the third one he is [phone rings]. He’s, I would say, he is an upcoming sportsman. He has good hand eye coordination, good reflexes and I am hoping he can actually do something that will make my retirement plan easy.
Last week, I think a few weeks back, he was playing soccer and he scored like seven goals, so, seven goals, so he’s already excited about it, so we are really excited about it. Ladoo is the name of the dog. An Indian sweet. We were thinking of naming the dog and I had not heard of a dog named Ladoo? And I was thinking there are a lot of dogs named cookies and brownies, and this guy when he came he was looking like an Indian sweet so we just started calling him Ladoo and it stuck so now it’s a very powerful, but yeah. And my wife, obviously, we have been married for almost twenty-two, twenty-one years and she has been great and wonderful and I love her like crazy. I mean, we are a very happy, wholesome family I would think. Great friends. Have a very tight circle of friends. All in Parsippany. And sometimes we go on a cruise together. We had a great experience going on a cruise in Alaska a couple of years back. I mean, all of them are really well settled and established. They all have kids who are of a similar age to my kids so we get along very well. We meet once in a while, And I think even this neighborhood, this neighborhood is amazing. One thing is, there are no small kids to play directly with my kids but all the neighbors, this is a great place. I have not faced a single time. I haven’t faced any type of discrimination in Parsippany so I am just proud and happy to be part of this community. Yeah, I don’t think I can say anything more.
Well, where did you find your community in Parsippany? How did you make friends? Was it through the schools, through religious houses of worship? How did you–
Yeah, so one thing I am not, I am not that religious, so I don’t get many friends from religious circles. Not only that, I am a Hindu. So, Hinduism is where there is no standard time where you go to a church or a mosque where you and meet and congregate. Here you go whenever you want. You go to prayer or you don’t go to prayer. Nobody cares. So, I am not that religious so I don’t have that many friends from there. But I think most of the friends I have, as I said, has been because my kids have friends, their parents became friends and they introduced us to other friends. So, that’s how the circle grew here. Work is also part of it, because when I was working in Morristown at UPS, that’s where I made a lot of friends so they stuck. Some of the friends even from Reader’s Digest. The guy I talked about who saved me from dying and drowning, his father and I used to work twenty years back in New York, so we had a close relationship and I think, see the thing is, with immigrants is that your friends become your family. You end up, uh, the beauty of, uh, friendship is they’re the family you choose. You can choose your friends. And the people who are along with you for like twenty years, they are much closer to you then the family. Like brothers and sisters. So, as I said, I think we have a pretty tight group. We have a lot of parties in the house because our backyard is built for parties so [computer sounds] and some of the friends are also because I play. I play cricket, so I also have some cricket friends too. Neighbors, too. Wonderful neighbors.
38:00
Is there anything culturally, from India, that you are trying to instill in your children that carries through?
So– so there is a thing, a saying in America that Indians who come, or who have migrated here or maybe that they are ABCD. Have you heard of the term ABCD? ABCD is American Born Confused Desi. Desi like [laughter] so I try to avoid instilling too much culture into them because they are already having a lot of this and I don’t want to confuse them too much. But still there are some basic principles and norms we want to stick too, right? And those ones, we do, but culturally or spiritually I have not influenced my kids at all and my wife also has not. Because I think that’s kind of for them to pick up, right? As they grow. And if we say something, along the cultural aspect, from India, and ram it onto the kids here, I personally think it will confuse them more as they grow. Because they are going to be Americans, they are going to live here. They should actually follow that culture. Right? They can absolutely learn and understand about their heritage, where they come from, and they should, and be proud of it. But I think when you are in the US or any place, you live within the norms and the culture and the lifestyle as long as it's within moral grounds. The morality is what should not be compromised. It should be based on the principles of which you have been brought up and I don’t think that changes ever. Whether you are an Italian family, or an Asian family, Chinese family, or a Muslim family. Wherever you come from, they all have a different style of operation, but I don’t think anybody would want their child to be compromising moral. Except for the moral aspect, I think they should be and learn their culture because they are going to be, they are US citizens. They are going to establish themselves here and I am not going to stop them from giving that freedom by forcing them to live a certain way. Based on what their grandparents or may parents have told me.
[Editor’s Note: American Born Confused Desi (ABCD) originated as a term to describe the children of Indian Immigrants who arrived in the United States in the '70s. It is used to describe the difficulty of reconciling conflicting Indian and American cultural values. Younger generations are re-claiming the term as a source of pride in an attempt to embrace being in-between and part of multiple cultures.]
40:40
What do you envision is the next twenty years? Looking at your life, you said it’s been very good. What do you hope happens?
Yeah, so if I am able to avoid all of these near-death experiences to be alive in the next twenty years, because as I said, I am a risk taker. I am a bit dangerous in that way, so if I am. Actually I do see it this way, I do feel that I am very blessed. I have a very good family. I have a very good set of friends. I have– I am financially and otherwise, very comfortable. I want to continue that, at least for the next five to ten years.
But actually, at my core I have an entrepreneurial mindset. I want to start a company of my own. When I was younger I wanted to do that, but it never happened because of [unclear] so if I could start a company and be part of an enterprise that would be good. I am already talking to a few people. Have a partner and companies.
But more importantly, I want to retire around 60, 65 so that I can enjoy my life a little bit more than what I am doing now and be really, but yeah, and also another aspect is I kind of want to take care of my parents who are back in India. They are getting older now so I want to be able to go there and come back on a regular basis. So, I am trying to see ways that I can do that on a regular basis, and once my kids are out of the house, my plan is to kind of, during the winter here, at least in India, spend at least three to four months. Take a small job there, not a job per se, but something that has more free feeling, like teaching. Bringing kids up. Because the resources and exposure and experience I have gained in my life here would be really good for kids there who are just coming up. I am looking forward to giving more in the upcoming years than just getting more. I think I have been very blessed as I said.
I would love to participate in social activities here in the town and also back in India, so that is my focus. But I also want to settle down a lot of other things like my kids and make sure they are set for life and then slowly move into more philanthropic duties. In time. In the next several years, if I am able to, but you never know what will happen in life. I hope that answers your question.
43:20
Any last things you want to leave us with?
No, I mean, as I said in life, anyone who has already listened this knows, it may sound cliché but if you don’t take a chance or a risk, you will– your chances to succeed in life is very, very less. As I said earlier, I am pretty average in terms of a lot of things, but the criteria for my success has been predominantly because I took chances. Whether it was in college or a job. Immigrating from India, coming here, meeting people, changing jobs. All of it is a risk, all of that is a risk, and if you think about it, if you don’t take that call, take that call out of your comfort zone, to take a risk, it will be very, very difficult for you to grow.
Unless you are happy that way. If that makes you happy. So, at the crux of it, success is what makes you happy. It is not the money or any other material possession. It is actually what gives you that sense of fulfillment. And gives you that sense of confidence. It could just be having so many good friends and having that social circle and being or contributing to a cause. It could be any of those things. Whatever makes you happy, you should do.
For me, I think the constantly chasing my tail and the feelings of risk gives me happiness. In a weird way. I just, but yeah, [mumbling]. Thank you.
Thank you.
45:46
[End of Recording]